What is it like dating as two ambitious women who are single
in their late 20s and mid 30s? Gina and I talked about dating
in our season one episode of Tiger Sisters, and now we're
giving you a dating update and also going to talk more about
relationships, how we see dating apps, our formula for dating,
happiness and balancing, feeling hopeful and also hopeless while
dating at this age. I'm Shuri, I'm Jean, and we're
the Tiger Sisters. With Valentine's Day coming up,
we wanted to do this special bonus episode for Season 3.
In addition to all of our amazing interviews, we kind of
thought we'd interview each other.
And this is a very, very highly requested follow up to the
earlier dating episode that we had.
So excited to get into it. And we'll get started right
after this break. Hey guys, quick break to let you
know that we now have merch on Sisters matcha.com.
We have sweatshirts and T-shirts that we designed ourselves.
Go check it out and please rate US five stars on Spotify and
Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important
for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters
Podcast. Thank you for your support.
OK, so we're going to start off with the roses and thorns.
So, Jean, what is your rose and your thorn?
OK, I'll start with my thorn. I have been having sort of a
bout of SAD seasonal affective disorder or seasonal affective
depression. I don't know, disorder I think,
but it's basically like the winter Blues, but it's actually
clinically, it's the clinical name for winter Blues.
And I remember I got it really, really badly back in Boston
seven years ago. And that was part of my
calculation for being like, oh, like, I should move to Los
Angeles after school. Like the land of where it's only
sunny, basically. But this year, this winter.
And like, I can't like a little bit down every winter, but this
winter with like the, you know, the fires in LA and then just
like kind of like running around and everything.
And you were sick for a little bit, too.
And I was sick. I had pneumonia from the fires.
I just have been feeling kind of like in a funk.
So I've been trying to do things to like, get out of it while
also not being like too hard on myself.
So that's kind of my thorn. So anyone else who goes through
who feels like winter Blues or you feel like you're in a funk,
I see you. I feel you.
You're not alone. We got this.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Do things that are like
rejuvenating for you. And then at the same time, like
what I'm trying to do is like push myself a little bit to do
activities even if I really don't want to 'cause I think
that's like one of the underlying feelings of like when
you're in the the sad seasonal faction disorder, like period.
You just like kind of don't want to do anything.
You feel like nesting and resting more.
Yeah, like you just feel like like you don't want to do
anything. Like you're like, oh, I can't
possibly bring myself to do this.
Or like you just feel like kind of like, you know, when you're
in your like ludial phase for women out there, when you're
like, I cannot for myself to do anything.
It's like feeling like that, like all the for many weeks on
it. So that is the thorn.
Well, you that's also we have bright lights on us to simulate
sunlight, which is one of the things that can help.
Sad. Yeah, get a happy lamp.
So you're saying I should record more episodes?
Jeez. She's trying to put me to work.
Maybe. OK, so that's the thorn, but I
have a fabulous rose, which is this past weekend, I went up to
Sonoma and had an amazing weekend away with four of my
girlfriends from HBS. And we basically, like descended
upon Sonoma from like I came from LA, my friend came from
Texas, one came from New York, and then two of them live in SF.
So like we all like, flew in from like all corners of the
United States. And it was just like the most
like rejuvenating, like wonderful weekend to like
reconnect. Yeah.
Like girl time is so special. Actually, one of the things that
one of my girlfriends said at the time, she was like, she was
like, you know, like women, girlfriends really carry you
through life. She's like, yes, there's men,
there's partners, there's, you know, you'll have your
boyfriends and your husbands. But she was, like I've always
said, like girlfriends carry you through life.
That's so Sex in the City. I really is that's.
What Charlotte actually said before, she's like, Oh my God,
what if we wear each other's Zumba?
That's so. Right.
And you know, guys are just, you know.
There. Yeah, yeah.
So like, not only was it fun and rejuvenating and like really
helped me like I almost, I almost, I really like for not a
split second, but for a moment in time, I really almost didn't
go because I was so like in my sad, I was like, oh, now I have
to like take a flight and like go.
And like then I was really sad. It was going to be rainy there
over the weekend because there, there was an atmospheric river.
But it turned out to be wonderful.
And also like, what's crazy is so the group of us like we
aren't always in like super close contacts.
So like we hadn't been together in person since last May.
And what is crazy is how many things like life changing events
have happened for all of us in the time between May and now
that like February or end of January.
It's like 8 months. Yeah.
But I was like shooketh like like major like life changing,
like health events, like it like near death health events like
like changing of like jobs, like, you know, a changing of
relationships, like so many things have happened.
And it's just like, I don't know, it kind of it really gives
you perspective in a way to to really share yourself like so,
so like deeply and honestly and like tell your friends like your
true everything that's going on and like vice versa.
It's just like. It's very special.
You can be open with a group of women who support you and
support you through like my professor Joel Peterson says at
Stanford, like he says that it will always, it will rain in
everyone's lives. Like the rain will fall is what
he says in everyone's lives. Be that like the death of a
family member, a huge health crisis, and you just need to
find support systems that will help you get you through the
rain. Because he's like, there's
nothing else guaranteed except for like rain in your life.
Yeah, well, but it's also, it's also really interesting because
like we shared these things with each other, but then also like
on the surface, everyone's life looks like amazing.
Like if you just were to be like not super close friends, but
like friendly with the person, you'd be like Oh my God, like
you're. Killing it, so many different
ways to do that and not know that like deep down there are
these like giant pillars that are changing and impacting them.
Yeah. So yeah, it's not all, like,
doom and gloom, but I'm just saying that like, it's really
special to be able to, like, share yourself fully with
people. And, OK, this is the other thing
is that they are all women that I deeply respect on, like, many
different levels. And like, I feel like I learned
from them. And yeah.
And it was also helpful to just go and kind of like plug into.
So one of my friends, she lives in San Francisco.
And so we, like, stayed at her place in Sonoma.
