1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,600 Those workers who were more exposed to the process of dying 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:12,640 compared to death after death, dead bodies, there became kind 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:18,280 of a dichotomy between them where when it comes to having 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,440 paranormal experience, want to take a guess which one has it 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:36,320 more? Hey everybody, do us a quick 6 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,080 favor and hit follow and smash that like or subscribe button 7 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,640 wherever you're listening right now. 8 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,200 It'll help us keep getting great guests and make it so you don't 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,960 miss the next episode. Now on with the show. 10 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,880 Welcome to Splintered Spirits, the podcast hosted by me, Gary, 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,480 and my nephew John Santa from Santa Paranormal, where we ask 12 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:56,520 the question, what are spirits? This week, we're joined by 13 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,760 someone who sits at the crossroads of psychology, 14 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,720 mortality, and the paranormal. Kelly Curtis is an American 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,840 parapsychologist and PhD candidate at Manchester 16 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,680 Metropolitan University and a key member of Paranormal Rescue 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,360 in the UKA team dedicated to investigating and resolving 18 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,840 hauntings with compassion and scientific care, Kelly's work 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,880 zeroes in on one of life's greatest mysteries, how our 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,480 experiences with death shape what we believe about the 21 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,440 afterlife and the paranormal. She's been collecting data from 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,560 people who live and work closely with death care workers, Hospice 23 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,920 staff, first responders, just to name a few, to understand how 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,520 that exposure changes our sense of what's possible beyond this 25 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,400 life. With more than two decades of 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,080 paranormal investigation behind her, Kelly blends field 27 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,840 experience with psychological insight, offering a grounded yet 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,800 deeply human look at how death might not just end a story, but 29 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,840 open the door to something more. It's Kelly's fearless curiosity 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,960 and extensive research about mortality driving her to earn 31 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,600 her PhD and the fitting nickname, Doctor Death. 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:02,960 Let's jump into the conversation. 33 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,680 Kelly, welcome. Thank you for being on 34 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,560 Splintered Spirits. My pleasure. 35 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:13,360 Kelly, where are you? Where? 36 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:14,880 Where does this podcast find you today? 37 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:21,400 I am living in Manchester, England, so that's where I'm 38 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,480 calling from. How long have you been there? 39 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:28,800 Over 4 years at this point. Are you there? 40 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,360 I mean, do you live there or are you there for just just 41 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,720 schooling or teaching? Well, I yeah, that's what 42 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,480 brought me here, was to get my PhD doing parapsychological 43 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:44,160 research. But I've fallen in love with the 44 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,840 area, so I don't plan on on leaving. 45 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,640 So I'm. I'm here now. 46 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:51,120 Got it. Where are you from in the 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,280 States? Originally in the middle of 48 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,040 nowhere in Illinois. Oh, middle of a cornfield in 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,200 Illinois. OK, now then tell us, tell us 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,880 the the original journey here for you of getting involved in 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,080 the paranormal that took you to Manchester. 52 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,520 What was that thing? What was that one thing that 53 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:18,920 you're like, I have to go? Well, I mean, I'm sure as many 54 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:21,800 of these stories start, it started in childhood. 55 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,840 So it's hard to pinpoint the one thing. 56 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,600 But I've been interested in the paranormal since I was a little 57 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,920 girl. I was that creepy little girl 58 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:35,480 going to her neighbors houses, knocking on the door and asking 59 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,480 can I check out the ghosts in your house? 60 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,880 And I remember multiple times my neighbors like just slowly 61 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,960 closing the door on me completely freaked out. 62 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,520 So it started way back then. I was always interested in the 63 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:56,840 paranormal, in the unexplained finding like those threads of 64 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,680 truth, even as a kid. So I would like find dead 65 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,160 relatives in the cemetery of these people in at my neighbors 66 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,320 and then go into the library of the days of micro fish and 67 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,120 searching for their obituaries even as a little kid. 68 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,600 So it's always been there. Now what did your parents did 69 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,480 They try, Did your parents try to say, listen, let's get you, 70 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,640 let's get this kid to Disneyland quickly? 71 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,000 There's something, no? They were very encouraging, 72 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,360 particularly my mother, never shut it down, never discouraged 73 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,160 it. My mother's also very into the 74 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,520 paranormal, so it was something we bonded over, frankly. 75 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,280 I even remember there was a time where my mother was telling one 76 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:49,200 of her friends some of my ghost stories, and I remember seeing 77 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,720 the look on my mother's friend's face. 78 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,320 And that was the moment I realized like, oh, oh, this is 79 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,160 not something people do like, right. 80 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,280 That had that like light bulb moment. 81 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,640 Yeah, this is not just like, oh, people do this. 82 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,600 So, but I mean like you grow up and life happens. 83 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,040 I mean, you went, did you go to like high school in Illinois? 84 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,680 I'm always fascinated by this part because there is a, there 85 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,600 is a moment of choice where it's like, you know, I am going from 86 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,240 being interested and loving horror, Stephen King cemeteries 87 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,400 and all that stuff too. I am going to make a living and 88 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:23,960 study. This is my choice. 89 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,560 Was there any event that happened or something you saw or 90 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,680 had seen and said? This is I have to I need to know 91 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:37,200 answers to these questions. I saw many things as a kid and I 92 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,320 think this is what really tipped me over. 93 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,840 And like a little bit of my back story, I was, I had a traumatic 94 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,680 birth, so I almost died being born. 95 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,000 So I think, you know, in a way it kind of left a window open 96 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,320 for me. So I feel like I've been a 97 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,480 little bit of a beacon for paranormal activities since I 98 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,080 was a child. So I've had so many experiences. 99 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,480 And it was, that's also one of the, with that light bulb 100 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,040 moment. I realized like, oh, people 101 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,920 don't have these experiences either. 102 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,040 Like it's supposed to be scary, even though it was never scary 103 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,200 for me. It was just normal to like, Oh 104 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:16,360 yeah, there's a ghost over there. 