My loneliness is killing. Me.
So you think the male loneliness epidemic is due to capitalism?
Yes, there's an economy for this.
This is probably the first generation of men forced to
navigate the type of self hate and body dysmorphia that we've
previously only ever demanded of women.
That's not good for men, it's not good for women, it's not
good for anyone. It's not good for children.
It's not. Good for dogs, it's not good for
cats. Instead of gaming, how about
pottery? Instead of.
Pornography. How about?
Gardening. Let us know in the comments if
you want to see us go undercover.
As a lonely man, you can't progress on a problem and try to
move towards a solution unless you name the problem and then
you discuss it and then you put it out there in the world.
There are no silver bullets, but there are Silver Linings.
And what I mean by that is that there are no quick fixes.
So like, I'm proud of us for tackling what is actually like a
pretty complex topic. I must confess I still believe,
Still believe. I'm Cherie, I'm Jean, and we're
the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and
Silicon Valley Big Sisters. And we're a top ten business
podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom
strategy. Hey guys, we really need to talk
about the male loneliness epidemic.
Is it actually an epidemic? I mean, I'm pretty sure it is,
this is the first of a series that we're doing where we're
doing kind of this like cultural investigation episode where we
talk about this cultural touch point and we really get into it
with lots of facts and figures, but also a real life male
correspondent coming your way. Yes.
And so today in this episode, we're going to be doing three
things. Number one, we're going to
examine the rise in loneliness across the board #2 we're going
to hone in specifically on cultural touch points that
explore male loneliness in the most recent years.
And #3 the thing that I'm most excited for, we're going to sit
down with a real life man. My friend Ron Busby is going to
share some of his experiences and thoughts on this topic.
By the end, to wrap it all up, we're going to have some key
takeaways that are things that people can do, both men and
women, to address male loneliness so that we can all
live in a happier and more connected world together.
Today's episode is presented by Sofi, the All in
No one really knows me. That actually kind of breaks my
heart. It's like low key, so sad.
It's really sad. Not a single person.
OK, well this next stat is even sadder.
The research in the Survey Center on American Life found
that 15% of men claim that they have no close friends.
Should we actually be worried about this?
Yeah, I mean, I understand why people are calling it an
epidemic. So can you please help us define
what an epidemic actually means? Yes, OK, so according to Oxford,
an epidemic is a rapid spread of a disease affecting a large
number of people in a community or region, far exceeding what's
normally expected. So it's basically somewhere
between an outbreak and a pandemic.
I think this is actually the main thesis of this entire
episode, which is how something that's called the male
loneliness epidemic is something that has become everyone's
problem in society. I'm excited to leave this
episode on a very positive note because like throughout, you're
going to notice there are some, like, pretty bleak statistics.
Yeah, but there are like, really good outcomes if we work
together on this. And I'm not saying we're going
to solve male loneliness in the next like 30 minutes to an hour.
But I think as long as like, we're having more of a
discussion on it, we're able to break it down for people so that
it's more understandable. It's not something that we
should be afraid of, but it's something that we should just
continue to have more conversation around.
Exactly. And the first way you can
address a problem or first way to solve a problem is to name it
and address it, which is what we're going to do today.
I think first let's break down the concept of loneliness and
even the idea of male loneliness.
Like, why is that such a term in culture today?
And do men experience loneliness in a way that's different than
the way women experience it? Yeah, it's really interesting
that it's like marketed this way because isn't everyone lonely?
There's just like a loneliness epidemic in general, because
before it was reported by the CDC coming out of the pandemic,
that in 2023, there was just like rising levels of loneliness
across the board. Yeah, I mean, I am, I
experienced that. I must say, I think a lot of
people were really lonely during the pandemic.
Yeah. And that's why people were,
like, drinking so much wine. I think another thing that
happened during the pandemic is that everyone got used to being
so like online and remember like the online happy hours that you
would have after work. Like a Zoom call at like 4:00 PM
on a Friday and you're like, please let me leave.
I don't want. To leave because I cannot show.
I can't show my face on the screen anymore.
Well, I don't even want to look at a screen anymore.
So, yeah, but so there a lot of studies on that now.
So there's this 2024 study from Harvard that showed that 73% of
people say loneliness is because of technology.
Yeah, I think there's also this concept of, like, social
snacking where, like, you are on your phone all the time.
You're scrolling through things. You might feel like you're
watching people's stories and you're like, oh, I kind of know
them, but like, you're not actually interacting with them
in real life. But I'm like, oh, I know
everything about what they're doing day-to-day.
It's this like weird parasocial thing that happens now on social
media. Right.
But you're not actually getting any real life synchronous
connection with people where you're like exchanging energy
and atoms and like, you know, resolving the loneliness,
quality time. Yeah, yeah, there is no quality
time on social media with another person, I feel like.
Yeah. So I think that's why it's
called like social snacking. It's like you're just getting
these little nibbles or like niblets of social interaction
throughout the day, but it doesn't actually add up to a
full meal. Like you're never actually going
to be full from it. Yikes.
And to top it all off, The Economist had an article come
out in 2025 that highlighted declining marriage rates due to
a gap in higher education and economic independence,
especially among women, and digital life replacing physical
life. Yeah, this is a great sort of
like precursor to our next episode, where we're going to
talk about this whole entire concept of how women are now
choosing to be single because they don't want to marry down.
