I feel like I'm like, totally naked in front of you.
I feel like, but in a good way, yeah.
I hear you. We have become so habitualized
to living B plus lives. I mean, I think I was living AB
plus life and I didn't realize it because there were so many
aspects of it that from the outside looked like an A or an A
plus. Life.
You would have been around 45 and one day you would have been
found yourself in your car crying uncontrollably and you
would have said what have I done?
Sometimes the outside world is the one confirming to us our
life is perfect and we know inside and we've got like this
kind of, we know how much we are actually living the life we
want. We know because when we're
living it, we feel exquisitely alive.
And so it usually is a crisis where people are fired or go
through a divorce or have a breakup of some kind of, and
they'll say, wait, OK, I can't take it anymore.
That's, I mean, look, there's four things that destroy you
living your own life, or I call them the four Horsemen of dream
destruction, but it captures these things.
It captures self-care, recreation, pleasure and sex.
Susie, welcome to Tiger Sisters. So happy to be here.
We're so excited. So Susie Welch has lived a dozen
chapters. Editor in chief of Harvard
Business Review, best selling author, professor at NYU Stern,
and podcast host. Her hit course and new book,
Becoming You, have become a movement pushing people to face
the hardest question there is. Are you really living your own
life or living through someone else's script?
May I say that becoming you, the question it actually answers is
what should I do with my life? Which it leads you to ask, is
the life I have right now the life I want?
So it's all the really easy, fun questions.
Yeah, Right. This is a flight day of public
kind of conversation. Yeah, Yeah.
There's more. OK, so Doctor Susie Welch.
Yes, that's right. Doctor has spent her entire
career cutting through the myths about money, power and love to
help people live their lives with purpose.
And also, we were. We've been playing it cool since
the beginning. But we're truly fans of yours, I
guess. Really.
Love everything you. Do we think you're so fabulous
and we want to be you And I also want to get my PhD and I'm so
like, there's just some OK, all right, all right, well.
It's a mutual fan club right here, right?
Big love in. And so in becoming you, you
introduce the value bridge and it's a framework that you've
developed that helps you figure out who we are and what we want
to do. And so we've shared our values
bridge results with you. We've taken the test and please
be honest. What is wrong with us and what
is the thing you understand about what is right?
Right, I know I can't wait to do this.
I mean, there's it's you have very exciting results, very
interesting. I was a little taken aback by
your results. And so we will go deep, deep
dive into them. So the class I teach becoming
you excavates three data sets, your values, your aptitudes and
your economically viable interests because you need all
of that data to synthesize and then come out with your purpose
in in the class in one semester, the wait list was 800 students.
And so it was and now I and now I took it in mega sections
because who is, if you can find for me the one person who
doesn't ask the question, wait, what should I do with my life?
Or is this the right thing? I don't know where that person
is. So I put together a great team
of engineers. It's like a matricians and
developers and we created this tool, the values Bridge, which
rank orders your values from 1 to 16 and it tells you which
values you hold and how much you're living them.
Yeah. So we call that gap the
authenticity gap. And So what I have now in front
of me is the list of your values from 1 to 16 and how much you're
actually living them. I think that I was a little bit
surprised by the difference in your values.
So should we do it? Yeah.
OK, let's. Dive.
In and also just. I feel like I'm like totally
naked in front of you. I feel like.
But in a good way, yeah. I hear you.
I hear you that there is this moment.
And so you're wonderful to go ahead and do it here on the
podcast. But you know, part of what
you're doing yourselves is you're allowing people to be
vulnerable and listening to you and you talk about all the
really big stuff. So it's not just young people
who are going through it. I mean, there's people 40-50
years old who are sitting there saying, whose life did I just
live? Yeah.
OK. So that's into it.
It's let's do it. This is office hours.
Actually, it is. I'm psych.
I love it. All right, Cheri, we'll start
with you. OK.
OK, so your number one value is something that we call radius.
And this is a value that reflects how much you want to
change the world, how much you want to have systemic change.
When I have in class students who present is what we would
call social justice warriors, they always are #1 on radius.
I have a daughter who's an artist and an animal rights
activist. She's number one on radius.
And so, and thank God the man that she's about to marry is
also that because this, if you have this value and you are
marrying somebody who does not have it, I, I wish you well
because this is a very strongly presenting value.
So there's something in you that seeks systemic change.
You're not satisfied with things staying the way they are.
You have a, a dream of in some way changing the world.
Does that feel real to you? It does.
I've been called a dreamer and actually there was a conflict my
my boyfriend when I was in my early 20s.
We both worked at the same company, but we had different
views on how to approach our life.
I was like, I have such a big dream of things I want to do
through my career, create impact.
And he's like, would you just be happy?
Like living in the suburbs with just like a plain house and a
dog? And there was so much derision
in that comment, but I'm like what's wrong with what I want to
do? And I hope you are not still
with this person. I'm not.
God is all I can say.
I mean, and that's why I said that this value is so strong in
how it drives, how we live and work, that if you do not share
it with a partner. So I should point out that the
values bridge the test itself has a functionality that if
another person takes it and you both check a box, your values
will come up next to each other and it will give you a conflict
or harmony score. So you and this young man would
have had like a like 100% conflict on it.
And I think when my daughter and her fiance took it, they're
like, mom, you're home, come talk to us about our results.
And as I was walking towards them, because the wedding's
already planned, I was like, please, God, I pray to you.
And they had, thank God, their top six values.
Oh my. God.
Yes, I like almost wept from now look, I I would have been
shocked if they weren't. They're essentially the same
human being. So, all right, so.
And I, I do think that her value of radius comes through very
clearly actually in Tiger Sisters and is the core mission
in Tiger Sisters. And a big reason why we're doing
what we're doing is very much driven by her number one core
value and radius. I want to say two things. 1 is,
I think you're exactly right because you could have done
anything you could have done. You could have been a product
manager. There's a million jobs, and you
took the job which had high risk, right?
You did start up but had the potential for the most impact.
Now, radius is also a high value of yours.
It's #5 so that's still a core value of yours.
It's still very high. It's not as high as your
sisters, but luckily, because you're working together, I'm
very happy that you both have radius high up.
OK, All right, all right. So your second value is
achievement, which is the desire to have success that other
people can see. Now really interestingly, this
makes you different than many people of your generation,
because typically for people, how old are you?
I'm 30. OK, Gen.
Z, for instance, is hopping off at age 26.
