1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,680
He gets into this point where he
gets frustrated and he feels 

2
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,640
like he's stonewalls, but so he 
won't engage in a conversation 

3
00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,880
anymore. 
Then a little bit later he'd be 

4
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,160
like, oh, I shouldn't have even 
got that frustrated before. 

5
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:11,920
And then he's just like, well, I
just won't bring it up. 

6
00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,560
Yeah. 
And I think there's even stuff 

7
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,560
in there as well. 
Hello. 

8
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,560
Hey welcome guys to honey. 
We need a chat. 

9
00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,760
We a married couple doing a 
podcast on the importance of a 

10
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,680
communication. 
Yes, when communication stops, 

11
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,840
bad things happen. 
So we want to get better at 

12
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,160
communicating so we bad things 
don't happen as much. 

13
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,320
Yeah, that's who we are. 
Yeah, So welcome, Welcome guys 

14
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,840
to this episode, this Reddit 
chat episode. 

15
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,680
It's not only Reddit chats today
though. 

16
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,800
We have another listener. 
I'm going to say send in because

17
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,800
it's not a write in. 
So we have a special audio story

18
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,080
that was sent in by one of our 
chatters. 

19
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,560
Chatters, What's a chatter? 
A chatter is one of our honey. 

20
00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,760
We need to chat fam bam on the 
subscription platforms Patreon 

21
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,200
and or Spotify subscription at 
the moment. 

22
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,440
If you are not a chatter, go 
check out Patreon or Spotify 

23
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,040
subscription. 
We got extra episodes there 

24
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:12,560
also. 
It helps us out a lot. 

25
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,600
We're really trying to work on 
growing this podcast. 

26
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,400
We've had such an incredible 
season so far in the two months 

27
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,080
that we've been running, with 
just over 2 months we've been 

28
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,280
running. 
We'd love to, we'd love to grow.

29
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,040
We'd love to really invest more 
time in this. 

30
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,680
So yeah, if you would like to, 
we'd love your support over at 

31
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,960
Patreon. 
Extra content, extra input. 

32
00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:37,200
The chatters have been really 
engaged and inputting into the 

33
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,600
content they've been giving us 
suggestions for. 

34
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:41,960
Would you rather they've been 
giving us suggestions for 

35
00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:45,040
outros, that kind of thing. 
So if you're interested in being

36
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,200
a bit more involved, up on over.
Yeah. 

37
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:49,720
Boom, boom. 
But anyway, today one of our 

38
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,480
chatters has sent in an actual 
audio recording, so you get to 

39
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,880
hear his voice, which is 
exciting for us. 

40
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,480
That's not the only way you can 
send in stories. 

41
00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,320
If you want to send in a story, 
please feel free to email us at 

42
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,080
honeyweneedachat@gmail.com. 
It can be anonymous, it can be 

43
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,240
the secretive as you want. 
But this is a special edition 

44
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,000
where he has sent in his own 
voice explaining his story. 

45
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,200
But before we get to that, we're
going to break some ice. 

46
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,440
So the first would you rather 
it's would you rather clog the 

47
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:23,120
toilet on a first date or first 
day at a new job? 

48
00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,760
First day at a new job? 
Not even. 

49
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,240
Oh, no, I think you said first 
date. 

50
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,160
Heck no. 
Yeah, I'd rather first date. 

51
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,800
Well, yeah, because first date, 
a new job, you've got everyone 

52
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,000
there. 
You're going to be the toilet 

53
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,040
clog guy or girl. 
First date. 

54
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,280
But a job even people don't have
like at a job, it's like, I 

55
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,320
don't know, I would way prefer 
that than. 

56
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,440
No, because like later on, later
on, you're more like, for me, I 

57
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,640
I envision that you would later 
on joke about it with your 

58
00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:54,560
potential partner. 
Yeah. 

59
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,280
In the future where at work 
there'd be the talk behind the 

60
00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:59,560
back. 
That's the guy. 

61
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,040
The clock. 
Yeah, but I would rather that. 

62
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:02,160
Really. 
But you know what? 

63
00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,880
You can get around it at work, 
and I may have done this before.

64
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,000
Oh, what do you want to hear? 
I have two stories. 

65
00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:09,960
OK. 
I don't know if you want to hear

66
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,040
them, but they're very funny. 
Go. 

67
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,080
For it. 
Number one. 

68
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,520
Number one or number? 
Two, number one, I, I went to 

69
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,520
the bathroom. 
It wasn't purely my fault, just 

70
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,600
to be clear, but I went to the 
bathroom at a, an establishment 

71
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,560
that I was working at and it 
would not flush after I went to 

72
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,520
the bathroom like for multiple 
reasons. 

73
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,160
And so I just went up to the 
manager and I was like, someone 

74
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,360
has clogged the bathroom. 
Just letting you know, it's 

75
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,440
someone's clogged the bathroom 
because it was in the disabled 

76
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,400
toilet. 
That's where we went because it 

77
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,880
was. 
And so she's like, oh, thank you

78
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,120
for letting me. 
Know so much of your secretive 

79
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,240
lies will be coming out in this 
podcast. 

80
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,400
Yeah, well. 
Do you want to know an even 

81
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,240
worse one that includes you? 
No. 

82
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,360
You don't want. 
To, I mean, yes, yeah, all 

83
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,640
right. 
This is funny because these two 

84
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,760
instances that you planned on 
me. 

85
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:08,520
No, I I used to live next door 
to friends when we first 

86
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,080
started. 
No, it was early on in OH. 

87
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And I lived in a very, very 

88
00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,800
small apartment. 
What did I do? 

89
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,279
No, you didn't do anything. 
It wasn't you. 

90
00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:19,560
But you were coming over and I 
really needed to go to the 

91
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,920
bathroom. 
But I was like, I'm not going to

92
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,200
do it in my apartment because 
this is such a bad story and I 

93
00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,080
feel like I've got to regret. 
I've never told you this. 

94
00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:33,240
I really apologise if you, 
you'll know exactly who you are.

95
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,400
I apologise about everything I'm
about to say. 

96
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,000
They weren't there. 
I was, they had gone away and I 

97
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,560
had their key. 
And so I was like, I'll go to 

98
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:49,440
their bathroom and and because 
if I went in our in my 

99
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,080
apartment, it would just not be 
pleasant. 

100
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,320
It's such a small space. 
We are still early on. 

101
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,600
I think it might have actually 
been engaged, I don't know. 

102
00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,400
But so I went in there and then 
I remembered that they used to 

103
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,600
talk about their toilet had a 
lot of issues with plumbing, so 

104
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:05,560
it wouldn't. 
Flush properly. 

105
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,440
And it didn't flush properly, 
but I was like, that's right. 

106
00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,200
I've got their key. 
I'm cleaning their house while 

107
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,600
they're gone. 
So I've got their key. 

108
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,120
I'll come back later and I'll 
fix it. 

109
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,440
And so you came over. 
I was a bit like flustered 

110
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,800
because I didn't know when you 
were going to come. 

111
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,120
You came over, we hung out and 
whatever. 

112
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,560
And then I suddenly remembered 
that I'd left their key on their

113
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,040
bench and I'd locked their 
house. 

114
00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,240
And I was like, Oh, no, oh. 
My gosh, not only have I not 

115
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,480
cleaned their house, I've left 
something in the bathroom that 

116
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,000
if I don't explain, they're 
going to come home to this and 

117
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,600
so you're over. 
And so I was like freaking out. 

118
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:41,640
I don't know if you remember 
this. 

119
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:42,840
I was like, do I break into the?
House. 

120
00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,720
Yeah, yeah. 
I was freaking out because I was

121
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,080
like, oh, I've left their key 
and I don't remember what excuse

122
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,080
excuse I gave you that I'd left 
the key there. 

123
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:50,760
But anyway. 
Maybe you were starting to clean

124
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:51,920
the house. 
Maybe because I needed to clean 

125
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,840
the house. 
And so you, you didn't break 

126
00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:55,320
into their, you broke into their
house. 

127
00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,080
But you didn't break anything. 
Just yeah, I think you went 

128
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,360
through the the laundry window 
or something and you got the 

129
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,960
key. 
But then I was like, if he goes 

130
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,600
in there and it's really bad, 
how am I gonna like excuse this?

131
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:13,560
Anyway, essentially you got in, 
got me the key and then came out

132
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,320
and I was like super panicked. 
And so I somehow made some 

133
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,080
excuse of like, I just need to 
go check on something and left 

134
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,880
you in my apartment. 
And I just quickly went and 

135
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,280
dealt with it was fine after 
that. 

136
00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:26,040
Just to be clear, I think it had
actually flushed itself or 

137
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:27,240
something, I don't know, 
something weird. 

138
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,760
Magical poop. 
Oh my God, it wasn't poo because

139
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,000
I don't do that. 
Yeah, me either. 

140
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:33,960
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

141
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,480
So I've experienced both. 
Of these. 

142
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,360
I've experienced both of these 
scenarios and neither I would 

143
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,440
definitely pick the work one 
over the 2nd and I apologise to 

144
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,640
my friends if you. 
Hear this, They were your 

145
00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,160
friends. 
They were friends, everything 

146
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,320
was fine, but it was a bit 
scary. 

147
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:57,040
But heaven forbid I admit to my 
boyfriend slash fiance or even 

148
00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,440
my husband until we're 10 years 
of the child why I needed him to

149
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,080
break into their house. 
So have we broken the ice? 

150
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,800
We've broken something. 
We've broken our relationship. 

151
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,880
Is that a child? 
No, I think it was actually my 

152
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,360
throat. 
I really broke something it. 

153
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,320
Was like a wheeze, breath little
laugh thing. 

154
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:19,880
I don't. 
Know did you have another one, 

155
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,920
not another wheeze would you 
rather oh. 

156
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,720
Yeah, I do. 
Yeah, I've got one more do. 

157
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,000
You still love me. 
Look. 

158
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,280
Are you still attracted? 
To me, I've got another 

159
00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,240
question. 
None of that ever bothers me, by

160
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,040
the way. 
I know, but we're not super 

161
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,800
gross people like that. 
No super open with that stuff. 

162
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,720
We get teased about that a 
little bit sometimes. 

163
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,360
We don't go to the we're not the
couple that goes to the bathroom

164
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,320
in front of each other. 
Or fart in front of each. 

165
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:48,480
Other No, we don't. 
We don't. 

166
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,680
Really. 
Unless you are about to. 

167
00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,640
Have a epidural. 
Yeah, and then you just fluffy. 

168
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,480
And I can't stop. 
Yeah, All right. 

169
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,920
This is more of a phobia one. 
OK, Would you rather be stuck in

170
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,800
a phone box with 10 snakes or 10
tarantulas? 

171
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:08,760
10 tarantulas. 
Yes. 

172
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:09,760
Absolutely. 
Yeah, easy. 

173
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,320
Yeah, that's all. 
That's all I heard because the 

174
00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,480
snakes could jump like I I was 
just thinking like I could do 

175
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,040
that, wedge myself against the 
top if I need to, and the 

176
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:18,800
tarantulas like crawl, no. 
They go up this. 

177
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,160
Yeah, but snakes jump like you 
would be, yeah. 

178
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,560
They well, yeah, I don't know, 
but if they're trying to eat 

179
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,040
you, which snakes don't do, I 
don't think they'll be trying 

180
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:26,880
to. 
I reckon. 

181
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,880
I reckon actually now that what 
you said that I actually reckon 

182
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,000
snakes because. 
Tarantulas are going to try and 

183
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:33,840
eat me. 
No, no, no. 

