Hola, It's Crystal here, coming to you live from Brazil.
If you listen carefully, you can actually hear the sound of waves
lapping in the distance. I could hear people getting
bored with me, but I couldn't stop.
Sorry this week's episode is coming up shortly, but I wanted
to let you know some exciting news.
Camp Classics is hosting our first ever live event in March.
It's happening in collaboration with the British Film Institute
as part of Flair Festival. Been a pressure.
Flair is the BF is annual LGBT Film Festival and our event is
happening on March 26th, which is a Thursday.
The event is called Queerly Beloved. 4 celebs will be
bringing a non queer movie that they think should be entered
into the queer lexicon. Baby and I and the audience will
decide it's going to be really camp.
Tickets are on sale next Friday, February 26th at noon.
It's at the BFI in London and seating is super limited so I
would really suggest you buy early if you can come.
And just think, this is your chance to shout wig in a room
full of like minded souls. Wow, Damien, you truly outgate
yourself. Hope to see you there.
Get away from her. You.
Bitch. Blasting.
He was in the Amazon primal when she was researching spiders
right before she died. I used to love.
Doggy chow I used. To love doggy chow too.
I'll let you put it anywhere. I'm Crystal.
What is this grandma with a birthday present?
Suck it you dumb bitch. I'm sue gives a fuck.
Oh my God. That's what I went with.
And welcome to Camp Classics. A thoughtful movie about camp
podcasts. I forgot to tell you.
That's now correct. Yeah, that's correct.
That's what it is. This is.
This is a movie of. It is a movie of Sorry, it's.
Thoughtful podcast about camp movies.
Every two weeks we are here discussing, rating, and
exploring the peaks and valleys in the genre of camp in the
search for the campus of Camp Classics.
And I'm joined, of course, by the gorgeous Sue Gives a Fuck.
Delighted to be standing in those very, very large shoes of
Miss Baby Lame, who for present purposes is in a drawer under my
bed. Oh.
Right, I was gonna say has fallen victim to one of my
psychosexual mind games. Have you ever fucked on cocaine,
Nick? She's crudely drawn in a
notebook, photocopied liberally. She wishes she was in my
notebook. What do I think of her?
Yes, I don't think of her. Before we get into today's
episode, we do have a Gatreon where you can get a bonus
episode every month. You could be like Juno, Francis
and Tess who are new members. Thank you folks for being here.
Thanks Juno, Francis and Tess. Yeah, or you could be like Mr.
Bree, Bree and Laura who joined, rinsed the free membership and
then cancelled. And you know what?
We support that too. Laura, you better get your bag.
You know what you're doing. Times are tough.
I do the same thing with subscription meal services.
Help me, I'm poor. I bet you can get like you could
probably eat for a whole month on the like free.
You can eat for a month and then move to the next one and then
the next one. I think I've tried about four
now. I love that, love that.
Well, we're much less expensive. We're basically the price of a
posh coffee, so and you get, you know, a whole extra hour and a
half of our nonsense every month so.
Own posh people. But to seeing as baby isn't
here, do you think you could tell the listeners what makes a
camp classic? I will give it a go.
I have studied diligently for this role.
A camp classic is something that unlocks Queer Joy King.
It is something that it has a legacy.
It is something that is underground slash flop vibes.
And there's one more. It is stupid joy.
Stupid fun. Stupid fun.
I got AB minus for that you. Did very well, I'd say.
Yeah, good work. All right, she.
Listens to the podcast. And today we're actually letting
the listeners down because we are doing 2 movies, neither of
which is a flop. You're right, actually, they're
both successes. Yeah, we're doing something a
bit different today. We're doing 2 movies, 1 episode.
This was not the original plan. No, it was not.
I asked Sue to come on and we were originally going to do
Dangerous Liaisons on the main feed and then Cruel Intentions
on the Gatreon. And then I watched both of them
and I was like, I can't, I can't talk about both of these movies
for yeah, they're the same movie.
Same movie, same subject matter. Yeah, but I in my memory they
were quite different. But no, they're not.
And so we're doing versus episode today.
We're going to pit 2 Titans of sex games against each other and
see which one's camper the girls are.
Fighting and I think I know who's going to win.
Yeah. Well, we'll see.
We'll see. Yeah.
So that'll be fun. We're doing Dangerous Liaisons
and Cruel Intentions. Perhaps we're calling it cruel
and dangerous. Cruel and dangerous.
That's what I'm calling it. I was also.
Wondering like what other titles would fit that format?
I mean, Basic Constinct is also along those lines, isn't it?
But like unnecessary journeys, don't make unnecessary journeys.
You need remakes and things that are on the same subject matter.
First is. Oh no, I meant other.
What? Because the titles are like kind
of you. Just go in titles.
Yeah, yeah. What other things could these
movies have been called? Right.
OK so I was going Emma and clueless.
Right which? Is a whole different vibe.
Yeah, that would be quite fun. The Gwyneth Paltrow, Emma and
the Alicia Silverstone. Clueless.
Yeah. Pretty calm, sure.
Taming of the Shrew and 10 Things I Hate About You I don't
know, is there a movie? Oh, and they rhyme.
Gorgeous. Love that.
Well, we've comes the end of that segment now, haven't we?
We did really well. We got, yeah, we came up with a
couple. Wagner's ring cycle and Lord of
the Rings. And that's why I don't often get
to Co host. The Ring Cycle.
They did a porn parody of that too, didn't they?
No, they didn't of. Course they didn't.
Oh, I would watch that. The ring cycle.
The Ring Cycle, the best porn parody title Parks and
Recreation, they have a porn character that does like spoof
porn films and she did a RIP off of Argo and it's called Our Goo
OK. Oh no, that does not work.
You need to come back for babies porn quiz because we we had some
good ones. Oh my God, that's a segment.
Yeah, both of. I need that.
Yeah, both of us also do it at like a drag brunch.
We'll do like a true or false? Is this a real porn parody or
not? I actually love.
That How about this one Sperminator 2 judgement lay.
I can't remember if that's real or.
Not if it isn't. I'm making it.
It just doesn't matter at this point.
This has changed. Get your clothes off.
We are making Sperminator 2. Yeah, right.
Or perhaps a little bit of a scatty 1.
I just came up with this off the spot.
Sharknado 4. Sharknado.
No, no, it's already a portmanteau.
You're right that it's a quad. It's a quad to portmanteau.
Portmanteau 2 portmanteau and I'm so creative like that.
Wow. And that is the kind of
linguistic foreplay that you can expect.
What is your history with Cruel Intentions and or Dangerous
Liaisons? Dangerous Liaisons I never
tried, always been curious. Cruel Intentions, it was
probably my favorite film as a team and rewatched it.
Maybe only somebody watched it about 6 times as a team and then
rewatched it. Maybe never all the way through
since that time until this. Was so glad to revisit it
because you just don't know what's going to hold up and my
God it holds right up. Yeah, in ways.
I mean, morals have changed. It's interesting how much morals
have changed since the 90s compared to the gap between the
1990s and the 1670s. Yeah. 1770s.