Achievement as a value is number 11.
And so I have achievement as #2 as well.
And this is the desire to have accomplishments and success that
other people can see. Either that's in you or it's
not. And when I talk about
achievement, a lot of time with my Gen.
Z students, they're like, who needs that?
And I'm like, I don't know, my whole generation did, but I was
like, but I think actually it's skews at business schools quite
high. I think Business School select
for it. Let's see where achievement is
for you. It's #4 OK, so you are both very
high on achievement. And thus the name Tiger Sisters.
So I'm very excited about that. So very.
Now we come to one of the most controversial talked about
values and this is a value that we that I had to use a Greek
name for because it sets people's heads on fire.
So the value, we call it eudaimonia in Greek, it means
flourishing, but it captures these things.
It captures self-care, recreation, pleasure, and sex.
OK, so pick from any of those. They all track together and you
have it as #3 So for core value for you, there is this desire
for, I don't know if it's self-care or if it's fun or
recreation or which one of it does those parts.
It is. Does that resonate for you?
It does, yeah. And I saw that it's in conflict
with my desire to achieve and to have.
Affluence which comes next so wait, let's see where eudaimonia
is for you now. Actually, I will say that you're
out. Your eudaimonia was lower.
It was at 8 in the middle. And for me it's #15 so I have
like, and I'll tell you this about the whole one of the
beautiful things in my opinion about the values bridges.
It allows us to talk about people's values without any
judgement. You know, these are values and
you can be higher on them or lower on them and their choices
with consequences. And so when I tell people like,
well, you pneumonia is number 15 for me, it's like, what's wrong
with it? And it's like, well, my joy is
in my work and my achievement. And so I don't, I don't
necessarily like want to like I don't even know what self-care
is. Of course, generationally that's
like, maybe my self-care is in my dogs, like the amount of fun
I have with my dogs. I think it is also a
generational like reflection of us because I think like her
generation, she's on the cusp of Gen.
Z, She's a Zelenio. Like they're all about self-care
and they're like work life balance is really important
versus like, I feel like I went up through the, you know,
investment banking, like finance world where it was like, you
have to put like those things on the wayside in order to actually
be successful at achievement or all those other things.
And. This came for you, right, which
is, look, my students and many, many people take the values
bridge and they get as top value eudaimonia and then right after
they get affluence or achievement and then they're
like that's the reason for the O feeling because those are those
are in conflict with each other. And so you definitely look, the
test is going to tell you where you've got your conflicts and
your harmonies. Eudaimonia for you is 3.
It's not #1 and for it's, it's 8, then we have affluence, which
is the desire to have wealth. And I think again, there's a
little stink off of this in the world, right?
But why this is a choice. And if you're not hurting
anybody, it's your value. I mean, I've plenty of students
who have it is number 1 and it's high for me as well.
And it, I think there's no harm in it.
Sometimes people want affluence because they have it, it, it
feeds another value. Yeah, like beholders and which
we're about to come to because that was your number one value.
And we'll talk about it. We both have affluence in the
top five. And then we have for you Sherry
voice, which is the desire for authentic self-expression.
It's like that. I want to be me.
I want to self express. I don't want to be in a culture
or an environment where I can't let my whole self be present.
And again, this is for Gen. Z, the number 2 value.
So for you, voice is it's down at 10, which suggests to me that
you have more comfort around fitting in to organizational
cultures and to leaving some of your authentic self-expression
not aside but to your private time.
Like you don't feel the need. People who have high voice want
to be themselves all the time. People with lower voice are
like, look, there's a time where I can be myself and it's when
I'm. Well, I feel like I've had to do
that my whole life in order to succeed, in order to, like, get
where I am now. Versus like Cherie, ever since
she was very, very young, she was always like a superstar.
And she's always been even among supported.
Yeah, she's like the the younger sister.
She's the youngest cousin. She's always the superstar.
Like, I don't know how else to say it.
She has star power. And it was always, she always
expressed her voice. That's right.
It was very much appreciated and loved and I think.
Yeah, well, there's the, you know, there's the interesting
comment. Because what I often see,
especially with young women, women up until sort of the 40s,
is they can have quite high voice, but their authenticity
gap is massive. So they can have voices, number
one. And the authenticity gap is 98%,
meaning they want to do it and they can't.
And I had a student come to a lot of times just crying, saying
look at this. And she showed me her results
and voice was #1 authenticity gap like 9899%.
And she said, I wish you could teach a class about how we can
do this, how we can be ourselves.
I don't even know how to do it. My culture has taken this
ability away from me. And I said that I love the idea
of a class on that. That's not, I can't teach that.
That's not my area of expertise. But I cheer you on.
Well. I think so much of it is
environmental to. And so when you say culture, my
first thought was like work culture, like the work culture
that Jean grew up in was basically, as she explained, it
was pretty much to stifle yourself for the bottom line.
Whereas we're growing up being raised in a tech company as my
first job, it was very much like, be yourself, right?
And we also had like one day off a month to, for you pneumonia,
right? To like, you know, explore
something about yourself outside of work.
People who have very high achievement, very high affluence
go into investment banking and they have voice very low and
they don't care if you have very high voice, you know, Goldman
Sachs is going to be a different kind of fit for you.
And so this is 1. So there's many, many good
reasons to know your values. One is to have this very candid
conversation with yourself about whether you're living them and
and if not, whose values you are living.
And then the second reason is to say, am I working in the right
place? Am I going to last here?
Because if you don't have, if you have a mismatch on values
with your organization, you just go to work every day in a suit
that's three sizes too small and it stinks.
Yeah, well, let's talk about beauty for a second.
Because it's your top value. It's.
Her top value and she's embarrassed by it.
Yes, I always know. So here's.
What I say OK, I just feel like I have to explain it.
Now let's talk about it for a second.
First of all, a lot of people have this value.
It's one of the oldest identified values by scholars.
We call it beholderism. It it is the value that reflects
how much you care about how things look, including yourself.
I always say that when people find out that this is their top
value that they need to go into support group.
OK. And so a many, many.
I've done this work with many influencers because my life
brings me into to contact with a lot of influencers.
For almost every influencer, it's the top value.
And I'm not surprised because there's something very visual
about being an influencer that how things look and sound.
I will say that to go deeper than that, Beholder ISM is often
a proxy for desiring harmony. OK, you want things to look
beautiful. And my feeling about that is
there's not very much we can control in this world.
