Get away from her you bitch. Classic.
He was in the Amazon cry along when she was researching spiders
right before she died. No, I thought you become a
prostitute or a dog at it. I.
Used to love doggy chow. I used to love doggy chow too.
There's always someone younger and hungrier coming down the
stairs after you. I'm Crystal.
Wait, did you have a Lesi wet dream about me?
I'm baby lame. And welcome to Camp Classics.
A thoughtful podcast about stupid movies.
That was my first of many Showgirls references I'll be
making throughout this episode. I.
Wonder why? Welcome to Camp Classics.
What do we do here? We talk about gay old movies.
Figure out why gay people like them and we.
Also question our own lives and our own existence through doing
this. It's really the pursuit of
perfection here, isn't it? Absolutely is and the costs,
yeah, the sacrifices that we make to deliver this podcast to
you and can I just say I'm very happy that I'm not slurring as
much as I have been in the last couple of episodes.
I've been giving slightly numb easy thing to say, but like you
know Mariah on the meds I'll do the.
Best I can, but when I. And I'm sorry listeners, but
I've listened back to some episodes and I'm going to try to
articulate and enunciate because it's it's literally becoming
like. I never thought that about
myself either before I started doing a podcast and I'm like,
sometimes you make 4 words, one word.
Yeah, No. About me, not about you.
Well, valid, because I have. I've had notes for you as well,
so no, no worries about that. What I've got over very quickly
is like the big fucking gay lesbian saying I don't give a
shit about that. I'm now like I have lost the
ability as a fully grown adult to speak.
Yeah, yeah, like sounding gay is the least of our problems.
When you say that's so gay, do you realize what you say?
Knock it off. Literally, I'd take that.
Fucking hell. I mean, I don't know why either
of us thought that we would be good or capable of doing
something like this, but here we are.
Gay delusion? Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, yeah. OK.
Oh, great. OK.
That's what it is, yeah. We are Natalie Portman.
Well, I'd like to be Mili Kunis. I don't think I am.
I think I'm actually Natalie Portman's mum in reality.
Yeah, but we're both sounding much better today.
I feel like we were both clinging on to the ledge for
dear life. And if any of you see the clips
that Crystal edits and mannequin, literally, I I look
like I've been deaf, warmed up. I look like I am the mannequin
that has been fisted. Well, I'm glad to see you full
of colour, like a human that's been fisted.
Yes, great. I will say the blue tinge
lighting really helps with the kind of transparent skin that I
have. And also can I just say your
fucking arms? I nearly had a meltdown when you
got them out earlier. Like what?
The look, look. Oh my God, my voice just
tremored. You have been roiding up bitch,
haven't you? I wish, I'm too scared of roids.
So it's all natural. Yeah, they're big.
Natty, I said that to you, though, I was like, your arms
are big. Imagine, imagine that what you
could do. You could like, crush my neck
with those arms. I got to say the reason I go to
the gym is for compliments, so I appreciate that.
OK, yeah, shame about your personality.
There's no gym for that. Certainly isn't sometimes
though. Being in a room with you makes
me feel like there is though. It is like a, you know, a
training session. Oh, workout.
Yeah, an intensive workout. What do I want to tell you about
Cape class? Oh, we've got a gay trion.
We do, yeah. You can support us financially
to make this show. As you say that, how many times
can I like act surprised? Or how can I react differently
to every time you say? How do I just nod and?
No, I think you do a good job of like bringing something fresh
because I don't know what I would say if I were in your
position. I've thought about this before.
Oh wait, I'm going to give it another.
Go Yeah, yeah, we've got a gay trion.
No, we don't. What's that?
Yeah, how dare you say that. Well, there we go.
I'm going to each one. I'm going to try and think of
something new to do. Well, that's how you can support
us financially to make the show and you get a bonus episode
every month if you sign up. It is £4 a month and I'd like to
welcome Danielle and Chris C. Yes, hello, Chris Crocker or
Britney fame. I assume yes yeah and now only
fans *. Probably I.
Think so. Most people end up on only fans.
Yeah, yeah. Right now you've got big arms.
Would you go on Only fans? I think if I were 15 years
younger, there is no question about it.
I would have been on Only fans. Yeah.
And so I guess you would have done Cam maybe?
I did do Cam. You like to show them off.
That's what I was leading to. So tell the listeners how you
did Cam come. On I think this podcast is
listened to by too many of my friends, potentially family.
We'll get that on another one. Yeah, I've revealed that detail
on other podcasts in the past. And you know, if you really want
to know more, go have a troll. It's a real giggle.
Yeah, Oh. I know the story, I haven't done
Cam and still would. Yeah don't care.
I think there's a niche audience for any anyone I'd like.
Looked into quite a lot of documentaries about stuff and
I'm still waiting. If someone could guarantee me an
audience and an income for five years, I've quit everything and
I would dedicate myself to doing that.
Yeah, you've you've talked about this on the podcast.
Oh shit, I'm so sorry. That's when and then you started
talking about how you'd you'd shit on Cam.
Oh, I was literally, that's where my brain was going.
So I've literally got one thing to say, OK?
You know, if, if I didn't have to edit this, you could probably
get away with telling me the same story.
But you like the fact that is that I've heard you if if you
tell a story on this podcast once I hear it.
Please, please. I'm about as interesting as
Natalie Portman is in this film. No, we won't take that from you.
But I, I, that is my main note. She really needs to get off.
Oh my God. Listen, I know it's
inappropriate to call out someone for being frigid, but
fuck me, you're frigid. Yeah, sorry.
Just before we get before we get to Natalie Portman sex life, we
do have some more. We have some comments.
Oh, let. Me see.
Let me see if I. Can.
No, we don't. Vamp says 19.
Sorry, padam, Padam. Pavam Pavam, I've just
discovered this podcast. I love that, yes.
I've just discovered this podcast and I'm loving it.
So this makes me the first Italian listener, right?
Pavam, Pavam, we hear you and we know.
Welcome. Ciao, Bella.
Hello. Hey, Rocky said about Mannequin.
I enjoyed this episode so much more than I enjoyed the movie,
which may not sound as much of a compliment as I intended to be.
Yeah, I mean, the world's pretty low, but thank you.
Thank you, Rocky. Rocky and we had a comment from
Scales. Up until now, I was under the
impression that I was the only one on this planet that
considered Basic Instinct to risk addiction.
Tour de Force Girls is after your.
Own Oh my God. I've recently saw an interview
with Sharon Stone about this. About Basic Instinct too.
Well, about the Basic Instinct franchise, because apparently
they're thinking of rebooting it.
Yes. And she literally was like, I
don't know why you'd fucking want to.
And she's like, and then she went, did you not watch the
sequel? That I did She.
And then she was something like, if you think it's OK, Like
basically the director said he wouldn't shoot a scene unless I
sat on his lap. I was meant to have creative
control. But it was a complete like
vanity contract. She basically just shredded it
all. She was meant to have way more
clout with that film. That's too bad.
That's still. Because you really do want her
to have all the power watching. That I'd settle for like ATV
movie starring Megan Fox who has recently posted some pictures.
She's out and about again and she is looking sensational.
I got to say, I've been working my way through Joe Esther Houses
back catalog because he's the writer of Basic Instinct, writer
of Showgirls. I watched Jade this weekend.
I haven't seen Jade before. It's Basic Instinct, so if you
feel like you need to watch Basic Instinct again but have it
make even less sense, you could watch Jade.
There we go. Yeah, OK.
Yeah, there's a fertility mask and a murder and who did it and.
Will we be covering it on this podcast?
I could. Kind of see it.
Yeah, it doesn't sound like you're that keen on.
You know, sometimes you just watch a movie and you don't want
to think about whether or not it.
Should be on your podcast. Yeah, fair enough.
OK, well that's our business, baby.
Before we go any further, what makes a goddamn camp classic?
I don't know see what I'm doing, Why?
Would I know? Yeah, why don't you tell me,
but. The thing is, you don't know.