Yeah, 1770s. Yeah, yeah.
It's so true. To the point where they could
have Sarah Michelle Gellar do almost the same speech about
sort of proto feminism that Glenn Close does and Dangerous
Liaisons, and it's still hit just as hard.
Yeah. Which is basically, if men do
it, they're playing. Those were invented for the
modern adaptations. Do you know what I mean?
Like I bet she doesn't have a rant about she does feminism in
the oh she. Does 100.
Percent. Oh wow.
But I mean, you know, read between the lines and you see
it's actually about mad women, right?
But like, it is still women are obliged to be closeted and
costed and so I had to resort to cruelty and wickedness.
Relatable, right? I mean, I'm not confined to my
house, but I'd prefer to stay there.
So I just have to send messages online.
This is the modern equivalent of Glenn Close and Dangerous
Liaisons. Is it like an insult in their
basement? Just a troll, yeah.
In their mum's basement. Just say, Minga, you've seen my
posts. So yeah.
And me. What's my history?
Yeah. Cruel Intentions.
I think I kind of missed it as a teen, but definitely, you know,
caught up pretty early on. And no real history with
Dangerous Liaisons. I had seen it before, but I
watched it again this week. But yeah, they are the same
movie, it turns out. Yeah, same subject matter during
similar ways, very different contexts.
Yeah, I would say expertly transposed from, yeah, 1770s
French court to 1990s Manhattan prep school.
Yeah, preppy kids. Yeah.
So let's get into the context real quick, starting with
Dangerous Liaisons. It was made in 1988 on a budget
of 14,000,000, and it made 35 million at the box office, so a
decent, you know, modest hit. It has 91% on Rotten Tomatoes.
That's too many percent. Too many percent and it was
nominated for seven Oscars. That's too many.
Best Picture, Best Actress and Best Supporting Actress.
I'd say that's about 5 too many. It won adapted screenplay, art
direction, and costume design, Sure.
Okay, fair enough. Okay, three too many.
Yeah, starring. Oh gosh, what a list.
Glenn Close. Welcome to the podcast Glenn
Close. I believe this is our first
Glenn Close picture. I think so.
We. Should probably do Fatal
Attraction at some point. Oh, absolutely.
John Malkovich? Fine.
Michelle Pfeiffer. Enjoy your time on the podcast,
John, because you ain't coming back.
I think this is your one and only appearance.
We've got Michelle Pfeiffer, Uma Thurman, Susie Kurtz, Peter
Capaldi and Keanu Reeves. Oh, I forgot, Peter Capaldi as
the Servant. Yes, that's camp, isn't it?
Then moving on to Cruel Intentions, made in 1999 on a
budget of $10 million, it made a whopping 76,000,000 at the box
office. It's got 54% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Unreasonable. Too few percent you.
Think that's too few? Way too few percent.
Interesting. And it won such illustrious
awards as the Blockbuster Movie Award.
Favorite Supporting Actress? And the MTV Music Award Best
Kiss, Exactly, which holds up to this day because it's true.
Oh, that's spittle. Yeah, it is starring Are you
ready, Ryan Philippe, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Reese
Witherspoon and Selma Blair. Also starring Joshua Jackson,
Christine Baranski, Tara Reid and also Susie Kurtz, she's the
one through line of. Course she is good for her.
Good for her. OK, so the plot.
I'm going to do my best to skim through this plot, but just
brace yourself for a bit of an overwhelming list of names.
But for the most part, the plot is the exact same, so we can
just hopefully skim through this.
OK, so it's Valmont and Mertoy plotting against the world.
They are sexy schemers. I'm sick of sleeping with these
insipid Manhattan debutantes. Valmont is played by John
Malkovich and Ryan Philippe, and Mertoy is Glenn Close and Sarah
Michelle Gellar. Oh, I love that you're combining
the two. Yes.
They make a wager about Valmont being able to have sex with the
purest virgin in the land who is Annette or Madame Torvell,
played by Reese Witherspoon and Michelle Pfeiffer.
If Valmont wins, he gets to have anal with more toy.
I believe the anal is implied in the classic traditional period
piece. It is explicit in Cruel
Intentions. She will let him put it anywhere
and they are stepbrother and sister in the new one so.
What a great pony choice that is, because I do feel like the
original work does suffer from like, well, just be together.
If you're going to have this weird, complex psychosexual
drama that, like, you mean so much more to each other than you
ever could to all of these other inferior people, just be
together. Yeah.
But you can't because you're siblings, which is so hot.
Is that? Oh don't pretend you haven't
watched those videos. Siblings is the least of it.
Jesus. I want to fuck.
And I don't Speaking of porn parodies, OK?
Simultaneously, they also conspire to ruin the reputation
of the innocent, naive Cecile, who is played by Selma Blair
slash Uma Thurman, partially just to piss off her mother, who
is Susie Kurtz slash Christine Baranski.
Valmont rapes Cecile and then becomes her sexual tutor, which
puts him at odds with her forbidden lover Dawnsony slash
Ronald, played by Keanu Reeves and Sean Patrick Thomas.
Valmont eventually succeeds in getting Annette Slash Torvell to
fall in love with him, but he accidentally falls in love with
her at the same time. Hate when that happens.
He feels kind of bad about his betrayal of her and this whole
thing he's doing, but they have sex and then Valmont goes to
Mertoi to get his prize, but she realizes he's in love and
doesn't want to be second fiddle to some prude, so she
manipulates him into breaking it off with Annette slash Torvell,
saying he'll lose his reputation as a Playboy.
He then cruelly breaks up with Annette slash Torvell, only to
have Mertoi mock him for giving up on true love, and she still
refuses to have sex with him. But unfortunately I don't fuck
losers. War is declared between the two
and Murtoy 6 dulciny slash Ronald on Belmont, who is
accidentally killed. Valmont's journal slash letters
are then revealed after his death, showing the world how
Murtoy really is, and she is publicly shamed.
No, I think you nailed that. Okay, great.
And until you did that, I just hadn't realized how exactly the
same they are. Exactly the same.
But yeah, maybe we could start with our verses and our camp off
of the point differences. Okay, fun.
Because there are some, but they're minor.
I'd say the teen one does a surprisingly decent job for the
time of trying to give some of the women a bit more agency and
a bit more depth, and that especially comes through during
the ending, which in Dangerous Liaisons 1988 Michelle Pfeiffer,
she just dies. She just dies.
She's. Just broken hearted.
Of heartbreak. She dies of heartbreak.
Because she can't have the man that raped her.
She makes a county corpse though she is hot.
I mean she's outrageous. She makes a Kunti living person
as well. Beautiful Kunti really isn't.
That when she's all blue and they're like closing her eyes,
I'm like, wow, you look, you look stunning.
Well, we do love sexy dead women.
Meanwhile in Cruel Intentions Media, Yeah.
Meanwhile, in Cruel Intentions and that she gets revenge, she
gets she wins laugh, she wins. It ends with her driving off in
Sebastian's car, hair in the wind, looking pretty sick.
Yeah, so that's quite fun, apparently.
