1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,680 When I said I've just got home from a long, stressful day at 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,960 work, I opened the door to see my partner standing there naked 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,120 and smiling. What part of that situation did 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,840 each of you fixate on the most? Well, hard day of work. 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:15,960 My partner was naked. Every. 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,920 Every time. Hey guys, welcome back to 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,880 another episode of Honey. We Need to Chat. 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,760 So great to have you here, my wife. 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,760 Hello, Hello. My name is Amy and this is Blair 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:30,240 and we're Honey. We need to chat. 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,640 We are we. We come here and we chat about 12 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,280 the honey. And Blair thought he'd be funny 13 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,000 and throw a little, a little piece of information out there 14 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,280 the second before. We started talking. 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:40,040 It didn't. Throw me. 16 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:41,360 But you know what? It didn't throw me. 17 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:43,280 Well, I've taken it in my stride. 18 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,120 Well, and no one is ever going to know except that I just told 19 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:47,880 them. Yeah. 20 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:50,480 Well, welcome back to Honey. We need to chat. 2. 21 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,080 Two season 2. Episode TWA. 22 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,760 Of Season 2, Of Season 2, Of Season 2. 23 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,600 In fact, I don't want us to keep track of episode 2 of season 2 24 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,600 because it's going to get really confusing because the numbering 25 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,080 system is different. So if you're listening, I. 26 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,000 Just wanted to say, I wanted to say Tua. 27 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,000 So I said Tua. Let's go. 28 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,720 So anyway, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today on 29 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,200 this episode. And who have we got today? 30 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,240 We are really excited about this episode. 31 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,440 This is our first guest episode in Season 2. 32 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,000 First International. And 1st. 33 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,560 International guest. Not only either, we have other 34 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,640 international guests coming up as well, but today we get to 35 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,720 speak with Bryce Logan, who is the Co founder and designer of a 36 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,680 game called Uncover Me by the company called Revive and we are 37 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,200 chatting to him today. Honestly, this conversation was 38 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,160 really fun. It was really engaging and 39 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,960 there's some really powerful moments of just wisdom and 40 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,840 insight into relationships that we're very excited to share with 41 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,480 you. So he's going to share with us 42 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,400 today about his experience, what's led him into designing 43 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,840 this game and what I guess the purpose behind that is, which is 44 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,560 really cool. A little disclaimer, I guess we 45 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,920 were gifted uncover me last year as because we're a relationship 46 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,120 podcast and it was very generous. 47 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,560 We found out later, I mean it's generous regardless, but it was 48 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,880 extremely generous because I don't think they realised we 49 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,760 were in Australia and they ended up shipping it to us for 50 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,600 something like 60. Bucks or something? 51 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:21,000 Ridiculous amount of money, but yeah, he if you listen to the 52 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,960 episode you can hear a little bit more about where the game's 53 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,800 at. Unfortunately for our non North 54 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,800 American friends, the game is not as easily available on this 55 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,760 side of the world at this stage. But watch this space, listen to 56 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,080 the episode and follow. I would suggest following their 57 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,320 socials as well. Their socials follow our socials 58 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,720 because we'll be posting it as soon as it available to our 59 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,360 Aussie and New Zealand listeners and friends. 60 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,080 Yeah, I will make that very known to you for you because it 61 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,760 was such a great game. So as therapists and and game 62 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,080 designers coming together for fun and it really helps us just 63 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,760 help with conversations, but helps you to go into deeper 64 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,400 conversations or helped you to sort of have a think about the 65 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,440 other person, like really get your mind into that space, which 66 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:04,480 was good. It was really helpful. 67 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,080 It's a unique spin on couple games as well. 68 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,600 We've played a few and as he talks about in the episode, 69 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,600 there's quite kind of this like cookie cutter style to 70 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,560 relationship related board games. 71 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,040 This one is different. They've taken a different tactic 72 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,120 and it was really fun. So so have a listen. 73 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,160 Definitely. It's been specifically designed 74 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,400 to help people breakthrough kind of the surface level generalised 75 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,560 interactions they may be having in their relationship, 76 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,280 regardless of how long it's been. 77 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,880 And it's designed by psychologists to help people 78 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,520 build stronger relationships, not just for entertainment. 79 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,760 So follow along if you would like to check out their website. 80 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,400 It's not, I don't think it's impossible to get the game on 81 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,560 this side of the world. It's just probably a little more 82 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,680 complicated, but check out their website site for links. 83 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,440 You can go to playuncoverme.com and you can find their website. 84 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,640 You can also go to play Uncover Me on Instagram and we will tag 85 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,240 them in the posts that we make. There's an iOS version for 86 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:57,800 people again in North America and. 87 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,440 An Android version. And an Android version version, 88 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,160 Sorry, a phone version. Oh my gosh, a phone version. 89 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,640 A phone version is what I was trying to say. 90 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:10,520 Maybe there's that too. I don't know. 91 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,880 So I'm very jealous that they have that because I feel like 92 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,920 that would be, yeah. So definitely test that out, 93 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:19,640 yeah, if you're in that area. In that space, Yeah. 94 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,200 Awesome guys. Well, we really enjoyed this 95 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,760 conversation. It was very fun to stick around 96 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,640 and check it out. Bryce from Uncover Me. 97 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:34,320 See ya, honey. We need to chat. 98 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,920 Well, welcome back to Honey. We need a chat Today. 99 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,240 We have a really exciting guest. We're excited to introduce you 100 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,080 to Bryce Walken over from Canada. 101 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,120 I mean, is this our first international chat? 102 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,560 Yeah, it's our first, first. International chat hi go very 103 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,320 exciting welcome nice yeah Bryce is the founder and designer of 104 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,280 uncover me or revive to make uncover me and we're really 105 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:06,640 excited to hear a little bit about his journey and a little 106 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,720 bit about uncover me and all of those things that relate to 107 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,040 relationship communication communicator. 108 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,640 So thank you for joining us today, Bryce. 109 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,960 Yeah, thank you so much for having me from across the ocean 110 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,880 our. Pleasure. 111 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:26,200 Well, we'd love to just start maybe by just hearing a little 112 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,880 bit about yourself. What led you into the project of 113 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,920 Revive Uncover Me and and what you've learned I guess in the 114 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:35,480 process? That's a very big question, but 115 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,360 you can start where you feel most comfortable. 116 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,320 Yeah. So start with about me. 117 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,480 I'm writing this down. That was that was big. 118 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,080 So that is that was 3. Points. 