You have to reach your phone every time.
Well, thanks for asking, Crystal account Plastic is something
that unlocks queer joy, in the words of the icon herself, Megan
Fox. I want a wetty.
It needs to be stupid, it needs to have an ongoing legacy and
inform queer pop culture, and ultimately it needs to be anti
mainstream slash underdog flop vibes that's been reclaimed by
the F slurs. And today we are covering Black
Swan. Why did you say it like that?
I know because it's it's arty. Is it?
It's very arty is highbrow. Hi Oscar winning.
What's your history with Black Swan?
Well I remember watching it when it was released and I remember
being very edgy and arty at uni and having a large poster of it
on my wall and feeling very. No, this is after you were at
uni. Was it?
Yeah, you're not that young. You're not young.
Where was it? 2010.
OK, well, it was OK. So I remember watching it and
remember being like, really like, oh, wow, I love this kind
of like arty, edgy film. And I got like an arty, edgy
limited edition print thing and put it up and I was just like,
yeah, this is like. I'm an artist, yeah, I'm into.
I'm not like the other girls. Yeah, I'm a cool girl.
Yeah, so that was it. And then I just hadn't watched
it. And these kind of films amazed
me because at the time they're so critically acclaimed and
everyone bangs on about them, but so many of them just get
buried, don't they? And just like, forgotten about.
Like, I don't feel people talk about Black Swan anymore.
I don't feel like it's. Yeah, I know what you mean.
So it was interesting to rewatch it because I was like, Oh yeah,
how about you? I also remember going to see it
in the theatre. I think I really liked it.
I remember thinking at the time, this is show Girls in High Art.
I didn't make the connection back then, but obviously
watching it now, I'm like, right, OK, it's nearly shot for
shot Showgirls. Yeah.
I think I watched it again, I don't know, sometime in the
interim, and then watched again this week.
I what? I didn't remember.
I was expecting a bit more of a romp because in my head it's
taken in. It's kind of taken up a place
that Showgirls has of like melodrama, kind of like a silly
premise. It's quite depressing, yeah.
Oh yeah. It's quite unnerving 1.
I will say about showgirls, you know, for all of it's like
weaknesses is you don't walk away feeling traumatised by it.
This is like, Oh yeah, yeah, this is a subliminal for abuse,
this part. Yeah, I've been really, like,
psychologically tormented for a couple of hours by Darren
Aronofsky, but I'm glad to be talking about this movie today.
So what is Black Swan? Black Swan is a 2010 American
psychological horror thriller directed by Darren Aronofsky
from a screenplay by Mark Heyman, John McLaughlin and
Andre Hynes. So it's directed by a man and
written by three men. Which is really fabulous for the
subject matter that this takes on.
Yeah, I love that for it. The film stars Natalie Portman
in the lead role. First, our first Natalie
Portman. I believe so.
Welcome, welcome. To the podcast, Natalie Portman
and Mila Kunis. First time.
Welcome to the. Podcast.
I just say camp crush Mila Kunis.
Camp crash. Yeah, I forgot I.
I mean, she's hot. Yeah, and I, like, I kind of
forgot because she's not done a lot recently, has she?
And I was just like, Oh my God, Mila Kunis, you are fucking cool
and you are fucking hot. You've fallen victim to the cool
girl trap. I always fall victim to the cool
girl trap her Orby Plaza. Who else is there that all
anyone that sort of is in that that like little niche.
I'm always like, Oh my God, Patti Harrison, comedian is
like. Yeah, but she is actually cool.
The other is not cool then. Well, I guess what?
Every Plaza is cool. Yeah, I'll be Plaza is cool.
I think Mila Kunis is doing something a bit different in
this movie, which is like, I am so cool and different.
Like I fuck and I eat cheeseburgers.
I'm not like other girls. I'm a cool girl.
You can you can have sex with me and I'll like it.
Yeah, she's OK, but I still. She's basically like a theatre
kid, like pretending to basically trying to figure out
how how to appeal to men. Is that her vibe outside of
acting there? I don't know.
I mean, she's married to Ashton
Kutch. Yeah, didn't they, like, have a
problem with like, I think they defended one of their 70s Show
Co stars when he was accused of rape?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember.
I mean, the film kind of does that as well that we're about to
talk about, but. Yeah, anyway, it's This movie
also has Winona Ryder. Sensational Comeback So this was
her first movie since the shoplifting I.
Think so, yeah. Big comeback, isn't it?
Yeah. Always a delight to see Winona
Ryder and something and we've got Barbara Hershey playing the
mum, Erica and Vincent Castle as.
Barbara Hershey, famous for. She is famous for I know she did
a movie called The Entity which is supposed to be really good,
where she's being like sexually assaulted by a ghost.
I. Mean, that's not funny, but kind
of his. Oh, she's in beaches.
Oh. Which I've never seen.
Oh yeah? Oh my God, you've never seen
beaches? No.
OK, I think we should talk about beaches on this podcast.
Oh really? Is it camp?
Isn't it just depressing? Melodramatic, but it's also very
calm. OK, great.
Yeah. In my.
Well, I haven't watched it for years, but yeah, Barbara
Hershey, What I will say is the facelift is lifting.
Yeah, it's just that flat skin over the ear, but.
It works for the caricature. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely.
This movie had a $13 million budget, and do you know how much
it took worldwide? No it.
Was a huge hit, $330 million. Shit, Yeah.
One of the top movies of the year.
Has there been like, you know, when they do like the sequels
that are like with none of the cast, it feels like there should
be a Black Swan too. I guess for all his faults, we
can give Darren Aronofsky that that he's probably a bit
precious about his. And hasn't, yeah.
Yeah, but yeah, you're right. Or you could imagine like.
With Denise Richards in it or something?
Yeah, where's the like Prime TV miniseries?
Oh God, yeah. With Denise.
Richards. I'd watch.
So not only was it a commercial success, it was also a critical
success. It's got 85% on Rotten Tomatoes.
What's it doing on this podcast? Honestly.
And it had five Oscar nominations, including Best
picture, best Director and Natalie Portman won best
actress. So it won the like, big three,
but that's what I'm saying. Win all three.
It just won Best Actress, but it was nominated for Yeah.
But still, I do think this film has kind of been forgotten about
slightly. Interesting.
In 2021, Natalie Portman's performance was included in the
New Yorkers list of the best film performances of the 21st
century. So people still think it's good.
Oh, OK. Well, then yeah.
Yeah. It's interesting when Natalie
Portman isn't it? And I know we'll get into it,
but do you remember when she first sort of came into the
screens in Star Wars Queen Amidala?
Everybody was banging on about how wooden she was for so long.
It's just great that she's. Yeah, let's really the plot.
Yes. OK, let's do the plot.
So we meet Nina Sayers, who is Natalie Portman.
She's a young dancer with the New York City Ballet who lives
with her overprotective mother, Erica, played by Barbara
Hershey, who is a former ballerina.
And like the beginning scene, very arty, setting the tone,
very stylistic as a very filmic quality to it.
And she's just dancing in the spotlight, isn't she?
She's dancing, and then she's dancing with her partner, and
her partner transforms into a bird monster.
Which is giving like boulet brothers drag king thing like
slay them honey. So true.
But looks gorgeous. Yeah, yeah, she's a ballerina.
She's and the company she's in is opening the season with
Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake. We learned that the current
prima ballerina Beth, played by Winona Ryder.
Beth is being forced into retirement.
Can I say that when we see her, the picture of her on the poster
outside the venue? Yes, serving cunt Winona, she is
good. Purse, Purse.
Yeah, she gets so little screen time in this, but she does make
it count. Yeah, she really does.
But yeah, when she when I saw that poster, which I was like,
that's why was it. But straight away I'm like, hi
Crystal. It's very showgirls that isn't
it? Oh.
My God, you're so right. Crystal Connors is Goddess,
Winona Ryder is Swan Lake. Yeah it's so true.
I should just get this out of the way now.
