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Hello beautiful humans, and 
welcome to the Mental Wellness 

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Wake Up Show, a weekly podcast 
where growthminded, creative 

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people come to learn best 
practices from both spirituality

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and psychology that create 
lasting wellbeing. 

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I am your host, mental Wellness 
expert, improvised acting 

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teacher, therapist, and coach 
Dawn McMillan. 

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Let's get to it. 
Welcome you gorgeous people. 

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Welcome, welcome. 
We are going to jump right in. 

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I am having an interesting 
experience at the moment as I 

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record this for you. 
My cough has been kind of bad. 

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Today we are experiencing some 
poor air where I am. 

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I've got a fly buzzing around, 
but we're just going to go with 

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it. 
Why? 

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Because the present moment is 
always the only moment. 

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So let's enjoy it. 
OK, enniogram, we are doing the 

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enniogram. 
So if you're just joining us, 

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you can jump right in with us to
explore this 9 pointed wisdom 

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system. 
But and also feel free to hop on

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back and listen to the whole 
series because they they are 

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independent. 
But part of what we're doing 

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here is we're connect all of the
enniogram types. 

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So the Enniogram is 9 points on 
a circle, and it has been my 

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contention for a long time that 
this wisdom system isn't about 

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navel gazing and justifying why 
you are how you are. 

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It's not meant to be a 
personality thing only because 

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we're too complex, too 
delightful, too mysterious, too 

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amazing to fit into any single 
description. 

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Rather, what the Enneagram is 
showing us is where we are, how 

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we tend to behave, and it gives 
us all these wonderful 

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descriptions of all the other 
personality types and how we can

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relate to them externally. 
And what I am about is helping 

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us understand how to integrate 
them internally. 

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That's what we're up to. 
And if you're here for the first

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time, one, I'm delighted. 
And two, let's jump in My 

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continuing listeners. 
I adore you, You're here and you

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don't have to be. 
So thank you, Okay. 

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So let's jump in. 
All right, So what do we call 

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the Enneagram 5? 
The Enneagram 5 is the thinker, 

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the innovator, the observer, the
specialist, the radical, the 

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expert, the observer. 
So as we're moving into 

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Enneagrams 5-6 and seven, you 
will recall the Enneagram 8-9 

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and one are considered the body 
center or the gut center. 

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These people are more likely to 
be kinesthetic learners, to go 

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with their gut to feel things 
and and be drawn into action 

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that way. 
And a lot of the ways that they 

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end up being characterized as 
8-9 or one is in how they 

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respond to anger. 
And you'll recall that twos, 

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threes, and fours are considered
our feeling center or our heart 

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center. 
These are within more 

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emotionally driven types, and 
twos, threes, and fours are 

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often categorized around their 
sense of shame. 

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And anagram fives, at their 
best, are analytical, 

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persevering, sensitive, wise, 
objective, perceptive, 

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selfcontained. 
Fives, at their worst, are 

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intellectually arrogant, stingy,
stubborn, distant, critical of 

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others, unassertive and 
negative. 

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Ouch. 
Oh yeah, okay. 

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So let's talk about my people, 
the enniogram 5. 

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So a lot of people are surprised
to learn that I'm an enniogram 

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5. 
They're like, you're a goofball 

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#1, you're an actor #2, and you 
seem to have social skills. 

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What do you mean you're an 
enniogram 5? 

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And that is just a reminder that
you can't always type people by 

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how they appear. 
So much of the enniogram is 

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about what motivates you from 
the interior, so you can't 

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always tell. 
So let's talk some more about 

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this iniogram Type 5. 
The investigator Basic fear of 

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being helpless, useless, 
incapable or overwhelmed. 

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The basic desire is to be 
capable and competent. 

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And the superego message? 
Remember superego ego made. 

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These are our Freudian 
categories of the interior of a 

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human being. the IT being our 
impulses and urges, the ego 

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being their personality and the 
Super ego being our conscience 

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or the voice of society. 
So any gram fives that super ego

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messages you are good or okay if
you have mastered something. 

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So in the Reso Hudson system 
they talk about Enneagram fives,

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the intense cerebral type, 
perceptive, innovative, 

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secretive and isolated. 
So here's a quote from an 

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Enneagram 5 that they 
interviewed for this book. 

