Welcome to Be on Sunday, a podcast as that is an extension
of the preaching ministry at L AM CI am Pastor Jonah Chitty,
joined as usual by Pastor Joe Pinner.
Pastor Joe, how are you doing? I am doing well, thank you.
How are you doing down there in sunny Florida?
I'm down here in sunny Florida. It is hot.
I don't know where the temp is where you are, but it's about
75°F here and not so sunny. It's about to rain.
They're complaining about cold weather coming in and it dipping
into the, I don't know, 40s. So they're going to be freezing
cold. The scarves will come out in
Florida. Everybody will be bundled up for
40° weather. But yeah, overall, just it's a
really good time of visiting with family for Thanksgiving.
And yeah, kids are not here now. They went somewhere else to hang
out with other grandparents. So I'm here home alone, and
that's good because I get to talk to you so.
I don't know about that. So go on vacation.
Go on vacation and still talk to Joe.
That's really good. Tell us how much we like each
other. Yeah, Well, I, I was looking at
your weather because I was curious the other day and I saw
what you're saying. It's like there's like a 20°F
dip that you guys are expecting like next week.
It's crazy, Yeah. Yeah, that's just a, it's just a
cold front. They say it's a cold front and
air quotes because it's not really cold, it's just
different. And so yeah, they'll be, it'll
be it's a wet cold though. It is.
It is chilly. But yeah, it's good to see my
family and good to hang out with the extended family, not just my
parents. Get to see my brother and my
sisters and all their youngins and all that stuff.
So. So yeah.
So we'll, we'll jump right in. You preached a sermon on Sunday,
didn't you? I did.
Yeah, I think it was called the importance of the Resurrection.
That seems like seems like a on the nose title like it.
It is pretty important. And you preach that from First
Corinthians 15 versus 12 to 19. So why don't you give us a
little recap and then and then we'll go from there.
Yeah, well, people who've been tuning in are probably going to
really start to see us like, I guess we talked about our titles
a lot and how they're changing and adapting and modifying.
And I guess I'm starting to feel like maybe maybe my title should
be more that way. So that I guess my biggest
conviction of titles is that if anybody's ever running through
our sermons on our website as like, let's say, a catalogue of
sermons, that the title just basically gives you a really
good idea what the sermons about rather than like we've said
before about captivating or. Right.
I don't know, man. We do talk about titles a lot.
I think I'm, I go back and forth.
I think what what I dislike most about them is that I'm not good
at riding them. And so it's like, it's like,
wait, it feels like I'm burning extra calories on something that
no one is going to pay attention to.
Or in the very least, like somebody might chuckle if I make
it provocative or they might say, and then that had nothing
to do with the title. So I don't know.
I go back and forth though. I think I think clearer is
better. But yeah, I like provocative
too. Yeah.
So the importance of the resurrection and just based on
that text, as you already mentioned in First Corinthians
chapter 15, verses 12 through 19, where where Paul is really
speaking from a negative vantage point.
And he's talking about like, you know, if if we're proclaiming
that Christ has risen from the dead, then how can you, some of
you say there's no resurrection? And because if there's no
resurrection, that means Christ hasn't, Christ hasn't risen from
the dead. And then he goes through a whole
bunch of implications of what that would then mean.
But they're all from a negative vantage point.
And so I even sort of wrestled with, well, even in my sermon
outline, should I, should I state all my sermon points in
the negative or should I already already work ahead to make them
positive? And I kind of wanted to stay.
I know you had sort of encouraged me.
It's like I always want, I always want my sermon to sort of
match the tone of the text. And so that's what I ended up
doing. And so all of my points were
were going on to that negative aspect.
The first point being that without the resurrection, our
message is meaningless. And Paul goes on to say that,
you know, we preach in vain and we believe in vain.
If if the resurrection isn't true and Christ didn't rise from
the dead, then we then our message is just completely
meaningless. Then he goes on to say, without
the resurrection, our witness is worthless because he's talking
about, you know, his witness for God, the fact that he's speaking
things that are from God and he's testifying about God.
And if we're saying that he rose Christ from the dead and he
didn't raise Christ from the dead, then our witness is
worthless. And that witness that he's
giving is completely meaningless, completely
worthless. And then the Third Point is that
without the resurrection, our faith is fruitless.
And so again, if Christ really didn't rise from the dead, then
that means that what we're putting our faith in
accomplishes nothing. Our sin remains unforgiven, the
grave remains unopened, and life remains unfulfilled.
And so there's really no point in US doing anything that we're
doing essentially. I feel like that's essentially
what he's saying. He's like everything that we're
doing, everything that you're believing, and this is all just
a waste of time. Which is interesting because
what I sort of mentioned in the sermon too, that a lot of times
people will sort of praise Christianity for its good
morals. But Paul doesn't see
Christianity as something that's like just good for society or
like, well, it's really good morally speaking, which a lot of
people say that about religion and not just Christianity, but
like other religions too, right? Like, oh, they, they just have
good morals or, you know, they all sort of have the same idea
of morality. It's like, no, it's much more
than morals. Paul actually says, I, I feel
like what he's saying is like, if, if Christianity is based on
morals alone, it's still worthless.
