When I said I've just got home from a long, stressful day at
work, I opened the door to see my partner standing there naked
and smiling. What part of that situation did
each of you fixate on the most? Well, hard day of work.
My partner was naked. Every.
Every time. Hey guys, welcome back to
another episode of Honey. We Need to Chat.
So great to have you here, my wife.
Hello, Hello. My name is Amy and this is Blair
and we're Honey. We need to chat.
We are we. We come here and we chat about
the honey. And Blair thought he'd be funny
and throw a little, a little piece of information out there
the second before. We started talking.
It didn't. Throw me.
But you know what? It didn't throw me.
Well, I've taken it in my stride.
Well, and no one is ever going to know except that I just told
them. Yeah.
Well, welcome back to Honey. We need to chat. 2.
Two season 2. Episode TWA.
Of Season 2, Of Season 2, Of Season 2.
In fact, I don't want us to keep track of episode 2 of season 2
because it's going to get really confusing because the numbering
system is different. So if you're listening, I.
Just wanted to say, I wanted to say Tua.
So I said Tua. Let's go.
So anyway, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today on
this episode. And who have we got today?
We are really excited about this episode.
This is our first guest episode in Season 2.
First International. And 1st.
International guest. Not only either, we have other
international guests coming up as well, but today we get to
speak with Bryce Logan, who is the Co founder and designer of a
game called Uncover Me by the company called Revive and we are
chatting to him today. Honestly, this conversation was
really fun. It was really engaging and
there's some really powerful moments of just wisdom and
insight into relationships that we're very excited to share with
you. So he's going to share with us
today about his experience, what's led him into designing
this game and what I guess the purpose behind that is, which is
really cool. A little disclaimer, I guess we
were gifted uncover me last year as because we're a relationship
podcast and it was very generous.
We found out later, I mean it's generous regardless, but it was
extremely generous because I don't think they realised we
were in Australia and they ended up shipping it to us for
something like 60. Bucks or something?
Ridiculous amount of money, but yeah, he if you listen to the
episode you can hear a little bit more about where the game's
at. Unfortunately for our non North
American friends, the game is not as easily available on this
side of the world at this stage. But watch this space, listen to
the episode and follow. I would suggest following their
socials as well. Their socials follow our socials
because we'll be posting it as soon as it available to our
Aussie and New Zealand listeners and friends.
Yeah, I will make that very known to you for you because it
was such a great game. So as therapists and and game
designers coming together for fun and it really helps us just
help with conversations, but helps you to go into deeper
conversations or helped you to sort of have a think about the
other person, like really get your mind into that space, which
was good. It was really helpful.
It's a unique spin on couple games as well.
We've played a few and as he talks about in the episode,
there's quite kind of this like cookie cutter style to
relationship related board games.
This one is different. They've taken a different tactic
and it was really fun. So so have a listen.
Definitely. It's been specifically designed
to help people breakthrough kind of the surface level generalised
interactions they may be having in their relationship,
regardless of how long it's been.
And it's designed by psychologists to help people
build stronger relationships, not just for entertainment.
So follow along if you would like to check out their website.
It's not, I don't think it's impossible to get the game on
this side of the world. It's just probably a little more
complicated, but check out their website site for links.
You can go to playuncoverme.com and you can find their website.
You can also go to play Uncover Me on Instagram and we will tag
them in the posts that we make. There's an iOS version for
people again in North America and.
An Android version. And an Android version version,
Sorry, a phone version. Oh my gosh, a phone version.
A phone version is what I was trying to say.
Maybe there's that too. I don't know.
So I'm very jealous that they have that because I feel like
that would be, yeah. So definitely test that out,
yeah, if you're in that area. In that space, Yeah.
Awesome guys. Well, we really enjoyed this
conversation. It was very fun to stick around
and check it out. Bryce from Uncover Me.
See ya, honey. We need to chat.
Well, welcome back to Honey. We need a chat Today.
We have a really exciting guest. We're excited to introduce you
to Bryce Walken over from Canada.
I mean, is this our first international chat?
Yeah, it's our first, first. International chat hi go very
exciting welcome nice yeah Bryce is the founder and designer of
uncover me or revive to make uncover me and we're really
excited to hear a little bit about his journey and a little
bit about uncover me and all of those things that relate to
relationship communication communicator.
So thank you for joining us today, Bryce.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me from across the ocean
our. Pleasure.
Well, we'd love to just start maybe by just hearing a little
bit about yourself. What led you into the project of
Revive Uncover Me and and what you've learned I guess in the
process? That's a very big question, but
you can start where you feel most comfortable.
Yeah. So start with about me.
I'm writing this down. That was that was big.
So that is that was 3. Points.
We had about. Me, it was good job.
The journey. And then what was the last one
about? And what what I?
Learned what I learned I didn't some.
