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Hello and welcome to the amount 
of pixels podcast for back on. 

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Season 3, episode 3, disco 
Elysium. 

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This one's been in the grinder 
for a long time. 

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Will this died several times to 
bring it to you? 

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I am the host this week Nate and
with me we have Craig ready and 

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we'll it Sammy. 
It's a me really. 

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Oh, in lieu of an opening 
question this week, I have two 

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white checks for each of you to 
pass. 

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I have a D6 here, and I have two
thought cabinet thoughts. 

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One for each of you Who would 
like to go first will says he 

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would like to go first. 
Now we'll I've got a 

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savoir-faire check here for you 
called dances from mask to the 

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eggs. 
You have a pretty high chance on

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this. 
You got a 42%, I've got a D6 

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here, you cool. 
If I roll it for you. 

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Yeah, let's go. 
I wrote it on a soft mat but oh,

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you passed. 
You passed confidently. 

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Here's the text that I see. 
What are you roll? 

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It was it D6? 
I guess the game doesn't really 

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tell you what it's rolling. 
Does it? 

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And that's true. 
Yeah. 

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To d6s. 
And you can critical fail or 

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critical path. 
So there's a 3% chance or 97% 

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chance are your limits? 
Well crap. 

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I should have had contingencies 
for that. 

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Would have been fun. 
The text I have here says, 

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within you, there exists are 
horrendous vacuum. 

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An area devoid of purpose, a 
doomed passion area of sorts. 

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There's a serious need in there 
man. 

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What you going to do about it? 
Better start planning and 

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studying a glass. 
A Gore to might help sounds like

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my experience at this colesium 
perfectly. 

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Well this is working this has a 
45-minute thought. 

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Cabot internalization time you 
get a A plus 2 bonus to disco 

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Elysium thinking Now standing 
now. 

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Craig, it's your turn. 
You have a pretty good chance on

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this one. 
You've got a 21 percent gray. 

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Oh, thanks funny. 
Like I hope this works out for 

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you. 
Glad you're setting me. 

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Help success here. 
You passed. 

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But barely. 
All right. 

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Craig's is a physical instrument
check. 

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It's called the Great 
Reformation. 

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Yeah, he text here, says 
towering, over your young life 

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looms, a history of fear and 
uncertainty your life. 

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May not last long. 
You might want to think about 

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this, but don't think too much 
about it. 

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People will think you're 
dramatic and it's the kind of 

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thing that can consume you from 
the inside out. 

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Anyway, what you'll really need 
is some kind of improbable High 

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School to add a state college 
level transformation. 

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Maybe try some substances, and 
this also has a +2 critical 

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thinking about disco Elysium 
effect. 

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While it internalizes that's 
going to take an hour. 

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I feel like stay tuned for the 
back half of this podcast when 

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it gets good, right. 
I feel like electrochemistry 

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could have been a little more 
fitting there. 

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That is true. 
I don't know how seriously to 

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take the suggestions that the 
thought cabinet. 

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That's half. 
Yeah, that is also we will get 

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to that all shortly because 
we're here to talk about disco 

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Elysium which is a Estonian but 
I guess pan-european written 

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mainly in London, I guess. 
Computer role-playing game. 

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Released in 2019 and updated in 
2021 with console ports and 

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voice acting. 
It is a wordy game that has 

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basically, it's big twist, is 
that it's a crpg like those of 

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the 90s except instead of 
characters you have different 

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voices in your head that 
represent different aspects of 

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your identity. 
If you do plot summary first or 

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the kind of who made this thing,
what do you think? 

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Wow. 
Craig didn't even move his eyes 

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and the yeah, let's go straight 
in a plot summary since I met 

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dr. 
Experienced in working with 

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comatose, patients. 
Yes, I Splat summer, I wrote 

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this one down, you're a 
mysterious no name. 

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With total Amnesia, I'll add the
classic RPG Trope, who wakes up 

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in a hotel discovering, you 
drink yourself. 

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Into a total stupor, you're here
from your Precinct, to solve an 

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apparent murder mystery. 
That is left. 

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Someone hanged in the courtyard 
outside the hotel of mercenary. 

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Initially it looks like the 
Workers Union was at fault who 

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are adversarial and defensive in
your attempts to investigate 

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through several days of 
Investigation. 

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It becomes apparent that the 
mercenary was actually killed by

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a far distant. 
Hermit practicing, communist. 

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Ideology desperately in love 
with a fellow Hotel. 

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Guests from afar jealous of the 
sexual Affair. 

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The mercenary was having with 
this guest. 

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The murder was reframed as a 
hanging to defend the hotel 

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guests who they felt would 
otherwise be accused. 

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But before this is fully 
revealed, there's a climactic 

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action scene where the murdered 
mercenaries comrades were Turn 

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in stage of public execution of 
the union leaders claiming 

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responsibility and in some 
cases, shoot the player and the 

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greatest NPC of all time, Kim 
katsuragi your partner. 

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The game ends with you meeting 
the aforementioned communist, 

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the deserter who surrenders to 
you the last of his kind 43 

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years since the failure of 
Revolution who collapses in 

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Death At The Disappearance of 
the Cryptid, dubbed, the insulin

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d and phasmid a supernatural 
being that has watched the 

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Region's history. 
For some 350 years, and has 

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observed and played some hand in
the various failed and 

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successful revolutions. 
Get all that. 

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Well, Can I think I got up to 
the first sentence? 

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They're fine. 
I think most of that was beyond.

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What will a scene? 
So I apologize for the spoilers 

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basically. 
Yeah you're a detective. 

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Try to figure out a murder 
mystery and some crazy political

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Rebel killed him under the 
influence of a crazy like bug 

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business. 
Is this, your experience or is 

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this everybody's experience? 
This is the experience that is 

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the experience. 
Perience. 

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Yeah, you will make it through 
this experience by the end of If

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you finish this game and roll 
credits at I guess the ending. 

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Although there is earlier 
endings, if you die earlier or 

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go elsewhere, but this is this 
is the game. 

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I will say that the bit about 
the supernatural bug being 

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controlling. 
The Assassin is sort of subtext,

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but it's also kind of text. so, 
that might be like, You can miss

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meeting the phasmid altogether 
but even if you miss seeing it, 

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which is pretty rare, you don't 
get to talk to it, but you still

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see it and then it disappears. 
And when it disappears, the 

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Assassin starts, convulsing and 
dies. 

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So it's subtext that. 
Like the thing was controlling 

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it at that point, but it's, you 
know, chekhov's gun sort of 

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situation I guess. 
We will get it all into that 

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more after we talked about, who 
the heck made this game. 

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So, this game was written, and 
lead by Robert curve. 

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It's kind of, its kind of an Art
Collective Zoom, which of course

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we would be remiss to not 
mention the fact that ziane do 

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more apparently fucking 
theoretical syllables of Russian

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proposed by radical poets in the
1960s. 

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So even the developer name is 
like chalk. 

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Deep and revolutionary like 
history. 

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Curve. 
It's is kind of credited as the 

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lead. 
He wrote a book called The 

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Sacred and terrible are that's 
still only available in 

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Estonian. 
That's kind of a big book of 

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advanced in Elysium which is 
kind of a ten-year project for 

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his role playing game that he 
runs with his friends but as I 

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guess not going to learn 
Estonian so you can read it at 

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this rate. 
That's what you're going to have

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to do. 
Is I'd like, why isn't it, when 

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translating this I imagine the 
impostor syndrome must be very 

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strong. 
I don't think anyone probably 

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expected this game to get the 
reception that it did. 

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As I mentioned, Zoom is like a 
collective, right? 

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So there's also Alexander rostov
who's the art director, that 

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kind of brings that up, 
impressionist painterly style 

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and Helen hand Pierre, who is 
another writer. 

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And then of course, there's a 
huge Studio. 

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I think there's something like 
20 riders in this game. 

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A million Words which is 
something something we're going 

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to talk kind of more about words
and since we're recording this 

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in 2022, which I guess would be 
catastrophically late. 

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We can say that we're being 
timely because there's been some

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leaked legal documents about 
zooms Cultural Association being

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dissolved recently and someone I
forget how that news made it 

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out. 
But when people were talking 

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about oh what is the dissolution
of the Cultural Association 

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which is a, like a group within 
the company. 

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What does that mean for the 
studio? 

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It also came out that curve it's
and I believe rostov and, and PR

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had been forced to Leah ejected 
from the company at the end. 

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End of last year, which is a 
little concerning because there 

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were plans for a disco Elysium 
too. 

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If you look at steam, it's been 
actually not review bombed. 

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But tons of people are talking 
about this is this is being 

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perceived by the internet as 
kind of a cash. 

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Grab by Zoom to try to keep the 
rights and they're a lot of this

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made it to the west by there's 
papers that have been filed in 

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Estonian Court of curve at suing
Za whom to try to get the 

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property back. 
So there's kind of a lot going 

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on right now. 
We don't know all about that 

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stuff, but yeah, I think that 
The kind of the important thing 

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I think in our discussion here 
today is that the team is 

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definitely Estonian are from 
Eastern Europe, a country in the

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Soviet Bloc, that was in the 
USSR in all of the developers 

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lives times. 
Well, I don't know about all but

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most definitely the author. 
And I think that that's pretty 

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relevant to kind of the 
Viewpoint that this is 

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espousing. 
Oh yes, there is also when the 

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game came out, there was a huge 
list of developer Inspirations 

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mmm that they released alongside
it. 

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There's tons of stuff Invisible 
Cities by Italo Calvino, which 

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I've read, which is like a 
surreal. 

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I guess we don't need to go into
book report mode now. 

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But as also is like, if you've 
read that, do you understand 

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where the inspiration like that?
That is, is there a direct line 

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of sight between the two? 
Kind of Invisible Cities is like

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surreal accounts of cities that 
it's Marco. 

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Polo coming back to the Kublai 
Khan and Reporting on the city's

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he's been to. 
Yeah. 

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And they're all like surreal 
visions of like cities that are.

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It's basically like early magic 
realism I think. 

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Okay. 
So yes in that it's like very 

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flourishing and describe cities 
but like it's not like you're 

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going to get exactly a disco 
Elysium by reading it. 

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City in the City by China 
mieville. 

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I don't I keep hearing about 
him. 

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He wrote like a fictional 
account of the Russian 

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Revolution. 
I've been meaning to read him, 

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but I just like every time I get
to it on my reading list, I bump

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something above it. 
Oh, and the soundtrack is score 

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by British Sea power. 
Now just known as sea power 

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00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:41,800
because After brexit and stuff, 
it's just that they're just not 

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undersea Powers kind of a 
different flavor. 

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00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:49,800
Okay, interesting. 
And what is Red Rock, Riviera. 

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It was one of the songs that 
they that's by I guess. 

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Now. 
See Power is that see that blah,

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blah blah. 
Yeah, I think so. 

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Okay, great. 
Soundtrack on bandcamp. 

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00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:04,300
I have it. 
It's pretty good. 

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And yeah, I think that's all our
metadata about what this game is

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there. 
Anything else you guys would 

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like to throw in at the 
beginning? 

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00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,800
Well, thanks. 
I mean it's interesting and 

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we'll get into this, right? 
But that what you explained, 

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Sounds complicated and 
convoluted and difficult to 

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grasp. 
Yet when you start the thing, 

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it's like, hey, you're just a 
detective that is fucking 

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hungover and you're here to 
solve a murder. 

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That's it. 
More or less, right? 

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00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:43,100
Like. 
Yeah, here to solve why this guy

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died, but don't you feel like 
this game like immediate? 

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I guess we're hot of the 
discussion already, but this 

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game immediately makes you sort 
of like start drowning in its 

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00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:55,300
words. 
I go absolutely even before 

229
00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:57,500
you're like miles, deep and 
political knots. 

230
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,100
Yeah. 
It's just, it's interesting, 

231
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:04,000
just to see where it gets into 
versus where you start within 

232
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,500
the first 10 seconds, where 
someone would like pitch it to 

233
00:13:06,508 --> 00:13:08,200
you in a bit. 
So it's like a detective game 

234
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,300
where like you're trying to 
solve a murder and then there's 

235
00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:12,500
all of everything else that will
get into. 

236
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,400
Yeah, I started this episode 
with a plot spoiler because I 

237
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,400
don't think we'll spend a lot of
time. 

238
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,800
Actually kind of talking about 
what happens so much as what all

239
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,500
of that represents. 
I think if this were a normal 

240
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,100
podcast, where we kind of talked
about the game on its level at 

241
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:28,500
you're right, it would have made
way more sense. 

242
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,400
Just kind of start with, it's a 
murder mystery. 

243
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,500
What all did you guys find out? 
Let's play in podcasts ever 

244
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:38,800
recover that too tough. 
Yeah, I'd also be curious will. 

245
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,300
I should I didn't want to put 
you on the spot but I almost 

246
00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:44,700
thought of having you summarize 
this game incomplete like me, 

247
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:48,100
but before I gave my 
description, what is disco 

248
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:51,200
Elysium? 
Oh man, this Games been tough. 

249
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:54,900
So we've kind of talked about 
it. 

250
00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:58,200
I restarted this game like four 
or five times. 

251
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:05,400
Now I think the key to me making
the most progress has been one 

252
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,200
of your last pieces of advice. 
We're at one point. 

253
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,900
I was telling you, I just can't 
comprehend anything that's going

254
00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:16,200
on here and you were like, well,
hey, there's a skill 

255
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:19,500
encyclopedia, which will just 
jump in and tell. 

256
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,400
Tell you what the hell things 
mean, and what's going on. 

257
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:26,200
And so for my final restart, 
that was almost completely maxed

258
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,900
out and it's like Wikipedia and 
getting that context for 

259
00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:33,000
everything that was going on and
understand even when theme 

260
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,500
things seem like they should be 
obvious from Context to be like,

261
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,900
oh, here's a name of a city and 
be like, oh, this is a city, and

262
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:43,700
this is, you know how it relates
to the area and the law. 

263
00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:51,500
It almost became approachable 
for my Don't run where I was 

264
00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:53,400
getting all of this additional 
information. 

265
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:57,600
I was kind of comparing this to 
their. 

266
00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:00,800
There was a great. 
I think it's an extra credits 

267
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,400
episode where they're talking 
about a good intro versus bad in

268
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,700
front row. 
And they're comparing like a 

269
00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:10,700
modern warfare which kind of 
gets you into the action and 

270
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:15,900
shows you what's going on versus
the Skyrim intro, where you're 

271
00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:19,400
sitting in the back of a wagon 
and you just have to pee. 

272
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,600
People talking to each other and
they just give you term after 

273
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:28,100
term after term and political 
people and the names of people 

274
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:30,700
and the names of houses and 
you're just. 

275
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:34,100
And it's like, I don't have any 
context to know who any of these

276
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,100
people are. 
What how they relate to each 

277
00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:38,400
other? 
How many of these are important?

278
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:39,700
I'm not going to be a real, 
remember them? 

279
00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:41,300
Because you just throwing words 
at me. 

280
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,600
And that's what this game felt 
like quite a long time for me. 

281
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:54,200
So camera, what your initial 
question was, but it has been a 

282
00:15:54,208 --> 00:15:59,300
lot of like, really struggling 
to figure out what's going on. 

283
00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:01,800
What the context is. 
I think, when I started talking 

284
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:08,400
to the rich lady, and she was 
starting to give me both context

285
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,000
on like, what is reality, where 
am I? 

286
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,800
What's going on? 
But then she started hinting at 

287
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:20,700
the, the, this mysterious 
Interspace between the worlds. 

288
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:23,900
And then she like, straight up 
tells you were not on a sphere. 

289
00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:26,800
This is not a planet. 
We're not always said, I was 

290
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,800
like, whoa, what the heck is 
going on here? 

291
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,900
And so, I could, as I was 
starting to see that I was 

292
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:37,300
starting to get that wonder 
wonder feeling and like 

293
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:39,700
thinking, oh man, where could 
they be going? 

294
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,600
And yeah, I can see them getting
to supernatural aliens at some 

295
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,800
point because we're talking 
about these isolated. 

296
00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:52,900
Dated World Islands in between 
some, we had a mysterious 

297
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:55,800
multi-tenant multi-dimensional 
things. 

298
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,100
So yeah, it seems to me Lance, 
pop out of there. 

299
00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,700
Seems like we could have gotten 
there. 

300
00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:02,200
Probably would be fun getting 
there. 

301
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,099
Did you ever talk to the lady in
the wheelchair? 

302
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:11,300
In the whirling and Rags the 
question times, the curb Hunter,

303
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:15,599
Yeah, her husband. 
She lost her husband and then I 

304
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,099
told her husband was across the 
gate that I couldn't go across, 

305
00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:23,500
and then she was okay. 
And then I just gotta cross that

306
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:28,700
gate on Wednesday morning. 
That's where I am currently. 

307
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:32,400
He had a childhood experience at
five with a Cryptid and she 

308
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,800
talks to you about that. 
I think pretty early on and that

309
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,900
Cryptid is the thing you meet at
the end of the game. 

310
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,700
But yeah, so it's not quite 
alien but it's interesting how 

311
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:44,200
as Much as it sounds like 
there's a gradual path to get 

312
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,000
there. 
This pretty much immediately 

313
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,900
like disclosed you at the 
beginning of the game, too. 

314
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:50,300
Which is interesting. 
Everybody talks about it. 

315
00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:53,000
Like, it's like, it's a Yeti. 
Yeah. 

316
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,100
Like, you know, completely 
fictional. 

317
00:17:56,300 --> 00:18:00,900
It's it's presented as like oh 
yeah, these are all crazy guys. 

318
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:03,600
That are just yet out there like
a Hyundai and it's like oh 

319
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,600
they're just wasting their time 
because there's nothing better 

320
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,300
to do in life type scenario. 
So for it to actually show up 

321
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,500
does present some sort of 
surprise. 

322
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,000
But I do think one other thing 
about going into this game 

323
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,800
similar to too well for how you 
kind of bounce into it. 

324
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,000
I also had that same experience 
of like, what in the world is 

325
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,700
happening here. 
Like there's just so much text 

326
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:27,900
being dumped on you about the 
world and Exposition. 

327
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,400
I was like how do I put these 
things in context? 

328
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,200
How do I understand the 
concepts? 

329
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,300
And the were like it's also a 
bunch of new terminology. 

330
00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:40,000
It's not necessarily utilizing. 
You know, the terms that we use 

331
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:44,200
or old. 
They are not current, no not not

332
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,200
current and Nate. 
I think you had had experience 

333
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:53,500
reading text, like books outside
of gaming that present, world's,

334
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:56,900
in this sort of way where it's 
just like a dump, you just have 

335
00:18:56,900 --> 00:19:01,700
to essentially be with it and it
for a period of time before you 

336
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,800
can start making those 
connections and that was super, 

337
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,900
beneficial to me as I started 
playing to be like cold, like be

338
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:11,900
overwhelmed and exist, within 
that space and know that after. 

339
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,300
In a couple hours, things will 
start to form some sort of 

340
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:19,700
connections, hopefully, and then
that did in a recurring 

341
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:22,900
eventually. 
Yeah, I mean, I love me some, 

342
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:29,900
like, giant space operas right. 
Take your pick from, you know, 

343
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:35,200
mundane to Star Wars Star Trek 
to, you know, I've been watching

344
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,400
the expanse Mass Effect, even 
you know, kind of stuff, like 

345
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:41,600
all the Brandon Sanders didn't 
stuff, though. 

346
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:46,100
Real Time stuff like these. 
Huge big were epic worlds and if

347
00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:49,700
you were, you know, if anywhere 
to jump in in the middle of, you

348
00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:53,400
know, the 15th book in this 
series, of course, you're going 

349
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,900
to be as lost like, oh, who are 
these Powers? 

350
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:57,700
Why do they relate to each 
other? 

351
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,600
What does it mean to have, you 
know, a mass effect Drive? 

352
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,700
What, you know, like all the the
technology and all that, but in 

353
00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:10,100
almost all of those cases, it 
feels like they've built up to 

354
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:13,800
it. 
They They helped you build the 

355
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,600
understanding of the situation 
the, you know, enter political 

356
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,800
ramifications, the technology 
that all those kinds of things. 

357
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:26,900
And this game not only starting 
in media res, but then with that

358
00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:30,300
dump of completely foreign 
terminology. 

359
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:33,000
Yeah. 
I feel like if they had just 

360
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,900
used the In World in our world 
equivalents of a bunch of 

361
00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:42,500
things, it would have made it 
much more approachable. 

362
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,100
Yeah. 
That Sorry, starting off with 

363
00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,300
the bummer criticism but no. 
Yeah, we might be jumping ahead.

364
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,300
I think we'll get back to that. 
I think before we dive into the 

365
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:58,500
that bring us back into the meat
of this. 

366
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,600
I'm curious, who were your cops 
will? 

367
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,000
You've probably had like five? 
Well, hold on. 

368
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:07,500
Well, who is the character? 
Who's the main character? 

369
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:09,100
This game? 
Did you ever found out his name?

370
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,300
And any of your plate? 
There is Du Bois, right? 

371
00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:13,600
All right. 
Yeah. 

372
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,700
Are the wall? 
Here are your depois here here 

373
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,600
with an. 
Alright, that's what Harry Reid 

374
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,900
was that you have over the 
course of your life. 

375
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,500
So I have three main restarts 
that I can think of my first 

376
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:30,300
instinct was to go in and I 
wanted to play quote-unquote 

377
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:34,000
like myself. 
So very intellectually a focused

378
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:38,800
and a little bit of like 
dexterity focused and then you 

379
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,400
know, I it's funny because I was
Was telling me what the hell is 

380
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,400
this game. 
It's not even a game and then as

381
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,200
I'm telling Nate this I sit in a
chair and die like well shit. 

382
00:21:54,700 --> 00:22:00,100
So my my second main restart I 
was like, well, okay obviously 

383
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:01,900
Nate was right, there's a game 
here. 

384
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:05,900
So I'm going to play this like a
game and I went super into the 

385
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:09,200
physical traits. 
And that was kind of fun in a 

386
00:22:09,208 --> 00:22:11,200
way. 
I was able to like Brute force 

387
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,600
myself through a bunch of the 
areas of the game that I hadn't 

388
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,900
been able to figure out the 
first time stuff. 

389
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:22,000
Like the big, the racist guy, 
who's the guard on top of the, 

390
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,700
the defense measure straight up 
measuring. 

391
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:26,800
Yeah measure head. 
I straight-up roundhouse kick 

392
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,900
that dude in the face and walks 
through. 

393
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:36,400
There's a There's a there's a 
whole should tell that you have 

394
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,700
to like break in. 
There's a couple I think there's

395
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:43,000
at least two ways into but the 
way I got there was going 

396
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,800
through the bookstore, there's 
like the back room and then 

397
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,700
there's a door, and I just 
frigging slammed my way through 

398
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:51,800
that door, and had access to 
this hotel and the radio room 

399
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,600
and all that stuff, like way 
earlier than I did it. 

400
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,400
My my other playthroughs of the 
game. 

401
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,200
This sounds like an awesome 
build. 

402
00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:01,200
Yeah. 
Because it does all aside and do

403
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,900
this. 
It was Pretty awesome in that. 

404
00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:08,600
I could get places and go places
but at, you know, as I was 

405
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,700
talking to, Nate had no fucking 
clue what was going on. 

406
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:17,100
And fortunately, unfortunately, 
that build got borked due to 

407
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:21,700
some bugs, and I had to restart 
anyway, and so that main 

408
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:23,800
restart. 
I went with Nate suggestion to 

409
00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:30,300
load heavily into the, the, the 
one that has encyclopedia in it 

410
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:31,900
and a little bit of Health, a 
little bit. 

411
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:36,100
So the the health and morale 
were like the first stats that I

412
00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:39,400
invested in, so I had some 
wiggle room to play with and 

413
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,400
then with having the 
encyclopedia, I was able to get 

414
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,000
a lot more context, 
understanding what's going on in

415
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,600
retrospect, how I'm playing now 
is how I probably would have 

416
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,200
suggested for a first 
playthrough. 

417
00:23:53,800 --> 00:24:00,400
It's I'm a little bummed to hear
that that it is so focused. 

418
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,600
A single singular story because 
I kind of feel like I wanted to 

419
00:24:03,608 --> 00:24:06,600
play a second time to see where 
things went because even in my 

420
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,900
playthroughs, they've been 
pretty different and I'd like to

421
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:14,700
kind of revisit them. 
But to answer your question, my 

422
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:19,600
last cop was a started as a 
boring kapha but ended up being 

423
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:25,600
an art cop toward the end. 
I was my man to put some Trying 

424
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,000
to find the stuff to paint the 
wall. 

425
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,600
And then I leaned heavily into 
moralism, kind of the super 

426
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,900
Centrist point of view. 
The, there's a great option that

427
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,300
was like, you picked moralist 
because you keep picking D all 

428
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:42,800
of these other options sound 
crazy as fuck. 

429
00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:49,900
Mastic, that's great. 
Who are you Craig? 

430
00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:52,500
Oh man. 
So I only played through this 

431
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:56,600
truly and in one time I did 
start it once before and then 

432
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,000
maybe play like 20 minutes so I 
don't even count it. 

433
00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:03,800
But one thing that will brought 
up that I did want to hop onto 

434
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,700
before I move into my character 
was it is interesting that 

435
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:12,300
despite the plot getting to the 
same point you even mentioned 

436
00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:15,200
being able to do multiple 
playthroughs and see have A 

437
00:25:15,208 --> 00:25:17,000
drastically different 
experience. 

438
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,400
I think that's something that 
will come back to again, and 

439
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,900
again throughout this is that. 
Yeah, our own character sheet 

440
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:28,300
and the things that you Do put 
two skills to into or focus on 

441
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,600
dramatically changes your 
interaction with the world which

442
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,000
may not change the outcome but 
changes the perceived like 

443
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:40,700
activity as it does occur. 
Yeah and the outcome can be more

444
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:43,000
different than you'd think from 
what I said too. 

445
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,900
Yeah all right. 
That's that's fair. 

446
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:52,800
So my cop was my Harriet or 
Harrier was very much in tune 

447
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,200
with the city, so shivers Is one
of the skills that I put a lot 

448
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,400
of points into which I think had
like the description of, like, 

449
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,300
raise the hair on your neck and 
turn it tune into the City. 

450
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,000
And then, I also do Dove deep 
into like Inland Empire, which 

451
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,900
was like dreams in The Waking 
Life and bringing hunches and 

452
00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:21,500
different like imagination into 
the space as well as empathy and

453
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:25,000
I think like authority to some 
extent as well. 

454
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,700
So long lot of the psyche was 
the main area that I dove into 

455
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:32,500
and then would add points 
elsewhere where I needed to for 

456
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:35,800
checks, but that was kind of the
stuff that I would kept going 

457
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,300
back to listening within my head
is like, getting an idea of what

458
00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:42,600
is this place and where do I 
exist within it? 

459
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,100
And letting that color the 
experience, which might have 

460
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:50,200
made it far too abstract for me 
in some capacities of 

461
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,200
understanding, what in the hell 
is going on here, because 

462
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:59,000
everything was spoken about Out 
in like lyricism about a place 

463
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,300
as opposed to what anything 
actually is also favor. 

464
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,100
Yeah. 
Which beautiful to listen to and

465
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:10,800
read in very useless for 
understanding what's actually 

466
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,700
occurring. 
One follow-up, what was your 

467
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:17,700
approach on electrochemistry? 
Good question. 

468
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:20,100
Great quest. 
Do any drugs? 

469
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,900
I did not. 
I was a pretty like sober. 

470
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:25,500
Cop overall. 
Yeah, I love is also fairly 

471
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:29,300
sober to I told you to do. 
I told you both to do drugs in 

472
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:32,000
this game, but I think it's hard
to tell a first-time player of a

473
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,200
game like this to do drugs. 
Yeah, I think the one piece that

474
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,400
I was going with because this 
isn't a style of game that I 

475
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:43,400
naturally gravitate towards was 
like I want the content to be as

476
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,100
interesting to read. 
So if there's Pieces that are 

477
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:50,400
fulfilling that portion of it 
for me then, like, that's where 

478
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,300
I'm going to go into, looking 
back at it. 

479
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:57,600
I was like, I kind of wish this 
was what a 25-hour ish game 

480
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,700
somewhere in that range. 
I kind of wish it was like 12 

481
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:07,200
because I would love to go back 
and go like hog-wild I'm being 

482
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:13,400
like yeah simply like Communists
or go into drugs or other stuff 

483
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,800
of that nature on my super 
physical playthrough. 

484
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,400
I Was getting into a lot of 
drugs and using them for their 

485
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,600
stat bonuses and figuring out 
how to like optimize that way, 

486
00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:25,300
that was kind of interesting. 
But yeah, kind of like you're 

487
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:29,500
saying when I became more 
focused on what the heck is 

488
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:32,400
going on here. 
Drugs, seem like it would get 

489
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,100
more in the way than be helpful.
Yeah. 

490
00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:40,100
It is one of those places where 
when you're trying to choose 

491
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:44,500
your characters going to be. 
And again, like, I'm not a 

492
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:48,700
heavy-duty RPG, player usually 
don't head in these games, like 

493
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:51,400
I want to craft my experience. 
It's usually I'm going into it 

494
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,200
for an experience that is being 
told so thinking about that. 

495
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,700
And now having done this once 
I'm like I kind of wish I would 

496
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:02,900
have played further outside the 
lines of going into weird places

497
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:07,300
that I don't think I would have 
Gravitation towards you can 

498
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:09,600
speedrun and the cool thing 
about this game being so 

499
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,800
successful as the final cut 
clears up a lot of early 

500
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,700
roadblocks from people that went
way outside the game path. 

501
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,500
So there's been like a second 
pass and a lot of the Final Cut 

502
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:23,200
was cleaning up people that were
speedrunning and like, just 

503
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,800
truly going the wrong way, okay.
And it's received an unusual 

504
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,500
amount of polish for handling 
bizarre, choices. 

505
00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:34,300
Now, huh, I made this for you. 
Yeah. 

506
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:37,800
Before the Final Cut I was 
pretty much exactly what you'd 

507
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,000
expect. 
I flirted with hobo cup but 

508
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,400
became art cop with an actual 
art degree. 

509
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:46,300
I was a teetotaler didn't know? 
Drugs happen. 

510
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:49,000
I don't know. 
Yeah, I think I did sorry I had 

511
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,800
one of both the physical traits,
one point. 

512
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,100
So I was extremely close to 
dying at all points and without 

513
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:59,300
drugs that's actually that gets 
kind of hard at points. 

514
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,500
And I think if I recall 
correctly, I ended up giving up 

515
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:07,200
that in order to like make it 
through things that happen in 

516
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,100
late game cuz I needed like is 
like I gotta survive. 

517
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,300
So, I think I like started 
taking. 

518
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,700
I forget what just to survive. 
Let's see what else. 

519
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,200
Yeah, when I started the game, I
didn't know anything about it 

520
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,200
and it was right at launch so I 
didn't have too many Things to 

521
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,300
kind of guide me and I put all, 
I dumped all my points in Inland

522
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:29,300
Empire. 
I didn't really realize Shivers 

523
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,500
achieved something very similar 
until kind of later in the game 

524
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:36,500
which is kind of the thing that 
lets you sort of communicate 

525
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:40,300
with the phasmid, right like. 
Well, I guess that's also Inland

526
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:42,900
Empire which has interesting 
narrative implications by the 

527
00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:44,500
way. 
Does that mean the like bug is 

528
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:46,600
really a conversation with 
yourself? 

529
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,100
Yes. 
I think so. 

530
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:51,900
Like actual. 
Okay. 

531
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:54,600
Well, we should well come to 
that when we do, I guess. 

