Welcome back to Go Again honey, we need to chat.
Hello. Hello, welcome back to another
episode of Honey. We Need to chat.
I have a button. I've got a button and it's good.
It is. Glorious.
Hack your Yeah, our car is going wild.
Ferguson, Michael Jordan Cable control yourself.
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode.
This podcast is all about the importance of communication in a
relationship. We believe that when
communication dies, bad things happen.
So we want to encourage you as we encourage each other to be
prioritising communication in that relationship, to be
learning different ways to communicate, learning how the
other person receives communication, all of the
things. So that's what we do in this
podcast. We are so pumped to have you
here. So thank you so much for that.
And Ferguson is in trouble. Yes, welcome back.
We are going to be discussing an important topic today.
Yeah, it's it's something that is relevant to us.
So we really try and bring relevance to these episodes.
Not that we just spit out random things, but things that we've
worked on and had to work through.
So we've gone through one of our most popular episodes was our
episode on Mental Load. That's about like, who's
remembering, you know, to, to in the dentist appointment, who
remembers what the kids allergies are?
Who's remembering, you know, where we're up to in the food
process and who's taking in what sort of food and all this sort
of stuff. It's the load, the unsaid
things. So I gave an example that, you
know, I was trying to grow in this area.
So I'm like, cool, I'm going to go do the groceries.
I'm going to do the groceries for Amy.
Amy, what do we need to get? And I'll go get it.
And I was putting a mental load onto Amy rather than actually
helping the situation. I just created a different
situation. So I.
Had to come up with the groceries.
Yeah, Amy had to come up with the grocery list.
I did the shop, that was great, but I'm still putting that
mental load onto Amy. So there's another area we
wanted to discuss today. So there's different loads,
there's the practical load, there's the emotional load.
But today we want to talk about another load that plays out in
relationships called. The social load the.
Social load. Social relationships, social
lives, it's a load that is often unrecognised.
I think it's not necessarily something that you hear as a
trigger word or like a trending word, but you will probably have
seen it play out because every relationship navigates their
social lives and their friendships that the community
area of their life differently and has different dynamics that
play out. And we've found dynamics that
have played out for us. We've also heard and been in
communication with our friends who have had it play out totally
differently for them. But it is a factor and something
to be aware of. So we wanted to talk about what
happens when you're in a relationship and the social load
is not balanced. But before we jump into that
episode, well into that topic, would you rather all right, I'm
just having fun with these buttons.
Sorry, first one, would you rather your partner claps every
time the aeroplane lands? I I I giggle to this one or your
partner hisses at people that who cut in in front of you in
line. Oh, I actually like both of them
a little bit either. You clap when we land, Yeah?
Yeah, I was. I had you in mind here.
I'm like, you would get so anxious if I got frustrated with
someone. If.
If it was like out of control, especially if it was a really
intense situation, yeah, especially if I was like, that
person could really hurt you. I think I'm the clap one as
well. I think because the clap one is
embarrassing. It would be, but I got
distracted. I had to go get the spray bottle
because Ferguson was nearly bumping over the camera.
So anyway, if I didn't finish this, I'll finish it now.
I think with the hisses one it just is the aeroplane 1 the
clapping is embarrassing. The other one is like tense and
tense is more. I don't like tenseness.
Like I prefer embarrassment than tense and.
The hissing one could escalate, yeah.
Plus the hissing 1 is a negative, whereas the clapping 1
is kind of. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, Yeah. That's a good point.
And not offensive to anyone all. Right, next one.
Would you rather always feel like you're about to sneeze but
never do? Mm, hmm.
Or always feel like you have a single hair stuck in your eye.
This is a hard one having. Your hair in your eye is not
fun. Nearly.
Sneezing and not sneezing is not fun either.
I don't know. I've got an answer.
I would rather a sneeze. I sneezed earlier and there's a
bit of a sneeze that's enjoyable, like a feeling that
I've bad to sneeze. You're like, oh, this is kind of
nice, but it's annoying, but it's kind of nice hair in the
eye terrible. This is annoying, so I would
prefer the sneeze I. Think I totally agree with you.
I don't know what part of the sneeze is slightly enjoyable.
Look like when you that feeling like when you I.
Know the feeling because. I because I got this question
down before I actually sneezed so I was actually super aware of
me sneezing and that time I. Enjoyed the moment well.
It's not that I really enjoy it like this amazing experience.
It was like, well, that feels kind of cool.
I. Wonder if it's the relief that
happens after a sneeze that that I.
Mean that's good, it triggers. The feeling, yeah, I I think I.
Just enjoyed the whole moment in.
Terms of a pain scale, 100% sneeze, but I'm wondering if you
could cover an eye that has a hair in it and relieve the
pressure because having to always sneeze would make you be
like distracted constantly, yeah.
Once I I got a piece of metal stuck in my eye when I was
grinding and that you you had to get it picked out as a whole
gross thing. But then I had an eye patch and
it did relieve some. It was better, but you kind of
what you're saying is lose an eye or nearly sneeze.
But forever. Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know. So you like if you put an eye
patch on, yeah, it will relieve it, but you're losing an eye it.
Also depends on at what point of the nearly sneeze you're stuck.
If it's like then you can't do. Anything.
Well, it's not that you have to do that face thing.
Yeah, I think you do that face thing because you're trying to.
You're embracing the sneeze. You're getting ready to do it.
It's. Just that tickle in my nose,
then yeah, definitely the sneeze.
All right, would you rather have a constant 2 second delay on
everything you hear, or A2 constant 2 second delay between
your brain telling your body to move and it actually happened?
I think I'd rather the delay in moving 'cause I I just get into
a rhythm of planning around it. Look, I have hearing problems as
it is and it's extremely frustrating.
Like I feel like I've already got a 2 second delay and trying
to register what people have said is really annoying.
The only thing with the moving one is it's more dangerous.
Probably more instances where you need to move immediately.
Then yeah, let's. Just say you're in a perfect
world where there is no danger. Then yes, yeah, they're hearing
they're moving on, moving. One would you rather have?