Not very much we can control, but we can control our
environment and we can control ourselves.
And I often think that's reflected in High Beholder
olderism. Now, I don't know where your
olderism is coming from. I think that's so.
True, you, you look beautiful, so that's part of it.
But this desire that things should have a certain harmony,
that the world just works better when things are, you know,
elevated. I mean, there used to be a store
in New York's that that sort of just beautiful interior designs.
And I used to call it the Palace of Watch because I walked in
there. I was like, I want everything.
I want my house to look like this.
And then when my test scores came back and Beholders was for
for me, I was like, yeah, I know.
I'm the daughter of an art architect and an artist.
My home is my palette. It it's like I paint on, you
know, my, my, you know, canvas is my home.
And so so Beholders intends to skew.
Either you have it very high or you have it very low.
I think in some ways it's actually very much of A relief
to be able to like put a, a word to it, a name to it.
Because there's just so many things about me, like, you know,
growing up in middle school, I would borrow like dozens of
books about interior design. Like when I was like 12 years
old and just non-stop read all these books about interior
design and I was like a freak of a 12 year old.
Like who does? That I did that.
Yeah. I did that.
Well, first of all, my dad was an architect.
We had tons of books around the house.
But when Architectural Digest would come, I would, like, go
through the pages. Yeah.
Like a zombie. Like like upset.
Yeah, and my homes are really curated, you know, very
specifically to me, but I really care.
And if I walk into the room and like the flowers are of color
that's not vibing the rest of the room.
I like will carry them into the kitchen saying this is upsetting
me. I mean, I'm really this is your
beholder ISM It's it's and the great thing is like just
celebrated. So many cool people have
beholders are very high. So it's not it's and again, no
value is good or bad. It's just you.
Yeah, but it's very good to be able to explain to people I have
super high beholders and just bear with me while I sort of
change this place getting right. Yeah.
And I think it's kind of I also, I've always loved art growing
up. I love like all different
expressions of art. I think it's yes.
I really, really just like deeply appreciate the sublime.
Yes. And.
That's exactly it. I don't know how else to explain
it. Like back when you know, you
could see all the runway shows for free on vogue.com, like I
would every, every fashion seats, I would like pour through
all of the runways like and like look at them one by one and just
form my own opinions. And like that was my happy
place. Just say I want to give you some
gratuitous advice, which is that the next time you get serious
with somebody, give him the test.
Make sure his beholderism is up there like yours because I think
it gets really hard in a relationship when one person has
high beholderism and the other just doesn't get it.
Yes, it's because it bumps into everything.
It sort of bumps into where you choose going to a restaurant.
It bumps to like what your house looks like.
It bumps into like where you vacation.
It just bumps into everything. So check out that.
Check out Belovedness and check out Beholderism.
OK, that is so crazy because even before I took this test, I
said something to Sheree the other day about this, where I
was like, Oh yeah. Like, you know, I've been on a
couple days with this guy. I was like, I just don't know if
he really like appreciates some of the things that I appreciate
like. Like if I look nice, like will
he even appreciate that? Like what's the point if he
doesn't appreciate me looking? I know, I see, I know I secretly
think I developed a dating app by accident.
I mean, I was like, I think oops, but I mean, I think that I
like I said to you about my daughter and her soon to be
husband in two weeks, you know that their top six values were
identical. And they are weirdly like happy
because they just everything. I He was reminiscing about the
first time he and met her and he went back to the office after
they had lunch for the first time.
And he said to the people he's working with, I don't know what
just happened. And it's like when you meet
somebody who's got your exact values, you have this feeling
like what just happened. But you sort of saying if I even
elevated my beholderism and and sort of showed my beholderism
would even care is a bit of a red flag.
Yeah. It's like the worst guest we
ever had on you. Know the best, the best?
Well, let's see, We'll put this to the test.
Well, I think it's interesting Susie, what you said about
control because I think that's. True.
I mean, of course you love you love art and beauty and you love
flipping through those, you know, magazines.
But I think there's something to be said about control, yes, like
having some sort of control over your life, your environment when
this in this world, like what can you really control?
That's right. I think beholderism for people
is absolutely a way to make order of a world that can feel
very chaotic. Yeah, yeah.
And. Especially but sometimes it's
just love and beautiful things I don't want to buy you know like
sometimes you know it's just cuz you love beauty and it's OK to
love beauty I. Think it's both for you.
Yeah, yeah. All right.
So those are your, those are your top values.
Let's just talk briefly about your, your bottom 2 values
because sometimes those tell us a lot of things also.
OK. So your bottom that your lowest
value is something we call belonging, which is sort of it's
like kind of community, it's clubs, it's hanging with
friends, it's just wanting to be part of affinity groups.
And so oftentimes people with high voice as you have have low
belonging and so or does that sound right to you?
Yeah, I, I think so. It's just I, I don't really
believe in like groups or like group dynamics.
I'm like much more like. Deep one-on-one relationships
with people. Right.
So this is 100% tracks with what you're saying.
Your second to bottom one is place, meaning if it's a low
value, it means you could live anywhere that you're not OK.
I have to live in this one city. Like for me, place is very high
because when I leave New York City, I hyperventilate and feel
like I must get right back. And so I love to travel, but I'm
like, it's not New York. And that gives me very high
place. And so it sounds to me like with
this value that you're, you're fine with where you're living
and but you're not like it does not have to be one place.
I think so, especially recently with so much moving like leaving
Palo Alto, coming to Lai. Think I'm in a time in my life
where place will not rank high. Yes, I'm looking right now.
I'm looking where your belovedness is.
So let's talk about the value of belovedness before we look at
your values. And so belovedness is a very
interesting value because it reflects how much you want to be
in an intimate partnered relationship.
And it's very interesting to hear the cultural narrative
about how much you should want marriage.
In a way, I mean, think this is about a, a relationship that is
marriage or like marriage. And women like us have gone
through professional schools and we've been told it's the career,
it's the career and many. And that's fine and it's true
for many of us, but often times there are women who do not feel
able to say, but I also really want to get married and shows up
in their results. It shows up and they come in and
they've been like girl bossing it, go bossing it.
And then belovedness pops in at #1 and there's a 98% gap.
So for you, if you don't mind me saying your belovedness is at 8,
which sort of puts it in the middle.