532
00:30:55,300 --> 00:31:00,000
Well I don't know if the bug as 
much as Dolores de is a 

533
00:31:00,008 --> 00:31:02,600
conversation with yourself. 
But again we will get there. 

534
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,400
How did you actually get that 
our conversation with Dolores? 

535
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:11,500
Yeah, I got a conversation with 
my ex-wife presenting as 

536
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:12,800
Dolores. 
Yeah. 

537
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,100
So I didn't know that was a 
thing until this week. 

538
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:17,200
Oh yeah, that was a really 
interesting. 

539
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Relation. 
But it was definitely, it was in

540
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,000
like this weird dream world. 
Yeah, it was yes. 

541
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,400
Yeah. 
It's an angel or steak 

542
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:29,100
confusing. 
Your ex-girlfriend with the 

543
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:31,400
Christ. 
And Mary figure is pretty great.

544
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:33,700
Yeah. 
And then like you essentially 

545
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:38,200
give yourself permission like 
move on in life you isn't don't 

546
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,100
you like doesn't it present as 
kind of a boss battle? 

547
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,300
Like you're trying to like win 
her back, aren't you? 

548
00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:46,200
And you end up failing? 
Yeah. 

549
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:49,500
Like in some ways that feels 
like the whole perception that 

550
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:52,400
gas boss bottle. 
Yeah and I was like, I didn't 

551
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,700
even get that. 
Yeah. 

552
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,900
So too will. 
Has point the the game can be 

553
00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:58,500
presented in multiple different 
ways. 

554
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:03,500
Yeah, it's interesting that this
is the only game I can think of 

555
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,200
where the events might be the 
same, but the flavors different 

556
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,000
and the flavor being different 
is like pretty, darn 

557
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800
significant. 
Yeah, I just want to mention 

558
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:18,400
what a lot o question. 
So one of the last things I did 

559
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,300
was get the gauntlets. 
Oh yeah. 

560
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,000
And during my physical Place 
through, I almost got the shoes 

561
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,800
characterizes with. 
Yeah. 

562
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,300
They were yep. 
Once I started looking at like 

563
00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:33,900
what the gauntlets did I look in
the UI? 

564
00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:40,100
There's a like an ammo. 
Like how as I'm looking at this,

565
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:45,300
I'm like, Something serious, 
like must happen here. 

566
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,800
As far as I know. 
The only shot that I ever took 

567
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,400
was shooting the guy down, which
I managed to successfully do 

568
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,500
twice. 
Apparently, did you really? 

569
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:56,500
That's amazing twice. 
Yeah, I definitely failed that. 

570
00:32:57,100 --> 00:33:00,300
So, did you get your case File 
like early project on Topsy? 

571
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:03,200
Super early. 
I didn't get it down to talk to 

572
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,400
him or something. 
Okay, yeah I did the autopsy on 

573
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,600
day one. 
Yeah, and shoved him into a nice

574
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,500
crate which made me nervous 
about myself. 

575
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,400
Second playthrough or in the 
freezer on day 10. 

576
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,000
All right. 
So yeah, that was explore 

577
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,400
through was was intense. 
Yeah, I guess what. 

578
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,700
You just tear that dude down. 
Put him in a crate and you're 

579
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:33,200
like, all right, once I figured 
out there and filled all topsy I

580
00:33:33,208 --> 00:33:36,100
think you remember you may or 
may not remember that I do is 

581
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,600
stressing over the phrase field,
autopsy? 

582
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,800
Like it was pretty nasty, sorry.
But what I wanted to come back 

583
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,700
to was there's all kinds of 
indications that you're like 

584
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:54,000
having shootouts and fighting 
with people and I guess you guys

585
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,300
described a shootout Ishq kind 
of thing at the end. 

586
00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:00,400
Like how does that even work in 
this game? 

587
00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:04,100
You can go in duel. 
Building to that fight. 

588
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:11,500
Yeah, there is a showdown when 
Okay, so world events right 

589
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:13,500
there is a labor strike 
occurring, right? 

590
00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:16,100
And scabs have been brought in 
and the mercenary that was 

591
00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:18,800
murdered was in town to kind of 
keep a handle on the situation. 

592
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,900
We can kind of talk political 
Theory, a little bit about the 

593
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:26,900
implications of this, but 
basically the labor, the labor 

594
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:30,900
union like uses the murder to 
like, look strong, right to 

595
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:32,800
remind everyone that they kind 
of control the town. 

596
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:36,100
But unfortunately, for them to 
other mercenaries roll into town

597
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:38,500
and just start shooting. 
Everyone is there essentially 

598
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:41,000
immune to the law. 
So when you come back from that 

599
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,900
secondary, you just got to you 
kind of things go down and you 

600
00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:47,500
kind of come back and there's a 
shootout occurring and 

601
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:52,000
unfortunately the outcomes of 
that are relatively fixed, but a

602
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,400
couple things can go down. 
Kim can get shot. 

603
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,900
They're like you having those 
guns. 

604
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,800
If what you're hoping for is 
like that. 

605
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,800
Can I use guns to resolve 
conversations? 

606
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,600
No. 
But there is one event we're 

607
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,800
having guns and ammo will help 
you. 

608
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,600
Yeah, and armor like I think 
that there is an ammo counter 

609
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:12,800
just. 
Yeah, that was my mind right 

610
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,300
like You're not like pointing at
things and shooting on the 

611
00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:18,800
screen, right? 
Correct. 

612
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,700
It's all still conversationally 
resolved, and it just affects 

613
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:25,800
your stats, but you do take 
multiple shots of the number of 

614
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,000
bullets is like relevant and 
that sense but can't isn't the 

615
00:35:28,008 --> 00:35:29,500
maximum. 
You can take like two. 

616
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:31,900
I think, I'm not sure. 
I don't. 

617
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:36,400
I I did have a gun at that point
but I never recovered my gun. 

618
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,700
So I went in without it and 
tried to converse my way out of 

619
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:39,600
that. 
And that's why. 

620
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:44,500
Both, I and Kim got shot. 
Did did Kevin died. 

621
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:48,700
I don't know if you're a guide, 
but he was out for the count and

622
00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:51,600
I finished the game with Kuno as
my garnishes Kuno. 

623
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,100
Oh, fuck him. 
Yeah, incredible. 

624
00:35:55,700 --> 00:36:01,100
He gets so shut down. 
And in the final scene after 

625
00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:03,900
everything goes down, he 
actually gets admitted a year 

626
00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:05,400
early to like their version of 
the Boy. 

627
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,400
Scouts to join the police force.
Oh, Jesus. 

628
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:09,600
Fuck off. 
What? 

629
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:13,100
It's kind of Great becomes a 
sort of sweet when he's out 

630
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:17,300
there with you. 
Yeah, I actually it's a buyer, 

631
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:22,600
not help reduce voice acting is 
just incredibly obnoxious thing 

632
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,500
for you guys to see the end 
because his character actually 

633
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,500
like becomes really interesting 
in the end and I forgot until I 

634
00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:32,100
was watching a bunch of media 
this week, why? 

635
00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:36,400
I was so judgmental of you guys 
being annoyed with Kuno, until I

636
00:36:36,408 --> 00:36:38,500
was like, oh yeah, of course. 
Because I've seen like gunas 

637
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:40,300
character Arc. 
What you only see if you have 

638
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,000
one specific ending. 
Yeah, that's interesting. 

639
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,800
Otherwise he's just Kind of an 
annoying brat with an abusive 

640
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,300
father. 
Like there's like reasons 

641
00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:49,300
either. 
I can understand. 

642
00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:52,000
It wasn't change, hide presents.
Yeah, he's very well. 

643
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,200
I'm actually don't think kunas 
annoying but Kuno s is annoying.

644
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,800
Yeah, great because Christmas is
like controlling. 

645
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,700
So when Kuno becomes like a 
character on his own away from 

646
00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:03,300
Kuno s, it's actually not it's 
like almost a different 

647
00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:07,500
character. 
I was considering getting up the

648
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:10,900
empathy to try to talk to him. 
That was kind of one of my next.

649
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,600
Yeah, he becomes kind of a sweet
nerd like he's really Excited. 

650
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,300
Would you see the phasmid? 
He was trying to use the camera 

651
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:21,700
to take a picture of it, but he 
messed it up and he like really 

652
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,700
was apologetic for that. 
And like in the end when I try 

653
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:27,200
to tell everyone at the final 
reporting that I saw the 

654
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,700
phasmid, there's no proof and 
everyone's like okay whatever. 

655
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:38,400
Like get the fuck out of here. 
I did also see I'm assuming the 

656
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:42,400
two other officers from your 
Precinct show up. 

657
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:45,300
Oh yeah there. 
Freaking cool. 

658
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:47,700
They are want nothing to do with
me. 

659
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,300
They do not known her. 
I really do not great. 

660
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,000
What's funny? 
Is kunos like cringe gets played

661
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,800
off at the end when the picture 
doesn't work. 

662
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,300
You're like there was a fast but
I swear and Evans like no, there

663
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:01,700
wasn't and who knows? 
Like yeah there was and everyone

664
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:06,000
is like now we definitely know. 
There isn't in your no man. 

665
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,900
Like God was the my picture did 
work. 

666
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,700
So I had actual proof that the 
past exists. 

667
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:17,000
That's great. 
Okay, let's get in some big 

668
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,200
picture thoughts. 
This mm, seems political you 

669
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,000
don't say, that's what makes 
this game seem political. 

670
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,000
And why is it more vertical in 
turn me off? 

671
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:35,300
Well, it's politics. 
Who wants to lead this did? 

672
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:38,700
Did this is less the politics 
that I don't like the political 

673
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:41,800
theory that I don't like. 
It is like political Theory. 

674
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,100
I don't know. 
It would you prefer it? 

675
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:46,600
If it was just like an 
anti-trump game with no 

676
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,100
political Theory, Well, here, 
let me ask here's here's a part.

677
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:52,500
I didn't get to. 
That's the question. 

678
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:57,000
I had a second ago. 
Ever Arts, the leader of the 

679
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,600
company. 
The labor union, right? 

680
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:04,100
Okay, so who's the leader of the
company? 

681
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,600
What company the shipping cover 
these labor to come laborers? 

682
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,500
Laboring for their part of a 
union. 

683
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:18,700
That's for the Dock Workers like
a dockworkers union and ever a 

684
00:39:18,707 --> 00:39:22,500
dyke is ideally you have a union
that's negotiating against a 

685
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:25,800
company right or companies. 
Is there? 

686
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,200
No representation for our these 
Union people. 

687
00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:33,600
Like they're supposing somebody 
who's not even in this game. 

688
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,700
Like the wild Pines group, is 
like the main? 

689
00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:39,000
That's who they're opposing, 
right? 

690
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,500
Yeah. 
Do they operate the port? 

691
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:46,400
Yeah, they have to deal with the
yeah, the industrial Harbor, 

692
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,800
right? 
And then wild Pines group is 

693
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,100
where Joyce Messier is like, the
company rep, that's their right.

694
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:57,100
She's the rich woman on the 
boat. 

695
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,700
Yeah, that makes sense. 
Okay, yeah, yeah. 

696
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,500
So that's who they're against, 
yes. 

697
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:11,700
What do you what what I mean? 
It, the power Dynamic seems 

698
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:15,200
really backward but then of 
course that is this game in a 

699
00:40:15,207 --> 00:40:20,500
nutshell, right? 
Like, Okay. 

700
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:27,100
If we're talking like, United 
States politics, right? 

701
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:30,100
You have some big company. 
Let's just say, for example, 

702
00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:32,900
Amazon and you have a bunch of 
people who are all trying to 

703
00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:36,100
form a union. 
So you bring in some external. 

704
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:41,100
Oh, this is my union Builder. 
Rep person to build a union, 

705
00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:44,800
right? 
I like, oh, bringing in somebody

706
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,300
from out of town to like, 
perform this Union, but this is 

707
00:40:48,300 --> 00:40:52,300
kind of backward, right? 
We have a super Strong union 

708
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:55,300
that already exists and we're 
going to bring somebody in to 

709
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:59,000
form the company that these 
unions are union, people are 

710
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:04,200
working for know, the company, 
wild Pines group already existed

711
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,400
in runs the thing. 
This is like the third time that

712
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,200
they're going on strike and 
striking against the group for 

713
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,400
further concessions, like that 
Amazon is the wild Pines group 

714
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,400
there, like the Consortium that 
runs the harbor. 

715
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,100
Also this isn't an American 
game. 

716
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,200
I don't think this is set in 
America. 

717
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:29,800
I mean very, very much not yeah,
right. 

718
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,400
But like this hole? 
This is part of why this is all 

719
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,500
so confusing to me. 
It's like, I don't know who the 

720
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:45,000
players are and who So and yeah 
Everett Claire is like the head 

721
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,100
of the Union. 
Like he's the one like 

722
00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:57,100
representing the Dock Workers 
against wild Pines group and and

723
00:41:57,100 --> 00:42:00,700
whoever was there originally as 
like The Negotiator for 

724
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:04,800
traditional sector work, 
understand that in this world, 

725
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,300
all these people are working for
the doc but the doc has no like 

726
00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:13,700
company management presents at 
all. 

727
00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:17,900
The wild Pines group owns the 
dock the wild Pines group is the

728
00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:22,200
company. 
But Like that lady, just comes 

729
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,800
in on a boat. 
She's not there. 

730
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:27,800
Yeah, I don't think we meet 
anyone like it it's sort of 

731
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,100
underrepresented but we hear 
about it like it's not like 

732
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:35,800
she's the only thing. 
Also, it's the super rich light 

733
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,400
bending guy from light, while 
Pines or not. 

734
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:45,800
Which guy was like, oh this is 
like the, you didn't like if you

735
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,700
manage to get inside, one of the
shipping containers, there's 

736
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:52,100
like a force of light in there 
that you can't look at just like

737
00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:54,600
Rich light. 
I was talking my way into their 

738
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,000
might know. 
Kill is I have like 12 points in

739
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,500
the in. 
You have to like logically talk 

740
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:06,300
your way into that shipping 
container and had 12 points in 

741
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:09,700
still, haven't made it up. 
That's amazing. 

742
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,900
Oh, I get what I thought. 
Kevin that he gives you but you 

743
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:15,900
can't even like look at him. 
He's like he's so rich that you 

744
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:17,800
can't even look at him, that's 
how rich. 

745
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,900
Oh yeah. 
So like the union also operates 

746
00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:24,600
as like a crime syndicate more 
or less, right? 

747
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,700
And like they're trafficking 
drugs through the port and 

748
00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:32,800
things of that nature as well. 
So there's like, It's a whole 

749
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,400
thing happening there. 
It's just a second since neither

750
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,600
of you met the wild white 
wedding, especially mega-rich 

751
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,000
light bending guy roast on the 
adore, is a multi-billionaire 

752
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,400
speculated to be in the triple 
digits. 

753
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,100
Residing in a container in the 
North in the container yard. 

754
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,900
He has an incredibly high 
net-worth due to inheriting an 

755
00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:52,800
enormous sum from his 
grandmother and proceeding to 

756
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,200
invest it with an economic 
coefficient of over .96 at least

757
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,400
between him and Harry Dubois. 
He's traveling on the cheap with

758
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,400
his entire container. 
Ship from one point to another 

759
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,300
in order to prevent being 
Subjected to targeted 

760
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:06,600
advertising for luxury items due
to his wealth allowing him. 

761
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,100
Effectively, no problems. 
He believes that material goods 

762
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:11,700
are not as important as mental 
space and time. 

763
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:17,000
So this Games version of like, 
Ultra richness is like you just 

764
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,900
don't even care about material 
wealth anymore, which is kind of

765
00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:22,800
Interesting. 
All right. 

766
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,500
So, back to the game, being 
political there is something 

767
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:31,200
that Nate the you, and I talked 
about separate from the podcast 

768
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,500
that resonated strongly her, 
which was like the idea of the 

769
00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:36,000
Imperial core. 
And I think that's like, what? 

770
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,200
Flavors? 
This space. 

771
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,200
Can you elaborate on that for 
the listeners? 

772
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,800
And well, well well at fear of 
triggering will hoop. 

773
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,300
Sounds like it doesn't like 
political Theory. 

774
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:52,300
The Imperial core is this idea 
that there are markets post 1970

775
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:57,500
at the onset of neoliberalism? 
They're ran out of we stopped 

776
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,300
having the ability for all 
places to benefit equally from 

777
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:02,800
capitalism around 1970 and 
that's one of the things that 

778
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,300
defines neoliberalism is that 
the world bifurcates into the 

779
00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:11,000
Imperial core which is areas 
that directly benefit from 

780
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,300
capitalism. 
I'm dying watching wolves 

781
00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:18,900
response to the periphery which 
is destined to be more extracted

782
00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:22,600
from than in can benefit from 
the effects of its extraction, 

783
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,600
right? 
So in sum The whole thing. 

784
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,200
You got America saves from the 
dead and excitement pedia. 

785
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:33,500
Yeah. 
And you've got to look like 

786
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:35,800
skill set and yeah I got it. 
That's right. 

787
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,500
The Imperial chorus the place 
that benefits from capitalism 

788
00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:41,300
and the periphery is what does 
the West? 

789
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,000
So you can have the West is the 
Imperial core but more than that

790
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:50,800
like America is decreased or but
well, we're talking in human 

791
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,600
world. 
Although yeah. 

792
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,700
But also America has parts of it
that are the periphery to write 

793
00:45:56,700 --> 00:46:00,300
like West Virginia, maybe in the
Imperial Court globally, but it 

794
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:03,500
certainly think America's he 
meant the wild west. 

795
00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:05,400
Oh no. 
It's like Wyoming. 

796
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,600
Yes. 
Like cowboy times the West's was

797
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,700
the no. 
I mean the theoretically the 

798
00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:16,700
part of the United States which 
benefit from the yeah and 

799
00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:18,800
ignores the south of both 
hemispheres. 

800
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:25,900
Okay. 
Yeah, so in this game from a 

801
00:46:25,900 --> 00:46:30,300
political Theory, angle Kuno 
represents the periphery Kuno is

802
00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:34,000
outside of the Imperial core and
is being extracted from. 

803
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,400
His parents are addicted to 
drugs. 

804
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,200
He has no means of success. 
There's nowhere for him to go in

805
00:46:38,207 --> 00:46:40,700
the world even though he is kind
of. 

806
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:46,000
I mean I think also Jamrock is 
kind of I forget my specific 

807
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,700
place names. 
Jamrock is the city right? 

808
00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:54,900
Or is it like State. 
Oh man, I think it's the like 

809
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,900
state. 
I was gonna say we should he, we

810
00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:05,000
should try not getting too tied 
up and specifics geographically.

811
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,200
But basically disco Elysium is 
like a game that's taking place 

812
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,700
in something at the margins of 
the core and the periphery. 

813
00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:16,600
And what's, if Kuno represents 
the periphery, then, what 

814
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,100
represents the Imperial Court or
the mercenaries who show up as 

815
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:23,500
the colonizers, there's no law 
applying to them whatsoever. 

816
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:25,000
They can shoot whoever they 
want. 

817
00:47:25,100 --> 00:47:29,600
They destroy the labor union. 
Like when you get shot as You 

818
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,500
Fade Out, you hear the sounds of
The Hardy Boys and everyone else

819
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:35,900
getting shot like to death by 
many book gunshots. 

820
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:39,700
There's no consequence for these
people and that's kind of a 

821
00:47:39,700 --> 00:47:43,900
political commentary on how the 
West interfaces with regions 

822
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:46,300
that are not in the Imperial 
core. 

823
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,800
So that's some fun economic and 
political Theory. 

824
00:47:53,700 --> 00:47:56,600
Yeah, and even when you're 
starting this out right near, 

825
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,900
like moving through the world, 
this is a world that's clearly 

826
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:04,400
been at the end of Revolution or
Wars, right? 

827
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:09,600
There's like still bullet holes 
thrown across this like the city

828
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,700
is in like tatters as far as 
there was clearly military 

829
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:17,000
operations and areas, bombed out
that were never recovered. 

830
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:21,900
And also there's like no hope of
it seeming to be recovered, 

831
00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:23,900
right? 
It's oh yeah, the rubbish and 

832
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:26,000
soiled. 
Yeah, like the revolution failed

833
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,400
and also no one's coming to like
help pour money into this area 

834
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:34,400
either and even when you break 
into a 26-story building, that's

835
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,800
only got four floors. 
Yeah exactly. 

836
00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:42,100
And there's even an opportunity 
later in the game to like help 

837
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:47,200
like modernize a portion of like
the old fishing Village and it's

838
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,400
all played out essentially as 
like, this is not actually, Here

839
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,800
to help the people here. 
Like this is a way to try and 

840
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,300
enrich some of the coffers of 
someone that's already wealthy. 

841
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:00,600
But like this isn't going to 
actually help the community in 

842
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:06,100
any capacity, which gets back 
into that Imperial Court gets 

843
00:49:06,100 --> 00:49:10,200
back into like this, like a 
helpless world to live in and 

844
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,600
what does that say about the 
politics of that region or that 

845
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,600
sort of worldview when that 
exist? 

846
00:49:17,500 --> 00:49:21,800
So Yes, I think that's very well
said. 

847
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,700
Well do you have any questions 
for we move on? 

848
00:49:23,900 --> 00:49:28,000
I have a, I have a related. 
But embellishing thought so 

849
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,500
many? 
I don't know. 

850
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,700
It's a fine God. 
We're going on a journey or 

851
00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:39,700
tonight or will. 
I think when we're thinking 

852
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:42,300
about what makes this game, 
political, I think the top-level

853
00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:45,700
answer is it's using gameplay, 
mechanics, and it's words to 

854
00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:48,800
comment on political structures 
and systems. 

855
00:49:48,900 --> 00:49:52,100
Systems that affect the world 
that we live in as the players 

856
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:54,500
as well as the NPC's in the 
game. 

857
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:56,900
Right? 
So I think that's the like 

858
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,300
answer it. 
I think that's, that's a piece 

859
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:03,600
of it and other place here is 
that the game seemed more 

860
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:10,600
interested with understanding 
the world and what what has 

861
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,000
occurred within this space to be
able to set up the circumstances

862
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,100
that take place than it does 
about any character within the 

863
00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:18,300
game? 
Right? 

864
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,400
Yeah, I think that's a really 
good way to put it. 

865
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:27,400
I think what sets it apart for 
me so drastically is that the 

866
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,900
game is about the systems that 
interact with people in the 

867
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:34,900
world, not how the people 
interact with the systems in the

868
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:36,800
world. 
Well, that's good because I was 

869
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,900
just going to challenge you. 
What you are basically saying 

870
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:41,300
before, like place setting is 
what makes it political. 

871
00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:44,300
And it's like so, like a Brandon
Sanderson novel that's like 

872
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:46,300
extremely interested in, 
establishing a world is 

873
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:48,900
political not. 
Hold on, before we answer, Sure.

874
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:52,800
That well I got the results of 
your thought cabinet thought 

875
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,400
here. 
Oh man and it just says this, 

876
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,800
it's a little totally unusual 
for the game. 

877
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,500
You have really great 
determination and dance form and

878
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:04,600
I'm proud to have seen you grow 
all these years. 

879
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,500
From salsa, through West Coast, 
your determination to always 

880
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:10,700
grow in skills is amazing. 
Now, this has the following 

881
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:13,600
effects plus. 
One hand, eye coordination, in 

882
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,200
the text. 
There is gotcha. 

883
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,700
You got a +2 pain threshold. 
Yeah. 

884
00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:21,800
Feel my feet. 
It's listed you get a minus one.

885
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,700
Esprit de corps, dancing. 
The night away and a minus one 

886
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,200
on rhetoric. 
Let's Just Dance it out. 

887
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,600
He's perfect fantastic. 
Congratulations. 

888
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,300
Thank you. 
Yeah, unfortunately, you no 

889
00:51:36,300 --> 00:51:38,600
longer have a, I didn't mean to 
set it up this way. 

890
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,000
But unfortunately, you no longer
have a plus 2, talking about 

891
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,900
disco, Elysium. 
So Craig's, got like a 15-minute

892
00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:50,300
bonus here. 
All right, so you're saying 

893
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:56,000
basically Craig that the I don't
think it's about the place that 

894
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,900
setting up the systems and their
influence on the Region's 

895
00:52:00,900 --> 00:52:08,300
inhabitants is political. 
Yeah, and even like the economy 

896
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:11,300
of the world, right? 
Like that has a political 

897
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:14,500
undertones like that exists for 
a specific reason and has 

898
00:52:14,500 --> 00:52:18,200
reasons on how it came to be. 
And a lot of the game is a 

899
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,800
exploring, your knowledge of 
like why is the system setup or 

900
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,600
rigged against these people in 
certain ways? 

901
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,400
And it's all because of some 
sort of political machinations 

902
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,400
as far as how the world has like
come to exist, within the power 

903
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,000
structure of it, right? 
Like that's what what I Sets 

904
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,600
that apart because it's about 
it's about those thoughts, much 

905
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,600
more than it's about like Hey, 
how do you feel about this 

906
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,500
thing, right? 
It's like know what's this thing

907
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:48,500
that has been set up by people 
pressing into you? 

908
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,500
What do you think for what 
you've played? 

909
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:56,600
Well, You mentioned that it's 
like sort of it sounded like a 

910
00:52:56,607 --> 00:53:00,100
negative implication of the 
amount of political Theory going

911
00:53:00,100 --> 00:53:02,300
on is that what makes it 
political to you? 

912
00:53:09,900 --> 00:53:19,300
I mmm. 
I don't feel like I'm Hmm. 

913
00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:22,700
I think that here's something 
interesting. 

914
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:25,800
I was just looking at the 
political alignments for this 

915
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:30,000
game, all on the list of 
political alignments of, which I

916
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:36,700
was kind of surprised that Ultra
level ultra-liberal is the only 

917
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:39,600
like capitalist alignment that I
saw. 

918
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,800
If I could have sworn there was 
going to be more but this has a 

919
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,000
list of organizations that align
with those political alignments.

920
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,400
And so I think that's quite 
interesting and as I'm saying 

921
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,800
this, I'm like, oh yeah. 
That kind of makes sense. 

922
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,100
And I can kind of see how the 
players might align based on 

923
00:53:56,100 --> 00:54:01,300
their ideology and it kind of 
fits the way I I picked, you 

924
00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:06,700
know, I was mostly playing us. 
The moral is Or organizations 

925
00:54:06,700 --> 00:54:11,200
include the moral intern, which 
is kind of the overall Mega, 

926
00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:15,100
the, the Illuminati, kind of 
people. 

927
00:54:15,100 --> 00:54:16,400
I guess. 
Maybe something. 

928
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:21,900
But more importantly, the second
one is the, the citizens 

929
00:54:21,900 --> 00:54:24,800
militia. 
So the actual cop group. 

930
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:28,100
So I was playing as a cop that 
believes in cops and they like, 

931
00:54:28,300 --> 00:54:31,400
fits perfectly. 
But yeah I thought that like 

932
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,600
being able to understand how 
these these groups are generally

933
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:41,200
associated with their political 
ideology, understanding how and 

934
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:50,800
who they interrelate with seems 
like Had I had a better innate 

935
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:56,700
or Nate natural grass of these 
Concepts. 

936
00:54:56,700 --> 00:54:59,500
I would have had a much better 
time, understanding the kind of 

937
00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:01,200
interrelationships between all 
of them. 

938
00:55:01,500 --> 00:55:05,500
But being able to like see it on
paper come back have a. 

939
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:11,000
Now with my retroactive somewhat
retroactive perspective of like,

940
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:16,900
oh these are the people that 
care about yeah. 

941
00:55:16,900 --> 00:55:19,500
It just Don't know. 
It kind of seemed too 

942
00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:23,300
complicated at the early stages 
that I keep being in. 

943
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:29,000
I think Craig mentioned earlier 
of the idea that maybe I told 

944
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,800
him about or maybe he this just 
happens in life. 

945
00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:35,800
There's a lot of media that 
throws you into stuff. 

946
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,400
There's no you're not supposed 
to have an onboarding path where

947
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,300
it explains it to you piece it 
together by being overwhelmed 

948
00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:45,000
for some number of hours, until 
it starts to make itself. 

949
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:50,800
Evident through the things. 
And I think it's a It would be 

950
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,500
frustrating to play this game 
and think that you're supposed 

951
00:55:54,500 --> 00:55:55,900
to get it all from the 
beginning. 

952
00:55:56,900 --> 00:56:04,700
I've probably got 20 hours and 
what am I supposed to get it? 

953
00:56:05,700 --> 00:56:08,400
Like I don't think it's by 
playing the beginning multiple 

954
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:09,700
times. 
I think it's by getting to the 

955
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:11,900
end and seeing what the game is,
like thrusting at. 

956
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,200
Yeah. 
How long was this game supposed 

957
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,900
to have been like 25 hours ish 
somewhere in that range? 

958
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:23,100
But obviously that's super 
variable depending on 

959
00:56:23,100 --> 00:56:26,400
conversation and how much you're
talking to people and what 

960
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:31,200
you're trying to main line? 
But I do think there's something

961
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,200
about Like some combination in 
that to me. 

962
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,800
Where one of it is about just 
being overwhelmed by it. 

963
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,900
Another piece is as certain 
point. 

964
00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:43,100
You start being able to at least
add context around it of like, 

965
00:56:43,500 --> 00:56:47,300
oh okay, we're talking about 
income inequality, we're talking

966
00:56:47,300 --> 00:56:51,800
about the way that racism 
presents within this space, 

967
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,000
we're talking about systemic 
oppression, we're talking about 

968
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,300
these sorts of Concepts and once
I was able to start to wrap my 

969
00:56:58,300 --> 00:57:01,400
mind around, okay? 
These are the things, and this 

970
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,100
is how they show up in those. 
World. 

971
00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:06,500
And this is how it's like, 
impacting the different people 

972
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:10,000
that persist here, that's when 
it started to click separately, 

973
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,100
for me than outside of it being 
like, Oh, I need to understand 

974
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:19,000
specifically what these actual 
terminology or places mean 

975
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,300
within this game. 
Yeah, I think this is a better. 

976
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,600
Better example of the point. 
I was trying to make earlier 

977
00:57:25,900 --> 00:57:28,000
badly. 
I'm sure there's stuff like 

978
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,600
under that's racist racism, 
right? 

979
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,700
You run into at least three or 
four. 

980
00:57:32,900 --> 00:57:36,400
People early on in the game. 
Who are explicitly racist? 

981
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:44,300
Yeah, and one Fortunately, the 
game calls out specifically. 

982
00:57:44,300 --> 00:57:47,900
Hey, this dude is being racist 
because some of the ways in 

983
00:57:47,900 --> 00:57:51,000
which they're being racist, 
aren't obvious. 

984
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,900
The the one guy says, welcome to
Raven. 

985
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:01,600
Welcome to reason small 
crossover of the Year. 

986
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:03,400
Oh shit, how we ended up in 
Half-Life again? 

987
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,500
Fuck. 
Yeah. 

988
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,500
As we always do, welcome to 
roshal. 

989
00:58:07,700 --> 00:58:09,200
I think the shawl. 
Yeah, yes. 

990
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,500
And that is a racist phrase and 
then they kind of go and explain

991
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:18,300
why that's a racist phrase. 
And then like, all right, I 

992
00:58:18,300 --> 00:58:22,800
don't understand what the races 
are in this game. 

993
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:27,700
I don't understand. 
I think, I think that an endo 

994
00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:32,400
tribe is a race. 
I or ethnicity. 

995
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:40,200
Oh, we like like Go ahead. 
No, I was just going to say 

996
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,800
like, I'm not fully sure either.
yeah, I know there's like 

997
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,100
ancestry that's like brought up 
about where people are like it 

998
00:58:49,100 --> 00:58:54,600
was like an extra level of 
complexity that I don't know. 

