1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,560 My loneliness is killing. Me. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,039 So you think the male loneliness epidemic is due to capitalism? 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:09,760 Yes, there's an economy for this. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,360 This is probably the first generation of men forced to 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,960 navigate the type of self hate and body dysmorphia that we've 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,480 previously only ever demanded of women. 7 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,120 That's not good for men, it's not good for women, it's not 8 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:22,960 good for anyone. It's not good for children. 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,040 It's not. Good for dogs, it's not good for 10 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:26,720 cats. Instead of gaming, how about 11 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,240 pottery? Instead of. 12 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:29,800 Pornography. How about? 13 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:31,800 Gardening. Let us know in the comments if 14 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,400 you want to see us go undercover. 15 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,560 As a lonely man, you can't progress on a problem and try to 16 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,640 move towards a solution unless you name the problem and then 17 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,000 you discuss it and then you put it out there in the world. 18 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,480 There are no silver bullets, but there are Silver Linings. 19 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,640 And what I mean by that is that there are no quick fixes. 20 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,840 So like, I'm proud of us for tackling what is actually like a 21 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,680 pretty complex topic. I must confess I still believe, 22 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,800 Still believe. I'm Cherie, I'm Jean, and we're 23 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,840 the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and 24 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,120 Silicon Valley Big Sisters. And we're a top ten business 25 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,400 podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom 26 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,160 strategy. Hey guys, we really need to talk 27 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:14,800 about the male loneliness epidemic. 28 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,600 Is it actually an epidemic? I mean, I'm pretty sure it is, 29 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,160 this is the first of a series that we're doing where we're 30 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,760 doing kind of this like cultural investigation episode where we 31 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,920 talk about this cultural touch point and we really get into it 32 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,280 with lots of facts and figures, but also a real life male 33 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,200 correspondent coming your way. Yes. 34 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,960 And so today in this episode, we're going to be doing three 35 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:38,680 things. Number one, we're going to 36 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,600 examine the rise in loneliness across the board #2 we're going 37 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,480 to hone in specifically on cultural touch points that 38 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,840 explore male loneliness in the most recent years. 39 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,160 And #3 the thing that I'm most excited for, we're going to sit 40 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,000 down with a real life man. My friend Ron Busby is going to 41 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,960 share some of his experiences and thoughts on this topic. 42 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,720 By the end, to wrap it all up, we're going to have some key 43 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,200 takeaways that are things that people can do, both men and 44 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,920 women, to address male loneliness so that we can all 45 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,479 live in a happier and more connected world together. 46 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,134 Today's episode is presented by Sofi, the All in 47 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,520 No one really knows me. That actually kind of breaks my 48 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,840 heart. It's like low key, so sad. 49 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,480 It's really sad. Not a single person. 50 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,240 OK, well this next stat is even sadder. 51 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,120 The research in the Survey Center on American Life found 52 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,960 that 15% of men claim that they have no close friends. 53 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,120 Should we actually be worried about this? 54 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,200 Yeah, I mean, I understand why people are calling it an 55 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,160 epidemic. So can you please help us define 56 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,000 what an epidemic actually means? Yes, OK, so according to Oxford, 57 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,800 an epidemic is a rapid spread of a disease affecting a large 58 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,240 number of people in a community or region, far exceeding what's 59 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,800 normally expected. So it's basically somewhere 60 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,080 between an outbreak and a pandemic. 61 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,240 I think this is actually the main thesis of this entire 62 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,720 episode, which is how something that's called the male 63 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,200 loneliness epidemic is something that has become everyone's 64 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,040 problem in society. I'm excited to leave this 65 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,680 episode on a very positive note because like throughout, you're 66 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,280 going to notice there are some, like, pretty bleak statistics. 67 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,800 Yeah, but there are like, really good outcomes if we work 68 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,240 together on this. And I'm not saying we're going 69 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,000 to solve male loneliness in the next like 30 minutes to an hour. 70 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,000 But I think as long as like, we're having more of a 71 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,880 discussion on it, we're able to break it down for people so that 72 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,680 it's more understandable. It's not something that we 73 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,760 should be afraid of, but it's something that we should just 74 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,960 continue to have more conversation around. 75 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,520 Exactly. And the first way you can 76 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,080 address a problem or first way to solve a problem is to name it 77 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,520 and address it, which is what we're going to do today. 78 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,000 I think first let's break down the concept of loneliness and 79 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,000 even the idea of male loneliness. 80 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,520 Like, why is that such a term in culture today? 81 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,760 And do men experience loneliness in a way that's different than 82 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,200 the way women experience it? Yeah, it's really interesting 83 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,560 that it's like marketed this way because isn't everyone lonely? 84 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,600 There's just like a loneliness epidemic in general, because 85 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,240 before it was reported by the CDC coming out of the pandemic, 86 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,880 that in 2023, there was just like rising levels of loneliness 87 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,480 across the board. Yeah, I mean, I am, I 88 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,040 experienced that. I must say, I think a lot of 89 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,760 people were really lonely during the pandemic. 90 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,240 Yeah. And that's why people were, 91 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,640 like, drinking so much wine. I think another thing that 92 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,920 happened during the pandemic is that everyone got used to being 93 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,560 so like online and remember like the online happy hours that you 94 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,240 would have after work. Like a Zoom call at like 4:00 PM 95 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,600 on a Friday and you're like, please let me leave. 96 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,320 I don't want. To leave because I cannot show. 97 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,280 I can't show my face on the screen anymore. 98 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:54,920 Well, I don't even want to look at a screen anymore. 99 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,520 So, yeah, but so there a lot of studies on that now. 100 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,480 So there's this 2024 study from Harvard that showed that 73% of 101 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,480 people say loneliness is because of technology. 102 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,120 Yeah, I think there's also this concept of, like, social 103 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,160 snacking where, like, you are on your phone all the time. 104 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,440 You're scrolling through things. You might feel like you're 105 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,880 watching people's stories and you're like, oh, I kind of know 106 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,720 them, but like, you're not actually interacting with them 107 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:18,800 in real life. But I'm like, oh, I know 108 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,400 everything about what they're doing day-to-day. 109 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,520 It's this like weird parasocial thing that happens now on social 110 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:25,240 media. Right. 111 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,760 But you're not actually getting any real life synchronous 112 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,680 connection with people where you're like exchanging energy 113 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,200 and atoms and like, you know, resolving the loneliness, 114 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,760 quality time. Yeah, yeah, there is no quality 115 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,000 time on social media with another person, I feel like. 116 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,160 Yeah. So I think that's why it's 117 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,200 called like social snacking. It's like you're just getting 118 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,920 these little nibbles or like niblets of social interaction 119 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,520 throughout the day, but it doesn't actually add up to a 120 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,240 full meal. Like you're never actually going 121 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,800 to be full from it. Yikes. 