Reese Witherspoon said no to the role when she was offered it,
and then campaigned to basically give Annette more depth, to give
her a bit of sass, to give her more agency, just basically give
her a bit of spunk. I heard this, which is really
impressed because she was really young, early 20s.
And so to have the Hotspur to say to a director know you're
going to rewrite this character, and then to know how to do that
to create a more empowered character, it's pretty
impressive, I think. Go on, Reese Witherspoon.
I think so. And they do the same to a degree
with Sarah Michelle Gellar's character.
So the sort of pivotal moment was the end where she reneges on
their agreement. So Glenn Close reneges for a
position of weakness because she will not be second fiddle.
But ultimately she won't shag him because she's in love with
him and she sees that he doesn't love her and that he loves
Michelle Pfeiffer, and she breaks down and she can't cope
with it. Sarah Michelle Gellar says I
don't fuck losers. Unfortunately I don't fuck
losers. That's different.
Relatable. Yeah, so she kind of wins before
interesting as a an iconic photocopy based downfall.
One of two in this year because Jawbreaker comes out this year
too. What's it so?
Which one was first? Good question.
I don't think that they would. Have they would have written it
independently, weren't they? Wow.
And were those were there any photocopy based downfalls in
cinema before this? There must have been, because.
Obviously there's Mean Girls that comes afterwards, but 1999
was the year of that. Yeah, I often think of Mean
Girls as just totally ripping off Jawbreaker with that bit,
but actually, yeah, you know, it's ripping off.
It's kind of Fair play at that point.
It's just like, well, that's this is now a trope, so.
This is just how we do teen movies.
Photocopy based downfalls. Yeah, that's interesting.
You were talking about the Sarah Michelle Gellar and Glenn Close,
because I actually thought it was more interesting, the Glenn
Close situation. But you're right, she does have
less power. Which is itself, I think, a bit
more psychologically interesting because Sarah Michelle Gellar's
because especially they do give her a feminist speech, but they
just don't quite have the power behind it that you would have in
1770. Yeah.
So her kind of cruelty comes off as nihilistic.
Yes. And so still very sexy and
fabulous, but maybe just a little bit less gripping.
You don't get that. You're never going to get an
Oscar winning breakdown moment. If your character is just a
nihilist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's very well said. It is camper though.
Oh yeah, it's way camper than to just because.
She's just ice queen and it's and it's aspirational, frankly.
Life's a bitch now. So am I.
Yeah, May. She's just an ice queen with a
cocaine crucifix. Yeah.
Aspire to be. I bought a cocaine crucifix.
Turns out they're not very sturdy.
Those little spoons, they'll get bent and then it's no point to
it. Oh wow.
Don't do drugs, kids. Or at least if you're going to
get expensive for central girls. Just a normal spoon.
The other big plot point I would say is Valmont's character.
The the big difference between the two, because I would say in
Cruel Intentions, he's kind of redeemed.
Oh yeah, he wins, doesn't he? And.
In death, he has a real change of heart that we see.
He sacrifices himself to save a net.
He pushes her out of the way of the car so he gets hit and he's
really changed his mind. Was meant to see believe that
this character has undergone a transformation.
So he's more interesting, she's less.
Right. Yeah.
And then in Dangerous Liaisons, I guess there's a a bit of that,
but. He kind of falls for Michelle
Pfeiffer. Yeah, he falls for her, but
there's never, there's not quite as much of like a hero journey
situation there. He doesn't get the full
redemption. He kind of dies a schmuck.
Yeah, there's an undignified death and he has rejected
Michelle Pfeiffer. At that point, yeah.
Which is camper though. As in a choice in the as an
ending. Because it that one of the, the,
the problem I think I might have with cruel intentions is this
redemption storyline, because he is just such a piece of shit and
like, I'm not willing to like forget about his at best date
rape, a homophobic blackmail, psychological manipulation,
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Revenge porn.
Revenge porn The movie starts with him doing revenge porn on
Tara Reid. On Tara Reid, so excited about
Sharknado and I hope you stay married.
I'm using it as a way to get at her mom.
Yeah, quite cap. That's quite cap.
I mean, it's like it's a really fun opening.
It's a really fun opening. One of the things with good
intentions I the really problematic moments, they're
wittily written to you struggle. Like Susie Kurtz saying to Tara
Reid, how could you be so stupid?
Yeah, it's just immediately goes to victim blaming when she gets
revenge porn. It is quite fun when Selma Blair
has her legs in an undignified akimbo because she hasn't
learned to sit properly. And Ryan Philippe says, oh, how,
How are things down Under? Blossoming, I hope.
And Christine Baranski says close your legs.
This isn't Jamaica. I love Christine Baranski's
character because she's just playing like, yeah, a parody of
a racist, and it's really, really funny.
Like what does that even mean? Nobody's see, This is why it's
good writing because it's such a curveball.
And it just makes you like, you gasp, you, you gasp because you
also like, they've been on holidays to Jamaica or there's
something that stand. Why does Jamaica stand in for
everything that's wrong in this world for her?
And it's just like, I'm just getting a vision into this
little world of yours. Yeah, I'm wonderful.
I mean, it's, it's racist. Yeah, but it's but you're meant
to laugh at this woman for being racist, I think.
Whereas I think with the Susie Kurtz line, you're like, I'm not
sure if the movie, which side the movie thinks about this.
Like, does it think that it's Tara Reid's fault?
I think it might. I don't think the movie thinks
the racism of Christine Baranski is OK, and it's definitely
making fun of Christine Baranski.
We have come a long way in 20 or so years.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, actually, I don't think
even the audience, it would really have occurred to the
audience that like, it's problematic to say that she
really should have not let revenge porn be made about her.
Honestly. Victim blaming was not a term.
No, no. When did that get invented?
Last month, probably, yeah. So where were we?
Oh, yeah. Valmont.
Yeah. This is just this whole
redemption. I just.
That is the thing that I think stuck in my craw the most.
Watching Cruel Intentions this time I was like how dare you try
and convince me that this D bag is somehow redeemed.
Because especially when you're doing he.
Hasn't earned it. No.
And when you're doing a moralistic ending for Sarah
Michelle Gellar's character? Exactly because why is she
punished and he's not? Yeah, but you do have to have a
winner. You can't.
I mean, you don't because actually Fatal Attraction, they
they're both losers. So you could go down that route.
Do you think that would be better?
I think it would have made a less successful teen movie
because this movie is kind of trying to figure out a way to be
a romance story, which is a weird thing to try and do with
this source material, I think. It's so right.
It's a romance, isn't it? And it also gives you one more
twist. Yes.
Which it does benefit from, Yeah.
Like it really uses that photocopy demise really well.
So I love it. OK, but then how about the
actual ending scenes though? Because in Dangerous Liaisons.
Both bad. We get some bad combat in both.
Movies. OK, Yeah, yeah, the fight
scenes. Oh no.
Were there were there no combat choreographers at that time?
I like to think in Dangerous Liaisons, when they're doing
this little fencing duel, that they're meant to look like
idiots. Yeah, I get that.
I don't think they, I don't know if that's true or not, but
that's my reading of it. Like they're meant.
