1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,200 I really think we, and when I say we, I'm thinking about 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,560 organizing spaces and specifically actually, I would 3 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:12,600 think about queer, trans, racialized, poor migrant folks 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,840 who are at the forefront of organizing spaces and movements. 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,880 We come together because it's out of our survival, It's 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,280 urgent. We need to organize and then we 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,760 don't have any relational scaffolding for the most 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,520 intimate parts of our lives. We don't. 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,080 And so coming into organizing spaces with no transformation, 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,200 you know, conflict transformation skills. 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,440 And so I realized it's not that we lack strategy that make us 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:48,080 fail, It's the lack of relational capacity and skills 13 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,800 that make us fail. We can't deal with conflicts we 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,440 can't deal with. I don't agree. 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,800 For a lot of us, we come into the spaces thanking, hoping for 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,320 so much. We're thinking, OK, this is 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,480 horrible outside, but maybe in this little corner late in the 18 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,440 on Thursday night, I'm going to be in a space where people are 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,520 not sexist, racist, transphobic, fat phobic, fan phobic, you 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,360 know, like all the things. And you realize, yes, we are 21 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,880 actually. The disappointment is huge. 22 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,960 And trust me, I understand that, you know, there was really this 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:30,480 realization for me of so much of the work is urgent and I see it. 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:37,800 And also maybe abolition is really the work of being 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,600 becoming a death doula for the empire within as well as, you 26 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,480 know, holding space for the other person next to you who's 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,360 also trying to burn down the empire inside of them. 28 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,760 Hello and welcome to Embodied Astrology. 29 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,400 My name is Renee and you are listening to an episode of an 30 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,600 edited conversation between myself and Care for Erotics of 31 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,400 Liberation. Care is a non binary 32 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,080 abolitionist, somatic practitioner, artist and doula 33 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,800 who works on remembering embodied experiences of all 34 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,720 connection, miracles, and care. Their work blooms at the 35 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,920 intersection of Black interiority, somatic memory, and 36 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:35,400 queer intimacies. We held a live event for April 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,840 27th's Taurus New Moon where we talked about Kerr's work with 38 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,760 collective liberation practices, the relationship between Eros 39 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,800 and accountability, and how to free ourselves from avoidance 40 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,840 patterns so that we can communicate about and receive 41 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,520 what we truly want and need. Embodied Astrology hosts 42 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,120 astrologically timed community conversations with astrologers, 43 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,800 artists, activists, and others who are working to create beauty 44 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,760 and well-being in the world. To join us, live in 45 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,760 conversation, and take part in events like these in the future, 46 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,520 make sure to sign up for our newsletter or create a free 47 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,680 membership in our virtual community space. 48 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,920 For those of you who are interested in diving deeper into 49 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:17,200 the intersections of astrology, embodiment, healing, arts, and 50 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,680 life practices, check out our paid memberships which include 51 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,720 access to our weekly somatic Space classes where we work with 52 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,120 current astrology through movement and meditation, monthly 53 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,560 Astro tea time mini workshops, and our ongoing chart reading 54 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,640 study groups. To learn more about care and to 55 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:36,080 find and follow them online, check out the links in the show 56 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,760 notes. To learn more about me, Renee, 57 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,320 and Embodied Astrology, head over to embodiedastrology.com. 58 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,080 If you loved today's episode, let us know why in the comments 59 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,840 and please don't forget to click the like button and make sure to 60 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,640 follow and subscribe to our podcast for future episodes. 61 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,040 To help support and sustain the work we do, please share it with 62 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,720 your friends and networks and consider making a one time or 63 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,720 recurring donation. Your support means everything. 