Have you seen the mash up trailer where someone has taken
the dialogue from the trailer of Black Swan and put it over
scenes from Showgirls? No, it is.
Amazing. I've never didn't even know that
was a thing. Yeah, I will link it in our
carousel for this episode. You should.
Really. OK, watch.
It and I will show it to you after this.
It's perfect. But yeah, Beth is being forced
into retirement and we see her trashing her dressing room
because she's furious to be pushed out and out.
That's always going to be camp. Camp clue.
Yeah, listen. Someone smashing a mirror.
A lot someone a hysterical woman.
That trope never gets old. It's always fun to see.
And then that creepy little pervy little freak that hasn't
unleashed a freak goes into the room and steals some bits,
doesn't she? She takes her lipstick.
We're like, oh, I thought this person was going to be our hero.
Yeah, and she's got like a little.
She's a bit sneaky, creepy, gross.
Yeah, listen to that Natalie Port.
Yeah, Sneaky, creepy, gross person.
Artistic Director Tomah announces he's looking for a new
dancer for the dual roles of the innocent and fragile White Swan
and the sensual and dark Black Swan.
I like even he admits that that's a fucking basic ass show
to kick off the season with though, isn't it?
Because like, I mean it, it works for the audience as well.
Because people that don't know ballet, it's like that of a
Nutcracker, isn't it? Really it's.
Really the only two ballets I could name I've seen Swan like.
Have you? Yeah, I haven't.
I don't really remember it, but it's, you know, impressive.
I. Don't want to be working in
ballet. What I will say is as well, he's
like, we're going to deconstruct it and make it edgy and
different. And it's like everything I saw
is what I know. Yeah, doesn't seem that way.
This is the first time we hear him explain how the white swan
is the good one and the Black Swan is the sexy bad.
One well, I'm really glad that they do that because otherwise
it would be really hard to follow the twists and turns that
this narrative takes in regard to that.
I mean, it's not like it's the most literal thing that is
consistently parallel through the entire movie.
One of like meant maybe 7 times in the movie.
He's like, you're too frigid. You're white swan.
I need you to be sexy slutty Black Swan.
That is basically it. You know what it gives you
parallels to. I know who killed me with the
blue and the with. The blue and the red, you're
right. It's the red Or is it just blue?
Yeah, it's red and blue. Yeah, red and blue, the two
sides of the coin. Yeah, I was just like, wow, this
is the same cinematic universe. Yeah.
Are you a poet and a writer, or are you a bad girl stripper?
Yeah. And why can't you be built
there? I think we covered the movie.
Yeah, I think. I think that's it.
So Nina auditions for the Swan Queen and Let.
Me tell you something. Sorry to interrupt you.
It's hard being a ballerina from the get go, isn't it?
We're seeing lots of brutal, like close-ups of ties.
Yeah, and like the sound effects, you get a real like
Foley of like bones. Crunching.
Yeah, she's.
Getting Massage Mother delivers a delicious breakfast of a
grapefruit and an egg. It's so pink.
It looks horrible, doesn't it? And the whole grading of the
entire, I have filmed this world, we're sort of set up that
everything is so dark, cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paints are really like nasty image of the industry.
Yeah, I think it's probably unfair really, because Natalie
Portman, like, she doesn't seem to be doing it because she loves
it. She's doing it because she's
like, determined to be the best. You know things where it's like,
hey, keep this thing alive even though like no one cares about
this anymore. That's good enough reason I.
Guess, but I'm sure there's lots of ballerinas who are like I.
I love my dog, I mean. To do this mean the kudos
doesn't even warm up. Yeah, she doesn't even have
techniques. She's coming from drinking and
she just dances. And suddenly as we're talking.
1/3 option which is someone who likes their job and takes it
seriously. Yeah, and probably having a
nice. Yeah, I bet a lot of ballerinas
were like, pissed about this movie.
All respect to the ballet and opera people out there.
So Ninas auditioning, she gives a flawless performance as the
White Swan because she's perfect.
Pure innocent virgin baby girl but when she tries to do the
blacks one she trips and that's because Lily has walked in.
That's Mila Kunis and. What I will say about her
audition and like the process of watching her, I don't know why
she did make it to the next stage of the auditions because
she's already like fucking freaking out.
Like all of the other ballerinas are like smiling and dancing and
just doing the work on the bar. And she's just like a psycho
paranoid, like head scattering around looking at the director.
It's like you're not well enough to dance this baby.
You're. So, right, I think anyone
looking at her for any amount of time would be like, this girl
needs some help. Yeah.
It's like, are you OK? Yeah, yeah, You know, she does
get in. She gets.
And then we see Mila, Mila giving that kind of.
Oh, I love it. Oh God, I've got such a sweet
spot for it, that 2010 smoky IB, you know, that kind of it's like
half sort of oh, I'm just wearing a pencil skirt in the
office kind of thing. Big blowout, bit edgy bit rock
chick there's. Like a bit like, did I sleep in
this makeup? Maybe, yeah.
But I don't have to pull off that.
Kind of like Pussycat Dolls, Christina Aguilera, like sort of
weird filter. Do you know what I mean?
Of like, not much makeup, but lots of makeup.
I love it. Obsessed.
She looks amazing. She really, really does.
Yeah. She's so hot.
It'd be really fun to just have like that of yourself on film
looking like that. We say this all the time, yeah.
I love that this is an Oscar nominated film and this is what
we're talking. About their girls are hot.
The rules of feminism. The next day, Nina asks Toma to
reconsider and he kisses her unexpectedly and she bites him
and runs out of his office. And so this is our first glimpse
into him as a sexual predator. Yeah.
Later, Nina is surprised to find she has gotten the lead.
Well, don't skip over because I love that other girl over.
It's literally she's one of us because she's like, they're
waiting. They're like sort of doing,
they're sitting on the floor getting ready, waiting for the
who's got the part in the the ballet and crazy cuckoo Nina is
just staring at the other ballerinas and the other one is
basically like, what the fuck are you looking at?
Why is she always staring at me? Yeah.
It's just like you see her craziness and then crazy lady
says to her, oh, you know, well done.
And and then she thinks she's got the part, and then she
doesn't have the part, does she? That's right.
I love that she doesn't get enough time.
That girl like. She's the one that you were you
were talking about like she's not the one that's losing her
mind over being a ballerina. And she's also the one that's
not taking it seriously. She's the one that's training
quite good at it and just loving life.
Yeah, she's the the real story of this.
Yeah, she's also a bitch, but I like her for that.
Yeah, but so Nina's gotten the lead.
He gave her the part because she bit his lip and he's like, oh,
she could be bad, she could be dangerous.
She might not be just a good girl.
She calls her mom in from the toilet.
And then this is where we get the great shot of her seeing
whore written on the mirror and lipstick you.
See darling, you are a whore. And again, it's like just when
you thought you've stepped into a film that is like, you know, a
bit more highbrow. It's not going to be using the
same old tropes. No, we're in full on Showgirls
territory here. Someone is coming for her and is
writing it in a blood red lipstick.
You see, darlin, you are a whore.
I love the memes of her trying to scrub horror off the mirror.
Like, there's been fabulous memes and this movie is worth it
being made just for those. So Nina goes home, and then
there's the cake scene. What happens with the cake?
Well, her mum has bought this elaborate fucking cake and the
world's largest sheet cake. Yeah.
And it's like, for two of them, it's like, well done.
And then it's cutting her like a huge slice.
And then this is where we're getting sort of an insight into
clearly one of many traumas that Nina has in her life.
And it's implied that obviously eating is something that she,
she struggles with. And yet you've got this scene
where then the mum's like, oh, OK, fine, don't eat it.
It's nothing. I think it's useless, it's
rubbish and she throws it away and then Nina's then is forced
to kind of sit there and enjoy eating the cake and it just sort
of really shows their relationship from the get go.
Very effective, very fucked up relationship, the two of them.
And at this point, you still don't really understand what her
mum is, what her mum's back story is.