184
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,120
But that will climb up the sides
and then climb on you if you're 

185
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,440
up there. 
Yeah, but are they as poisonous?

186
00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,280
It depends on the type of snake 
and the type of. 

187
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,640
Well, I guess tarantula is the 
type of spider is. 

188
00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,440
If they were pythons, then I 
would go snakes. 

189
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,160
Yep. 
If they were anything from here,

190
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,440
then I would go spy tarantulas. 
Yeah. 

191
00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,960
Cool. 
Well, I feel like the ice has 

192
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,680
been broken. 
The ice has broke. 

193
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,080
Well, in that case, let's move 
on to the stories. 

194
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,640
So today's theme is, is it 
stonewalling question mark? 

195
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,120
And if you have not listened to 
our Four Horsemen episode 

196
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,040
episode, I suggest actually 
jumping across to that one and 

197
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,160
starting with that because we 
essentially run through the 

198
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,160
Gutman Institute. 
John Gottman is a relationship 

199
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,400
psychologist, incredibly clever 
man, and the government 

200
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,360
Institute have this concept 
called the Four Horsemen, which 

201
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,920
the four communication styles or
relationship styles that 

202
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,240
indicate that your relationship 
is not heading in a great 

203
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,320
direction and stonewalling is 
one of them. 

204
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,520
So if you haven't listened to 
that one, definitely have a 

205
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,240
listen to that first because it 
will step you through all four 

206
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,360
of them and they kind of all 
kind of connect to each other 

207
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,120
then come right back to this 
one. 

208
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,560
Because we're going to. 
Deep dive a little bit more into

209
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,760
is it stonewalling and the 
reason I'm questioning that is 

210
00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,120
it's not always going to be 
stonewalling. 

211
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,360
So just be stonewalling could be
like a bit of a one of those 

212
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,640
what I call them trigger words 
or like a a tokenistic word 

213
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,560
probably a trending word maybe. 
And so I don't think that it's 

214
00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:12,880
all going to be stonewalling we.
Can't dig into that. 

215
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:20,880
Yeah, let's dig right in, honey,
we need to chat. 

216
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,640
So first of all, we're going to 
start with our chatter. 

217
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,960
Hey, Chatter. 
Let's listen to the chatter. 

218
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,120
Hey there Amy and Blair, I'm a 
father of two and have been 

219
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,680
married to my beautiful wife for
coming on 13 years now. 

220
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,360
We have an amazing relationship 
of both incredibly tolerant and 

221
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,400
understanding of each other's 
shortcomings and very rarely 

222
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,200
disagree or get upset with each 
other. 

223
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,720
This is a great thing, but also 
leans into the issue that I'd be

224
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,400
interested to hear your opinion 
on. 

225
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,440
Because we don't get upset with 
each other much, we also don't 

226
00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,880
tend to openly discuss when we 
are upset. 

227
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,520
Instead, we are both guilty of 
stonewalling as you both put in 

228
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,800
an earlier episode. 
If we encounter an uncomfortable

229
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,040
situation, one of us will tend 
to shut down and wait for the 

230
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:18,560
negative feelings to pass by. 
They always do, but I'm aware 

231
00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:21,280
that doing this leaves issues 
that could be resolved with open

232
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,080
discussion. 
So here's the question. 

233
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,000
How would you open up a dialogue
about something that your 

234
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,000
partner has done to upset you 
when you know that one of you is

235
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,640
upset and could potentially go 
into that fight or flight and 

236
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,240
shut down? 
I know this is an issue that 

237
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,440
doesn't have an easy solution. 
The old communicate just 

238
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,200
communicate isn't gonna do it as
we need to set that safe space 

239
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,840
up and if one of us is upset, 
setting up the safe space 

240
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,600
becomes very tricky. 
Keep up the great conversation 

241
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,800
peeps, and love from me and 
everyone else at Dawnhaven. 

242
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:58,520
Cool. 
Awesome. 

243
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,000
Well, thank you Chatter for 
sending that. 

244
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,080
And I just want to start by 
saying your voice is very 

245
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,840
soothing. 
And we made a comment after we 

246
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,200
heard the first time. 
What'd you say? 

247
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:08,280
You said. 
May. 

248
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:09,520
I don't know about. 
It's very soothing. 

249
00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,880
It's got an epic voice. 
Yeah, it's very. 

250
00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,000
I don't know what the word is 
like classic or. 

251
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,800
I feel like, I feel like I'm 
sitting down at my granddad's 

252
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,640
fire and I'm watching my 
granddad in a dressing gown, 

253
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,320
drinking a whiskey. 
Yeah, maybe. 

254
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:27,520
Yeah, yeah. 
And telling a story. 

255
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,240
I'm just picturing your granddad
and that's. 

256
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,480
Not a granddad, A granddad. 
A nice Santa Claus type. 

257
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:41,000
Granddad, I just picture someone
in an audible recording booth 

258
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:42,840
recording an audio book. 
That's less creepy. 

259
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,800
Yeah, that is a little bit less 
ageist. 

260
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,400
Anyway, thank you very much for 
sending in that story. 

261
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,400
Really appreciate your 
vulnerability and your support 

262
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,480
absolutely in more than just 
being our chatter. 

263
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,480
So thank you for that. 
But yeah, really, really common 

264
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,920
dynamic that plays out in 
relationships. 

265
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,560
So I thought before we dive too 
deeply into workshopping that I 

266
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:11,200
might just quickly refresh on 
what exactly stonewalling is and

267
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,720
just so that what we've got that
in our heads as we dive into 

268
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,600
these stories. 
So the the Gotman Institute 

269
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,040
referred to stonewalling as 
withdrawing from interaction, 

270
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,680
shutting down, or not 
responding. 

271
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,280
It often occurs in response to 
contempt, which I'll cover in a 

272
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,120
second and can signal 
overwhelming negativity. 

273
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,480
If you feel like you're 
stonewalling during a conflict, 

274
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,880
stop the discussion and ask your
partner to take a break. 

275
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,720
So contempt is another one of 
the Four Horsemen. 

276
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,680
And the interesting thing about 
the four horsemen is they, like 

277
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:44,080
I kind of mentioned earlier, 
they lead into each other, they 

278
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,280
can kind of flow into each other
or interact a little bit there. 

279
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,200
So this is suggesting that 
stonewalling often follows 

280
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,880
contempt and contempt is 
disrespect, sarcasm, mockery or 

281
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,560
insults towards your partner. 
It implies moral superiority and

282
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:00,840
can make your partner feel 
despised or worthless. 

283
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,400
So obviously that would be if, 
if that's a pattern of 

284
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,720
communication from your partner,
you're likely to be reacting 

285
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,520
from a non constructive place as
well. 

286
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,640
And that's where stonewalling 
can sometimes come in. 

287
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,280
So just to give you that 
context, that's what the Gotman 

288
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,760
Institute on their website has 
listed. 

289
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,640
And a quick defining note as 
well. 

290
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,640
Because as I was going through 
these stories, like I mentioned,

291
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,840
I was like, is it stonewalling? 
And I don't want to be quick to 

292
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,440
be like, oh, stonewalling. 
Just like people are like quick 

293
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,240
to say, oh, he's a narcissist 
or, you know, to throw those 

294
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:32,800
things around, say I've got 
trauma. 

295
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,560
And there's, there's words that 
become widely used that maybe 

296
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,920
aren't quite accurate. 
So I did a quick search to see 

297
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,600
if there was a, an easy 
definition defining the 

298
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,160
difference between stonewalling 
and maybe just needing space or 

299
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:49,960
just needing being overwhelmed 
or something like that. 

300
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,960
And I saw an article by 
psychotherapist Marni for 

301
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,560
Fuhrman. 
Marni Fuhrman from the blog 

302
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,720
verywellmind.com, and she said 
in there that there are a few 

303
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,280
different ways that stonewalling
might appear in a relationship. 

304
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,880
There's one which is 
unintentional stonewalling, 

305
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,080
which is often a learned 
response that partners use to 

306
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,720
cope with difficult or emotional
issues, who avoid escalating a 

307
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,200
fight or avoid discussing an 
uncomfortable topic. 

308
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,360
They also might be afraid of 
their partner's reaction and 

309
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,640
then intentional stonewalling. 
In extreme cases, stonewalling 

310
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,280
is used to manipulate a 
situation, maintain control in 

311
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,120
the relationship, or inflict 
punishment. 

312
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,360
If you think your partner is 
verbally abusing you, speak with

313
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,160
a counsellor or therapist. 
So it can actually be a form of 

314
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,960
abuse and manipulation in an 
intentional context. 

315
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,960
There are also healthy 
behaviours that can be mistaken 

316
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,600
for stonewalling. 
It's important to note that 

317
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,240
stonewalling is not the same 
thing as asking for space or 

318
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,640
setting boundaries. 
Asking for time or space 

319
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,840
requires communication. 
When your partner asks to 

320
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,440
discuss something later with the
full intention of coming back to

321
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,400
the conversation, they are not 
stonewalling you. 

322
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,440
So I just wanted to clarify that
because I don't want to just 

323
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,240
fall into that trap. 
I'll be like, oh, stonewalling, 

324
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,560
cut it off. 
So that is from psychotherapist 

325
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,320
Marni Fuhrman. 
All right, so this recording 

326
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,280
from our chatter really common. 
That's a really, really common 

327
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,000
thing. 
And I think something we've 

328
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,240
navigated a little bit, probably
more so on my side, just not 

329
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,800
shutting down and not knowing 
how to talk about the stuff, but

330
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,360
really common. 
So just to start us off. 

331
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,440
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 
Yeah, you're not alone in that 

332
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,440
journey at all. 
I think a lot of the things that

333
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,680
we will talk be talking about 
and a lot of the stories that we

334
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,120
read, and some of them might be 
quite extreme, but I don't think

335
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,280
any of them will be unique to 
those stories. 

336
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,320
Yeah, people writing in what we 
want to be doing is normalising 

337
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,280
struggles, normalising the 
growth, you know, because when 

338
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,800
we when we do that, we kind of 
give ourselves a little bit of a

339
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,000
break. 
We never excuse behaviour, but 

340
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,120
we just when we normalise the 
feeling, normalise the struggle,

341
00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,400
the struggle, I feel like we can
take a bit more of a breath and 

342
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:01,640
then we can be like, all right, 
cool. 

343
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,760
Well this isn't unique to me. 
I can do something about it. 

344
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,319
Yeah, yeah, absolutely that, 
because I feel like there are so

345
00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:11,000
many things in the world right 
now that you're not giving grace

346
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,599
and space to work through and 
wrestle with you. 

347
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,240
It's a very hard line, yeah. 
And so unless you're given, 

348
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,040
unless you are given that space 
for your feelings and your 

349
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,839
struggle to be normalised, how 
will you ever grow? 

350
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:24,720
That just means we're cutting 
off a huge portion of the 

351
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,040
population in whatever topic it 
is saying no, that's actually 

352
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,680
not OK. 
And it's not just not OK, it's 

353
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,160
actually not OK for you to be 
wrestling with that behaviour or

354
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,320
that reaction or that emotion. 
So you just cut them off rather 

355
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,320
than encouraging people in that 
place to grow. 

356
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,440
And I can understand where it 
comes from because there's 

357
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,640
people that have caused horrible
hurt to people. 

358
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,000
And so I can understand this 
kind of like hard line reaction.

359
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,040
But it's, I think it's gone so 
far the other way that we have a

360
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,200
whole range of topics that it's 
there's no grace. 

