1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,560 Do you like telling children that Santa doesn't exist? 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,200 Welcome to Splintered Spirits. I'm your host, Gary, along with 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,120 my nephew John Santa from Santa Paranormal, where we try to find 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,440 the answer to the question, what are spirits? 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,480 Today we are bringing our questions to the ultimate test 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,240 by welcoming James Underdown as a guest who specializes in 7 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:26,240 applying scientific rigor to extraordinary claims. 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,480 James is the Executive Director of the Center for Inquiry West 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,560 in Los Angeles and the founder of the Independent 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,240 Investigations Group, an organization famous for offering 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,880 a $500,000 prize to anyone who can prove paranormal ability 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,800 under test conditions. As the host of Point of Inquiry 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,640 podcast and the creator of the Skepta Lab web series, James has 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,080 spent years debunking wacky claims and investigating the 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,080 unexplained. And, well, shit, John and I are 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,800 loaded with those. Let's dive into the 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:04,000 conversation. Hey James, welcome to Splintered 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,720 Spirits. Yeah, great. 19 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,040 Great to be here. Thanks for having me on. 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,840 So, you know, I wanted, I don't know how much you know about us. 21 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:19,000 You know, this whole thing started with me trying to figure 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,600 out what the hell my nephew John here is doing for a living. 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,000 You know, and I was very skeptical. 24 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,240 John and I were both raised Catholic in New York. 25 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,640 We're both atheists. Yet he has got a million 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,080 followers as a live, as a very successful live streamer on 27 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,600 social media. He's not a ghost hunter. 28 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,240 He's a documentary, and he just talks to spirits through various 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,240 apps. And I've got into this thing 30 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,760 trying as a producer out here, trying to figure out a, a format 31 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,240 around this in a podcast kind of way, but also for my own, for 32 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,400 myself, just really find it interesting talking to different 33 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,240 people about what they think spirits are and how it comes 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:01,680 about. And that's when I sort of 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:08,240 discovered the, the CFI, you know, and what you do and I'm 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,600 fascinated by it. So maybe really quickly, can you 37 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,080 tell me what tell me and the audience here like what CFI is 38 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,280 and how you came about being a being a part of it? 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,560 Yeah. So in general terms, CFI is a 40 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,080 non profit educational organization. 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,760 Our two main areas of focus are secular, the philosophy of 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,680 secular humanism, separation of church and state, that sort of 43 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,440 thing, rights of non believers. But the organization actually 44 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,720 started from what we call the skeptical side. 45 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:50,520 We started publishing Skeptical Enquirer magazine in 1976 and 46 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,040 that end of the organization just deals with all these wacky 47 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:59,600 claims, paranormal claims, everything from UFOs to the 48 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,760 Bermuda Triangle to spoon bending, you name it, we've 49 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,800 investigated it. So we have a, we have a, a 50 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,200 branch out here in, in Los Angeles called CFI West. 51 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,600 And at this branch I run a group called the CFI Investigations 52 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,960 Group. And we do investigations about 53 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:25,600 paranormal claims that we're the world's largest testers of 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,840 people who claim to have paranormal ability. 55 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,400 We have a half million dollar prize for anyone who thinks that 56 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,160 they can douse or look into the future or move. 57 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,480 Forward. So that's so that's you, James. 58 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,440 That's you and your organization, because I've heard 59 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,480 of this. Yeah. 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,960 I, I mean, that's part of the organization. 61 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:53,680 But yeah, that the CFIIDII did start the investigation's end of 62 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,720 it. Nice, cool. 63 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,800 Now James, how did you get what attracted you personally? 64 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,920 I mean, you were a com, you're a stand up comic and what it So 65 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:08,400 what attracted you personally to go from comedy to being which I, 66 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,760 you know, obviously very creative endeavour to being a 67 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:18,079 skeptic professionally. Yeah, well, I mean, I always, I 68 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:22,520 left the Catholic Church when I was like 10 or 11 years old, and 69 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,760 I always had an interest in religion and what people 70 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,280 believe. And I think, you know, when I 71 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:34,640 was a teen, I had some interest in UFOs and I read Eric von 72 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:40,120 Doniken's Chariots of the Gods and read some stuff about ESPN 73 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,920 and all all sort of interested me. 74 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:48,840 And then I, I found out that Skeptical Inquirer existed and 75 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,720 started learning the science side of all these beliefs. 76 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,800 And I was like, you dumb ass, you had it all wrong. 77 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,880 And, and then I started getting interested in, well, why do 78 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,080 people believe in these things and what's really going on 79 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,320 there? So I kind of started working 80 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,720 with the organization and just got deeper and deeper into it. 81 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,200 Do you like telling children that Santa doesn't exist? 82 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:20,360 I actually did do that. I I've ruined Christmas for my 83 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,200 sister and a lot of other people. 84 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:29,400 And yeah, I mean, listen, get on the right track at a young age, 85 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,080 all right? No, look, I appreciate, look, I 86 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,120 appreciate skepticism. I, I like to, you know, I, I 87 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,320 understand the necessity of it. What for me and for this, you 88 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,800 know, for what we do here and, and I got a lot of more 89 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,680 questions for you, but just so you sort of understand where 90 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,160 we're coming from. It's like for I always find 91 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,360 debunking unfun, right? It's just not the fun. 92 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,720 Like, it's easy to me to say no. And I and you know, when I look 93 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,680 at science as a whole, right, like more advancements have come 94 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,920 from, you know, the search to prove something than to disprove 95 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,560 something. And while yes, we can point to a 96 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,800 few things where disproving has worked out great, right, like 97 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,560 pasteurization. He Louis Pasteur was out to 98 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,240 disprove a theory or, you know, cars get safer by disproving how 99 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,000 safe they are. You know, there's certain 100 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,960 advances, but for the most part trying to prove something, even 101 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,720 in failure to prove something leads to something has has led 102 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,240 to greatness and moving forward. So it's, you know. 103 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,480 Yeah, but let's, I mean, let's be clear. 104 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,840 We're, we're, we don't, we're not out to debunk things. 105 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:45,240 We're out to find out what the most likely explanation for 106 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,280 something is. So, and you know, in our case, 107 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:52,800 that often means it's, it's this instead of that. 108 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:58,200 But I mean, it's, it's really, it's almost impossible to 109 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,920 disprove something depending on what it is. 110 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,680 Are you do you believe in do you believe there's something out 111 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,920 there like do you believe in ghosts or, or that or, or is it 112 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,560 no too far gone for? You no, no, it's it's I, I've so 113 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,120 I've been doing this for like 26 years now. 114 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:23,960 The investigations and and when you have a logical science based 115 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,800 explanation for virtually every claim we've ever encountered 116 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,080 either. I mean, some things we just walk 117 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,000 away and say, I don't there's no way to know what happened. 118 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,080 But when we really look into things, there's almost always a 119 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,520 science based explanation that is consistent with the laws of 120 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:48,120 physics and with modern science. So instead of making that leap 121 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:54,840 and saying it's a ghost or it's magic or whatever, we'll go with 122 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,520 the more logical explanations. Which, you know, which people 123 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,120 have a hard time doing, You know, you know what James is 124 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,160 talking about. People, especially in my field, 125 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,440 have a horrible time doing that. And I can give a prime example 126 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,240 of this. A name will come through on the 127 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:16,000 spirit box. Let's say Rachel, you know, half 128 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,400 of my chat is turning around saying, oh, that's my grandma. 129 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,240 Oh, that's my best friend. And it's like, what? 130 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,920 What are you talking about? It makes no sense. 