1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:01,760
Not with me. 
John. 

2
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,720
Look at my phone. 
Well, look at my phone. 

3
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,360
Oh shit, can I pick it up? 
No, no. 

4
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,680
OK dude, that is wild. 
Have you ever picked that up? 

5
00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,000
Yeah, I told you I've had it. 
Before, yes, yeah, that's right.

6
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,360
They're asking what they're 
asking. 

7
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:23,440
What you can tell them it's up 
there. 

8
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,800
That just gave me chills so. 
Brian's mother passed away. 

9
00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:37,360
He's been getting phone calls 
from her and he just got one 

10
00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:43,240
now. 
What you just heard was the 

11
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,800
moment our friend Brian received
a phone call in March of 2025 

12
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,120
from his mother. 
His mother passed away in the 

13
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,200
winter of 2024. 
Wait until you hear the full 

14
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,800
message. 
Welcome to Splintered Spirits, a

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00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,080
podcast hosted by me, Gary and 
my nephew Johnny from Santa 

16
00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,040
Paranormal where we try to prove
his theory that ghosts are the 

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00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:02,520
fractured memories of the 
living. 

18
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,480
If you've been listening or if 
you follow John, you know he 

19
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,080
communicates with spirits using 
what many in the paranormal 

20
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,160
field consider to be 
controversial phone apps. 

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Spirits manipulate the device to
create speech from digital radio

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and or electromagnetic waves. 
But what if spirits didn't use 

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the app to talk to us? 
What if they simply dial us on 

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00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,600
the phone and leave a message? 
Our guest this week, Professor 

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Callum Cooper, author of 
Telephone Calls from the Dead, 

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walks us through this very 
specific type of electronic 

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voice phenomena, or EVP, and 
gives us some emotionally 

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poignant advice on how to 
approach a call from a loved one

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that's passed like Brian's did. 
Let's dive into the 

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conversation. 
John, how are you? 

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I'm. 
Good. 

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00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,760
How are you all? 
Right, All right man, so we've 

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got we've got a very. 
Powerful one. 

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Today. 
We've got a big episode today. 

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This is definitely, definitely 
hits close to home. 

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00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,480
We're going to get going. 
We're going to dive into this 

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conversation. 
And our guest today, he is one 

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00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:15,200
of the leading voices at the 
intersection of science and the 

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unexplained. 
Professor Callum Cooper is a 

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00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,040
chartered psychologist, a senior
lecturer at the University of 

41
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,280
Northampton, and an 
internationally recognized 

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author and researcher with 
advanced degrees in psychology, 

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education research methods. 
He has spent his career 

44
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exploring what happens when 
science meets subjects like 

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00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,600
death, bereavement, human 
consciousness, and yes, the 

46
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,320
paranormal. 
He sits on the council of the 

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00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,800
Society for Cyclical Research, 
serves as a scientific advisor 

48
00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,960
to both the Forever Family 
Foundation and the Windbridge 

49
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,680
Research Center, and has earned 
numerous awards for his 

50
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,160
contributions to skeptical 
activism and science 

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communication. 
His groundbreaking book, 

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00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:02,720
Telephone Calls from the Dead, 
which is this right here for our

53
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,320
fans, Telephone Calls from the 
dead. 

54
00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,680
And we'll put a link to this in 
our all of our BIOS for anyone 

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00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,040
out there listening. 
This book explores one of the 

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most fascinating frontiers in 
afterlife research, which is 

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unexpected calls from those no 
longer living. 

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And today, he's joining us to 
help make sense of one such call

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00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:29,360
that one of our friends to the 
to the pod and to John's socials

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00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,320
has received. 
So with that, we want to welcome

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00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:43,120
Professor Cal Cooper. 
Professor Cooper, how are you? 

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00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:44,840
Welcome. 
I don't know if you can hear 

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00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:45,800
that. 
I don't know if you can hear 

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00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,200
that intro. 
Could you hear us when we were 

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00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:47,960
talking? 
Or was it? 

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00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,000
Yeah, but flattered. 
I was blushing. 

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Thank you. 
Very much wonderful. 

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I'm glad. 
Thank you so much for being 

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00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,480
here. 
And I forgot I should add here, 

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00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,680
by the way, this is a super 
handsome gentleman. 

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It's like John, I feel like in 
the paranormal space. 

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00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,280
We are. 
We've got to up our game. 

73
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,120
Yeah, for real. 
All those list of 

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accomplishments, would you have 
expected to see someone so 

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00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:10,760
young? 
I would not. 

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00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,640
It's like it's, it's crazy. 
Just got you just got to keep 

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00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,720
battling on. 
If you want something, go get 

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00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,680
it. 
Fair enough, man. 

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That's it. 
So Kyle, listen, I'd like to 

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start everything off with on 
this podcast with with with a 

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00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,800
basic question here on 
Splendored Spirits. 

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00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,480
And it's this. 
What do you think spirits are 

83
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:38,800
and what happens when we die? 
Well, that's quite a big one, 

84
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,480
yeah. 
What are spirits? 

85
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,440
Well, well, people have believed
that there's this essence that 

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00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,320
may leave the human body at the 
point of death and survives on 

87
00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,840
in some way that we can either 
experience or interact with or 

88
00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:53,160
communicate with. 
And this is what people define 

89
00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,880
as spirits. 
And that's what it would be if 

90
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,760
it were to be an actual thing 
that we had, you know, concrete 

91
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,120
evidence for. 
It's an aspect of personality 

92
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,200
and consciousness leaving the 
body and surviving in some way. 

93
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:07,320
Do you? 
Believe. 

94
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,720
It I accept that there's good 
evidence for it. 

95
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,800
I'm a, I'm a scientist and this 
question has come up so much 

96
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,320
recently, I think because I've 
been dealing with it for a good 

97
00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,960
20 years now about do, do you 
actually believe in the things 

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00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,720
that you're, you're studying? 
Well, it's not about whether I 

99
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,640
believe or don't believe. 
I'm interested in the evidence. 

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00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,680
So I say, well, what if I was a 
midwife? 

101
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,720
What if I was into geography? 
What if I was into chemistry? 

102
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,520
Would really most people come to
me and say, do you actually 

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00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,480
believe in this kind of, you 
know, process of birthing like 

104
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,240
birthing pools? 
Do you believe in birthing pools

105
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,080
or do you believe in, you know, 
these kinds of rocks formations 

106
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,320
or well, it's about evidence for
it being good or evidence for 

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its existence and and so forth. 
So when it comes to 

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parapsychology, how good is the 
evidence for telepathy? 

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00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,520
People of course experience it 
all the time because they talk 

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about it. 
Whether it is actually that kind

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of process of mind to mind 
interaction or not, people can 

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00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,160
relate to that kind of 
experience the same as ghosts. 

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So how good is the evidence for 
it? 

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So my job as a psychologist is 
to look at what we already know 

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of psychology and what could 
explain it without jumping to an

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explanation we don't have a 
process for. 

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And then if that explanation 
doesn't apply, can we entertain 

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this idea that it's a new 
process and it might be a mind 

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to mind interaction and 
something might be leaving the 

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mind while we're living to gain 
information or even beyond 

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bodily death? 
So I'm all about how good is the

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evidence. 
I have no vested interest, as 

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much as that might sound weird. 
I'm fascinated by the topic. 

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But I'm all for the data either 
being explained away, which 

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would be great, or the data 
showing that something new is 

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there to be learned. 
Love it. 

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I love that answer, I really do.
And your work, you know, it 

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bridges science and 
spirituality, obviously, right? 

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When we're talking about how do 
your peers in academia respond 

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00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,000
to your research in 
parapsychology? 

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Well, all my peers at the 
University of Northampton 

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especially that they're all 
parapsychologists pretty much. 

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We, we've got a very large 
department within psychology. 

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I think there's probably 40 of 
us and, and some of those are 

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counselling psychologists and 
psychotherapists. 

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And we've got three main 
research departments within 

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00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,480
psychology dealing with 
counselling and positive 

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psychology and child and 
adolescent mental health. 

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00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,440
And then the other one is a 
group called EEKS, exceptional 

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00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,880
experiences and consciousness 
studies. 

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00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,560
So that's parapsychologists, 
transpersonal psychologists, 

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consciousness study researchers,
researchers, cognitive 

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00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,480
psychologists and 
neuroscientists. 

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00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,360
So 5 different domains all under
one roof, looking at unusual 

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00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,720
experiences. 
So every day I'm surrounded by 

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people doing the same thing as 
me. 

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00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,560
I'm just leading some things. 
I lead the third year module and

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I'm supervising a lot of 
doctorates in that area as well.

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00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,160
And even at the California 
Institute for Human Science, I'm

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Co director of parapsychology 
education with Doctor Jeffrey 

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00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,120
Mishlov. 
So in all of my kind of main 

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00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,320
work, I'm with 
parapsychologists. 

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So my peers are all for it and 
think, you know, we're doing 

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00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,640
ground breaking work here. 
Why is psychology like that? 

155
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,400
You know, Why is that the role 
that seems to be the closest to 

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00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,680
paranormal events? 
You know what I mean? 

157
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,440
Like, why? 
What is that role in that 

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00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:13,960
connection with those two 
things? 

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00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,640
Some would argue not. 
Like the weekend before last. 

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I was with Professor Bernard 
Carr, and he's one of the vice 

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00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,080
presidents of the Society for 
Psychical Research. 

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He was one of Professor Stephen 
Hawking's students, doctoral 

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00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,920
students, and naturally he's a 
physicist. 

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00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,360
So he believes that many of 
these experiences could have 

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something to do with multiverse 
and are actually more of an 

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00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:37,159
aspect of physics than they are 
of psychology. 

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But still, we're dealing with 
human experiences. 

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00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,679
You've got a human who has had 
an experience, who reports their

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00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,280
experiences. 
So you can't not deal with 

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00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,800
psychology in the mix. 
But is there experience due to 

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00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,280
misperception or new perceptions
we don't fully understand the 

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00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,880
processes for? 
Or are they just witnessing 

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aspects of physics that make it 
seem like they're having a 

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telepathic experience, a 
precognitive experience, or 

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00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,960
seeing, you know, visions of the
dead or sometimes visions of 

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00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,440
living people who are verified 
to have not been at those places

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at the time they were reported. 
They were elsewhere, like miles 

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00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,720
and miles away. 
So their physics has an 

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00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,320
interesting part to play. 
But the paranormal is approached

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00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:17,920
by a number of different 
disciplines. 

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00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,520
I've got colleagues here in the 
UK that have specialized in it 

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from the point of sociology, 
from anthropology, from the 

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00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,400
media, and especially how the 
media portray the day and the 

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kinds of shows that get put out 
there and how best to put 

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00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,720
programs together to actually 
give, you know, interesting 

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00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,720
portrayals. 
History, philosophy, theology, 

187
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,120
you name it. 
You can approach parapsychology 

188
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,120
from so many different angles. 
It's quite the tool really for 

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00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,240
kind of placing itself with 
other sciences and arts to 

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00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,520
actually explore why people 
embrace these experiences, find 

191
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them fascinating whether they 
believe in them or not, and 

192
00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,920
explore what they really mean to
us as human beings. 

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00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,880
John, I saw you light up when 
you said like multiverse 

194
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,760
dimensions. 
That's something you talk about 

195
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,280
like you don't know all the 
time. 