122 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,360 And to top it all off, The Economist had an article come 123 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,760 out in 2025 that highlighted declining marriage rates due to 124 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,680 a gap in higher education and economic independence, 125 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,040 especially among women, and digital life replacing physical 126 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,520 life. Yeah, this is a great sort of 127 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,440 like precursor to our next episode, where we're going to 128 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,120 talk about this whole entire concept of how women are now 129 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,480 choosing to be single because they don't want to marry down. 130 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,000 Yeah, so check out our Galantine's Day episode coming 131 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,640 next week. Not too much away, Not where we 132 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,600 talk more about this. So I think like all these stats 133 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,160 are helpful to sort of set the stage, but also I want people to 134 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,600 know that like, you don't have to feel depressed about it, 135 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,680 right? Like, I think we're doing the 136 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:41,600 right thing here. We're. 137 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,640 Doing the work. Yeah, we're doing the work in 138 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,360 actually naming it. And once we name it and we talk 139 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,240 about it, then we can actually, you know, work to solve it. 140 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,480 So I think like another person who's done a really good job of 141 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,720 bringing it to light is actually Scott Galloway. 142 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,640 Yeah, he recently had a conversation, I think it was in 143 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,680 December of last year with Oprah, and it was super eye 144 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,720 opening because they talk about the rising levels of loneliness, 145 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,840 disconnection and emotional suppression. 146 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,960 The reality is men need relationships much more than 147 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,400 women. The statistics are pretty stark. 148 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,960 If you walk into a morgue and there's five people who've died 149 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,480 by suicide, four men. I'm in marketing. 150 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,440 We used to think that it was sex that sells. 151 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,720 Then the algorithms found something that sells even more 152 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,600 in terms of gluing you to a screen, and that is rage. 153 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,320 I mean, I don't necessarily agree with everything Scott 154 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,080 Galloway says, but I think it's important to have a man, 155 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,760 especially a man that like other men are looking up to, that's 156 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,640 not part of the manosphere. And we'll get into that. 157 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,760 But like, they see another man being vulnerable and talking 158 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,240 about this, and I think that's also making a step in the right 159 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,720 direction. I think a really important thing 160 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,080 that Scott Galloway called out in his episode was the fact that 161 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,360 for men in society, especially Western society, the most 162 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,920 socially acceptable form of expressing dissatisfaction or 163 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,120 unhappiness is anger. Yeah, that kind of perpetuates 164 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,600 in a lot of different ways. Well, I think it's just like men 165 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,320 can feel complex emotions, but the way that it's outwardly 166 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,960 expressed is through anger, sadness, loneliness, like these 167 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,280 other emotions, you know, there's many more of them, but 168 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,480 they all kind of like funnel into like, oh, like Hulk smash. 169 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,800 And that's exactly why male loneliness is a public problem. 170 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,080 It's like, that's why it's actually a public health 171 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:27,560 problem. That's why it's everyone's 172 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,840 problem. Because the way that men sort of 173 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,120 like metabolize loneliness, metabolize dissatisfaction, 174 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,400 metabolize depression is outward anger. 175 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,440 As opposed to, I think the way that women are socialized, the 176 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,559 way that we've grown up our entire lives is to sort of like 177 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,800 push it down, not make other people uncomfortable when we're 178 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,960 uncomfortable, right? Like we're always reading the 179 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,760 room. We're always being like, is 180 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:55,440 everyone else OK? Like we are trained to like, sit 181 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,320 on our emotions. And it's like a more of a 182 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,320 private issue. Yes, it's a private issue. 183 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,840 I think that is the main difference is private versus 184 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,960 public expressions. Yeah, it's interesting because 185 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,920 like this problem, it's like very circular because I think 186 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,200 like men are taught not to show a multitude of emotions by this, 187 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,640 by society, you know, they're like, look, it's looked down 188 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,360 upon. And because of that, they're 189 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,120 like bottling everything up and then it explodes into anger. 190 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,240 It's just like this reinforcing loop that's not good for men, 191 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,160 it's not good for women, it's not good for anyone. 192 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,200 It's not good for children, it's not good for dogs, it's not good 193 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,280 for. Cats, it's bad for everyone. 194 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,240 It's bad for all around. It's like a reinforced thing in 195 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,360 society too, because I think a lot of men are facing their 196 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,120 emotions by bottling it up. Whereas like women in society 197 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,440 have other women to lean on. It's like the male loneliness. 198 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:48,520 They're lonely because they can't talk to anyone about their 199 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,080 feelings because then once they do, they become vulnerable and 200 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:52,440 they open up and that's not accepted. 201 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,320 So it's like women have, I mean cry alone when they're sad or 202 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,320 depressed in. Private commiserate in bathrooms 203 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,480 Together bathrooms. Or like they have a stronger 204 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:09,080 friend group that they can rely on and, you know, vent with in 205 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,040 like a healthy way. There's this 2025 article in the 206 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,240 American Institute for Boys and Men, founded by Richard Reeves, 207 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,280 where they found that many men are withdrawing instead of 208 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,600 trying harder and trying to actually engage in society. 209 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,920 So what they're doing is they're going on less dates, they're 210 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,720 having less sex, they are spending more time on solitary 211 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,960 activities. So that's gaming, that's 212 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,000 streaming, that's watching pornography, that's creating 213 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,160 online communities that are. Harmful. 214 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,560 Harmful and like, not so savory. I mean, instead of gaming, how 215 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:45,640 about pottery? Instead of. 216 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,080 Pornography. How about gardening? 217 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,120 What about being one with the earth? 218 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,400 You know, sowing some seeds? Oh my God, in the actual 219 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,840 physical garden. She wants you to go and touch 220 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,720 grass, like or touch clay. Yes, basically, sure. 221 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,360 He's like touch one of two things, grass or clay. 222 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,440 The one with the earth and she gets. 223 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,880 Some solved male loneliness like by the way, did I think she 224 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,640 solved? It did I go on a hike, get a 225 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,560 dog. I think these are these are 226 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:16,840 like. Legitimate suggestions. 227 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,920 These are just all things that Cherie enjoys doing. 228 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,280 Just like go for a swim in the morning. 229 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,400 Go for a morning swim in like a cold pool. 230 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,160 Seek therapy. Your vagus nerve. 231 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,440 Yeah, I I think all these things are really good. 232 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,280 Get a massage. What if we do the opposite? 233 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,880 What if, in in service of investigative journalism, we do 234 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,080 all these things true? What if we? 235 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,520 Yeah, yeah. And then I recommend them to all 236 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,200 the men out there who are. No, I'm saying what if we 237 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,680 stream, we game, we watch pornography. 238 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,640 No, I think I'd be sad if I did all those things, like 239 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,280 exclusively, you know what I mean? 240 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,000 Well, yeah, I mean, that's what this study found. 241 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:56,920 Yeah. So it's not good. 242 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,920 But you could prove it by trying it. 243 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,360 No, thank you. Pass Let us know in the comments 244 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,040 if you want to see us go undercover as a lonely man. 245 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,560 If you were a real journalist, you would do it if you were a 246 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:10,560 real investigative journalist. That's true. 247 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:13,240 I am not a real investigative I. Challenge you? 248 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:16,720 Okay, well one more thing I think is very interesting is 249 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,480 that obviously we've brought a ton of stats and studies and 250 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:25,000 research into it, but even the concept of loneliness itself is 251 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,960 very internal and it's all very like self reported. 