361
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:59,880
There's no like space for people
to explore that in a safe place,

362
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,720
in an encouraging place that 
encourages you to be better. 

363
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,360
You just are encouraged to not 
be that, which is, I think, 

364
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,160
really damaging. 
I had a meeting today and not to

365
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,520
sideline too much or go down a 
rabbit hole too much, but had a 

366
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,080
meeting today with a bunch of 
workmates and leaders and 

367
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,600
volunteers about the groups we 
run for for dads. 

368
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,320
And they were talking a little 
bit about how they're running 

369
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,000
breakfast for these dads. 
And just to start the 

370
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,600
conversation, just got dads 
talking right? 

371
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,880
And a lot of the feedback that 
they're getting is, you know, I,

372
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,520
I, I haven't really seen guys 
open up. 

373
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,600
I've never felt like I can 
share. 

374
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,520
I feel like I'm either not 
allowed any emotion or the 

375
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,960
emotion that I'm allowed is 
anger. 

376
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,560
And you know, and that's what's 
been modelled to us as either no

377
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,240
emotion or anger. 
Not, not every guy, but these 

378
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,560
are the lot of guys that we're 
interacting with and working 

379
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,680
with. 
And so this is a big thing of 

380
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,600
what we want to do. 
And I love that our chat as a 

381
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:04,520
guy because we want to be saying
like, hey, being a man does not 

382
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,240
mean you show no emotion. 
Yeah, you know what I mean. 

383
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,160
Being a man does not mean that 
you're just angry. 

384
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,400
We can be vulnerable and we we 
should be vulnerable. 

385
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,160
We should be aware. 
And and I hear this a lot from 

386
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,280
our chatter is like they're 
actually very self aware. 

387
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,080
I had a chat with them 
afterwards after they sent this,

388
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:28,000
recording him of a Patreon and 
and talking about how for them 

389
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,320
it's it's it is an issue and 
they want to work on it and get 

390
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,400
better at it. 
But he gets into this point 

391
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,480
where he gets frustrated and he 
feels like he's stonewalls, but 

392
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,600
so he won't engage in the 
conversation anymore. 

393
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,520
Then a little bit later he'll be
like, oh, I shouldn't even got 

394
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,520
that frustrated before. 
And then he's just like, well, I

395
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:44,880
just won't bring it up. 
Yeah. 

396
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,200
And I think there's even stuff 
in there as well that we could 

397
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,480
be discussing too. 
But props to you mate. 

398
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,480
Being vulnerable, being 
intentional, being self aware. 

399
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,280
Love that we get to model that 
and grow in that too. 

400
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,760
And even this is a really simple
thing, but being a man doesn't 

401
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,360
mean that you can't engage with 
the dynamics in your 

402
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,040
relationship and workshop them 
yourself. 

403
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:12,000
I feel like a lot of in the 
cliche space, at least a lot of 

404
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,920
men. 
Are led to that place by their 

405
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,920
partner. 
I don't know if it's because 

406
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,120
they maybe they feel like they 
just can't or it's not normal 

407
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:21,440
for them to be like 
workshopping. 

408
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,800
Yeah, absolutely. 
And well, it's, it's not normal 

409
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,440
to show weakness, vulnerability.
This is a big thing for a lot of

410
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,160
guys. 
And again, not every guy, but a 

411
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,840
lot of guys really struggle with
that. 

412
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,560
It's like, I'm not meant to show
weakness. 

413
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,320
I'm not meant to show feelings. 
I'm meant to be hard, firm and 

414
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,240
get to it, you know, and that's 
what we're breaking the mould 

415
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,920
on. 
Yeah, and if you are a man and 

416
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,040
you're listening to this and 
something in your relationship 

417
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,720
doesn't feel healthy, take a 
SEC. 

418
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,600
Just take a SEC and be like, OK,
I'm not going to just wait for 

419
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,400
my partner to nag at me about 
something or to to constantly 

420
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,240
bring things up. 
I'm actually going to sit there 

421
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,040
and be like, what can I do to 
engage in this better? 

422
00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:58,360
What can I do to look into 
what's happening for us? 

423
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,400
And so I love, I love this as 
well, this question that's been 

424
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,560
sent. 
And I think that's incredible 

425
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,360
because it's coming from him and
he's aware of what's going on 

426
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:10,200
for him, which is a huge step. 
I think straight off the bat, 

427
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,800
the stonewalling if if we're 
going to call it stonewalling, 

428
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,840
because obviously I don't really
know what happens in that 

429
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,360
situation. 
I think the stonewalling 

430
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,280
reaction can be for so many 
reasons. 

431
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,320
And like was kind of alluded to 
in some of these definitions. 

432
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,760
It can be because of how you 
were raised and what was shown 

433
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,480
to you or what was done to you 
when you felt emotion. 

434
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,960
You can shut down because of 
that. 

435
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:39,360
Like for me, my my trap with 
this is that I wrestle with, 

436
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,440
I've seen stonewalling play out 
and it was very unhealthy. 

437
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,360
I've also seen this like 
hounding of needing someone to 

438
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,440
answer you right away. 
And that was really unhealthy. 

439
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,680
And so I fall into this gap 
personally where I'm like, I 

440
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,080
don't want to be naggy and like 
in the moment, just a tacky to 

441
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,400
you. 
And so I try to take a SEC to 

442
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,240
like not be in the moment. 
I try to. 

443
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,080
But then I can also fall into 
the trap of just not bringing up

444
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,680
the thing that is that I need to
bring up. 

445
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,240
And so either it will come out 
later in a not healthy way, or 

446
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,120
it won't come out, but it'll 
just snowball. 

447
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:17,360
Like it'll just become, it'll 
just make everything else feel 

448
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:19,200
worse. 
And so then it's not helpful 

449
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:19,800
either. 
Yeah. 

450
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,680
How you're raised, what you've 
seen, who you are personality 

451
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,000
wise and the dynamic between the
two of you can all input into 

452
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,240
how you react in that moment. 
For me, the biggest answer to 

453
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,360
this kind of thing is easing the
tension of that moment, 

454
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:38,040
recognising like you have that 
you're not great in the moment 

455
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:42,240
reacting to this conversation. 
And that is OK because you do 

456
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,520
not need to be great in the 
moment reacting to someone's 

457
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,080
accusation or complaint or 
emotions or whatever it is. 

458
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,640
You don't need to have a great 
reaction in that stage. 

459
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,680
You need to have a loving 
reaction. 

460
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,360
And that's like, you're 
responsible to still be kind and

461
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:00,960
loving. 
But if that means literally just

462
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,360
saying to your partner, I can't 
talk right now. 

463
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,520
Yeah. 
I'll talk later. 

464
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,000
That's OK. 
That's actually an OK, the 

465
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,680
person might not love that. 
I don't always love that when 

466
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,080
we've done that. 
But if as long as you can 

467
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,240
communicate, like that 
definition said, if you can 

468
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:16,960
communicate that you will come 
back to it. 

469
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,080
And then you also come back to 
it, which I know you said is 

470
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,440
where he wrestles as well. 
That eases that tension. 

471
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,120
I feel like that eases the 
tension in the moment so that 

472
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:29,320
you're not feeling like I have 
to react now, but I'm not 

473
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,600
reacting. 
And then you just get stuck in 

474
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:31,680
the fact that you're not 
reacting. 

475
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,320
I feel like that would just be 
like a downward spiral instead 

476
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,000
just having almost like outside 
of any disagreement or issue or 

477
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,120
anything, having a discussion 
and saying, hey, I'm super aware

478
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,400
that I Stonewall, like I'm 
really aware that I do that. 

479
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,800
So if that happens, we need to 
have almost like a trigger word 

480
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,680
or something that this means I 
will come back to it. 

481
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,720
I just can't talk right now. 
Like I'm just struggling. 

482
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,040
I'm shutting down. 
I can't get my brain to engage 

483
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,280
in this conversation and. 
We didn't have a word. 

484
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,360
We, we literally just say, look,
I, I can't talk right now. 

485
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,120
I'll come back to it. 
And I think coming back to it is

486
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:06,720
an important thing. 
You know, even how he says so 

487
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,880
he's brought up two things, one 
in his message, but secondly, 

488
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,960
what I mentioned afterwards that
we spoke about. 

489
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,720
So the first thing is that he's 
asking like, how do you start 

490
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,400
the conversation? 
And I think it's really about, 

491
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,840
you know, we, we look at a 
struggle that we have, say, 

492
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,760
stonewalling and we're like, how
do I address stonewalling? 

493
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,920
You know, and we have something 
specific that we want to 

494
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,600
address. 
And what we really want to 

495
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,760
encourage is that it's really 
about the culture that you 

496
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,880
foster within your relationship 
with your partner. 

497
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:37,640
And this has been really 
important for us. 

498
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,560
So again, if we don't have date 
nights, if we don't have these 

499
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,280
conversations, we get stagnant. 
We, we struggle with 

500
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,760
communicating. 
We really do. 

501
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,400
But since we've been, especially
since we've been doing the 

502
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,640
podcast, I find that because the
things that we're discussing, 

503
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,120
we're actually implementing in 
our own arguments, you know, in 

504
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,680
our own conversations. 
And so it's we're we've really 

505
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,680
fostered and grown a culture 
within our relationship to have 

506
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,360
these conversations. 
So get onto those date nights 

507
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,800
that we spoke about at home, 
date nights, you know, get onto 

508
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,640
those or have a games night, but
it's a night. 

509
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,920
It's also intentional. 
So it's not just games, but it's

510
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,360
a time where you come and you 
discuss your relationship. 

511
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,440
It's not just the time where you
come and bring up the difficult 

512
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,640
conversations because you can be
dreading those nights every 

513
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,800
single time. 
But how are you investing in 

514
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,440
your relationship? 
In next week's episode, we're 

515
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,000
going to be sharing something 
that we could we believe is a 

516
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,360
really, really great resource to
help those conversations. 

517
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,800
But looking at, you know, 
possibly a book or a reel or a 

518
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,760
podcast episode that you've 
listened to, Hey, this podcast 

519
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,760
is a good idea. 
You know, bring those up as 

520
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,600
topics and say, Hey, what are 
your thoughts? 

521
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,000
So don't come in with an agenda.
Don't come in with, I want to 

522
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,400
bring up these difficult topics.
Just come in investing in the 

523
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,560
relationship like and have that 
approach. 

524
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,160
And then I really, everything 
that we've had to discuss comes 

525
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,000
up anyway. 
You know what I mean? 

526
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,000
The things that we're growing, 
but sometimes we have to bring 

527
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,640
out something specific, but 
that's less shocking because 

528
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,560
we're already in a place where 
we bring stuff up. 

529
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:15,480
Yeah, I think I've been more. 
I've had more things that just 

530
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,960
sit on my brain. 
I'm like, how can I bring this 

531
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:17,880
up? 
When can I bring this up? 

532
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,200
How can I bring this up? 
When can I bring this? 

533
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,280
Up, absolutely, and I do too. 
Like remember how last week we 

534
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,520
was a chat jar and I'm like, I 
don't know how to bring it up. 

535
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:27,920
When can I bring it up and 
whatever else. 

536
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,880
And it was sitting on my mind 
and it was staring and staring 

537
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,040
and staring until I could figure
out how to do it. 

538
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:35,880
Then I brought it up and it blew
up because I didn't. 

539
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,200
Well, it didn't blow up. 
No, no, sorry. 

540
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,360
It was. 
It was exactly because I hadn't.

541
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,920
Yeah, I've been sitting on it. 
It was new to you. 