196
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,160
You believe in. 
All the time. 

197
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,000
So, you know, yeah, I don't, you
know, for John here, I, I think 

198
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,360
I told you so. 
John's my nephew and he's gotten

199
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,480
quite popular on TikTok over the
years for many, many years. 

200
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,240
He's doing other controversial 
things, which is like he uses 

201
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:26,760
spirit boxes and phone apps 
talking to spirits at grave 

202
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,280
sites, which many people have 
always said don't have spirits 

203
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,920
there. 
And we're familiar with how the,

204
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:35,520
you know, the, we know the 
spirit box thing is very 

205
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,640
controversial and people have 
their doubts and everything 

206
00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,200
else. 
And I've seen all the copycats. 

207
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,560
My fascination with John here is
that he always the responses he 

208
00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:47,320
gets is less about the words 
used, but the personality behind

209
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,440
the words used and the Q&A that 
he has going on there. 

210
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,200
And that's what I just find like
it's bananas, right, when he's 

211
00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,240
talking to spirits. 
And that's sort of this idea of 

212
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,760
talking to spirits. 
I think, you know, when I heard 

213
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,800
about your book, you know, 
telephone calls from the dead, 

214
00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:11,560
how, how did you get into that? 
Like what was your, what was the

215
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,760
for you? 
What was the catalyst that sort 

216
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:19,000
of led you down that path? 
I I think it was two or three 

217
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,080
things. 
One, I was reading books by I 

218
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,000
don't know if you can see him 
there. 

219
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,800
No, I've moved them. 
There's a you can see Eileen 

220
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,720
Garrett just there. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

221
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,640
But. 
Scott Rogo's over there as well.

222
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,160
So D Scott Rogo, I was reading 
books by him and Raymond Bayliss

223
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,400
when I was an undergraduate 
doing psychology at the 

224
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,320
University of Northampton and 
and Scott and Bayless, Scott 

225
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,680
Rogo and Rainbow Bayless had 
done forwards for each other's 

226
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:47,400
books now and then and I was 
just buying loads of their books

227
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,840
at the time on eBay and Amazon. 
They were going for next to 

228
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,280
nothing because this is before I
kind of re popularized what they

229
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,720
were doing. 
So I was finding them quite 

230
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,760
cheap because no one was reading
their material particularly. 

231
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,120
And I got one book out of the 
library called Apparitions and 

232
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,160
Survival of Bodily Death by 
Roman Bayless. 

233
00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,160
Read it from cover to cover 
while I was in the kitchen in 

234
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,800
the halls of residence and doing
my washing in the laundry room. 

235
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,920
And you know, you're waiting for
your clothes to tumble dry. 

236
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,040
And I was just captivating page 
after page. 

237
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,360
I thought this is really well 
written. 

238
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,840
It's really accessible writing 
and it's also very 

239
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,040
knowledgeable. 
This guy knows his literature 

240
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,280
and he was, I think, the 
librarian for the California 

241
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,960
Southern Californian Society for
Psychical Research. 

242
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,760
And they were both members of 
both the American and British 

243
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,040
SPR. 
So I kept looking for their 

244
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:36,520
books. 
And then I found one titled 

245
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,160
Phone Calls from the Dead from 
1979. 

246
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,000
And I bought a copy of that and 
just threw it on the pile of the

247
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,560
other books because I just 
thought, well, there must be 

248
00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:47,920
stuff like that written all the 
time and I've just never 

249
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,280
bothered to look. 
Then MSN News, as was my main 

250
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,920
way of looking at news at the 
time, reported a train collision

251
00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,040
in California with a guy called 
Charles Peck being on one of 

252
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,320
these commuter trains. 
And there's a freight train 

253
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,440
coming the other way. 
And it was so big it was causing

254
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,160
live news reports for the 
recovery of people that are on 

255
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,480
the train and what had happened.
And apparently his family were 

256
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,040
reporting repeated phone calls 
from his mobile phone. 

257
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,800
They knew nothing of the train 
collision. 

258
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,960
And when they picked up the 
phone, they were getting static.

259
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,480
And when they phoned back, it 
either went straight to 

260
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,880
voicemail or they just got 
nothing. 

261
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,640
So when they saw on the news 
that it was the very train he 

262
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,400
was travelling back on, they 
thought he was trapped in the 

263
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,520
wreckage. 
So when they got calls, his 

264
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,360
wife, his son, his daughter, 
they were shouting, you know, 

265
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,160
don't worry, dad, the rescuers 
are coming. 

266
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,040
They're on their way. 
I think they'd actually got in 

267
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,520
touch with the rescue team and 
said our father keeps calling 

268
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,560
from his phone, He must be 
trapped in that. 

269
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:43,760
So apparently they started 
working extra hard to try and 

270
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,840
find him. 
It was by about 3:30 in the 

271
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,160
morning, so 3:30 AM. 
They found his body. 

272
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,160
Apparently he'd died on 1st 
impact and they never recovered 

273
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,120
his phone. 
For me as a psychologist and 

274
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,360
even a budding 1 then I was an 
undergraduate, I thought, well, 

275
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:01,840
you know, the phone's been 
smashed. 

276
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,560
It's trapped in the wreckage. 
It's just repeatedly calling the

277
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:06,880
last people in the call 
register. 

278
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,760
He's on his way home. 
So it's going to be his wife, 

279
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,840
his son, his daughter, that 
that's where he's heading. 

280
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,960
That's most likely the last 
people that he contacted. 

281
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,440
The fact that it was never found
is no mystery. 

282
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,720
There must be so many things 
that in that collision just got 

283
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,400
smashed, thrown, were never 
recovered. 

284
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,320
But is the fact that the family 
took comfort in believing it was

285
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,240
a phone call from the dead. 
The media pushed it as a phone 

286
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,480
call from the dead. 
So I thought, well, what's in 

287
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,520
this book that I've just thrown 
on the pile from 1979? 

288
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,120
That was 2009. 
So what's in this book? 

289
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,200
And I read it cover to cover and
my goodness, there were full 

290
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,720
blown conversations recorded of 
1020 minutes with people that 

291
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,240
the next day were found to have 
been dead a week or a couple of 

292
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,880
weeks or something like that. 
That's completely different. 

293
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,000
You're actually interacting with
this person who is verified to 

294
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,880
have been dead for some time and
then following up with how the 

295
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,680
telephone works, whether there 
was a record with the telephone 

296
00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,040
companies and things like that. 
So that's what got me 

297
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,880
interested. 
I started doing a few articles 

298
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,720
on it, even text messages from 
the dead, because text messages 

299
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,920
become a new thing. 
And I found that there were some

300
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:13,680
news reports regarding that. 
And I think by about late 2010, 

301
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,440
a friend of mine in Portsmouth 
on the South Coast of the UK, 

302
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,320
put me in touch with a publisher
and he said you should really 

303
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,760
take all your articles, get some
more material together. 

304
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,560
You should really kind of do a 
sort of a second volume to the 

305
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,520
original book. 
So Telephone Calls from the Dead

306
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,560
really acts as a follow on 
because I talk about Rogo and 

307
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,360
Bayliss, but then I talk about 
where? 

308
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,720
Where are we now? 
Yeah, I read it and it's So what

309
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,240
if in your, in all the cases 
you've found what have you is a.

310
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,760
How do you distinguish between 
what is, you know, a 

311
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,600
psychological projection, a 
coincidence or a grief 

312
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,040
hallucination, you know, in 
these respects, you know, or, or

313
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,160
in something genuinely 
anomalous, you know, like, how 

314
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,520
do you, how do you do that? 
So what would be most likely 

315
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:58,840
down to conventional 
explanations? 

316
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,160
There's a lot where people say 
they wrote, woke up to the sound

317
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,680
of ringing phones and believe 
that the phone had lit up and 

318
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,920
someone had died at that time. 
Or they got a text message but 

319
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,240
there was no sender information 
connected. 

320
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,320
And then the next day they find 
that someone has passed away, or

321
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,080
it's close to the time that 
someone's died. 

322
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,240
There's all these ones where 
there's little bits of 

323
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,400
coincidences that seem like 
there's comforting signs of, 

324
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,200
well, your friend's passed away 
and you've gone to sit in the 

325
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,040
garden and a Robin lands next to
you. 

326
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,600
Or you white feathers suddenly 
start appearing. 

327
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,720
Or you, you, you kick your shoes
off and you hear some change 

328
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,000
land on the floor and it's a few
pennies and things like that. 

329
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,600
And you think, well, I don't 
leave spare change lying around.

330
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,440
Where, where's that come from? 
But then you start to make this 

331
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,080
link between the person that 
you've lost. 

332
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,240
So they're very kind of small 
coincidences, but you're making 

333
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,000
a meaningful link between them. 
So those, I would argue, there 

334
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,040
could be a number of 
conventional explanations where 

335
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,880
we could say how many times has 
that happened and you've not 

336
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,480
noticed it and not drawn a link 
because no one's died. 

337
00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,840
So it's just another daily 
occurrence. 

338
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,360
Oh, excellent. 
I found a quarter on the floor. 

339
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:01,800
Brilliant. 
Stick it in the pocket. 

340
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,920
You don't think about it. 
It's just great, you've found 

341
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,520
some change, but no one's died. 
But the fact that you know 

342
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,040
someone's died and then you 
think 1/4's fallen from the 

343
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,720
ceiling, that becomes more 
significant. 

344
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,520
This man's after my heart, by 
the way, You're after my heart. 

345
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,880
You look good. 
You're talking my language. 

346
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:24,000
Just stop that. 
I I tell you guys see, because 

347
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,960
Cal it's like John, John will 
jump in here when we get to the 

348
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,360
story, certainly for a lot more,
but it's like on his on his, 

349
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,200
he's a mainly a live streamer. 
So most people are constantly 

350
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,800
digging into him about his 
beliefs and like this is this or

351
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,240
this is what his spirit is like.
You don't know that this is 

352
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,720
could be a coincidence. 
He's he's the most skeptic of 

353
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,120
the person doing skeptical of 
anybody doing it right. 

354
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,600
So in all of your studies, the 
things that you've seen, you 

355
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,840
know, Cal, are there common 
patterns across some of these 

356
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,400
cases where you start to really 
starts to point to something 

357
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,360
real happening beyond chance or 
error? 

358
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,720
Like, is there a? 
What would you say you know? 

359
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,640
Yeah, so some of those cases 
start to push the boundaries 

360
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,280
beyond it. 
We could even talk about some of

361
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,160
the ones from living people. 
So Scott Rogo had one himself 

362
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,560
where there were intention 
calls. 

363
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,800
And you think, again, is this a 
memory thing? 

364
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,840
But then again, we've got some 
interaction here. 

365
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,000
So one of his was it was 10:00 
on a bright Thursday morning, 

366
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,280
and I was thinking about making 
a call to a colleague of mine at

367
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,600
the UCLA Neuropsychiatric 
Institute. 

368
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,520
Although I thought about making 
that call, I never actually did.

369
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,880
But by 4:00 that afternoon, I 
got the surprise of my life when

370
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,920
I got a call from the research 
assistant at the very 

371
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,680
psychologist I'd thought about 
calling. 

372
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,680
He said he was answering my 
message. 