105 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,040 Like, cool. Now what did you see it? 106 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:20,840 Did you see it? What? 107 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:22,240 Which? Which Claire, are you? 108 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:26,880 Are are you? All the Claires, frankly pretty 109 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,560 much all of them, I would see things, hear things, like even 110 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,080 as a little toddler, I would tell my mother about the ghosts 111 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,040 that would visit me at night and things like that. 112 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,480 So always there, seeing, hearing, feeling, sensing, 113 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,080 knowing. So Kelly, for beyond for for 114 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,920 you, it's beyond just being a a scientist and an investigator. 115 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,520 You are an intuitive. You believe you. 116 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:50,280 Right. Yeah. 117 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,720 OK, Absolutely. I, I mean, and I've worked in 118 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,360 that neck of the woods previously professionally 119 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,960 reading cards, doing intuitive coaching with people, helping 120 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,440 people bring out their intuition and things like that. 121 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,200 But I did really want to go down more of a scientific Rd. 122 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,160 eventually. I, I did my undergrad in 123 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,400 psychology. I was really interested in just 124 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,360 the way people think, what makes people tick. 125 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,480 And then I went on to do my master's in mental health 126 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,360 because there's also an overlap there. 127 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,400 A lot of people who have these experiences get labeled, oh, 128 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,760 you're just mentally ill, You're hallucinating. 129 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:40,400 And I think that was also a fuel for me to go down the mental 130 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,280 health Rd. as well. Like I wanted to just understand 131 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:49,720 where that line in the sand is. What is healthy versus like not 132 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,120 healthy? What is like people's reality 133 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,320 versus their non reality? And how does that research, what 134 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,560 is that research? What's how do I want to ask is 135 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,080 what is in that research? How did you go about doing this 136 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,680 then in, in terms of discovering and what, what, what does it 137 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,000 lead you to believe here when you start? 138 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,080 Is it just I got to just meet and interview and interview and 139 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,640 interview and interview and gather data and what have you of 140 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,320 people with experiences or people without experiences? 141 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,600 What what what's the yeah, what's the line for you? 142 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,840 How does? That, well, I think it started 143 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,200 to kind of formally come into play. 144 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,280 I lived in Austin, TX for most of my adult life. 145 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,520 I was there for about 15 years and I joined a professional 146 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,240 paranormal investigation team there. 147 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,520 So we did all sorts of investigations, like private 148 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,480 homes, people with children who are seeing things, and I was 149 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:50,400 really able to step in and like let those kids feel heard and 150 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,200 believed, which was really a big deal. 151 00:08:53,200 --> 00:09:02,240 So it was just really getting into a team that started me 152 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,000 really being able to do identify as far as like paranormal 153 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,480 experiences go. I'm seeing where this line and 154 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,320 this was after I had my master's in mental health. 155 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,040 So I was really able to just help distinguish like using that 156 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,640 toolbox that I had from that part of my education to 157 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,800 understand like this person is with it. 158 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,240 They know what they're talking about. 159 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:30,520 Like they, they believe what they're saying compared to the 160 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,440 people who would report that sometimes it is just 161 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,120 instinctual. You're like, no, sorry. 162 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,800 Like what you're experiencing is I think you need to go talk to 163 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,360 somebody about it and get an evaluation, which is a hard 164 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,120 conversation to have, but sometimes it's necessary. 165 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,960 So you know that working on that team for a long time really 166 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,680 helps me start to distinguish the difference. 167 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,760 Kelly, can you can you point to, can you point to a particular 168 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:04,320 specific story where you heard the store where you heard them 169 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,280 tell you what happened and you were sort of at first 170 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,720 questioning it, but then you then it became maybe it's 171 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,160 something more than in their mind. 172 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,480 Yeah, that actually has happened here also. 173 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:22,200 While I've been in England, I've been part of a a paranormal 174 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,520 investigation team called Paranormal Rescue. 175 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,160 Right. We've we've interviewed Brian. 176 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:32,000 Brian yes, Brian's a very close friend and colleague of mine and 177 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,400 we got an inquiry on a case about a woman. 178 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,080 She lives in one of the islands in very, very N Scotland, very 179 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,360 isolated location, not easy for us to get to. 180 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,600 And because of my background, I'm definitely a go to on the 181 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:58,120 team to talk to these people who are submitting requests for an 182 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,480 investigation and just feel it out. 183 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:07,600 I have actually like developed what's been deemed the Curtis 184 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,280 scale. So it's like basically a 185 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:15,240 checklist of, you know, is this credible or not? 186 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:21,000 Is this worth our resources as a team to go and investigate and 187 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,440 you know the the claims this woman was claiming? 188 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,040 I don't know how explicit I can be here, but. 189 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:31,720 Feel free. Feel free. 190 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:37,160 She was, she was making incubus claims being sexually violated 191 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,360 in her sleep by a spirit. And she's an older woman and I, 192 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:44,400 you know, I'm going into my knowledge and I'm like, OK, it's 193 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,240 dementia sitting like getting in here. 194 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,480 Like this is not completely unheard of. 195 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:59,720 But I just like just from the submission e-mail inquiry, I was 196 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:05,720 like, I don't know about this. And my job's to give her a call. 197 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,120 Let me call this woman up and talk with her. 198 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:14,440 And she at the end of that call, I was like, she's legit. 199 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:18,400 Because not like a lot of it has to do with corroboration. 200 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,120 Can other people corroborate what you're saying? 201 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,400 Have they had experiences? Have they seen things? 202 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:25,760 Have they have people heard things? 203 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,360 And she's like, yeah, my daughter has seen this happen. 204 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:33,160 And her daughter was able to verify, yes, like this is what 205 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,200 happened. And when once that line gets 206 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:42,040 crossed where other people are sharing experiences, my trust in 207 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,440 the story, my my ability to really lean into like, OK, this 208 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,480 is happening goes up, goes up a whole lot. 209 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,760 So that was one that really turned me on a dime effort. 210 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,360 I was like, OK, yeah, old woman. Like, sure. 211 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,960 And, you know, and not to sound cars crass, but, you know, 212 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,320 sometimes people just want attention and sometimes people 213 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,560 are mistaken and have other mental health things going on 214 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,640 that can explain what's happening. 