1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,960 I'm more apt to believe that we are in touch with something on 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,600 that level than a Bigfoot that we can't find. 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:10,280 But with that said, I can certainly believe that there 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,800 might be something in the ocean depths that we haven't found yet 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,200 or seen now. Is it a monster? 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,320 I think a great white shark is a fucking monster. 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,040 Welcome to Splintered spirits. I'm your host Gary, and along 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,720 with my nephew John Santa from Santa Paranormal, we try to 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,119 explore the potential answers to the question, What are spirits? 10 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,640 Today, I'm sitting down with one of the most respected skeptics 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,520 on the planet when it comes to hauntings, monsters, and 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,880 mysterious claims. Benjamin Radford is the deputy 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,840 editor of Skeptical Inquirer, a research fellow with the 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,440 Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, and the author or contributor to 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:53,080 more than 20 books, including Investigating Ghosts, Scientific 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,320 Paranormal Investigation, and Tracking the Chupacabra. 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,600 He has written thousands of articles on critical thinking, 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,080 folklore, and the strange corners of belief, and his work 19 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,840 has appeared everywhere from CNN and ABC News to The New York 20 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,880 Times and Scientific American. He has helped build some of the 21 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,600 smartest conversations in this space through podcasts like 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,440 Monster Talk and Squaring the Strange, listed on Splintered 23 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:20,840 Spirits. We talked to believers, 24 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,920 experiencers, investigators and storytellers. 25 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,240 And today we talked to the guy who walks into the same haunted 26 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,760 places, hears the same stories, and asks where is the evidence 27 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,600 and what is really happening here? 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,680 Some people love it. Some people are absolutely going 29 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,560 to hate it, but if we are ever going to figure out what spirits 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,240 are, we have to communicate with the other side. 31 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,880 And I don't mean the other side like the dead, I mean non 32 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,520 believers. Ben could not have been nicer 33 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,040 and a real joy to talk to. Let's dive into the 34 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,760 conversation. Ben, thank you so much for 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,120 joining Splendor Spirits today. Thanks for having me on, this is 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,520 going to be fun. Oh, yeah. 37 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,400 It's the look. If nothing else, we, we we have 38 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:05,880 fun with this. I mean, we're talking about 39 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,560 ghosts. I mean, if we can't have fun 40 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,560 doing it, what are we? You know, what's the? 41 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,320 Right. If you, if you can't, if you 42 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,440 can't make ghosts interesting, then there's something wrong 43 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,160 with you. So that's just, that's just how 44 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,080 it is. Well, believer or skeptic, 45 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,600 that's just the fact. I, I, I tell you, man, you know, 46 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,680 and I'm glad you said it that way because the way I started 47 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,800 this was trying to understand what my, what my nephew does. 48 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,920 And he is a top TikTok influencer. 49 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:35,360 He, he's not a ghost. He's not an investigator. 50 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:36,160 He'll tell you we're out of the gate. 51 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,400 He's not an investigator. He documents spirits and really 52 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,200 what he does, he just talks to his community. 53 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,080 He has a spirit box apps or spirit boxes going and they say 54 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,320 things and he comments or he got really famous. 55 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,320 What really launched him was he was one of the first people to 56 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,120 start walking cemeteries about four or five years ago. 57 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,920 Nobody was really doing that, certainly not on social media 58 00:02:56,920 --> 00:02:58,800 before that. And then he would clean 59 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,240 headstones and that and, and talk to spirits while doing it. 60 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:03,560 And that was what really launched him. 61 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,480 And the things and the responses he got were beyond the generic 62 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,160 that I get when I download these apps, right? 63 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:11,760 Which is what makes it interesting, right? 64 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:18,000 So I got into it because I'm like, OK, dude, what is going on 65 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,040 now? You got a million people 66 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,440 following you. It's like you can start your own 67 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,000 religion or something. And this seems insane, you know, 68 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,840 So what you know, and I, I wouldn't say I'm a skeptic. 69 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,080 I think I'm in hell. I'm a hell. 70 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,600 I'm curious, right? Like one of our things is to 71 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,520 stay curious and I want to know what's going on. 72 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,960 And I've been, I'm talking to everyone with this podcast in 73 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,400 terms of mediums and witches and parapsychologists and academics 74 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,760 and authors and, and skeptics. And then when I came across your 75 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,560 name and, and I've spoken to some other people that like CFI 76 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,880 as well. What I really am fascinated 77 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,720 about your background is you seem, and correct me if I'm 78 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,880 wrong, you like to investigate claims as opposed to straight up 79 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,520 dismissing them and it would you say that distinction is fair to 80 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,840 say and is that an an important distinction to you? 81 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:12,240 Yeah, absolutely, partly because you know, if the the fact of the 82 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,280 matter is that you don't know if you don't look. 83 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,640 And that's true regardless of what it is, right. 84 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:23,200 And so, so I've always been a believer in and trying to find 85 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,080 out. So, you know, when I was a kid, 86 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,200 when I was a teenager, I would see these stories about, you 87 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,200 know, the Loch Ness Monster and UFOs and ghosts and the weird 88 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,400 stuff everywhere. And I'm like, this is super 89 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,120 cool. Like I, I, I love this, right? 90 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,800 This is spirits and, and you know, and dark forces and all 91 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,520 sorts of crazy stuff around me. And then, but, but as I began 92 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,440 consuming a lot of the stuff and a lot of the materials at the 93 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,560 time, this is in the, this is in the in the 80s, That's how old I 94 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,280 am. And, you know, this is long 95 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,680 before, of course, podcast and, and, and, and YouTube and stuff. 96 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,280 And what I found was that there was very little actual 97 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:02,360 investigation. It was mostly people I don't 98 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:03,560 want to see talking out of their ass. 99 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,000 But it was just sort of like, Hey, here's a story that I heard 100 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,880 about some spirit that haunts, you know, some hotel, like, OK, 101 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,600 right. And it wasn't really until you, 102 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,120 you a couple day decade, decades later, when when you had the 103 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,960 TAPS team going out there, you had the popularization of ghost 104 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,400 hunting, things like that. And all of a sudden there's this 105 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:28,760 sort of grassroots explosion of interest in the paranormal and 106 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,360 ghosts specifically. And, and at that point, I'm 107 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:33,840 like, OK, well, this is interesting. 108 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:36,480 And, you know, so the, the question then became, how can we 109 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,040 approach these scientifically, right? 110 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,840 So we have the world around us, we have things that we, we know 111 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,760 exist, right? We know that fish exist. 112 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,080 We know that cheese exist. We know that electricity exists. 113 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:50,720 There's lots of things that we know exist. 114 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,720 And the question becomes, you know, how do we know those those 115 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,280 things exist? And can we apply those same 116 00:05:56,280 --> 00:06:00,080 processes to ghosts? So that's that's always been my 117 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,720 position is you shouldn't be, you shouldn't just dismiss 118 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,960 things out of hand because you you don't know. 119 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,240 On the other hand, you shouldn't just accept any random things 120 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,600 being evidence of ghosts. Was there ever one? 121 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,360 Was there one single moment early on, like a a specific case 122 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,960 or something or or story that really pushed you hard into what 123 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,960 people would categorize you as becoming a professional skeptic? 124 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:31,080 There, there were a couple, you know, some of them were cases 125 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,800 that I, I'd read about as a, as a, as a kid, right? 126 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,760 So I would pick up, you know, the, the Reader's Digest book of 127 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,440 mysteries, you know, you know the kind I'm talking about, the 128 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:42,920 mysteries, unknown, all those sorts of things. 129 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,240 And I used to love that. In fact, I, I've got, I've got a 130 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:50,080 big stack of them behind me. That's, that's those books right 131 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,000 there. That's, that's, that's, that's, 132 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,400 you know, a third of my of my shelf of those. 133 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,720 And so I would see all these mysteries presented on, you 134 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,360 know, in search of and, you know, that's incredible for, for 135 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,720 those and just all these other shows. 136 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,640 And and so though I would see just all in. 137 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,880 It was like, it was almost like thrown. 138 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,960 It was like the kitchen sink approach, like there's ghosts, 139 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:13,920 there's mysteries or, you know, it was all just sort of lumped 140 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,840 together and thrown at the thrown at the at the audience. 141 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,880 And I'm like, well, you know, in some ways that's kind of 142 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,760 disingenuous because because just because somebody somewhere 143 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,320 doesn't know the explanation, all that means is that some 144 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,760 random do doesn't know the explanation, doesn't mean that 145 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,600 others haven't solved it, doesn't mean has been 146 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,560 investigated, and it doesn't mean that that there aren't 147 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,640 explanations for these things. So I think one of the first ones 148 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,160 that really, really jumped out at me was the case of the moving 149 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,280 coffins and Barbados. Do you know the Chase Vault 150 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,000 story? No, tell me. 151 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,720 I don't know. By the way, I'm this is what I 152 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,760 love because I don't know much about the paranormal. 153 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,120 This is sort of my journey into figuring, learning about it. 154 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,040 So tell me about this this story, Barbados. 155 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,080 Yeah, OK. So this. 156 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,040 Is this might be a reason why I never go to Barbados by the way, 157 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,920 But let's hear it. So, yeah, so it's, it's, it's, 158 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,920 it's a long, it's, it's kind of a complicated story in some 159 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,000 ways. It's a very simple story. 160 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,960 I'll, I'll spare you the, the, the details, but basically there 161 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,880 was this famous case that I can, I read about when I was 8 or 10 162 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,800 or something. I'm like, oh, because I, I grew 163 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,160 up here in New Mexico. I'm still in New Mexico, land of 164 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,680 Breaking Bad and bugs bunnies, what we're loving for. 165 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,280 I've been loving Pluribus right now too, but yeah. 166 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:27,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't seen it. 167 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,720 I'm the last person on earth who hasn't seen it yet. 168 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,880 Oh, it's so good. But it's so, so I grew up here 169 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,240 and, and so all like all these mysteries, they all seem very 170 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:37,840 far away. It's like, you know, the Loch 171 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,720 Ness Monster is in Scotland. Where's Scotland? 172 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,760 It's some island by the North Pole, just like as you're a kid, 173 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,840 it's just some, some far away place, right? 174 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,400 And, and so there were all these mysteries that were intriguing 175 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,440 to me because they're presented as mysterious and unknown and 176 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,080 unexplainable. And some, maybe some of them 177 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,760 were, but, but I was like, well, I, I was just a kid. 178 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,360 I can, I can figure I can't really investigate this because, 179 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,880 you know, I'm 10, I live in the desert. 