And it was just also really fun to like, plug into somebody
else's life for just a couple days and just like see how they
live and almost like learn from them in that way, you know?
Yeah, you get to live vicariously.
Yeah, a bit to be like, oh, like, I love your interior
decoration. Yeah, I love your style.
Yes. Yeah.
And it's also nice sometimes I think, for them to, like, see
your admiration of them, like reflected, you know, like,
you're kind of like mirrors of each other in a way, like real
friends. That's so special.
Yeah, so it was, I feel like a much, much needed weekend that
just so happened to be like at the perfect time.
And it was like a really, really good rose to like the thorn.
I was really happy you went to Sonoma.
And I actually told mom about it too, OK.
And she was. Really, Narc?
But and she was really happy that you were going too.
Oh, thank you. Yeah.
Like it's good for you I feel like to catch up with
girlfriend, especially ones that you you hold so dearly.
Yeah, yeah, it was really nice. So how about you?
What is your relative for? My Rosa is actually similar.
OK, yeah, it's not my like old friends, but it's new friends
that I've made in LA. We have a group of girlfriends.
There's like four of us and we are all the thing that has
brought us together is that we are all founders, Co founders of
CPG companies. So Gina and I have founded
Sisters Matcha, which is our Matcha brand.
We're drinking it right now. You might have heard from an
earlier AD that we put in there, but so Jean and I have Co
founded Sisters Mancha and then these three other women who are
in my like LA girlfriend group are also CPG founders and these
three women are brilliant, really special.
We have like so much to talk about of course, on the business
side because we all respect each other, but we all kind of have
different like specialties as well.
Like they come from different backgrounds.
One woman is in private equity. Another person used to work at a
larger like much larger, like food brand and the last woman
has experience working in like beauty, but at like a giant
beauty company. So like, it's so interesting how
we've come together and I really.
And then your tech. And then one was McKinsey.
Exactly, Tech McKinsey and then two of the women went to HBS.
They recently graduated my year. So we've also bonded and talked
about that. And that's actually how I know
one of them. And they're also like super fit,
really well adjusted, like go getters and super career driven.
So I really respect them as people too.
And I've talked to one of the women about like we talked about
like dating and guys and like, I can just tell like they also
really respect themselves a lot and have a very high bar for.
Themselves in all. Aspects of their lives.
And that just makes me respect them even more 'cause, you know,
we were kind of talking about boys at at one point and like
who this girl's dating and she was just like giving like a very
no BS response to be like, Can you believe he did that?
And she's like, that's unacceptable actually.
And like, I will not tolerate that.
You know, I was just like, yes, you know, I love no BS.
I love no BS the. Older I get the more I value no
BS. Yeah, I, I really appreciate
this group. And then this coming weekend,
I'm actually going skiing with one of the women as well who's
in who's brought me into her friend group here.
And so I, I, I so appreciate that.
And it just goes to show the power of female friendship, yes.
Well, I was just gonna say, like, the power of female
friendship is also there's something really special in,
like, the group where it's like you admire each person so much
in different ways, but then also it's kind of like reflects on
you as well. It's like you see their beauty
and their power and their, like, magnetism and their skills and
their kindness. And then it's also a reflection
on you. Yeah.
It's like it gets all of that goodness is also reflected back
to you. That's right.
But it's funny that you were like talking about how amazing
this group of girlfriends are because I also have like a newer
group of girlfriends in LA that like the the joke that we made
when we like first all hung out was like, we are like basically
the C-Suite of like a Fortune 500 company.
It's funny. They're all like 1 is like a
super successful, like lawyer. What?
Like I worked in product. 1 is a product designer, 1 is like a
marketing like CMO, like everyone is just hell yeah that
has their own lane is like amazing and.
Wait a second. Don't start a company with them
now because we're doing stuff, but consider it later on, yeah.
Yeah, but it was just like a joke that like.
Yeah, it was just, that's powerful.
Maybe your group chat should be called the C-Suite, although
that's like, kind of disgusting in corporate.
But like, you know that Gina and I like that shit.
So if you're here watching this, you like it too.
So got him. Or you will like it the more
episodes you watch. I'm looking at you.
OK. Wait, I kind of love this.
This episode was meant to be about dating in relationships.
And then I love how it's both of our roses were about Galentine's
Day. Yeah, and non Valentine's Day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do have a Galentine's Day planned.
Oh, so do I Actually, one of the women who's in the group of the
four of us is hosting a Galentine's Day.
See. Oh, I love that.
My girlfriend is flying in from Aspen for or Valentine's Day.
Are you guys hanging out on the 14th?
I think on the 13th, yes. 13th and 14th.
Wait. What are you doing on the 14th?
I was thinking about this. Should we do something together?
Maybe. Being busy, OK.
I'm not going to commit on camera.
Oh my God. All right, I was going to invite
you on a date for sushi, but never mind, you're paying.
OK. And then so I'll just wrap up
with my thorn. I've had, I don't know if it's
like persistent or acute, but I've been having back pain.
That is my thorn. She's only 29, ladies and
gentlemen. Guys, this is 29 they're.
One year early. 30 is coming up so soon and like, Oh my God, in
less than six months. Holy shit.
Wait, I holy beep. Oh my gosh.
OK, anyways, I have back pain. It was first first started a
couple of weeks ago when I was playing golf a little bit too,
like the activity was too strenuous.
She's playing golf like 3 days in a row.
Three days in a row I swing really hard and it was 25
degrees, 29° and then I've been working out a lot, so I've also
kind of like strained my back again.
She was playing sub freezing golf.
Yeah, so I think I need a chill. Yeah.
And take it easy. A little easier, no?
Kidding. I've been going to the gym like
for 10 days in a row, which I'm really proud of, but I think I
need to go a little bit easier and have more rest days, like
walk more, stretch more 'cause this is 29 1/2 guys so I need a
chill. So that's my thorn and I'm
trying not to get injured when I'm going skiing this weekend.
So I really, it's like on my mind, you know?