It's still meaningless. The only reason our religion has
any value or any meaning is because Christ really did come
to the world. God in the flesh really did come
to the world, die, was buried and then rose from the dead.
Like that's why, like that's the issue and that's why it's so
important. And so because of all that, we
can't have faith, we can't have confidence, and we can give all
of our lives to God and living for his glory in with the hope
of the future resurrection because Christ did rise from the
dead as a first fruits, which is Jake's text this coming week.
Yeah, and like, not like, not just like we should or we can,
we can like live in hope. We should live in hope, right?
That that's like the ground of it all is like, Yeah, It it
proves that Jesus is who he says he was.
So that's really good. Yeah.
I thought that. I thought your, I thought your
points were really, really meaningful.
They're, they're memorable for sure.
They, they weren't meaningless. They were meaningful.
They weren't worthless. They were, they were worthwhile.
They weren't fruitless. They did bear fruit.
So this is really good. I was struck by, I think you
said something like, well, you, you sort of used Paul's words,
but like I just one of my notes was like, we commit our lives or
we who commit our lives, like people who commit their lives as
far as pastors and people who are in the ministry, as we, as
people who commit our lives to the message of the gospel.
We would be most pitied if Christ has not been raised from
the dead because we've just, we've not only like, and not to
toot your horn or anything like that, but we've not only like
said, yeah, we believe this is true.
And we're going to like raise our family up in this.
We believe this is true. And we're going to like stake
our entire like livelihood, reputation, all of these things
on this one event. And a lot of times I don't, I
don't know why. I don't know if you get this
feeling or not, but like seems like a lot of times, like it,
the resurrection is like almost an afterthought.
It's like not something that even in during Easter, it's
like, yeah, we get it, we talk about it.
But like, I don't know if that's the way you, that's the way you
felt about it in the past, but seems like it's just kind of
like an add on. Yeah.
He was raised and he was raised from the dead.
And I don't think Paul's saying that.
I think Paul's making it more than that.
I dude, I absolutely agree. I, I, I was sort of thinking
about that. I was wrestling through that
this last week. I mean, we've in your sermon,
you sort of touched on through theological triage and you know,
there are issues of first importance and then there are
issues that are maybe not as important that like we, we can't
disagree on it. So I was like, OK, like this is
going to sound dumb, but I like, I asked myself the question.
It's like, OK, well, is the resurrection, like is it a, is
that a first tier issue? Is that an issue of like first
importance? And then like as I started
thinking about it, I'm like, duh, I'm like, of course it is.
I mean, that's Paul's whole point.
Like that kind of felt like an idiot that I even thought about
it, but. You're absolutely right.
That's good though, but that's good.
That's what you're supposed to do.
And I think that's like like it's good.
Like we're supposed to ask questions every single time we
read something we say, OK, what is this?
Is this something that I have that I have to believe in order
to be a Christian? Or is this something that has
like room for me to and I think it's, it's fine to ask, but you
may, you may think, Oh, I'm dumb for like thinking this.
But no, I think, I think it's important for us to like to
always ask every doctrine we need to run through that,
through that filter, even if like, I mean, let's just be
honest, you didn't think about it long, right?
Right. You thought you thought about it
for like 02 seconds. You're like, oh, of course it
is. But like, like if you thought
about it for like 2 weeks, who might have had us more issues,
but like, it was like a, a fleeting thought like they say.
I mean, I think, yeah, it just seems like like we will talk so
much about like Jesus living and a perfect life and then and then
how he taught, like we'll talk more about the Sermon on the
Mount, which is good, good teaching.
We should we should talk about that stuff.
But we, we focus on his life rather than focusing on like the
power of the resurrection, because like through his defeat
over death, then we're given what after that, we're given the
gift of the Spirit. Like this is how we can like do
the whole Christian wall. Like the cause of Jesus raised.
And like, I think you started to talk about it some like, and
we're going to talk more about it over the like the next few
verses in this chapter. Is, is like, not only is was
Christ raised, we will be raised.
And in order to, in order to, to be a Christian, you have to
believe in the resurrection. That's just, that's just it.
I think it's like it is one of the most important tenets of the
of Christianity. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And.
If not the most so. Well, and you're absolutely
right. And I would say like, I guess
I'm guilty of this too, right? Like exactly what you're saying
that that there is a resurrection sort of becomes an
afterthought. And I think of even for myself,
it's like, you know, how many times do we say Christ died for
your sin, right? And so the emphasis is on like
the cross and the emphasis is on his death and his payment for
sin. But it's like, it's a, it's a
full package deal, you know, like, right, like the
resurrection is a part of him accomplishing our salvation.
Like, like you said, it's not just an add on or an
afterthought. Like it is central to the
gospel. Like it has to be, it has to be
there because it it, it accomplishes what he set out to
do. I think too, like maybe it's
like maybe it's a lack of faith or maybe it's just like this
idea that we're going to like, we have to be, we have to be
apologetic for it, like. Oh, yeah.