215 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,400 And it's not necessarily the paranormal. 216 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,080 And in this case that we left that conversation like, we're 217 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,240 going to get you some help. And, and we did. 218 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,320 We got her some help and apparently things are fine now. 219 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:27,960 So win, win all around. Yeah. 220 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:29,840 How how many cases do you turn down? 221 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,720 Frequently, yeah. Honestly, we turn down more than 222 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:43,400 we accept and you know, I I don't know why, like I couldn't 223 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,680 tell you next, like pinpoint why that is. 224 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,040 I think a lot of the times it, it's falling into that like I 225 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,080 just think you're maybe not so credible. 226 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,880 And if you know, we're in England, we get, we get a lot of 227 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,800 requests globally, frankly, at this point. 228 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,560 And so, you know, packing up our bags and flying to a different 229 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:13,800 country is not so easy. So it really has to be tipping 230 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,160 the scales quite a bit for us to be able to to do some of these 231 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,320 cases. Kelly, how do you separate and 232 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:28,680 and do you separate your Claire abilities eclairs from the 233 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,080 scientific aspect? When? 234 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,440 When evaluating, you know the cases. 235 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,480 Do you use your clear abilities while evaluating these cases? 236 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,320 Or do you separate it and then use the abilities afterwards? 237 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:43,880 What's the process like for that? 238 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,280 Yeah, it's hard to turn them off entirely, right? 239 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,520 Like, even if I was to intentionally try to like during 240 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,040 this conversation, I am just going to tune out my into it's, 241 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:03,880 it creeps through its nature, but I really do try to take a 242 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,880 more scientific approach. This is why we really have 243 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,560 embraced this Curtis scale that I developed because it's black 244 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,800 and white. It's about the types of 245 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,040 experiences people are have have experiencing. 246 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,080 How often is it happening in different locations? 247 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,000 Do you have other people who can verify these things are 248 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,200 happening? Like have you had a mental 249 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,080 health check? Like and then we even go into 250 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,080 things like where locationally is this happening? 251 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,160 Are there Ley lines? Is there electromagnetic fields 252 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,280 around? Like sometimes people will live 253 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:51,120 next to an explainable, like something giving off EMF and 254 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,280 you're like, OK, that can actually fuel paranormal 255 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,840 activity. So maybe there's something going 256 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,080 on here. So I like to try to leave my 257 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,640 internal judgments out of the picture when when talking to 258 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:12,280 people about it and really just try to hear them and, and 259 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,840 breakdown what it is that they're telling me, ask them 260 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,880 some clarifying questions and kind of go from there. 261 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,200 But I would be lying if I said sometimes you just don't have a 262 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,880 gut feeling about whether someone is is believable or they 263 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,640 like I am telling you, this is what happened to me. 264 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,600 Was there ever any contradiction or or or fight between the two? 265 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,480 Between the the the Curtis scale and the and the the clear 266 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,400 abilities. No, no, no. 267 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,680 And I, I wonder a little bit if at this point in my life, having 268 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:53,160 having done like all my PhD research, like I can't argue 269 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,600 with what's happening in black and white sometimes, like when 270 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,320 it's there on paper, even if my gut's kind of like, but on paper 271 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,560 it's like clear, like, this is an experience we need to go 272 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,000 investigate, so be it. And also on the other way 273 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,839 around, like I guess sometimes my intuition might tip me a 274 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,240 little into the like, let's I believe this person, even though 275 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:24,079 it's not necessarily like so high on the Curtis scale 276 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:26,520 perhaps. But in that case, it's also 277 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,600 about resources. If somebody has a report of a 278 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,960 single phenomenal experience, is a single phenomenal experience 279 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,640 worth gathering up our team, our resources, our time, our energy 280 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,440 to go investigate? Because if it's not happening 281 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,280 all the time, I might still believe you and think you're 282 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,360 very credible and like, yes, this is like impactful. 283 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,840 Is is A11 and done experience worth worth our time? 284 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,640 And you know not that our time is? 285 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,560 That makes sense. What you're talking about your 286 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,000 research that you that you went through and now you you've done 287 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,160 your doctoral research explores how exposure to death impacts 288 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,400 belief in the afterlife. Is that do I have that correct? 289 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,040 Right. That's it in a nutshell, yeah. 290 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,800 OK, So can you, can you walk us through that connection? 291 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,360 What, how did you decide on this? 292 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,760 And then what is the Yeah, what connection? 293 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,920 What have is it? What connections have you made 294 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:30,320 and what are those stories? So again, growing up, my mother 295 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,960 was a flight medic, so she was the paramedic on the helicopter 296 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,840 going to the worst of the worst accidents, medical scenes, all 297 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:44,080 of that. And being a paranormal believer 298 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,080 herself, she loved to tell me about things that she would 299 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:53,400 experience or see at the time of people dying. 300 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:58,680 It was very interesting to her. And what what made it even more 301 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,720 interesting to me was that she would share that like the whole 302 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,320 team would leave the same experience, having very 303 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,840 different interpretations of what they just experienced. 304 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,920 Like my mother would be like, oh, it was the soul leaving the 305 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,200 body and we could smell it and see it. 306 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,840 And then somebody else would say, oh, no, it's just slightly 307 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,000 cold out. And, you know, it's just body 308 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,360 heat. And like, like, everybody on the 309 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,760 team would walk away with a different interpretation of the 310 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,920 same sort of phenomenal event surrounding death. 311 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,520 And it always stuck with me. And so, you know, back in the 312 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,560 pandemic days, we were all cooped up at questioning and 313 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,240 questioning our life choices and what do we really want to do 314 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,200 with ourselves? That was really a moment for me. 315 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,120 I was like, I, I really want to explore this for real. 316 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:57,000 I really want to to put like my money, where my mouth is, where 317 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:02,040 my interests are. So that's when I entered this 318 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:07,520 PhD program. And what I've really uncovered 319 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,280 from this is First off, not a lot of people research this, 320 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,360 surprisingly. I thought I would be adding to 321 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,120 kind of a library of research, but it's really under 322 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:22,400 researched. Particularly when it has to do 323 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,480 with professionals, people who work around death or dying and 324 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,080 they see it all day, every day. And it's like just kind of this 325 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:37,000 revolving door of death. People aren't looking at at 326 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,680 their interpretations of what they experienced. 