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Just doing the hard work doesn't
get you promoted. 

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Being seen does. 
And if you're thinking this 

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year, Oh my God, I did 
everything I could but it still 

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didn't translate, then this 
episode is for you. 

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One of our biggest takeaways 
this year is that talent doesn't

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necessarily equal success. 
It's whether that talent turns 

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into credibility, influence and 
revenue, especially heading into

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a new year. 
Today we're doing our career 

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reset episode, and it's all 
built on this one fundamental 

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idea, the invisible game of 
power at work. 

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First you're going to learn how 
to control the signal that 

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you're sending. 
Then we're going to convert that

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into influence that people 
actually. 

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Act on. 
OK, so Part 1 is how your 

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leaders or your team perceive 
you, and Part 2 is how you 

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leverage that to get it done. 
Got it. 

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Let's get into it. 
Welcome back to Tiger Sisters. 

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I'm Cherie. 
And I'm Jean, today is a start 

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the year strong episode and 
we're packaging it differently 

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on purpose. 
January is when teams reset 

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expectations, scope gets 
assigned and promotions are 

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decided way earlier than you 
think. 

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A lot of us had the same 
experience this year. 

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You were reliable, you 
delivered, you did the work, but

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somehow the output didn't match 
the recognition. 

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That gap is what we're calling 
the invisible game. 

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It's basically how competence 
becomes credibility, credibility

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becomes influence, and then 
influence becomes success and 

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compensation. 
So we're bringing you two of our

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most useful conversations with 
tons of examples to create 1 

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Playbook. 
First, you're going to hear from

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Lorraine Kaylee. 
She is an executive presence and

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workplace visibility expert, and
she's also a best selling author

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and keynote speaker. 
And she's going to breakdown for

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us how leaders are perceived in 
meetings, on Zoom and in. 

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High stakes rooms. 
And then next you'll hear from 

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Leah Wire. 
She's the president of 

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Entertainment, Beauty and Style 
at People, Inc, which is the 

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largest digital print publisher 
in America, which includes 

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People magazine, Entertainment 
Weekly, Brides in Style and many

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more. 
She gives us the influence 

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layer, how to navigate politics,
build real allies at work, and 

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how to make your work land 
without feeling performative. 

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Think of this as perception plus
influence. 

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Equals power. 
OK, let's get started with Part 

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1 with Lorraine. 
Today we're talking to Lorraine 

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Kaylee, LinkedIn, top voice and 
author of Unforgettable 

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Presence. 
We're breaking down the unspoken

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rules of the workplace on how to
get seen, heard, and promoted. 

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Welcome to the Tiger Sisters 
podcast, Lorraine. 

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Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really. 

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Excited to be here. 
We're so excited that you're 

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here it. 
Happened. 

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Yay. 
Could you please introduce 

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yourself to the audience in your
own words? 

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Of course. 
Well, I'm Lorraine. 

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I spent the first decade of my 
career leading editorial teams 

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at various tech companies, most 
notably at LinkedIn, where I met

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you, Cherie. 
And now I am a keynote speaker, 

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course creator and author, as 
you mentioned, and also a 

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content creator. 
Yay. 

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So excited. 
Get to dive right in, yeah? 

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Same here. 
OK Lorraine, in your book you 

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say that first impressions form 
in as little as 110th of a 

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second. 
So what are people getting wrong

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in that 110th of a second? 
A lot of people are not thinking

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about the non verbal. 
I think when we are about to 

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meet someone, we think about our
introduction. 

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We know what we want to say. 
We're not thinking about what 

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our body is saying. 
So for example, there's the 

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obvious things like you need to 
have good posture, you want to 

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make eye contact, not have the 
dead fish handshake, right? 

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So have a solid handshake. 
And then there's other things as

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well that we don't think about. 
So let's say I am doing a job 

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interview, right? 
And Sheree, you're going to 

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interview me. 
You come out of your office to 

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meet me and I'm on my cell 
phone. 

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That small moment even that 
takes me to look up, right? 

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Like you're already informing an
impression, right? 

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I'm I'm looking distracted or 
phones signal distraction 

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usually. 
So something as simple as that 

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could also be negatively 
impacting our impression, even 

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like before we've actually said 
anything. 

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And there's other examples too, 
where perhaps we're on a video 

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call, and I don't know if this 
has happened to you, but I will 

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get on a call with someone and 
they will be like, oh, just one 

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second. 
I just have to like send off 

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this message really quick. 
I mean, that's a little bit 

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longer than 110th of a second, 
but that's still setting up the 

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call. 
Not on the best footing. 

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I don't have a good impression. 
I don't have a good feeling. 

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The initial reaction is, oh, 
you're not paying attention to 

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me. 
Like you're not really present. 

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Yeah, that actually reminds me, 
I think first impressions 

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obviously in the professional 
setting, how you show up, how 

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you bring yourself like what 
you're doing, the distraction 

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part. 
But I also remember listening to

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a podcast and is talking about 
first impressions in a romantic 

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setting. 
And apparently on dates, like if

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your person who you're going on 
a date with goes to the 

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bathroom, you're not supposed to
look at your phone while they're

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away. 
Because if they come back and 

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you're looking at your phone, it
signals, like, distraction or 

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perhaps that you're not 
interested on, like, a very, 

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like, subconscious level, but 
also in a romantic place. 

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Like, you're not supposed to 
seem distracted. 

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That's what the podcast was 
saying, yeah. 

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I thought you were gonna take it
in a different direction. 

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I thought you were gonna say 
that like when you go on a first

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date, you kind of know in the 
1st 110th of a second if it's a 

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no or is that just me? 
I think that just maybe. 

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For a few minutes, yeah, yeah. 
No, I feel like, you know, like 

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instinctually in the first 
second if it's a no, you don't 

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know if it's surely. 
Yes, yeah. 

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Vibes and also non verbal cues 
like right? 

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Yes, yes, totally. 
Yeah. 

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Like if someone has like bad 
posture when I first meet that I

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don't like a date I'm like. 
No confidence signals no 

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confidence, Yeah. 
Yeah, Yeah, Exactly, Exactly. 

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Yeah. 
So whether it's like a 

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professional setting, romantic 
setting, like it applies. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Continuing on first impressions,
you call out RBF, which you call

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resting business phase. 
I think other people might know 

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it for something else similar, 
but it's a major career killer 

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that could be silent. 
What's the fix? 

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For RBF, especially in the 
workplace. 

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And and describe it what it is 
first. 

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Yeah, resting business phase, 
we've all seen it. 

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Sometimes maybe we're the ones 
doing it right. 

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We're on a call and what happens
is especially virtually, we're 

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usually at home, we're relaxed. 
So we get on a call and we're 

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just not thinking about our 
facial expressions. 

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So we're either neutral or 
looking kind of angry. 

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And on video, those feelings are
going to be even more magnified,

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right. 
And So what RBF is or the 

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antidote to RBF, it sounds 
really obvious, but first is to 

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smile and be aware of your 
facial expressions. 

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I think just so many of us just 
aren't thinking about it because

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again, we're at home, we're 
comfortable. 

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And so smiling is, is an 
important one. 

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And then there's also, again, 
nonverbal cues and affirmations 

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that you can use on video. 
So nodding your head slowly, 

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maybe raising your eyebrows if 
someone said something 

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interesting, and again, smiling,
right, if what you're what 

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they're saying resonates with 
you. 

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So there's those little things 
that you can do to break free 

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from that RBF and show that 
you're engaged. 

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Because especially if we're 
virtual, we only have so many 

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touch points in a given day. 
And so we want to make sure that

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our video presence is allowing 
us to show up in the way that we

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want to show up. 
I can't help but feel like this 

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advice is especially pertinent 
for women because that's sort of

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what is expected of you in 
society to kind of like exude. 

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I think we'll get into this 
later, but like exude a certain 

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level of warmth. 
And I think a lot of women 

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naturally or are like societally
trained to do that in person. 

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So like if you're not conveying 
that on Zoom or it's harder to 

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convey that on Zoom, then people
are sort of like perceived that 

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negatively versus a man. 
I think men are, you know, often

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times expected to be more stoic 
societally. 

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So like, it's not as much of A 
like a Ding against you as a 

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man, but I totally see how 
that's very applicable as a 

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woman. 
Again, something to be aware of,

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like we don't want to go so over
the top and do something that 

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feels unnatural. 
But again, it's perception is 

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reality, right? 
So how how are people perceiving

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you? 
And you want to be aware of that

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and make adjustments 
accordingly, Yeah. 

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It's something within your 
control that you can try and 

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change, yeah. 
Yeah, I love that. 

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I'm like, on one hand, it's so 
exhausting to like, it's like 

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so, so exhausting. 
But then on the other hand, I'm 

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like, well, I would rather know.
Like I'd rather be aware and 

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have this information and then 
be able to like affect how 

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people perceive me. 
I don't wanna just have no 

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self-awareness. 
Right. 

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I think over time too, it will 
become more natural. 

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Like, of course, if your natural
face is always kind of angry, 

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like going against that, it's 
gonna take a little time to get 

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used to. 
But I think like any skill, like

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you practice and it'll become 
more natural. 

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Yeah, OK. 
OK, so Lorraine, you give 

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scripts in your book to talk 
about how to talk about your 

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accomplishments without seeming 
like you're bragging. 

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So how do you do this? 
The first thing to keep in mind 

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is that we need to be vocal 
about our work. 

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I think so many of us, and 
myself included, you think hard 

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work speaks for itself, but if 
no one knows about it, what's it

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all for, right? 
So we need to know first and 

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foremost that we do in fact have
to talk about our work and make 

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sure that we're being visible. 
So when it comes to advocating 

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for ourselves, to talking about 
our work, there's a few 

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different things that you can 
do. 

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So one thing, for example, there
was data in Harvard Business 

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Review that showed that when you
use more collaboratively 

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language like we, us, our, 
you're actually seen as more 

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senior and more impressive than 
someone who perhaps uses a lot 

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of I statements. 
People who use I statements are 

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going to be seen as more junior,
for example. 

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There's other things that you 
can do as well. 

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00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,680
If you are uncomfortable talking
about your work, frame it in 

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00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:57,080
terms of team learnings, right? 
How is this going to help 

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everyone else? 
Like I'm proud I did this. 

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Like, you know, I think this can
be helpful to the rest of the 

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00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:02,800
team. 
And so again, it's more of that 

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collaborative spirit that I 
think makes it a little bit 

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easier to talk about things, 
things. 

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00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,400
And then always when, whenever 
you can ground it in data facts,

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right? 
No one can really argue with 

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that. 
Tie it to the company's bottom 

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line. 
Every executive, every senior 

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00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,040
leader will be so happy if you 
show them that you are doing 

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work that's helping the 
business, right? 

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00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,040
So I think when you have those 
mindset shifts and you reframe 

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00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,400
things in that way, can be a 
little bit more comfortable for 

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the people who are perhaps a 
little bit more hesitant. 

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00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,760
At LinkedIn, where we both 
worked, we had a really. 

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Not sponsored, not sponsored, 
but maybe. 

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Apps in the future, LinkedIn 
Premium, well, so we had a very 

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clear outlet of how to do this 
in our company, which is there 

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00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,680
are these emails that teams 
could send announcing some of 

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their wins and successes. 
If a company doesn't do that, or

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if an individual is looking to 
gain more visibility, what are 

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some places where people can do 
so? 

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00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,000
Like putting into place some of 
the things you just suggested. 

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00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,040
I love that you brought up those
emails. 

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When I went to Prezi, right 
after I immediately asked my 

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boss, I was like, how can I get 
like, how can I e-mail everyone?

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How can I get everyone on this 
listserv? 

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They didn't have an e-mail like 
that or system like that. 

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So what I did was we did have a 
company intranet, so that 

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actually reached the whole 
company, which was even better 

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than a specific e-mail listserv.
So finding the place where 

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everyone's going to be, asking 
your manager, where are the 

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senior leaders, the decision 
makers showing up? 

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I think that's a really good 
first step. 

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And then you don't have to 
always be so big and so wide 

239
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,040
reaching necessarily, right? 
You want to make sure you're 

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reaching the right people at the
right time. 

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So for example, that might be, 
oh, there's a slack channel with

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the CEO or slack channel with 
the the marketing leader who I 

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00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,160
want to reach. 
And it's not going to be our 

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immediate small channel, but 
it's going to be one that 

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reaches a few more people. 
So that would be a really 

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wonderful Ave. 
And then remember that we don't 

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want to just say things once, 
but we want to try to find 

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different places that we can 
repeat ourselves because 

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everyone's so busy. 
Some of us are in perfect 

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00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,440
person, some of us are remote, 
and so maybe half the people you

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want will end up seeing your 
message once. 

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But repeat it and make sure that
people aren't missing it. 

253
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,320
Can you talk a little bit more 
about the repeated exposure? 

254
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,720
That part is really interesting 
to me and I often forget that 

255
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:19,560
it's needed. 
Yeah. 

256
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,360
So my former CEO used to say 
that you have to repeat things 

257
00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,400
seven times in seven different 
ways before people actually 

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00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:28,920
retain the information process 
what you're saying. 

259
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,960
And so it is really critical. 
Like imagine I send a Slack 

260
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,920
message at 10 AM, right? 
I'm missing a lot of people, 

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00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,960
perhaps in the AIPAC time zone, 
even Europe, right? 

262
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,080
And then there's so many 
messages that happen in a given 

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00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,240
day. 
And so to perhaps time your 

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messages or send it in Slack and
then also maybe send it in an 

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e-mail. 
And then you also maybe mention 

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the whatever it is you're 
learning in the the team 

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00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,360
meeting. 
So that's a way that you can 

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keep promoting yourself and also
helping people at the same time 

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00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:58,800
and making sure that people 
don't miss it. 

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00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,080
I also, I loved your advice 
about if you want to sort of 

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00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,240
like brag or talk about your 
accomplishment to sort of frame 

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00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,320
it in, oh, this is what I 
learned. 

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00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,040
So that it's useful for other 
people. 

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00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,800
Because for me, one thing that 
was always very easy was to talk

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00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,440
about accomplishment when it was
for like a group achievement. 

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Like we, you know, launched a 
major platform or like a major 

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feature. 
Because I felt like that was 

278
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,680
necessary because I wanted to 
shine a light on everyone else 

279
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,400
on my team and I wanted them to 
get the accolades. 

280
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:31,560
I wanted them to get the praise,
etcetera. 

281
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,440
But when it comes to something 
that is like, just me, it just 

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00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,960
feels so cringe and unnatural. 
Yeah. 