And part of the story is that he was raised from the dead too.
And that's what we believe. And so if you want to be a
Christian, you have to believe that too.
It's sort of like like just, yeah, sheepish.
You know, we get sort of like, oh, but you know, we sort of
believe this weird thing that this guy actually came back to
life. You know, we need to be like, we
need to be like pronouncing that with like, with gusto and hope.
And like, this is the reason we have hope that that there is
something beyond the grave, you know, there is something beyond
this life. And so, and the and the
resurrection of Jesus is proof of it.
So, yeah, I liked your, your your line too.
A dead a dead Jesus equals dead preaching and a dead faith.
And I thought that was just really that really like punched
me a little bit as well. You want, you want dead
preaching, just preach a dead Jesus.
No, not a living 1. And so thought that was really
good. ILOLI wrote in my notes.
LOL when you mentioned Bernie Madoff.
Oh man, I feel like, I feel like people, people probably know so
much more than me. I, if anybody really knows me,
it's like, you realize how detached I am from like anything
news related or society or culture related.
Like I, I don't watch the news. I, I don't have social media.
Like I just, I don't know anything, right?
So I'm like, like, this is the name I've obviously heard of
over the years, but like, this was like total shock to me.
Like I I didn't really know the ends of the story.
It's a crazy story. It is wild.
But yeah, just thinking that like all these people that that
had put their faith in him and trusted him and I'll come to
find out it's just a big scam. It's just, you know, a guy
moving around money to different people and taking, you know, one
guy's money and giving it to another guy to make it look
like, you know, and to think that like the work that it would
have taken to organize all of that, you know, a lie.
And you could have just done it honestly, and it probably
wouldn't have. Been nearly as much work.
That's true. And then the the amount of
people he had to involve too, which was crazy.
And then because it wasn't just one, like it just wasn't just
him, like he had to involve other people in that.
And then, yeah. And then like most of that money
was going to him, you know, So but anyway, I just thought it
was good. It was a good like illustration,
though, of like something that seemed legitimate that turned
out to be fake. And that if, if, if the
Christianity is like the a Ponzi scheme where that seems
legitimate on the surface and then it turns out to be fake.
And and what we're doing is is worthless.
But that's where there might be. Yeah, exactly.
And that sort of reminds me, I guess now that you say that like
like I, I sort of thought about during the week when we come to
these sorts of texts, sort of like you're saying about the
resurrection, that like we're sort of embarrassed to talk
about certain parts of our faith because they take an incredible,
they take faith to believe, right.
And so we don't, we don't shy away from that, but maybe
sometimes we do, right. And we're like, I don't want to
sound like an idiot, right? I believe some guy rose from the
dead and he was God, you know, and so, but so I didn't want to
make my sermon apologetics. I didn't want to make it about,
OK, well, I have to, I have to somehow prove the resurrection.
I'm like, you know what? No, I'm, I'm preaching to mostly
people who believe in it. You know, we, we always sort of
assume that there are some non believers that come to church
and are sitting there, but most of the people there believe in
the resurrection. And so I don't have to prove to
you the resurrection is true and I can't prove it anyway.
I, there's nothing I can do to prove the resurrection, but it
sort of did make me think of, if anybody knows the Babylon Bee,
they're sort of like that. They make, they make satire and
so they make fake stories just for effect, just to be funny.
And it reminds me of a video that they had made about the
resurrection. Had you seen that one with the
disciples? I mean, I may have seen it, but
no, I don't think, I don't remember.
So is this pretend story of the disciples sitting around like,
you know, lamenting the fact that, well, now, now our
leader's dead, right? Jesus is dead, what are we going
to do? And one of the disciples is
like, you know what, let's dig up his body and we'll just say
he rose from the dead. And then everybody's like, yeah,
what a great idea. And then it'll like, and then
we're all gonna die for our faith and die for the story to
prove that it's real. And then everybody's like, yeah.
And then one guy's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, that last part
you just said. And so anyway, it's just like
sort of this funny story that like to think that these guys
would make something out this fake story, dig up Jesus from
the grave and make it look like he rose from the dead and then
be willing to suffer and die for that.
And like all the while going to spread their message everywhere
they went. Like it's it really is just the
most ridiculous thing ever. It is, it is it's, it has to be
true. It's so ridiculous that the
story has to be true. Like any any plausible like
reason why they would make it up.
And then all like the the other one that Paul like brings out in
the text that I preached last week, that the one that so many
eyewitnesses, over 500 people saw him at the same time.
I mean, that's enough. That's enough witness for me
that there's no way that all those people hallucinated that
same event at exactly the same time.
So. Well, and I actually, I didn't
say this. I didn't say this in the first
service. It, it came to my mind in the
second service when I brought up that point of all the people
that saw Jesus, it was 500 people.
And I, I sort of was looking around the room.
I'm like, you know, there's 300 people in this room right now.
And it's like we add 200 more people to that.
And to think that like he appeared to 500 people at the
same time. Like it sort of just dawned on
me in that moment that it's like, wow, that's a huge crowd
of people that all saw him at the same time.