327 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,960 Are you talking like just sorry to interrupt you, but I just 328 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,200 want to make sure I understand what you're talking about. 329 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,200 You're interviewing people who like work in Hospice care, 330 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,000 emergency first responders, death doulas, people like this, 331 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,320 like like these. This is not not necessarily the 332 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,480 individual who had a near death experience. 333 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:01,640 Is that right? So you're talking about the 334 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,040 people around death, not someone who's had the a death 335 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,120 experience. Is that the difference? 336 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:13,400 OK, yes, so and even people post death, some morticians, 337 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:22,040 embalmers, right? They were sort of the bulk of my 338 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,680 interest. Now I had to also compare that 339 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,640 with others. Like to be fully research 340 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,360 minded, I I can look at a group in isolation, but I can get more 341 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:38,200 information if I compare them to other groups. 342 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,960 So I compared people who have that type of on the job exposure 343 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,600 to people who have had loved ones who have died to people who 344 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,320 have had those types of experiences themselves, near 345 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,000 death experiences, terminal illness, diagnosis, things like 346 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,800 that. It takes a certain it's correct 347 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,520 me if I'm right and I'm sure you're going to get there, but I 348 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,480 just have to it does take a certain mindset of an individual 349 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,880 to be working in like the like a nurse who is in the child 350 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,760 intensive care unit or. Oh yeah. 351 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,840 You know, like those guys have to be. 352 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,760 I don't know how you can have a career in that and see children 353 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,360 pass away constantly, right? Like that's got to be. 354 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:23,760 I get chills thinking about how, you know, devastatingly 355 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,280 depressed that would make an individual right. 356 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,200 And it's like, well, versus and then you interview the nurse at 357 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,480 the, you know, the the the pediatric dental office. 358 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,160 It's probably a very different sort of vibe. 359 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,880 Different, right? But but what is it? 360 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:37,760 What did you learn? What did you learn about the 361 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,920 people who do that for a living like in in, how do they are 362 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,760 there? Common threads with them or? 363 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,040 Yeah, exactly, Exactly what is it? 364 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:51,600 Absolutely. Most of them here here's my good 365 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,920 starting point. Most of them will claim I don't 366 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,360 believe in the paranormal. I I don't know what you're 367 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,160 talking about as far as like weird things happening around 368 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,680 death, but there was this one time where I'm going to tell you 369 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:14,600 the most like unbelievable story, but I don't believe in 370 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,160 the paranormal and this was like a really interesting. 371 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,760 Wow, that's funny, that is. Funny conundrum I couldn't quite 372 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:23,880 figure out. Very. 373 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,040 Large threat. You know, it's a very. 374 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:32,120 Yeah. And what I have come to, what my 375 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:35,240 interpretation has become of this, because this was a very 376 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,360 common thing, was these individuals who work around 377 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:46,280 death so often see all sorts of weird, anomalous, unexplainable 378 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,200 things they do. They'll tell me that they do. 379 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,840 However, I think in their mind and their interpretation, it's 380 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:01,800 normal for these weird, unexplainable, anomalous things 381 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,440 to happen around them. Normalize it maybe so that they 382 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,800 can keep waking up in the morning. 383 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,880 Keep. Doing the thing right like how? 384 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,680 Because when you actually think about that, like if every day on 385 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,520 the job, you could almost guarantee something spooky was 386 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,520 going to happen. Like you'd have to learn how to 387 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,720 justify that in some way. And I that's exactly what I 388 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,440 think, is that they've normalized the paranormal and so 389 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,720 they don't claim they believe in the paranormal. 390 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,280 The brain does that in general, the brain, you know, from people 391 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,680 that get kidnapped and, and get, you know, in, you know, in 392 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,880 association with their kidnapper. 393 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,440 What is that, Stockholm syndrome? 394 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,200 Yeah. You know, like the brain does 395 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,000 that in general. It's a survival instinct, Yeah. 396 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,760 To to conform and to to to adjust what Kelly what is the so 397 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,120 all right So what was it? What was the first that so 398 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:57,880 that's a good these a surface thread, right? 399 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,440 They all sort of deny but but tell you they. 400 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,440 Saw that's a wild topic in itself. 401 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,800 That's like a whole, you know, we do a whole podcast just on 402 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,320 that topic. You know, Well, yeah. 403 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:08,480 And. But I love that. 404 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,520 I love this. That they, I, yeah, now I'm 405 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,120 getting my all of my questions. I have just went out the window 406 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:15,600 because it's like this is a little different. 407 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,480 Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's all right. 408 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,120 So they give you this surface, you know, here's who I am, 409 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,040 right? But but this but and then. 410 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,280 OK, so then tell me what's the, what's the next layer? 411 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,520 What was the next commonality thread you know in in that 412 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:31,360 world? For them. 413 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:39,680 So there became a clear different differentiation 414 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:46,440 between those workers who were more exposed to the process of 415 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,680 dying compared to death after death. 416 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:57,360 Dead bodies, there became kind of a dichotomy between them 417 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,640 where when it comes to having paranormal experience, want to 418 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,320 take a guess which one has it more? 419 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,880 I would say the perfect. I would assume the people around 420 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,880 does the living have it more than the people around that are 421 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,280 people that are already dead. That's what I thought and it's 422 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,200 the opposite. Interesting. 