Small things just. Some small things, yeah, for
sure. So about me, so I'm 36, I live
in Canada. Yeah.
I mean my background is sort of like you in in marketing.
But over the last couple years I've really found a huge love of
product like problem solving at the core level.
I think that directly correlates to my hatred of social media and
how I just started getting too, too grumpy to play in the space
of the TikTok teens and there's only so many summer interns like
in hires. And that actually leads into the
the story of, of how we got here with with uncover me, which is
that I've actually worked with the same sort of boss on and off
for for 10 years. Boss slash investor.
But this, this gentleman that kind of gave me my first shot
professionally because I'm a, I'm a first year college
dropout, part of my, you know, ADHD being on the spectrum,
undiagnosed when I was in school.
So dropped out, did some work, tried to grind it out, and he
gave me a job 10 years ago. Last month was like our weird
anniversary. But yeah, so about four years
ago, I was working at a different agency.
He got a hold of me and said, hey, listen, like I've got this
idea and I think that you'd be really good at helping me market
it, which was more my role at the time.
And I, I jumped in because I actually really do love the
relationship space. Like it was, it's always been
interesting to me in, in, in some sense.
But his first idea was actually making these like bedroom role
play kits for couples who had dead bedrooms.
And initially I was like, cool, like I, I get the pitch.
And his idea as I started trying to go, OK, like, is this
actually a viable business from like a holistic standpoint was
like, OK, I don't think this is this this first approach is
entirely it. And that was kind of my first
taste of like doing like product of like at the core instead of
like starting with just marketing something.
How do we actually, like solve a real problem?
And so as I dove into that problem, we actually did make
like a, you know, a product to be called Naughty Night Switch.
The the aha ish moment for that came when I was playing D&D when
I was like, OK, so the thing about role playing is that it
gives you like permission, but you have to be encouraged if you
are shy about it. So that was kind of an aha.
So we made this product that was like these customised role
playing kits where people would submit their name and like their
gender or like a nickname. We would actually like print out
a package based on some like templates, send them stuff and
they would do this sort of like week long activity of like
slipping notes back and forth. And it was all designed to kind
of, if you were shy and maybe had something that you wanted to
talk about, it gave you like permission.
And I think that was the big learning was that when people
are given permission and encouragement to speak their
mind, it's just so much easier than a dead stop.
You know, like any encouragement to say, like, I'm asking you to
participate, you know, there is an external force telling you to
participate makes a lot easier to open up.
So what I you know, when I was working on that, I started
reading it. It was such a weird overlap.
My my ex at the time had started reading like Come as You Are by
Emily Nagoski, which my copy is signed.
No big deal, but I. I saw that.
Yeah, I I saw that. And and she's like, I think you
should listen to this. And much like everything in my
life, I was like, I don't need to do anything I don't want to
do. I'm just really resistant to any
change, but I started listening to Come as you are, like the
audiobook. And when I got to the two
sections that were most impactful for me was sort of
like the dual control model of like human desire responses and
then context. I just like had these aha
moments and I'd already been sort of realising that like,
listen, if you're trying to solve the problem of a dead
bedroom, like there's something underlying that's a problem.
Like you can't just be like, Hey, do sex different.
There's something underneath that like has to be sorted out,
right? And so that was an assumption
that we had to tackle. And so, you know, I said to like
my boss, you know, the, the founder of this, this company,
It was like, you know, I, I think that if your goal is to
solve this problem, because this is the space that really
interests him, I think we have to kind of go deeper and try to
figure out the core of the problem.
And I remember knowing that and then hearing these chapters in
come as you are. And I called my girlfriend at
the time and I like, remember where I was walking in the world
and I was like, do you know your contexts?
And she's like, of course I do. And I was like, why have I never
heard that term? And I started like talking to
other because I knew I was at a conference at the time here in
Calgary, actually where I live. And I started talking to people
and just like the gap in awareness in heteronormative
couples was like, women were clearly aware that like context
affected them, like what was going on.
And then men were like, like, I'm I'm just going to be funny.
Like men were like, boobies are cool.
And I like when they're, you know, like not, you know, we
can, there's outliers for everything, but like their
research, you know, in, in, in come as you are.
Emily Nagasio says there's like building research that like
women are generally more context sensitive as it comes to like,
you know, arousal and, you know, the, the slowing down of, of
desire. And so all of that led to me
going, okay, like how do I design something that takes sort
of all of these learnings of like, if people are playing,
they're more willing to share, but they need to be encouraged.
Also, the knowledge that I gained from a friend of mine
who's an incredible researcher showed up to Philip from
Ruthless Insights here. Like he, you know, he was
explaining to me. He's like open ended questions
destroy people's brains. Like sit at a table and and ask
your partner what makes you mad and watch their watch them
either just be like, I don't know nothing or you have to
search so long that it like exhausts them.