373
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,760
When I asked what in Blazers he 
was talking about, he said that 

374
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,160
at 10:00 that morning, a caller 
had come into them. 

375
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:49,320
The caller had left my name, my 
number, and asked that the call 

376
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,840
be returned. 
And yet he's adamant he never 

377
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,680
actually made that call. 
Sometimes a whole conversation 

378
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,560
could take place as well. 
So that pushes the boundaries. 

379
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,040
And also, when you have got 
someone who you know, you take 

380
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,400
the phone call and say, oh, it's
Auntie Mary on the phone. 

381
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:04,800
She's called to say happy 
birthday to me. 

382
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,520
Isn't it lovely? 
Does anyone else want to chat 

383
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,040
with them? 
You pass the landline phone 

384
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,000
around, so you've all spoken to 
her, and the next day you find 

385
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,720
out that she died a week prior. 
So you've got multiple 

386
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,800
witnesses, You've got a 
conversation taking place. 

387
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,760
It's something you could follow 
up with a phone company. 

388
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,480
In some of the instances Rogo 
and Bayless had, there was no 

389
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,680
record of that call taking place
at that time, yet all of the 

390
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,080
ones were logged. 
And so that's why Rogo and 

391
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,680
Bayless also started to think 
maybe if these are paranormal 

392
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,040
communications, they're taking 
place inside the phone, not 

393
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,720
through the phone line and phone
system. 

394
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,400
It's it's the device itself 
that's being manipulated 

395
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,640
somehow. 
So those start to really push 

396
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,400
the boundaries of conventional 
explanations. 

397
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,120
And you asked about categories. 
They did find categories, they 

398
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,560
found themes. 
So those that might be more 

399
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,600
conventional or where you're 
grieving, you're at home alone, 

400
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:53,680
the phone rings, you hear a 
word, a voice, a name, sound of 

401
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,880
static. 
And you think that's, that's 

402
00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,280
that person or could even just 
be someone going mum, dad. 

403
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,280
Well, if you've lost a child. 
You know, that could be enough 

404
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,040
to satisfy you that you've had a
communication. 

405
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,000
But hands up, how many people 
have called mum and dad? 

406
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,800
There's a lot of people around 
the world called mum and dad 

407
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,320
and, and so it could be a missed
number. 

408
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,120
The kid suddenly hears this 
person wailing and crying over 

409
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:16,480
the phone. 
They put the phone down without 

410
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,960
apologizing or saying sorry, I 
think I've got the wrong number.

411
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,920
So for the receiver of the call,
they've had the satisfaction and

412
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,680
communication with their alleged
deceased child. 

413
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,520
But it it could go beyond that. 
So that's a simple call, just 

414
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,280
the words and phrases, no 
response. 

415
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,760
Type 2 are prolonged speaking 
for 1020 minutes. 

416
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,840
After the call you discover that
person has died. 

417
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,200
Type 3 are answer calls. 
You make the call and have a 

418
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,480
long conversation with someone 
that afterwards you find out is 

419
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,200
dead. 
Or a long conversation with 

420
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,960
someone who afterwards you find 
out was nowhere near a telephone

421
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,280
to have taken that call. 
And you find that out because of

422
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,800
meeting up with them or speaking
to someone else saying they 

423
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,000
weren't home that day. 
You know, they've been out of 

424
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,840
our house for a week because 
they've been away on holiday, 

425
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,560
but you called their landline 
and yet someone answered their 

426
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,720
phone with their name, voice 
characteristics, knowledge. 

427
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,360
They answered the phone call 
that you made. 

428
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,840
The final type that Rogo and 
Bayless had were those intention

429
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,400
calls. 
You intend to make a call, you 

430
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,720
change your mind. 
It still takes place for the 

431
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,040
other person. 
And when I looked at these 

432
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,280
cases, I found that some of them
would be a mixture of Type 1 and

433
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,480
Type 2. 
So you could know someone was 

434
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,080
dead and yet repeatedly have 
calls from them and sometimes 

435
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,400
extend the conversation. 
Those are right, but those are 

436
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,640
the most common, right? 
Like. 

437
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,520
That's no, no. 
Those are the most rare. 

438
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,800
No, those are rare to know 
someone's dead and repeatedly 

439
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,080
have calls from them. 
Got it. 

440
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,800
Type one and two could be OK 
type. 2 are the more common 

441
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,760
ones. 
Type one, yeah, yes, that's what

442
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,200
I meant. 
Type 1 and Type 2 are the most 

443
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:46,560
common in your book. 
And then it was like, wasn't 

444
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,000
there like a type 5 that you 
thought? 

445
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,400
So yeah, I split it into. 
I kind of shifted that so they 

446
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,880
had four. 
So simple prolonged answer an 

447
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,400
intention and I moved one 
category up to put a fourth one 

448
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:00,640
in. 
It was mixed calls. 

449
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,680
So the first four are all 
related to the dead and the 

450
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,040
fifth one the intention calls 
are just related to the living. 

451
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,280
So I sandwiched mixed calls in 
as fourth place. 

452
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,160
Have you now, dude? 
Which one? 

453
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,800
What's something that's giving 
you complete chills in your 

454
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,240
research where you're like, 
that's a ghost and that's real? 

455
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,600
Like, is there anything you 
could point to that was like, 

456
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,840
all right, that, you know, tell 
me anything you ask. 

457
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,840
I was. 
Going to ask two things that's 

458
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,760
very similar to what I was going
to ask go. 

459
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,360
For it ask that's. 
What you know, what piece of 

460
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:36,240
evidence, what piece of data and
not like coincidental data, 

461
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:41,920
like, you know, like hardcore 
data makes you go, I'm going to 

462
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:47,040
continue researching this, you 
know, as a forefront to, you 

463
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,560
know what I'm doing and you know
a priority, if you will. 

464
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,120
I suppose there's two in recent 
times that I really like. 1 was 

465
00:22:55,120 --> 00:23:00,360
in my book and it was it was a 
mixed call and I think it was 

466
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,680
maybe from my early articles. 
A guy reached out to me and said

467
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,720
that he was aware of 
parapsychology when he was doing

468
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,280
his his doctorate because one of
his supervisors had written a 

469
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,560
textbook on it but didn't really
teach on it. 

470
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,840
He just dabbled and he was aware
when the Bob Morris, when Bob 

471
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,000
Morris took on the Coercive 
parapsychology chair at the 

472
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,800
University of Edinburgh, he was 
a parapsychologist from 

473
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,280
California, saw that there was 
this opportunity to become take 

474
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,800
on a chair, a professorship at 
parapsychology and he won it 

475
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,840
over other people when Edinburgh
took it on. 

476
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,640
And this guy said that he got 
this passing interest and it 

477
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,240
made him think of a childhood 
experience. 

478
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:43,800
He knew of the Rogo and Bayliss 
book. 

479
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,360
My articles have clearly sparked
his interest again. 

480
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,160
So I called him Doctor Jones and
he said that when he was about 

481
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:56,200
11-12, maybe a bit older, his 
parents had split up, but they 

482
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,000
were still living amicably under
the same roof for the sake I 

483
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,200
guess of finances and so forth. 
But the roof just off doing 

484
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,240
their own thing that I think 
their parents had like separate 

485
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,440
living rooms and stuff so they 
could just come and go and make 

486
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,640
sure the kids are OK until 
maybe, you know, something made 

487
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,600
it more convenient to go their 
separate ways. 

488
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,960
The mother had rekindled a 
friendship with a childhood 

489
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760
sweetheart. 
And they mainly spoke over the 

490
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,560
phone. 
I think I call him Richard in 

491
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,640
the book. 
And so two to three times a 

492
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,360
week, she'd take the kitchen 
phone that got the long cord on 

493
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,600
it and she'd go off into another
room and shut the door and have 

494
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,280
these 1015 minute conversations.
And this went on for weeks and 

495
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,560
weeks and weeks. 
Then Richard ended up in 

496
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,160
hospital and was poorly and and 
then found out they passed away.

497
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,320
A couple of weeks go by, 
telephone rings in the kitchen. 

498
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,840
She goes to answer, it is away 
1015 minutes. 

499
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,680
And she comes back and she's 
white as a sheet and everyone 

500
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,000
says what what's wrong? 
And she said Richard's just 

501
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,440
called. 
And then it happens again and 

502
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,280
again, two to three times a 
week. 

503
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,600
These calls come through just as
they did when he was living. 

504
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,640
And she goes and has these 
conversations now one time she 

505
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,280
goes out shopping around the 
time that these calls would come

506
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,280
through. 
And Doctor Jones, because he 

507
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,360
later became a doctor in the 
social sciences, he said as this

508
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,920
young boy, he thought, well, 
what do I do? 

509
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,640
The phone's ringing. 
He goes to answer it, and he 

510
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,400
hears the sound of just 
whooshing in, the sound of wind.

511
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,680
And as though something was 
about to make a noise on the 

512
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,480
phone and he didn't know what it
was, he just shouted, she's not 

513
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,240
here and slams the phone back 
down. 

514
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,160
And he said in later life, he 
wishes he'd just held on to find

515
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,120
out what exactly is it that mum 
was listening to? 

516
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,120
Who was she speaking to? 
And he had to wait for years and

517
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:38,800
years and years to actually find
out. 

518
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,520
So around the time that he 
contacted me, which is about 

519
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,960
2000 and nine, 2010, I think 
she'd passed away the year 

520
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:52,040
before, somewhere around there. 
So late naughties and he managed

521
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,680
to get hold of her Diaries that 
they were still in storage. 

522
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,920
She'd kept Diaries that would 
hold like 3 years at a time. 

523
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,440
And he found that period of time
and thought what on earth were 

524
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,080
these conversations? 
And it's just bizarre. 

525
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,840
So yes, everyone's witnessing a 
telephone ringing. 

526
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,480
Yes, she's going away for a 
conversation. 

527
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,720
But these diary accounts say 
Monday morning my darling called

528
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,320
to say that he loved me and 
would always be at my side. 

529
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,760
He says he comes on the wind to 
speak to me and make sure that I

530
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,400
am safe. 
I have trouble sleeping. 

531
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,600
He says now you will sleep. 
Goodbye my darling, I love you. 

532
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,320
I'll be back to speak with you 
soon. 

533
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,560
Tuesday afternoon my darling 
calls to say that he loves me 

534
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,360
and is still at my side. 
On and on and on and on for 

535
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:36,360
three years or so. 
Apparently the calls just faded 

536
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:38,640
out. 
So either someone was aware that

537
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,280
Richard had died and they wanted
to prank her because of some 

538
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,160
sort of fallout. 
It's a long standing prank where

539
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,120
someone has committed themselves
two to three times a week to 

540
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:52,600
have these long winded 
conversations with her that 

541
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,160
apparently has some audible 
anomalies in them, the static 

542
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,080
sound and wind, and she's taken 
by them. 

543
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,600
Or something else is going on. 
So we've got these diary 

544
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,800
accounts, we've got his 
eyewitness account and something

545
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,000
that stuck with him for ages, so
much so that it got him into 

546
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,560
psychology. 
But ultimately, who knows? 

547
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,680
I would have ripped that phone 
straight off the wall, throwing 

548
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,960
it straight into the garbage. 
Let me give you the other one. 