423 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:26,960 Yeah, when of all the morticians specifically that I got data 424 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,360 from, 100% of them were like, yes, I've seen a ghost in my 425 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,800 workplace. Weird sounds, noises like things 426 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,320 moving on their own at 100% across the board, hands down 427 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,680 morticians more so. And I, I, I want, I, I sat on 428 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,840 this for a little bit like, OK, because I would have expected 429 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,520 people in the process of dying, you have like all the like, 430 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:02,600 there's so many well recorded things that people go through 431 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,480 when they're dying that can be very anomalous. 432 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,360 Like like terminal lucidity, like they've been in a comatose 433 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:12,920 and all of a sudden they wake up and they're very aware and like 434 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,960 things that happen after comas and people knowing things 435 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,320 they're not supposed to know and reaching out and talking about 436 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,880 deadloved. I was like, certain people 437 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,600 around this comes dying. Exactly. 438 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,760 This comes secondhand, so I can't confirm this for myself, 439 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,520 but we, we interviewed somebody who had spoken to the LA 440 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,040 coroner's office, which is one of the busiest coroner's offices 441 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,520 in the country, you know, and about paranormal activity. 442 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,800 And they were like, no, we get none because. 443 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,000 And, and their philosophy. Now again, I don't know, I 444 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,600 didn't interview everybody individually, right. 445 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,760 This is second, this is hearsay, but sure, sure. 446 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,400 The the, the what the what the the logic for them or whoever he 447 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,720 spoke to and what he was telling us is because by the time that 448 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,360 meat sack gets here, the energy in them is gone and it's. 449 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,320 Like, you know. It's, it's just, there's nothing 450 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:57,160 here, right? And that's a, it's a pastor, 451 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,600 right? A coroner's office is a, is a 452 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,880 pass through to a mortician to a thing, right? 453 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,760 It starts there. The bodies come there first, 454 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,880 right? And you go, right, Right. 455 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,800 But it's, I thought that was interesting and that's why I 456 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,320 answered what I answered. But it's like, yeah, it's 457 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:11,120 fascinating. Yeah. 458 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,400 And that's what I, you know, and every pool of people you get 459 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,760 info from is going to be unique, right? 460 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,000 But I've wondered about this, like I'm wondering if it's about 461 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,400 like thinking about when we do paranormal investigations, we 462 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,520 usually do them at night and not because it's like spooky and 463 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,360 creepy at night. It's because the world gets 464 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:41,720 quieter at night and you're more able to notice the subtleties 465 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,680 around you and hear things and stuff because you don't have 466 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,720 traffic and noise and TV and like just the world going on 467 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,080 around you. And I've wondered if I, I 468 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:58,520 haven't like, superimpose myself into like a mortician's 469 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,160 workplace. But I imagine it's quiet, 470 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,520 quieter than hustling, bustling hospital or even like a Hospice 471 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,920 care facility. Like there's people, there's 472 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,280 movement, there's stuff. If you believe everything you 473 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,560 see in the movies, right, the odds are that they've got like, 474 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,000 Rock'n'roll playing and they're eating a sandwich over the dead. 475 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,040 Body. It's like it's the biggest, the 476 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,800 biggest trope in movies is right, like the coroner, the 477 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,280 autopsy guy is eating lunch while he's doing it. 478 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,960 It's like, you know? He's like over this body. 479 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,200 Right. The body's open. 480 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,760 They're like puts a sandwich down. 481 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,240 It's like it's like one of the biggest, you know what I mean? 482 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,720 They do that all the time where it's if so, if, if that's to be 483 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,320 believed. But I hear right. 484 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,800 Of course, when you close your eyes, it's like, you know, it's 485 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,840 like trying to find a parking space and you turn the radio 486 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,480 down if for some reason it's going to help you. 487 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,560 So it helps you focus in a certain way, Right? 488 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:47,600 Yeah. Well. 489 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,200 That's a different atmosphere between a, you know, a coroner's 490 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,240 office and a mortician, You know, it's a completely 491 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,640 different atmosphere, you know, but. 492 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,160 Absolutely. All right, so the morticians 493 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,760 experience tell you they experience something and I love 494 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,600 how where your mind goes. It's like, why would they 495 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,360 experience it more Because they're probably they're working 496 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,880 alone most of the likely and it's, you know, quiet all this 497 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,960 stuff. Yeah, softer environment. 498 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,040 Now, what about the people though, around the the dying, 499 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,040 not the dead? And what was the what was that 500 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:24,680 second layer of commonality? They, they, they were like a 501 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,160 mixed bag. They weren't so universal on 502 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,480 yes, I've had these experiences and I found it interesting 503 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,080 because I did both like paper questionnaires and interviews 504 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,760 because I knew some people would feel more comfortable being 505 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,600 anonymous on a piece of paper versus some people would feel 506 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,600 more comfortable talking to me about this. 507 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:54,240 And on paper, it was a very mixed bag, people saying, yeah, 508 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,360 I've had experiences, no, I haven't. 509 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:04,760 And I noticed what there seems to be a cumulative effect. 510 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:11,760 So people who work in that field but have also had multiple 511 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,080 deaths in their personal life, their ability to be open to 512 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:22,480 these ideas go up. People who are just like, I only 513 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,520 work around death and dying, but I don't like, I don't report any 514 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:35,440 personal life kind of exposure. They're like willingness to to 515 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,920 have these experiences is how I'm going to phrase it. 516 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,080 Is there a religious, is there a religious thread between people 517 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,920 with more experience versus less that are in this space? 518 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,600 I did of course ask about religion. 519 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,480 No is my answer. There is not the religious, the 520 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,280 non religious, different denominations of religions. 521 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,760 It didn't seem to have an impact on it. 522 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:05,840 However. What? 523 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,400 Was your pool, by the way, Sorry, I I just, I'm this is 524 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:09,840 fascinating to me. How how? 525 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,560 Yeah. What did you do for this study? 526 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,720 On paper it was close to 1000. Oh wow. 527 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,840 And that was a mix though, between people who did work and 528 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,040 didn't work in professions. Because I needed a comparison. 529 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,840 I interviewed 15 people and those people were strictly in 530 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,720 the. Profession around the dying or 531 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,280 the. Different, yes, and I tried to 532 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,360 interview a different profession. 