542
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,600
But my point is more is setting 
the culturing relationship. 

543
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,640
So rather than just coming at 
it, we haven't really been able 

544
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,160
to talk about it. 
When how do we talk about it? 

545
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:53,920
Well, I don't think you just 
bring it up. 

546
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:56,560
Well, I think you have to only 
just bring it up. 

547
00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:01,080
I, I think a really, really 
helpful thing for us, for me at 

548
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,440
least, was there was a time 
where we implemented it wasn't 

549
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,240
just a date night, it was a 
check in night. 

550
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,040
And IA friend of mine suggested 
it on Instagram once. 

551
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,120
I think it asked a question, I 
can't remember where it came 

552
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:17,200
from, but basically you set 
aside a time every week and you 

553
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,800
make that your special check in 
night and you literally do have 

554
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,200
an agenda. 
Like it's not an agenda like my 

555
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,800
agenda. 
It's an agenda that you work on 

556
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,600
together and, and you figure out
what are the things we want to 

557
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,920
check in on every week. 
So it'll be things like how are 

558
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,600
we going with our love languages
or how are we going with 

559
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,920
physical intimacy or how are we 
going going budget wise? 

560
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,120
Like also, is there anything 
that you would like to raise? 

561
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,320
And so it gives a space where, 
you know, it's coming up. 

562
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,320
I've had times when we did that 
where I was like, I don't really

563
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,360
want to bring this up, but the 
amazing thing about it is if say

564
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:50,400
it was Monday nights, I think it
was Monday nights for us. 

565
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,840
You know, something might have 
happened on like Wednesday or 

566
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,440
something. 
And I was like, I really this, I

567
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,800
need to talk to Blair about 
this. 

568
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,480
By the time Monday comes around,
it gives me enough time to be 

569
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,720
like, is this serious enough? 
If yes, I'll raise it. 

570
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,480
If no, I'm good. 
Like if no, it's resolved 

571
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,880
itself. 
I was just like Moody or 

572
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,320
whatever it's going on. 
It gives space for that, but it 

573
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,560
also gives a space where it when
things are brought up, it's not 

574
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,400
some kind of shock. 
It's not like I'm like cornering

575
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,640
you in the kitchen one day and 
I'm just like, hey, when you 

576
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,680
said that thing to me, it really
made me upset. 

577
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,680
It's like we actually have a 
time set aside where we can 

578
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,920
reflect on this stuff. 
We know it's coming. 

579
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,040
We're outside of the emotions. 
We know we will still feel 

580
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,720
emotions when you talk about it,
but we know that that's what 

581
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,160
this time is for. 
But instead of also just making 

582
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,960
all the negative things, you'd 
make it special. 

583
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,480
So you do that thing like have 
it have a board game that you 

584
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,920
play or have a movie or show 
that you watched just on that 

585
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,160
night or get takeaway or, or 
make a hot chocolate. 

586
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,800
Something about it. 
Make it special too. 

587
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,080
So it's not just the difficult 
things that you start to dread. 

588
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,240
And then when someone person's 
like, I can't be bothered doing 

589
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,880
that tonight and the other 
person's like, yeah, me neither.

590
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,720
Like you make it special and you
commit to it. 

591
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,880
That can be a really good way 
for starting that culture that 

592
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,120
Blair's talking about, just 
starting, that culture of being 

593
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,640
able to communicate if it's not 
a natural thing that's happening

594
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,560
right now. 
And I think if I reflect, I 

595
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,600
actually think that was a bit of
a turning point for me because 

596
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,880
until then, I really struggled 
to know when to raise things. 

597
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,840
And I would just, it would just 
sit on my brain and like I said,

598
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,960
it would snowball. 
So I would be, you know, annoyed

599
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,240
about this one thing or hurt by 
this one thing. 

600
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,040
And so then everything that 
Blair would do would feel like 

601
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,360
another thing. 
So then when I had that check in

602
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,160
and I was able to communicate 
what I needed to communicate, I 

603
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,040
actually realised not everything
that he was doing was annoying 

604
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,720
me. 
It was just that I was irritated

605
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,160
and hurt because of whatever 
and, or felt misunderstood, 

606
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,840
whatever The thing is. 
And, and when you're in that 

607
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,200
space, you're not like, like 
just before we started 

608
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,800
recording, I was overwhelmed and
Blair was trying to joke around 

609
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,160
and I was like, I'm not really 
joking around. 

610
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,160
It's not that he's annoyed. 
Like he's the what he was doing 

611
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,960
wasn't actually annoying. 
Well, it wasn't really annoying.

612
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,400
I was just in a space where I'm 
like, I don't have that 

613
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,600
capacity. 
And so, yeah, when you're 

614
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,880
wrestling with something bigger 
or something that's more 

615
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,800
serious, it's hard to just set 
that aside and be normal. 

616
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,120
So I feel like that's for me 
that it was a really practical, 

617
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,520
really easy way. 
And I feel like if it's not 

618
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,800
something that comes naturally 
in your relationship, it's not 

619
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,800
too hard to suggest that that 
tactic. 

620
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,600
And just like, say, when I 
Stonewall in these 

621
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,280
conversations, you know, I, I 
shut down and I really hate that

622
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:30,560
I shut down. 
I'm aware that that's not 

623
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,800
helpful, but then I don't want 
to rock the boat later, which 

624
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,680
was a huge thing for me. 
I don't want to rock the boat 

625
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,680
later when things felt OK. 
And so bringing something up 

626
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:39,920
just was like, why would I do 
that? 

627
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,640
If you don't bring it up, you 
will find yourself stonewalling 

628
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,120
again and you'll find yourself 
getting more bitter. 

629
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,120
And that's when the other 4 
horsemen can come into place, 

630
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,000
which is things like contempt 
and criticism and defensiveness 

631
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,400
because you haven't been able to
communicate through the, the 

632
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,240
more simple things that then 
snowball. 

633
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,200
And so having that, yeah, having
that check in that was like, I'm

634
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,880
not great at this. 
So can we have a night where I 

635
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,880
actually am kind of forced to, 
to confront the things I need to

636
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,800
confront? 
And then that led to a place 

637
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,080
where we don't really need 
specific check in at this stage 

638
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,400
because it just kind of comes up
when it needs to come up for the

639
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,200
most part. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

640
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,160
The other thing I wanted to talk
about was when he was saying 

641
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,400
about how, you know, after a 
while he's like, oh, it's 

642
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,320
something a big deal because 
like you said, sometimes, yeah, 

643
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:28,880
just let it go. 
Like, it's not a big deal to 

644
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,640
bring up and that's fine. 
But if if you stonewalled me in 

645
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,080
a conversation and you didn't 
give me anything, it might not 

646
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,000
be a big deal to you anymore. 
But your reaction can actually 

647
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,040
sit in my mind. 
And I'm like, why? 

648
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,520
Why don't you shut down? 
Like what's going on for you? 

649
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,480
And that's where I was just 
encouraging him. 

650
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Like it might be good still to 
revisit and not necessarily set 

651
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,520
like bring up, like, you know, 
dive back into the issue because

652
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,240
if that's not an issue anymore, 
that's fine. 

653
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,480
But together, discuss, why did 
you show Stonewall? 

654
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,240
Why was that an issue for you in
that moment? 

655
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,920
Why do you think you reacted 
like that? 

656
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,120
And together, diving into that, 
I think is really, really 

657
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,680
powerful and really impactful. 
And I love doing that with you. 

658
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,480
Like after we've had a heated 
conversation and then we go back

659
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,320
to like, why did we respond 
about that? 

660
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,440
Reflecting on it, I learned so 
much more about you and I 

661
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,960
learned so much more about 
myself because a lot of times 

662
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,600
I'm like, why didn't I react 
that way? 

663
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,920
Why did I respond that way? 
Why did I shut down? 

664
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,800
And then so yeah, unpacking that
together is is really, really 

665
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,520
cool. 
So that's what I would encourage

666
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,280
as well. 
Yeah, still revisit the 

667
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,280
conversation and unpack that 
together. 

668
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,840
You do not necessarily need to 
unpack the issue if it's not a 

669
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,320
non issue now, but just is this 
a growth opportunity? 

670
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,800
Is this for you? 
A chance for you guys to bond 

671
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,880
more, to get more closer, more 
intimate and grow together? 

672
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,320
Yeah, because stonewalling goes 
two ways. 

673
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,600
So there's a recipient and 
there's a person that does it. 

674
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,600
A. 
Giver, recipient, I don't know 

675
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,360
the person who's doing it or 
there's two people doing it at 

676
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,320
the same time. 
But so it's, it's, it's got a 

677
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,400
two sides to it. 1 is how it is 
received. 

678
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,480
And we're going to dive into 
that in more stories because 

679
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,320
like I said, it might not always
be stonewalling. 

680
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,800
What's going on for the person 
may not be stonewalling for the 

681
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,560
person doing it. 
It might not be I'm stonewalling

682
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,000
because, you know, I'm shutting 
down. 

683
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,560
I might actually be, I am so 
overwhelmed. 

684
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,640
My brain is not functioning. 
Their intention isn't 

685
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,880
stonewalling, but to the 
recipient, it is stonewalling 

686
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,400
because they know no different. 
And so I was just thinking as 

687
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,240
you were talking, you know, for 
you, you, you Stonewall in that 

688
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,760
moment, shut down and then later
the issue is not a big deal. 

689
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,880
Your partner has received that 
stonewalling is probably hurt, 

690
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,480
frustrated, disappointed, 
confused, whatever The thing is 

691
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,520
by the stonewalling, by the lack
of engagement in that scenario. 

692
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,680
And then either it's just left 
undone for them, like you said 

693
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,320
it, it could still be an issue 
for them, not the the issue 

694
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,040
itself, but the actual 
engagement. 

695
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,440
Or, you know, if it's a pattern 
for them as well, which it may 

696
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,360
be, if they're seeing this 
reflected all the time, they may

697
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,440
then go into stonewalling. 
So from your perspective, you're

698
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:04,440
like, oh, I don't want to rock 
the boat. 

699
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,840
It's all OK now, but they're 
actually stonewalling like so it

700
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,400
could just become something that
builds on itself. 

701
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,719
And so absolutely. 
And the one thing that I didn't 

702
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:18,000
read, but I will just now in the
Gotman summary of stonewalling 

703
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,120
is they talk about the antidote 
to stonewalling. 

704
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:23,679
And their antidote is 
physiological self self 

705
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:25,080
soothing. 
I couldn't say that the first 

706
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,239
time and I can't say it this 
time, but basically recognising,

707
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,199
so they say, recognise the signs
of stonewalling and take a break

708
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,360
from the discussion 
physiologically, self soothe by 

709
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,639
engaging in calming activities 
for at least 20 minutes. 

710
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:41,560
So that means if you know you're
getting heated as you come into 

711
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:46,480
a situation or a conversation 
and you can feel those walls 

712
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,719
going up where the stonewalling 
is about to start you, you can 

713
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,440
start to train yourself to be 
aware of your triggers before 

714
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,800
they happen, which we've had to 
do in different scenarios as 

715
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,840
well. 
Feeling like, OK, I'm getting to

716
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,760
this point and I know once I get
past that point is kind of too 

717
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,320
far and, and putting a fail 
safe. 

718
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,560
Is that the word in at that 
stage where you a circuit 

719
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,480
breaker or something so that 
you're like, I'm not going to go

720
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,800
further down that way. 
I can feel that happening. 