999
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,200
You guys tell me if it pays off,
but it doesn't seem like if they

1000
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,900
would have just picked races. 
Like maybe it becomes more 

1001
00:59:02,900 --> 00:59:04,800
fraught in trying to put a game 
out. 

1002
00:59:04,900 --> 00:59:09,200
If you have guys who were like, 
specifically racist against the 

1003
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,200
Asian Community Indian 
Community. 

1004
00:59:11,700 --> 00:59:16,300
So, if you all of a sudden, the,
the like specific cultural 

1005
00:59:16,300 --> 00:59:20,500
context against being, you know,
something of this world, but 

1006
00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:26,500
like needing, To pick entirely 
to generate these new races and 

1007
00:59:26,500 --> 00:59:31,800
not being not being words that 
sound like races like it just 

1008
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,400
becomes confusing and a whole 
lot of other way. 

1009
00:59:35,900 --> 00:59:39,400
There's a much higher like 
mental hurdle to continue to 

1010
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:43,100
place that in context of oh you 
use this word, you know, like oh

1011
00:59:43,100 --> 00:59:47,000
shit, that was racist in the 
context of this world, right? 

1012
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,000
So it's like you have to learn 
where those are presented and 

1013
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,700
then remember oh okay this Word 
isn't a location. 

1014
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,500
It's not a concept, it's not a 
person. 

1015
00:59:57,500 --> 01:00:04,500
It's a like racist like phrase 
being hurled at someone and 

1016
01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:08,800
Sometimes they context can be 
subtle enough. 

1017
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:12,400
That it's just like that 
implicit version of racism, 

1018
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,400
right? 
Like the unconscious racism, 

1019
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,800
that gets or bias that gets 
thrown into different places 

1020
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,800
there were without you knowing 
like that's what's happening. 

1021
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,500
I think there's just extra work 
that you have to do there from a

1022
01:00:23,508 --> 01:00:27,600
mental hurdle to cover that I 
think we're slipping down a bit 

1023
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:31,300
into. 
This game is obviously made a 

1024
01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:33,900
choice to be a piece of media 
that is. 

1025
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,100
You're in it. 
Good luck, figuring it out. 

1026
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,500
So there are, there are books 
out there, right? 

1027
01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:44,800
That Unfortunately, yet 
literature we have to pull on 

1028
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,700
here because gaming doesn't 
really do this a lot. 

1029
01:00:46,700 --> 01:00:49,400
I think gaming is very 
entrenched in the if I'm going 

1030
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,400
to throw you into new stuff, 
well I better do the work to get

1031
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,500
you there but there are tons and
tons of books where you're 

1032
01:00:56,500 --> 01:01:00,200
thrown in the deep end. 
And those books are often 

1033
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,000
commentating on our real world, 
but are choosing to remove that 

1034
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:08,000
from you by one layer for 
reasons that I would say, 

1035
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:13,100
oftentimes aren't Like they 
don't pay off, but they make it 

1036
01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:15,500
more fun to a certain kind of 
reader, it's an adventure to 

1037
01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:18,900
read them. 
And I think that disco Elysium 

1038
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:23,800
To your point will using race. 
In this game is interesting 

1039
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,000
because some races get 
compressed and others are 

1040
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,900
expanded according to whatever 
the game needs to do. 

1041
01:01:30,500 --> 01:01:35,100
And I kind of have a few 
thoughts on race and the way it 

1042
01:01:35,100 --> 01:01:37,800
uses specific races here in a 
minute that are interesting, but

1043
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:41,600
Like it's a fair thing to call 
out, but I think this game is 

1044
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,400
making the choice to keep these 
things. 

1045
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,800
Like one layer removed. 
Yeah. 

1046
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:52,100
It's less a matter of like. 
It all depends on the context, 

1047
01:01:52,100 --> 01:01:53,800
right? 
If you're watching a 20-minute 

1048
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:58,400
TV series and the whole point is
that you're lost and you can be 

1049
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,500
completely lost for 20 minutes 
that's completely fine. 

1050
01:02:01,900 --> 01:02:08,800
If if I'm reading a 5000 page 
book and I'm supposed to be lost

1051
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:11,800
for 4,000 pages of that, five 
thousand page book. 

1052
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:18,500
That's a completely different 
ask of the consumer and like in 

1053
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:21,200
some parts I get it. 
Particularly, because of the way

1054
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,600
I played this game. 
Like you want to save stuff for 

1055
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:30,300
somebody who's into encyclopedia
you, you need to have some 

1056
01:02:30,300 --> 01:02:34,400
payoff for them. 
So everybody else is inherently 

1057
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:38,100
going to get less information so
that encyclopedia does pay off. 

1058
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:43,900
Like they built a skill around 
having some way to explain the 

1059
01:02:43,900 --> 01:02:51,800
context of the game. 
Like I I just it it Not a fan 

1060
01:02:52,100 --> 01:02:55,500
that's all. 
It's like, I mean, it's just 

1061
01:02:55,500 --> 01:03:00,000
like the authorial intent is, is
to create that space like it's 

1062
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:01,800
gonna work for some people and 
not for others. 

1063
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,400
I do think it pays off. 
I mean Craig you're the you're 

1064
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,300
the middle. 
Every man in this situation, you

1065
01:03:07,300 --> 01:03:09,200
are surely overwhelmed at the 
beginning, right? 

1066
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:11,600
Did it pay off for you? 
Did this all become more clear? 

1067
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,900
It did I didn't think that I 
needed to get in till the very 

1068
01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:19,600
end for it to become clear and I
don't know. 

1069
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,800
And there's still places that 
aren't clear. 

1070
01:03:22,700 --> 01:03:26,200
I also kind of got to a space 
where I thought that that was 

1071
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:30,700
intentional that you weren't 
supposed to be able to neatly 

1072
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:33,500
pack it up all of these thoughts
and put them into a box. 

1073
01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:38,100
And I thought I was like, maybe 
that's part of The history of 

1074
01:03:38,300 --> 01:03:42,400
who created this game is that it
wasn't neatly packaged into 

1075
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:47,300
Concepts and into themes that 
end up with like you know, are 

1076
01:03:47,300 --> 01:03:50,000
bowed and tie it off, right? 
And instead there was like 

1077
01:03:50,700 --> 01:03:53,900
there's just like things happen 
in the world that like you can't

1078
01:03:53,900 --> 01:03:57,000
really place or that don't 
really have space to be 

1079
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,600
explored. 
But there was also I think I 

1080
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:04,700
just had a belief that if I 
looked hard enough or if I were 

1081
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:08,800
able to explore some other skill
cabinet thoughts or just other 

1082
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,300
pieces there that like 
everything felt like it had 

1083
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:15,500
grounding to be flushed out 
whether or not I had actually 

1084
01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:18,100
exported enough to be able to 
get to that point, right? 

1085
01:04:18,100 --> 01:04:22,500
So there's like a trust built up
that the depth does exist there,

1086
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:27,200
if you go out and find it, and 
that's one of the places where I

1087
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,200
did see some sort of payoff 
there, but in a completely 

1088
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,700
different way. 
Probably, It didn't mean to 

1089
01:04:32,707 --> 01:04:36,900
leave me feeling like oh I get 
it but I left feeling like I 

1090
01:04:36,900 --> 01:04:40,000
understand what they're trying 
to do and I respect them. 

1091
01:04:40,900 --> 01:04:43,000
Can I add a quick counter point 
to myself? 

1092
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:47,300
Sure counter yourself. 
There's a lot of interesting 

1093
01:04:47,300 --> 01:04:52,900
stuff in the visual style 
particularly in the art around 

1094
01:04:52,900 --> 01:05:01,100
the thought cabinets that is 
just so like complex and Like 

1095
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:04,400
they're these super weird 
detailed yet. 

1096
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:12,000
Also abstract representations of
these con Plex thought 

1097
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:20,000
constructs that like they're 
great representations of that 

1098
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,800
same kind of thing you're 
talking about where it is bull. 

1099
01:05:25,900 --> 01:05:30,400
Visually kind of trying to give 
you an idea of what's going on, 

1100
01:05:30,700 --> 01:05:37,100
but also leaving all these gray 
areas for it is hinting at 

1101
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:40,200
excessive complexity to make you
feel. 

1102
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,400
Like, if you just kept digging, 
you would understand more and 

1103
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,300
more of this world whether or 
not that's actually true or not,

1104
01:05:47,900 --> 01:05:51,800
Yeah, which is a like a piece of
advice. 

1105
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,600
I don't know if it's Vice but 
it's a characteristic of a lot 

1106
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,700
of great writing right designed 
to make you think that there's a

1107
01:05:57,707 --> 01:06:00,100
lot more there and even if it 
doesn't need to tell you it. 

1108
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:04,500
Yeah, I think this is just the 
first time I've seen that 

1109
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:08,300
visually, yeah, that was worth 
calling out. 

1110
01:06:08,500 --> 01:06:11,700
It is, that's where this feels 
different in a game. 

1111
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,400
Yeah, that's the big piece that 
I'm like, oh this this showing 

1112
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,100
up in this medium. 
Like is why I wanted to talk 

1113
01:06:20,100 --> 01:06:23,800
about this game because it's 
that's one of the pieces that I 

1114
01:06:23,808 --> 01:06:27,600
truly feel similar to me when 
I'm like, we're so used to just 

1115
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,900
being spoon-fed. 
Like, here is the thing, like 

1116
01:06:30,900 --> 01:06:33,700
here is what you understand. 
Here is, how your game, here's 

1117
01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:36,600
your play, and how it interacts 
directly with here. 

1118
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,400
This is. 
Yes, is the challenge and 

1119
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,700
sometimes there's gray area to 
be explored there. 

1120
01:06:41,700 --> 01:06:45,700
But usually, Ali not in the way 
of like Tomo, text can present 

1121
01:06:45,700 --> 01:06:47,800
to you. 
I think visual media in general,

1122
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:52,500
has a hard time being vague it. 
Yeah it's there on the screen 

1123
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:55,400
right? 
It's very hard to pull off 

1124
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,200
something vague in a visual 
medium that isn't just like, 

1125
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:00,800
well why didn't you tell me 
more? 

1126
01:07:01,300 --> 01:07:01,900
Where is it? 
Looks? 

1127
01:07:01,900 --> 01:07:05,600
I think excel at that. 
Oh, that's a really good point 

1128
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:07,100
before we get to that. 
Yeah. 

1129
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:09,200
Craig. 
I just got the results of your 

1130
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,300
white check. 
Here are your clothes, I'm 

1131
01:07:11,300 --> 01:07:13,900
sorry. 
And again, the tone is a little 

1132
01:07:13,900 --> 01:07:17,200
strange with this one. 
It says you have great legs and 

1133
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,800
calves and feet, and I'm so 
proud of your yoga achievements 

1134
01:07:21,300 --> 01:07:24,400
and your overall transformation 
of Health over your life and all

1135
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:26,800
the time, I've known you is 
inspirational and fantastic. 

1136
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:33,700
Now, the effects of that are 
plus one suggestion, he handsome

1137
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:39,300
plus to volition, not going to 
die yet and - to 

1138
01:07:39,300 --> 01:07:46,000
electrochemistry, I'm going to 
bed very well. 

1139
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,100
Played excellent. 
I appreciate my white Check. 

1140
01:07:50,700 --> 01:07:56,000
Yes. 
You know, I think I'm not sure 

1141
01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:00,100
if in my mind this makes is it 
makes sense as a transition 

1142
01:08:00,100 --> 01:08:03,600
point, is there a price point 
that this game is trying to 

1143
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:08,300
make? 
And I think that a lack of 

1144
01:08:08,300 --> 01:08:13,700
clarity is actually like one of 
the direct like statements and 

1145
01:08:13,700 --> 01:08:18,000
goals of this game. 
I think the narrative and the 

1146
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,500
way the narrative is delivered 
and even the mechanics to some 

1147
01:08:20,500 --> 01:08:26,800
extent deliver this idea that 
The past is intertwined with the

1148
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,500
present, there's no escaping. 
The failure of the Revolution 

1149
01:08:29,500 --> 01:08:32,399
but yet, we're here now. 
There's no other ways. 

1150
01:08:32,700 --> 01:08:36,899
Things could have been but also 
like none of us really 

1151
01:08:36,899 --> 01:08:39,100
understand why we're in this 
situation. 

1152
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:44,399
Things aren't really clear. 
So something I think is really 

1153
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:47,399
cool about this game. 
I was really moved by the way, 

1154
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:50,700
it ends and talking to the 
phasmid, and one of the reasons 

1155
01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:53,800
for that, and I just love that 
in the game was over. 

1156
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:55,700
I thought wow. 
What a beautiful conversation 

1157
01:08:55,700 --> 01:08:58,000
but the more you think about it,
the more it's like oh I think 

1158
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,600
this is what this game is 
talking about and trying to say 

1159
01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:06,300
so will this phasmid you talk to
at the end of the game has this 

1160
01:09:06,300 --> 01:09:11,200
idea that human thought is 
displacing the natural world and

1161
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:17,200
will inevitably result in its 
Extinction and the phasmid uses 

1162
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:20,700
various aspects of control to 
like try to contain the human 

1163
01:09:20,700 --> 01:09:24,399
race and their thoughts. 
Specifically and I I think the 

1164
01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:28,500
pail is one of those tools that 
it uses to like keep humans from

1165
01:09:28,700 --> 01:09:30,700
like extinct defying, the rest 
of the world. 

1166
01:09:30,899 --> 01:09:35,600
He Compares like human thoughts,
arrival on the planet to be 

1167
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,700
like, when Earth gained oxygen 
and what that did to anaerobic 

1168
01:09:39,700 --> 01:09:42,300
life. 
And there's this really 

1169
01:09:42,300 --> 01:09:44,700
interesting. 
I it sort of suggests that he's 

1170
01:09:44,700 --> 01:09:47,899
been around for 350 years 
watching and taking some hand, 

1171
01:09:47,899 --> 01:09:50,899
in the political events of 
rubbish, all and the whole 

1172
01:09:50,899 --> 01:09:55,000
region. 
And that like you just say that 

1173
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,000
time for him. 
That's how long he tells you 

1174
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,500
he's been there. 
I think it's kind of implied 

1175
01:09:59,500 --> 01:10:01,300
that there was something else 
before him doing this. 

1176
01:10:01,300 --> 01:10:03,600
I don't know if I don't know 
though. 

1177
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,200
No, no, I'm sorry, nor do I know
how long like, I don't really 

1178
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:08,900
know about the Deep history of 
this region. 

1179
01:10:08,900 --> 01:10:10,200
Like how long has it been 
around? 

1180
01:10:11,300 --> 01:10:14,500
I'm sure some of the 
encyclopedia would have told me 

1181
01:10:14,500 --> 01:10:21,800
that There's this idea that the 
revolution, he's, he talks about

1182
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:25,900
having seen the revolutions come
and go, and it's like all of 

1183
01:10:25,900 --> 01:10:29,400
Humanity's locked in a 
repetitive cycle of like ideas. 

1184
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,000
And it kind of seems like, he's 
kind of, the reason, the thing 

1185
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,800
that's keeping humans in this 
cycle. 

1186
01:10:35,300 --> 01:10:38,600
And I think so much in my, like,
personal life as Nate about, 

1187
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,900
like, the future, the past, I 
love history, and the future. 

1188
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,700
And it's so beautiful to me that
this game is like, having these 

1189
01:10:45,700 --> 01:10:47,400
thoughts about some 
Supernatural. 

1190
01:10:47,500 --> 01:10:50,700
Force like shaping and 
containing and playing some 

1191
01:10:50,700 --> 01:10:54,600
influence on it, but it's also 
really vague like, what does 

1192
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,500
that actually mean? 
What, what is it doing? 

1193
01:10:57,500 --> 01:11:01,000
I don't know. 
But I kind of think that that 

1194
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:05,900
sort of reveals the hand of 
disco Elysium as a game and is 

1195
01:11:05,900 --> 01:11:08,300
like a narrative piece. 
I think it's suggesting that 

1196
01:11:08,300 --> 01:11:11,500
like no matter what you do or 
who you are, it's kind of 

1197
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:15,000
pointless because it's playing a
part in a bigger picture of 

1198
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:19,600
humanity as part of the cycle. 
That's partly because of itself 

1199
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,100
but also partly because of 
outside forces that we can't 

1200
01:11:22,100 --> 01:11:26,500
comprehend. 
Set a theme that resonates with 

1201
01:11:26,500 --> 01:11:29,400
you or that you picked up the 
Baton in your playthrough Craig.

1202
01:11:29,900 --> 01:11:32,900
Yeah I was thinking about that I
looked at the pale which was one

1203
01:11:32,900 --> 01:11:37,300
thing that you mentioned as 
being almost like the pollution 

1204
01:11:37,300 --> 01:11:38,600
of humanity. 
Right? 

1205
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:43,500
Like that it was growing and 
continuing to like exist because

1206
01:11:43,500 --> 01:11:49,000
Humanity was like, Wrecking 
parts of the continents and 

1207
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:51,900
things of that nature like that 
Humanity being there like is 

1208
01:11:51,900 --> 01:11:56,700
inherently actually not a good 
thing for the planet, but it 

1209
01:11:56,708 --> 01:12:00,800
never sir Planet. 
Oh yeah, we're glad it's not the

1210
01:12:00,808 --> 01:12:02,000
right word, is it? 
Yeah. 

1211
01:12:02,100 --> 01:12:08,300
The that has the this the world 
of Elysium that has seven 

1212
01:12:08,300 --> 01:12:12,800
continents divided by the pale. 
So that however, you want to 

1213
01:12:12,808 --> 01:12:16,300
phrase, it didn't exist before 
the pale. 

1214
01:12:16,900 --> 01:12:18,700
I don't know. 
That's a good question. 

1215
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:22,400
There is something brought up 
somewhere that like, the Hale 

1216
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:28,900
did that stuff, the phasmid and 
things in new things existed, 

1217
01:12:28,900 --> 01:12:32,300
prior to the pale and the pale 
didn't exist until humans 

1218
01:12:32,300 --> 01:12:34,000
existed. 
Interesting. 

1219
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:40,000
So we'll in the nightclub you 
discover that there's a hole up 

1220
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:41,800
near the well. 
I thought it was that also see 

1221
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:42,900
orange. 
Yeah. 

1222
01:12:42,900 --> 01:12:47,500
That which is also a church very
Disco There's a 2 millimeter 

1223
01:12:47,500 --> 01:12:51,300
hole in the world and that's 
said to be a portal to the pale 

1224
01:12:51,900 --> 01:12:56,200
and that is growing. 
As disco takes place in the 

1225
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:58,400
church. 
It's like it seems to thrive on 

1226
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:02,200
information and passion which 
kind of suggests that. 

1227
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:03,700
Yeah. 
The pale is like the result of 

1228
01:13:03,700 --> 01:13:06,000
human thought and like grows and
feeds upon it. 

1229
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,500
Yeah. 
Well this is something kind of 

1230
01:13:09,500 --> 01:13:13,100
looks like the make that Matrix 
for scene. 

1231
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,700
Yes, very disco what was your 
original question it kind of 

1232
01:13:16,700 --> 01:13:21,000
where where did my interaction 
or my thoughts on the point? 

1233
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,000
The game was trying to make. 
Yeah. 

1234
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:28,100
Did I guess I had talked about 
this like the lack of control, 

1235
01:13:28,100 --> 01:13:31,400
being a central theme of the 
game and I was curious, if that 

1236
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,600
was something you picked up on 
or if I was just picking that 

1237
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:39,100
up, no, it to me that I started 
pick that up within the Of our 

1238
01:13:39,100 --> 01:13:42,700
own lived history, right? 
That like the, that people make 

1239
01:13:42,700 --> 01:13:49,300
decisions and set in motion 
systems that perpetrate some 

1240
01:13:49,300 --> 01:13:52,800
sort of like forward momentum. 
And while we may think that 

1241
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:56,200
we're doing something different 
or even my camera, that man, 

1242
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:57,600
that's like standing guard 
After. 

1243
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:00,300
The revolution is ended any 
standing guard over nothing 

1244
01:14:00,300 --> 01:14:06,000
anymore, right? 
That like, there is something 

1245
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:10,300
about going through like the 
Motions of, hey, I'm going to 

1246
01:14:10,300 --> 01:14:15,200
make a difference in this space 
but like, Your single 

1247
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:18,000
contribution doesn't actually 
really matter in the grand 

1248
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:22,200
scheme of things and instead 
it's much more broadly, speaking

1249
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:27,300
about like the world is going to
exist in the people that like 

1250
01:14:27,300 --> 01:14:32,900
perpetrate that are also 
individuals but also broader in 

1251
01:14:32,900 --> 01:14:36,800
ways that you can't fully 
comprehend or push back against 

1252
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:40,400
in any meaningful way. 
And it's just going to continue 

1253
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:43,800
to push things forward in a 
direction and you might be To 

1254
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,700
like alter the course a little 
bit, but eventually it starts to

1255
01:14:46,700 --> 01:14:51,900
cycle back on itself. 
Yeah, I've been examining kind 

1256
01:14:51,900 --> 01:14:55,900
of how if you choose to be 
authoritarian fascist and racist

1257
01:14:55,900 --> 01:14:58,500
in this game, no matter. 
Where did that take you? 

1258
01:14:58,700 --> 01:15:04,100
It's a really good illustration 
of this game doesn't have. 

1259
01:15:05,300 --> 01:15:08,000
And we'll I'm curious if you 
notice this this game doesn't 

1260
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:11,800
really have strong opinions on 
anything you do. 

1261
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:16,500
It's sort of welcomes you with a
strange mixture of Ernest e and 

1262
01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:18,900
cynicism. 
Like I don't think I think it'd 

1263
01:15:18,900 --> 01:15:21,400
be easy for this game to have 
just made fun of everything that

1264
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,400
you do and it doesn't quite fall
into that. 

1265
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:26,400
It's like ironic and detached, 
but it's not to the point where 

1266
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:32,000
it's like, Enable to be Earnest 
and this kind of plays out at 

1267
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,000
the end. 
For example, you can declare in 

1268
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,300
your final like report, you can 
declare I'm a great detective 

1269
01:15:38,300 --> 01:15:43,300
and I'm a huge fascist and that 
doesn't really affect their 

1270
01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:47,900
nomination for your promotion, 
as a cop, like the it now. 

1271
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:52,000
Like and I think that no matter 
what way you play it the game 

1272
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:58,000
kind of treats you as equally. 
Equally valid so that I guess to

1273
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:01,400
put that another way, like, the 
game kind of like uses the same 

1274
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:03,300
tone to refer to you. 
And I think Kim's, great 

1275
01:16:03,300 --> 01:16:06,300
example, of the game being like 
neutral, you can be racist to 

1276
01:16:06,300 --> 01:16:10,100
camera directly and it. 
The game does have ways of 

1277
01:16:10,100 --> 01:16:12,600
chiding. 
You you'll take morale hits for 

1278
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:14,600
your thoughts being frivolous 
and silly. 

1279
01:16:14,900 --> 01:16:17,100
Like the game does have an 
opinion but it's not really 

1280
01:16:17,100 --> 01:16:20,300
interested in like punishing you
or showing you your ideas wrong 

1281
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:24,700
those are morale hits only well 
from what I saw they you only 

1282
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:30,300
Get those hits if they alter 
from your like chosen path, 

1283
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,000
right? 
There's if I got a bunch of 

1284
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,100
bonuses for picking moralism 
options because I was a 

1285
01:16:36,108 --> 01:16:40,200
moralist, I do there's a couple 
scenes where there's like one 

1286
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:42,400
where you're sitting down with 
Kim and having a very open 

1287
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:46,700
conversation and if you talk, if
you keep talking racist at him 

1288
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:50,100
about his like inferior race, 
the game will like doing your 

1289
01:16:50,100 --> 01:16:53,500
morale for it when he says 
something common collected back 

1290
01:16:53,500 --> 01:16:57,300
to you and you like realize he's
right for a second, even if 

1291
01:16:57,300 --> 01:17:02,800
you're like, fully devoted to 
racism, I think that that all 

1292
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:08,700
plays up into this idea, that it
doesn't really like this isn't a

1293
01:17:08,708 --> 01:17:10,900
game that thinks you're going to
make a huge difference in the 

1294
01:17:10,900 --> 01:17:12,300
world. 
And I think that that comes 

1295
01:17:12,300 --> 01:17:16,100
from, I mean, obviously I'm not 
Eastern European hadn't really 

1296
01:17:16,100 --> 01:17:18,500
traveled there. 
So I don't know that much, but I

1297
01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:21,700
think that that does come a bit 
from this Region's perspective 

1298
01:17:21,700 --> 01:17:25,100
on things in general. 
The in the Soviet Bloc, you 

1299
01:17:25,700 --> 01:17:29,200
individualism is not rewarded, 
there's not this belief that one

1300
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:32,700
person can make a difference. 
Matter what way you go, like 

1301
01:17:32,700 --> 01:17:35,600
you've got someone who's an 
absolute raging alcoholic and 

1302
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:38,700
you kind of just treat them with
the same attitude, you treat 

1303
01:17:38,700 --> 01:17:41,400
other people. 
I think that piece of 

1304
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,000
specifically was like the uni 
piece I can either stand out to 

1305
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:45,200
me. 
It was like you're not like a 

1306
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:47,900
super cop or anything like 
you're just kind of a bumbling 

1307
01:17:47,900 --> 01:17:51,500
idiot like yeah if you claim to 
be a super cup the game kind of 

1308
01:17:51,500 --> 01:17:54,600
laughs at you about it like it's
a narcissistic delusion it's 

1309
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:56,100
not. 
You actually being one. 

1310
01:17:56,500 --> 01:17:59,900
Yeah. 
I also want to say this is part 

1311
01:17:59,900 --> 01:18:02,700
of what makes Kim, the freaking 
standout character. 

1312
01:18:02,700 --> 01:18:10,100
This game is his ability to 
support you and like, he'll call

1313
01:18:10,100 --> 01:18:14,300
you on your bullshit but also 
like in front of other people, 

1314
01:18:14,700 --> 01:18:20,100
he makes it seem like everything
you're doing is like extremely 

1315
01:18:20,100 --> 01:18:23,500
calculated. 
He my conversation with the rich

1316
01:18:23,500 --> 01:18:25,800
lady, right? 
He was like, egging me on he's 

1317
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:27,300
like, no, no, you need to be 
more. 

1318
01:18:27,700 --> 01:18:30,000
Wild and crazy. 
Like your normal self in this 

1319
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,600
conversation. 
I was like, yeah. 

1320
01:18:32,900 --> 01:18:34,100
Okay. 
Thanks Kim. 

1321
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:37,700
You just like given me carte 
blanche to pick the wildest 

1322
01:18:37,700 --> 01:18:39,900
craziest options and discover 
Sation it was. 

1323
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:45,200
He's so like yet he's also 
grounded while doing that right 

1324
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:48,600
like you know that he doesn T 
want you to but he's still it's 

1325
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:54,200
just it's fantastic. 
It's like he knows that you the 

1326
01:18:54,200 --> 01:19:00,200
crazy Jamrock Shuffle Detective.
of is the tool that's going to 

1327
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:03,900
be best used to solve this and 
he'll use that tool even though 

1328
01:19:03,900 --> 01:19:07,100
he doesn't, you know, himself 
agree with anything you're 

1329
01:19:07,100 --> 01:19:10,300
particularly saying or doing 
like it's yeah, but he starts 

1330
01:19:10,300 --> 01:19:13,800
game itself is also that way and
the end to it's like as a second

1331
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:17,800
layer of that like you can be 
the game will let you walk all 

1332
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,900
the way to the end and it's it's
not even going to hang you for 

1333
01:19:20,900 --> 01:19:24,500
it. 
It's just like wow, you really 

1334
01:19:24,500 --> 01:19:26,600
did say one commits that. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1335
01:19:27,300 --> 01:19:30,400
Can you describe a Vision Quest 
or describe your vision quest? 

1336
01:19:30,700 --> 01:19:32,500
Why didn't have one? 
Because I didn't play The Final 

1337
01:19:32,500 --> 01:19:33,800
Cut. 
Oh yeah. 

1338
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:36,700
There are play the final quote. 
I did at the beginning, but 

1339
01:19:36,700 --> 01:19:40,000
didn't get very far and they're 
hard to get to, they they're 

1340
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:43,500
actually, they take, they added 
an additional level of skill, 

1341
01:19:43,500 --> 01:19:45,800
check to get into them higher 
than anything that was in the 

1342
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:48,600
base game. 
I think it's Godly instead of 

1343
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:55,000
legendary so I did see a at 
least one Godly skill check In 

1344
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:57,500
the non Final Cut. 
There's no, you know, you'll 

1345
01:19:57,500 --> 01:20:01,300
have like, Capo types and you 
have, like, moral like your 

1346
01:20:01,300 --> 01:20:04,600
political alignment, the 
political alignment version was 

1347
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:07,100
just not really there. 
You still have the same kind of 

1348
01:20:07,100 --> 01:20:10,100
commentary but it wasn't quite 
as clear and it didn't funnel 

1349
01:20:10,100 --> 01:20:12,100
you into Quest paths, like it 
does now. 

1350
01:20:13,700 --> 01:20:15,800
So you could still be like a 
moralist order. 

1351
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:19,500
Well, Lee shit I did not know. 
Sorry. 

1352
01:20:19,900 --> 01:20:20,400
Yeah. 
Go ahead. 

1353
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:23,500
What's up? 
Tell us I did one of these 

1354
01:20:23,500 --> 01:20:24,400
Quest. 
Tell us about this. 

1355
01:20:24,700 --> 01:20:28,700
Is how I super curious in a 
different end game. 

1356
01:20:29,100 --> 01:20:30,400
Yeah. 
How do you set it up? 

1357
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:34,200
And what this, how I ended up in
an alternate ending and like 

1358
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:36,600
finishing the game and then 
being and telling you? 

1359
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:38,800
I was like, oh, I wrote away on 
an Airship and you're like the 

1360
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,000
fuck you. 
Oh yeah, I forgot that at all. 

1361
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:42,700
So what the fuck? 
Okay, go ahead. 

1362
01:20:42,700 --> 01:20:44,000
Tell us about it. 
Please please. 

1363
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:48,000
Yeah, so I didn't realize that 
this was, it doesn't present 

1364
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:50,500
itself to someone that has, 
never played the original base 

1365
01:20:50,500 --> 01:20:52,700
game, like, here's something 
different, right? 

1366
01:20:52,700 --> 01:20:53,900
Like here's like a different 
thing. 

1367
01:20:53,900 --> 01:20:59,400
It just came Up through like 
ultra-liberal. 

1368
01:21:00,100 --> 01:21:04,400
I was a moralist more like 
centralist. 

1369
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:08,700
So it I think it was like day 
for. 

1370
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:10,000
There's something that happens 
in. 

1371
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:13,500
Like you go to sleep and you can
start to pursue like a thought 

1372
01:21:13,500 --> 01:21:18,700
of centroid, like centrism and 
specifically. 

1373
01:21:18,700 --> 01:21:21,200
So I'm looking at page Kingdom 
of Consciousness, how we got to 

1374
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:24,000
moralism in the first place, and
I got that one because there's a

1375
01:21:24,008 --> 01:21:26,500
sporting proposition. 
Project opioid receptor. 

1376
01:21:26,500 --> 01:21:29,800
Antagonist. 
Does that sound familiar does 

1377
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,200
sound Vaguely Familiar. 
So what ends up happening is 

1378
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:34,000
that this is related to the 2. 
Mm. 