252 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,640 So we're still relying on men even recognizing that they're 253 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,920 lonely, which I suspect it's still heavily under reported. 254 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,840 Yeah, because that's not something you want to admit to 255 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,920 yourself. Yeah, like even I'm not a man, 256 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,560 I'm a woman. But I in times when I've been 257 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,120 lonely, like you don't want to admit it. 258 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,120 It's sad. It like makes you even more 259 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,360 lonely to to admit that you're lonely. 260 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:50,880 It's like, right. I'm so lonely. 261 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:52,720 Wait. That's like the saddest thing 262 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,000 ever to be like I'm lonely. Well, I actually a couple months 263 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,640 ago, like in 2025, remember, I had like a lonely face. 264 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,120 Yeah. And then I had like, this was a 265 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:02,840 real thing. Where? 266 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,080 Like and then I felt bad because like she was living with me. 267 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,400 I'm like, why you lonely? Like we're, we're hanging out 268 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,080 like all the time. Well, it wasn't. 269 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:10,400 It's not like you're, it's your fault. 270 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:11,960 It was something I was feeling internally. 271 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:13,080 I know, but I felt bad. Too. 272 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,120 You're such an empath and. You don't. 273 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,360 Need to. Be I have problems. 274 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,480 But I think the thing that that I was dealing with was that 275 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,640 like, there's a difference between feeling lonely and just 276 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,200 being alone. Like you can be alone without 277 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,240 being for sure, which is something that like towards the 278 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,360 end of last year, I felt like I was hanging out with my sister 279 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,320 for work, my like one really good friend in LA. 280 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,280 And then my boyfriend and I was just like, where are my other 281 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:38,840 friend? Like I was just so concentrated 282 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,040 on like, those three relationships that I felt I felt 283 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,880 lonely because like, I think I'm used to like, just being around 284 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,200 a lot of people all the time. Yeah. 285 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,840 But I was like hyper focused on just like work stuff. 286 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,360 So that consumed a lot of my life. 287 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,880 Yeah. And so it's balancing loneliness 288 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,680 versus alone with a heart around it. 289 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,160 Yeah. I mean, I think actually you are 290 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,160 really, really good at being alone in a healthy way. 291 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,520 So like, you're one of the first people that I knew that was 292 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,600 going to see movies by yourself because you thought it was fun. 293 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,480 Yeah, you. This was like groundbreaking. 294 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:10,560 It was like groundbreaking to me. 295 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:13,600 Wait guys, I did it for the first time ever this year in 296 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,880 2026. She went to the movie theater by 297 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,000 herself. By myself and it was so fun. 298 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,360 Can we do a breaking news banner and some like news music 299 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,920 breaking news woman goes to the movies alone by herself for the 300 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:26,440 first. Time, yeah. 301 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,600 I mean, you were out of town, you were skiing. 302 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,880 So I was like, I guess I'll go by myself. 303 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,560 I actually. Feel like this is like a pretty 304 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,680 new phenomenon, just like in culture, like taking yourself 305 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,640 out because I see it on TikTok like a girl's like, Oh my God, 306 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,640 like this is a huge milestone. And it is. 307 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,120 I've just been doing it for a couple. 308 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,440 Years. She's writing so low, Writing so 309 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,440 low. Jason Derülo, like you said, 310 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,600 solo dinner and the song was playing in my head. 311 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,120 Really, it's fun. You can like bring a book, bring 312 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,360 your Kindle and then just enjoy you time, get whatever you want. 313 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,280 You don't have to compromise like we're not sharing apps. 314 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,440 All these apps are for me. So get whatever you want. 315 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,960 It's like really refreshing. Solo dolo? 316 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,920 Solo dolo. So I guess you're not lonely 317 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,200 anymore. Anymore. 318 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,360 But back to this idea of lonely men. 319 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,720 So have you ever been affected by a lonely man? 320 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,040 Yeah. So in my early 20s, I dated this 321 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:22,280 guy and very early on I realized that he didn't have many close 322 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,880 guy friends or girlfriends for that matter. 323 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,680 Also, I guess he didn't really have that many friends, period. 324 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,360 But very interestingly, I introduced him to my group of 325 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,320 guy friends, my group of friends and the guys that he met. 326 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,880 And it was uncomfortable and my guy friends later told me that 327 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,680 like it was just really weird because there's the guy I was 328 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,360 dating had like an alpha energy. He like couldn't really connect 329 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,520 with my guy friends. He was trying to like one up 330 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,680 them or kind of put them down. It like just wasn't like a fit 331 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,880 for personality, which is weird because like I like the guy I 332 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,480 was dating and I also like my guy friends. 333 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,080 So I thought they would be able to get along. 334 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,920 So it was very odd that there was this like macho energy. 335 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,520 Machismo. Machismo energy, yeah. 336 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,040 So I don't know. I've like seen it up close that 337 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,120 like he didn't really have that many friends and wasn't able to 338 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,160 form that connection. And like, did you see some of 339 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,920 these other symptoms? Like, you felt like you had to 340 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,760 be the 1:00 to, I don't know, like initiate conversations 341 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,320 about, like, how are you feeling? 342 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,600 Like, you seem like, yeah, he was kind of repressed. 343 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,880 You had a bad day like. He was definitely avoidant, OK, 344 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,920 and I was definitely anxious in my early 20s. 345 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,240 So anxious plus avoidant is not a good combo for two people to 346 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,280 be dating in your early 20s when we're still developing our 347 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,720 prefrontal cortex. But also he was like very 348 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,080 repressed. Like I think he he went inward a 349 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,480 lot. There was a lot of gaming and a 350 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,560 lot of streaming. Interesting. 351 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,000 That's why I was gonna ask. Interestingly, OK, I didn't 352 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,760 actually put that together until like, we're kind of talking 353 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,200 about it. Yeah, but he did game a bit and 354 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,000 like have I think a lot of his internal stuff going on. 355 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Well, thank you for sharing. I think that's really 356 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,359 interesting to have like your account of your experience of it 357 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,480 and I also think it is the perfect time to bring on our 358 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,560 male correspondent. A real life man, a real life 359 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,200 man, my friend Ron Busby. And we'll get into the 360 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,599 conversation with Ron right after this break. 361 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,359 So you know how every year I have a New Year's resolution 362 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,040 around finances? Oh, I have one too for 2026. 363 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,119 New year, new opportunity to get our money right. 364 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,880 And part of that is having a bank that isn't just a place to 365 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,000 park our cash, but something that actually works for us. 366 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,360 Exactly. And that's where our sponsor, 367 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,280 Sofi Plus comes in. Sofi Plus is a premium 368 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,640 membership that pulls everything together, banking, investing and 369 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,760 financial planning all in one. Place with qualifying activities 370 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,520 Sofi Plus members can unlock $1000 or more in annual value. 371 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,840 That value comes from things like 5% cash back at grocery 372 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,680 stores or an investment match for your IRA. 373 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,680 Oh, my favorite one is the unlimited one-on-one sessions 374 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,400 with Sofi Wealth Financial planners. 375 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,200 Sofi Plus is a great way to get more for your money and you can 376 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:05,880 get started for just $10 a month. 377 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,240 Go to sofi.com/tiger plusthatssofi.com/tigerplus. 378 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:17,400 And now back to our show. We're really excited because 379 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,440 this is our male correspondence section of the podcast, our 380 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,880 first ever, first ever. And we'd like to welcome Ron 381 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,600 Busby, who is my friend from college and also the Co founder 382 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,840 and head of product of Buy Black, which is a company that 383 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,400 helps and empowers black-owned businesses and business owners. 