I was born in a refugee camp. I grew up in a what I could
consider the ghetto. I was the only Asian kid in
elementary school and I rolled with a lot of gang bangers.
This is like the age of 1011. Committing crimes.
It's kind of ridiculous to an American that depression is.
I don't understand what that is and its own head because
everyone else in the world, they're so busy dealing with war
and famine and like where to eat.
Like you, you'll have time. We have the luxury of time to be
depressed. I have my opinions on things.
I'm willing to change my mind and be OK with it the update,
but I believe what I believe. We live what's in a post truth
world on such thing as truth anymore.
Just admit that you know that I know that you know that you know
we're selfish people, right? We'll be OK.
But if you pretend that that's not the way it is, I read it as
the best place of like deep OCD information and we'll have OCD.
And then I tell, I was telling a bunch of investors today, like
having business culture, our brands, It's actually not that
hard. A brand is if you jumped on
their social on TikTok or Instagram and you read the
comment section, does the people treat them like customer service
or they're fine? Who is the crazy genius behind
iconic companies like Dollar Shave Club and Liquid Death?
In today's episode of Tiger Sisters, we talked to Peter Pham
who's the Co founder and partner of Science Venture Studios.
I'm Cherie. And I'm Jean, and we're the
Tiger Sisters. Welcome to yet another episode
of Season 3 of Tiger Sisters where we've been interviewing
founders, CEO's and other business leaders and just
sharing and basking in all of their amazing.
Using learnings coming up, we have our interview with Peter
Pham and right after that, Gene and I go through our takeaways,
basically the learnings and we discuss them in a Business
School case study method. All right, we'll head to the
interview right after this break.
Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on
Sisters matcha.com. We have sweatshirts and T-shirts
that we designed ourselves. Go check it out and please rate
US five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
These ratings are so important for the distribution and
survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast.
Thank you for your support. Peter, let's start with some
ASMR. So we're just going to open it.
I'm Peter Pham, I'm the Co founder and managing director of
science venture studios. We're a venture firm out of LA
and incubator of sorts with we help create companies like
Liquid Death, which we just opened, a fresh can of Dollar
Shave Club, Dog Bay K, which Rover might like to say deal in
culture and invest in things that I think people will use.
That's so good. What podcast are you listening
to right now? So there's two I subscribe here
to try to listen to. It's all in pod cuz I think most
people in tech deal on Fridays and also there are some of my
friends on there. Matt Wolf is an AI podcast.
He's does a really good kind of once or twice a week in his
weekly summer of like everything going on in AI.
How long is that one? 24 minutes on average, sometimes
15. It's really really doable.
I listen things at one point 5X so.
Yeah, so 24 minutes are like, you know, .7 mile drive. 20
minute VC is the other one. It's always nice to learn what
my peers are doing, what LP's are thinking.
Harry Stebbins is a friend and also just like good human.
But I think it's a fascinating insight of like, what we do is
for a living. Good recommendations.
OK, as a kid, were you a rule follower or a rule breaker?
I was so I was born in a refugee camp.
I grew up in a what I consider the ghetto, a city called Santa
Fe Springs and then Norwalk in California 7 with less in a one
bedroom apartment. My report cards were like
default Spanish. So that's like I was the only
Asian kid in elementary school. I rolled with a lot of gang
bangers, so I did a lot of things that I should have been
done. So rule follower.
Yeah, a lot of bad things. I was young, very young, but
looped out. This is like the age of 1011,
committing crimes. It's kind of ridiculous.
Pre juvie. Yes, way before juvie.
OK, well what about now? Do you consider yourself rule
follower or rule breaker? Rule breaker I I I think rules
are a construct like this, right?
And I think media and pop culture is kind of defined by
what everyone else tells you it's supposed to be.
And so I find myself just first principles more of like why and
asking, always asking the why and does it make sense?
So whatever the rules are, it's just like, well, if it makes
sense, sure. But if it doesn't make sense, I
don't mind challenging it. I like that.
OK, so let's get into how How old are you?
Asian, I don't raise them. How did they say?
I know you're you're you're my he's my boss boss.
OK, well suffice to say you're older than me so I can ask this
whole question of you. It's a very good chance I'm
older. Than you OK so.
I may act a lot younger though. Eternally youthful.
Yeah, I'm the. Same.
OK so then I'm 35 now, So what advice would you give your 35
year old self? So turns out I am Buddhist.
But, you know, growing up twice a year going to top line.
And I was just at a retreat this last weekend, spent some time
with some Mongolian Buddhist mosque.
Amazing. And removing wanting in my life
has been the biggest thing. So yeah, so I think about
wanting it means that you're probably not happy until you
think you get this thing. Yeah.
But like, be present, be grateful for like everything
that's happening in the now and good things happen to you.
The other would be my super powers have a terrible memory,
right? Like just absolute terrible
memory. Which means if something bad
happens to me, I kind of know I'm going to forget it.
Wait, I'm the same way. But you know that people say
that that's a reaction to it's PTSD.
No, I. People say it's like your way of
like dealing with like childhood traumas.
Maybe it works for me. I mean, like it's something bad.
I think to myself, well, I'm not going to remember this, so why
wallow it, right? So know that your future self
will always forget that thing that just happened.
So why spend any time on it? Because the energy you put off,
nobody wants to be around you when you're in like sad things,
right? And so that and then the other
thing is know your worth truly. I know it's always easy to say
these things like, you know, do what you truly love, but you got
to pay rent. You know what give up a little
for that. Maybe move in with your parents.
Like, yeah, it turns out if you love what you do, no matter what
it is, you will win because your competitor.
So for this supposed job, nine to five, they're done 5:00
Fridays, they're done. They don't think about it 24/7.
And. And when you show the love for
that thing, people want to help you.
So there's a human thing about human nature where when you see
somebody maybe on the street and they're playing their harder on
panty, like you just want to give them one.