283
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,160
So I think it's like more about 
like taking on that mindset, at 

284
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,000
least for me. 
Yeah. 

285
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,440
To be like, OK, the reason I'm 
sharing this is not just to, 

286
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,320
like, show off about what I did,
but it was hard to do this. 

287
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,560
Like, these are all the things 
that I had to learn or I had to 

288
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:54,960
push through. 
And if I can share it and share 

289
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,840
that context, then it's actually
useful for people. 

290
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,280
I'm not just. 
Yeah, showing off for the sake 

291
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:01,880
of showing off. 
Yeah, exactly. 

292
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,680
Everyone always likes a helpful 
teammate, right? 

293
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,240
Yeah, yeah. 
What I'm hearing is that it is 

294
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,080
essential, yeah to have 
visibility within your company. 

295
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,560
But it can be really 
uncomfortable to talk about 

296
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,680
yourself and use I statements, 
which you don't want to do. 

297
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,280
But what you should do is talk 
about your team, what you've 

298
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,280
learned, use WE statements to 
sound more collaborative. 

299
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,640
And it can take like, the ick 
feeling out of kind of bragging 

300
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,360
about yourself because you're 
talking about your team. 

301
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,320
Yeah, I think also this really 
applies to LinkedIn as well when

302
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,520
you're writing a LinkedIn post. 
That's what I was thinking 

303
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,000
about, yeah. 
Like talking about your own 

304
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,760
accomplishment. 
Yeah, because in your book you 

305
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,160
also talk about like posting on 
LinkedIn is really important. 

306
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,800
Yes, in this day and age, 
talking about professional 

307
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,320
achievements, but how you do it 
can still feel uncomfortable. 

308
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,520
So applying this like using the 
WE statements and posting about 

309
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,800
learnings so that you're 
providing something of value to 

310
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,280
your audience and you're not 
just being like, I'm so excited 

311
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:01,720
to announce. 
I'm humbled and. 

312
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,040
Honored. 
Humbled and honored I'm. 

313
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,600
So thrilled. 
I'm so thrilled to announce that

314
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,040
I now have this investment 
banking job. 

315
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,400
Yeah. 
This investment banking, Wow. 

316
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,560
Yeah, yeah. 
Now we know how she really 

317
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,280
feels. 
Yeah, no shame, no shame. 

318
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,360
So, you know, going on a little 
bit tangent here with, with 

319
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,080
LinkedIn, like, you know, I talk
about the, the three types of 

320
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,160
content on LinkedIn, personal, 
professional, educational, and 

321
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,840
then of course the 4th sort of 
bonus pillar or promotional. 

322
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,280
So anytime you can incorporate 
some personal education 

323
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,440
professional tie in, right, it's
going to be a little bit less 

324
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,520
like I'm bragging about myself, 
but I'm either sharing some 

325
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,640
insights, I'm talking about a 
challenge I went through or I'm,

326
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,960
you know, teaching you 
something. 

327
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,240
So it's a way to like buffer it 
a little bit. 

328
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,400
Well, you have a very large 
following on LinkedIn. 

329
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,240
Did you just give us like the 
secret formula of how to write a

330
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,040
successful LinkedIn post? 
I mean, that's, that's one part.

331
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,080
There's a lot of other, other 
factors as well. 

332
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,080
But I think, you know, I came up
with those 3 buckets because a 

333
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,560
lot of people do get really 
nervous posting on LinkedIn. 

334
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,760
Me, yeah. 
I never do it. 

335
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,200
I just like draft off of Sharia 
post where she tags me and I'm 

336
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,720
just like I hope some people see
that. 

337
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,000
Yeah, like it's the question 
that I get most often about 

338
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,360
LinkedIn is, oh, I, I have 
something that I, I want to say,

339
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,040
but you know, I'm hesitant to, 
to click post and I just, I'm 

340
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,520
worried it needs to be the most 
original thought ever. 

341
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,960
And what I tell people is 
nothing on LinkedIn is original.

342
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:28,600
Don't worry. 
Don't put that stress on 

343
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,440
yourself. 
Yeah, the people who stand out 

344
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,480
are the people who are talking 
about their experiences. 

345
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,440
People are connecting to them as
a person, right? 

346
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,200
And, and, and maybe the way that
they're framing things, again, 

347
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,640
like everyone, the content is 
all the same, but the way people

348
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,560
are packaging it and the, the 
people themselves are different.

349
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,280
And so I think there's a, you 
know, people don't need to put 

350
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,760
so much pressure on themselves. 
And so hopefully for the 

351
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,240
listeners, that's something 
that, you know, gives them 

352
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,080
encouragement that, yeah, it's 
OK to post. 

353
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,000
And you don't have to be perfect
or feel like, yeah, you're, 

354
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,360
you're completely original. 
You're like the LinkedIn 

355
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,880
therapist. 
Truly, they are. 

356
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,160
Yeah. 
I feel so much better. 

357
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,160
I'm like, oh, I could do this. 
Wait, So what were the three 

358
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,720
buckets that you. 
Wanted so personal, educational,

359
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:11,680
professional. 
OK. 

360
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,920
And you want to try to hit all 
of them, all three or as you. 

361
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,319
Can you can Nixon match? 
Yeah. 

362
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,839
I think what usually happens is 
most people will start off with 

363
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,000
educational. 
I think that's the probably the 

364
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,000
easiest, right. 
I'm teaching someone something 

365
00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:25,319
professional will be, oh, 
there's something happening in 

366
00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:27,520
the news or in my industry that 
I want to talk about. 

367
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,320
And the hardest one but I think 
is but resonates the most is the

368
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,600
personal. 
So the personal stories, you 

369
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,840
know, take some time to build up
to it. 

370
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,040
Again, you don't have to put 
that pressure on yourself to to 

371
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,920
share all your deepest, 
starkest, you know, challenges 

372
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,640
and stories right away. 
But in due time, like you'll get

373
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,600
more comfortable mixing it in. 
And then you'll realize by doing

374
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,440
that, you're going to meet more 
people. 

375
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,560
More people are going to engage 
with you, resonate with you. 

376
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,520
And so, yeah, those are the 
three. 

377
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,080
I'm gonna, after this, I'm gonna
go and study all of your 

378
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,200
LinkedIn program like a 
workbook. 

379
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,280
Nice. 
Let me know what you think 

380
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,080
after. 
In our next section, we're going

381
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,440
to talk about writing like a 
leader. 

382
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,960
And in your book, you share that
adding the word because a very 

383
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,080
simple word, adding that to a 
sentence increases people's 

384
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,520
willingness and also compliance 
to do what you're asking by 93%,

385
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,480
which is a lot. 
What's an everyday way to use 

386
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,960
that power without it feeling 
ick or kind of manipulative? 

387
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,120
With the word, because I think 
the most common use case would 

388
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,640
probably be with deadlines. 
Now, ideally your team is 

389
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,440
meeting deadlines and following 
through, but sometimes you need 

390
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,320
to give them a reason. 
So in my last role at Prezi, I 

391
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,760
mentioned I sent out that weekly
newsletter, right? 

392
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,400
And so I needed my team to add 
things to it and to make sure 

393
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,880
that it was complete so I could 
publish it for the rest of the 

394
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,040
company. 
And so an example of where I 

395
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,840
might use that is can you please
fill this out by Friday because 

396
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,400
I'm really excited to talk about
what you did this week with the 

397
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,320
company or even the study that 
you're talking about, Cherie's 

398
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,520
Xerox study. 
You can even give not that great

399
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,560
a reason and people will still 
will still be more inclined to 

400
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,120
actually do the thing. 
So, you know, instead of can you

401
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,960
turn this to me on on Thursday? 
I might say, can you deliver 

402
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,760
this by Thursday because I'm 
going to be out of office on 

403
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,720
Friday. 
So very simple. 

404
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,600
I don't know why just that word 
just gives people a reason, 

405
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,240
right? 
And when you have a reason, it's

406
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,120
like, oh, OK, now I know why I 
need to take action. 

407
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:26,960
You're not just telling me to do
something or asking me to do 

408
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,680
something without a reason 
behind it. 

409
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,600
Yeah, I vaguely remember the 
study. 

410
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,520
It was like people, someone was 
standing in line and he wanted 

411
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,520
to cut the lines, make copies, 
right. 

412
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,520
And he had to skip people like a
Kinko's or something. 

413
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,520
And in some of the instances, 
they had him say nothing but 

414
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,320
just ask. 
Some of the instances they had 

415
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,840
him say because. 
And then, like a really good 

416
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:49,560
reason. 
Yeah. 

417
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,880
And some of the instances it was
just like, because. 

418
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,080
And then a lame reason that 
didn't even make any sense. 

419
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:56,840
Or like, you wouldn't even. 
Exactly. 

420
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,920
So it was like the first one 
was, you know, I'm can I, can I 

421
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:01,840
skip the line? 
Like most people are going to 

422
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,040
say no. 
And then the next one was, oh, 

423
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,000
can I skip the line because I'm 
in a rush to make copies? 

424
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,360
So then again, a lot of people 
said, OK, sure. 

425
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,760
And then the next one was can I 
skip the line because I need to 

426
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,360
make copies? 
So that was the one that was 

427
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,480
like, yeah, duh. 
Like not that great of a reason 

428
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,880
we're all here still. 
Like most people said, yeah, go 

429
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,360
ahead. 
So. 

430
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,920
The power of the word becomes 
even if the reason's not good. 

431
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,120
Yeah. 
I'll be like. 

432
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:34,240
Be careful with that power. 
It actually reminds me, one of 

433
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,880
my friends just told me that her
mom has this like superpower 

434
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,640
where everywhere she goes, 
she'll ask for a discount like 

435
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,520
just because, which I've like 
heard of people doing that. 

436
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,840
But she says that she does it 
even at like designer stores. 

437
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,880
And she said that like, for 
example, she'll be at like Louis

438
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,560
Vuitton and then when she's, you
know, talking to the essay, the 

439
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,360
sales associate, she'll be like,
you know, what can you do for 

440
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,080
me? 
Like I would like, I would like 

441
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,400
a discount because, because. 
I want one. 

442
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,480
Because yes, she wouldn't really
have the reason, but she'd be 

443
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:09,840
like, can I have your employee 
discount? 

444
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,720
And then they give it to her. 
Wow. 

445
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,160
So like, hey, I was so shook it 
when she told me this. 

446
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,680
I was like, what? 
I'm like, first of all, I don't 

447
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,480
shop at Louis Vuitton, but you 
know, I'm going to be walking 

448
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,880
out. 
Maybe now Dior, like Dior, watch

449
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,840
out, I'm going to be coming in 
and asking for some sort of 

450
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,960
discount because. 
I need one. 

451
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,400
Yeah. 
It's so interesting. 

452
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,800
I think generally I am a person 
who has a hard time asking for 

453
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,080
things at all. 
Like whether it's in the 

454
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,200
workplace, whether it's personal
or romantic. 

455
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,800
Like I just have a hard time 
asking for help, for example, or

456
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,480
just asking for things. 
But I think I should experiment 

457
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,560
with being a bit more liberal 
with it and attach the word 

458
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,600
because to see what would 
happen, yeah. 

459
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,080
You should have a follow up 
episode where you just use 

460
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,000
because and just like random 
situation and then like come 

461
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,320
back and be like. 
What worked? 

462
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,600
We can test it out ourselves. 
Yeah, yeah. 

463
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,440
OK, in your book you introduce 
the concept of an e-mail haiku. 

464
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,040
What is it and why do executives
love it? 

465
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,360
So this idea is actually Kim 
Scott. 

466
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:20,360
So she's the author of Radical 
Candor, one of the three dozen 

467
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,800
amazing, amazing business 
leaders I got to interview for 

468
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,800
this book. 
And what she said was the e-mail

469
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,560
haiku is essentially a very 
thoughtful way of communicating.

470
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,760
And what you want to do is a 
haiku is very short, right? 

471
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,480
When you write an e-mail, you 
also want your e-mail to be very

472
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,440
short and essentially be able to
fit on a smartphone screen 

473
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,920
without needing to scroll. 
I like that. 

474
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,800
Yeah, because people are busy, 
especially executives are busy, 

475
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,960
but you want to really think 
through like, what can I 

476
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,840
eliminate? 
What's extra, So many of us are 

477
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,840
go, go, go. 
So the way we're communicating, 

478
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,360
we're shooting off messages here
and there. 

479
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:55,800
We're not really being 
thoughtful. 

480
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,960
And then when that happens, OK, 
now my coworker has to follow up

481
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,360
for clarification or now, you 
know, they're missing the actual

482
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:03,760
question. 
We're going back and forth and 

483
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,760
wasting time. 
But the e-mail high coach is a 

484
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,880
very concise way of 
communicating your message, 

485
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,160
being respectful about the 
recipient's time. 

486
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,320
And then yeah, you're going to 
have to use a little bit extra 

487
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,240
time, 20-30 minutes to think 
through that. 

488
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,040
But it's going to lead to more 
productive, collaborative teams 

489
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,720
and your Co worker is going to 
appreciate you more. 

490
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,520
Yeah, I so I took a class at 
Stanford and it was a really 

491
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,920
famous writing class called 
Winning Writing with Glenn 

492
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,120
Cramon, who was a New York Times
editor for 37 years. 

493
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:31,440
Incredible. 
He's. 

494
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,440
Hi, Glenn. 
Hi, Glenn. 

495
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,160
Hope you're welcome. 
He's fantastic. 

496
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,360
And you know, there's this one 
part of the class where we talk 

497
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:42,720
about e-mail sell hygiene and 
how to write like a good e-mail 

498
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,640
so that it gets a response. 
And like one thing like you 

499
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,480
mentioned that's like super 
simple is like what will fit on 

500
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,600
a smartphone? 
Like I think that is so smart 

501
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,160
because most people are on the 
go now and they don't check 

502
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,280
their e-mail at their desk as 
like the first thing that they 

503
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,600
do. 
They're mostly on their phone. 

504
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,120
So like figuring out what is the
subject line because they'll 

505
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:03,080
probably just read the subject 
line like that's. 

506
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,160
Such that's really important 
too. 

507
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,120
Important real estate. 
Yeah, yeah. 

508
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,760
I mean, that's, I mean, that's 
the that makes them want to open

509
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,640
it, right? 
So subject lines are so 

510
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,200
important. 
Action needed FY, just FYI, no 

511
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,920
response needed. 
Due April 7th. 

512
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,960
Like whatever information you 
can include that will make 

513
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,640
someone open it, realize that 
it's time sensitive or even not 

514
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,120
time sensitive, right? 
Like that's that's your opening.

