1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,600 Apologize, but you didn't think that you were going to get love 2 00:00:02,760 --> 00:00:05,760 advice funny. I want more love advice. 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,240 MM Rogers, the love Apple. I'm. 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,600 Cherie, I'm Jean. I'm Mike. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,440 And we're the Tiger sisters. We are your Wall Street and 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,880 Silicon Valley Big Sisters. And we're a top ten business 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,800 podcast on Spotify where we talk about money, power, and love. 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,960 Our world is more connected than ever and more vulnerable than 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,440 ever. From global cyberattacks to AI 10 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,520 risks to the way we live online, security is no longer just a 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,440 government issue. It touches every one of us. 12 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:42,040 And few people understand that better than Admiral Mike Rogers. 13 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,720 As former director of the National Security Agency and 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,080 commander of US Cyber Command, he led at the highest levels of 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,880 intelligence and defense. Today, he advises companies and 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,360 governments on how to navigate the new age of cyber risk, 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,200 technology and global. Power. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,840 We're talking about leadership under pressure, the future of 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,400 cybersecurity, and what we can all learn about resilience from 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,720 someone who's been at the center of history. 21 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,520 Admiral Rogers, welcome to Tigers this year, It's an honor 22 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,600 to. Be with you ladies. 23 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,200 Thank you very much for the kind invitation. 24 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,320 Very kind of you. The First things first, blink 25 00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:19,640 twice if we're being listened to right now. 26 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,520 Well, you hope you are. That is the purpose of a 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,280 podcast, to communicate to a broad audience you want people 28 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,080 to be listening to. OK, true. 29 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,080 Hello to the NSA, we welcome them. 30 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:34,960 So for our first question on values and identity, you spent 31 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:38,560 your career making decisions with enormous consequences. 32 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,360 What personal values guided you when stakes couldn't be higher? 33 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,120 Number one, always integrity, the idea that you're going to do 34 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,440 the right thing. Now, people define right or 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:50,720 wrong differently. I acknowledge that. 36 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,680 But the idea of moral and ethical dimensions to decision 37 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,280 making, it's probably, to be honest, what attracted me to the 38 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,600 idea of serving in the Navy, serving in the military in the 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,040 1st place. I can remember telling my 40 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,200 parents, I literally told my parents when I was 11 years old 41 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,199 in the 6th grade, that I was going to be a naval officer. 42 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:11,760 I just read stories of the sea. I didn't come from a military 43 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,240 family per SE, and I grew up in Chicago, so a long way from the 44 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,760 ocean. But I was intrigued as I read 45 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,560 stories of the maritime environment of this idea of 46 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,640 challenging circumstances, leadership, but with a strong 47 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,840 ethical and moral base to it. This, this idea of no matter how 48 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,880 soon you are, no matter what you do right and wrong always plays 49 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,320 a core component. So for me, I, I've tried to live 50 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280 that both in my professional life and my personal life, this 51 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,840 idea of right and wrong. And then the other part is 52 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,560 trying to articulate. So what's as you're making a 53 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,320 decision, why? What's the basis for it? 54 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,040 Trying to help others try to understand, here's my thought 55 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:49,360 process. This is the calculus. 56 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,000 This is what leads me to believe that this is the appropriate 57 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,080 approach to take. It sounds like you knew who you 58 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,680 were from a very young age. I am very fortunate. 59 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,080 I, I, I think that's a fair. I'm not trying to pat myself in 60 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,280 the back the way I would phrase it. 61 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,440 I was a person who was always very comfortable with who I was 62 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,320 and I never trying to be something I wasn't, and I had 63 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,400 zero interests in being something other than what I 64 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,240 thought I was and what I thought I should be. 65 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,000 I was not a person. Look, I am very grateful that 66 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,360 they made me a four-star Admiral, but I'll be honest, I 67 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,920 didn't like the trappings of being a four-star Admiral so 68 00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:27,600 much because it can create a wall at times between you and 69 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,280 others. But you know, I, I was always 70 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,440 the Admiral. I understand that. 71 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,440 I know how this works and I didn't my favorite part of my 72 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,720 career. I often get asked, so you did 37 73 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,480 years. You went from, you know, an at 74 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,960 21 year old Ensign, a brand new officer run a destroyer out of 75 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,320 Norfolk up to this four-star combatant commander running the 76 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,560 largest, the same time running the largest intelligence 77 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,800 organization in the free world. And I often tell people that 78 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,200 the, the part in many ways that I just loved the most was the 79 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,960 very beginning when I was just a very junior officer and every 80 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,480 day was about learning something new with a great bunch of men 81 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:03,520 and women. I just love that. 82 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,040 It's very telling and interesting how you answer the 83 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,880 question not just about your values, but you added that 84 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,160 second part where you were like. It's also about communicating. 85 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,640 Oh, yeah. I think that's very important 86 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,240 because part of it, I was thought as a leader, part of my 87 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,360 job is to help build the bench for the future. 88 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,360 Part of the job is to help create the culture, the climate 89 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,400 and the expectation of the team. And you can't do that if you're 90 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,960 not willing to, to communicate. If you're just going to be a 91 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,160 leader who says this is the decision, go make it happen, you 92 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,360 can do that. I I just was never a big fan of 93 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,560 that approach, which is surprising I would guess to some 94 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,360 people and say, but yeah, but you're a four-star Emily. 