533 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,480 Each person was different neck of the woods, but what I 534 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,160 discovered was like no matter what people's beliefs were, 535 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,240 their experiences strengthened it. 536 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:59,040 So this opens up another whole thread about like this is 537 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,600 something that's been pondered on in the psychological field 538 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,680 for a long time. Does your experiences influence 539 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,680 your beliefs? Or do your beliefs influence 540 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,560 your experiences? And it's both. 541 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,920 Same thing with nature and nurture in psychology. 542 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,440 The biggest argument is that nature and nurture. 543 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,800 Well, yeah, it's both. It's both. 544 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,400 It's both. And people's experiences 545 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,760 reinforce their beliefs, and their beliefs reinforce how they 546 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,920 interpret their experiences. That's kind of the bottom line 547 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,920 of it all. No matter what it what they 548 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,000 were, the staunch atheists were like seeing people die made me 549 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,480 more atheist. The people who were religious 550 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,160 were like seeing the dead made me more believe in this 551 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,320 religion. And it's interesting because all 552 00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:00,080 their reasoning was very similar, but they came to these 553 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:06,680 different threads just based on the beliefs that they went into 554 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,199 these jobs with. Because I was expecting frankly, 555 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:16,239 like, and I can only imagine like if I, I could imagine being 556 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:22,320 changed if I chose to work with the dying, like you said, the 557 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,199 NICU, like, how could that not change you? 558 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,199 Right. So what what did you what did 559 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,000 you find in in that sense, though, Kelly with like their 560 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,239 personality? And what I mean by that is when 561 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,800 I look at certain professions, I, I, I don't think it's a job. 562 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,400 I think it's a vocation, right? Like if to be to be a 563 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,639 kindergarten teacher to me requires A mindset that to deal 564 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,400 with five year olds 8 hours, you know, like that requires. 565 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,800 Certain five year. Olds, you know, exactly. 566 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,239 But to be around it, you know, yeah, everyone here is smarter 567 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,880 than a kindergartner. But I could never in my life do 568 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,760 that, do that. That requires A mindset. 569 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,040 Same with in my belief what a the same in my belief, what a 570 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,480 police officer should be, right? There's a certain mindset that 571 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,280 you need to have to be patient and empathetic and strong and 572 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,280 brave. Like there's a it requires 573 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,440 something. Did you find, did you find 574 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,120 something like that in these people that that was also 575 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,880 common? I'm curious about that before we 576 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,000 get into like paranormal side of it, but like just that 577 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,440 sociological side of it. Social. 578 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,480 It certainly made them all more open minded. 579 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:37,880 So even though it's strengthened their own beliefs and persona, 580 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,240 that was very apparent who they were before. 581 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,280 Just like the volume got turned up on it. 582 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,240 However, they became much more open to other people's ideas, 583 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:59,320 more empathetic. And a lot of that happens how it 584 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,760 was described to me as like seeing, seeing loved ones was 585 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,400 more influential than the dying person. 586 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,440 So seeing the people grieving around the loved ones, seeing 587 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,240 the varied, like rituals surrounding death and what it 588 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,440 means to different types of people. 589 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,880 And like, I might think that's completely abnormal or strange. 590 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,840 And I've never seen people do that with somebody who's dying. 591 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,920 But seeing the impact it has on family and loved ones and like, 592 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:38,920 it opened them all up to see other people more clearly is the 593 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,800 best way I can describe it. So it like not only made them 594 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,360 see themselves more clearly, it didn't change them as far as 595 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,440 they're like makeup goes and their personality and their 596 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,000 beliefs and like, they're still holding the same religious tunes 597 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,880 that they were before. But I'm so much more open now to 598 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,760 the variety of the world around me. 599 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,440 Last thing too about the just the the study itself. 600 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,120 This is mostly all UK equal men women races. 601 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:15,960 UKUS Canada, yeah, so western, that's where most my contacts 602 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,120 are. So that path of least resistance 603 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,960 and ethically ethical approvals a whole thing when doing 604 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,280 research in this area. So I was I had to keep my scope 605 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,800 a little small but I would love to compare it with a variety of 606 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,000 countries backgrounds. It was still pretty white and 607 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,520 western in my research unfortunately. 608 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:44,200 So, So what then, based on this research, does death and the 609 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,360 paranormal? How? 610 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,720 How is that? What is that connection? 611 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,880 Is it then? Is it a apparition or, you know, 612 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,840 like what is the thing? You know what I'm saying? 613 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,160 Like what is that thing that they are calling paranormal when 614 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,560 as it relates to being around death? 615 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,880 Or is it just well, or it's a heightened, you know, more 616 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,120 noises, more of things flying across the room, more like 617 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,680 what's the what is the thing? I mean, that's just it. 618 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,440 That's brings me back to my first point. 619 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,720 They're not. They're telling me these really 620 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:22,440 strange stories. One story that was given to me. 621 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,800 I think this is a really interesting example. 622 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,080 I had to tell you so many stories now that I'm pausing on 623 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,600 this. One example was, oh, a woman who 624 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:40,960 worked in AER, she's a nurse. And she, once they had this 625 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,280 young boy come in who had had a terrible accident, was dying in 626 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,360 front of them. And thankfully they were able to 627 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,560 save this kid. This little kid is maybe like 628 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:57,800 6-8 years old little kid and great. 629 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,440 And you know, the nature of the ER, as I've learned to these 630 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,720 stories is it's like a, it's a rotating door. 631 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:05,800 You don't like these people don't stick around. 632 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:13,640 They're on to the next right? And like a month later, this 633 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,880 little boy and his mom walk back into the emergency room and 634 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,320 everybody's like, oh, my gosh. Like, it's good to see. 635 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,880 Like, they're kind of fawning over to this little kid to give 636 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,440 him a lot of attention and encouragement. 