180 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,920 I'm not in these places, but one of the ones that had jumped out 181 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,360 at me was the chase vault story. And again, I'll give you the the 182 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,240 short version. So the story is that there's 183 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:20,800 this this, this, this vault, this cemetery in Barbados. 184 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,160 And it's was owned by the Chase family. 185 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,760 And the story is that the starting, I think in the 1820s, 186 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:34,960 I want to say that there was this family and, and they would, 187 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,320 they had this big, this big stone slab and they would bury, 188 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,280 as you know, because it was a family vault. 189 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,040 Whenever somebody died, you know, they would, they would 190 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,640 push a cut the push aside this huge stone and they'd put in 191 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,760 the, the, the, the coffins like Jesus, yes, very much like 192 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,640 Jesus. But he, there, there was no 193 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,080 returning in this case. And, and the story was that, 194 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,040 that the first, this happened a couple times and that the 195 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,600 coffins would be moved. And so the story was that 196 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,920 because, you know, again, this family and every now and then, 197 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,520 you know, some infant would die and, you know, for childhood 198 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,680 disease or some elderly relative, whatever else. 199 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,320 And over the course of decades, every time they, they pushed 200 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,040 aside these, this huge stone that took 666 grown men to move 201 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:21,680 the, the, the coffins had been moved. 202 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:25,240 And the question is. And this is what years, what 203 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,680 years were this? This is 18. 204 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:30,360 Well, it actually went over the course of several decades, but I 205 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,600 think it was 1818, eighties, 1870s crossing, you know, for 206 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,880 for many years. So this is this is sort of, this 207 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,640 is, I want to say a mystery set in stone, but it's it's sort of 208 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,040 a dusty mystery. In other words, it's not 209 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,520 actively happening today. Anyway, so today's your 210 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:47,880 question. That was one of the first ones 211 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,600 that really intrigued me. You feel like moving coffins, 212 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:52,840 How is this possible? Right. 213 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,560 And so there's all these different explanations. 214 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:55,840 Some people thought it was voodoo. 215 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,520 Some people said it was grave robbers, but #1 nothing was 216 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,720 stolen from the coffins. And #2 that they would you, you 217 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,760 would have to move the stone put and then push it back. 218 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,440 And it would, it would take eight people to do this. 219 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,200 And this is a small island in, in, you know, in the Caribbean 220 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,680 anyway. So as it happened, I actually 221 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:16,400 went there and investigated. So I, I was there for a cruise 222 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,320 actually. And they're like, Hey, do you 223 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,640 want to go scuba dive? And like, no, I want to go 224 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,880 investigate this, this famous mystery. 225 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,040 OK, so I spent the, spent most of the afternoon there. 226 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,480 I took a bunch of photos and, and I interviewed some people. 227 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,240 And I actually, I, I think I did a pretty good job of solving the 228 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,120 case, but that's one of the first ones where. 229 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,360 Can you tell me what you can't leave me like that bro? 230 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,520 What's the why? How'd the coffins get moved? 231 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:46,680 So the the the the short version of the story is that is that the 232 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:51,680 legend itself is made-up. In other words, the the claims 233 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:55,000 about the movie coffins that that is the legend. 234 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,280 In other words, it's not that it's not that the coffins 235 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:59,840 removed. No one knows how it happens. 236 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,120 Like the coffins weren't actually moved. 237 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,800 That's that that that is itself the legend. 238 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,120 It's like, it's like, it's like when I blame my wife because I 239 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,400 can't find my car keys and I say that she moved them. 240 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,560 Exactly. And in some ways, I mean there's 241 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:14,280 even parallel to the Bell Witch story in Tennessee. 242 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,760 And and so and, and, and, and I've investigated many cases 243 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,280 like that. There was 1 here in Albuquerque 244 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,080 called the the Chemo Theatre Ghost. 245 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,320 And it's a one of the famous haunted locations in the 246 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:25,880 Southwest, certainly in New Mexico. 247 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,520 And again, I'll, I'll spare you the whole story, but basically 248 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,280 there was this, it's a theater, it's about maybe 5 miles from 249 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,440 here. And it's allegedly haunted by a 250 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,600 boy ghost. And if you if you don't leave 251 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,160 doughnuts for him, because who doesn't love doughnuts? 252 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,000 Sure, everybody loves. Certainly boy ghosts do. 253 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,640 Of course, the the story is that if you didn't leave doughnuts 254 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,120 for him, then he would haunt the theater. 255 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,040 So he would like, he would like ruin performances there if they 256 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,800 had plays and things like that. And again, I, I grew up hearing 257 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,320 about this story cause 'cause it's every Halloween. 258 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,960 Hey, do you know about the Keno Theatre ghost? 259 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,760 So I grew up, I'm like, and finally I'm like, is this true? 260 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,720 It's like, I, I'm, I'm a ghost investigator. 261 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,800 I've written books on this. I I, but I hadn't actually 262 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,800 investigated one of the most famous cases in my home state. 263 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,520 So once again, I, I circled back and I did investigations and I 264 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,000 interviewed people there. And, and you know, this goes 265 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,240 back to what you're saying. Gary's it was, it was not, it 266 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,080 was not a matter of like, this can't be true. 267 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,040 This is all bullshit. I'm like, I don't know if this 268 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,760 is bullshit. I, I, I sincerely don't, I'm 269 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,320 skeptical, but you don't know if you don't look. 270 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,240 So those are a couple of examples where, you know, it was 271 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,640 important to me to not just be the sort of dismissive debunker. 272 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,200 I'm not a debunker at all. I in the course of investigating 273 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,520 things, I sometimes debunk them, but I don't, I don't go into 274 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,000 them saying this can't be true. Let me prove it. 275 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:52,920 I'm with you. I, I'm, I, I say this all the 276 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:53,480 time. I don't. 277 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,040 I find debunking unfun. It's and and easy, right And to 278 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,320 me. Well, it's also beside the 279 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,320 point. I mean, if you look, I mean why 280 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,720 and, and, and this is this is this is one thing I've never 281 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,480 understood, like when, when I or other skeptics get accused of 282 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,360 being debunkers. My question is, why would I 283 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:13,920 bother? Like why? 284 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:18,720 If, if you're so certain that I know that ghosts don't exist, 285 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,240 I've never claimed the ghosts don't exist. 286 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,280 That's not a scientific claim. But the question because would 287 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:28,040 be like if you knew something was not true and why would you 288 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,320 spend days or weeks on that? You just be like, oh, this is 289 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:33,520 not true. I'm going to waste my time. 290 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,000 So so, but there's. Certainly there are certainly 291 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,120 skeptics in in your field specifically too that just 292 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,960 believe that ghosts aren't real or spirits are real. 293 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,880 That that's true. I mean, but, but, but I mean, 294 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,800 you have to make a distinction between investigative skeptics 295 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,480 and just sort of general people who who think that ghosts don't 296 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:50,800 exist. I mean now. 297 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,760 Do you believe ghosts exist? I Do you believe in spirits? 298 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,680 Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's, I'm not trying to be 299 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,120 evasive, but it sort of depends. I mean, I haven't seen, I 300 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,360 haven't personally seen good evidence of ghosts. 301 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,680 I've looked, I've, I've wrote a book called Investigating 302 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,400 Ghosts. Shameless plug. 303 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,480 Yeah, I know it's listen, I'm going to plug. 304 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:14,560 I'm going to plug all your stuff for. 305 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:15,080 Sure. Yeah. 306 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,000 No, I'm, I'm just, I was just, I was just, I was just playing 307 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,000 with you. But no, I mean, so, I mean, so 308 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,640 it's like, you know, do I believe they exist? 309 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,200 I don't think so, but I'm certainly open to I'm, I'm open 310 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,200 to suggestion. I'm I'm always happy to hear to, 311 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,960 to have to see evidence. The problem is in my experience 312 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,160 that when I've contact, when I've I've been on ghost hunts 313 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,240 with, with believers, I mean, I do that all the time. 314 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,920 I've been dozen lots of cases. I've been on TV shows, private 315 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,880 investigations, public investigations, so on. 316 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,880 And I'm always there again, if I was sure this was all, you know, 317 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,240 not true, I wouldn't waste my time. 318 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,080 I have. Better well, like that. 319 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,320 I well, I like that about you, but I like the fact that you're 320 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,800 going there with this site like you want it sounds. 321 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,360 Tell me if I'm wrong. It sounds like you want to be 322 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,440 proven wrong. Yeah, absolutely right. 323 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,000 Wouldn't that be wild? Yeah, Well, this is the thing, 324 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,640 right? I mean, I'm in fact, I, I'll 325 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,160 tell you, I had to, I, I was doing an investigation in in St. 326 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,200 Catharines ON just outside of Niagara Falls, about an hour 327 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,320 South of Toronto. And I was doing investigation at 328 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,440 this place, this, this haunted Fort and it was like, it was, it 329 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,640 was, we spent a couple days there overnight freezing cold 330 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,160 like Buffalo in November. Like whose idea was this? 331 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,000 And, and, and I'm talking to this, this guy and, and, and he, 332 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,840 he's, he's, he's a hardcore believer. 333 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,680 He was part of, I think it was called the, the Golden Horseshoe 334 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,840 ghost hunting groups. There's A, and the Golden 335 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,680 Horseshoe again between Buffalo and, and, and Toronto, There's 336 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,720 this Niagara Falls and Burlington, lots of ghost 337 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,200 centers there. And I was sort of the token 338 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,920 skeptic and we're, when we was like 2:00 in the morning and 339 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,800 we're just, we're just chatting. There's, there's, there's 340 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,320 cameras all around. We're waiting for something to 341 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,040 happen. And at some point, again, we're 342 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:00,640 tired. We're, we're eating lots of, you 343 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,560 know, Tim bits and Tim horton's coffee, trying to stay awake for 344 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:04,720 this thing because nothing's happening. 345 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,880 Nothing's happening. And I'm, and I turned, I turned 346 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,000 to this guy. I'm like, we've been here for 347 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,000 two days nothing's happening, dude, and it's like I'm like, I 348 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,720 understand ghost only perform on command. 349 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:22,800 So you know, they're they're arguably they're arguably, you 350 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,560 know, entities that are tricksters. 351 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,240 They'll do something and they won't do it another time. 352 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,319 I I said, I get all that, but I said, look, here's the deal. 353 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,520 I said, I pointed to there was this, there was a big, big 354 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,120 grandfather clock in, in the room where at the, at the, at 355 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,480 Fort Niagara. And I said, look, if we're all 356 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,720 here right now, if that clock flew up in the air and flew 357 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,760 across the room, I would be a believer in an instant. 