This is the last one would you rather have a clown horn go off
every time you sit down? Oh, have a sitcom laugh track
play every time you stop talking.
The laugh track. Yeah, love track.
Yeah, the horn would be too intense.
Yeah, I'd work. I'd work it.
Yeah, the clown. Horn you'd actually just line up
your end of your conversation to have a punch.
Punch line, everyone. The end of my sentence.
But the clown horn. I think you'd have to explain it
every time. Yeah.
You sat down and be like, it's not me, it's the.
It's the horn. Yeah, it's some.
It's the. Horn, Yeah.
Anyway, good ones we've been nailing these would you rather I
actually really want to make sure we're getting them out to
you guys because I want to hear your answers Yeah to these
things we. Actually really appreciated it
over from the last episode. We had some people write back to
us, Oh yeah, and saying what they would pick out of these.
So if you're listening, do that, Write that in the comments.
If you're on YouTube, you're on Spotify.
I think you still do comments or socials or whatever, anywhere we
want to know. Yes, we do.
Even if you want to just DM us the answers because you're too
embarrassed, do it. Do it.
All right, well, let's dive into this social load element.
The reason we go through these, I want to call them mental load
topics because it is a part of a mental load.
It is part of mental load is it's so it's so relatable.
And like Blair mentioned earlier, it was our best
performing episode and best like episode with feedback because
it's just the mental load one was because it's so it explains
so much of what goes on without being spoken.
And so that's why we really like to highlight all these different
kind of facets of how it might play out.
And the social load one is specifically relevant to us.
We've gone through it and we're still going through it because
we're still relatively new to this area and we're still
relatively new to our new church and just a few other things like
that that we still, you know, have kind of a fresh perspective
on the social side of things. So I think it's a really
important one, but there's a few ways it plays out for people.
And like I said, it's different across the board, but there's a
few different kind of angles it might be playing out.
So one is the practical social load, similar to mental load,
meaning practically one of the partners carries the burden of
maintaining arrangements to catch up with people,
maintaining their kids social lives, responding to invitations
for things, being the contact for planning events and you
know, managing, especially when you have kids in the mix.
Remembering kids, friends names, remembering kids friends
dynamics, dietary, like all this stuff practically that comes
into having a social life. Absolutely.
And I think sometimes, like, for me, I would fall into this trap
quite a bit because, you know, when you were having kids and
you weren't working, like in my head, I think I was naturally
like, well, you'll take care of that because you're not working.
And then I had this year where I was staying at home with the
kids and you were working. I'm like, hold on, hold on a
minute. This is not the same like me
staying home with the kids was working.
So we had to really work through.
Well, you, you still take a brunt of a lot of stuff, but we
share on different loads different.
Well, yeah, we we share on different ones, right.
So like you will take most of the social calendar, especially
with the kids and things like that where I'll take mental logo
for food and what we're eating or whatever else.
So we have those conversations going through, but we need to
start having those conversations.
And I really took a for granted until I was able to experience
what you were experiencing staying home with the kids.
And certain people will find it more natural to just fall into
those roles, either because of who they are and their
personality and their preferences or because of their
situation. So like you said, when I was
home with the kids, I was actually the one that would go
out most of the time with the kids or or be interacting with
friends. You didn't have as much free
time for that. So it's not a bad thing.
It's not to say, oh, it's not working.
Well, if one person is doing more than the others, the
reality is it's never going to be fully balanced.
Yeah. It's not about having it
perfectly balanced. It's about that conversation
and. You're, it's about being aware
too. It's about being aware what it
is. So for example, for me, I now
have a tool to check in. It's like, Amy, how are you
going with the social load? Like, is this too much?
Like if I start seeing Amy getting overwhelmed?
And so if I'm not actually checking in to see how she's
going, then you're just gonna be overwhelmed.
And and so it's giving you the conversation or tools to work
through that together. And a big one for us, the
probably the biggest way that this played out was when it came
to not so much anymore, but when it came to social dynamics.
I carried the weight of a social dynamic a lot more than Blair
did in terms of tension or pressure or making sure people
are happy or making sure I'm saying things the right way.
That was a big concern for me. And so one of the practical ways
that was overwhelming and is no longer that big of an issue is I
would kind of own that process for my own social dynamics and
my my own family. And that would include planning
things, inviting people to things, making sure I'm
communicating what I need to with my family.
And then there was times where I would then be doing the same
thing for your side of the family.
And then I'd just be like, I'm too burdened with making sure
everyone is happy. And I think there was a lot of
mental health stuff going on with that too.
But that was a practical way of it's, it's not just that I have
to do that. It's that then I'm like carrying
the burden of making sure people are happy.
And so then they were like, can you respond if it's your family
or your friends or can you communicate, communicate this
thing that's probably super simple, but just just
communicate it because it's weighing on me.
Yeah, a little bit more. So that was a practical thing
for us that, yeah. It was understanding what each
other bring to it, right. So there'll be some
conversations that we need to respond to where Amy's like, Oh,
it's just shutting me down. Like I just I know what to say.
I just don't know how to say it. And then I'll say it like I I
don't have issues as much as like just getting it out there,
but there I then go take it backed Amy.
I'm like, all right, cool. So you struggle with that.
So I've got to this point now I need you to make sure that I'm
not offending anyone being too blunt, right.
So it's that team effort in that's just one example.
That's how it played. Out for us, like, like we said,
it's not going to be that way for everyone.
Yeah. The other twist on the practical
social load that could be playing out as well is one of
the partners not feeling freed up to have their own social
life. Yeah, again, probably plays out
a lot when you have kids and probably more so with mums that
feel like for whatever reason, there's lots of reasons it could
be they are not free to have time to themselves or to grow
that side of their time. And I know the guys at Dad's
group have spoken a lot about this as well, that they didn't
feel OK asking for time because of everything going on.
Yeah, so it's like we call it Doug and there's gonna be mum
guilt too, but we're dads, right?