Yeah, so check out our Galantine's Day episode coming
next week. Not too much away, Not where we
talk more about this. So I think like all these stats
are helpful to sort of set the stage, but also I want people to
know that like, you don't have to feel depressed about it,
right? Like, I think we're doing the
right thing here. We're.
Doing the work. Yeah, we're doing the work in
actually naming it. And once we name it and we talk
about it, then we can actually, you know, work to solve it.
So I think like another person who's done a really good job of
bringing it to light is actually Scott Galloway.
Yeah, he recently had a conversation, I think it was in
December of last year with Oprah, and it was super eye
opening because they talk about the rising levels of loneliness,
disconnection and emotional suppression.
The reality is men need relationships much more than
women. The statistics are pretty stark.
If you walk into a morgue and there's five people who've died
by suicide, four men. I'm in marketing.
We used to think that it was sex that sells.
Then the algorithms found something that sells even more
in terms of gluing you to a screen, and that is rage.
I mean, I don't necessarily agree with everything Scott
Galloway says, but I think it's important to have a man,
especially a man that like other men are looking up to, that's
not part of the manosphere. And we'll get into that.
But like, they see another man being vulnerable and talking
about this, and I think that's also making a step in the right
direction. I think a really important thing
that Scott Galloway called out in his episode was the fact that
for men in society, especially Western society, the most
socially acceptable form of expressing dissatisfaction or
unhappiness is anger. Yeah, that kind of perpetuates
in a lot of different ways. Well, I think it's just like men
can feel complex emotions, but the way that it's outwardly
expressed is through anger, sadness, loneliness, like these
other emotions, you know, there's many more of them, but
they all kind of like funnel into like, oh, like Hulk smash.
And that's exactly why male loneliness is a public problem.
It's like, that's why it's actually a public health
problem. That's why it's everyone's
problem. Because the way that men sort of
like metabolize loneliness, metabolize dissatisfaction,
metabolize depression is outward anger.
As opposed to, I think the way that women are socialized, the
way that we've grown up our entire lives is to sort of like
push it down, not make other people uncomfortable when we're
uncomfortable, right? Like we're always reading the
room. We're always being like, is
everyone else OK? Like we are trained to like, sit
on our emotions. And it's like a more of a
private issue. Yes, it's a private issue.
I think that is the main difference is private versus
public expressions. Yeah, it's interesting because
like this problem, it's like very circular because I think
like men are taught not to show a multitude of emotions by this,
by society, you know, they're like, look, it's looked down
upon. And because of that, they're
like bottling everything up and then it explodes into anger.
It's just like this reinforcing loop that's not good for men,
it's not good for women, it's not good for anyone.
It's not good for children, it's not good for dogs, it's not good
for. Cats, it's bad for everyone.
It's bad for all around. It's like a reinforced thing in
society too, because I think a lot of men are facing their
emotions by bottling it up. Whereas like women in society
have other women to lean on. It's like the male loneliness.
They're lonely because they can't talk to anyone about their
feelings because then once they do, they become vulnerable and
they open up and that's not accepted.
So it's like women have, I mean cry alone when they're sad or
depressed in. Private commiserate in bathrooms
Together bathrooms. Or like they have a stronger
friend group that they can rely on and, you know, vent with in
like a healthy way. There's this 2025 article in the
American Institute for Boys and Men, founded by Richard Reeves,
where they found that many men are withdrawing instead of
trying harder and trying to actually engage in society.
So what they're doing is they're going on less dates, they're
having less sex, they are spending more time on solitary
activities. So that's gaming, that's
streaming, that's watching pornography, that's creating
online communities that are. Harmful.
Harmful and like, not so savory. I mean, instead of gaming, how
about pottery? Instead of.
Pornography. How about gardening?
What about being one with the earth?
You know, sowing some seeds? Oh my God, in the actual
physical garden. She wants you to go and touch
grass, like or touch clay. Yes, basically, sure.
He's like touch one of two things, grass or clay.
The one with the earth and she gets.
Some solved male loneliness like by the way, did I think she
solved? It did I go on a hike, get a
dog. I think these are these are
like. Legitimate suggestions.
These are just all things that Cherie enjoys doing.
Just like go for a swim in the morning.
Go for a morning swim in like a cold pool.
Seek therapy. Your vagus nerve.
Yeah, I I think all these things are really good.
Get a massage. What if we do the opposite?
What if, in in service of investigative journalism, we do
all these things true? What if we?
Yeah, yeah. And then I recommend them to all
the men out there who are. No, I'm saying what if we
stream, we game, we watch pornography.
No, I think I'd be sad if I did all those things, like
exclusively, you know what I mean?
Well, yeah, I mean, that's what this study found.
Yeah. So it's not good.
But you could prove it by trying it.
No, thank you. Pass Let us know in the comments
if you want to see us go undercover as a lonely man.
If you were a real journalist, you would do it if you were a
real investigative journalist. That's true.
I am not a real investigative I. Challenge you?
Okay, well one more thing I think is very interesting is
that obviously we've brought a ton of stats and studies and
research into it, but even the concept of loneliness itself is
very internal and it's all very like self reported.
So we're still relying on men even recognizing that they're
lonely, which I suspect it's still heavily under reported.