721
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,880
So I need to go do my 20 minutes
of self soothing, whatever that 

722
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,120
might be, mindfulness, shower, 
go for a walk, going outside and

723
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,320
looking at the mountain, 
something like that to calm 

724
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,040
yourself. 
So being aware of those things. 

725
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,880
But the interesting little 
example that they gave, they did

726
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,360
an exercise or an experiment on,
I think it was 30 couples where 

727
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,680
they interrupted couples after 
15 minutes of an argument and 

728
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,480
they just said that they needed 
to fix something tech wise. 

729
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,240
So they had to come in and and 
take a break. 

730
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,240
And so they interrupted these 
couples and they asked them to 

731
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:45,240
go sit separately while they 
fixed this tech, but they just 

732
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:47,320
wanted them to read magazines. 
That's all they wanted to do. 

733
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,760
And then when they started to 
talk again, their heart rates 

734
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,080
were way lower and the 
interaction was way more 

735
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,720
productive and way more 
positive. 

736
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:58,240
And so basically they figured 
out that during that time, 

737
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:00,440
because they're reading 
magazines that are separated, 

738
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,560
they were physiologically 
soothing themselves by reading 

739
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,640
and avoiding discussion. 
So they calm down. 

740
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,400
And once they were calm, they 
were actually able to 

741
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,640
communicate a lot better. 
So, you know, the suggestion is 

742
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,760
taking that time, which we've 
kind of suggested, you know, if 

743
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,800
you're getting overwhelmed, you 
know, I can't talk about this 

744
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,920
right now and taking the time 
you need until you have calmed 

745
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,480
down to talk about it. 
But the really important key and

746
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,440
the reason I'm bringing this up 
again is it's not time to take 

747
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,520
away and be like, they said 
this, they said this, I'm a 

748
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,280
victim. 
And they, and they say this on 

749
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,720
the government side as well to 
avoid the thoughts of 

750
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:33,720
indignation and victimhood. 
So you're not sitting there just

751
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:36,560
being like, how dare they? 
And then having the argument in 

752
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,080
your head and then reinforcing 
the argument, take that time to 

753
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,280
be like, why am I reacting this 
way? 

754
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,080
Especially if you feel that 
stonewalling in yourself, take 

755
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,800
that time and be like, where 
does this come from? 

756
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,080
And why am I reacting this way? 
Or what is it that they said 

757
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,920
that triggered me so much? 
Especially if you have your 

758
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,360
relationships usually healthy 
and you get along really well, 

759
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,440
there's going to be something 
that's triggering that so you 

760
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,640
reflect internally. 
And even if you're the recipient

761
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,400
of stonewalling and you've been 
put into one of these breaks, 

762
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,600
instead of sitting there and be 
like, they always do this, they 

763
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,360
always shut down and they never 
want to communicate. 

764
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,240
And why they stonewalling, you 
could take a SEC and reflect on 

765
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:14,000
yourself. 
Why am I so triggered? 

766
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,400
Why am I feeling this way? 
And maybe even take a SEC and be

767
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,000
like, I've recognised this 
pattern in my partner that they 

768
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,960
Stonewall. 
And so why might they be 

769
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,200
stonewalling? 
And instead of it being like a, 

770
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,520
they're doing this to me, taking
that moment to be curious like 

771
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,960
you suggested and be like, why 
are, why do they do this? 

772
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,320
Like is there anything I know 
about them that might play into 

773
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,360
this? 
And if you can switch that 

774
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,520
break, I reckon that's a game 
changer. 

775
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:37,920
It's not just about having a 
break. 

776
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,560
Everyone just has their little 
argument in the bathroom at the 

777
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,120
mirror and they get more angry 
and then they come back is. 

778
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,520
That what you do. 
Have you never done that? 

779
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,120
Are you kidding me? 
Don't do that. 

780
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,200
I'm serious. 
Is that actually your thing? 

781
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,160
Oh, A. 100%. 
On this picture, you walk walk 

782
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,120
into the bathroom. 
You're like. 

783
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:00,480
I even made a TikTok about it 
one time. 

784
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,760
I don't know if I posted it. 
It was just it was just like 

785
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,080
what you do in the bathroom and 
it was like me at my mirror and 

786
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,000
you make you don't talk but you 
go like why? 

787
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,680
Because it's not talking, but 
it's like talking. 

788
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,040
Why? 
I don't know. 

789
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,840
Don't ask me this. 
Question I'm a normal person I. 

790
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,720
I'm a normal person I. 
Mean yes you are. 

791
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,440
I know you have arguments in 
your head. 

792
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,760
Oh no, yeah, definitely in my 
head, but. 

793
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,240
Not in front of this is what 
Blair does. 

794
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,240
He has arguments in his head and
his hands just get like clenchy 

795
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,440
and I can just see him like his 
jaw's clenchy and his eyes are 

796
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,280
going all over. 
Yeah, because I couldn't. 

797
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,960
See, your mind sounds that much,
much weirder. 

798
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,760
It's, it's I've, it's quite a 
bit weirder. 

799
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,680
I put it up to the weirdness. 
I'm just releasing the energy, 

800
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,560
you're just holding it inside. 
Yeah, but you're looking at 

801
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,320
yourself, getting angry at 
yourself. 

802
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,560
Why am I getting so defensive in
this moment? 

803
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,800
Basically, I think being helpful
to yourself. 

804
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,600
If you know that you can't 
communicate well, you know this 

805
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:58,920
pattern. 
You're aware of it because 

806
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,480
you've just shared it with us. 
What is a way that you can still

807
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,880
communicate that even to your 
partner? 

808
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,600
And maybe you have, but even 
just a lot of these stories like

809
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,480
just having a SEC when you're 
outside of the emotions saying 

810
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,200
to your partner, I really 
struggle and I don't like that I

811
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,280
struggle. 
I'm aware that that's not 

812
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,280
helpful in the moment and work 
shopping with them. 

813
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:18,720
What can we do that's going to 
make this better? 

814
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:19,880
What would make it better for 
you? 

815
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,120
What's going to make it better 
for me? 

816
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,040
When do I see it escalating that
I need to intervene? 

817
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,840
Or, you know, what's a way we 
can put something in place, like

818
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,040
a check in where we have the 
emotions removed and it's 

819
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,680
actually just for communication 
so we know that's what's 

820
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,240
expected of us. 
Being your own helper in that I 

821
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:38,880
think is a really helpful way of
navigating it. 

822
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,080
You know something, since doing 
this podcast I have, I have 

823
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,200
realised how numb I am to the 
thoughts of you being frustrated

824
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,000
at me outside of when we're 
talking seriously. 

825
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:54,640
You don't. 
Care. 

826
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,000
No, it's not that I don't care. 
I just like no you're good but 

827
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,080
it just does not enter my mind. 
Like I'm just so oblivious. 

828
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,000
The guy just picturing you 
yelling at yourself in the 

829
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,200
mirror. 
Well, it's not usually to about 

830
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,040
you. 
Sometimes it's about yeah, yeah,

831
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,560
OK. 
And doesn't happen that often. 

832
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,320
It used to happen more like as a
teenager type. 

833
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,480
Yeah, yeah. 
But just, I don't know. 

834
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,400
It's just, it's, it's good. 
It's refreshing to be like, Oh 

835
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,120
no, I've still got some stuff. 
I've got, I've sort of worked on

836
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,880
some stuff we've got, still got 
a way to go. 

837
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,560
It's actually refreshing to know
that you get frustrated at me. 

838
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,680
Do you get frustrated at me? 
Very rarely. 

839
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,000
See, this is a weird dynamic, 
yeah. 

840
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:31,720
Very rarely. 
One thing. 

841
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,120
I, you know, and I, we had a 
conversation today. 

842
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,880
I feel I bring a lot more 
baggage to the relationship. 

843
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,880
Which we did discuss and I don't
agree with that. 

844
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,280
I think everybody brings baggage
and I don't think it's a helpful

845
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,880
or even possible to some extent 
exercise to weigh that baggage. 

846
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,160
Like it's not. 
You can't compare baggage to 

847
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,760
baggage, and your baggage and 
your way of functioning is very 

848
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,680
external. 
It's very loud and obvious and 

849
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,960
straight away and dealt with 
quickly, but it's also gone 

850
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,440
quickly. 
And, well, most, most of them 

851
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:09,080
are. 
Yeah, yeah. 

852
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:14,520
But whereas mine's a lot more 
slow burn, not super obvious, 

853
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,240
kind of seeps into a lot of the 
ways that I function. 

854
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:21,120
So I don't think it's, well, I 
think. 

855
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,840
I think it's more that I feel 
that my stuff, because it's 

856
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,520
external loud, it impacts others
more. 

857
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:29,440
Yeah. 
Do you know what I mean? 

858
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,640
And that's where I feel like the
impact is different. 

859
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,720
So yours is quieter and more yes
it might be more impactful for 

860
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:39,280
you, but mine I feel is more 
impactful for others. 

861
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,320
I know how you could feel that 
way, but if I'm bitter at you or

862
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,920
frustrated at you silently in my
head and that's coming on, 

863
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,360
that's what. 
I'm saying I'm naive to. 

864
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,200
It I, I know, but if, but you do
like even before you're like, 

865
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,920
are you annoyed at me because I 
was overwhelmed? 

866
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,560
Like you do see it play out in 
my same with my family, like it 

867
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,880
comes out with the kids and in 
the way that I interact with my 

868
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,240
house and that kind of thing. 
So I think again, I just think 

869
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:05,440
it's different and I wouldn't 
want someone like me. 

870
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,160
I would be really mad. 
I would really struggle with 

871
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,000
someone like me. 
But that's what I mean like 

872
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,600
because in my head, you it's so 
internal for you. 

873
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,000
So again, this is the refreshing
part is I feel like I'm seeing 

874
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,480
more of what's going on inside. 
And that's great because now 

875
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,400
it's like, Oh cool, I'm seeing 
and. 

876
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,280
He's messed up too. 
We're. 

877
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,880
Messed up together, no, but this
it's refreshing to know that 

878
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,480
we're growing together because 
up until now I feel like I I 

879
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,240
felt like I was the main 1 
putting baggage on my family. 

880
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,400
I'm really sad about that 
because that's absolutely not 

881
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,680
the case, yeah. 
But again, it's just the the 

882
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,960
beauty of communicating, the 
beauty of digging deep is I can 

883
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,480
see that side and I feel you. 
Can see all the baggage input, 

884
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:54,880
yeah. 
Well, I feel like I'm actually 

885
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,880
more a part of your baggage. 
Where before because I didn't 

886
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,520
know about it. 
Yeah. 

887
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,680
Which is a really, really good 
example of the benefits of 

888
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:12,000
working on stonewalling because 
I know first hand how hard it 

889
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,560
can be to navigate stonewalling.
And I think the erosion that 

890
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,480
that can do to, there's so many 
things that erode, erode 

891
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,280
relationships, just to be clear.
But the erosion it can do in 

892
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:29,160
like just a really almost subtle
but super damaging way is huge 

893
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,960
if it's not dealt with. 
That's why it's one of the four 

894
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,080
horsemen. 
And I think it's also why it's 

895
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,600
not something that's super well 
understood because it's not 

896
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,200
necessarily something we hear, 
you know, we hear criticism, we 

897
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:41,960
hear that all the time. 
We know what criticism is. 

898
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,280
We know what offensiveness is. 
The other one, contempt is a 

899
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,760
weird word, but I like 
bitterness or like hate 

900
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,920
basically is what that is. 
We know those things. 