119 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:45,920 We had about. Me, it was good job. 120 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,600 The journey. And then what was the last one 121 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,800 about? And what what I? 122 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,320 Learned what I learned I didn't some. 123 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,200 Small things just. Some small things, yeah, for 124 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,320 sure. So about me, so I'm 36, I live 125 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:01,240 in Canada. Yeah. 126 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,160 I mean my background is sort of like you in in marketing. 127 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,360 But over the last couple years I've really found a huge love of 128 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,000 product like problem solving at the core level. 129 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,400 I think that directly correlates to my hatred of social media and 130 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,440 how I just started getting too, too grumpy to play in the space 131 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,760 of the TikTok teens and there's only so many summer interns like 132 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,120 in hires. And that actually leads into the 133 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,400 the story of, of how we got here with with uncover me, which is 134 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,320 that I've actually worked with the same sort of boss on and off 135 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,200 for for 10 years. Boss slash investor. 136 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,120 But this, this gentleman that kind of gave me my first shot 137 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,160 professionally because I'm a, I'm a first year college 138 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:48,760 dropout, part of my, you know, ADHD being on the spectrum, 139 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,360 undiagnosed when I was in school. 140 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,840 So dropped out, did some work, tried to grind it out, and he 141 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:57,080 gave me a job 10 years ago. Last month was like our weird 142 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,440 anniversary. But yeah, so about four years 143 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,040 ago, I was working at a different agency. 144 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,720 He got a hold of me and said, hey, listen, like I've got this 145 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,720 idea and I think that you'd be really good at helping me market 146 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,560 it, which was more my role at the time. 147 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,800 And I, I jumped in because I actually really do love the 148 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,040 relationship space. Like it was, it's always been 149 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,280 interesting to me in, in, in some sense. 150 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:26,080 But his first idea was actually making these like bedroom role 151 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,080 play kits for couples who had dead bedrooms. 152 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,000 And initially I was like, cool, like I, I get the pitch. 153 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:40,360 And his idea as I started trying to go, OK, like, is this 154 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,480 actually a viable business from like a holistic standpoint was 155 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,640 like, OK, I don't think this is this this first approach is 156 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,120 entirely it. And that was kind of my first 157 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,640 taste of like doing like product of like at the core instead of 158 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,640 like starting with just marketing something. 159 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,080 How do we actually, like solve a real problem? 160 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,400 And so as I dove into that problem, we actually did make 161 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,240 like a, you know, a product to be called Naughty Night Switch. 162 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:09,440 The the aha ish moment for that came when I was playing D&D when 163 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:15,360 I was like, OK, so the thing about role playing is that it 164 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,760 gives you like permission, but you have to be encouraged if you 165 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,080 are shy about it. So that was kind of an aha. 166 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,360 So we made this product that was like these customised role 167 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,360 playing kits where people would submit their name and like their 168 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,200 gender or like a nickname. We would actually like print out 169 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,520 a package based on some like templates, send them stuff and 170 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,880 they would do this sort of like week long activity of like 171 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,600 slipping notes back and forth. And it was all designed to kind 172 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,280 of, if you were shy and maybe had something that you wanted to 173 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,040 talk about, it gave you like permission. 174 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:51,920 And I think that was the big learning was that when people 175 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,560 are given permission and encouragement to speak their 176 00:08:55,560 --> 00:08:58,520 mind, it's just so much easier than a dead stop. 177 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,640 You know, like any encouragement to say, like, I'm asking you to 178 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,520 participate, you know, there is an external force telling you to 179 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,960 participate makes a lot easier to open up. 180 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,840 So what I you know, when I was working on that, I started 181 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,640 reading it. It was such a weird overlap. 182 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,920 My my ex at the time had started reading like Come as You Are by 183 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,760 Emily Nagoski, which my copy is signed. 184 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,120 No big deal, but I. I saw that. 185 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,560 Yeah, I I saw that. And and she's like, I think you 186 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:31,600 should listen to this. And much like everything in my 187 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,640 life, I was like, I don't need to do anything I don't want to 188 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,720 do. I'm just really resistant to any 189 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,880 change, but I started listening to Come as you are, like the 190 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:45,400 audiobook. And when I got to the two 191 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,040 sections that were most impactful for me was sort of 192 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:54,200 like the dual control model of like human desire responses and 193 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,560 then context. I just like had these aha 194 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:59,960 moments and I'd already been sort of realising that like, 195 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,280 listen, if you're trying to solve the problem of a dead 196 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,400 bedroom, like there's something underlying that's a problem. 197 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,520 Like you can't just be like, Hey, do sex different. 198 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,640 There's something underneath that like has to be sorted out, 199 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,080 right? And so that was an assumption 200 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,200 that we had to tackle. And so, you know, I said to like 201 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,520 my boss, you know, the, the founder of this, this company, 202 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,200 It was like, you know, I, I think that if your goal is to 203 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,240 solve this problem, because this is the space that really 204 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,440 interests him, I think we have to kind of go deeper and try to 205 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,520 figure out the core of the problem. 206 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,920 And I remember knowing that and then hearing these chapters in 207 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,560 come as you are. And I called my girlfriend at 208 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:43,040 the time and I like, remember where I was walking in the world 209 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,280 and I was like, do you know your contexts? 210 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,760 And she's like, of course I do. And I was like, why have I never 211 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,080 heard that term? And I started like talking to 212 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,280 other because I knew I was at a conference at the time here in 213 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,640 Calgary, actually where I live. And I started talking to people 214 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,080 and just like the gap in awareness in heteronormative 215 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,520 couples was like, women were clearly aware that like context 216 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,520 affected them, like what was going on. 217 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,960 And then men were like, like, I'm I'm just going to be funny. 218 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,600 Like men were like, boobies are cool. 219 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,240 And I like when they're, you know, like not, you know, we 220 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,000 can, there's outliers for everything, but like their 221 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,120 research, you know, in, in, in come as you are. 222 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,840 Emily Nagasio says there's like building research that like 223 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,360 women are generally more context sensitive as it comes to like, 224 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,400 you know, arousal and, you know, the, the slowing down of, of 225 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,520 desire. And so all of that led to me 226 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:45,320 going, okay, like how do I design something that takes sort 227 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,960 of all of these learnings of like, if people are playing, 228 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,280 they're more willing to share, but they need to be encouraged. 229 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,200 Also, the knowledge that I gained from a friend of mine 230 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,200 who's an incredible researcher showed up to Philip from 231 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,720 Ruthless Insights here. Like he, you know, he was 232 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,920 explaining to me. He's like open ended questions 233 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,080 destroy people's brains. Like sit at a table and and ask 234 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,000 your partner what makes you mad and watch their watch them 235 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,520 either just be like, I don't know nothing or you have to 236 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,400 search so long that it like exhausts them. 237 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:18,840 It's like being in a job interview and. 238 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:20,440 That question makes them mad in the end. 239 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,920 Well, right. Like it's not, it's not, it's 240 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,480 not fun and it's really hard in our brain. 