You meet somebody and they say they're an artist.
Like you just want to help that person.
Because if you think about it, most people don't follow their
dreams. So they see a little bit of you
in their dream and they say, I want to help this person live
vicariously. If I can help you achieve your
dream, at least, you know, I, I was my past name to be a doctor.
I really wanted to be a whatever, if they see you, they
just want to help. And So what I found is like, you
just love what you do. It doesn't feel like work
anymore. And then you kind of walk life
24 hours, seven days a week thinking about that thing.
So you don't necessarily need to be the smartest person in that
subject or whatever it is that you do.
But if you love it, it inherently shows that people
want to help you out and you have the advantage of basically
thinking about it 24/7 and never.
And it doesn't feel like work. Love it.
Yeah. That is totally something that
I've noticed. Cherie and I were just talking
about this the other day that like I feel like now that I'm
actually putting out there what I'm really passionate about,
which is our start up sisters, like people are reaching out and
like want to help and I you're genuine.
Yeah, because also like, inherently they're like, OK, I
know you're like legit, but then you're not only legit, you're
like really passionate about what you're working on.
And they get like, excitement from that.
They want to be a part of that. Too anybody wants to be.
It's look, it's human nature to support sports teams.
You think about why sports teams like you're rooting for them
even if they lose, like you're just rooting for the winning
moment. And if you feel like you are
part of it, that's, you know, you don't get that in life.
You don't get to feel like you're winning every day.
But if you're a part of a lot of people who win, I help that
person help that person. Like I'm winning every day
because that helps so many people.
So I just love helping people because like, I'm winning every
day. Yeah, OK.
I actually I think that's your superpower.
You said your superpower is forgetting.
And so less superpower. What drives and motivates me is
my happiness is driven by other people's.
So I'm I want other people to succeed.
I want them to be happy. I want them to do be the best
themselves. I want them to success.
And if, if they're a good person, I can help in any way be
a part of that. Like that makes me happy.
That's it's, it's, I have whatever I have everything I
need, I'm very happy with. And so it's it's really about
helping people achieve the thing.
And that hurtness drives me happy.
So COVID was terrible for me not being around people.
And it turns out my job, which is helping entrepreneurs become
the better version of themselves or building the company that
they've always imaged, is like, perfect for me because yeah, my
motivation is them succeeding. I learned that well and so then
wait back to your original thing you said your advice to 35 year
old you would be to let go of wanting.
Let go of wanting a little bit but.
But if you had done that when you were 35, would you still be
where you are today? Or do you think it was like the
wanting was like an apparent? Part of it is I have a terrible
memory, son, and part of it is you.
Plead the 5th. Well, I also believe that we are
where we are where we're supposed to be.
We are always where we're supposed to be.
So there's no, I don't have regrets of things.
Rethink things. Yeah, I could have would have
shut up. But it's OK.
It all is amazing, right. One of these things about
spending time with these Buddhist monks, He's he's like,
yeah, I travel all over the world and I think to myself,
it's an American. They have depression.
It's like, I don't understand what that is.
And it's all in your head because everyone else in the
world, they're so busy dealing with war and famine and like
where to eat, like you, you don't have time.
We have the luxury of time to be depressed.
So in the same vein for me, it's like, it's amazing.
Like hell, look at us, we're in a five star hotel right now.
Are you kidding me? We are it's.
Amazing. So yeah, I was wondering.
I had nothing was like, it's a knowing and having empathy and I
think travelling helps like to see poverty etcetera.
But also I grew from nothing, you know, typical American Dream
type of stuff. Yeah, it's just.
Be grateful. OK, Well, then, Speaking of
travelling, OK, you have a travel recommendation.
What's your favorite city to travel to when you're taking a
break from work? I so I never, I rarely visit the
same city twice. Oh, OK.
And my general travel is like 2 days in a city and hop to the
next thing you know, I'm the and if you watch national lampoons,
you know, they'll walk up to Mount Rushcard and say, alright,
let's go. I'm that person.
I just if I see I'm done I'm I'm out and I love an ADHD.
Cam. Massive ADHD so I just like
consuming a lot and so I don't think I have a favorite place.
Recently I went to Vietnam. I'm getting to me.
It's my first time I know, but also on my giant amongst my
people. Turns out average height I'm
511. The average height's like 5.
That was amazing food culture and then US.
I've been I love travelling through the Midwest national
parks. I was just in Nebraska last
weekend. Oh, I've never been It's
beautiful and also getting away from this the coastals.
So again, if I I invest in culture build, if you just pay
attention to what happened in LA, California, New York, like
you have no idea what's happening in the world.
So travelling to Kansas City or Oklahoma, Nebraska, Idaho, I, I
just, I really enjoy. Different places.
Well, does it help you then in your work?
Like you feel like you expand your world.
It's asking questions, it's being curious and and again,
having empathy. Like what's really driving their
day-to-day? They have time to spend time on
this thing. Do they have money to spend time
on this thing? Is it important to them?
Yeah, Yeah. I think you can also spend a lot
of time on that on social media. So my other recommendation is
outside of travels, your feed and my feed is different.
Reset your feeds. Oh, reset your TikTok and
Instagram feeds. Start over.
Search for things that you don't normally search for, and the
algorithm will start feeding you content that you've never seen,
and it really gives you a better understanding of like everyone
else, yeah. So are you also chronically
online? Of course. 24 cent, Yeah, I
again, if I don't participate in culture, I can invest in
culture. That's my cat thesis.
What's your your social media platform of choice?
Different things for different things.
So like I think X for real time information, Instagram for a
specific demographic for like music culture and then TikTok is
kind of everything, right? So people think that TikTok is
just for a small demographic. It's different.
When you use TikTok, if you want to be into home repair, you can
have hours upon hours of content of like home repair, interior
design or making clothes or jewelry or girls dancing or
music, doesn't matter. And so I think it's about
spending time there reading commits.