95 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,360 Just tell people and I'm going. If the only thing that you have 96 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,840 going for you in your leadership kit bag is by God, I'm the boss. 97 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:49,920 So go do what I want. If that's the only thing you got 98 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,720 going for you, you're pretty. Limited. 99 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,520 So you're in the camp of I still have to win hearts and minds. 100 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,120 I want to communicate the what and the why, both because that I 101 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,760 want to inform and educate, but I want them to become advocates 102 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,800 for this approach. Not just, OK, I don't understand 103 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,760 this or I'm not familiar with the why, but the boss wants to 104 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,080 do it, so we're just going to go do it. 105 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,440 I always thought the much more effective, much greater 106 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,120 probability of success if people understood the why, it embraced 107 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,720 it. And if you understand the why, 108 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,360 it helps you. Then when you deal with the 109 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,040 unknown, you can make a decision and the people have to execute 110 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,040 it. You can't account for every 111 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,560 circumstance. You can't account for every 112 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,960 particular scenario. But if you help people 113 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,120 understand the why, in the military, we call that 114 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,600 articulating commander's intent. Hey, this is the why. 115 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,200 This is what we're trying to achieve. 116 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,840 It really helps your subordinates when they're 117 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:41,840 dealing with uncertainty, when they're dealing with something 118 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:45,760 new, they can mentally think to themselves, OK, this is what 119 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,120 we're trying to achieve. This is the broader framework I 120 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,400 was given. How does this fit this situation 121 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,360 I'm dealing with? How does it fit within that 122 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,000 framework and how can I make a decision? 123 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,040 Helps us achieve the end state for the military. 124 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,720 It's very powerful, very important for us. 125 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,880 I love that I'm going to use the articulating commander's intent. 126 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,640 There you go. We're going to use that from now 127 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,200 on. Between the two of us, yeah. 128 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,640 Well, there's a sister dynamic here, ladies, that you're going. 129 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,200 To have to deal with. Very true. 130 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,200 Commander, are we Co. Commanders Co. 131 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:15,120 Commanders. I would think so. 132 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:16,520 I would think you'd have to be Co. 133 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,760 Commanders, for purposes of this, leading at the NSA and 134 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,760 Cyber Command meant balancing secrecy, politics and national 135 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,800 security. So how do you approach these 136 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,840 situations when there's no perfect answer, just trade-offs? 137 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:34,680 So #1 to your previous question, always start with the foundation 138 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:39,080 of integrity, this idea of right and wrong and always trying to 139 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,000 do the right thing #1 #2 always remember what the mission is 140 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,240 you've been given and the end state you've been given. 141 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,720 Number three, try to articulate, make sure everybody understands 142 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,880 that broader context, because I'm the first to admit what 143 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,280 might make sense from a purely military perspective. 144 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,280 If you're the president or if you're the Congress, or if you 145 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:00,640 were some of our foreign counterparts, from their 146 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,360 perspective, it may not look the same. 147 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,200 My attitude always was. I will leave it to the political 148 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,680 world to decide the political dimensions of the decision. 149 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,280 I will only tell you from my perspective as a senior military 150 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,480 commander or senior intelligence professional, what I would 151 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,080 recommend based on the outcome you're telling me you want to 152 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,240 achieve. I'll let you decide the 153 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,400 political dimensions. That's not my role. 154 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,760 And I, jeez, I never got into that. 155 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,560 Then I worked for a Democratic president the last two years of 156 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,480 President Obama's second administration. 157 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,440 And I worked for a Republican president the 1st 2 1/2 years of 158 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,360 President Trump in his first administration. 159 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,360 And my attitude was I will support both of you to the best 160 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,880 of my ability. I'm not here to make a political 161 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,400 interpretation that that's the job of you and others around 162 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:48,760 you. That's not my role as a 163 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:49,480 military. Yeah. 164 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,240 I think that's really interesting. 165 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,000 I want to dig into that a little bit more. 166 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,480 So the idea that you worked for these two commanders in chief 167 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,480 who were in many ways their ideology very different, 168 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,520 different so diametrically. As well as their view of the 169 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:04,760 world very different. Yeah. 170 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,480 So how did you sort of like bridge that gap when you're the 171 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,080 one that is actually the, the consist, the constant across 172 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,280 these two administrations? First, you're you're trying to 173 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,880 understand what each is trying to achieve. 174 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,240 Yeah, and they were, they were different. 175 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,080 And they were different. Secondly, you're trying to 176 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,680 understand how does each of them assimilate information? 177 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,000 How does each of them what's, how is it to be affected with 178 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,960 them? So, for example, President Obama 179 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,240 was a constitutional lawyer by education and initial 180 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,559 experience. So what did that mean? 181 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,520 He loved getting into details. He loved and could rapidly 182 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,919 assimilate a whole lot of written material, you know, just 183 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:48,360 the reading legal briefs. So I knew generally almost 184 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,840 everything when you work for presidents and it's it's not 185 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,800 unique to presidents. Many businesses run the same 186 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,000 way. You know, hey, if a subordinate 187 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,240 is going to provide a presentation to the boss, the 188 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,800 boss wants to see the presentation 24 hours or so in 189 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,800 advance so the boss can read it, assimilate it. 190 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:04,880 And that's OK Got it. Understand. 