241 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,240 So we we call it and you know, Philip called it like the job 242 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,560 interview problem is it's choice paralysis. 243 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:34,080 It's too open ended. And so when I was looking at 244 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,800 other card games like these, these relationship card games, 245 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,960 literally every single 1/2 to the point that you can now white 246 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,680 label them on Aliexpress. By the way, you can white label 247 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:46,440 a relationship. You guys can have one tomorrow, 248 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,280 it's $300.00. They'll put your faces on it and 249 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,640 they'll send it out pre made. They're all the same. 250 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,000 And it's all just these question cards you flip. 251 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,800 And it's one of two categories. And this may be very mad as a 252 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,520 product person. One is who was your favourite 253 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,960 teacher in school and why? I don't care. 254 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,720 I'm trying to live with you. I am trying to figure out why 255 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,240 you're mad that I mentioned an X from 10 years ago in a story. 256 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,040 I need to learn something about you. 257 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,920 I don't care about your third grade teacher. 258 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,080 So cute, though. And then the other is that is an 259 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,520 actual example from one of these card decks that I have in like 260 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,440 my area where I have all this like research stuff, which is 261 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,960 like, what makes you mad and how do you calm down when you're 262 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,680 mad? Who can answer that question? 263 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,840 Effectively. Nobody. 264 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,360 So based on that conversation with Philip, it was first like, 265 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,320 OK, we need to narrow this down to at least how people choose 266 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,040 from like a subset just to get the conversation started. 267 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,480 It's so easy to point to this thing and then say, I think this 268 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,880 is closest. And then the other thing that we 269 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,120 did that was interesting was as opposed to open ended questions, 270 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,800 it was like, let's put people in a hypothetical situation. 271 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,840 Our brains can imagine the situation right and visualise it 272 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,440 much better than we can like describe like broad emotional 273 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,280 States and like hypotheticals about ourselves. 274 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,720 So the end result after like a year and a half of testing was 275 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,960 uncover me which is you like flip over a situation. 276 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,560 One of my favourite examples is a card that says I just finished 277 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,560 a long and stressful day at work. 278 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,880 I open the door to see my partner standing there naked and 279 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,920 smiling. And, you know, the player then 280 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,120 picks, yeah, the player then picks on a spectrum of like, 281 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,800 hate this, dislike this, unaffected by this, like this 282 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,520 love this, chooses their like closest quote reaction and then 283 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,800 guesses the other players. And the point is that it's 284 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,760 imperfect. But when you pick like this or 285 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,520 dislike this, your brain is like, well, this is close, but 286 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,480 not close. And here's why. 287 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,720 And so that's the idea is it's it's getting to the context of 288 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,200 everything. And my favourite part of that 289 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:05,240 example almost on this rant is that people, when I asked them 290 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,040 in play testing there, there's a split and I'm actually 291 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,640 interested in you two. OK, so the card is I'm not going 292 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,480 to ask you about your reaction. But when I said I've just got 293 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,640 home from a long stressful day at work, I opened the door to 294 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,160 see my partner standing there naked and smiling. 295 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:28,320 What part of that situation did each of you fixate on the most? 296 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,320 Like what jumped out about that to you? 297 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,480 Long hard day at work. My partner was naked. 298 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,520 Every, every time, right. So even in yeah, even in the 299 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,680 ways that we, even the ways that we wrote the situation, it was 300 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,120 crazy to see that even that is like information. 301 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,080 So to me, the part that I've actually fixated on is I am 302 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,520 terrified of being perceived. I don't want to be perceived 303 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,280 when I'm like on stage performing or in a podcast, I 304 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,840 have a right to be there. The idea that I would be he 305 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,800 perceived like a bad neighbour because my partner was naked and 306 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,880 it upset somebody. That's actually the thing I 307 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,320 fixated on the most. Not like boobies are nice, not 308 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,960 my stress, but now you can see that like there's clearly one of 309 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,360 you might be slightly more biassed towards like stress 310 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,800 having an impact. And so that's the sort of pseudo 311 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,440 magic that all came together like really harmoniously from 312 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,440 very different smart people that weren't me. 313 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,560 I felt like the person just put pieces of other people's work 314 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,400 together and then kind of like made a game. 315 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,320 But yeah, that was the that was the story of of how we got 316 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,360 there. Very long form. 317 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,120 Yeah, that's awesome, man. Like, and you guys were so kind 318 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,480 enough to to send us a copy of that and we absolutely love 319 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,680 yeah, that game. And just like that's exactly 320 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,440 what you just did. Then was given that scenario of 321 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,800 how would you respond? But I love the part of like, 322 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,680 cool, this is how I would respond. 323 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,680 But then guessing his response was really fun. 324 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,040 It was really, really fun. And it gave me a whole other 325 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,360 insight to her thinking, because what it does is it's not even 326 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,760 just a matter of like, can you guess the right answer? 327 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,839 It puts you in the mind of the other person, which I think is 328 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,760 such a critical point in relationships and communication 329 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,760 in general. And we say there's quite a lot 330 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,880 in our in this podcast of trying to understand, trying to come 331 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,599 from their perspective to the situation. 332 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,319 This is what this game has been really helpful for us for. 333 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,280 And I had so much fun. It was a lot of fun, yeah. 334 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,160 I remember when we were sitting down with it, I was like a bit 335 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:31,800 confused. I wasn't really sure what to 336 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:32,760 expect. I don't know. 337 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,040 I don't think we've played relationship games before, but I 338 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,480 kind of feel like we have. So I'm not sure. 339 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,280 I got a vague memory of it. I kind of expected it to be that 340 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,600 generic thing that you described, like what was your 341 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,760 scariest memory or something? And then those things are like 342 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,240 interesting. But you're right, the open 343 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,080 endedness of it, especially when you're coming from a place 344 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,360 that's maybe not you're not in a great mood or you're not 345 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,720 necessarily connecting in a really constructive way. 346 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,240 It's really hard to just have a casual conversation about 347 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,320 something that's super over ended and and not come at it 348 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,720 from your defensiveness or not come at it with all the stuff 349 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,480 that you're carrying in your relationship and in life into 350 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,640 that conversation. So having it broken down so 351 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,320 easily. So simply some of the times I 352 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,320 was like, I wouldn't really respond either of these ways or 353 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,920 it's a mix of the two. But at least it's a conversation 354 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,320 that you're then having and something that's prompted 355 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,640 thought for yourself and then for your partner. 