And then? YouTube, of course.
YouTube is television, Tiktok is television.
And then I as we're. Simpatico, we're in the same.
I feel like there's like a group of people that are like, YouTube
is television like, creators are the new brands like and.
Then Reddit, Reddit is the best place of like deep OCD
information and I have OCD. And then I tell, I was telling a
bunch of investors today, like how do you invest in culture?
Our brands? Like it's actually not that
hard. A brand is if you jumped on
their social on TikTok or Instagram and you read the
comments section, does the people treat them like customer
service or their friend? Oh, and the it's there and you
can read it. And I was like customer service
and they're just complaining about like whatever.
It's like Lily, it's customer service.
The only there's like a brand where they it's like your
friend. And then if someone digs them,
they defend you and they're like, Oh, no, you're wrong.
You don't That's the brand. What's a?
Good example look what. If you jump on Liquid Death on
our TikTok, Instagram and look at any comments, they treat us
like their friend, maybe talk to us.
They, it's like they laugh with us, they pack jokes with us and
if someone comes in and kind of like makes wireless, they defend
us right And then and that's. By design, you built that up
like it doesn't just happen American.
Airlines, it's like it's just customer service.
Yeah, so it's Give me 20. 5000 it's just.
It's just a lot of complaining. It's just like, get back to me,
DM me. It's so customer support versus
like a friend is a way you would as an investor look at is a a
durable brand because relationships last longer than
customer support. And so how do you, what's the
key to that? How do you build that up?
It's. Easy as it is, everything I get
the word on authenticity start around.
But I think fundamentally, yeah, you, you.
I always say, you know, we Dollar Shave Club was one of the
first brands we helped build. Consumers are smarter than you
think. They know they're being marketed
too. So like so if you look at like
we treat the audience like they're in on it, like we don't,
we know they know, we know that they know that the marketing and
don't take, you know, don't take that, but also pick a position
and own it and stand your ground.
Don't waver. Don't.
And just be OK with that because at the end of the day, as we all
know, someone's going to hit you.
And if you flinch on that reaction, like, you'll get
destroyed, Yeah. I mean, that's something we've
learned through you will posting all the time, always.
There will be, I call it 2 to 4% of the population just loves to
hate things well. What I say to Shreya is I'm
like, the haters actually love you the most, of course, because
they follow you. They're obsessed.
With you and. They write the hater comment
because you're 99% more likely. You're 100 times more likely to
respond to the hate comment. And and you're fueling them by
reacting, right? They're they're instigators.
And so remember in high school, like you had, human nature
doesn't change. Like you remember in high
school, you had the instigators. Yeah, those people are now
online. And they can just do it at
scale. They will always exist.
But if you ignore them, you ignore boys.
Eventually they're just boys somewhere else.
So, you know, life lessons, human nature doesn't change.
That's why I love culture. Like the humans.
We, we're like Maslow's hierarchy, like it's kind of
everyone's pretty much selfish virtue signaling's upping,
right? You just just know it and know
that if you just admit that, you know that.
I know that you know that, yeah, we're selfish people, right?
We'll be OK. But if you pretend that that's
not the way it is. I feel like you're kind of like
the culture personified. What do you think about that?
I you know, again, it goes back to not one thing is also in the
same sense of like I have my opinions on things.
I'm I'm willing to change my mind and be OK with it and
update, but I believe what I believe, right, and pop culture
is changed significantly, right? I think we live what's in the
post truth world. There's no such thing as truth
anymore. Doesn't there is literally no
such thing as truth. Whatever you believe is what you
believe. I can't change veggie otherwise.
And there's multiple versions of the truth and it's all about
perspective and and it's really fascinating about like how you
get information now. There's so many channels to get
the information that you actually wants.
And the way the reason I say pop culture in a lot of ways is that
the one I I actually don't think there's ever going to be a
Madonna, Michael Jackson, Dre's like music anymore because your
algorithm and my algorithms different for me listing.
And so we do you guys anybody know what the number one song is
this week? No, I.
Literally like 2 last night, No, two days ago I played diet Pepsi
for someone and you know the as in Ray song and he had never
heard it before. And then I was like and then I
played bed chem and he was like, I've never heard this song.
I was like, huh, I was like who? I was like, who are you?
Like, do we just have like different?
Algorithms 0. Overlapping there was. 2000 I
thought it was like 2000 songs. Last year I had a. 100.
It's algorithm and I don't think it's funny.
Think about how many artists you listen to today than you used
to. Yeah, I don't think back 1015
years ago you listen to like 10-15 artists.
Now it's like 100 more and it's maybe one or two songs full
albums. Nobody really listens to all
albums anymore. There's a couple, right?
But again, if you look at The Who they are, it's the big
artists that were kind of pre breakout in Spotify.
So you know Taylor dropped nine albums before Spotify, right.
So like that's why but there won't be another text left and I
just say. OK.
I think we have time for one more question.
OK. What are you most looking
forward to for conference or like what is the most valuable
part on this 2024? I've probably attended more
conferences than probably anybody in Silicon Valley.
And like what? Bold claim.
Trust. Me.
I'm talking like Mike Arrington Tech Crunch in his apartment
when he launched Tech. Crunch every.
Conference, Wall Street Journal, All things the Fortune, like
literally, you know, Goldman Sachs Internet Conference.
And it's really interesting, like the timing of conference,
which started last year and this year.
It's A next generation of conversations.
It's always, it's always been about the people.
It's always about like, you know, the late night
conversations, the conversations at the bar, you know, we're in
this room till 1:00 in the morning.
It's like building these relationships.
And what's interesting in Dallas, it's a little bit away
from the noise. It's purposeful.
People feel out here, you're going to spend time with them.
Then I like the different perspectives of three Star
Admiral to, you know, head of Snapchats and speaking right now
or head of Discord and AI Insight.