131 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,240 It's this association that people have which is a big. 132 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,520 Pitfall. Well, and let's not forget too 133 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,080 that and this I include myself in this, we want most people 134 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,280 love to think that there's an afterlife, that we're going to 135 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,400 go somewhere and we get to see our dead relatives and friends 136 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,760 and things like that. We want to believe this stuff. 137 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:53,400 So that pulls most people who don't have the skeptical mindset 138 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,320 well into that direction at the very beginning. 139 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:03,480 And it's it is funny too that you say that because my findings 140 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,400 prove the opposite of that, that the afterlife as we know it 141 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,320 isn't this fluffy heaven clouds. We get to see grandma again, 142 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,320 afterlife and and people don't like to hear that. 143 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,520 People don't like to hear that at all. 144 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,560 Yeah. Well, that may be that that may 145 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:26,360 be the case. But I, I guess what I'm talking 146 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,960 about is that, you know, human beings understand that they're 147 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,400 going to die someday. And most people don't like that 148 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,320 idea. So any continuation, any way to 149 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,640 keep going has a sort of natural attraction to it. 150 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,920 Well, I have to. I have to say this real quick. 151 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,720 Once I'm unable to wipe my ass, I want to be out so. 152 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,440 Yeah. Because nobody wants to do that 153 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,640 for you, let me tell you. Why? 154 00:09:56,680 --> 00:09:58,480 I don't want anybody doing that for. 155 00:09:58,480 --> 00:09:59,720 Me. Nobody wants to do that. 156 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,320 Don't be. Out Gary, I'm sorry to keep 157 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:08,200 cutting you off it's. All right, James, what was what 158 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:13,960 do you find in all of your, you know, work has been the most 159 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,880 common natural explanation for what people perceive as energy 160 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,160 or a presence? I would say two things, 161 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:30,560 something going on with the state of their brain and and I 162 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:32,800 don't mean that as an insult. Sounds like it. 163 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:34,960 No, it's great. I love it. 164 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:35,760 No, no. Good going? 165 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:36,440 Sure. No so. 166 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:44,760 So that could be anything from some Gray area between, you 167 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,240 know, actually for the statement between. 168 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,000 Mental illness and being an idiot. 169 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,120 And stress. There's all sorts of things. 170 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:59,240 Exactly, stress, lack of sleep, drugs and and schizophrenia. 171 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,080 And I mean people see things all the time that aren't there. 172 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,080 So those are just sort of malfunctions of the brain or 173 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,680 states in some extreme that causes you to have this. 174 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,000 And then I always ask someone, you know, when did this thing 175 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,720 happen? And nine times out of 10, it's 176 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,560 when they're asleep. I mean, I know you guys go out 177 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,200 the the ghost hunter people go out and, you know, are walking 178 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:26,800 around and they're perfectly awake. 179 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,440 But when someone usually tells a story about a ghost encounter, 180 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:34,960 they're on the way to waking up or on their way to going to 181 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,480 sleep. And you get that Gray area where 182 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,480 you're pulling from dreams and being awake. 183 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:48,520 What is the You know, what's been the funniest failed attempt 184 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,520 you ever witnessed to win the 500 grand? 185 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:58,560 The funniest fail? There's been a lot of them. 186 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:02,000 I mean, as you might imagine, we we deal with some interesting 187 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:02,840 people. Oh yeah. 188 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,480 I bet during COVID, the guy came over and said he could teleport 189 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:13,280 himself across our parking lot, which I mean, I, this is the 190 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,280 test I love because all I have to do is put like some police 191 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,840 tape across here and tell him to go from this side to that side. 192 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:27,480 And we're just kind of everybody's got masks on. 193 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,160 We're like, oh, you know, anytime you're ready. 194 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,920 And he goes, I did it. And we're like, no, no, you 195 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,600 didn't. Wait a minute. 196 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,960 Did you guys have security? I mean, aren't you nervous about 197 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,600 like, let's letting this guy in the door? 198 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,320 Well, I yes, yes, we have security. 199 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:51,160 Yes, we are nervous sometimes. I mean, look, I have two ex cops 200 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,440 on my investigations team, so that helps. 201 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,360 And you know, I've been in a few fights myself. 202 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:04,040 So between the three of us, that calms me down a little bit. 203 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,480 But yeah, I mean, we've had people show up drunk off their 204 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,960 asses to do a telepathy test. Yeah. 205 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,560 Well, you know, they showed up early one time, the two guys. 206 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,560 And by the way, they took a bus all the way from Tacoma to get 207 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:27,560 here for the test, which raised some suspicions right away 208 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:31,880 because why would you, I mean, the, at the time, this is years 209 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,960 ago, at the time a, a flight from Tacoma like it was like 210 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:44,440 $225 and the bus was $223. So why not just take an airplane 211 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,680 to come down here? I bet, I bet in the zener test 212 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:52,920 everything was WAVY, right? WAVY lines, WAVY circle, WAVY 213 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,600 square. Well, he made the mistake it it 214 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,400 was a regular playing card, so he had a one out of 52 chance 215 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,000 for each guest. And so they they came early and 216 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,920 we said we're not ready for you yet to come back in an hour. 217 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:12,000 And they came back in an hour with this much vodka left in an 218 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,640 empty bottle, and they were stewed. 219 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,360 And we had to kind of get together and say, do we even 220 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,720 test these idiots? And, you know, the answer was 221 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,160 the answer was yes. I mean, being drunk doesn't 222 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,080 necessarily preclude you from having paranormal powers. 223 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,000 We can't just say, no, we're drunk. 224 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,560 We don't want to deal with you. So we let them take the test. 225 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,840 James, have you ever gotten a? Have you ever gotten a psychic 226 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,320 reading yourself? Oh yeah, many times. 227 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,080 What do you think? How's that been? 228 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:50,200 Well, it's I, I mean, I know a fair amount about the technique 229 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,640 called cold reading, and that's all it ever is. 230 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,080 It's, it's people prodding and probing, asking questions, 231 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,320 making guesses that apply to lots of people. 232 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,960 And you know, there's, there's books written on what cold 233 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,400 reading is. But it is a technique and it 234 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,080 does if it's done well. And some people are quite 235 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,000 skilled at it. If it's done well, it it, it 236 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,080 sounds like at least at points of the conversation, it sounds 237 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,040 like you know something you couldn't have otherwise known. 238 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:30,640 In 26 years of testing and and dozens and dozens of tests, what 239 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,960 percentage of people have tried to fool us to win the money? 240 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:40,640 Is it a 0 percent? Is it B about 50%? 241 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:45,040 Or is it C all of them tried something. 242 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,240 What do you guys think? I know the answer. 243 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:49,800 I watched your, I watched your website. 244 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,280 So I'll let John take a guess. Well, because I know how humans 245 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,360 are with money, I'm going to have to go with C I'm have to go 246 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,040 with 100%. Yeah, And that's what most 247 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,560 people thought. And going into it, that's what I 248 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,040 thought as well. And that's what. 249 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,080 And we still prepare for that, by the way. 250 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,560 We prepare for it. But the answer is A not a single 251 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,560 person has tried to trick us in 26 years. 252 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,720 Everybody who shows up is a true believer in their own abilities, 253 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,720 and they're often shocked when they can't perform on demand. 254 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,760 Wow, that's something. That's their own version. 255 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,320 They need their own. Yeah, they they have performance 256 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,240 anxiety. Yeah, right, psychic. 257 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,760 Performance anxiety? Well. 258 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,400 I mean listen, I mean. It's, it's insane. 259 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,320 Like, listen, I document spirits, right? 260 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,280 That's what I do. I'm not like Gary said, I'm not 261 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,640 an investigator. I'm not trying to prove this. 262 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,600 I'm not trying to prove that. It's amazing the amount of 263 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,200 people that are like, you know, we're going to send you the 264 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,880 healing light of the Phoenix to protect you or the, the, the 265 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,720 dozen Walmart mediums that come into the chat that claim that 266 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,640 there's a, a little boy standing in the backroom. 