It's like, look how stupid these boys are.
It's playing with swords. The girls are fighting.
It is undignified, and I hope that's a generous reading.
And it's very. There might be some truth in
that because that it does also work thematically.
Yeah. Less so in Cruel Intentions.
Yeah. It's just bad.
Yeah. Because you know what they
needed to do with Cruel Intentions, which is they needed
the Rodney Dorsett Dawnsony character to pull a knife on
him. Right.
But they have obviously could not do that to the only black
character in a film that really plays with racism.
Yeah. So there's just that just was
not an option. And So what they had to have is
he is cajoled into starting this fight, which he doesn't want to
start. He's being very reasonable, but
he does throw a punch and and then Annette Reese Witherspoon
runs in to save Ryan Philippe. But then she somehow rolls into
the road a few times to get really under the wheel of a car,
and Ryan Philippe has to run and save her and then lie himself
under the car. And he gets hit by a car not
moving. Not that quickly, I don't.
I'm just gonna say I don't think that man is dead, no.
He's not. Also, she did not need to save
him because when she runs over, Rodney has just got him just
with his arms just behind his back, just like that in in 1/2
Nelson. Yeah, No one's in trouble.
They're doing a bit of WWF. It's not a problem.
Boys will be boys. Let them have fun.
It never really works. That trope of I need to push
someone out of the way of a car because the second you analyze
it and it's sometimes movies can convince you, like through
camera trickery, that is a problem.
There's somehow time for that to happen.
But this movie fails because that car is approaching for a
very long time. It's got to be going very
slowly. But also, OK, so then that fight
scene, yes, I don't know if anything gets to be called camp
there, but it's probably the sword play if if one's going to
be camp Kemper over the other. But you know, we're we're
talking small potatoes here. But how about like the Murtoy,
the ruin of her because Glenn Close finds out that Valmont is
dead and she trashes her gorgeous apt.
I mean, that is fabulous. It's fabulous and it's a great,
grotesque performance. Yep.
And then she goes to the opera, she's composed herself and
she's, you kind of get the impression, OK, she's shaking it
off like, and that's kind of you're back to icy Facade.
Yeah, which is, which is nice. And still we see the colour has
drained from her face, like she is going through the motions
now. Yeah, and then the entire Opera
House turns at her and looks at her, and she realizes everyone
knows all of her secrets. And then they start booing.
They start, they start ooing. Oh, hello.
Who chose that? I don't know, but it's great.
There's so many gorgeous costumes like it is, you know,
hundreds of extras dressed stunningly just giving her a
good ooing. It's nice.
It's undeniably calm. Yeah.
And then she just pivots. She's like, I won't let them see
me weak. I won't let them see weak.
And she just stumbles a little bit on her way out-of-the-box.
Fabulous. And then we see her back in the
mirror where we started the movie, and she's removing her
makeup, which is a trope that I will always enjoy the substance.
If it ain't broke, yeah. And she's just like rubbing
herself raw. Single tier excellent.
Exquisite Sonim, whereas crude intentions you've got
Sebastian's funeral. Sebastian's funeral.
And all of the students are there and she is.
Sarah Michelle Gellar is giving her speech as class president
and she is showing single tier again.
She is going to cope. And she knows that Sebastian
would say, I'm sorry. And he would say, and then he,
she knows that people are leaving.
And she's like, what is going on?
So she follows them outside, and she sees that it's actually
Selma. Blair is handing out these
photocopied printouts from Sebastian's journal, which are
absolutely not befitting the sophistication of the character.
Yeah, ring, but like plastic ring binder.
Say like, like we're just like a picture of her with like I'm a
bitch in like speech, Mark. And this is a guy who like open
till this point has had these, you know, Machiavellian
manoeuvres and these like clean cut tailored suits who seems
like he's like 36 even though he's about 19.
Well, no. 17. 17 of course, but he keeps the diary of a 12 year
old girl. Yeah, that's now being
photocopied and released and it includes the cross.
So then the, I think it's the head teacher is it that comes
out and shakes the Coke out of her cross and she is, she's
destroyed. And then we have a net driving
away, hair in the wind in Sebastian's old sports car.
Yeah. So which is better?
I think that the Dangerous Liaisons ending is both camper
and actually technically better. It's funner to watch.
Both are great, don't get me wrong.
I think it's a great Cruel Intentions.
It's a great ending, but I got to give it to Glenn in this one.
I don't know. I love AI, love a neat little
twist and I love a film where the the the twist or the climax
really the is the downfall is seconds before credits roll,
right. There's no real tie up.
All it is that one shot of a net driving away.
I really, really like that. There's no time.
It's just like, OK, she's one, she's ultimately one.
She's giving this speech. It's the high point and then
she's destroyed the end. I really enjoy that and like, do
you does it count as a twist if you kind of see it come in?
Because you we always know that he's had his notebook.
Yeah, I don't know. I can't put myself back into a
headspace where I didn't know what was going to happen.
So maybe the maybe you're right, Like on first, the first impact
of ever seeing Cruel Intentions. Maybe it's fun.
It's really fun. And then you'd see that it's
Selma Blair's character that is handing them out, and that's
like a real growth for her because she's been basically a
baby. True.
And now she's getting her revenge.
Again, not I'm not sure the movie earned that transformation
for Selma Blair. And also in this world of slut
shaming that we inhabit in Cruel Intentions, where it's bad
enough that Sarah Michelle Gellar has to become the Uber
bitch to survive. Sorry, Selma Blair and Reese
Witherspoon are not getting out of that journal unscathed.
They are also social pariahs now, and you have to just
pretend that like, they're not for the purposes of this movie,
but like in the real world, they're getting just as bad as
Sarah Michelle Gellar. If anything, Sarah Michelle
Gellar might get some points for being at least, you know, a.
Mean Girl. Yeah, we love Mean Girls.
Whereas, as the opening of the film makes clear, we hate a
victim. Yeah, 1999 hated A victim.
And they're kind of even more victims than Tara Reid was.
Yes. You're right there folks.
Yeah, you're right. OK.
So I'm going to give it overall ending to the 1989 with the
caveat that I actually don't find smashing up the room that
interesting because it is just so standard.
Yeah, it's Trophy. It's a beautiful room she's
smashing up. And she smashes very well.
Yeah, and this, I think there's a whole trope running through
this movie with mirrors. There is.
And so then she smashes all her mirrors, which I quite like.
Which is great because it is all about being seen, yeah.
What about just like, OK, so let's look at Glenn Close versus
Sarah Michelle Gellar that feels shouldn't ever really have to be
put against each. Other That feels unfair to Sarah
to say that because I cannot find a flaw in what she did.
No, like, it was so hot. Yeah.
I don't think there's any actor, dead or alive, that could have
played that part within the limits of that part better.
Oh wow, I don't. Like, I can think of people who
would have played it at that time, like friend of the show
Rose McGowan would have played it probably quite similar.
I don't think anyone could really have done it better.