901
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,480
Stonewalling's like subtle, but 
it's actually it's just as bad 

902
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,200
do. 
You feel like you struggle with 

903
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,480
stonewalling. 
I think I'm, I'm much more than 

904
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,440
you, yeah. 
And I definitely have had 

905
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,600
moments where I have, but I 
think we've got really good 

906
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,800
practical stuff in place. 
I can see my brain doing it. 

907
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,120
And I think that's one positive 
too, is like, it's just because 

908
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,360
this is a pattern doesn't mean 
it's how you are or how you have

909
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,440
to be or how you have to 
interact for the rest of your 

910
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,520
relationship. 
Like that's not it at all. 

911
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,720
You've recognised a pattern and 
you can then work on it. 

912
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,160
And that's one cool thing about 
these patterns is they are 

913
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:23,880
reversible. 
There are things you can work 

914
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,240
on. 
They talk about the antidotes 

915
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:28,120
with these things. 
So it's actually almost exciting

916
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,640
because it's like, oh man, how 
much space is there to grow, 

917
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,400
like to be closer? 
And there is another way. 

918
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,440
And there is another that's. 
Really, really important to 

919
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,000
state and again, going back to 
guys, a lot of guys just want to

920
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,960
see that there's another way, 
you know, and I'm just so 

921
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,840
passionate about that. 
It's just of of sharing these 

922
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,720
things for people like myself, 
guys, girls, whatever, to seeing

923
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:53,040
that there is another way we can
actually grow on these things. 

924
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,560
So when we find something that 
we're struggling with, we can do

925
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,840
something about it. 
Yeah, we can work on. 

926
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,560
Yeah, exactly. 
Yeah. 

927
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,520
Thank you for sharing. 
Yeah, thanks mate. 

928
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:03,520
Really. 
Appreciate, really appreciate 

929
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,800
the story. 
Question is your jumper inside 

930
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,120
out? 
Oh, I meant to say that. 

931
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,600
And even when we were doing that
chat just then I was like, oh, I

932
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,080
need to say that and I still 
didn't. 

933
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,200
Yes it is. 
And this is the reason why all 

934
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,360
of my jumpers are branded and 
not just branded, but branded 

935
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,320
with like companies we've, 
organisations, we've worked with

936
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:26,480
all. 
Camps we've been on. 

937
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,440
All camps have been on so I 
don't really we're. 

938
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,480
Ashamed of all? 
I'm not ashamed of them, I don't

939
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,960
I think they'd be ashamed of me.
I genuinely don't want to put 

940
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,480
their name to our stuff just for
their sake. 

941
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,400
So yes I do need to get well we 
both need to get non branded 

942
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:47,000
hoodies especially as winter is.
We can do our own brand. 

943
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,600
Which is also an option, but 
we've got to figure that out. 

944
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:52,800
That's the whole thing. 
Yeah. 

945
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,640
So yes, my jump ray is inside 
out. 

946
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,960
Please ignore it. 
I've also got tonnes of our 

947
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,080
golden retriever here. 
I was like, I feel like a black 

948
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,400
hoodie today. 
And then I put it on and 

949
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,960
realised my golden retriever is 
blonde golden, you might even 

950
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:06,760
say. 
So we're going to dive into some

951
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,960
Reddit stories now on 
stonewalling as well. 

952
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,800
We'll we'll hear some of these 
stories workshop on how we would

953
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,600
navigate them if This Is Us. 
Hey guys, just wanted to pop in 

954
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,800
and take a SEC to talk about the
extra content you can find over 

955
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:21,920
on our Patreon and our Spotify 
subscription. 

956
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,880
We have a fun little community 
growing over there with extra 

957
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,360
episodes, extra stories. 
We're also going to have 

958
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,880
resources, messages back and 
forth and also submitting 

959
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,560
listener stories through that 
portal as well. 

960
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,840
So outro themes. 
If you want to be a part of our 

961
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,680
closer knit community here at 
honey, we need to chat. 

962
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,880
Please hop on over to Patreon or
Spotify subscriptions and join 

963
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,000
us there. 
We would love to see you. 

964
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,440
Thanks guys. 
Thanks. 

965
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,760
So the next story is titled 
Stonewalling and argument 

966
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,080
escalation. 
During a recent argument with my

967
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,000
significant other, me 30s male, 
her late 20s female, she pointed

968
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,960
out that I have a habit of 
stonewalling her. 

969
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,760
After taking some time to read 
up on it, I realise that's 

970
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,680
exactly what I do. 
I become defensive, emotionally 

971
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,640
withdraw and try to de escalate 
by stopping the argument or 

972
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,680
walking away to cool down. 
However, despite her recognising

973
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,760
that I'm getting emotionally 
flooded to the point where I 

974
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,680
can't rationally respond, she 
doesn't seem to understand that 

975
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,520
I need to stop. 
I've recognised that if I don't 

976
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,920
end up taking a break from the 
argument, I'll just become 

977
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,320
increasingly defensive and 
eventually lash out and say 

978
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,280
things I will always regret 
afterwards. 

979
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,800
I've told her that before 
several times, but it still 

980
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,800
seems like me stonewalling her 
is the only thing she sees as an

981
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,440
issue, not that she keeps laying
an emotional barrage on me when 

982
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,400
I'm clearly at my limits. 
While articles will discuss the 

983
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,240
importance of letting someone 
who's emotionally exhausted take

984
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:48,880
a break, they also often times 
seem to place the blame entirely

985
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,400
on the person engaging in the 
stonewalling behaviour. 

986
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,160
So my question is, how do I get 
her to recognise that I'm trying

987
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,600
to stop the arguments from 
escalating further by taking a 

988
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,280
break from it for a moment? 
I know stonewalling behaviour 

989
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,360
isn't healthy, especially since 
it seems to upset women so much 

990
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,960
anyway, but but pushing someone 
further when they clearly need a

991
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,040
break doesn't seem like a 
healthy option either. 

992
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,640
In general we don't argue that 
much or that often with the 

993
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,920
exception of very recently due 
to a lot of emotionally charged 

994
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,920
things going on. 
But when we do, it always seems 

995
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,360
to end up with me wanting to 
check out from the argument and 

996
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,120
her oppressing me until I lash 
out and say something hurtful 

997
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,440
which then causes the situation 
to further escalate until I end 

998
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,120
up sleeping on the couch and her
being angry at me for days. 

999
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,040
Just to be clear, I think 
stonewalling would hurt anybody.

1000
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,440
Yes, it may be, there may be 
there's a pattern of women 

1001
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,920
experiencing stonewalling more, 
but I think no matter who's 

1002
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,800
receiving it, it would upset 
them. 

1003
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,440
Absolutely, yeah. 
Is that what you were going to 

1004
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:49,640
say? 
Yeah. 

1005
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,760
Absolutely. 
Yeah, This is, this is 1. 

1006
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,680
I think you said at the 
beginning, is it stonewalling? 

1007
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:59,120
Stonewalling, yeah. 
And well, first of all, he 

1008
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,560
doesn't say that. 
He says I'll come back to this, 

1009
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,680
doesn't he? 
So he doesn't mention that. 

1010
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,000
But I can completely relate to 
that overwhelmed feeling. 

1011
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,800
You know, it's just like, oh, 
man, like I feel like I'm 

1012
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,840
terrible at debates, you know 
what I mean? 

1013
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,120
Like, I can have a conversation 
with someone, but when it comes 

1014
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,640
to debates, I get overwhelmed 
and my brain just shuts down. 

1015
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,920
And like, I can't. 
I just can't. 

1016
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,320
I don't agree with you. 
I know I don't agree with you 

1017
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,280
and I know I've got reasons, but
I can't think of any reasons. 

1018
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,880
I can't actually think of what 
to say right now. 

1019
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,000
So I completely relate to that, 
that overwhelmed feeling and 

1020
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,200
just shutting down. 
Like, I don't know what to say 

1021
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,920
right now. 
I don't know how to communicate 

1022
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,120
to you right now. 
It's like in those moments for 

1023
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,960
me, I feel like I'm a deer in 
headlights. 

1024
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,480
Like my eyes is like, what you 
what? 

1025
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,000
You want to what? 
Like, yeah. 

1026
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,480
I I also understand, although I 
don't react the same way, but I,

1027
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,560
I know the moments why I'm just 
so overwhelmed that my brain 

1028
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,480
doesn't think publicly. 
And so it's actually great. 

1029
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,240
I think that he's recognised 
that that's what's happening for

1030
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:04,920
him. 
And I think you're right. 

1031
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,960
The thing that came to mind when
we, when I read this was he says

1032
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,920
in here question is how do I get
her to realise? 

1033
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,320
I'm trying to stop the arguments
from escalating further by 

1034
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,840
taking a break for a moment. 
So potentially that is just 

1035
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,720
maybe he does want to come back 
to it and she just still doesn't

1036
00:50:21,720 --> 00:50:26,200
really get it in my thinking. 
I feel like if you prove 

1037
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,480
yourself to be like, hey, I need
to take a break, I will come 

1038
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,120
back to this. 
And you prove that that's going 

1039
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,800
to happen. 
I think your partner would start

1040
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,960
to trust that. 
And so if you're able to prove 

1041
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,400
to them, you're able to say, not
only do I need to take a break, 

1042
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,360
but I'm going to come back to 
this. 

1043
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,240
I promise you, I'm going to come
back to this and and you 

1044
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:47,720
actually follow through on that.
She's going to have more 

1045
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:50,040
confidence in that. 
I can imagine this playing out 

1046
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,560
as a regular thing where he 
takes a break, he doesn't 

1047
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,040
discuss the thing. 
He shuts down because he's too 

1048
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,640
overwhelmed and he just doesn't 
come back. 

1049
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,640
And that I can see being a like 
almost a panicked reaction from 

1050
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,520
her perspective, being like you,
you don't come back. 

1051
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,360
You'd like, why don't, why can't
you talk about this now? 

1052
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,840
You don't come back. 
And I almost like we're in this,

1053
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,480
I need to discuss it. 
I'm not going to have closure. 

1054
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,400
We're not going to be able to 
get closer or resolve this until

1055
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:13,760
we come back to it. 
But you never come back. 

1056
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,000
You just shut down. 
We had to learn this. 

1057
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,400
Yeah, we had to learn this. 
I still remember that night in 

1058
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:20,840
the rain. 
I don't. 

1059
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,280
Remember very. 
Well, so. 

1060
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:30,040
Then we made out no, it, it was,
it's such a vivid moment because

1061
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,760
I feel like it was so many light
bulbs that went off in my mind 

1062
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,680
and that's why I think I 
remember it so much. 

1063
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,520
And and you said this, you like,
I just can't talk about this 

1064
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,680
right now. 
And it was hard for me to like 

1065
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,080
go, I'm like, no, no, you won't,
you know, and you had to build 

1066
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,040
my trust in that. 
And it seems weird saying it, 

1067
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,680
but you did. 
I, I just, I had this maybe 

1068
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,800
control issue because like, if I
was afraid that if we didn't, if

1069
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,800
you didn't bring it back up 
again, then I couldn't, we 

1070
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,160
couldn't like talk about it. 
And whatever it was that we were

1071
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:06,000
talking about, I'm like, I don't
want to keep going back to this 

1072
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,720
situation. 
So I want to address it. 

1073
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,360
And I think it was this big 
drive for me back then too, 

1074
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,920
because I'm like, I want to be 
better at communicating. 

1075
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:15,960
I want us to be a couple that 
communicate. 

1076
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,360
Why won't you communicate with 
me? 

1077
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,400
And so, yeah, I feel like we've 
definitely experienced that. 