267 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,480 And it's like, like that's not logical. 268 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,720 There's there's no logic there. And even if they have a gift, 269 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,079 how am I with the three to 400 people that are watching me live 270 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,599 supposed to take that? We don't have a gift. 271 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,000 We have no special powers. We're supposed to take that at 272 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,880 face value. Yeah. 273 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,079 So yeah. James, has anything ever given 274 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:25,920 you pause? Have you ever been around 275 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:32,320 something that is unexplained? Well, the closest thing anyone 276 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:39,320 ever came to closest person anyone ever did to to pass a 277 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,840 test. And by the way, our tests are 278 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,480 two-part you have to pass what we call preliminary 279 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,520 demonstration. Then if you pass that, you go on 280 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,840 to the half million dollar prize. 281 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,240 And the the best anyone ever did in 26 years was one of my own 282 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,920 guys sitting in the hot seat during a rehearsal where we had 283 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,480 a bunch of objects behind a curtain. 284 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,000 And he had to guess, you know, one out of 10 of each of the 285 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,000 objects. And he got like 3 or 4 in a row, 286 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,960 right? And I was like, all right, quit 287 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,160 screwing around you guys who's playing games. 288 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,240 And no one was playing games. He actually just got super 289 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,520 lucky, you know, for those first few guesses. 290 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,440 After that, he tanked and, and missed the rest of them. 291 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,920 But yeah, I the answer is nobody has gotten that close. 292 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,200 It's really been sort of anti climactic. 293 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,960 So no one's made it to the second part, is what you're 294 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,040 saying? No one's ever made it past the 295 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,360 the first part. Not even close. 296 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,160 So a lot of our listeners, a lot of a lot of our listeners and a 297 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,880 lot of John's followers, they use a lot of, you know, all the 298 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,040 gear in the ghost world, right? They love it from an engineering 299 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,760 and you know perspective. Why do you why do you think 300 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,320 these devices yield so many false positives? 301 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,080 You know, and is there, is there any equipment that you even find 302 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,760 remotely interesting? No, we don't use any of that 303 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,880 stuff. I, I mean, first of all, it's 304 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:18,560 based on the premise that ghosts have a, an electromagnetic well, 305 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,320 it's based on the, the premise that ghosts exist, A and B, if 306 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:29,040 they do exist, they have this ability to interact with an 307 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,440 electromagnetic field. So those are two assumptions 308 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,920 that people are making about this gear that are unproved as 309 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,840 as far as we're concerned. So when you're firing up an EMF 310 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,040 meter and the dial moves over or the thing lights up or whatever, 311 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,600 yeah, it's detecting something. It's detecting EMF. 312 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:55,040 There's EMF everywhere. We're bombarded by radio waves 313 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,680 and microwaves and, you know, across the spectrum. 314 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,760 And ourselves. What's that and and? 315 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,200 Ourselves. And our, yeah, I mean it, 316 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,520 there's, there's all sorts of reasons for these instruments 317 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,280 going off. Well, yeah, I mean, look, you 318 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,240 know, we we met this one ghost hunter from the UK and this guy 319 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,240 really sort of he he really impressed me in just terms of 320 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,480 how he thinks about things. This guy, Stephen Parsons, and 321 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,080 he wrote a book called Ghostology. 322 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,720 And all it does is the majority of the book talks about 323 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,840 equipment and it's not about, it's like, listen, man, this is 324 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,240 an EMF meter. It measures electromagnetic 325 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,280 fields. It doesn't measure ghosts, it 326 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,680 just measures electromagnetic fields. 327 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,400 This is a camera. It's the human eye sees at this 328 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,960 rate. This camera sees at 8 pixels. 329 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,520 It's not that good compared to the eye. 330 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,840 No way. And he talks about it and you 331 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:49,600 would love this. The one thing that he that stood 332 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,920 by us, he described ghost hunters to to like real 333 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,800 scientists, whereas a real scientist will do a triple blind 334 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,120 experiment and if the results come back, that's not in their 335 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,000 favor, they go, well, I guess we were wrong. 336 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,520 Whereas a ghost hunter will do a triple blind experiment and if 337 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,280 the ghost and if the results don't come back in their favor, 338 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,000 they'll go, well, I guess the ghosts are really just something 339 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,000 must be wrong. It didn't, it didn't it didn't 340 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,800 match. So, you know, it just doesn't 341 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,440 look like they won't it. Didn't match what they wanted. 342 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,760 And he's a ghost hunter, right? He's a believer. 343 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,960 He understands, you know, he but he values a human experience, 344 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,680 you know, which I think is, is sort of an interesting sort of 345 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:37,600 take on on all this stuff. Do you find in, in your 346 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,040 experience as a showman and as a professional comedian that you 347 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,400 sort of understand how people are coming at you in a certain 348 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,600 way when you're, when you're trying to deconstruct like their 349 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,960 story, It's like, or, well, I mean, you said that they're not 350 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,040 trying to hoax you, but do you feel you have a better eye for 351 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,080 bullshit because of it? Well, yeah, I mean, listen, any 352 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,120 of us, James Randi used to say this all the time. 353 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,280 Any of us can be fooled. You know, Penn and Teller don't 354 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,760 know how every magic trick in the world is done. 355 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,520 So, you know, there, it's possible that we can be fooled, 356 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,800 too. We we we take these precautions. 357 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:24,560 But yeah, I, I mean, experience helps a lot. 358 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,400 Knowing people in the magic performer world helps because I 359 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,960 have some a little bit of knowledge about how mentalists 360 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,280 work and conjurers work, all that stuff really helps. 361 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,800 And by the way, I also have, let's see, I think either four 362 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:51,760 or five mental health professionals on our team right 363 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,560 now. So that's a big deal too, to be 364 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,600 able to look through the lens of people who are experiencing 365 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,800 unique things that the rest of us are not experiencing. 366 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,000 Are you seeing things? Are you hearing things that no 367 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,560 one else is seeing or hearing? Well, there are reasons and 368 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,080 explanations for that. And sometimes the mental health 369 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,760 world is are the people that tap for that. 370 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,280 So James, the the majority of the the cases that you deal 371 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,000 with, would you say they're like psychic or mediums or is it like 372 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,360 mixed? It's what are they trying to 373 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,880 prove. Yeah, it's it's pretty mixed. 374 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:38,840 Probably telepaths are the most frequent person and, and, and we 375 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:44,680 find this sort of weird. Most of the people who contact 376 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,200 us say they are transmitting and other people can hear their 377 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:55,200 thoughts, which raises the flag of schizophrenia or some other 378 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,800 mental issue. So I can't hear other people's 379 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,400 thoughts, but they can hear my thoughts, which sometimes causes 380 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,520 a problem because we're like, well, we don't want to be the 381 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,280 other side of that equation. You got to find someone else who 382 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,000 can hear your thoughts and we're going to give you some stuff to 383 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,360 send across. So, so those are that's probably 384 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:22,520 the most we get a fair amount of dowsers people can douse for the 385 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,880 water or. Oh, dowsing rods, yeah. 386 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,720 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and a lot of telekinetics 387 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,320 people think that they are moving things with their minds. 388 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:39,080 And you know, if you have seen the stuff online, it's almost 389 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,960 always something super light, like a little. 390 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,400 Oh, yeah, like tissues or something. 391 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,480 Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's, yeah, It's something. 392 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:48,640 I know exactly what you're talking about. 393 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,680 Although a couple of people have said that they can move a car 394 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,960 and I'm like, OK, you know, let's see it in the parking lot. 395 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,680 We're going to tape off the wheels. 