Yeah, because that's not something you want to admit to
yourself. Yeah, like even I'm not a man,
I'm a woman. But I in times when I've been
lonely, like you don't want to admit it.
It's sad. It like makes you even more
lonely to to admit that you're lonely.
It's like, right. I'm so lonely.
Wait. That's like the saddest thing
ever to be like I'm lonely. Well, I actually a couple months
ago, like in 2025, remember, I had like a lonely face.
Yeah. And then I had like, this was a
real thing. Where?
Like and then I felt bad because like she was living with me.
I'm like, why you lonely? Like we're, we're hanging out
like all the time. Well, it wasn't.
It's not like you're, it's your fault.
It was something I was feeling internally.
I know, but I felt bad. Too.
You're such an empath and. You don't.
Need to. Be I have problems.
But I think the thing that that I was dealing with was that
like, there's a difference between feeling lonely and just
being alone. Like you can be alone without
being for sure, which is something that like towards the
end of last year, I felt like I was hanging out with my sister
for work, my like one really good friend in LA.
And then my boyfriend and I was just like, where are my other
friend? Like I was just so concentrated
on like, those three relationships that I felt I felt
lonely because like, I think I'm used to like, just being around
a lot of people all the time. Yeah.
But I was like hyper focused on just like work stuff.
So that consumed a lot of my life.
Yeah. And so it's balancing loneliness
versus alone with a heart around it.
Yeah. I mean, I think actually you are
really, really good at being alone in a healthy way.
So like, you're one of the first people that I knew that was
going to see movies by yourself because you thought it was fun.
Yeah, you. This was like groundbreaking.
It was like groundbreaking to me.
Wait guys, I did it for the first time ever this year in
2026. She went to the movie theater by
herself. By myself and it was so fun.
Can we do a breaking news banner and some like news music
breaking news woman goes to the movies alone by herself for the
first. Time, yeah.
I mean, you were out of town, you were skiing.
So I was like, I guess I'll go by myself.
I actually. Feel like this is like a pretty
new phenomenon, just like in culture, like taking yourself
out because I see it on TikTok like a girl's like, Oh my God,
like this is a huge milestone. And it is.
I've just been doing it for a couple.
Years. She's writing so low, Writing so
low. Jason Derülo, like you said,
solo dinner and the song was playing in my head.
Really, it's fun. You can like bring a book, bring
your Kindle and then just enjoy you time, get whatever you want.
You don't have to compromise like we're not sharing apps.
All these apps are for me. So get whatever you want.
It's like really refreshing. Solo dolo?
Solo dolo. So I guess you're not lonely
anymore. Anymore.
But back to this idea of lonely men.
So have you ever been affected by a lonely man?
Yeah. So in my early 20s, I dated this
guy and very early on I realized that he didn't have many close
guy friends or girlfriends for that matter.
Also, I guess he didn't really have that many friends, period.
But very interestingly, I introduced him to my group of
guy friends, my group of friends and the guys that he met.
And it was uncomfortable and my guy friends later told me that
like it was just really weird because there's the guy I was
dating had like an alpha energy. He like couldn't really connect
with my guy friends. He was trying to like one up
them or kind of put them down. It like just wasn't like a fit
for personality, which is weird because like I like the guy I
was dating and I also like my guy friends.
So I thought they would be able to get along.
So it was very odd that there was this like macho energy.
Machismo. Machismo energy, yeah.
So I don't know. I've like seen it up close that
like he didn't really have that many friends and wasn't able to
form that connection. And like, did you see some of
these other symptoms? Like, you felt like you had to
be the 1:00 to, I don't know, like initiate conversations
about, like, how are you feeling?
Like, you seem like, yeah, he was kind of repressed.
You had a bad day like. He was definitely avoidant, OK,
and I was definitely anxious in my early 20s.
So anxious plus avoidant is not a good combo for two people to
be dating in your early 20s when we're still developing our
prefrontal cortex. But also he was like very
repressed. Like I think he he went inward a
lot. There was a lot of gaming and a
lot of streaming. Interesting.
That's why I was gonna ask. Interestingly, OK, I didn't
actually put that together until like, we're kind of talking
about it. Yeah, but he did game a bit and
like have I think a lot of his internal stuff going on.
Well, thank you for sharing. I think that's really
interesting to have like your account of your experience of it
and I also think it is the perfect time to bring on our
male correspondent. A real life man, a real life
man, my friend Ron Busby. And we'll get into the
conversation with Ron right after this break.
So you know how every year I have a New Year's resolution
around finances? Oh, I have one too for 2026.
New year, new opportunity to get our money right.
And part of that is having a bank that isn't just a place to
park our cash, but something that actually works for us.
Exactly. And that's where our sponsor,
Sofi Plus comes in. Sofi Plus is a premium
membership that pulls everything together, banking, investing and
financial planning all in one. Place with qualifying activities
Sofi Plus members can unlock $1000 or more in annual value.
That value comes from things like 5% cash back at grocery
stores or an investment match for your IRA.
Oh, my favorite one is the unlimited one-on-one sessions
with Sofi Wealth Financial planners.
Sofi Plus is a great way to get more for your money and you can
get started for just $10 a month.
Go to sofi.com/tiger plusthatssofi.com/tigerplus.