358 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,160 I would, I would be like, Yep, I was here. 359 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,520 There's no strings attached. I saw this thing fly. 360 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,120 There's I mean, I would be like, this is all it would take. 361 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,440 And he's like, yeah, I know. And we. 362 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,760 And so, yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting because it was, 363 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,040 you know, we're not on camera. We're not, we're not having a, a 364 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,680 debate for television. We're just two guys hanging out. 365 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,280 We're cold, we're tired. We, we're both, we both, we're 366 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,440 both fascinated by ghosts. He, he believes there's ghosts 367 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,520 all around. I'm not so sure that things he's 368 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,880 thinking of ghosts aren't, are in fact ghosts. 369 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,720 But we're just, we're just two guys talking. 370 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,800 And I'm like, look, this is the problem that I have here is 371 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,960 that, you know, I come to these ghost hunts. 372 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,400 I I, I see these TV shows, I see all these things. 373 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,320 It's all this ambiguous evidence. 374 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,800 It's, you know, we set up five cameras and this chair did that. 375 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:42,640 Well, OK, I mean, or we set up an EVP and you know, we, we, we, 376 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,560 we, we recorded things and did you hear that? 377 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,080 Did you hear that? Oh my God, this would I'm like 378 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,920 come on, man. Right, OK. 379 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,960 I mean, listen, I, I, I get, I get it, I get what you're 380 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,600 saying. But let me ask, let me ask you 381 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,680 this from your experience from talking to these people, you 382 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,840 know when they say like I know what I saw and you can't tell me 383 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,720 I didn't experience it, how do you respond without dismissing 384 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,000 the the sort of the emotional reality of that experience for 385 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,560 them? How do you handle? 386 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,000 That how do you handle that? Person No, no, that, that's an 387 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,120 excellent question and part of it goes back to my background in 388 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,160 psychology. So I've, I have a bachelor's 389 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,200 degree in psychology, got a master's in education and public 390 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,920 health as well. Not bragging here, but but my 391 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,920 background psychology actually helps inform a lot of my 392 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,320 investigations because when you're talking to ghost 393 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,040 experiencers, for lack of a better word, for the most part, 394 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,160 they're sincere. I, I, I can tell you personally, 395 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,400 90% of the people that I've met who have told me about their 396 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,560 ghost experiences, I believe them. 397 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,480 I, I, I, they're not crazy. They're not lying. 398 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,600 I don't think they're hoaxing. They're not. 399 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,960 This is not bullshit. They sincerely had some 400 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,720 experience like I, I don't, I don't doubt that at all. 401 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,720 The question is, is, is their interpretation of that 402 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,240 experience correct? The question is, you know, and, 403 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,080 and, and we can get into the phenomenology of ghosts, right? 404 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,520 We can get into when people report ghosts, what do they mean 405 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:12,840 by that? And that's important. 406 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,000 And I, I think that often times ghost hunters, they sort of 407 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,640 elide that they sort of like ghost, blah, blah. 408 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,200 And I'm like, no, we take a step back here. 409 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,200 What do you mean by ghost? And and as as you know. 410 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,400 You know, different people mean different things by ghosts. 411 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,800 So to some people a ghost is a playful little unseen spirit in 412 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,680 their house or at work that like moves their keys or turns on the 413 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,880 radio when they step out or does little things like that. 414 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,080 To other people, that's not a ghost at all. 415 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,520 To other people, a ghost is some sort of like semi transparent 416 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,080 thing they saw on video camera from informed by TV and things 417 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,920 like that. So, so where I'm going with this 418 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,120 is that in my, in my experience, the best way to understand these 419 00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:01,120 topics is to recognize that the word ghost is a label for an 420 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:05,840 experience, right? Because what is a ghost like? 421 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,040 You can, you can go, you can mirror and Webster. 422 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,160 I mean, the fact, the fact is that I can give you 4 or five 423 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,560 different definitions of ghosts that are mutually exclusive, 424 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,360 right? Some people think that you, if 425 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,240 you subscribe to to stone tape theory, it's you know, some, 426 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,120 some event happened get it, you know, Gettysburg battlefield or 427 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:27,000 some murder, whatever else. And the emotions and the 428 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,120 passions seeped into the environment, the trees, the 429 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:33,960 stones, the, the architecture, the walls and that are then 430 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,880 replayed. Other people say, no, that's not 431 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,440 correct. Ghosts are instead 432 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,960 interdimensional beings. Other people say, well, no, 433 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,920 that's not correct. Ghosts are spirits that that 434 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,040 can't transition for whatever reason, right. 435 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,760 So there's three or four or five or more different, different, 436 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,080 different, different definitions. 437 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,720 And so anyway, to answer your question, a part of it is, is 438 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,640 because I recognize that when someone tells me that they see a 439 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,160 ghost or they experience a ghost, it's, again, it's as 440 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,160 investigators, it's important for me to understand. 441 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,720 What do you mean by that? Because I can tell you, and 442 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,040 I've, I've done this before. I've I've, I've been in a room 443 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,960 with five different people and they, they, they, they say they 444 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,920 all saw a ghost. But when you, if you just talk 445 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,280 to me like, oh, they all five people saw ghosts. 446 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,160 But if you actually listen to what they say, if you ask 447 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,680 questions respectfully and things like that, you realize 448 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,320 they're talking about different things. 449 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,520 They're not talking about the same the thing. 450 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,520 And it's important to to make these distinction if you're 451 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,520 going to investigate. So that's, that's part of it to 452 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,200 me is because I'm coming from a background of psychology and 453 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,400 because it's important for me to understand what's going on, 454 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,560 right. So if someone says I saw a 455 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,560 ghost, my answer is not, no, you didn't. 456 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,200 My answer is not That's crazy. My answer is, that's 457 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,240 interesting. What do you mean by that? 458 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,480 Tell me. Tell me what you experienced. 459 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,600 Tell me what you photographed. Tell me what you heard. 460 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,760 And let's look at the context and see. 461 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,800 Is that the most likely explanation for it? 462 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:08,280 What would constitute meaningful evidence to you of a ghost? 463 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,560 Well, so, well, I give one example, which would be you 464 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,040 know, of grandfather clock spinning in the air, flying 465 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,720 through the I mean, that would be. 466 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,320 OK, but but all right, I, I heard you say that before, but 467 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,480 let me ask you this. If I showed you a video of that, 468 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,800 you would you believe it? No, you would have to. 469 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:30,920 It sounds like you would have to be there to fit personally be an 470 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:31,880 eyewitness. Is that? 471 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,720 Is that not? Necessarily so, for example. 472 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:35,840 But. But I mean, you're asking 473 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,040 exactly the right questions, right? 474 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,880 Because if you're going to have me or anybody else come on and 475 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,280 say I want evidence for ghosts, it's a fair question to say what 476 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,400 evidence do you want? Right? 477 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:47,880 What? What are you waiting for? 478 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:48,400 Right? What? 479 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,400 What are you looking for? I'm just curious, yeah. 480 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:51,320 What would make you a question A? 481 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,560 Believer it's a it's a, it's a valid question. 482 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,880 So, so, you know, so the, the broader question is the, the, 483 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,800 the, the bulk of the problem really is that the bulk of 484 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,320 evidence offered for ghost as with evidence for Bigfoot as 485 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,160 evidence for aliens and psychics. 486 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,840 I mean, again, I'm not. Oh, we're going to get we're 487 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,640 going to get into cryptics. I don't know if it's coming out. 488 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,640 We'll get we'll get that. We'll get down there in a 489 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,520 second. But here's. 490 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,920 What I'm saying is it is it, is it in a way they're all sort of, 491 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,520 they're all of a kind, right? Because in, in all these cases, 492 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,800 what you have is the bulk of the evidence is actually anecdotes. 493 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,520 It's stories. It's someone says they saw 494 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,760 something, someone says they heard something someone says. 495 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,920 And again, they maybe they did. I'd, I, I don't know. 496 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,200 I wasn't there. The problem is that just 497 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,920 eyewitness anecdotes and stories, they're not good 498 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,920 evidence. They're just not Police 499 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,520 detectives know this. Psychologists know this, right? 500 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,280 So, I mean, just someone said they saw something. 501 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:51,000 My answer is, OK, I what what do you want me to do with that? 502 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,200 Right. Someone says, oh, you know, I 503 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,760 was camping in the woods last week. 504 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,960 I saw something dark and hairy in the woods like. 505 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,440 What would make but other than you, but again, other than you 506 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,880 just being there to eyewitness see the clock fly across the 507 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,720 room, what would someone present to you then you would say, well, 508 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,680 I guess my job here is done. This exists. 509 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,920 You're right. So there's so there's so there's 510 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,320 a couple answers that one of them is that, you know, if, if 511 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,800 you're going to talk about ghosts specifically, right? 512 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,320 So, so I'll give you the like the grandfather clock I 513 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,080 mentioned earlier, right? So, so why would that not be 514 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,920 necessarily be good evidence for ghosts, right? 515 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,200 The answer is that we don't know why that clock flew across the 516 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,400 flew across the room, right? It's fair enough, right. 517 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,760 So for example, so if if someone said to me, so let's to take 518 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,800 this example in Niagara Falls, you know in Ontario in the 519 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,400 middle of middle of November about 10-12 years ago, if that 520 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,000 grandfather clock had flown across the room, he would say 521 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,840 we're in a ghost haunted place that was clearly ghost. 522 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,240 I would say that might have been a ghost or it could be that it 523 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,080 could be that, you know, maybe there's a maybe there's a person 524 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,200 with psychic psychokinetic abilities, right? 525 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,080 People claim to be able to move objects with their mind or 526 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,080 Geller and many other people. So, so again, this is part of 527 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,920 the problem when you're investigating these things is 528 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:17,920 how do you rule out those explanations? 529 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,320 So, so if, if someone, and again, this this applies to all 530 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,560 ghost evidence, right? Whatever it is, whether it's a 531 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,520 needle moving or a, a sound, an EVP, whatever it is, could it be 532 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,400 a ghost? Sure, anything is possible. 