Like you might want a partner relationship, but it's not your
driving organizing principal. You're not choosing your job or
your location or your weekend activities on finding this
partner. That you're a partner for your
life. Yeah, yeah.
Sounds true. I think that's right where I am
in in this state in life. Shall we see where belovedness
is? Yeah.
OK. And answer is it's 11 pretty
low. So yeah, let's hear what are
your thoughts on your belovedness.
So my. Thoughts are that I am surprised
because I consider myself to be like a very romantic person and
I like I love the idea of romance.
I love being in romance. I love being in partner
relationships. I think that it's low now
because I recently broke my engagement about a year ago with
someone that was together for eight years.
So I think it's more of like a snapshot in.
Time exactly why? Yeah.
So for me, belovedness was very high.
And then my husband died, and it went to, it went to it's #16 for
me now. And I think when you've been
through a seismic event involving love, belovedness will
shift. And you have deprioritized it
because of what was certainly, in some level, a traumatic event
for you. Yeah.
And so I would not be surprised if we were to revisit with each
other in six months or a year that it would move back up.
Yeah. And I think it's also a response
to, I feel like in the past over, you know, the course of
that eight-year relationship, it was very high right values.
And I think maybe it was. I was like.
Overweighting it, I think it might have been over expressed,
right? And it may be one of the reasons
I don't want to go, you know, get too personal.
But it may have been over expressing.
It was part of why the engagement ended up breaking.
Yeah. And I mean, if you had to guess,
while you're in that relationship, belovedness was
maybe one or two probably over expressed by quite a lot.
Do you? Can you, in your mind's eye,
imagine what your partner's belovedness was?
Definitely not as high because he's a much more like even keel.
He's just not naturally like a romantic person.
He's just like very even keeled, like not very expressive at all
in terms of emotions. I think like radius, belovedness
with your partner should be about the same level.
So if you both have belovedness in the top five, fantastic.
If you have it in the bottom 5, also fantastic because you both
are going to prioritize the relationships, the amount.
But woe to the couple where the one person has belovedness in
the in the top and the other has it in the bottom, and all you're
going to do is fight about how important the relationship is.
Actually love this framing like we love frameworks just like
you. I actually think this is really
interesting because I think recently I experienced a
relationship where the, the other person, this guy like
belovedness was super high on him.
It's like he was just like super expressive with how much he
liked me. He was like really open with
like PDA, like he just wore his heart on his sleeve and I was
very receptive to that. Like I was, it was very positive
to experience such a different expression from the other
person. And it's like more aligned with
I think. What's right for me.
I think your natural belovedness is quite high.
I think right now it's down lower because you're working
out. And now our values that we think
are pretty stable from sort of age 25 on, because a lot of
things go into forming our values and then they all go into
a big Stew and mix it up. So what goes into forming our
values, our parents, our culture, our society, experience
trauma. And then by each 25, you kind of
are who you are. But then a seismic life event
can switch our values around. Someone's having a child, going
through divorce, I mean, all these different things.
But what changes is how much we're living them or not living
them. And the goal is to be living
them. But that's kind of the work of
our life is to work out the conflicts and to live our values
fully. But becoming you, the
methodology itself says, doesn't say go live your values.
It says figure out your values, then figure out your aptitudes.
Because you could want to be Céline Dion or whatever and have
a very bad voice. And so you have to also know,
you can know your values, but then you have to know what
you're good at and not. And I by that I mean your
cognitive strengths and also your personality strengths,
because you could be good at a job because of your personality
and you can be so bad at a job because of your personality.
That's, I mean, look, there's four things that destroy you
living your own life. I called them the four horsemen
of dream destruction and they all start with ES.
So the first one is expectations, which is around
like what your family's expecting and what you expect.
Then the second is expedience because sometimes it's just
easier. They come and they recruit you
or the job sitting there, it's your next door neighbor's
brother has a job, you can fill it.
It's not really perfect for you, but it's easy and you just do
things that are easier. And we go against our values all
the time because it's just the path of least resistance.
And the world is pretty hard anyway.
Yeah, the easier thing, yeah. Then there's events, And events
are like, you got laid off, so you do something else and then
it's not quite right, but you just stay.
And events can push us. Getting married, having a baby,
there's all sorts of events. And then the final is economic
security. And we make all sorts of
decisions based on money, even though sometimes money doesn't
actually matter to us all that much.
I mean, for Gen. Z, affluence is not actually all
that high. Stability is much higher, much
higher. And we have a value for
stability. It's called scope.
Let's see where you are with scope.
That's about, if you have high scope, you want a very big,
highly stimulating. You don't really care that much
about just stability for stability sake.
OK, So John, you are at six, meaning it's not a it's it's
actually pretty close to the top that you want stimulation,
excitement, you want big life. That's what this would say.
And you on scope, it's pretty low for you, you know, that's
there's something about it tracks kind of with your
eudemonia low scope and eudemonia track together in that
you have a more comfort with having a life where you have
some predictability that right. Yeah, I think so.
I mean, like, I like the occasional occasional,
occasional, like, oh, this is a new experience, right?
But then I'm like, oh, I can come home and go to my gym
classes. Yes, and that's right.
You know that's definitely showing up here, right.
But and we all have a different level of want and need and
desire for disruption. And people with very high scope
are like, I'll take the chaos because the fun of it or the
excitement of it or the. I have a student who had scope
is her number one value. And she said, I just want to
touch everybody's brain, OK. And that I remember saying that
I was like, if I could, you are the poster child for high scope.
And and she's has a life where she's designed everything around
that. And luckily her husband has high
scope also. Otherwise, I think he's quite
miserable. Yeah.
How do you feel? Do you feel seen?
I feel so understood. I feel like with the top five
and also my bottom 2 that we went through, I'm like I in
taking this test, it was very much like I poured my heart into
it, answered everything super honestly and the results like
reflect that I think. It's such good data to have,
isn't it? And it allows you to talk to
each other. Well, this is my scope value
speaking. Well, look, this is, you know,
with my high, you know, with my high value of radius, I done it.
I mean, it's a, it is a, it is a way to understand yourself and
then understand those around you as this language you know, So
we. Actually, we say that all the
time. It's like having the vocabulary
to actually express something. That's what's really powerful
about values, which is it gives you the vocabulary to put a name
to something that you know in your heart.
Yeah, but you're like, how do I express this?
And then now that we have this shared vocabulary, you we can
actually like. Like the word eudaemoniae?
Never knew that word before. Yeah.