And now back to our show. We're really excited because
this is our male correspondence section of the podcast, our
first ever, first ever. And we'd like to welcome Ron
Busby, who is my friend from college and also the Co founder
and head of product of Buy Black, which is a company that
helps and empowers black-owned businesses and business owners.
Thank you all so much for having me, I really appreciate it.
Yay welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast.
Happy. To be here was how do you say a
long time listener, first time caller.
Oh yeah, there you go. You ready to dive into the male
loneliness epidemic? Yes, you know, I'm looking
forward to unpacking this and I think entering the inner
recesses of the male mind. What could possibly be going on
there? Yeah.
So, Ron, are you lonely? Starting off like that, yeah.
The real question is, when you hear the phrase like male
loneliness, as we've been talking about in this episode,
what parts resonate with your own lived experience and what
parts feel overstated or misunderstood?
Yeah. I mean, I think that in many
ways, yes, I I think we all naturally feel some degree of
loneliness. And I think it's really
important to own that and not pathologize it as something so
unique and only exclusive to men.
To your question around, you know, what does it mean and what
do I think about that? For me at least, when we talk
about male loneliness, what I'm more interested in is the idea
of like male alienation. And when we talk about it from
that idea, I think we're able to better point to who and what are
actually creating and facilitating that kind of
reality. That to me is way more dangerous
and pernicious, but it's actually more emblematic of what
is at the stakes for men today. Yeah, what?
You mean like self alienation? Male self alienation.
Funny enough, I I think it's more about what society and our
economy and what are. Our educational system are doing
to men and ultimately how that sort of creates these ripple
effects. And if we are able to have a
modicum a bit of like earnest empathy, then we actually may be
able to step outside of this idea of like, oh, it's it's a
male problem or it's a men's problem.
Rather than actually like we have a social media
infrastructure that is actually benefiting from us being on our
phones rather outside with each other.
And that actually then sort of double S down into all these
other realities that we're experiencing.
Yeah, I think it's a pretty bold take for you to say that society
is kind of causing this sort of male alienation crisis when we
live in a patriarchy. I And so I think the reality is
that, right, patriarchy impacts men as well.
And so the idea that men aren't victims is exactly what allows
us to create this binary, right? This conversation is inherently
very heteronormative. But like the idea that men are
also at risk of some sort of violence by the systems that
they've also created, it robs them of the agency and robs them
of the capacity to be empathetic individuals in this.
And so I think that's also what's really important.
Yeah, that's an interesting nuance, but I find it quite
frustrating. Slash, like, I don't know, like
my head is on fire in the sense that like women have been, I
don't know, like I don't even want to say victims, but like
the patriarchy has been inflicted onto them.
And like, for the first time in society, like in social times, I
feel like men are feeling like the patriarchy being inflicted
onto them and being like much more vocal about it because of
the male loneliness epidemic. Yeah, I mean, I think that
there's no doubt about it. Men are particularly lonely.
But, you know, I think there was this Pew study that came out of
2025 that said that 15% of women feel lonely all or some of the
time, but 16% of men feel all lonely all or, or most of the
time. And I think what's important is
actually realizing that we are all experiencing loneliness.
And the reality is it just happens to be, at least in my
perspective, is that it's just more dangerous when men are
lonely. OK, so Ron, what I'm hearing is
that there is a rising loneliness epidemic across the
field for both men and women, and perhaps it is more visible
for men, but let's dive into the definitions here.
I know one thing that we've seen is that the UN actually put
together a glossary of terms that are sort of in the male
loneliness slash manosphere world.
So we don't have to go by the, you know, UN definition.
But I would love to hear from you what are some sort of like
key terms that are in this sort of ecosystem and like how do you
define them? Yeah, I think one of them is
probably like manosphere, right? I think it's already kind of
come up. And I think Manosphere is this
conglomeration of media, websites, places that men, most
often digitally are talking about.
All these things are as relates to their own views and their own
skews around the economy, around diversity, around politics and
around dating. And so those things end up
having, I think often times a very like productized element,
right? So a podcast in between the ad
break is going to sell you the carnivore diet, or is going to
sell you the blue shoes and the pills for erectile dysfunction,
or is going to tell you that what you really need to do is
take more testosterone. And so the idea that actually
there is an infrastructure that both pirates and profiteers can
participate in, that push this kind of element, is really what
fuels an economy of the manosphere.
I'm like so terrified of that because it becomes this like
really scary echo chamber where it's like, it's the manosphere
and like the ads that you're seeing, the guests, the voices.
When you say diversity, I'm like thinking in my head.
I'm like, diversity of what? Like of what guests are they
having? Like literally height or like
beard or no beard. I think that's about right.
I mean, and the, I think recognizing that there is a
language that we are maybe not a part of as much.
And when I say we, I probably am more adjacent to it than most
just by virtue of gender. But like knowing that there are
worlds that you just can't access and because of that you
actually may not understand or appreciate how insular it is.
It does sort of create a a spiral effect downwards
sometimes. Well, I think nowadays too, like
the manosphere and outside of the manosphere, like everyone
has their own algorithm. So when you are a part of the
manosphere, you just go deeper and deeper into that hole or
like, you know, whatever you're into, you just are in that
vertical and like what you're watching is not what other
people are watching. I mean what I'll even add to
that is you know, I was having a conversation with my 10 year old
cousin and we were joking about what chads were and what giga
chads were and what looks maxing was.