This is also where we see that she's got paintings of Nina all
over the apartment. Oh yeah, just drop that.
Oh. Yeah, this is some mummy
dearest, Yeah. It really is like it really is
this movie. All of the movies we know and
love to talk about on this podcast.
You can see a bit of them in this movie.
Yeah, Faye Dunaway is there in that Faye.
Dunaway is right there. Christina Aguilera in burlesque
is is in the room. Crystal Connors is here.
Lindsay Lohan. And I know who killed me.
You got a bit of barbed wire. I'm not.
What barbed wire is it or you just?
I don't know, you know. Okay, why not?
Why not? Sure, Chuck it.
Chuck in that for shits and giggles.
She's a cool. Girl, I don't know.
Barb Wire is not in this movie. I'll let you have the others,
but Barb Wire is not here. But it's very much in the in the
category of movies that I think we need to just have in our mind
now, which is there's always someone younger and hungry.
Hungry are coming down the stairs.
And it's also got a bit of notes on the scandal on it.
It's got a yeah because. The soundtrack is the
spiralling, melodramatic instrumental school which I I
feel like home now. Now that we've done Notes on the
Scandal, I feel safe in that soundtrack space.
Totally just. Spiralling out of control with
like an orchestra. With lesbian tension yeah makes
me really want to do all about eve yes okay there's a gala
celebrating the new season Tamar announces beths retirement and
he's yeah. Where did they say sorry?
Did you suck his cock? You're a fucking little.
Whore, that's coming up. Okay, sorry, yeah, I just wanted
to make sure we talked about that.
So this is the gala Toma is announcing best retirement.
He's like, she's fucking old. He's like the biggest put down.
Again. We see the same camera angles in
Showgirls, Yeah, when it's like we could have brought.
Anyone into this show? Latoya, Suzanne, you name it.
But yeah, there she is in the crowd, doesn't get a word,
doesn't get to stand on the stage.
She's just there in the audience and they're shitting all over
Winona. Yeah.
And yeah, it's like, look how old she is.
Do you know how old Winona is when she made this movie?
Oh God. I'm sat down to tell me. 38,
She's 38. I mean, you watch channel.
I mean, it's what you've been trained to think because I was
watching it like you're old and passed it.
Winona past it. Yeah, she's 38, she's getting
drunk, she's pissed off, she's not happy about her retirement.
Nina goes to the bathroom and she's hallucinating some
disgusting finger picking body horror stuff.
Yeah, this is the point where you're like, you need to go and
get a proper manicure. Yeah, because your nails are all
over the show. Go.
See Noemi Malone. Yeah, you get her nails.
Thanks yeah because her nails are monkey and mine are
disgusting but mine are like. Oh, she does that thing where
she like, peels A hangnail and it like peels up her whole
finger. It is.
Leave it alone own leave your fingernails alone.
But it's a hallucination or is it probably Lily also comes into
the bathroom and they're having a chat and then she takes off
her panties for some reason. Well, because you know she can.
She's a cool girl. She's a cool girl.
She's cool girl. Inside you there are two Swans,
ones a cool slut. Are the inside of me right now?
You would thought I would have noticed that well.
Then an intoxicated Beth publicly accuses Nina of
providing sexual favours to Tamar in return for the role.
Yes, OK. Did you suck his cock?
You're a fucking little whore. No, no, it's brilliant work.
And also it's giving me Julianne Moore.
In most of Julianne Moore's films, after she's had a couple
of drinks, you never got eye makeup going down like, oh, the
booze, the booze. Booze always wins, doesn't it?
She's wearing a lovely dress. Too.
I mean what I will say about when I never write this
character. They really haven't attempted to
give her any depth at all, have they?
No, it's like jealous. What if you?
Were a tired old showgirl. That's it, yeah.
Oh, Diary of a showgirl. Oh yeah, it's.
Yeah, well, there's the PAMI connection, not barbed wire.
Nina goes home with Toma and he's really fucking gross to her
and he gives her homework to go home and masturbate.
Every time you mention him, I just breathe in and pause.
There's a lot to unpack with his character and how it's presented
in this story, isn't. Yeah, we can get there.
Yeah, so she does. She goes home, she's having a
wank. I know I'm just saying that, but
then that's it just makes me laugh.
I know she really struggles, Blair So doesn't she?
Doesn't really know what she's doing but she does have a good
try and then jump cut scare to her mum who is in the room
sleeping in the chair. It's a great, it's a great.
Moment she would have known she was there.
I don't know. How gross.
The next day, Nina hears Beth has been hit in a car accident
and Toma believes she was attempting suicide.
Nina visits Beth in the hospital and is distraught to see her
injured legs. She's never going to dance
again. Again, showgirls.
Yeah, it's hospital. Visit It's really all there.
Then there's some more unraveling, more hallucinations,
more body horror, more rehearsals, more sexual assault
from Toma and Erica is painting portraits of Nina and sobbing.
Lots more bits of Toma being like no you're too nice and
perfect and clean, you need to be a slut.
Yeah, like, and then he kisses her and starts like, fingering
her, grabbing her tits, and she's into it, which is a really
problematic thing. Then he's like, that was me
seducing you, now you need to seduce me.
He's awful. Yeah.
One night, despite Erica's objections, Nina goes out with
Lily for drinks. Now we've all been here, I
think, haven't we? Which part?
We'll just, I actually, well, let's set it up a bit more now.
The first part of this night, it's really problematic because
Mila Kunis is offering her drugs, isn't she?
And that's not the. That's not the problem, no.
That's fine. That part is fine.
And it's like, come on, listen up, you know, last two hours.
Lily spends 2 minutes of Nina is like wow, this girl is buttoned
up. Yeah, she needs to let loose.
But Nina doesn't want to take the drugs so she and then she
goes away. She's been given an outfit that
Mila Kunis has on which is black and slightly slutty.
Oh my God, is she dipping her toes into the Black Swan?
And then she as she comes back we see Mila Kunis with two guys
having a laugh and about to spike Nina's drink.
Yep, that's it. She is going to spike her
because she thinks she's too frigid.
And So what would you do in that situation?
Who am I? You are Nina.
I mean, I'd take the drink. Yeah, but you, you're drinking,
you're having it already. You didn't need to spike me.
It's pretty fucking weird to then go and hang out and be like
oh this is this the one you spiked?
I'll have it then. I guess she knows that like
lilies, intentions are for her to have fun.
That is mental. It is.
I mean, it is. It is but.
I think she does. She doesn't even know her.
The thing is with this character is that she's like desperate to
please, isn't she? So she's like, and she's got no
fucking clue. So as soon as someone is like do
this, she's like, OK. Yeah, I mean, it's wild that she
then. Yeah, but then goes on to have
what looks like a really fun time, actually.
Yeah, it looks like suddenly they've gone from like a shit
Chelsea esque cocktail bar with some fucking wankers to her
being in the toilet cubicle making out with a hot guy in a
dirty club. And I'm like, suddenly I'm robe.
I'm like, we've gone to the right place, we've gone to the.
Right place now, yeah, that was the wrong place beforehand,
yeah. And I was like, yeah, that's the
fun place. I mean, it's a camp clue, but I
love like scene of a of a woman cutting loose and she's like,
she's had some drugs. She's like embracing the dark
side and she's like, I'm going to go out and fucking dance.
Yeah, and just like, fucking own it on the floor.
And like, it's very Christina Aguilera.
I'm not myself tonight. Very there.
Isn't it just like, but don't I think everybody loves that, You
know, when it's just like every now and again, you might just be
like, I'm just going to lose me and you lose friends along the
way and you're just like, I'm just going to be someone
completely different. I'm just gonna lose myself under
those splashing lights, yeah. Is that this?
My God, There's a Sugar Babe song that's come to mind.
You know the Sugar Babes one, Then their last variation.