Look, this happened. It's.
Unintentional that we named it the bridge, right, because when
you have a language you can build a bridge to understanding
I mean, we struggled with the name, but the minute the bridge
came to me I was like, that is the name.
And when I was guest lecturing at Stanford last year, a student
came up to me afterwards and she said, you know, all of your work
reminds me of this Wittgenstein quote.
You know, you're at Stanford when somebody comes up.
She said, reminds me of this Wittgenstein quote.
The limits of my language are the limits of my world.
And I said that's exactly right. Is this opens up a world of a
self-awareness and compassion and conversation, which is the
thing I dig about it. So.
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We're obsessed with Read AI and we think you're going to love it
too. Susie, thank you so much for
going through our values bridges with us.
We want to turn the conversation now to you and we talk about
money, power and love on the Tiger Sisters podcast.
And we want to go through some of those questions and, you
know, go through your brain and learn a little bit more about
how you think about these things.
I can't wait. Great.
So in Becoming You, you talked about how the process usually
starts with some sort of crisis. Like we talked about maybe a
traumatic event, 1/4 life crisis or midlife or some kind of
reckoning. Why is it that it often takes a
big seismic shift for this to happen?
Because we have become so habitualized living B plus lives
or B, you know, we can bump along into life that's kind of
AB or B plus for a really long time and just keep telling
ourselves something's going to change or it has to be that way.
And we just let it go. I mean, and sometimes we let it
go until we're in our 50s or 60s and then we say, wait a minute,
the clock is actually ticking now and I'm going to fix it
because B is not good enough. I want to just try it.
But other people go all the way to the end that way.
And so sometimes we have to be shoved into the kind of self
examination that that we need. And so it usually is a crisis
where people are fired or go through a divorce or have a
breakup of some kindness and they'll say, wait, OK, I can't
take it anymore. It's no longer B or B plus.
It's actually C or C minus or D or it feels like F.
And I mean, I kind of troll on Reddit.
There's all these fees where people are like, I hate my life
and everything. And I'd like, you know, just, I
have to hold myself back from typing in just do becoming you
because they would ban me. But but there are people who hit
a crisis point and that's when they start the work.
And you know, my loving advice is to do it before that happens
and save yourself the time and and do it before it really
becomes an absolute crisis. As a tiger sister, hearing you
say AB or B plus life, I'm like like I need to clutch my Pearl.
I know I. Know, But, you know, people do
it, yeah. And they do it for a really,
really long time, and it feels OK and they make a lot of
excuses, yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I think I was living AB plus life for a long time and I
didn't realize it because there were so many aspects of it that
from the outside looked like an A or an A+ life.
Like all of the, you know, just like, oh, like you look like
you're in a beautiful couple and you have this incredibly
high-powered job. Like you live in LA.
Like there's just so many things that I think I almost let
society or societal expectations like dictate and like tell me
that I was living an A life or an A+ life.
And it wasn't until I'm actually really like grateful now for
that sort of like crisis moment. Because it's like you said, it's
not until you like sort of like crash that you're like, wait,
why was I on this road in the 1st place?
Like, why was I driving down this road?
Like it would have been a, it would have kind of been like a
really underwhelming life that was like not an expression of my
true self. That's right.
You would have been around 45 and one day you would have been
found yourself in your car crying uncontrollably and you
would have said, what have I done?
And and so you do have to kind of crash sometimes.
The outside world is the one confirming to us our life is
perfect and we know inside and we've got like this kind of, and
then you, we hear all this confirming stuff.
Oh, you got it all. And it comes from our friends
and our parents and they are just checking the boxes for us.
But we know how much we are actually living the life we
want. We know because when we're
living it, we feel exquisitely alive.
And that is so good. But if you've never experienced
it, you don't want to go back and get it because you don't
even know what it is to begin with.
So a lot of stuff gets in the way of us going big.
Yeah, we had an episode recently where Jean and I talked about
settling. Like how do you know first
settle? I saw that episode.
It was great. And I thought, wow, this is all
about the four horsemen of of value destruction.
If you want to know what which one of the horsemen is taking
away your life, we actually have a free quiz you can take.
It takes 2 seconds and it will tell you, oh, it's expectations,
it's expedient or it's all four and it settling is real.
Yeah. So Susie, on this podcast we
talk a lot about balancing ambition and fulfilment.
So when it comes to money, what do you think people most often
get wrong about the connection between wealth and happiness?
And like there's so many, you have so many terms within.
Yeah, I know. It's like it's a whole
industrial complex around this. OK, so first of all, can I just
take issue with the word balance, which I don't actually
believe in because it suggests that you should have the same
amount of everything. You should have, you know, work
and your personal life should be balanced, but who's who's
deciding what that balance is? You know that you should have
everything should be in balance. Like, you know, I'm, I want to
work all the time and I want tons of money, OK, and I don't
and I and who's to tell me I should be having more fun?
Go take a hike. I don't want to I don't want to
go water skiing this weekend. This is my fault.
This is, this is, and also that's like balance my.
So I worry about people believing that there's some kind
of perfect for everybody kind of balance.
Like you should be doing more of this or doing more of that.
It's actually super personal. And Jensen Huang of NVIDIA was
asked recently, how's your work life balance?
And he said, I love my work life balance.
I work all the time. And I mean, I was like, preach.
Now I get it that that's not for everybody.
And I don't want people to judge me about my work life balance.
Just like I don't want to judge anybody.
And like I have 4 adult children, their view about
working and balance is different than mine.
And I say that's perfectly fine. It's groovy.
Live your values, live your life, but understand there are
consequences. If one of your top values is
affluence, it's, you know, and you want to also have a lot of
eudaimonia, you're going to have to figure that out because they
don't typically track together unless you have inherited
wealth. I think that the thing you've
got to figure out is not how to have balance, but you've got to
figure out what is your balance. You know, how much do you want
of each one of these? This is why I like the rank
ordering because sometimes people say, Yep, that's it.
I can't lie anymore. I want, I want luminance, I want
fame, I want money, I want achievement.
And look all the way down here is Eudaimonia.
I've been lying about this to everybody.
And I want the permission to say to people, I'm not playing with
you this weekend. I'm going to work because I like
it. And we got to give ourselves
permission to have the balance. We want to have our definition
of it. I just had a light bulb moment
right now that let me see if I can process this live.