So we make it relevant to ourselves.
But we call that dad guilt where it's like, well, I feel too
guilty to go out and socialise because you've been at home all
day with the kids. Like I, you know, you go out.
And this was definitely my attention when we had our first
kid. I was like, I didn't go
anywhere. I went to work, came home and
that was it. Because I just felt so guilty
that you were stuck at home all the time.
So we really prioritise you going out and things.
And yeah, that didn't, I didn't do it.
Over time, that became harder and harder, yeah.
So you might be finding you carry the burden of planning it
more, or your partner carries a burden of planning that more, or
you might be feeling like you're not freed up to even plan
anything, so you're pulling back.
So that's one way is the practical side of social life.
But this I think is the more complicated side of it, which is
the in the moment social dynamics or social load.
So in the moment of socialising, there's an imbalance in the load
carried and the the tone that's brought to the table.
So this might be playing out like you go out with friends and
your partner doesn't engage, or you feel like you have to carry
your partner through the social engagement, the social
connection because they're withdrawing themselves.
They don't come at all. You go out and your partner
stays home. They don't even kind of come on
board with the stuff that you've planned.
They don't bring you into conversation.
So you could be going out and your partner is more comfortable
with this group of people and they kind of leave you floating
by yourself. You're not really brought in or
they're not caring for your social needs in that moment
either. And it also might play out where
one partner has become the other person's entire social life.
And I think this is the danger zone with this load because it
causes so many ripple effects where your relationship is out
of balance in terms of social connection or social load.
And there's a inappropriate amount of dependency on the
other partner in one way or another.
So either to make you you comfortable in a position where
you're not comfortable or just to fill their entire
relationship needs that they have and that's not healthy.
So those are those are two kind of ways to look at it.
The practical, what's going on practically or the actual in the
moment social dynamics that are at play are not balancing well,
not healthy, not thriving. So what we did when we were
planning this was looked for a Reddit story.
I went to look for a Reddit story or a few Reddit stories
actually to talk about. And there was just too many
really. Yeah, there were so many, and
all of them valid and all of them were relatable, which is
honestly the opposite issue to what I normally have, which is
trying to find the right specific 1.
And so I decided I got one Reddit story and we'll read
through it. But there's so many.
And it just is telling to me how much social dynamics play out in
relationships, how much of A need this is for a conversation.
We're going to, I'm going to read it, and then I want to hear
Blair's reflections before we discuss it.
Just your immediate response to reading it.
So the title is my husband's antisocial ways are making me
resent him. We just got invited over to some
acquaintances house for the 4th. We know these people through my
sister. I thought it sounded like a fun
day. I hesitantly told my husband to
see if I could convince him to go.
His reaction was what I expected.
He immediately said no and said I could find a million other
things to do. I've been dealing with this for
20 years. He gets mad if I invite our
neighbours for dinner who are our age and we get along with
very well. Every single time I want to hang
out with people who aren't his family he gets irritated.
I need friends in my life and I feel like he hinders this.
Short and sweet. Or maybe I mean I'm so sweet
short. Anyway, what are your thoughts
on this scenario babe my? Thoughts just go towards
scenarios. So I've, I know of people that
have been in this as well, right where, you know, one partner is
usually at home and just that's all they want to do.
And the other person just ended up leaving because it was just
too, I don't know, it was just too much like that.
It was just this drain. It was this, I need this in my
life, but the other person wasn't willing to give it.
And then the response was, well, I'm I'm leaving.
So it's sad. It is very sad and it's not that
those people were bad or anything else like that, it was
just that they loved being at home like they would.
That was just where they wanted to be all the time.
I don't think it was just that though, because I think there
was mental health. Oh no.
No, no, for sure, absolutely. Sorry.
And yeah, exactly right. But that's just where my mind
first went was like these scenarios where, OK, they're
great, great guys, but just just wanted to be at home.
Yeah. And but then then you go into,
if you want to dig into that though of the why, OK, I was, I
was chatting with them and everything.
It was so much more behind the why, but it just, yeah, it was
just, that's where they were. I think it's a common dynamic
that plays out and it's it's a symptom of more and it doesn't
even necessarily look like a symptom.
I don't know if people so in this situation, for example, he
might not and sort of sounds like he's not aware of what is
holding him back from these things.
I doubt that he genuinely just never wants to go out for a
healthy reason. I love being at home and I would
prefer to stay home, but I definitely don't never want to
go out. And the times where I am
resistant to going out, I can tell is because I'm in a bit of
a depression or I'm just low or I'm overwhelmed or I just can't
be bothered or I'm anxious about what's going on.
There's a lot of things that pull me back from the social
things. And yes, there would be ones
that I genuinely, I can't be bothered doing that.
Yeah. But if it's every time outside
of just his family, I thought that was telling.
He would do it with his family and that's it to me.
I'm like, oh, immediately, that makes sense.
His family's, like, so comfortable to him.
Yeah, that they don't really count the same way that other
social dynamics might. There's got to be something more
that's holding him back. Yeah.
And if for those that have been following with us for a while
now, you would have heard us talk in great lengths about, you
know, our job with dad's group. So it's about the it's
essentially working with dads on that perinatal periods before
birth and after birth of their baby.
And how many dads actually go into isolation, right?
So one in 10 dads suffer from post nodal depressions.
One in five mums suffer from post nodal depression.
So it's a lot more common in women than men, but it's still
there, right? And for a lot of men, what we
would do is go into isolation because that's easier for some
reason, you know, when we're struggling, we're more likely to
isolate. We remove ourselves from
situations and that could be work stresses or family dynamic
stresses into in regards to, you know, what's my identity now
that I'm a dad? Like, I don't know what that is.
I don't know what that looks like.
And I can relate to a lot of these.
We became parents. That was genuinely a big
struggle of mine. It's like, what do I do now?
I can't do the things that I liked doing before because it
cost too much, right? Or it was or.
The time was. Too much, the time was too much
or it was actually more of a danger.