637 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,960 Like, it's so good to see you. And the mom was like, he needs 638 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:35,960 to talk to you all. And they were like, oh, OK, go 639 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,960 for it. And this kid points to the 640 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,520 doctor, like the main doctor that was of the crew who saved 641 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:50,360 him and said, you lost your little tool. 642 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,360 And the doctor's like, what? And the kid goes on to describe 643 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,160 this tool. And what's interesting is this 644 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:04,080 particular doctor would modify his equipment to do things he 645 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:09,080 wanted it to do. And this kid describes this tool 646 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:15,960 and he goes, you lost it in that room and it's underneath this 647 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:21,000 slight cabinet. And they were like, what? 648 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,320 And the kid takes them to the room and it's underneath this 649 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,040 cabinet. And this kid said like, when I 650 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,240 was like floating over my body, I saw you drop it and it fell 651 00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:37,760 under there. And I mean, like, this is one of 652 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,760 those moments where you're like, you can't argue with a 7 year 653 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,680 old. Like you're, you're, he is 654 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,240 proving to you he knows exactly what he's talking about and why. 655 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,720 Like, there's no way he was practically dead in the moment. 656 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:59,720 How would he know this, right? And the nurse is like that type 657 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:04,440 of stuff happens all the time. And they and they, and then they 658 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,000 say that's not paranormal, right? 659 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,600 They got that. She absolutely was adamant that 660 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,640 is just how the body is when you die. 661 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,440 Like she normalized it and I was like, it's not my job to like 662 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,440 interject in these interviews. It's just to gather information. 663 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,520 And I'm over here thinking like, you just told me one of these 664 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,560 most amazing stories. I'm going to tell other people 665 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:32,040 about this, right? You can't make this up. 666 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,360 This is like Primo paranormal type moment. 667 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,000 So Kelly, what is your conclusion with this right? 668 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,760 Like what did you gather from this that that does it? 669 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,280 Is that the Does being around death heightened paranormal? 670 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,240 Is there a Is there a connection between paranormal activity and 671 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:56,880 the moment of death? I 100% would say yes, but of 672 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,000 course that's a big, I'm a little biased. 673 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,280 I'm a little biased. I come as a, you know, a 674 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,760 skeptical believer, a conscientious believer, but 675 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,520 hearing story after story. And it's interesting because 676 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,160 regardless of how these people are interpreting it that are 677 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:25,320 telling me these stories, I, I don't know how else to explain 678 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,840 it other than spooky things, unexplainable anomalous things 679 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,240 happen around death. It's been well documented. 680 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,440 I mean, like those examples I shared earlier, like terminal 681 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,240 lucidity and people seeing their dead loved one, like we people 682 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:41,880 in history have been talking about these things. 683 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,960 So it's no surprise to me that those who work in these fields 684 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,520 are absolutely seeing and hearing and experiencing the 685 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,680 paranormal ABS. And normalizing it, which is. 686 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,360 And absolutely normalizing. I am worried, I'm not worried 687 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,240 about airing that when we air this episode that a bunch of 688 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:04,640 ghost hunters are going to start hanging out like, you know, 689 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,400 elderly homes and hospices and stuff like. 690 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,800 With their rampods. Their rampods. 691 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,760 Are out like we're going to get them, we're going to catch them. 692 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,520 Kelly, what do you think spirits are? 693 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,520 I mean. What are we dealing with? 694 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,640 I I go all over the place with this. 695 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,520 I mean, I think there's different things happening. 696 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,120 I don't think there's one explanation in some cases. 697 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,480 Yeah. I do think that the soul, if you 698 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,320 want to call, call it that, has exited our little meat badge 699 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,920 here and is moving around, particularly around the time of 700 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,800 death. Something happens right when we 701 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,080 die. I think that might be some of 702 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,280 it. I don't think that explains 703 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,880 everything that people experience. 704 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:03,360 I do think some of it might be, I mean interdimensional. 705 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:09,080 I think sometimes worlds collide and things pop in and out of our 706 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,680 existence here. That's not a soul from a body 707 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:19,040 like going woo, you know, it's it's dimensions colliding, but. 708 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,640 Do you say soul? Do you say soul from a religious 709 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,400 sense like it's this really this it's, you know, this 710 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,800 otherworldly heaven and hell God created, you know where there's 711 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,600 a thing or what do you think? Is there a It's OK if you do. 712 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:34,840 It's not a, it's not a, It's just. 713 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,720 No, I'm not religious. I'm a recovering Catholic. 714 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,880 So no, we're. Religious, we both are. 715 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,200 You're dealing with that. Yeah, I I do it for more. 716 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,440 About this. I know that is funny. 717 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,880 I think we're going to have to steal that one, John, for sure. 718 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:53,840 Recovering, yeah. Recovering. 719 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,400 Catholic. Yeah, that was. 720 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,000 That is a bad. That's a great. 721 00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:58,880 That's really a great way to say it. 722 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,400 Yeah. Sorry that in a nutshell, but 723 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:07,360 I'm probably just from a spiritual point of view. 724 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:12,960 Like I'm like, well more likely to say the universe than heaven, 725 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,320 hell, like I don't have that type of thing. 726 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,120 I think there is a ghost in the machine happening here. 727 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,560 And even from a psychological point of view, like there's 728 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:30,200 something happening inside of us that our cells don't explain 729 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,640 alone. Like it, it just is. 730 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,480 And it goes even past the whole nature versus nurture question. 731 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,880 There's something else happening here. 732 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:44,080 And, and the question of like the moment of death, like 733 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:50,920 someone is living and then they're just a body, like some 734 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,480 something was in there, something was occupying that 735 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,960 space that is no longer occupying that space. 736 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,720 And even from like a quantum physics point of view, like that 737 00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:06,600 energy, that something has to go somewhere. 738 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,840 It has something has to happen to it. 739 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,840 It doesn't just disappear. And so yeah, that's kind of how 740 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,960 I encompassed the soul, this sort of make up of our spiritual 741 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,120 essence, our our Claire's, our intuition, the things that are 742 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,960 happening between our cells more than the cells themself. 743 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,480 Kelly, did you? And something has to happen. 744 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,720 Did you sit by any bedsides during this research yourself 745 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,720 during. No, no. 746 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:43,400 But that would definitely be the next chapter of my research. 