Yeah. I think you're probably right
about that. She killed it and she was
initially cast as a net, right? Because I guess as of Buffy,
everyone just thought she was the good girl and she was like,
I don't want to be a good girl. And apparently Joss Whedon, RIP
said don't do it. It's porn.
Yeah, Sarah, Michelle, Gellar's manager, said don't do it.
Everyone's just starting to like you.
Why would you do that? Yeah.
And so she fired him. She fired him.
She. Apparently really pursued that.
Like the script ended up with her and she was like, I want to
be in this movie. That's.
Great. It is great.
I mean, we love to see someone playing against type.
It's so refreshing. And she's like just, it's so
nail on the head. But she's like, what if I was a
bad girl with brown hair? I mean, that's just like the
rules of feminism, right? And this is important because
one problem I had with Dangerous Liaisons is I will not permit
you to cast Uma Thurman and Michelle Pfeiffer in next to
each other in roles because I can't tell them apart.
What I cannot tell them apart. They are 10 years apart in age,
but they look identical and they are both blonde.
And we all know that in a period drama where everyone is white,
one has to be blonde and one has to be brunette.
The rules of feminism and those of us would not even face
blindness, but with just like a normal difficulty in
discriminating faces. Just cannot watch the film
because I'm like, who is John Malkovich in love with?
I don't know you. Have no business being on this
podcast. If you can't tell, Uma Thurman
and Michelle Pfeiffer are part I'm sorry.
I couldn't lie, to this day I cannot.
One played Poison Ivy and one played Catwoman.
The rules of feminism look, I need different hair colours and
I need different costumes, I think.
That's fair. Uma Thurman has huge tits, big
boobs. You see in this film.
Yeah, you see them? You do see them.
Would we say huge? Yes.
Are we saying huge tits? Yeah, they they were.
They made me gasp. I guess you need to roll.
Back the same. Really think about them.
Yeah. I was just thinking because I
think I just read that Uma Thurman didn't want to do tits
out nudity. Right.
So I think maybe I was moralizing as I was watching it.
So they made her do it, did they?
Yeah, and she's 18 in this movie.
It's not great. That's.
Actually gross. I read that she said that she
wouldn't do it again. Wow.
And it was so unnecessary. Yeah, totally.
Whereas crude intentions, way, way sexier film and the only
nudity is Ryan Philippe's bum. You're right, feminism, which
not only it's a man's nudity is also done tastefully.
It's funny and it really, really fits with the character because
that's his technique. And as soon as we see the bum,
we're like he's tricked her. He's sent her off to go and get
changed and he's waited until she comes down and he's not yet
put on his bathing suit. So it really, really works.
Whereas Zuma, Thurman, it's just like we're just going to need
your tits out because you're hot.
Yeah, you're so right. And it's tits out also when it's
like she doesn't have the worst. No, no.
Is that the worst? That's she's getting raped?
Yeah, yeah, she's literally being raped.
That is the worst. So not only is she is it against
her will in the movie, it's also against her will in the, like,
real world where that she's making this movie.
Yeah, awful. That's gross.
Yeah. That's not even like
problematic, but I can see what they would do, no?
There's no need for it. There's no need for it.
And the fact that it's being done by John Malkovich, who's,
you know, twice her age. Yeah.
And so I spent the whole film being like miscast because one
is shit and two, he's not. I don't think he's shit.
We'll come back to it, but we will agree on the second part.
And but then I I was like, none of these women would fall for
him. But she did.
Yeah, they had a relationship and it cost him his marriage.
Uma Thurman and. No, sorry.
Michelle Pfeiffer. Oh yeah, they had an affair on
that and it ended his his relationship with his wife.
Wow. Interesting.
So, women, what are we doing? I don't fuck losers.
Definitely he does not get any like gay man points unlike Ryan
Philippe and that. But in that shot, I mean, it
was. And he is the only man who has
ever looked sexy in rimless glasses.
Something changed with that, but yeah, something shifted in the.
Culture. Was that what to do?
I think it was too late by then, OK.
But yeah, like that was seismic. I don't think like has it been
matched in since until like he did rivalry.
I'm going to say that's like the next most memorable but I can
think of in the shower. Right.
Have we had better gay wank bang bombs in cinema?
Between cruel intentions and heated rivalry.
You don't get many men's bombs. No, you used to.
I feel like in the 90s it was like more of a thing.
I feel like. Who was it in?
There's one I can remember in Tomb Raider, who she opposite in
Tomb Raider, I can't remember. I don't remember, but he gets
out of the shower and you're like, oh, but it used to be the
thing to do if you had a good butt in Hollywood, I feel.
Or if you had a good double. That's true.
Good point. I have rewinded it to be like.
Is that a double? I think it could be Oh.
Really. I think it could be because he's
just, he's so hot, but he's not like he's not built.
And that's a Bill bum. It's a Bill bum, but the rest of
yeah, interesting. I it has never occurred to me to
think that isn't his butt and I'm going to just pretend.
Listeners, let us know. But yeah, Valmont in Dangerous
Liaisons, what I would say is you get the sense I'm.
Looking it up, whether it's his bum, carry on.
You do get a sense from that man that he has fucked and he knows
how to fuck and he's like, he's got a disgusting sexuality about
him that I I think is effective. Now, I would agree with you that
he's not hot enough to be playing this character, but
almost the fact that he's kind of not hot is, it almost gives
it something a bit more for me. This is Bum.
Okay, good. It gives it more because it's
more gross. Yeah, there is this
juxtaposition between this sort of much younger and much more
kind of like rigidly conforming to beauty stereotypes ladies
with with him who doesn't feel obliged to.
Yes, agreed. But I don't find him sexy and
charismatic. He doesn't seem to me like
someone who is so brought up in that expectation of unequal
treatment, whereas Ryan Philippe does.
He's just like, well, of course I'm going to get away with
whatever I want. He doesn't seem like that.
I think other actors who are also not regulation hotties
could have played it like maybe like Jeremy Irons.
OK, Yeah. Who could be sexy, but not
necessarily that like regulation hottie.
Maybe even Alan Rickman. Right.
Who played it in the the play that it's based on?
Yeah, I think could have pulled it off more.
Right. I see that he plays it like like
an Efsler. He seems so gay so.
Gay. Like he's at one point he hisses
at Susie Kurtz. He does.
He goes. I'm like you, Queen.
He also doesn't play it remotely period.
And now I am OK with them doing just modern American accents
because sometimes it's kind of weird when they use like an old
British RP as a stand in for French or whatever it is.
So I'm fine with that. But I did read that James
Acheson, the costume designer, hated the whole thing because he
made these exquisite costumes. And then he said the answers
were not interested in the costumes, and they did not look
it up. And he said, specifically,
Malkovich would have had a dancing master from age of 6,
but Malkovich just slouched in all of these costumes.
So he's like buttoned into these courses and they're all just
rippled and creased and whatever because he's just sitting, you
know, like this. Right.
And that's how he played it. And, I mean, I didn't buy it.
I wanted him to have a grace. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that. And that is something I would
say that Ryan Phillippe does have those.
Yeah. What I find weird about Cruel
Intentions, I think that the age thing is very strange, that all
of these people are supposed to be 17 and Cecile is 15.