It's real, I think real conversations.
And so like anything over the 20 years I've been attending,
quote, tech conferences, it's about the people.
So being my second year, it's nice to like have that familiar
phrase of somebody met last year, maybe I spent 2 minutes
saying hi, but like, we talked maybe 1520 minutes this time.
And now I get to know them. And by next year, like it's
cool. And I think fundamentally this
goes back to being happy and wanting to help people.
The the, the key to all conferences, if you do
consistency and it's a great group, you fundamentally just
want to help them because you're that means you're going to work
together, which means this doesn't feel like work anymore,
'cause I actually like hang out with you, yeah.
Yeah, like building things with your friends is the best feeling
ever, is the best feeling ever. And I think.
What's great is like I met Emron, but when he first joined
Snapchat, so Evan Speedball 1716 when he came to town, that was
showed me an e-mail saying, hey, show them around town and it's
like, well, all of it's just relationships 10 years in 15
years in. I mean, I would say downstairs
there's 20 people that I've known for 15 years, right, and
some and a lot of new people that that I'm like, oh, I could
totally see doing business with them or not, or just hanging out
and learning, right. I'm learning about fastening of
business earlier today about he's the largest mid spot owner
in America. Oh wow.
Like I love learning about this. Like to me, that's the other
thing I'm learning about these businesses.
It's like, OK, so now how how could I think about what's
happening in his industry? Maybe there's a company we can
build and invest in. I met a woman who runs all the
NIL athletes. Yeah, super.
I learned a ton. And it actually, I walked away.
Like, I think I can build a business around what's happening
in the industry. So for me, it's learning things
that nobody else just talking about, but it's real big, huge
industries. Yeah, the Silicon Valley
generally kind of ignores. But I think with AI things
changing you could build businesses around.
I love it. That's perfect ending.
Wow. I think that was one of the most
candid conversations. Super changing.
Yeah. Yeah.
He just. Peter really just put it all out
there, which I love. It was like kind of spicy at
times. Really good advice.
I I really enjoy that conversation.
It's. Definitely spicy and we'll get
to the takeaways right after this.
Hey everyone. One quick break to share
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for lasting energy and focus. And I.
Think I, I think it was also such a good conversation because
he really made me feel comfortable.
So then I was able to more like be myself, and then it was just
like a very free flowing conversation, yeah.
And I also think it's really best when a lot of the
interviewees go into their personal backgrounds as, like, a
way to set up the conversation because you can better
understand, like, the context, how they grew up, how they think
and what informs that. So I thought it was really
powerful when Peter shared that, like, he basically grew up with,
like, very little means and like a refugee.
Yeah. I wrote down what he said.
He literally said I was born in a refugee camp and grew up in
what I considered the ghetto. Seven of us in a one bedroom
apartment. He also said I rolled with a lot
of gang bangers. I don't even remember.
I don't know if you caught that part, I did.
But I also didn't. I don't even really know what
that means to be honest. Like he was doing illegal,
nefarious things as a gang versus a gang.
Oh, it's just like a, it's just like a way to say like gang
members who are like doing bad things.
But he said at the ages of 10:50, I was committing a lot of
crimes. So he was a literal rule
breaker. He was a.
Rule breaker, Like were you a rule breaker as a child?
He's like, let me tell you, committing some crimes.
But I mean, I thought, I think it also goes to show, like, his
background, how he grew up and how it informs who he is now
and, like, how he sees the world.
Yeah. Exactly, like not to
psychoanalyze our new friend Peter Pham, but I do think that
knowing his background, it makes so much sense why he is the way
he is today. And like one of the things that
really stood out to me is that OK?
One, he said his self-proclaimed superpower, which I think is
just one of his many superpowers, is.
He said. I have a terrible memory, which
means that if something bad happens to me, I don't remember
it and I figure I'm not going to remember it anyway and so I'm
just going to forget it, yeah. Memory of a goldfish.
It serves people well. I mean, it seems like there's a
bit of a trend in the conversations we've had in
Season 3 with our guests where like a lot of them are just like
have a short, like they're like have a short memory or if you
don't have one already developed one, just like forget easily.
So then you can move on and keep iterating, yeah.
I think for Peter it also goes along with his kind of like Zen
personality, which maybe is derived from his Buddhist
background, which he also referenced.
I do. See Peter as being like one of
our more spiritual guests and like I hate using that word.
I feel like it's like used overused.
But like he talks about like meeting up with Buddhist monks
literally. And also like what's for me will
find me like kind of that mentality of like life is for
living well. His advice for like who is it
that I interviewed him, right? Oh yeah.
His advice for his like 35 year old self or to other 35 year
olds was remove wanting in your for life.
Like if that's not like a Zen Buddhist saying I don't know
what is wait. And then I don't know if you
caught this. He literally said I have
everything I I know. I saw, I heard you remember
that. I was like, bro, that's
literally the mantra of our matcha.
That's literally. The sisters matcha mantra yeah
printed on top of our can and the meaning like the idea behind
that is that you say that mantra to yourself every single day
while you're. Making the matcha, Yeah, yeah, I
mean, it is. I mean, ours was not derived
from like a Buddhist saying, but I do understand like where he's
coming from, where he's just like, it's also not.
Derived from Peter Pham. It's not derived.
From and he was not a plant. We didn't ask him to see.
No, no, but like not happiness is not wanting anything or
expecting anything. I think that's damn, that's
powerful. Well, that's like really evolved
but. It goes.
It also reminds me of VU trans episode where he's just like
when you come from nothing. VU trans episode which is will
be up here hopefully if I can figure out how to edit that in.
If you come from nothing like you also want for nothing in a
way. He didn't exactly say that, but
that was my interpretation. He was like.
If you come from nothing, then you're unafraid.
You're unafraid. But then you also like Want for
Nothing too, where it's just like it can't get that bad, you
know? Like you've already seen how bad
it can be. Yeah.