533 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,000 The question is what is the evidence for it? 534 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,000 So let me give you one example of what would be considered to 535 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,560 be good evidence for for for Evps. 536 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,440 Let's just take Evps as a simple example. 537 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:52,960 So good evidence would be so you know, this, but just for the 538 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,160 audience. So Evps basically are are, you 539 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,440 know, electronic voice phenomena. 540 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,160 So these are allegedly voices from the dead people who are no 541 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,000 longer with us that, well, obviously they can't communicate 542 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,880 because they don't have vocal cords and tongues and teeth and 543 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,640 things like that. But they, they communicate 544 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,360 through, through different sounds, static, for example, you 545 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,720 know, different devices and so on. 546 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:18,560 So the question then becomes, OK, well, how do we know? 547 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,040 How would we know? How would, how could we 548 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,280 logically know that we're getting information from the 549 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,760 other side, right? How, how? 550 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,360 So there's a couple answers to that, but the main answer is 551 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,120 information that only that person would know, right? 552 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,360 So this Albert Einstein, right? So Einstein is dead. 553 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,800 He's been dead for a long time. There are details about 554 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,520 Einstein's life that only his biographers know. 555 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,360 There are, I mean there are so or we could pick anybody if 556 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,120 someone who died recently, well then, right. 557 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,760 This is the Houdini thing right? Like where you gave a like. 558 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,000 A yeah, exactly believe right. So so this so anyways, but 559 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,040 again, so this this goes back to your question, right? 560 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,880 So if someone presented to me an EVP that was clearly of somebody 561 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,560 who who was dead. So, I mean, it was, we know they 562 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,760 died. You know, if they're, if they're 563 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,440 notable enough to have an EVP about them, then presumably, you 564 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,280 know, there's somebody famous Kennedy, John F Kennedy, for 565 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,360 example, right. So Kennedy died 1963. 566 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:28,040 And if there was an EVP of Kennedy talking about Obama or 567 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,080 Kennedy talking about Trump or Kennedy talking about some 568 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,560 current event, that could be proven right. 569 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,120 So this is a current event. This happened yesterday. 570 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,640 John F Kennedy's ghost is presumably still with us, right? 571 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,120 I mean, that this, that's the premise, is that ghosts are 572 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,160 still with us. They can hear, they can, they 573 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,920 know what's going on. They can interact with us. 574 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,080 They know about current events. That's that's part that's often 575 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,000 part of the premise. Right in one definite, right in 576 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,080 one definition of A. Sure, Yeah, yeah. 577 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,960 So, so, yeah, so I mean, but that's, so that's that's that's 578 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,320 one example. So, or, you know, again, if you, 579 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,720 if you have part of the problem is that the vast majority of 580 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:12,640 Evps are banal things like, you know, Maria, I love you, get 581 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,640 out, you know, murder, right? So I, I, I, I've, I've listened 582 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,600 to, you know this right? And so, so this is the problem. 583 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,520 This is the problem for ghost hunters who want to hang their 584 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,920 hats, their evidential hats on Evps is that with very few 585 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,800 exceptions, I would argue none, but I'm, I'm, I'm willing to 586 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,440 listen to them. With very few exceptions, the 587 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,960 the supposed ghost responses are generic, banal. 588 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,400 They're nothing that's identifiable. 589 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,240 It it there's nothing that says, you know, yes, I'm the ghost of 590 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,240 this. I died here in 1926. 591 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,400 I was shot by and this is the other question, right? 592 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,360 It's like you have all these unsolved homicides, unsolved 593 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,760 murders, unsolved disappearances, right? 594 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:02,240 You have just. I, I, I see, I see where you're 595 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:03,400 going with it. I think, though, I think we're 596 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,360 going to in the weeds on, I think I, I, I find that when it 597 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,720 comes to ghosts, even if I presented you like if I walked 598 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,240 up, OK, here's this house I investigated. 599 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,560 Here is 24/7 recordings of the house without anybody in it. 600 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,320 We know where all the creeks are. 601 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,400 We checked the plum. Here's a plumbing report. 602 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,880 Here's every noise. We did a whole, here's a graph 603 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,880 of all the EMF readings so we know where all the hotspots are. 604 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,000 And now here's the differential. Once we did a Ouija board 605 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,880 session, we brought a medium in and look, here's like, you know, 606 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,240 here's some like all these tools using these evidence, right? 607 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,000 Then it's like, look, then we captured, you know, here was 608 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360 this room with we had the most high def camera possible. 609 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:48,880 Like whatever, I'm just making shit up, right? 610 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,360 But we use all this stuff and it's like there's clearly 611 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,880 something. Plus we have 6 eyewitnesses that 612 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,160 we had people sleep in the house. 613 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,000 We had, we had a, a triple blind. 614 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,880 We had people go there that didn't know that we were sending 615 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,840 them there for a ghost investigate. 616 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,040 You know, thing we sent 3 mediums in there, 3 alleged 617 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,320 mediums in there that that say they have psychic bills. 618 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,960 And we said 3 laymen in there and had no idea. 619 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,680 It was just that they thought it was an Airbnb and then we took 620 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,800 their reports of things that, you know, all this stuff. 621 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,440 We have this testimony before, after this that, and it was 622 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,760 like, wow, something's weird in this house. 623 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,600 Like for all accounts. Would you still believe? 624 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,120 Would you? Believe it unless you experience 625 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,680 I think that's the thing with ghost stories. 626 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,280 It's almost like even if what my point be like I have with with 627 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,080 the EVP, with the thing with the EMF reading, with the change, 628 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,880 with the reports and then the the difference there this that I 629 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,760 think it with ghosts, there's always going to be either a 630 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,360 yeah, I got to. See it to believe. 631 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,440 It I think that ultimately at the end of the day, someone 632 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,320 other than like a scientist would be like, wow, did you read 633 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,480 this in Scientific magazine? I guess we solved cancer. 634 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,280 You know, they just, you know, they're going to take the word 635 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,360 of another scientist based on their the test. 636 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,240 But there's no test in the ghost world that someone will look at 637 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,720 and be like, wow, they did it. Wow. 638 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,160 I guess there's ghosts you don't like. 639 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,560 There's just nothing I don't think. 640 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,000 So. So there's a couple things #1 641 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,040 because of my background psychology, because I've done 642 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:17,440 this for a long time, unlike most of the ghost hunters, I 643 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,320 would actually more be be more skeptical of my own anecdotes 644 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,720 because I am so aware of how people, including me, including 645 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,760 this guy right here, I'm very aware of how we can all 646 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,800 misunderstand, misunderstand things and misperceive things. 647 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,400 So in the same way that I often talk to ghost hunters who are 648 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,320 like, I know what I saw, you know, I was there. 649 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,040 I'm like, well, number, you know, OK, I, I know you were 650 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:45,960 there. But here's the distinction, 651 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,440 right? Is that is that when I talk to 652 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,240 ghost hunters and same thing with with Bigfoot, Bigfoot 653 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,480 ciders and so on, they are so certain of their own 654 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,080 infallibility. They are so certain, like I know 655 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,040 what I saw. That's that's a common phrase. 656 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,560 I know what I saw. My question is how do you know 657 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,400 what you saw? And I'm not being sarcastic. 658 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,280 I'm I'm being right because you tell me like this. 659 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,640 This is the problem, right? Someone says I saw that I know 660 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,840 it's a ghost. How do you know it's a ghost? 661 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,760 I'm. Again, I'm being totally. 662 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,160 Sincere right and I'll I'll give you so it at that same haunted 663 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,160 location in in Canada. I had a woman come up to me 664 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,240 during that she was like a three day shoot. 665 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,120 And she's like, Hey, can you listen to this EVPA recorded? 666 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,320 And I said, yeah, sure, whatever. 667 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,080 And I said, I said, I will listen to your. 668 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,680 She had one of those, one of those parabolic mirror things 669 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:42,760 and the other whole, the whole thing. 670 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,760 I said, I will listen to your, I will listen to whatever you have 671 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,680 to say. But first answer me question. 672 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,000 I said, what, what do you think you have? 673 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,880 She says, well, I have a child ghost. 674 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,240 I I was in this part of the I was in this part of the, the, 675 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,120 the Fort and it was a couple hours ago. 676 00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,960 And you know, I listen. I said. 677 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,440 I said I again. Being totally. 678 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,160 Sincere, How do you know it's a child ghost? 679 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,800 And she said, what do you mean? I said, well, I know what a 680 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,000 human child sounds like. I mean, I know what that sounds 681 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,360 like. I know what a human sounds like. 682 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,920 I sincerely don't know what a child ghost sounds like. 683 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,199 How do you know? How, how can you be so certain? 684 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,679 I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm, I'm being sincere. 685 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,239 How can you be so sure what you recorded must be child ghost? 686 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,520 Cause 'cause what are we comparing that to, right For 687 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,560 all, I mean, again, being totally sincere. 688 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,639 Like for all we know, a child ghost could sound like a donkey. 689 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,360 It could sound like a, a, a pencil sharpener. 690 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,080 We no, I'm being sincere. We don't. 691 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:49,440 No, no, no I. I am listen, I, I, I totally 692 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,600 agree. I totally get what you're 693 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,600 saying. Anyway, so so the the. 694 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,040 Rapper to the stories and and and it was interesting because 695 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,360 like nobody's ever answered that before. 696 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:58,880 And again, I'm not being a Dick. I'm not being, I'm, I'm being 697 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,360 sincere, like I will, I will listen to your EVP. 698 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,000 How can you be so certain that it's what you assume it is? 699 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,880 And she sort of thought for a second she's like, well, it just 700 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,840 sounds like when I'm like, OK, that's, that's that's a fair 701 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,120 admission. It sounds like when. 702 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,000 But but The thing is, the fact, the fact is you, you don't know. 703 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,160 But let me just let me circle back to your original question. 704 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:21,360 Yeah, yeah, please. Yeah. 705 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,560 So, so here's the here's the biggest problem that I've 706 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,160 encountered is, is, is is a lack of baseline, Right. 