Yeah, there was like a really bad song where it's like I like
the lights and the games they play, and it's like strobe
lights. Other moment, other notable
times has happened. Buffy and Faith and Buffy they
have they have like a wild night out where they go dancing in
girls. What's her face has coke and
like I think it's the Dancing on My Own by Robin.
And I like the great trope. I like the way they go.
I mean, obviously it's not a comedy.
I hate it when it's like they do it and then the troopers, they
like, they're like crazy and kooky and they've done
something. I like it when it's like unleash
the pop video vixen in them. Yeah.
And the bit that I really relate to, I think they've done, I
think the way that they filmed all of that.
And like when she leaves the club and it's all kind of like
the air's hitting her and she's a bit.
I I feel like that was quite authentic and I'm like, well,
I've been there. Yeah.
The other bit though, that I was just that it leads onto is I
have definitely been in a nightclub where I have thought
that I've been making out with myself.
Like fully like she did in the film.
It's like where I've been so high that I've literally thought
I was making out with myself. I had my own Black Swan moment.
Like no, it was like it was years and years ago.
Kissing someone. Yes, it was at Bergkine and they
must have looked similar ish to me, but I had a moment where I
was like kissing myself and I remember just being to myself
like you are so fucking stop right now go with it.
You can't question it, just kiss yourself.
And then it obviously wasn't I well I don't know maybe it was
my black sword moment, but I was actually watching it and I was
like I was like what does this remind me of?
And then I was like I have done this exact same.
This explains something. I think that's when you got
replaced by your evil twin, and ever since we've been dealing
with the dark version of you from Berlin.
Honestly, yeah, I was like. The good baby Lane's been
stabbed in a toilet cubicle in Bergheim.
Bring back that baby Lane. But that scene, but then it goes
into, I haven't had sex with myself.
I've never gone down on myself as far as I know.
Maybe, hey, maybe I did, maybe I don't remember.
Tried. You're not flexible enough.
Do people actually try? Everybody's tried.
I mean, I must have tried, but I think, I think with me, I think
I knew that I wouldn't be able to like I can barely touch my
toes, so I'm not going to be like deep throating myself.
What about you with your big muscles?
You bendy as well, Crystal. Let's move on.
Oh, does that mean you can? Let's move on.
No, but let's talk about the sex scene.
Yeah, no, we're, yeah. Because no, we're not quite
there yet. Because she.
I just want to shout out to the fact that she gets fingered in
the back of a taxi. Oh, sorry, yeah.
Have you ever? Fingered someone in the back of
the taxi, yeah. Probably.
I don't think I have. Maybe not fingered I.
Don't know God, why? You don't have to, no.
You can though. Well, I feel like I'm going to
now. I remember giving someone a hand
job during the Sherlock Holmes sequel movie in the cinema in
Brixton and it was really, really full and he had a coat
over him and I remember just giving him a hand job.
There we go, Sherlock Holmes too.
I know. Like fucking hell.
Oh. That's cute though.
I like that. That's queering heteronormity.
So I want to watch it with you so I can relive the experience
with you. I don't know those were, but
yeah, it's just like when you're younger and you're like, I'm
feeling really provocative now. Again, the Black Swan was in me.
We've all got our Black Swan moments, You know where it's
just like, that's the Black Swan noise.
Yeah, your knees cracking and. Yeah.
Sprouting and then before you know it, you're jerking off a
stranger and every man to Sherlock Holmes.
But then so we're in full on lesbo mode now, which we love.
This is something that Showgirls doesn't go this far.
No. We, we want to see it in
Showgirls, but they sort of dive into their apartment, don't
they? Like she's getting really like
Larry with her mum. When her mum's like, what does
she say? Her mum, she's like where have
you been or who? Have you?
Yeah. She's like the moon and back.
Yeah, and then she's like, you want their names?
And she's like, they fucked me or something like that.
Yeah, she's really letting her. Rubbing it in her mum's face and
it's, it's a gorgeous thing to see.
And then they Sprint into her bedroom, shut the door and then
just lesbian scene, isn't it? Yeah, it's a a lot of
cunnilingus. Deep, deep cunnilingus from Mila
Kunis, Yeah. Nina probably finally gets off.
Yeah, well, you think. Yeah.
I mean, she's like grunting and screaming.
It reminded me of that story that you told me.
It's very bold to be like having sex in someone's house, isn't
it? With the mother next door.
I think if you listen to my Rolodex of memories, it was But
I'm a Cheerleader podcast if you need that story.
If you haven't listened already, Crystal tells a lovely tale.
Julia, the AC The next morning, Nina wakes up.
She's all confused. She's a bit hungover.
She's late, she's got a show to do and.
She's alone, and the route, the door that she barred shut from
the inside is still barred shut. Where the hell is Lily?
So she rushes out and she sees Lily dancing as the Black Swan
and confronts her about their sexual encounter.
Lily's like, wait, what? I didn't go home with you.
Did you have a Lesie dream about me?
Did you have a lesbian dream about me?
Was I good? I like that.
I like her response to it because she's like kind of not
shaming her. No, no, she's.
Kind of into it. Yeah, yeah.
She wants to know what she was like in it.
Yeah. Because you could imagine in a
different movie that she'd be like, EW.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she's not.
And also it's like, it's really hard to know if that like that
choice that was made by the writers and like, the creative
team because obviously they're like men, as we decided.
And there's lots of, like, gross decisions made in this film.
Yeah. It's interesting that they
didn't go with that. Yeah, but yeah, so Nina imagined
it all, and then she's becoming convinced that Lily is intending
to replace her, especially after learning that Toma has made Lily
her alternate. Oh.
Nina's mysterious injuries and hallucinations grow most more
severe. Yes, I hope she has.
She's got like, back scratchy things.
Her nails are falling off. We're seeing like she's giving
me like Mystique in X-Men. Yeah, it's kind of like a
rippling, scaly, feathery thing going on.
So she's giving like it's like a plucked goose.
Texture, isn't it? Yeah.
Like goose. Goose flesh, Yeah.
Chicken skin. Yeah, she sees Lily and Toma
having sex. Or does she?
Toma also turns into Rothberg, the like, evil wizard.
I don't know. She's having a time.
She goes to the hospital and sees Winona and is like giving
back all the things she stole and then Winona starts stabbing
herself in the face with a letter opener.
Yeah, that's gross. Isn't it really horrible?
By this time I'm like, I forgot how body horror all of this is
and she's really going for it. And again, pretty one note,
Winona is just stabbing her face, but then she rushes off,
doesn't she? She runs away and then she's
she's drops the right. So it's like.
Did that happen? Probably not.
Or did she stab her? 00.
There's a lot. Of when she drops it, is it
bloody? I don't know, can't remember.
Yeah. It also like when on his face
becomes her face right? Yeah.
And that happens quite a few times.
And that, you know, I've been there, yeah.
You've literally been there. Anyway, it all culminates in an
incident where she believes she's transforming into the
Black Swan, and she has a huge blowout with her mother.
She like, slams the door on her mum's hand.
Oh, that's horrible. And yeah, she's like, basically
losing her goddamn mind. America attempts to prevent Nina
from performing on opening night, and they fight some more
and Nina leaves. She's going to do the show.
I'm the Swan Queen and you never left the core.
I think the mum character is quite interesting because like,
she's obviously overbearing, problematic, a little bit
abusive, but she obviously also does really care.
And I think there's an interesting, like they, they
dial it up and down kind of interestingly.
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you're like, oh, this
mom is like really worried about her daughter and her daughter's
mental health. But there is a very layered
relationship because there's also a huge jealousy vibes from
the daughter obsession. Yeah, yeah.
It's really weird. Yeah.
But also like that, that bond, like when she gets accepted into
the the ballet, she sells her mom and they're like, crying and
happy. Yeah.
It's a really toxic, interesting relationship.
And it's, it could have so easily been much more mommy
dearest ghoulish. And I like that it's.
Got exploitation of the mum, but again, you kind of don't know
where you sit with the mum like she's not and.
Also, how much of it is like in Nina's head?