Let's. Go into this.
You know, the idea that he gets it almost in an ambient way, he
understands what this is. He may not necessarily buy into
this. He's not necessarily looking to
neg women, but like he understands that some level what
the language is. And so knowing that that
actually means that he is more primed to be able to both
negotiate and navigate what other men are talking about is
concerning. And I know we we kind of have
pointed at this, but the idea that in cell culture has just
sort of really become a layer on top of the way that we talk
about all of this. I want to say it's even like 4B
is the language when you talk about like, you know, women in
terms of this, but the idea that.
I'm not familiar with 4B. It's this like Korean movement
where women are saying that they are not going to have children
anymore because they want to opt out of basically the patriarchy
and like the expectations put on them.
But so I think the idea that in cell culture as it particularly
is relevant to men, but like the fact that me and a 10 year old
20 years apart can be connected to some degree in our
conversations about mewing and, you know, mogging is really, it
almost feels like a foreign language when I'm right next to
his mother and she's trying to understand like, what part of
the world is he on? And it's like, oh, like, maybe
we need to get off of video games or maybe we need to not
be, I don't know, streaming on Twitch.
And I think the reality is that there are a lot of people who
are actually doing a great job of meeting people where they
are, meeting them in the mediums that there are in and to
actually demand maybe a different perspective to some
degree. Letting those men and letting
those faces only operate and exist for a certain type of
politic and idea can only allow it to fester as well.
OK, so I agree with your concept, but when you said it, I
definitely bristled because I was like, OK, like, why do we
have to do this? Just because that men are having
these sort of like dangerous conversations in these spaces?
Like, why do we have to go into these spaces and insert
ourselves? Because it's never happened for
women, right? Like in society, it's not like
when women are sad and depressed or lonely.
There's no, there hasn't been an effort to do the same thing, to
like enter women's spaces and like help women that way.
Not that you know. I know you don't represent all
men, but you are a male correspondent and you did
propose that as a solution. And so I would say this, I don't
think that this is the responsibility of and I put this
like air quotes of women to solve exclusively or even in any
majority way, right? I'm not necessarily looking and
pointing a finger and saying, you know what the problem is?
You're not on Twitch right now live, you know, talking to the
boys. That's not I'm not demanding
that. I think what I'm also saying is
that it's going to any real progress is going to really
require a deeply inclusive strategy on how we actually push
this agenda forward. And I think that there it's much
easier to be austere and say, hey, you know, we don't want to
practice a politic of purity. Hey, this is the way that it
gets done. Anything that's not in that is
actually not worthy of my time. And the reality is that these
conversations are happening. And so whether it's me or my
friends or whatnot, we owe it to ourselves to actually extend an
olive branch and bring those men in because we know that, you
know, male loneliness, right? Men are 3 * 3 or 4 times more
likely to commit suicide, right? So the reality is the mass
violence, the, the shootings, the, the people who are most at
risk of the downstream impacts of loneliness can't afford for
me to be like, oh, like, it's not my problem.
It's, it's, it's not where I personally want to be.
I think that's really important in that regard.
And then just to put a point on it, would you say that the
prevailing cultural force like is the manosphere, is that the
majority? And we're just like, so stuck in
our ivory towers that we have no concept of it.
I absolutely don't think that the manosphere is some sort of
dark horse in all of our politics that somehow is
operating at some cabal level. That is, you know, the, the, the
new Illuminati of like the way that we exist.
What I do think is that we probably are not doing enough to
really own and accept how important it is to bring men
into progressive agendas. Well, so Ron, before you
mentioned some vocab words and I kind of want to get into some
definitions, you said Chad giga, Chad mewing, mogging.
Like what is the overall definition for a Chad?
A Chad is this Internet term for a generic alpha male or a print
or a dominant man. And they are often times, I
guess, like an effortlessly formidable guy.
And they're, I think, put as this archetype, an archetype of
what often times insell men are trying to compete against.
And so they kind of have this almost seemingly easy way of
existing through life. And it almost robs these guys
that they're calling chads of the ability to be, you know,
broken or upset or, you know, insecure.
And because they are not allowed empathy, because they should be
easily able to kind of operate and move through life, it
creates these dynamic of this man versus this man.
Yeah. And so for Chad, like can we
talk a little bit more about like some of the repercussions,
like the when we talk about the physicality and how now there's
like a level of expectation that like men have to look a certain
way, like what is what is that all about?
I think what's super interesting is thinking about how meme
cultures also helped sort of articulate what we visually
assume these men are supposed to be.
Super jacked, nose stripped. Like the the jaw is extremely
chiseled. Like it.
It's funny to think how easy we've kind of created these
visual markers of a certain type of man as like what we all
aspire to. I think that's the reason why
all the boys are going to Turkey to get the hairlines.
You know, I think that's the reason why there is literally
gum that you can buy that will help you build your jawline to
have it more defined. Like the amount of men who are
now doing something called pinning.
Pinning is the increase or just the use of steroids.
Anabolic steroid usage is up among men because they want to
look more yoked, they want to look more brolic, they want to
look more aki like this. OK.
The last one I've never heard. Aki.