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And he says this being A5 means 
always needing to learn to take 

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an information about the world a
day without learning as like a 

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day without sunshine as a five. 
I want to have an understanding 

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of life. 
I like having a theoretical 

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explanation about why things 
happen as they do. 

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This understanding makes me feel
in charge and in control. 

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I most often learn from a 
distance as an observer and not 

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as a participant. 
Sometimes it seems that 

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understanding life is as good as
living it. 

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It is a difficult journey to 
learn that life must be lived 

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and not just studied. 
Wow, totally relatable. 

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So one of the things to keep in 
mind if you are in a 

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relationship with an NA AGRAM 5,
one of the things that NA AGRAM 

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Fives are challenged with is 
moving into action. 

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Any Gram Fives love to live 
inside their head, their books, 

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their data, their information. 
You know, I will raise my hand 

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and confess to being an 
information hoarder. 

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Like I love to know things. 
They don't have to be useful 

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things. 
I just love to know things. 

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And any Gram Fives are often we 
have our special interests, as 

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the ADHD kids like to call it. 
We get our special interests, 

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and we can sometimes get really 
obsessed and really go deep with

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something. 
One thing you might notice about

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an NIAGRAM 5 is that if we're 
focused on something, the rest 

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of the world is dead to us, dead
to us. 

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So if you are in a relationship 
with an NIAGRAM 5 and you think 

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they're ignoring you, they're 
probably just thinking real 

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hard. 
So what is an NIAGRAM 5 level of

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development? 
Because what? 

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Remember, we're looking at 
finding out where we are or our 

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loved ones are. 
And then all of us, regardless 

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of our primary way of focusing 
at the world, learning how to 

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integrate the gifts of the NA 
agram 5 so that we can all grow 

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so unhealthy. 
NA agram 5 at a level 9. 

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Seeking oblivion Self 
annihilation Feeling that they 

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can no longer defend themselves 
from their pain and terror, 

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unhealthy fives want to escape 
from reality. 

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In some cases they attempt to 
accomplish this through 

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psychotic breaks or schizoid 
withdrawal. 

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They may also try to escape 
through suicide. 

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It could be theorized at the 
Unabomber was an Anniagram 5 So 

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proud. 
OK, so level 8 Horrified. 

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Delirious At a level 8, 
Anniagram 5 Fives feel so small 

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and helpless that almost 
everything becomes ominous to 

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them. 
They're filled with dark 

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fantasies and strange 
perceptions. 

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They resist all help, shrinking 
away from people into feverish 

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nightmares and insomnia. 
They cannot stop their 

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overheated minds. 
Sidebar, there's this Turkish TV

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show, I think it's called Hot 
Head maybe. 

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And it's about this virus that 
makes people's heads get super 

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hot. 
It's really cool. 

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If you like Turkish TV shows, 
OK, level 7. 

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Remember 7-8 and nine in this 
system, the Rizzo Hudson system.

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We're talking about really 
unhealthy versions of an NA 

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AGRAM 5. 
Unhealthy fives fear that they 

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are incapable of finding a place
in the world. 

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And this may be true. 
To gain some security, they cut 

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off all connections with the 
world, treating into an isolated

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and increasingly empty world. 
They reject all but the most 

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basic needs, but are still 
plagued by fears. 

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So I always imagine, you know 
you're driving cross country in 

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the US it's it's a big country. 
You can drive cross country and 

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much of it is empty and you'll 
see like some little house or 

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trailer like out in the middle 
of nowhere. 

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And I always think, who are 
those people? 

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Probably an NE AGRAM 5. 
I'm just saying, OK, moving on 

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up to an averagely developed any
of Gram 5 and so these these 

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levels are not rigid. 
I wish that they were that you 

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could evolve to one and never 
fall down into a lower level. 

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However, when we are stressed we
can sometimes devolve. 

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We If you're in this community, 
we are seeking to love ourselves

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as we are and continue to evolve
and expand. 

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However, sometimes we can 
backtrack a little bit. 