747 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,960 Yeah, I want to see this in action a little bit more. 748 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,080 Wait a minute. And it's just got real. 749 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,080 It's like all of a sudden, it's like Kelly's, like, I want to 750 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,360 see people die. I want to see. 751 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,720 It I want to see it. It's like the first, like, yeah. 752 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,400 And it's like they're not dying fast enough and she has to make 753 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,800 it happen for herself. And it's like, all of a sudden 754 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,720 we just uncovered a serial killer plot. 755 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,960 Yeah, but it's for science. Science. 756 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,640 It's for science. So, you know, you've been on 757 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,920 ghost hunts, Kelly, and and you know, yeah. 758 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,760 And for this, so many ghost hunters, right? 759 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,080 They prioritize tech with their data. 760 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,160 And you seem to emphasize more observation and reflection in 761 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,280 your data. How do those methods change what 762 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,040 you know, what you find? Have you added tech, any sort of 763 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,280 tech to your findings or what? When you're out there in these 764 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,080 things, what is that? I mean how? 765 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,760 Do you combine? Those our team has, our team 766 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,720 definitely has tech, but it's again, it's about the 767 00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:40,720 corroboration if like we have, I don't claim to be the intuitive 768 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:44,840 person on the team. I'm more of the psychological 769 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,360 aspect of the team. That's really my wheelhouse. 770 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,880 Yes, I'm intuitive, However, that is not the hat I'm wearing 771 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:59,800 at our investigations. Our intuitive medium person, if 772 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:05,440 she is experiencing something and the equipment experiences 773 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:11,960 something and I see people react to something in a particular 774 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,640 way, it's it's the combined corroboration. 775 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,840 I am not one to just lean on tech. 776 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,760 Oh, there's an anomaly on this thermal camera. 777 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,720 OK, cool. What else was going on in this 778 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,400 environment? Did people see it? 779 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,720 Did people have an experience at the same time? 780 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:39,120 Did some someone who's a psychic sense something at the same 781 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,560 time? Then now we're cooking with gas. 782 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,600 That's when I'm really getting my juices flowing about 783 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:49,040 something. So it's like teamwork on on that 784 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,640 level for me for sure. Not just tech, not just 785 00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:56,400 intuition. It's it's a team coming together 786 00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,240 for sure. Are you even remotely afraid of 787 00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,000 death based on all of this stuff? 788 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,880 No, never have been. No. 789 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,480 I mean, I was born dead is like how I like to claim it. 790 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,400 So I've been been there, done that. 791 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,760 Oh, my God. Yeah. 792 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,960 Kelly, this was really interesting. 793 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,680 I really love it. I don't. 794 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,680 The only other last question I have is that, is that a tattoo 795 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,240 right here on your neck? That is a bad ass tattoo. 796 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,080 What is going on? Is that a moth? 797 00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,840 It's a moth, yeah, and boxes and. 798 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,960 You have an. Old chess piece. 799 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,000 Yeah, yeah, that's hardcore. That is hardcore. 800 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,320 And. And the moth, what is that? 801 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,560 The moth is isn't that a symbol for death? 802 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,360 Isn't that the? Yeah, it is. 803 00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:43,840 Absolutely, yeah. Amazing. 804 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,000 So yeah, this is you've really, you really have. 805 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,800 You've made, you've committed. You made it your life's work 806 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:48,560 about it. I love it. 807 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,440 I love hearing from Look for us, our whole podcast is what our 808 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:53,920 spirit like. We, we, we love hearing the 809 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,760 different perspectives of what our spirits. 810 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,760 And I love the fact that you've done this research and it's 811 00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,680 great to get to talk to a researcher and a 812 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:04,000 parapsychologist, a a true one who's out there asking these 813 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,840 questions and gathering data, you know, in this space. 814 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,640 And I find it funny how people really, despite having seen it, 815 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,760 deny it in a weird way but don't. 816 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,560 I shouldn't say denied because they tell you about it, they 817 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,240 just no don't. They're perfectly accepting, 818 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:24,000 they just interpreted it in an unexpected way. 819 00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:26,800 Sure. This was truly great. 820 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,760 What, what's next for where would you like people to go for, 821 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,360 you know, can you drop you want to plug anything or drop any 822 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,800 links or books or what's what's next? 823 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,080 Books will be in my future. Right now I'm just finishing up 824 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,480 my PHDI have to actually defend it in a few weeks, so then I'll 825 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,960 officially be Doctor Death over here. 826 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:47,480 Oh, wow. Is that true? 827 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:48,040 Could you? Yeah. 828 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,960 Could you do that? Was that the name? 829 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,680 You say, yeah, I'm already plotting my social media handles 830 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:54,320 of. Course. 831 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,560 OK, sure. But yeah, Paranormal Rescue is a 832 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:03,400 really great home base for, for my stuff. 833 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,840 If you, if you're on the academic side of the world, you 834 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,080 can look up some of my papers. Just search my name in academic 835 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,160 libraries. Yeah. 836 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,680 Well, Kelly, listen, thank you so much for joining us. 837 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:16,240 Today. Thank you. 838 00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:18,400 This was great. It was really interesting this 839 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,880 we don't we don't really talk about the moment of death that 840 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,080 often. We've had somebody talk about 841 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:25,600 their new year experience on here. 842 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,480 We have a you know, which was fascinating and I'd like to hear 843 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,520 more of those stories. But yeah, this is, you're 844 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,840 literally covering the the quote, UN quote bridge right 845 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,080 from one side to the other, which is whatever that other 846 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,120 side is or whatever, you know, whatever's happening. 847 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:42,800 But yeah, it's really fascinating those studies that 848 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,120 you're doing, and we look forward to reading and hearing 849 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:46,840 more about them as you as you progress. 850 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,120 Lovely. Thank you so much. 851 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:51,680 I appreciate you. Yeah. 852 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:53,040 Thank you. Great. 853 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,640 My pleasure. Well, that's it for another 854 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,720 episode of Splintered Spirits. Be sure to like, share, and 855 00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:03,920 subscribe to our YouTube channel, Spotify, or wherever 856 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,600 you get your podcasts. Until next time, stay curious.