191 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,840 Here's the things I really want us to focus on and here's the 192 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,240 questions. President Obama, he read every 193 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,520 prep and every time I would see him, he'd say, OK, Mike, I've 194 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,160 read all the prep material. Here's the three issues I want 195 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:23,480 to focus on. OK, Sir, President Trump very 196 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,040 much the human dynamic, the interaction piece. 197 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,480 Not a huge reader, not a huge detail guy. 198 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,840 So for example, when we did the transition between the two and I 199 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,040 asked my team, hey, look, let's think about what we might need 200 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,480 to do differently given the two. Very different approaches and 201 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,560 dynamics of these individuals as humans. 202 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:50,080 And I can remember the teams telling me, well, no Sir, we're 203 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,640 just going to do keep doing what we're doing. 204 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,520 And I'm going, guys I've interacted with, with President 205 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,000 Trump, that's not what we're going to do. 206 00:09:56,680 --> 00:10:00,440 I said he assimilates by verbal interaction much more than 207 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,880 reading. He loves the visual image piece. 208 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,800 So for example, I said with with President Trump, I want to 209 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,720 distill this down into about 3 takeaways for him. 210 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,560 I don't want long detailed presentations to him because it 211 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:19,480 just won't it won't assimilate with him. 212 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,800 He just doesn't like long detail things. 213 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,040 And I want a map or a set of pictures on every subject that 214 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,560 we talk about because I want him to be able to relate what we're 215 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,400 talking about to something that resonates with him. 216 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,040 An image or a map that made much better outcomes. 217 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,400 I found dealing with him, it played to what he was 218 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,120 comfortable with. It played to his strengths. 219 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,360 But, and I'm not arguing one was good and 1 was bad, they're just 220 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,680 totally different. I found my job as a subordinate 221 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:48,480 was, it's not about what I would do. 222 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,240 It's not about what I would think is effective. 223 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,200 It should be about what do I have to do to be effective with 224 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,200 them. And that varies by the 225 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,160 individual. It was one of the best lessons I 226 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,720 ever learned as a senior guy at, you know, at a political level, 227 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,960 everybody's different and the Congress was different than the 228 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,120 executive branch. So when I had to deal with the 229 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,120 center of the house, that was different than dealing with, you 230 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,680 know, the White House. I love this story because 231 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,680 something we learn in like public speaking class is like 232 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,960 know your audience and this is the perfect embodiment and also 233 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,600 the craziest story of know your audience. 234 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,240 Right. It's just like in business 235 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:26,680 that's not unique. This These are basic human 236 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:28,880 communication dynamics guys. Yeah. 237 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:30,960 Like in sports, they're like play to the ball. 238 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,840 Or if you're playing tennis and you're playing on a different 239 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,160 hardcore versus grass versus clay, you have. 240 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,120 To change your game, know your. Surface how? 241 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,040 Does that change your style? Does it change the 242 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,440 characteristics of the environment? 243 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,800 What's going to be effective in clay versus what's going to be 244 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,720 effective on grass? Not, hey, I play tennis one way. 245 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,080 I don't change based on them. Like you aren't going to win at 246 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,560 the highest professional levels that way. 247 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,360 So then aside from your communication approach, what 248 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,240 about I guess in terms of like really conveying your, the 249 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,520 points that you wanted to make and like really putting your 250 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,520 recommendation and trying to get the the president's to, to adopt 251 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,600 to kind of your best practices? And well, remember, you're as a 252 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,360 senior leader in intelligence and cyber, you're just one of 253 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,560 many voices that are articulating A viewpoint. 254 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,720 And you're also part of a process often times that is 255 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,840 designed to tee up, if you will, a consensus among multiple 256 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,880 organizations in the government. So sometimes you'll talk 257 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,880 directly to the president, one-on-one or a very small 258 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,360 group. And sometimes the president will 259 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:33,880 say, hey, Mike, tell me what you think. 260 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,800 Yeah, sometimes you're part of group and you're trying to 261 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,240 distill all these different impressions into a single 262 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,200 recommendation that then collectively you can present to 263 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,520 a president. Sometimes you're staying there 264 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,840 and you are doing assessments where he will say, well, what 265 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,040 about these options? And you know, he'll walk you 266 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,600 through, hey, here's what I'm thinking about. 267 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,640 And then you're trying to assess, well, this would be the 268 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,480 pro, this would be the con. I've met the one time with 269 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,040 President Obama again, he was because he was a lawyer by so he 270 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:03,480 loved the Socratic method. Yeah. 271 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,720 He's the only boss I ever. I remember one of the first 272 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,560 times I met him, he asked my opinion. 273 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:12,000 Then he said to me, now I want you to argue the contrary. 274 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,000 And I was like, what? I get nothing wrong with that. 275 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,520 It's just something very different for me. 276 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,440 And I just thought no one's ever asked me to argue a contrary 277 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,000 viewpoint. Normally I just ask, hey tell me 278 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,240 what you think. That's so like nerdy and the 279 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,840 best way that is so right. Like that's so like just 280 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,840 straight from. He's like, now be your own 281 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,360 devil's advocate, yeah. It did take a mental reset. 