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And that, my beloved human 
friends, is no big deal, just 

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means you're human, OK? 
Level 6 Niagram fives are 

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extreme and provocative. 
Fives fear that others will 

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threaten the niche they have 
been creating, so they try to 

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fend people off. 
They resent the apparent 

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confidence and calm of others 
and enjoy subverting their 

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beliefs. 
Their own ideas can be bizarre 

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and disturbing, and they are 
scornful of those who cannot 

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understand them. 
You've run into this person on 

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the Internet, I guarantee you. 
Guarantee you they're the what 

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abouters. 
And then they talk about some 

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conspiracy theory that even 
other conspiracy theorists think

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is odd. 
Okay. 

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So moving up Level 5, Level 5, 
any gram. 

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Fives are detached and 
preoccupied. 

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Five is worried that the needs 
of others will distract them 

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from their projects, so they 
shut out intrusions by 

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intensifying their mental 
activity. 

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They minimize their needs, 
become high strung, cerebral and

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secretive. 
They spend more time alone 

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speculating and elaborating on 
alternative realities. 

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And so at this level, remember 
when I said that an Anneagram 5,

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if they're really focusing on 
something, they may not actually

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hear you. 
It's kind of like a superpower 

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of an enniogram 5. 
And at this level 5, it's being 

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turned into a super fault, you 
know, the minimizing their 

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needs, right. 
We're talking, not showering, 

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forgetting to go to the 
bathroom, that kind of stuff and

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being really immersed in a 
mental world. 

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OK, Level 4, conceptualizing, 
preparing. 

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So this is the top of the 
average Enniogram 5 and when you

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think about unhealthy average 
and healthy, I don't think that 

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we can divide up the population 
of any of gram fives into thirds

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or any of these. 
It's going, there's going to be 

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different levels of distribution
throughout any particular 

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society or culture. 
The other thing to keep in mind 

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is that the any gram numbers are
not distributed equally. 

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For example, my people, the any 
of gram fives are very small 

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part of the population. 
It's believed that much of the 

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American population, or any of 
gram sixes for example, so on 

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and so forth, just something 
that you a rabbit hole that you 

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can go down. 
If you're a nanny or Graham 5 

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and you love rabbit holes, OK, 
where was I? 

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Level 4? 
Conceptualizing and preparing 

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fives begin to fear that their 
skills are insufficient and that

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they need to prepare more before
they can take their place in the

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world. 
They feel unsure of themselves 

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in many areas, preferring to 
inhabit the safety of their 

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minds. 
They study, practice, and 

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collect more knowledge, 
resources, and skills. 

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So one of the weaknesses of 
being in any Agram 5 is the 

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ability to research, right? 
So I noticed this in myself. 

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I love to collect 
certifications. 

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I love to collect degrees. 
I can research the heck out of 

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something. 
But what any agram fives are 

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challenged to do is to move in 
to a bias toward action. 

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That's the growth edge for any 
agram fives out of your head and

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into your body. 
And one way that shows up is the

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enniogram system can be grouped 
in many different ways. 

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Right now we're doing the bird's
eye view of grouping by body 

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centers. 
But another way that enniograms 

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are grouped are how they sort of
shift into behaving like other 

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Enniogram types, whether they're
well resourced or stressed. 

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So a well resourced Enneagram 5 
is actually going to move into 

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being a little bit like an 
Enneagram 8, right? 

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And Enneagram eights take 
action. 

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They're very action oriented. 
Sometimes it gets them in 

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trouble, right, because they're 
going to go with their gut, 

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They're going to jump into 
action. 

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They're going to make things 
happen. 

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So as an Enneagram 5 becomes 
more integrated, they're going 

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to bring in more of that 
Enneagram 8 energy. 

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OK, now we're moving into 
Healthy Woohoo. 

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So the Level 3 of Healthy 
Anagram 5 is focused and 

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innovative. 
Fives reinforce their self-image

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by mastering a body of knowledge
or skills that will make them 

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competent and strong. 
Not wishing to compete with 

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others, they prefer to explore 
new ideas and forms. 

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Their tinkering can result in 
profoundly original ideas, 

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inventions, and art. 
Whoop Whoop okay. 

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Moving up level 2 Healthy 
anagram 5 is observant and 

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perceptive. 
Fives focus on the environment 

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so they can feel confident to 
function in it and develop 

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skills to defend against their 
basic fear self-image. 

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I am smart, curious and 
independent and then moving up 

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to a level. 
One well integrated, healthy and

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Eogram 5 is going to be 
participating and visionary. 