It's like being in a job interview and.
That question makes them mad in the end.
Well, right. Like it's not, it's not, it's
not fun and it's really hard in our brain.
So we we call it and you know, Philip called it like the job
interview problem is it's choice paralysis.
It's too open ended. And so when I was looking at
other card games like these, these relationship card games,
literally every single 1/2 to the point that you can now white
label them on Aliexpress. By the way, you can white label
a relationship. You guys can have one tomorrow,
it's $300.00. They'll put your faces on it and
they'll send it out pre made. They're all the same.
And it's all just these question cards you flip.
And it's one of two categories. And this may be very mad as a
product person. One is who was your favourite
teacher in school and why? I don't care.
I'm trying to live with you. I am trying to figure out why
you're mad that I mentioned an X from 10 years ago in a story.
I need to learn something about you.
I don't care about your third grade teacher.
So cute, though. And then the other is that is an
actual example from one of these card decks that I have in like
my area where I have all this like research stuff, which is
like, what makes you mad and how do you calm down when you're
mad? Who can answer that question?
Effectively. Nobody.
So based on that conversation with Philip, it was first like,
OK, we need to narrow this down to at least how people choose
from like a subset just to get the conversation started.
It's so easy to point to this thing and then say, I think this
is closest. And then the other thing that we
did that was interesting was as opposed to open ended questions,
it was like, let's put people in a hypothetical situation.
Our brains can imagine the situation right and visualise it
much better than we can like describe like broad emotional
States and like hypotheticals about ourselves.
So the end result after like a year and a half of testing was
uncover me which is you like flip over a situation.
One of my favourite examples is a card that says I just finished
a long and stressful day at work.
I open the door to see my partner standing there naked and
smiling. And, you know, the player then
picks, yeah, the player then picks on a spectrum of like,
hate this, dislike this, unaffected by this, like this
love this, chooses their like closest quote reaction and then
guesses the other players. And the point is that it's
imperfect. But when you pick like this or
dislike this, your brain is like, well, this is close, but
not close. And here's why.
And so that's the idea is it's it's getting to the context of
everything. And my favourite part of that
example almost on this rant is that people, when I asked them
in play testing there, there's a split and I'm actually
interested in you two. OK, so the card is I'm not going
to ask you about your reaction. But when I said I've just got
home from a long stressful day at work, I opened the door to
see my partner standing there naked and smiling.
What part of that situation did each of you fixate on the most?
Like what jumped out about that to you?
Long hard day at work. My partner was naked.
Every, every time, right. So even in yeah, even in the
ways that we, even the ways that we wrote the situation, it was
crazy to see that even that is like information.
So to me, the part that I've actually fixated on is I am
terrified of being perceived. I don't want to be perceived
when I'm like on stage performing or in a podcast, I
have a right to be there. The idea that I would be he
perceived like a bad neighbour because my partner was naked and
it upset somebody. That's actually the thing I
fixated on the most. Not like boobies are nice, not
my stress, but now you can see that like there's clearly one of
you might be slightly more biassed towards like stress
having an impact. And so that's the sort of pseudo
magic that all came together like really harmoniously from
very different smart people that weren't me.
I felt like the person just put pieces of other people's work
together and then kind of like made a game.
But yeah, that was the that was the story of of how we got
there. Very long form.
Yeah, that's awesome, man. Like, and you guys were so kind
enough to to send us a copy of that and we absolutely love
yeah, that game. And just like that's exactly
what you just did. Then was given that scenario of
how would you respond? But I love the part of like,
cool, this is how I would respond.
But then guessing his response was really fun.
It was really, really fun. And it gave me a whole other
insight to her thinking, because what it does is it's not even
just a matter of like, can you guess the right answer?
It puts you in the mind of the other person, which I think is
such a critical point in relationships and communication
in general. And we say there's quite a lot
in our in this podcast of trying to understand, trying to come
from their perspective to the situation.
This is what this game has been really helpful for us for.
And I had so much fun. It was a lot of fun, yeah.
I remember when we were sitting down with it, I was like a bit
confused. I wasn't really sure what to
expect. I don't know.
I don't think we've played relationship games before, but I
kind of feel like we have. So I'm not sure.
I got a vague memory of it. I kind of expected it to be that
generic thing that you described, like what was your
scariest memory or something? And then those things are like
interesting. But you're right, the open
endedness of it, especially when you're coming from a place
that's maybe not you're not in a great mood or you're not
necessarily connecting in a really constructive way.
It's really hard to just have a casual conversation about
something that's super over ended and and not come at it
from your defensiveness or not come at it with all the stuff
that you're carrying in your relationship and in life into
that conversation. So having it broken down so
easily. So simply some of the times I
was like, I wouldn't really respond either of these ways or
it's a mix of the two. But at least it's a conversation
that you're then having and something that's prompted
thought for yourself and then for your partner.
