Those workers who were more exposed to the process of dying
compared to death after death, dead bodies, there became kind
of a dichotomy between them where when it comes to having
paranormal experience, want to take a guess which one has it
more? Hey everybody, do us a quick
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It'll help us keep getting great guests and make it so you don't
miss the next episode. Now on with the show.
Welcome to Splintered Spirits, the podcast hosted by me, Gary,
and my nephew John Santa from Santa Paranormal, where we ask
the question, what are spirits? This week, we're joined by
someone who sits at the crossroads of psychology,
mortality, and the paranormal. Kelly Curtis is an American
parapsychologist and PhD candidate at Manchester
Metropolitan University and a key member of Paranormal Rescue
in the UKA team dedicated to investigating and resolving
hauntings with compassion and scientific care, Kelly's work
zeroes in on one of life's greatest mysteries, how our
experiences with death shape what we believe about the
afterlife and the paranormal. She's been collecting data from
people who live and work closely with death care workers, Hospice
staff, first responders, just to name a few, to understand how
that exposure changes our sense of what's possible beyond this
life. With more than two decades of
paranormal investigation behind her, Kelly blends field
experience with psychological insight, offering a grounded yet
deeply human look at how death might not just end a story, but
open the door to something more. It's Kelly's fearless curiosity
and extensive research about mortality driving her to earn
her PhD and the fitting nickname, Doctor Death.
Let's jump into the conversation.
Kelly, welcome. Thank you for being on
Splintered Spirits. My pleasure.
Kelly, where are you? Where?
Where does this podcast find you today?
I am living in Manchester, England, so that's where I'm
calling from. How long have you been there?
Over 4 years at this point. Are you there?
I mean, do you live there or are you there for just just
schooling or teaching? Well, I yeah, that's what
brought me here, was to get my PhD doing parapsychological
research. But I've fallen in love with the
area, so I don't plan on on leaving.
So I'm. I'm here now.
Got it. Where are you from in the
States? Originally in the middle of
nowhere in Illinois. Oh, middle of a cornfield in
Illinois. OK, now then tell us, tell us
the the original journey here for you of getting involved in
the paranormal that took you to Manchester.
What was that thing? What was that one thing that
you're like, I have to go? Well, I mean, I'm sure as many
of these stories start, it started in childhood.
So it's hard to pinpoint the one thing.
But I've been interested in the paranormal since I was a little
girl. I was that creepy little girl
going to her neighbors houses, knocking on the door and asking
can I check out the ghosts in your house?
And I remember multiple times my neighbors like just slowly
closing the door on me completely freaked out.
So it started way back then. I was always interested in the
paranormal, in the unexplained finding like those threads of
truth, even as a kid. So I would like find dead
relatives in the cemetery of these people in at my neighbors
and then go into the library of the days of micro fish and
searching for their obituaries even as a little kid.
So it's always been there. Now what did your parents did
They try, Did your parents try to say, listen, let's get you,
let's get this kid to Disneyland quickly?
There's something, no? They were very encouraging,
particularly my mother, never shut it down, never discouraged
it. My mother's also very into the
paranormal, so it was something we bonded over, frankly.
I even remember there was a time where my mother was telling one
of her friends some of my ghost stories, and I remember seeing
the look on my mother's friend's face.
And that was the moment I realized like, oh, oh, this is
not something people do like, right.
That had that like light bulb moment.
Yeah, this is not just like, oh, people do this.
So, but I mean like you grow up and life happens.
I mean, you went, did you go to like high school in Illinois?
I'm always fascinated by this part because there is a, there
is a moment of choice where it's like, you know, I am going from
being interested and loving horror, Stephen King cemeteries
and all that stuff too. I am going to make a living and
study. This is my choice.
Was there any event that happened or something you saw or
had seen and said? This is I have to I need to know
answers to these questions. I saw many things as a kid and I
think this is what really tipped me over.
And like a little bit of my back story, I was, I had a traumatic
birth, so I almost died being born.
So I think, you know, in a way it kind of left a window open
for me. So I feel like I've been a
little bit of a beacon for paranormal activities since I
was a child. So I've had so many experiences.
And it was, that's also one of the, with that light bulb
moment. I realized like, oh, people
don't have these experiences either.
Like it's supposed to be scary, even though it was never scary
for me. It was just normal to like, Oh
yeah, there's a ghost over there.