356 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,880 It's such an interesting way of laying it. 357 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,920 Out yeah, thank you. And it's actually you've touched 358 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,680 on my my only regret with uncover me is that I phrased in 359 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,960 the instructions one thing wrong and it lives with me to this 360 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,640 day, which is that we we now tell people there is no perfect 361 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,240 reaction choice. And that's perfect. 362 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,680 I also do have to get a shout out here because Blair pointed 363 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:48,920 out something really interesting. 364 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,480 And I fought against this Blair when I was doing the original 365 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,280 design. Originally you just guessed the 366 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,240 other persons and didn't compare. 367 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,640 And so Shaker, my mentor, you know, Co founder investor, was 368 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,240 like, I will not do this unless players can compare because 369 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,840 that's all anybody in play testing that I test with wants 370 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,560 to do. And I was like, fine. 371 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,480 And then every just every play test after that, it was just, 372 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,720 you know, I just got, I was like, well, I want to to keep it 373 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,720 as simple as possible, but it turns out the benefits like far 374 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,560 outweighed having ten extra cards to, you know, put on the 375 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,440 table. So, and and that's the type of 376 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,720 thing you learn when you're building a card game. 377 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,480 But yeah, the kind the kind words also. 378 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,480 Absolutely, man. So one thing I wanted to know as 379 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,080 well, like so all right, so you've, you've got this game. 380 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,400 I I think it's a great game. I think it's absolutely amazing 381 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,040 in terms of and very in line with what we're trying to do 382 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,840 here on the podcast. Encourage conversation, give 383 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,720 people tools to have those conversations and brings a 384 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,720 confidence to that conversation as well, which is which is 385 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,760 amazing. My question to you is why? 386 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,120 But why are you so passionate about this? 387 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:55,160 Because I can hear it in the way that you're talking, man, 388 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,200 because it gets me passionate. It actually makes me want to go 389 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,840 play this game. I'm like, yeah, because so I 390 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,840 love, I love these conversations. 391 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:09,160 So where does this drive from? Yeah, I think that people who 392 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:14,600 are passionate about making things can either come from an 393 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:20,480 angle of extreme competence or extreme incompetence and 394 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,200 curiosity, like you're curious when you're making products. 395 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,640 But for for me, it came from extreme incompetence. 396 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,600 Like I am somebody who my whole life, like just wanted to a 397 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,280 detrimental point, like to be like in love and in a 398 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,880 relationship. And, you know, like I was raised 399 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,640 in a household that was very sporadic. 400 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,960 It led to like a lot of trauma, which led to like a lot of 401 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:43,800 issues that needed to be sorted out. 402 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,920 I mean, I think I started therapy seriously like 8 years 403 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,440 ago. Like I was 28. 404 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,280 And I say to people like start because now I'm the guy that 405 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,440 people ask about therapy, like, should I do this? 406 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,760 And I'm like, you're 40, dude. You should have done it 10 years 407 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,040 ago. But yeah, start today, you know, 408 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,200 no more holes in the wall. So like I, but I, you know, I 409 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,640 say that like it wasn't until like six years into therapy, I 410 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,920 probably could have had my first healthy relationship. 411 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,440 And so I think that desire to have like love in my life and 412 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,800 knowing that I was like really anxiously attached and like 413 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,160 learning all of these things and like slowly moving from, you 414 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,800 know, like super anxious, insecure attachment, like closer 415 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,800 towards like the healthy centre and like moving from being 416 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,320 somebody who was like super reactionary and like a bad 417 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,680 partner that like meant so well. And, you know, Blair, before the 418 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,040 conversation we started and you said like, one of the things 419 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,120 you're passionate about is like, how did dads become better dads? 420 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,000 And I think that like there's this weird thing tied into 421 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,240 masculinity culture that's so toxic where it's like, no, don't 422 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:51,600 ask help. Like you're fine the way you 423 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:52,280 are. It's fine. 424 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,240 Like just be mad everyone like whatever it's it's terrible. 425 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,080 And so I had no role models for love. 426 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,800 I I really outside of my grandparents relationship, can't 427 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,160 think of anybody in my family who like stayed married. 428 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,720 And so I think it was just this thing where I liken it to, I was 429 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,080 a guitar teacher for three years when I was like 18. 430 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,520 It was kind of like my first job out of high school. 431 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,960 And the reason I was a good guitar teacher was because I was 432 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,240 a terrible guitarist. Like believe it or not. 433 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,400 So when you're working with like 8 year old kids, it didn't come 434 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,080 naturally to me, right? So as opposed to, you know, I 435 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,160 had friends that I played in bands with that like three years 436 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,880 in were like Inve mounts, you know, just like rocking jazz 437 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,520 solos. And I'm still like, maybe I can 438 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,080 get through a Green Day song without a mistake a little bit, 439 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,840 you know, and but in that sense, like I learned how like I really 440 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,600 had to struggle with it all. And so I think that the why do 441 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,160 this is because, you know, much like when people ask me for like 442 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,680 really simple marketing advice, so that's my background and I 443 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,560 can rattle it off in 5 minutes. It's like, well, what if I can 444 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,640 save somebody the first three years of therapy lessons just 445 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,440 by, you know, or like, what if all of this that now, you know, 446 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,920 with my partner saves ME3 fights and hurt feelings a week, Like 447 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,760 just what if that could be passed forward, I guess. 448 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,360 And like, what if we didn't? As one of my mentors now says, 449 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:19,800 he's a great man that I found is like, you know, you're going to 450 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,720 step on land mines. And so my whole life was like 451 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,480 land mines that I couldn't see. And like when they blew up my 452 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,000 leg, I was like, Nah, that's someone else's fault, not mine. 453 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,600 Now it's like, how can I just help people? 454 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:32,840 How do we help people see them in advance? 455 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:38,000 Because like as my therapist says, you know, after you know, 456 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,160 your job in some situations, like the person you choose for 457 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,400 partner will be either the greatest like source of stress 458 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,480 or like benefit in your life and not like that relationship. 