515
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:27,160
That's your first impression, 
right. 

516
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,000
But over e-mail, yeah. 
This might be taking it to the 

517
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,600
extreme, but when I worked in 
finance, a lot of times we would

518
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,920
just write the whole message in 
the subject line and try to keep

519
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,600
it as short as possible. 
And at the end of it, we would 

520
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,800
write EOM like in parentheses, 
end of message, I've heard so 

521
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,320
that they never even have to 
open nice the e-mail. 

522
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,480
They can just like read the 
subject line and then know the 

523
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:50,280
information. 
Yeah. 

524
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,360
That's a that's a hard exercise.
You have to keep that tight. 

525
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,280
Yeah, yeah. 
And I think it was just, it was 

526
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,240
just like the common what 
everyone did. 

527
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,480
So I never thought twice about 
it was like, OK, got to make a 

528
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,840
really short message. 
EOM. 

529
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,760
Yeah, perfect. 
Yeah, kind of a power move too. 

530
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,080
Yeah. 
So the next thing we're going to

531
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,560
talk about is more of the non 
verbal cues that we kind of 

532
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,640
started on. 
So you cite research that hand 

533
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:23,400
gestures when you're talking 
increase anecdote recall by 33%.

534
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,520
Just basically people 
remembering what you say. 

535
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:32,240
How do we use this in everyday 
life, and how do we also use 

536
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,960
this while we're on a Zoom call?
I wanna talk about the Zoom call

537
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,600
first because I feel like that's
where most people miss using 

538
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,720
body language. 
So there has been research that 

539
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,240
has been shown that when you use
your hands on camera, you appear

540
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,240
warmer, more personable, more 
energetic, more trustworthy, 

541
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:49,400
right? 
Cuz you're showing your hands. 

542
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,240
Is that what you're doing now? 
I'm not I'm just cuz I'm like so

543
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,360
used to using them so 
energetically on video. 

544
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,480
It like translated to in person 
things. 

545
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,840
But anyways, like all these 
really positive things on video 

546
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,040
and that, I mean, we want those 
things right, simply by showing 

547
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,720
your hands. 
And so everyone's just the, the 

548
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,520
first way to do that is to make 
sure on video that you have your

549
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,920
framing correct. 
So what you want to do, a lot of

550
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,360
people, it's like way up close 
and personal with your face or 

551
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:19,320
it's, you know, coming from the 
top. 

552
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,240
So it's not really seeing your 
whole body. 

553
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,760
So what you want to do is you 
want about like 3 to 5 fingers 

554
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,120
worth of space above the top of 
your head between the top of 

555
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,400
the, the camera frame. 
And then you want to actually 

556
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,720
show a little bit of your torso 
on camera. 

557
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,400
So a lot of people, they kind of
cut it off here. 

558
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,160
And so if you were to use your 
hands on camera with the video 

559
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,800
cut off here, your hands are 
like by your head, which is 

560
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,240
super strange, right? 
Like you're just like this the 

561
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,120
whole time. 
However, down here now you just 

562
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,400
have to lift your hands a little
bit higher than it feels normal 

563
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,680
to get them to fit in the 
camera. 

564
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,360
What a lot of people do is they 
keep their hands down on their 

565
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:50,560
lap. 
Again, we're relaxed, we're at 

566
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,040
home on their lap, on their 
keyboard, on their mouse. 

567
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,640
So they're moving their hands. 
But all what you're seeing is 

568
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,840
little twitches of the 
shoulders, maybe a finger 

569
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,200
popping in and out of the 
screen. 

570
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,080
And So what we want is to again,
adjust the framing so that we 

571
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,480
can move our hands higher up and
then use them naturally. 

572
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,440
I think we shouldn't need to or 
shouldn't try to overthink it 

573
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:10,920
too much because I know we can 
get in our heads. 

574
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,600
And it's like, how do I use my 
hands again? 

575
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,960
Like what's natural? 
But if you just relax, like your

576
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,680
hands will move naturally as you
speak. 

577
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,680
So yeah, a lot of a lot of 
really great benefits. 

578
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,680
And then, yeah, like you said, 
should be like more message 

579
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,600
recall, like you just see more 
engaging. 

580
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,600
It's more interesting to see 
movement on screen, right, 

581
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,680
versus just me sitting still 
with just my head, for example. 

582
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,160
So yeah, very, very powerful 
thing to include on video calls 

583
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,960
and presentations and meetings 
that still a lot of people 

584
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,120
aren't doing. 
Yeah. 

585
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,360
I think that makes so much sense
psychologically when you think 

586
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:42,680
through it because they do all 
these studies on like what? 

587
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,920
What is that kids TV show on 
YouTube? 

588
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,920
The reason why kids are so 
addicted to it is because they 

589
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,200
change the screen every two 
seconds or something like Coco 

590
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:52,720
melon. 
Coco Melon, Yes. 

591
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,960
It's like psychological. 
They set it up so that they 

592
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,760
flashed a different screen every
two seconds, which is like, 

593
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,920
that's why kids are like, so 
locked into it. 

594
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,520
And so like, it's kind of the 
same idea if you're watching 

595
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,080
someone and talking to them on 
camera, like adding the hand 

596
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,400
movements is just more dynamic. 
Yeah. 

597
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,360
And it just adds another element
of interest. 

598
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,120
And then it just like it's not 
just your head and your face, 

599
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,360
like the whole time talking and 
you're like, you know, barely 

600
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,520
changing your expression. 
Yeah. 

601
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,160
So it's more, I don't know, It's
just like human psychology, you 

602
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,960
know, unless you do this, just 
human psychology. 

603
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,720
There's like, more interesting. 
Yeah. 

604
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,640
You're like following. 
Something, yeah, you're more 

605
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,440
engaged when you also have like 
your hands free to like. 

606
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,840
It's like a third element of 
interest. 

607
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,960
Exactly. 
And also helps reinforce your 

608
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,200
message too. 
Yeah. 

609
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,800
So it's going to like add 
emphasis when you need to add 

610
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,000
emphasis. 
And yeah, just more memorable. 

611
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,640
Yeah, we had an executive 
presence class, like basically 

612
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,320
public speaking class at 
Stanford, and we had one lecture

613
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,200
that was dedicated. 
Now I'm using my hands. 

614
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,000
Yeah. 
So you just have to think about 

615
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,760
it and then like, yeah, it comes
naturally. 

616
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,880
We had one lecture that was 
dedicated to matching your hand 

617
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,880
movements to what you're saying.
So making sure that the vocal 

618
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,960
and the visual were aligned. 
And obviously like you don't 

619
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,160
want to do too much hand 
movement, but if they can 

620
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,160
complement each other, like the 
message really sticks. 

621
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,280
For example, like if you're 
going to name things, and this 

622
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,120
is mainly for like stage public 
speaking. 

623
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,200
So not really like this, but 
like if you're on stage and like

624
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,600
you want to enumerate things, 
you can be like 1/2 and three. 

625
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,760
Or if you're talking to an 
audience and it's broken up into

626
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,160
like threes, you can do like the
first thing to like one side, 

627
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,680
the second thing to like the 
middle, and then the third 

628
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,240
you're looking to the other side
of the room. 

629
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,680
But there's ways to match up 
your physical presence with your

630
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,960
message so that people are like,
not only deeply engaged but also

631
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,080
like following along. 
Yeah, exactly. 

632
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,400
And I think it gives the 
impression also that like you're

633
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,120
locked in to your own message 
and what you're saying that you 

634
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,120
have a lot of like, like belief 
behind it, basically, if you're 

635
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,960
like putting your whole body. 
Emphatically. 

636
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,000
Yeah, emphatically. 
You're like, it seems like you 

637
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,360
believe your message more as 
opposed to like, oh, you're kind

638
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,680
of just like talking. 
Yeah. 

639
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,440
And even if you're not on stage 
and you're saying like 1-2 

640
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,880
three, I think like naturally 
when I enumerate, I'm like, 

641
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,560
well, 12. 
Three. 

642
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,600
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, the energy is also a huge 

643
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,640
piece on video that we're 
lacking, so the body language 

644
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,040
really adds. 
Adds to that. 

645
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,640
I think I can trick myself, like
if I'm on Zoom and I'm like low 

646
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,040
energy for a meeting, I might be
able to trick myself into being 

647
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,400
higher energy if I use my hands 
more, yeah. 

648
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,040
Yeah, I can trick myself if I 
have a huge cup of Marcha. 

649
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,800
That's part of it. 
That works as well, yeah. 

650
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,400
OK, let's move on to the section
about confidence, language and 

651
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,440
authority, OK? 
Are you say that one of the 

652
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,640
phrases we should try to avoid 
is? 

653
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,360
Does this make sense? 
Is it ever OK to use this 

654
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,280
phrase, or is it always 
undermining your message? 

655
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,040
That is by far when I teach 
about executive presence and, 

656
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,400
and communication, when I talk 
about minimizing language and 

657
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,200
the need to remove minimizing 
language, which are words or 

658
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,800
phrases that weaken your message
and then make you look less 

659
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,240
confident or less sure of 
yourself. 

660
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,200
Does that make sense? 
Whenever I give that one as an 

661
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,880
example, everyone in the chat is
always firing off like, oh, I 

662
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,280
just use that like 3 times 
today. 

663
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,200
And, and you know, I've used it 
too. 

664
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,080
And so with that, it, it feels 
like you're being collaborated, 

665
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,040
like I'm asking you, does does 
that make sense? 

666
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,480
Yeah, let me know, right? 
But when you ask it like that, 

667
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,400
it can make it seem like you're 
not actually sure if what you 

668
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,240
actually said does in fact make 
sense. 

669
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,760
And so small tweak, let me know 
if you have any questions. 

670
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,600
So now you're sure about what 
you just said and you're still 

671
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,320
inviting collaboration in. 
So there's a lot of phrases like

672
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,840
that that we use throughout the 
day without even realizing it. 

673
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,560
But again, those small tweaks 
make you come across as a lot 

674
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,560
more powerful, confident, 
authoritative. 

675
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,200
Minimizing language, yeah. 
What are some other examples of 

676
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,240
like minimizing language that we
should avoid? 

677
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,960
Because I feel like I probably 
have a lot of those in my 

678
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,440
vocabulary. 
Another one that's really common

679
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,680
is because we're in so many 
back-to-back meetings, we're 

680
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,120
sometimes running late. 
So we join a meeting and we're 

681
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,000
kind of frantic and we're like, 
oh, my sorry, sorry, sorry, 

682
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,920
sorry I'm late instead. 
You might change that too. 

683
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,600
Thank you so much for your 
patience. 

684
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,000
Really appreciate it. 
So instead of coming in kind of 

685
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,040
frenzied and forcing the other 
person to say no, no, it's OK 

686
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,800
right now. 
The person feels good, you're 

687
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,760
showing appreciation, You're 
starting the meeting off on a 

688
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,640
more positive footing. 
Oh, no problem. 

689
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,320
Yeah, let's get started. 
Instead of using I think all the

690
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,680
time, you might say I recommend 
or. 

691
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,600
The data suggests that. 
So again, like really, really 

692
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,200
small tweaks, but it makes a big
difference over time. 

693
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,160
Yeah, I think it's also like now
we have like more confidence in 

694
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,880
what we're talking about and 
more confidence in ourselves. 

695
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,600
And that just comes across no 
matter what you're talking 

696
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,400
about. 
I agree, but practice really 

697
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,920
does help. 
The next question is, I guess, 

698
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,240
is it spicy? 
Maybe a little. 

699
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,760
A little bit, just a little, a 
little spicy, a little spicy. 

700
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,360
OK, so I think we've all seen 
this in the workplace or heard 

701
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,640
about it from a friend of a 
friend. 

702
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,720
But like often times, confident 
people, confident women get 

703
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,320
overlooked because they're 
interrupted and there's a person

704
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,120
in the workplace. 
Maybe it's a narcissist, like 

705
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,240
someone who's very loud, they 
they get promoted because 

706
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,680
they're the ones that are heard 
more. 

707
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,000
Why do you think this dynamic 
plays out and what do you think 

708
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,400
needs to change? 
I think it goes back to that 

709
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,480
visibility discussion we had 
earlier where, yeah, if you're 

710
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,200
if you're louder, people are 
going to see you. 

711
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,560
Now, I don't think it makes 
sense to always reward the 

712
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,560
really loud person just because 
they're loud. 

713
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,120
Like you need to be able to back
it up. 

714
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,120
And my hope is if someone were 
promoting someone simply because

715
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,600
they were loud, at a certain 
point they would realize, oh, 

716
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,760
this person can't go any farther
because they're actually doing 

717
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,040
the good work, right? 
But I think it is really 

718
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,000
critical to talk about your work
and make it known. 

719
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,080
And I think what happens often 
during those critical promotion 

720
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,240
times that we're not taught, and
I certainly didn't know this 

721
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,440
when I, you know, first tried to
go out for a promotion, is that,

722
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,640
oh, you're not supposed to bring
it up right when review time is 

723
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,120
happening. 
Like this is a thing that needs 

724
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,200
to be thought about months in 
advance. 

725
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,159
So there's actually quite a lot 
of strategy behind it. 

726
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,679
So instead of telling my manager
after I wrote my review, oh, you

727
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:14,760
know, I'd love to get promoted 
this cycle, this is a 

728
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,960
conversation I should have 
mentioned six months ahead of 

729
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,400
time. 
I should have a better 

730
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,600
understanding of who's going to 
be in the room. 

731
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,159
And there are in fact, other 
people in the room, which I also

732
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:24,800
did not realize. 
I thought it was just my manager

733
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,560
just decided waiting. 
OK, Lorraine's ready, right. 

734
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,760
So who's in the room? 
Do they know that you want to 

735
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,000
get promoted? 
What are the skills that might 

736
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,880
be missing or what what is 
potentially stopping you from 

737
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,719
getting that promotion? 
How can you address it? 

738
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,400
Again, give yourself that time, 
right, so that you can actually 

739
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,840
prepare for when the actual 
discussion happened. 

740
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,960
So I think that foresight and, 
you know, throughout the book, 

741
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,280
I'm talking about being 
intentional about your career, 

742
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,880
becoming the CEO of your own 
career. 

743
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,199
That's really about taking 
things into your own hands. 

744
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,840
And yeah, maybe that loud 
annoying guy is getting 

745
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,239
promoted, but don't let him be a
cloud over you. 