Like, cool. Now what did you see it?
Did you see it? What?
Which? Which Claire, are you?
Are are you? All the Claires, frankly pretty
much all of them, I would see things, hear things, like even
as a little toddler, I would tell my mother about the ghosts
that would visit me at night and things like that.
So always there, seeing, hearing, feeling, sensing,
knowing. So Kelly, for beyond for for
you, it's beyond just being a a scientist and an investigator.
You are an intuitive. You believe you.
Right. Yeah.
OK, Absolutely. I, I mean, and I've worked in
that neck of the woods previously professionally
reading cards, doing intuitive coaching with people, helping
people bring out their intuition and things like that.
But I did really want to go down more of a scientific Rd.
eventually. I, I did my undergrad in
psychology. I was really interested in just
the way people think, what makes people tick.
And then I went on to do my master's in mental health
because there's also an overlap there.
A lot of people who have these experiences get labeled, oh,
you're just mentally ill, You're hallucinating.
And I think that was also a fuel for me to go down the mental
health Rd. as well. Like I wanted to just understand
where that line in the sand is. What is healthy versus like not
healthy? What is like people's reality
versus their non reality? And how does that research, what
is that research? What's how do I want to ask is
what is in that research? How did you go about doing this
then in, in terms of discovering and what, what, what does it
lead you to believe here when you start?
Is it just I got to just meet and interview and interview and
interview and interview and gather data and what have you of
people with experiences or people without experiences?
What what what's the yeah, what's the line for you?
How does? That, well, I think it started
to kind of formally come into play.
I lived in Austin, TX for most of my adult life.
I was there for about 15 years and I joined a professional
paranormal investigation team there.
So we did all sorts of investigations, like private
homes, people with children who are seeing things, and I was
really able to step in and like let those kids feel heard and
believed, which was really a big deal.
So it was just really getting into a team that started me
really being able to do identify as far as like paranormal
experiences go. I'm seeing where this line and
this was after I had my master's in mental health.
So I was really able to just help distinguish like using that
toolbox that I had from that part of my education to
understand like this person is with it.
They know what they're talking about.
Like they, they believe what they're saying compared to the
people who would report that sometimes it is just
instinctual. You're like, no, sorry.
Like what you're experiencing is I think you need to go talk to
somebody about it and get an evaluation, which is a hard
conversation to have, but sometimes it's necessary.
So you know that working on that team for a long time really
helps me start to distinguish the difference.
Kelly, can you can you point to, can you point to a particular
specific story where you heard the store where you heard them
tell you what happened and you were sort of at first
questioning it, but then you then it became maybe it's
something more than in their mind.
Yeah, that actually has happened here also.
While I've been in England, I've been part of a a paranormal
investigation team called Paranormal Rescue.
Right. We've we've interviewed Brian.
Brian yes, Brian's a very close friend and colleague of mine and
we got an inquiry on a case about a woman.
She lives in one of the islands in very, very N Scotland, very
isolated location, not easy for us to get to.
And because of my background, I'm definitely a go to on the
team to talk to these people who are submitting requests for an
investigation and just feel it out.
I have actually like developed what's been deemed the Curtis
scale. So it's like basically a
checklist of, you know, is this credible or not?
Is this worth our resources as a team to go and investigate and
you know the the claims this woman was claiming?
I don't know how explicit I can be here, but.
Feel free. Feel free.
She was, she was making incubus claims being sexually violated
in her sleep by a spirit. And she's an older woman and I,
you know, I'm going into my knowledge and I'm like, OK, it's
dementia sitting like getting in here.
Like this is not completely unheard of.
But I just like just from the submission e-mail inquiry, I was
like, I don't know about this. And my job's to give her a call.
Let me call this woman up and talk with her.
And she at the end of that call, I was like, she's legit.
Because not like a lot of it has to do with corroboration.
Can other people corroborate what you're saying?
Have they had experiences? Have they seen things?
Have they have people heard things?
And she's like, yeah, my daughter has seen this happen.
And her daughter was able to verify, yes, like this is what
happened. And when once that line gets
crossed where other people are sharing experiences, my trust in
the story, my my ability to really lean into like, OK, this
is happening goes up, goes up a whole lot.
So that was one that really turned me on a dime effort.
I was like, OK, yeah, old woman. Like, sure.