459 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,480 So that's, I guess that's it like a weird love of products 460 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,040 and problem solving. And then, you know, having had 461 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,120 to go through all of this just to become something along the 462 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:01,840 lines of like a potentially healthy partner, I think that's 463 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,840 the why. You were talking about in the 464 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,640 first answer about how your ex had introduced you to that book. 465 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,360 And then you started to be like, what in your mind just like open 466 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:14,320 to these things and that that influenced the the designing of 467 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,080 the game. How did that start to influence 468 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,880 your approach to relationships as you started to explore these 469 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,120 different contexts and that sort of thing? 470 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:26,600 Yeah, I, I think that's a really good question. 471 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,160 I mean, I think that one of the more I shouldn't say 472 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,480 heartbreaking things, I think that one of the realities I've 473 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,120 come to terms with is I think that maybe had I learned all of 474 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:40,920 this stuff, maybe that could have been salvage. 475 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,240 But I also think that I, through my trauma responses, had just 476 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,920 chosen someone that wasn't a fit, like great person, but like 477 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,280 not a fit. So I think that one of the first 478 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,200 things that it did was help me see like, how do I ask better 479 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,840 questions or interact with people in ways that I can figure 480 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,360 out if they really are like a fit for me in terms of like 481 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,680 values, how we'd like work together, live together. 482 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:11,240 I think it made me, you know, understand that like things that 483 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,320 could scare me away weren't necessarily the end of the world 484 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,680 if I understood them more. And like a really funny example 485 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,320 of this is that I dated someone for almost a year and it was it 486 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,440 was a relatively like healthy, good relationship. 487 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,480 We just we were headed down different life paths. 488 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,800 So it's kind of part of ways amicably, but our first date we 489 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,480 played Uncover me because she wanted to. 490 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:40,480 I don't just bring it out. OK, I wasn't just like I had 491 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,120 mentioned it in passing. That's what I was working on. 492 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,720 So she asked to try and there was a there was a situation that 493 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,800 was about like, hey, like my partner is sick. 494 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,160 Like, you know, do I, you know, how do I feel about them, you 495 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,720 know, sleeping in a different room or whatever. 496 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,400 And she said to me, my ideal situation is that my partner and 497 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,120 I live in two different houses separated by a hallway where I 498 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:04,400 can lock the door from my side only. 499 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,400 I was like. Cool. 500 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:11,920 I like cuddling. Yeah, so, but the thing was, but 501 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,320 because we were playing in this modality, it actually led to 502 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,760 because if someones like say like dating profile said that, I 503 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,600 would just be like, no thanks. But the fact that we got to talk 504 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,400 about it more and more and what I learned was what she was 505 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,800 trying to communicate was that like personal space and like the 506 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,480 sanctity of her home is so important for her that it's like 507 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,560 a very possibly anxiety inducing situation to have somebody in 508 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,720 her home that makes it feel like an unsafe or cluttered or non 509 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,680 peaceful space. What's really crazy about that 510 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,880 is I entirely agree. Like I am so particular about my 511 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,200 home being like minimalist and I don't know if you guys just see 512 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,600 the, you can't see the colour of my walls. 513 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,000 Like every wall besides that one is like dark green to like keep 514 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,160 me calm. And so I think that what I 515 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,440 learned was that as opposed to just reacting to the first 516 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:13,800 thing, if we can ask like 1 clarifying question like one, 517 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,160 how much would that save us? And, you know, the other day I 518 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,880 was in a relatively, like, rough discussion with my girlfriend, 519 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,640 and I said something that was along the lines of like, hey, I 520 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,120 was thinking about something that I said yesterday, Bryce. 521 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,560 And I think that the way that I behaved, I'm not OK with that. 522 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,120 I'm sorry it happened to me. It felt like borderline, like, 523 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,720 echoes of, like, old abusive patterns. 524 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,360 And I'm sorry. I think it was just something 525 00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:45,960 like, shutting down or like walking away too soon, you know, 526 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,680 like, thankfully we're not like, cruel to each other and like, 527 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,520 you know, physically or mentally or anything. 528 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,480 But I was just like, I want to hold myself to a higher 529 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,080 standard. And she got like, really quiet. 530 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,600 And I was like, oh, I guess my apology wasn't good enough. 531 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,760 And she was like, you know, maybe I should go. 532 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,880 And I was like, OK. And she was good enough to ask a 533 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,960 clarifying question where she was like, I just want to know 534 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,840 why you thought that I was behaving in an abusive way. 535 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,960 I'm sorry that you felt like that about me. 536 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,480 And I was like, no, like I was trying to own this dog. 537 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,880 Like, I'm trying to take responsibility. 538 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,600 And so she was like, that's so different, you know, like our 539 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,160 right. And I think that just sometimes 540 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,160 we just don't ask the follow up question, even words like what 541 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,320 does a word mean to you? The word, you know, patient 542 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,240 means one thing to someone. So anyhow, I think that was a 543 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,560 big learning. You see that all the time, 544 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,560 especially in chick flicks, because it's where relationships 545 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,800 play out most all the time. The only reason that there's 546 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,920 even a movie is because someone's done something that 547 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,480 they just don't clarify or they just. 548 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,960 Don't ask for that, I know. That's not they just don't ask 549 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,480 like they'll see someone hugging someone and instead of being 550 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,160 like it was. That. 551 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,760 It's like we are done. I knew you were about. 552 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,920 Seriously, That's like constant. The reason I don't like. 553 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,640 Netflix. Is because of that. 554 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,600 And obviously that's. The reason real life, like 555 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,320 that's not how most people will ask to some extent, but I think 556 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,080 you're so right that there's like there's just there's so 557 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,560 many things that play out and there's so many stories that 558 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,680 happen and we're working with so many things at the same time 559 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,440 that it's really easy to misunderstand and it's really 560 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,600 easy to put a story over something that's not accurate. 561 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,560 And even your story of of your first date when that response 562 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,960 was just so different to what most people would probably 563 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,600 respond with. It's interesting that like you 564 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,720 could have started dating, never have had had that game, never 565 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,480 have had that question, never have heard her say those words. 566 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,320 And she could have been responding and playing out of 567 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240 this, whatever it is that plays into that for her, this anxiety 568 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,400 or this idea of what she wants her relationships. 569 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,200 And that could have been playing out and how she entered the 570 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,040 relationship. And then you would be playing 571 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,280 out how you're observing her in the relationship and never have 572 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,000 had that conversation. Not even that tiny little thing 573 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,400 to like, it's like a little key that just turns something and 574 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,400 you're like, Oh, I better understand you now. 575 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,200 And you can, we find this all the time in the conversations, 576 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,320 we go through Reddit stories and some of our episodes. 