396 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Just get it past the tape and I'll write the check right now. 397 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,600 It's not just not my car, right? It's just not my car. 398 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,360 James, James, do you believe in, you know, intuition or certain 399 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,440 things? Like, do you think people have 400 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,040 anything like that? Yeah, I, I mean, I think that 401 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,680 sort of thing. I guess it depends on what you 402 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,840 mean by intuition, but if well. You know, here's what I mean. 403 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,880 You know, everyone has a, you know, in a bar. 404 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,440 Right. And then all of a sudden 405 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,080 somebody walks in, your back is to the door, yet you get that 406 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,680 feeling like, oh crap, you know who just walked in here? 407 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,320 And you look and it's like, OK, who is this? 408 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:46,240 Like that, that sort of thing. Just getting like a bad vibe off 409 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,800 of somebody like the fighter, you know, like a fight or flight 410 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,920 sort of reflex that we all have, like an, you know, like just 411 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,200 something like on that level. Do you believe in that as a? 412 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,480 Well, I do believe in that, but I don't think there's anything 413 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,880 magical about it. You know, I think we perceive 414 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,240 the world unconsciously in a lot of ways that we're not aware of. 415 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,960 We're hearing things, we're seeing things, sensing, feeling. 416 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,040 We're using all our senses in a way. 417 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,920 And if something all of a sudden, and I was a bouncer for 418 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,080 a while, so I, I sort of know what this is. 419 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,600 If something's not right, like it gets quiet over there or you 420 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,560 know, you know, something weird out of the ordinary happened, 421 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,880 you may not be consciously aware of it, but it does grab your 422 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,440 attention in some way. And I think that's what a lot of 423 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,960 people are talking about when they're talking about intuition 424 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,880 or if someone's like creepy somehow, or you like you like 425 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,840 you say you're getting a bad vibe off them. 426 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,960 That's not happening in a vacuum. 427 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,920 You're observing something that's causing that feeling. 428 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:54,480 That's all. That's all true. 429 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,480 I don't I don't disagree with that, I just I agree with that 430 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,800 100%. I just wonder if what that means 431 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,520 though. Some people are better at 432 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,520 picking up those signs than others, right? 433 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,800 Like, I look at it, I compare a lot of this and a lot of the 434 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,880 people I've talked to just doing this podcast, right? 435 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,480 Like, and people have heard me say it before, you know, someone 436 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,640 who could throw a baseball at 98 miles an hour. 437 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,920 I don't think you can teach it. You might be able to get, you 438 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,160 know, if you're, if you could throw a baseball that fast, you 439 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,440 probably could throw it fast and then you can get a little better 440 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,080 with training. But you can't teach someone who 441 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,120 can do it, who can't do it to get there. 442 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,760 And I yeah. And it's a gift, right? 443 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,680 To be able to do that to me is some sort of a difference in 444 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,520 your Physiology, that it's a gift. 445 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,880 Yeah, but nobody walks out of the house and throws a 98 mile 446 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,920 an hour fastball. They work at it for years. 447 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,680 And so there is I I know what you're saying. 448 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,800 I mean, this is, you know, when you start talking about pro 449 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,720 athletes, which the same concept could be expanded into other 450 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:59,440 things, you know, your genetics and your environment are are, 451 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520 are key to that. And so can genetics and 452 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,880 environment make someone a better observer or be more 453 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,800 sensitive to something that's going on around them? 454 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,480 Absolutely. I mean, I depend on it. 455 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,200 But before I leave the house, I ask my wife every time, you 456 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,120 know, everything OK, You know, do I have the green light to 457 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,840 leave? And she's like, yeah, I trust 458 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,600 her vision and sensibilities more than my own. 459 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,400 So it happens. Right, you know, there's a lot 460 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,720 of with all of the paranormal shows that are out there, right? 461 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,040 You know, and that sort of really popped, which is probably 462 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,360 why, you know, the tech is so big, you know, and it's you got 463 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,880 to show up in vans to to sort of with gear to to prove to people 464 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,560 you think that you're a scientist by having gear. 465 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,080 But has that, you know, sort of do you feel like that's just 466 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,600 harmless fun or is it really dam? 467 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,160 Do you find it damaging to the public's perception of science? 468 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,560 I, I mean, it's mostly fun. And I, I mean, I know a lot of 469 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,120 people just don't take it that seriously. 470 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:19,480 It's not, but the problem is it does influence people's beliefs 471 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:27,080 about things and because it's one sided you get to shoot all 472 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,160 day and edit it down to the, you know, the half hour of 473 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,080 interesting stuff that happens to the exclusion of all the 474 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,800 boring and nothing happened stuff. 475 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,800 And it's not, it doesn't represent reality. 476 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,480 So I, I do get a little discouraged that, you know, 477 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,800 people walk away from a show like that and they're like, how 478 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,280 do you explain that? And I say, you got 5 minutes. 479 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,760 How do you explain John Edward? How do you explain Theresa 480 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,000 Caputo and all these other people who are doing this stuff 481 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,360 on TV? They're editing the hell out of 482 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,840 this thing. And what you're watching is not 483 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,560 what happened in real life. But nobody knows that. 484 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,400 What is the single most persistent myth that you find, 485 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,120 you know, people that you consider intelligent, rational 486 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,960 people still believe in? Well, I mean other than God. 487 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:32,480 Well, yeah, that's he's #1 the big guy #1 I don't know. 488 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:38,960 I mean, you know, the the UFO thing is a little discouraging 489 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,800 because, you know, again, and you got to remember people are 490 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,000 making money off of all these beliefs. 491 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,160 They're they're they're doing podcasts and they're writing 492 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,680 books and there's TV shows and all this stuff. 493 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,720 So there's great incentive for people to perpetuate a wrong 494 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,200 version of some of the stuff that happened and with the UFOs 495 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,960 and with the ghost to all these things have real rational, 496 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:14,760 science based explanations and most people just don't go seek 497 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,280 those out. It's a lot more fun to think 498 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,640 that we're being visited by aliens from another planet or 499 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,680 that ghosts are living in our attic. 500 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,160 That's the bore. That's the sexier, more 501 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,800 interesting story. Then here's the science behind 502 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,600 why this video looks like this. But it's really that. 503 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,720 Do you leave yourself open though, for the unknown? 504 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,520 I mean, you know, it's like we've talked about it here, 505 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:40,760 right? The, you know, we didn't even 506 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,280 know how lightning works until we invented the high speed 507 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:44,560 camera. You know what I mean? 508 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,480 It's like there's still, you know, and I've heard some of the 509 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,440 people on your, you know, it's like the neuroscience, the 510 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:56,600 neuro, the neurologist on your show talk about consciousness. 511 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,520 And it was, you know, and yes, you're, you know, I agree. 512 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,200 Consciousness is developed in the brain, but then he sort of 513 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,560 stops there. And I think the truth is we 514 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,800 really don't know what consciousness is. 515 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,400 We know where it starts, but we don't know what it is yet. 516 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,280 I mean that, you know, that there's a lot to learn about 517 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,760 consciousness is true and and I think the people who studied in 518 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,960 depth would admit that. But what we were talking about, 519 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,680 and the guy's name is Steve Novella and he's he's a 520 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:37,400 neuroscientist and he's a brilliant guy that was in that 521 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:42,360 discussion was talking about whether something survives 522 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,320 death. And so for this ghost or 523 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,560 whatever that's walking around and can talk and scaring people 524 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:57,120 and blah blah blah continues on after your body is dead, that's 525 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,760 extremely unlikely and not at all supported by the science. 