So that's my thorn. Yeah, don't be the one loser at
Deer Valley. I need I lost half a day of
skiing. That's such a good reference.
Does anyone know that reference? That's a reference to when
Gwyneth Paltrow had to go to court because she had a
collision with another person. I think someone collided into
her. Yes, but he still sued her,
right? And it was at Deer Valley, and
it was like. They're like, what were the
losses, man? She's like, ma'am?
And she's like, well, I lost half a day of skiing.
But what was iconic is at the very end after the judge ruled
in her favor and the man lost, she, I think she was wearing
this like, white suit, like a cream blazer.
And she like walked up to him at the end and she like, touched
his shoulder and like leaned into his ear and like whispered
something into his ear. And they walked away really
well. Apparently what she said was
like, I wish you well or something like that.
Like I hope you know you have a good life or something.
I did not know that I have. To look this up now to see
exactly what she said interesting.
But it was like, it was like a, a kind thing to say, but you
know, it could be slightly ominous too.
It's. A little bit threatening.
It's like, yeah. I wish you well.
And, yeah, like, I hope you have a nice life, you know, watch
out. You know, the undertones.
Anyways, let's dive right into the episode.
Yeah. And we'll get into the episode
right after this quick break. Hey everyone, quick break to
share something special. Sisters Matcha.
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for lasting energy and focus. OK, so welcome back.
Wanted to dive right into this episode and give you guys some
context. So Gene and I are going to be
talking about dating and relationships and romance and
all that stuff. But if you've been watching, you
know, season 3 of Tiger Sisters, you know our content is usually
very professional. In season 3, we're interviewing
investors, CEO's, founders, professional people.
Gina and I truly believe that Tiger Sisters represents the
whole self like we can talk about our careers, be super
driven and ambitious as the title of this, you know, video
says, But that also includes how it's going with relationships,
both, you know, friendships and romantic.
And we want to talk about this more openly with you guys.
It's usually not something that we talk about, but we hope to
inspire more conversation around it because it's the
conversations we're having with each other and with our
girlfriends. Yeah.
And I think you guys know that. You know, in the past, I have
kind of worked on being more vulnerable and more been for the
sake of this podcast. And thank you so much for all
the feedback over the last couple seasons in the comments
of saying like how me being vulnerable has helped you guys
in certain ways. That's really encouraged me to
continue to be open and vulnerable.
And also I was even more convinced that we should do this
episode when I saw the most recent Call Her Daddy episode
with Rachel Kirkconnell, who was the winner of The Bachelor I
think like four or five years ago.
And she and her partner Matt just recently broke up after a 4
plus year long relationship. And I didn't watch the whole
episode, but I watched some short form videos and snippets
of it. And just like through the course
of that and like hearing the conversation between Rachel
Kirkconnell and Alex Cooper, I just heard her say things that I
resonated so strongly with and I had never really heard anyone
else say. And she kind of verbalized
things. I'll give you an example.
So the strongest example was when she said she was like,
yeah, I just felt really sad because I imagined all these,
like, future children with Matt. And they were like, all gone.
And she was like, I don't know if that, you know, I don't want
to sound crazy. And then Alex Cooper jumps and
she goes, no, you don't sound crazy at all.
And that is something that's like a feeling that I myself
have had after the dissolution of my engagement and eight-year
long relationship. Like, you know, that was
something that for so long, for all eight years, I had already
like conceptualized a life and a future with this person, which
included like beautiful in my mind, children, beautiful
imaginary children that I had thought about for so many years.
And like, it was a kind of like a foregone conclusion.
And it was almost in a way like the, you know, the dissolution
of that relationship and engagement.
Like it wasn't just the relationship, but it was the
entire future life was just like kind of like poof, like up and
disappeared, including all of those like imaginary children
that I had had in my head for almost a decade.
So like hearing her say something so similar and then
hearing Alex Cooper be like, no, that doesn't sound crazy.
Like that was so powerful. And it really touched me in a
way where I was like, these sorts of conversations are
important for us to be having. Like they are pretty much like
equally just as important, I think as all of the
conversations we have about like career, growth, learning,
because, you know, the your life is like a holistic picture.
So yeah, I just think that maybe like to some people, these
conversations seem trivial or like not as important as the
ones that are more professional. But I have come to the
realization that they are just as important because these are
all the things that we're going through in life.
And that's my soliloquy. Thank you for the yes.
I mean honestly, like people say, the most important decision
you'll make in your life is who you choose to marry.
So I mean, it's the most. Important decision that'll
affect your finances, that'll affect, you know, your progeny
that'll affect your your progeny and.
It'll. Affect your immediate family it.
Affects your daily health because it's the person that you
spend the most meals with. Right, your habits too.
Like what are their habits? Yeah, if you go to the gym.
Yeah, or don't go to the gym, you know, if you guys are more
sedentary. I mean, it's just everything
becomes so intertwined. So it, it seems natural that we
talk about this. But I agree, like I don't know
why in society it has become more trivialized or like Zena's
like that's not a serious topic. But like if we're going to talk
about it in like kind of an academic way, guys, I bring up a
formula. I made a formula.
Like I am thinking about it in a much more like structured way.
Yeah, I think it gets trivialized because it's
considered like a women's topic. And not to say, you know, not to
bring up the patriarchy, but. But in the patriarchy.
But the patriarchy sort of like by default trivializes anything
that is like considered to be like a women's topic.
I mean in a like heterosexual relationship it I mean in every
relationship it takes 2 but in a heterosexual relationship.
Not in every relationship. Maybe 3?
Is that what you're? Getting oh, I was thinking some
people say they're self partnered.
Oh, never mind. You went down the number, I went
up a number. Remember Emma Watson said that a
few years ago? She was like, I'm self
partnered. I was like, I think she said
that in a Vogue article. That's some bullshit.
Just kidding guys. I read Vogue for the articles.
Yes. Sure, sure.