It's such an interesting way of laying it.
Out yeah, thank you. And it's actually you've touched
on my my only regret with uncover me is that I phrased in
the instructions one thing wrong and it lives with me to this
day, which is that we we now tell people there is no perfect
reaction choice. And that's perfect.
I also do have to get a shout out here because Blair pointed
out something really interesting.
And I fought against this Blair when I was doing the original
design. Originally you just guessed the
other persons and didn't compare.
And so Shaker, my mentor, you know, Co founder investor, was
like, I will not do this unless players can compare because
that's all anybody in play testing that I test with wants
to do. And I was like, fine.
And then every just every play test after that, it was just,
you know, I just got, I was like, well, I want to to keep it
as simple as possible, but it turns out the benefits like far
outweighed having ten extra cards to, you know, put on the
table. So, and and that's the type of
thing you learn when you're building a card game.
But yeah, the kind the kind words also.
Absolutely, man. So one thing I wanted to know as
well, like so all right, so you've, you've got this game.
I I think it's a great game. I think it's absolutely amazing
in terms of and very in line with what we're trying to do
here on the podcast. Encourage conversation, give
people tools to have those conversations and brings a
confidence to that conversation as well, which is which is
amazing. My question to you is why?
But why are you so passionate about this?
Because I can hear it in the way that you're talking, man,
because it gets me passionate. It actually makes me want to go
play this game. I'm like, yeah, because so I
love, I love these conversations.
So where does this drive from? Yeah, I think that people who
are passionate about making things can either come from an
angle of extreme competence or extreme incompetence and
curiosity, like you're curious when you're making products.
But for for me, it came from extreme incompetence.
Like I am somebody who my whole life, like just wanted to a
detrimental point, like to be like in love and in a
relationship. And, you know, like I was raised
in a household that was very sporadic.
It led to like a lot of trauma, which led to like a lot of
issues that needed to be sorted out.
I mean, I think I started therapy seriously like 8 years
ago. Like I was 28.
And I say to people like start because now I'm the guy that
people ask about therapy, like, should I do this?
And I'm like, you're 40, dude. You should have done it 10 years
ago. But yeah, start today, you know,
no more holes in the wall. So like I, but I, you know, I
say that like it wasn't until like six years into therapy, I
probably could have had my first healthy relationship.
And so I think that desire to have like love in my life and
knowing that I was like really anxiously attached and like
learning all of these things and like slowly moving from, you
know, like super anxious, insecure attachment, like closer
towards like the healthy centre and like moving from being
somebody who was like super reactionary and like a bad
partner that like meant so well. And, you know, Blair, before the
conversation we started and you said like, one of the things
you're passionate about is like, how did dads become better dads?
And I think that like there's this weird thing tied into
masculinity culture that's so toxic where it's like, no, don't
ask help. Like you're fine the way you
are. It's fine.
Like just be mad everyone like whatever it's it's terrible.
And so I had no role models for love.
I I really outside of my grandparents relationship, can't
think of anybody in my family who like stayed married.
And so I think it was just this thing where I liken it to, I was
a guitar teacher for three years when I was like 18.
It was kind of like my first job out of high school.
And the reason I was a good guitar teacher was because I was
a terrible guitarist. Like believe it or not.
So when you're working with like 8 year old kids, it didn't come
naturally to me, right? So as opposed to, you know, I
had friends that I played in bands with that like three years
in were like Inve mounts, you know, just like rocking jazz
solos. And I'm still like, maybe I can
get through a Green Day song without a mistake a little bit,
you know, and but in that sense, like I learned how like I really
had to struggle with it all. And so I think that the why do
this is because, you know, much like when people ask me for like
really simple marketing advice, so that's my background and I
can rattle it off in 5 minutes. It's like, well, what if I can
save somebody the first three years of therapy lessons just
by, you know, or like, what if all of this that now, you know,
with my partner saves ME3 fights and hurt feelings a week, Like
just what if that could be passed forward, I guess.
And like, what if we didn't? As one of my mentors now says,
he's a great man that I found is like, you know, you're going to
step on land mines. And so my whole life was like
land mines that I couldn't see. And like when they blew up my
leg, I was like, Nah, that's someone else's fault, not mine.
Now it's like, how can I just help people?
How do we help people see them in advance?
Because like as my therapist says, you know, after you know,
your job in some situations, like the person you choose for
partner will be either the greatest like source of stress
or like benefit in your life and not like that relationship.
So that's, I guess that's it like a weird love of products
and problem solving. And then, you know, having had
to go through all of this just to become something along the
lines of like a potentially healthy partner, I think that's
the why. You were talking about in the
first answer about how your ex had introduced you to that book.