384 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,200 Thank you all so much for having me, I really appreciate it. 385 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,000 Yay welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast. 386 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,240 Happy. To be here was how do you say a 387 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:46,560 long time listener, first time caller. 388 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,440 Oh yeah, there you go. You ready to dive into the male 389 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,640 loneliness epidemic? Yes, you know, I'm looking 390 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,400 forward to unpacking this and I think entering the inner 391 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,360 recesses of the male mind. What could possibly be going on 392 00:18:58,360 --> 00:18:59,520 there? Yeah. 393 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,760 So, Ron, are you lonely? Starting off like that, yeah. 394 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,680 The real question is, when you hear the phrase like male 395 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,840 loneliness, as we've been talking about in this episode, 396 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,360 what parts resonate with your own lived experience and what 397 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,360 parts feel overstated or misunderstood? 398 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,520 Yeah. I mean, I think that in many 399 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,720 ways, yes, I I think we all naturally feel some degree of 400 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:23,720 loneliness. And I think it's really 401 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,560 important to own that and not pathologize it as something so 402 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,600 unique and only exclusive to men. 403 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,480 To your question around, you know, what does it mean and what 404 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,200 do I think about that? For me at least, when we talk 405 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,160 about male loneliness, what I'm more interested in is the idea 406 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,920 of like male alienation. And when we talk about it from 407 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,880 that idea, I think we're able to better point to who and what are 408 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,800 actually creating and facilitating that kind of 409 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,760 reality. That to me is way more dangerous 410 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,720 and pernicious, but it's actually more emblematic of what 411 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,400 is at the stakes for men today. Yeah, what? 412 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,280 You mean like self alienation? Male self alienation. 413 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,160 Funny enough, I I think it's more about what society and our 414 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,600 economy and what are. Our educational system are doing 415 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,440 to men and ultimately how that sort of creates these ripple 416 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,280 effects. And if we are able to have a 417 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,040 modicum a bit of like earnest empathy, then we actually may be 418 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,480 able to step outside of this idea of like, oh, it's it's a 419 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,040 male problem or it's a men's problem. 420 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,960 Rather than actually like we have a social media 421 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,640 infrastructure that is actually benefiting from us being on our 422 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,160 phones rather outside with each other. 423 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:33,440 And that actually then sort of double S down into all these 424 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:34,800 other realities that we're experiencing. 425 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,480 Yeah, I think it's a pretty bold take for you to say that society 426 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:46,560 is kind of causing this sort of male alienation crisis when we 427 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,760 live in a patriarchy. I And so I think the reality is 428 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,640 that, right, patriarchy impacts men as well. 429 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,480 And so the idea that men aren't victims is exactly what allows 430 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,000 us to create this binary, right? This conversation is inherently 431 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,920 very heteronormative. But like the idea that men are 432 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:09,480 also at risk of some sort of violence by the systems that 433 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,680 they've also created, it robs them of the agency and robs them 434 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,640 of the capacity to be empathetic individuals in this. 435 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,160 And so I think that's also what's really important. 436 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,280 Yeah, that's an interesting nuance, but I find it quite 437 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,120 frustrating. Slash, like, I don't know, like 438 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,040 my head is on fire in the sense that like women have been, I 439 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,760 don't know, like I don't even want to say victims, but like 440 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,640 the patriarchy has been inflicted onto them. 441 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,680 And like, for the first time in society, like in social times, I 442 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,320 feel like men are feeling like the patriarchy being inflicted 443 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,240 onto them and being like much more vocal about it because of 444 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,280 the male loneliness epidemic. Yeah, I mean, I think that 445 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,800 there's no doubt about it. Men are particularly lonely. 446 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,000 But, you know, I think there was this Pew study that came out of 447 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,680 2025 that said that 15% of women feel lonely all or some of the 448 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,640 time, but 16% of men feel all lonely all or, or most of the 449 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,560 time. And I think what's important is 450 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,120 actually realizing that we are all experiencing loneliness. 451 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,560 And the reality is it just happens to be, at least in my 452 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,240 perspective, is that it's just more dangerous when men are 453 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,960 lonely. OK, so Ron, what I'm hearing is 454 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,520 that there is a rising loneliness epidemic across the 455 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,600 field for both men and women, and perhaps it is more visible 456 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,880 for men, but let's dive into the definitions here. 457 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,960 I know one thing that we've seen is that the UN actually put 458 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,360 together a glossary of terms that are sort of in the male 459 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:37,880 loneliness slash manosphere world. 460 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,240 So we don't have to go by the, you know, UN definition. 461 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,600 But I would love to hear from you what are some sort of like 462 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:48,280 key terms that are in this sort of ecosystem and like how do you 463 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,120 define them? Yeah, I think one of them is 464 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,440 probably like manosphere, right? I think it's already kind of 465 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,680 come up. And I think Manosphere is this 466 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:03,400 conglomeration of media, websites, places that men, most 467 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,760 often digitally are talking about. 468 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,200 All these things are as relates to their own views and their own 469 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,760 skews around the economy, around diversity, around politics and 470 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,080 around dating. And so those things end up 471 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,360 having, I think often times a very like productized element, 472 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,880 right? So a podcast in between the ad 473 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,840 break is going to sell you the carnivore diet, or is going to 474 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,440 sell you the blue shoes and the pills for erectile dysfunction, 475 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,440 or is going to tell you that what you really need to do is 476 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,880 take more testosterone. And so the idea that actually 477 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,640 there is an infrastructure that both pirates and profiteers can 478 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,920 participate in, that push this kind of element, is really what 479 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,000 fuels an economy of the manosphere. 480 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,120 I'm like so terrified of that because it becomes this like 481 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,520 really scary echo chamber where it's like, it's the manosphere 482 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,160 and like the ads that you're seeing, the guests, the voices. 483 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,880 When you say diversity, I'm like thinking in my head. 484 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,800 I'm like, diversity of what? Like of what guests are they 485 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,840 having? Like literally height or like 486 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,240 beard or no beard. I think that's about right. 