746
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,560
Like make your voice heard too 
by being more strategic, by 

747
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,920
being thoughtful about it, not 
just being that loud annoying 

748
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,120
voice. 
I think people don't realize 

749
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,160
that there is so much strategy 
that goes behind promotion and 

750
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,840
promotion decisions. 
And I think just that sentence I

751
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,040
said sounds really ick, but I 
it's kind of the truth at the 

752
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,240
corporate workplace. 
And I think a lot of people who 

753
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:21,880
are early or mid career are like
they don't know that are 

754
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,720
starting to figure that out. 
And let me add a point there 

755
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,240
that I didn't even mention is 
that you first have to let your 

756
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:30,040
manager know that you want to 
get promoted and say it again. 

757
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,840
I assumed that they would know. 
Of course, I'm ambitious. 

758
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,120
Like, who doesn't want to get 
promoted? 

759
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,080
Well, actually there's a lot of 
people who don't want to get 

760
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,920
promoted and who are happy with 
where they are. 

761
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,640
So we have to make it known in 
the 1st place. 

762
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,960
And then again, like we were 
talking about repeating things 

763
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,000
multiple time. 
I mean, you're not going to want

764
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,480
to bring it up everyone on one 
meeting every week, but make it 

765
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,760
known like keep repeating it. 
Make sure your manager doesn't 

766
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,440
forget about it. 
Yeah. 

767
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,840
And I think the benefit of 
bringing it up early with your 

768
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,560
manager is that they can kind of
make a plan for you ahead of 

769
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,520
time and then you can work on 
that plan together. 

770
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,480
And then it feels like it's like
this joint. 

771
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,080
Effort they can advocate. 
For you or they have to advocate

772
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,520
for you, but yes, and they they 
can start to advocate. 

773
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,360
They can plant the seeds early 
on on your behalf because then 

774
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,160
like not only do you have to let
them know, they have to start 

775
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,520
doing the legwork like months in
advance so that they figure out 

776
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:18,960
who else is going to be in that 
room. 

777
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,920
I guess I'm speaking about this 
from my perspective of having 

778
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,280
been a manager and done this. 
They have to figure out who else

779
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,760
is going to be in the room. 
Who do I need to also, you know,

780
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,920
vote yes for my direct report 
and who do I think is going to 

781
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,320
have objections? 
How do I like work against those

782
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,600
objections or start to, you 
know, mollify them months in 

783
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,480
advance? 
What do they think? 

784
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,520
How do I need to? 
How can I work with my direct of

785
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,000
course so that they can start to
address these things directly 

786
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,520
with this person? 
There's like so. 

787
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,440
Much, so much to do. 
So much work that goes into it 

788
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,320
and I think yes, you're totally,
totally right that the first 

789
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,920
thing you need to do is bring 
your manager on board so that 

790
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,720
you're both like, it's the two 
of you, like against the world 

791
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,720
kind of feeling. 
Yeah, they're going to be more 

792
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:03,280
invested if if you bring them 
in. 

793
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,600
Yeah, they have to be very 
invested because honestly, it's 

794
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,920
a lot of work for them. 
So in the workplace, in the big 

795
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,320
corporations where there is a 
lot of behind the scenes that 

796
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,360
needs to happen for promotion to
happen, does your boss need to 

797
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,120
like you in order for you to get
promoted? 

798
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,320
Because there's a lot of things 
that you have to do, like you 

799
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,600
just named. 
Yeah, they have to like you. 

800
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,480
Even if they don't like your 
personality, they have to like 

801
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,880
what you bring to the table. 
And you have to make their lives

802
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,200
like 10 times easier. 
Yeah, in some way or the other, 

803
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,440
whether or not you're it's your 
like sunny and beautiful 

804
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,880
disposition and presence every 
single day, or you're like the. 

805
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,120
Results. 
Yeah. 

806
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,720
Or like you're, you know, a 10X 
performer, Yeah. 

807
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,640
And I think that they'll respect
you, right? 

808
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,560
I mean, maybe they don't like 
your personality or you're not 

809
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,360
like best friends, but they have
to respect your work, respect 

810
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,760
what you do, like your career. 
Lorraine, thank you so much for 

811
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,360
being here and giving us the 
real talk. 

812
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:01,880
Of course, thank you for having 
me. 

813
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,920
This was amazing, so fun. 
We didn't just talk about 

814
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,560
communication and visibility, 
but really what it takes to be 

815
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,720
unforgettable in the workplace. 
And you really gave us the 

816
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:17,680
playbook on how to speak and how
to present ourselves so people 

817
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,240
listen. 
So we always say that we want to

818
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:25,160
be the internet's career mentors
and Big Sisters that we never 

819
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,760
had. 
And today you were the trusted 

820
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,920
expert that we all needed. 
You were practical, you were 

821
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,240
empowering and really just 
bringing so much wisdom and like

822
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,120
kind big sister energy and 
information to all of our 

823
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,080
listeners. 
So thank you so much, Oh my. 

824
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,000
Gosh, thank you. 
This was seriously so fun. 

825
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,920
So guys, if this conversation 
made you rethink your presence 

826
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,520
or your LinkedIn posts or any 
sort of announcements you were 

827
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,960
trying to make, please take 10 
seconds to like, follow and 

828
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,520
subscribe and also rate US five 
stars on Spotify and also Apple 

829
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,040
Podcasts. 
It really makes oh because, 

830
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,840
because, because it really helps
our podcast be discovered and 

831
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,680
shared with other people. 
Awesome. 

832
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,280
We'll see you next time on the 
Tiger Sisters podcast. 

833
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,480
Bye. 
Wow, that was an incredible 

834
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,440
episode and interview with 
Lorraine. 

835
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,480
And if the first half made you 
realize so I'm being misread or 

836
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,280
misunderstood, that's not a bad 
thing. 

837
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,360
That's actually a really good 
thing to know. 

838
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,640
Exactly, because once you know 
the signal that you're putting 

839
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,520
out, then you can actually 
change the outcome, not by 

840
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,360
necessarily changing yourself, 
but by really changing the 

841
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,840
message that you're putting out 
there. 

842
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,640
And so now we're switching to 
the second-half of our episode 

843
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,400
where we talk about influence. 
It's all about turning 

844
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,840
perception into trust scope. 
And new opportunities. 

845
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,560
And as you guys listen to the 
next episode, we want you to 

846
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,960
think about one thing that you 
want to make happen by the end 

847
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,800
of Q1. 
Is it a comp bump? 

848
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,400
Is it being more influential? 
Is it having a bigger role? 

849
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,680
And listen to the exact language
that you can borrow from Leah. 

850
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,000
And the higher you go, the more 
you're managing perceptions, 

851
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,400
politics, and honestly, your own
nervous system. 

852
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,720
Yeah, and I love how Leah is so 
honest about all the different 

853
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:08,880
ways she's done it in the past 
with all these examples, and she

854
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,400
basically tells you how to do it
also in real time. 

855
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:14,080
Great. 
So let's get into Part 2 with 

856
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,240
Leah Wire. 
Hi, Leah. 

857
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,160
Hi. 
Hi, we're so excited that you're

858
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,640
here. 
Could you please introduce 

859
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,480
yourself to the audience in your
own words? 

860
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,400
Sure. 
So my name is Leah Wire and I am

861
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,040
the president of the beauty, 
style and entertainment brands 

862
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,920
at dot Dash Meredith. 
So those are people 

863
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:36,440
Entertainment Weekly in style 
Birdie brides people in Espanol.

864
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,600
Wow. 
An iconic list. 

865
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,760
It keeps going, keeps going it. 
Can't go no more editions, we're

866
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,720
good. 
Yeah, I feel like a a 

867
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,200
misconception that a lot of 
people have is that beauty 

868
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,400
editors just spend their whole 
day like playing with lip gloss 

869
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,320
or something like that. 
But in reality, even when you 

870
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,160
were at Cosmo, you were in 
charge of basically generating 

871
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,280
the majority of revenue for for 
the business. 

872
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,240
So when was the moment where you
kind of realized like, oh shit, 

873
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,440
like I am a really powerful 
businesswoman? 

874
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,760
It was never lost on me that 
there was a business role to 

875
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:18,200
play as a the beauty editor. 
Now, you had the creative side 

876
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:23,040
of being a beauty editor, which 
was you had a blank slate of 

877
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,040
pages every month that you had 
to fill. 

878
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,240
You had to create a direct 
feature or something that you 

879
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:30,720
were doing on set. 
So it's all this right brain 

880
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:33,360
stuff that happened. 
But it was very clear from the 

881
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,400
start. 
And I had first been hired as 

882
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,280
the beauty and style editor for 
Health magazine, which didn't 

883
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,760
you don't think that did a lot 
of beauty, but we actually did 

884
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,960
do a lot of sort of Wellness 
beauty before it was, it's 

885
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,160
really a trend and it was a lot 
of skin, a lot of science. 

886
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,560
And I love that because the 1st 
10 years of being a beauty 

887
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,360
editor, I was at all these 
different Wellness magazines. 

888
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,120
So it's at Health magazine and 
Self magazine, fitness magazine.

889
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,120
And so you had like, you learned
how to be like a real reporter, 

890
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,800
how to respect science, how to 
read studies, all of this stuff 

891
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,320
that was that made the stories 
really meaty and interesting. 

892
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,720
You had to balance the business 
side of of being a beauty 

893
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:18,400
editor, which meant being super 
aware of who your advertisers 

894
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,800
were and really meant like 
paying attention to what they 

895
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,480
were launching. 
And you had to have this dance 

896
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,120
of like, OK, so advertiser X was
launching something that that 

897
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,600
would be interesting to your 
readers. 

898
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,840
That's what you had to focus on.
Like, what's the hook for my 

899
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,640
readers? 
And you just started, like with 

900
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,760
every magazine, it was a 
different way of doing that 

901
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,240
business. 
It was really like up the ante 

902
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:44,600
when I got to Cosmo because 
Beauty drove so much of Cosmo 

903
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,200
Cosmo's revenue. 
And that I think was the moment 

904
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,720
where I was like, wow, I almost 
equally report in to the editor 

905
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:56,280
in chief as I do to the 
publisher. 

906
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,040
Constantly on sales calls with 
your sales team, with your 

907
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,600
publisher, you're in the room 
with these incredibly important 

908
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:10,040
and brilliant CMO's who are 
asking you to suggest ideas to 

909
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,880
them for their business that 
would work for your readership. 

910
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,760
And so you start to develop this
marketing skill. 

911
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,960
It was just a different way of 
doing the business side of being

912
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,360
a beauty editor. 
And that I think really happened

913
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,640
when I got to Cosmo. 
So that was maybe like 10 years 

914
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,280
into my career. 
Like I'm just imagining being in

915
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,560
that role and the amount of kind
of like, I guess like finesse 

916
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,480
and also strategy that you have 
to have is I can just imagine 

917
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,760
it's like very high level 
because you have so many 

918
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,200
stakeholders and like every 
decision that you make results 

919
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:48,080
in like kind of more or less 
revenue for your business, for 

920
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,120
their business, for your 
interest, for your readership. 

921
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:55,560
Like, yes, it's very high risk 
because the advertisers at Cosmo

922
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,440
was a mass brand. 
I mean, it still is. 

923
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,040
So it's very much appealing to 
not just the coasts, right, Like

924
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,760
there were there are fashion and
style magazines that are really 

925
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,680
appealing to the coast. 
Different type of reader, 

926
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,800
different type of advertiser. 
When you have a brand like 

927
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:17,240
Cosmo, even a brand like people,
very middle of America, very 

928
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:21,880
just sort of everyday person, 
those advertisers are like the 

929
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,000
money bags like PNG Unilever, 
L'Oreal, like all of these 

930
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,720
brands. 
And so to be in the room with 

931
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:33,280
these type of people, learn how 
to pitch an idea, learn how to 

932
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,960
craft it in your mind in the 
moment, because usually those 

933
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,160
things are coming up in a 
brainstorming session that's 

934
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,800
live. 
You don't really have a ton of 

935
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,760
time to prepare for it. 
And they want that like they 

936
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,680
want you in the room listening. 
This is my objective. 

937
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,880
What how does it work for your 
reader? 

938
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:50,680
And you have to just do it 
quick. 

939
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,520
And so it became very obvious to
me that if I could get really 

940
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,760
good at this, I could have a 
really long lasting career. 

941
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,640
Because it's not just the 
creative ideas which are 

942
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,960
important, but the creative 
ideas really, you can create an 

943
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,960
idea that works in print, that 
also works in digital, that also

944
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,480
works in social or that works in
an app, But they, they're really

945
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,360
just nuances of each other in 
some way. 

946
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,440
The stakes are always changing 
in the world of marketing. 

947
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,920
Everything is a new thing, a 
different thing, a shiny thing 

948
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,760
like the next thing. 
And that's the piece that you 

949
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,640
had to really pay attention to. 
Like, how's the world changing? 

950
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,680
Like what do they want now? 
What, what's a new, new thing? 

951
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,200
These these big companies want a
first to market moment. 

952
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,720
They don't want a recycled idea.
Yeah, that you did with somebody

953
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:44,640
last month. 
They want something new and 

954
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,200
fresh. 
And so you're just constantly 

955
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,360
creating. 
I knew that if I could get good 

956
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,880
at that, that it would have a 
long lasting career. 

957
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,160
Yeah, I love that. 
I love that because I can tell 

958
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,000
that this role, it uses so many 
different parts of your brain. 

959
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,520
It's like, obviously like very 
creative, but then you're also a

960
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,280
connector between your 
readership, the audience and 

961
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,640
these massive brands and trying 
to like, bridge that connection.

962
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,160
Like what do they want and how 
can I best serve them in that 

963
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,480
way? 
Yeah, you almost have to be as 

964
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,440
much of an expert about your 
reader as you are about your 

965
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,280
partner or potential partner 
sitting across the table from 

966
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,720
you. 
You have to know what they want 

967
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:31,440
for their customer and how that 
can be as important to your 

968
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,760
reader as it is for them to 
achieve for their customer. 

969
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,360
That's like the magical moment 
that happens when you can do 

970
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,240
that and you can hit that. 
Like, I mean, there's there's 

971
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:44,280
like 3 or 4 moments of my career
where I was like, I nailed it. 

972
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:49,800
And I mean, yeah, where you were
like, wow, that was like really 

973
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,040
good. 
Yeah. 

974
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,360
So, you know, when that happens,
it gets like you sort of get 

975
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,520
addicted to that feeling. 
And I and I really did get 

976
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,840
addicted to that. 
That was the thing that I just 

977
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,680
wanted to do for as long as I 
could possibly do it. 