And then you started to be like, what in your mind just like open
to these things and that that influenced the the designing of
the game. How did that start to influence
your approach to relationships as you started to explore these
different contexts and that sort of thing?
Yeah, I, I think that's a really good question.
I mean, I think that one of the more I shouldn't say
heartbreaking things, I think that one of the realities I've
come to terms with is I think that maybe had I learned all of
this stuff, maybe that could have been salvage.
But I also think that I, through my trauma responses, had just
chosen someone that wasn't a fit, like great person, but like
not a fit. So I think that one of the first
things that it did was help me see like, how do I ask better
questions or interact with people in ways that I can figure
out if they really are like a fit for me in terms of like
values, how we'd like work together, live together.
I think it made me, you know, understand that like things that
could scare me away weren't necessarily the end of the world
if I understood them more. And like a really funny example
of this is that I dated someone for almost a year and it was it
was a relatively like healthy, good relationship.
We just we were headed down different life paths.
So it's kind of part of ways amicably, but our first date we
played Uncover me because she wanted to.
I don't just bring it out. OK, I wasn't just like I had
mentioned it in passing. That's what I was working on.
So she asked to try and there was a there was a situation that
was about like, hey, like my partner is sick.
Like, you know, do I, you know, how do I feel about them, you
know, sleeping in a different room or whatever.
And she said to me, my ideal situation is that my partner and
I live in two different houses separated by a hallway where I
can lock the door from my side only.
I was like. Cool.
I like cuddling. Yeah, so, but the thing was, but
because we were playing in this modality, it actually led to
because if someones like say like dating profile said that, I
would just be like, no thanks. But the fact that we got to talk
about it more and more and what I learned was what she was
trying to communicate was that like personal space and like the
sanctity of her home is so important for her that it's like
a very possibly anxiety inducing situation to have somebody in
her home that makes it feel like an unsafe or cluttered or non
peaceful space. What's really crazy about that
is I entirely agree. Like I am so particular about my
home being like minimalist and I don't know if you guys just see
the, you can't see the colour of my walls.
Like every wall besides that one is like dark green to like keep
me calm. And so I think that what I
learned was that as opposed to just reacting to the first
thing, if we can ask like 1 clarifying question like one,
how much would that save us? And, you know, the other day I
was in a relatively, like, rough discussion with my girlfriend,
and I said something that was along the lines of like, hey, I
was thinking about something that I said yesterday, Bryce.
And I think that the way that I behaved, I'm not OK with that.
I'm sorry it happened to me. It felt like borderline, like,
echoes of, like, old abusive patterns.
And I'm sorry. I think it was just something
like, shutting down or like walking away too soon, you know,
like, thankfully we're not like, cruel to each other and like,
you know, physically or mentally or anything.
But I was just like, I want to hold myself to a higher
standard. And she got like, really quiet.
And I was like, oh, I guess my apology wasn't good enough.
And she was like, you know, maybe I should go.
And I was like, OK. And she was good enough to ask a
clarifying question where she was like, I just want to know
why you thought that I was behaving in an abusive way.
I'm sorry that you felt like that about me.
And I was like, no, like I was trying to own this dog.
Like, I'm trying to take responsibility.
And so she was like, that's so different, you know, like our
right. And I think that just sometimes
we just don't ask the follow up question, even words like what
does a word mean to you? The word, you know, patient
means one thing to someone. So anyhow, I think that was a
big learning. You see that all the time,
especially in chick flicks, because it's where relationships
play out most all the time. The only reason that there's
even a movie is because someone's done something that
they just don't clarify or they just.
Don't ask for that, I know. That's not they just don't ask
like they'll see someone hugging someone and instead of being
like it was. That.
It's like we are done. I knew you were about.
Seriously, That's like constant. The reason I don't like.
Netflix. Is because of that.
And obviously that's. The reason real life, like
that's not how most people will ask to some extent, but I think
you're so right that there's like there's just there's so
many things that play out and there's so many stories that
happen and we're working with so many things at the same time
that it's really easy to misunderstand and it's really
easy to put a story over something that's not accurate.
And even your story of of your first date when that response
was just so different to what most people would probably
respond with. It's interesting that like you
could have started dating, never have had had that game, never
have had that question, never have heard her say those words.
And she could have been responding and playing out of
this, whatever it is that plays into that for her, this anxiety
or this idea of what she wants her relationships.
And that could have been playing out and how she entered the
relationship. And then you would be playing
out how you're observing her in the relationship and never have
had that conversation. Not even that tiny little thing
to like, it's like a little key that just turns something and
you're like, Oh, I better understand you now.
And you can, we find this all the time in the conversations,
we go through Reddit stories and some of our episodes.
And all the time there's stuff that it's just like just this
little bit of understanding or this little bit of curiosity or
this moment of, like you said, putting your mind in the place
of somebody else to just at least get some more context is
so empowering to relationships and necessary and something that
people just struggle with big. Time yeah, absolutely.