549
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,080
Let me give you the other one 
that's we've got a program over 

550
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,400
here called Uncanny that's 
hosted by Danny Robbins and it's

551
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,120
on the BBC, it's on iPlayer and 
it's on BBC Radio 4. 

552
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:30,720
When people listen to it live. 
It's toured as a theatre thing. 

553
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:33,680
We've had the Uncanny con as 
well and I go on sometimes as a 

554
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,600
guest expert. 
So I was in Series 2 and Series 

555
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,880
4, which was Uncanny USA, and 
now it's coming back for Series 

556
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,720
5. 
But one of the early telephone 

557
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,520
episodes I wasn't involved in, 
my colleague Dr. Kiran O'Keefe 

558
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,400
was, and it's called Harry 
Called. 

559
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,080
So there's this guy called Will 
who was a student at university 

560
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,880
and he was with his friends. 
And then they're all doing a 

561
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,000
Ouija board and he thinks it's 
nonsense. 

562
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,720
And he sits to one side and 
watches them do it, doing it. 

563
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,200
And they ask have you got a 
message for anyone? 

564
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,960
And it says yes. 
And they said, well, what's your

565
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:11,200
name? 
And it spells that HAR Ry OK, 

566
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:17,920
who who's the message for WILL? 
And Will just said, I've had 

567
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,360
enough now just stop. 
I'm I'm really not interested in

568
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:21,440
this. 
This is really silly. 

569
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,120
And he goes back to his horse of
residence where he stays with 

570
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,640
the other students. 
Now, at that time, there was a 

571
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,760
pay phone at the end of the 
corridor if you wanted to 

572
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,800
receive calls or call home to 
your family. 

573
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,280
And if you're out, everyone had 
a piece of paper on their 

574
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,320
respective room. 
So you could just pencil on your

575
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,840
mom's called, called at this 
time, leave messages there. 

576
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,880
And he goes back and there's a 
message on the piece of paper 

577
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,360
that says, Harry called. 
And so he asks around everyone 

578
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,560
and said, who's taken this? 
And he thinks it's his friends 

579
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,800
and the other place that we're 
messing about with the Ouija 

580
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,800
board. 
They've already called ahead and

581
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,120
left this to creep him out. 
And his friends later said, no, 

582
00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,800
we didn't do that. 
And everyone on the corridor 

583
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,800
says, we didn't leave that. 
And then this happens again. 

584
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,280
And again. 
He'd come back with a message 

585
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:05,840
left on his door saying Harry 
called. 

586
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,280
And then one time he was in his 
room and someone said this one 

587
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:10,960
on the phone for you. 
They say their names, Harry. 

588
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,720
And he goes running to the 
phone, picks up and he said 

589
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,040
there was there was a voice 
there. 

590
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,400
It was a man. 
And he said this was the early 

591
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,920
1990s, but his voice and his 
characteristics were out of this

592
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,560
time. 
It was like he was from a 

593
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:23,800
completely different time 
period. 

594
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,680
He was just rambling on. 
I can't really remember what it 

595
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,840
was he was saying, but he was 
just talking and talking and 

596
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,480
talking. 
So this led to more calls and 

597
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,080
then eventually him waking in 
the middle of the night to see 

598
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,040
an elderly man stood in his room
that he thought was this vision 

599
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,080
of this person, Harry. 
So these all built and built and

600
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,800
built. 
And that one has become a 

601
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,680
favorite episode for Uncanny. 
People found it so creepy that 

602
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,040
these calls just became so 
persistent. 

603
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,560
The rule, the ones just like 
with Poltergeist, two people had

604
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,880
reports of Fisher Price Ring 
ring telephones and stuff like 

605
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,640
that. 
So yeah, some really unusual 

606
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,320
ones. 
I wonder why that old man was 

607
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,720
really into Will. 
Dude, it's creepy and in and of 

608
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,640
itself, even after Yeah, you 
know, so. 

609
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,960
So, professor, let me ask you a 
question. 

610
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,000
Is there enough data for 
rendition #3 of your book? 

611
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,360
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's 
loads. 

612
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,000
I mean, I've got even just a 
folder just down by the bookcase

613
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,360
over there. 
I've been gathering so much. 

614
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,480
That's awesome. 
I want to do a new analysis. 

615
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,600
One of my colleagues who's a 
French sociologist, he in his 

616
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,200
own book, there is a French 
Phone Calls from the Dead book 

617
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,160
that's written by Laurent 
Kasparowiks, and he looked at 

618
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,760
about 25 cases or so, I think, 
but he sent those over. 

619
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,200
We're going to do it as an 
English, even though the book's 

620
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,120
out, I'm going to write it up as
an English paper for the Journal

621
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,760
of the Society of Psychical 
Research. 

622
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,480
So that's out. 
We're going to collaborate on 

623
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,240
that, but I've got more on the 
history and other things like 

624
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,160
that and more cases have come in
that I'll do another book that's

625
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,920
not written. 
I mean this is written like a 

626
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,320
research report. 
It takes you through my process 

627
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,040
of analysis, but I'll do a more 
casual one that's more about 

628
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,680
what I've found since then and 
what's some of the more unique 

629
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,880
history. 
We've also, I'm probably a few 

630
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,440
months away from finishing it. 
If you remember in my book I 

631
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,240
wrote about an old fashioned 
telephone, people creating them 

632
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,120
in the 1920s to contact the 
dead. 

633
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,480
And there was one by someone 
called Fr Melton, Frederick 

634
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,120
Reginald Melton, who was based 
here in Nottingham. 

635
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,880
And I found so many things, 
probably a couple of years ago 

636
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,760
in the local newspaper reports 
about him that I thought, well, 

637
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,120
you know that pamphlet that he 
made, a psychic telephone, as it

638
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,240
was called, instructions to 
build such a device. 

639
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,280
It was very scarce. 
I found it as a photocopy in the

640
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,000
Californian Institute for 
Intercourse Studies, Rockefeller

641
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,520
Library, in Rogo's archive. 
And then I saw a university in 

642
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,960
the United States a year or so 
ago and also got a copy and they

643
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,840
digitized the whole thing and 
put it up for everyone. 

644
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,200
Seeing that, I thought it was 
unique but. 

645
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,080
It's like straight out of. 
Ghostbusters, man, where it's 

646
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,360
like they find the blueprints 
for the building and realize 

647
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,080
it's a, you know, it's an 
antenna for the for, you know, 

648
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,240
Yeah, you know what I mean? 
And it's like this guy built a 

649
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,640
ghost phone straight from, you 
know, having everybody build it.

650
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,800
They are out there. 
The instructions are out there. 

651
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,440
But I thought what we could do 
with my original publishers who 

652
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,280
did Tricon books, they they 
said, oh, this would be great as

653
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,000
like a little pocket sized book.
So we're going to reprint the 

654
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,640
original instructions, but the 
first half of the book will be 

655
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,280
an introduction by me to who was
Fr Melton and how reliable was 

656
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,240
he as a figure, because he seems
quite a suspicious character. 

657
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,080
The newspaper reports say that 
he'd faked his own death at one 

658
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,720
point to escape his family. 
He'd not been paying child 

659
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,520
maintenance. 
He'd been arrested for being a 

660
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,680
political activist. 
That, and then this person 

661
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,560
claims they'd built a telephone 
to contact the dead. 

662
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,320
Oh dude. 
You're going to, you're going to

663
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,320
John. 
You got to get these plans. 

664
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,920
You got to build this. 
This streams you. 

665
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,080
This screams you to do. 
It. 

666
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,840
Yeah, I know, I know. 
You got to think about it. 

667
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,440
So yes, more books to come. 
More books. 

668
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:58,480
All right. 
So awesome. 

669
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,520
That's so cool. 
Let's all right, I want to bring

670
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,720
Brian so. 
Are we doing this? 

671
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:04,440
We're doing. 
This. 

672
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:05,520
Let's do it. 
Let's do it, professor. 

673
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,080
This is going to get crazy. 
It's OK, Yeah. 

674
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,160
And he's, he'll probably look, 
you know, this is a real. 

675
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,880
So Brian. 
So, John, you set the stage of 

676
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,480
what a mod is and everything 
else, and then, and then. 

677
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:24,560
So I, I do streams on TikTok and
YouTube and I have moderators. 

678
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,600
They are, you know, people that 
are part of my community that I 

679
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,880
trust to help me moderate the 
string from trolls and whatnot 

680
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,800
and all that. 
So this is one of my, you know, 

681
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,000
good friends. 
He is, you know, one of my mods.

682
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,440
He's been with me for years. 
His background in, you know, 

683
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,200
military and everything else. 
He's got an extensive 

684
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,800
background. 
This is Brian. 

685
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:49,920
OK. 
Hi, Brian. 

686
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,400
And should I, should I get into 
the hole where we were and what 

687
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,040
we were doing, all that? 
I think we'd have to understand 

688
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,280
what Brian, you know, tell us 
about your mom, Brian, real 

689
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,640
quick so we understand when that
happened and then. 

690
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:09,000
OK, my mom passed away Christmas
Eve morning at 2:11 in the 

691
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,000
morning in 2024. 
She was very sick. 

692
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:18,239
She was diabetic five years ago.
She lost her leg, was amputated 

693
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,960
because of an infection, and she
got another infection in her 

694
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,800
right leg while she was in the 
nursing home. 

695
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,639
And a Long story short, it just 
went right through her body. 

696
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:33,760
She was septic. 
She was in ICU for the last like

697
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,239
3 or 4 weeks. 
And you know, I got a call. 

698
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,239
I was living out of state. 
I was living here in 

699
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,560
Pennsylvania. 
Not here, sorry. 

700
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,520
I was living in Pennsylvania. 
She was in a nursing home in 

701
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,719
Florida. 
I could never move her because 

702
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,159
she wasn't stable enough. 
And then I got the phone call 

703
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:54,679
about 2:30 in the morning that 
she had passed, you know, and I 

704
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,360
waited and told John the next 
day. 

705
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,160
And yeah, so it's, you know, 
it's hard. 

706
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,560
I lost both my parents now so. 
So, and, you know, it's when I 

707
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,400
first met Brian, we were doing, 
you know, we were just having a 

708
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,240
chat online doing one of our 
episodes and he was telling us 

709
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:12,640
that he gets phone calls from 
her. 

710
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,400
And this is what led me to you, 
Cal. 

711
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,600
You know, it was like this is a 
thing, like is this a thing? 

712
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,320
And it and apparently it is. 
And remember we talked about 

713
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,720
that, Brian, we were all online 
and we were telling us that this

714
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,720
happens to you and it's crazy. 
So now John set the scene in 

715
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:30,000
Indiana what you were doing. 
I'm going to play the tape 

716
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,080
where? 
The show we're, we're, we're at 

717
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,840
a, it's a, it's a famous haunted
spot out in Indiana called the, 

718
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,920
the, the Randolph County 
Infirmary. 

719
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,240
And at this point you've already
received how many phone calls? 

720
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,800
33 So at this point he's already
3 phone calls in since 2024. 

721
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,040
At the first one, I yeah, it was
in the end of December. 

722
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,320
Was that the end of December? 
So only a couple weeks after 

723
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,240
your brother passed? 
OK, so we're now. 

724
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,760
This is the end of March, right?
March 23rd I think. 

725
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Yeah, yeah. 
This is at the end of March. 

726
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,960
So we're sitting in the attic, 
which used to be an old 

727
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,600
courtroom for because this place
had multiple purposes. 