Like I said, there have been many, many requests for a Part 2
of our dating episode and one of the questions that we got from
the mailbag I will read out loud from boarding 711.
They asked. I'd love an in depth analysis of
what worked and what did not work in past relationships to
help inform the future. Great question.
That's great question. It's only.
Something that I've been thinking about every single day
of my life, and now I have a platform to talk about it.
Yeah. And so funny.
Actually, after our first dating episode went out, I think
there's like, close to like, 15,000 views on that episode.
Like a lot of my Stanford friends actually like, messaged
me because I think they were like, they wanted the tea.
They like wanted the the juicy, the sip.
OK, so this is Part 2 of that dating episode.
I just thought it was funny. I have been doing a lot of
reflecting, especially as, you know, the new year just
happened. And I was thinking about like,
what do I want for 2025? I want to be more intentional
with dating. And so I've been reflecting on
my past relationships and I've come up with a formula for
happiness. Roast me in the comments if
you'd like or. Provide for dating happiness.
Yes, yes for dating happiness, for a relational happiness.
Romantic relation happiness. Exactly.
First of all, this is personal. Like, I don't know, you guys can
listen to it and maybe if you it resonates with you, you can, you
know, adapt it to your life. She said.
Results may very This is not my professional opinion.
This is my only, you know, my only lived experience, but so
I'll give you guys the formula and I also like don't know if a
formula is like what you need for love.
Like it seems like love and an equation inherently do not mix.
Well, I think it's just for you, it's a, it's helpful as an
exercise to have a structured way of thinking about it as
opposed to feeling like, I don't know, there could be like 50
million inputs and how do you know what's actually important
and what's not important? And this is the way you've come
up with this formula is through your experimentation of dating
and what you've learned from your past relationships.
And then this is like a very structured way for you to apply
your learnings to like summarize and then apply your learnings
going forward. It's honestly like guardrails.
I feel like because I'm like, I kind of need these things to
feel fulfilled and happy in a romantic relationship.
So here's the equation. On the other side is happiness.
Happiness equals and it's three things that make up this
equation. The first thing is stability.
Second is what I'm calling juice.
And the third is an X Factor. So stability are all those
things that I feel like I need to feel very like safe and cared
for and a relationship. And a lot of these things are
what some people might call baseline, but I have since like
put it a label on it and a name like, OK, these are the things
that I need. So I feel like an example of
stability is like feeling prioritized, being like
considered and decisions picking me up, dropping me off.
Like taking the initiative to plan dates.
I want to be thought of when we're not together, showing me
that we're thought of. These are like things that make
me feel very safe in a relationship, psychologically
safe and also physically safe. And I think in my past
relationships I had felt not prioritized it.
It felt really bad. We had really good chemistry
juice, which I'll get it get into, but like, I don't know, I
just like didn't feel like they put as much time and energy into
the relationship as I was. So that's stability.
Jump in if and if any questions. I'm absorbing OK and juice is I
don't know if I need to explain this one.
It's just chemistry. It's just like, are you vibing
with someone? Are you calling it juice?
That's what my therapist called it actually.
OK. Like I described it to him and
he's just like, that sounds like juice.
And I was like, OK, do not like that word.
It's unusual, it's memorable. It's memorable.
OK. So we'll go with that.
Yes, so. Juice, juice.
But honestly, like, I wrote down all the things that are like,
juicy to me, and I wanna like, clarify that, like, none of the
things that I listed were physical traits.
It was all like, very much like, am I intellectually stimulated?
Do you have a good sense of humor?
Like, do I feel like very connected to you right now?
So juice is just attraction. It's attraction.
I do think it should include physical attraction though.
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
But I guess when I first thought about it like none of the things
were about physical attraction, but that needs to be added.
I think it's 'cause your definition of being physically
attracted to someone is not like so prescriptive, like it's not
like they must be brunette or they must be blonde or like
anything like that. So I think it's just being
attracted to someone. Yeah, physically attracted,
whatever it may be. Humor is a really big part of
what I find attractive to, and so having a good sense of humor
is definitely part of the juice. And the last is an X Factor,
what I'm calling an X Factor. I think even in my.
Platonic relationships like my best friends, my best guy
friends, best girlfriends have an X Factor about them.
They're just like really interesting people who are
passionate about something and they're like a subject matter
expert in something because they're just nerds.
They like, care about like, running or they care about, you
know, mountain biking or about, like content creation, like
whatever it is. Like, I think my friends are
just so interesting. And I think dating people who
are also interesting and have hobbies and are not just focused
about work is something that I've found very stimulating.
How are you going to like apply this formula?
I'm actually like have already started applying this formula
like day-to-day in like my interactions, Like I've gone on
like 2 dates and I kind of see where I feel very fulfilled in
the formula and where some things are lacking.
And actually last night I went on a date and I didn't tell you
this. I mean, I didn't tell you this
part, but we actually had a conversation where I felt like
part of the stability was lacking with this person because
of something they had done on a prior date.
And you told them? Well, they had asked me like, so
they had asked me like, I don't want to get too many details
here. The conversation led to us
talking about it actually. And I was like, oh, I didn't
feel so great when this happened actually.
And I was like, it's also part of my formula, which I like
mentioned, I mentioned it to him so he was familiar and I was
like, I didn't feel like super like comfortable She had.
Given him a. Rubric.
I had given him a rubric and he and graded him against this
side. Not exactly.
She gave him. She was like, these are the
areas in for improvement you will be evaluated against if you
want to be promoted. That's what you gave him.
But actually. What is it called when it's like
that list of like the document that the promotion write out for
promotion like promotion requirements or something like
that? Oh my God, you're so right.
Oh, it's like we call them career ladders.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. PM ladder or like PM roll or
roll ladder, these are all the requirements to get to the next.
Stage. I mean, I wasn't even telling
like it's I wasn't even telling him my equation.
She's like, it came out really naturally.
I wasn't telling him my equation.
So like to tell him I was grading him on it.
I was just sharing this like new thought that I had.