Yeah. So anyway, Lily was prepping to
go on in Nina's place, but Nina convinces Toma to let her do the
part. She imagines her toes becoming
webbed. Towards the end of the ballet's
first act. Nina is distracted by a
hallucination and loses her balance during a lift, causing
the Prince to drop her, infuriating Tama, and she's
devastated. All of all of her hard work.
Yeah, yeah. And she?
Can't even do the White Swan. That's the thing.
She I. Know exactly like how shit are
you? You know who can do it?
Mila Kunis. Right, so Nina returns to her
dressing room and there is Mila Kunis Lily preparing to play the
Black Swan in her dressing room. She's like in her.
Room. Yeah, I know.
Psycho, isn't she? So she confronts her and as
they're fighting, Lily transforms into Nina and then so
then the two ninas are fighting. They break a mirror and Nina
stabs bad Nina with a Shard of glass, killing her and breaking
the illusion, and she turns back into Lily.
And then she drags her dead corpse into the shower room and
she gets on with the show. Doesn't That's showbiz, kids.
That's what you've got to do. Sometimes you have to just pick
up the pieces and go to town. There's always someone younger
and hungrier coming down the stairs after you.
The show must go on. She then dances Florida State as
the Black Swan and she begins to turn into a swan.
I love as the Black Swan, like the red, the red.
Eyes the like determination, her face, the the net mask.
And what I will say is, although like we've been signposted this
all the way through the film about like, you're too pretty.
You need to be more seductive, you need to be dangerous, you
need to lose your technique, it really, she really does.
And like, the choreography and the movement is suddenly like,
really different to what we've seen her doing.
And it's like, beautiful the way it's all shot, isn't it?
Totally. It's she plays the Nina role so
annoying, infantile, like you're so you just like want to shake
her and like tell her to grow up.
Snap out of it. Stop being like this.
And it's kind of annoying. But then when you see the other
side of her, you're like, oh, you were doing a really good job
of convincing me that that was you.
Yeah, because when there's a bit where she starts like breathing
and feeling her body and it's so monstrous and just like it's,
it's really impressive performance, I think.
Her arms are covered in feathers, she does the like 34
turns which are famous in Swan Lake, and she gets a standing
ovation from the audience and then rushes off stage and kisses
Tomah. She's like I've embraced the
dark side. Yeah, I mean that part.
Grim in her dressing room, she Nina starts to costume change
back into the white Swan makeup, but she's interrupted by.
Literally not jealous of that. That must be quite stressful on
top of what else she's got to go on.
It's hard when you've done one, when you've done one makeup look
to go in and out. Changing makeup looks.
Multiple times. I mean, that's enough to send
anyone crazy, quite frankly, isn't it?
Because like, what she'd been setting her face with, you know,
it's like, not only is she having to perform and become a
dark song, which she's never been able to achieve before, she
also has to do her own hair and makeup.
And I just think I feel quite sorry for.
So much black gel liner on in that black.
Black gel liner though it's. Hard to get off that's on you
for days after. And she's got to go back to
being the wife. I think that's enough to send
anyone crazy. You know what?
You would kill your rival. Killed Liz, I killed the teen
Dream. Deal with it.
Yes, that's why you should never go into the cupboards at Bethel
Green working Men's Club because they are full of dead people.
Yes, we had no choice. Absolutely.
It was the makeup. So she's changing back.
The door knocks. It's Lily.
She's not dead. She congratulates Nina on her
performance. But, but, but she's supposed to
be dead. What's going?
On. Nina then sees that the mirror
is still broken. So what's happened?
And then she the bot, but the body's gone.
This. And then she looks down and she
pulls a piece of glass from her stomach, realizing she stabbed
herself and not Lily. Yuck.
Yep. Despite her injury, she dances
the final act of the ballet with blood gradually seeping through
her costume. And this is giving very goddess
performance this. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, The
Stardust proudly presents the White Swan.
The show ends with her jumping from the set onto a mattress to
simulate the swan throwing herself off a Cliff.
Everyone is thrilled. Thunderous applause.
Everyone rushes to congratulate her.
And then they realize she's bleeding and it cuts to her
blood seeping through her costume.
And she says, I felt it perfect. I was perfect.
And then the movie fades to white and she seemingly dies.
Yeah, an interesting ending, isn't it?
Very interesting because there's quite a few different readings
on the ending. Yeah.
So something Natalie Portman has said in later years is that she
likes to think it was a signal of re rebirth into being a
woman. And so it's a metaphor.
Oh. Which is interesting, but maybe
giving the film a little bit too much credit.
Well, that's nice. Rather than it being a deaf
scene, but. Right.
That would be better. Yeah, I think, I think.
Do you think maybe that's why she's spun that narrative, to
try and make this slightly problematic film?
Yeah, yeah. So maybe, yeah, should we talk
about the the ending like this transformation and the ending
because the substance is actually another really.
I mean, the substance is also falls under.
Yeah, the younger and hungry are coming down the stairs after
you. And.
But that movie ends in a kind of a similar way where it's like
the character who's been through so much, she's been pushed to
her limit. She finally snaps.
But in the substance, it's this cathartic release where she
punishes everyone who's been bad to her.
Yeah. And then it ends with her dying.
But she is like, happy. She's like deluded.
She's finally free. She's like, like there's a
catharsis, a joy, a release. And it's like she's punished
everyone. She's gotten what she wants.
But yeah, I don't get that from Nina, from Natalie Portman.
Do you not get, do you not get that she's happy at the last
ending? Yeah.
I mean, I'm not saying the journey's been.
Beating yeah. And it's like, it's like her
delusion has won rather than she's gotten some kind of
freedom or power. Well, it's Oh my God, I can't
believe I'm going to say this. It is that question of like is
great art only achieved through. Suffering, yeah.
Literally the most like feels like the most cliche that you
could say in the world. I don't know if I care or
believe in that. Yeah, that's definitely like
what the movie is asking. I don't know.
I just it's a little simplistic. The whole film is simplistic,
like the metaphor about, you know, we're going to intertwine
the story of the ballet, the blacks, the white swan in with
her story. It's just a bit like, is this
all you could come up with? You know, it doesn't take any
twists and turns from that, does it?
It's like. Totally.
It's it's it's fine to do that and like especially for a horror
movie like that's it's a great premise for a horror movie.
It's just interesting that it ended up with like so much
critical acclaim. Yes, so much Oscar buzz, all of
that stuff because. Because what?
Yeah. Like, the elements of it are
like, is it just because it's the ballet, you know?
I mean, because it's like, you know, as much as I enjoyed the
like, hallucinogenic lesbian scene that is just like Betty if
ever I've seen it, do you know what I mean?
There's no like smartness to it. Like smartness.
But Mila Kunis isn't a particularly deep character.
Like she doesn't have any. She doesn't have anything to
her, does she? There's no like turn or twist or
anything. There's no substance to her
character. The 0 substance to Winona Ryder.
The mum's interesting. We don't get to know anything
about her though, really. And then the creepo teacher.
Like everyone's pretty one note characters, aren't they?
Yeah, for sure. It reminds.
It reminded me of Notes on the Scandal.
I know you already said that, but yeah, it reminded me of
Notes on the Scandal. Just in that like kind of trashy
pulpy story with a high art drag costume on and and like an art
house aesthetic. Because that's the thing, like
the twisty bits are done really well, aren't they?
Like all of the filmography Like because you they're always like
hidden things, whether it's in like a face hidden somewhere in
the. Eyes moving in a painting.
Yeah. Blinking.
You miss. Like, a very small thing happens
on her body. But like, yeah, not everything's
like they again, they've kind of done that very tastefully.
Yeah. So you are getting like tricked
into thinking this is like art, but ultimately it's pretty
basic. It's yeah, it is just an All
About Eve. It's a Showgirls.
It's a. And also as well, I feel like
the other thing that it does is it's like it's clever the way
that you jump in and out of her reality to start with, but then
it just becomes so polluting genic, which I guess makes sense
of what's happening to her, but to the point where it's like
they can kind of make stuff happen.