577 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,520 And all the time there's stuff that it's just like just this 578 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,360 little bit of understanding or this little bit of curiosity or 579 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,320 this moment of, like you said, putting your mind in the place 580 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,040 of somebody else to just at least get some more context is 581 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,320 so empowering to relationships and necessary and something that 582 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,680 people just struggle with big. Time yeah, absolutely. 583 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,640 And I love that you you brought that up so I think about this so 584 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,640 much because it is my least favourite plot device in the 585 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,200 world and I now I realise how it is with chick flicks. 586 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,840 My example of that is watching Little Rascals as a six year old 587 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,200 and being like, why didn't spanking Alfalfa just say one 588 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:55,920 more sentence? And I guess I was attuned to 589 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,800 that at six, but at least frustrated with that plot device 590 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,840 as a child. So you know, that's my spectrum 591 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,120 is probably, but no, it's, it's so true. 592 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,560 And you know, I was, I was sitting with a friend the other 593 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,600 night and he was like, I need advice on this thing. 594 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,400 And the thing I realise is that often I'm like, I don't think 595 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,440 you have all the information or like, my question is like, have 596 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,280 you, you see this on, on Reddit when the, the few smart people 597 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,280 chime in, because I also am in the relationship advice threads 598 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,400 entertaining myself and someone's like the first 3 599 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,600 responses are like break up now and then. 600 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,520 And then one person who hasn't been uploaded is like, did you 601 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,600 ask them? Have you asked them to? 602 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,720 Clarify questions you. Know like ask a clarifying 603 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,360 question before you ask a bunch of in cells, please. 604 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,080 They don't know anything they're. 605 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,160 Just entertaining themselves. They're just there to, like, 606 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,240 inflamed, yeah. They've got no context. 607 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,920 Absolutely. Yeah. 608 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,280 And then to Blair's point, it was this this male friend of 609 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,360 mine and and he's a relatively healthy guy, but I said like, 610 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,160 well, why didn't you tell her about this and ask what the 611 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,080 logic was? And he's like, well, I just 612 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,960 didn't want to seem, you know, fill in the blank like anxious, 613 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,880 weak, needy. And it's just like, that's the 614 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,960 kind of language where like, I'm very glad that something I've 615 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,600 learned is I'd be like, I'm able to be like, hey, I'm feeling 616 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,480 real needy right now, sweetheart. 617 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,600 Like, can I have a needy night? Because I'm not, I'm not vibing 618 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,640 with, like, life at the moment. And that's maybe one of the 619 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,760 healthier feelings I know. Yeah. 620 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,720 So clarifying questions. Another thing I wanted to ask 621 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,000 you and you've been very open about, which I love and very for 622 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,720 is your experience with therapy, because we talk about here is we 623 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,160 try and you know, when we go through read stories, there's a 624 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,040 lot of things that we sort of bring through. 625 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,640 We read it, read it story and we put ourselves in that scenario 626 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,040 and say, what actions would we take here? 627 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,960 And something that we bring to some stories is like when you 628 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,200 need it, go get that extra help. Like don't shy away from that 629 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,320 extra help. And I think that a lot of people 630 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:05,280 have this view of therapy as, you know, like it means blank, 631 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,480 Like it means that I'm this, if I go get therapy, like you just 632 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,600 sort of said then with your mate, you know, I'm weak, I'm 633 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,160 this, I'm that. I don't want to look that way. 634 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,720 But the way that you speak about it is very positive. 635 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,040 So for you from your perspective, what has therapy 636 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,360 meant for you? How has it helped you and what 637 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,800 would you say to someone that struggles with maybe the 638 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,840 negative views of someone that goes to therapy or of of or 639 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,960 themselves going to therapy? Yeah, fair. 640 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,840 I mean, I think that what it's meant to me is like, with 641 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,600 absolute sincerity, like saved my life. 642 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,000 Like, I don't think I would be alive if, you know, I hadn't met 643 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,040 and connected with my therapist. And we have a, you know, our own 644 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,360 fascinating story of serendipity kind of thing. 645 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,760 You know, she's so important to me that I have her initials 646 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,960 tattooed on me. And she lives in the States that 647 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,240 we actually met one time. Like I flew to to meet her. 648 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,880 We went to like an Art Museum. You know, I just wanted to meet 649 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,240 this person who've been so influential. 650 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,720 And over the years, our relationship is separated more 651 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,520 to like now I'll sort of reach out when there is, you know, a 652 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,400 this is something I can't figure out because generally I think 653 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,920 that what it's meant to me is that I have the the tools and I 654 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,080 have the knowledge. And now it's no longer like, I 655 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,679 don't know what to do. It's like I know what to do. 656 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,800 I just maybe don't want to do it all the time. 657 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,920 I want to be a reactive child who's wife. 658 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,239 But I think that, you know, there are the few Times Now 659 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,199 where I'm like, I can't solve this one. 660 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,120 And so having that, that connection and just sort of 661 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,880 reaching out to her almost informally now. 662 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:48,639 But you know, the, the thing I say to people is like, I don't 663 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:51,199 know, like you can, you can keep being miserable. 664 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,520 Like, is this working? Is, is what you're currently 665 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,600 doing working? I, I don't know. 666 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,440 And I say the same thing about about medication. 667 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,600 Like if I, I don't really like, I always say like, man, somebody 668 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,480 in the 1800s would absolutely kill for antidepressants to 669 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:07,680 exist. Boy howdy. 670 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,680 Like, what are we, what are you doing? 671 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,120 You know, like I know that there's negative stigma, but if, 672 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,400 if your whole reason for not becoming a better person is that 673 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,440 you're worried about what people will think like one, you don't 674 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,440 have to tell anybody. So it's all about your own self 675 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,800 image. Like is your ego that big that 676 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,720 you don't want to be happier or be a better spouse or be a 677 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:31,920 better husband? And if so, I don't know. 678 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,600 I don't know what to say. But I can say like the net good 679 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,440 is just so massive and like, give it a shot. 680 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,760 The other thing I say to people all the time is like, don't be 681 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,680 afraid to try a few therapists because like you'll kind of know 682 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,360 when you meet somebody that vibes with you. 683 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,600 My therapist is a combination of empathetic but willing to tell 684 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,600 me like like you're being an idiot, like, and that's, and 685 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,680 that's what I need to hear, right? 686 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,800 I don't need to be, I need to be heard, but I also don't need to 687 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,480 be coddled and I need someone to call me out in this like almost 688 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,680 like loving cool Ant way. And, and that's what I needed. 