And you take those like you take risks differently when you
become a parent. Yeah.
And for me, again, I isolated myself.
I removed myself from being social.
I removed myself from everything else other than other than work
and it took a toll. I didn't get to that point, I
don't think, but it was definitely still there.
And I see it so much in men. It definitely happens with women
too. But again, I'm just speaking
from a man's perspective and the conversations that I have
regularly with men is this is a common response to external
struggles and internal struggles.
Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We've seen it too with like my dad, for example, as he got
older, really just his social life shrunk, shrunk, shrunk.
And I've seen it a lot in older men.
You can see kind of the more extreme play out of it versus
women. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen
that way, but I think there is something that that along the
way gets out of balance and then becomes too hard and you haven't
necessarily looked into what it is like.
There's obviously a reason for him to not be engaging, but the
other side of it is the way he's reacting to his wife when she's
trying to get him to engage or trying to include social things.
So she says he gets mad, he gets irritated, he seems dismissive
and and frustrated when she's listed these things.
So it's not just that, oh, this is sad.
Look, he's pulled himself out of social things.
It's actually also he's, he's letting that affect how he's
reacting to his wife. And that's going to be also
letting impacting her social dynamics as well.
Because she's got to then explain why he's not coming.
She's got to then build relationships on her own.
She's got to then explain to him who these people are that she's
spending time or the story she's heard.
She's got to relay all of that to him if he's going to be
brought into her social life at all because he's not there.
And so there's all these things that then play out that cause
division between the two of them if they're not careful as well.
So. One thing is good thing is quite
interesting and there's a lot of research around this too.
So from the journals of Geo Ontology from Oxford Academy.
Don't ask me how to say it properly, I don't know, there's
lots of words. But something is quite
interesting is this research highlights that as men age,
their social networks become more restricted, while women's
networks are more reverse. So older women are significantly
more likely to to have bridging potential, meaning they act as
the link between different social groups like neighbours,
distant family and hobby groups. Men, by contrast, often have
redundant networks where everyone they know is also known
by their spouse. I was very reliant on their
spouse. So according to research from
the University of Chicago published in in this place, men
are far more likely to have spouse only social lives.
This means if the marriage ends or the spouse passes, the man's
entire social world effectively vanishes overnight.
Yes. So it's pretty intense.
And again, this is something I've heard before and I haven't
had, I haven't dug into it enough.
And I want to dive into this more because I even see it like
even around me, I'll see it like I was even seeing it with him
myself. I was becoming more and more
isolated. You're becoming more and more
social. And I see it with a lot of men
around as well. Which there are so many reasons
why this is not ideal. Yeah.
So many different things are affected by that.
Pulling it back a little bit, and you kind of touched on some
of this. How does this develop for one?
And I want to remove too much of the generalising element of it
because it could be for you as well, regardless if you're an
older man or not. So this is relevant for
everybody. But how does, how does social
isolation or social imbalance develop over the years in a
relationship? And it starts with fatigue
parenting. That's one of the ways like we
spoke about. I think that's probably the
biggest one. I would be really fascinated to
see a study of social lives before, during and after
parenting and how it's impacted and how it's connected.
New environments. So anything new, all these new
things. When you're a child, you do have
new environments, but you've got a lot of systems around you that
are consistent for the most part, unless you're a missionary
kid like me that help you maintain friendships and even
even just the system of your parents who will be kind of
imposing their own social lives down, that helps keep it
consistent. Once you're an adult, it's all
new. You're building all of it.
Even if you're in the same town, there's a whole bunch of new
stuff. People leave, people get new
jobs, you get a new job, there's new neighbours, there's like all
this new environment and, and every time there's a newness,
you have to rebuild and that can feel exhausting.
And some people don't step up to the plate on that.
Probably the biggest 1, and it probably ties in under all of
these things is insecurity. The way you view yourself, the
way you think other people view you, the stories you're telling
yourself, those things impact how you present in the world in
far greater ways. And I think many of us give them
credit for, and it can start from a child from childhood.
It can be a story you tell yourself from childhood.
It can be an accurate story that's based off something that
truly happened. Or it can be a story that is
based off your read of what happened.
And those things sit in our brains and they become self
fulfilling prophecies in some ways because of, as we've said,
the things you tell your brain it focuses on.
And so if you've told yourself growing up that you're not very
good at friendships or people don't really like spending time
with you as you become an adult, and then you're adding in all
these new dynamics that also make it difficult, you could
just double down into that. Yeah, something that I'm
thinking through now, and this is true for myself, is like
relationship, male relationships can be very tiring because
they're not safe. So a lot of masculine
relationships about like especially in Australia is
really tearing down. But for you, I don't get teared
down, right? So I can see how, like, in
people's relationships, like for men, well, their whole
relationship becomes to their partner because their partner is
the safest person in their world emotionally.
So they're not as likely to be teared down emotionally by their
partner. For a lot of people, and again,
this is all speculation, I don't have the research behind this,
but it's just me putting all these dots together.
I want to hang out with you more.
I feel safe to hang out with you.
The reason why when I was struggling socially, I would
just hang out with you all the time because that was safe.
But you were safe. Yeah.
You know, the anxiety of what are people going to think about
me or what are they going to say about this thing?
Like I would so worry about all those different things, like,
you know, I know these people have these sort of expectations
with how I should look or behave or whatever.
And not that women don't get this.
So it's not minimising this for women.
I'm just saying I feel like this is something for men that is
impacting this for them. So we talk a lot in my line of
work too, about how in a lot of Australian masculinity culture,
it's really emphasise you do not show weakness, right?
And this, the script is changing here, the culture is changing,
but this is still what a lot of men deal with is you don't show
emotion, so you don't show tears, you don't show weakness
because if you do that, you're weak, you're bad, you're all
these sorts of things. And so for a lot of men, it's
like, well, I want to feel what I feel.
And if I go out, I can't feel that.
But if I'm at home, I'm more likely I'm safer to feel that.
Or if I'm with you, I'm safer to feel what I feel.