And then later on I was just like, oh, I'm so in my mind.
I was like, I'm so happy I told it to him because now I can
refer to like the stability element and something was
missing. And then he got it, you know,
like I wasn't putting pressure on him like to like be all these
things. I was just telling him.
But I'm really glad that I was, it's open about it cuz wow, we
are friends. Yeah.
And so like I was like this really interesting thing I
figured out and he was interested and intrigued by it.
Yeah, that's. Cool.
Well, so now he, he's like, I've told him that I felt like not
good. And then he's like, OK, well, I
like you and I want to change that and I want you to feel
good. Wow, these are really advanced
conversations. I know, and you know, that was
only like date 4. So now in the future to like
move forward, like he knows that like I need this thing.
He's like, let's make it happen, is what he said, which is also
not, I wasn't expecting that kind of reaction, you know, but
like also that was a positive sign.
Yeah, that's a very positive. Reaction.
Yeah to how they respond to my feedback.
My grading group wreck. Damn.
The OK, that's great. It's good.
I'm I'm glad. Isn't that insane?
Yeah, like a little bit. Insane.
I'm really glad that you already have an example of like how it's
served you. I wasn't ready to have that
example until like last. I didn't even know.
Yeah, like it just happened organically.
It's kind of cool. Yeah, I mean, I have another
example as well of this rubric. I was dating a guy for about
like four months most recently and you had to like take a
second to be like computing computing.
Who's she talking about? No names.
No names will be named. But I know who.
It is, but she knows who it is. So jealous.
I'm just kidding, but I mean, it's sister privilege.
It's sister, sister, sister, sister, sister privilege.
Yes, that's right, sister, client privilege.
And this guy is like basically perfect in all things stability.
I felt so cared for all the time like it was chocolates, flowers,
dropping off chicken soup that he made when I was sick.
Like this guy is like an. Angel, I was very impressed by
that. Yes, and as was I Oh my God, so
thoughtful dropping me off dinner.
Like I felt incredibly cared for.
But I think at the end of the day, there was a lot of
stability, but I didn't feel like there was enough juice
between us and like the stuff that we were talking about.
So in that way, like it wasn't very compatible.
He's like incredibly generous and nice and thoughtful and I
have nothing but good things to say about him.
But I think in terms of just compatibility, like it didn't
work out for the long term. That's also kind of why the
rubric started because I was just like, this guy is amazing.
Like the ultimate gentleman. The like made me feel so safe
all the time. I'm like, what's wrong with me?
I was like, why don't I like him more?
He's perfect, which is really tragic.
So and I don't think you can like force chemistry obviously
or like force juice. So that's actually the origin of
where I got this formula from. I needed to figure it out.
I was like, what else is important to me if he's
everything that I've ever asked for?
She did a root cause analysis, Oh my God.
Which is what we call, which is like what it's called in tech
when like after you launch a product and there's some sort of
issue, you kind of do like a root cause analysis to like go
all the way, all the way deep and like go like all the way
backwards in every single step you took to build that product
and figure out like what was the cause.
Also known in therapy as a presenting problem.
Because I went to my therapy. I went like I started going to
therapy again and I haven't been in like 4 years.
Because I was like. Therapist help.
I know we've. Talked in a long time, but.
I cannot figure this out on my own.
And you are much smarter than me, you know, and perceptive.
And so it was that like, there's nothing wrong with me, it's just
that I didn't realize there are other parts of the formula that
were equally as important. Yeah, or verbalize it, I mean,
yeah, you hadn't come up with a formula yet.
And then also I think as a result of your most recent
relationship before that you had over indexed towards stability
because that was the number one thing that was missing from the
previous relationship. Yes.
So that is kind of interesting. So I've learned all of my past
relationships literally in my entire life have had a lot of
chemistry and have been like super entertaining and fun and
like, they're just like really smart people.
We have a lot to talk about. Yeah.
But I just didn't feel that stability element like, and
maybe it's because we were never like super serious in terms of
like, we're going to get married.
Like I, I feel like none of my relationships ever got to like,
obviously the engagement conversation.
And so maybe it didn't need that stability element.
But yeah, all my relationships were very like fulfilling in the
mind, but not really the heart. I don't know.
Damn. You like that?
Yeah, it's just funny because you didn't mean to, but you
really RIP this guy. No, I'm just kidding.
You said a lot of very kind things about him.
Yeah, I think OK. For me, I don't have like as
structured an answer as you do. Sorry you haven't done 50 hours
of therapy to dig into what the hell is wrong with.
You I haven't done thousands of hours of therapy, but I still
have not come up with a formula. Maybe I can think about it that
way. It's an interesting exercise.
I think for all of us to be like, oh, if I had to come up
with a formula, what would it be?
Or like it's a good thing to react to for everyone because
like seeing your formula, then that's what will make everyone
else, including me, like think to be like, OK, how much do I
agree with like all of your components?
Which ones don't I agree with? Or it's a good?
Starting point. Also feel free to disagree, I'm
waiting for someone in the comments to be like ick a
formula. You can't put a formula on love.
Love is natural and I'm like bitch, I tried the natural way.
It's all working. Well, I mean, also I'd be very
interested to know what your guys formula is.
You know, like I'm, it's not like we're like experts in love
and relationship, but we're happy to share all the things
that we've learned and like how we've processed it and like how
Cherie is approaching in the future.
So anything you want to share, we're very open to hearing it.
Yes, and as you know, Jean and I read every single comment and
please keep encouraging her to be vulnerable and to open up and
we see all the people who are thirsting after her actually in
the comments. So keep it going.
OK, Thank you. Yes.
OK. So what are my learnings?
I think so one, I'm coming at it from I'm seven years older than
Sheree. So just by definition, I have
had more experience and I've also had a very long
relationship of eight years that ended last year.