526 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,280 So consciousness goes away when the brain stops functioning and 527 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,240 it doesn't have its own self existence like some ball. 528 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,160 It just leaves your dead body and goes find somewhere else to 529 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,520 be. That's just not consistent with 530 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,400 the science. Yeah, Listen, you know, I can't 531 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,200 argue because I don't know how it how it all works. 532 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,920 There is some, there's the one thing, look, one thing that we 533 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160 sort of play up in here or talk about a lot and. 534 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,960 Which but you can't argue science. 535 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,000 Well, yeah, but the one thing we talk about here a lot. 536 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,440 A bull doesn't fly out of someone's body. 537 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,520 And you know, that's the spirit. You know, that's the trouble I 538 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,200 deal with when when I'm documenting spirits, you know? 539 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,960 So, James, I don't know if you know this, but I have theories, 540 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,360 right? About memory and about what 541 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,720 spirits are I I believe they're memory, right? 542 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,920 Because I like you, James, the way you described it, there's no 543 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,920 way the brain dies and then all of a sudden some our spirit 544 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,680 floats out of our body. You know, trying to explain this 545 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,480 to people in such a saturated environment is near impossible. 546 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,080 Nobody wants to hear that. They want to believe in God. 547 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,560 They want to believe in angels, they want to believe in all 548 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,040 this. They can't they, they first of 549 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,360 all, people have a hard time knowing that I'm an atheist and 550 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,320 I document spirits. That's like, you know, but. 551 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,679 But just just just make it succinct. 552 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,920 John believes that that the spirits he's talking to are 553 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,840 memories that are somehow attached to energy or 554 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,239 electricity and matter that that disperse or dissipate from our 555 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,080 body when we pass. Because we do have electrical 556 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,679 synapses in our brain, that energy does go somewhere. 557 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,440 We don't know where, we don't know how, and we don't know 558 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,679 truly what consciousness is and that these might be imprints of 559 00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:56,239 memory somehow. Whatever determined, I don't 560 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,840 know, you know, I don't know what the fuck it is, but it's 561 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,000 like that's might be what it. Right. 562 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:02,760 Like that's a theory. Well, no, that's OK. 563 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,440 And you can't argue with science. 564 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,280 You can, if you have a a competing theory with you know 565 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,800 what the popular scientific consensus is on anything, 566 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,280 absolutely come up with something better. 567 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:21,160 Throw it out there, document it, test it, do it. 568 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,520 I mean, I don't know of anyone who, who thinks that in the 569 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:33,040 world, who understands what both memory is and physics are, that, 570 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,440 you know, somehow those two things could be reconciled. 571 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:42,240 Maybe it can, but the onus is on you who are saying this is what 572 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,960 I believe. The onus is on you to show how 573 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,960 that's possible. No, for sure for you. 574 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,840 And look, look, I love, you know, I love reading like I'm 575 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,880 right now. This is my book of I'm on to 576 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,440 this book, right, Carl Sagan's, which is a great, you know, 577 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,360 skeptic, you know, skeptical. Look at all this stuff. 578 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,280 And it's I read another book by a professor named Mark Eaton 579 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,240 called Sensing Spirits, which is great because it's really about 580 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,000 the social construct of ghosts. Like the only reason you call 581 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,080 the unexplained a ghost is because it's how you were 582 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,480 raised. You heard a ghost story, your 583 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,840 parents talking about this horror movies. 584 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,600 The only reason you know what a ghost is is because you were 585 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,320 told what 1 was when you were little. 586 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,640 If you, you know, it's like the gods must be crazy. 587 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,920 If you never had a coke bottle, you wouldn't know what it's for. 588 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,400 So it's that you know what I mean? 589 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,480 Like it's that idea. So I'm I, I do get a lot of it. 590 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,520 I think for me, I put a little more stock in this idea of 591 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:40,480 intuition from what I've seen and sort of like this muscle 592 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,800 that some people just might be more in tune with something for 593 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,920 now and we don't know how to measure it. 594 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,680 That unexplained thing that we don't know how to measure. 595 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,920 Because when I, you know, I've had, I've gotten, I've gotten 596 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,200 readings and I've had one reading that just blew my mind. 597 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,920 And I, and I am can't figure out the specifics of what she told 598 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,280 me. I can't. 599 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:05,800 And it wasn't a cold reading either. 600 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:06,760 It wasn't. That was the. 601 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,840 It wasn't a cold reading. It wasn't a cold reading. 602 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,000 It was very strange. Hey, James. 603 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,120 Real quick, yeah. Wait, wait. 604 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,760 Wait, wait, wait, John. Go ahead, James. 605 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,560 Cold reading is rambling. It's I, I would love to hear 606 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,760 that reading a recording of that and go over it and, and, and 607 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,960 analyze it a little bit and talk about it. 608 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,000 What we can. Make that happen. 609 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:34,480 Yeah, yeah. It's, I aired it, I aired it. 610 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,760 It's it's the whole. Thing OK, yeah, send that to me 611 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,880 because I'll. I'll send you a detail. 612 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,080 I'll tell you exactly how she did it. 613 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,320 Probably I could be a whole episode. 614 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,880 Practically. Hey, James, listen, James, can 615 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,120 you tell us the funniest thing that you've come across when 616 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,800 dealing with this, with just dealing with people and their 617 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,840 and their claims? Like what's what made you when 618 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,480 you rest your head at night, just put a smile on your face 619 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,720 and chuckle before you go to bed thinking about it? 620 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:08,080 There was one guy, there was one guy in the South Side of Chicago 621 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,920 where I'm from, incidentally, and he said that he had a 622 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:19,560 magical horsefly that could escape his cookie jar. 623 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:27,480 So I said upward, tell me about the the cookie jar is sealed and 624 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,480 he was in there last night and this morning he's gone. 625 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,640 Yes. Are you sure it was screwed on 626 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:36,720 tight? Yes. 627 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,880 And and then he came back like 6 months later. 628 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,840 The guy's name is John. And I said, John, I don't think 629 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,760 flies live for six months. Are you sure it's the same one? 630 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,040 And he said, Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that's it's him all 631 00:38:53,040 --> 00:39:05,360 right. Yeah, no mistaking this guy. 632 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,680 So I said, all right, John, what? 633 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,920 This is what the test is going to look like. 634 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,440 You're going to have to catch a horse fly and put him in the jar 635 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,480 and you're going to have to give me the jar for a night or 636 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,760 something or I don't know how we're going to do this, but 637 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,480 we're going to check him in the morning and see if he's still 638 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,760 there and that's going to be the test, so. 639 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,400 James, what do you, what do you think the test would be for for 640 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,720 us, for John's theory, if we wanted to try to win the 500 641 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,960 grand? This time I got, I got to time 642 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,080 you out for a second there, Gary. 643 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,520 I wouldn't be able to do it because I feel I have no guess. 644 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:42,960 I know that. I know you wouldn't. 645 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,720 That's why I'm asking James. James. 646 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,080 I know. That's why I'm asking James. 647 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,040 What would be if, if somebody walked in with this theory, what 648 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,760 would you say to them? How would they to to try to 649 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:55,920 prove it? Or just prove it. 650 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:57,720 Oh, you're talking about? It's different. 651 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:05,360 This is part of our process is we have to narrow down what 652 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:11,280 you're saying to a provable, demonstrable claim that we can 653 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,080 test. So I, I mean, the way our 654 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,360 process would work, I would say, John, you know, you're, you're 655 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,440 saying that a memory somehow attaches itself to something 656 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,560 physical. You know, how do you know that? 657 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:34,080 How does it manifest itself? Could we, you know, I'd have to 658 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,600 dig deeper into it just to see what it is in the 1st place and 659 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,640 if it could be demonstrated. Because a lot of people come to 660 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,920 us and there's they're like, oh, I can do this, this, this and 661 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,240 this and you have to follow me and around. 