And, you know, and not to sound cars crass, but, you know,
sometimes people just want attention and sometimes people
are mistaken and have other mental health things going on
that can explain what's happening.
And it's not necessarily the paranormal.
And in this case that we left that conversation like, we're
going to get you some help. And, and we did.
We got her some help and apparently things are fine now.
So win, win all around. Yeah.
How how many cases do you turn down?
Frequently, yeah. Honestly, we turn down more than
we accept and you know, I I don't know why, like I couldn't
tell you next, like pinpoint why that is.
I think a lot of the times it, it's falling into that like I
just think you're maybe not so credible.
And if you know, we're in England, we get, we get a lot of
requests globally, frankly, at this point.
And so, you know, packing up our bags and flying to a different
country is not so easy. So it really has to be tipping
the scales quite a bit for us to be able to to do some of these
cases. Kelly, how do you separate and
and do you separate your Claire abilities eclairs from the
scientific aspect? When?
When evaluating, you know the cases.
Do you use your clear abilities while evaluating these cases?
Or do you separate it and then use the abilities afterwards?
What's the process like for that?
Yeah, it's hard to turn them off entirely, right?
Like, even if I was to intentionally try to like during
this conversation, I am just going to tune out my into it's,
it creeps through its nature, but I really do try to take a
more scientific approach. This is why we really have
embraced this Curtis scale that I developed because it's black
and white. It's about the types of
experiences people are have have experiencing.
How often is it happening in different locations?
Do you have other people who can verify these things are
happening? Like have you had a mental
health check? Like and then we even go into
things like where locationally is this happening?
Are there Ley lines? Is there electromagnetic fields
around? Like sometimes people will live
next to an explainable, like something giving off EMF and
you're like, OK, that can actually fuel paranormal
activity. So maybe there's something going
on here. So I like to try to leave my
internal judgments out of the picture when when talking to
people about it and really just try to hear them and, and
breakdown what it is that they're telling me, ask them
some clarifying questions and kind of go from there.
But I would be lying if I said sometimes you just don't have a
gut feeling about whether someone is is believable or they
like I am telling you, this is what happened to me.
Was there ever any contradiction or or or fight between the two?
Between the the the Curtis scale and the and the the clear
abilities. No, no, no.
And I, I wonder a little bit if at this point in my life, having
having done like all my PhD research, like I can't argue
with what's happening in black and white sometimes, like when
it's there on paper, even if my gut's kind of like, but on paper
it's like clear, like, this is an experience we need to go
investigate, so be it. And also on the other way
around, like I guess sometimes my intuition might tip me a
little into the like, let's I believe this person, even though
it's not necessarily like so high on the Curtis scale
perhaps. But in that case, it's also
about resources. If somebody has a report of a
single phenomenal experience, is a single phenomenal experience
worth gathering up our team, our resources, our time, our energy
to go investigate? Because if it's not happening
all the time, I might still believe you and think you're
very credible and like, yes, this is like impactful.
Is is A11 and done experience worth worth our time?
And you know not that our time is?
That makes sense. What you're talking about your
research that you that you went through and now you you've done
your doctoral research explores how exposure to death impacts
belief in the afterlife. Is that do I have that correct?
Right. That's it in a nutshell, yeah.
OK, So can you, can you walk us through that connection?
What, how did you decide on this?
And then what is the Yeah, what connection?
What have is it? What connections have you made
and what are those stories? So again, growing up, my mother
was a flight medic, so she was the paramedic on the helicopter
going to the worst of the worst accidents, medical scenes, all
of that. And being a paranormal believer
herself, she loved to tell me about things that she would
experience or see at the time of people dying.
It was very interesting to her. And what what made it even more
interesting to me was that she would share that like the whole
team would leave the same experience, having very
different interpretations of what they just experienced.
Like my mother would be like, oh, it was the soul leaving the
body and we could smell it and see it.
And then somebody else would say, oh, no, it's just slightly
cold out. And, you know, it's just body
heat. And like, like, everybody on the
team would walk away with a different interpretation of the
same sort of phenomenal event surrounding death.
And it always stuck with me. And so, you know, back in the
pandemic days, we were all cooped up at questioning and
questioning our life choices and what do we really want to do
with ourselves? That was really a moment for me.
I was like, I, I really want to explore this for real.