So I think that's also like the main differentiating factor
between like our history is that I've had that like super long
relationship, you know, went through everything that got
engaged. Like thought that was the person
that was going to be my like forever life partner for a long
like thought that for a long time, quite a long time
actually. And I think like I, I don't know
if this is going to come across sounding really, really, really
basic, but I think my main learning from that was that it
kind of all goes back to your values and what your own values
are. Understanding the values of the
other person and then understanding what the
combination of those two are and how that plays out in a life
together. And like all of the sort of like
major life milestones and circumstances you may face.
So that's kind of like the. Broad strokes of it and it's not
just that it's not just like understanding your own values,
but I think like really taking the the time and like annoying
like effort to sort of like interrogate that and like
interrogate yourself, really like interrogate yourself,
interrogate that person and then like interrogate that
combination and like really like hold it up to the light and like
cross examination and be like. Stress.
Tested yeah, like yes, yes. Like does this really make
sense? Because I think it's so easy
like for me, I would consider myself to be a lover girl.
Like I antic. Yeah, I'm like very romantic.
Like I think it doesn't like present that way necessarily,
especially on this podcast because I because this podcast
is mostly about like professional stuff, but I am
like deeply romantic and. I feel like I don't know that
about. You.
Yeah, because like I feel like also like within our
relationship, I'm more of the big sister.
So like, I don't tell you everything, but you tell me
everything. I'll just get up and leave now.
Excuse me? Well, it's just like you haven't
known me my whole life, but I've known you your whole life.
Oh, just keep punching me while I'm down.
I got it. So, so, OK, So what I'm trying
to get at is what am I trying to say is that I thought that like
being deeply in love with someone and vice versa and also
like being best friends and like building up your life together
was the formula. Like I thought that that was all
that it took. But I think that like having
those sort of stress tests and like having those like
interrogation of the values early on, as early as possible
would have like really served me better.
I think a lot of it, I think it's having those conversations
and also seeing it play out in actions as well.
I think I am very gullible, which is why I've fallen for the
juice, as they, as I say, and the chemistry in the past, you
know, like I think. It's trying to make juice
happen. It's juice once again.
I mean, it's just, you know, when you kind of are like
intoxicated and yeah, like fun and their banter and their wit,
it's just like, feels like high school.
And I think I, I'm very gullible and I get pulled into that
having a stability arm, like Screech.
I was like, you might be a very good talker and you might be
very, like, charming, but like, I need to see action behind your
words. Like after we've interrogated
each other on like, oh, you say this is important to you.
Show me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is this OK if I bring up the book?
Sure it's related. OK, OK, and so there's a book.
So a person that I'm dating gifted me this book.
It's called 8 dates and it's like 8 dates to go on or 8 date
conversations to have. I've only gone on like a couple
dates with this person, so getting a book is kind of.
Is this him giving you his formula?
Oh, maybe. But it's, but it's in the in,
it's a whole book. It's a whole.
This is a lot of work. Yeah, it's a little bit like
homework, but it's interesting because I, I just started
reading this book and there's all these different chapters.
I see there's something written on the first page.
There's a message for her. Just kidding, you can't see it.
It's a personal message from this person that.
I can I see it later. Yeah, I'll show it to you,
sister to sister. Privilege.
Sorry guys, but you know how it is like you wrote me a personal
message, but these are to your point about interrogating a
person. The whole philosophy about this
book is that there are 8 dates, 8 conversation topics you should
have and it's whether you're in a relationship now or like marry
like it for all stages. Like these are things you should
talk about to set, you know, ground, understanding and also
come together reignite whatever. But here are the different
dates, and if things come up that you disagree with, there's
like a manual of how you're supposed to talk about it
actually. So the first one is how you guys
think about trust and commitment.
The second is how you guys address conflict.
The third is on sex and intimacy.
But but how are these dates? Or they're like topics to talk
about on each date. Exactly.
Oh my God. Yes, and the fourth is the cost
of love, work and money. How you guys think about that?
Date 5 is family, date six is fun and adventure, date 7 is
growth and spirituality, and date 8 is about your dreams
together. And so like you're supposed to,
I mean, in the beginning, in the prologue, it's just like, this
is how you're supposed to have a date.
It doesn't have to be an expensive dinner date or
anything. It could be a walk in the park,
but both be intentional and set time aside to talk about these
things. And it like literally gives you
this. Is some real Stanford GSP shit
here? Why I?
Mean, What does that mean? It's good if you're on the same
page. I could imagine if you were
another person, a different person, and this person gave you
this book on date or whatever number of dates you've been on,
like sub five. Like, I could see someone being
like, freaked out. Yeah.
And like, totally making fun of this person.
But Can you imagine that like some of your girlfriends being
like, he gave me a buck? Like WTF?
Like he gave you this is this is like basically a couples
counseling. Book it is It is a couples
counseling. These are not real.
They're just using the word date as like a marketing slash, like
a mechanism. But this is like truly like
couples counseling. This is very advanced.
Unfortunately, it's worked on me.
The book. I mean, I like this, the book
tact. Well, the book it's.
Well, 'cause I'm all, I'm all about like self growth and
learning. And I'm like, yeah.
Interesting. It is interesting.
And what it tells me is that
this person is very intentional about dating you.
Yeah, they're like, let's skip straight to the premarital
counseling. Oh, my God, You're right.
This this person is, he's interrogating straight away.
You're right. Oh my God.
And I didn't. Realize it.
I didn't even think of that, but this is what he's doing.
He's like initiating the mutual and self interrogation.
Yeah, right off the bat. Are you scared for me?
No, I think you kind of like this shit.
Yeah, I do. This is very, you know, touchy
feely. Yes.
And actually this person, which is the Stanford Graduate School
of Business class that is like famous, Yeah, where people who
are students, like, learn how to.
Talk about interpersonal dynamics and relationships.
And like, if I'm having a problem, how do I express it to
you? How do I make sure that you feel
heard all this? Stuff it's their most famous
class. Yes.
And I think I see how it's affected you.
Really. Yeah.