707 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,400 So ghost hunters go into a location and they go in, 708 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,400 sometimes they go in the witching hour, you know, they, 709 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,680 they, they, they show up around 8:00 in the eight in the 710 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,320 evening. They have lunch, they have 711 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,200 dinner, whatever else. They set up cameras at 3:00. 712 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,920 They're wandering around doing all those sorts of things. 713 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,000 So they're for, they're there for overnight, you know, 10-12 714 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,080 hours, whatever it is. The problem is that, that they 715 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,000 don't take the time and effort to establish a valid baseline, 716 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,440 right? So they may go there a day 717 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,880 ahead, they may take some readings. 718 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,160 Here's where this is, this is the temperature, things like 719 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,360 that. But in virtually all the cases 720 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,720 that I looked at, and I've looked at many of them, the 721 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:09,960 biggest problem is the is that in order to know what's abnormal 722 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,400 or or extraordinary, you need to know what's ordinary or normal. 723 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,800 And in most cases, and again, I'm happy to be proven wrong, 724 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,400 someone wants to send me some stuff I'll look at. 725 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,160 But in most cases that I've seen, all the ghost hunters are 726 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,680 interested in doing is showing up doing overnight thing. 727 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,760 We're doing a lockdown. We're we have video cords 728 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,000 everywhere over this. And then like, and then it's 729 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,440 like, oh, look at this, you know, so the, the temperature 730 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,000 went from, you know, it dropped 10° from between 10:00 PM and 731 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,400 6:00 AM. I'm like, OK, how do you know it 732 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,920 doesn't do that Every how do you give me, give me something to 733 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,520 compare it to? But ghost hunters don't do that 734 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,360 for a couple reasons #1 it's a, it's a lot of time and effort. 735 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,880 It's a lot of time and effort to, to repeatedly go to a 736 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,840 location, do a valid sampling, establish a baseline, because 737 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,400 you have to keep going back. And, and you know, it's, that's 738 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,800 science is science is hard establishing. 739 00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:10,680 So this is this is the biggest problem is that over and over 740 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,720 again, ghost hunters don't take the time and the effort and the 741 00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,600 money to do a. Do a. 742 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,480 Valid sample. All they do is they go in, they 743 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,160 swoop in, they walk around, they listen to their Evps, they have 744 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,440 these recordings. And we don't have to compare 745 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,320 that to. So just telling me that you 746 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,480 heard something at 2250 in the morning doesn't tell us 747 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,520 anything. For all we know, if you had been 748 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,480 in the same, in the same, if you'd been also at 2:50 in the 749 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,960 morning a house 2 blocks away which is not said to be haunted, 750 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,240 you would have you would have heard and see the same thing. 751 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,920 You don't know unless you sample and I want. 752 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,600 To come back to some of that, talking about today's ghost 753 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,840 hunters in in a second, but so and I hear and you're, you're 754 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,440 making total sense. That's why in my example I was 755 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,760 talking about here is like a baseline report plus the 756 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,760 abnormalities to it. So you talk a lot about in your 757 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,760 books and in your writings and your essays talk a lot about 758 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,960 folklore and psychology. As you, as you mentioned 759 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,760 already, you know, and I read this book by Mark Eaton called 760 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,600 sensing spirits. He's a professor. 761 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,400 I, I, I forget where, but I, he, he talked to like 45 762 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,600 investigators. How, how much of the ghost 763 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,720 belief do you is in your mind? I think I might even know the 764 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,200 answer to it. But you know, is good is science 765 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,160 versus cultural shaping us like when and. 766 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,400 When you talk to the. People that you've talked to, 767 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,480 right? Like is it, you know, is it 768 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,840 really just like maybe that woman, you know, she thinks it's 769 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,320 a kid because that's her back or, you know, like whatever she 770 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,360 does, she might have been, you know, a kindergarten teacher for 771 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:49,400 all I know. I'm just making that up. 772 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,520 But like, what is the how much is that? 773 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,520 Do you have to weigh that in your investigation, the cultural 774 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,160 aspect of these people, what they're bringing to it versus 775 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,640 what they're taking from it? No, that then that's that's an 776 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:02,360 important. Question. 777 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,040 I'm glad you asked that there. There's 2 answers that the first 778 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,680 answer is it doesn't matter. It does not matter if ghosts are 779 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,440 real, if there is actual ghostly activity. 780 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,280 It doesn't matter what the cultural context is. 781 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,200 It doesn't matter what the beliefs are. 782 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,920 I mean, it's again, either the grandfather clock flew across 783 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,280 the room or it didn't. I mean, that's either either 784 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,440 either either you're in a poltergeist house and the 785 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,280 cupboards are are opening and slamming shut or they're not. 786 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,560 It doesn't matter what the belief is doesn't matter. 787 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,040 So, so this, this is the problem is that is it in case after case 788 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,640 after case, there is not good evidence for it. 789 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,480 If there was good evidence, then everybody like it doesn't matter 790 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,680 whether the the people that reported ghosts are atheists, 791 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,680 Hindu, Muslim, Christian, it's it's totally irrelevant because 792 00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,200 this isn't this isn't objectively verifiable external 793 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,440 phenomena that we can all see. Right. 794 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,560 Unfortunately, for reasons we can get into, that typically 795 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,080 doesn't happen. So then the question becomes OK, 796 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,840 well, because there is this stark lack of evidence is this 797 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,840 stark lack of obvious physical evidence. 798 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,040 And again, we give reasons for that later on. 799 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,000 The question becomes, OK, Well then, then, then we get back to 800 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,680 anecdotes. Then we get back to personal 801 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,800 experiences. And this is where, where the, 802 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,560 the, the, the psychology comes in, right? 803 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,880 Because then you start talking to people and one of the first 804 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:36,320 things I ask ghost experiencers, I say, I say, you know, first of 805 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,320 all, I understand you think it's a ghost. 806 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,480 It might be a ghost. I'm, I'm not saying it's not. 807 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,120 I understand why you think it is. 808 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,240 Tell me, tell me why. How did you come to that 809 00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:49,440 interpretation? How, why, why, why do you think 810 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,160 this is a ghost instead of someone playing a prank or a, a, 811 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,880 a psychic nearby who having, I don't know, depends on what the 812 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,120 phenomena is, right? So the OR, or, for example, 813 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,120 would be like, you know, some, some, some camera glitch, right? 814 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,160 Some surveillance camera. We've all seen this. 815 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,160 Some, some, you know, Oh, I was looking at my, the surveillance 816 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,800 camera in my garage last night and there's this sort of like 817 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,560 weird or flying through this empty garage. 818 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,200 No one was in there. I'm like, well, it looks like a 819 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,640 bug to me. I mean, I'll just, you know, IR 820 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,280 camera bugs. I mean, these things happen, 821 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,400 right? So so orbs or. 822 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:24,960 Or yeah, yeah or yeah, don't get. 823 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,880 But but again, this is this is this is part of the 824 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,560 investigation process is asking someone again, in all sincerity, 825 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,120 this is not a gotcha. Yeah. 826 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,800 Why do you think it's a ghost? Right. 827 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:36,400 Why? What? 828 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,760 Why are you assuming that? So there's a there's a couple 829 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,120 answers. Typically they give one is and 830 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,640 one is the TV. They're they are, they're fans 831 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,640 of taps, They're fans of the these, these, these YouTube 832 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,240 groups. They're, they're, they're fans 833 00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:54,160 of the ghost hunters. And so, and, and this is 834 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,720 important, right? Because the question becomes, if 835 00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:59,200 you have something weird going on in your house, you have 836 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,680 something weird going on in your backyard, your work, whatever it 837 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,640 is, why, why do you say must be a ghost? 838 00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:10,160 And that that's a fair question. And usually the answer is, hey, 839 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,880 I, I love the ghost hunters I saw on TV, Ghost Adventures, 840 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,240 Zach Baggins, all stuff. I saw this on TV. 841 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:19,600 And what they what they will tell you is that that they 842 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,960 experienced something or they saw something that resembles 843 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,280 something they saw on ATV show that was treated as a ghost. 844 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,760 This is important, right? Because there's they're they're 845 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,120 like, I'm not I'm not a scientist. 846 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,920 I don't have any degrees. Yeah, I'm a I'm an assistant 847 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,680 manager at Target. I'm I'm nobody, but you know 848 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,680 what I saw on TV? These these ghost hunters, 849 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,840 they're they're showing something that that's a lot like 850 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,000 what I experienced. That's why I think it's a ghost. 851 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,360 And you know who do you know? Do you know Steve? 852 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,560 Parsons is I've. Throw the name. 853 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,640 Yeah, Steve Parsons is a He's a ghost. 854 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,120 Hunter, he's Auk ghost investigator. 855 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:01,040 He's written a couple books. He he would say the exact same 856 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,760 thing you're saying right now. And I interviewed him and it was 857 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,480 funny because he and he, he talks about it, but he look, 858 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,200 he's a believer in ghosts and he does it and he says you how he 859 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,320 talks about the, the look on one hand, these ghost shows are 860 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:18,320 great because they kept the interest in this parascience 861 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,480 alive, right? It, it, it's what is some for 862 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,040 some something's happening. There is a lot of different 863 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,480 elements to parascience and this keeps it going. 864 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,760 On the other hand, for him, as someone who does this, when he 865 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,480 shows up, when people call him for investigation, he shows up 866 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,960 at the pad and pen because he wants to do an interview and get 867 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,520 the personal experience. And they're, they're wondering 868 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,800 where all the gear is, you know, because they've seen the TV and 869 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,800 his book Ghostology is all about like, listen, this is what this 870 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,600 gear is. And this is what it does. 871 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:49,600 And it has nothing to do with ghosts. 872 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,080 It has an EMF is not a ghost detector. 873 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,320 It is an electromagnetic field. Preach. 874 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,760 Preach, Gary, Preach. So no but he no, but he's. 875 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,960 But he's a believer, right? Like, so he just like explains 876 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:02,920 to you and and it talks about it, you know, in a way that 877 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,000 listen, if you haven't read it, I think you'd enjoy it. 878 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,280 But it's it's believer in a. Skeptic come under the exact 879 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,160 same the same damn thing, right. It's really, and it's really 880 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,040 like for me, it's. Being able to talk to people on 881 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,680 both sides is, is really interesting. 