Aki is definitely a New York term for like, strong.
Maybe I want to be Aki. Yeah, Hey, as we all should
aspire to, you know, a little little defined is not a bad
thing. Look, I mean, I'll even point to
the fact that we have something called the enhanced Games,
right? The fact that there is now going
to be an Olympics where people do steroids in Las Vegas.
What? Is that really?
Yes, this is a thing right? And you know you can if you if
you break a world record, you can get like something like
250,000 to $1,000,000 in certain, certain events.
But I don't love that because doing long, doing steroids has
long term like side effects and health effects and that's not
good for anyone. I mean.
You're speaking to the choir here.
I'm. Right, I'm like what?
But the fact that some of our biggest this venture capitalists
are absolutely funding this exercise and this part of this
to me is exactly why this is not just a feel good cultural
exercise. It is deeply economic, it is
deeply political and it cannot be disassociated from the fact
that there was an absolute agenda around what masculinity
and manhood should look like. I mean, one thing I'll say
though, is is masculinity, masculinity and manhood and the
expectations of that in society just now, like finally barely
beginning to catch up with the expectations of femininity and
womanhood because like you're saying like, oh, steroids are
bad for you. Well, duh.
But you know what's bad for you? Like getting your nails done and
getting gel nails every day of your life from the age of 4th
grade, spraying your hair with Hairspray, like using perfume.
Like all of those are all of those are poisonous, and women
do it every single day. What I will say is I think the,
what I'm always cautious of is like pointing a finger,
particularly at women, right? I like, I think that there are
specific beauty standards that women don't have the luxury of
being able to opt out of. I think what you know, like the
thesis I probably have on this is that this is probably the
first generation of men forced to navigate the type of self
hate and body dysmorphia that we've previously only ever
demanded of women. And so with that, I think you
kind of get all of these like sad senses of like what I'm
supposed to look like and who I'm supposed to be.
And in that you were sold all of these products in between the
commercial break about what you should be doing and how it
should look ultimately be, you know, a certain type of man.
Welcome to my life since I was 8 years old.
I mean, not to say I know it's like, you know, you don't want
to invite other people into your like, misery, but I don't know,
like you're upset. Am I?
I think you should be. I think that's the beauty,
right? Like if we are angry, we might
do something about it. Okay, right.
Like I think that anger is. A She ain't doing shit.
What are you doing to help the male loneliness epidemic?
I don't know. I'm waiting for Ron to give my.
Solution. Yeah, yeah.
But. I think anger is a useful,
necessary driving force of change.
If we are not angry about them as we should be, I don't think
that we feel nearly as motivated to actually go about fixing it.
I think it's really sad. I guess I just feel, I feel
empathy, like I think it's really sad that like anyone that
like women have been going through this for like such a
long time. And it's really sad that like
men, it's now much, much more public.
And I kind of am glad that it is because then we, I hope we can
address it as a whole is like my, my thing.
I just have empathy and, like, I don't think women should feel
bad about how they look, and I don't think men should feel bad
about how they look. And we're kind of at it like a
reckoning where it's like, yeah, now, like, men are, I guess,
victims of the patriarchy. And it's much more visible.
Men have always been victims of it, right?
That it's not as though it is. New.
And so if we really own the fact that like this is an ongoing
struggle that everyone from, you know, Judith Butler or Nikki
Giovanni, I've been talking about like there are books out
the wazoo about this. It's just that I think men are
having the ability to spread bad ideas a lot faster.
And so, you know, it's it's things are moving at the speed
of a click and so or clip. And so I think that, you know,
it's really important that the ways and the tools we have to
actually combat that meet them in those different mediums.
OK, well this might be a bit of a hot take, but I think that one
could argue that this evolution of the expectations that are now
placed on men in terms of like looks maxing and improving their
looks and being jacked and stuff, maybe that's actually a
sign of society progressing because now there's like more
equal expectations of men as there are of women historically.
I maybe I'd be, I'd be concerned about that to some degree
because I don't know that that's necessarily what we want.
I don't know if that's progress. I'll say it that way, OK?
I don't know that my dream is that women feel pressured to
optimize and aesthetize everything about their lives,
nor do I want that for men. Yeah, but I don't think that's
ever going to go away like it's been, you know?
Maybe, but I think that, you know, if if we do it right,
right, if we really are pushing for something, maybe the point
is like, how do we actually push towards a kind of acceptance of
like graceful aging, right? How do we accept people who
operate without makeup? How do we put a kind of
appreciation of like the simplicity and the like quality
of who you are as you are in its most physical and honest sense?
I agree with you that in an ideal world, nobody has the
expectation of wearing makeup. Everyone can show up as they
are, feel beautiful, feel confident, contribute to society
with their unique gifts, etcetera.
However, I do not think that that is a reality that will
happen for women in our lifetime or even in another lifetime
beyond this. I don't think that expectation
of women having to wear makeup for example, is going to go
away. And I only think it's the fact
that now that these expectations are placed on men, that is the
actual the only possible teeny, teeny tiny hope speck of a hope
of, of us being able to move to a society that is like, I guess
you could call it like post looks.
Do you know what I mean? Like it's only because men now
feel that same pain, like a fraction of a percent, that
society can maybe shift. Well, that's kind of what they
say. It's like if men had periods,
then we would all have pads. Pads and tampons would be free.