978
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,480
I love that. 
And you also met Holly at Cosmo.

979
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,880
Is that where your guys's story 
started? 

980
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,800
And then for context, that is 
our mutual friend who introduced

981
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,320
us to Leah. 
Yes. 

982
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:19,840
And so Holly came into my life, 
I think maybe it was 2000 and 12

983
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,320
or 13. 
Joanna Coles was the editor in 

984
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,040
chief of Cosmo at the time. 
She had tapped Holly, who I 

985
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,320
mean, Holly has an incredible 
career. 

986
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,880
She was in movies. 
She did so many things. 

987
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,880
And at the time, I think she was
in the corporate side of Hearst.

988
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,280
And Joanna tapped her to be 
really her chief of staff and 

989
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,080
also head up all of the comms 
for the brand. 

990
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:47,960
And at the time, the brand was 
changing so much because Joanna 

991
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,440
just had a totally different 
point of view that she wanted 

992
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:56,200
just with a megaphone out to the
ad community, out to the media 

993
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,960
market. 
And so Holly was tapped to do 

994
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,680
that. 
And we just really hit it off in

995
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,600
the very beginning. 
And now, I mean, we're, we are, 

996
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,760
we call each other twin because 
we're just like, we just feel 

997
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,160
like we're sisters in a lot of 
ways. 

998
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,040
And that's the, I think a really
special thing that happens over 

999
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,080
time when you work with women, 
especially as like you become, 

1000
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,600
you sort of transcend just as 
work partners and you become 

1001
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,480
like life partners in a lot of 
ways. 

1002
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,640
We kind of want to dig into that
a little bit more. 

1003
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:28,960
We shout out to Holly. 
Thank you so much for 

1004
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,600
introducing us to Leah. 
But I mean, you've said 

1005
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:37,040
previously, like work wives can 
solve, like World Peace, create 

1006
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,960
World Peace. 
Say that all the time. 

1007
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,360
It's true. 
I mean, work wives and the power

1008
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,560
of female friendship is like so 
important for our career. 

1009
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,200
If you can find a work wife and 
also just like as career blends 

1010
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,480
into life, like can you talk a 
little bit more about just like 

1011
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,800
the importance of having a work 
wife? 

1012
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,040
Yeah. 
I mean, I think first of all, 

1013
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,960
these are people that men or 
women, you're spending the bulk 

1014
00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:02,760
of your day, the bulk of your 
life with your work family. 

1015
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:10,920
Some families are super 
dysfunctional and making those 

1016
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,280
relationships at work even more 
important because at that point 

1017
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,200
then they turn into like your 
survival mechanism, right? 

1018
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,560
Like when you're working at a 
place that is, I mean, every 

1019
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,040
place has tough times. 
And but when you're working at a

1020
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,160
place that overtime becomes a 
little more tricky to manage, 

1021
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,680
where it's sort of infringing on
your life in some way, where 

1022
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,800
it's harder to create a 
boundary, whatever your mental 

1023
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,520
health like that is where you 
need, I think women in 

1024
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,880
particular, to confide in, to be
able to cry with, to be able to 

1025
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,240
just vent and be real with. 
Because if you're not able to 

1026
00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:51,800
have that outlet, how do you 
sort of get through those 

1027
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,240
moments together? 
It's harder. 

1028
00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:56,960
I mean, it's I think it was for 
a long time, people just 

1029
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,080
expected that you like stiff 
upper lifted. 

1030
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,640
You were like, you know, I can 
that is not good for any of us. 

1031
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,000
And I think having those people 
that you can be real with who 

1032
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,680
you can trust with. 
I'm feeling this way right now. 

1033
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,960
I'm so frustrated by, you know, 
my boss or whatever. 

1034
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:19,320
It can help you just like flow 
into the next stage of less 

1035
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,280
frustration instead of just 
holding it in and being like 

1036
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,040
resentful and then just being 
like, oh, I can't work here 

1037
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,080
anymore, right? 
Like it's never, it's usually 

1038
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,200
not ever resolved by like 
jumping the ship and going 

1039
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,280
somewhere else. 
Like you're going to find the 

1040
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,400
same frustrations. 
And. 

1041
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,240
Is that? 
I relate to this set a nerve so 

1042
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:44,560
strongly because okay, I've had 
the privilege of having I think 

1043
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,880
like 2 work wives in my life and
the first one, one of my best 

1044
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,400
friends still to this day, Maya.
We worked together at Zynga and 

1045
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,960
there were times when both of us
were like, I'm about to rage 

1046
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,080
quit right this second. 
Yes, and we would, the two of us

1047
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,160
would go on a walk together and 
like the sole purpose of the 

1048
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,640
walk was to vent to each other 
and then give each other like a 

1049
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,280
3 minute long hug and it was 
like. 

1050
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:08,840
That. 
That's so sweet Yeah. 

1051
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,800
Like she and she gives the best 
hugs, you know what I mean? 

1052
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,400
Like just that kind of like 
connection and being able to 

1053
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,560
like share with your work wife 
what's going on. 

1054
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,600
They understand you like they 
have the. 

1055
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:19,520
Contest. 
Special. 

1056
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,520
Yeah, a level of empathy. 
Yeah, it's just because only 

1057
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,240
they know what you're feeling. 
My husband knows a lot about my 

1058
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:29,560
business, knows a lot about the 
people I work with. 

1059
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,960
But there are some weeks where 
and I work at a very mentally 

1060
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,560
sound company. 
Like it's not toxic, it's not 

1061
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,240
crazy. 
I mean, I sort of found finally 

1062
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:46,600
found a place that appeals to me
in that way and and is, is good 

1063
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,080
for my mental health in a lot of
ways. 

1064
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,120
But there are just weeks that 
are really, really hard. 

1065
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,760
And if I take that home to my 
husband, he gets it, but he 

1066
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,000
doesn't get it. 
Like my girls at work get it. 

1067
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:05,360
Like Holly with you, my friend 
Meredith, my friend Melissa, my 

1068
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,240
friend Joe. 
Like we are in it together now. 

1069
00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:12,240
We've also every single one of 
those people -1 we've worked, 

1070
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:13,880
we've worked together since 
Cosmo. 

1071
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,680
So we've all like moved together
and like now have this like 

1072
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,760
long, decades long relationship.
It it's amazing because you 

1073
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:25,760
already know what the other 
person is thinking. 

1074
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,040
You can like you speak 
shorthand. 

1075
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,200
I'm a short pit for the people 
around us who don't have that. 

1076
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:31,520
They're like, you guys are 
crazy. 

1077
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,160
Can you fill us in on what's 
going on? 

1078
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,560
But you do, there are advantages
to, to having those like very 

1079
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,880
long term friendships. 
And they really are like 

1080
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,640
therapists in your life that can
get you through moments and get 

1081
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,600
you to the other side. 
So that, you know, I joke 

1082
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,440
sometimes with my therapist 
like, Oh my God, I'm having one 

1083
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,440
of these weeks where I'm like, 
I'm going to hit the eject 

1084
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,760
button. 
That's it, right? 

1085
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,360
Like I just got to go. 
And she's like, you have like go

1086
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,520
take a walk with a friend. 
Go take a 3 minute hug. 

1087
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,280
Like those moments are actually 
really crucial. 

1088
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,520
And then the other thing that I 
think you can do with women that

1089
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,080
is a little harder to do with 
men, maybe impossible to do with

1090
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,400
most men, is that you can be 
grateful with your whole heart 

1091
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,520
to those women. 
Like, I can't tell you how many 

1092
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,760
times a week I'm texting or 
slacking or just in person being

1093
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,840
like, I love you so much. 
Like, thank you so much for 

1094
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,800
being in this with me. 
Like, you can't do that to a guy

1095
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:31,880
for the most part. 
And maybe some guys, but like, 

1096
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,520
not really. 
And so these are people who, 

1097
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:40,560
like, you can be fully open with
and fully grateful to which it's

1098
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,240
a different way of leading. 
It's a different way of walking 

1099
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:45,040
together. 
It's just a different way to 

1100
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:49,320
trust each other. 
And that isn't really important,

1101
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:50,440
I think. 
Yeah. 

1102
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,200
So well said. 
In some ways, it really 

1103
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,200
transcends just the career or 
like professional aspect to when

1104
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,960
you really trust someone that 
you've been working with for 

1105
00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:02,680
like a decade. 
It's just like we not only know 

1106
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:05,080
each other in the professional 
context, but you've been with me

1107
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,600
through a lot of personal 
milestones too. 

1108
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,400
Yes. 
And you can be truthful with 

1109
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,760
that person. 
I mean, they're think we're 

1110
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:13,800
going through a really big 
project right now. 

1111
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,080
And like I might disagree with 
the press plan or I might 

1112
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,040
disagree with the way the press 
release was written or like 

1113
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,440
whatever it is. 
And it's easier to just say, 

1114
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,800
like, I love you so much, but 
like, there's just this one 

1115
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:26,840
thing that I really think we 
have to just sit on for a 

1116
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:28,480
minute. 
It comes from a, it's a 

1117
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,040
different way of approaching it 
than someone being like, oh, 

1118
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:32,920
that's terrible. 
Like go change it. 

1119
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,200
And it doesn't make that person 
want to be on your team or like 

1120
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,560
get to a middle ground. 
And so there are huge 

1121
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,640
advantages, I think, to having 
the work life relationship. 

1122
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,840
And then even the people who 
aren't your, maybe your wife, 

1123
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,040
but like in it with you, they 
see that type of leadership, 

1124
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:50,920
they respect that type of 
leadership. 

1125
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,800
You trickle that down in some 
way and it just makes for a much

1126
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,760
more collaborative environment. 
Yeah, that's a great piece of 

1127
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,560
like wisdom. 
It's just different. 

1128
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,400
I mean, it's, it's a different, 
it just feels like it's a 

1129
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,120
different vibe now than it was 
even 10 years ago. 

1130
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,720
Like where sometimes women, I 
think in that time period they 

1131
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:12,920
had, they felt like they had to 
almost like be like men in a 

1132
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,320
way. 
Like they had to feel like be 

1133
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,880
tough. 
They had to, you know, put out 

1134
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,200
like a, I don't know if the 
aggression is the word, but it's

1135
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,360
like just some type of like like
alphanus. 

1136
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,400
And you can have that, but you 
can also have it in a nice way. 

1137
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,840
And I think it makes for a much 
better environment for your team

1138
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,080
and. 
More authentic environment too. 

1139
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,880
Your own leadership style. 
There's a different way of 

1140
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,600
there's a difference between 
being direct with feedback or 

1141
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,520
direct with a request or 
something than it is to be like 

1142
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:49,040
have an alphanus undertone to it
that feels like, I don't know, 

1143
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,200
just it's a there's a different 
energy now that I think people 

1144
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:53,600
expect or want. 
Yeah. 

1145
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:58,240
Another one of the things you 
said to us is that your life 

1146
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:03,000
motto is just say yes. 
So what is like one of the 

1147
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,120
things that you, you kind of 
like took that approach to and 

1148
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,240
you were like, I'm just going to
say yes. 

1149
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,320
And and then you did something 
that like kind of like changed 

1150
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,400
the course of your your life or 
your career. 

1151
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,680
Yeah. 
So I guess for better or worse, 

1152
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,440
just say yes, because when you 
say a lot of things, a lot of 

1153
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,680
opportunities can come your way,
but it's a lot maybe on the To 

1154
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,120
Do List sometimes. 
So I think two things. 

1155
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:32,480
One That advice came to me from 
an old boss who I decided to 

1156
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,800
take a break with my husband. 
We had been together for four 

1157
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,960
years. 
He was many years younger than 

1158
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:38,920
me. 
He still is. 

1159
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:43,920
It's not like he morphed into an
older person, but we were five 

1160
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,360
years apart and I had turned 30 
and I was like, where is this 

1161
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:48,560
going? 
Like I need? 

1162
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,160
And so sort of such a cliche 
moment to have a milestone like 

1163
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,480
that. 
And, and we broke up and my boss

1164
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,480
at the time was like, this is 
your moment. 

1165
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,040
Like just say yes to everything.
I think for her, it was more of 

1166
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,720
like a romantic thing, like say 
yes to every date, say yes to 

1167
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:07,000
every whatever. 
I just took it then to mean, you

1168
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,680
know, like, when you say yes to 
things, you don't know where 

1169
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:13,840
they're going to lead. 
I mean, going back to the 

1170
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,600
romantic piece of it, like, I 
met my husband at a Halloween 

1171
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,640
party where I wasn't even going 
to go. 

1172
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:23,640
And I said yes to my best friend
from college who took me to this

1173
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,200
party and semi knew my husband, 
and that's How I Met him. 

1174
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,200
So I look back on a moment like 
that thinking, well, I may never

1175
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,400
have met him if I didn't say yes
to that moment. 

1176
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,880
And I was not feeling 
particularly happy to go to this

1177
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,640
party. 
I was exhausted and tired, and I

1178
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:38,320
really just wanted to stay home 
in pyjamas. 

1179
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:43,160
But I said yeah, yes, right. 
So there is something that 

1180
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,280
happens sometimes where you like
meet somebody random that can 

1181
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,040
potentially change your future 
in some way. 

1182
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,320
But you don't actually get to 
experience that if you're not 

1183
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:55,840
putting yourself out there in 
some way. 

1184
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,000
Now, sometimes you you can't say
yes to everything and you have 

1185
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,960
to be choosy. 
But there is a habit that 

1186
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,640
sometimes can happen where 
you're saying no so much that 

1187
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,360
you're not going anywhere and 
you're not meeting new people. 

1188
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,160
And you're that's where that 
creativity comes into play. 

1189
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,320
That's where the serendipitous 
moments have been. 

1190
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,640
And if you don't have them or 
put yourself out there to say 

1191
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,160
yes to, then you don't have the 
ability to make that like 

1192
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,760
magical moment happen. 
And there have been multiple 

1193
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,560
moments in my life that were 
changed with that like 

1194
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,360
serendipitous energy, just like 
saying yes from the first time 

1195
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,800
that I put my resume in for my 
first job where like I had no 

1196
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,280
business getting that job on 
paper, but I just like said yes 

1197
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,560
and through put into a folder 
that went to somebody who ended 

1198
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:46,720
up hiring me meeting my husband 
like 1. 

1199
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:51,280
The probably the most impactful 
Say Yes moment was when I got to

1200
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,680
my current company, I had gone 
there to start the beauty and 

1201
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,320
style vertical because they had 
no beauty or style brands. 

1202
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,280
They had bought birdie, they had
bought brides, and they needed 

1203
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:02,960
somebody to run it. 
I went there great. 