Like you could take bigger risks because he's like, I knew what
it was like to be at zero and nothing.
So I'm not afraid of that. That also goes into like one of
my takeaways is that like Peter in this episode, he's like, if
you love what you do and you can do that every day, it's OK to
give up a little. Like, and what he meant by that
is that like you, he literally said you can move back in with
your family, obviously, if you have that privilege to do so.
But like some people, especially like some of my peers and
friends, like when I talk to them and they like want to take
risks and like do what they love and like leave their corporate
9:00 to 5:00. But they're like so afraid.
But like, I don't think they've actually gone through the
analysis of, like, what's the worst that can happen?
Like, you can move in with your family to, like, save money, but
like, people won't even go there because they won't even consider
that. So then they don't make the move
to, like, leave their corporate 9 to 5.
Does that make sense? Yeah, Yeah.
Like he was one of the things he said he was like, if you really
want to do something, you should give up.
You should feel capable giving up certain things in order to
achieve your goals. That's.
Also, that means like living within your means below your
means. It like requires sacrifice.
Yeah, I, I, I do think that like more clearly and more directly
than most of the other interviewers, it was very clear
that he lives by his philosophies.
Like everything that he said to us that was like either advice
or like sort of his mantras, I was like, oh, I see very clearly
that you're like living this yourself.
You're not just like giving us advice that you're not doing
every single day. Like, for example, he was like,
my happiness is derived from making other people happy and
like, empowering other people to be their best and to like build
and contribute to the world. He was like, that's why I,
that's what he does. Yeah.
That's why I'm a like, that's why I'm a venture capitalist.
That's why I started this incubator to help people build
their companies. Totally.
And I'm sure that, like, you know, he had to give up certain
things to get to where he is today.
Something that Peter said that really stuck with me is that you
don't have to be the smartest at what you do, but you just have
to be like the hardest working. I don't know quite remember the
phrasing, but it was related to like the previous point where
he's like, if you love what you do, you're going to be thinking
about it 24/7. And that's even more powerful
than like, you know, thinking about it from 9:00 to 5:00.
So like, you don't have to be the smartest, but like you will
be the hardest working just by putting more hours.
Exactly. So it wasn't necessarily like be
the hardest working. It was be the one that like
cares about this the most. Choose to do something that you
love and then the result of that is that you will, you'll
naturally spend more time on that topic even when you're not
technically working. Like you're going to be thinking
about it all the time because it's the thing that you care
about the most. So like it's like the natural
2nd 3rd order effects of it is that you will be better than
people who are treating it just as a regular.
Job. Yeah, if you treat it as like a
passion of yours. I mean, I do think that's like,
if you love something, you will work.
My interpretation is like you will work harder at it than
anyone else. And what if you love?
Money. What do you mean?
Like what if you love money like.
Making money, yeah. Then you will be working at it
and thinking about it. I think that's actually, that
can be a lot of people's motivations.
And I don't think that's technically like a wrong thing.
Yeah. I mean, depends on where it
comes from. And perhaps seek therapy.
But like, like, if you love money and that's your main
motivator for whatever reason, like, you will figure out ways
to make money and you'll be thinking about it 24/7.
Yeah. It actually, I don't know why it
randomly reminds me of this, but like 1 anecdote I remember
reading at some point is that from a very young age, Kim
Kardashian had always said I want to be famous.
She's like, I'm going to be famous.
Like, I think they're like video, like home video clips of
her saying that when she was like 16 or 1517 years old and
like, that was her driving motivator.
And now, like, she is the embodiment of fame.
She's like infamous for being famous, right?
So it's kind of interesting. Like, that was her North Star,
right? So that was what she did
everything in her life to like achieve that.
And now she's like the best at being famous.
That's true. That's, that's interesting.
Yeah. She, like you have define your
North Star, and if you can think about it 24/7 because you like
thinking about it and enjoy it it, you're all the more
powerful, Yeah. It's kind of interesting if you
like then try to like analyze all the things that she's been
doing, like with that North Star in mind, like her, you know,
getting involved in politics, like starting that PE slash
investment fund. Like I feel like those are all
things that would help her become more famous.
Yeah, interesting. And also like increase her total
addressable market of like where her name and her her brand is
like considered in the room. Yeah.
That woman should not be underestimated by anyone.
I'm so impressed by her. Yeah, I'm truly, I'm truly
impressed by her. I wonder if.
Peter Pham would be impressed by her I.
Think so? I won't.
Speak for him, but. I mean, I think so because
Peter, I feel like his his like brand is that he is the.
Culture Yeah, you actually said that at one point.
You're like, you are the culture and the way that I heard it was
like capital T, capital C and the culture and I odd culture
personified is maybe what I said or that's what I think right
now. No, that's what he is because
like he mentions he's like, yeah, this is what Reddit is
for. Twitter slash X TikTok, YouTube,
He like mentions all those social media platforms and how
they're used. And I'm really impressed that he
just like gets it. He's so fluent.
He's. So culturally fluent, yes, he.
Really understands. Which is kind of funny 'cause I
don't think people talk about being culturally fluent and like
being able to speak the language of all different generations,
'cause he's probably what, in his 40s?
He didn't say. I know he wouldn't say his age.
You asked him how old he. Was and his response was Asian.
Don't raise it. I'm like.
That's true. That's true.
So you're 60 what you're I feel like unknown, but like I feel
like he's the type of person that could speak to a 10 year
old just as easily he could as he could speak with like a 70
year old skimmed a. Toiletries alpha Beta.
I don't know Medicare, sorry. Yeah.
I I. See that as well.
Like he's able to transcend generations.
And I think that's really cool because I hope to be like that.
I aspire to be like that. But I wonder how it is.
It can be advantageous in the professional world.
And I'm sure that it is, but I kind of want to like analyze
this a little bit more and like, is it viewed as advantageous
like broadly in the professional world or is it looked down upon
in some ways well? Do you know?