Eek. Like no one is having good sex
at 17, let alone being like some kind of master seduct seductor.
Yeah. Master seducer.
Seducer. Seducer.
Yeah. Seducer and seductress, yeah.
Seduces, MO. One who seduces, Yeah, it's just
not, it's not believable, but whatever they're.
They're all. Actually 25.
So it's fun. In his review said it used to be
that teenagers went to like R rated movies to watch adults
have sex and now adults go to our rated movies towards
teenagers have sex, which is very true.
It's also, it's all very wild things, isn't it?
Again, it's like you've got people pushing 30 playing high
school like. I think we just have to accept
that that's how it is, yeah, Teenagers can't act.
Quite camp, yeah. Yeah.
And also, I don't want to see a teen in that role.
I don't. Not the Selma Blair role.
No, then we're getting very notes on a scandal.
Which is on the list. Yeah, it's, well, it's just been
covered. Oh.
Have you just done it? Yeah, have you?
Understood it. It came out today OK.
I'm going to listen to that one, yeah.
OK, what else? So are we saying performances?
We compared Glenn and Sarah. Did we actually I.
Don't think we finished the job. No, you're right.
We didn't. You didn't.
We didn't. You're just not allowed to not
give it to Glenn. Yeah, exactly.
And also, it's illegal. It's Sarah Michelle Gellar's
character might be a bit more camp, but Glenn, like she's just
giving that predatory eagle eyed, like she's about to devour
you in every scene. You know that?
What's that meme of her on the red carpet?
I can't remember who she's looking at but she's like.
Oh yeah, what is this? This is where she perfected that
look. It is.
It's a look of desire and joy, but with hidden intention.
So good. It's so good and she just spends
the whole movie doing that and it's so fabulous to watch.
She does. You're right, she's given more
to do. But even in the scenes where
she's probably given the same amount to do, she is doing more
There's. So many, I mean, they both have
bits where they like, turn away from the person they've just
been talking to and like roll their eyes or whatever.
But like, you want to watch Glenn Close to that?
Like that's what she was born, born to do.
Are there bits where she's doing too much?
No, no, OK. Good to know guy, just checking.
It's wonderful. Her monologue about like, yeah,
why she is who she is is fabulous.
I've always known I was born to dominate your sex and avenge my
own. When they have their
confrontation and she says war, Oh my God.
All right, war again. Something shifted in the
culture. I'd say do.
You know what? I think there were moments where
she was doing too much. Fine.
For example, she gets her big feminist speech and she's got a
line that is something like, well, I'll tell you exactly what
the line is. When I came out in society, I
was 15, I already knew that the role that I was condemned to,
namely to keep quiet and do what I was told, gave me the perfect
opportunity to listen and learn not to what people told me,
which naturally was of no interest, but to what it was
they were trying to hide. And the way she plays it is, it
gave me the perfect opportunity to listen and learn not to what
people told me, which naturally was of no interest, but rather
to what they were trying to hide.
I felt she cringed a bit when she did that.
OK, yeah, actually I'm not sure if I cringed, but yeah, it
didn't work. Yeah, I thought that.
And there weren't moments like that.
Whereas Sarah Michella, Sarah Michella she she risked less,
but she, she felt less. It was, you know, everything she
tried to do, she hit. So I don't know.
Swings and roundabouts. Well, which witch's camper to go
hard and fail? All right, fuck you, Sarah.
Do more. She does grind on him as someone
said Sunnyside up. So nice Which?
Is so fabulous. Yeah, she's really going to
town. Work that back.
It's really nice. Yeah, OK.
So should we do John and Ryan? Oh, we've already done John and.
Ryan yeah, we're yeah, that's enough time for the men.
Yeah. Selma Blair and and Uma.
Yeah. I hated Selma Blair on this
rewatch. Did.
You. Not stand it.
Because she's playing a baby. Because she's playing a baby and
it's just so annoying. And I know it's meant to be kind
of funny and sometimes I guess it is kind of funny, but for the
most part, I was like, this is just so irritating.
It's like watching someone do baby improv.
You know you're a baby. I'm so glad I've never had to
experience one. Do baby improv.
Do you know what You're right, she's doing.
She's doing a lot of only one thing, which is play about 6
years old, which is kind of a weird choice.
Yeah, which which kind of makes it all weirder, but also in a
way less weird because at least she can be petulant, which is
not quite agency, but it's something.
True. Whereas Uma has nothing.
She's got nothing. It is a nothing role.
It's a nothing role and she does nothing with it.
She does nothing with it, it's true.
And that poor character. I think she ends up back in a
convent. She gets really fucking trashed
in this movie. Like for no real reason.
But that is what happens in the book.
To be fair, Dangerous Liaisons is like a pretty faithful return
of the book, right? So the darkest scenes in both
are if you're being kind, the seduction, if you're being
unkind, the rape of Cecile. And they try and soften it in
Cruel Intentions by having her having Summer Blair's character
get really into it. It's so weird that the
difference in telling is not actually about the difference
between 1760 and 1999. It's the difference between 1989
and 1999. It's crazy.
And then again, looking at it from this perspective, 20 years
after that, it's like, wow, she's changed.
Yeah. Right, kind of can't be bothered
to talk about Annette slash Torvell because it's it's also a
bit of a nothing character unless there's anything you
specifically want to say. No, but casting wise, quite fun
that they wanted Katie Holmes, the good intentions.
But Ryan Philippe was like, could you possibly have my
girlfriend instead? And so they got Reese
Witherspoon in and then she said no.
And Cumble, what's his first name?
Roger. Roger Kumble.
He was his first film. And he planned to make the whole
thing on like a £1 million budget.
She said no, and he apparently in like, took her for a drink or
whatever and got on his knees and begged her to do it.
Oh, wow. And she was like, well, OK, I'll
rewrite it. Yeah, I'm glad it got a bit of
love and attention, that character, because Michelle
Pfeiffer's character is just hard to watch.
She got a BAFTA. Wow.
She got BAFTA for best supporting actress.
I'm not saying she's necessarily bad in the movie, I'm saying the
character is just criminally underwritten.
I'm. Just not sure it's a part that
you can have a BAFTA. Full I kind of agree.
Just, you know, No, no, no, no, I'm just, I'm just a delicate
damsel. Not here.
Yeah, in 1989 you get a BAFTA. But that damsel stuff work is
puerile and under dramatized. How about the gay stuff?
So we've got the lesbian kiss. Which is phenomenal high point
of the movie. I think it holds up.
That bit of spittle, iconic at the time.
You've got Sarah Michelle Gellar in her all black Audrey Hepburn
bug eyed specs and little slinky number Selma Blair in her preppy
Manhattan jumper type vibe in a sort of light blue.
They're opposites where they come to get on the chemistry.
Gorgeous. Yeah, it's great.
I wish there had been more tones of lesbianism to Sarah
Michelle's characters, Sarah Michelle characters, Gellar,
because it is a bit like, why is this happening?
But you know, it was. I know why it happened in the
movie because it needed, it was titillating for male audiences.