Like would they all have been same time, same time?
No, that's must. Have been something in the gravy
that day. I don't know.
Yeah, No, you're exactly right. It's like Paul and Paul's making
that that very same point and he's saying, hey, if you don't
believe me, go talk. Some of them are still alive,
right? Go talk to him.
Unfortunately, we can't. So yeah, I think it's really,
really good. And then I liked you brought in
the that Paul wanted to be seen as a man of integrity.
I thought that was really good. And and how he used that in
other letters, that was very I don't know.
I don't know why it struck me that you that you brought that
out so much, but it did. It made me think, yeah, Paul is
like basically like appealing to them based saying, hey, I'm
trustworthy, you can trust me. This is the truth.
And I don't know why he felt like he needed to do that over
and over again, but sometimes he did.
Yeah, and I, I guess it sort of dawned on me too, because,
because again, I, I didn't want to get into the whole
apologetics thing, but this, this is sort of an apologetic
that that is to, to assume that the disciples wanted to be
dishonest or were willing to be dishonest goes against it sort
of goes against what they had been taught by their master of
their whole this their whole, his whole ministry anyway,
right. That they were, they were
brought up on the principles of being trustworthy and telling
the truth and they believed in the 10 commandments.
One of the things which is don't lie, right.
And so to think that these guys would just be so willing to
distort the truth. I, I felt like it was important
for him for, for Paul to say we would be misrepresenting God if
we were saying that he raised Christ from the dead and he
didn't like and sort of that's important to him to go.
It's like we would be lying and why would we, why would we do
that? Why would we want to lie?
And so and then like, I just sort of, sort of made me think
like I know he says that in other letters.
And so I was sort of did some research and, and found all the
different areas where it's like, you know, he's very committed to
telling the truth. And, and it shows you like he
didn't just sit down and write, hey, OK, just write down a
letter. I think he was more careful than
that when he wrote his letters, to be careful and to do his
research and made sure he had the right facts and to make sure
that he was being a man of integrity and speaking the
truth. Yeah.
And even like, I'm just thinking about his life.
Like for him it may have been even more important for him to
say, you know, because he came from the persecuted, the
persecution side. Like he came from it being a
persecutor and now he's being persecuted and he's like, why?
Why would I not tell the truth? Like if this, if I didn't
believe this, my whole heart, there's no way I would be doing
this. Yeah, because he would have been
killing people. He was still would have been
going at going at it or he would have just died blind.
Right. That I think that's that's the
other alternative. Christ was going to stop Paul
from doing what he was doing, persecution of the church.
He's either going to use him or he was just going to finish him.
And so thank, thank him. You know, thankfully he did just
use him. So, yeah, absolutely, we can
have confidence in the resurrection because there's so
many eyewitnesses. I love that.
I don't know if you saw this link or this quote from Shriner
or not, but like, I was thinking about this text and I was
looking back through his commentary and he says, like, if
the resurrection isn't true, then we're misrepresenting God.
Like you, you brought that point out in your text, in your
sermon. And then he says we again see
the inextricable link between the destiny of believers and the
resurrection of Christ. If believers will not be raised
in the future, Paul asserts most emphatically, Christ is not
raised. The two are bound together.
And I think that's just like where the hope comes in for me,
like all of this, like, because let's be honest, like living a
Christian life is hard. It's really, really hard at
times. And there's just having hope for
the future that there's that there's something that we're
living for. It just means so much to me.
Like then knowing that that we are this, this union with Christ
is more than just union. And like the spirits in me so I
can live a life here. Union and Christ means raised as
well, and resurrection. And that's just so cool to think
about. Yeah, and I, it is it is
absolutely vital to our understanding.
You know, when writer of Hebrews talks about all the heroes of
faith, it's Moses in particular that he that he mentions like
was willing to, was willing to, you know, forsake earthly
pleasure and earthly treasures for heavenly ones, right.
And I think that that's sort of the whole faith that we follow
is people who are willing to to look to a world not of this
world, right? That this is not this is not
home. This is not where we're going to
land. And I think that's Paul's whole
point at the end of my text, verse 19.
If in Christ we have hope in this life only we're of almost
all people, most to be pitied like we do have hope in the next
life, which gives us, like you said, an incredible comfort,
incredible hope. You know what joy to know that
there's going to be suffering and there's going to be hard
things in this life. But it's not just this life.
You know, you really do understand.
Honestly, I, I feel like, OK, the resurrection is not true.
I mean, you start to sympathize with the world and you start to
sympathize with them to go when an injustice happens to them,
like drunk driver kills someone in your family or something like
that, right? You get why some people make it
their life's mission to like, I am going to make that guy pay or
I'm going to make sure he gets in jail or I am going to
whatever. I'm going to start an
organization that's against that.
And those some of those things are good.
I'm not saying that they're fruitless or or vain or
whatever, but I'm just saying you get why people sort of like,
fueled by bitterness and resentment, will, will pursue
those things. But for us as believers, we
trust those things into the Lord's care.