What I mean, Yeah, it. Depends on what you do.
I think for him, he's a startup incubator.
He's a, you know, venture investor.
He incubated liquid Death. Like, Liquid Death is the
culture they, like, created this culture around hardcore water.
Yeah. Like that did not exist.
Like, imagine saying to yourself 10 years ago, yeah, my favorite
drink brand is this really hardcore water, canned water.
Also imagine. Sounds ridiculous.
Imagine explaining that to a 70 year old.
Yeah, that's. Interesting.
Yeah, it's giving. Like why are you paying more
money for jeans with holes in them?
Wait, OK, I have to say this. So one of the infamous classes
at HBS is a like marketing class that's taught by this really
famous marketing professor and guru named Yung NI MU Love.
Her OH. Yeah, I sat in her.
Class and she has her podcast. Well, the it's not her podcast,
but she's a podcast host. So you do know she Cherie came
with me to class one one day, but one of the exercises that
she made us or one of the assignments that she made us do
as students in her class was to create a branded water.
So like, everyone had to come in with their own idea of like, if
you were to create a water brand today, what would it be?
And like, why? Because like, water is
technically like, a commodity, right?
Right. Like, So what differentiates 1
brand of water from another? Now I'm trying to think, was
this before or after Liquid Death was created?
It was definitely before it became super popular.
Yeah. But it's so interesting how
there's like room in the market for like 30 plus.
I mean, I'm sure there's many more like types of water, but
it's like water. Yeah, back to your question,
Yeah, like Peter and like people like him who really deeply
understand people and culture and their wants and their
beliefs, Like that's how you create something, like out of
nothing. Yeah.
That's how you, like, redefine something.
Yeah. For a.
New generation, how you redefine culture, too?
How you shape culture? I really like that.
He said he's just like, yeah, I invest in culture.
Of course I have to, like, be a part of the culture.
And he also said he's just like, when you look at Liquid Death
and you look into their comments section, do people treat the
company like customer service or like a friend?
And I was like, wow. I was just like, I know that
there's things going on in that comment section.
How do you know that comment section is like what makes the
he lives? In the comments, the content,
yeah. I thought that was really
impressive. I was just like, I know that,
Like, how do you know that? You know what I mean?
Yeah, the comment section, is it the kind of unspoken or maybe
now people are talking about it, but like it's kind of unspoken,
like everyone like run runs to the comment section I.
Haven't heard people speak about it in a more like professional
like marketing, like branding moment.
Yeah, like in a, in that sort of.
Academic way, yeah. In maybe like two years or even
less, there's going to be like a playbook that comes out that's
like how to optimize your marketing, like comment LED
marketing, right? It's going to be something like
that. Yes and you know what like
Duolingo is like the famous, famous case study, at least in
like the the content that I consume and like the circles
that I run in everyone like goes to Duolingo and they're like the
person who did it, who's the social media marketing manager,
you know has done it so well. Duo has this entire personality.
So many like brands want to partner with her and the
company. Although I've been seeing it on
the counterpoint, it's like a balance because I've seen like
now all all these airline companies have a voice of their
own, you know, on X or threads like Delta, like Ryanair, Spirit
Airlines, they kind of like clap back at each other and like
United. But I'm like, this is kind of
weird. Like I didn't I could see
Duolingo being personified but I didn't need Ryanair and or
Spirit Airlines or Frontier to be personified on X.
Do you know? What I mean?
This sounds like you're a little bit biased against these.
But. Delta budget airlines, but Delta
someone sounds a little bit little bit questionable.
Well, in the airlines that you mentioned, No, I get what you
mean. It's tipped.
Too far and like OK the other day for example.
Or it's not. It doesn't feel authentic.
It's like going back to what he said.
It doesn't feel authentic the Wendy like Wendy's.
Does Wendy's need a persona on X?
Like what is the persona of Wendy's and or Quaker Oats?
Like I recently re threaded something that Quaker Oats
wrote. So I'm I'm guilty.
I'm like literally being a hypocrite right now.
But I'm like, do we need Quaker Oats to be like on threads and
on? XI mean they're trying, I know.
I, I guess we can't fault them from trying, but I'm just like,
I think the scale is kind of tipped the other way.
I'm like a little bit annoyed now.
I'm like, what are you guys doing here?
I guess they're not. I think the difference is that
they're not a like comment native brand, whereas like
Liquid Death, for example, it feels like they were like born
in the comments, you know, but like bringing him back to like
exactly what he said. I just want to say like, I just
want to reemphasize the like really like Bangor sentence, he
said. So one was he said relationships
last longer than customer service.
That's like the power of the comments right in the comment
section. That's where you like build the
relationship. You have the conversation that
are not they're not like goal oriented.
They're not meant to like achieve a goal and they're not
transactional. You're just kind of like
shooting the shit. You're building a relationship.
Yeah, it's. Connection building.
Yeah, even. People who are not actually
leaving comments, they're reading the.
Yeah. So they feel like they're part
of that conversation with the brand.
Yeah. So that feels very organic.
And then the other thing he said was customers are smarter than
you think he was. Like at Liquid Death, we treat
the audience like they're in on it, yes.
I love this part so. Good, because you know what he
says. After that, he goes, I know that
they know that. We know that they know.
Yeah, that. We're we're selling to them.
Yeah, everyone knows we're marketing, but how do we make it
fun? Like how do we make it something
that everyone wants to participate in as opposed to
being like the just the object of the marketing, like the
subject of the marketing people want to be?
In on it and okay, sorry to go back to Ryanair and bury
Frontier. You know what it is.
What pisses me off is that they were if they were actually in on
it and we were in on it, they would own how shitty they are.
Like they they would they would. Make jokes about how like,
right? Yes they would.
Repost all those things of people, sorry to interrupt.