1204
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,400
Like I was learning digital 
media for the first time. 

1205
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,200
I was bringing something to them
that they didn't actually have, 

1206
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,040
which was magazine chops and 
sort of media chops. 

1207
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:14,000
Yeah. 
And then I did that for three 

1208
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,600
years. 
And then one day my boss pulled 

1209
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,040
me in his office and he said, 
you know, we bought this. 

1210
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,000
We, they, we acquired Meredith 
Corp, which had all of these 

1211
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,520
like incredible brands, people 
EW in style, better homes and 

1212
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,840
gardens, food and wine, real 
simple. 

1213
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:30,840
And he was like, we want you to 
run the Entertainment Group. 

1214
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,400
And I was like, no. 
And he's like, why? 

1215
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,000
I'm like, because I love beauty.
I love style. 

1216
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:38,840
Like this is what I've done my 
whole life. 

1217
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:40,360
Like I, I don't want to leave 
this. 

1218
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,920
He's like just sleep on it. 
And I did. 

1219
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,760
And I woke up the next day. 
Like what am I thinking? 

1220
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,720
Like my whole mantra is like, 
say yes, like what? 

1221
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,360
Why would I not do this? 
And I did do it. 

1222
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:54,480
And it changed my whole life. 
Learning a whole new business, 

1223
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,880
learning how the two business 
businesses can intersect. 

1224
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:02,240
I eventually brought the two 
groups together, but I would 

1225
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,200
never have had this incredibly 
rich experience of running 

1226
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,720
people in EW and people in 
Espanol without. 

1227
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,160
Just saying I'm going to try it.
And you know what, if I don't 

1228
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,240
succeed, I'll go back to beauty 
or like whatever will happen 

1229
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,560
from it. 
But if I could succeed, how 

1230
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,440
amazing could it be to learn all
these new things? 

1231
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:25,520
And so that is trying really 
hard to just really be brave 

1232
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:26,920
trying. 
It's. 

1233
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,000
So scary getting out of the 
comfort zone. 

1234
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,880
I mean, I had done beauty for 20
some years and I never, I mean, 

1235
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,040
I obviously beauty intersects 
with the entertainment world in 

1236
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,160
a lot of ways and the 
celebrities, but that's a whole 

1237
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,680
other animal on its own. 
And to sort of learn that from 

1238
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,320
the ground up and make new 
relationships there, understand 

1239
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,040
that business, it was really 
hard. 

1240
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,880
It's the best decision I ever 
made. 

1241
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,880
And obviously I, I credit that 
to my boss. 

1242
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:59,280
Even being able to see that I 
could possibly do that. 

1243
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,560
I don't know if I would have 
raised my hand. 

1244
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:03,160
I know I wouldn't have raised my
hand for it. 

1245
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,360
So sometimes, you know, somebody
sees something else for you. 

1246
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,800
And when that happens, I think 
you really have to trust it. 

1247
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,360
Like if somebody is seeing 
something in me that I'm not 

1248
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,680
seeing in myself, I've got to 
try it, right? 

1249
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,880
Like I have to at least deserves
a moment of just to try. 

1250
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:26,280
Yeah, I mean, this is super 
inspiring for for me, for us, 

1251
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,560
because I feel like we are at 
the moment now where you were 

1252
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,800
when the your boss was like, why
don't you take on entertainment?

1253
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,840
Because like for the two of us 
doing this whole startup, the 

1254
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,960
whole podcast journey, sisters 
Matcha, like everything is to us

1255
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:41,560
because we come from the tech 
world. 

1256
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,560
Like we've never like ever built
something that you can hold in 

1257
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:46,640
your hand that's not in an app 
on a screen green. 

1258
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,880
Like we've never been in front 
of cameras like this before. 

1259
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,000
So I don't know, that's really 
inspiring to see like where you 

1260
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,920
are today versus like where you 
started from being like a total 

1261
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,160
newbie and taking on an entirely
new industry. 

1262
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,480
Totally. 
And I don't know, I mean, 

1263
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,760
there's there's something about 
creating something from the 

1264
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:07,080
ground up. 
I mean, look at this thing. 

1265
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,760
This came from your brain, 
right? 

1266
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:10,840
Like. 
And our hearts and. 

1267
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,440
Now you can consume it, you 
know, and you can touch it and 

1268
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:18,000
see it and read it. 
And it's unbelievable what 

1269
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,680
happens when you have something 
in your brain. 

1270
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,480
I mean, sometimes, I mean, I 
know that the best ideas I've 

1271
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,720
ever had, the things I look back
on and I remember like I'm so 

1272
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:31,600
proud of that came from, I 
always say it came from either 

1273
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,240
one or two places. 
One I was in the shower washing 

1274
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:35,320
my hair. 
Shower thongs. 

1275
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:37,280
There's that. 
If there's something so 

1276
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,600
beautiful about showers, like I 
don't know what. 

1277
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,320
She's passionate about showers. 
I talk about this all the time. 

1278
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,000
It's like the water. 
It's the folk. 

1279
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,400
Like I don't even. 
It has to be a scientist, yeah. 

1280
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,360
So it needs to. 
Do a study. 

1281
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,960
Yes, because there is something 
it's either happened in the 

1282
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,480
shower or it happens either the 
moment like the 10 minutes 

1283
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,640
before falling asleep or the 10 
minutes where I'm like kind of 

1284
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:04,000
waking up and just sort of 
thinking maybe it's because 

1285
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:08,040
those are places where or 
moments where you don't have 

1286
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,680
this in becoming inputs all the 
time. 

1287
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:13,560
You're you're separated. 
You're sort of. 

1288
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,080
You're kind of like in limbo or 
like your brain is, it's like 

1289
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,360
things are working in the 
background and you're not like 

1290
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,360
using probably like, I don't 
know, the creative aspect of 

1291
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:25,440
your brain just yet. 
You're like just waking up or 

1292
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,480
falling asleep. 
But don't you wonder how many 

1293
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:32,880
people in the world have a 
genius idea in that moment and 

1294
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,600
they don't do anything about it?
And what did you guys do? 

1295
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,280
You had this idea. 
You went through all the steps 

1296
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,760
to like make this a thing and 
then now you have this thing. 

1297
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,240
So now you're like, we did it 
once, like what's next? 

1298
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:50,600
Like you right. 
If you do it once, you at least 

1299
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,360
have a playbook of sorts that 
can will be tweaked a million 

1300
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,200
different ways, but you have 
almost, you have the confidence 

1301
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,840
that like you went through it 
start to finish and that's the 

1302
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,960
secret to it all. 
It's like you got to just try it

1303
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:07,520
and you have to figure out your 
own playbook and then you'll 

1304
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:09,720
have something to work off of in
the future. 

1305
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,960
Your story before like, I feel 
like so many elements resonate 

1306
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,280
with me. 
I think firstly, like having 

1307
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,160
someone in your corner who like 
really deeply believes in you 

1308
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,760
and like sees the potential 
before you can even like see it 

1309
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,160
or feel it in yourself is really
important. 

1310
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:29,120
And then also like that paired 
with kind of the mindset you 

1311
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,960
were talking about, like instead
of saying like, what's what's 

1312
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,080
the worst that can happen? 
It's like what's the best that 

1313
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,560
can happen? 
Even if I fail or you know, it 

1314
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,760
doesn't go my way, like 
something good will come out of 

1315
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,960
it. 
Like I think the mindset is also

1316
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:43,720
super important. 
Yeah. 

1317
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:48,160
And there's also a little bit of
beauty in being naive. 

1318
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:52,520
Like, I don't think I had any 
idea what it was going to take 

1319
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,360
to go through those moments that
I went through that I had to 

1320
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,840
learn from the ground up or 
build from the ground up. 

1321
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:01,440
And there was a couple of those 
moments. 

1322
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:04,920
I mean, my biggest one was when 
I switched from print media to 

1323
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,320
digital media. 
I mean, I felt as though I went 

1324
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:12,240
through some level of post grad 
work on the job because there's 

1325
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,360
moments where people are like 
saying these words, you have no 

1326
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,920
idea what they mean. 
And I'm sending myself emails to

1327
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,240
be like, Google this later, like
research this later. 

1328
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:22,800
I have no idea what this thing 
is. 

1329
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,000
And so you're sort of teaching 
yourself in the moment and 

1330
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:30,080
you're relying on people to not 
think you're totally stupid and 

1331
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,360
you know, a, a hire that 
shouldn't have been made. 

1332
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:35,520
You trust them, you like learn 
from them. 

1333
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,920
And I did have that opportunity.
I don't know if I would have had

1334
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:39,520
that opportunity at any other 
company. 

1335
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:43,280
There was just something special
about the leadership at the 

1336
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:44,960
time. 
I mean, it still is the same 

1337
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,000
leadership, but the size of the 
company, the kind of like 

1338
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:52,080
familialness that was there that
really helped me succeed in that

1339
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,720
area. 
And then other moments where 

1340
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:59,240
you're just a little naive and 
you have to rely on everybody 

1341
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,160
around you to get you through 
it. 

1342
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,560
We are building an app right now
and we're about to launch it. 

1343
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:08,000
And I knew nothing about apps. 
A lot of us didn't at the 

1344
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,640
company, but we just figured it 
out. 

1345
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:15,400
And you, you can really figure 
it out if you have some really 

1346
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,720
smart people in the room and 
that you can sort of give up 

1347
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:22,680
control to spread that, spread 
that empowerment around. 

1348
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:26,720
And you're all kind of doing the
thing that you're best at and 

1349
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:28,960
you work the kinks out in the in
the in the moment. 

1350
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,480
Yeah. 
I mean, it is such a blessing to

1351
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,400
like, be in a really healthy 
workplace where you not only 

1352
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,480
trust the people on a personal, 
like, deep personal level, but 

1353
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,080
like, you can, like you said, 
shorthand with them. 

1354
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,200
And I feel really lucky to be 
working with Gene now because 

1355
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:48,040
there's like so many obviously 
29 years of trust for me. 

1356
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:53,280
Yeah, With Gene, the place where
I want to go next is kind of the

1357
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:57,280
opposite of that in terms of 
like workplace politics. 

1358
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,040
Could you talk a little bit more
about like how to navigate 

1359
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,560
workplace politics, maybe if 
it's something that people are 

1360
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,680
not super familiar with, Like do
you have any tips for that? 

1361
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:09,160
It's a tough one, war. 
Stories. 

1362
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:12,440
So many war stories. 
So many, I mean which? 

1363
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,040
One to talk about, actually, 
that's like. 

1364
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,480
Some of them, some of it is when
you are just starting out, 

1365
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,600
you're developing a thick skin 
in the course of the first few 

1366
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:26,600
years. 
And that is hard like when 

1367
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:28,800
you're raw. 
I mean, sometimes I wish I could

1368
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:32,600
go back to the 22 year old Leah 
who had like, you know, who 

1369
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:36,760
didn't have like this much more 
skin than she has now and, and 

1370
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:41,200
remember what that was like. 
Because the vulnerability and 

1371
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:45,600
sort of the, the rawness of 
being in something new without, 

1372
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:48,960
I mean, the publishing industry,
particularly when I entered, it 

1373
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:54,120
was cutthroat. 
Like it was just something I had

1374
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:58,440
never experienced before. 
And that level of just, OK, this

1375
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,520
person looked at me weird. 
Now I'm going down a spiral like

1376
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,800
my boss yelled at me like, and 
you're just, you just go through

1377
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:07,720
that for so many years and 
you're like, OK, now, like on to

1378
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,240
the next thing. 
Then as you start to become 

1379
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:14,440
middle management, start to 
become more moving upward, you 

1380
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:18,319
are in a position where you're 
policing a lot of what's coming 

1381
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:22,520
down to you from your team, and 
you're policing a lot of what's 

1382
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:25,080
coming up to you from the people
above you. 

1383
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:29,560
And you are holding this load in
a lot of ways that it's really 

1384
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:32,359
hard because you have to please 
both sides. 

1385
01:08:32,359 --> 01:08:34,760
It's like the Jelly and the 
sandwich, and you have to try to

1386
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,640
please both sides. 
That's workplace politics like 

1387
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,200
at that's the start of it, I 
think. 

1388
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:47,439
And when do you side with your 
team versus your boss and how do

1389
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:49,960
you influence one or the other 
or both? 

1390
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:54,880
And though that is like the 
learning how to lead with 

1391
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:59,279
influence versus force, that is 
a massive thing that I had to 

1392
01:08:59,279 --> 01:09:03,120
learn in a lot of hard ways. 
Sometimes it's not fair. 

1393
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,240
Like there are things that 
you're being asked to do as a 

1394
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,439
middle manager from your boss 
and you think they're going to 

1395
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:12,120
protect you. 
You think they're going to be 

1396
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:14,680
there forever. 
And one day you wake up and 

1397
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:19,720
they're not, and you've just had
to do a lot of dirty work for a 

1398
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:23,000
long period of time and now 
they're gone and you're like, 

1399
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:25,160
who's going to take care of me 
now, right? 

1400
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:29,840
It's very scary. 
And, and there was a moment that

1401
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,920
I went through that in at my job
at Cosmo. 

1402
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:36,680
And, you know, I was left in a 
different world. 

1403
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:39,840
It was left in it with new 
leadership that I didn't know I 

1404
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,880
didn't really have a 
relationship with 24 hours 

1405
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:47,520
before that. 
I had a Direct Line to the chief

1406
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,000
content officer, right? 
Like, and that is like, that 

1407
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,439
rocks your world. 
Like that is like really, really

1408
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,760
scary. 
It turned out that it was just 

1409
01:09:54,760 --> 01:10:00,640
not the place for me anymore 
because I didn't necessarily 

1410
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:02,920
believe in the in the direction 
the company was moving in. 

1411
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,040
And it was just time for me to 
find something new. 

1412
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:09,520
And, and I am so grateful that I
was given this, this opportunity

1413
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:14,400
at my current company in that 
moment, if I had to tough it out

1414
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,480
for, you know, another like year
or two, I probably could have 

1415
01:10:17,480 --> 01:10:21,520
just because I have, I had the 
thick skin and I could probably 

1416
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,120
figure out how to make it work 
in some way. 

1417
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:26,560
But I, I definitely wouldn't 
have been happy. 

1418
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:30,320
And there, there is a moment 
that happened for me and it 

1419
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:33,720
probably was when I had kids 
where I was just like, I do have

1420
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:39,200
to feel like there's something 
else here for me aside from just

1421
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:43,360
the paycheck. 
I have to feel like I'm being 

1422
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:47,880
respected, that I'm continuing 
to learn everyday, that I feel 

1423
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,280
like there's a path, a future 
path for me. 