I really want to to put like my money, where my mouth is, where
my interests are. So that's when I entered this
PhD program. And what I've really uncovered
from this is First off, not a lot of people research this,
surprisingly. I thought I would be adding to
kind of a library of research, but it's really under
researched. Particularly when it has to do
with professionals, people who work around death or dying and
they see it all day, every day. And it's like just kind of this
revolving door of death. People aren't looking at at
their interpretations of what they experienced.
Are you talking like just sorry to interrupt you, but I just
want to make sure I understand what you're talking about.
You're interviewing people who like work in Hospice care,
emergency first responders, death doulas, people like this,
like like these. This is not not necessarily the
individual who had a near death experience.
Is that right? So you're talking about the
people around death, not someone who's had the a death
experience. Is that the difference?
OK, yes, so and even people post death, some morticians,
embalmers, right? They were sort of the bulk of my
interest. Now I had to also compare that
with others. Like to be fully research
minded, I I can look at a group in isolation, but I can get more
information if I compare them to other groups.
So I compared people who have that type of on the job exposure
to people who have had loved ones who have died to people who
have had those types of experiences themselves, near
death experiences, terminal illness, diagnosis, things like
that. It takes a certain it's correct
me if I'm right and I'm sure you're going to get there, but I
just have to it does take a certain mindset of an individual
to be working in like the like a nurse who is in the child
intensive care unit or. Oh yeah.
You know, like those guys have to be.
I don't know how you can have a career in that and see children
pass away constantly, right? Like that's got to be.
I get chills thinking about how, you know, devastatingly
depressed that would make an individual right.
And it's like, well, versus and then you interview the nurse at
the, you know, the the the pediatric dental office.
It's probably a very different sort of vibe.
Different, right? But but what is it?
What did you learn? What did you learn about the
people who do that for a living like in in, how do they are
there? Common threads with them or?
Yeah, exactly, Exactly what is it?
Absolutely. Most of them here here's my good
starting point. Most of them will claim I don't
believe in the paranormal. I I don't know what you're
talking about as far as like weird things happening around
death, but there was this one time where I'm going to tell you
the most like unbelievable story, but I don't believe in
the paranormal and this was like a really interesting.
Wow, that's funny, that is. Funny conundrum I couldn't quite
figure out. Very.
Large threat. You know, it's a very.
Yeah. And what I have come to, what my
interpretation has become of this, because this was a very
common thing, was these individuals who work around
death so often see all sorts of weird, anomalous, unexplainable
things they do. They'll tell me that they do.
However, I think in their mind and their interpretation, it's
normal for these weird, unexplainable, anomalous things
to happen around them. Normalize it maybe so that they
can keep waking up in the morning.
Keep. Doing the thing right like how?
Because when you actually think about that, like if every day on
the job, you could almost guarantee something spooky was
going to happen. Like you'd have to learn how to
justify that in some way. And I that's exactly what I
think, is that they've normalized the paranormal and so
they don't claim they believe in the paranormal.
The brain does that in general, the brain, you know, from people
that get kidnapped and, and get, you know, in, you know, in
association with their kidnapper.
What is that, Stockholm syndrome?
Yeah. You know, like the brain does
that in general. It's a survival instinct, Yeah.
To to conform and to to to adjust what Kelly what is the so
all right So what was it? What was the first that so
that's a good these a surface thread, right?
They all sort of deny but but tell you they.
Saw that's a wild topic in itself.
That's like a whole, you know, we do a whole podcast just on
that topic. You know, Well, yeah.
And. But I love that.
I love this. That they, I, yeah, now I'm
getting my all of my questions. I have just went out the window
because it's like this is a little different.
Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's all right.
So they give you this surface, you know, here's who I am,
right? But but this but and then.
OK, so then tell me what's the, what's the next layer?
What was the next commonality thread you know in in that
world? For them.
So there became a clear different differentiation
between those workers who were more exposed to the process of
dying compared to death after death.
Dead bodies, there became kind of a dichotomy between them
where when it comes to having paranormal experience, want to
take a guess which one has it more?
I would say the perfect. I would assume the people around
does the living have it more than the people around that are
people that are already dead. That's what I thought and it's
the opposite. Interesting.
Yeah, when of all the morticians specifically that I got data
from, 100% of them were like, yes, I've seen a ghost in my
workplace. Weird sounds, noises like things
moving on their own at 100% across the board, hands down
morticians more so. And I, I, I want, I, I sat on
this for a little bit like, OK, because I would have expected
people in the process of dying, you have like all the like,
there's so many well recorded things that people go through
when they're dying that can be very anomalous.