And we trust that, you know, even though it's still wrong, We
trust that he knows and that he has it in his hand.
And we're looking to a hope that's beyond this life and a
hope. Yeah, exactly there.
There's something else to hope in, because this life isn't all
there is. Yeah, it makes me think of when
you're talking about talking through that, the hope.
And it made me think, and you may use that example of like
someone, your family member dying as a result of someone
else's sin, right. Like, and then I start thinking
about like, what are examples that come to mind that are
people who had the opportunity for vengeance or maybe like
could have gone and expressed that and didn't.
And I was just thinking about we've we've used them as an
example before. But Elizabeth Elliott had every
right to be angry and upset at the death of her husband at the
hands of these natives down in South America.
But what did she do? She didn't like form an
organization to go and wipe out tribes.
She, she, she figured out a way to take the gospel back to them.
And I think in some way it may be that, that, you know, this
hope in the resurrection, this idea that, that, that this life
isn't all that there is. It may have fueled her.
I don't know. I haven't read her story like
some people have. But I would I have to, I have to
believe that something like this is what's fueled her that there
is that, you know, Jim Elliott is not gone, he's gone from from
earth, but he's, he's, he's with the, you know, with Jesus and,
and he and she wanted the same things that he wanted.
He wanted this, this tribe to be saved, to have the gospel to
believe. And so it was more important for
her to do that than they didn't seek retribution.
So anyway, I just thought, I just thought about like there's
so many other stories about like people who have like have every
right to do that. But then instead they give him
the gospel. So I pray that I would be.
I would be that person. Right.
Not like the vengeful person. Yeah.
So we can't have confidence in this life and a life to come.
Yeah. It's good.
And then, you know, the Justin Martyr story was helpful at the
end of your sermon. I thought that was really good.
I don't. I can't remember exactly how it
was tied in. So you want to give me something
on that? Yeah.
So I, I was just sort of emphasizing at the end that we
should, we should put our faith because, because we can have
such confidence in, in the resurrection that, you know, our
sins are forgiven. Christ did rise from the dead
and we will too. That gives us hope and meaning
and purpose in this life. Since we can't have that
confidence, we should be able to endure any difficulty in this
life looking to the hope we have in Christ.
That's sort of what we've just been talking about.
And that's tie. That's where I tied it into this
Justin Martyr. That's exactly what he did.
And so I don't, I don't know much of this guy's story, but I,
I know I've read some of his stuff for some of our classes.
I know we had to read it. And he, he was sort of like an
early apologist, right? Like some of the, some of the
rumors that were going on and, and again, the, the Christians
were being persecuted and some of the things that they were
saying is like, oh, they eat each other's.
They, they, they're eating blood and, and eating, drinking blood
and eating flesh, right? Like what's going on there?
A misunderstanding of the Lord's Supper, right?
Right, exactly. So a misunderstanding of the
Lord's Supper and and things like the holy kiss and like
they're like incest and so different, all all sorts of
different things. It's like some sort of origin.
And so they thought that's what they thought of the early
churches. So all these different things
that people were accusing Christians of that weren't true.
And so he wrote letters to emperors and to different people
that he had formed a relationship with so he could
inform them and actually correct these misunderstandings.
But but he wasn't a Christian. Like he grew up in a Pagan
family and and was searching for the meaning of life and finally
found Christ when an old man shared Christ with him and he
gave his life to Christianity to anybody who would listen and
debated many skeptics. But he ended up being beheaded
for his faith and he was completely unwilling to to
surrender, to submit. He was not willing to turn, he
says to turn from the Christianity to to worship the
Romans gods. He said no one who is rightly
minded turns from true belief to false, which I feel like is such
a great, that's such a great statement.
It is. I know I've thought of, I love,
I think of like the disciples statements too.
When when people start, you know, there were so many people
following Jesus all the time and then at one point a bunch of
people leave. I think it was actually right
after the Lord's or the whoever eats.
Him, he says, talk of me. Exactly.
Yeah. He's like Jesus, said something
really weird. Unless you eat of my body and
drink of my blood like you have no part of me and everybody.
'S like like this guy's a vampire.
We got to get out of here. Everybody leaves and then he
turns to the disciples and he's like, are you guys going to
leave too? And I just love like their
statement. It's like, where else are we
going to go? And it's like you have the words
of. Life, I think, is what that is,
what they say, right? Something like that, yeah.
Like. We we have the truth.
I mean, where are we going to go?
If this is the truth? What else are we going to do?
And I just love that resolve to go like, if this is true, I we
just have to stay here and just figure out what this this body
is blood's all about, right? We don't really.
Understand what you're talking about.
But we, we, we're committed, right?
I think that's so good. And I think you said I don't.
Know if you said this or I thought about it like I know you
did say this, these things give feet to our faith, right?
Like this, like the, the like believing the resurrection and
and being committed to the truth of the resurrection is what is
what fuels our faith. It gives us like the ability to
take steps of faith and then a faith worth living for is 1
worth dying for. And I thought that was a really,
really good point. And it like ties into the to the
Justin Martyr conversation. But like and then asking myself
like just thinking application wise like.