I don't have to put this mask on again.
Women, you have your masks and I completely acknowledge that.
Have them, have them. Embrace them.
We're just talking about, again for this, we're more likely see
it with men. Research shows it plays out more
for men and I'm just trying to unpack the why more.
Partially it might not feel safe because of like people deeming
you as weak and blah, blah, blah.
The other side of that is all of you are so afraid of that, that
the other part that doesn't feel safe is people feeling
uncomfortable when you show emotion.
Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's not just everyone's
so horrible. Every time I talk to them it's
actually like not not only do we get worried about feeling
judged, but we also then feel awkward about people feeling
awkward about emotion or. Over appreciating it.
It's like, oh, I've shed a tear in front of these people and
they're like. Overly, it's.
Like, oh dude, just let me feel what I'm feeling, you know?
Whereas I think generally speaking, female relationships
are are a lot more emotionally vulnerable and open.
And even you were talking about how, you know, people have, it's
not strong like that kind of perspective of like it's weak or
whatever. I think girl relationships,
generally speaking, you connect over the thing that irritates
you the most or like I've had, we had this conversation
recently where I was connecting with the wife because we were
complaining about this, like this thing, it's not even an
interesting story, but we're just like, Oh yeah, that's so
frustrating. And and she's like, yeah, that's
so frustrating. That happened to me two and then
we kind of connect over that, whereas you wouldn't sit there
and be like, oh, that's so frustrating.
And it's just kind of this like more.
I don't I don't know how to describe it, but it's just more
like practical. You would say it, you'd be like,
this thing happened to me and the other one would be like
bummer. And that's kind.
Of the conversation, men, men more typically connect over
hobbies, I feel, or interests, not negatives.
So it's like, you know, yeah, I think, I think that's it.
And it like to be clear, it can be negative, like really
negative, but it's not always negatives like like whiny,
nitpicky or like toxic. It's just, it's almost like,
it's almost like problem solving outside of my body and then the
other person's problem solving outside of theirs and we're
verbally problem solving together.
Whereas you guys, if it's practical, I think it's easier
for you to be like, oh, this is what I would do.
So I've heard you come alive when you're talking about trades
or like practical things about fixing things or cars or like
gym, like these things that kind of a little bit more clean cut
and practical, but not so much the emotional dynamics that are
at play. Stuff as well because, you know,
for women, you've seen other women, you are watching other
women do that yeah, exactly. Men don't do that naturally.
And so not that we can't, but it's like, you know, the, it's
so funny. I'm meeting with a bunch of
organisations at the moment on, on men's mental health stuff,
right. And like the biggest challenge
we have, there's amazing, amazing resources, amazing
programmes, all this stuff. The biggest challenge is not the
content, it's getting the men to rock up, you know, because we
don't naturally do that. It's like, you suck it up, you
deal, you just move on. You, you know, whatever to
getting them to actually take their own self care seriously
or, or working through those emotions.
I think that's why we don't talk about it as much because we
don't really know how to work through it.
We don't really know. What do you talk about?
Yeah, it's like you share something's like, Oh yeah, that
sucks. What am I supposed to do now?
Yeah, So it's, it's, we haven't really had that modelled before.
Like you don't see that and you kind of take on what you see.
Right. I don't think you guys need to
connect the same way that we do. No, I don't think it needs.
It's the same with the mental load thing, right?
Like there will be natural definition between unique people
with different natural preferences.
And so it's not about it's not necessarily about men need to
learn how to do this the same way women have because it
doesn't work that way. It's.
Not yeah, we're not saying all right man, you need to women do
it this way and it works for them.
We need to do the same thing and not at all What we're really
trying to draw out though is like, are you even aware that
you're doing it? Yeah, are you even aware that
you're in that place and you know and with your if you're a
partner of someone, even though it might even be a man like.
Right. So we we we're really focusing
on men here, but it's not a men issue.
It's an everyone issue. This is more more likely in men.
So your other partner is like, well, cool, if your partner is
stuck in that position, do you know how to have that
conversation to help them out? That's the point that we're
talking about here, where we're talking about gender stereotypes
here and, and typical gender behaviour is just to try and
highlight some things that could help you with that conversation.
So women, are you having those interactions?
Are you putting yourself in a position to have those
conversations? Because we see that working
really, really well. Men, do you have a hobby?
For me that is a huge one. Like I have not had had healthy
hobbits. I haven't had.
I have never ever. Hobbits.
Never once, none of my life I got a button for that.
Never. I haven't had healthy habits
since having kids. Like I don't do sport anymore, I
don't do these things. Recently I've been putting some
stuff in place and it's been amazing.
It's great. I'm feeling energised.
I'm feeling like my cup is filled and, and, but I was
effort to actually do that and it took me so long to work out
like, what is it that I, I actually like doing?
And the big thing is that you've helped me with over the years,
though, is like, all right, cool, well, you're not there
yet, but what can you do now? And there was a lot of us in
that in that time. You didn't have that approach of
like Blair, sort your stuff out, you're socially awkward or
you're socially isolated. Now go be social.
It wasn't that. It was like, cool, let us go for
a walk. We started, we literally started
with let's do a 10 minute walk and it was just getting us,
getting me out of the funk of that and then growing and luring
that together rather than an accusation.
And that was really, really helpful.
And so from my word rant there and talking about hobbits
randomly that I just really needed to recap why we're having
these conversations and why we're sharing about these things
because it's it's helping equip you to have the conversation,
but it's also helping to equip you to identify that within
yourself. Yeah.
Where are you at? And evaluate that, sit on that
and then move forward. And like you pointed out, the
topic of men and isolation is a specifically relevant one for
just because of the work that we've done and we've talked a
lot about it. So that's why it comes out a
lot. But yeah, it's actually it feeds
into the next reason this might develop, which is mental health,
huge reason. And and tied into a lot of these
things, mental health, often one of the things people kind of
look at is, is withdrawing from social life.
So that is a huge sign that something might be sitting in a
way that's not helpful or healthy for you mentally.