Like like terminal lucidity, like they've been in a comatose
and all of a sudden they wake up and they're very aware and like
things that happen after comas and people knowing things
they're not supposed to know and reaching out and talking about
deadloved. I was like, certain people
around this comes dying. Exactly.
This comes secondhand, so I can't confirm this for myself,
but we, we interviewed somebody who had spoken to the LA
coroner's office, which is one of the busiest coroner's offices
in the country, you know, and about paranormal activity.
And they were like, no, we get none because.
And, and their philosophy. Now again, I don't know, I
didn't interview everybody individually, right.
This is second, this is hearsay, but sure, sure.
The the, the what the what the the logic for them or whoever he
spoke to and what he was telling us is because by the time that
meat sack gets here, the energy in them is gone and it's.
Like, you know. It's, it's just, there's nothing
here, right? And that's a, it's a pastor,
right? A coroner's office is a, is a
pass through to a mortician to a thing, right?
It starts there. The bodies come there first,
right? And you go, right, Right.
But it's, I thought that was interesting and that's why I
answered what I answered. But it's like, yeah, it's
fascinating. Yeah.
And that's what I, you know, and every pool of people you get
info from is going to be unique, right?
But I've wondered about this, like I'm wondering if it's about
like thinking about when we do paranormal investigations, we
usually do them at night and not because it's like spooky and
creepy at night. It's because the world gets
quieter at night and you're more able to notice the subtleties
around you and hear things and stuff because you don't have
traffic and noise and TV and like just the world going on
around you. And I've wondered if I, I
haven't like, superimpose myself into like a mortician's
workplace. But I imagine it's quiet,
quieter than hustling, bustling hospital or even like a Hospice
care facility. Like there's people, there's
movement, there's stuff. If you believe everything you
see in the movies, right, the odds are that they've got like,
Rock'n'roll playing and they're eating a sandwich over the dead.
Body. It's like it's the biggest, the
biggest trope in movies is right, like the coroner, the
autopsy guy is eating lunch while he's doing it.
It's like, you know? He's like over this body.
Right. The body's open.
They're like puts a sandwich down.
It's like it's like one of the biggest, you know what I mean?
They do that all the time where it's if so, if, if that's to be
believed. But I hear right.
Of course, when you close your eyes, it's like, you know, it's
like trying to find a parking space and you turn the radio
down if for some reason it's going to help you.
So it helps you focus in a certain way, Right?
Yeah. Well.
That's a different atmosphere between a, you know, a coroner's
office and a mortician, You know, it's a completely
different atmosphere, you know, but.
Absolutely. All right, so the morticians
experience tell you they experience something and I love
how where your mind goes. It's like, why would they
experience it more Because they're probably they're working
alone most of the likely and it's, you know, quiet all this
stuff. Yeah, softer environment.
Now, what about the people though, around the the dying,
not the dead? And what was the what was that
second layer of commonality? They, they, they were like a
mixed bag. They weren't so universal on
yes, I've had these experiences and I found it interesting
because I did both like paper questionnaires and interviews
because I knew some people would feel more comfortable being
anonymous on a piece of paper versus some people would feel
more comfortable talking to me about this.
And on paper, it was a very mixed bag, people saying, yeah,
I've had experiences, no, I haven't.
And I noticed what there seems to be a cumulative effect.
So people who work in that field but have also had multiple
deaths in their personal life, their ability to be open to
these ideas go up. People who are just like, I only
work around death and dying, but I don't like, I don't report any
personal life kind of exposure. They're like willingness to to
have these experiences is how I'm going to phrase it.
Is there a religious, is there a religious thread between people
with more experience versus less that are in this space?
I did of course ask about religion.
No is my answer. There is not the religious, the
non religious, different denominations of religions.
It didn't seem to have an impact on it.
However. What?
Was your pool, by the way, Sorry, I I just, I'm this is
fascinating to me. How how?
Yeah. What did you do for this study?
On paper it was close to 1000. Oh wow.
And that was a mix though, between people who did work and
didn't work in professions. Because I needed a comparison.
I interviewed 15 people and those people were strictly in
the. Profession around the dying or
the. Different, yes, and I tried to
interview a different profession.