282 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,720 I remember as I'm sitting there. He asked me this in the White 283 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,880 House situation room and and as part of a conversation with some 284 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,680 other people. And I can remember mentally 285 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:45,560 thinking to myself, OK, how, how, what would be the contrary? 286 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,320 If you guys OK Sir, if you don't like this, here's a contrary. 287 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,320 Yeah, you want me to poke holes in my own argument? 288 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,960 Which is fair, yeah, because that's all part of the process. 289 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,400 Everything's got trade-offs. True. 290 00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:59,360 That's just the way it is. It's. 291 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,040 So interesting how you're describing the dynamic of the 292 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,120 different types of meetings. Cause one thing we've talked 293 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,520 about a bunch on the podcast is that the idea that in business, 294 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:12,080 a lot of times meetings are kind of in a way we call it like 295 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,280 Kabuki theater. There you go. 296 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,280 Like so we know the. Answer. 297 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:16,960 Yeah, we know. It's like so much of. 298 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,120 It has already been pre orchestrated and like 299 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,600 conversations, there's back channelling, There's all this 300 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,280 sort of pre work and a lot of times when you go into the room 301 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,680 and you don't know where the conversation is headed, you've 302 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,040 already like lost. Well, he was, I will say the CMS 303 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,880 levels in government, particularly in the executive 304 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:35,960 badge. Look generally there is a 305 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,640 framework, you know the issue that you're there to address 306 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,440 that's defined for you. Normally you will see, you'll 307 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,440 receive prep material that you were part of the input into in 308 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,400 which the different viewpoints are laid out. 309 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,480 You'll often see a flow of how the conversation is going to go. 310 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,640 The director, the CI is going to talk about this, the director of 311 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,280 NSA, he's going to talk about this Secretary of Defense that 312 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,840 whatever. So there is a, a format in a 313 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,840 flow. But on the other hand, 314 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,600 invariably it it, it works out to be when you, when it's all 315 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,240 said and done, a group of individuals with a broad set of 316 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,400 perspectives and led by an individual, a chief executive 317 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,640 who's, you know, at the end once said, OK, got it. 318 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,280 No, tell me what you think, but are you like? 319 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,680 Texting the Secretary of Defense like under the table? 320 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,240 No, you don't. Bring any no electronics in 321 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,120 this. Thing you don't bring any. 322 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,240 Electronics in this you just keep. 323 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,400 Passing a post it no, you don't bring any. 324 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,080 Electronics into this, Yeah. So I've never worked in 325 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,560 government in any official matter or unofficial matter. 326 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:37,680 Does anyone? I was. 327 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,360 About to say, are you implying that there's some sort of, you 328 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,080 know, initial relationship between? 329 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:43,080 No, no. Implication there. 330 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,640 I've never worked in government, but the closest that I've gotten 331 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,720 is a class that I took at Stanford in the Business School, 332 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,800 and it's called I'm Just a Bill. It's a brilliant class that 333 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,240 tries to get business students more engaged with politics or at 334 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,960 least understanding the inner workings. 335 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,600 And it's taught by this incredible professor called 336 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,560 Keith Hennessy. And he was an economic advisor 337 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:09,360 to President George Bush, too. And so in the class, he really, 338 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,080 I mean, it's a simulation for 10 weeks where everyone gets a role 339 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,520 and then they have to play either a senator or a 340 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,640 congressperson. And they really embody, you 341 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,640 know, I was a Democratic senator from Washington state and also 342 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,160 chairwoman of the Tech Committee. 343 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,480 Well done. Thank you. 344 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,920 Well played, Senator, and. It's actually, I was really 345 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,360 nervous going into the class because I felt like I didn't 346 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,560 really know, you know, how well aside from my like the 347 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,640 perspective of that. Kind of particular individual, 348 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,080 exactly. And in the beginning of the 349 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,680 class, the professor asks, what is most important to you, 350 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,000 national security or privacy? And at one point, you know, 351 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,960 students have to go around and and explain their perspective 352 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,920 and why. And so now I turn the question 353 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,360 to you, Admiral. So my. 354 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,720 My response would be it's not a binary either or I just I, I 355 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,680 would often be asked this testifying before Congress, and 356 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,360 I'd say that's not the way to look at this. 357 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,119 It's not a binary. It's one or the other. 358 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,319 Both are very valid, both are very significant and both are 359 00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:12,240 very appropriate concerns. But don't start out by saying 360 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,760 it's either or I, for me at least, I just fundamentally 361 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,280 reject that premise. It's not. 362 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,319 Black or white there is. You want to try to achieve both. 363 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,440 My attitude was, look, we want security and privacy even as we 364 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,119 also want to ensure that we're adopting policies that enhance 365 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,320 our national security. Now, there are many times 366 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,560 tensions between those imperatives are those desires. 