Am I willing to die? For it.
Am I willing to to sacrifice my family for it?
And, you know, if we're willing to live for it, then we must be
willing to die for it. And I think that's something
that we should all like we need to reconcile and come to terms
with, Right? So yeah.
Yeah. It's really.
Really good. And there are a lot of stories
of early martyrs in the early Christian faith like that.
And they they, I mean, all the disciples, most of the disciples
died. I think all of them except John.
I think people think that John probably died of old age on the
island of Patmos, but. All the disciples died for
their. Faith, many early Christians
died for their faith and they're persecuted.
And and, you know, we had, we were praying for the persecuted
church back in November or earlier this month here at the
church on a Sunday night. And that's there's believers
around the world right now. We're we're very far removed
from that. But they're suffering and dying
for their faith right now. Yeah.
And it's something we have. To keep, we have to keep that in
mind, right? Yeah.
And, and we have to ask ourselves the question, would we
be that bold, right? Like when it came to shove and
Christianity was outlawed, would we stand up for our faith, you
know? Yeah, we have different.
Challenges that definitely we have different challenges, but
we don't have that challenge yet.
And I honestly, though, Joe, I don't know how how much longer
we'll be able to, like, be free to do things like what we're
doing now and like, having a chat across an international
border about the gospel, Like, who knows what could happen in
five or six years or even like, having the ability to just
freely upload whatever we want to the Internet and it'd be
gospel related. So yeah.
Yeah. So man, I thought it was a
really good sermon. I really appreciated it even
though I had to listen after it was preached.
That's always sad to me. There's something missed.
I don't know. I don't know if you feel this,
but there's something missed. It's so different listening to
something recorded like a sermon rather than being in the room
and, and just feeling, feeling it in the in the room.
I don't know if how you feel about that.
Is it different for you? No, I, I do.
Agree with you like there's times even where you know if you
heard something live and then you go back to like, oh, I got
that sermon was so good and you like try to go back to listen to
it over then you're like, Nah, it just wasn't the same sort of
because you heard it once maybe or.
Yeah, maybe just you just imagined in your maybe it hit
you harder the Holy Spirit working in that in that time and
space, right. And he convicted you in the
moment and then you go back and you're like, I don't know why
that convicted me so much. And it really had nothing to do
with what the guy said. It just had the time that the
Holy Spirit wanted to convict your heart for something.
So. But yeah, it is it is difficult
to listen to them. And then, well, mostly because I
was listening with my headphones and kids were talking and
running around and playing piano and all the things and I'm, I'm
a very easily distracted person. So.
But no, I thought it was a really good sermon.
Really, really helpful. What would be your, your biggest
application point if you had to like hammer it home one more
time for the for the sermon? Yeah, I guess just.
Just like, I guess I was trying to think, what does this, what
does this mean for us? Like how do I, how do I, you
know, as as pastors were trying to think of application in the
sermon and I was sort of struggling through like, what
application does this have to our life?
And I and I think it is just, well, if you really believe it,
then you're going to then you're going to live it out, right?
Like what does the resurrection mean?
Well, the resurrection means that Christ really was God and
he really did come and he really didn't die and he really was
raised, which means this really is true, which just basically
for me just emphasizes everything that everything that
we already talk about all the time, right?
Anyway, it's like, man, why am I not seeking communion with this
God who did, who was willing to go to that extent for me?
Why? Why would I not pursue him in
his word and obey him and pray and call out to him like he's a
living God And that should fuel my faith for me to pursue him
and I guess just to live for a world that's not here, right?
Like that's the, the most important thing that we can do
is not build a life in a Kingdom here, but to look forward to
that life in that Kingdom in the next World.
Yeah, we are. What is the book of?
Oh, it is a book we had to read for seminary, I think, in
systematic theology. Oh, we're sojourners and
strangers. Yeah, like we are.
We are just. Like foreigners passing through,
this is not, this is not our home.
So, yeah, I think I think too, like if you take your, if you
take your points to your to like as you were explaining it there,
I started thinking about your points.
They're they're phrased in the negative.
But if you like, say, if it's true, then our message is
meaningful, right? And then our witness is
something that's worthwhile. And so we have, we should spread
it and then our faith produces fruit.
I think just making those positive, which you did a great
job of in the sermon, like at the, you know, as you were
flushing out the point, you said, you know, if it's fake,
then it's meaningless, but it's not.
And you kept going back to it, coming back to it, hammering at
home. So yeah, I thought it was a it
was a really good sermon, really helpful.
And I know, I know it will be helpful for a long time because
now we have it recorded and then the Internet on the ether
forever. So yeah.
So let's get any other final words on the sermon.
No, that's it. I'm.
Excited for Jake Sturman this coming Sunday.
He's going to sort of talk about I didn't, I didn't want to like
dive too much into the next section because I was thinking
like he he really starts to like he starts to go into the
positive direction, but I wanted to learn and he starts to flush
out this. Union, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
And so. So yeah, I'm.