662 00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,440 And it's like, no, give us your best thing. 663 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,000 That is, sort of. Yeah, No, See that? 664 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,440 Yeah, See, that's the thing. You wouldn't have to, like, 665 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,280 shadow me around. We wouldn't have to go to a 666 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,480 cemetery. You know, according to the 667 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,440 theory, you know, spirits are everywhere, Memories are 668 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,880 everywhere. It could be a building that's 669 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,680 been there for 50 years. And you, we run a spirit box. 670 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,000 I talk to whatever's there and in hoping that we get somebody 671 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,320 who worked there, that would be that would be the only way to 672 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,600 test it. But then again, then you go 673 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,960 against the validity of the spirit boxes and you go up 674 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,160 again. You know, the random chance of a 675 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,760 name being said. It's yeah. 676 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:39,400 Listen, I trust me because, James, I am, I am a skeptic. 677 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,080 I always say this. I am 90% skeptic, 10% believer. 678 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,640 And I set the bar high for myself with my documentation and 679 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,160 I get it. But I also don't claim to have 680 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,080 any gifts, you know, I have no claim in that 500K because 681 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,480 there's nothing special about me. 682 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,720 I'm just a regular dude. We're definitely skeptical about 683 00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:07,120 the spirit boxes That's going to be, you know, those things work, 684 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,520 right? Oh, of course. 685 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,720 Yes, yeah, yeah, sure. Listen, we, we, we're we're 686 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:13,760 under no delusions. We always say, like if someone 687 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,920 created an app that could talk to the dead, the world as we 688 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,920 know it would change forever. You know, it's like, I don't 689 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:23,360 look at, I, I don't look at any of this stuff as any, as any 690 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,560 sort of secret weapon. And, and I'll, I'll joke around 691 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,280 about a lot, right? Like if, if you hire a Carpenter 692 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,800 to renovate your house and he fucks the whole thing up, you're 693 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,600 not going to blame his hammer, you know what I'm saying? 694 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,080 It's like it's, it's the it's just some tool that these guys 695 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,680 use, which is why, you know, I, I tend to, but when I, when we 696 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,880 talk about intuition or and I'm using the word intuition, by the 697 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,800 way, which might be the wrong word, but it's just the simplest 698 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,840 one that I think we can all get a handle on. 699 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,480 But it's AI do think John is a little more plugged in than some 700 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,480 other people and sort of recognizing what is happening 701 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,720 because when I use these devices or these tools, I get Dick and 702 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:02,760 when he and when when I see him use it, it's like it's what the 703 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:08,800 specificity that pops up I find very strange and it's. 704 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,080 I mean, the, the part of the, the what, what I would say is 705 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,520 happening with things like those spirit boxes and, and this was 706 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,440 the same thing that happens with cold reading as well, by the 707 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:28,480 way, is your, you'll get some feedback from the thing word or 708 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,840 a name or whatever. And then you, the user, has to 709 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,360 retrofit that name to fit something that makes sense. 710 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,360 People do that all the time. I don't disagree with James one 711 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,200 bit. In fact, that's one of my, 712 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,360 that's one of my big things that I speak about on my live stream, 713 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:51,400 which is the association. Like I need more than a name 714 00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:54,800 like, so here's what I do. And a lot of people don't like 715 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,560 this spirit comes through and says, let's say Frank, Hey, hey, 716 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,400 Frank what's going on? Frank How old are you? 717 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:08,240 Frank, No age is given. I move on to the next thing 718 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,080 while everybody is stuck on that name. 719 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,040 Frank. Well, if Frank can't give me an 720 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,320 H, what am I supposed to do with that? 721 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,440 That's nothing. That that's nothing. 722 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,960 That's randomness. Even if there is something 723 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,040 there, there's no way for me to prove that that Frank is there. 724 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,880 I need an H OK, so let's say Frank does give me an H. 725 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,040 Then the next important question. 726 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,880 Hey, Frank, what the hell are you doing here? 727 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,800 You know, why are you here, Frank? 728 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,480 Why were you here in the 1st place? 729 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:40,880 You know? And then I try to build a 730 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,040 conversation off that if the answers aren't specific, I want 731 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,320 nothing to do with it. While in your experience, people 732 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,960 using spirit boxes, as you said, they associate with everything. 733 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:58,200 They try to connect the dots and it's, it's, it gives no credence 734 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,680 to these actual devices when people use them that way. 735 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,400 Is everyone scared of how they're going to look, you know? 736 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,360 Right. Or or it's like, you know, when 737 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,320 the you know, John Edward or James Van Prague or Caputo or 738 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,640 whatever come and says I'm getting an emerald J name. 739 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,640 You're connecting the dots who the amber J or even if it's more 740 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,040 specific, someone who is Mary over here? 741 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,080 Yeah, I know Mary. OK, well that's who I'm talking 742 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,480 to one of. The most common names in the 743 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,000 19th century, 18th to 19th century. 744 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,840 Yeah, exactly. And I actually, yeah, it's funny 745 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,000 you mentioned that because we went to watch a couple of 746 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,160 different James Van Praagh when he had his show was being taped 747 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,920 out here pretty close to CFI. And I heard him do two or three 748 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,560 times say I'm getting an M or AJ name. 749 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,120 So I went straight to the computer and I was like, you 750 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,920 know, what are the most popular names over the last 50 years? 751 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,520 And out of the top ten men and women names like 4 of them were 752 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,160 M&J. So he's making a good solid 753 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,280 guess and he gets a lot of hits that way. 754 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,560 All, all, all I know is that what James is saying is 100% 755 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,160 correct and I deal with it constantly. 756 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:24,480 I can't tell you how many people, I can't tell you how 757 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,680 many people come into my live streams and say, John, you're 758 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,240 ignoring the spirits. And it's like, no, I'm not 759 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,640 ignoring the spirits. There's nothing viable here. 760 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,560 You, we. I need more. 761 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,080 My logical brain needs more. Well, James would say the whole 762 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,040 goddamn thing is not a lie. Well, but that's the thing 763 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,120 though. There are times where I get that 764 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,960 there are times it's not all the time. 765 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,800 And that's what you're talking about, Gary. 766 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,760 When I'm walking through a cemetery and all the sudden a 767 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:59,240 name Chaz Fields comes up. Chaz Fields. 768 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,680 Who's name Chaz these days? Nobody. 769 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,520 And then the last name Fields, that's when it's like, OK Chaz, 770 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,520 let's have a conversation. And that's what I. 771 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,200 There's been some weird stuff. There's been some weird stuff. 772 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:18,440 That's why I don't James, I have to ask you this because we asked 773 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,440 all our guests this. I mean, I don't know if maybe 774 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,600 I'll love the answer, but do you think, you know, it's like you 775 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,640 know, do you, do you believe? Do you? 776 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,800 What do you think spirits are? Yeah, I don't think I don't 777 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,840 believe in spirits 0. OK, so hold on James, let's say 778 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,800 did. Let's say all of a sudden you 779 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,040 got some evidence and you're like, OK, 90% of this is 780 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,320 bullshit, but there is that little bit that's real. 781 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,440 Let's say that happens in the near future for you. 782 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,960 What would you think they are? Well, I, I mean, the first thing 783 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,800 I would do is what was that evidence and do I trust it? 784 00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,480 Because I mean, you know, a lot of people have these experiences 785 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,560 and they're misinterpreting the, the, the experience. 786 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:08,200 I, I woke up 1 morning or one night, I don't even remember 787 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:15,400 what it was now, but I, I felt a hand grabbed my calf and it 788 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,800 felt, I can testify, it felt so real. 789 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,200 I jumped out of bed and thought someone in the house was playing 790 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,280 a joke on me. But the door was locked and the 791 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,640 windows were locked and no one's under the bed or in the room at 792 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,800 all. But I dreamt that that hand 793 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,880 touching me. So when evidence comes up that 794 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:43,120 sort of leads people to believe in something like that, I take a 795 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,320 breath and say OK, what are the logical science based 796 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,320 explanations that could be responsible for that experience 797 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:56,160 and go from there. Would you, But if you know, I 798 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,560 think the, the real, the question here is sort of, you 799 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,120 know, if a, if a ghost walked into the Center for inquiry and 800 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:06,360 passed every test, how would, how would you change? 