Each person was different neck of the woods, but what I
discovered was like no matter what people's beliefs were,
their experiences strengthened it.
So this opens up another whole thread about like this is
something that's been pondered on in the psychological field
for a long time. Does your experiences influence
your beliefs? Or do your beliefs influence
your experiences? And it's both.
Same thing with nature and nurture in psychology.
The biggest argument is that nature and nurture.
Well, yeah, it's both. It's both.
And people's experiences
reinforce their beliefs, and their beliefs reinforce how they
interpret their experiences. That's kind of the bottom line
of it all. No matter what it what they
were, the staunch atheists were like seeing people die made me
more atheist. The people who were religious
were like seeing the dead made me more believe in this
religion. And it's interesting because all
their reasoning was very similar, but they came to these
different threads just based on the beliefs that they went into
these jobs with. Because I was expecting frankly,
like, and I can only imagine like if I, I could imagine being
changed if I chose to work with the dying, like you said, the
NICU, like, how could that not change you?
Right. So what what did you what did
you find in in that sense, though, Kelly with like their
personality? And what I mean by that is when
I look at certain professions, I, I, I don't think it's a job.
I think it's a vocation, right? Like if to be to be a
kindergarten teacher to me requires A mindset that to deal
with five year olds 8 hours, you know, like that requires.
Certain five year. Olds, you know, exactly.
But to be around it, you know, yeah, everyone here is smarter
than a kindergartner. But I could never in my life do
that, do that. That requires A mindset.
Same with in my belief what a the same in my belief, what a
police officer should be, right? There's a certain mindset that
you need to have to be patient and empathetic and strong and
brave. Like there's a it requires
something. Did you find, did you find
something like that in these people that that was also
common? I'm curious about that before we
get into like paranormal side of it, but like just that
sociological side of it. Social.
It certainly made them all more open minded.
So even though it's strengthened their own beliefs and persona,
that was very apparent who they were before.
Just like the volume got turned up on it.
However, they became much more open to other people's ideas,
more empathetic. And a lot of that happens how it
was described to me as like seeing, seeing loved ones was
more influential than the dying person.
So seeing the people grieving around the loved ones, seeing
the varied, like rituals surrounding death and what it
means to different types of people.
And like, I might think that's completely abnormal or strange.
And I've never seen people do that with somebody who's dying.
But seeing the impact it has on family and loved ones and like,
it opened them all up to see other people more clearly is the
best way I can describe it. So it like not only made them
see themselves more clearly, it didn't change them as far as
they're like makeup goes and their personality and their
beliefs and like, they're still holding the same religious tunes
that they were before. But I'm so much more open now to
the variety of the world around me.
Last thing too about the just the the study itself.
This is mostly all UK equal men women races.
UKUS Canada, yeah, so western, that's where most my contacts
are. So that path of least resistance
and ethically ethical approvals a whole thing when doing
research in this area. So I was I had to keep my scope
a little small but I would love to compare it with a variety of
countries backgrounds. It was still pretty white and
western in my research unfortunately.
So, So what then, based on this research, does death and the
paranormal? How?
How is that? What is that connection?
Is it then? Is it a apparition or, you know,
like what is the thing? You know what I'm saying?
Like what is that thing that they are calling paranormal when
as it relates to being around death?
Or is it just well, or it's a heightened, you know, more
noises, more of things flying across the room, more like
what's the what is the thing? I mean, that's just it.
That's brings me back to my first point.
They're not. They're telling me these really
strange stories. One story that was given to me.
I think this is a really interesting example.
I had to tell you so many stories now that I'm pausing on
this. One example was, oh, a woman who
worked in AER, she's a nurse. And she, once they had this
young boy come in who had had a terrible accident, was dying in
front of them. And thankfully they were able to
save this kid. This little kid is maybe like
6-8 years old little kid and great.
And you know, the nature of the ER, as I've learned to these
stories is it's like a, it's a rotating door.
You don't like these people don't stick around.
They're on to the next right? And like a month later, this
little boy and his mom walk back into the emergency room and
everybody's like, oh, my gosh. Like, it's good to see.
Like, they're kind of fawning over to this little kid to give
him a lot of attention and encouragement.
Like, it's so good to see you. And the mom was like, he needs
to talk to you all. And they were like, oh, OK, go
for it. And this kid points to the
doctor, like the main doctor that was of the crew who saved
him and said, you lost your little tool.