And I love that you you brought that up so I think about this so
much because it is my least favourite plot device in the
world and I now I realise how it is with chick flicks.
My example of that is watching Little Rascals as a six year old
and being like, why didn't spanking Alfalfa just say one
more sentence? And I guess I was attuned to
that at six, but at least frustrated with that plot device
as a child. So you know, that's my spectrum
is probably, but no, it's, it's so true.
And you know, I was, I was sitting with a friend the other
night and he was like, I need advice on this thing.
And the thing I realise is that often I'm like, I don't think
you have all the information or like, my question is like, have
you, you see this on, on Reddit when the, the few smart people
chime in, because I also am in the relationship advice threads
entertaining myself and someone's like the first 3
responses are like break up now and then.
And then one person who hasn't been uploaded is like, did you
ask them? Have you asked them to?
Clarify questions you. Know like ask a clarifying
question before you ask a bunch of in cells, please.
They don't know anything they're.
Just entertaining themselves. They're just there to, like,
inflamed, yeah. They've got no context.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And then to Blair's point, it was this this male friend of
mine and and he's a relatively healthy guy, but I said like,
well, why didn't you tell her about this and ask what the
logic was? And he's like, well, I just
didn't want to seem, you know, fill in the blank like anxious,
weak, needy. And it's just like, that's the
kind of language where like, I'm very glad that something I've
learned is I'd be like, I'm able to be like, hey, I'm feeling
real needy right now, sweetheart.
Like, can I have a needy night? Because I'm not, I'm not vibing
with, like, life at the moment. And that's maybe one of the
healthier feelings I know. Yeah.
So clarifying questions. Another thing I wanted to ask
you and you've been very open about, which I love and very for
is your experience with therapy, because we talk about here is we
try and you know, when we go through read stories, there's a
lot of things that we sort of bring through.
We read it, read it story and we put ourselves in that scenario
and say, what actions would we take here?
And something that we bring to some stories is like when you
need it, go get that extra help. Like don't shy away from that
extra help. And I think that a lot of people
have this view of therapy as, you know, like it means blank,
Like it means that I'm this, if I go get therapy, like you just
sort of said then with your mate, you know, I'm weak, I'm
this, I'm that. I don't want to look that way.
But the way that you speak about it is very positive.
So for you from your perspective, what has therapy
meant for you? How has it helped you and what
would you say to someone that struggles with maybe the
negative views of someone that goes to therapy or of of or
themselves going to therapy? Yeah, fair.
I mean, I think that what it's meant to me is like, with
absolute sincerity, like saved my life.
Like, I don't think I would be alive if, you know, I hadn't met
and connected with my therapist. And we have a, you know, our own
fascinating story of serendipity kind of thing.
You know, she's so important to me that I have her initials
tattooed on me. And she lives in the States that
we actually met one time. Like I flew to to meet her.
We went to like an Art Museum. You know, I just wanted to meet
this person who've been so influential.
And over the years, our relationship is separated more
to like now I'll sort of reach out when there is, you know, a
this is something I can't figure out because generally I think
that what it's meant to me is that I have the the tools and I
have the knowledge. And now it's no longer like, I
don't know what to do. It's like I know what to do.
I just maybe don't want to do it all the time.
I want to be a reactive child who's wife.
But I think that, you know, there are the few Times Now
where I'm like, I can't solve this one.
And so having that, that connection and just sort of
reaching out to her almost informally now.
But you know, the, the thing I say to people is like, I don't
know, like you can, you can keep being miserable.
Like, is this working? Is, is what you're currently
doing working? I, I don't know.
And I say the same thing about about medication.
Like if I, I don't really like, I always say like, man, somebody
in the 1800s would absolutely kill for antidepressants to
exist. Boy howdy.
Like, what are we, what are you doing?
You know, like I know that there's negative stigma, but if,
if your whole reason for not becoming a better person is that
you're worried about what people will think like one, you don't
have to tell anybody. So it's all about your own self
image. Like is your ego that big that
you don't want to be happier or be a better spouse or be a
better husband? And if so, I don't know.
I don't know what to say. But I can say like the net good
is just so massive and like, give it a shot.
The other thing I say to people all the time is like, don't be
afraid to try a few therapists because like you'll kind of know
when you meet somebody that vibes with you.
My therapist is a combination of empathetic but willing to tell
me like like you're being an idiot, like, and that's, and
that's what I need to hear, right?
I don't need to be, I need to be heard, but I also don't need to
be coddled and I need someone to call me out in this like almost
like loving cool Ant way. And, and that's what I needed.
But I've had therapists that I've tried that were honestly
just almost like cruel and so blunt and cold.
And that might be what works for somebody else.