367 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,840 So what you're trying to figure out is how do you mitigate some 368 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,440 of those tensions potentially? And what are the areas where 369 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,960 it's an imperfect decision, but you think 1 imperative outweighs 370 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,320 the other? And sometimes you'll they'll do 371 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,080 that. So I've been part of many of 372 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,400 those discussions and those kinds of topics in government, 373 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,720 but. And for someone who's, I guess, 374 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,320 a civilian like me, how should we think about national security 375 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,000 and privacy or what are some of the frameworks that we should be 376 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,120 thinking so first of? All we are broadly, you're 377 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,600 seeing governments define national security much more 378 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,120 broadly now than they used to. When you think about national 379 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:17,200 security, go back in time, while the economic element was a 380 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,720 portion of national security, I would argue we now think of 381 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,520 national security with a significant economic security 382 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,920 dimension to it. Again, it's not a criticism, 383 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,440 it's just a reflection of the world that we're living in now. 384 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,920 I would also argue that one of the challenges in government, 385 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,400 you're setting policies that are going to shape private sector 386 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,960 choices, private sector priorities, private sector 387 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,360 actions. And yet I'm a good example. 388 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,480 I can remember having this discussion with President Trump 389 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,920 one time. You know, well, Sir, I, I've 390 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,360 spent at this time, I'm having this conversation with him. 391 00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:59,800 I said something like, Sir, I've, I've spent 34 years in 392 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,480 government. It's the only thing, the only 393 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,000 thing I've ever done as an adult post college was be in the 394 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,240 military. I, I've never worked in the 395 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,880 private. I did as a kid to make money to 396 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,080 pay for college, but I, I haven't really as an independent 397 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,400 adult. So I always thought one of the 398 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,280 challenges when you're in government and you're trying to 399 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,440 figure out these issues is remember that you're thinking 400 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,000 about the impact of those who actually have to execute this 401 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,200 policy and those who are going to be impacted by this policy. 402 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,920 And in many cases, you're not going to have direct experience 403 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,200 or knowledge. So how can you in the process to 404 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,760 generate this policy decision? How can you try to access 405 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,800 knowledge and insight from those who do have that kind of 406 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,360 background consumer? Research that one. 407 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,040 Of the things I loved, I was a military guy. 408 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:55,560 And yet because I was involved in intelligent cyber technology, 409 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,520 I found myself spending a lot of time out in Silicon Valley. 410 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:05,040 I found myself spending a lot of time out in Washington state and 411 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,920 in other parts of the country dealing with. 412 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,880 Corporate tech leadership to often I can remember President 413 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,000 Obama a couple of times, you know, asked me, hey, Mike, would 414 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,520 you go out to the West Coast? And I'd say yes, Mr. President. 415 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,160 And so you're trying to understand their concerns while 416 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,800 you're trying to voice government concerns. 417 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,240 You're trying to figure out, Sir, is there a middle ground 418 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,400 here? Is there a way for us to work 419 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,560 together? I really, I found that really 420 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,560 interesting because I, I, if you would ask me as a military guy, 421 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,320 am I going to be talking to some of the largest, the CEO, some of 422 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,440 the largest, most visible tech companies in the world? 423 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,520 I, I would have said no way. I'm a military guy. 424 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,720 And yet I found myself doing that many of these individuals 425 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,880 you now see on television and in social media. 426 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,600 And it was an interesting experience for me. 427 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:51,280 I learned a lot from it. I'm so. 428 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,280 Curious like how did those meetings and how did your 429 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,440 impressions like stack up to what you your initial I guess 430 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,760 prejudices or what you thought about these leaders like were 431 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,000 they after you met them? Were you like you guys are 432 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,880 totally you're totally not connected to to the world at 433 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,160 all, like you're in your own little ivory, you know, bubble, 434 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,880 or were you like you know what, actually, they're super smart 435 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,600 and I think they have something. So again, neither. 436 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,240 Of those are mutually exclusive, yeah. 437 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,680 So what? My perception. 438 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,440 So you take it for what it's worth, I thought they didn't 439 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,240 understand us. They didn't understand 440 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,280 government very well and we didn't understand their very 441 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,600 well, which is another reason why guys, we need to be talking 442 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,120 to each other because we're talking past each other a lot, 443 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,560 because we think we each understand the other one. 444 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,400 And yet at times, as I'm sure they would, I would be thinking, 445 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,680 and I'm thinking about you don't have a clue about how government 446 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,240 works or you don't have a clue about the the dimensions that 447 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:51,240 shape our culture. Or, you know, with all due 448 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,960 respect, I can remember having a conversation with one CEO what I 449 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,440 said, you know, I have a lot of respect for what you have done 450 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,280 and what you've achieved and what your company does. 451 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,080 But don't think for one minute that we are among the best in 452 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,480 the world of what we do. And I'll put my engineers up 453 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,360 against your engineers. And you want to have a 454 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:08,720 conversation. You want to have a technical 455 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,040 conversation, bring it on. That doesn't mean 1 is better 456 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,440 than the other. My only view was, guys, we each 457 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,440 bring organizations that have a lot of smarts and a lot of 458 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,440 knowledge. The challenge is how do we apply 459 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,360 that in a way that recognizes the differences in our cultures? 460 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,120 Because I found it was the cultures that were really 461 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:33,120 different. So again, I was doing this 2014 462 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,360 to 2018. So that's, you know, almost a 463 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,240 decade ago now. And at the time, what you would 464 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,120 hear was very much we don't need the government. 465 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:44,360 We don't want the government to stay the hell out of our way. 466 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,920 You guys will only slow us down. You guys will only inhibit 467 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,720 innovation because you just want to regulate. 