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Fives let go of the belief that 
they are separate from the 

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environment and outside observer
and are thus able to confidently

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engage in life. 
They also paradoxically achieve 

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their basic desire to be capable
and competent and able to live 

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in the world. 
They then become clearminded, 

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knowing, profound and 
compassionate. 

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So you can see that this this 
tendency that an Agram fives 

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have to think and analyze and 
observe and deeply explore when 

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it's used in a holistic way and 
when it's used in collaboration 

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with the environment, meaning 
the people and the things around

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them, you can actually have an 
annagram 5 be a real 

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contribution to others. 
So if you are an nnagram 5, 

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first of all holla. 
Second of all, your your social 

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role is the expert and what you 
are guided to do is to connect, 

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to connect. 
Do not minimize your needs. 

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You have a body run, jump, yoga,
bike, hoop, whatever you need to

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do, use your body. 
Because it is so easy for us to 

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get lost in our heads. 
And I know it's fun in there, 

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it's fun in there, but come out 
into the real world. 

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There's a quote from from an 
Anagram 5 here in the Reeso 

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Hudson book, which is I don't 
need much, but I need my space. 

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Yeah. 
So over here in the The Baron 

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Wigeli book, what I like about 
being a 5. 

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Standing back and viewing life 
objectively. 

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Coming to a thorough 
understanding. 

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Perceiving causes and defects. 
My sense of integrity. 

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Doing what I think is right and 
not being influenced by social 

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pressure. 
Not being caught up in material 

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possessions and status. 
Being calm in a crisis. 

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That's my superpower. 
What's hard about being a 5? 

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Being slow to put my knowledge 
and insights out in the world? 

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Feeling bad when I act defensive
or like a know it all? 

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Oh my God. 
Middle school, Junior high 

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school. 
Me. 

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Not so good. 
Being pressured to be with 

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people when I don't want to be. 
What's hard about being A5? 

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Watching others with better 
social skills but less 

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intelligence or technical skill 
do better professionally, or 

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having trouble expressing some 
of my thoughts succinctly. 

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So that's our aniagram or 
aniagram 5 So I'm just flipping 

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through my my books to see if 
there's any other little juicy 

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tidbits. 
OK, here's a good quote. 

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GK Chesterton At the back of our
brains, so to speak, there's a 

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forgotten blaze or a burst of 
astonishment at our own 

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existence. 
The object of the artistic and 

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spiritual life is to dig for the
submerged sunrise of wonder. 

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Ooh, that's good. 
Oh, this is getting along. 

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Of course. 
I'm like, it's me. 

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Yeah, it's me. 
So our invitation for all of us 

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is it's about the balance of 
internal and external. 

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So if you are not an NIAGRAM 5, 
what you can borrow from the 

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niagram 5 is that moment of 
observation and seeking 

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understanding before reacting to
explore what is with your head, 

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heart and body and then react 
then respond. 

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So in cognitive behavioral 
therapy, all the behavioral 

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therapies. 
We talk about the space between 

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stimulus and response before the
cause and the effect. 

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There is a space, and if you can
insert your attention and your 

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awareness and your consciousness
into that space, you no longer 

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have to be triggered into 
behaving in ways that don't 

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serve you. 
And that's a gift you can get 

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from the Aneagram 5. 
Learn, observe, consider, think,

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analyze, and then integrate that
with your heart, wisdom, your 

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body, wisdom, and all the other 
gifts that you uniquely bring to

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the world. 
All right. 

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Oh, there you go. 
So next we're going to be diving

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into the Enniogram 6, which is 
super cool because eniogram 

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sixes show up in two different 
types. 

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I know, it almost makes me think
there should be like a six and a

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six prime or something like 
that. 

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If you've listened this far, 
you're awesome. 

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And I really feel compelled to 
know, to tell you. 

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And you know I know because as 
an anagram 5 I have the research

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with the footnotes. 
OK, so hear me now. 

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Believe me later, you're 
wonderful. 

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Seriously, I want you to go look
at yourself in the mirror and 

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just be in awe of yourself. 
Think of everything you lived 

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through and here you are, doing 
your best with what you have. 

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And let me tell you, you look 
good while you're at it. 

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You are whole. 
You are perfect, you are 

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complete, and you are worthy and
deserving of all good things. 

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Until next time.