1379
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:37,600
Like hole in the church. 
And if you go through the quest 

1380
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:43,000
there within the church to help 
out There's like a lady that 

1381
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:45,400
you're helping out in the church
that she's like trying to get 

1382
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:49,800
more information and trying to 
figure out like more data about 

1383
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:54,300
what's happening here and she 
wants to contact someone. 

1384
01:21:54,500 --> 01:21:56,400
Oh man I got I wish I remembered
this better. 

1385
01:21:57,300 --> 01:22:01,800
You're trying to contact someone
to share some sort of like 

1386
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:04,500
responsibilities that you have 
and you have to go through like 

1387
01:22:04,500 --> 01:22:08,900
a bunch of different steps here 
to be able to like contact this 

1388
01:22:08,900 --> 01:22:12,400
overall government agency. 
I think is More or less what it 

1389
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:13,800
is. 
And many of you have been just 

1390
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,000
like, overall, what's happening 
at the harbor? 

1391
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:20,100
And like your responsibility is 
to tell a committee and they can

1392
01:22:20,100 --> 01:22:23,700
decide what to do about it. 
And so you go through, like a 

1393
01:22:23,700 --> 01:22:28,900
whole bunch of convoluted tasks 
to boost your radio. 

1394
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:34,800
Like antenna and being able to 
contact them which requires you 

1395
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:38,400
to like go back to the church 
and then set up tables. 

1396
01:22:38,700 --> 01:22:42,400
All the way from the church 
across the island to like the 

1397
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:44,800
statue that's in the middle of 
all the trucks that you see 

1398
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:46,600
early on. 
Like the, you know, my 

1399
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:48,500
encyclopedia helped explain that
thing. 

1400
01:22:48,500 --> 01:22:49,300
That's pretty cool. 
Yeah. 

1401
01:22:49,900 --> 01:22:53,500
That's like broken apart and 
like your you essentially turn 

1402
01:22:53,500 --> 01:22:57,000
that into a giant radio 
transceiver and then you've got 

1403
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:02,000
slime on top of it as Harry. 
You and like, are contacting. 

1404
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:09,000
The committee to tell them the 
responsibility here and if you 

1405
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,100
contact the Airship successful 
and get them to believe you, 

1406
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:18,000
like they will come and retrieve
Harry and the game ends like so 

1407
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:20,000
you just like float away on an 
Airship. 

1408
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,600
Like it like what was a ladder? 
And like, you climb up the 

1409
01:23:22,608 --> 01:23:27,400
ladder and the game's over and I
was like, like mid-game yeah. 

1410
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:29,500
This is like, probably, like day
for it. 

1411
01:23:29,900 --> 01:23:33,300
Bad amazing. 
Couple days for you to do all. 

1412
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:36,700
The random like Aaron's that it 
has you do it definitely. 

1413
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,700
I was just curious. 
I was like, what is this thing? 

1414
01:23:40,700 --> 01:23:43,900
And so I went through and like, 
was scaling things up 

1415
01:23:43,900 --> 01:23:46,400
specifically, so I could pass 
these checks, cause I thought it

1416
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:49,200
was just part of mainlining the 
game. 

1417
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:54,100
And then when I went away on the
Airship and like, the credit 

1418
01:23:54,100 --> 01:23:58,700
started to play, I was like, I 
am entirely unresolved with what

1419
01:23:58,700 --> 01:24:00,800
the fuck that's happening in 
this world. 

1420
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:03,200
Hmm. 
I was like, there's no I hadn't 

1421
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:05,400
solved the murder. 
The Hardy Boys like nothing's 

1422
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:07,000
happened. 
There was like what the fuck has

1423
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,100
happened? 
Phenomenal, two questions. 

1424
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:14,600
One is now I'm really curious 
when you played this game. 

1425
01:24:16,300 --> 01:24:21,700
June of 20, 20 20, so fairly 
recently posted the news. 

1426
01:24:23,500 --> 01:24:27,400
It was the final cut on, Cut 
PlayStation, I played it on PS 

1427
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:29,800
5, full voice acting all that 
type of stuff. 

1428
01:24:30,100 --> 01:24:32,600
So if that happened, and that 
was a political Vision. 

1429
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:34,800
Quest, like how did that relate 
to your politics? 

1430
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,800
Did that end? 
It was just all the way up to 

1431
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:39,200
it. 
That was the Vision Quest. 

1432
01:24:39,500 --> 01:24:42,000
Like, where did it, did it end 
with the final scene like that 

1433
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:44,800
somehow like reinforced what 
political decisions you've made?

1434
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:50,900
I mean it mainly was like hey 
you don't believe in anything so

1435
01:24:51,300 --> 01:24:54,900
you're just gonna like give over
responsibility to the committee 

1436
01:24:54,900 --> 01:24:58,000
to deal with it and you just 
it's gone from your 

1437
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:01,000
responsibility to the world. 
That's a pretty direct 

1438
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:02,800
statement. 
The game is making, isn't it? 

1439
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:08,200
Yeah and it's like hard credits.
It's not like oh yeah you get to

1440
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:11,400
come back in. 
Like I ended up reloading a save

1441
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:15,400
going and intentionally failing 
the check so I couldn't So I 

1442
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:17,800
didn't escape and then 
continuing on with the rest of 

1443
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:21,400
the game introduced and moralism
which is also the path that I 

1444
01:25:21,407 --> 01:25:30,900
was going down is both. 
It's it's both extremely like 

1445
01:25:30,900 --> 01:25:35,100
the most logical, reasonable 
choice of going, what's going 

1446
01:25:35,100 --> 01:25:39,100
on. 
But also the most like, Asshole 

1447
01:25:39,100 --> 01:25:46,200
ish no responsibility choice at 
the same time like was like 

1448
01:25:46,300 --> 01:25:51,100
you're just like, yeah. 
You're just like I'm interested 

1449
01:25:51,100 --> 01:25:53,600
in hearing what all these people
are saying but also I don't want

1450
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:57,700
to be a communist hard. 
I don't want to go super far the

1451
01:25:57,700 --> 01:26:00,000
other direction. 
And I think I mean I guess it's 

1452
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,800
a pretty clear say like if you 
stand in the middle you're just 

1453
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:04,300
going to get pushed around by 
someone else. 

1454
01:26:04,300 --> 01:26:06,800
Anyways, so you should probably 
take a stance somewhere. 

1455
01:26:06,900 --> 01:26:10,500
There's one If you have it 
that's like a militant 

1456
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:17,400
insistence on nothing changing. 
It felt really in our world cup 

1457
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:20,000
politics. 
Very conservative, right. 

1458
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:22,000
Everything's better. 
The way it used to be. 

1459
01:26:23,300 --> 01:26:26,200
Yeah, I just. 
Well, conserved also made me 

1460
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:28,500
feel that their change. 
They want things to change 

1461
01:26:28,900 --> 01:26:33,400
backwards right in this region 
of are like, human world like 

1462
01:26:34,500 --> 01:26:38,000
when political movements like 
move over you like tithe. 

1463
01:26:38,100 --> 01:26:45,600
Adds to, to claim to be neutral 
and to like but I mean to me and

1464
01:26:45,700 --> 01:26:48,100
helped me understand if I'm 
wrong where I'm wrong, I guess. 

1465
01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:50,800
But that's kind of what moralism
felt like to me. 

1466
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:54,600
Like we have decided, what our 
status quo is whether or not 

1467
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:59,500
that's you know, who knows what 
who that status quo was good 

1468
01:26:59,500 --> 01:27:02,500
for. 
But we are now all of a sudden 

1469
01:27:02,500 --> 01:27:09,200
like militant in are insistent 
that whatever that Quo was is 

1470
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:16,700
the thing that has to be the new
status quo and like there's a it

1471
01:27:16,700 --> 01:27:19,800
says, in the, in the moralism 
and one point it's like we 

1472
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:21,800
believe that change should 
happen. 

1473
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:27,200
Very, very, very slowly. 
We should take our time in 

1474
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:31,300
changing as like, yeah, I don't 
know that it kind of felt like 

1475
01:27:31,308 --> 01:27:37,200
to me what our modern 
conservatism feels like yeah. 

1476
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:40,900
And It's weird that I feel 
really weird that I got to. 

1477
01:27:40,900 --> 01:27:44,500
That was a point of view. 
But yeah, it felt like the right

1478
01:27:44,500 --> 01:27:46,500
one for me in the context of 
this game. 

1479
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:54,000
I think the game is laughing at 
like, even though the choices 

1480
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:58,900
you make to end up, moralist are
like, rational, I think the game

1481
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:02,200
frames it, as you're not 
choosing a more interesting 

1482
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:04,200
path. 
I said earlier that, I think the

1483
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:07,600
game accepts all outcomes but I 
think that is the one that it 

1484
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:12,100
really like looks down upon And 
it's interesting to think of 

1485
01:28:12,100 --> 01:28:18,300
what in the human world that's 
commenting on politics in parts 

1486
01:28:18,300 --> 01:28:23,100
of the world that aren't the 
West are very different and it's

1487
01:28:23,100 --> 01:28:25,400
interesting seeing what's going 
on with Russia and Ukraine, 

1488
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:27,100
right now is a little example, 
right? 

1489
01:28:27,100 --> 01:28:31,300
Like it's not normal for people 
to have strong political 

1490
01:28:31,300 --> 01:28:34,300
opinions, because most people 
don't really feel like politics 

1491
01:28:34,300 --> 01:28:36,500
is one in their realm of 
control. 

1492
01:28:36,900 --> 01:28:38,500
Politics is something that 
happens. 

1493
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,200
And it happens to you and it 
happens to your countrymen. 

1494
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:46,400
So the and I feel like this game
kind of has that lens. 

1495
01:28:47,500 --> 01:28:50,600
But this game also like wants 
you to believe in something, 

1496
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:53,600
which is kind of interesting 
because that sort of seems 

1497
01:28:53,700 --> 01:28:55,900
different than what I know of 
that region. 

1498
01:28:56,500 --> 01:28:59,600
Maybe every person in Russia has
like a rich interior political 

1499
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:03,600
theology about what should be, 
but it's my understanding that 

1500
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:08,100
culturally, what it's more like 
is that people just shake their 

1501
01:29:08,100 --> 01:29:11,400
head at what happens and they 
might wish for something better,

1502
01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:13,000
but that's what they think 
they've got. 

1503
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:18,800
Yeah, and I'm interested in how 
that kind of, like the moralist 

1504
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:22,600
in this game is kind of the 
likes the silent rational, but 

1505
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,500
the non revolutionary, right? 
Like you're not pushing towards 

1506
01:29:25,500 --> 01:29:28,500
any major change. 
You're advocating kind of a 

1507
01:29:28,700 --> 01:29:32,400
common sense approach, right? 
Yeah, you're the one kind of 

1508
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:36,800
constantly thinking about it and
just saying like let's not go 

1509
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:39,200
extreme in either direction. 
They're like you're not going to

1510
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:42,100
get anything fucking done. 
And yeah it's interesting how in

1511
01:29:42,100 --> 01:29:44,700
the American context where 
things are good and politics are

1512
01:29:44,700 --> 01:29:47,800
fine, like saying I don't want 
anything to change, presents 

1513
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,600
conservative. 
But in the region where these 

1514
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:55,500
people are from, like, 
Advocating, the status quo is 

1515
01:29:55,500 --> 01:29:57,500
tantamount to something quite 
different. 

1516
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:01,000
I mean, maybe it's part of like 
them trying to push me away from

1517
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:07,400
moralism, but they make it sound
like a militant choice to be 

1518
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:11,700
neutral. 
Like you will attack anybody who

1519
01:30:11,700 --> 01:30:16,100
chooses to not maintain the 
status quo and maybe that's 

1520
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:18,300
something from their live 
reality. 

1521
01:30:18,300 --> 01:30:20,000
That's just isn't relevant to 
us. 

1522
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:24,000
You mentioned something as 
really interesting there though 

1523
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,100
that I hadn't. 
I don't know if I consciously 

1524
01:30:27,100 --> 01:30:30,700
thought about witches. 
By choosing them more or less 

1525
01:30:30,700 --> 01:30:34,000
route and Chang, like, I want to
maintain the status quo, like, 

1526
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:37,500
I'm thinking about, I want to 
maintain the status quo from 

1527
01:30:37,500 --> 01:30:40,800
like a white cisgender male 
perspective, right? 

1528
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:45,500
Which within this world that I 
was role playing within right, 

1529
01:30:45,500 --> 01:30:48,800
like, maintain the status quo, 
fucking sucks. 

1530
01:30:48,900 --> 01:30:51,300
Like why would I want to 
maintain that and yet? 

1531
01:30:51,300 --> 01:30:53,900
I continually made choices 
because when I was looking at 

1532
01:30:53,907 --> 01:30:56,300
the other ones they were like oh
these are extreme thoughts. 

1533
01:30:56,300 --> 01:30:58,400
Right. 
But in actuality, they might 

1534
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:02,400
have been pushing more towards 
equality, or towards things that

1535
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:05,400
I actually do have a stronger 
alignment with, you know, 

1536
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:08,800
personally and what I think like
Harry should be fighting for 

1537
01:31:10,300 --> 01:31:12,600
well, imagine yourself in a 
situation like the Russian 

1538
01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:15,800
Revolution, right? 
If there's a bunch of ideologies

1539
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:19,600
being thrown around, you can 
say, I like the current order, 

1540
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:23,700
but I'd like it to change a 
little bit, but when the Russian

1541
01:31:23,700 --> 01:31:29,700
Revolution is in the air saying 
that is sort of folly. 

1542
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:33,100
Especially in the view of what's
going to happen, right? 

1543
01:31:33,100 --> 01:31:34,800
I guess in that moment, you 
don't know that. 

1544
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:38,100
But when Revolutions in the air 
or when revolutions, the only 

1545
01:31:38,100 --> 01:31:41,000
thing that can make meaningful 
change, you are kind of a coward

1546
01:31:41,000 --> 01:31:44,400
to say like that we can make 
slow change will slow change. 

1547
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:48,300
Doesn't happen here like only 
Revolution happens. 

1548
01:31:49,300 --> 01:31:51,300
And that's interesting, that's 
not something we have experience

1549
01:31:51,300 --> 01:31:53,300
with. 
That's not how we think, even in

1550
01:31:53,300 --> 01:31:55,400
a generation of people that 
wants Revolution. 

1551
01:31:56,900 --> 01:31:59,100
Although even within the same 
when they're like a revolution 

1552
01:31:59,100 --> 01:32:02,000
is failed. 
There's kind of something means 

1553
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:05,100
if he said there, right? 
That's like this thing's like 

1554
01:32:05,100 --> 01:32:07,100
been going on for three hundred 
years in like on. 

1555
01:32:09,100 --> 01:32:12,400
In the way, it will add almost 
Presley change cycle, fits very 

1556
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:16,100
well with this, like, Western 
American ideology, right? 

1557
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:20,100
If you just vote, things aren't 
going to change a whole bunch, 

1558
01:32:20,100 --> 01:32:23,700
but, you know, eventually maybe 
we'll get enough people that we 

1559
01:32:23,700 --> 01:32:27,400
can get 2% more back from our 
taxes, right? 

1560
01:32:27,700 --> 01:32:33,100
Like yeah, we want just things. 
We feel comfortable in our 

1561
01:32:33,100 --> 01:32:38,600
system and if we just like push 
on our system enough Will again 

1562
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:42,300
ventually get a change rather 
than you know something a lot 

1563
01:32:42,300 --> 01:32:45,900
more radical and our goal. 
Yeah. 

1564
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:50,900
Yeah, I guess just your comments
made me think about like what 

1565
01:32:50,900 --> 01:32:53,400
you're saying, makes a lot of 
sense from our Viewpoint, 

1566
01:32:53,500 --> 01:32:57,200
culturally and politically, but 
I don't think this game is 

1567
01:32:57,200 --> 01:32:59,000
authors come from that 
background. 

1568
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:02,000
And neither does this game like 
it out as its presented? 

1569
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:03,800
You don't, we shouldn't have to 
know about the author's 

1570
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:05,200
background, right? 
That's a whole can of worms. 

1571
01:33:05,200 --> 01:33:09,400
But like, in this, World, if 
you're advocating for things to 

1572
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:13,300
change slowly. 
You probably don't have a full 

1573
01:33:13,300 --> 01:33:16,900
scope of what the world is yet. 
Because it's not fair because 

1574
01:33:16,900 --> 01:33:19,500
you're amnesiac, and you just 
yeah. 

1575
01:33:19,900 --> 01:33:21,200
What. 
Yeah, what's happening? 

1576
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:25,600
Yeah, but yeah, no, I think that
as a message, I think that that 

1577
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:30,400
is really powerful, right? 
You're the game telling me, hey,

1578
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:33,900
your tendency to like think that
everything is good and to 

1579
01:33:33,907 --> 01:33:38,200
continue to try and act in a way
that everything is good and 

1580
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:39,900
should continue to being the way
it is. 

1581
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:44,100
Doesn't make sense. 
If you haven't taken a a full 

1582
01:33:44,100 --> 01:33:46,200
accounting of what the world is,
right? 

1583
01:33:47,600 --> 01:33:53,100
Yeah, absolutely. 
And I think that's cool. 

1584
01:33:53,700 --> 01:33:56,000
You know, one thing that's funny
about the political Vision 

1585
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:59,600
quests is that the Communist end
of The Vision? 

1586
01:33:59,600 --> 01:34:02,900
Quest is a bunch of guys, in a 
laboratory experimenting with 

1587
01:34:02,900 --> 01:34:05,300
crops. 
And they find that the one, the 

1588
01:34:05,300 --> 01:34:10,400
crops with the strongest 
ideology grow the fastest and 

1589
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:20,100
like, like, I can't like decide 
if that's like really funny like

1590
01:34:20,100 --> 01:34:25,200
I think like the game like in 
that ending alone, the game 

1591
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:28,800
acknowledges that ideology makes
a difference but it also 

1592
01:34:28,800 --> 01:34:33,200
completely minifies like, what 
difference that would make it's 

1593
01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:36,900
laughing at communism while also
like giving it some credit. 

1594
01:34:37,900 --> 01:34:40,700
It's it's just it's like really 
funny. 

1595
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,400
That's that is amazing. 
I would be curious to know what 

1596
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:48,200
all of the other Vision Quest 
are I will do, they tell me 

1597
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:50,300
everything. 
I'm curious and I was going to 

1598
01:34:50,300 --> 01:34:52,000
kind of ask this of both of you 
guys. 

1599
01:34:52,700 --> 01:34:54,800
You keep calling it a Vision 
Quest. 

1600
01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:59,900
But what Craig described in 
sounds like what's that phrase 

1601
01:34:59,900 --> 01:35:02,500
implies? 
So what are we talking about? 

1602
01:35:02,500 --> 01:35:04,000
Called a vision quest in the 
game. 

1603
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:06,700
That's only what the game's 
marketing for the patch used to 

1604
01:35:06,700 --> 01:35:10,000
describe them. 
Yeah, and it does start off it. 

1605
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:12,800
Like I believe it. 
It shows up as a vision while 

1606
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:17,900
you're asleep. 
So I think it's like a thought 

1607
01:35:17,900 --> 01:35:19,900
pattern that shows up while 
you're asleep and you can choose

1608
01:35:19,900 --> 01:35:23,200
to pursue it. 
So I had one dream that was 

1609
01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:27,100
weird, but I also had one point 
where I was looking at my book 

1610
01:35:27,400 --> 01:35:31,800
and passed out, and as I was 
passed out, it just said disko 

1611
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:33,800
Elysium. 
And there were some options that

1612
01:35:33,800 --> 01:35:36,900
I are some spots on the Disco 
Elysium logo logo. 

1613
01:35:36,900 --> 01:35:39,600
That I could have clicked didn't
want a viking, any of them. 

1614
01:35:40,200 --> 01:35:41,000
All right. 
Wow. 

1615
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:42,800
You guys, neither of you guys 
saw this, okay? 

1616
01:35:42,900 --> 01:35:46,500
Know what? 
It's are also you fell asleep. 

1617
01:35:46,500 --> 01:35:50,700
Reading the wait, what? 
There was some concept which was

1618
01:35:50,700 --> 01:35:53,400
so novel. 
That, as I was reading it, I 

1619
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:57,800
fell asleep or, you know, like 
passed out and Kim was like, 

1620
01:35:57,800 --> 01:35:58,800
whoa, what's going on? 
You. 

1621
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:02,500
Okay, I shouldn't shouldn't have
been thinking about these wild 

1622
01:36:02,500 --> 01:36:06,400
thoughts. 
Yeah, I feel bad that I can 

1623
01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:08,600
actually click anything on the 
disk Elysium logo. 

1624
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:12,500
I thought felt like I died. 
Yeah, I could see why that's 

1625
01:36:12,500 --> 01:36:14,400
really funny. 
Yeah, it was weird. 

1626
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:17,200
And I for a second, I thought 
that maybe something like that 

1627
01:36:17,200 --> 01:36:20,200
was what a Vision Quest was, 
that's amazing. 

1628
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:22,300
Sounds like you guys didn't see 
that sense. 

1629
01:36:22,300 --> 01:36:23,300
Nope? 
Yeah, no. 

1630
01:36:23,300 --> 01:36:26,600
It's didn't know that, but at 
far more intense on them. 

1631
01:36:28,300 --> 01:36:30,400
Can I ask you another question? 
Just normal world view 

1632
01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:33,900
perspective. 
Yeah, because my experience with

1633
01:36:33,900 --> 01:36:39,500
Eastern European like content 
movies, books media like is not 

1634
01:36:39,500 --> 01:36:42,900
broad, right? 
So, this is almost an entry 

1635
01:36:42,900 --> 01:36:46,200
point, which feels like a deep 
entry point to stuff into food. 

1636
01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:49,200
Like here, here's hundreds of 
thousands of words and Concepts 

1637
01:36:49,200 --> 01:36:53,000
and ideas presented from this 
frame of reference, but there is

1638
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:56,500
something else like The Witcher 
3 exist, right? 

1639
01:36:56,800 --> 01:37:00,400
Who's about to ask the same? 
Of course good and which one of 

1640
01:37:00,400 --> 01:37:02,300
us will have you played it to 
completion? 

1641
01:37:03,300 --> 01:37:06,300
I haven't even touched it. 
I am here for fucking a Craig 

1642
01:37:06,300 --> 01:37:08,500
seminar. 
On him, not even read tuts. 

1643
01:37:08,500 --> 01:37:12,400
Watch the Netflix series. 
What I've also watched that you 

1644
01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:15,600
haven't watch some handsome 
gamer boy and said okay with our

1645
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,600
mister mister Cavill, yes, I 
didn't get any of this from The 

1646
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:23,700
Witcher 3 though. 
Like not figured out our next 

1647
01:37:23,700 --> 01:37:26,400
game. 
I'm not playing it now. 

1648
01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:31,800
Then I was inside the, the 
next-gen version comes out in 

1649
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:37,700
December, but no, I think some 
of this stuff does come up but 

1650
01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:39,200
The Witcher 3 seems, I don't 
know. 

1651
01:37:39,208 --> 01:37:41,000
It just seems like a plays in a 
safer space. 

1652
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:46,300
There's like, there's it's much 
more of really, Black and Whites

1653
01:37:46,300 --> 01:37:50,700
and my opinion and maybe I 
missed dramatic things. 

1654
01:37:50,700 --> 01:37:52,100
I don't know, like it's been 
years. 

1655
01:37:52,700 --> 01:37:57,500
It also There's a I didn't play 
the close to be a really good 

1656
01:37:57,500 --> 01:38:03,900
deal, see about a vampire lord 
or a vampire manner, that would 

1657
01:38:03,900 --> 01:38:06,800
have supposed to be good. 
I might employ that imply blood 

1658
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:11,000
and wine. 
I'm quite surprised to hear 

1659
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:13,300
this. 
I thought The Witcher was known 

1660
01:38:13,300 --> 01:38:20,200
for being more less optimistic, 
more Grim, more nuanced. 

1661
01:38:20,500 --> 01:38:24,500
I definitely think that there's 
those pieces of the World that 

1662
01:38:24,500 --> 01:38:28,700
exist within a butt. 
Yeah, so yeah. 

1663
01:38:28,700 --> 01:38:32,900
So I think from like perspective
on that outcome of the world, it

1664
01:38:32,900 --> 01:38:36,500
might have a little bit more of 
that bent to it, but it also 

1665
01:38:36,500 --> 01:38:39,200
plays with like, more of like, 
the folklore of the world, 

1666
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:40,600
right? 
So there's like kind of inherent

1667
01:38:40,600 --> 01:38:43,200
playfulness that occurs in some 
of the side quests and things of

1668
01:38:43,208 --> 01:38:45,600
that nature. 
And there's like, people's more 

1669
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:48,000
human scale problems. 
That you're going in and like, 

1670
01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:51,000
helping interact with and 
there's things of that nature 

1671
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:54,500
occurring. 
But when you're looking at like 

1672
01:38:54,500 --> 01:38:59,300
the political like, Machinations
that are overseeing or 

1673
01:38:59,300 --> 01:39:05,100
overarching within that world 
there's like you know, Kingdoms 

1674
01:39:05,100 --> 01:39:08,400
At War. 
It just feels very standard 

1675
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:11,400
within that media, right? 
It doesn't feel like hey I'm 

1676
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:14,400
going to challenge you on what 
your definition of like 

1677
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:16,800
feudalism is like there's a lot 
of income. 

1678
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:19,100
I don't maybe, you haven't 
played this in six months and 

1679
01:39:19,100 --> 01:39:21,600
you forgotten. 
There's a lot of comedy in this 

1680
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:26,800
game like, well, for any of it 
to bring it up course. 

1681
01:39:27,100 --> 01:39:31,000
But pom will hold on. 
So, I'm going to intrude with a 

1682
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:33,900
like, a global cultural human 
scale. 

1683
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:37,500
This does not. 
Yes, the The Witcher also is 

1684
01:39:37,500 --> 01:39:44,300
from Poland, which is, I mean, 
I'm gonna get in trouble for 

1685
01:39:44,300 --> 01:39:46,400
saying that it's this way 
because it's Poland, right? 

1686
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:48,400
But Poland was never a part of 
the USSR. 

1687
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:51,800
Poland is a very rich cultural 
and imperial history. 

1688
01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:55,700
Like Poland was an Empire 
pulling is a much stronger self 

1689
01:39:55,700 --> 01:39:58,300
concept of identity. 
So, it would make sense that, 

1690
01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:00,700
obviously, you can't say, 
because it's polish, we would 

1691
01:40:00,700 --> 01:40:02,600
expect these things, but I'm 
going to basically say that. 

1692
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:07,000
Anyway, like pulling is a very 
rich like folklore, tradition, 

1693
01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:09,600
so, it makes sense that, if a 
Polish Game were to happen, it 

1694
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:12,100
would be playing in those spaces
where as an Estonian game 

1695
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:19,900
doesn't like Estonia has its own
history obviously, but it its 

1696
01:40:19,900 --> 01:40:23,700
history is of being conquested 
in Empire did and things like 

1697
01:40:23,700 --> 01:40:28,100
that. 
That's where like the and 

1698
01:40:28,100 --> 01:40:31,500
authorial intent of the Witcher 
feels like it comes from a place

1699
01:40:31,500 --> 01:40:34,200
of power. 
The authorial intent of disco 

1700
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:35,800
Lee's. 
Yes, it feels like it comes from

1701
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:38,600
a place of being subjected, 
that's interesting. 

1702
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:41,800
Those things feel very different
in how they presented their 

1703
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:44,200
worldviews, to me, that's 
interesting and really 

1704
01:40:44,500 --> 01:40:47,700
interesting. 
Yeah, and it's also interesting,

1705
01:40:48,800 --> 01:40:53,700
it might be The interesting and 
yeah, I really made an Ellis 

1706
01:40:53,700 --> 01:40:55,000
Wyatt. 
There's yeah. 

1707
01:40:56,300 --> 01:41:00,000
Hi Abby's just interesting you 
guys that's interesting 

1708
01:41:00,700 --> 01:41:03,700
fascinating because we're 
Americans like what the fuck 

1709
01:41:03,700 --> 01:41:06,000
would it be like to have a 
national self concept? 

1710
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:12,900
That's not one of being the dick
like we are generation might be 

1711
01:41:12,900 --> 01:41:16,000
self-conscious about that but we
still have no insecurities and 

1712
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:19,700
there's no outside forces that 
are really notable that move 

1713
01:41:19,700 --> 01:41:23,700
across us like tides of course, 
there's our language and our 

1714
01:41:23,700 --> 01:41:27,600
money is still dominant which 
And our culture like it? 

1715
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:32,900
Yeah, yeah. 
A I love media from places. 

1716
01:41:33,600 --> 01:41:37,700
It's so alien and weird to read 
media and be in a world. 

1717
01:41:37,700 --> 01:41:41,400
That's about being subjected to 
outside forces and this game I 

1718
01:41:41,400 --> 01:41:46,200
think I think that that's true 
for the majority. 

1719
01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:50,800
There are starting to be cases 
people. 

1720
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:54,900
You know, there are American 
perspectives that are not that. 

1721
01:41:55,700 --> 01:41:59,400
Yes. 
Oh, I was like their behalf of 

1722
01:41:59,400 --> 01:42:02,000
America. 
Well, not half, but large 

1723
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:06,300
portion of America is not in 
power, that's been expressed and

1724
01:42:06,300 --> 01:42:11,100
subjugate its history. 
But that's not, who's making the

1725
01:42:11,200 --> 01:42:15,600
media Mafia 3, the whole? 
Well, yes. 

1726
01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:18,300
Yeah, anyway, there's a bunch 
of. 

1727
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:20,400
There are sweet starting 
tomorrow. 

1728
01:42:20,600 --> 01:42:24,200
Every I have also that is like, 
they just take the understand 

1729
01:42:24,200 --> 01:42:27,700
the, yeah, a lot of those people
do have tremendous influence on 

1730
01:42:27,700 --> 01:42:30,700
the media in the form of Music, 
at the very least. 

1731
01:42:31,700 --> 01:42:36,000
Sure, but fair point Fair Point,
that's not to say they're not 

1732
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:39,300
oppressed but it's interesting 
how their voices are still heard

1733
01:42:39,300 --> 01:42:45,200
and ways that then get anyway. 
I am disappointed to hear that. 

1734
01:42:45,200 --> 01:42:50,500
The Witcher isn't a very similar
game that is not disappointed. 

1735
01:42:50,500 --> 01:42:54,500
It's just not what I thought 
that game was praised for as 

1736
01:42:54,500 --> 01:42:58,300
being so different. 
I mean, you can also solve any 

1737
01:42:58,300 --> 01:43:01,300
of your problems with violence 
in The Witcher. 

1738
01:43:01,900 --> 01:43:03,000
No. 
Yeah. 

1739
01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:05,200
That is the first thing help 
that itself across a cell phone 

1740
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:07,000
tower. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1741
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:11,100
It's like the, the gameplay 
there overlaps with the story 

1742
01:43:11,100 --> 01:43:19,200
mechanics in such concrete ways.
yeah, interesting around, I 

1743
01:43:19,208 --> 01:43:23,100
think part of it is Again, I 
really wish that I had played 

1744
01:43:23,100 --> 01:43:24,600
them closer together The 
Witcher. 

1745
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:28,500
It does go into interesting 
spaces, right? 

1746
01:43:28,500 --> 01:43:32,000
And has interesting 
conversations about who is in 

1747
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:35,800
power and things of that nature.
But again, it gets back into, 

1748
01:43:35,800 --> 01:43:39,500
like, who should run the 
kingdom, not, should the kingdom

1749
01:43:39,500 --> 01:43:43,300
exist, right? 
I think people praise that it 

1750
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,500
shows darkness in a way that our
media off, it does not. 