1424
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:53,840
I just, there's something else 
that I have that I have to 

1425
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,600
prioritize other than the money.
Because if I'm going to leave my

1426
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:01,680
kids for 9 hours a day, I have 
to feel fulfilled. 

1427
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:03,640
Doesn't mean that every day is 
going to be perfect. 

1428
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:05,440
It doesn't mean that there's not
going to be really, really hard,

1429
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:07,840
hard time so that you're going 
to work your butt off and be 

1430
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:12,520
exhausted and you know, feel 
like, what am I can I keep going

1431
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,920
like this? 
But you have to feel like you're

1432
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:21,320
respected and when you if that's
important to you and when that 

1433
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:25,640
stops, you got to go. 
Some advice that you've also 

1434
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:29,080
given us in the past is like 
don't let anyone weaponize you 

1435
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,280
and take the emotion out of it. 
Yeah. 

1436
01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:36,800
I, I feel like that's related to
this entire conversation. 

1437
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,800
Could you describe a little bit 
more about what you mean by that

1438
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,880
and how you you learn that in in
your career? 

1439
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:47,800
That's really hard. 
I I am a very emotion. 

1440
01:11:48,480 --> 01:11:52,440
I'm an emotional person. 
I feel a lot of things. 

1441
01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:54,120
I know. 
Especially when you care about 

1442
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,400
what you work on. 
Yes, yeah. 

1443
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:59,920
It's so intertwined. 
I have never been somebody who 

1444
01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:06,680
has I I'm not a stoic leader. 
I am. 

1445
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:11,120
I feel energy really, really 
strongly, good or bad. 

1446
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:17,160
Like in a room, I am like, I'm 
almost sometimes paralyzed by 

1447
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,800
the energy that I pick up in the
room, which allows you the 

1448
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,000
capability to read and respond 
very quickly. 

1449
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:28,920
You can't go in with a script. 
You have to go in with a loose 

1450
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,880
outline and read what's going on
and then move to the next thing 

1451
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,240
or respond in some way so that 
you're keeping the thing going 

1452
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:39,640
versus like being so stiff that 
you can't. 

1453
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,520
So anyway, that's just I'm 
saying that the emotional 

1454
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:48,160
element and the energy reading 
that I have is a blessing and a 

1455
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:51,360
curse. 
And the curse is that it's 

1456
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:55,680
really hard to take the emotion 
out. 

1457
01:12:56,120 --> 01:13:00,920
And I'm telling you, I've been 
working for since the year 2000,

1458
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:05,560
So what, 25 years? 
I still to this day have to 

1459
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:09,040
practice that. 
I still to this day have to 

1460
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:13,960
remember that when my CEO 
doesn't like something that I 

1461
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:18,000
do, it's not that he doesn't 
like me, it's that he doesn't 

1462
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,240
like what's being presented to 
him on paper. 

1463
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:25,640
It's when my boss is giving me 
feedback and saying, you know, 

1464
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:27,960
if I were you, I might have done
this a little differently. 

1465
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:32,080
It's not that he thinks that I 
suck at my job, it's that he's 

1466
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:33,720
trying to actually make me 
better. 

1467
01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:38,000
And then of course, like you 
come up against really 

1468
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:44,080
challenging people that if it's 
sporadic and you have to just 

1469
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:46,760
deal with it every every couple 
of weeks or every couple of 

1470
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,440
months, you got to like steal 
yourself to get through it and 

1471
01:13:49,440 --> 01:13:52,960
you push through it and it's 
over, OK, I can handle that. 

1472
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:57,040
If I have to be in that energy 
all the time, I might not be OK 

1473
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:59,520
with it. 
And so you have to figure out 

1474
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:03,360
how to, like, box up the energy 
sometimes for a moment and like,

1475
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:05,000
put it on a shelf. 
Departmentalize. 

1476
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,160
Departmentalize it. 
And I have to constantly remind 

1477
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:14,520
myself that the the feedback 
that I'm getting, maybe it could

1478
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:16,520
have been delivered in a better 
way. 

1479
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:21,400
Maybe it didn't necessarily need
to be communicated in the way 

1480
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:24,120
that it was communicated. 
But what's the core of it? 

1481
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:27,920
OK, the core of it is something 
that I can fix and I'll fix it 

1482
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,480
and we'll move on. 
It's not as though it's a, it's 

1483
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:35,400
a crystal ball saying, Oh my 
God, I don't belong here 

1484
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,520
anymore, you know, so there's a 
little that it's just hard to 

1485
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,080
manage it if you're, if you are 
a sensitive person. 

1486
01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:44,720
And I do think I'm, I don't, 
it's not that I'm sensitive to 

1487
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:46,680
the point where like someone 
gives me feedback and I'm crying

1488
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:48,040
in their office. 
It's not that. 

1489
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:51,480
It's just a sensitivity that you
have that you get in your head 

1490
01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:54,120
for a minute and you have to 
figure out how to get out of it.

1491
01:14:54,360 --> 01:15:04,400
Now, I will say that prior to 
2000 and one, I didn't think I 

1492
01:15:04,480 --> 01:15:08,360
like needed a therapist. 
I didn't think that like had to 

1493
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:10,800
have somebody to kind of vent to
like once a week. 

1494
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:12,920
It's changed my life to have 
that. 

1495
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,160
I love therapy. 
We just did a podcast episode 

1496
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:17,640
talking about mental health and 
therapy. 

1497
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,680
And our like their our journey 
with therapy. 

1498
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,640
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, everyone has maybe a 

1499
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,680
core reason that brought them to
therapy. 

1500
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:26,360
But then what happens in the 
first six months? 

1501
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:30,680
You start to like the onion kind
of like on delayers. 

1502
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,080
What? 
Unwind like everything, just the

1503
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:34,840
onion. 
Comes apart and you're like, oh,

1504
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:36,600
right, that's why I feel that 
way. 

1505
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:39,920
Like that's why when I maybe get
somebody speaks to me in a 

1506
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:44,520
certain way, I'm like, like the 
the cortisol rush comes and I'm 

1507
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:46,400
freaking out. 
Right, the three of us are 

1508
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:47,840
exactly. 
The same I'm like. 

1509
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,000
What did they say that in like a
weird tone? 

1510
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:51,760
Am I overthinking it? 
I was just like do they? 

1511
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:53,520
Did I do something wrong? 
Like I'm just like. 

1512
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:58,800
It's not talked about enough. 
Yeah, the the impact that tone 

1513
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:05,280
energy has on on you no matter 
what stage of your career you're

1514
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:07,840
in, no matter how long you've 
been in the workplace day one 

1515
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:14,560
day 100,000 and one you there it
just if that's who you are and 

1516
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,040
there has been a you know, you 
were raised in a certain 

1517
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:19,960
household. 
You had a terrible traumatic 

1518
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:23,160
experience with a teacher or an 
old boss or whatever it was like

1519
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:27,320
this stuff sticks with you. 
I mean, I have moments where I 

1520
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:31,760
have traced back to like a group
of friends from the 8th grade 

1521
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:34,160
who like, didn't want to be 
friends with me anymore, right? 

1522
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,520
Like, and you're like, wow, this
is not just me being a sensitive

1523
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,160
girl at the age of 13, having to
get over something. 

1524
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:42,720
This is something that roots in 
you that you have to deal with. 

1525
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:46,720
And it erupts in the workplace 
in weird ways. 

1526
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,560
It's not like it's just in the 
past. 

1527
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:51,920
It's in you. 
Like your first 18 years of your

1528
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,320
life are so impressionable and 
these moments that you don't 

1529
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:58,400
think are important, like they 
stay with you forever. 

1530
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,000
And so that's why I think 
therapy is so important because 

1531
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:04,240
you can pinpoint it and then you
have control over it versus 

1532
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:08,520
getting this rush of discomfort 
and anxiety and all of this 

1533
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:09,680
stuff. 
And you're like, why am I 

1534
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:11,680
feeling this way? 
Which makes you panic more. 

1535
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:14,720
At least if you know you're 
like, OK, I know this is like 

1536
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:18,200
coming from like my like weird 
trauma from like somewhere. 

1537
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:20,240
And I know how I can get through
it. 

1538
01:17:20,440 --> 01:17:21,840
I know it's not going to last 
forever. 

1539
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:24,600
I know what I what I have to do.
It's a toolkit. 

1540
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,720
You have a toolkit, you can name
it, you can place it. 

1541
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:30,520
And I think in addition just to 
just being like sensitive 

1542
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:36,280
people, like what we do for work
is just so creative and so part 

1543
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,760
of like who we are that like 
it's really hard to separate. 

1544
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,800
I mean, we're putting ourselves 
out there like we're like 

1545
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,960
revealing ourselves and being 
extremely vulnerable with like 

1546
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:48,120
every. 
Aspect of our lives. 

1547
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:51,520
Totally. 
I this is this is the first time

1548
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:56,360
at my current workplace where 
I've ever had a male boss or 

1549
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:58,360
male bosses because I feel like 
I have three of them. 

1550
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:05,800
And in a lot of ways, it's 
incredibly amazing to have a 

1551
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:10,520
different type of management, 
men and women, I'm sorry, they 

1552
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:13,680
just like managed differently. 
They, they show up differently. 

1553
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:17,640
And so I have actually thrived 
in the last five years with 

1554
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:19,960
that. 
Not because I didn't thrive, I 

1555
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,040
have, I've had incredible 
moments with incredible bosses 

1556
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,720
and leaders who were females, 
but it's, it just feels 

1557
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:29,560
different the way that a man 
delivers, particularly men who 

1558
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:33,360
have careers in finance versus 
careers in creative. 

1559
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:38,400
It's just different and you 
learn really quickly that you're

1560
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:43,520
going to have to separate that 
thing. 

1561
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,520
You know, you're not getting the
flowery feedback, you're getting

1562
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,240
the direct feedback. 
Now that comes. 

1563
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:53,320
That has come from women too in 
the past, like many of my ex 

1564
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:58,520
bosses have been maybe even 
harder delivery than the the 

1565
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,080
people that I work with now. 
But it is different. 

1566
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,360
And some of it's good and some 
of it's bad. 

1567
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:06,440
And I think sometimes there is a
there's a level of like, OK, 

1568
01:19:06,440 --> 01:19:09,920
well, there's just a way that a 
man does things and I'm not 

1569
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,520
going to take it personally. 
I don't know there. 

1570
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:16,320
I've I've, I've felt that it was
good for me in a lot of ways to 

1571
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:19,840
have this experience. 
And also I just want to say 

1572
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:24,280
thank you for sharing this part 
of yourself because it is very, 

1573
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,560
I guess, like heartening for us 
because like I also view myself 

1574
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:32,360
as a very emotional person. 
And to like see you and at the 

1575
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:36,720
level of success and all like 
your achievements in your career

1576
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,880
and having done that and being 
like, I am an emotional person, 

1577
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:41,320
like this is how I walk through 
life. 

1578
01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:43,280
And this is how I show up in my 
career as well. 

1579
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:46,440
And it's just really it's like, 
great to see you where you are 

1580
01:19:46,440 --> 01:19:50,160
and be like, OK, it is possible 
for us to do. 

1581
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,080
So the other side of that goes 
back to the work life. 

1582
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:55,360
Thank you for saying that. 
But like there are other sides 

1583
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:58,320
of that. 
So there's in the last few 

1584
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:02,960
weeks, I've had a lot of 
difficult moments in this 

1585
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:04,480
launch. 
We've we've talked about this 

1586
01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:06,280
app launch. 
It's been really, really hard. 

1587
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:08,880
Like there's been things that 
I've never done before. 

1588
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:12,560
There's that's it, that's 
vulnerability at its core form. 

1589
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,520
When you're like a going through
something that you're just 

1590
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:18,960
trying to learn and figure out 
and you're now down to the 

1591
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:22,560
crunch time, you're like T -, 2 
weeks and now you're getting 

1592
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:24,520
this feedback that's coming 
because. 

1593
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:27,040
People are singing for the first
time. 

1594
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:30,560
They have feelings about the way
the marketing language is or the

1595
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:32,480
press release or like whatever 
it is. 

1596
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:36,200
And there are things that are 
delivered in ways that are 

1597
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:39,560
really, really hard. 
And you have to, in that moment,

1598
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:44,680
absorb it, try really hard to 
just be completely unemotional, 

1599
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:49,520
figure out how you're going to 
fix it and fix it, right. 

1600
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:53,160
So that's this side of it. 
The other, the underbelly of it 

1601
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:56,680
is that you go to your work 
wives, you go to your husband, 

1602
01:20:56,680 --> 01:21:00,040
you go to your friends. 
Right now you're serious raging,

1603
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:01,080
right? 
And you're like. 

1604
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:02,800
I got that lace and he talked to
me that way. 

1605
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:07,280
Or whatever it is. 
And but you need both sides like

1606
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,800
you need to, you need to know 
that if you have the underbelly 

1607
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,760
there that like you can be real 
with and raw with and you can 

1608
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:17,080
like get it all out. 
You have your therapist, you 

1609
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:21,280
have whoever it is that can see 
all the feelings. 

1610
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:25,440
That's how you can show up 
unemotionally in a room and get 

1611
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:26,440
it done. 
Yeah. 

1612
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:27,560
And just. 
Execute. 

1613
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:32,080
That's just good advice. 
OK, I know if somebody is giving

1614
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:34,880
me feedback that I don't love or
giving it to me in a way that I 

1615
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:39,720
don't love, I know that I can 
talk to whoever I want about 

1616
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:42,440
that. 
But in this room, it stays out. 

1617
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:46,920
I am here to stone face. 
Walk in. 

1618
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:53,320
Take it in, buckle up, walk out 
that door, go for my rage walk, 

1619
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,800
whatever it is. 
I love a rage walk. 

1620
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:01,480
And then, you know, there's like
muscle memory that shows me that

1621
01:22:01,480 --> 01:22:04,840
I've been through this kind of 
pattern a million times in my 

1622
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:06,680
career. 
I know I'll see through the 

1623
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:08,320
other side. 
I know I'll find the answer. 

1624
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:10,200
I know I'll get to it. 
It's just going to be like a 

1625
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:12,080
pain in the butt because I 
didn't really plan on having to 

1626
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,760
redo it, right? 
Like whatever it is you got to 

1627
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:17,840
have like the. 
Both sides of it. 