689 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,200 But I've had therapists that I've tried that were honestly 690 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,400 just almost like cruel and so blunt and cold. 691 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,640 And that might be what works for somebody else. 692 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,160 And that could be an amazing fit. 693 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,240 And someone might need somebody who's not going to call them out 694 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,760 as much. And there's just different 695 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,120 modalities. So I think that, you know, I say 696 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,920 like, give it a shot. And half the people, you know, 697 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,400 are in therapy or trying and just hiding it. 698 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,560 And it's OK if you want to keep it from people. 699 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,880 But like, you could be happier and you're going to die someday 700 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,480 or maybe be happier. I don't know. 701 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,680 Yeah, like yesterday, it was a really great time to start 702 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,800 therapy for everybody. Yeah. 703 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,280 So in what ways has it helped you? 704 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,920 Like, so you're saying like aid, you know, be happier, go to 705 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,240 therapy. But how would it help you be 706 00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:58,800 happier? Like, what's what? 707 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,840 Like you said, then, you know, sometimes she's telling you stop 708 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,840 being an idiot, stop doing this, stop doing that. 709 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,920 But if they like, do they give you practical tools? 710 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,880 Do they just help you understand what you're actually thinking 711 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,960 and what's going on? Like what does that journey 712 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,520 actually look? Like yeah, for me. 713 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,440 So I think that mine like the point at which I could relate to 714 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,520 maybe the broad population is sort of like the back half of my 715 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,040 therapy journey. Because I think the first, the 716 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:27,280 first four years were just like attempting to take somebody who 717 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:33,800 had like 0 self esteem experience like 0 joy and had 718 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,280 like no tools and just be like, you've now moved along the 719 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:42,120 spectrum maybe to like the place that somebody who's just like a 720 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,120 quote, like more regular person is, is struggling with, you 721 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,280 know, like a person who's maybe raised in a normal amount of 722 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,800 difficult environment, right? Like the normal stress. 723 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,040 And I'm not minimising anybody else's difficulties. 724 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,600 Everybody has their own. So that, that was the first bit 725 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,320 of mine. But I think that that's, that is 726 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,160 very specific when you have experienced like extremely deep 727 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,800 trauma. And if you have experienced like 728 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,800 if you've been physically, mentally, sexually abused in any 729 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,600 capacity, like you need, like there you literally have a deep 730 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,520 need to have somebody else help you sort that out. 731 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,600 Like that's what I will say. And then maybe on the other side 732 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,560 of that stuff, it was more like, okay, how do I start to change 733 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,320 the way that I talk about myself so that I can stop thinking 734 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,360 about myself and like internalising that? 735 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:36,040 Like how do I help to set boundaries so that I can 736 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,800 increase like my self esteem? And one of the things that I, I 737 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,120 heard somebody say one time was like, you know, self esteem is 738 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,520 built like when you keep promises to yourself. 739 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,160 So I know that my self esteem is healthier when I say, like, I am 740 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,680 going to wake up on time and I'm going to go to the gym, even if 741 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,360 it's like a really mediocre workout. 742 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,840 But like, this is what I have to do to feel good and like I am, 743 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,560 you know, making progress and healthy. 744 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,440 And so I think it also ties into boundaries. 745 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,200 I think it's something so many people need to learn is how do 746 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,040 they either hear other people's boundaries and respect them and 747 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,280 not like steamroll them and create a nightmare for 748 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,120 everybody. How do you not be codependent or 749 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,600 like allow codependents? And you know, how do you say 750 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,280 like, here is what I need. My therapist use this language 751 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,560 that really broke it open for me, which was not like, instead 752 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,880 of saying like you need to blank, it was this very like 753 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:31,400 peaceful statement of like to be in relationship with me blank 754 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,920 and like, that's it. And and sort of developing that 755 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,560 piece of like, I don't have to control people and I, you know, 756 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,600 can let them go if they can't meet those basic boundary needs. 757 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,240 And that on the other side, once you've gone through the anxiety 758 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,800 of losing people that you maybe wanted around because they were 759 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,520 fun or cool or pretty, it's a lot better on the other side. 760 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,680 And so I think that those are, you know, that's a hodgepodge of 761 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,320 ways that help me. But I know that now looking at 762 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,080 the conversation that I have with say, maybe like Co workers, 763 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,400 friends, business partners, like my own romantic partner, and the 764 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,600 way that those conversations are like, hey, here is what I need. 765 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,840 What are your thoughts on that is so much different than like 766 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,000 you're being stupid, like you're being awful, Like I hate this. 767 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,040 And just seeing how. Not only does it make me be more 768 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,320 calm and confident because instead of like attacking 769 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,520 someone, I'm saying like, I have value and I believe in myself 770 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,880 and here's what I need. And it's OK if you don't want to 771 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,480 say yes, but there is like a consequence of distance. 772 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,240 I just think that builds you up so much more. 773 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,720 And I think those are the the really practical ways that I was 774 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,200 able to build in therapy after that first chunk of like, let's 775 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,480 just get this brain sort of firing in a quasi normal way. 776 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,600 Yeah. That's awesome, mate, and, and 777 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,200 just so valuable. And again, I've did I, I have 778 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,280 really loved chatting with you, Bryce, Like I, you remind me so 779 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,200 much of Amy's brother. This is conversation and I think 780 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:02,680 he's one of the best people in the world. 781 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,240 Like I, I love him to bid. So this has been just absolutely 782 00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,720 amazing for me. Just to gain your transparency, 783 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,760 your drive to grow and to learn and to get better. 784 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,400 And all these things are just really, really inspiring. 785 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,440 So I get I just get so pumped up with these conversations, right? 786 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,160 Thank you. One, one final chat that I 787 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,400 question I had for you is if you were to speak to your younger 788 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,760 self, maybe entering into your first relationship, what would 789 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,600 you tell to yourself, say to yourself in regards to 790 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,800 relationships? Give me give me 10 seconds with 791 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,120 this one. I've never heard that question 792 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:38,840 before. I think it would. 793 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:46,480 It would probably be a piece of advice that I received like ten 794 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,680 years ago that I wasn't able to internalise until a while later, 795 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,920 which was I ran into this therapist at a, at a marketing 796 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,480 event of all things in Vancouver. 797 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,840 And I was just, I think I was trying to pick her up honestly. 