728
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,120
And yeah, I got the spirit boxes
going. 

729
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,880
We're just, I got everything 
charging up because, you know, 

730
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,960
the stream, you know, battery 
gets eaten quick. 

731
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:28,480
And a few moments before the 
phone call, a spirit comes 

732
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,160
through and says your mother is 
calling through. 

733
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:37,000
And I was using a, an app called
Vox, which, which was the one I 

734
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,840
was using at the time. 
And it says, you know, your 

735
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,240
mother is calling now. 
None of us thought anything of 

736
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,200
it because there's a lot of 
spirit chatter, a lot of 

737
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,440
different things are being said.
You know, if it's not viable and

738
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,840
it's not, you know, phone with 
the conversation, I'm ignoring 

739
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,480
it. 
So we ignored it because it made

740
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,560
it made no sense to what was 
going on, you know? 

741
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,760
And then as Brian sitting right 
next to me, the phone call comes

742
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,320
through. 
So I'm going to play it. 

743
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,920
I have it really the image is 
just static because John's got 

744
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,160
his camera facing out into this 
empty room. 

745
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,400
But it's really the audio that 
we're really paying attention 

746
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,120
to. 
So I'm going to jump over and 

747
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,240
just say just so you can see 
what's. 

748
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:22,200
Going on, I have lights on them,
mom's on the phone, patch it 

749
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,800
through. 
I'm not sure. 

750
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,840
Let me start that again real 
quick guys, because it's it's 

751
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,640
always a little tricky when I do
this video, it like jumps on its

752
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,800
own, but I'm not sure we turn 
the volume all the way up. 

753
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,480
So bad, so bad. 
Lights in them. 

754
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,440
Mom's on the phone. 
Patch you through. 

755
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,520
Not with me, John, it. 
Was a few moments late. 

756
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,240
Look. 
At my phone. 

757
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,320
Well, look at. 
My phone. 

758
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,040
Oh shit. 
Can I pick it up? 

759
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,400
No, no. 
OK dude that is wild. 

760
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,240
Have you ever picked that up? 
Yeah, I told you I had it. 

761
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:10,240
Before, yes, yeah, that's right.
Dude. 

762
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:14,520
That's wild bro. 
Thing happening. 

763
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:17,400
To. 
Come. 

764
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,760
That's wild, holy shit. 
Now let's see what I'm saying. 

765
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,440
Wow. 
So they're asking what they're 

766
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:32,320
asking. 
What you can tell? 

767
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,440
Them it's OK. 
So Brian's mother passed away 

768
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:45,280
recently, like very recently. 
And Brian, this is your dude. 

769
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,240
Either someone's bro, I don't 
know if you want to read that 

770
00:38:51,240 --> 00:39:02,560
text message, either somebody is
fucking with you or no. 

771
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,000
You got to read it. 
You got to read it. 

772
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,880
If you don't want to continue 
the conversation afterwards, I 

773
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,840
understand we could talk in 
private. 

774
00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:28,890
All right, so you can see that 
happened live. 

775
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:34,760
He received a call and then 
there was a voice to text, you 

776
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,680
know, on the phone. 
That does it now, Brian, what 

777
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,280
were those? 
When you've gotten calls in the 

778
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,640
past, did you ever answer it? 
I've only answered the first one

779
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,240
and it was a lot of it was just 
straight like static. 

780
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,480
There was nothing. 
I couldn't hear any voices and 

781
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,400
it was just static, you know, 
nothing more than that. 

782
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,760
And and that was from your mom's
phone. 

783
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,720
Yes, because I had my mom's 
phone. 

784
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,360
So just here, just real quick, 
I'll speed this up. 

785
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,040
Just so you know, the phone is 
active. 

786
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,880
Yeah, the phone is still intact.
It remains off and in your 

787
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,840
drawer, right. 
Just so those details. 

788
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,360
So there's still, there's, 
there's still service connected 

789
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,760
to it. 
You know, we can still receive 

790
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,640
calls and make calls, you know, 
hasn't been taken off. 

791
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,720
You know, it's, you know, it's 
still paid for it. 

792
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,560
So, but it's off and in his 
drawer for the most part. 

793
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,120
Yeah. 
Nobody else has that number, so.

794
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,120
OK, now here's the message and 
what's really interesting about 

795
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:43,880
it is the voice to text is 
different than the message that 

796
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,960
comes through. 
But I'm going to play it. 

797
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:58,640
Brian, you're here we go. 
Brian, this is your mom. 

798
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,800
Can you give me a call please 
when you can? 

799
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:04,640
OK. 
I love you. 

800
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:14,530
Bye. 
So that's that was the message. 

801
00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:18,650
And then this is the 
transcription. 

802
00:41:18,650 --> 00:41:19,890
It says, Brian, this is your 
mom. 

803
00:41:19,890 --> 00:41:22,130
Can you call me and let me know 
what's going on? 

804
00:41:22,130 --> 00:41:26,370
Please? 
It doesn't matter, but it 

805
00:41:26,370 --> 00:41:27,890
doesn't matter when, but please 
give me a call. 

806
00:41:27,890 --> 00:41:28,850
I love you. 
Bye, bye. 

807
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,920
And that's what came through on 
the text on The Voice to on The 

808
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:38,480
Voice to text from the message, 
right, that the phone does. 

809
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:43,560
Is that actually came through on
that? 

810
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,760
Is that actually, Brian, your 
mother's voice? 

811
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,400
That's your mother's voice. 
Yes, it is. 

812
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,280
You're right. 
Yeah, That's that's her. 

813
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,160
I'm just, it's like John and I 
talked about because I didn't 

814
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,280
listen to it until I was with 
John, you know, being my friend 

815
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,400
and everything. 
And the Long story short, it 

816
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,360
just sounded like when she was 
younger, like I remember her 

817
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,520
when she was younger, you know, 
like John brought up, you know, 

818
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,320
no pain in her voice. 
She sounded good, you know, so 

819
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,520
it's not like when she was in 
the ICU or anything like that. 

820
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,800
And I'm just. 
And you're, she was also, you 

821
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,520
know, her mind was starting to 
go as well. 

822
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,800
And you could hear it in her 
voice, but in that message. 

823
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,440
You can't. 
It sounds like she's, you know? 

824
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,080
This sounds like a. 
Chores in the house and picking 

825
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,240
up her phone to call her son. 
Yeah. 

826
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,160
So Cal, what jokes down at you 
first in terms of tone, timing, 

827
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,600
voice? 
Well, you place me a crossroads 

828
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,080
really as to whether, you know, 
in this moment, I act as 

829
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,800
parapsychologist and you want me
to explore conventional 

830
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,400
explanations. 
I mean, this is a very recent 

831
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,640
thing for Brian. 
It's very impactful. 

832
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,840
Even I'm feeling it from 
listening to that and hearing 

833
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,840
the back story. 
It's it's still very fresh. 

834
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,400
And you know, Brian, you say 
you've lost also both your 

835
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,040
parents as well. 
That's a big thing for anyone to

836
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,360
go through and know that you're 
you're now the next step in the 

837
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,720
next generation. 
So, you know, I either have the 

838
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,520
secondary role, which is 
clinical parapsychologist in 

839
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,480
that I can tell you all the 
things about other people's 

840
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,680
experiences and but the fact 
that these naturally have a big 

841
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,920
benefit for us and a purpose in 
helping with grieving and 

842
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,840
coping. 
And it's more beneficial to have

843
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,880
these experiences than it is to 
not. 

844
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,920
Because when you don't, people 
try and turn to other grief work

845
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:35,080
to try and cope and move 
forward. 

846
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,800
People find them very special 
and they revel in their kind of 

847
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,000
exceptional nature. 
And I think this is great. 

848
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,760
You're lucky if you have one. 
Some people might have more than

849
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,160
one. 
Some people might just have 

850
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,520
something that's more on that 
symbolic level, but this is very

851
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,880
direct and, and seeming like 
this person is, you know, 

852
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,160
contacting you directly over the
phone in some way. 

853
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,520
You know, I, there's a number of
things that jump to my mind, but

854
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,840
I, I think for the, the purpose 
of a podcast like this, I don't 

855
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,320
want to break it down. 
This is something that I have to

856
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,960
as a parapsychologist and 
psychologist think, well Brian, 

857
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,160
if you wanted a 1:00 to 1:00 and
we talked through whatever 

858
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,160
direction you wanted, do you 
really want conventional 

859
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,880
explanations for this or do you 
want to know more about the kind

860
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,480
of therapeutic side? 
That's what we go down. 

861
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,960
So that's more the position that
I would say at this point in 

862
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,000
time is to I could go one or the
other. 

863
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:24,640
I. 
Find it compelling. 

864
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,200
I find the timing compelling and
I understand how impactful that 

865
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,520
could be. 
And this is exactly what we're 

866
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,840
talking about in terms of what 
these experiences can be like 

867
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,560
for people. 
That that's the fact that you 

868
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,280
got a voicemail like that is 
very compelling. 

869
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,960
But I've I've got ideas here as 
to what it could be, but I also 

870
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,120
know what kind of impact this is
having as well. 

871
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,480
Is it, you know, when you know, 
if you want to answer this based

872
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,200
on what you just said, but is it
like from a scientific 

873
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,800
perspective? 
And I'm not, I'm not we're not 

874
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,440
trying to debunk anything here, 
but it is, is it like, is it 

875
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,480
worth it for us to go to like a 
like a, an audio forensics to 

876
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,200
see what that is? 
Or is it like what would you? 

877
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,640
No, I, I, my opinion is that's a
genuine voicemail, but that, but

878
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,040
I've got other ideas attached to
it. 

879
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,040
There's no need to. 
I, I see on some ghost hunting 

880
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,920
shows and stuff when they're 
going out and they've got a 

881
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,200
dictaphone in the hand and that 
they're walking around with it 

882
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,640
and their hands all over it and 
there's all kind of muffled 

883
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,280
sounds and stuff. 
And people are trying to make 

884
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,280
sense of the random sound and 
then they start to refine it 

885
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,000
through some sort of editing 
process. 

886
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,560
Well, that's not how EVP was 
ever done. 

887
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,200
It was reel to reel recorders. 
It was clarity of sound. 

888
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,200
It was soundproof boxes. 
And yet on playback, there were 

889
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,840
bangs, scratches, noises, 
voices, which you should not get

890
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,480
a from the clarity of fresh reel
to reels or cassette tapes. 

891
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,440
And also with it being in a 
soundproof box. 

892
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,760
So this idea of walking around 
with one where you're creating 

893
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,800
all kinds of audible anomalies 
from your hands and everything 

894
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,920
else in the building, it creates
chaos. 

895
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,520
That's a very clear cut 
voicemail. 

896
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,280
You don't need to run that 
through anything. 

897
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:01,800
If Brian says that's his 
mother's voice, it sounds very 

898
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,080
clearly like a woman and I 
understand every word that was 

899
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,760
said. 
It's Brian's mom's voice. 