487 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,000 I mean, and the, I think recognizing that there is a 488 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,840 language that we are maybe not a part of as much. 489 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,240 And when I say we, I probably am more adjacent to it than most 490 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,440 just by virtue of gender. But like knowing that there are 491 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,960 worlds that you just can't access and because of that you 492 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,360 actually may not understand or appreciate how insular it is. 493 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:35,840 It does sort of create a a spiral effect downwards 494 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,120 sometimes. Well, I think nowadays too, like 495 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,920 the manosphere and outside of the manosphere, like everyone 496 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,120 has their own algorithm. So when you are a part of the 497 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:46,840 manosphere, you just go deeper and deeper into that hole or 498 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,920 like, you know, whatever you're into, you just are in that 499 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,600 vertical and like what you're watching is not what other 500 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,480 people are watching. I mean what I'll even add to 501 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,160 that is you know, I was having a conversation with my 10 year old 502 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,880 cousin and we were joking about what chads were and what giga 503 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,960 chads were and what looks maxing was. 504 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,160 Let's. Go into this. 505 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:10,160 You know, the idea that he gets it almost in an ambient way, he 506 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,120 understands what this is. He may not necessarily buy into 507 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:14,480 this. He's not necessarily looking to 508 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,520 neg women, but like he understands that some level what 509 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,120 the language is. And so knowing that that 510 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,960 actually means that he is more primed to be able to both 511 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,560 negotiate and navigate what other men are talking about is 512 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,480 concerning. And I know we we kind of have 513 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,680 pointed at this, but the idea that in cell culture has just 514 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,120 sort of really become a layer on top of the way that we talk 515 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:43,880 about all of this. I want to say it's even like 4B 516 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,840 is the language when you talk about like, you know, women in 517 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,840 terms of this, but the idea that. 518 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,800 I'm not familiar with 4B. It's this like Korean movement 519 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,400 where women are saying that they are not going to have children 520 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,320 anymore because they want to opt out of basically the patriarchy 521 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:57,960 and like the expectations put on them. 522 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,520 But so I think the idea that in cell culture as it particularly 523 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,480 is relevant to men, but like the fact that me and a 10 year old 524 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,440 20 years apart can be connected to some degree in our 525 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:16,960 conversations about mewing and, you know, mogging is really, it 526 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,360 almost feels like a foreign language when I'm right next to 527 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,000 his mother and she's trying to understand like, what part of 528 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,480 the world is he on? And it's like, oh, like, maybe 529 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,280 we need to get off of video games or maybe we need to not 530 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,760 be, I don't know, streaming on Twitch. 531 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,880 And I think the reality is that there are a lot of people who 532 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,520 are actually doing a great job of meeting people where they 533 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,280 are, meeting them in the mediums that there are in and to 534 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,920 actually demand maybe a different perspective to some 535 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,240 degree. Letting those men and letting 536 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,400 those faces only operate and exist for a certain type of 537 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,040 politic and idea can only allow it to fester as well. 538 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:51,520 OK, so I agree with your concept, but when you said it, I 539 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,640 definitely bristled because I was like, OK, like, why do we 540 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,320 have to do this? Just because that men are having 541 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,120 these sort of like dangerous conversations in these spaces? 542 00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:01,720 Like, why do we have to go into these spaces and insert 543 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,480 ourselves? Because it's never happened for 544 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,160 women, right? Like in society, it's not like 545 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,480 when women are sad and depressed or lonely. 546 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,760 There's no, there hasn't been an effort to do the same thing, to 547 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,720 like enter women's spaces and like help women that way. 548 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,000 Not that you know. I know you don't represent all 549 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,280 men, but you are a male correspondent and you did 550 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,280 propose that as a solution. And so I would say this, I don't 551 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,440 think that this is the responsibility of and I put this 552 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,520 like air quotes of women to solve exclusively or even in any 553 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,200 majority way, right? I'm not necessarily looking and 554 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,480 pointing a finger and saying, you know what the problem is? 555 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,920 You're not on Twitch right now live, you know, talking to the 556 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,200 boys. That's not I'm not demanding 557 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,520 that. I think what I'm also saying is 558 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,800 that it's going to any real progress is going to really 559 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,960 require a deeply inclusive strategy on how we actually push 560 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,160 this agenda forward. And I think that there it's much 561 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,880 easier to be austere and say, hey, you know, we don't want to 562 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,080 practice a politic of purity. Hey, this is the way that it 563 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,440 gets done. Anything that's not in that is 564 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,920 actually not worthy of my time. And the reality is that these 565 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,160 conversations are happening. And so whether it's me or my 566 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,640 friends or whatnot, we owe it to ourselves to actually extend an 567 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,960 olive branch and bring those men in because we know that, you 568 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,400 know, male loneliness, right? Men are 3 * 3 or 4 times more 569 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,440 likely to commit suicide, right? So the reality is the mass 570 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,680 violence, the, the shootings, the, the people who are most at 571 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,920 risk of the downstream impacts of loneliness can't afford for 572 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,080 me to be like, oh, like, it's not my problem. 573 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,640 It's, it's, it's not where I personally want to be. 574 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,920 I think that's really important in that regard. 575 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,800 And then just to put a point on it, would you say that the 576 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,440 prevailing cultural force like is the manosphere, is that the 577 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,880 majority? And we're just like, so stuck in 578 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,680 our ivory towers that we have no concept of it. 579 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,960 I absolutely don't think that the manosphere is some sort of 580 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,000 dark horse in all of our politics that somehow is 581 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,320 operating at some cabal level. That is, you know, the, the, the 582 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,920 new Illuminati of like the way that we exist. 583 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,480 What I do think is that we probably are not doing enough to 584 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,120 really own and accept how important it is to bring men 585 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,480 into progressive agendas. Well, so Ron, before you 586 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,000 mentioned some vocab words and I kind of want to get into some 587 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,640 definitions, you said Chad giga, Chad mewing, mogging. 588 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,320 Like what is the overall definition for a Chad? 589 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:40,240 A Chad is this Internet term for a generic alpha male or a print 590 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,000 or a dominant man. And they are often times, I 591 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,200 guess, like an effortlessly formidable guy. 592 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,280 And they're, I think, put as this archetype, an archetype of 593 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,520 what often times insell men are trying to compete against. 594 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:02,480 And so they kind of have this almost seemingly easy way of 595 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,120 existing through life. And it almost robs these guys 596 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,120 that they're calling chads of the ability to be, you know, 597 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,040 broken or upset or, you know, insecure. 598 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,960 And because they are not allowed empathy, because they should be 599 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,960 easily able to kind of operate and move through life, it 600 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,600 creates these dynamic of this man versus this man. 601 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,920 Yeah. And so for Chad, like can we 602 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,480 talk a little bit more about like some of the repercussions, 603 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,160 like the when we talk about the physicality and how now there's 604 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,920 like a level of expectation that like men have to look a certain 605 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,080 way, like what is what is that all about? 606 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,080 I think what's super interesting is thinking about how meme 607 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,400 cultures also helped sort of articulate what we visually 608 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,160 assume these men are supposed to be. 609 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,360 Super jacked, nose stripped. Like the the jaw is extremely 610 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,040 chiseled. Like it. 611 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,040 It's funny to think how easy we've kind of created these 612 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,520 visual markers of a certain type of man as like what we all 613 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,400 aspire to. I think that's the reason why 614 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,560 all the boys are going to Turkey to get the hairlines. 615 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,280 You know, I think that's the reason why there is literally 616 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,560 gum that you can buy that will help you build your jawline to 617 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,200 have it more defined. Like the amount of men who are 618 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,760 now doing something called pinning. 619 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,560 Pinning is the increase or just the use of steroids. 620 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,720 Anabolic steroid usage is up among men because they want to 621 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,920 look more yoked, they want to look more brolic, they want to 622 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,880 look more aki like this. OK. 623 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,480 The last one I've never heard. Aki. 624 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,560 Aki is definitely a New York term for like, strong. 