And it's just about pushing the envelope and it's like trying to
see what they can get away with. It'd be cool if you're like,
maybe she's like, maybe her repressed lesbianism is the
reason she's like this. It'll be fun to just add in a
suggestion, wouldn't it? Or just like make her more
explicitly by in some other regard in the movie, but because
it just kind of comes out of nowhere.
Yeah, it does. I also think that the really
intense homophobia is, I mean, actually really just quite oak
standard for 1999, I think, but maybe not quite in keeping with
the level of sophistication, which we've already said is
really artificial for those characters.
But they're just so worldly and sophisticated that like the fact
that he has a journal and she says, could you be more queer
like, well, I think you she probably wouldn't think that.
Do you think the movie is homophobic or is it painting the
characters to be homophobic and therefore problematic because in
this? No, the movie's gay.
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
Ryan's character is kind of cool with gay people, but he's like,
he uses that as another, like, lever towards his own advantage.
But he's got a gay friend and he doesn't.
He's not at all judgmental about him being gay.
He just knows that like they can use it to manipulate the closet
case. You're right.
He's not. Sarah, a little bit more judgy
about the gays. Yeah.
Ryan bit more down with things, which is not how you would
expect things to go gender wise. Yeah.
So, yeah. But I would have Roger Cumble
because he wrote it as well. Is he?
Is he a gay? I don't think he's gay.
Because it gives Big gay. Yeah, you're right, it does.
I've watched some like behind the scenes interviews and stuff.
He's not giving gay. OK, so we find out.
Interesting. I think it kind of matters
actually. Apparently, he was originally
planning to just make it as a little B movie for like less
than a million. And then it just sort of picked
up some interest when a producer, the producer of I Know
What You Did Last Summer, who had just worked with Sarah
Michelle Gellar and Ryan Philippe, sort of introduced
them. And suddenly it was like, OK,
this is going to be a way bigger thing, but still not big budget
10 million. Yeah, no small.
And a million of that went on. Bittersweet Symphony isn't that
crazy? Yeah, he's not gay, by the way.
He's not gay. Not gay.
Oh, you mean the Gays Not the Gays soundtrack?
Oh, just unspeakably cruel intentions when stunning from
the like the original compositions that just does that
really joyful, silly tension, plunky, plunky stuff.
And then the big hitting numbers, the like.
I would never have thought that you should pay £1,000,000 for
Bittersweet Symphony, but it's the perfect song.
Yeah, I guess it was probably already a hit.
But like that, they also owe so much to this movie.
It's just like it was a hit. Then but it wouldn't have
survived till now, no. They've cashed out on that, got
a million for it as well. Yeah, I mean, Placebo, Skunk and
Nancy. It's just like a high point of
sexy 90s. That super melodramatic Counting
Crows song. Colour blind Oh.
Oh for the the emotional crooks where they're separated.
Oh. I was giggling.
It was just such teen melodrama. That's.
Not it's like it's like watching just a really elevated version
of one of those teen dramas like The OC.
It's so the OC. It's very also post Scream with
the like the overwrought dialogue.
Dawson's Creek like teens. They don't sound like that and
aren't 25 but. That, but good jokes, yeah.
Really good jokes throughout. Yeah.
Doctor King is my favorite. Christine Baranski saying I took
you in off the streets and he's like, I live at Easton 49.
Yeah, you can put it anywhere. It's just, it's so quotable.
It's a film, it really is Factors.
Maybe it's time to just say it. But yeah, Dangerous Liaisons,
I'm sorry, but I got bored. It was boring.
I got bored and and I there's no real excuse for that when you've
got a lot of really fab women being bad.
And the writing wasn't beautiful.
Like, of course the Rising is not going to be quippy and short
and snappy and witty and quite in the same Cruel Intentions
way, but it can be droll and witty and erudite and, you know,
funny and amusing and beautiful imagery in the way that I think
I've read some of the book. And to be fair, the book, it
kind of isn't, right. It's not that beautiful.
You would have to get to write that.
But, you know, we need some sort of Jane Austen witty repartee.
Yeah. We don't really have it.
And yet boring, like getting bored is just such a cardinal
sin. And I I I.
It's the opposite of camp. Yeah, I and I think for all of
Cruel Intentions, kind of I'd say the the stuff that doesn't
hold up, that's a bit problematic.
You're not bored watching it. You are not.
Bored. It goes down easy.
Yeah, for a movie that's about sex and sex games.
Dangerous Liaisons. It's not sexy enough.
It's. Not sexy.
It's not sexy and you can't even blame the corsets because those
come off unnecessarily. You don't need boobs to come out
for it to be sexy. You can have so much sexiness in
corsets. Yeah, cruel attention is just
it's much hornier and it's sexier.
It's so sexy. You know, she gives him blue
balls, which is very, very sexy. It's yeah, yeah.
It's, it's disappointing interesting little titbits about
the production of Dangerous Liaisons.
They they kind of like it all moved so quickly and other
people were ousted because Jane Fonda was trying to buy the
rights and she would have played Glenn Close, bought Glenn Close
was due to replace Lindsay Duncan in the play version of
it. But then the play closed.
But because she already then had an in with Christopher Hampton,
who wrote the play and was then to write the the film, she was
kind of a shoo in. So Jane Fonda for all of her
money that she was putting into it, was asked to it.
How do you think Jane Fonda would have been great?
It would have been such a different movie, it's hard to
picture her as an icy bitch. She'd have done sexy so well.
Sure. Would she have done icy?
I bet she could have done icy. I'd love to see it.
Yeah, I'd love to see it, yeah. It's one of those roles you kind
of look like. I'd like to see anyone do that.
It's like how I feel about Catwoman.
Yeah, it's. Just a great.
Role yeah, let them let anyone have a go out like let let 1000
flowers bloom. Yeah, yeah, I want every major
actress to have a go at this particular role.
At least I I don't want to watch this movie again, so have a go
at maybe the main speech. Yeah, or two and then or.
Let's have another remake. It's time.
It can be in space. I'm in costume.
Compare the 2. Yeah, it's apples and oranges,
and they're both, they're, they're fat, they're both
fabulous. They're kind of incomparable.
The it's just, what do you want to look at?
But if you're a costume geek, I mean, you can't beat Dangerous
Liaisons. It won the Oscar for it, totally
justifiably. I'm going to just say it.
It's beautiful gowns. Great gowns, beautiful gowns.
The jewellery as well, like the hair, the everything, it's
exquisite. And that opening scene, which is
arguably the best scene in it, where it's just them being
gotten up in their toilet, Glenn Close looking in the mirror, and
she looks in the mirror with such a pride that I think I've
only ever seen once before. And it was at Wilderness
Festival when you were doing your face and you did an
admittedly exquisite face in like 30 minutes or something.
And then as you'd completed it, you just said I'm really good at
drag. And I haven't seen that since
until I watched Glenn Close in that mirror.
Somebody lied to her several times.
I've I've got a habit of doing and saying that.
There's that common thing, and that's really fun.
You're not the first person. Who's That's really fun, but.