882 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,920 You know, to to how you to how you look at it and, and come to 883 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,600 that conclusion, like listen, if we we all want to see look, I 884 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,640 like I said, I've met skeptics already that are just like there 885 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,360 doesn't exist. So, you know, don't even try it 886 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,680 and just, you know, let's see it And and it's a joke, but I love 887 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,560 your perspective of yeah, you know, look, I'm, I'm skeptical, 888 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,680 but I am happy to have this discussion. 889 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,160 And I want to be proven wrong. There's a very big difference. 890 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,040 It's a nuance, but it's but it's different. 891 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,440 Well, yeah, I was. Just saying, I mean, part of it 892 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,840 is that is that to me, it's interesting either way. 893 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,240 And I mean, that's sincerely right. 894 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,960 So, so my position is that whether we're talking about 895 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,960 ghosts or, or chupacabras or psychic, whatever else is that 896 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,320 my position is they may exist. They might I, I don't know. 897 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,080 I, I sincerely don't know. I don't think so based on the 898 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,480 evidence so far. But anything is possible in 899 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,600 science. So let's let's talk. 900 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,600 Let's talk about the the cryptids for a second. 901 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,400 You know, and how does is there a difference between people who 902 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,560 believe in that wholeheartedly versus ghosts? 903 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,440 Like, you know, people who believe in Bigfoot versus go, 904 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,560 are they one and the same? Or is there a difference in 905 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:25,600 those types of people? Do they? 906 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,200 Well, there's some. Yeah, there's some overlap. 907 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,680 Part of it depends. I mean, part of when you ask 908 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,320 people, why do you believe in it, right. 909 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,160 So, and there's lots of research on this. 910 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,240 I'm fascinated by that because the question becomes, you know, 911 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,480 we have the this, this ambiguous phenomena, right? 912 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,240 So if Bigfoot was known to exist, they'd be in the zoo, 913 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:49,960 they'd be in the Natural History Museum. 914 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,680 We can go, we can all go see one, right? 915 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,200 Like, hey, kids, this is a Bigfoot. 916 00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:57,280 This was finally found in 2010. This is where they live. 917 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,640 This is their DNA. This is where they, this is all 918 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,160 sorts of things. Same thing with ghosts, right? 919 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,320 If, if, if we knew for a fact that ghosts existed, we could, 920 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,480 we could see them. They'd be in a in a Science 921 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,920 Museum. Hey, kids, this is a ghost. 922 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,600 We finally figured out what they were. 923 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:15,520 They're this there's a there's this form of energy, right? 924 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,480 So, so the, the point here is that if these things were self 925 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,120 evidently real, then we would all agree on it. 926 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,160 There'd be no, there'd be like, yeah, that the, the grandfather 927 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,360 clock flew across the room. There's no other explanation. 928 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,240 It's either a ghost or, or some telekinesis or something else, 929 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,800 right? So, so the question becomes, the 930 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,600 question then becomes whether it's Bigfoot or ghost, things 931 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:43,200 like that is why, what, how, what is the evidence that they 932 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,160 are interpreting? What is the ambiguous evidence 933 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,000 they're interpreting as evidence for Bigfoot or ghost, right? 934 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,120 So the question is where again, why? 935 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,680 Why do they attach that label on that experience? 936 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,120 And in some cases it's because they had personal experiences, 937 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,760 right? So you, we, we, we both talk to 938 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,440 people. I know what I saw, I was, I was 939 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,240 in this, I was going down this hallway, you know, and this with 940 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,640 this EVP and I, I, I heard something, I saw something. 941 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:09,560 And so a lot of times it's personal experience. 942 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,720 In a lot of cases it is informed as we were talking about a 943 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:17,320 second ago by pop culture, by, by horror films, by The 944 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,480 Conjuring films, by TV shows, by ghost hunters and so on. 945 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,720 And so it's, it's, it's important to try and parse that 946 00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:27,760 out because those influences as, as he was talking about Parsons 947 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,480 talking about before they're, they're very much there. 948 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,560 So I I think one difference is that I'm just just off the top 949 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,560 of my head is that Bigfoot believers and and believers in 950 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:43,360 encrypted tend to be men. It's that feels overwhelmingly 951 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,680 dominated by men. Usually we're going to, you 952 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,920 know, weekend warriors. I'm going to go out and find me 953 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,840 a Bigfoot. All right, Why? 954 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,480 Why do you think is? That is that. 955 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,880 Why do you think that is? I think there's Is there a? 956 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,600 Type. Is there a type that you've? 957 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,560 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's. It's it's. 958 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,520 I wouldn't read too much into it, but there's definitely a. 959 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,640 There's definitely a case in which those are the Dumber 960 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,920 species, yeah. No, there there's part of that. 961 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,120 Well, the there's. The other aspect to this is that 962 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,000 as you know, with ghost hunting, that blends very much into 963 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,120 psychics, because you mentioned before, right? 964 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,000 So often times, not all the time, often times in ghost 965 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,160 investigations, they will bring in a medium, they'll bring in a 966 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,400 psychic to communicate with a ghost to try and get feelings, 967 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,960 this and that. So that that adds and I talk 968 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,600 about this in my book, right, that that's a bad idea because 969 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,680 you are exponentially complicating matters because 970 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,600 psychics have not been proven to exist. 971 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,440 And we can talk about that at all you want, but the fact is 972 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:48,040 that you can't use one unproven technique to to prove a second 973 00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,000 unproven idea. You simply can't do it. 974 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,800 So, so this is part of the problem. 975 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,600 So anyway, getting back to the gender issue, is that because 976 00:48:56,720 --> 00:48:59,640 it's the same thing. So again, typically believers in 977 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,360 Bigfoot and Chupacabras and Mothman, those people who are 978 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,720 interested are men. Most of this in in most cases. 979 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,640 And it's different with psychics, for example, often 980 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,000 times psychics have women's intuition. 981 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,120 You have more women are more empathic, they're more 982 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,520 sensitive. Some of the world's top mediums 983 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,000 are mostly women and sometimes and gay men. 984 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,360 Tyler Henry and others as well. James Dan Prague. 985 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,680 So again, that's not good or bad. 986 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,040 It's just that's that's just the the the the stats that we know. 987 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:29,720 Yeah, right. The. 988 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,520 Stats that we currently know for sure anyway. 989 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,640 No, no, sorry. That's like I'm just I'm. 990 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,040 Just having fun talking to you. No, no, I love it so. 991 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,720 Has there ever been? Well, you know, just before we 992 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:44,800 go so you know where my head is a little bit on this stuff. 993 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,520 It's in what? What I've discovered, it's look, 994 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,880 I don't know what spirits are. I don't know what's happening 995 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,160 when it happens. I do. 996 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,080 There's been a couple people that have said a couple things 997 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,960 to me that have stuck with me where I to help me keep an open 998 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,360 mind. One guy was Dan Sturgis, an 999 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,280 investigator who pointed out like we didn't even know how 1000 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,200 lightning worked until we had the high speed camera, right. 1001 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,280 It might just be something we haven't figured out yet. 1002 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,000 And that was recent. That wasn't that's fairly recent 1003 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,720 science, you know, in tech. That's one thing, you know, in 1004 00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:16,920 terms of, well, I, I, I would argue, I would argue. 1005 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,160 That we, we did have a pretty good idea how I I mean. 1006 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,760 So here's the thing about that analogy. 1007 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,160 And I've heard that analogy before. 1008 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,200 People have known about lightning for for centuries. 1009 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,480 You know, of course I've been frank, but no, but, but, but 1010 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,680 this is the important part of this is like we is it in 1011 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,040 science? We didn't know the details about 1012 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,400 lightning. We so scientists may have only 1013 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,240 and that that's that's how science works. 1014 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,360 The more you learn, the more studies you you get the details. 1015 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,320 But but there's an important distinction here is that is that 1016 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,680 no one doubted the lightning existed, whereas people do 1017 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,000 doubt. I mean, there's clear evidence 1018 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:52,960 of lightning. We've all see it. 1019 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,480 No, no. I, I, I, I would, I'm. 1020 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,120 Like ghost, I'm like Bigfoot. But I would, I would listen. 1021 00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:58,080 I would tack. On to that. 1022 00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:58,960 What you were just talking about. 1023 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,520 We knew how lightning works, but before they figured out what it 1024 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,840 was, they thought it was from the gods. 1025 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:04,840 I mean, you know what I'm saying? 1026 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,120 Like there was a progression how far back you got. 1027 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:08,840 Yeah, but. No, but I'm saying there was a. 1028 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,160 Yes, but there was a progression, as slow as it may 1029 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,520 be, to realizing that it is not a supernatural thing and this is 1030 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:17,480 what it was. So. 1031 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,680 So that's all. That's all my point with germ 1032 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,080 theory with the. Plague. 1033 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,720 Yes, absolutely. So that that that's just for me 1034 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:31,960 and I do buy into something about, you know, the we don't 1035 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:33,640 understand what consciousness is. 1036 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,880 We don't really know how the brain works. 1037 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,640 We know there's electrical synapses in our brain, but we 1038 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,080 don't know consciousness and what it is. 1039 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:46,120 And I do buy into this idea of what you just said to, to tack 1040 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:47,800 on to what you just said, why it made me think of it like 1041 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,880 intuition, right? We all get, and I, and I feel 1042 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,960 that there is, you know, look, if you're in a, we use this 1043 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,400 example all the time when you're in a bar and somebody walks in 1044 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,160 and can give you a bad vibe, like that's something that 1045 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,560 dude's not cool. Like there's something wrong. 1046 00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,960 Like we all have that, you know, flight or fight, there's a 1047 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,880 reason for it. There is a ingrained intuition. 1048 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,240 And do I feel that maybe some people are more intuitive than 1049 00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:14,360 others? Absolutely. 1050 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,200 Just like I think some people are more physiologically better. 1051 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,280 It's then become professional athletes than others. 1052 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,720 I compare these things. I think there is something to 1053 00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:23,880 that. I don't know what that is. 1054 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,560 That's my journey with this talking to different people, 1055 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,200 right? And I don't know how to measure 1056 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:29,160 it. I don't know how to prove it. 1057 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,680 So that's that's kind of the fun of this and and talking about 1058 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,280 it. Well, but again, I mean, I would 1059 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,320 say, I mean. You know, I with consciousness, 1060 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,840 I mean, that's, you know, I again, I've heard that a lot 1061 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,760 like people, you know, well, psychics are probably psychics 1062 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,000 probably just because we don't, we don't know everything about 1063 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,280 how the brain works. OK, But I mean, we can't prove 1064 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:48,280 it. We Yeah, we can't prove it 1065 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:49,560 negatively or positive. No, but. 1066 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,280 But it's it's it's, it's called an argument from ignorance. 