625 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,840 Maybe I want to be Aki. Yeah, Hey, as we all should 626 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,160 aspire to, you know, a little little defined is not a bad 627 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,240 thing. Look, I mean, I'll even point to 628 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,200 the fact that we have something called the enhanced Games, 629 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,400 right? The fact that there is now going 630 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,920 to be an Olympics where people do steroids in Las Vegas. 631 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:51,920 What? Is that really? 632 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,680 Yes, this is a thing right? And you know you can if you if 633 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,800 you break a world record, you can get like something like 634 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,720 250,000 to $1,000,000 in certain, certain events. 635 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,520 But I don't love that because doing long, doing steroids has 636 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,880 long term like side effects and health effects and that's not 637 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:07,760 good for anyone. I mean. 638 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:08,640 You're speaking to the choir here. 639 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:09,840 I'm. Right, I'm like what? 640 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,960 But the fact that some of our biggest this venture capitalists 641 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,680 are absolutely funding this exercise and this part of this 642 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:21,120 to me is exactly why this is not just a feel good cultural 643 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,400 exercise. It is deeply economic, it is 644 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,120 deeply political and it cannot be disassociated from the fact 645 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,080 that there was an absolute agenda around what masculinity 646 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,840 and manhood should look like. I mean, one thing I'll say 647 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,720 though, is is masculinity, masculinity and manhood and the 648 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,640 expectations of that in society just now, like finally barely 649 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,120 beginning to catch up with the expectations of femininity and 650 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,360 womanhood because like you're saying like, oh, steroids are 651 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:49,480 bad for you. Well, duh. 652 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,120 But you know what's bad for you? Like getting your nails done and 653 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,480 getting gel nails every day of your life from the age of 4th 654 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,640 grade, spraying your hair with Hairspray, like using perfume. 655 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,840 Like all of those are all of those are poisonous, and women 656 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,880 do it every single day. What I will say is I think the, 657 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,360 what I'm always cautious of is like pointing a finger, 658 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,640 particularly at women, right? I like, I think that there are 659 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,000 specific beauty standards that women don't have the luxury of 660 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,000 being able to opt out of. I think what you know, like the 661 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,920 thesis I probably have on this is that this is probably the 662 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,160 first generation of men forced to navigate the type of self 663 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,040 hate and body dysmorphia that we've previously only ever 664 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,440 demanded of women. And so with that, I think you 665 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,880 kind of get all of these like sad senses of like what I'm 666 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,800 supposed to look like and who I'm supposed to be. 667 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,400 And in that you were sold all of these products in between the 668 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,360 commercial break about what you should be doing and how it 669 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,000 should look ultimately be, you know, a certain type of man. 670 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,280 Welcome to my life since I was 8 years old. 671 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,880 I mean, not to say I know it's like, you know, you don't want 672 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,760 to invite other people into your like, misery, but I don't know, 673 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,200 like you're upset. Am I? 674 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,760 I think you should be. I think that's the beauty, 675 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,160 right? Like if we are angry, we might 676 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,840 do something about it. Okay, right. 677 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,360 Like I think that anger is. A She ain't doing shit. 678 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,360 What are you doing to help the male loneliness epidemic? 679 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,360 I don't know. I'm waiting for Ron to give my. 680 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:13,960 Solution. Yeah, yeah. 681 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,639 But. I think anger is a useful, 682 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,239 necessary driving force of change. 683 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,280 If we are not angry about them as we should be, I don't think 684 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,199 that we feel nearly as motivated to actually go about fixing it. 685 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,679 I think it's really sad. I guess I just feel, I feel 686 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:33,360 empathy, like I think it's really sad that like anyone that 687 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,560 like women have been going through this for like such a 688 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:36,840 long time. And it's really sad that like 689 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,199 men, it's now much, much more public. 690 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,040 And I kind of am glad that it is because then we, I hope we can 691 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,280 address it as a whole is like my, my thing. 692 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,280 I just have empathy and, like, I don't think women should feel 693 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,520 bad about how they look, and I don't think men should feel bad 694 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:51,159 about how they look. And we're kind of at it like a 695 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:54,719 reckoning where it's like, yeah, now, like, men are, I guess, 696 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,960 victims of the patriarchy. And it's much more visible. 697 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,680 Men have always been victims of it, right? 698 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,120 That it's not as though it is. New. 699 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,120 And so if we really own the fact that like this is an ongoing 700 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,800 struggle that everyone from, you know, Judith Butler or Nikki 701 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,120 Giovanni, I've been talking about like there are books out 702 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,840 the wazoo about this. It's just that I think men are 703 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,640 having the ability to spread bad ideas a lot faster. 704 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,200 And so, you know, it's it's things are moving at the speed 705 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,640 of a click and so or clip. And so I think that, you know, 706 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,480 it's really important that the ways and the tools we have to 707 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,720 actually combat that meet them in those different mediums. 708 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,360 OK, well this might be a bit of a hot take, but I think that one 709 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,880 could argue that this evolution of the expectations that are now 710 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,600 placed on men in terms of like looks maxing and improving their 711 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,640 looks and being jacked and stuff, maybe that's actually a 712 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,000 sign of society progressing because now there's like more 713 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,160 equal expectations of men as there are of women historically. 714 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,560 I maybe I'd be, I'd be concerned about that to some degree 715 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,480 because I don't know that that's necessarily what we want. 716 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,080 I don't know if that's progress. I'll say it that way, OK? 717 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:19,720 I don't know that my dream is that women feel pressured to 718 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,280 optimize and aesthetize everything about their lives, 719 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,320 nor do I want that for men. Yeah, but I don't think that's 720 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,840 ever going to go away like it's been, you know? 721 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,000 Maybe, but I think that, you know, if if we do it right, 722 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,080 right, if we really are pushing for something, maybe the point 723 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,040 is like, how do we actually push towards a kind of acceptance of 724 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,080 like graceful aging, right? How do we accept people who 725 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,560 operate without makeup? How do we put a kind of 726 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,200 appreciation of like the simplicity and the like quality 727 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,800 of who you are as you are in its most physical and honest sense? 728 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,320 I agree with you that in an ideal world, nobody has the 729 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,000 expectation of wearing makeup. Everyone can show up as they 730 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,040 are, feel beautiful, feel confident, contribute to society 731 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,600 with their unique gifts, etcetera. 732 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,480 However, I do not think that that is a reality that will 733 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,760 happen for women in our lifetime or even in another lifetime 734 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,840 beyond this. I don't think that expectation 735 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,560 of women having to wear makeup for example, is going to go 736 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,960 away. And I only think it's the fact 737 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,360 that now that these expectations are placed on men, that is the 738 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:34,680 actual the only possible teeny, teeny tiny hope speck of a hope 739 00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:39,080 of, of us being able to move to a society that is like, I guess 740 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,360 you could call it like post looks. 741 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,560 Do you know what I mean? Like it's only because men now 742 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,120 feel that same pain, like a fraction of a percent, that 743 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,400 society can maybe shift. Well, that's kind of what they 744 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:50,840 say. It's like if men had periods, 745 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,480 then we would all have pads. Pads and tampons would be free. 746 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,600 Yeah. There wouldn't be a pink tax. 747 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,920 But I think what I would say from that, I think is there was 748 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,200 this idea maybe that what we really should aspire to is a 749 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,240 kind of spectrum of gender performance, one where the boys 750 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,480 can wear makeup and paint their nails and that be just as good 751 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,760 to show up that way. And you know, my grandma doesn't 752 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,480 have to wear or feel she needs to wear heels to come to walk 753 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,520 outside to show up to an event. And that is the thing that I 754 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,000 think that if we get there where both sides of that spectrum are 755 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,200 both equal and valid and beautiful, I think that that's 756 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,520 the world that I believe we can reach in this lifetime. 