And so the big thing that I think is a good test for if this
is a healthy social life or not for you and for your partner is
what's your norm, your baseline? What have you been doing your
whole life? What's the kind of like, this is
who I am and this is how I interact.
If something's not functioning in that way anymore, that's a
sign that that you should have this conversation.
Some people will never have had a healthy social life.
And so it's worth exploring that too.
But like after our kids blares social approach was drastically
different to what it had been when we first got together.
And so it was very clear that there was something unhealthy
going on there and it was a trigger for us to have that
conversation and explore those things.
And so whenever there's something, whenever something
out of character is happening with your partner, it's, it's a
lot of the time easier to see it as the partner watching the
other partner than it is to see it about yourself, especially if
you're not in a good mental space to kind of work through
what's happening for yourself. So if you notice something out
of character for your partner, it is a good trigger to be
curious and have that conversation and explore it
gently and start to figure out what is not working and what
needs to change for it to work better.
So mental health, huge reason that people start to have
imbalance in their social lives, burnout, it's all connected,
feeling awkward and feeling judged.
I think that comes right under insecurity.
Just the the awkward vibes. And I, I am a, a more homebody
person than Blair 100%. And I'm much more comfortable in
social circumstances than I was before.
But I'll still find like there's this times where I'm like, Oh, I
just feel, I just feel uncomfortable because I'm like,
my social battery is completely depleted and I'm tired and I
feel awkward. So that can also be good.
And the other thing is, and you mentioned this before when
you're reading that study, the other reason that social
withdrawal might happen is because your partner has always
handled it. So if you are like that study
was talking about and your partner has always handled your
social life and it's that dependent relationship on your
partner and suddenly they're not handling it anymore because
they're they've passed away or they're unwell or something
shifted with them or you're no longer together, then your whole
social foundation has crumbled with that one person.
Which is why it is such an important conversation.
Have why it's such an important thing to be in a balance and be
aware of so that you're you're setting yourself up and your
partner up in a way that is sustainable and healthy long
term. You know, I want to share a
snippet of what we've been through in that area because we,
you know, we've had to work through a lot.
And even though we do this podcast, we don't want the
assumption that we're just speaking out people from a place
of, you know, data or something, you know, we speak out of a
place of experience. Like I I've had probably the
longest, like standing mental health struggles and probably
the deepest and most full on. But all of those things have
affected Amy so much, you know, and but it because it again, it
is a teamwork thing. So we take each other's stuff,
we work through it with each other.
So anyway, the for for me in this deading here, I was very
much like I, I just lost so much confidence in who I was, right.
I remember when I was younger, dude, I used to just, I loved
running parties. I loved socialising.
I was out nearly every night, like not partying, just seeing
people, right? I was just always social just
loved it. I just thrived in that.
I just, my battery was just filled from being around people
all the time. And then I got into like a
leadership position and I, we had started having kids and,
and, and COVID as well, and I just started becoming more and
more isolated because I didn't know where I like would sat with
people. And so there's that element and
then you become a parent and you just tied all the time.
Or like I said, we were prioritising you getting out
because it was all new and I was getting out.
I was getting out for work. And so we wanted you to get out
and just to get out of the house, right.
And to, to get that your battery recharge that way.
But with that too, because I wasn't filling up my own cup,
it's in a way I was just getting more and more low, I guess, and
just again, losing that sense of identity of what's my life when
it's just me, you know, when I'm just having fun.
What's that even look like? And then COVID was a whole level
in Melbourne with the lockdowns. But then leaving that season,
that's probably, that's been a four year journey for us of what
I had breaking into that. Like when we moved out of
Melbourne, I just felt so awkward.
I genuinely felt so, so awkward. And I just didn't know how to
have conversations anymore. I didn't know how to relate to
people anymore because with the lockdowns you just lost all
interaction. So it was this big social
anxiety that creeped in. I didn't know know how to
actually break out of that. And it did take intentional
effort. You know, something that Amy's
really been encouraging me with not pressuring me.
And that's a big distinction there is that, you know, why am
I waiting for everyone to invite me?
Why don't I do what I was already doing?
Like I was, again, I was the person that would invite
everyone to come and do something.
And I stopped doing that. And I stopped because I felt so
awkward. I felt like I was rocking after
these things and like, man, what am I?
What did I just say? I was so weird and I'd make
these random jokes and, and stuff and I just felt so weird.
But yeah, that that was where I was at.
And, and that's why I want to encourage people to, you know,
reflect. If you're feeling like you're in
a similar place, like reflect, like, are you there?
Why is it that you don't want to leave the house?
Why is it you're don't invest in friendships.
It is hard, genuinely has been a hard four years.
And part of me when you're talking is like, well, actually
that time where you were quite insular was probably very
important for you because back when you were super social also
was masking a lot of stuff exactly avoiding, you know,
thinking and internal reflection.
And yeah, true being so, it's, it's not, it's not one's good,
one's not. And it's not that every season
needs to look the same because it won't when you have little
kids, it just will not look the same.
And it probably shouldn't look the same because it's not the
same. And so it's not about trying to
make it be like, oh, it's not the same as it was.
Go back to that. Or to diminish what you learn in
the process because that's super, super valuable.
But it's more about your intentionality and what you're
aiming for and what you're putting in place and having the
conversation, being aware of it. I can understand when you're
tired and you're working full time and you've had kids, kids
and you're getting older and you just don't like what people talk
about and you just can't really be bothered and you got things
around the house you like doing. I can understand why it would
feel like it's not worth it because it does take that
energy. It might not feel important to
you and your partner might feel like they're enough, but it is
so important. It's it's something that takes
that energy for a good purpose. It requires discomfort for a
really good reason. Almost everything good in this
world. Comes through discomfort, a
season of discomfort. And so yes, it might feel
uncomfortable, it might not feel like a priority, but The thing
is that these things that start small become big divides.
It's not just a divide in terms of, oh, look, you're going to
get to this age and you're not going to have any friends
because then the person's like, well, what, what's the benefit
of like, I can take that I'll own that.