468 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,560 You just want policy, you want oversight, almost the broad 469 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,000 premise that I would hear. On the other hand, I would also 470 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,360 say to them, look, in many ways we have a similar culture. 471 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:06,400 You and your workforce think they're going to change the 472 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,760 world through the power of technology, and my workforce 473 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,960 thinks it's going to change the world by creating a more secure 474 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,360 world. I said, tell me how 1 is good 475 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:18,280 and one is bad. Tell me how one is right and one 476 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,160 is wrong. I see two motivated workforces 477 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,400 that each want to achieve very valid objectives that they take 478 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,160 a lot of pride in and it doesn't mean one's good and one's bad. 479 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,200 So can we get away from this stupid simplistic narrative like 480 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,040 they said guys, I don't think that that's reality. 481 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,960 I don't think it really helps us. 482 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,120 Some were amazing individuals where you can see, wow, I can 483 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:44,040 see why you're the CEO of that company. 484 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,600 A couple of them I'm, I'm very fortunate to consider friends 485 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,320 because we create a relationship. 486 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,880 So I just value their insights and I just enjoy talking to 487 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,480 them. A couple of them, not unlike at 488 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,800 times people I've dealt with in the military, I just thought 489 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,640 were arrogant jerks, to be perfectly honest. 490 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,240 But it doesn't mean you can't be arrogant and can't succeed. 491 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,920 The world is full of arrogant people who have succeeded and 492 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,080 done well in their particular area. 493 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,440 And it's just my one person's impression, so doesn't mean it's 494 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,000 the right one. Yeah. 495 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,120 We can move on to another question, but I just want to 496 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,760 comment. I think it's so interesting and 497 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,800 surprising that I feel like, once again, you're talking about 498 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,360 this concept of bridging the gap between what would be considered 499 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,840 2 very separate goals. And it's just surprising to me 500 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,840 because, you know, like as a four-star Admiral, like you 501 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,320 would think that your personality would be much more 502 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,400 like, I have the solution, like I know the right way. 503 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,120 Yeah, but you're like the total opposite of that. 504 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:44,120 I am much. More look, I'll bring a 505 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,640 viewpoint, I'll try to bring some insights, but I don't 506 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,040 pretend for one minute that I can't learn from others. 507 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,960 I don't pretend for one minute that you can't bring value to 508 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,760 this conversation. I don't want to pretend for one 509 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,280 minute that there aren't things that we can't learn from you. 510 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,400 My view is, hey, come on. Particularly as leaders, I'm 511 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,800 going we want to, we want to promote and actually display and 512 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,920 live the values we're talking about workforce about. 513 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,600 So if I'm talking about workforce about we need to be 514 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,800 inclusive. We need to respect the opinions 515 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,680 of others. We need to actively look to 516 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,880 expand our partners. If if that's what I'm 517 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,480 articulating, then what kind of jerk am I to sit there and say 518 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,920 when I'm out in California, other places, I'm a four-star 519 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,080 Admiral. Here's the answer. 520 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,320 What? What the hell don't you guys 521 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,040 understand? I've been in national security 522 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,520 for, you know, 3 plus decades. That would be stupid. 523 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,040 I like. That. 524 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,160 So, Mike, now that you've moved into the private sector advising 525 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,680 companies and governments on cyber risk and technology, what 526 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,840 has been the biggest shift that you've witnessed? 527 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,840 You know it's. Funny in some ways. 528 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,600 In the military, high performing teams optimize themselves and we 529 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,600 spent a lot of time as leaders. How do you create teams that are 530 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,080 optimized to succeed in environments with high stress, 531 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,320 high levels of uncertainty, high rates of change, and often 532 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:05,040 incomplete knowledge of the environment? 533 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,840 And yet you're constantly culture, training, structure, 534 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,440 processes, you're trying to optimize yourself to succeed in 535 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,360 that kind of world. And I look at what's going on in 536 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,640 the world around us right now. And I will also say to business 537 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,920 leaders, that's the world you're living in right now. 538 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,600 So how what I found is some of the things that I learned in the 539 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,080 military to, to work and excel in an environment like that 540 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,240 translate very readily to the private sector and yet are 541 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,080 different when I talk to the private sector, when I talk to 542 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,480 corporate leadership and I'll ask them the journey they'd be 543 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,040 on and have been on. And how is the environment now 544 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,200 versus 510 years or when you were starting out as a more 545 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,560 junior individual in your particular business or field? 546 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,160 They have gone through significant change as well. 547 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,600 I mean, that's, you know, I, I, I look at the world around me 548 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,920 today and I say, look, high uncertainty, high complexity, 549 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,960 high interdependence and a high rate of change. 550 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,240 So you got to figure out how do you optimize yourself to succeed 551 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,440 in that kind of environment? How do you optimize the company 552 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,360 to succeed in that kind of environment? 553 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,400 Now that is a great leadership challenge. 554 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,960 I love that. The best part of being in the 555 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,840 military for 37 years, leadership, leadership, 556 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,600 leadership. I just loved working and 557 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,880 creating and being a part of strong teams. 558 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,800 And it's funny, people will sometimes ask me, you know, do 559 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,120 you miss anything about the military? 