Like of people like wearing a million clothes, yes.
They would be in on it be like, yeah, we do charge you like, you
know, $45.00 a seat and bringing a bag a a checked bag will cost
twice as much that yes, we, we realize how ridiculous that is
and we're gonna keep doing theme.
That would be their theme and they would like harp on it
themselves and like they would be.
In on it they would understand how messed up it is or like the
trade off, but they're like, but we're giving you the cheapest
seat available so wear all your clothes on your body like that's
pretty. Good.
That's why it bothers. Me because like they're not,
they're missing the next layer of like they know that we know
that they know that we know like they're only halfway there.
Yeah, it's like, it's like Peter said, take a stance.
Yeah, take a position, say the unsaid thing that everybody
already knows or is already. Thinking like everyone like I
will take, I took Spirit or Frontier like one of these
budget airlines to go to Vegas with like my friends at GSB.
But like, we did it because we knew it would be cheap.
The only time she'll do it is when she flies with 400 other
people. Lafaire, Faire Lafaire.
She didn't have any bags. I didn't have single bags.
No, she didn't even stay over. I didn't.
Have a bag and perfect use case. Actually, yeah, they should.
They should see, they should do like videos about that.
Yeah, right. It's just like I don't.
Want brands? To pretend that they're
something that they're not like, just be like, just say what
everyone else is thinking. And I think that'll get you much
further than like Quaker Oats. What are you doing here?
But does Quaker Oats need to take on like a Starkey persona?
No. Please don't like they're
already being snarky. I'm annoyed.
I was just like stop. Being snarky OK, but if they're
not snarky or like funny, then why do people want to like
engage with them in in the comments like what are they
going to do? Just post like really wholesome
like puppy videos I. Don't know, I think they could
start like like just start from first principles and be like,
why do people even go to quicker roads?
Like oh, it's a recipe. It's like like healthy do like
recipe videos show how people can engage in your product and
fun and creative ways like that is the content I'd want to see.
OK is like I want to be inspired by it.
I don't need them to like. Yeah.
So like maybe if they were to do this like comment marketing, you
know, campaign, they would then have like really positive
encouraging comments and be like, I don't know.
For some recipes or like in yeah yeah repost people yeah
something. Like whatever, I don't know,
like whatever. There's something like positive
happening. They chime in and be like, oh,
like this is like, so amazing. This made my day or I don't
know. Yeah.
I don't know. I'd have to think a little bit.
They don't. Have to be snarky like like the
same way that Duolingo is I think.
Everyone's trying to be snarky these days and I'm like, it
doesn't work. They're trying to like to
literally execute the Duolingo like strategy versus taking that
strategy and making it work for their brand.
Exactly. Because Duolingo is like in a
fun way, and I think they've done it brilliantly.
So this is not a Ding on them or anything, but they're like
snarky. They're like chaotic.
They say the craziest things. They'll like, you know, retweet
with like Dua Lipa and like they have this new aunt, like this
ongoing like segment of like how Duolingo is like in love with
Duo Lipa. Like it's like very about the
cultural times. And that works for them,
especially because their social media manager is like Gen.
Z and like, gets it. But not everyone needs to do
that. Yeah.
It's. Giving Ariana, what are you
doing here? It's actually it's quite tired.
I still like that meme. No, no, no.
No, I mean, the people are doing the Duolingo thing.
It's getting, for me quite tired.
Yeah. The final take away I had with
this conversation with Peter is that he took the analogy of
sports teams and why people are so bought in into their sports
teams that they love, even though like if their sport team
is not doing well when they get a win, they really feel like
they're a part of the entire process.
And so I don't know exactly remember the quote that he said,
but like, people love supporting, you know, other
ambitious, hungry, passionate people because they feel like
they're a part of your success. Or if they can feel like they're
a part of your success, they want to like, root for you
because people don't get to feel like they're winning every day
so they can live vicariously through your wins.
And I was like. I had.
Never thought about it that way but like the psychology of it
makes so much sense. Totally.
It's like if I contributed 5 percent, 10% or even like 1% to
a person's win, then like you get to feel a part of it.
And so then you get to feel like a little bit of joy and
satisfaction and like positivity every day through what everyone
else is doing as opposed to just to yourself.
I mean, I think that's the idea that like of leverage, right?
Say more, I think like a, a piece of feedback that a lot of
like middle managers get as they're moving into higher
management roles is like the number one, or this is at least
one of the piece of feedback that I got is like the number
one thing you need to focus on is increasing your leverage.
So like if you're doing something or you're saying
something instead of you just like having a direct effect on
something, it should be like kicking off like 10 different
work streams and like it'll have an effect on 10 people who then
have an effect on 50 other people that ends up affecting
like thousands and millions of people.
I mean, that's, it's not exaggerated actually, when you
work on a social media app, you know, hundreds of millions
people use, but it's kind of like a, a version of that.
That's what that's what it reminded me of.
Interesting. That's such a interesting
association. My brain did not go there at
all, but I see that or like. That's a way that you can.
Scale yourself, yeah. It's a way that you can sort of
apply what Peter is saying, even if you don't work as AVC
yourself and you're not an investor and you work in a
corporate job, right? It's like increasing your
leverage. Like how can you have more
direct influence and more indirect influence at the same
time? When Peter talked about that, it
reminded me of our Matcha brand sisters Matcha and one.
It's like super like grass rootsy in like how Jean and I
are like in there in the comments and talking to people,
responding to everything, but also in that like people want to
feel like they're a part of something.
Something that we started doing was writing the people, our
customers names on our wall in our home, in our Home Office,
just like every singles, every single person's name who's
bought a sister's matcha. And it's like in a lot of our
videos, their names are there, they're they're present like
they're a part of the story you're.
Yeah, you live with us. You live in our home.
You're with us every day. Exactly.