1628
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:19,760
It's such good advice. 
Well, I love it because it's 

1629
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:21,720
super tactical. 
It's like this is how you show 

1630
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,840
up in the room, and this is how 
you can show up outside of the 

1631
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:26,240
room. 
And both are very authentic to 

1632
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:29,000
who you are based off of the 
context and like what you need 

1633
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:30,360
to do. 
I love that. 

1634
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:33,600
You mentioned, Lee, you 
mentioned your husband a couple 

1635
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:36,960
times. 
One of the mottos of our podcast

1636
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:40,680
is that we talk about power, 
money and love because those are

1637
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:44,280
all such important aspects of 
like a holistic life. 

1638
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:47,000
So in that vein, maybe you can 
just like tell us a little bit 

1639
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:50,560
more more about your husband and
like your relationship and just 

1640
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:54,680
kind of like your journey with 
like love, I guess, because also

1641
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:56,840
for context, we're both recently
single. 

1642
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:01,560
So like we're on that journey. 
Yeah, it's a beautiful journey. 

1643
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:05,640
It's hard to be on the journey 
sometimes it's hard to see it 

1644
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:08,720
like, Oh my God, of course 
you'll look back and you'll be 

1645
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:11,640
like, oh, I should have enjoyed 
it more, but it is hard. 

1646
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:15,920
It's stressful and it's anxious.
And before I met my husband, I 

1647
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:20,920
was super anxious too. 
And we met when we were both 

1648
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:26,920
like totally poor and like, you 
know, living off of whatever 

1649
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:32,000
came our way, like, and we both 
kind of supported each other to 

1650
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,520
different levels of success in 
our, we've met in 2004. 

1651
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:40,120
And so now we've been together 
21 years and that's a long time.

1652
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:42,720
That's a long journey. 
There's dreams that you both 

1653
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:46,160
have that you have to figure out
how to have in parallel. 

1654
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,240
You can do it in parallel. 
It's just it's a lot of 

1655
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:54,200
negotiating and but it's also 
incredible to watch the other 

1656
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:56,480
one. 
You know, you're like sometimes 

1657
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:01,920
you leapfrog each other and if 
you have the maturity to know 

1658
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:04,600
that that's like a great thing 
and you're not like competitive 

1659
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,080
with each other and you're 
really supportive. 

1660
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:08,520
It's just such a cool 
relationship. 

1661
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:13,040
I mean, we're as best friends as
we are, you know, life partners 

1662
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:15,400
and parent, you know, parenting 
partners. 

1663
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:19,520
And he probably can't understand
everyday what I do and I don't 

1664
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:21,160
always understand everyday what 
he does. 

1665
01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:25,480
But like the crux of like what 
we're here to do together to to 

1666
01:24:25,480 --> 01:24:28,360
allow each person to thrive is 
has always been like at the 

1667
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:31,280
center of our partnership. 
I dated a lot of people before 

1668
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:36,440
him that didn't want somebody to
be more of a success than they 

1669
01:24:36,440 --> 01:24:40,280
were or as equal of a success as
they were didn't want it, you 

1670
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:44,080
know, and eventually that's why 
we didn't last. 

1671
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:48,800
I found my husband, Nick, and I 
think I mentioned this book to 

1672
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:51,160
you guys before, but he was five
years younger than me. 

1673
01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:53,520
Yeah. 
He was 22 when we met. 

1674
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:55,240
I was 27. 
I was like, there's no way this 

1675
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:57,600
is lasting. 
He was like, he's he was just 21

1676
01:24:57,600 --> 01:24:59,440
last week, right? 
Like, I was like, crazy. 

1677
01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:03,840
But he was an old soul. 
And he just he, he was raised by

1678
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:09,360
a single mom and she taught him 
to respect the crap out of 

1679
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:11,840
women. 
And he just did that my whole 

1680
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,760
our whole existence together. 
He respected me so much. 

1681
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:18,320
I was many levels of in my 
career above him when we first 

1682
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:19,640
met. 
He loved that. 

1683
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:23,440
He loved the idea that I was 
going after everything that I 

1684
01:25:23,440 --> 01:25:26,320
had dreamed of going after. 
And he supported that every 

1685
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:28,480
step. 
That's the crux of who we are as

1686
01:25:28,480 --> 01:25:32,040
a couple. 
Is that how like you knew he was

1687
01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:34,920
the one? 
Like, is that like a realization

1688
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:40,520
over time or was it Oh. 
Maybe I I knew, honestly, I knew

1689
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:41,960
he was the one the day I met 
him. 

1690
01:25:41,960 --> 01:25:44,520
Oh my gosh. 
Which is weird, I think some 

1691
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:47,480
people say that, but I truly 
made a phone call to my aunt the

1692
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:49,720
next day I met him and I said I 
found my husband. 

1693
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:52,240
She was like why did I tell her 
about him? 

1694
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:54,280
She's like, you're not marrying 
a 22 year old. 

1695
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:58,680
Like what are you talking about?
Like watching Bet Bet. 

1696
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:01,600
But I did know, I mean, there 
was maybe it was just that 

1697
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,960
universal like cosmic moment 
where you look, this is 

1698
01:26:05,240 --> 01:26:08,320
something that I have not 
experienced before, but then, 

1699
01:26:08,440 --> 01:26:11,400
you know, you over time start to
understand like the depths of 

1700
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:15,000
what that stuff is and why he's 
so supportive of my success. 

1701
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:17,760
And honestly, to this day, we 
are he's Aceo. 

1702
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:22,320
I'm, you know, a version of that
at like, you know, I'm running 

1703
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:23,720
your a bunch of businesses, 
right? 

1704
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:27,400
I travel and he stays at home 
with the kids. 

1705
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:29,080
He travels and I stay at home 
with the kids. 

1706
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:31,360
And we just have the an 
understanding that there are 

1707
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:33,360
going to be moments that are 
really hard and we're going to 

1708
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:37,840
be alone in New York City with 
our kids doing balancing at all.

1709
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:41,400
And we just have to do it do 
like pull it together and be 

1710
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:44,040
there for each other. 
And it's, it's great. 

1711
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:46,480
It's hard, but it's really, 
really great. 

1712
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:49,040
So Leah, we have time for one 
more question. 

1713
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:53,120
And I think as Jean and I are 
looking back to our podcast, 

1714
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:56,360
like a theme is like giving 
advice to our younger selves. 

1715
01:26:56,640 --> 01:27:00,280
And so if you were to give a 
piece of advice in your to 

1716
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:03,000
yourself in your early 30s, what
would you tell yourself? 

1717
01:27:03,440 --> 01:27:05,480
Being a mom is so important to 
me. 

1718
01:27:05,480 --> 01:27:08,760
Oh, I'm going to get emotional, 
Yeah. 

1719
01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:11,600
We're like locked in. 
Hang on. 

1720
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:14,760
Yeah, sorry. 
Yeah, Hmm. 

1721
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:20,640
Sorry guys, no, all good. 
I'm so glad. 

1722
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:29,360
OK, I'm so sorry. 
No, this is I'm, I'm. 

1723
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:31,160
I wish I had a tissue. 
Have a tissue, right? 

1724
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:34,280
Dinesh. 
I'm so sorry, no. 

1725
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:40,160
This is. 
A good conversation, Very good 

1726
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:43,600
conversation. 
No, don't apologize. 

1727
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:48,840
Yeah, really do not apologize. 
That's how we know it's a good 

1728
01:27:48,840 --> 01:28:01,240
convo we got there all right. 
We're good, OK. 

1729
01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:08,680
I think I like really came into 
my own when I became a mom and I

1730
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:11,320
was working because all these 
like 3 things in my life 

1731
01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:13,080
collided. 
It was like I was a wife. 

1732
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:17,680
I was on my way upward in the 
workforce and then I became a 

1733
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:21,280
mom and I became a mom like the 
first time I tried. 

1734
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:26,640
And so I, and that was maybe in 
like my mid 30s and I was like, 

1735
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:29,720
whoa, OK, like maybe I don't 
have to rush like the second 

1736
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:31,840
baby because I got pregnant 
right away. 

1737
01:28:32,480 --> 01:28:34,840
And then I did have a really, 
really hard time getting 

1738
01:28:34,840 --> 01:28:38,840
pregnant, my second one and went
through like loads, rounds and 

1739
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,720
rounds and rounds of IVF. 
Couldn't get pregnant, couldn't 

1740
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,200
get pregnant. 
And it, those were like dark 

1741
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:51,160
days of my life because I wanted
something that I like couldn't 

1742
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:55,640
make happen. 
And really to that point, I had 

1743
01:28:55,640 --> 01:28:58,800
been able to make most things 
that I want happen. 

1744
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:02,600
Like, yes, I found an amazing 
person to spend my life with and

1745
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:07,440
I really was moving up in my 
career and this thing just like 

1746
01:29:07,440 --> 01:29:11,680
couldn't do and it was so hard. 
So I think like the advice to 

1747
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:17,960
the younger self is like, maybe 
like don't assume that something

1748
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:22,240
is that comes to you easily. 
It's always going to be easy. 

1749
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:25,360
Like there are thing there are 
moments that you're going to 

1750
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:28,440
have to like climb a mountain 
and figure out how to get. 

1751
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:33,480
And it is a lot of hard in or 
outer work to do. 

1752
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:37,560
And it's not just maybe being a 
mom like this, this, it lends 

1753
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:39,680
itself to other areas of life 
too. 

1754
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:41,920
But like sometimes you start out
in the workforce and you're 

1755
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:43,480
like, this is so easy. 
It's amazing. 

1756
01:29:43,480 --> 01:29:48,000
And then you just hit a wall and
you have a really horrible boss 

1757
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:51,800
or you, your company goes 
through a total restructure and 

1758
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:55,040
everything goes to crap. 
Or like, you know, this is just 

1759
01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:57,280
life. 
Like it's like really hard 

1760
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:00,520
things happen that you have to 
figure out how to manage in your

1761
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:02,840
life. 
Like that was one of the harder 

1762
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:06,360
things that I went through and I
was so depressed for a couple of

1763
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:08,760
years and then I just kind of 
gave it up. 

1764
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:10,040
I was like, all right, that's 
fine. 

1765
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:11,920
I have one. 
He's amazing. 

1766
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:13,560
I'm going to be fine with just 
one. 

1767
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:17,360
And I mean, out of the blue 
miracle like I had, I got 

1768
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:19,320
pregnant naturally with my 
daughter. 

1769
01:30:20,480 --> 01:30:25,160
I joke that my, I, my, my 
gynecologist told me, Oh yeah, 

1770
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:27,840
this happens all the time. 
It's like an egg exfoliation. 

1771
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:30,760
She was like, you like go 
through, you go through IVF, you

1772
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:33,520
get the bad eggs out and then 
like one pops up later and 

1773
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:37,760
becomes like a real human. 
So I had my like exfoliation, I 

1774
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:42,200
guess in my good egg popped up, 
but it worked out. 

1775
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:46,080
It was just a really, really, 
really, really hard, dark road. 

1776
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:48,880
And I think as women, even if 
you have a life partner there to

1777
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:51,560
support every ounce of it with 
you and cry every ounce of it 

1778
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:57,080
with you, you, you take it so 
seriously and you say it's your 

1779
01:30:57,080 --> 01:30:59,000
fault and it's really, really 
hard. 

1780
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:02,120
So that was a hard journey. 
And so there's levels of that. 

1781
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:04,440
It's like the easy and the heart
of it all expect it. 

1782
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,960
But also as a woman like they're
it really is. 

1783
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:13,600
We deal with biology that is in 
competition with our career 

1784
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:16,920
growth sometimes. 
And there's like no formula for 

1785
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:21,200
a universal answer or formula. 
Yeah, it's. 

1786
01:31:21,440 --> 01:31:24,920
It's our blessing and our burden
at the same time. 

1787
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:27,920
It totally. 
Is very special and it's super 

1788
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:30,960
emotional to talk about and 
everybody has a different 

1789
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:38,680
version of the story and it's 
like, I don't know, it's a 

1790
01:31:38,680 --> 01:31:42,880
bespoke moment that everybody 
has to figure out on their own 

1791
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:45,080
because they're approaching it 
in different ways. 

1792
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,320
It's a blessing and a curse, but
we have our best friends, we 

1793
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,680
have our work wives. 
We also have, you know, the 

1794
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:54,760
resilience that we talked about 
earlier. 

1795
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:58,280
We have our therapy, we have the
toolkit to get through it. 

1796
01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:01,520
Even though you know, rain falls
on our lives, rain falls on 

1797
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:05,200
everyone's lives there, there is
a way to get through it, so. 

1798
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:07,440
Totally. 
Thank you so much. 

1799
01:32:07,440 --> 01:32:09,640
Thank you for sharing. 
That with us, Yeah. 

1800
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:11,840
Oh my God, That's a perfect wrap
up. 

1801
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:13,240
Yeah, yeah. 
Oh my. 

1802
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:13,880
God, thanks. 
Thank you. 

1803
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:15,240
I wanted to give. 
You some sweet. 

1804
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:20,280
Oh my God. 
Thank you. 

1805
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:24,040
That was an amazing conversation
with Leah. 

1806
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:26,360
I love Leah. 
And as you can tell, we're huge 

1807
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:29,480
fans of her, obviously in her 
career, but just her as a 

1808
01:32:29,480 --> 01:32:31,400
person. 
We're so bad so much. 

1809
01:32:32,320 --> 01:32:34,960
If you're doing an end of your 
audit of your life or just a 

1810
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:37,400
January reset, let this be the 
shift for you. 

1811
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:40,600
OK, so Lorraine just gave us the
perception layer, which is how 

1812
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:42,800
your leadership gets read in 
real time. 

1813
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:45,680
And then Leah gave us the 
influence layer, which is how to

1814
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,160
turn that perception into actual
outcomes. 

1815
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,400
So if you're starting the new 
year with a friend who's also 

1816
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:53,880
working on self growth, send 
them this episode so you can 

1817
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:56,080
discuss it together. 
Thank you guys so much for 

1818
01:32:56,080 --> 01:32:58,000
tuning in to this episode of 
Tiger Sisters. 

1819
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:00,800
We would so appreciate it if you
could subscribe to our channel 

1820
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:04,240
and leave us a five star review.
It literally takes 5 seconds and

1821
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:07,240
it's so important for the 
survival and growth of Tiger 

1822
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:09,000
Sisters. 
Bye bye. 

1823
01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:12,400
Have out a voice seal next. 
We'll see you next. 

1824
01:33:12,480 --> 01:33:13,080
Time. 
OK. 

1825
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:16,400
We'll see you guys next week. 
Bye.