Wait, did I ever tell you that? So one of my ex boyfriends went
to Stanford GSB and he told me this was like back in like 2012
or 13. He like sent me notes from this
class and was like, this class changed my life.
Wow. He was like, you would love this
class? Like it changed my life, full
stop. Yeah.
And that was why I wanted to go to GSB.
We'll see how that turned out. She was rejected from GSB but I
went and she got to live vicariously through my tabs.
And she was rejected from Goldman Sachs twice.
She was rejected from Goldman Sachs twice.
She was rejected from Stanford School of Business once.
But look at her now. Look at her now.
But you know what? I might go back and be a
lecturer. Yeah, be a professor.
Yeah, one of my good friends is now a lecturer.
There, Yeah, which is so cool. She.
Teaches a class at the GSP. It'd be fun.
It'd be fun to Co teach a class me and you.
Whoa. Tiger Sisters takes.
Yeah. Academia.
That could be really fun. That could be cool.
It would just be this. It would literally just be this.
Just sit at the front and I'd be like, shoot the shit.
Hey kids, you want to know about dating your formula, the little
rascals? Although honestly, they would be
like into that, yeah, as a class, yeah, if you wanted to, I
bet if you like proposed a class that included elements of like
relationship and dating in long term, like they would be into
that. I mean, it's funny that a lot of
the classes that I've actually taken at Stanford were so based
around, like, life planning. Yeah, they have many classes
there. It's not even a joke.
We didn't have that at all at HBS.
We have life planning, like what happens?
I mean, you know, there's also a part of life planning is also
like the accounting and finance part of it.
There's like, oh, how do you create a trust for your family
like that stuff as well? Amazing.
Yeah. I wish we had that.
Yeah, we we did do an exercise where we wrote a tenure letter
to ourselves. That I will open in like 2
years. But this past weekend, like one
of my girlfriends at in Sonoma brought up she was like, God,
this like 10 year letter. She's like, I'm just going to I
know I'm just going to like RIP myself apart when I open it
because, well, not in like a joking way, but she was like, it
probably says like you're a billionaire who has like exited
5 companies and like you live on the shore of you know, like the,
the Floribama shore with your like seven children.
Like she was just kind of like starry eyed yeah, yeah And she
was the other a girlfriend who is a professor at GSB now.
She was just saying, like, the main thing that she's noticed
about the students is that they are so starry eyed and
optimistic. And she's like, I love that.
But also that's what we were like, yeah.
She was like, life's going to come at you fast.
I was watching our previous dating episode in preparation
for this one, and something that you said was that you were
hoping to meet someone like organically, like natural in
real life, and you weren't using the dating apps.
How has that changed? Well.
I do still hope to meet someone naturally, or I kind of just
think that that's what's in the cards for me.
But one of the sort of like New Year's resolutions I'd given
myself. Well, as you guys may remember,
I make like every year like a list of goals that I have.
And they could be like some really small goals or some are
stretch goals. And it's called like the list is
usually called like, you know, 35 things to do all 35 or
whatever. But then I actually write like
70 things. So then if I achieve half of
them, then it's 100%. Just a little bit of a little
hands, just a little insight into how my mind works.
It's sick in there, but one of the ones was I was like, OK, I
am going to like be on a dating app.
I'm going to download a dating app, make a profile and just
like be there because I think that like even if the you're
even if you don't ultimately meet someone on a dating app, I
think it's about like kind of like getting into the groove of
dating again. And so downloaded Hinge.
So that's where I've started and I just feel like it, it's like
it's a mixed bag. OK, so one thing I'll say.
So first of all, I haven't been on Hinge in like 10 years and
the premise has totally changed. Hinge used to be, it was called
Hinge because you were connected with people who you had friends
of friends in common with. That was the whole premise
behind the entire app and the whole name.
And like why it was useful because it was through a
connection you had. Anyway, that's totally out the
door. So it's like basically.
Unintended. Yeah, the hinge is gone.
Yes, the door, it's off the rails.
There's no, there's zero hinge. It's non hinged.
It's unhinged. It's unhinged.
God, that's good. That's the other name for our
podcast. Well, just for the dating
episodes. Yeah, true.
It's basically the equivalent of like what Tinder was 10 years
ago, and like everyone 10 years ago was like Tinder's, the crazy
app where you could be connected with anybody.
And that's what Hinge is now. It's the same thing.
That's true, member. Yeah.
The vibe is. Over it.
People say Tinder is for hooking up.
I don't think Hinge is really for hooking up.
I guess not. I don't know.
But like what it feels like to me using Hinge is this is what I
told my girlfriends. It's as if you were to like,
walk into the middle of Times Square in New York City, stand
there, and then talk to every single man or woman, but
whatever your flavor crossed your path and then, like,
consider them as an eligible romantic prospect.
Well, if you pay for Hinge you can also put in filters.
Though the filters are not. Filtering.
Filter enough. There's not enough parameters.
Oh, really? Yeah.
What would you add? Well, there's the friend
element. There's just like.
Connection. Yeah, so.
I think that doesn't work in their favor 'cause then it like
shrinks the people that they can show you.
But I mean, it doesn't work in their favor because they want to
keep you on the app, right? But it would work in the favor
of the customer because then you can have like a, a better set
for of consideration. I mean like, let's be real, like
the the incentives of the people that run the app.
Or to keep you on the app. Yeah, they don't.
They don't. Want you to find love.
They say they do, but they don't want to.
I'm laughing. I I'm laughing because I I as I
say this my like my like old Co workers like actually run match
group and hint. Well, if you're listening, we
have some feedback so. But actually that's what people
say, not to bring the professional element in here,
but this really famous investor named Andrew Chen from A16Z, he
says he will never invest in dating apps because the model is
completely messed up. Where like the outcomes of of
the customers, the positive outcomes lead to less time spent
on the app. So he will never invest in a
dating company. Yeah, not to bring in.
The professional answer this dating episode.
She had to talk about an investor.
I had to talk about a 16Z. What is this threads?