Yeah. There wouldn't be a pink tax.
But I think what I would say from that, I think is there was
this idea maybe that what we really should aspire to is a
kind of spectrum of gender performance, one where the boys
can wear makeup and paint their nails and that be just as good
to show up that way. And you know, my grandma doesn't
have to wear or feel she needs to wear heels to come to walk
outside to show up to an event. And that is the thing that I
think that if we get there where both sides of that spectrum are
both equal and valid and beautiful, I think that that's
the world that I believe we can reach in this lifetime.
Or at least I think it's one worth fighting for in this
lifetime. I don't believe that my kids
should be the only people or my grandkids should be the only
people that get to benefit from. That not grandma, OK, Ron, I
think you are a very uniquely progressive individual in my
mind. Which is why we're friends.
Yeah, that's true. I mean, if we had a world full
of Ron's. The world would be a better.
Place that would be incredible, but I am very curious like what
is your take on on kind of this entire conversation but applied
to like dating, for example, and do you think like your take is
similar to your guy friends or like you know the the ecosystem
of men? I think it is Hard Out Here.
I am in the streets and so anybody watch?
Let's put his handle up on on the screen.
His DMS are open, yes. Always please shoot shots.
So I think it is Hard Out Here, right?
Like the research would say that for every woman on any of these
dating platforms, the hinges, the Tinders, the Bumbles,
whatever, there are two men. So it's that 2 for one, right?
So knowing that in that way, I think this is exactly what fits
into this kind of logic around red Pilling or black Pilling,
IE, is it even worth trying to go out there and date is because
I think that you might say that there's an algorithmic approach
to this. If a platform, a dating app says
the only way that you're really going to get seen is if you just
pay like 30 bucks a month and then we'll show you to more
people, they have no incentive for you to leave because next
month it's not $30. And so I absolutely feel as
though there is one big conspiracy out there that is
absolutely benefiting from people being unhappy,
unsatisfied, and unconnected or disconnected from intimacy.
Because then you don't get to play these really silly games
around finding partnership and connection.
So you think the male loneliness epidemic is due to capitalism?
Yes, there was an economy for this.
And so there is no way to not look at the balance sheets of
some of the largest companies on earth that ask, hey, how
convenient is it that I'm a little less happy and that you
are the ones selling me happiness.
OK, so let's let's move into the solution space.
Not all, not all like doom and gloom.
Well, I think it's interesting because we gave it the context
and now we can talk about like, so now what?
Like what can we do? What can women do?
What can men do? And what can society do as a
whole to move us forward out of the space that we're not happy
about? I think that from maybe what men
can do most immediately, I will offer some things that feel very
hand WAVY, but I do think are actually honest ways to appraise
gender, which I think we probably as men need to do a
better job of like reading feminist literature, right?
Like, I think that I know that sounds like the most obvious
thing, but like reading that doesn't.
Sound that obvious? I'm happy about that.
But like reading feminist theory and, and, and just getting some
baseline understanding of what the imagination for a world
where women are equal and where women are actually not the
objects of sex, but simply are people who are building
community and building progress with you is probably the best
thing that we could just start with is just opening up your,
you know, view and your lens on that.
Is there like a starter text you might recommend I?
Will recommend some things in the notes cuz I think you know
it's like it's. You've got a lot.
We'll have a kit for you, a kit for all the men.
I love that maybe like we can all we'll take a look.
But like books and blogs and like other.
Think about we talked a little like like volunteering and I
think that it is a really useful way to think about how you as a
man might be able to volunteer in certain ways and participate
like how you how can you leverage some of the
physiological elements of manhood to to volunteer.
I will give some examples for me.
I remember during the pandemic, I, I took all of my PTO and on
Fridays at 1:00, I would take off and go work at a food bank
because during the pandemic, if you remember, no one was going
into these spaces because you were afraid of being near like a
homeless person that spent all time outside.
And so the idea that I could use my body and lift heavy bags up
and down, walking up stairs or breaking down boxes because
that's physically something that I had.
But I also, I was alone because when I went home, there wasn't
anyone to, you know, have dinner with or there wasn't anyone that
was going to be on the other side of that table.
But it was a way for me to feel deeply connected to my community
and be of service. I think that finding service is
a way to find purpose. And I think a lot of men are
often lacking is a sense of purpose.
And that is a way to actually really connect your sense of
man, manliness and manhood to that.
So maybe it's like men who are part of the male loneliness
epidemic feel purposeless and they need to find a service or a
way to dedicate their time and energy to, but should be very,
very intentional and careful about what that service is and
if it actually is of service to our community and progressing
the good of the world. I agree.
I think that these men, in a lot of ways, are ripe for
exploitation. And so if we embrace that, then
we will enter into that with a lot more care and a lot more
capacity to say, hey, you know what, you can be a victim.
And so it's actually important for me to intervene in that
potential victimization. I don't think they love hearing
that though, like you like, so I'm like, hey, come volunteer
with me on Saturdays for reading for kids.
Reading to young elementary school kids.
This is a A cause worth investing in and finding purpose
in. Yeah, I mean, and, and once
again, maybe it is in trying to find ways that are particularly
quote UN quote manly. I think that group therapy is a
great opportunity to escape the loneliness.