801 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,160 Would your whole worldview change? 802 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,280 I mean, would you just be like, well, you know, would you sign 803 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,680 that check and quit and go back to the improv? 804 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,360 Or would you just like, you know, what would be, what would, 805 00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:18,440 what would happen? Yeah. 806 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,640 It's like, OK, it's time to retire. 807 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,720 No, I mean, it's so hard for me to imagine that knowing what I 808 00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:33,320 do, I, I would really, I mean, first of all, I, I might even 809 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:38,640 say, I mean, I'm kind of at the point where I look at stuff like 810 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,800 that. And even with like Perriadoglia, 811 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,640 you know, picking images out of noise out in. 812 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,560 The world and something because. That's right. 813 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,400 Very good. So, you know, sometimes that 814 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,600 stuff is really cool and I really try to appreciate, you 815 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,480 know, like seeing a face in something that shouldn't have a 816 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:08,720 face in it or a wild coincidence that, you know, so many things 817 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:12,280 had to happen in in the right way for this coincidence to 818 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,240 happen. I try to just take a step back 819 00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:16,360 and say, wow, that's really cool. 820 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:21,760 That doesn't happen very often. If we started getting science 821 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,920 based information that spirits existed, then there's going to 822 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,520 be a a good scientific explanation. 823 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,480 And yeah, science doesn't know everything yet. 824 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,280 It's possible that we missed something or don't understand 825 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,520 something about how the universe works and now we look into it 826 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,960 and ghosts aren't paranormal anymore. 827 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,400 There's science based and there will be an explanation. 828 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,440 When I owe you? How many, how many of these, how 829 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:57,720 many of these come in James, how many of these come in a year for 830 00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:01,480 you, these claims of, you know, paranormal activity? 831 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:06,440 So we got for well claims in general a a a much bigger 832 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,840 number, but. I mean just specifically like 833 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,680 they want to win the 500. Grand Yeah. 834 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:17,280 So applications for the $500,000 prize, we get between 150 and 835 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:23,040 200 a year and we end up testing usually between 8:00 and 12:00. 836 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:28,360 People out of that 150 to 200. Most of the people, you know, 837 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,000 find out what the tests are, we're going to get going to be. 838 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,400 We always tell people try this at home first, you know, this is 839 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,720 what it's going to look like. And you know, most of them just 840 00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:42,360 never show up to be tested do. You ever? 841 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:48,200 I mean, Jay, is there any hope or like of when you go to the 842 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,840 when you go to the office that you will be proven wrong? 843 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,960 Like do you ever just like hope for the wonder? 844 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,320 Do you know what I mean? Like is there anything left in 845 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,360 you that wants the joy of being blown away? 846 00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:02,400 Or you're just like, fuck, I got to listen to this crazy person, 847 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:07,080 this guy, and it's like, get a load of this guy, you know? 848 00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:11,480 Or is there any like, let me let today be the day where it's like 849 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,280 I am blown away? Officially, I never say that. 850 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,000 Oh no. You're right. 851 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:26,680 But no, you know, I, I mean, I'm so, and I was a crappy science 852 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,240 student when I was like in junior high and high school and 853 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,440 all, most of my science understanding, limited as it is, 854 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:41,960 has happened after college. And I'm so fascinated about how 855 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,760 the world really works and how psychology really works and 856 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:50,960 physics and everything else that I'm so much more excited about 857 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:57,560 that aspect of what reality is going to bring me today than, 858 00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,800 you know, hoping some wacky paranormal thing comes true. 859 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,480 So I mean, that's kind of my angle. 860 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,520 How cool would it be if somebody walked through his doors one day 861 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,400 and you know a whole new area Science gets discovered. 862 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,680 Like screw the supernatural and and paranormal element of it. 863 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,040 Imagine that. Imagine someone comes walking 864 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,400 through your door and bam it opens up a new you know, 50 865 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,440 years of discovery and whose names attached to it. 866 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,720 Man, yours. That would be wild. 867 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,640 I I do picture James to be the Genghis Khan of the paranormal, 868 00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,200 where he's sitting there with the next having people coming in 869 00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:41,520 and showing him suddenly like. You will spend the night with me 870 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,120 tonight. You're out, You're out. 871 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:52,560 You're out, you're out. Yeah, that's exactly how I want 872 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:59,000 to be remembered as wasting the last 26 years of my life looking 873 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,920 for some shit that doesn't. Listen, James, you know, James, 874 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,480 thank you so much for your time today, man. 875 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,160 By the way, I really appreciate it. 876 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,200 It's it's really interesting. It's really funny. 877 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,360 What is what is the ultimate goal? 878 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,560 You know, if I could leave, leave you with this question for 879 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,840 the for the center of inquiry, you know, like where, where is 880 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:23,280 it going? And you know, it's what is its 881 00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:30,840 pursuit if not to actually prove one of these things is real? 882 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,200 Like why being an organization, you know, like to have an 883 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,680 organization to knock to, to disprove, Isn't it really to 884 00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,520 then say we hope to be, to prove it? 885 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:46,400 Well, I mean, part of it is, and the reason I started the CFI 886 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:52,680 Investigations group is because storytelling is what gets these 887 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,600 things, these beliefs going in the 1st place. 888 00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:01,080 It's a very powerful tool for getting memes out into the 889 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,320 world. And if all we do is sit around 890 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,040 and say, oh, the physics doesn't line up with that. 891 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,360 And you know, we just think this is bullshit and let's go on to 892 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,000 the next thing that doesn't convince anyone. 893 00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:18,800 If I could come in and tell a story about the dozens and 894 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:23,800 dozens of people who absolutely believe they have these powers 895 00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:28,880 and come out with a story and some explanations for why they 896 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,680 thought they could do this and, and why these beliefs persist in 897 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,400 general. But I think it's a much more 898 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:41,320 powerful teaching tool than, you know, just saying there's no way 899 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,160 this could possibly be. So I we're trying to get people 900 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:50,680 to especially now today, you know, there's a, there's been an 901 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,920 assault on science that's horrible. 902 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:58,920 And you get idiots like RFK junior running science based 903 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,440 ends of the the government. It's dangerous, man. 904 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,760 If, if you have people who don't understand science making 905 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:11,000 science based science, science decisions, we're all in trouble. 906 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,640 So we're trying to nudge people on the side of knowing things 907 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,560 through that process of science. Gary, we talked, so are you. 908 00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,480 Trying to tell me, James. No, I know. 909 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,680 But James, are you trying to tell me then that the aliens did 910 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,240 not build the pyramids? Is that what you're saying? 911 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,520 I'm saying that the aliens didn't have to build the 912 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,920 pyramids. A lot of was set upon 913 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,560 unfortunate sons of bitches built the pyramids. 914 00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,600 Total side point, I have my own theory and how the pyramids were 915 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,720 built which. Is well listen, I figured out 916 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,040 how pyramids were built when I was installing generators. 917 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,640 I used to be electrician. OK, we're talking about big ass 918 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,920 generator. Let's hear this five £600 919 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,360 monsters then I'm moving myself. OK, And it's called. 920 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,280 Let's hear this too. No, it's just simple. 921 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,680 You just, once you once you crowbar it up, you get a, a, a, 922 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,280 a pipe underneath it and then you push it a little bit, you 923 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,080 get another one underneath it and you keep going. 