900
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,600
Wild. 
And, and what's, what's really 

901
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,160
wild because again, I'm, I, I 
like to, you know, not debunk, 

902
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,240
but look at things from a more 
logical perspective, especially 

903
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:19,080
when it comes to the paranormal.
I've had and we've all had this 

904
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,720
and this can't be denied. 
You've had issues with your cell

905
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:26,720
phones where people leave a 
message and even if you check 

906
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:32,320
that message, it comes in again 
and it comes in again, it comes 

907
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,400
in again. 
What's, But what's unique with 

908
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,200
Brian is that even after he 
checks these messages, they keep

909
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:44,040
coming and they're different. 
And what's really wild is the 

910
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:50,360
fact that they they're not old. 
Like this isn't a message that 

911
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,160
he's gotten before from his mom.
It's a it's a new one and it's 

912
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,080
new every time. 
So, you know, you know, we can, 

913
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,800
I can sit here and and nitpick 
too on what exactly it could be 

914
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,560
or what not. 
But what I said to Brian was how

915
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,800
awesome is it that of course, 
horrible, your mother passed 

916
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,400
away Horrible. 
But nobody gets these chances. 

917
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,560
That's it to to hear your 
mother's voice again and to hear

918
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:24,800
it clear, not in pain, not in 
distress, just normal is amazing

919
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,400
in itself. 
And that goes into what you were

920
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,040
talking about, professor, about 
the therapeutic, therapeutic 

921
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,120
side of it, which is, in my 
opinion, beautiful. 

922
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,960
People revel in it, and you know
when they see apparitions at the

923
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,040
end of the bed, they'll say, you
know, the person looked glowing,

924
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,160
radiant, free of pain. 
Or sometimes, you know, if it's 

925
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,080
a friend, they looked younger 
than the point at which I first 

926
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,920
knew them. 
You know, I met them in their 

927
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,240
30s. 
They looked like they were just 

928
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:52,120
coming out of their teens or 
early 20s. 

929
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,880
And you know, that they seem 
like they're full of life and 

930
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,680
they're good. 
And so that that in itself that 

931
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,400
you've got the communication, 
which is one that changes that 

932
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,120
person's will view about life 
and death and continuity 

933
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,120
thereafter. 
But also this idea of this 

934
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,920
person being OK. 
You might have seen them in not 

935
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,160
such an OK situation at the end 
that the whole thing's reversed 

936
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,000
and this person is free and 
they're looking down over me and

937
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,800
you know, maybe I might have 
another experience again. 

938
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,040
But even just one is significant
enough. 

939
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,600
And that's if we're totally 
leaving this parapsychological 

940
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,480
side of what's the explanation 
in it. 

941
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,720
Have we got a conventional one 
that fits, you know, psychology,

942
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,040
physics, electronics and what we
know about all of those mushed 

943
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,320
together or does nothing seem to
fit and we've got something new 

944
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,040
to explore right now with 
Brian's case, unless Brian want 

945
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,800
to want to want to explore this 
further. 

946
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:40,880
I would say let's look at the 
impact of this. 

947
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,680
And that's very impactful. 
It's very clear what's going on 

948
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,720
for everyone listening, It's 
very clear what's going on, and 

949
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:50,200
the story is very clear as well.
How impactful is that? 

950
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:53,240
It's remarkable if you just take
it as it is and think of, well, 

951
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,360
would I sooner have that in the 
grieving process or just nothing

952
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,480
at all? 
I think many of us would want a 

953
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,560
little something like that and a
little knob and a wink, an 

954
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,800
actual voicemail message. 
If you just want to leave it as 

955
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,960
that and not dig for the 
explanation, take it as it is. 

956
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,600
Yeah, Professor, let me ask you 
a question. 

957
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,320
Right, right. 
Thank you for sharing that too, 

958
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,120
by the way. 
Yeah, yeah. 

959
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,200
Thank you, Brian so much. 
I can clearly see how how much 

960
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,960
that's impacting you even now. 
So you know, the fact that you 

961
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,640
wanted to share it in this kind 
of forum as well, I mean, thank 

962
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,960
you. 
And hopefully, you know, you 

963
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,160
feel positive about it and these
are kind of good experiences 

964
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,320
when you do have them, you're 
not finding them scary or 

965
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,960
anything like that or finding 
them a negative to moving 

966
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,160
forward with your life. 
But please don't think that 

967
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,600
there's no one to speak to. 
I mean, as I say, I come from a 

968
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,560
whole department of 
parapsychologists and 

969
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,160
counselling psychologists who 
are both. 

970
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,320
And there's there's all kinds of
networks as well to actually 

971
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,000
understand these experiences 
more as well as, you know, 

972
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,800
learning more about yourself 
moving forward. 

973
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,280
These aren't signs of psychosis 
in the vast majority of cases. 

974
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,520
Varieties of people all around 
the world have these kinds of 

975
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,840
experiences. 
They're cross cultural and 

976
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,720
they're more common than not. 
I think it's up to like some 

977
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:08,280
surveys have said around 70% of 
people can relate to some form 

978
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,520
of experience post loss. 
So they're, they're very, very 

979
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,120
common. 
So you're, you're one of the 

980
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,200
fortunate to get something as 
impactful as a voicemail message

981
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:21,200
as your individual kind of sign.
But yeah, if you want to explore

982
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,640
it further, I'm I'm here and I 
can put you in contact with 

983
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,240
people as well if you, if you 
want to talk to 1 and and 

984
00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:28,440
explore it further. 
I'll make sure that you have his

985
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,200
contact information, Brian 
later, if you know. 

986
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,800
Yeah. 
That's something you want, you 

987
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,800
know. 
Again, Brian, thank you, man, 

988
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,480
really appreciate it. 
You know, I appreciate you so 

989
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,280
much. 
Professor, I have a question 

990
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,240
definitely while all this was 
while all this was going on, 

991
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,080
does did you know, you know how 
you were bringing up the types 

992
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,920
like Type 1, type 2, type 3, 
type 4 and all those. 

993
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,800
Did you notice an uptick or a 
downtick in the types that were 

994
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:03,400
coming through via a landline as
opposed to now more, you know, 

995
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,960
cell phones and smartphones? 
Dude, it's, it's, it's so funny.

996
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,680
I was that was, I was asked. 
I was even. 

997
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,200
That was my next question. 
Has technology made your work 

998
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:18,200
harder or? 
Or yeah, if there was a change 

999
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:23,280
in the data with the types or a 
decrease or an increase, or, you

1000
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,760
know, what the data look like. 
I mean, that's just fascinating.

1001
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,440
And the the simple answer is I 
don't have the kind of answer in

1002
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:35,400
terms of concrete stacks stats 
because I was just finishing my 

1003
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,280
master's degree as I finished 
writing that book. 

1004
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,760
And so smart technology 
smartphones were just becoming a

1005
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,080
thing. 
The iPhone was at 2007 when the 

1006
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:47,000
first iPhone at 2:00. 
Thousand, 2006. 

1007
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:52,520
So I started writing on this two
years later, and then another 

1008
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,680
two years later, the book was 
done. 

1009
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:57,440
The data The data didn't exist 
yet, basically. 

1010
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,600
No, there was a few telephone 
cases. 

1011
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,560
There was a few antiphone cases 
just like Brian's case, like 

1012
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,160
that that I'd heard of or I'd 
seen in newspaper reports and a 

1013
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,680
few text message cases. 
Most of my stuff was historical 

1014
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,400
landlines or current day 
landline. 

1015
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,800
So it's still the basic landline
technology where whenever you 

1016
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,720
dialed a number, it, it would 
kind of send a signal and it 

1017
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:21,600
would open the signal and close 
the signal. 

1018
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,400
And so I even talked about a 
little bit when you see it in 

1019
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,360
the film Red Dragon with 
Hannibal Lecter. 

1020
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,120
And they gave him the telephone 
to a solicitor and they put a 

1021
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,600
plate over where the Rotary dial
would be. 

1022
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,400
But he knows that he can just 
lift it up, press the kind of 

1023
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,840
the receiver down and then tap 
it. 

1024
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,440
So you could tap in the numbers 
and you could call someone just 

1025
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:49,120
by going 1212345 one and then 
you could call someone. 

1026
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,640
That way you wouldn't need the 
numbers. 

1027
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,640
So it's very basic of opening 
the line and closing the line 

1028
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,840
and then it would find the the 
telephone it needs to reach out 

1029
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,920
to. 
This stuff is now way more 

1030
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,880
sophisticated. 
You have got people started 

1031
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,720
using them instantly as 
satellite navigation in their 

1032
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:06,840
car. 
You were looking up things on 

1033
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,880
the Internet, apps started to 
come in so you could start to, 

1034
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,800
you know, get vouchers for 
things. 

1035
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,640
You know, if you've got 
Starbucks vouchers or other 

1036
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,840
coffee shops or McDonald's or 
whatever, all these things built

1037
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,240
and you're doing most of your 
things and you're banking and 

1038
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:23,800
everything else all through your
phone, which is why people are 

1039
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,760
devastated if they lose them. 
You've got your kids pictures on

1040
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,320
there, you've got birthday 
parties, you've got significant 

1041
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,000
events, you've got things you 
want to remember for later. 

1042
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,120
You know, early on when you just
got a Nokia phone or something 

1043
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,360
like that, you played Snake. 
You. 

1044
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,600
You texted people and you call 
people and then later on you 

1045
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,200
could take a really fuzzy, 
crappy pixelated picture, but it

1046
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:47,960
was still the best thing. 
Oh my God. 

1047
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,240
You know you've got some form of
camera to hand because no one 

1048
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:53,520
else is typically walking around
with a camera on them. 

1049
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:57,640
So since then, websites were 
being developed so you could 

1050
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,760
send text messages anonymously 
and they will go through to 

1051
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,920
someone's phone and then you'd 
start paying for them there 

1052
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,200
afterwards. 
There is more space now for 

1053
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,680
manipulating a call or a text 
message than there would have 

1054
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,880
been with the landline. 
Rogo and Bayliss, even in 1979, 

1055
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,880
only logged 2 instances they 
knew of of voicemail messages. 

1056
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,920
Because the voicemail machine 
with the tiny reel to reel 

1057
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,200
cassettes was only just starting
to come in and was only just 

1058
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,440
starting to be a popular thing. 
And thereafter things like VHS 

1059
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,600
players and people having home 
videos and things like that. 

1060
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,960
So everything was new. 
So I also wrote the book on the 

1061
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,520
cusp of smartphones coming in. 
So I'm still dealing with 

1062
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:39,400
relatively basic like 
technology. 

1063
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,640
So something I really need to 
explore more and see how much if

1064
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,440
I do like a basic survey of 
people's experiences, again, 

1065
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,720
just more so for the sake of the
numbers and gather some of the 

1066
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:51,560
accounts as I do it, I can see, 
was it a landline? 

1067
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,880
Was it a smartphone? 
Yeah, I only have like 2. 

1068
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,200
I only have like 2 more 
questions for you, man. 

1069
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,560
And I and I really appreciate 
your time here with us today. 

1070
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,000
And John, if you have anything 
else, by all means jump in. 

1071
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:08,360
But I guess it's like, you know,
as we, as we wrap this up, how 

1072
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,280
do you, how do you feel with all
of your research? 

1073
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,040
And as we're going and, and 
hearing this stuff, and 

1074
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,360
sometimes the tech is getting 
clearer, more traceable, or it's

1075
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,320
getting worse with more deep 
fakes and things like that. 

1076
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,920
But do you think we're getting 
closer to understanding how sort

1077
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,600
of how consciousness persists 
after death in your studies? 