And the doctor's like, what? And the kid goes on to describe
this tool. And what's interesting is this
particular doctor would modify his equipment to do things he
wanted it to do. And this kid describes this tool
and he goes, you lost it in that room and it's underneath this
slight cabinet. And they were like, what?
And the kid takes them to the room and it's underneath this
cabinet. And this kid said like, when I
was like floating over my body, I saw you drop it and it fell
under there. And I mean, like, this is one of
those moments where you're like, you can't argue with a 7 year
old. Like you're, you're, he is
proving to you he knows exactly what he's talking about and why.
Like, there's no way he was practically dead in the moment.
How would he know this, right? And the nurse is like that type
of stuff happens all the time. And they and they, and then they
say that's not paranormal, right?
They got that. She absolutely was adamant that
is just how the body is when you die.
Like she normalized it and I was like, it's not my job to like
interject in these interviews. It's just to gather information.
And I'm over here thinking like, you just told me one of these
most amazing stories. I'm going to tell other people
about this, right? You can't make this up.
This is like Primo paranormal type moment.
So Kelly, what is your conclusion with this right?
Like what did you gather from this that that does it?
Is that the Does being around death heightened paranormal?
Is there a Is there a connection between paranormal activity and
the moment of death? I 100% would say yes, but of
course that's a big, I'm a little biased.
I'm a little biased. I come as a, you know, a
skeptical believer, a conscientious believer, but
hearing story after story. And it's interesting because
regardless of how these people are interpreting it that are
telling me these stories, I, I don't know how else to explain
it other than spooky things, unexplainable anomalous things
happen around death. It's been well documented.
I mean, like those examples I shared earlier, like terminal
lucidity and people seeing their dead loved one, like we people
in history have been talking about these things.
So it's no surprise to me that those who work in these fields
are absolutely seeing and hearing and experiencing the
paranormal ABS. And normalizing it, which is.
And absolutely normalizing. I am worried, I'm not worried
about airing that when we air this episode that a bunch of
ghost hunters are going to start hanging out like, you know,
elderly homes and hospices and stuff like.
With their rampods. Their rampods.
Are out like we're going to get them, we're going to catch them.
Kelly, what do you think spirits are?
I mean. What are we dealing with?
I I go all over the place with this.
I mean, I think there's different things happening.
I don't think there's one explanation in some cases.
Yeah. I do think that the soul, if you
want to call, call it that, has exited our little meat badge
here and is moving around, particularly around the time of
death. Something happens right when we
die. I think that might be some of
it. I don't think that explains
everything that people experience.
I do think some of it might be, I mean interdimensional.
I think sometimes worlds collide and things pop in and out of our
existence here. That's not a soul from a body
like going woo, you know, it's it's dimensions colliding, but.
Do you say soul? Do you say soul from a religious
sense like it's this really this it's, you know, this
otherworldly heaven and hell God created, you know where there's
a thing or what do you think? Is there a It's OK if you do.
It's not a, it's not a, It's just.
No, I'm not religious. I'm a recovering Catholic.
So no, we're. Religious, we both are.
You're dealing with that. Yeah, I I do it for more.
About this. I know that is funny.
I think we're going to have to steal that one, John, for sure.
Recovering, yeah. Recovering.
Catholic. Yeah, that was.
That is a bad. That's a great.
That's really a great way to say it.
Yeah. Sorry that in a nutshell, but
I'm probably just from a spiritual point of view.
Like I'm like, well more likely to say the universe than heaven,
hell, like I don't have that type of thing.
I think there is a ghost in the machine happening here.
And even from a psychological point of view, like there's
something happening inside of us that our cells don't explain
alone. Like it, it just is.
And it goes even past the whole nature versus nurture question.
There's something else happening here.
And, and the question of like the moment of death, like
someone is living and then they're just a body, like some
something was in there, something was occupying that
space that is no longer occupying that space.
And even from like a quantum physics point of view, like that
energy, that something has to go somewhere.
It has something has to happen to it.
It doesn't just disappear. And so yeah, that's kind of how
I encompassed the soul, this sort of make up of our spiritual
essence, our our Claire's, our intuition, the things that are
happening between our cells more than the cells themself.
Kelly, did you? And something has to happen.
Did you sit by any bedsides during this research yourself
during. No, no.
But that would definitely be the next chapter of my research.