And that could be an amazing fit.
And someone might need somebody who's not going to call them out
as much. And there's just different
modalities. So I think that, you know, I say
like, give it a shot. And half the people, you know,
are in therapy or trying and just hiding it.
And it's OK if you want to keep it from people.
But like, you could be happier and you're going to die someday
or maybe be happier. I don't know.
Yeah, like yesterday, it was a really great time to start
therapy for everybody. Yeah.
So in what ways has it helped you?
Like, so you're saying like aid, you know, be happier, go to
therapy. But how would it help you be
happier? Like, what's what?
Like you said, then, you know, sometimes she's telling you stop
being an idiot, stop doing this, stop doing that.
But if they like, do they give you practical tools?
Do they just help you understand what you're actually thinking
and what's going on? Like what does that journey
actually look? Like yeah, for me.
So I think that mine like the point at which I could relate to
maybe the broad population is sort of like the back half of my
therapy journey. Because I think the first, the
first four years were just like attempting to take somebody who
had like 0 self esteem experience like 0 joy and had
like no tools and just be like, you've now moved along the
spectrum maybe to like the place that somebody who's just like a
quote, like more regular person is, is struggling with, you
know, like a person who's maybe raised in a normal amount of
difficult environment, right? Like the normal stress.
And I'm not minimising anybody else's difficulties.
Everybody has their own. So that, that was the first bit
of mine. But I think that that's, that is
very specific when you have experienced like extremely deep
trauma. And if you have experienced like
if you've been physically, mentally, sexually abused in any
capacity, like you need, like there you literally have a deep
need to have somebody else help you sort that out.
Like that's what I will say. And then maybe on the other side
of that stuff, it was more like, okay, how do I start to change
the way that I talk about myself so that I can stop thinking
about myself and like internalising that?
Like how do I help to set boundaries so that I can
increase like my self esteem? And one of the things that I, I
heard somebody say one time was like, you know, self esteem is
built like when you keep promises to yourself.
So I know that my self esteem is healthier when I say, like, I am
going to wake up on time and I'm going to go to the gym, even if
it's like a really mediocre workout.
But like, this is what I have to do to feel good and like I am,
you know, making progress and healthy.
And so I think it also ties into boundaries.
I think it's something so many people need to learn is how do
they either hear other people's boundaries and respect them and
not like steamroll them and create a nightmare for
everybody. How do you not be codependent or
like allow codependents? And you know, how do you say
like, here is what I need. My therapist use this language
that really broke it open for me, which was not like, instead
of saying like you need to blank, it was this very like
peaceful statement of like to be in relationship with me blank
and like, that's it. And and sort of developing that
piece of like, I don't have to control people and I, you know,
can let them go if they can't meet those basic boundary needs.
And that on the other side, once you've gone through the anxiety
of losing people that you maybe wanted around because they were
fun or cool or pretty, it's a lot better on the other side.
And so I think that those are, you know, that's a hodgepodge of
ways that help me. But I know that now looking at
the conversation that I have with say, maybe like Co workers,
friends, business partners, like my own romantic partner, and the
way that those conversations are like, hey, here is what I need.
What are your thoughts on that is so much different than like
you're being stupid, like you're being awful, Like I hate this.
And just seeing how. Not only does it make me be more
calm and confident because instead of like attacking
someone, I'm saying like, I have value and I believe in myself
and here's what I need. And it's OK if you don't want to
say yes, but there is like a consequence of distance.
I just think that builds you up so much more.
And I think those are the the really practical ways that I was
able to build in therapy after that first chunk of like, let's
just get this brain sort of firing in a quasi normal way.
Yeah. That's awesome, mate, and, and
just so valuable. And again, I've did I, I have
really loved chatting with you, Bryce, Like I, you remind me so
much of Amy's brother. This is conversation and I think
he's one of the best people in the world.
Like I, I love him to bid. So this has been just absolutely
amazing for me. Just to gain your transparency,
your drive to grow and to learn and to get better.
And all these things are just really, really inspiring.
So I get I just get so pumped up with these conversations, right?
Thank you. One, one final chat that I
question I had for you is if you were to speak to your younger
self, maybe entering into your first relationship, what would
you tell to yourself, say to yourself in regards to
relationships? Give me give me 10 seconds with
this one. I've never heard that question
before. I think it would.
It would probably be a piece of advice that I received like ten
years ago that I wasn't able to internalise until a while later,
which was I ran into this therapist at a, at a marketing
event of all things in Vancouver.
And I was just, I think I was trying to pick her up honestly.
So I was like making conversation, if I'm remembering
it honestly. But I was like, hey, if you
could give one piece of advice to the world, like what would
you say? And she said, understand why you
do everything you do, I think. That's that's so.