And because they're like, we're not going to explain it because
it's an art film, they can just kind of get away with being
sloppy. Like you're making all of these
big swings, but none of them really mean anything because you
can argue that it happened or it didn't happen.
Yeah, there's a lot of get out of jail free.
Characters and then so by the end you're just like and you
know, and it's I love an ending that where you're unsure of
what's happened, but it's like a really smug like what do you
think? Has she died or is it an another
hallucination? It's like.
Yeah, I saw someone else talk about this, but saying that when
they do like an open-ended thing like that, you want at least to
think that the director has decided.
Yeah. And in this case, you're like,
it feels like he doesn't even know, and that's kind of
annoying. Yeah, definitely.
Let's have let's make sure that there is a point because
otherwise you're just being like, well, what if?
And it's a kind of edge lordy. And it's like, no, come on,
like, what do you think? What what is your, what point
are you making here? And that was like my problem
with the Tomah character the whole way through because yes, I
think you're meant to see him as a creep, a sexual predator, like
all that. But I think it doesn't do a good
enough job of like, hammering home that he's like part of the
problem in her life because at the end she kisses him.
Yeah, there's like weird. Like even when she gets fully
realized and she finds her power, et cetera, she still goes
to him. Emissive to him, Yeah.
And. And it's like he was right all
along it. Was like, there's a bit of that.
Everything he was saying, every practice that he employed, it's
interesting. I was talking to someone the
other day is like he trained at a clown school of really famous
like Philip Gullier and he had lots of very like problematic,
not sexually problematic, but problematic methods of teaching
people was very brutal, make people cry, upset a lot of
people and like be seen as this God and it's he died recently
and a lot of people are devastated because of the
practice he brought to crowning. But a lot of other people are
just sort of saying he was really toxic and really mean and
and sort of continued a lot of behaviours in the industry like
that. So it's just an interesting.
Yeah. It's just sort of made me think
about that. It's just like these people are
sort of held up in society, but like.
Awful. Yeah.
And I guess it's kind of but. They're not making that point.
I don't think that. Yeah, it's almost like they are
a bit because they're, but they then.
They also, I think, I don't think they stray away enough
from the idea that she kind of wants it.
Right, right. Yeah.
There's like a a lot of a lot of that where if you're being
generous to this movie, you're like, oh, all of her struggles
are a product of like a problematic mother, the
pressures put on women, the desire to be perfect, like all
of these things have combined. But then it doesn't actually
deliver at the end. And maybe I'm just asking to be
handled a bit too much on a platter, but like, I wish she'd
broken free of those things. A really simple fix at the end
to make it a more satisfying thing for that is she could have
gone towards him like she was going to go and kiss him and
then she could have gone to the male lead dancer and just like
snogged him in front of him and then just like ripped off away
and then just laugh at the guy like and just be like a bit
crazy. And that would have just helped
that, wouldn't it? Yeah, Just like, yeah, it's not
like he needs to be punished. It's not like it needs to end
with him being no. It's completely fine to just
show that that's a horrible character that exists, yeah.
Yeah, and you know, in real life that man wouldn't be punished
and he would just stay in as an artistic director and everyone
would be like, oh, there's rumours about him and blah,
blah, blah. But yeah, there's there's
something missing for her character.
Yeah, because as well, like she doesn't, she never instigated
like wanting his sexual attention to start with.
Like you can imagine if she misread the signs in an early
scene and then tried to kiss him and then it sort of sets the
seed a little bit that she. But it doesn't.
The first interaction they have is he's a man in power and then
he aggressive. Yeah.
And then he aggressively launches himself on her.
So, yeah, not camp. No.
Just in case you were wondering our point, everyone that's
that's not camp. Yeah.
And. But spiraling like what?
Something that is Come to Me is like, I love these smallish
situations that we all put ourselves into and spiralling
within them because ultimately it's just about 1 show, isn't
it? It's not like a bigger issue.
But I love the kind of melodrama and the the frenzy and the
hurricane of emotions in like a very simple life thing that is
Come to Me. Yeah, and like watching, you
know, someone have like a mental breakdown in a melodramatic way
on stage. Like, yeah, it's.
Through dance as well. Yeah, of course.
That's like, yeah, it's it's fabulous.
But I wish, I wish she'd gotten her power.
She can die even at the end. But like, I want her to have
been like unleashed. Yeah, like if the last shot
would have been the Black Swan looking up and like that was
perfect or something, not going back to her being like, because
that is part of her. The Black Swan was part of her.
And that's why it was so satisfying to see it get in her,
wasn't it? Yeah, but like you said, it
didn't. It didn't lend itself to
anything other than like, impressing the douchebag.
Totally. And then the other thing, I
guess it's kind of related, like this idea that you can either,
you can either be a virgin or a whore.
Like those are the 2 mother or whore.
Like those are the two kinds of women.
You can be, you can be pure or you can be a slut.
And like, I think the movie sets that up interestingly.
And like, OK, great. This movie is going to be an
interesting examination of like how it's problematic to expect
people to be one or the other and you can't be both.
But then it doesn't actually. It's like, no, it doesn't go
anywhere with that. It's got the same level of like
character depth as like Grease has in regards to that, right?
Sandy is going to be a bad girl now.
It's like. Yeah.
And so I guess you're kind of seeing like the male writers
over that in that regard a bit. Over the over the talent of the
of like I think Natalie Portman is really good in this, but like
she's there's only so much she can do with the material isn't.
Totally. It's like what?
Because. She like physically, did you
read about like what she did to her body for this?
Like, I think it's something like she trained for three hours
a day for three months, and then that went up to six hours for
like two months. And then for the final stint,
she was like doing 10 hours. She, like, physically, like,
broke herself doing it. Yeah.
So sort of for that kind of, you know, commitment to the role, I
think is. And also she needed to be like
that, didn't she? Because you can tell me the
Kunis isn't really right. You never look at her and go,
oh, wow, she's a ballerina. Do you was with Natalie?
You're like everything about her.
And it's like the way her body's presented as well.
It's like it looks like it's been put through it.
Totally, my husband does ballet he came in towards.
The Black Swan or. White, But he was like, yeah,
she looks, she looks good. Apparently they did CGI her face
onto another dancer quite a lot. And they weren't.
Was the dancer a swan? And they were not about to,
like, talk about that in press because this is part of the
Oscar pitch. You're like, yeah, incredible.
Yeah, and the fucking storyline I've just been fed about like
what she did go and do. Yeah, so the dancer who was her
body double has come out and been like, fuck this movie.
They didn't give me the credit I deserve.
Like, yeah, she looks good from the waist up, but anything else
you see is me. Oh.
Fuck her. Yeah.
Yeah, well, so. It's, you know, probably a bit
of truth in both. I don't know what else.
I mean, if you obviously like when a film is pitched like this
and that, you know, like as you said, there was a whole Oscars
campaign, they would never not going for an Oscar award-winning
film. Yes.
And when can you just like, put that stuff to the side?
Like, you know, we've talked about like kind of the
problematic things. If you just watch this as like
another Show Girls thing, can you just view it as being purely
camp and stupid? Yeah, that's how I thought.
I was just like. It's not like a feel good movie
in the same way. I think because Natalie Portman
does a great job of portraying someone having a mental
breakdown and like you really see all the pain she's going
through. It's, it's not a romp to watch,
but it is fun. It's a fun movie to like, think
about and like, I like having it in my brain, like kind of
percolating and it's. Pacey You kind of don't get
bored with it, do you? Yeah, the horror stuff is really
effective, I think, like. Yeah.
And it hasn't really dated. I think in terms of it like the
way you watch it, you're like, Oh yeah, this is, I thought the
substance as well. And again, like, interesting
that no one's really that I've heard like because there's lots
of comparisons, but I've not really mentioned anyone with
black this one. And yeah, let's say Black Widow,
the Rita Ora and Nicky Azalea song, but black song and the
substance. But yeah, no, I thought and
yeah, overall, I just thought it, you know, it's just, it's
got oomph, hasn't it? It's got yeah, and it's.