798 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,880 So I was like making conversation, if I'm remembering 799 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,040 it honestly. But I was like, hey, if you 800 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,400 could give one piece of advice to the world, like what would 801 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,680 you say? And she said, understand why you 802 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,600 do everything you do, I think. That's that's so. 803 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,280 Good. If I was able to look at my 804 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:24,360 behaviour and be like, this is what I'm doing, why at least 805 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,400 being able to instead be like, I am my emotions and the way I am 806 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,960 reacting is normal and it's totally fine. 807 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,200 And if you have a problem with it, that's your fault or like 808 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,320 deal with it. Instead of being like, I, why am 809 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,720 I speaking like this to somebody that I care about or like, why 810 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:43,000 do I have the desire to like run away or like sell? 811 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,040 Like why, like what is going on here? 812 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,800 Why am I doing the things I do? I think that maybe that would 813 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,080 have at least started with some, you know, started something, but 814 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,880 I, I think that would be, it is like, you know, why do you do 815 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,280 things like, what are they tied to? 816 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,600 And like, you know, what does that mean that you have to kind 817 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,000 of work on internally to to clear this out of your system? 818 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,040 Yeah. The better you understand 819 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,440 yourself, the better you can help someone else understand 820 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,360 yourself and the better you can approach somebody else in 821 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,880 relationship to, because that's the whole heart of what we do. 822 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,960 Is this attitude of curiosity thing like why am I reacting 823 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,040 this way? Why are you reacting this way? 824 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,760 People don't just wake up and react that way. 825 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,400 There's reasons that they do. And so that is such a good piece 826 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:28,800 of advice. I love that so much. 827 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,480 Thank you. Well, one thing I've always said 828 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,680 is that people it's not because they don't want to communicate, 829 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,120 but because they might not know how to communicate effectively. 830 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,440 I stole that from your website. That's a bit where I was reading 831 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,240 your own line back to you. I. 832 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,480 Thought it. Was good. 833 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,600 I thought it was good. But yeah, like, I think that's 834 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,280 what I would say. Yeah, yeah. 835 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,760 So you've told us about creating Revive, which is the overarching 836 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,720 company I'm assuming, and then Uncover Me is the game. 837 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,640 Where's Uncover Me at now? What can you update us on where 838 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,640 it is, what people can get into it, and how they can access it? 839 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,280 Yeah, for sure. So we are currently trying to 840 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,360 get it more ships to Amazon in the USA. 841 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,920 Amazon Canada has some copies. I believe we have to rebuild our 842 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,600 E commerce site, which I've just been honestly avoiding doing 843 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,280 because this is like, you know, 110th of my schedule now when I 844 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,480 have time for it between other stuff that we're working on. 845 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,280 But the really exciting thing is that we did the digital version. 846 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,040 So it actually is out now at least in North America, iOS and 847 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,800 Android. If you just search uncover me 848 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,720 relationship game, there's like a very early access version and 849 00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:44,000 that should move to sort of a slightly better version. 850 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,440 And what we did with that was we made it asynchronous, where like 851 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,320 you play at different times throughout the day, you send 852 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,400 voice notes, you know, or text notes as you're sort of like 853 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,960 talking about your reaction choices and deep dive and 854 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,840 whatnot. And yeah, if people want to try 855 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,160 that out and let us know what they think, I think that's, 856 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,920 that's where it's at. We got to figure out what to do 857 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,760 with that next, you know, and I, who knows, Like I, I don't know 858 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,400 that we will ever be commercially successful, but I 859 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,920 think that we will hopefully try to just, you know, get more of 860 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,600 what we do into people's hands and hopefully help some people. 861 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,720 And we're working on kind of trying to build more 862 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:21,640 partnerships with therapists. So if you are a therapist and 863 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,120 listening to this and you're in North America, just reach out. 864 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,280 Like we'll send you a copy for every therapist in your clinic. 865 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,480 Just have it there if they, if they want to use it. 866 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,320 So I think that's sort of our strategy is, is therapists 867 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,480 really seem to see the value in what we're doing and doing that 868 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,160 and then working on our digital versions. 869 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,440 And then beyond that, like who knows? 870 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:41,760 We don't have our intern anymore. 871 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,360 So I don't do anything on social media. 872 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,880 We miss you, nasty. But yeah, that will be where 873 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,960 updates are when they exist. It's on our Instagram and play 874 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,000 on when. There's updates. 875 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:54,480 They'll be there. Yeah, yeah. 876 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,080 Well, I have, I have a guy somewhere. 877 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,320 I actually really loved it. I thought it was so helpful, 878 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,360 like we mentioned earlier. So yeah, we're really hoping 879 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,920 that it does take off and we get more opportunities here in 880 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:08,920 Australia to to get it. As well. 881 00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:10,960 Yeah. And if you're in those in that 882 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,080 region, check it out up on Amazon so you can grow a copy 883 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,560 because it's definitely worth having as a resource, especially 884 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,400 for some of the at home date nights or even out of the home 885 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:21,880 date nights. Or even first. 886 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,800 Dates as we heard, Yeah, really good resource to have. 887 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,520 I always say that if you've been like chatting with someone for 888 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,800 like two or three weeks, you have like enough of a sliver of 889 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,480 an idea to like guess and just like make like the closest thing 890 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,360 to an educated guess about somebody. 891 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,320 Otherwise, you couldn't like people have said, why don't you 892 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,640 use it for like networking events, like the speed dating 893 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:46,840 things? And I was like, I don't know 894 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,240 anything. What am I going to be like? 895 00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:51,320 You have red hair total. I think you're probably really 896 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:52,840 mean. What are you going to do? 897 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,400 So yeah, if you, if you've talked to someone just a little 898 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,160 bit, I think you have like just enough to to go on, Yeah. 899 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:02,520 And and enough to prompt a conversation even if you're 900 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,440 like, completely off. Yeah, exactly. 901 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,240 And have fun with it, man, It's so fun, yeah. 902 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:08,440 Well, thank you. Thank you. 903 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:09,480 Yeah. Awesome. 904 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,000 Well, this has been so great to chat to you, Bryce, and we 905 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,680 really, really, really appreciate all the little 906 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,840 Nuggets of wisdom and advice and lived experience that you've 907 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,480 shared with us and your vulnerability. 908 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,040 That's I think one of the most impactful things people can 909 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,400 experience when listening to someone share like this is, is 910 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,880 having lived it, walked it and being willing to share. 911 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,880 So we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us 912 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,440 from across the globe and share your experience. 913 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,120 Yeah, and I'm very appreciative for smarter people and play 914 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,520 testers and people like Emily Nagoski and, you know, the 915 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,520 scientists that have just built made this information easy to 916 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,880 access. So thank you for the kind words. 917 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,360 I feel like none of it is really mine. 918 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,640 I just, I feel like it's it's, you know, standing on the 919 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,160 shoulders of giants or whatever, but I appreciate it. 920 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,200 Well. Thank you very much. 921 00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,040 Likely get the same, yeah.