But I think it has to do with my belonging being literally my
last value. Like when I'm like scrolling on
Instagram and I see people's stories of like, Oh my God, they
had this Bachelorette with like 20 women there.
I'm like, oh that's nice. Like wonder what that must be
like to be like surrounded and have that community.
And it's gorgeous. And there's these photos and
then like for a second I feel like bad cuz I'm comparing
myself to that person. But if we go back to my values
bridge, I'm like, I don't really care for that.
That's not how I want to live my life.
Before social media you wouldn't even seen those pictures so you
wouldn't have cared. I mean I think it's social media
puts it in your face but belonging is not a high value as
yours. It doesn't mean that you don't
want some of it, but you wanted a lot less than some other
things like radius is your top value.
You would trade off clearly having high impact work with
hanging out with a bunch of bridesmaids.
OK, It's my daughter is #1 radius.
She's a total person wants to change the world in a lot of
different ways. She's about to get married.
No bridesmaids, OK, Let alone no bridesmaids parties, no
bridesmaids, OK. I mean, they're it just that's
not how who they are. And her husband, her soon to be
husband also has a high radius. It's the most, you know, this is
a wedding that's actually about their value of radius.
I mean, it's about and everybody there is going to be like that.
It's going to be it's going to be quite the event that there's
not there's no partying beforehand.
There's no like, you know, bachelor party.
Are you kidding me that they find that very, you know, that's
just not who they are, right? So.
It's it's not who I am actually, and I don't know why.
I mean, like, yeah. 'Cause there's, there's societal
culture, now you can just hold up your values, bridge results
and say any other low belonging people here like me, you know,
so OK. So our next question on money is
if you could sit down with your younger self, what's one piece
of Money Advice you wish you had known earlier?
There's 2 great pieces of Money Advice that I would love to
share. The 1st is there's no last best
deal. This has saved me from so many
stupid purchases, so many stupid decisions.
Is the whole idea of the person who's trying to get you to buy
something is to get you into a frenzy where you think it's the
last best deal. I mean, that's what advertising
does. That's what Realtors do.
That's what all sorts of people do.
And you have to sort of say, Nope, there actually is no last
best deal. There's always going to be
another deal. And and what if you're a person
who's interested in investing the whole idea of the people
trying to sell you the stock or whatever it is that you're
investing it is to make you. I feel like it's the last best
deal. And so this for Frame, there's
no last best deal, has saved me so many wrong turns, especially
around real estate, right? There's never going to be a
better house than this. It's never going to be at this.
And you know what there is, there's going to be another
house and there's going to be another good deal.
So that's very, very centering. The second one piece of advice,
I think I learned it from watching people around me and
people now tell me it's one of the most distinctive
characteristics about how I think about money is, is to just
to fight back against the sun cost fallacy and just to the cut
your losses. I made a mistake.
I made a financial mistake. Get out, get out now.
And so this has happened with real estate.
I want time bought a house. I thought it was the right house
and it I was there for two years.
I thought this is in the wrong place and it's the house doesn't
feel right to me for a bunch of different reasons.
I had fixed it up and poured some real money into it.
And I like remember calling my friend saying I'm selling this
house, who they'd all visited it and they were like, how can you
do that? And I said, because I made a
mistake, I'm out and I may take a hit, but there's no point
pouring more money into this pit.
And so I think some cost goes across so many different
financial decisions and it goes into sort of job decisions as
well. And so cutting your losses and
the ability to openly say, I made a mistake, I own it, hello
world, I made a mistake, I own it and then move on.
I, I think with my children, I taught them that.
And when I see them make wise decisions, financial decisions,
I think, OK, that's one thing I taught them.
Yeah, that second one is so powerful and I think it's a lot
harder than what you give yourself credit for because.
We are wired. I mean, this is what the work of
decision scientists would show you.
We are wired to have some cost and love for just pouring more
money on our problems, thinking we're saving face, we can fix
it. It is so common that to fight it
is a discipline. But it's true about
relationships too. Yeah.
And it feels like, in a way, like you're going against
yourself. Absolutely.
Like made this decision. You had done so many things
following that decision to reinforce that that that was the
right decision. So then like changing and doing
the opposite of that or reversing it, You're like, who
am I? It's like almost like you have
to. But it's a lot of badass thing
to do. Yeah.
I mean, it really is. It's like to really own your
mistake and publicly say to everybody, look, I made this
mistake. I I took the wrong job.
I moved to the wrong city. I you know, I invested in this
wrong thing. I'm getting out.
I'm getting out now, and I'm going to take my hit and I'm
going to move right on with the lesson learned is so empowering.
And the earlier you learn to do that, the better.
It's really powerful, yeah. And at the end of the day, I
think when people see that, they respect you more for it, not
less. And you actually sort of get
this incredible kind of rush off of it yourself, saying like I
did that because you realize how hard it is.
Look, it's all part of the Wisdom Project.
That's what I say about gathering.
Wisdom here. Wait, I'm going to, I'm going to
adopt that. I'm all.
Part of the Wisdom project covers up all your mistakes.
I mean, I and they are that is how I've gotten my wisdom, not
from what I did right. You know what I did wrong, which
there's a long. List and then OK, last note
about this, I feel like that there's no last best deal.
I feel like that actually can also be applied to love and
romance. Absolutely.
I mean absolutely you. Because when you think this is
might be the last guy or girl, you settle, OK, And then you
say, look, nobody else is coming along.
I was, I was friends with a woman.
She was in a relationship for a really long time.
She was 55. And he was terrible to her.
He was terrible to her. And I said, why are you staying?
And she said, who else is there going to be?
And she said, I just got to he's going to be the best guy I can
get. And it was it was disaster to
see the relationship. Well, I would go home to my
husband and say one day he's going to leave her for a younger
woman. And, you know, she should have
cut her losses and so forth. And that is exactly what
happened. And she actually now has happily
found somebody else. And so it all worked out.
It took a while, but we do this in relationships all the time.
We say, look, I'm just not meeting that many other people.
This is the last best deal if you're settling, as you have
said before in the podcast, that never leads anywhere.
It never leads anywhere good. It just does not.
There's no last best deal, There's no, there's no last best
deal. I'm going to be repeating.
This it's great for my T-shirts, right?
We it should be our mantra in the morning.
We like wake up and look in the mirror.
Yeah, we no last there's no last deal to ourselves.
I love. That I love.
It should we jump into love. Yeah, let's jump into love.