Yeah, I want to see this in action a little bit more.
Wait a minute. And it's just got real.
It's like all of a sudden, it's like Kelly's, like, I want to
see people die. I want to see.
It I want to see it. It's like the first, like, yeah.
And it's like they're not dying fast enough and she has to make
it happen for herself. And it's like, all of a sudden
we just uncovered a serial killer plot.
Yeah, but it's for science. Science.
It's for science. So, you know, you've been on
ghost hunts, Kelly, and and you know, yeah.
And for this, so many ghost hunters, right?
They prioritize tech with their data.
And you seem to emphasize more observation and reflection in
your data. How do those methods change what
you know, what you find? Have you added tech, any sort of
tech to your findings or what? When you're out there in these
things, what is that? I mean how?
Do you combine? Those our team has, our team
definitely has tech, but it's again, it's about the
corroboration if like we have, I don't claim to be the intuitive
person on the team. I'm more of the psychological
aspect of the team. That's really my wheelhouse.
Yes, I'm intuitive, However, that is not the hat I'm wearing
at our investigations. Our intuitive medium person, if
she is experiencing something and the equipment experiences
something and I see people react to something in a particular
way, it's it's the combined corroboration.
I am not one to just lean on tech.
Oh, there's an anomaly on this thermal camera.
OK, cool. What else was going on in this
environment? Did people see it?
Did people have an experience at the same time?
Did some someone who's a psychic sense something at the same
time? Then now we're cooking with gas.
That's when I'm really getting my juices flowing about
something. So it's like teamwork on on that
level for me for sure. Not just tech, not just
intuition. It's it's a team coming together
for sure. Are you even remotely afraid of
death based on all of this stuff?
No, never have been. No.
I mean, I was born dead is like how I like to claim it.
So I've been been there, done that.
Oh, my God. Yeah.
Kelly, this was really interesting.
I really love it. I don't.
The only other last question I have is that, is that a tattoo
right here on your neck? That is a bad ass tattoo.
What is going on? Is that a moth?
It's a moth, yeah, and boxes and.
You have an. Old chess piece.
Yeah, yeah, that's hardcore. That is hardcore.
And. And the moth, what is that?
The moth is isn't that a symbol for death?
Isn't that the? Yeah, it is.
Absolutely, yeah. Amazing.
So yeah, this is you've really, you really have.
You've made, you've committed. You made it your life's work
about it. I love it.
I love hearing from Look for us, our whole podcast is what our
spirit like. We, we, we love hearing the
different perspectives of what our spirits.
And I love the fact that you've done this research and it's
great to get to talk to a researcher and a
parapsychologist, a a true one who's out there asking these
questions and gathering data, you know, in this space.
And I find it funny how people really, despite having seen it,
deny it in a weird way but don't.
I shouldn't say denied because they tell you about it, they
just no don't. They're perfectly accepting,
they just interpreted it in an unexpected way.
Sure. This was truly great.
What, what's next for where would you like people to go for,
you know, can you drop you want to plug anything or drop any
links or books or what's what's next?
Books will be in my future. Right now I'm just finishing up
my PHDI have to actually defend it in a few weeks, so then I'll
officially be Doctor Death over here.
Oh, wow. Is that true?
Could you? Yeah.
Could you do that? Was that the name?
You say, yeah, I'm already plotting my social media handles
of. Course.
OK, sure. But yeah, Paranormal Rescue is a
really great home base for, for my stuff.
If you, if you're on the academic side of the world, you
can look up some of my papers. Just search my name in academic
libraries. Yeah.
Well, Kelly, listen, thank you so much for joining us.
Today. Thank you.
This was great. It was really interesting this
we don't we don't really talk about the moment of death that
often. We've had somebody talk about
their new year experience on here.
We have a you know, which was fascinating and I'd like to hear
more of those stories. But yeah, this is, you're
literally covering the the quote, UN quote bridge right
from one side to the other, which is whatever that other
side is or whatever, you know, whatever's happening.
But yeah, it's really fascinating those studies that
you're doing, and we look forward to reading and hearing
more about them as you as you progress.
Lovely. Thank you so much.
I appreciate you. Yeah.
Thank you. Great.
My pleasure. Well, that's it for another
episode of Splintered Spirits. Be sure to like, share, and
subscribe to our YouTube channel, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcasts. Until next time, stay curious.