I mean, the boys are spending time having AI girlfriends where
they are talking to the system that is sycophantic by nature,
right. And so being able to say, look,
let's actually go out and commiserate together for a
moment. And maybe not as a way to pile
on women, but to really access this in a way that is really
community based. I think what you all are doing
is a form of group therapy, right, With between sisters, but
hopefully also with an audience. And so I think that there's
something that we all have a responsibility to, which is to
open up our doors and our and our minds to these ideas of, of
where we can do better. Yeah, I love that.
And So what can women or society be doing specifically to help
out? Women are perfect.
They can. Do the wrong and again his his
Instagram handle is yes. Yes, yes.
What can women do? I think that women can challenge
their partners to have a more diverse emotional portfolio.
So I think that where and I think that's something that
exists independent of whether or not that relationship survives.
The idea that men often times are really leaning on women to
help them actually feel a sense of connection and feel a sense
of purpose is both disappointing and also it is a kind of doom
loop in its own right. Because if it doesn't work out
or if you're not available, I think that that's a really
important to go to and say like, hey, like my responsibility is
to both challenge you and to let you know that you have the
capacity for this thing to be a very interconnected person.
In that way. I think it's also where women
can safely it's always the optimal thing is to be able to
create friendships with men and to be visible about the fact
that there's a lot of utility in non sexual, non performative
relationships. That give men the space and the
opportunity to understand what women are thinking and why their
lives and why their experiences are just as hard as the guys on
the other side, who often times feel as though they're dealing
with something completely in silence.
I think like bringing it back to the beginning of the episode and
kind of why we decided to tackle this topic is that our thesis is
that, you know, the male loneliness epidemic is not just
a problem for men, right? It's a problem for women.
It's a problem for all of society.
It's something that we can all contribute to in a positive way.
So I think, like Cherie, what are some of your takeaways from
this episode? Yeah.
I think Ron in in speaking with you and hearing more about your
points, I've gained a new maybe appreciation or empathy for the
men who are kind of like brought into who are maybe opting in,
but also like kind of victim of this situation.
And I think as we talked about before, like empathy is not a
finite resource. I think in order to make
progress on this problem, like we have to feel deep empathy.
And I think it's actually really sad, Like the stats we read in
the beginning of like male loneliness, men feeling
disconnected, men feeling like they don't have like a close
person in their life. Like that's actually deeply,
deeply sad. And it's not like I'm wishing
that upon anyone. Like I don't think women should
feel that loneliness. I don't think men should feel
that loneliness. So I think it is empathy,
learning to have that empathy so we can make progress.
I mean, one thing I'm proud of like us for doing is even just
having this conversation, right? It's like that's the idea of you
can't progress on a problem and try to move towards the solution
unless you name the problem and then you discuss it and then you
put it out there in the world. So like I'm proud of us for
tackling what is actually like a pretty complex topic to to talk
through. And again, we have never done
this before. So we are really in my mind,
we're like really putting, putting ourselves out there in a
big way. And like I've never done this
before. So like we would love to know
what you guys think, right? Like the reason we're doing this
is because we want to invite this dialogue.
We want to hear what you guys are are thinking and your
reactions. Do you?
Agree. Do you disagree?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are a lot of
thoughts that we put out there, yeah.
And I guess I'll, I'll finish up on saying that like, I loved
your suggestion, Ron, about like what we can do about this male
loneliness epidemic for me, like building deeper relationships
with the men in my life and just talking more about this.
Like, are you lonely? Like, how is it going in the
dating world? Like I think often times men are
not invited to have those conversations and can feel like
it's a very like insular problem.
They don't have anyone else to tell.
Like, are they going through therapy?
Is it stigmatized? Like I'm thinking about the male
friendships I have in my life that are platonic.
And I want to invite more of those conversations because I
think they are open to talking about it and making sure that
they feel like there is a place to speak on it.
I hope that people maybe after leaving this, feel less shame
about these ideas and these moments of loneliness.
That it is both a reality and that it is also something that
can be navigated and like moved through.
That it is, you know, something that is not a permanent fixture
of life, is not immutable. You can absolutely extend and
exist beyond that. I think the thing that I would
love to also like kind of leave people with is just the idea
that that there are no silver bullets, but there are Silver
Linings. And what I mean by that is that
there are no quick fixes. There is no singular one thing
that can be sold to you today or tomorrow or in between the ad
break. And in knowing that you might be
willing to invest in more structural solutions, that if we
escape the idea of alienation or loneliness and talk about it as
alienation, we are more willing to actually think about and own
the process of progress and how we all get to play a part in
that. Wow.
Thank you. I mean, I think we should just
leave it at that. Awesome.
Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much.
This. Is incredible and thank you guys
Tiger fam for tuning in. We'll see you next time bye.
Please double check that you're subscribed to Tiger Sisters on
YouTube and following Tiger Sisters Podcast on Spotify and
Apple Podcasts. Subscribing and following are
completely free and are genuinely so important for the
survival of Tiger Sisters. It helps us keep making the
show, improving it and growing it so we can reach and help more
people. And if you're already
subscribed, thank you, truly. It means you're not just
watching this episode, you're part of this community and
you're part of this journey with us.
We don't take that lightly and we are so grateful that you're
here.