1751
01:43:46,500 --> 01:43:51,600
That's, that's fair. 
I got some big picture, quick 

1752
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:53,300
hits for you. 
These are Big thoughts, but I 

1753
01:43:53,300 --> 01:43:57,300
think will knock them out 
quicker, whoever cursed the 

1754
01:43:57,300 --> 01:44:01,300
podcast by bringing up Tolstoy 
and his opinions on Park. 

1755
01:44:01,300 --> 01:44:05,900
Last time has graced themselves 
with a recurring segment, which 

1756
01:44:05,900 --> 01:44:08,400
is in Tolstoy. 
Is definition of art. 

1757
01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:11,700
It's only art. 
If it's like a pure feeling 

1758
01:44:11,700 --> 01:44:15,100
conveyed by a Creator, such that
any audience would understand. 

1759
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:21,800
And I wanted to ask, if art is a
representation of a feeling, 

1760
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:26,100
what feeling would this be? 
Despair. 

1761
01:44:27,700 --> 01:44:29,200
Despair. 
Is that reasonable? 

1762
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:32,900
Yeah. 
Hopelessness. 

1763
01:44:35,700 --> 01:44:40,800
I think it's the preservation of
humanity under like, Under 

1764
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:45,500
outside forces. 
Failed Revolution, State 

1765
01:44:45,500 --> 01:44:48,800
structures, around you economic 
forces that are way above you 

1766
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:56,000
and this like Cryptid thing, 
controlling humankind Maybe. 

1767
01:44:57,900 --> 01:45:01,800
I want to read from the game. 
Is a point where you say, it 

1768
01:45:01,800 --> 01:45:02,600
does. 
Yes. 

1769
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:10,800
But what is art and conceptual? 
Conceptualization Pops in with 

1770
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:15,100
excellent question. 
Art is a diverse range of visual

1771
01:45:15,100 --> 01:45:17,400
literary, auditory and 
performative. 

1772
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:20,500
Creativity is an expression of 
an imagination and Technical 

1773
01:45:20,500 --> 01:45:22,900
skill. 
Additionally, it is history 

1774
01:45:23,100 --> 01:45:27,300
criticism and pure enjoyment and
it goes on from there but less 

1775
01:45:27,300 --> 01:45:29,900
for the head. 
That's so great. 

1776
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:32,400
Is it always is 
conceptualization always that 

1777
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:37,300
Earnest and straightforward. 
That does sound lovely. 

1778
01:45:37,700 --> 01:45:40,300
Yeah, thanks. 
I don't fit. 

1779
01:45:40,300 --> 01:45:42,100
Hopelessness is not the right 
term? 

1780
01:45:43,100 --> 01:45:45,900
No, I don't think, yeah, I don't
think it's that - it's more of 

1781
01:45:45,900 --> 01:45:49,800
like, you know, a neutral that 
make that is so uncomfortable to

1782
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:52,400
us as Americans that it feels -.
Yeah. 

1783
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:55,700
It's like it is, I mean, it's 
just very it's like, very 

1784
01:45:55,700 --> 01:45:59,200
realistic is, it's not a feeling
the need for change. 

1785
01:46:01,900 --> 01:46:06,100
But the Need For Change was of 
the recognition that you can't. 

1786
01:46:06,100 --> 01:46:09,200
Yeah, the exactly you're not, 
then you're not able to 

1787
01:46:09,200 --> 01:46:12,300
influence it directly. 
It's a need. 

1788
01:46:12,300 --> 01:46:17,000
That can't be that you can as a 
person can't fulfill. 

1789
01:46:17,500 --> 01:46:23,900
Yeah. yeah, I think that feel 
free to continue reflecting on 

1790
01:46:23,900 --> 01:46:26,100
that and your conclusions would 
be interesting if you come up 

1791
01:46:26,100 --> 01:46:28,900
with anything different or that 
is more nuanced than that. 

1792
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:32,800
Why do you think this game was 
made in? 

1793
01:46:33,500 --> 01:46:35,700
And also at all? 
Why was this game made? 

1794
01:46:37,700 --> 01:46:40,800
I think it's because the creator
has a D&D setting and once you 

1795
01:46:40,800 --> 01:46:42,900
get a DND setting you just keep 
rolling. 

1796
01:46:42,900 --> 01:46:46,500
Just have to share it with the 
world as well and hundreds of 

1797
01:46:46,500 --> 01:46:49,500
thousands of words. 
I've read at least three space 

1798
01:46:49,500 --> 01:46:51,800
operas recently, that felt 
exactly like that. 

1799
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:53,800
I'm like how in that what this 
is? 

1800
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:58,100
Just this guy writing down his 
D&D game. 

1801
01:47:00,900 --> 01:47:04,100
I think to offer some Global 
political context. 

1802
01:47:04,100 --> 01:47:06,400
I don't know what estonia's 
having happened, but a lot of 

1803
01:47:06,407 --> 01:47:11,200
the post-soviet republics are 
falling into kind of the first 

1804
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:15,500
tastes of nostalgia, for 
communism and authoritarianism. 

1805
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:19,300
The capitalism that was promised
to large numbers of these 

1806
01:47:19,300 --> 01:47:21,000
countries. 
Like has not meaningfully 

1807
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:26,200
appeared and new generations are
beginning to wonder like what 

1808
01:47:26,200 --> 01:47:30,200
authoritarianism like bring us 
more than these things. have 

1809
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:34,000
brought us, there's kind of this
examination of the past, but I 

1810
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:38,400
also think, People living in 
those situations are much more 

1811
01:47:38,400 --> 01:47:41,700
in touch with the failed 
Revolutions of the past, then we

1812
01:47:41,700 --> 01:47:43,800
are. 
I'm sorry curious. 

1813
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:48,600
If that's true, right? 
Like, I don't know if that's 

1814
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:51,800
true or not, but it does feel 
even here within our own lived 

1815
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:58,400
experience that people are 
forgetting that civil rights 

1816
01:47:59,300 --> 01:48:05,600
wasn't 300 years ago. 
It was like 60, right, like, 

1817
01:48:05,600 --> 01:48:09,400
it's not that long ago, and but 
that didn't happen during our 

1818
01:48:09,400 --> 01:48:14,200
lifetimes, the host of this 
podcast and starting to see 

1819
01:48:14,200 --> 01:48:17,300
people, you know, the 
regressions and thoughts about 

1820
01:48:17,300 --> 01:48:19,300
those things. 
But also, when talking about 

1821
01:48:19,300 --> 01:48:23,500
like this game being made now, 
Yeah, there's something to be 

1822
01:48:23,500 --> 01:48:28,700
said about looking at it and I 
guess that Imperial core concept

1823
01:48:28,700 --> 01:48:30,600
is what comes back to my mind of
being liked. 

1824
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:37,200
We missed the boat. 
There is no boat coming and the 

1825
01:48:37,200 --> 01:48:40,200
next boat has already sailed 
like now, what the fuck do we 

1826
01:48:40,200 --> 01:48:42,600
do? 
And this feels like an 

1827
01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:45,500
exploration of that of like what
do you do when you live in a 

1828
01:48:45,508 --> 01:48:49,000
town that's made of rubble and 
you know that there isn't 

1829
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:53,400
another way out of it? 
I've been stuck on this thought 

1830
01:48:53,400 --> 01:48:58,500
ever since our last podcast when
Nate was saying that like, oh, 

1831
01:48:58,500 --> 01:49:02,400
30 years ago, somebody could 
have been, you know, in their 

1832
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:06,700
50s, who was a pure contemporary
of Pablo Picasso. 

1833
01:49:06,700 --> 01:49:08,800
You're like, wait, what, how is 
that? 

1834
01:49:08,800 --> 01:49:11,200
Sir, that on the podcast, but 
that is wild. 

1835
01:49:11,600 --> 01:49:18,100
It's just like history. 
As soon as you call it history, 

1836
01:49:18,100 --> 01:49:22,300
it seems like 300 years ago, 
right? 

1837
01:49:22,400 --> 01:49:27,000
But there are parts of History 
which are almost within reach. 

1838
01:49:27,900 --> 01:49:30,600
What? 
I'm even like you look at like 

1839
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:34,900
this game called disco, right? 
And like the Disco era being in 

1840
01:49:34,900 --> 01:49:40,800
what, like the 70s and Roe v-- 
Wade, 73, Roe v-- Wade. 

1841
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:47,900
Overturned 2022, right? 
Like, That Gap is not super 

1842
01:49:47,900 --> 01:49:49,500
dramatic. 
No. 

1843
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:52,800
Yes it was dramatic. 
Yeah, it feels super dramatic. 

1844
01:49:52,800 --> 01:49:54,900
You're like holy shit. 
And yet like your we are. 

1845
01:49:54,900 --> 01:49:57,700
It's like oh yeah. 
She just roll back women's 

1846
01:49:57,700 --> 01:50:00,400
rights. 
It's like like people fought for

1847
01:50:00,400 --> 01:50:07,800
that 50 years ago. and I don't 
know that that's like the 

1848
01:50:07,800 --> 01:50:10,900
closest contemporary that I can 
give to something here as far 

1849
01:50:10,900 --> 01:50:14,800
as, like, when looking at this, 
it just feels like a way to 

1850
01:50:14,800 --> 01:50:19,800
explore like, What happens when 
these things that we thought? 

1851
01:50:21,100 --> 01:50:24,900
We had learned from and that the
experiences had been that you'll

1852
01:50:24,900 --> 01:50:26,600
be like we're not going to go 
back to that space. 

1853
01:50:26,600 --> 01:50:29,000
Like what happens when you start
to go back into them? 

1854
01:50:29,700 --> 01:50:33,100
Well failed Revolution, 
certainly isn't just a non 

1855
01:50:33,100 --> 01:50:37,700
Imperial core phenomenon, true 
utopian Ambitions of the 60s 

1856
01:50:37,700 --> 01:50:39,600
here. 
Got moving in the 70s and then 

1857
01:50:39,600 --> 01:50:43,200
all stymied out in the 80s and I
haven't really been seen. 

1858
01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:47,300
Since in Britain, you have the 
summer of love and the other 

1859
01:50:47,300 --> 01:50:49,200
things in the late 80s and early
90s. 

1860
01:50:49,200 --> 01:50:52,800
But I don't think the West is 
really seen meaningful return to

1861
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:55,800
those kind of hopes ever since 
Yeah. 

1862
01:50:57,000 --> 01:50:59,300
What the fuck's happening? 
I guess Eastern European. 

1863
01:50:59,300 --> 01:51:02,000
I guess you mentioned. 
I'd like the the rise of 

1864
01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:03,900
authoritarian regimes for 
continued. 

1865
01:51:03,900 --> 01:51:08,000
Like I mean that's not specific 
to that part of the world either

1866
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:10,400
though. 
No but it's more specific there 

1867
01:51:10,400 --> 01:51:14,700
because when you're outside the 
well I mean to my earlier point 

1868
01:51:14,700 --> 01:51:17,000
there are parts of America 
outside the Imperial Court as 

1869
01:51:17,000 --> 01:51:19,400
well, right? 
Basically I think the point is 

1870
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:22,100
here, the Imperial Court is 
growing stronger, the periphery 

1871
01:51:22,100 --> 01:51:25,600
is growing weaker and anyone in 
the periphery At this point in 

1872
01:51:25,600 --> 01:51:29,300
our history is saying, wait a 
minute, what they're noticing. 

1873
01:51:29,500 --> 01:51:32,200
And what they're thinking about 
authoritarianism, as a solve 

1874
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:34,700
for, is the fact that the 
imperial core grows stronger and

1875
01:51:34,700 --> 01:51:36,700
they see nothing from it. 
Yeah. 

1876
01:51:36,900 --> 01:51:39,700
When the wall fell, and when 
these countries became 

1877
01:51:39,700 --> 01:51:42,900
capitalist, the belief was that 
they would be part of the 

1878
01:51:42,900 --> 01:51:45,100
Imperial core. 
The reality is there the 

1879
01:51:45,100 --> 01:51:50,300
periphery And living with that 
dichotomy is something that I 

1880
01:51:50,300 --> 01:51:53,800
don't think us as productive. 
Well, earning members of our 

1881
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:57,200
world can quite understand but 
it's easy to look down upon Gap 

1882
01:51:57,200 --> 01:52:00,000
has widened also, right? 
Yeah, it's not, it's not. 

1883
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:02,000
There's no turning that back. 
It seems. 

1884
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:07,600
There are places in the world 
according to some travel, like 

1885
01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:10,600
ethnographies. 
I've read where it's being 

1886
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:12,800
shown. 
That authoritarianism does keep 

1887
01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:16,300
more money in the periphery than
capitalism. 

1888
01:52:17,500 --> 01:52:19,900
And that's disturbing something.
Thats dark. 

1889
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:24,200
The like these conclusions 
aren't just wrong and stupid. 

1890
01:52:24,300 --> 01:52:29,000
These are parts of huge systems 
that are evil and not equal. 

1891
01:52:29,200 --> 01:52:34,000
And it's interesting to me that 
this game I mean, the fact that 

1892
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:36,700
it's even got us talking about, 
this is amazing, it's cool. 

1893
01:52:37,100 --> 01:52:39,900
It does kind of raise the 
question, like, what's the 

1894
01:52:39,900 --> 01:52:42,000
future? 
If you live in a region like 

1895
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:46,500
this, what can you hope for? 
Yeah, I'm curious from the game 

1896
01:52:46,500 --> 01:52:49,900
directors, like, the guys that 
were building a campaign. 

1897
01:52:49,900 --> 01:52:53,600
Like what were they looking to 
explore with these Concepts 

1898
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:55,800
within their own worldview as 
well, right? 

1899
01:52:55,800 --> 01:53:00,100
Like what, and maybe this gets 
into the piece that we're 

1900
01:53:00,100 --> 01:53:04,600
talking about earlier as far as 
we want there to be like a clean

1901
01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:07,400
outcome of like, hey, you're 
doing this because there's like 

1902
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:11,400
this resolution that you're 
looking to reach and that just 

1903
01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:14,000
might not be part of what's 
looking to be explored here. 

1904
01:53:15,500 --> 01:53:18,500
Yeah. 
Which feels really uncomfortable

1905
01:53:18,500 --> 01:53:20,700
to me. 
Yeah, I think a lot of the 

1906
01:53:20,708 --> 01:53:24,500
people in these countries, if 
you think about like Central 

1907
01:53:24,500 --> 01:53:28,400
Asia that are going for 
authoritarianism, these aren't 

1908
01:53:28,400 --> 01:53:30,500
uneducated people that are 
pushing for this. 

1909
01:53:30,500 --> 01:53:33,500
These are people that have 
traveled have been to the West 

1910
01:53:33,700 --> 01:53:37,600
have seen capitalism and are 
fighting for it because they 

1911
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,900
know that that same thing won't 
bring things to them. 

1912
01:53:43,800 --> 01:53:46,100
That's dark. 
Yeah. 

1913
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:51,300
So yeah, I think in some sense 
the future for those regions 

1914
01:53:51,300 --> 01:53:56,500
might be I'm you would hope some
kind of Revolution. 

1915
01:53:56,500 --> 01:53:58,500
Akin to what happened a century 
ago, right? 

1916
01:53:58,500 --> 01:54:00,700
Where we try new forms of 
government that are all about 

1917
01:54:00,700 --> 01:54:06,100
equality But those revolutions 
turned into fascism. 

1918
01:54:06,700 --> 01:54:12,400
Yeah, those revolutions were so 
so thoroughly and part of its 

1919
01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:13,800
because our Viewpoint in the 
west. 

1920
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:15,700
Right? 
We there's a clear narrative 

1921
01:54:15,700 --> 01:54:18,800
that of course, communism 
becomes fascism might as well, 

1922
01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:22,000
not even try it. 
And that's that's as much of a 

1923
01:54:22,008 --> 01:54:26,200
marketing thing as it is a 
reality, Maybe. 

1924
01:54:27,500 --> 01:54:31,400
But it sure has set a damper on 
trying things like that again 

1925
01:54:31,400 --> 01:54:33,500
even in a time where they're 
needed more than ever and 

1926
01:54:33,500 --> 01:54:35,200
probably even more than they 
were back then. 

1927
01:54:37,200 --> 01:54:40,900
So I guess the Practical answer 
is probably authoritarianism but

1928
01:54:41,300 --> 01:54:46,100
I kind of hope somewhere in the 
world like something new emerges

1929
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:48,400
and I hope that its outcome is 
better than the last time this 

1930
01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:51,800
happened, right? 
But that history is Within Reach

1931
01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:54,700
and there are people alive that 
remember how bad it was and that

1932
01:54:54,700 --> 01:54:58,600
really inhibits the options that
people feel like they can have. 

1933
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:03,900
Well, it's also without going 
too far into my king way away 

1934
01:55:03,900 --> 01:55:06,500
from the media that were 
discussing. 

1935
01:55:07,900 --> 01:55:11,000
Looking at things like Ubi like 
Universal basic income or things

1936
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:13,900
of that nature but like that's 
predicated on having a piece of 

1937
01:55:13,900 --> 01:55:16,800
the pie, I think you have to 
have money as so. 

1938
01:55:17,100 --> 01:55:22,000
And when that money is hoarded 
by small amount of the people on

1939
01:55:22,000 --> 01:55:25,900
the planet and used in other 
ways like you block out those 

1940
01:55:25,900 --> 01:55:28,100
opportunities as well. 
Yeah. 

1941
01:55:30,300 --> 01:55:34,400
I think the brutal answer is 
there's not a future. 

1942
01:55:35,500 --> 01:55:40,700
That the hope is limited to a 
way for us to make it by. 

1943
01:55:46,100 --> 01:55:49,400
So we can pull back from like 
extreme Bleak existentialism I 

1944
01:55:49,400 --> 01:55:54,000
suppose if you'd like yeah. 
How do we, how do we roll back 

1945
01:55:54,000 --> 01:55:58,000
from that one? 
Poof man thinking about the Roe 

1946
01:55:58,000 --> 01:56:00,700
v-- Wade? 
And, you know, I always think of

1947
01:56:00,700 --> 01:56:05,900
that phrase the moral Arc of 
whatever, always bends words 

1948
01:56:05,900 --> 01:56:07,800
Justice. 
Yeah. 

1949
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:15,000
And it's You know, that's a like
it's a tenancy, right? 

1950
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:19,700
The The stochastic, which the 
average. 

1951
01:56:19,700 --> 01:56:23,200
Yeah, and obviously not 
everything is going to happen 

1952
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:26,700
that way. 
But man, that one, so hard to 

1953
01:56:26,700 --> 01:56:33,000
deal with for me, like, mmm. did
you know like the real pain of 

1954
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:36,700
like seeing that I human scale 
of like people are going to 

1955
01:56:37,300 --> 01:56:41,000
literally die because of that 
and people are going to be hurt 

1956
01:56:41,000 --> 01:56:45,900
and people are going to be like 
there's like true suffering that

1957
01:56:47,200 --> 01:56:51,700
We will witness in the Years 
between now and hopefully when 

1958
01:56:51,700 --> 01:56:53,900
that bends in the right 
direction. 

1959
01:56:54,400 --> 01:57:02,300
Yeah, that sucks. 
Anyway sorry sorry to totally 

1960
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:04,800
Sidetrack us there. 
So one of the things that we 

1961
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:08,300
haven't hit on throughout this 
entire podcast has been, there's

1962
01:57:08,300 --> 01:57:11,200
no combat mechanics, right? 
Like we haven't talked about the

1963
01:57:11,200 --> 01:57:15,900
gameplay specifically within 
this, that it's completely 

1964
01:57:15,900 --> 01:57:19,600
different than most traditional 
RPGs where there is some sort of

1965
01:57:19,600 --> 01:57:22,600
action that you're partaking in 
outside of conversation. 

1966
01:57:23,600 --> 01:57:26,700
And curious for your guys is 
exactly what I was saying, 

1967
01:57:26,700 --> 01:57:36,600
right, before I died, I'm 
curious for your perspective on 

1968
01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:41,400
a dialogue-driven RPG and this 
capacity that's almost it's 

1969
01:57:41,400 --> 01:57:44,000
almost a can do a visual novel 
with a 3D space. 

1970
01:57:44,000 --> 01:57:49,000
You can move through versus 
combat focused RPGs Divinity 

1971
01:57:49,300 --> 01:57:54,900
which are You know, other things
that exist within that space, 

1972
01:57:55,900 --> 01:57:59,600
this one is skews that entirely.
I definitely think this is 

1973
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:03,200
combat focused. 
Its idea combat its word combat 

1974
01:58:03,200 --> 01:58:05,300
well. 
Okay, word combat like, it 

1975
01:58:05,300 --> 01:58:08,000
actually does get into that only
at a few key moments, but I 

1976
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:10,900
think it is like it represents 
the combat of ideas, pretty 

1977
01:58:10,900 --> 01:58:13,200
consistently. 
Like there's multiple voices in 

1978
01:58:13,200 --> 01:58:16,500
your head that are like 
contesting against each other at

1979
01:58:16,500 --> 01:58:21,000
many points in this game, right?
That's a, that's a great one. 

1980
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:26,600
I didn't think about the, the 
spot where I literally died was 

1981
01:58:26,700 --> 01:58:29,700
a, you know, my conversation 
with ever art and it was like, 

1982
01:58:29,700 --> 01:58:34,900
this battle of wills and it's 
literally you and ever are going

1983
01:58:34,900 --> 01:58:37,300
at it. 
Like, which one of us is going 

1984
01:58:37,300 --> 01:58:41,500
to back down first, who is going
to make the dumb move? 

1985
01:58:41,500 --> 01:58:45,700
How are we going to negotiate 
ourselves into a better 

1986
01:58:45,700 --> 01:58:48,800
negotiating position here? 
Like, there's definitely 

1987
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:50,900
competition Bat in this game. 
It just not. 

1988
01:58:51,300 --> 01:58:53,100
You know it's not a first person
shooter. 

1989
01:58:53,100 --> 01:58:54,700
Cool. 
Yeah. 

1990
01:58:54,700 --> 01:58:59,000
And I don't think that's just 
like well actually Craig like I 

1991
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:02,900
think that they're I think that 
like this kind of combat that 

1992
01:59:02,900 --> 01:59:05,300
were describing is kind of a 
first class citizen. 

1993
01:59:05,400 --> 01:59:08,600
A primary mechanic of this game 
even in the same way that it is 

1994
01:59:09,200 --> 01:59:13,600
in RPGs. 
It's funny like they say in the 

1995
01:59:13,600 --> 01:59:17,200
marketing, like, it's an RPG 
except the members of your party

1996
01:59:17,200 --> 01:59:20,600
are all voices in your head. 
And that kind of makes it sound 

1997
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:23,600
like it's a like, a way of 
explaining something that's 

1998
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:25,500
actually very different using a 
metaphor. 

1999
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:29,100
Yeah, but I think that actually 
is exactly what it is. 

2000
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:31,800
Yeah, it's actually pretty. 
That's a pretty bang on 

2001
01:59:31,800 --> 01:59:33,900
descriptor. 
I was going to say, except you 

2002
01:59:33,907 --> 01:59:37,100
don't have to, like, choose and 
bring in and out party members. 

2003
01:59:37,100 --> 01:59:39,600
But you actually do that too, by
equipping items. 

2004
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:45,100
Thought cabinets, specking up 
different levels like It's 

2005
01:59:45,100 --> 01:59:49,200
actually very strange how 
extremely traditional of an RPG.

2006
01:59:49,200 --> 01:59:54,200
It is just for the few like Like
knobs turned into. 

2007
01:59:54,200 --> 01:59:55,800
Yeah. 
Actually the mechanics don't 

2008
01:59:55,800 --> 02:00:00,100
quite line up but they're also 
exactly the same kind of it has 

2009
02:00:00,100 --> 02:00:04,000
exactly the same amount of like 
Choice. 

2010
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:08,100
Well, that brings up something. 
I was thinking about which is 

2011
02:00:08,100 --> 02:00:11,400
that like a lot of RPGs are 
designed to convince you. 

2012
02:00:11,400 --> 02:00:14,100
There's choice at every moment 
like constantly reminding you, 

2013
02:00:14,100 --> 02:00:15,800
okay, pick this option of that 
option. 

2014
02:00:16,200 --> 02:00:20,100
Where's this game tones? 
I remember then Cameron 

2015
02:00:20,100 --> 02:00:23,100
councilman on. 
This was on majors and murdered 

2016
02:00:23,100 --> 02:00:26,700
ads where they did a long-form 
playthrough of this game in 

2017
02:00:26,700 --> 02:00:28,500
audio. 
I think it's on YouTube too, but

2018
02:00:29,100 --> 02:00:31,100
there were talking about how 
when you get to the end of this 

2019
02:00:31,100 --> 02:00:32,400
game you're like yeah I saw the 
game. 

2020
02:00:32,400 --> 02:00:37,200
That's all there was but because
this game does such a fabulous 

2021
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:40,700
job of convincing you that the 
choices you've made are like 

2022
02:00:40,700 --> 02:00:44,500
real this game excels at 
convincing you that all the 

2023
02:00:44,500 --> 02:00:46,300
choices you've made are the 
correct ones. 

2024
02:00:46,300 --> 02:00:49,100
No matter how weird out there 
they are it's got like full 

2025
02:00:49,100 --> 02:00:51,000
writing to back everything you 
do up. 

2026
02:00:51,600 --> 02:00:55,100
Yeah, and you only discover that
there's a lot of other options 

2027
02:00:55,100 --> 02:00:57,500
by kind of looking outside the 
game, which is kind of the 

2028
02:00:57,500 --> 02:01:00,600
opposite of most RPGs which have
to kind of insecurely convince 

2029
02:01:00,600 --> 02:01:05,500
you that your choice matters. 
Yeah, a lot of this game, you 

2030
02:01:05,600 --> 02:01:09,100
there are a bunch of checks that
happen behind the scenes that 

2031
02:01:09,100 --> 02:01:13,300
you only see if you pass those 
checks like, yeah. 

2032
02:01:13,300 --> 02:01:16,800
Sample, it cyclopedia, right? 
If you have a high enough, 

2033
02:01:16,800 --> 02:01:20,200
encyclopedia encyclopedia will 
jump in and till you give you 

2034
02:01:20,200 --> 02:01:22,600
all these context about all 
these things are going on. 

2035
02:01:22,900 --> 02:01:25,800
If you don't have enough high 
enough, encyclopedia you just 

2036
02:01:25,800 --> 02:01:29,500
don't get that context at all. 
Yeah, just literally or never 

2037
02:01:29,500 --> 02:01:32,200
present itself within the world.
Yeah. 

2038
02:01:32,200 --> 02:01:35,100
The same with Them. 
What's the one you were talking 

2039
02:01:35,100 --> 02:01:36,500
about? 
That's about the city. 

2040
02:01:36,900 --> 02:01:40,600
Like I never got any notion a? 
Yeah, we're just like wandering 

2041
02:01:40,600 --> 02:01:45,200
around and it's like, hey, in 22
years, rubbish, all be destined 

2042
02:01:45,200 --> 02:01:47,800
to be designated by a nuclear 
blast or whatnot. 

2043
02:01:48,100 --> 02:01:51,100
Yeah, I never got any of that 
context, little to any of the 

2044
02:01:51,100 --> 02:01:55,700
games that I played. 
Yeah, so that I think that 

2045
02:01:55,700 --> 02:01:59,700
answers a bit of the question 
also, like, did should this have

2046
02:01:59,700 --> 02:02:02,400
been a book or did this need to 
be a game? 

2047
02:02:02,600 --> 02:02:05,800
And yeah, that's a Turf 
unquestioning full. 

2048
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:07,600
Yeah. 
Is there a meaningful benefit in

2049
02:02:07,600 --> 02:02:10,200
it? 
Being having been a game when I 

2050
02:02:10,200 --> 02:02:12,600
recommend this to people, 
they're like, oh, you just like 

2051
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:15,400
games with words? 
You should probably read a book.

2052
02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:17,700
There's a lot of them. 
Yes, that's also true. 

2053
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:21,400
But this is way cooler as a game
than a book. 

2054
02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:24,100
Like it actually brings things 
to the table. 

2055
02:02:24,100 --> 02:02:26,800
Will your comments about the art
is, like, totally part of that 

2056
02:02:26,800 --> 02:02:31,900
to, like the art here is I mean,
it's not only cool but it's 

2057
02:02:32,900 --> 02:02:36,400
ludonarrative, Lisa didn't 
synchronous. 

2058
02:02:39,700 --> 02:02:42,700
Yeah, there's a specific quest 
line that I thought was 

2059
02:02:42,700 --> 02:02:45,800
interesting that kind of gets 
into the world of us dealing 

2060
02:02:45,800 --> 02:02:51,100
with economics and capitalism 
and you made the funniest thing 

2061
02:02:51,100 --> 02:02:53,400
in all of gaming. 
Yeah, I was inside. 

2062
02:02:53,600 --> 02:02:57,300
So Nate tell us about the figure
out how the world Works quest 

2063
02:02:57,300 --> 02:03:00,700
line and how you complete it. 
The fact that you learn how the 

2064
02:03:00,700 --> 02:03:03,900
world Works, only by talking to 
rich people is just really 

2065
02:03:03,900 --> 02:03:05,100
funny. 
Yep. 

2066
02:03:05,300 --> 02:03:07,600
That's all. 
That's very good. 

2067
02:03:08,100 --> 02:03:12,900
Well played Perfect. 
What about chem as a character 

2068
02:03:12,900 --> 02:03:16,500
we'd let off at the top of the 
podcast talking about can being 

2069
02:03:16,500 --> 02:03:19,400
the goat of NPCs. 
What makes them that? 

2070
02:03:20,300 --> 02:03:21,800
Well you kind of talked about 
this. 

2071
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:24,200
What you got any more to 
elaborate on that? 

2072
02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:31,700
I think it's his he is both 
completely adaptable. 

2073
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:37,100
He's like the ultimate wingman, 
whatever you say he's gonna be 

2074
02:03:37,100 --> 02:03:39,400
there to support you and your 
band. 

2075
02:03:39,400 --> 02:03:41,500
He's not only. 
Does he got here back? 

2076
02:03:41,500 --> 02:03:45,600
He's got your back in the 
perfect way like he like a rock,

2077
02:03:46,300 --> 02:03:49,600
whatever you're saying. 
He was thinking the same thing 

2078
02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:52,700
right before you said it 
regardless of what you're saying

2079
02:03:52,700 --> 02:03:54,700
it. 
Yeah, he's perfect. 

2080
02:03:55,000 --> 02:03:56,900
Even when, you know, he doesn't 
agree with you. 

2081
02:03:57,700 --> 02:04:00,600
He's like still With it. 
That's absolutely. 

2082
02:04:00,700 --> 02:04:02,700
Which I guess is like the point 
of a partner, right? 

2083
02:04:02,700 --> 02:04:06,700
Like your partner should be He 
can back you up and then, if you

2084
02:04:06,700 --> 02:04:10,200
guys have a disagreement do hash
that out separately, but like in

2085
02:04:10,200 --> 02:04:12,500
the moment, he's going to 
support you. 

2086
02:04:12,500 --> 02:04:15,500
What needs to happen? 
He's beta and Alpha. 

2087
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:17,500
He totally is. 
He's just like sitting next to 

2088
02:04:17,500 --> 02:04:21,100
me and you're like, oh ken if 
chem like has something to say 

2089
02:04:21,100 --> 02:04:23,800
here, like we should shut the 
fuck up. 

2090
02:04:24,000 --> 02:04:26,000
Yeah. 
It's no matter how convinced of 

2091
02:04:26,000 --> 02:04:28,000
I ideology. 
I am any time he talks. 

2092
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:31,200
I'm like, what, what? 
What is Kim think though? 