So I actually hadn't. Connected those two, but I'm
like, oh, that's why, like I didn't, you know, we wanted to
do it for a reason. But like this is like very
concrete reason is that people want to feel like they're a part
of something and when they can see their name, they're like,
oh, I'm contributing and I'm part of this story.
The history of it all. Yeah.
And like, I think also they're connecting not just to like our
story of being sister Co founders, but also the fact that
our matcha is sourced from this family farm, like a really small
family farm in Wazuka, Japan. And we like talk about that
family farm too. And like how, you know, we're
really close to them and like how we are like basically
plugged into every single part of the production and creation
and everything. I think that's also part of it,
right? Like I don't feel like we're
just doing it for ourselves. I feel like we kind of have a
higher purpose in in doing this, this company, right, aside from
the fact that it is like the best, healthiest, most amazing
matcha that you can buy pretty much.
And I'm like very proud of and stand behind the product like
it's, it's more than just a product.
Yeah, which is I think interesting going back to the
differentiation of water, like this is the differentiation of
matcha. Yeah.
Like part of what makes our matcha special is like,
obviously it tastes good, the health benefits and it's like, I
mean. It's ultra premium.
It's like the top of the top, like all that stuff, yes.
But then in addition to that, like there is this story of this
family farm that we are connected with and we're
sourcing from that like other matcha companies on a much
larger scale, like much bigger than us, they don't have the
same ties to that. And if they're doing some like
larger scale farming, like it's definitely not the same.
It's so different. There's a heritage to it.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's like the same
reason why, you know, you can have one handmade leather bag
that's made in France that's maybe like $150.00 and then you
can have a handmade Hermes bag which is $6000 or, you know,
$150,000. Like it's the heritage behind
the story of that house that is so well known.
They've done such a good job of telling the story of that Maison
over time, that that is their competitive advantage.
That's why they're the like, 800 LB gorilla in, you know, luxury
handmade leather goods. Yeah.
I'm. Honestly, I think we should do a
better job. We could do a better job of
telling the story behind it. I mean, I think it's like, I
don't know how much people I care.
About it. I care so deeply about it, but I
don't know. I it's interesting.
Let us know. Let us know.
Do you care? Yeah.
Like, does it make a difference for you in the consumables that
you purchase when you know the story behind it and when, you
know, like, literally the people who are doing the source saying,
the people who are doing the vetting and everything, like,
you can see their faces and hear from them and, like, see the
process, too. Yeah.
I wonder what you so when I used to work at LinkedIn, something
we would call like the aha moment is like when do people
start like realizing that LinkedIn learning is like, oh,
is a product that works for them.
What is the aha moment? Did you ever call it that?
Especially during like onboarding?
Since I worked on onboarding in my first few years, It's like
what is the first experience that a user goes through or I
guess. It's like is another way to put
it, like what is the day or the moment that they end up
retaining? Like they become like a lifelong
customer. That they end up like getting
it. And like the whole point is that
like for retention and growth, you're supposed to shorten the
time to getting to the aha moment for users.
And so something that I've seen and I've actually felt myself is
that like when Dean and I, you know, travel, we go on vacation,
we do a lot of Airbnb experiences and like the aha
moment for me and I've seen for other people is like, like when
they get to experience something themselves.
So like when I was working on the matcha farm, we used to have
like guests come in and go on a tea farm tour.
And like, I mean, it's the second that they're on the farm.
They hear from our our manufacturer, like our, our
source Daikisan, the farmer, the head farmer, they hear about his
story. They see the farm, they taste
it. They understand how much craft
and care goes into like every single freaking cup.
Like, that's an aha moment. And I would say the bar is quite
high to get there. Like you got to go to Japan.
If you're, you know, outside of Japan, you got to travel there.
You got to go to the countryside.
You got to go on this tea farm tour.
You have to allocate a lot of time to it.
Is there a way to get users and customers to the aha moment
without actually having to do that?
Yeah. How do you translate that for
the masses? How do you Yeah, how do you can
you? I think, I mean, we've done it a
little bit of like the content that we create on the farm and
like telling the story of the farm, but how can you do it in a
more like visceral manner? We need.
To make a documentary, we need to go back to the farm.
This is where we go. Back to the farm.
Yeah, make a documentary. We are going to go.
Back to the farm for harvest season.
Exactly. So yeah, I mean, like, guys, we
like, we walk the walk. We're not just like talking to
talk. Yeah.
We're going back in May 2025. If you'd like to join us, we
have a trip, a group trip with you guys.
We have 15 spots total and I think around we have like 3
spots left. So if you'd like to come with us
to Japan in May of 2025, travel with us.
We are going to Tokyo Mount Fuji, which we've both never
been to before. We're visiting a tea farm in
Shizuoka, a different part of Japan that we've also never been
to before. It'll.
Be fun to see a different tea farm yeah, I'm very interested
in it yeah, because they have different farming methods yes, I
was just. About to say that it's a
different landscape, yeah. Completely.
In Shizuoka, it's not as mountainous as Kyoto, right.
So they can use tractors versus our mantra comes from an area
where it's too like hilly to actually use tractors.
So that's why everything is done in very small batches and by
hand, yeah. We will have a link in our
description if you guys would like to join us for that trip
and we would love to have you. Yes.
Anyway, so Peter Pham, I mean, you know, it was a great
conversation because it relates. To our lives in so many
different ways yeah, it just. Made us think so much, Yeah.
Like, it LED us to have these like really deep conversations
even though he's not here. But like off of the back of his
like quotes, he's. Good, that man.
He's good. I know.
We should. Maybe we should get him back.
Wait, we should. I feel like he would have so
much more to say. Yeah, this was like only like a
20 minute interview. We should do a longer one with
him. Yeah, guys, let us know.
If you'd be interested in a Part 2 with Peter and then maybe we
can convince him to come back onto the pod.
Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of The
Tiger Sisters. Please remember to like, comment
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We'll see you next time. Bye.