1078
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,000
Do you feel like you're 
progressing, you know, and 

1079
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,720
understanding that? 
Do you make an interesting point

1080
00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:34,920
with Deepfake and then AI? 
I mean, the amount of kind of 

1081
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,880
fictional shows that have been 
made about, well, if we're using

1082
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,320
these all the time, we've got 
apps and so forth, then you 

1083
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,520
could potentially have an app 
that's starting to, I mean, we 

1084
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,960
even talk about Alexas and 
things like that. 

1085
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,920
Mine's probably woken up having 
said that, she'll start saying 

1086
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,680
something. 
But you know, they're getting 

1087
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,840
your algorithms, they like it. 
They're saying what you like and

1088
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,280
what you don't like, what music 
you're listening to and what 

1089
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,880
you're not listening to, what 
you're ordering off of that 

1090
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,160
popular website and what you're 
not ordering. 

1091
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,640
And so it's building 
characteristics about you that 

1092
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,120
other people could relate to. 
And you could say, well, that 

1093
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,560
sounds like Gary's song list. 
It sounds like the kinds of 

1094
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,920
things Gary would buy from that 
website. 

1095
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:17,680
And the idea was in some of 
these fictional shows, well, it 

1096
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,520
could record your conversations 
and your voice characteristics. 

1097
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,640
So what if we had an app where 
after you've died, you go on the

1098
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,600
app and you say you want phone 
calls from, you know, your 

1099
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,440
deceased friend Steven, and you 
could just ring it every time 

1100
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,240
and have a pretend conversation.
That's all AI and is doing a 

1101
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:35,520
deep fake. 
It's just getting all the 

1102
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,920
characteristics of Steven and 
putting them together and 

1103
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,520
creating a logical conversation.
We could do that now to some 

1104
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,120
extent with the technology that 
we have. 

1105
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,960
Only a few years ago it was a 
thing of fiction, but we were 

1106
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,520
catching up to it. 
It's quite fun when you look at 

1107
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,520
even sci-fi shows. 
I'm a big fan of the sitcom over

1108
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,560
here, Red Dwarf, and a lot of 
the things they said and that 

1109
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,160
and even in Star Trek have 
become an actual reality of 

1110
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,400
technology now where, you know, 
years ago we thought that's, you

1111
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,400
know, nonsense. 
And they're playing around with 

1112
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:04,920
little bits of things that tech 
guys have put together, but 

1113
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,840
they've become an actual thing, 
you know, having a conversation 

1114
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,560
with someone. 
I'm on an iMac right now and the

1115
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,720
screen is that thin. 
And that was, you know, 

1116
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,120
something of fiction only, you 
know, so many years ago. 

1117
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,400
But now it's a natural thing. 
And you can have a video 

1118
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,240
conversation with someone on 
your phone that was in Star Trek

1119
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:21,320
and all sorts. 
We've caught up. 

1120
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:26,000
So the room for error is is far 
greater now when it comes to 

1121
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,760
things like that. 
Well, away from your your 

1122
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,520
question there, Gary. 
A little bit, but it's but is it

1123
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,440
does that define consciousness? 
You know what I mean? 

1124
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,800
You know what I mean? 
Is it like but because AI you 

1125
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,360
know you? 
You language for? 

1126
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,080
Yeah, I always say, I always 
say, because people always ask 

1127
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,000
me with my stream, hey, when are
you going to start incorporating

1128
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,400
language models? 
When are you going to start 

1129
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,480
using AI to decipher what the 
spirits are saying? 

1130
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:58,720
And there's all these new ITC 
apps popping out that deal with 

1131
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:04,240
the language models and AIS. 
My whole thing is I have to look

1132
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,120
at it from a very bird's eye 
point of view. 

1133
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:13,440
And what if spirits can 
manipulate the AI and we create 

1134
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:18,280
something completely different? 
As sci-fi as it sounds, it's, 

1135
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,320
it's the truth. 
We don't, we don't understand, 

1136
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,240
like for example, we don't 
understand what and how your 

1137
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,240
mother's spirit manipulated that
phone. 

1138
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,840
We don't understand how they 
manipulate the devices I use or 

1139
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,000
other people's devices. 
So who's to say that they're not

1140
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,240
going to take a language model 
and create something completely 

1141
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,560
different with it? 
So we're trying to talk to say, 

1142
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,440
you know, Mike, you know, the 
spirit Mike. 

1143
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,280
And in reality, that language 
model completely changes Mike 

1144
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,160
into something else. 
And we don't know, we don't know

1145
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,720
how far the implications can go.
So I, I see what you're saying, 

1146
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,720
Professor. 
It's, it's, it's, it's broad. 

1147
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,440
It's, you know, it's the room 
for error. 

1148
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,640
The room for manipulation is 
vast. 

1149
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,200
And that's why I don't think, 
even though I've written on it 

1150
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,200
and that's why we're having the 
conversation today, I don't 

1151
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,760
think the telephones and the 
technology offer the best 

1152
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,120
evidence for consciousness 
surviving deaths. 

1153
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,400
Let me make a physical point. 
I can just grab it here. 

1154
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:21,320
Sure. 
So this, out of all the books 

1155
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:26,080
I've got, this is the essays 
from the Bigelow competition in 

1156
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,960
five volumes. 
I think there was like 200 and 

1157
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,640
and six successful essays that 
went through to be judged. 

1158
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:40,200
So I'm in, I think I'm in volume
5 with the essay that I was 

1159
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:45,000
involved in and it was half, 
$1,000,000 for the the best 

1160
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,640
evidence in 25,000 words for 
survival, a permanent bodily 

1161
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,680
death. 
And my colleague, Doctor Jeffrey

1162
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,760
Mishlov, he was the essay winner
for that. 

1163
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,760
He spoke about the telephones 
off the back of my research as 

1164
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,400
part of his essay. 
But when it came to the one that

1165
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,920
I was involved in, didn't 
discuss any of that. 

1166
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,360
My main 2 areas that I was asked
to write with three other 

1167
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,040
authors was best evidence from 
deathbed visions. 

1168
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,160
So people dying on their 
deathbed over the last 150 years

1169
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:13,720
that we've kind of written on 
that topic. 

1170
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:15,680
What are the best cases where it
seems? 

1171
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,960
How on earth did that dying 
person? 

1172
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,320
Know about this other person 
who's come to them that's, you 

1173
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,200
know, is dead, but they don't 
know they've died. 

1174
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,920
And yet they've delivered such 
specific information that's had 

1175
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,560
to be followed up. 
And also what haunting cases 

1176
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,040
throughout history have also 
offered the best evidence. 

1177
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,400
So I spoke about two cases, but 
one that was memorable was the 

1178
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,360
Cheltenham ghost. 
It was also known as the Morton 

1179
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,560
ghost. 
And it's also sort of the basis 

1180
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:42,640
for the film and stage play, The
Woman in Black. 

1181
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,280
Now, in that case, the 
apparition appeared so often 

1182
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:47,760
that they could experiment with 
it. 

1183
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,240
Morton, who was the main author 
of the paper, who was a medical 

1184
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,800
student, she'd seen the 
apparition late one night and 

1185
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,640
started putting fiber across the
staircase so she could see if it

1186
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,520
will break the fiber and they 
follow it around the house. 

1187
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,880
It would appear in the garden. 
They tried to corner it and 

1188
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,640
reach out and touch it, and they
had so many opportunities to 

1189
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,280
experiment with the apparition 
because it was appearing so 

1190
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,760
often. 
These are really powerful cases 

1191
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,920
that if you see those green 
books over there, the 

1192
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:15,520
proceedings of the Society for 
Psychical Research, it was one 

1193
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,720
of the early reports with a 
foreword by Frederick Meyers, 

1194
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,640
who was a massive scholar at the
field talking about the case. 

1195
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,320
And then he wrote, you can see 
it in blue just there, the two 

1196
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,880
volume book in 1903, Human 
Personality and it's Survival of

1197
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,000
Bodily Death, a massive piece of
work, especially on what is 

1198
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,200
human consciousness, what does 
it mean to us? 

1199
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,960
And has it got this capacity for
surviving bodily death? 

1200
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,400
What's the evidence for it? 
So I think all of these other 

1201
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,880
kinds of cases that we have more
regularly day-to-day, sensing 

1202
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,560
the presence of the dead, seeing
apparitions, seeing them in 

1203
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,200
dreams, as much interaction as 
we like through people 

1204
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,400
professing to meet mediums, We 
can easily put those people to 

1205
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,600
the test and see if they really 
can deliver specific 

1206
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,160
information, really specific 
information, and see if this is 

1207
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,080
offering us any more information
about, well, you know, how 

1208
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,080
powerful is human personality 
and can it actually survive? 

1209
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,720
Or is something traces of our 
memory at least being retained 

1210
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,560
somehow that we can pick up on? 
So there may be no survival of 

1211
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,240
death whatsoever, but the mind 
is so powerful it, it creates a 

1212
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,200
memory bank somewhere. 
You know, we've got radio waves 

1213
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:22,160
and EMF and ultraviolet. 
Is there a side field in 

1214
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,160
biology? 
In biology, we call it a morphic

1215
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,600
field. 
And you know, we could talk of 

1216
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:29,160
all kinds of fields of 
information. 

1217
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,560
Is it that is it? 
That's what that's John's 

1218
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,960
theory, that's what John always 
believes is our spirits. 

1219
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,160
It's our memories that were 
attached to the energy of us 

1220
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:38,520
that's released 'cause we don't 
really. 

1221
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:41,600
Well, Mrs. Garrett, Eileen 
Garrett, towards the end of her 

1222
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,280
life, she didn't believe she was
a world famous medium. 

1223
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:48,200
Very, very rich, founded the 
Parapsychology Foundation in 

1224
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:52,520
America in 1951. 
She'd moved over there and 

1225
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,240
funded a lot of research and by 
the end of her life she believed

1226
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,640
more so that a lot of her 
information was telepathic. 

1227
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:01,200
It was coming from the sitters. 
She was picking up on the the 

1228
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,080
Bereaves knowledge or whoever 
she was working with, their 

1229
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,720
knowledge of the dead. 
And that's why it seems so 

1230
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,800
impressive she wasn't 
communicating with the dead. 

1231
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,400
Fascinating. 
And I like what you said about 

1232
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:13,800
being specific. 
You know, it's as specific as 

1233
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:14,920
you get. 
I was talking, I did an 

1234
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,560
interview with a woman named 
Simon Key from she used to be a 

1235
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,200
tutor at the Arthur Finley 
College and she would say they 

1236
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:22,880
had a word called. 
I loved it was like Claire 

1237
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,480
vagueness as opposed to Claire 
plants, you know, like that's 

1238
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,280
what you got to watch for Claire
vagueness. 

1239
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,360
That's how you can spot a fraud,
you know, like they're just 

1240
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,400
giving you the big broad things 
and. 

1241
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,720
Without the details. 
Yeah, without the details, 

1242
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:38,200
Professor, I got one more 
question for you and I'll let 

1243
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:39,240
you go. 
You've been absolutely 

1244
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:40,840
wonderful. 
Thank you. 

1245
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:41,760
Thank you. 
We can't. 

1246
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:43,920
We can't we appreciate it so 
much. 