560 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,560 And I, I don't really in the sense that, hey, I did it for 37 561 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,880 years. It exceeded any. 562 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,880 I never thought I'd do. I'd do that for 37 years. 563 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,640 I will be a four-star Admiral. But the part that I think back 564 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,560 on the most fondly, it wasn't being an Admiral. 565 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,760 It was I loved being a part of teams of highly motivated men 566 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,920 and women who really brought the best out on each other. 567 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,840 Very focused on the mission, strong sense of right and wrong, 568 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,560 moral and ethical integrity, and always remembered it's about 569 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,080 service to others. Our mission is to create an 570 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,280 environment to provide security to others. 571 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,920 It's not about us. It's about the mission and the 572 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,680 men and women we serve in the nation that that it's not about 573 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,960 us. I love that that was the best 574 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,600 part of the job. And so that concept of selfless 575 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,720 leadership, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm a perfect 576 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,360 leader. Look, I have my imperfections 577 00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:29,120 like everybody else. There's no doubt about that. 578 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,880 But that idea of selfless service, that idea of, hey, it's 579 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,440 about others, it's not about you. 580 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,120 The more senior you get, I just think is very important for in 581 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,320 my experience, others might have a very different view. 582 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,640 But yeah. And it carries across all 583 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,800 industries. And remember, leaders, you 584 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,880 create the culture, yeah. The. 585 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,960 Reality is we look up the tree, we don't look down the tree very 586 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,040 much. People always want to know what 587 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,920 what are their bosses doing? What are they saying? 588 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,320 How are they getting promoted? What jobs did they have before 589 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,680 they got into that job? You know, what made them 590 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,680 successful? How did they get to be ACEO? 591 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,240 How did they get to be on a board? 592 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,960 You know, fill in the blank. Same thing in the military. 593 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,560 So I always would try to remind leaders, always project the 594 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,640 values that you want the organization to live every day 595 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,000 because you help set the culture. 596 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,760 And the most important thing is not what you say, it is what you 597 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,520 do. You can say everything in the 598 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,680 world you want, but if you don't live it, in my experience, it 599 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,480 just doesn't come across as very authentic and it just doesn't 600 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,040 have as much adoption. You know this is what? 601 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,240 I say to the guys that I date there. 602 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,960 You go live these values. Live it enough. 603 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,760 Sweet talk, let's see some action I want to see. 604 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,760 Outcomes I'm. Like this? 605 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,280 Sounds familiar? There you go. 606 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,120 Make it work for you, girl. Make it work for you. 607 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,720 Well, we say. You know tiger sisters about 608 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,200 money, power and love They're they're applicable. 609 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,920 They're really intertwined in a lot of ways. 610 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,560 Well, just. Remember, what's the most 611 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,960 important of those three? It's not money and power. 612 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,080 Yeah. It's your it's it's living your 613 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:07,680 life. Love helps build that. 614 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,960 Sense of fulfillment and purpose and the, the, the idea that you 615 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:17,280 have found someone or someone's like a family, you know, who are 616 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,120 going to give you something that you hope last your entire life. 617 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,280 Power goes, money goes. The one thing you hope you have 618 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,800 your entire life is love of the people around you, particularly 619 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,520 your family and your spouse. I mean, I always tell my, I'm 620 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:35,720 very fortunate. I've been married 40 years. 621 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880 We have two sons, very fortunate, very lucky. 622 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,960 But I always tell my sons, as important as family is, you 623 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,200 didn't get to make that choice. The one choice you're going to 624 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,120 get to make is picking a spouse. When you get it right, it can be 625 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:55,440 the most fulfilling, most supportive thing in your entire 626 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,640 life. It will lift you for the rest of 627 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,280 your days. You hope the perfect world. 628 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,440 Not that there aren't challenges at times, but but when you get 629 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,400 it wrong, quite the opposite, it can be among the most draining, 630 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,240 the most empty feelings in the whole world. 631 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,960 So I always try to tell my son. So that's the one to focus on. 632 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,960 Take the time, make sure you find the right one and you have 633 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,600 to find what's right, not your mother and I. 634 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,080 You have to find that. Apologize, but you didn't think 635 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,000 that you were going to get no I. Love that. 636 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,160 I. Want more love advice Mike? 637 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,840 Rogers I. Love that girl. 638 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,600 There you go. Who? 639 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,200 Knew it's a whole new line of work for me. 640 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,600 What? Advice would you give to people 641 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,640 in their late 20s or or mid 30s around love in addition to, you 642 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,520 know, making sure number one always be. 643 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,080 Open to it. Oh, number two, don't lose sight 644 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,760 of it. Look, we can all become very 645 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,440 busy, very focused on many things. 646 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,120 And a lot of times you're so busy trying to work in your 20s 647 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,760 and 30s, you're trying to create a profession, you're trying to 648 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,440 gain more knowledge and experience. 649 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,520 You're trying to build credibility, and that all comes 650 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:08,960 with a price. It takes a lot of time, a lot of 651 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,840 attention, a lot of focus. It's physically and emotionally 652 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,760 draining at times, and it doesn't always leave a lot of 653 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,120 time for other things in life. You know, as I. 654 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,000 Talked to my own children and I discussed this with my own wife 655 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,360 and say look and I'm a guy who was hugely into work. 656 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,680 I loved work and at times I spoke I focused too much on 657 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,320 work. And then on the other hand, I 658 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,200 managed to find a a great woman and we've been married for 40 659 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,760 years. Literally. 