1067 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,840 It's it's, it's, it's, it's saying we we don't know X there. 1068 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,720 That's not a logical You can't say we don't know all about X. 1069 00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:03,240 Therefore psychics are real. We don't know. 1070 00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:05,160 I'm not saying that. No, no, I understand. 1071 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,160 I'm just saying it's a slippery slope there, no? 1072 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,800 No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. 1073 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:10,800 And I. Agree with that completely. 1074 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,160 We don't know. I know the experiences I've had 1075 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,240 with certain psychics more than others now that I've been doing 1076 00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:19,680 this has been I, you know, for the life of me can't figure out 1077 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,480 certain things. I've had people take a look at, 1078 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,280 listen to the recordings of me with a psychic to see like where 1079 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,200 did, are they playing me? How did they do it 'cause I 1080 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,440 didn't notice and I haven't, you know, I haven't figured it out. 1081 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:33,600 But that's neither here nor there. 1082 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,360 I just sort of, but I know of course, of course there are 1083 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:39,880 charlatans. There's the cold reading 1084 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,320 charlatan that's out there versus somebody else who does 1085 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,000 it. And but again, that's just, it's 1086 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,160 like, you're right, it is not a proof of psychic mediumship. 1087 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:54,240 But for me that keeps my mind open to, OK, how can we get to 1088 00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:58,440 to a place of, of that? Has there ever been a mystery 1089 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,920 you've investigated or a legend outside of like the caves you 1090 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,360 talked about earlier? You know, especially with, like, 1091 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,800 cryptids or monsters that, you know, that that surprised you 1092 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,560 once you dug into it. I don't mean surprise you in a 1093 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:11,920 way of like, wow, this could be a monster. 1094 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,120 I mean, or just surprise you. Like, holy Christ. 1095 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,520 It was this little kid in this village walking around with 1096 00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:17,800 footprint. You had bigger feet than 1097 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:18,840 everybody else. Yeah. 1098 00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:20,960 That's sort of fun. Yeah. 1099 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,120 There's been a couple. I mean it's. 1100 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,640 It's a case of where you know I've done this long time. 1101 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,360 I've been doing this for 20 years or so. 1102 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,680 And of course, all, all sorts of books, investigations and my 1103 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,680 podcasts and like that. So the, you know, I, I'm drawing 1104 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,720 upon a pretty broad stuff. So I would say one of my 1105 00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:42,120 favorites would be I, I did a book called Lake Monster 1106 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,440 Mysteries. I wrote it with the late Joe 1107 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,000 Nickel and came out maybe 10-15 years ago. 1108 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,840 And so we, we, we looked at lake monsters around the world, 1109 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:56,000 including, of course, Loch Ness and, and, and yeah, sturgeons 1110 00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,560 are monsters. That was. 1111 00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,920 A monster. They are absolutely right if 1112 00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:02,400 you've never seen a sturgeon up. Close if you're not a fisherman 1113 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:03,520 yet. So here's the thing. 1114 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:08,120 So, so I was one of, so one of my chapters in that book is 1115 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,760 about a, a monster called Lake Cresi in Lake Crescent, 1116 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,880 Newfoundland, in a town called Robert's Arm. 1117 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,320 And if you go there, it's a beautiful little town. 1118 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,840 It's very picturesque. Population is like 5, depending 1119 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,200 on whether Joe's in town or not, but it's a cute little town and 1120 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,320 it's, it's adorable. And, and as you go into it, 1121 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,000 there's a, there's a, there's a, a little sculpture, not a big 1122 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,920 sculpture saying you welcome to Robert's arm. 1123 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,480 Anyway, I was there investigating the, the local 1124 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,960 lake monster. And before I went there, I, I 1125 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,520 did my due diligence. I was reading reports and 1126 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,880 saying, OK, what are people describing and who's your 1127 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,440 witnesses and so on. And so I went there and I, I, I, 1128 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,400 again, there's five people in town. 1129 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:50,960 So I stayed at the hotel and I said hi. 1130 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,000 And I said, so I want, I want to, can you tell me about, you 1131 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,520 know, Cressy, the local monster? I feel like, Oh yeah, they're 1132 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,320 happy to talk. And I said, well, I've noticed. 1133 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:01,960 I'm just talking to the local guy, you know, he's been there 1134 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:03,400 forever. You know, he grew up there. 1135 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,880 He's, you know, he hasn't wandered more than 10 feet from 1136 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,560 where he was born. And I said, I said, I've noticed 1137 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,000 that unlike a lot of other lake monsters I've researched, this 1138 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,320 one. It, it's the, the, the, the 1139 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,680 description is very consistent. Typically the sort of like 1140 00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,200 smooth shiny surface. There's no, there's a couple 1141 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,480 distinctive house, but there's no, there's no like Ridge or 1142 00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,880 anything like that and nothing, nothing distinctive about the 1143 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,840 head. So I'll be honest with you. 1144 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,000 This sounds like eel. You know, I said, are there, are 1145 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,440 there any eel in the lake? He's like, Oh yeah, there's huge 1146 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:39,960 eel. They're like there's, there's as 1147 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:45,520 big as your thigh. I'm like, do you think I, I'm 1148 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,240 just spitballing here. Do you think your local lake 1149 00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:50,480 monster might be an eel? He's like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 1150 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,840 it could be. It's like, all right, that's 1151 00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,320 fun. So they're having some fun and 1152 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,640 it's just sort of. Part of the legend I I see that 1153 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,640 and it you know listen, you know look for me it's so this is 1154 00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,560 going to be weird I am probably more apt to believe in ghosts 1155 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,480 than I am to believe in Bigfoot interesting A lot of people 1156 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,680 would say the opposite why is that I I. 1157 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,640 I just feel like like again. I've, I don't and I'm using the 1158 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,520 in my definition of ghost. As you said, there's multiple 1159 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:21,480 definitions. I tend to I tend to think if it 1160 00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:30,040 is anything, it is somehow consciousness possibly trap like 1161 00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,200 stuck to energy of some kind. There's something, it's just, it 1162 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,160 sounds strange, but like the theory is my nephew has this 1163 00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,960 theory, which, you know, again, it's, you would call it like any 1164 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,120 of your theory because you can't prove it. 1165 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,200 But it's this idea that, you know, listen, energy can't be 1166 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,680 created or destroyed. What happens to this energy in 1167 00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,360 our body when we pass? It has to go somewhere and we 1168 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:50,520 don't know what consciousness is. 1169 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,720 So is it memory? Is there a transfer of that to 1170 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,520 something? I don't know if it'll ever be 1171 00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,040 proven or how it is, but I'm more apt to believe that we are 1172 00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,520 in touch with something on that level than a Bigfoot that we 1173 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,160 can't find. But with that said, I can 1174 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,520 certainly believe that there might be something in the ocean 1175 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,360 depths that we haven't found yet or seen now. 1176 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,240 Is it a monster? I think a great white shark is a 1177 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,920 fucking monster, right? Like I think, I think Australia 1178 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,160 is Monster Island. So it's like, you know, they got 1179 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,280 spiders that will. They got things. 1180 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:26,680 Everything there wants to kill you. 1181 00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,400 So it's like, you know. I am certainly apartment to 1182 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:33,360 believe that there is something in the ocean that we we don't 1183 00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:35,880 know what it is. Well, we'll just you know, 1184 00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,720 eventually we might discover it because it's just insane. 1185 00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,720 But, you know, it's, it's fun, you know, So listen first. 1186 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,320 Of all, Benjamin, thank. You so much for taking the time 1187 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,800 I got a couple more questions for you This is fun talking to 1188 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,480 you I. Always enjoy, you know, I get 1189 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:56,320 interviewed by people and, and honestly, most of the time they, 1190 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,600 they, they don't know anything about the topic. 1191 00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,360 So it's it's really refreshing to actually talk to somebody 1192 00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:06,000 and, and have a more than super visual like, you know, my, my, 1193 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,080 my work is me fooling you is work then, because. 1194 00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,200 I'm learning, I'm still learning about the topic, but I try to 1195 00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,440 read everything and I certainly your books are on my list to 1196 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,600 read for as we roll into as I roll into 2026. 1197 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,320 I'm I've I've just been reading. So yeah, look like right now I'm 1198 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:21,960 reading this is this is what I'm on right now. 1199 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,400 It's a classic, you know, so. Yeah, it's a class. 1200 00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,240 So I'm trying to get my head around it all. 1201 00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,080 Let me ask you this as. We wrap this up here, So. 1202 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,040 What do you think the paranormal community could learn from 1203 00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,560 skeptics? And then what do you think 1204 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,720 skeptics can learn from the paranormal community? 1205 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:42,960 Sure. No, that, that's a great 1206 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,400 question. I've always been. 1207 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:51,120 Advocate for forever of more dialogue between between 1208 00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:52,640 so-called skeptics and believers. 1209 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,240 I've always found conversations like this to be interesting, 1210 00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,440 useful. It you know, there's, there's a 1211 00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,120 quote that says, you know, if you don't understand your 1212 01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,040 opponent's position, you don't understand your own. 1213 01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,280 And I and that that's true. You need to you need to 1214 01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,440 understand what what does the other. 1215 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:11,960 I mean, this is not an antagonistic hostile. 1216 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:13,920 It's like, hey, we're all interested in these things, 1217 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,720 right Bigfoot, ghosts, weird shit like this is inherently 1218 01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:19,480 interesting. We're we're spending time on 1219 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:20,760 this. We're we're talking about where 1220 01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:22,240 people are listening to us talk about this. 1221 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,760 So, so I think on, on one level, we're on the same page because 1222 01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:29,360 I'm sincere in my search for ghosts. 1223 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,640 I'm, I'm not, I sincerely want to find, I want to find Bigfoot. 1224 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,720 I want to find real psychics, right. 1225 01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:39,920 So the question then becomes how can, how can, how can we work 1226 01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,120 together to sort of refine these sorts of things? 1227 01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,240 So to answer your question, I would say that the biggest thing 1228 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,200 that I think that the ghost hunting community in the 1229 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,920 paranormal community in general could, could learn from from 1230 01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,640 skeptics is to apply is to apply a more science based 1231 01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,440 perspective. I used to say, OK, I'm again, I 1232 01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:59,600 was talking about before about the baselines, right? 1233 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,680 So instead of just, hey, I'm a ghost hunter, I'm going to go in 1234 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,360 someplace, I'm going to walk around for a couple hours with, 1235 01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,520 with the, with the, with the recorders and stuff and then go 1236 01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:12,600 away and survey the footage. Understand that, understand 1237 01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:16,000 that, that in order to do this scientifically, you need to, 1238 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,240 it's a lot more work. You need to establish a 1239 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,440 baseline. You need to, you need to, you 1240 01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,440 verify facts, you need to, you need to, you know, if you're 1241 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,920 going to do, if you're going to do psychics and mediums, test 1242 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,880 them beforehand, right? Have them come in blind. 