924 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:16,240 Next thing you know, one man is moving a £600 generator across 925 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,040 the lawn by himself. That's how those pyramids were 926 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,960 built. Human engineering. 927 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,320 I think it was these my my theory is my theory is the use 928 00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,520 of a lot of slaves and a lot of sand. 929 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,520 I think they used sand. Well, not all. 930 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,400 I think they used sand. Hold on a second, John. 931 00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,920 Hold on, I think they used sand to bring the rocks up to glide 932 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:43,320 it up and they keep using sand and then when it was done, they 933 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,240 used all those slaves to literally dig it out because the 934 00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,880 one thing they have in have out there is sand. 935 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,760 And that's like they wonder how they got that rock up at the 936 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,840 top. That's what I think. 937 00:57:54,840 --> 00:58:01,360 There's a like a 40 year old video of of some guy in Florida 938 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,760 who built the Coral Castle. Did you ever see that? 939 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:04,840 Oh. I I know. 940 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:09,200 What you He had these big blocks of coral and he moved them all 941 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,080 himself and he was like in his 50s when he did it. 942 00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,800 But yeah, it was all leverage and fulcrums and pry bars and 943 00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:17,000 stuff. That's wow. 944 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:18,800 I don't know how we got here. Just sort. 945 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:19,560 Of one of my. Biggest. 946 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,680 One of my biggest gripes with the paranormal especially, but 947 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,520 everything with aliens, the pyramids, you name it, is how 948 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,880 people just take away from us. They take away from us, they 949 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,880 take away. Listen, we could do some vile, 950 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:39,040 horrible, amazing, beautiful, incredible things as a species 951 00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,400 and that gets shipped away from us when we start adding aliens 952 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,560 in and this and that. It's pretty crazy to think 953 00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:46,760 about. But I've always thought of that 954 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:51,080 like, whoa, we're we need help. You know, we can create and 955 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,720 destroy things all the time. We need help. 956 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,160 No, no way, we do. Because look around, John. 957 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,240 I mean, if we are there's, you know, intelligence is a curve 958 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,520 and there's a lot of stupid people. 959 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,240 So you think about there's no way. 960 00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:05,560 I look around. I'm like, like, there's no way 961 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:06,960 we could have figured out how to do that. 962 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,840 You know, there's a lot of like. Well, you keep the stupid people 963 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:11,920 out of it. That's. 964 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,440 The James got James has people who think they can teleport 965 00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,440 coming in. You're going to tell me that guy 966 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,760 built the pyramids like there's a million of them. 967 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,680 Like they built like this guy built the pyramids. 968 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,480 Well, that's why we think it. That's not the guy you put on 969 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:31,160 the Pyramid project shovels the donkey shit or the camel shit. 970 00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:33,920 He could. He could barely handle the lunch 971 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,640 order for the pyramid guy. I mean, it's just, you know what 972 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,080 I mean? It's just like you don't know 973 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,360 what. That's why we always think the 974 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,760 worst of us, John. We got teleporter over. 975 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:47,560 There, Yeah, No, according to his ability, that's the key. 976 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,840 James, this is this was super fun. 977 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,440 I think people, you know, it's good, it, it's a good for us. 978 00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,600 It's a good balance of things. And I always like getting it 979 00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:01,480 outside in a different perspective on, you know, what's 980 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:02,760 happening. And it's good to keep it 981 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,080 grounded, you know, and, and as we move forward and sort of 982 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,560 explore this, and I mean, dude, we talked to everybody. 983 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,520 We talked to parapsychologists and mediums and witches and 984 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,520 other ghost hunters and skeptics and we like to hear it. 985 01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,760 It's a fun. It's a fun world of. 986 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,120 You know, I guess, you know this parascience, right? 987 01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,960 I mean, it's, we all like to think we, we've got a handle on 988 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,760 it, but it's I, I find it really fascinating. 989 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,520 It's, it's interesting and that's why all these shows are 990 01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,440 on and, and movies and TV shows over the decades. 991 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:42,640 I mean, people are interested in this stuff and, you know, let's, 992 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,840 let's give them another side of it to think about. 993 01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,680 That's our our approach. So James, you got anything 994 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,080 coming up or you want to you want to promote, you know you 995 01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,600 want to promote, you want us to tell plug people like which? 996 01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:58,240 Yeah, the bands got 500500K waiting to get fucking away, 997 01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,320 yeah. Yeah, start with that. 998 01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:09,440 Go to the CFII, g.org and the $500,000 challenge. 999 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,200 If you think you have superpowers, come and take our 1000 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,480 money and good luck to you. You're going to need it. 1001 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:26,960 Also, our so our Skepta Lab is our web series where we take one 1002 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:31,400 belief and debunk it per this is actually is devoted to 1003 01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,880 specifically the bunking things that we've worked on for years. 1004 01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,000 Check it out at skeptalab.tv. They have a great guest. 1005 01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,880 On there. Yeah, yeah, there's like, yeah, 1006 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:46,000 Walsh was our good friend Matt Walsh was on there and Andy 1007 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,880 Richter was on there. Jim O'Hare, Julia Sweeney. 1008 01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,000 It's it's a lot of fun and informative. 1009 01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:57,160 And then finally, if you want to go crazy and. 1010 01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:03,320 And come to our 50th anniversary party, we're going to have a 1011 01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:09,840 conference in beautiful downtown Buffalo, NY in June 11th to the 1012 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:14,920 14th, and it'll be June so much. But wait, hold on a second. 1013 01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,080 I think let's let's talk. You want to talk about 1014 01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:19,760 something, but isn't Buffalo, it's one of. 1015 01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,280 The horrible places. I went to listen. 1016 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,200 I went to school in Syracuse and the it's. 1017 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:30,520 Beautiful in this in this was. Just no, dude, it's got two 1018 01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:37,320 seasons, humid and freezing and it's just it's, you know, 1019 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,600 upstate and I mean, it's I listen, God love Buffalo. 1020 01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:45,000 I guess I feel sorry for, I mean, why would you of all the 1021 01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:46,240 dude? You live out here. 1022 01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:48,280 Well, I Are you going to Buffalo? 1023 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:50,520 No. Our headquarters is in Amherst, 1024 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,480 which is suburban Buffalo, so that's why it's there. 1025 01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,200 And, and Buffalo in June is great. 1026 01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,760 The lake is right there. There's a lot of cool 1027 01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:04,720 neighborhoods and it's it's a town on the comeback, you know, 1028 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,160 do you want to be driving your car there in February? 1029 01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,160 Probably not, but it's in June so don't worry about it. 1030 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:14,520 Well, that, I mean, we'll definitely promote it. 1031 01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:15,320 I mean, it's fun. Yeah. 1032 01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,040 Sorry, Buffalo. It's like you're. 1033 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,000 Listen, what do you mean? You should all over to Buffalo, 1034 01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,600 something we did. No, they're great. 1035 01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,640 No, no, I I always make, we always make fun of Pennsylvania. 1036 01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,120 It's the only state we laugh at here. 1037 01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:32,600 We just. Hey, James, listen, this has 1038 01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:34,680 been great, man. This has been great. 1039 01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,200 Thank you so much for taking this. 1040 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:37,800 It really is. James, I really appreciate your 1041 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:39,360 time. Yeah, this is super fun. 1042 01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:44,480 I hope you have fun. Yeah, thanks for having me on. 1043 01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:46,880 It's been great fun chatting with you guys. 1044 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,440 And, you know, if something comes up that's a little weird 1045 01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:55,360 and you want to set a skeptical scientific eyes on it, give me a 1046 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,560 call again. And tell me if somebody ever 1047 01:03:57,600 --> 01:03:58,560 teleports for. Real. 1048 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't hold your breath. 1049 01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:05,240 Don't. Hold your breath then. 1050 01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:11,040 If you want to invest in the 500 K, your money's safe would be. 1051 01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:14,280 Will do man. Thanks, James. 1052 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:16,080 Awesome, James. Thank you man. 1053 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,000 Well, that's it for another episode of Splintered Spirits. 1054 01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:22,840 Be sure to like, share, and subscribe to our YouTube 1055 01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,120 channel, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1056 01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:28,480 Until next time, stay curious.