I'm really excited with with Jake Sturman this Sunday and,
and how he's going to sort of bring the positive side up and,
and there's a lot of really interesting stuff.
So for anybody who's coming to church this Sunday, I would read
ahead, read the First Corinthians 15 verses 20 through
34, and, yeah, come prepared to to hear what Jake's going to say
on Sunday. I think that's going to be
exciting. Yeah, it's.
Going to be good, looking forward to it, looking forward
to discussing it again next week.
Did you have anything we can, we cannot have anything if you
don't have anything. But do you have anything that
you like that you would like to share with the the 10s of people
who listen to our podcast? Yes, I do.
The 10s of people, they're out there, but we appreciate the
encouragement. I know there's people out there
who encourage us and and say that they really, really enjoy
the podcast. So we're grateful for that.
This, we're doing it for you. This is not, this is not for us.
This is not what I don't know. It could be a lot of things, but
it's none of those things. It's just simply for us to help
our church. Yeah, it is.
It's. Good.
It's it's a lot of fun too. That's that's one reason we do
it because it's fun. But another reason is because we
we have more we want to share, right.
But yeah, anyway, yeah, so things like.
The book I started re listening to, not reading, listening to is
called The Speed of Trust, The One Thing That Changes
everything by Stephen Covey. And so this is actually, I know
Stephen Covey's a guy that I should be reading more, but I
haven't really read much from him.
And this is the first book I've read.
I haven't even read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People yet.
Shame on you. That's.
That's on my. List but the speed of trust by
Stephen Covey and I just as a leader, I was interested in in
in listening to this book and learning about it because trust
is so important in leadership. And one of the things that
really struck me in the very beginning of the book is he
says. Trust.
Is confidence. When When people.
Have confidence in you as a leader, but on the negative
side, when you don't have trust, there's suspicion, and that
really struck me. And was a.
Sort of AI guess, a stark reminder for me as a leader and
I think anybody, right? Like in any one of our lives,
right? If you're a parent or if you are
at work, you know, are you a person that people have
confidence in or are you a person that people are
suspicious of? Right.
And we don't always get to decide what people think of us.
It depends on who they're talking to or what people are
saying. We so we don't always know that,
but you can do things that's at some point, right, With the way
you carry yourself and the way that you work and, and the way
that you live your life. Are, are you a person who, who
is trustworthy and, and who people can put their confidence
in? And if not, and if people are
suspicious of you working, working on ways to sort of bring
that back, how can you become a trustworthy person?
That's good. So, Stephen Covey, what was the
book title again? The speed of Trust.
The speed, yeah. The speed of trust, that's
really good, Really, really good.
So I was trying to think like I'm there's a couple things on
my mind right now. Christmas is coming around.
I'm not normally into Christmas until after American
Thanksgiving, but like living in Canada has made it seem like it
should come sooner. And so I've been thinking about
Christmas time a lot. I haven't mentioned this on the
podcast before, but it's the Savior is Born by Doctor Bill
Cook. It's I've been starting, I
started reading it and that book is just set up so well.
I think he has a way of, of teaching a topic that you're
familiar with and like a fresh way and helps you see it in a
really good way. Like the, the 1st chapter goes
to the genealogy of Matthew. And like if you read through the
genealogy in Matthew and the chapter one, you're like, why
are we getting all these names? And like he's got like 15 pages
on explaining like who these people are and why they matter.
And it's just, it's just super helpful like to get that like a,
a scholar's perspective with a pastor's voice.
I don't know if that's kind of like that.
I don't know if that makes sense, but like it's, it's very
intelligent. He knows what he's talking
about, but he's talking to me like I am a third grader and I
can, you know, I can read it and understand it.
And, and then there's a section in every chapter that that that
goes deeper. And so he'll like, he'll like
take a principle or something that that comes up in the story
of Jesus birth and he'll expand and go deeper and give you a
little bit more than you than you thought you that then he
could do in the chapter. So I I just really appreciate
him and. Just because he was my pastor
for so long, but also his he just has a way of like conveying
information in book form. I mean, he's a smarter than
anybody I know, but he can he can definitely like convey it to
us in a way that I understand. And so a savior is born by
Doctor Bill Cook or William F Cook on the title.
I'll put the I'll put it in the notes again.
Come in that to you for Christmas time.
Very, very good reference for us.
So that was my thing. I like this right now.
I've already said it on the podcast, which is crazy, but I
really like. I've had a chance to read it
now, so it's even more recommended.
Nice, nice. Yeah.
That's good. I I would love to read that book
too. It's always, like you said,
coming up to a time of year where.
You know, even thinking. As a pastor, you're, you're
almost tempted to, to not say anything because you just feel
like people tune out, right? Like you're going to sing
Christmas songs that, you know, everybody's heard 1000 times
before and not, not maybe more than 1000 times, right?
You, they're going to hear it 1000 times probably before we
sing it in church because people start celebrating Christmas a
month or two in advance, but then all over the years.
And so you just, you just assume that people are going to tune
things out. And so it is sometimes nice to
get a bit of a, a fresh spin or a fresh take.