2093
02:04:31,300 --> 02:04:34,800
Yeah, yeah, especially because 
of like, how he presents 

2094
02:04:35,100 --> 02:04:38,500
throughout everything, where 
your pure chaos and he's like, 

2095
02:04:39,600 --> 02:04:42,500
The ideal like stable partner, 
right? 

2096
02:04:42,500 --> 02:04:46,000
He's just like you know whatever
you're drunk or high or whatever

2097
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:49,200
the fuck you're doing like even 
that we're here to work our 

2098
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:52,500
case. 
He attributes your chaos to the 

2099
02:04:52,500 --> 02:04:59,500
Jamrock Shuffle like it is a 
method that is so intense that 

2100
02:04:59,500 --> 02:05:03,800
the average human cannot 
understand your chaos but your 

2101
02:05:03,800 --> 02:05:08,700
chaos is not chaos. 
It's a like a, you're playing 3D

2102
02:05:08,700 --> 02:05:15,700
chess. 
Like, he's attributing genius to

2103
02:05:15,700 --> 02:05:20,900
your chaos. 
That just makes it feel great. 

2104
02:05:21,800 --> 02:05:24,300
It's also fascinating, how he's 
gay, right? 

2105
02:05:25,100 --> 02:05:26,700
Yeah. 
Or at least it's okay. 

2106
02:05:26,700 --> 02:05:29,700
I did, I said, you know, if it 
came up explicitly but 

2107
02:05:29,900 --> 02:05:32,800
definitely is like clearly 
alluded to tell me more. 

2108
02:05:33,100 --> 02:05:36,000
It's not a reversal any explicit
Trope, but I like that the 

2109
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:39,200
straight person is like utterly 
chaotic and crazy and the gay. 

2110
02:05:39,300 --> 02:05:45,200
Is the absolute like rock of 
like unquestioned not Authority 

2111
02:05:45,200 --> 02:05:48,200
but like she's got a shitty 
instability that the straight 

2112
02:05:48,200 --> 02:05:50,300
man is gay. 
Well yeah that that's a whole 

2113
02:05:50,300 --> 02:05:52,900
quest line, right. 
Like when you sit down and you 

2114
02:05:52,900 --> 02:05:55,500
finally tell him you're going to
stop questioning your sexuality 

2115
02:05:55,500 --> 02:05:56,900
and he goes I think that's 
great. 

2116
02:05:57,500 --> 02:06:00,000
Yeah. 
Like like it's he probably 

2117
02:06:00,000 --> 02:06:02,300
doesn't believe you but he's 
just happy for you. 

2118
02:06:02,500 --> 02:06:04,600
It's I mean it does get into a 
little bit of. 

2119
02:06:05,400 --> 02:06:09,100
I didn't like the Duality that 
you'll run into ya later. 

2120
02:06:09,400 --> 02:06:11,000
There's like a jacket, there's a
whole thing. 

2121
02:06:12,500 --> 02:06:17,000
The Duality within our, our 
current world also is in that 

2122
02:06:17,000 --> 02:06:21,800
same space where Like racism at 
play Within the world's. 

2123
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:24,300
Right? 
And now specifically since like 

2124
02:06:24,300 --> 02:06:27,200
2016 white people have been 
like, oh we should show them the

2125
02:06:27,200 --> 02:06:32,200
allies and margin eyes. 
Folks are like about goddamn 

2126
02:06:32,200 --> 02:06:34,900
time like we've been waiting on 
you like what the fuck are you 

2127
02:06:34,900 --> 02:06:36,700
doing right? 
So I don't know there's 

2128
02:06:36,700 --> 02:06:41,100
something about him just being a
character it's like yeah sort 

2129
02:06:41,100 --> 02:06:44,200
your shit out. 
Like you're the straight 

2130
02:06:44,200 --> 02:06:46,600
cisgender dude. 
Here like cool your sexuality. 

2131
02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:48,300
Like got it. 
We don't need. 

2132
02:06:48,400 --> 02:06:51,200
To we've gone through all this 
already. 

2133
02:06:51,800 --> 02:06:54,600
Yeah. 
But he in that analogy, he's 

2134
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:59,100
like the heroic figure that has 
infinite energy for supporting a

2135
02:06:59,100 --> 02:07:02,300
clueless Ally, right? 
Like it doesn't seem to cost Kim

2136
02:07:02,300 --> 02:07:05,700
anything when you completely, 
fuck up, any sort of whether 

2137
02:07:05,700 --> 02:07:08,200
you're Miss categorizing his 
race or talking about other 

2138
02:07:08,200 --> 02:07:11,900
people like know failed. 
Allyship costs, Kim anything, 

2139
02:07:11,900 --> 02:07:15,800
which is kind of fascinating. 
He's the epitome of. 

2140
02:07:17,500 --> 02:07:20,600
What's the opposite of toss? 
Toxic masculinity. 

2141
02:07:20,900 --> 02:07:25,600
I don't think there is one will 
is it this podcast co-host? 

2142
02:07:25,700 --> 02:07:31,200
There's people talk about like 
the rock as being the opposite 

2143
02:07:31,200 --> 02:07:36,100
of toxic masculinity, like he is
super masculine but in a way 

2144
02:07:36,100 --> 02:07:45,900
that's like completely accepting
and nurturing and inclusive like

2145
02:07:48,300 --> 02:07:51,000
I wish I could remember what the
name of that but that's kind of 

2146
02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:56,500
what Kim feels like in a knot. 
Just masculinity but like it 

2147
02:07:56,500 --> 02:08:04,400
from a moral standpoint like a 
completely accepting on a moral 

2148
02:08:04,400 --> 02:08:07,400
level. 
I was kind of talking about this

2149
02:08:07,400 --> 02:08:13,700
concept of and I found this like
healthy masculinity, people talk

2150
02:08:13,700 --> 02:08:17,900
about like the rock as being one
of these guys who's like super 

2151
02:08:17,900 --> 02:08:20,200
super masculine ilka. 
Ignore like yeah, that's a 

2152
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:22,500
fucking man. 
That man ass man. 

2153
02:08:22,500 --> 02:08:26,700
Man, man's man, but he's also 
inclusive. 

2154
02:08:26,700 --> 02:08:32,200
He involves people. 
He's emotionally accepting of 

2155
02:08:32,200 --> 02:08:35,400
people. 
He can have relationships with 

2156
02:08:35,400 --> 02:08:38,900
strong. 
Email people that are not like 

2157
02:08:39,500 --> 02:08:46,700
challenging his masculinity like
that feels like what Kim is but 

2158
02:08:46,700 --> 02:08:49,800
like on a moral level instead of
a masculine level that makes 

2159
02:08:49,800 --> 02:08:51,700
sense. 
Yeah, it absolutely does. 

2160
02:08:51,700 --> 02:08:55,000
That's interesting with regards 
to the writing style. 

2161
02:08:56,100 --> 02:08:58,900
Do you find the way that the 
actual dialogue was presented to

2162
02:08:58,900 --> 02:09:00,900
be interesting? 
Or something that kept you 

2163
02:09:00,900 --> 02:09:04,600
engaged versus providing blocks 
of text. 

2164
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:07,800
Like, everything was almost like
just quick hits consistently. 

2165
02:09:07,800 --> 02:09:09,800
Right? 
It wasn't, there's not like a 

2166
02:09:09,800 --> 02:09:13,600
lot of, like, here's so the book
page to read. 

2167
02:09:14,000 --> 02:09:18,800
So, one of the changes that I am
aware of from the Final Cut, is 

2168
02:09:18,800 --> 02:09:24,300
that all of the internal voice 
has got voiced in the Final Cut 

2169
02:09:25,100 --> 02:09:29,800
and I think that that was not 
true for the initial cut to that

2170
02:09:29,800 --> 02:09:33,300
cause you any problems here, 
they're neat. 

2171
02:09:34,600 --> 02:09:37,500
Oh, I hate full voice acting 
weird ever play. 

2172
02:09:37,500 --> 02:09:39,300
The final cut the way it is 
released. 

2173
02:09:39,300 --> 02:09:43,400
I think it's and it's it's funny
because I can alternate exact 

2174
02:09:43,400 --> 02:09:44,800
opposite way. 
Yeah. 

2175
02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:46,600
I mean readers. 
We never readers. 

2176
02:09:46,600 --> 02:09:48,300
Never like full voice acting, 
right? 

2177
02:09:48,300 --> 02:09:51,300
Like I hate voice acting and 
fall out like because I feel 

2178
02:09:51,300 --> 02:09:54,500
rude interrupting people because
I read like 30 times faster than

2179
02:09:54,600 --> 02:09:58,300
like I hate playing a game where
I constantly have to cut off 

2180
02:09:58,300 --> 02:09:59,600
voice acting. 
It sucks. 

2181
02:10:00,300 --> 02:10:04,000
I read probably about as much as
you do. 

2182
02:10:04,400 --> 02:10:07,200
Inaudible and I love voice 
acting. 

2183
02:10:07,200 --> 02:10:11,200
It is the epitome of he's a 
text-based reader non-audio 

2184
02:10:11,200 --> 02:10:12,200
readers. 
Yes, sorry. 

2185
02:10:12,200 --> 02:10:14,700
I don't want to bring that 
gatekeeping here but I think in 

2186
02:10:14,700 --> 02:10:16,300
this case it is a different 
thing, right? 

2187
02:10:16,300 --> 02:10:19,600
So to me, that didn't affect it.
But one thing I would say 

2188
02:10:19,600 --> 02:10:25,200
outside of my particular, 
penchant for abstract, 

2189
02:10:25,200 --> 02:10:31,200
scribblings on dead trees is 
that I've heard that the each 

2190
02:10:31,200 --> 02:10:35,100
of, the thoughts being voiced 
can actually add sort Of a like 

2191
02:10:35,100 --> 02:10:38,300
a tonal interpretation in places
where there was none before. 

2192
02:10:38,600 --> 02:10:41,700
So the example I heard on this 
was that Inland Empire is kind 

2193
02:10:41,700 --> 02:10:46,800
of sassy and sarcastic and that 
that like might kind of like 

2194
02:10:48,100 --> 02:10:51,100
That gives you like additional 
information that can kind of 

2195
02:10:51,100 --> 02:10:53,900
ruin that voice for you, 
depending on your personal like,

2196
02:10:53,900 --> 02:10:57,900
hopes, our feelings of it. 
That's actually interesting. 

2197
02:10:57,900 --> 02:11:02,200
I didn't think about how that 
would present like how that 

2198
02:11:02,200 --> 02:11:06,000
would change my perception as 
how the voice was presented. 

2199
02:11:06,000 --> 02:11:10,000
Since I had only played it with 
voice acting turned on it, moves

2200
02:11:10,000 --> 02:11:11,800
it towards the visual media, 
right? 

2201
02:11:11,800 --> 02:11:15,000
Where there's less and less. 
More of the work is being taken 

2202
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:17,500
away from you which is great. 
I think there's definitely some 

2203
02:11:17,500 --> 02:11:22,800
but it It less interpretive. 
That is one of the downsides to 

2204
02:11:22,800 --> 02:11:26,100
kind of the audio reading as a 
as a medium in general. 

2205
02:11:26,500 --> 02:11:32,600
I have just been thinking about 
that this week, we're voice. 

2206
02:11:32,600 --> 02:11:40,600
Actors will add specific like 
inflections on a reading based 

2207
02:11:40,600 --> 02:11:44,100
on what is called out on the 
book. 

2208
02:11:45,500 --> 02:11:49,700
Hmm, witch. 
Makes sense when they do it. 

2209
02:11:49,700 --> 02:11:55,900
But also it also eventually 
reminds you that when it's not 

2210
02:11:55,900 --> 02:11:59,700
called out in the book, they are
still adding some inflections 

2211
02:11:59,700 --> 02:12:06,800
that they have decided. 
Or like there's some Like acting

2212
02:12:06,800 --> 02:12:13,900
notes that don't show up in the 
text like yeah, it's a whole 

2213
02:12:13,900 --> 02:12:17,200
extra level that yeah. 
Does. 

2214
02:12:17,200 --> 02:12:19,600
It definitely does change the 
context of it. 

2215
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:24,700
It's interesting because one 
other piece that I did find 

2216
02:12:24,700 --> 02:12:27,800
about the writing style for me 
having it. 

2217
02:12:28,700 --> 02:12:31,900
I'll, man, I hate it. 
I hate this, but it's almost 

2218
02:12:31,900 --> 02:12:37,300
like tweets and where they were 
Constant quick hitters. 

2219
02:12:37,300 --> 02:12:39,400
I love that you brought this up.
Yeah, this is interesting. 

2220
02:12:39,700 --> 02:12:45,200
Yeah, we're to me it helped just
keep the flow of the 

2221
02:12:45,208 --> 02:12:48,900
conversation and it helped to 
keep it feel conversational as 

2222
02:12:48,900 --> 02:12:53,700
opposed to. 
Here's just a block of thought 

2223
02:12:53,700 --> 02:12:57,100
and said it was like here, like 
we're having an ongoing 

2224
02:12:57,100 --> 02:12:59,800
dialogue, and it really made it 
feel like we're having a 

2225
02:12:59,800 --> 02:13:03,100
dialogue with yourself, right? 
That you were interrogating, 

2226
02:13:03,100 --> 02:13:06,400
your own ideas throughout that I
I don't think that would have 

2227
02:13:06,400 --> 02:13:09,700
worked with longer-form speech, 
bubbles. 

2228
02:13:09,800 --> 02:13:12,500
Yeah, I mean, you're hitting on 
something really fucking cool 

2229
02:13:12,500 --> 02:13:15,200
about this game, which is that? 
It makes like high-minded 

2230
02:13:15,200 --> 02:13:18,900
literary Pros approachable, in 
that sense. 

2231
02:13:18,900 --> 02:13:23,000
If you want to like, if you want
to read fancy writing goes back 

2232
02:13:23,000 --> 02:13:25,200
your character and shivers and 
Inland Empire and just play 

2233
02:13:25,200 --> 02:13:26,900
along. 
You get one shot, one sentence 

2234
02:13:26,900 --> 02:13:29,200
at a time. 
Unlike I'm pointing at my 

2235
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:30,800
bookshelf. 
I've got tons of books over 

2236
02:13:30,800 --> 02:13:32,400
there. 
There 800 pages long. 

2237
02:13:32,800 --> 02:13:35,500
Each paragraph is a full page. 
Age. 

2238
02:13:35,800 --> 02:13:37,500
Each sentence is half that like 
it. 

2239
02:13:37,600 --> 02:13:44,100
It's there's something really 
triumphant and unusual about the

2240
02:13:44,100 --> 02:13:48,400
combination of style and 
approach ability here and I it's

2241
02:13:48,400 --> 02:13:49,800
really cool. 
You brought it up the way you 

2242
02:13:49,800 --> 02:13:51,500
did because I hadn't really 
thought about that. 

2243
02:13:53,400 --> 02:13:58,400
And I think that does present it
in a way that is approachable to

2244
02:13:58,400 --> 02:14:00,800
the masses. 
Like, in a way to your point 

2245
02:14:00,800 --> 02:14:05,500
where if you were to just even 
if it was twice, the length of 

2246
02:14:05,500 --> 02:14:08,600
like, what the average sentence 
is like, that would change the 

2247
02:14:08,600 --> 02:14:11,600
context of how you interact with
the game drastically. 

2248
02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:14,800
And yeah, and I interface does a
great job like all the sound 

2249
02:14:14,800 --> 02:14:18,400
effects, like just like it's 
sliding on it all of its really 

2250
02:14:18,400 --> 02:14:20,800
good. 
Yeah, in a game that I think had

2251
02:14:20,800 --> 02:14:23,100
a janky like that. 
Part is great. 

2252
02:14:23,100 --> 02:14:28,200
It they nailed down, two sides. 
I think that the colors really 

2253
02:14:28,200 --> 02:14:31,800
helped because there's four 
colors. 

2254
02:14:32,200 --> 02:14:35,900
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. 
So the UI has like layers in 

2255
02:14:35,900 --> 02:14:38,100
that way. 
Based on those four colors. 

2256
02:14:38,100 --> 02:14:41,500
You like, you have a general 
idea of what caused what the 

2257
02:14:41,500 --> 02:14:45,100
context is of the, the 
conversation that's coming in. 

2258
02:14:45,600 --> 02:14:51,100
I also think, I think there's 
too many skills in this game, I 

2259
02:14:51,100 --> 02:14:53,900
just There's just yeah, that 
could be. 

2260
02:14:54,200 --> 02:14:59,000
Yeah, if things were compacted 
quite a bit, I think you would 

2261
02:14:59,000 --> 02:15:03,200
have an opportunity to have a 
better. 

2262
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:07,800
Grasp of how much of the world 
you're touching with each of 

2263
02:15:07,800 --> 02:15:11,400
those things, like, especially, 
since I haven't talked about 

2264
02:15:11,400 --> 02:15:13,900
this, but but like, 
replayability, I think is really

2265
02:15:13,900 --> 02:15:16,400
poor in this game. 
Despite how much cool stuff 

2266
02:15:16,400 --> 02:15:20,600
there is, like, I've tried to go
back and I absolutely love this 

2267
02:15:20,600 --> 02:15:24,100
game and I've tried to go back 
and it's like, yeah, like I know

2268
02:15:24,100 --> 02:15:26,300
ice is that. 
Why do you bounce off it? 

2269
02:15:27,600 --> 02:15:31,000
Well hold on. 
Now I do great question but I do

2270
02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:33,300
want to let. 
Yeah, we'll finish. 

2271
02:15:34,400 --> 02:15:40,000
Yeah I think it's just that 
there's basically 36 options for

2272
02:15:40,600 --> 02:15:43,800
like what to put your skill in 
as your leveling. 

2273
02:15:44,200 --> 02:15:48,800
Yeah. 
But also there's the mental. 

2274
02:15:49,300 --> 02:15:51,500
The thought cabinets is another 
place. 

2275
02:15:51,500 --> 02:15:54,900
You can put thought points into.
So it ends up being. 

2276
02:15:55,100 --> 02:15:58,900
It feels like there are like 
Three different places that you 

2277
02:15:58,900 --> 02:16:03,900
can put a a skill point into. 
And so it's really hard because 

2278
02:16:03,900 --> 02:16:11,900
it's so diluted the game itself 
can't like main make any one of 

2279
02:16:11,900 --> 02:16:16,700
those things, be terribly 
important unless it does in 

2280
02:16:16,700 --> 02:16:19,500
which case like you have to push
into. 

2281
02:16:19,900 --> 02:16:23,700
Yeah, it there's just so many 
there that it makes the game. 

2282
02:16:25,700 --> 02:16:30,400
Like I feel like that one 
decision has made the game more 

2283
02:16:30,400 --> 02:16:34,600
complicated in a way, that is 
unhelpful. 

2284
02:16:35,900 --> 02:16:38,200
Hmm. 
I don't know if I quite agree 

2285
02:16:38,200 --> 02:16:41,200
with that but I do agree with 
the idea. 

2286
02:16:41,900 --> 02:16:44,400
It would be interesting if they 
were less skills, such that you 

2287
02:16:44,400 --> 02:16:47,600
kind of got a sense of like half
of them on any given plate. 

2288
02:16:48,299 --> 02:16:50,799
And then you could pretty 
reasonably, say like, okay, one 

2289
02:16:50,799 --> 02:16:52,799
more play through and I'd see 
the rest and I think that would 

2290
02:16:52,799 --> 02:16:56,000
make replace feel better. 
Well, I'm getting The other half

2291
02:16:56,000 --> 02:16:59,600
now. 
I feel like you got four ish. 

2292
02:17:00,000 --> 02:17:04,200
Yeah. 
For skills, like meaningfully. 

2293
02:17:04,200 --> 02:17:06,799
Yeah. 
Man. 

2294
02:17:06,799 --> 02:17:11,900
Yeah I don't know. 
They like like I said I've 

2295
02:17:12,299 --> 02:17:15,100
played the first day three or 
four times, right? 

2296
02:17:15,500 --> 02:17:19,000
And even now the last time I 
played, I know that my 

2297
02:17:19,000 --> 02:17:23,400
encyclopedias real hard. 
But even like the logic of see 

2298
02:17:23,400 --> 02:17:25,299
if I can remember some of the 
other ones that are in blue, 

2299
02:17:25,299 --> 02:17:27,500
right? 
There's drama. 

2300
02:17:27,500 --> 02:17:31,799
There's visual calculus. 
Okay. 

2301
02:17:31,799 --> 02:17:34,100
I remembered for and I think 
there are eight of them right? 

2302
02:17:34,100 --> 02:17:35,500
I can't even remember what the 
other. 

2303
02:17:35,799 --> 02:17:40,100
Our and there's six of them, 
it's logically cyclopedia 

2304
02:17:40,299 --> 02:17:45,600
rhetoric drama conceptualization
visual calculus, my push back to

2305
02:17:45,600 --> 02:17:50,299
that will is that these aren't 
adding events to? 

2306
02:17:50,299 --> 02:17:53,900
Well they do they don't add that
many events to the game. 

2307
02:17:53,900 --> 02:17:56,000
Right there, affecting the 
flavor text, you get, right? 

2308
02:17:56,000 --> 02:17:59,600
So it is more of a choice than 
I'm not getting the game because

2309
02:17:59,600 --> 02:18:04,100
I didn't see these But it's your
Counterpoint of in cyber 

2310
02:18:04,100 --> 02:18:05,299
attacks. 
Pretty much has. 

2311
02:18:05,799 --> 02:18:08,700
Yeah, that like, flavor, text 
changes how you experience the 

2312
02:18:08,700 --> 02:18:13,000
game, like fundamentally also. 
That's that is the reason to 

2313
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:15,000
replay it, right? 
Is all different flavor. 

2314
02:18:15,600 --> 02:18:21,400
This double points thing. 
Of thought cabinet and no, I 

2315
02:18:21,400 --> 02:18:26,700
mean, that your skill level adds
like a base point. 

2316
02:18:26,900 --> 02:18:29,900
Oh yeah. 
That's the amount that you can 

2317
02:18:29,900 --> 02:18:34,700
put into it. 
Yeah, that's interesting. it's 

2318
02:18:35,500 --> 02:18:41,500
it's interesting and Incredibly 
complicated and like it also 

2319
02:18:41,500 --> 02:18:47,400
like you can fuck yourself up 
early because I chose My can 

2320
02:18:47,400 --> 02:18:52,000
elect as one of the places and I
didn't end up going down those 

2321
02:18:52,000 --> 02:18:54,100
paths. 
Imagine my playthrough where I 

2322
02:18:54,100 --> 02:18:57,000
was one point on two of the four
categories. 

2323
02:18:58,100 --> 02:19:00,400
Yeah, that seems rough. 
Like this is like that. 

2324
02:19:01,100 --> 02:19:03,400
I'm surprised I didn't block you
on certain things. 

2325
02:19:03,500 --> 02:19:06,100
Like, I'm surprised you could 
finish the game to be honest. 

2326
02:19:06,600 --> 02:19:10,100
But I mean, even if you put one 
point in right, it still takes 

2327
02:19:10,100 --> 02:19:14,400
you three levels to max out. 
One of those skills. 

2328
02:19:14,400 --> 02:19:18,400
Three levels take is like hours 
worth of gameplay. 

2329
02:19:18,900 --> 02:19:22,600
Now, like if I wanted to, if I 
was at level 1 logic, wanted to 

2330
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:25,100
max out my logic because I 
thought it was important for 

2331
02:19:25,100 --> 02:19:27,799
some reason that we're talking 
hours of gameplay. 

2332
02:19:27,900 --> 02:19:32,500
To be able to check that and and
get to the point where I and if 

2333
02:19:32,500 --> 02:19:34,799
it's my first time playing, I 
don't even know that that's the 

2334
02:19:35,299 --> 02:19:38,500
most that I could go right? 
Like right now. 

2335
02:19:38,600 --> 02:19:43,900
Oh man, this system is raw in 
that it that it doesn't explain 

2336
02:19:43,900 --> 02:19:49,100
enough to tell you. 
Yeah, it wouldn't have been that

2337
02:19:49,100 --> 02:19:52,200
place also for me, where I was 
fearful to spend my skill points

2338
02:19:52,200 --> 02:19:53,600
because it was like you were 
getting them. 

2339
02:19:53,600 --> 02:19:58,400
So sporadically that I was like 
if I put this into a place that 

2340
02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:01,100
I wanted so I can get to unlock 
a check. 

2341
02:20:01,500 --> 02:20:06,200
I know it's going to be a bunch 
of time before I can get enough 

2342
02:20:06,200 --> 02:20:08,400
experience. 
And I'm not exactly sure. 

2343
02:20:08,400 --> 02:20:13,700
Where I will be able to get that
experience from To get the next 

2344
02:20:13,700 --> 02:20:18,000
skill point and that piece was 
actually a pretty challenging 

2345
02:20:18,000 --> 02:20:21,100
part of the experience. 
Did you guys get to a point 

2346
02:20:21,100 --> 02:20:27,200
where you would get a skill 
point and then not a sign it 

2347
02:20:27,500 --> 02:20:30,800
until you had like failed at 
skill check? 

2348
02:20:32,000 --> 02:20:33,400
That's where I was at this 
point. 

2349
02:20:34,100 --> 02:20:36,100
No. 
But that's very smart. 

2350
02:20:36,500 --> 02:20:42,000
I definitely had with held using
a skill point not knowing where 

2351
02:20:42,000 --> 02:20:46,600
what skill checks I would come 
up against and then would like 

2352
02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:49,100
spend it appropriately once? 
I knew that. 

2353
02:20:49,400 --> 02:20:52,500
Well, you guys are being such 
Gamers about this though. 

2354
02:20:52,500 --> 02:20:55,800
Yeah. 
I think but I think that's it's 

2355
02:20:56,500 --> 02:21:00,000
the place where I was in the 
game and maybe this is because 

2356
02:21:00,000 --> 02:21:01,600
on day two and I didn't have 
enough things. 

2357
02:21:01,700 --> 02:21:04,000
Is unlocked. 
But like I looked at my map and 

2358
02:21:04,000 --> 02:21:07,300
it's like these are the sticks 
skill checks that are available 

2359
02:21:07,300 --> 02:21:10,400
to you. 
I've I went over the entire 

2360
02:21:10,400 --> 02:21:12,800
world twice, there's nothing 
more to unlock. 

2361
02:21:13,000 --> 02:21:14,500
The only things that are 
available to me. 

2362
02:21:14,500 --> 02:21:19,700
Are these 6 skill checks and so 
the next time I got a point I 

2363
02:21:19,700 --> 02:21:22,600
basically have to put it into 
one of these six things 

2364
02:21:22,600 --> 02:21:25,800
otherwise I'm just not making 
any progress in this game at 

2365
02:21:25,800 --> 02:21:28,300
all. 
That is like a failing of the 

2366
02:21:28,300 --> 02:21:30,700
game were later in the game. 
When you've opened up, like 

2367
02:21:30,700 --> 02:21:34,600
there's like 30 skill chains in 
your, like, your skill checks to

2368
02:21:34,600 --> 02:21:37,200
do and you're like cool. 
I'm not going to be able to do 

2369
02:21:37,200 --> 02:21:40,300
all of those and like you 
recognize that but like that 

2370
02:21:40,300 --> 02:21:42,700
learning happens. 
Way late in the game in my 

2371
02:21:42,700 --> 02:21:46,300
opinion. 
Yeah, I don't feel like I ever 

2372
02:21:46,900 --> 02:21:50,800
and I don't know why I felt this
way, but I never felt that those

2373
02:21:50,800 --> 02:21:53,400
skill checks were a means to 
guide me towards something. 

2374
02:21:53,400 --> 02:21:57,000
I felt very confident that no 
matter what points I put where I

2375
02:21:57,008 --> 02:22:01,500
would be able to beat the game. 
And apparently especially Prix 

2376
02:22:01,500 --> 02:22:03,700
Final Cut. 
That's not quite true. 

2377
02:22:03,800 --> 02:22:06,000
There were some. 
I think that was the intention 

2378
02:22:06,000 --> 02:22:09,600
of the developer though. 
Yeah, I think that your good 

2379
02:22:09,600 --> 02:22:12,000
faith argument. 
I think is what they intended to

2380
02:22:12,000 --> 02:22:17,900
be true but you don't you if 
you've played other games it's 

2381
02:22:17,900 --> 02:22:21,100
unlikely that you're going to 
like I don't think they should 

2382
02:22:21,100 --> 02:22:24,400
have to clarify that but also 
this doesn't exist in a vacuum. 

2383
02:22:24,400 --> 02:22:27,300
You're coming from other games 
where that's literally a 

2384
02:22:27,308 --> 02:22:28,600
legitimate way for the game to 
be. 

2385
02:22:28,600 --> 02:22:31,800
Telling you, exactly. 
To be doing true, that screen is

2386
02:22:31,800 --> 02:22:33,600
there, right? 
Here's the things you need 

2387
02:22:33,600 --> 02:22:38,600
points on. 
So like As much as I don't like 

2388
02:22:38,700 --> 02:22:40,700
assigning responsibility. 
The game to tell you that I 

2389
02:22:40,700 --> 02:22:42,700
think it's a great point. 
You make well it probably should

2390
02:22:42,700 --> 02:22:45,500
have some way of throwing it to 
you like you don't you're not 

2391
02:22:45,500 --> 02:22:48,400
going to do all these. 
All right I mean I was here 

2392
02:22:48,400 --> 02:22:52,200
earlier today so let's talk 
about that for just a second 

2393
02:22:52,600 --> 02:22:58,000
because I got to a point where 
and I feel like you had talked 

2394
02:22:58,000 --> 02:22:59,900
to me about this kind of point 
before. 

2395
02:22:59,900 --> 02:23:03,500
So I feel like you've gotten to 
the similar point but like I 

2396
02:23:03,508 --> 02:23:05,400
said, I explored the entire 
world. 

2397
02:23:06,500 --> 02:23:10,000
I couldn't because of various 
skill checks. 

2398
02:23:10,000 --> 02:23:11,600
I couldn't make any more 
progress. 

2399
02:23:11,800 --> 02:23:14,800
I knew that there were progress 
has be just because of my 

2400
02:23:14,800 --> 02:23:18,100
previous playthroughs like 
getting into that hotel that I 

2401
02:23:18,108 --> 02:23:19,800
couldn't get to through the 
bookstore. 

2402
02:23:20,100 --> 02:23:24,400
Like I I couldn't figure out 
that somebody actually shot the 

2403
02:23:24,400 --> 02:23:27,500
guy, the hanged man. 
Like I knew there were things 

2404
02:23:27,500 --> 02:23:31,500
that I could as soon as I like 
breach these thresholds. 

2405
02:23:31,500 --> 02:23:34,300
There would be entire parts of 
the story but I got to a point 

2406
02:23:34,300 --> 02:23:37,100
where it's like, I can't make 
any more progress here. 

2407
02:23:37,100 --> 02:23:40,700
I see these skill checks. 
These are the I know that these 

2408
02:23:40,708 --> 02:23:43,700
are the things that would allow 
me to like, break open parts of 

2409
02:23:43,708 --> 02:23:46,800
the story. 
And I only passed forward was to

2410
02:23:46,800 --> 02:23:51,600
sit and read my books until the 
time progressed to a place where

2411
02:23:51,600 --> 02:23:55,200
I could find some more 
conversations to get the skill 

2412
02:23:55,200 --> 02:23:57,000
points to break. 
Open those things. 

2413
02:23:57,000 --> 02:23:59,800
Is there something else I could 
have been, or should have been 

2414
02:23:59,800 --> 02:24:02,500
doing thinking about a different
way to approach the game? 