757 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:29,560 Or at least I think it's one worth fighting for in this 758 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,320 lifetime. I don't believe that my kids 759 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,200 should be the only people or my grandkids should be the only 760 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,560 people that get to benefit from. That not grandma, OK, Ron, I 761 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,720 think you are a very uniquely progressive individual in my 762 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:45,320 mind. Which is why we're friends. 763 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,160 Yeah, that's true. I mean, if we had a world full 764 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,760 of Ron's. The world would be a better. 765 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,920 Place that would be incredible, but I am very curious like what 766 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,080 is your take on on kind of this entire conversation but applied 767 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,880 to like dating, for example, and do you think like your take is 768 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,200 similar to your guy friends or like you know the the ecosystem 769 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,440 of men? I think it is Hard Out Here. 770 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,600 I am in the streets and so anybody watch? 771 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,760 Let's put his handle up on on the screen. 772 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,480 His DMS are open, yes. Always please shoot shots. 773 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:19,760 So I think it is Hard Out Here, right? 774 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,280 Like the research would say that for every woman on any of these 775 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,320 dating platforms, the hinges, the Tinders, the Bumbles, 776 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,200 whatever, there are two men. So it's that 2 for one, right? 777 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,560 So knowing that in that way, I think this is exactly what fits 778 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,440 into this kind of logic around red Pilling or black Pilling, 779 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,720 IE, is it even worth trying to go out there and date is because 780 00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:43,320 I think that you might say that there's an algorithmic approach 781 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,040 to this. If a platform, a dating app says 782 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,400 the only way that you're really going to get seen is if you just 783 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,960 pay like 30 bucks a month and then we'll show you to more 784 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,160 people, they have no incentive for you to leave because next 785 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,520 month it's not $30. And so I absolutely feel as 786 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,840 though there is one big conspiracy out there that is 787 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,920 absolutely benefiting from people being unhappy, 788 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,840 unsatisfied, and unconnected or disconnected from intimacy. 789 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,960 Because then you don't get to play these really silly games 790 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,640 around finding partnership and connection. 791 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,800 So you think the male loneliness epidemic is due to capitalism? 792 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,760 Yes, there was an economy for this. 793 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,840 And so there is no way to not look at the balance sheets of 794 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,520 some of the largest companies on earth that ask, hey, how 795 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,040 convenient is it that I'm a little less happy and that you 796 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,200 are the ones selling me happiness. 797 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,160 OK, so let's let's move into the solution space. 798 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,920 Not all, not all like doom and gloom. 799 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,480 Well, I think it's interesting because we gave it the context 800 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,920 and now we can talk about like, so now what? 801 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,320 Like what can we do? What can women do? 802 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,960 What can men do? And what can society do as a 803 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,080 whole to move us forward out of the space that we're not happy 804 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,760 about? I think that from maybe what men 805 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:03,440 can do most immediately, I will offer some things that feel very 806 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,240 hand WAVY, but I do think are actually honest ways to appraise 807 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,120 gender, which I think we probably as men need to do a 808 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,920 better job of like reading feminist literature, right? 809 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,280 Like, I think that I know that sounds like the most obvious 810 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:18,480 thing, but like reading that doesn't. 811 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,200 Sound that obvious? I'm happy about that. 812 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,440 But like reading feminist theory and, and, and just getting some 813 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,440 baseline understanding of what the imagination for a world 814 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,720 where women are equal and where women are actually not the 815 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,200 objects of sex, but simply are people who are building 816 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,120 community and building progress with you is probably the best 817 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,160 thing that we could just start with is just opening up your, 818 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:44,880 you know, view and your lens on that. 819 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,360 Is there like a starter text you might recommend I? 820 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,240 Will recommend some things in the notes cuz I think you know 821 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:51,320 it's like it's. You've got a lot. 822 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,720 We'll have a kit for you, a kit for all the men. 823 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,400 I love that maybe like we can all we'll take a look. 824 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,200 But like books and blogs and like other. 825 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,720 Think about we talked a little like like volunteering and I 826 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:07,600 think that it is a really useful way to think about how you as a 827 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,280 man might be able to volunteer in certain ways and participate 828 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,280 like how you how can you leverage some of the 829 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,880 physiological elements of manhood to to volunteer. 830 00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:19,480 I will give some examples for me. 831 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:26,680 I remember during the pandemic, I, I took all of my PTO and on 832 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,280 Fridays at 1:00, I would take off and go work at a food bank 833 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,520 because during the pandemic, if you remember, no one was going 834 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,920 into these spaces because you were afraid of being near like a 835 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,800 homeless person that spent all time outside. 836 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,320 And so the idea that I could use my body and lift heavy bags up 837 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,480 and down, walking up stairs or breaking down boxes because 838 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:49,760 that's physically something that I had. 839 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,080 But I also, I was alone because when I went home, there wasn't 840 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,680 anyone to, you know, have dinner with or there wasn't anyone that 841 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,280 was going to be on the other side of that table. 842 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,880 But it was a way for me to feel deeply connected to my community 843 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,400 and be of service. I think that finding service is 844 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,920 a way to find purpose. And I think a lot of men are 845 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,560 often lacking is a sense of purpose. 846 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,760 And that is a way to actually really connect your sense of 847 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,160 man, manliness and manhood to that. 848 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,280 So maybe it's like men who are part of the male loneliness 849 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:24,280 epidemic feel purposeless and they need to find a service or a 850 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,080 way to dedicate their time and energy to, but should be very, 851 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,080 very intentional and careful about what that service is and 852 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,240 if it actually is of service to our community and progressing 853 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,520 the good of the world. I agree. 854 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,640 I think that these men, in a lot of ways, are ripe for 855 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,080 exploitation. And so if we embrace that, then 856 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,960 we will enter into that with a lot more care and a lot more 857 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,560 capacity to say, hey, you know what, you can be a victim. 858 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,160 And so it's actually important for me to intervene in that 859 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,400 potential victimization. I don't think they love hearing 860 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,000 that though, like you like, so I'm like, hey, come volunteer 861 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,960 with me on Saturdays for reading for kids. 862 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,040 Reading to young elementary school kids. 863 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,160 This is a A cause worth investing in and finding purpose 864 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,720 in. Yeah, I mean, and, and once 865 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:20,040 again, maybe it is in trying to find ways that are particularly 866 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,080 quote UN quote manly. I think that group therapy is a 867 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,920 great opportunity to escape the loneliness. 