1243 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:34,720 So say, make, bring them to a location and say, OK, don't give 1244 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,360 me any, any clues. Just say, OK, is there a ghost 1245 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:39,440 here? Yes or no? 1246 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,720 And if so, what is the ghost? Just bring them in separately so 1247 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:43,960 they're they're not talking to each other. 1248 01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:47,000 Bring into an unknown location. And I can tell you what will 1249 01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,480 happen. I can I can tell you what will 1250 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,440 happen because I've done this is the psychics with her. 1251 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:53,960 Come up with nothing or they'll give you completely different 1252 01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:55,480 stories. Oh, yeah. 1253 01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,040 There's a little girl named Maria, and she died here about 1254 01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,280 20 years ago in a fire. And then someone else will say 1255 01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:05,000 you, you, you don't bring in the same room, you bring in a 1256 01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:06,960 different cycle. You're like, yeah, there's an 1257 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,400 old man, there's only one ghost. And they'll give you totally 1258 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,400 different, different information. 1259 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,480 Anyway, So Long story short, I would say that the main thing 1260 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,480 that that that I would hope that ghost Hunter's investigators 1261 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,280 could bring, could, could learn from skeptics as again, more, 1262 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,960 more understanding the methodology research design, 1263 01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,160 right, Research design. How do you conduct an 1264 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:30,880 experiment? How do you do research? 1265 01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:32,640 And I'm not, I'm not being sarcastic. 1266 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,520 The the problem is that most people the the average 1267 01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,640 layperson, and again, I'm not, I'm not being mean. 1268 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,040 This is skeptics and believers. They don't know how to 1269 01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,000 investigate. That's not what they do. 1270 01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,440 That it's not their investigation is that it's, it's 1271 01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:49,960 a skill set. There's, there's a reason why 1272 01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,880 FBI investigators and police investigators are trained. 1273 01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:54,720 They don't just pull them off the street. 1274 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,840 They don't just, they don't just put a, a, a magnetometer in 1275 01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,800 their hand and go tell them to look for ghosts. 1276 01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,280 They train them in, in methodologies. 1277 01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,760 So that would be my thing is, is recognizing and appreciating 1278 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,280 that there are actual scientific methodology that can be applied 1279 01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:11,880 to ghost hunting. And I've, I've written about 1280 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,480 that in my book and, and, and do that. 1281 01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,360 And so, and when, when skeptics are offering a different 1282 01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:21,320 perspective, a respectful perspective, engage with them, 1283 01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,840 say, hey, maybe you're right. How can we, how can we up our 1284 01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:29,520 game so that people are more responsive and believing in, in, 1285 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:31,200 in, in the evidence we're finding? 1286 01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:33,800 And conversely, I would think that the one of the things that 1287 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,160 skeptics can learn from believers and the ghosting and 1288 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:43,320 parallel communities is to is to recognize that that there's not 1289 01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,520 one blanket, It's not homogeneous group. 1290 01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,440 There are people who people come from all sorts of different 1291 01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,640 perspectives. Some people, you know, the 1292 01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,800 reason they believe in ghosts is because their grandmother passed 1293 01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,640 away and they're very close to them. 1294 01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:04,560 And, you know, and skeptics can learn to be more diplomatic and 1295 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,720 instead of having the sort of abrasive, dismissive wet 1296 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:13,320 blanket, you know, perspective saying, OK, we'll hold on here. 1297 01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,680 Often times believers, there's a reason they believe these 1298 01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,320 things. They're not they're not lying to 1299 01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:20,160 you. They're not hoaxing. 1300 01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:21,480 They're not trying to pull pranks. 1301 01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,920 Some of them are clickbait. I mean, I have I got suspicions 1302 01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,920 about how sincere Zach Baggins is, for example. 1303 01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:31,640 I'm going to get into that. But most people, they, you know, 1304 01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,320 they're sincere, right? And so I would say one thing 1305 01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,560 that the skeptics could learn is, is to give more respect to 1306 01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,760 eyewitnesses, to believers and so on. 1307 01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:42,040 It's great. Yeah. 1308 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:43,160 Listen, I don't know. You know I. 1309 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,440 Had one of the producers of Ghost Adventures is a good 1310 01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:48,840 friend of mine. He was on the show and you know, 1311 01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:53,160 from and he's a very he's an award-winning documentarian. 1312 01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,680 So he got into the paranormal from the production side of it, 1313 01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:01,640 from a very a very straight place, you know, from coming at 1314 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,520 to being a, you know, he's done documentaries about let you 1315 01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:08,680 know, Tupac and Biggie to, you know, the sisters of Ukraine, 1316 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:12,160 which is on Amazon right now. This guy is very straightforward 1317 01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,160 and he's like, listen, I'm, I'm filming this stuff, I'm just 1318 01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:17,120 capturing it. There's no, we're not faking and 1319 01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:21,400 there is a constraint to television production, as I know 1320 01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,040 very well. That's that's my background. 1321 01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:26,080 So and I understand that and speaking to like, you know, so I 1322 01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,440 can't speak to I I don't know Zach. 1323 01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,440 I have, I'd love to get Zach on to talk to him about it, but 1324 01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,800 it's like, you know, I can't speak to his validity or not or 1325 01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,800 I, I believe he's a believer. And I find that when you say 1326 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,080 that really interesting because I had James underdown, I did an 1327 01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:40,760 interview with him that we're going to be doing it. 1328 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,920 And you know him and he's, and, and he said to us, you know, for 1329 01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,440 his big $500,000 cash prize, the amount of people that come in 1330 01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,480 are trying to pull the wool over his eyes and fake it are is 0. 1331 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:54,080 It's like they're believers. And so that's an interesting, 1332 01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,000 you know, the way it's wild to me, right? 1333 01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:04,040 Like this is, this is where it's coming from for, you know. 1334 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,040 What do you? Think, then, is if you could 1335 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:12,080 leave our listeners here with one practical tool for thinking 1336 01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:17,200 more clearly about mysteries, you know what what would you 1337 01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:21,040 tell them that's a good I mean there's. 1338 01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:27,040 There's several, I would say probably the, if I was going to 1339 01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,760 give one piece of advice, I mean, I, I could, I give you a 1340 01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:32,680 dozen, but I, it would be 1. I touched on earlier, which is 1341 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:38,080 to recognize that when you're investigating mysteries that 1342 01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,720 these, these words that are thrown around as if everybody 1343 01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,080 agrees what they are ghosts news for you. 1344 01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:46,720 People don't agree on what ghosts are. 1345 01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:48,880 We don't know what ghosts are. We literally don't know what 1346 01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:50,960 ghosts are. We have, we have a cultural 1347 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,440 script about what ghosts are. There's different, there's 1348 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,640 different dictionary definitions, bigfoots and so on 1349 01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:00,360 thing like that. So, so I would say that the one 1350 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:04,400 piece of advice would be to recognize that when someone uses 1351 01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,360 the word ghost, when someone uses the word Bigfoot, they're, 1352 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,240 they're describing it's a label for an experience. 1353 01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,960 They, that they're, it's, it's a convenient socially recognized 1354 01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,680 label. And that's an important 1355 01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:21,600 distinction because you can't investigate a label, but you can 1356 01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,880 investigate an experience. So instead of focus, instead of 1357 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,440 saying, well, how do we prove the ghosts exist? 1358 01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:32,800 Back up whole second investigate each case specifically. 1359 01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:38,040 So, so you know, because like, you know, I've, I have, I have 1360 01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,160 proven that specific ghosts don't exist. 1361 01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:44,200 In other words, there are specific cases, not all ghosts. 1362 01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:47,480 There are specific cases. And I can list a dozen off the 1363 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,360 top of my head where something was believed to be a ghost that 1364 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,120 was later proven pretty much by everybody that was not a ghost. 1365 01:07:55,440 --> 01:08:01,760 So I debunked, I disproved that one, that one situation, that 1366 01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,000 one situation, right? I, I have never claimed that 1367 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,400 that disproves all ghosts. You have to case on a case by 1368 01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:09,720 case basis. And you have to recognize that 1369 01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,000 that people are describing to you their experiences. 1370 01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,880 And there may be more than one explanation for that experience. 1371 01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:17,840 So instead of just leaping to, oh, it's a ghost. 1372 01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:22,040 What does that mean? Even if you're right, Here's the 1373 01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:26,359 thing, even if you were right, if someone says, I saw there's a 1374 01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:30,120 ghost in my house, and even if you're right, that gets us 1375 01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,160 nowhere because we don't know what that, that doesn't they 1376 01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:35,600 just, it just kicks the can down the down the road. 1377 01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:39,880 Because then the question is what, what do you mean by ghost? 1378 01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:41,800 What, what, what is a ghost? Right. 1379 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,439 And so again, is it, is it, is it stone tape theory? 1380 01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:47,600 Is it the, you know, spirits of those who and so on. 1381 01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:53,279 So, so I, I would say, you know, question your assumptions, take 1382 01:08:53,279 --> 01:08:58,000 a step back instead of instead of lurching into trying to prove 1383 01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,000 that this place is full of ghosts, take a step back and 1384 01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:02,920 look at what people are actually claiming. 1385 01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,000 Take a step back and look at people what actually 1386 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,920 experiencing. And once you do that, you, you 1387 01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,840 recognize there's other explanations that aren't ghosts. 1388 01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,439 Ben, tell the tell the good. People where to find you and 1389 01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,439 follow you online. Yeah, I'm around and about. 1390 01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,920 I have a podcast called. Squaring the Strange. 1391 01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,319 It's available on all the major platforms. 1392 01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:28,479 I've written a couple books on ghost, including Investigating 1393 01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,840 Ghosts and Scientific Parental Investigation. 1394 01:09:31,359 --> 01:09:35,080 I have another book coming out next year on mysteries in New 1395 01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,319 Mexico, my home state. So it'll be there's even a 1396 01:09:38,319 --> 01:09:40,880 couple ghost investigations in that case. 1397 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,840 So I'm round about, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter every 1398 01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:45,840 now and then. Are you? 1399 01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,920 What's your handle at? BT Radford at. 1400 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:52,200 BT Radford. Wonderful. 1401 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:54,960 Benjamin, thank you so much for being on Splinter Spirits. 1402 01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:56,640 I really this is a wonderful conversation. 1403 01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:58,840 Thanks for having me on. This has been super fun. 1404 01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:00,920 I'll be happy. To come on some another time and 1405 01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:05,360 and talk more about let's do it. Well, that's it for another 1406 01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,000 episode of Splintered Spirits Be. 1407 01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,640 Sure to like, share, and subscribe to our YouTube 1408 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,880 channel, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1409 01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,280 Until next time, stay curious.