But it's basic. It is like it.
It's a film that thinks it's way better than it is and way more
complicated than it is, because it's really very, very simple to
follow. It's not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels a bit like The Academy
Is like, oh, they've made a good horror movie, everyone And.
And we're kind of easily dazzled by that.
Yeah. Because it's not.
It's like, oh, a genre film is getting is good like.
But if she was a stripper and it was exactly the same script.
Right. Well, head over to the Gatreon
for our episode on striptease. And we like covering all of the
dancing films we haven't done. What's it?
I was about to say? Chases.
It's not called chases. That's a funny name for a film.
The one Jlo Hustlers. Hustlers.
Yes, I love hustlers. Actually, we should cover
Hustlers. Yeah, because you're right.
It's it is just girls gone wild, catfights pushing down the
stairs like there can only be one woman.
We better fight. It does break 1 trope but I'm
not here for we all know Sue gives a fuck.
Said it. They can't have the same colour
hair with their enemies. I mean that's just like the
rules of feminism. And I know that meal is a bit
more of like I don't know, she's got a bit of an all Bernie like
Blondie multi layered caramel tone to her hair.
But ultimately they both have dark hair.
Where is the blonde and where is?
I'm surprised in this film they didn't go that literal.
That's so true. But I guess that's what that's
what the Academy was picking up on.
These big risks, these big swings.
I've never seen anything like it before.
This movie stars three women with brown hair.
And the innocent virgin has dark hair.
I hate her outfits. Can I say Natalie Portman when
she's good girl? She's dressed like Melania
Trump, like pink tweed and like feathery scarves.
Oh yeah, she is, isn't she? Oh yeah.
Awful. I'm glad that we got that point
there. How?
Am I supposed to have sympathy for this character when you're
wearing a pink tweed coat and like a floofy feather boa?
Gross. The rules of feminism.
Anyway, what about the lesbian stuff?
Lesbians are great nowadays, I mean.
It's great to see. We'd love to see it.
I think this was a lesbian awakening for a lot of people,
this movie. Yeah, it's hot.
It's hot, yeah, but. It doesn't really feel like it's
earned, does it? No, and it's and it doesn't feel
like it's unlocking anything in Natalie Portman.
No, it's kind of annoying that way.
It feels a little bit like if we get them to kiss, it will get
people to and. The wild girl just doesn't care
about that, even though she's she doesn't do it like you know,
she's just I make out with girls all the time.
It doesn't. Whereas again, there's something
quite powerful really and like her first big orgasm and the
unlocking is through a woman, but they've just kind of I mean,
it's a deep it's a deep dive that media is doing.
She is eating her out. That is eating someone out.
Like you can feel the like the tongue is scraping her very thin
body is right to the back, almost poking out of her bum
hole. But yeah, it is like male gaze
lesbian is a. Little bit and the fact that I
guess that it's like, oh, it was it all a dream it was all a
dream means that like they're they can kind of do the
lesbianism without ever having to actually interrogate like
what that would mean for totally.
Characters and again it doesn't link to.
It doesn't link to anything. And there's not, You don't ever
get a sense of her being sexually interested in Mila
Kunis or after. And then as we said, the last
big moment that happens is she kisses the guy again.
So it's not saying that she couldn't be bisexual, but it's
just it implies that she just wants his.
Yeah, it feels a bit chucked in. Yeah, that's annoying.
But like, if you love this movie because you think it's hot and
you're a lesbian, then, like, more power to you.
Yeah. Fair enough.
Yeah, totally. Carpet munchers.
OK, should we rate this movie? Yes.
Let's start with Merrill's one to 10 Merrill's for the quality
of the movie. Well, are we going to argue with
the Academy here? I think I'm going to rate it
pretty high. Go on, you go first.
I'm kind of in like a 7 or 8 frame of mind.
I'm going to give it a 7 1/2. Yeah.
I think it's well made. I think it's a delight to watch.
I think it's well acted. I think it's gripping.
I think the cinematography is good and effective.
I feel really uneasy watching it.
The dancing's great. It's not as good as it thinks it
is. No, but who is right?
No, I agree with you. I'm going to give it a 7.
But like, it's it's a really, it's a shame that it's written
by men and it's a shame there's a male director that that really
sort of sours it because you just think this subject matter,
this concept with like a few more female voices behind the
scenes, it probably would have had some more nuance, which it
lacks, Yeah, which would have made it a really great film.
But it is beautiful. Cinematography is great.
It hasn't dated. And I love, I love the way the
choreography is. I think it's just, yeah, it's
really watchable as well. I watch it again.
Absolutely. So Seven.
Yes, great. Groundbreaking.
OK, what about Liza's? How camp is this movie?
I think I need to refer to the the criteria which I know you
know off the top of your head. Yeah, but does it give you a
wetty? Sometimes the, like, the queer
joy, I think is tempered by like, the problems you can see.
Yeah. It's also like it's not joyous
to watch a woman suffer like. No, and also as well.
It's not queer joy. It's just like queers gazing in
other people's joys. Yeah.
Do you know what I mean? It's straight joy.
Yeah. It's not my joy to joy about,
but I'm looking in and I'm still getting some joy from it.
But it's not. It's not my joy.
Yeah, it's again, like, I think comparing it to the substance,
if she'd had like, her queer breakthrough moment at the end
of the movie and she'd been like, Dark Phoenix, just like,
fucking shit up, going after Mila Kunis, like kissing her.
Killing, yeah, killing someone on stage.
Just like, really. Fucking not being a victim, not
being the fucking White Swan all of your life.
Yeah. And then just like basking in
the applause, but like, we know that she's just fucked someone
up backstage, killed him, whatever.
I'd be like, that is queer. Joy.
That's queer joy. Yeah.
So this is straight joy, right? It's not.
Stupid. Well, it is, but it's it.
Is stupid. But it is but.
It isn't dumb dumb. It's like, yeah, here's this
kooky idea. They're gonna this main story
and the plot. But it's it's not.
OK. Yeah, you're right, but it's not
stupid fun in the way I normally consider.
Oh, it's not stupid fun. It's stupid.
It's not stupid fun. Underdog Flop No.
No. Ongoing legacy, yeah.
Has it been reclaimed by the the queers?
I don't think it has. When I think about, it's like a
notes on the scandal, when I think there's something meta,
queer meta camp about it because it was like this kind of trashy
movie that got so celebrated and it's like people acting their
fucking tits off in this movie that is actually kind of tawdry.
Yeah. And there's something camp about
that. Yeah.
And like it's always there is always going to be a camp Ness
to two women fighting over one spot on the stage.
But also as well the facts, you can watch it and it is basically
Showgirls and knowing that they put all of that effort into this
film and ultimately it is still Showgirls that is quite camp
that. Is camp.
OK, I'm going to give it 7. Oh wow.
I think it is. Yeah, yeah.
OK, great. I'll give it a 7 too.
Yeah. It's just a different type of
camp that we don't often touch it on, but yeah.
I feel like we explained all the reasons why it wasn't camp, but
then we gave it a really high score.
But you know what? Sometimes it's a feeling.
Stupid, isn't it? Yeah.
Losing your mind over ballet, I mean.
Sometimes you know the criteria is just a guide and.
It's a feeling. It's a feeling.
Well, there you go.
That's Black Swan. That's not.
The name of that is the name of Swan Lake Black Swan.
I'm very confused. I'm going to go and get a mirror
and smash it and shove it into your stomach now or am I?
Great, and I'm going to go try and eat myself out.
Yes, I recommend it. Seriously, get yourself to that
club. It's good, good time.
Bye. Get away from her you bitch.
Classic. He was in the Amazon with my mom
when she was researching spiders right before she died.
You thought you become a prostitute or a dog at it.
I used to love doggy chow. I used to love doggy chow too.