1078
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,440
And for me it was a control 
thing, not out of me trying to 

1079
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,440
be controlling person, but I 
just wanted to be able to make 

1080
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,320
sure that the conversation was 
going to happen. 

1081
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,640
I I completely agree with what 
you're saying, but don't expect 

1082
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,240
that to happen that time like 
that. 

1083
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:37,880
Trust me, built off 1. 
Conversation. 

1084
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,520
It won't be, no. 
It'll be like it took us 

1085
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,920
multiple. 
We had to work on it for a while

1086
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:44,760
about OK, I need you to trust 
me. 

1087
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,360
And I I believe this is sort of 
what you said. 

1088
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,680
I need you to trust me. 
I will bring this up again. 

1089
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,720
And I had to and it was very, 
very, very hard. 

1090
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,120
And it we had to work a lot. 
I. 

1091
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:56,480
Want to know what we were 
talking about? 

1092
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:57,960
It's. 
Probably something really 

1093
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,120
important. 
I'm really intrigued. 

1094
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:01,960
I have no clue. 
Yeah. 

1095
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,840
I think that's, I think that's 
really helpful. 

1096
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,520
And you're saying that, you 
know, this is a pattern and 

1097
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,440
you're wrestling with it. 
You need her to understand, I 

1098
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,280
think one quick challenge as 
well as you need to understand 

1099
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,280
her side. 
So regardless of what's going 

1100
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,680
on, you're wanting her to 
understand something. 

1101
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,520
Maybe take a SEC and try to 
understand her side so that when

1102
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,160
you do come back to the 
conversation, you're not just, I

1103
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,600
need you to understand this, you
do need her to understand this, 

1104
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,400
but you also need to understand 
her. 

1105
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,280
So if you can come to that 
conversation, showing you've 

1106
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,960
taken time to address and 
acknowledge what she might be 

1107
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:37,960
experiencing, I think that will 
speak volumes. 

1108
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,360
But outside of your emotions, 
outside of those moments, sit 

1109
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,640
her down, say, hey, I'm real. 
I really struggle. 

1110
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,280
I'm sorry. 
I recognise that that's hard. 

1111
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,440
I really, really struggle. 
My brain turns off and I can't 

1112
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,960
process and then I snap and I'm 
sorry and I hate the things that

1113
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:54,240
I say to you because they're not
true. 

1114
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,400
I, I just need that space. 
So we need to figure out a way 

1115
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,680
so that I can love you the way I
need to love you. 

1116
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,480
In those conversations, we can 
have the conversations we need 

1117
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,640
to have, but so that I also am 
given space so that my brain can

1118
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,240
process and I can come back to 
it. 

1119
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,800
Because if he's trying to, if 
he's trying to address that 

1120
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,480
issue inside of a heated 
conversation, So you're not 

1121
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,600
going to get anywhere. 
If you come at me later and you 

1122
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,800
say, look, I'm trying to like, 
I, I, I shut down because you 

1123
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,240
keep, I'm, my barrier's going to
be up, my wall's going to be up 

1124
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:26,400
and I'm going to be snapping you
back. 

1125
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,480
It's just, you know, going to go
straight back into the argument.

1126
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,240
If you came at me owning your 
stuff and you're like, look, 

1127
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,240
this is something that I'm 
trying to work on. 

1128
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,440
I, I hear what you're saying, 
how it's hard for you when I 

1129
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,120
shut down and I Stonewall and I 
apologise for that. 

1130
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,040
I really want to get better. 
Like I just need you to commit 

1131
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,200
with me that we're going to work
on that together, but let's just

1132
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,680
explore that together. 
Why do I do it? 

1133
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,640
You know, if I can explain that 
to you or if you can explain 

1134
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,120
that to me, my approach, if you 
come at it from that 

1135
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,600
perspective, I'm like, yeah, I 
want to help you. 

1136
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,320
Like I definitely do want to 
help you. 

1137
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,240
And amongst that I'm going to be
like, oh, that's I'm, yeah, this

1138
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:07,880
is what I'm doing and that's how
you're reacting. 

1139
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,800
Ah, that's going to be a lot 
more. 

1140
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,120
Yeah, exactly. 
And like they said in the Gutman

1141
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:18,040
Institute explanation, instead 
of taking that time between 

1142
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,360
whenever you're having these 
conversations or whatever break 

1143
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,480
you do get or whenever you stop 
those conversations, to just 

1144
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,840
reinforce for yourself that 
she's victimising you in this 

1145
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,400
process. 
Reflecting internally, getting 

1146
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,880
yourself ready in that way, 
reflecting on what's happening 

1147
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,360
for you and what might be 
happening for her is going to be

1148
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,160
so valuable. 
Yeah. 

1149
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,720
Because exactly that if you come
at it and you're like, you just 

1150
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:42,200
keep shutting me down. 
And never she's. 

1151
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,640
She potentially has so many 
conversations that she writes 

1152
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:51,120
serious issues or into her 
pillow on her bed. 

1153
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,360
She potentially has all these 
things that have happened like 

1154
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,520
because we're just talking about
how the conversation is going 

1155
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,280
now, we don't even know what 
you're discussing. 

1156
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,240
And so I think that's as the 
recipient to stonewalling, that 

1157
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:04,320
would be something that I would 
wrestle with because I'd be 

1158
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,520
like, yeah, I get it, I get it. 
But the issue that we're 

1159
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,600
actually discussing is also 
still an issue. 

1160
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,600
So being careful to not over 
shadow the issue at hand as well

1161
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,960
or over shadow her feelings that
she might be navigating, I think

1162
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,320
is really important. 
So I think if you're asking what

1163
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,360
you do, you say, well, your your
question is how do I get her to 

1164
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,360
realise? 
And I think that's a touchy way 

1165
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,640
of putting a question. 
Yes, that needs to happen. 

1166
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,160
That's probably not the aim you 
need to have. 

1167
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,480
Maybe more the question should 
be how do I communicate this to 

1168
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,400
my partner? 
How do I let her know where I'm 

1169
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,440
coming from or how do I start 
that conversation or what can I 

1170
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,600
do to help deescalate myself, 
especially if there's hurtful 

1171
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,400
things being said. 
The all of these things build on

1172
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,200
themselves. 
And so just because there's one 

1173
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:55,240
part that is misunderstood from 
your side doesn't mean that it's

1174
00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:58,280
going to be without emotional 
impact on her. 

1175
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,320
And I think that's an important 
thing when you're addressing the

1176
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:01,560
conversation. 
Cool. 

1177
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,720
Maybe we'll go into the next one
number number trace. 

1178
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:10,880
Number trace. 
Neuro trace boy for boy. 

1179
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,480
Yes OK. 
I think my 35 female boyfriend, 

1180
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,040
38 male is chronically 
stonewalling me. 

1181
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,320
So my boyfriend, 38 male and 
I-35 female have been together 

1182
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,760
for nearly four years. 
We live in a 900 square foot 

1183
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,440
space with his 11 year old 
daughter and our two month old. 

1184
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,440
Needless to say we don't have a 
lot of privacy or personal space

1185
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,640
where we live since we've been 
together. 

1186
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:35,960
Whenever we fight and things 
start to escalate he almost 

1187
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,040
always says something like I'm 
done with this conversation or 

1188
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,840
fine you win or we can't talk 
about this right now because my 

1189
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,800
daughter might here. 
Then proceeds to walk out or 

1190
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,000
leave sometimes for hours and 
give me the cold shoulder and 

1191
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,080
silent treatment all night. 
He usually wakes up the next day

1192
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,560
like nothing happened. 
Sometimes I just try to brush it

1193
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,040
under the rug but most times I 
lose sleep over this type of 

1194
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,520
behaviour. 
I feel shut down every time he 

1195
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,160
does this and when I feel like 
we haven't come to a resolution 

1196
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,440
and it's still heavy on my mind,
I bring it up again in the 

1197
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,600
morning. 
This usually leads to him 

1198
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,360
throwing his hands up, getting 
upset and rolling his eyes and 

1199
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,440
quickly apologising. 
Most times I can tell he just 

1200
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,240
apologising to move on and shut 
me up rather than actually 

1201
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:15,560
acknowledging where I'm coming 
from. 

1202
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,440
He claims he does this when the 
conversation is going in circles

1203
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,080
or he feels I don't listen, when
that's not true at all. 

1204
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,080
I listen to every word he says, 
I just disagree most of the time

1205
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,440
and want him to see my side. 
But when I relentlessly try to 

1206
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,000
get him to see my side, that's 
when he throws his hands up and 

1207
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,360
is over it. 
I will admit I tend to get 

1208
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,680
defensive a lot of the time and 
going forward I'm going to try 

1209
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:38,480
to recognise this and respond 
healthier. 

1210
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,320
I found that there's such a 
thing as stonewalling while 

1211
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,720
Google searching this and I 
think this is what I'm dealing 

1212
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,840
with. 
I feel like our conflicts rarely

1213
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,960
actually come to a resolution. 
I rarely feel understood or 

1214
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,200
acknowledged and often am 
accused of not listening. 

1215
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,160
Today I told him I'm on the 
verge of considering leaving him

1216
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,480
over this. 
I'm already losing sleep being 

1217
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,320
up with our newborn multiple 
times a night. 

1218
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,000
I can't lose sleep over 
stressing about our relationship

1219
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,200
and constantly feeling alone and
invalidated. 

1220
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,320
I don't want him to feel not 
hurt or validated, just like I 

1221
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,440
equally want this reciprocated. 
My question is this. 

1222
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,440
Is this stonewalling behaviour? 
If so, how do we move forward 

1223
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,520
with this in a healthier way of 
communicating? 

1224
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:16,720
I want to work on this 
relationship for the sake of our

1225
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,000
daughter and we have a great 
relationship other than this 

1226
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:20,560
unhealthy way of dealing 
conflict. 

1227
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:24,600
First of all, it's really sad 
that she's considering leaving 

1228
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:25,000
him. 
I know. 

1229
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:26,680
Yeah. 
She says she's got a really 

1230
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,840
healthy relationship other than 
this. 

1231
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:31,760
And it's like, man, this is 
worth fighting for. 

1232
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:33,000
Like, it's. 
Yeah. 

1233
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,120
I mean, people have their 
reasons, and I'm not one to tell

1234
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,440
them what they should and 
shouldn't do. 

1235
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,240
But this is what we're fighting 
for is a healthy relationships 

1236
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,560
and the fight for relationships 
and the fight for relationships 

1237
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:48,480
to get stronger and better. 
Yeah, and for there to be 1 

1238
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:52,760
pattern that throws that out the
window always boggles my mind. 

1239
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,960
And I don't know that that's 
always accurate because I think 

1240
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,800
one thing might be actually 
impacting a lot of things. 

1241
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,560
But yeah, it does seem quite 
extreme. 

1242
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,720
I think the thing that came to 
my mind while I was reading this

1243
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,120
was she talks about how she gets
defensive. 

1244
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,560
And one of the things, again, 
that they talk about in the 

1245
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:12,880
Government Institute is 
defensiveness. 

1246
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,800
So there's. 
Criticism, defensiveness, 

1247
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:21,120
contempt and stonewalling. 
And it's, again, a story that is

1248
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,200
very much on he's doing this 
thing, what is he doing? 

1249
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,560
But she actually said that he, 
in the conversations, talks 

1250
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,200
about how she doesn't listen. 
And she said that usually he 

1251
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,040
throws up his hands when she's 
trying over and over and over to

1252
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,040
let him see her side. 
And so I was thinking, to me, 

1253
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,520
this sounds like there's more 
communication dynamics at play 

1254
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:47,080
than just him stonewalling. 
And if defensiveness is in that 

1255
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:52,200
communication, that is a really 
tough thing to navigate as well.