I just won't have friends when I'm older.
That's fine. It's actually the divide that
starts to set you and your partner on a, on a course where
you're not only not connected socially, but you're dividing
and, and bringing space in, in driving a wedge.
And that actually means your relationship is less and less
healthy and intentional and intimate because you're not
engaging externally, you're not getting your cup filled.
You're either totally dependent on your partner or you're
running out on empty and reacting to your partner like
this person in the story because you haven't got anybody
inputting. And that is going to be setting
up your relationship for a lot of difficulty down the track.
You're missing out on one of the core human needs.
So yes, relationships are hard. A lot people might be listening
to this and be like, yeah, but it's so much easier said than
done. You can't just like be like, no,
I'm going to have relationships. Magic.
They disappear. We've walked that journey so
much over the last few years. It's not about having a
bazillion really, really good friends.
And it's not even about having regular deep conversations with
other people. It's just about being in
community and doesn't have to start with finding someone who's
going to have a deep, meaningful conversation with you.
It can be as little as having a conversation with someone that
you walk past on the road or someone who's checking you out
at the grocery store with your checking out.
Your grocery is not checking you don't talk to the people
checking you out. No, that's great.
That won't end well either. So the cost of carrying the
practical load is isolating. It's frustrating.
It can be disappointing, it can be, it can be embarrassing.
If you're anyone like me that you like struggle with the
dynamics and making sure people feel OK when your partner is
withdrawing themselves and they're not coming to the table
socially, it's also really awkward because then you have to
explain why they're not here, why they didn't want to join you
for dinner. You have to go to things by
yourself or you have to give your apologies, that sort of
stuff. It becomes very complicated.
That's one of the costs, removing yourself socially.
Your perspectives narrow. You're you become an echo
chamber. You just are in your own world
with your own interests and your own perspectives, and you don't
have those voices other than your partner and your family
members inputting into that. Your confidence can quietly
erode. Like we just explained with
Blair's experience, your partner's carrying more than
they should. You can become overly dependent
in your relationship. Small insecurities grow louder.
You start to shrink in areas that once gave you life, you
hold, you hold yourself back from things that actually could
really fill your cup and really give you a sense of purpose.
And over time, that withdrawal doesn't just protect you from
discomfort, it actually also makes you more uncomfortable in
a, in a longer term way. So when you are looking at this
in relationship, it's just about finding a balance.
It's just about finding something that's going to work
and bring you guys closer together bit by bit to where you
would like to be in the long run, where you'd like to be as a
couple, where you'd like to be as individuals, individuals and
where you'd like to be as a social community with other
people as well. So we've got some practical
tools that we can work with. One is the practical side of the
mental load element of this, which is just make it as
practical. If you're having difficulties
because one person's carrying too much of that, that load
practically Speaking of organising it, keeping up with
people, you know, remembering people's names, all that sort of
thing. Make it as simple as you can.
If it's if it comes down to needing to literally write out a
list of the things that come into your social load like
scheduling play dates, remembering birthday parties,
buying birthday presents, messaging your mom, whatever The
thing is listed out if you need to and say this is what I'm
dealing with, with this mental load.
Can we share this load a little bit?
Get as practical as you need to strip it back until it's
manageable so that you're not carrying everything on your own.
So that's one way. Just break it up in 2 sections.
A really practical way, especially in the early days
when you've got little kids, is trading off nights of the week
or something like that. Being like, you go out with your
friends this night and I'll go out this night and just like
making sure that you're factoring in time similarly to
how we suggest with date nights together, factoring in time for
each of you to have time with your social community and
freeing that person up so they can do that without any kind of
guilt around them. Putting social plans in the
calendar. That's my, I'm so bad at this.
Like I just, I'll be like, yeah, we should catch up with these
people. And we say like every month for
a year and we never actually put it in the calendar.
Yeah, just schedule. If it's three months ahead,
schedule it there. If that's as far ahead as you
need to do it because of like your life and family life, which
is what we find, at least it's in the calendar.
And eventually it'll tick around and then your kid will get a
virus and it won't work. You won't be able to have dinner
with them and agree on what works for you now.
So you really liked a lot of outdoorsy adventure type hobbies
and it wasn't gonna fly for some of those to be a regular thing.
Yeah, when we had kids. Well, it's.
Really funny actually, that you bring that up because it's it's
it's really. I'm not gonna dictate this for
Amy. OK?
So if we look at like what we do for each other's birth
birthdays, right, Amy's birthday present every year as she goes
and has a day to herself, like for me, that's my worst
nightmare. But for Amy, like if I do what I
think Amy needs without consulting her, I might not be
helping the situation. I might actually be fueling it.
So for me, Amy organisers, we go for a walk or something like,
you know, in our little swamp planned that we have up the
road, we'll go for a family walk and like that.
I love that. But for a me to do that for Amy,
is this going to 'cause she's not going to enjoy that, That's
not going to be her thing. So really the conversation, you
have that person in mind, right? So if Amy's stuck in isolation,
then I'll be like, all right, where are you at?
So having an understanding of what is actually feeling that,
what is it anxiety, that what is a tiredness, which is all
legitimate, what is it? And then walking with Amy
through that or like, what? What is something that has
seemed to cheat for you right now?
Not this grand thing, but what's achievable for you right now?
And then it's a matter of. But again, it's like helping Amy
come up with that herself rather than saying what she needs
because otherwise I'm. I'm just not going to be able
to. Yeah.
And there have been times where you specifically have been like,
hey, I was thinking of getting this friend of yours to come
around for this thing. Is that something you want?
And I'd be like, no. It's not that it's not an issue
of the friend, it's just that Amy's not wanting to see a
friend. That's not what feels like it
would help me right now. Yeah.
So have that conversation together and have that
conversation with your partner in mind.
So there's there's also, like we've mentioned, all this stuff
that goes on mentally with this kind of a dynamic playing out
the mental health side of things.