You can ask me about love, okay? I know that it's intensive, but
yeah, you can go ahead and ask me about it.
Don't be afraid if you talk about money, power, and love.
Don't be afraid to ask me about it.
It's okay. So Susie, you and your late
husband Jack both had such storied careers in the
professional realm. I'm sure you get this.
You know this question a lot. And this was long before you you
got married. So how did you balance being
partners in life while also collaborating on work on such a
high level? Yeah, it was intense.
I mean, it was really intense because we live together, love
together, raise the children together and worked together.
And the way we did it was we had very similar values.
We talked constantly. You've never met 2 Chad more
chatty people than us. I mean, it was we, we were both
very verbal and so we could be talking about things all the
time. We also knew our lanes.
And this was huge. Like I was never CEO of GE.
I never managed 400,000 people. And he had never written a, you
know, book after book after book.
He'd never edited. He had never done a lot of the
stuff that I knew how to do. And we agreed that we deeply
respected each other's areas of expertise and we let each other
be good at what they were good at.
And we believe that we would really learn from each other.
And he had like the, I think what really helped was he had
the deepest respect for me. He used to say to me all the
time, you're the smartest person I've ever met.
And I'd be like, that could not possibly be true, Jack.
And so he respected me and I really respected him.
And that helped a lot. But you know, I think that at
the end of the day, he had very high agency as a value.
He he was used to being a CEO. He drove every bus.
He was in charge. And I have very low agency.
I'm super collaborative. I am always kind of like, I
think every idea should be heard.
I love consensus. This is all kind of part of my
personality. And I think it was very
fortunate that he had high agency and I had low.
I think it in our marriage, had both of us been very high
agency, it would have there would have been a slightly
different story. And I just, I had this technique
when we disagreed, which is often shocking to other women
when I mention it, but I did it for a really long time.
And then one time I mentioned it in passing and it freaked out
the group of women I was with. OK.
So when he started saying something that I really
disagreed with my inside my head, my mantra was maybe he's
right. And I didn't get my Dukes up and
I didn't like start to disagree. I just thought maybe he's right.
I'm just going to hear him out with the assumption he might be
right. And so sometimes he'd come at me
with like, really like, we're not going to XY and Z vacation.
I've changed my mind. We're taking the kids to blank.
And my immediate visceral reaction would be something like
the worst idea I ever heard. It's wrong on so many levels.
And then I would immediately transfer to maybe he's right.
And I would say, why do you say that?
And I would have this very open mind about about it.
And then he would pour it all out and I would hear him.
And sometimes he was right, but other times, because I had a
really good attitude, non defensive attitude about it, I
would say, OK, well, here's where we differ.
And I would go through the ways that we that we differed.
And a lot of times he would say, oh, God, I never thought of
that, Susie. All right.
But it was my lack of defensiveness that allowed those
conversations to happen. And I think it feels like, you
know, OK, you know, to use a word that sets people's heads on
fire, it sounds kind of surrendered, right?
Like the surrendered wives are always like, whatever you say,
dear is right. But I just went in with the
supposition that he loved me. I trusted him.
He wanted what was right for us in the marriage, and he'd never
hurt me. And that maybe he was right.
And it's not. So it's not like we didn't
disagree. But when he came out at me, I
always started from a stance that I wanted to hear what he
was saying. Wow, when I hear that two things
come to mind. 1 is like the immense amount of self because
like the way that you described it, it's just like of course,
like everyone's first instinct to be like, what are you talking
about? So.
Also, coming from a person where like I feel like the three of us
are often right, like we we don't like, you know, yes, posit
our our opinions that are not well researched.
Right, right. We're not impossible.
Exactly right. So yeah, the self regulation.
To like have that immediate thought and then to stop
yourself. Yeah, yeah.
And then, yeah, to bring like a new perspective.
And then I think the second thing is assuming good intent, I
think that's so. It's so deep and it's huge.
It's actually just as a life less changes everything.
And I think I I learned that a lot from Jack.
He was really that way. Jack just he, you know, that
cliche, you know, strangers, a friend you just haven't met.
He totally thought the whole world was just waiting to be his
friend. He like went out into the world
every day, like we're all the friends I can meet.
I remember going to a party one time where we didn't know anyone
and he said, could anything be more exciting?
And this was so his personality. And I agree.
I like, like meeting people too, But assuming good intentions can
change the trajectory of your life and your career.
It can. And you know what?
Sometimes you get burned, sometimes people don't have good
intentions, but many, many more times you end up having
relationships and conversations that you wouldn't have had if
you went in with your Dukes up. So, OK, Susie, you recently said
on your podcast that you are ready to go on and write the
next part of your story. Yeah.
Do you remember saying that? Yeah.
Or you're going to die for it. OK, go for it.
Do you remember the next thing you said?
I thought I might go on a date. Yeah, I did it.
We went on a date. Can we talk about it?
Yeah. Yeah.
I think, you know, here's the terrible truth, right?
The date reminded me of how much I love my.
Husband. So it was that terrible.
Yeah, OK. It's terrible.
Yeah. OK.
Like nothing to recommend widowhood, OK.
But I would say that it, I had a couple of days afterwards where
I was sad because he was a perfectly good guy.
I'm a very nice guy. And actually we had some things
in common, really, some things really in common.
Like, we both like every single day, like get the same feed from
this, like, devotional. And we both read that one.
And so we had some serious things in common.
And, and it was a perfectly lovely conversation.
But sort of two hours into it, he said to me, I do not think
you're ready. And I said, yeah.
And he said, I just don't think you're in a place in your life
where you're ready for this. Are you ready?
He said, Are you ready to be loved by a man besides Jack?
And I thought, how astute. I thought, like, you know, he's
really smart. And I said, I actually don't
know the answer to that question.
He said, well, why don't you give it some thought?
Are you already friends? No, I, we had, but we knew
people in common and but he knew enough in those two hours
because I actually realized that I referenced Jack like 30 three
times on the date. And so it's kind of different
when you've not been divorced, right, Because sometimes when
you've been divorced, you're ready to start again and you're
like turning the page. But for me, like I lost the
person I loved. So I did it.