1256
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,680
And from his perspective could 
be just as difficult as 

1257
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:01,360
navigating stonewalling. 
So I think that's, I'm glad 

1258
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:03,760
she's aware of it. 
I and she said she's going to be

1259
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,440
more aware of that as she goes 
into these things. 

1260
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:10,960
But I think defensiveness in a 
in an argument is super 

1261
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,680
difficult to get past, just like
stonewalling, because you're 

1262
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:16,920
literally putting up a wall of 
defence. 

1263
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,360
And so you don't get further. 
Like it's almost like you just 

1264
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,360
don't get past. 
Yeah, but you do this or yeah, 

1265
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,840
but I do this and this and this.
So that doesn't matter. 

1266
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,720
Like those kinds of things talk 
you in a circle kind of the same

1267
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,240
way that stonewalling would. 
You, we, we had a conversation 

1268
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:37,320
last night about something that 
our oldest boys are going 

1269
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,720
through. 
And we spoke about how we would 

1270
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:44,080
help each other, like address 
the way that we speak to the 

1271
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,920
boys so that they don't speak to
each other that way. 

1272
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:51,040
Yeah, right. 
And how we pull each other up 

1273
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,440
in, in a, in a loving way. 
And you mentioned how you would 

1274
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,360
really struggle with that, but 
you want to do it, but you would

1275
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,720
really struggle with that. 
Is that defensiveness? 

1276
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:00,600
Yeah. 
From your side. 

1277
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,080
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 
How have, because not that I 

1278
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,040
don't struggle with 
defensiveness, but because you 

1279
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,560
brought it up last night, so I 
feel it's a bit more fresh. 

1280
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:10,520
How would you work on 
identifying that in yourself? 

1281
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,760
And then how do you work on it 
when you've identified it? 

1282
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:17,720
That's a good question. 
I just quickly flicked back as 

1283
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:19,640
well to what the Government 
Institute say about 

1284
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,720
defensiveness too, because it is
a tough one. 

1285
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,960
They say the antidote is to 
accept responsibility, even if 

1286
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,760
only for part, and avoid blaming
your partner, acknowledge your 

1287
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,080
role in the issue. 
So I don't know, it's a good 

1288
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,240
question. 
Defensiveness is definitely the 

1289
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,120
one that I see play out the most
with us. 

1290
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,400
And for me in particular, it's 
really, I find it extremely hard

1291
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,240
when I misunderstood. 
So I understand her perspective 

1292
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,480
of being like, I need him to 
understand my side. 

1293
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,440
I it really irks me to be 
misunderstood. 

1294
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,040
And so that's usually where the 
the defensiveness will come in 

1295
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,040
for me. 
I'll usually get offensive 

1296
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,040
because I'm like, yeah, but 
you're pointing this out on me, 

1297
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,320
but what about you do the same 
thing? 

1298
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,800
This instance is my bad, but you
do it all these other times. 

1299
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,680
So I find that really hard 
because I'm like, I feel 

1300
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,080
misunderstood. 
The reality is I still did the 

1301
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:11,320
thing. 
And so I still need to own up to

1302
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,080
that. 
And so I think it's genuinely 

1303
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,520
just quite a personal process to
work on because you need to 

1304
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,880
become OK at accepting the fact 
that you're going to play a role

1305
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,080
in things. 
You're going to bring the 

1306
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:25,240
baggage like we're talking 
about. 

1307
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,760
You're going to bring those 
things to relationships. 

1308
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,800
When there's a disagreement, 
there's almost always multiple 

1309
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,240
sides to it. 
There's almost always two people

1310
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,800
playing into whatever it is 
you're navigating. 

1311
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:41,160
And so I think until you can 
just hear and accept your role, 

1312
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,920
especially if it's already a 
sensitive thing for you, you're 

1313
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:48,520
going to find it hard to just 
have a conversation without that

1314
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:52,040
springing up. 
It's not very practical, but 

1315
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,280
it's kind of just. 
An interesting it sounds like 

1316
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,480
it's more of a personal thing 
because I'm even coming from the

1317
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:00,320
perspective, do I help you in 
this? 

1318
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:05,080
Like how can I help you in this?
You do, I think sometimes like 

1319
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,480
you when you approach things, 
you try to do it gently. 

1320
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:11,360
So I think you do help with 
that. 

1321
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,120
But yeah, I don't know what the 
practical, practical help with 

1322
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,560
that. 
My bigger trigger for defensive 

1323
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:20,800
is if you brought something out 
to me and I'm not prepared. 

1324
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,000
So if I'm not prepared, I can 
find myself very defensive. 

1325
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,120
So I think the benefit for us is
I tend to be the person who's 

1326
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:28,720
brought it up. 
So I tend to have kind of 

1327
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:31,160
already assessed what's 
happening and why it's happening

1328
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,520
and how I'm feeling and how 
you're feeling and try to 

1329
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:37,920
address it more gently. 
If your goal as a couple is to 

1330
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:42,160
be stronger and have better 
communication, you need to be 

1331
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,760
entering into those 
conversations thinking about how

1332
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:46,040
the other person's going to 
receive it. 

1333
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,680
So she could take that instead 
of saying you Stonewall, have a 

1334
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:53,400
conversation and say, I've 
become aware that I am quite 

1335
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,680
defensive in arguments and I'm 
really sorry about that. 

1336
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,680
I need help with this because 
I'm trying to work on it, but I 

1337
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:02,080
find it really hard when you 
raise things in a way that's 

1338
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:04,800
like quick to point the finger 
or you raise things when I'm not

1339
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:06,800
prepared or whatever The thing 
is. 

1340
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,680
Like just assess that for 
yourself and if she can get him 

1341
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:11,720
on side. 
Can you help me with this? 

1342
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:13,680
I think that's one really good 
step. 

1343
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,440
It's so easy when you've been 
hurt while you think you've been

1344
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,280
hurt or you have been hurt or 
something's gone in a way that's

1345
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,400
not constructive to come in and 
be like, you did this. 

1346
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,200
But instead of like just taking 
a second to be like, how would 

1347
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,400
he best receive this for the 
outcome that we want as a 

1348
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,680
couple? 
And think about the words that 

1349
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:33,320
you say. 
I think that's going to really 

1350
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:35,120
help your own defensiveness as 
well. 

1351
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,800
If we're both getting defensive,
I find it really hard to calm 

1352
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,280
down from that if we're bouncing
off each other. 

1353
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:42,440
And that's, again, you still 
kind of like stonewalling. 

1354
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:43,640
You're just bouncing back and 
forth. 

1355
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:45,760
You're both defensive. 
You're not in a great headspace.

1356
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,520
You need to take a SEC, stop the
conversation and come back. 

1357
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,000
I think it's a matter of like, I
really think they should go 

1358
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,280
through this, this, you know, 
like this kind of be sorry. 

1359
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:55,680
That she asks for is there. 
Yeah. 

1360
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:58,240
That's what I'm thinking of. 
Instead of it being, like, books

1361
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,040
for me to fix his stonewalling. 
Yeah. 

1362
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:01,840
That, I think is just an 
important thing across the 

1363
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,400
board. 
First point of call should not 

1364
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:04,400
be like, how do I fix this 
thing? 

1365
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:06,600
And my husband, how do I help 
him fix this thing? 

1366
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,280
Yeah. 
How do you fix yourself? 

1367
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:10,880
Because almost always is going 
to be multiple sides. 

1368
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,520
Yeah. 
And almost always more efficient

1369
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,120
if you start to work on yourself
before addressing those things. 

1370
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:21,120
But even work on those things. 
Work on yourself first, but 

1371
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:22,840
openly. 
With him. 

1372
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,360
With him, you know, I mean, just
like I, I identify that I do 

1373
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,240
this and I really want to work 
on that, you know, it's not just

1374
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,440
a matter of just doing. 
Internally. 

1375
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,440
Because because you could come 
back and then say like, give up 

1376
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:34,880
and doing all this work. 
Yeah. 

1377
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:36,880
And you've done nothing. 
You know he doesn't know. 

1378
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,360
Yeah, it's your responsibility 
until it's communicated. 

1379
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:44,200
And so communicating as clearly 
as you can about how you're 

1380
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,720
feeling, about what you're 
trying to work on, you don't 

1381
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:49,200
have to avoid the fact that he 
doesn't react well. 

1382
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:51,760
Like you can still mention that.
But I think if your focus is 

1383
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:55,400
working there first, I think, I 
reckon that we would find the 

1384
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,680
best transformation in this 
situation by doing that. 

1385
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:02,200
This one, I'm I'm not sure it's 
stonewalling completely. 

1386
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:04,000
Look. 
There might be stonewalling in 

1387
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:06,840
it, but it's a, it's a lot more 
than just, is it stonewalling? 

1388
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,000
It's like, yeah, cool, maybe, 
but there's other stuff in there

1389
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:12,520
as well. 
Look at your history, yeah. 

1390
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,360
How you work as a couple and 
start working on yourselves and 

1391
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:16,880
your triggers. 
Yeah, cool. 

1392
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:18,960
All right. 
Well, that's on stonewalling 

1393
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:20,040
guys and. 
That was good. 

1394
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:22,960
Even just that analysis. 
Is this stonewalling? 

1395
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:26,000
I think it just makes me think 
so much deeper about the 

1396
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:27,320
conversation. 
You know what I mean? 

1397
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:30,240
And and even just the growth is 
just like again, it's not it's 

1398
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,960
not clique cut Stonewaller, 
Stonewaller, it's. 

1399
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,040
Like man, we're so trigger happy
in this world. 

1400
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:39,960
We're so and us as individuals 
so trigger happy to just like 

1401
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,960
point the finger and be like 
that's what it is and sometimes 

1402
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,280
it is. 
But that I just don't think 

1403
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:48,600
there's much to lose by being a 
bit curious about the situation.

1404
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,040
Absolutely. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1405
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,200
Great, great topics, babe. 
Yeah, well, thank you. 

1406
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,960
Thank you chatter again, really 
appreciate your story and thank 

1407
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,960
you to these Reddit people that 
will never know that we'll never

1408
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:01,720
know. 
Imagine just listening to a 

1409
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:05,560
podcast one day and be like, oh,
that's me, that's my story. 

1410
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:06,840
That's. 
My story. 

1411
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,400
Well, if you do, I hope you keep
listening. 

1412
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:14,040
Awesome. 
Well, chat TBT is gonna shut us 

1413
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,680
out because today's topic was 
Stonewall. 

1414
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,200
I asked it to do a theme of 
Stonewall. 

1415
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:22,840
Just a Just a Stonewall. 
Stonewalls. 

1416
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:25,120
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, and there you have it. 

1417
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:28,920
No more walls between us, at 
least for today. 

1418
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,880
We've tackled the tough stuff, 
breaking down what stonewalling 

1419
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:36,800
is and how to chip away at those
emotional barriers. 

1420
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:40,359
Don't let this combo be the end.
Take what we've uncovered and 

1421
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:43,240
start demolishing those walls in
your own relationships. 

1422
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,920
Remember, open hearts, open 
minds. 

1423
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:50,720
Catch you next time on Honey. 
We need a chat where we keep 

1424
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:53,000
breaking barriers and building 
connections. 

1425
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:57,359
Stay open, stay awesome. 
Good shot. 

1426
01:08:57,359 --> 01:08:58,080
Thanks guys.