2415
02:24:02,500 --> 02:24:08,700
Like you make it seem like, I'm 
like having these skill checks 

2416
02:24:09,200 --> 02:24:14,400
was a constraint, I put upon 
myself, but from my perspective 

2417
02:24:14,400 --> 02:24:16,000
it seem like. 
That's the only way to progress 

2418
02:24:16,000 --> 02:24:17,300
in the game. 
Yeah, you're right. 

2419
02:24:17,300 --> 02:24:19,700
The whole middle of this game 
was really hard for me. 

2420
02:24:19,700 --> 02:24:21,900
I had to figure out how to pass 
time. 

2421
02:24:22,100 --> 02:24:24,400
Turns out, if you have your case
book completed, you can read it 

2422
02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:29,000
to pass infinite amounts of 
time, which I did not know, / 

2423
02:24:29,000 --> 02:24:30,500
didn't know as a thing in the 
base game. 

2424
02:24:30,700 --> 02:24:33,800
So, I had real problems passing 
time, and it's funny to me that 

2425
02:24:33,800 --> 02:24:36,300
I just thought, I'll just pass. 
Time until the next day. 

2426
02:24:36,300 --> 02:24:37,800
Then plot things will move 
forward. 

2427
02:24:37,800 --> 02:24:40,600
I never really looked at it like
I'm going to spec things 

2428
02:24:40,600 --> 02:24:42,500
differently to unlock a new 
skill check. 

2429
02:24:43,600 --> 02:24:46,100
So in that sense that's just me 
being dumb. 

2430
02:24:46,200 --> 02:24:47,800
Well I mean I don't mean it's 
you mean don't worry? 

2431
02:24:47,800 --> 02:24:49,200
Yeah I don't think it's you 
dumb. 

2432
02:24:49,200 --> 02:24:52,000
I had more contacts because I 
had replayed it three times, 

2433
02:24:52,000 --> 02:24:55,500
right? 
there was for me, there were 

2434
02:24:55,500 --> 02:25:00,400
specific places where by like 
happenstance into another 

2435
02:25:00,400 --> 02:25:02,000
conversation or something that 
happened. 

2436
02:25:02,000 --> 02:25:05,500
I thought that I was blocked and
that the skill checks were the 

2437
02:25:05,500 --> 02:25:07,600
only way forward and then I 
would find. 

2438
02:25:08,000 --> 02:25:10,900
So if I go down a different 
conversational path, even with 

2439
02:25:10,900 --> 02:25:13,000
someone that I had talked to, 
and I thought that I had 

2440
02:25:13,000 --> 02:25:17,400
finished all of the potential 
options there like something 

2441
02:25:17,400 --> 02:25:23,100
else opened up, or you would get
in the space where I think there

2442
02:25:23,108 --> 02:25:27,400
was a couple times where it's 
like, hey, I think like I feel 

2443
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:31,800
blocked and I think I had just 
gone to bed and that opened up 

2444
02:25:31,800 --> 02:25:34,400
like one new Avenue. 
And like when I pulled that 

2445
02:25:34,400 --> 02:25:38,800
threaded opened up other threads
but there is definitely early 

2446
02:25:38,800 --> 02:25:42,300
Parts in the game. 
In that first like, ten hours 

2447
02:25:42,300 --> 02:25:46,200
section where I was, I felt I 
definitely thought I was blocked

2448
02:25:46,200 --> 02:25:49,900
by skill checks and was 
frustrated by it and they found 

2449
02:25:49,900 --> 02:25:53,400
like, okay, there, there always 
Seems to be something else 

2450
02:25:53,400 --> 02:25:57,000
around but it is, it did feel 
obtuse and obscure and some 

2451
02:25:57,000 --> 02:26:01,800
capacities can I can I bring up 
one more thing that sure. 

2452
02:26:01,900 --> 02:26:08,500
Jerked me a little bit, but was 
a one of my gaming mentors as 

2453
02:26:08,500 --> 02:26:11,000
you were really hated about this
game. 

2454
02:26:11,700 --> 02:26:17,700
If you follow a conversation 
tree and you have followed a 

2455
02:26:18,200 --> 02:26:22,200
node of that tree before the 
node will be grayed out. 

2456
02:26:22,600 --> 02:26:26,900
Even if there are leaves under 
that node that have not been. 

2457
02:26:27,200 --> 02:26:29,300
That is right now. 
That is annoying. 

2458
02:26:29,300 --> 02:26:32,300
That is yeah. 
And that does happen. 

2459
02:26:32,600 --> 02:26:35,600
I think the frustrating that 
part of the reason this game 

2460
02:26:35,600 --> 02:26:38,600
worked for me is very early. 
I was like, I'm not going to 

2461
02:26:38,600 --> 02:26:42,100
play this as a typical narrative
Quest like tree where I'm going 

2462
02:26:42,100 --> 02:26:44,200
to like, just complete all the 
things. 

2463
02:26:44,700 --> 02:26:47,800
And I think if you do that this 
game, sort of, I think that 

2464
02:26:47,800 --> 02:26:51,400
actually pushes you down. 
The, he doesn't actually, but I 

2465
02:26:51,400 --> 02:26:54,100
feel like it pushes you down the
Centrist path, kind of, right? 

2466
02:26:54,100 --> 02:26:57,300
Like if you're playing this to 
see all the dialogue choices, 

2467
02:26:57,300 --> 02:26:59,200
you're probably going to pick 
the most neutral option and I 

2468
02:26:59,200 --> 02:27:00,900
think that's part of why? 
The games making fun of you. 

2469
02:27:01,000 --> 02:27:03,100
You. 
But I think it's, because of 

2470
02:27:03,100 --> 02:27:06,400
that, that I didn't worry too 
much about unseen diagonal 

2471
02:27:06,400 --> 02:27:08,800
dialogue options, that, that 
helped me to like, keep in the 

2472
02:27:08,900 --> 02:27:12,800
zone of enjoying it, but it is 
like, that has to be a design 

2473
02:27:12,800 --> 02:27:15,600
choice, right? 
Like, that can't be it. 

2474
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:18,000
Just seems very strange. 
I agree that it's annoying. 

2475
02:27:18,700 --> 02:27:24,500
Yeah, it feels like that. 
Could have been expressed or 

2476
02:27:24,500 --> 02:27:29,000
said at some point, right? 
All these choices, make sense 

2477
02:27:29,000 --> 02:27:31,700
and are valid and are valid game
design choices. 

2478
02:27:32,900 --> 02:27:36,200
I would just like the game to 
tell me that instead of me 

2479
02:27:36,200 --> 02:27:39,300
needing to figure it out 
through, like Brute Force. 

2480
02:27:39,900 --> 02:27:43,100
Oh, I spent 3 hours of this 
game. 

2481
02:27:43,100 --> 02:27:44,500
Not realizing there was a 
choice. 

2482
02:27:44,500 --> 02:27:46,900
I could make because it was 
hidden behind something. 

2483
02:27:47,000 --> 02:27:50,900
Absolutely, I think I think that
you specifically called out to 

2484
02:27:50,900 --> 02:27:56,000
me that time only progresses 
when you make choices, I'm 

2485
02:27:56,000 --> 02:27:59,200
skeptical that I would have 
noticed, or how soon I would 

2486
02:27:59,200 --> 02:28:00,900
have noticed that, that was 
happening. 

2487
02:28:01,300 --> 02:28:03,200
I recently on They knew that by 
reading. 

2488
02:28:03,500 --> 02:28:07,300
Like I think there's a certain 
point that it maybe they added 

2489
02:28:07,300 --> 02:28:10,200
as in the Final Cup. 
There's something that like I 

2490
02:28:10,200 --> 02:28:15,400
believe Kim says, Hey like we 
need to turn in for the night. 

2491
02:28:15,400 --> 02:28:17,900
There's nothing more you can do 
today or something of that 

2492
02:28:17,900 --> 02:28:20,700
nature that does happen like at 
the end of the day. 

2493
02:28:20,700 --> 02:28:27,600
Yeah, there's one conversation 
item where the system says, if 

2494
02:28:27,600 --> 02:28:31,600
you make if you have this 
conversation Choice before you 

2495
02:28:31,600 --> 02:28:35,000
have this Conversation Choice, 
bad things will happen. 

2496
02:28:35,800 --> 02:28:40,200
And I was like whoa what really?
And that's the only time I saw 

2497
02:28:40,200 --> 02:28:44,500
that happen in the game. 
Does that happen everywhere 

2498
02:28:44,500 --> 02:28:46,600
else? 
Yeah, I don't remember that 

2499
02:28:46,600 --> 02:28:48,900
happening. 
This specific example, they give

2500
02:28:49,100 --> 02:28:54,100
is when you talk to the 
bartender who's not a bartender.

2501
02:28:54,200 --> 02:28:58,700
Whatever his name is boy, that's
funny cart cart. 

2502
02:28:59,200 --> 02:29:03,000
If you like ask him some 
context, he'll give you some 

2503
02:29:03,000 --> 02:29:07,200
information about the context 
and then you ask him whether or 

2504
02:29:07,208 --> 02:29:11,100
not he killed the guy and that 
like pisses him off, right? 

2505
02:29:11,100 --> 02:29:14,200
So if you piss him, Woof first. 
He won't give you the context 

2506
02:29:14,200 --> 02:29:16,900
from that initial question. 
I'm sure that's happening. 

2507
02:29:16,900 --> 02:29:18,900
All throughout the game. 
I don't think you're supposed to

2508
02:29:18,900 --> 02:29:20,500
like game for that though, 
right? 

2509
02:29:22,300 --> 02:29:26,300
Yeah, but that's another tricky.
If it's actually a conversation 

2510
02:29:26,300 --> 02:29:27,900
simulator, you don't. 
Yeah. 

2511
02:29:27,900 --> 02:29:30,700
But like it's like, how are you 
thinking about those options, 

2512
02:29:30,700 --> 02:29:32,300
right? 
It's like what you were saying, 

2513
02:29:32,300 --> 02:29:34,800
right? 
Am I picking all four options? 

2514
02:29:34,800 --> 02:29:37,400
Because they were gray and or 
before because they were white 

2515
02:29:37,400 --> 02:29:39,500
and now they become gray. 
So I'm just going through the 

2516
02:29:39,500 --> 02:29:42,200
list or am I actually thinking 
about Out. 

2517
02:29:42,400 --> 02:29:46,100
Okay, because I've said this, 
that changes his contacts, that 

2518
02:29:46,100 --> 02:29:49,800
changes his perception of me, 
that changes the flow of the 

2519
02:29:49,800 --> 02:29:52,800
conversations are now, this 
other option won't make sense 

2520
02:29:52,800 --> 02:29:59,400
anymore, like, right? 
That The having that happen in 

2521
02:29:59,400 --> 02:30:01,600
theory. 
Sounds really cool. 

2522
02:30:01,600 --> 02:30:04,000
But I didn't actually see that 
happening in the game. 

2523
02:30:05,000 --> 02:30:06,700
Well, I don't know if you would 
see it, right? 

2524
02:30:06,700 --> 02:30:08,700
You would never know if that was
happening, if it wasn't being 

2525
02:30:08,700 --> 02:30:14,800
called out. 
Yeah, I mean yeah. 

2526
02:30:14,800 --> 02:30:17,900
But the game could tell me that 
in a couple of ways, right? 

2527
02:30:18,700 --> 02:30:21,100
You could say what? 
I'm not going to tell you that 

2528
02:30:21,200 --> 02:30:25,600
you just called me a racist. 
Or, you know, something like 

2529
02:30:25,600 --> 02:30:28,800
that, right? 
Feel like stuff like that does 

2530
02:30:28,800 --> 02:30:30,700
happen. 
And what do you think Craig like

2531
02:30:33,500 --> 02:30:35,900
Not that, you know, it's fucking
interesting. 

2532
02:30:35,900 --> 02:30:41,100
If you're a forget, what it if 
you see it on the still checks, 

2533
02:30:42,500 --> 02:30:46,300
Yes, there's that. 
If you're a communist and an 

2534
02:30:46,300 --> 02:30:51,300
authoritarian at the end, Kim 
says like, I have no idea how 

2535
02:30:51,300 --> 02:30:55,100
you have these two viewpoints. 
They make no sense together like

2536
02:30:55,500 --> 02:30:58,300
there's, that's amazing, but 
that doesn't happen that often. 

2537
02:30:58,300 --> 02:31:00,200
You're more often. 
You just like, oh, here's the 

2538
02:31:00,200 --> 02:31:02,500
thing because your communist. 
Oh, here's another thing because

2539
02:31:02,500 --> 02:31:05,900
you're an authoritarian, right? 
And that's probably just because

2540
02:31:05,900 --> 02:31:11,800
they only had 20 Riders not like
Hades number Wonder. 

2541
02:31:12,300 --> 02:31:16,100
Yeah, you think Hades had more 
or less dialogue in this game. 

2542
02:31:16,100 --> 02:31:18,500
I would assume less I definitely
assume less. 

2543
02:31:18,900 --> 02:31:22,000
Yeah. 
So, how much how many times more

2544
02:31:22,100 --> 02:31:24,200
words? 
Do you guys want to bet the 

2545
02:31:24,200 --> 02:31:29,500
Disco Elysium has than Hades? 
So I seen a man. 

2546
02:31:29,800 --> 02:31:32,300
So so good question because I've
seen multiple reports on how 

2547
02:31:32,308 --> 02:31:39,500
many words are in Disco Elysium.
So I would guess four times the 

2548
02:31:39,508 --> 02:31:45,400
amount of words in Disco Elysium
than Hades. 55 times. 

2549
02:31:45,700 --> 02:31:47,900
Okay. 
It's two hundred thousand words 

2550
02:31:48,000 --> 02:31:49,500
of which are dialogue. 
Okay. 

2551
02:31:49,500 --> 02:31:55,100
Thousand words total, I guess 
time I guess was 54 Hades and 

2552
02:31:55,100 --> 02:31:59,200
204 disco. 
I think it's 200 and a million 

2553
02:31:59,500 --> 02:32:01,200
shit. 
She's I had. 

2554
02:32:01,200 --> 02:32:03,900
So I had seen the Million number
come up, but I couldn't find a 

2555
02:32:03,908 --> 02:32:07,300
way to confirm it. 
All they've said, you were over 

2556
02:32:07,300 --> 02:32:09,700
a million. 
How many words are in War and 

2557
02:32:09,700 --> 02:32:12,500
Peace? 
It's the Benchmark. 

2558
02:32:12,500 --> 02:32:14,300
Isn't it? 
To me? 

2559
02:32:14,300 --> 02:32:18,500
It like warm pieces, only five 
hundred eighty seven thousand, 

2560
02:32:19,400 --> 02:32:22,300
that's incredible. 
I would love to know. 

2561
02:32:22,600 --> 02:32:25,100
This would be much more helpful 
if we knew how many words were 

2562
02:32:25,100 --> 02:32:27,300
in the average playthrough of 
disco Elysium. 

2563
02:32:28,100 --> 02:32:30,400
Oh, that's true. 
Because they're being a million 

2564
02:32:30,400 --> 02:32:31,700
words. 
Probably means that the average 

2565
02:32:31,700 --> 02:32:37,600
player sees, I okay in 80 Days. 
The developer said that there 

2566
02:32:37,600 --> 02:32:40,900
are God, I don't remember the 
number of words but I believe 

2567
02:32:40,900 --> 02:32:43,500
it's one point five times as 
many words as did as War and 

2568
02:32:43,500 --> 02:32:47,100
Peace and the average player 
sees three percent of those 

2569
02:32:47,100 --> 02:32:51,100
words in one playthrough light 
and 80 days is heralded as like 

2570
02:32:51,400 --> 02:32:53,900
a landmark in which I've never 
played. 

2571
02:32:53,900 --> 02:32:57,300
So I don't know why that is like
should - lets all mobile game 

2572
02:32:57,300 --> 02:33:00,100
first wasn't uh it's not words 
started. 

2573
02:33:00,100 --> 02:33:01,900
I think so. 
Yeah. 

2574
02:33:03,100 --> 02:33:05,200
Anyways. 
Alright, last. 

2575
02:33:05,400 --> 02:33:10,400
Last Hot Topic, any interest in 
discussing Dolores de, I just 

2576
02:33:10,400 --> 02:33:13,700
heard that she was a person. 
I don't know who she is, but 

2577
02:33:13,700 --> 02:33:18,200
just figure from 300 years ago 
in the game, or real life and 

2578
02:33:18,300 --> 02:33:21,800
knowing the game. 
I was curious. 

2579
02:33:22,400 --> 02:33:26,800
Did we have Dolores de? 
I'm only interested in because 

2580
02:33:26,800 --> 02:33:29,400
of the way she conflates, 
whether ex-wife, I've heard 

2581
02:33:29,400 --> 02:33:31,900
people describe the ex-wife 
thing is the least interesting 

2582
02:33:31,900 --> 02:33:34,900
thing part of this game. 
But I thought it was beautiful 

2583
02:33:34,900 --> 02:33:36,800
and cool. 
Every time it came up and I 

2584
02:33:36,808 --> 02:33:40,300
didn't pursue it very far. 
Just every time you have these 

2585
02:33:40,300 --> 02:33:43,200
like fractured memories of your 
ex-wife, I just thought it was 

2586
02:33:43,200 --> 02:33:46,000
really cool. 
I think there's there's really 

2587
02:33:46,000 --> 02:33:50,500
interesting things about what 
that says about you about a In 

2588
02:33:50,500 --> 02:33:53,600
of yourself, there's like, I 
even there was like some hints 

2589
02:33:53,600 --> 02:33:57,900
of like codependency of like you
lose yourself without this 

2590
02:33:57,900 --> 02:34:00,900
person also, in like, when she 
leaves, you become alcoholic, 

2591
02:34:00,900 --> 02:34:02,600
that is not a healthy 
relationship. 

2592
02:34:02,600 --> 02:34:05,900
Says my therapist. 
Yeah, there's that. 

2593
02:34:05,900 --> 02:34:10,900
And then I left her don't. 
Mmm, don't worry. 

2594
02:34:10,900 --> 02:34:13,400
Yeah, exactly. 
Doris. 

2595
02:34:13,400 --> 02:34:18,100
Also is like a Godly figure in 
the world and worshipped, right?

2596
02:34:18,100 --> 02:34:23,300
Like the church is an altered to
Dolores and conflating her with 

2597
02:34:23,300 --> 02:34:26,700
your wife, like you and like 
worshipping your relationship to

2598
02:34:26,700 --> 02:34:29,100
your wife. 
Like they're there is a slot 

2599
02:34:29,100 --> 02:34:30,600
going on here. 
Yeah. 

2600
02:34:31,000 --> 02:34:35,800
This feels like one of those 
things where I would trust that 

2601
02:34:35,800 --> 02:34:38,400
the author has a whole shit 
time. 

2602
02:34:38,400 --> 02:34:41,100
There's another 500,000 words 
that they could probably say 

2603
02:34:41,100 --> 02:34:43,200
about, like what this 
relationship is. 

2604
02:34:43,400 --> 02:34:46,400
And it probably honestly, I am 
curious. 

2605
02:34:46,400 --> 02:34:48,700
If there's like more of this 
that was on The Cutting Room 

2606
02:34:48,700 --> 02:34:51,700
floor for the game. 
I'm curious too because it's 

2607
02:34:51,700 --> 02:34:55,600
like a thread that's pulled on 
but you can actually like, pull 

2608
02:34:55,600 --> 02:34:57,900
the entire thread where a lot of
the rest of the game, you can 

2609
02:34:57,900 --> 02:35:00,100
like keep pulling and doesn't 
feel like you ever get to the 

2610
02:35:00,100 --> 02:35:04,000
end of the line where this sits 
there kind of is there's a bust 

2611
02:35:04,000 --> 02:35:09,300
in the This room and you're 
like, hey, that bust kind of 

2612
02:35:09,300 --> 02:35:11,000
looks like me. 
And you have a whole 

2613
02:35:11,000 --> 02:35:16,500
conversation with Kim whether or
not you are the, the man on the 

2614
02:35:16,500 --> 02:35:20,800
bust and he's like, well, that 
guy died five or fifty years to 

2615
02:35:20,800 --> 02:35:24,400
get home. 
And you go back and forth. 

2616
02:35:24,600 --> 02:35:27,100
And for me at the end of that is
like turns out. 

2617
02:35:27,100 --> 02:35:29,300
I'm not the most famous 
philosopher of the modern 

2618
02:35:29,300 --> 02:35:32,500
period. 
We eventually agreed on that. 

2619
02:35:32,600 --> 02:35:37,800
But like, I bring it up in the 
light context that this 

2620
02:35:37,800 --> 02:35:45,200
configuration comes conflation. 
The inflation cross ideas that, 

2621
02:35:45,200 --> 02:35:50,900
you know, you might be other 
super important ideas in the 

2622
02:35:51,200 --> 02:35:54,200
philosophical. 
Religious history of this world 

2623
02:35:54,200 --> 02:36:00,400
is not solely your ex-wife. 
Yeah, there's a bunch of. 

2624
02:36:00,700 --> 02:36:02,400
Yeah, that's a good point. 
Yeah. 

2625
02:36:03,400 --> 02:36:05,100
Yeah. 
You're basically saying like 

2626
02:36:05,100 --> 02:36:08,000
your character is extremely 
unreliable and just because 

2627
02:36:08,000 --> 02:36:11,800
you're mixing her up with 
Dolores de is not necessarily an

2628
02:36:11,800 --> 02:36:14,600
indication that you're having 
like christ-like allegorical 

2629
02:36:14,600 --> 02:36:18,600
comparisons with your ex-wife Or
vice versa. 

2630
02:36:19,000 --> 02:36:25,100
Maybe she is Dolores de and you 
are this philosophical or, you 

2631
02:36:25,100 --> 02:36:29,600
know, philosophy is really never
waited and and and and right. 

2632
02:36:30,400 --> 02:36:31,800
Yeah. 
All right. 

2633
02:36:32,400 --> 02:36:36,400
Yep, it's fun. 
Take us home. 

2634
02:36:37,000 --> 02:36:39,800
Whoo. 
Disco Elysium. 

2635
02:36:41,000 --> 02:36:43,700
What do we all think? 
What's are taking better as a 

2636
02:36:43,708 --> 02:36:45,400
racing game? 
Was it? 

2637
02:36:45,600 --> 02:36:47,600
I would love to see so much 
speed run it. 

2638
02:36:47,600 --> 02:36:50,900
I mean to be fair we know will 
doesn't even know the answer to 

2639
02:36:50,900 --> 02:36:54,200
this. 
You tried to play it as a racing

2640
02:36:54,200 --> 02:36:57,400
game and crashed your car into 
the ice, just outside the town 

2641
02:36:57,600 --> 02:37:01,400
three times. 
That is Their times. 

2642
02:37:01,400 --> 02:37:02,800
Yeah. 
Just kept. 

2643
02:37:03,400 --> 02:37:06,200
Kept it on starting every time 
he ended up with his truck in 

2644
02:37:06,200 --> 02:37:08,000
the ice. 
Thank God. 

2645
02:37:08,000 --> 02:37:10,500
Harry did was a genius? 
Yeah. 

2646
02:37:10,500 --> 02:37:14,700
Why don't I start? 
Um, I think that I am. 

2647
02:37:17,200 --> 02:37:19,800
I have a tendency to like RPGs 
in general. 

2648
02:37:20,400 --> 02:37:25,200
This is my kind of game. 
I think that the art style was 

2649
02:37:25,200 --> 02:37:28,200
pretty cool. 
I am glad that I got the Final 

2650
02:37:28,200 --> 02:37:33,600
Cut of this game because for me 
the voice acting was really 

2651
02:37:33,600 --> 02:37:37,200
important for me to be able to 
like buy into the this world and

2652
02:37:37,200 --> 02:37:42,900
these characters in general. 
I thought that I'm a big fan of 

2653
02:37:42,900 --> 02:37:47,500
like super complicated intricate
systems and A locking systems 

2654
02:37:47,700 --> 02:37:53,100
and I like this idea. 
I should go try and find this 

2655
02:37:53,100 --> 02:37:58,500
but there was somebody who is 
suggesting that like the way you

2656
02:37:58,500 --> 02:38:03,800
should build your game is that 
like 65% of your game, should be

2657
02:38:04,100 --> 02:38:10,200
available to every single player
30% of your game should require 

2658
02:38:10,200 --> 02:38:14,200
a little extra work to get to 
and 5% of your game should 

2659
02:38:14,200 --> 02:38:19,500
require like your or your super 
investing to try and get to the 

2660
02:38:19,700 --> 02:38:22,200
to see that outcome, right? 
So there's like five percent of 

2661
02:38:22,200 --> 02:38:24,200
your game. 
We should only be available to 

2662
02:38:24,600 --> 02:38:28,200
like the most religious Advent, 
players or game. 

2663
02:38:28,600 --> 02:38:32,900
So I like this idea that if I 
put in more work, I will get 

2664
02:38:32,900 --> 02:38:36,700
more out of this game. 
There are so many parts of this 

2665
02:38:36,700 --> 02:38:40,600
game that I feel were like, 
reaching out to me and like, 

2666
02:38:40,600 --> 02:38:47,200
would have been perfect for me. 
The problem for me was the in 

2667
02:38:47,200 --> 02:38:51,700
prochik in approachability, like
maybe it's the subject, maybe 

2668
02:38:51,700 --> 02:38:56,700
it's the the super hard cliff on
the onboarding, which I eat. 

2669
02:38:56,900 --> 02:39:01,000
You know, I really went. 
I feel like I went out of my way

2670
02:39:01,200 --> 02:39:05,300
to try to overcome. 
I really, really tried to buy 

2671
02:39:05,300 --> 02:39:10,300
into this game, and I wanted it 
to be something that I really 

2672
02:39:10,300 --> 02:39:15,100
enjoyed. 
I as sad as it makes me feel, I 

2673
02:39:15,100 --> 02:39:21,000
feel like this game wasn't a 
game for me as, as much as it 

2674
02:39:21,000 --> 02:39:23,300
feels like, it should have been 
a game for me. 

2675
02:39:23,500 --> 02:39:29,400
It just wasn't something for me.
And it's like, The mechanics in 

2676
02:39:29,400 --> 02:39:35,900
the and the systems and all of 
that was built and designed for 

2677
02:39:36,200 --> 02:39:42,100
someone like me in mind. 
But but the story the context, 

2678
02:39:42,700 --> 02:39:45,000
those kinds of things just 
wasn't for me. 

2679
02:39:45,300 --> 02:39:49,200
And it's like, it's a good sign 
for video games as an industry. 

2680
02:39:49,200 --> 02:39:57,500
We're getting so big that we can
build these specific experiences

2681
02:39:57,500 --> 02:40:00,900
for Specific kinds of people, 
like very specific kinds of 

2682
02:40:00,908 --> 02:40:03,300
people. 
This is a game for for people 

2683
02:40:03,300 --> 02:40:11,100
who like RPGs and are in to 
political Theory and are into 

2684
02:40:12,200 --> 02:40:17,700
like all these. 
It's a very it's it it seems 

2685
02:40:17,700 --> 02:40:22,100
like it's a great game. 
It's just sadly, it's just not 

2686
02:40:22,100 --> 02:40:31,100
for me so I'm I am. 
Sad is that? 

2687
02:40:31,100 --> 02:40:37,100
I am so impressed by this game 
that wasn't for me. 

2688
02:40:37,500 --> 02:40:42,200
I just beat Halo night and I 
know how you feel the most 

2689
02:40:42,200 --> 02:40:45,500
controversial thing that's ever 
been said on our podcast is that

2690
02:40:45,500 --> 02:40:47,600
Halo Nights defeat could elicit 
anything? 

2691
02:40:47,600 --> 02:40:50,300
Other than utter Transcendence 
in a direct express? 

2692
02:40:50,300 --> 02:40:53,700
Ticket To Heaven, are you going 
to finish it? 

2693
02:40:53,700 --> 02:40:58,300
Well, yeah, as I'm playing it, 
I'm like, oh, I want to play. 

2694
02:40:58,400 --> 02:41:01,500
Why this have I want three 
playthroughs of this game? 

2695
02:41:03,200 --> 02:41:06,100
But also, if we weren't 
podcasting about it, I would not

2696
02:41:06,100 --> 02:41:09,600
have picked it back up again. 
So it's really hard. 

2697
02:41:10,400 --> 02:41:12,600
No, I understand. 
I understand that feeling. 

2698
02:41:12,600 --> 02:41:15,800
Yeah. 
Is there mechanical tweaks that 

2699
02:41:15,800 --> 02:41:17,700
could have been made to ease you
into it? 

2700
02:41:17,700 --> 02:41:20,100
Such that you would have like 
enjoyed the end result or do you

2701
02:41:20,100 --> 02:41:21,900
just think the core premise of 
something? 

2702
02:41:21,900 --> 02:41:27,600
So, like, political and 
unapproachable is the issue. 

2703
02:41:29,100 --> 02:41:33,100
I talked about some of them, 
like I think there's too many 

2704
02:41:33,100 --> 02:41:37,500
skills. 
I think that what could those 

2705
02:41:37,500 --> 02:41:39,400
like changes have tipped you 
over? 

2706
02:41:39,400 --> 02:41:42,200
Do you think like fundamentally 
you'd still be confronting the 

2707
02:41:42,200 --> 02:41:43,700
fact that it's just not a game 
for you? 

2708
02:41:43,700 --> 02:41:45,500
But you just would have made it 
through easier. 

2709
02:41:48,400 --> 02:41:55,000
Yeah. 
Like I got I got closer than 

2710
02:41:55,500 --> 02:41:59,700
ever picking up encyclopedia 
like you suggested. 

2711
02:41:59,900 --> 02:42:07,000
If there was something even more
in that area, encyclopedia the 

2712
02:42:07,200 --> 02:42:10,800
elementary school of version of 
Encyclopedia like seriously, 

2713
02:42:10,800 --> 02:42:12,400
break this shit down. 
For me. 

2714
02:42:12,400 --> 02:42:15,800
I understand the concepts and 
the characters that that would 

2715
02:42:15,800 --> 02:42:20,300
have helped more or less skills.
I think what I've helped more 

2716
02:42:21,300 --> 02:42:24,900
for. 
Me which I wanted to do all 

2717
02:42:24,900 --> 02:42:26,800
that. 
Let's say there's Wikipedia 

2718
02:42:26,800 --> 02:42:29,500
integration with the game. 
So when you hover over communism

2719
02:42:29,800 --> 02:42:32,600
there's a one paragraph 
explanation of what that is. 

2720
02:42:33,100 --> 02:42:36,200
Like, if everything was made 
easier at the end of the day, do

2721
02:42:36,200 --> 02:42:39,400
you want to play a game? 
That's all about fully immersing

2722
02:42:39,400 --> 02:42:46,800
you and like this kind of world.
I like the idea of inhabiting 

2723
02:42:46,800 --> 02:42:52,500
the role of this character being
able to make choices that affect

2724
02:42:52,500 --> 02:42:59,400
my world having like the the 
choice of how I would approach a

2725
02:42:59,400 --> 02:43:04,500
situation like the systems part,
I loved. 

2726
02:43:04,800 --> 02:43:07,700
I think that like one of the 
other things we talked about a 

2727
02:43:07,700 --> 02:43:11,500
little bit earlier in the game 
like if they just short gave me 

2728
02:43:11,500 --> 02:43:13,400
some shortcuts on to what we're 
talking about. 

2729
02:43:13,500 --> 02:43:18,100
About you didn't need or I don't
feel like you needed to 

2730
02:43:18,100 --> 02:43:21,600
introduce 10 new races so that I
could figure out what the 

2731
02:43:21,600 --> 02:43:25,300
content like you tell me 10 
races and I still don't know 

2732
02:43:25,300 --> 02:43:27,500
what race Kim is. 
Do you guys know what race Kim 

2733
02:43:27,500 --> 02:43:31,500
is see all light, which is a 
combination of Japan and Korea. 