I I know I've even heard of churches that will emphasize
some of the negative things about the Christmas story
because we so emphasize the positive things, right?
Like perfect. Little baby.
Who didn't even cry, right? The silent night.
Like whoever heard of a baby that didn't cry?
Yeah, exactly. And so you.
Emphasize all these perfect and everything was picture perfect
and the the little crib and I'm in the corner and there was nice
decor and all these like fancy things going on.
And it's like, yeah, what about Herod killing all the babies in
in Bethlehem? You know what about that?
What about Joseph Amir having to flee to Egypt?
You know, what about, you know, all these different things that
went wrong and there being no room in the inn and having to be
born in a stable, like. And so you take these like, so
I, I when I've heard those sermons, I'm like, that's
actually really interesting. Like, things didn't go the way
that they should have, right? That yeah, it was not a birth or
anything fit for a king, right. Doctor ELF, actually.
Doctor Jeff ELF back at home too, in their home church in
Louisville, he preached a sermon at Christmas time.
That was one of my favorite sermons ever preached.
And he brought something out about Herod and the and the, the
babies then. And I just thought, man, it's
such a good point and I'll try, I'll try to find that sermon and
link it too. It's it's a very good sermon to
listen to. And it was sort of taking
something that you haven't thought about, right.
Of course, Christmas goes. I have one more thing.
I like any when you you mentioned songs and then you and
I were talking about Christmas songs the other day and you're
not going to sing the song in church, but I will link it so
that people can hear it. Maybe you heard it already, but
it's called He who is Mighty. And just like the chorus of that
song talking about, you know. We we read all.
Through scripture about the might of the Lord, right?
The Lord of armies. You hear that in Psalms and and
then he says the, the the chorus of son says he who is mighty has
done a great thing taking on flesh and conquered death's
thing, shattered the darkness and lifted our shame.
Holy is his name and it's so cool to think about like Jesus,
who was there as the conduit of creation, right?
He's he's who with the the whole world, the universe was created
through. He's done a.
Great thing by taking on flesh so that he could conquer death,
lifting our shame and so that we can so he can be praised.
It's just an amazing thing to think about.
And so I wasn't always a lover of Christmas, but more and more
I am because it ushers in. I think it's fitting that we're
talking about the resurrection around Christmas as well because
without the resurrection, Christmas is meaningless.
And so I think it's just really, really good for us to to be
focused on the resurrection leading up in Advent as we
anticipate the birth of Christ, focusing on like what it all
means. Really, really cool.
The Lord worked that out for us. So, yeah.
And that's a. That song is based on Mary's
song. I don't know.
I don't know if you said that or not.
It's based on Mary's song in in Luke.
And so, yeah, just a beautiful reminder of of God bringing
beauty from the ashes. Maybe we introduce it.
At Easter. Maybe.
I'm just being. Stupid now, sorry.
It will It will get added. I'll, I'll say this, Lord
willing, if, if we're still around at some point, maybe
it'll be Lord willing and the Creek don't rise.
We will add that. Song 1.
Christmas. Nice.
That's really cool. OK.
So I don't have anything else for today.
I don't know if you do, but you wanted to add no.
No, I'm good. OK, well, we're going to do.
Something a little bit different today, instead of saying, hey,
LAMC, we appreciate you and we're praying for you.
I'm actually going to ask Pastor Joe if he would pray for us as
we close out today's episode. So Pastor Joe, would you pray
for us? Yes.
Lord, we're so. Grateful for the opportunity to
minister to these people. We are grateful that you have
called us as shepherds and we pray that you would help us,
help us as pastors to serve them well, to love them well.
We pray that that you would be with our church, all the
different things that that we have going on and then the
growth that we've been able to experience.
Or would you help us to to strive for community, for
relationship, that we want to go deeper and make connections.
And so we pray for our church that that they would take steps
and maybe going out of their comfort zone of inviting someone
over to their home for a meal or for a dessert or something and
just make a connection so that they can grow together in
Christ. And we do thank you for for all
the people and, and we pray, Lord, that you would continue to
grow us all together in Christ, that that you would build trust
and unity on the gospel that we are.
That is our central focus that the Christ died was buried and,
and was raised from the dead and, and all of the these vital
parts of our faith or that we are not trying to replace it
with anything else, but just simply trying to be faithful to
the gospel. Or would you help us, would you
unify us by the power of your spirit and help us as we seek to
build your Kingdom? And, and I just pray that this
Christmas season would be a blessing to our church and our
and our and our families that they would see the resurrection
as a as a vital part of that. And and put their faith and
trust in Christ and the gospel and the resurrection and and
that you would help them to live lives of boldness and courage
and faith and and sharing the message of the gospel around
this time when when people maybe are more open to hearing it than
others. Or would you give us a boldness
to proclaim Christ and Lord, Would you bear fruit in and
through our efforts as we share the gospel with others for the
glory of your name, We ask this in Jesus name, Amen.
Amen. Thank you, Joe.
Thank you, folks for listening to us.
We'll see you next week.