What is this Twitter? OK, so that's how the apps like
feel like to me. But I think it's still a good
and healthy exercise for me to start to do, and I'm going to
just kind of like take it as it is.
Yeah. Do you think you're going to
look in other cities? Because I know Hinge, you can
set your destination and other places.
Because I think LA is a little bit tough, quite honestly.
Because it is more like entertainment, like Bend to the
industry, like everyone works in entertainment, talks about a
certain thing, works in entertainment.
Yeah. Singer-songwriter.
Well, when I went to Sonoma this weekend, I did like set the
change the setting like just for shits and giggles to like pack
heights and like the the app is like there's like hundreds of
like hearts now. Like I can't even go through
them. Like I can't.
She has a, she has a backlog guys.
So if you. How did Gene recently?
Don't take it personally if she doesn't.
Get to you yet, It actually is. I should probably take some sort
of learning from this, but like it's shocking how or maybe
because I like made the parameters wider, I don't know.
But it does bring to question some sort of like product market
fit question? I what you mean with you?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's.
The product. Yes.
No, I think I mean SF is a different type of person for
sure. Yeah, I mean, just historically,
San Francisco and New York City are much more professional
cities. Yeah, San Francisco, like, even
by far. Because like, what else is the
the city known for aside from basically like tech, Tech people
who work in tech? Because in New York City there's
a lot of like, artists still. There's a lot of like people who
work in fashion. Well, that's professional, but
yeah, I see your point. Yeah, yeah.
Versus like it on top of the base, that is fine, it's true.
But in San Francisco, I think it's like the base is tech and
like, I don't know what else you would say.
It's like sprinkled on top of that.
Also, the ratio works in the favor of women in San Francisco,
whereas I've heard in New York there is way more women than
men. I don't know.
I just I was done fine in New York.
Yeah, 15 years ago. I enjoyed New York.
Yeah, 22 year old Jean enjoy New York.
So should I wrap up? Yeah, yeah.
What are your your finishing thoughts?
Hi. Sorry, I didn't.
I didn't mean this high so dramatically.
That was not planned. But I guess that's kind of how I
feel where it's a mix of feeling hopeful and really excited about
the future. Yeah.
Because like, there's nothing like being in, I don't know, the
beginning stages of what could be love.
Like I think that what a beautiful time.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
One of the things I said to my girlfriends this weekend, who is
also sort of like newishly single, is that like, what is
exciting is that we get to, like, go through that experience
again of falling in love and like all of the, like,
everything that comes with it. And it's like, I guess I never
thought I was going to experience that again.
And it is a really like, it's the spice of life.
It's so beautiful. It's the, it's the, it's the
everything. It's like the, that feeling.
It's the juice of life. Look who's the juice now?
It's the, I'm trying to help her out.
It's the juice of it's what makes life juicy, you know?
What a fun feeling. It's not even fun.
It's fun. It's just like, beautiful.
It's exhilarating, the arc of like hope and like everything
and like projecting forward and before the interrogation, before
you interrogate, well, I. Told you guys see I this is how
you. Can this is how you know I'm a
romantic because these are like the things that like I think of
and I'm like excited about, but you know, balance it with some
interrogation, self interrogation, mutual
interrogation and then. Yes, so I feel hopeful for all
of that stuff and at the same time, not to be a downer, but
like sometimes, I mean, as you can tell, like feeling a little
hopeless. And I don't think that's a bad
thing. Like I, I mean, of course I have
the existential dread that I'm like, Oh my God, maybe I'll be
single forever or like a very long time.
And then that like sits with me, you know, like I, I would be
lying if I said I wasn't there. But then at the end of the day,
I guess I don't feel that bad. Like I think maybe deep down I'm
like quite sad about that thought.
But like if I were alone for the rest of my life, like I have a
lot of fun with myself. I don't.
Know like I love so many different activities and things
that I do. I really enjoy life.
I enjoy like food and like, would it be that bad to be with
myself? No, like I've already done all
the work to be by myself and I love my alone time.
And that doesn't mean like, I want to be alone forever, but
like, and she's a really good cook.
I can survive. You would eat well yes I 40
fruits and veggies every week but.
So I don't. Know it's kind of balancing both
and if you guys feel similarly, please let me know because it
can feel a bit lonely, but I don't know it's a mix.
I think that's maybe that's what the juice of life is is like
being able to hold both at the same time being hopeful and also
hopeless. Oh, I thought you were saying
like having. Your, like, independence and all
the things that make you you and being happy, but then also being
able to, like, combine that with someone else's.
It's probably both too, yeah. I think maybe that's what like
life is about. It's about holding both at the
same time. Yeah, what both is is up to
your. Interpretation.
Both of that and both of this, yeah.
OK. Yeah, I just remember there's
like so many other topics that we didn't get to today.
We should totally do a second topic because I think that
there's a lot more sort of like practical advice or like stuff
that we can talk about. Like I didn't even, I meant to
talk about, but I didn't even get to talking about like egg
freezing. I think like that.
I'm just thinking about that. I think we should do an.
Entire episode on like what is egg freezing?
Should you egg freeze? Should you freeze your eggs?
Practical steps like biggest regrets.
Oh, it's not too late, but it's one of my biggest regrets
because I don't have. Corporate funding from.
Yeah, well, I've heard different advice on that, so we can tackle
that next time and maybe I can let you know why you don't need
to be regretful. Oh, thanks.
But I won't I. Won't tell you until the next
episode. Sit with that.
So stay tuned, we have a lot more.
To discuss and if you guys have any ideas or thoughts or
comments, please leave them below and maybe we'll
incorporate them into next episodes.
Mailbox. Please stay tuned for the rest
of season 3 of Tiger Sisters. We have some incredible
interviews with our guests and Gina and I do takeaways and
learnings with those episodes and we're so good sprinkling in
some special episodes like this one and open to any other.
Topics that you have. OK, thank you guys so much for
being here. As always, please like, comment
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And until next time, bye bye.