2734
02:43:33,300 --> 02:43:35,400
Okay. 
And it did, you know that crazy?

2735
02:43:35,600 --> 02:43:37,100
I'm just kidding. 
Just that I recipe. 

2736
02:43:37,700 --> 02:43:43,900
I know your soul light but I 
didn't know like what that given

2737
02:43:43,900 --> 02:43:46,100
that we don't exist in our 
world. 

2738
02:43:46,200 --> 02:43:48,300
But yes, I did. 
I knew that piece of bleep at 

2739
02:43:48,300 --> 02:43:49,900
least. 
Yeah. 

2740
02:43:49,900 --> 02:43:54,400
I feel like there's just a lot 
of I need to do the work to 

2741
02:43:54,400 --> 02:43:58,000
appreciate this game and I would
have just appreciated more. 

2742
02:43:58,000 --> 02:44:02,000
If the game did the work for me 
or gave me the shortcuts to 

2743
02:44:02,000 --> 02:44:05,900
allow me to enjoy and understand
as soon as we started. 

2744
02:44:06,700 --> 02:44:10,200
As soon as I started talking to 
the character about like, what 

2745
02:44:10,200 --> 02:44:14,600
is reality mean? 
What are this this concept of 

2746
02:44:14,600 --> 02:44:18,400
this like negative space between
the worlds? 

2747
02:44:18,400 --> 02:44:23,900
And this world isn't actually a 
sphere, and Like we're jumping 

2748
02:44:23,900 --> 02:44:28,900
between like dimensions on a 
weird interdimensional playing 

2749
02:44:28,900 --> 02:44:33,300
like, you guys started talking 
about, oh, there's an alien 

2750
02:44:33,300 --> 02:44:40,300
race, that's kind of creature, 
you know, puppeteering the way 

2751
02:44:40,300 --> 02:44:46,000
that that humanity is evolving. 
Like there's so many cool that 

2752
02:44:46,000 --> 02:44:50,900
cool ideas that I totally want 
to have seen and explored and 

2753
02:44:50,900 --> 02:44:56,100
thought about. 
And Experienced but yeah there. 

2754
02:44:56,300 --> 02:45:00,100
Yeah I'm like I like it was 
almost there. 

2755
02:45:00,800 --> 02:45:04,200
What I hear you saying is? 
Yes you do want to get there? 

2756
02:45:04,700 --> 02:45:07,700
I think the tragedy is that this
does happen just by sticking 

2757
02:45:07,700 --> 02:45:12,500
with it. 
I wish that there was a way to 

2758
02:45:12,500 --> 02:45:15,500
make that on-ramp more gentle, 
but it's interesting to me that 

2759
02:45:15,900 --> 02:45:18,500
I think the confusion you're 
experiencing is almost 

2760
02:45:18,500 --> 02:45:22,900
intentional. 
And I'm kind of curious to hear 

2761
02:45:22,900 --> 02:45:25,900
what Craig says about it. 
I'm going to go next to give, 

2762
02:45:25,900 --> 02:45:30,800
Greg something to kind of play 
off of when I think about disco 

2763
02:45:30,800 --> 02:45:36,000
Elysium and when I remember how 
it felt to play it, the metaphor

2764
02:45:36,000 --> 02:45:43,000
that comes to my mind is I feel 
like I was the video game sci-fi

2765
02:45:43,000 --> 02:45:48,000
fan watching no man's sky is 
Debut trailer in 2014. 

2766
02:45:48,800 --> 02:45:51,600
This is everything I want games 
to be. 

2767
02:45:52,200 --> 02:46:00,200
I think that this game is 
Suspect, it's just incredible. 

2768
02:46:00,200 --> 02:46:02,600
And I think that one thing 
that's cool about it, is, it is 

2769
02:46:02,600 --> 02:46:06,600
it it's certainly a high 
watermark for video game RPGs 

2770
02:46:06,600 --> 02:46:10,300
tons of people say that, that 
I'm a little worried about that 

2771
02:46:10,300 --> 02:46:12,800
because I think that that makes 
people thinking that they should

2772
02:46:12,800 --> 02:46:15,600
make a great RPG, try to make a 
disco Elysium. 

2773
02:46:15,600 --> 02:46:19,100
Like I don't think the in the 
medium needs more of that. 

2774
02:46:19,400 --> 02:46:22,100
It has its disco Elysium. 
So I'm a little worried about 

2775
02:46:22,100 --> 02:46:24,300
that. 
But I think, what's so 

2776
02:46:24,300 --> 02:46:28,600
spectacular about is, is it? 
I like, I genuinely and 

2777
02:46:28,600 --> 02:46:31,400
unironically think that it 
brings literature to new 

2778
02:46:31,400 --> 02:46:35,100
heights, and I think that where 
it really shines as a work is in

2779
02:46:35,100 --> 02:46:38,400
fiction and writing. 
If I know people that really 

2780
02:46:38,400 --> 02:46:41,000
like riding I would push them 
and that don't care about video 

2781
02:46:41,000 --> 02:46:43,200
games, I would still push them 
to play this game and that is 

2782
02:46:43,200 --> 02:46:46,700
something that I think games 
have always wanted to have good 

2783
02:46:46,700 --> 02:46:48,100
writing. 
There's always been this claim 

2784
02:46:48,100 --> 02:46:51,300
that games have good writing but
saying that I think is 

2785
02:46:53,700 --> 02:46:56,800
unexpected in the joy to have 
received in our lifetime. 

2786
02:46:58,600 --> 02:47:02,500
The skills, you can spec in this
game that give you sort of a, 

2787
02:47:02,500 --> 02:47:05,700
what? 
Just King things, calls the 

2788
02:47:06,300 --> 02:47:08,900
wandering Eye camera that 
Stephen King does so. 

2789
02:47:08,900 --> 02:47:12,100
Well, where you pull out from 
the world you're in, and you 

2790
02:47:12,100 --> 02:47:14,600
just get this big picture view 
of what's Happening elsewhere in

2791
02:47:14,600 --> 02:47:20,800
the world is just it's it's so 
beautiful to me and so it's 

2792
02:47:20,800 --> 02:47:27,000
everything I go to literature 
for its It's the way I want to 

2793
02:47:27,008 --> 02:47:29,100
be able to think about life on 
our planet. 

2794
02:47:29,200 --> 02:47:34,000
It's what I want to understand 
more cultures for to be able to 

2795
02:47:34,000 --> 02:47:37,000
pull out from the present and 
think in a bigger context. 

2796
02:47:38,100 --> 02:47:43,500
I feel you will. 
I think it's it's a tough on 

2797
02:47:43,500 --> 02:47:46,800
ramp but I love the confidence 
that this game has. 

2798
02:47:46,800 --> 02:47:50,100
It doesn't try to onboard you. 
It gives you enough to let you 

2799
02:47:50,100 --> 02:47:52,700
figure it out but it's kind of 
up to you to do the work. 

2800
02:47:52,800 --> 02:47:58,900
I think that's just amazing. 
I've I don't think I can't think

2801
02:47:58,900 --> 02:48:01,600
of many other games that have 
such foreign settings that don't

2802
02:48:01,600 --> 02:48:06,800
sort of like gently walk you 
into it like you're a newcomer 

2803
02:48:06,900 --> 02:48:11,800
and I I don't know, I'm kind of 
running out of words for that 

2804
02:48:11,800 --> 02:48:16,600
particular feeling, but I just 
think it's very Very impressive.

2805
02:48:17,500 --> 02:48:20,900
I'm the politics of the world 
are interesting, the way it 

2806
02:48:20,900 --> 02:48:26,800
plays off, real life, political 
Theory, the way that it like The

2807
02:48:26,800 --> 02:48:29,700
way that it's able to be smart 
without feeling like it's 

2808
02:48:29,700 --> 02:48:32,100
rubbing your face. 
And you're not being smart is 

2809
02:48:32,200 --> 02:48:35,200
really amazing. 
I'm interested in the way that 

2810
02:48:35,200 --> 02:48:37,900
it uses race. 
We didn't really get a chance to

2811
02:48:37,900 --> 02:48:41,300
talk about this, but it 
compresses race. 

2812
02:48:41,300 --> 02:48:43,300
When it's convenient for the 
story and ways that are 

2813
02:48:43,300 --> 02:48:46,500
sometimes a little offensive, 
like it uses mask as a race for 

2814
02:48:46,500 --> 02:48:50,500
Hispanic and talks about the 
Spanish Civil War, but in the 

2815
02:48:50,500 --> 02:48:53,700
full cut, it'll sometimes 
include Chicano voices clearly 

2816
02:48:53,700 --> 02:48:58,500
from like kind of a south 
southern. via like place when 

2817
02:48:58,500 --> 02:49:01,900
it's convenient for it to talk 
about masks - and clearly 

2818
02:49:01,900 --> 02:49:06,600
Spanish, Revolution, Spain, and 
Southern California are like 

2819
02:49:06,600 --> 02:49:09,900
completely unrelated and to 
conflate those is almost 

2820
02:49:09,900 --> 02:49:15,900
defensive but the fact that like
Yeah, it's a game written by a 

2821
02:49:15,908 --> 02:49:21,600
team of Eastern European people.
And I'm I'm very fascinated by 

2822
02:49:21,600 --> 02:49:25,600
how it the races that are in the
developers backyard. 

2823
02:49:25,600 --> 02:49:27,400
It has quite a nuanced 
understanding of in the one's a 

2824
02:49:27,408 --> 02:49:29,300
little further away. 
It doesn't. 

2825
02:49:30,300 --> 02:49:32,300
And I think that's cool. 
I think it's kind of cool that 

2826
02:49:32,300 --> 02:49:34,700
it doesn't tackle raise 
perfectly, but it tries the fact

2827
02:49:34,700 --> 02:49:37,300
that it has a black character 
that completely inverts. 

2828
02:49:37,300 --> 02:49:41,200
Colonial stereotypes in measure 
head that was written by black. 

2829
02:49:41,200 --> 02:49:45,000
Authors is fucking wild. 
It's cool. 

2830
02:49:45,100 --> 02:49:48,800
It's like a I don't know, it's 
just neat. 

2831
02:49:49,200 --> 02:49:52,700
I the way the phasmid speaks to 
you at the end of the game about

2832
02:49:52,700 --> 02:49:55,100
seeing all of human history is 
just breathtaking. 

2833
02:49:55,500 --> 02:49:57,700
I can barely talk about it 
without tearing up. 

2834
02:49:58,000 --> 02:50:00,700
It was such a moving experience 
to me, it's something that I've 

2835
02:50:00,700 --> 02:50:04,400
like, craved finding and 
literature it. 

2836
02:50:04,400 --> 02:50:06,800
I read books about other 
countries and other cultures for

2837
02:50:06,800 --> 02:50:10,200
these kind of things. 
And this game did it, and the 

2838
02:50:10,200 --> 02:50:12,800
fact that it's not just about an
imaginary world, but has 

2839
02:50:12,800 --> 02:50:16,300
parallels to the world we live 
in, I think is just another A 

2840
02:50:16,308 --> 02:50:18,100
layer of what makes it 
fantastic. 

2841
02:50:18,500 --> 02:50:22,300
I think the systems that 
innovates as an RPG or not just 

2842
02:50:22,800 --> 02:50:27,700
ways to shoehorn text into a 
genre, kind of like I was saying

2843
02:50:27,700 --> 02:50:32,800
before, I think there is like 
genuine Innovation here that a 

2844
02:50:32,800 --> 02:50:35,900
very serious historical genre 
video games hasn't seen in a 

2845
02:50:35,908 --> 02:50:37,600
long time and I think that's 
cool. 

2846
02:50:41,500 --> 02:50:43,800
What can I say about it? 
That's - I think it could be 

2847
02:50:43,800 --> 02:50:46,300
better at replayability. 
It could make it systems more 

2848
02:50:46,300 --> 02:50:51,300
clear. 
But I don't really think those 

2849
02:50:51,300 --> 02:50:54,100
things matter when we talked 
about Kentucky Route, Zero on 

2850
02:50:54,100 --> 02:50:58,400
our podcast, that game kind of 
became more parsable. 

2851
02:50:58,400 --> 02:51:03,100
To me, it became more of a this 
is a toy box of some nerds is 

2852
02:51:03,100 --> 02:51:07,300
like art interests and that game
sort of fell off its pedestal to

2853
02:51:07,308 --> 02:51:11,000
me and also became more 
respectable as like, you know, 

2854
02:51:11,000 --> 02:51:13,100
art is really cool. 
It's cool that video games can 

2855
02:51:13,100 --> 02:51:16,000
be conversing with the serious 
art world, that's neat. 

2856
02:51:17,200 --> 02:51:20,200
But for everything that that 
game does in that regard, I 

2857
02:51:20,200 --> 02:51:23,400
think it sort of loses its 
luster as a game and becomes 

2858
02:51:23,400 --> 02:51:26,800
more of an intermodal art 
project disco Elysium. 

2859
02:51:26,800 --> 02:51:30,000
On the other hand, everything it
does that I think is amazing. 

2860
02:51:30,000 --> 02:51:33,200
Makes it stronger as a game. 
I think that's spectacular. 

2861
02:51:33,700 --> 02:51:36,900
So this is definitely my 
favorite game I've ever played 

2862
02:51:36,900 --> 02:51:39,300
and I think it's cool. 
And I'm glad you both are here 

2863
02:51:39,300 --> 02:51:42,300
to talk about it. 
What do you think? 

2864
02:51:43,700 --> 02:51:47,800
I'm interested that it's God. 
Well, before you go jump in, you

2865
02:51:47,800 --> 02:51:50,800
said yeah. 
This is not a completely 

2866
02:51:50,800 --> 02:51:56,500
divorced from our reality world.
What did you mean by that? 

2867
02:51:59,900 --> 02:52:03,200
yeah, I think it's tying until 
like, Eastern European politics 

2868
02:52:03,200 --> 02:52:07,500
and the way Yeah, the kind of 
stuff we talked about with the 

2869
02:52:07,500 --> 02:52:09,600
Imperial core. 
Yeah. 

2870
02:52:11,700 --> 02:52:14,800
It's not set up in some made of 
world with like some other 

2871
02:52:14,800 --> 02:52:18,500
problems that humanity is like 
not actually facing. 

2872
02:52:20,700 --> 02:52:23,300
In a way it is. 
But it also manages to comment 

2873
02:52:23,300 --> 02:52:26,300
on our world without being like 
a lazy way of avoiding 

2874
02:52:26,300 --> 02:52:27,900
commenting on our world, I 
think. 

2875
02:52:30,400 --> 02:52:33,200
Okay. 
I thought you were time to 

2876
02:52:33,200 --> 02:52:36,200
debate but we're late. 
Yeah, I thought you were saying.

2877
02:52:36,600 --> 02:52:41,600
Oh, this is Our world and the 
year 3000 or something. 

2878
02:52:42,100 --> 02:52:44,500
Oh no, sorry, I interrupted 
correct? 

2879
02:52:45,300 --> 02:52:48,600
No, no, it's all good. 
I would say that when you 

2880
02:52:48,600 --> 02:52:50,900
mention the mechanics, really 
what's there to be negative 

2881
02:52:50,900 --> 02:52:54,300
about moving through this game 
World follow. 

2882
02:52:54,300 --> 02:52:56,700
Yeah socks. 
Yeah, moving sucks. 

2883
02:52:57,100 --> 02:53:00,500
Sadly miserable. 
Did they had quick travel in the

2884
02:53:00,600 --> 02:53:06,600
finally unlocked fast. 
Travel to the fish market 

2885
02:53:06,600 --> 02:53:08,400
specific place, but I didn't 
know. 

2886
02:53:08,600 --> 02:53:10,700
How to use it or what to do with
it? 

2887
02:53:11,000 --> 02:53:13,500
Yeah. 
It's it's not great. 

2888
02:53:13,600 --> 02:53:16,200
Yeah, and I think the console 
implementation of movement is 

2889
02:53:16,200 --> 02:53:18,600
bad. 
Yeah, just talking about council

2890
02:53:18,600 --> 02:53:22,800
did not at all nothing things. 
Felt really weird marking, 

2891
02:53:22,800 --> 02:53:24,700
things feels real bad, 
especially compared like 

2892
02:53:24,700 --> 02:53:27,500
immortality where you can freeze
the screen and just like know 

2893
02:53:27,500 --> 02:53:30,100
what selectable on the screen. 
Yum. 

2894
02:53:30,400 --> 02:53:34,200
Yeah, and then there was a 
button to show you everything 

2895
02:53:34,200 --> 02:53:36,500
that selectable on the screen 
and that doesn't show you 

2896
02:53:36,500 --> 02:53:38,500
everything that selectable of 
Screech. 

2897
02:53:38,900 --> 02:53:41,200
And it doesn't make it easier to
select their living either. 

2898
02:53:41,400 --> 02:53:45,300
Yeah, it's like all the bottles 
that you pick up are not 

2899
02:53:45,300 --> 02:53:48,400
selected, are not highlighted. 
Oh, that's from the terrible. 

2900
02:53:48,500 --> 02:53:52,100
Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is a 
PC, a sport if the car was one. 

2901
02:53:52,600 --> 02:53:56,900
Yeah, it absolutely is. 
I won't go too deep into that 

2902
02:53:56,900 --> 02:53:58,900
space because I think we've 
covered it. 

2903
02:53:59,200 --> 02:54:02,100
But yeah. 
Yes, my rap of thoughts. 

2904
02:54:02,300 --> 02:54:05,200
I don't think they're going to 
be as exhaustive as either of 

2905
02:54:05,200 --> 02:54:08,700
your guys is with regards to the
Grand scale of what Was 

2906
02:54:08,700 --> 02:54:11,100
accomplished here or what was 
sought after. 

2907
02:54:11,600 --> 02:54:15,100
But for me I looked at it as an 
opportunity as an introduction 

2908
02:54:15,100 --> 02:54:17,600
to a different type of 
literature than I'm normally 

2909
02:54:17,900 --> 02:54:22,500
seeking or exposed to and having
the opportunity to exist in 

2910
02:54:22,500 --> 02:54:25,700
something that is actually 
immersive. 

2911
02:54:26,200 --> 02:54:30,200
We talked about games being an 
immersive experience and that's 

2912
02:54:30,200 --> 02:54:33,400
usually like hey I want to exist
within this thing that's 

2913
02:54:33,400 --> 02:54:37,800
separate from the world outside 
of me but this was like, I need 

2914
02:54:37,800 --> 02:54:42,600
to exist. 
This thing because without 

2915
02:54:42,600 --> 02:54:46,300
becoming fully immersed within 
that world, I don't have an 

2916
02:54:46,300 --> 02:54:49,700
understanding of the space and I
thought that was a really 

2917
02:54:49,700 --> 02:54:53,300
interesting, you know, thing to 
try and occupy an especially 

2918
02:54:53,500 --> 02:54:57,400
unique opportunity with in 
gaming and Bridging, the world 

2919
02:54:57,400 --> 02:55:01,000
between literature. 
Two games is something that I 

2920
02:55:01,000 --> 02:55:05,300
think is wholly unique to disco 
Lee's iums experience here at 

2921
02:55:05,300 --> 02:55:08,000
least at the proficiency at 
which it accomplished it, right?

2922
02:55:08,000 --> 02:55:11,900
It's not too. that there's not a
ton of other games that have a 

2923
02:55:11,900 --> 02:55:15,800
shit ton of text or are written 
well or have other places there 

2924
02:55:15,800 --> 02:55:22,700
but it's that combination of 
taking high-concept ideology and

2925
02:55:23,100 --> 02:55:26,800
you know different perspectives 
on the world and then bring able

2926
02:55:26,800 --> 02:55:32,200
to make that accessible playable
and understandable to some 

2927
02:55:32,200 --> 02:55:36,500
extent right mileage may vary as
we discussed through last three 

2928
02:55:36,500 --> 02:55:41,800
hours, but That's a really 
unique kind of combination, and 

2929
02:55:41,800 --> 02:55:46,100
it was also something where I 
probably would have bounced off 

2930
02:55:46,100 --> 02:55:48,500
early on, right? 
I'm like, happy that I stuck 

2931
02:55:48,500 --> 02:55:51,000
with it. 
And didn't leave it after two 

2932
02:55:51,000 --> 02:55:53,100
hours of being like, what the 
fuck is happening here? 

2933
02:55:53,100 --> 02:55:56,600
Like, I've spent as much time as
I would spend, on a movie, 

2934
02:55:56,800 --> 02:56:00,100
trying to understand and parse 
what's occurring here. 

2935
02:56:00,100 --> 02:56:03,800
And I still didn't feel 
comfortable in that space, and I

2936
02:56:03,808 --> 02:56:06,600
think there's something about 
being pushed to that limit of 

2937
02:56:07,000 --> 02:56:10,800
uncomfortability to be Able to 
understand what something is 

2938
02:56:10,800 --> 02:56:16,800
trying to achieve or accomplish 
and even leaving the game when 

2939
02:56:16,800 --> 02:56:19,500
it was finished, right? 
I didn't feel like I had a 

2940
02:56:19,500 --> 02:56:22,800
complete understanding or a 
comprehensive view of the 

2941
02:56:22,800 --> 02:56:26,400
philosophy of the theories of 
the different. 

2942
02:56:26,400 --> 02:56:30,400
Like machinations of like how 
things were being presented in a

2943
02:56:30,400 --> 02:56:32,500
way that I would be able to go 
out in articulate to someone of 

2944
02:56:32,500 --> 02:56:36,800
like what was disco Elysium. 
I don't know, it's a thought 

2945
02:56:36,800 --> 02:56:38,400
bucket of a bunch of different 
things. 

2946
02:56:38,500 --> 02:56:41,200
Things that are happening of 
within yourself and within the 

2947
02:56:41,200 --> 02:56:44,300
world. 
But there's something beautiful 

2948
02:56:44,300 --> 02:56:47,600
within that and I'm grateful 
that it exists and that there 

2949
02:56:47,600 --> 02:56:50,800
was an opportunity that a 
collective could put this 

2950
02:56:51,000 --> 02:56:54,200
together and put it into a place
of they can present it to the 

2951
02:56:54,200 --> 02:56:57,000
public and Nate to one thing you
mentioned, right? 

2952
02:56:57,000 --> 02:57:02,900
Like while I would say I would 
like to Explore this and give it

2953
02:57:02,900 --> 02:57:06,800
as an option for someone that's 
deep into literary or 

2954
02:57:06,800 --> 02:57:12,500
literature, and reading, like, 
it's kind of can be miserable to

2955
02:57:12,500 --> 02:57:15,800
play at times as well. 
So it's like we have a guided 

2956
02:57:15,800 --> 02:57:19,700
experience here, which bums me 
out in some ways because it 

2957
02:57:19,700 --> 02:57:23,800
keeps it from being that True 
full recommendation of hey you 

2958
02:57:23,800 --> 02:57:26,100
don't even need to know the 
medium like you get to 

2959
02:57:26,100 --> 02:57:29,900
experience like what the medium 
is capable of when it starts to 

2960
02:57:29,900 --> 02:57:32,700
bridge between. 
Between something that has 

2961
02:57:32,700 --> 02:57:36,900
existed for hundreds and 
thousands of years versus 

2962
02:57:36,900 --> 02:57:39,700
something that's existed in a 
recent time, right? 

2963
02:57:39,700 --> 02:57:42,500
And there's something maybe that
bridges into the themes of the 

2964
02:57:42,500 --> 02:57:45,600
game of the history and the how 
things repeat itself. 

2965
02:57:45,600 --> 02:57:50,200
But separating out that theme 
it's just like I can't hand it 

2966
02:57:50,200 --> 02:57:53,200
over to someone and be like, 
hey, you can you've never 

2967
02:57:53,200 --> 02:57:57,000
touched a controller before. 
You would be able to see kind of

2968
02:57:57,000 --> 02:58:00,300
the best of the combination of 
the, the mediums. 

2969
02:58:00,700 --> 02:58:04,500
And that's like unfortunate and 
that's a bit of a failing of the

2970
02:58:04,500 --> 02:58:08,300
game, but it's also not what it 
was trying to accomplish, and 

2971
02:58:08,300 --> 02:58:10,900
I'm glad it wasn't trying to 
seek out to be that. 

2972
02:58:11,300 --> 02:58:15,300
So, I'll wrap up there but I'm 
grateful this exists, I'm 

2973
02:58:15,300 --> 02:58:19,500
grateful to a plated and The 
opportunity for it and glad that

2974
02:58:19,500 --> 02:58:22,400
it's paved, you know, an 
opportunity for something to 

2975
02:58:22,400 --> 02:58:24,100
exist in this space. 
And I think we're going to see a

2976
02:58:24,100 --> 02:58:28,700
lot of different riffs on 
variations of this over the next

2977
02:58:28,800 --> 02:58:31,600
few years. 
But I think there's something 

2978
02:58:32,100 --> 02:58:36,500
truly, and wholly, unique for 
creating this sort of work of 

2979
02:58:36,500 --> 02:58:40,100
Peace. 
Especially when you look at, you

2980
02:58:40,100 --> 02:58:43,800
know, Classics of literature. 
It's not like every year, 

2981
02:58:43,800 --> 02:58:45,900
there's a thousand-page book 
that people look at. 

2982
02:58:45,900 --> 02:58:49,300
And I do this. 
Thing will be referenced in 10 

2983
02:58:49,300 --> 02:58:52,000
or 20 years, right? 
It doesn't come along that 

2984
02:58:52,000 --> 02:58:53,700
often. 
I think there is something to be

2985
02:58:53,700 --> 02:58:57,500
said here, that even if you 
don't enjoy it, there's 

2986
02:58:57,500 --> 02:58:59,400
something that you can 
appreciate about it. 

2987
02:59:03,100 --> 02:59:07,200
Wonderful conclusion. 
I think my one quibble would be 

2988
02:59:07,200 --> 02:59:09,400
it's not like you can hand 
someone the best works of 

2989
02:59:09,400 --> 02:59:14,100
literature and say read this 
true you can but part of what 

2990
02:59:14,100 --> 02:59:18,900
makes the grade is its 
Impenetrability and also in some

2991
02:59:18,900 --> 02:59:21,200
ways disco Elysium plays. 
So poorly that it would be a 

2992
02:59:21,208 --> 02:59:23,100
great first game because you 
wouldn't know better. 

2993
02:59:23,700 --> 02:59:26,200
Be like, oh yeah, the bottom 
it's a little chunky, but what 

2994
02:59:26,200 --> 02:59:27,800
do I know? 
Yeah. 

2995
02:59:30,900 --> 02:59:32,600
I think this has been a great 
podcast. 

2996
02:59:32,700 --> 02:59:35,200
Thank you all for joining. 
Thanks for sharing with us. 

2997
02:59:36,800 --> 02:59:39,800
Hello, it's Nate after 
completing the edit. 

2998
02:59:39,800 --> 02:59:42,800
I've been thinking about pieces 
of media that are related and 

2999
02:59:42,800 --> 02:59:46,100
might be enjoyable to someone 
who like this conversation or 

3000
02:59:46,100 --> 02:59:49,700
like this game. 
I'll start out with two books 

3001
02:59:49,700 --> 02:59:52,700
that I think are related. 
If you're curious where I got 

3002
02:59:52,800 --> 02:59:55,300
the sort of Eastern European 
perspective, there's obviously a

3003
02:59:55,308 --> 02:59:59,500
lot more to be said there than 
I, Got to in the episode. 

3004
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:03,200
But Owen Heatherly is a really 
good author, he's a good person 

3005
03:00:03,200 --> 03:00:06,700
to follow on Goodreads to. 
He has a book that I've read 

3006
03:00:06,700 --> 03:00:09,300
called, The Adventures of Owen 
had early in the post-soviet 

3007
03:00:09,300 --> 03:00:12,400
space where he does kind of a 
well-informed travel Journal of 

3008
03:00:12,400 --> 03:00:13,800
each of the post-soviet 
countries. 

3009
03:00:14,300 --> 03:00:17,200
That's a great book. 
He has other books that are 

3010
03:00:17,200 --> 03:00:19,500
similar kind of 
ethnographically, exploring the 

3011
03:00:19,500 --> 03:00:26,200
rise of fascism across Europe. 
There's also a book called 

3012
03:00:26,200 --> 03:00:35,700
solenoid by Romanian author, 
murchie got the rescue, that's 

3013
03:00:35,700 --> 03:00:37,800
what I would. 
Cite if you are looking for a 

3014
03:00:37,900 --> 03:00:41,400
sort of high-minded Pros, heavy 
work of literature. 

3015
03:00:41,400 --> 03:00:43,600
That's kind of the most 
beautiful thing I think I've 

3016
03:00:43,600 --> 03:00:45,100
ever read. 
I'm only a third of the way 

3017
03:00:45,100 --> 03:00:47,600
through it. 
It's kind of like a big 

3018
03:00:47,600 --> 03:00:52,600
maximalist novel that was sort 
of like, what if Kafka met Boris

3019
03:00:53,900 --> 03:00:57,100
Yeah it's pretty crazy 
recommended reading if you're 

3020
03:00:57,100 --> 03:01:02,200
just in for some good Pros as 
far as video games go, I think 

3021
03:01:02,200 --> 03:01:06,600
Road Warden is a really good, 
Indie text based RPG with 

3022
03:01:06,600 --> 03:01:09,900
Graphics that will kind of make 
sense when you see it. 

3023
03:01:10,100 --> 03:01:13,800
Is it really good like 
meaningful, Choice, driven, text

3024
03:01:13,800 --> 03:01:16,100
game that really has a rich 
sense of place. 

3025
03:01:17,700 --> 03:01:21,700
There is clam man to open mic, 
which is a demo for the 

3026
03:01:21,700 --> 03:01:24,100
forthcoming clam, Man, 2, I 
don't even know if there was a 

3027
03:01:24,100 --> 03:01:26,700
clam man. 
One clam man to is very kind of 

3028
03:01:26,700 --> 03:01:30,200
like a sweet game about being a 
clam that's very clearly 

3029
03:01:30,200 --> 03:01:33,900
inspired by disco Elysium and 
it's some beautiful writing and 

3030
03:01:33,900 --> 03:01:36,900
is just kind of like a 
scaled-down lovely version of 

3031
03:01:36,908 --> 03:01:40,200
this game. 
There is, of course, Penta mint,

3032
03:01:40,200 --> 03:01:43,800
which is Josh, Sawyer of 
obsidians early Renaissance, 

3033
03:01:43,800 --> 03:01:46,900
Bavarian game. 
Wherein you're playing a 

3034
03:01:47,600 --> 03:01:50,200
Traveling Artisan. 
I think that's also very rich in

3035
03:01:50,200 --> 03:01:54,600
place, and is also like a game 
about a culture that's far 

3036
03:01:54,600 --> 03:01:59,800
removed from us, and I think the
only other thing I would say is 

3037
03:02:00,000 --> 03:02:04,000
it might be fun to plug cause 
modi's new game betrayal at Club

3038
03:02:04,000 --> 03:02:08,600
low, which kind of sort of 
unabashedly borrows the dice 

3039
03:02:08,600 --> 03:02:13,400
mechanics of disco Elysium into 
kind of a choice based RPG with 

3040
03:02:13,400 --> 03:02:15,400
a note. 
Incredible Jazz electronic 

3041
03:02:15,400 --> 03:02:18,500
soundtrack. 
I'm a beta tester for his games,

3042
03:02:18,500 --> 03:02:22,400
they're all pretty great. 
I think that's all the 

3043
03:02:22,400 --> 03:02:23,900
recommendations. 
I can think of. 

3044
03:02:25,000 --> 03:02:26,700
I hope that you all enjoyed this
one. 

3045
03:02:26,700 --> 03:02:28,900
It was a big one. 
Talk to you soon.