660 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,240 In about two weeks, we'll celebrate our 40th. 661 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,920 Anniversary. I met my wife in a bar, so it 662 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,320 just goes to show you there's no one particular venue or one 663 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,920 particular mechanism to meet the other one. 664 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,640 But this whole idea about be open, you never know. 665 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,720 You never know when it's going to strike. 666 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,720 I literally had this conversation. 667 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:02,280 My eldest is 37, not married again, he just hasn't found, you 668 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,080 know, someone who he thinks is worth pursuing to that level. 669 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,920 But I often say to them, you can have all the plans in the world 670 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,560 about work. You can have all the plans about 671 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,960 your professional development. You can have all the plans about 672 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,360 what you're going to do in terms of what you're going to buy, the 673 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,480 money you're going to make, etcetera. 674 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,080 But I would only tell you when you find the right one, the plan 675 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,760 goes totally out the window. All that matters now is I want 676 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,560 to be with that person as much as I can. 677 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,400 I will shift my priorities to do that. 678 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,520 I said it is the most amazing, most powerful feeling when you 679 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,800 find yourself in life where you find that love where nobody else 680 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,920 matters, nothing else matters. Yeah. 681 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,200 It's great. So my. 682 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,320 Take away is that you're saying I should go out to bars more 683 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,960 often, I should party more often. 684 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,920 You heard it from. The love, Admiral, you heard it 685 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,240 from the. Love Admiral, I'm going to be 686 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,840 telling my boss AKA Cherie the commander, the commander, the 687 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,680 commander, I'm going to be saying the Admiral said I need 688 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,000 to go but. One, it's interesting to me, we 689 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,560 have more contact with more people than ever before in our 690 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,840 lives. And yet one of my questions and 691 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,520 maybe just my generation is all of that really leading to 692 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,120 greater communication and greater knowledge and greater 693 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,800 awareness of the other individual. 694 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,400 Because I look at much of it and goes, this is awful, 695 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,639 superficial. This is awful, meaningless. 696 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,840 I said texting, posting images, that's not the same thing as 697 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,400 really communicating and getting to know somebody. 698 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,800 And remember, to find love. You got to get to know somebody, 699 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,639 not just how do they look, how do they dress, what's their job, 700 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,960 how much money do they make. I mean that I suppose those are 701 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,719 all factors in calculus, but they're not the most important 702 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,679 things. But you can't learn the most 703 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,719 important things if you don't actually communicate. 704 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,840 And the greatest communication comes when you're physically 705 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,240 interacting with somebody and no matter what venue you choose to 706 00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,720 do it in. And that's all I have to say is 707 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,200 love. Admiral signing off. 708 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,240 That's the love. Admiral signing off. 709 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,160 Incredible, got to do more podcasts. 710 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,280 Wow, this is. This is really I'm. 711 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,040 Loving it we have. One last segment with some 712 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,120 fortune cookies. They're Ice Breakers. 713 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,640 And so here we go. We have mild and wild. 714 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,000 You can choose one of each. OK, so here's. 715 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,520 OK, here we go. What rules do you secretly enjoy 716 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,680 breaking? What is funny in the sense that 717 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,720 although I was in the military, which is very hierarchical 718 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,560 there, there is a strong streak in me which my wife constantly 719 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,680 will highlight to me. I don't like authority and I 720 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,400 don't like rules. And I often tend to have 721 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,440 somewhat of a disregard for it. And my life will often pick up 722 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,520 on this. Well, you know, why'd you choose 723 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,920 the bureaucracy, like the Navy, like the military? 724 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,440 And yet so often times you don't like structure, You don't, you 725 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,360 don't like hierarchy, you don't really like rules. 726 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,560 I said, well, you got to, I like going to sea sometimes. 727 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,720 You just got to be willing to work in different environments, 728 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,920 different cultures to achieve what you want. 729 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,720 Now we're going to look at wild, wild these. 730 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:15,480 Ones are a little spicier and we. 731 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,640 Don't know? Well, obviously we don't know 732 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:18,800 what you're going to get. Here you go. 733 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,560 Here's the. Wild one for the love, Admiral. 734 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,520 What line should someone never cross with you? 735 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:29,520 Integrity. Me. 736 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,600 Don't ever lie to me. Don't ever, I'm like, come on, 737 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,760 man. We can certainly disagree, but 738 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,480 let's be honest and direct with each other. 739 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,760 And then the other one again, this is something my wife always 740 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,240 remind me I'm a big fan of. Look, the world works much 741 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,000 better when every one of us does our job. 742 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,920 So let's focus on doing our jobs, OK? 743 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,640 Everything works much better when we just do that. 744 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,120 Forget all the emotional and all that. 745 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,800 Can we just focus on doing our job? 746 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,720 It's very full. Circle they're back to the very 747 00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:58,720 beginning of our conversation. Well, hey, you've. 748 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,480 Got what you wanted out of it. That's yeah. 749 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,920 Thank you so much most. Importantly, yeah. 750 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,280 They taste. They're really good, actually.