There's just something that takes over and like, you know
what? You're going to spend a bunch of
time making yourself look a certain way.
You might as well enjoy the result.
When those lashes go on, you feel things.
You do. And told her that she was fly
hot and sexy. You feel like Glenn Close and
you're about to swoop down and snatch up a little baby bird.
And what is it? When a woman strikes another
woman? She rarely misses, and it's
invariably fatal. Yeah, that opening scene is it's
just gorgeous. And the every single gown in
that movie looks like it took weeks and there's I kept looking
at the earrings. It's like God, beautiful
jewelry. I read a sort of a costume EA do
like a critique of it and yeah, everything was like really on
point historically, except that they'd chosen to go 1760s
instead of 1780s and 90s when the book was actually released
and set because 1780s and 90s was the sort of big encroyable
look of like Marie and Antoinette.
They all have had like big sort of ships in their hair.
OK. And like.
It's way too much. Yeah, it would have been hard to
have the close-ups right of her in a.
It. Would have been a different
vibe. Right, like when the pennies got
so big that no one could get through a door.
Exactly. We need to see faces, yeah.
Fair. And then Cruel Intentions.
Yeah, it's just nailing late 90s cool, isn't it?
Yeah, it looks great. Yeah, just like Upper East Side
of expensive fitted dark, a lot of Prada with some, you know,
preppy jumpers and what have you.
But the main 2 are mostly like Sarah Michelle Gellar in that
bustier and then the fitted Prada suit.
It's hot. It's great and she's also got a
really gorgeous like blue metallic miniskirt at one point
with like a sheer top. That's so 90, it's so good.
Metallic miniskirt so 90s so great.
Can't be beat. Nice dress.
Thanks, it's a Versace. My like overall thoughts which I
had written down was that and I'm not sure I even I'm not sure
I agree with this anymore now that we've talked about it a bit
more, but that Dangerous Liaisons is a better movie but
Cruel Intentions is a funner movie.
Nope. No evident.
Yeah, Dangerous Liaisons is boring.
Maybe I'm just being contrary because it got 7 Oscar
nominations and it's seen definitively as just a great
movie. Do you think, though, if you
were just like a normal adult who did not see Cruel Intentions
as a teen, yeah, you would watch it.
And I think that's a good movie. I would say I don't have access
to that because I loved it and it was a sexual awakening.
I think you'd have to be like this is stupid because it is.
Stupid. The thing is, my memory is so
bad that every experience I have I come out entirely fresh.
So I watched this movie having not watched it for a while,
being like Oh my God I cannot believe how good this is.
And maybe there is the joy of it unlocking memories.
Obviously I get that, but I don't.
No, I think it's good. I think it's a good script.
What about all that fucking melodrama like his redemption
storyline, him walking around the streets to fucking Counting
Crows like beating his chest. It's dumb.
OK, it's dumb. It's.
Dumb. But then also, maybe I love a
bit of melodrama. I really enjoy it when she comes
up the escalator from the subway and he's at the top and it's
like, how did he got the train walk faster than the train?
But I enjoy it. I'd like a bit of melodrama to
an exquisite soundtrack. What can I say?
I'm not saying it's bad, I think it's a great example of of a
teen movie, but like I think some of it is very teen movie.
Right. OK.
Are you suggesting that I have to accept that some of my tastes
may be a little bit low? Brown, you're not young.
Should we do Lizers and Merrills?
Let's do it. OK, so Merrills, what are you
going to give to dangerous? I think I'm going to give it
six, yeah, maybe 7. Yeah, I am.
No, I, I deserve to have fun. No one's fun anymore.
I'm giving it 5. Whatever happened to fun?
OK, what about cruel intentions for Merrill's?
People in the present are just better than people in the past.
And the present is 1999. We are.
That's where we are now. So Merrill's I can't hate.
What's going on? This is the last time you'll see
me. I'm giving it 5.
Wow. OK.
All right. You went low because I went
high. No, no, I was going to give it a
5. It's like, it's like wild
things. Right, but it's the sexiest teen
movie. I don't know, Wild Things is
pretty sexy. OK this is what I have to just
add me. I haven't seen Wild.
Things, but it's I'll. Put it on my list.
It's trash but like entertaining.
It is trash but unfortunately I don't fuck losers.
OK, let's talk about Liza's. So how camp are these movies
starting with Dangerous Liaisons?
It's got some camp highlights. Yes, I think actually Michelle
Pfeiffer dying at the end is quite camp.
And I love the ending of like Glenn smashing up the and the
mirror and the and the her her ruin is super camp to me.
But I'd say overall, it's not the campus movie and I'm going
to give it a four. Yeah, I was thinking 4 as well.
That's so upsetting. Yeah, OK.
We're agreed. OK, cruel intentions.
A little bit camper. Much camper, it's not my campus.
No, because it doesn't have any unintentional camp.
It's not big crazy swings. It's not weird.
Yeah, there is some queer joy also quite a lot of straight
joy. Like it's, it's doing what it's
trying to do and it's doing it in a mainstream way.
But it is. It's genuinely funny, genuinely
sexy. Yeah, it's not it's there's no
underdog flop, is there? We're not reclaiming something
here. So I don't think I I want to,
but I don't think I can go more than six.
Right. I think I'm going to go 6.
I agree. Yeah, I agree.
OK, good. So I've I've gone rogue on the
Merrills, but at least we've found common ground.
Taste is subjective, but camp isn't.
OK, yeah, I like that. Camp is absolute and we are the
arbiters. Right here.
But that does mean that congratulations, Cruel
Intentions. You are camper.
You've you've won this round. Jesus loves winners and also in
terms of legacy, it's sort of has it had like multiple spin
offs. You don't mean no one's seen
them. Why would you?
But it's had a cruel intentions too.
It's had he's had ATV show that got aborted and.
Then another one. Now he's had one that didn't get
aborted that apparently is terrible.
I think it got cancelled after one season.
OK. Have you seen any of it?
No. OK, I should watch a little bit.
I'm curious. I've heard it's awful.
Yeah, which? Sounds like no redeeming
features, right? He's had a stage musical.
I think that's it. Yeah, that's a lot.
That's a lot. I mean, arguably it's all Delay
Liaison Dangerous's legacy. They were all from in that
lineage, but I think Cruel Intentions is the one that like
planted its flag and everything else since it's been a reference
to that media. Although I don't know whether
you can quite make such a bold claim to about a film that's
survived A miraculous 25 years when the dangerous but Liaison
Dangerous has survived like, what, 250?
It's doing all right. It's doing pretty good.
All right, Well done. Something Lacrosse, whatever
your name is, Mr. Lacrosse. Thanks for being here, Sue.
Thank you so much for having me in this grand gorgeous studio.
What luxury? Yeah, we're off now to film our
porn parody of Cruel Intentions. Here we go.
We got this.
Drool. Penetrations.
OK, we've got it. We've got it, Yeah.
Bye. Get away from her.
You. Bitch.
Classic. He was in the Amazon in final
when she was researching spiders right before she died, no?
Hannah thought you've got a prostitute or don't get it.