I did go on a date. And I mean, I'm not adverse to
another one, you know, not with that person because he's right,
but my I have this kind of this desire with at my daughter's
wedding to dance with somebody besides like my son, which is
really I like I was at AI was at a wedding with him and Eva the
other day. And like, I know they don't want
me dancing with them. They want to dance with each
other. Like who wants mom in the in the
group, right? And then I was at another
wedding and I was there with my daughter and her husband and
they said, let's dance. And I said, I don't want to do
that to you. So I would kind of like to
dance. So that's it's not like I want
to get married again, but it would be fun to have somebody
to. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, I love dancing. Yeah, and I like, So do I?
Yeah, that's really fun. I miss that a lot.
No, I know Jack. I used to dance all the time.
Yeah, I know you want the like. It was fun.
Feeling. Yeah, it was really fun, yeah.
Thought I missed. Well, I mean, you did the brave
thing. It felt brave.
In fact, the morning of, I tried to cancel, yeah, but I called
the friend who did the picks up and I said I think I got.
And she said, Nope, you can't do that, not going to do that for
you. And so I did it it as I was
walking toward it and I saw him on the sidewalk, I was literally
the inside my head I was saying like, turn around, leave, leave,
leave, leave, run, run, run, run.
I mean, I was it felt really brave.
I kind of hated it. But then the minute we said
hello, I was like, I can have a conversation with anybody.
Yeah, I'm just going to do sure care, right?
I didn't give them the values bridge.
I did not. But I, but I was doing it in my
head and, but I, so I'm not adverse to, it's not like I feel
like, OK, never again. I'm never going to do that again
because hope springs eternal. But I, you know, it's hard,
right? Because I had a great marriage.
I had a great, great, great marriage.
And so it's like a very hard act to follow.
Well, I hope you're proud of yourself.
Thank you. Truly.
It's kind of like you were saying before.
It's gathering wisdom, yes, right.
Yeah, OK, I'll, I'll take that. Maybe I'll say I'm a little
proud of myself. I mean people have been it's
been 6 years, right? So people have been pushing me
this towards this. I mean, I have a girlfriend who
was widowed recently and like 6 months later she went on her
first date and I was like, how you doing that?
And she said you got to get out there Susie.
And I was like you do, I mean. But I mean, you're kind of
building an empire now too, so you have all these different,
you know? What I mean, I'm building a
business, OK, and I love building a business.
I've always loved business so much and becoming you is kind of
taken off in a way that is like, you know, started with me
teaching this class and next thing I know there's like, you
know, people doing it all around the world.
And since since the values bridge came out May 6th was
really about 6566 thousand people have taken it.
That's beginning of a business, would you say?
Right. And so and we've got other great
products that are coming down the Pike.
And so I'm building something. Building is fun.
Yeah, and talk about radius. Yeah, but right.
So many people just live. You know, you think you're
touching emails and DMS every single day from people who say
it changed my life this way, it fixed my life this way, it did
this for my son or whatever. And I'm like, Oh my God, yes.
I'm addicted. I was just going to say that we
get those two and it's an addicting field.
It is like it puts you in a float.
It's like a drug. It is.
I can't stop doing this. Like, look, all these people
are, I don't know, like relying on me, sort of like there's all
these other people in the world that haven't been most of what
we do and we can help them. It's unreal.
It's the feeling of it. And when my kids say to me
you've got to take a day off, you've got to take a break, I
say I'm building something. Yeah.
And it's important you don't. I mean important.
It matters. It matters.
I think it does, yeah. But I mean, this is like one of
the many reasons why I really admire you.
And I almost feel like, I don't know, I feel like we're kindred
spirits in some ways because there's just so many ways that
you've reinvented yourself and you've done so many new things,
like, throughout your whole life.
Like getting your PhD. Yes.
Yeah. In your 60s.
Yes. That's incredible.
Yeah, I think it's crazy. I don't, I don't understand it.
Well, first of all, reinvention comes sort of comes with the
territory because the economy changes and the world changes
and you change. And so I mean, when I started
working as a journalist, we were typing on like standard, you
know, manual typewriters and you have to keep on reinventing
yourself or you're just going to be passed by.
And because one of my because I have the values of achievement
and scope, I didn't want that to happen to me.
So I kept on. And also I just have a natural
kind of personality. I'm an early adopter of
technology. Like I was like one of the first
people who bought a BlackBerry back when there were
Blackberries. I was like, this is so cool.
Like, you know, and I so I have that part of me and I think
there's weirdly a kind of fearlessness about how I
approach the world. But I think it that is actually
increased a lot since Jack died because when the worst thing in
the world has happened to you, like what can scare you anymore?
And one thing that really helped me is when I was fired in my 40s
from the Harvard Business Review.
And it was like a little bit of a, it felt like a public death.
I'd never been fired from anything in my life.
Then I was fired and it was reported in the Wall Street
Journal. And then I didn't die.
And people kind of came around and said, yeah, everybody gets
fired and like, you'll get over it.
And then the two weeks later, Oprah's organization called me
and said, how do you like to come work here?
And I was like, oh, wait a minute, I'm going to dig that a
lot. And you realize that you could
just die 1000 times in your career and it's on you.
You can just be reborn. And just to sort of say, yeah,
but you've got to have the the ability to say, yeah, got fired.
I'm not going to try to. I didn't get laid off.
I didn't like. And in fact, when I got fired,
they said they were going to put out a press release that said
that I resigned. And I said, don't do that.
You're firing me. I want the truth.
I'm going to tell the truth. And so should you.
And I mean, I, I hope if there's anything, you know, that I've
given other people the curve, say, look, it didn't work out
and I got fired and then I moved on.
I love it when people are candid that way.
So I, you know, some of my reinvention was quite forced
because I had no other choice. But I could have just opted out
and I just opted in. Yeah.
Awesome. Oh my God, you're so wise.
I'm so. I'm just absorbing everything.
Like you're, you're so like filling my cup.
I'm so. I love being with you.
I'm yeah, I'm so happy for your futures.
And you were just. The fact that you're doing this
is beautiful. It's fantastic.
Thanks so much, Susie. And so for our audience
listening, what is the best way they can connect or find your
content, your book? Oh, holy.
All right. So I mean, there's Susie Welch
all together is my Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn, you can and my
podcast is called Becoming You. You can find it on all the
platforms and the book is everywhere.
Books are sold. And the values bridge is at the
valuesbridge.com. Incredible.
It's Susie with AZ. Yeah, Suzy.
Amazing. Thank you so much.
I love being here. Appreciate you.
Ever come to New York? You've got to come be on my
podcast. Yeah.
We have so much fun. Absolutely.
OK. I'm game.
Yay.