And so when you're navigating that practically, there's a
whole bunch of things to explore about why you're withdrawing,
what is sitting behind that. And we're going to make a
resource that you can run through these because I've got a
bunch of questions to reflect on.
So talk about it is one of my things here.
Talk about why have you withdrawn?
Like we had so many conversations with like together
when you were going through this social awkwardness about what's
happening for you. What what do you feel in social
times? Like even down to like, what
questions do you ask people? Amy is an investigator.
Like honestly, like she will see a situation and this has really
impacted our whole relationship and even our family, right?
There's a situation and inappropriately too, like if I'm
not in the mood for it, we don't go there.
We don't like the attitude or response.
It is what it is. That's something that we don't
accept. It might be like it is what it
is for now. Let's check back in tomorrow or
a week or whatever, but it's we know we do revisit that because
we want to make each other stronger and we want to be
stronger individually. Where we do that is by
investigating. You know, that's just what Amy
naturally does. So we've shared before last
week, you would have heard me go on a massive rant about Amy's
coaching. This is this is exactly what she
does for her work. But she does this naturally is
why she's such a good coach because she does it.
She's like, I want to know what's going on.
I want to know because then we can actually address to not just
leave it as it is. And she, what she does is she
works with me, she works with their clients.
I'm not her client, by the way, but on and helping us realise,
no, we, we've got everything that we need.
She just helps with that reflection of identifying the
situation and identifying what you already have to and showing
you how you can walk through it. So it's absolutely amazing.
If you want more information on that, reach out on our socials
or on our website to, to find out more about Amy's coaching.
But you just bring it to our relationship naturally.
Thanks, baby. Yeah, well, and I'm going to
bring it to you guys this week in the document that I'm making
with a bunch of questions to ask yourself or your partner to
explore what's going on. Because understanding that it
almost takes out like I'm going to say like 70% of the trouble,
just understanding what's going on frees you up so much.
Then there's there's really practical things like if you are
feeling anxious, but you're willing to put yourself out
there, What are some things you can prepare yourself for before
you go into those social environments to start to build
back that social muscle? And things like picking one
person you know is going to be there and one question you want
to ask them, and that having that as your goal at that social
event. And that's it.
You don't have to have a huge conversation, just have that one
goal in mind and then you can rest in knowing you've done
that. So there's some practical things
I'll put on there as well about you're ready to go.
What do I actually do to prepare myself for that instance when
I'm there to make it easier? And if you haven't had community
in a while, and this is a really important one because a lot of
people would be like, yeah, but where do I find friends?
And I see this on the Facebook pages I'm on all the time being
like, I don't know where to find friends.
Mostly the mum groups. It's so true.
If you don't have a community that you can immediately think
about, this is where I find friends.
It is really hard. We are so grateful that we have
church that's a part of our everyday, every week routine
because that is an immediate community that it's not always
easy. In fact, it's often not easy,
especially in the beginning to feel like you're a part of your
friendships or growing a social dynamic there.
But it is a, an immediate community that we have of a pool
of people, school drop offs, sports that you're involved in.
There's a, there's a lot of communities that you can lean
into a little bit more. And again, instead of setting
yourself up to be like, I've got to find a best friend at soccer
when I drop my kid off, don't lean into that.
That'll just shut you down. But instead of just put a tiny
little goal there so I drop my kid off at soccer who's one
person I can say hi to. Yeah, that was one big one for
me actually, with church, like I I struggled, you know, social
anxiety, whatever Amy put the challenge to me who's just one
person you can have a a short conversation with.
And that's where it started was like, I don't have to try and
make me and make that best friend or meet everyone.
This, I'm just gonna start by finding one person.
If you're one person, is someone that you say hello to and that's
it. That's where you start and
that's achievable and you grow from that point.
And the the catch phrase that I've got for this all the time
is that people love to talk about themselves.
Yeah. So if you're feeling awkward
socially, just lean in. Like I sometimes I catch myself
and I'm like, Amy, stop asking questions partially because of
who I am, like Blair just mentioned before, but just ask
them questions about themselves. And it almost always breaks the
ice. Not always, some people really,
really hard to get answers from, but at least you've done your
best. You know, that's a really good
tactic for when you're going into places.
And we're also going to talk on this document about how you
raise this with your partner because it's one thing to
recognise this might be out of balance.
It's another thing to then raise the conversation with your
partner in a way that they're going to hear it.
And the reality is a lot of the time with these things, you're
not on the same page at the beginning.
You're not both thinking about this topic and trying to figure
out how to navigate it at the same time.
This happens with us all the time.
We talked about it last episode where we were doing the
declarations process together and we even were on the same
page coming into that conversation in terms of the
importance of it. But we weren't on the same page
in terms of how we were feeling in that moment ready for the
conversation, and it just didn't work.
So that's OK. But there are some ways for us
to communicate about this that will help our partner understand
the importance of it and help us to start doing that exploration
with them to make the conversation alive.
And it's going to be a lifelong conversation.
It's going to be a long term exploration of what's happening,
but at least you're starting to soften that conversation between
the two of you so you can work on it together.
So that's the social load. It's.
So much you talk about this I. Feel like it do 3 episodes on
it. Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, so sorry about just like cramming in all the all the
practical things quickly at the end we.
Would love to hear from you. What's something that you got
from this? What's something that we didn't
answer? As we did mention, this is a
massive, massive topic. All these mental loads, these
load sessions, we always get so many questions.
So write them in because then we can actually address them
specifically. That's a lot easier for us
rather than painting a general picture was what which we will
which, what, what, which is what we've just done.
There we go. Thank you.
So write to you guys. Understood what you said.
So write in what's a specific question that you have?
And we will answer that. So either in our socials or the
next episode. So write in our so specific
questions because we want to be getting the exact answers to
you, not a generalised picture. So hopefully this has started
the conversation for you with your partner or for yourself,
but also join in this conversation with us.
We want to hear from you. Write in Amen.
Brother, good chat, all right? Awesome, good chat.
See you next week.