Good. If I was able to look at my
behaviour and be like, this is what I'm doing, why at least
being able to instead be like, I am my emotions and the way I am
reacting is normal and it's totally fine.
And if you have a problem with it, that's your fault or like
deal with it. Instead of being like, I, why am
I speaking like this to somebody that I care about or like, why
do I have the desire to like run away or like sell?
Like why, like what is going on here?
Why am I doing the things I do? I think that maybe that would
have at least started with some, you know, started something, but
I, I think that would be, it is like, you know, why do you do
things like, what are they tied to?
And like, you know, what does that mean that you have to kind
of work on internally to to clear this out of your system?
Yeah. The better you understand
yourself, the better you can help someone else understand
yourself and the better you can approach somebody else in
relationship to, because that's the whole heart of what we do.
Is this attitude of curiosity thing like why am I reacting
this way? Why are you reacting this way?
People don't just wake up and react that way.
There's reasons that they do. And so that is such a good piece
of advice. I love that so much.
Thank you. Well, one thing I've always said
is that people it's not because they don't want to communicate,
but because they might not know how to communicate effectively.
I stole that from your website. That's a bit where I was reading
your own line back to you. I.
Thought it. Was good.
I thought it was good. But yeah, like, I think that's
what I would say. Yeah, yeah.
So you've told us about creating Revive, which is the overarching
company I'm assuming, and then Uncover Me is the game.
Where's Uncover Me at now? What can you update us on where
it is, what people can get into it, and how they can access it?
Yeah, for sure. So we are currently trying to
get it more ships to Amazon in the USA.
Amazon Canada has some copies. I believe we have to rebuild our
E commerce site, which I've just been honestly avoiding doing
because this is like, you know, 110th of my schedule now when I
have time for it between other stuff that we're working on.
But the really exciting thing is that we did the digital version.
So it actually is out now at least in North America, iOS and
Android. If you just search uncover me
relationship game, there's like a very early access version and
that should move to sort of a slightly better version.
And what we did with that was we made it asynchronous, where like
you play at different times throughout the day, you send
voice notes, you know, or text notes as you're sort of like
talking about your reaction choices and deep dive and
whatnot. And yeah, if people want to try
that out and let us know what they think, I think that's,
that's where it's at. We got to figure out what to do
with that next, you know, and I, who knows, Like I, I don't know
that we will ever be commercially successful, but I
think that we will hopefully try to just, you know, get more of
what we do into people's hands and hopefully help some people.
And we're working on kind of trying to build more
partnerships with therapists. So if you are a therapist and
listening to this and you're in North America, just reach out.
Like we'll send you a copy for every therapist in your clinic.
Just have it there if they, if they want to use it.
So I think that's sort of our strategy is, is therapists
really seem to see the value in what we're doing and doing that
and then working on our digital versions.
And then beyond that, like who knows?
We don't have our intern anymore.
So I don't do anything on social media.
We miss you, nasty. But yeah, that will be where
updates are when they exist. It's on our Instagram and play
on when. There's updates.
They'll be there. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I have, I have a guy somewhere.
I actually really loved it. I thought it was so helpful,
like we mentioned earlier. So yeah, we're really hoping
that it does take off and we get more opportunities here in
Australia to to get it. As well.
Yeah. And if you're in those in that
region, check it out up on Amazon so you can grow a copy
because it's definitely worth having as a resource, especially
for some of the at home date nights or even out of the home
date nights. Or even first.
Dates as we heard, Yeah, really good resource to have.
I always say that if you've been like chatting with someone for
like two or three weeks, you have like enough of a sliver of
an idea to like guess and just like make like the closest thing
to an educated guess about somebody.
Otherwise, you couldn't like people have said, why don't you
use it for like networking events, like the speed dating
things? And I was like, I don't know
anything. What am I going to be like?
You have red hair total. I think you're probably really
mean. What are you going to do?
So yeah, if you, if you've talked to someone just a little
bit, I think you have like just enough to to go on, Yeah.
And and enough to prompt a conversation even if you're
like, completely off. Yeah, exactly.
And have fun with it, man, It's so fun, yeah.
Well, thank you. Thank you.
Yeah. Awesome.
Well, this has been so great to chat to you, Bryce, and we
really, really, really appreciate all the little
Nuggets of wisdom and advice and lived experience that you've
shared with us and your vulnerability.
That's I think one of the most impactful things people can
experience when listening to someone share like this is, is
having lived it, walked it and being willing to share.
So we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us
from across the globe and share your experience.
Yeah, and I'm very appreciative for smarter people and play
testers and people like Emily Nagoski and, you know, the
scientists that have just built made this information easy to
access. So thank you for the kind words.
I feel like none of it is really mine.
I just, I feel like it's it's, you know, standing on the
shoulders of giants or whatever, but I appreciate it.
Well. Thank you very much.
Likely get the same, yeah.