1247
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:48,040
If you received one of these 
calls, what's the first question

1248
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,600
you would ask? 
Who's calling please? 

1249
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:54,880
Have I got it? 
Who is it from? 

1250
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,280
And that's the thing, if it's 
just some random dead person, I 

1251
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,520
wouldn't really be able to help.
Let's assume it's somebody you 

1252
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,440
know. 
Let's assume it would be someone

1253
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,320
you knew that had passed, 
someone you were close to, they 

1254
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,120
had passed and you get a phone 
call from them. 

1255
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:08,760
What would you? 
Ask. 

1256
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,880
Then I'd say you need to make me
convinced. 

1257
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,120
Give me some specific 
information that I only I would 

1258
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,520
know that you would know. 
So it's got to be something like

1259
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:20,040
that. 
I mean, there could be a few 

1260
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,320
things. 
So you hit them from the 

1261
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:24,000
science, You hit them right out 
of the gate. 

1262
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,560
It can't be a celebrity because 
there'd be so many people that'd

1263
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:29,840
be able to impersonate them and 
what is publicly known. 

1264
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:33,000
So it's either going to be a 
dead relative or one of the the 

1265
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,920
scientists past that I know of. 
I mean, it could be Rogo or 

1266
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:38,160
Bayliss as well. 
You know, if they came forward, 

1267
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,320
I would know so much about them 
because I've delved so much into

1268
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,240
their own personal history that,
you know, there's questions that

1269
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,240
I could ask. 
So I will put them to the 

1270
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,040
challenge of this is great. 
You know, please stay on the 

1271
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:49,440
line. 
I would I would like to actually

1272
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,160
have this conversation, but we 
need to go through some 

1273
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,120
specifics here and and make sure
that we're actually genuinely 

1274
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,120
establishing content. 
You know, there was Constantine 

1275
01:04:58,120 --> 01:04:59,800
Roundover. 
Have you heard of him because of

1276
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:02,240
Breakthrough, the book 
Breakthrough that was a 

1277
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,360
considered a really big book in 
the progress of the history of 

1278
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:07,720
EVP. 
And Doctor Constantine Roundover

1279
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,600
was a psychologist. 
And when he brought out the book

1280
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,480
Break Breakthrough, it came with
an LP. 

1281
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:16,520
So you could listen to his Evps 
as you read the book to hear 

1282
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:20,640
these examples. 
And after he died, there were 

1283
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:25,080
claims in Germany, France and 
the USA that he was repeatedly 

1284
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:30,280
calling paranormal researchers 
to actually say I'm on the other

1285
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,160
side and we're creating a 
telephone to contact living and 

1286
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,440
you need to document these 
cases. 

1287
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,680
I think the guy in America was 
called Mark Macy and he'd 

1288
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,640
written a few things a few 
things on this and he's got 

1289
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:48,880
these these recordings and I 
remember kind of facing them 

1290
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,480
with quite a bit of skepticism 
of this is unusual. 

1291
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,440
It sounds like someone 
impersonating round of AI mean. 

1292
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,240
It's got this very deep voice 
with the accent and so forth. 

1293
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:02,440
But over and over again and and 
Mark spoke very positively about

1294
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,680
them and, you know, absolutely 
head on involved with trying to 

1295
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:10,880
understand this this contact. 
So yeah, there's even been these

1296
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:14,520
figures who did the research, 
returning allegedly afterwards 

1297
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,120
and trying to get. 
Into it was like Houdini. 

1298
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,200
It wasn't like Houdini's thing. 
He would give. 

1299
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:20,880
He was like he gave someone a 
word. 

1300
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:25,040
Yeah, he died with a code. 
And allegedly the the medium 

1301
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,520
that he had kind of outed the 
most and spoke so negatively 

1302
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,640
about was Arthur Ford. 
And Arthur Ford was the first 

1303
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,480
medium to claim that he got the 
code, and apparently it was the 

1304
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:39,440
code that Houdini had died with.
And so that there's the 

1305
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:43,160
controversy there, but that goes
on and on and on that you see, 

1306
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,320
God, I've got so many things in.
Like there's a little orange 

1307
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:47,240
book there, and that's a book 
first. 

1308
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:49,200
Of all that's the most 
impressive thing that you're 

1309
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:51,200
able to point to the book, I 
can. 

1310
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:52,080
See it? 
I can see it. 

1311
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,640
But I know it's that that book 
is by Harrowood Carrington and 

1312
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:57,360
it's just called Houdini and 
Doyle. 

1313
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,080
And it's about the the 
relationship and the back and 

1314
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,400
forth between Houdini and Sir 
Arthur Conan Doyle. 

1315
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,280
And it's not as straightforward 
as some of the the people online

1316
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:10,040
make out that Doyle was deluded 
and Houdini got it right there. 

1317
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:14,560
There was a lot of personal loss
with Houdini and his mother and 

1318
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,120
especially wasn't satisfied 
unless a medium came forward 

1319
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,520
with a message from his mother. 
So that really pushes out the 

1320
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,880
window any other kind of contact
from other people that could be 

1321
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,840
verified, right. 
It sounds like Konador was 

1322
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:29,040
staying quite level headed that 
any medium should really just be

1323
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:30,800
presenting satisfactory 
information. 

1324
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,200
But eventually they fell out. 
But they really were a good 

1325
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:36,320
working team, but you had to 
really push those personal kind 

1326
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:38,160
of losses and biases out the 
way. 

1327
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,360
And I don't think they could 
reconcile those. 

1328
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:42,840
And it's the same with Freud and
Jung, how they went their 

1329
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:44,640
separate ways. 
Sure, both both end up being 

1330
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,240
fascinated in parapsychology, 
but they really ended up kind of

1331
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:51,800
destroying their friendship. 
Hopefully I won't have an US, 

1332
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,360
John. 
Hopefully, hopefully not, Right.

1333
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,080
You know, what's really 
interesting is like, it's funny 

1334
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:04,000
because I deal what I deal with 
in my field, if you will, with 

1335
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,760
so much. 
I'm trying to think of the right

1336
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,560
word for it. 
Like, for example, you said it 

1337
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,200
before, like all of a sudden a 
bird flies by or a butterfly 

1338
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,960
goes by and people are like, oh,
it's a spirit. 

1339
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:17,760
And I'm like, no, it's nature. 
Yeah, that's just a butterfly 

1340
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,319
going by, right. 
So when I'm doing my thing and I

1341
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:28,319
am also scoop super skeptical of
the apps that I use for not only

1342
01:08:28,319 --> 01:08:30,439
human tampering, but human 
error. 

1343
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,720
OK, pet audio, pareidolia, 
things like that. 

1344
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:38,840
The chaos that you speak of, cuz
that chaos is everywhere while I

1345
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,040
do this, even if I'm walking in 
the cemetery. 

1346
01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:45,479
But there's certain things I ask
in it and it falls short. 

1347
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:46,840
A lot of people don't realize 
it. 

1348
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:51,520
When I go up to like a plot and 
I asked for, you know, spirits, 

1349
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,640
may we have a conversation? 
You know, I get a reply. 

1350
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:56,520
Yes. 
OK, spirit, what's your name? 

1351
01:08:57,399 --> 01:09:00,640
You know, without saying the 
spirit's name, You know, the app

1352
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:04,680
in question that I'm using is on
my wrist, usually pointed up at 

1353
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:09,040
the sky or in back of me. 
It's not at the grave. 

1354
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:12,000
So there's no visual context to 
the phone either. 

1355
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:16,279
And then a name comes through. 
That's the sort of viable 

1356
01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:20,000
evidence that I look at. 
And that is why usually if I 

1357
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,560
don't hear a name or it's some 
nonsense, I just keep it moving 

1358
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:27,279
because it's all, you know, just
it's, it's regardless whether 

1359
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:30,359
it's something coming through, 
whether it's radio or whether 

1360
01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:33,520
it's, you know, something else. 
It's not viable to what I'm 

1361
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:36,399
doing at the time. 
You know, it holds no, no worth 

1362
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:39,600
to me. 
So, but everything you were 

1363
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,520
saying, just like, you know, 
it's, it's, it's great to know 

1364
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,960
that I'm applying those, you 
know, tactics. 

1365
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:52,000
But you're not totally 100% 
crazy that you're not a complete

1366
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,480
lunatic and there are people 
studied and learned that have 

1367
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:59,320
that are doing it in a much 
different way and field work 

1368
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:01,960
like you are. 
But yes, it's great, man. 

1369
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,760
It really is. 
Wow, thank you so much. 

1370
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,840
We kept it for. 
Over an hour I I hope you had a 

1371
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,400
good time here and. 
Brian, you too, man. 

1372
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,880
Thank you for yeah, thank. 
You. 

1373
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,480
Professor Cal Cooper, everybody,
telephone calls from the dead. 

1374
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:20,800
Pick it up. 
We'll, we'll put a link to it in

1375
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,600
our in our BIOS here for this 
when we drop this. 

1376
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:26,720
That's it, man. 
Thank you so much. 

1377
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,880
You're welcome. 
Hopefully I will be doing an 

1378
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:32,720
audio version of the book soon. 
People have been kind of poking 

1379
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,400
me and nudging me like mad to do
it, so soon they'll be. 

1380
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,040
You can go to sleep listening to
the book chapter by chapter, 

1381
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:41,360
hopefully. 
Yeah, man, that's that. 

1382
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:43,080
Who wouldn't want to listen to 
this voice? 

1383
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:44,360
Make sure you got a picture. 
On there. 

1384
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,760
Have it read it to you at night.
It's. 

1385
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:49,240
Like can be in bed with you at 
night and it's just. 

1386
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:51,000
Like in a bath and. 
That's it. 

1387
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:54,320
It's like you wouldn't want to 
be serenaded, gentlemen. 

1388
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:56,200
Awesome. 
Anyway. 

1389
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:57,920
All right, man. 
Thank you so much. 

1390
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:02,880
So how do we explain the voice 
message from Brian's mother who 

1391
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,840
passed away? 
Technical glitches like delayed 

1392
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:08,880
delivery, voicemail sync issues,
or even phone number 

1393
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,120
reassignments can sometimes 
bring old messages back to life.

1394
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:14,960
There's also the slim chance of 
a heartless prank. 

1395
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:18,320
Psychologically, grief in memory
can play tricks on us, but in 

1396
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:21,360
Brian's case, the evidence would
rule out both grief driven 

1397
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:23,600
perception and mistaken 
identity. 

1398
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,320
Is it paranormal? 
A spirit manipulating 

1399
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:29,560
electronics or sending messages 
through residual energy? 

1400
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:31,960
Maybe. 
Either way, we are left with a 

1401
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:34,000
mystery. 
Was it a fluke of technology or 

1402
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,560
something more? 
At Splintered Spirits, we'd like

1403
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,120
to think it's something more. 
We want to once again thank 

1404
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:42,160
Professor Callum Cooper for 
joining us and Brian for sharing

1405
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,800
such a personal story. 
Be sure to like, follow, and 

1406
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,560
subscribe to Splintered Spirits 
wherever you get your podcasts 

1407
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,600
and on all our socials. 
If you have a ghost story or 

1408
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:52,560
evidence that you want us to 
review, visit 

1409
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,720
ourwebsite@splinteredspirits.com
to submit. 

1410
01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:01,280
That's Splintered spirits.com. 
Until next time, stay curious.