868 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,800 I mean, the boys are spending time having AI girlfriends where 869 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,160 they are talking to the system that is sycophantic by nature, 870 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,200 right. And so being able to say, look, 871 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,760 let's actually go out and commiserate together for a 872 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,920 moment. And maybe not as a way to pile 873 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,240 on women, but to really access this in a way that is really 874 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,400 community based. I think what you all are doing 875 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,040 is a form of group therapy, right, With between sisters, but 876 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,760 hopefully also with an audience. And so I think that there's 877 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,280 something that we all have a responsibility to, which is to 878 00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,720 open up our doors and our and our minds to these ideas of, of 879 00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:02,440 where we can do better. Yeah, I love that. 880 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,840 And So what can women or society be doing specifically to help 881 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,000 out? Women are perfect. 882 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,320 They can. Do the wrong and again his his 883 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,800 Instagram handle is yes. Yes, yes. 884 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:22,280 What can women do? I think that women can challenge 885 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,920 their partners to have a more diverse emotional portfolio. 886 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,520 So I think that where and I think that's something that 887 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,960 exists independent of whether or not that relationship survives. 888 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:44,880 The idea that men often times are really leaning on women to 889 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,760 help them actually feel a sense of connection and feel a sense 890 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:55,280 of purpose is both disappointing and also it is a kind of doom 891 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,400 loop in its own right. Because if it doesn't work out 892 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,240 or if you're not available, I think that that's a really 893 00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:03,320 important to go to and say like, hey, like my responsibility is 894 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:08,200 to both challenge you and to let you know that you have the 895 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,480 capacity for this thing to be a very interconnected person. 896 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,080 In that way. I think it's also where women 897 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,160 can safely it's always the optimal thing is to be able to 898 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,800 create friendships with men and to be visible about the fact 899 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,320 that there's a lot of utility in non sexual, non performative 900 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,200 relationships. That give men the space and the 901 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:37,040 opportunity to understand what women are thinking and why their 902 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,960 lives and why their experiences are just as hard as the guys on 903 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,000 the other side, who often times feel as though they're dealing 904 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,640 with something completely in silence. 905 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,680 I think like bringing it back to the beginning of the episode and 906 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,440 kind of why we decided to tackle this topic is that our thesis is 907 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,640 that, you know, the male loneliness epidemic is not just 908 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,040 a problem for men, right? It's a problem for women. 909 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:00,480 It's a problem for all of society. 910 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,720 It's something that we can all contribute to in a positive way. 911 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,480 So I think, like Cherie, what are some of your takeaways from 912 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:10,720 this episode? Yeah. 913 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,840 I think Ron in in speaking with you and hearing more about your 914 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:19,880 points, I've gained a new maybe appreciation or empathy for the 915 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,240 men who are kind of like brought into who are maybe opting in, 916 00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:25,800 but also like kind of victim of this situation. 917 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,560 And I think as we talked about before, like empathy is not a 918 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,800 finite resource. I think in order to make 919 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,160 progress on this problem, like we have to feel deep empathy. 920 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,720 And I think it's actually really sad, Like the stats we read in 921 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:41,440 the beginning of like male loneliness, men feeling 922 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,320 disconnected, men feeling like they don't have like a close 923 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,600 person in their life. Like that's actually deeply, 924 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,480 deeply sad. And it's not like I'm wishing 925 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,360 that upon anyone. Like I don't think women should 926 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,520 feel that loneliness. I don't think men should feel 927 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,840 that loneliness. So I think it is empathy, 928 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,680 learning to have that empathy so we can make progress. 929 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,080 I mean, one thing I'm proud of like us for doing is even just 930 00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:08,600 having this conversation, right? It's like that's the idea of you 931 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,520 can't progress on a problem and try to move towards the solution 932 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,440 unless you name the problem and then you discuss it and then you 933 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,240 put it out there in the world. So like I'm proud of us for 934 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,320 tackling what is actually like a pretty complex topic to to talk 935 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,520 through. And again, we have never done 936 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,160 this before. So we are really in my mind, 937 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,760 we're like really putting, putting ourselves out there in a 938 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,920 big way. And like I've never done this 939 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,280 before. So like we would love to know 940 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,840 what you guys think, right? Like the reason we're doing this 941 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,600 is because we want to invite this dialogue. 942 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,760 We want to hear what you guys are are thinking and your 943 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:44,640 reactions. Do you? 944 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,480 Agree. Do you disagree? 945 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,400 Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are a lot of 946 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:49,960 thoughts that we put out there, yeah. 947 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,920 And I guess I'll, I'll finish up on saying that like, I loved 948 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,120 your suggestion, Ron, about like what we can do about this male 949 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,800 loneliness epidemic for me, like building deeper relationships 950 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,480 with the men in my life and just talking more about this. 951 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,320 Like, are you lonely? Like, how is it going in the 952 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,040 dating world? Like I think often times men are 953 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,840 not invited to have those conversations and can feel like 954 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,320 it's a very like insular problem. 955 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:16,960 They don't have anyone else to tell. 956 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:18,680 Like, are they going through therapy? 957 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,480 Is it stigmatized? Like I'm thinking about the male 958 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,280 friendships I have in my life that are platonic. 959 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,960 And I want to invite more of those conversations because I 960 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,840 think they are open to talking about it and making sure that 961 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,160 they feel like there is a place to speak on it. 962 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,080 I hope that people maybe after leaving this, feel less shame 963 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,600 about these ideas and these moments of loneliness. 964 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,040 That it is both a reality and that it is also something that 965 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,880 can be navigated and like moved through. 966 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,480 That it is, you know, something that is not a permanent fixture 967 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,840 of life, is not immutable. You can absolutely extend and 968 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,640 exist beyond that. I think the thing that I would 969 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,800 love to also like kind of leave people with is just the idea 970 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,560 that that there are no silver bullets, but there are Silver 971 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,240 Linings. And what I mean by that is that 972 00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:06,480 there are no quick fixes. There is no singular one thing 973 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,080 that can be sold to you today or tomorrow or in between the ad 974 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,280 break. And in knowing that you might be 975 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,080 willing to invest in more structural solutions, that if we 976 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,400 escape the idea of alienation or loneliness and talk about it as 977 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:25,000 alienation, we are more willing to actually think about and own 978 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,040 the process of progress and how we all get to play a part in 979 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:30,680 that. Wow. 980 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:32,440 Thank you. I mean, I think we should just 981 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:33,800 leave it at that. Awesome. 982 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,160 Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much. 983 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:36,880 This. Is incredible and thank you guys 984 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,200 Tiger fam for tuning in. We'll see you next time bye. 985 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,280 Please double check that you're subscribed to Tiger Sisters on 986 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,880 YouTube and following Tiger Sisters Podcast on Spotify and 987 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,440 Apple Podcasts. Subscribing and following are 988 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,480 completely free and are genuinely so important for the 989 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,440 survival of Tiger Sisters. It helps us keep making the 990 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,880 show, improving it and growing it so we can reach and help more 991 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:01,280 people. And if you're already 992 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,320 subscribed, thank you, truly. It means you're not just 993 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,800 watching this episode, you're part of this community and 994 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,400 you're part of this journey with us. 995 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,560 We don't take that lightly and we are so grateful that you're 996 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:11,840 here.