64 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,240 From the bottom of our hearts, thank you. 65 00:04:12,940 --> 00:04:16,620 Welcome, everybody. Thank you for being here. 66 00:04:17,660 --> 00:04:21,779 Good to see your faces. Good to see your names, and 67 00:04:21,779 --> 00:04:25,420 happy New Moon. We are gathered today for the 68 00:04:25,420 --> 00:04:30,300 Taurus New Moon, and I'm so grateful to be gathering here 69 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:34,900 with you and with care. Thank you so much care for 70 00:04:34,900 --> 00:04:39,920 joining us across many time differences and many miles 71 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,160 before we even get into like, who are you and where are you 72 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:45,720 coming from and what are you bringing with you? 73 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,920 I wonder if you might talk to us a little bit about the name of 74 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,360 this event, which is also the name of your work, Erotics of 75 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,040 Liberation. This is such a compelling 76 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,080 grouping of words. What does this mean to you? 77 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,440 Where did this come from? Honestly, I wanted to have 78 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,840 erotics of abolition if I'm being completely honest with 79 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:10,360 y'all, but it was used before by a black fan and I'm not a huge 80 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,360 fan of taking work from black people. 81 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:20,520 That happens enough. So I decided to go with Erotics 82 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,760 of Liberation. Liberation is obvious. 83 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,760 This is the point of my work. And the erotics part was just, 84 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:33,360 you know, I've been in leftist spaces for so long and we're so 85 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:40,000 fucking serious. We're so serious and so hard and 86 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:47,480 so constrained with the work of fighting fascism. 87 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,680 And of course, Audrey Dodd is a huge part of, you know, the 88 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,600 inspiration of malpractice erotics, as in, you know, really 89 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,800 listening to what is there in the body and understanding that 90 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,920 if we're fighting against systems of extraction, of 91 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,000 oppression of the nation that really are here to kill us and 92 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,800 kill life at large on planet Earth, including planet Earth, 93 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,000 then embodiment and erotics should be the point of the work. 94 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:20,720 I'm not here to suffer. And I want to do this work to 95 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,320 access joy and access. It was like the embodiment of 96 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:29,600 being in my body. So, and also because honestly, 97 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,360 anything erotic or pleasure oriented has always been very 98 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,040 hard for me to access. I believe in cast spelling and I 99 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,240 do think embodiment in somatics is just cast spending is you, 100 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:43,600 and you talked about this running just before is, you 101 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,760 know, if you you know what you don't want, that's great. 102 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,840 But in somatics, I'm always going to ask you to go towards 103 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:52,920 what is it that you want then? Because then it's going to set 104 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,640 the tone to attracting more of that and building more of that, 105 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,520 creating capacity for more of that. 106 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:04,240 And I found that in lefty spaces, we were. 107 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,560 I became really good specific in Berlin, which I don't live there 108 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,680 anymore, but I became very, very good at naming what's wrong. 109 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,440 And it's great, but it's just not enough. 110 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:24,360 So that's where it came from. Thank you for sharing that your 111 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,440 your work and your path of practice. 112 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,600 Can you tell us a little bit about where has it, has it 113 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,240 wound? Where have you wandered in your 114 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,640 work, in your path of practice? And I want to just say that I 115 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,920 feel like so many of us in our work are really working with so 116 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,320 many components of our lives that have not been about jobs. 117 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:53,840 So I'm curious, in your journey up until now, what have you been 118 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,720 gathering? What are you bringing with you 119 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,400 into this space? And how has astrology been a 120 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,040 part of this? I'm bringing everything. 121 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,600 I'm bringing everything. I mean, there's no separating. 122 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:12,280 I mean, I did a lot of jobs, you know, but like to survive as a 123 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,920 student and as a young person. But after I finished my studies, 124 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,680 I got just one job and I was fired. 125 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:24,560 So because I said no. So I'm really lucky in that that 126 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,760 I just know I would never fit there because I, I just do not 127 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,720 believe in just leaving parts of you to a place where you spend 128 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,799 most of your day. That makes absolutely no sense. 129 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,720 I mean, that makes sense in spaces that we ask you to be 130 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,360 completely disembodied and then you realise down the line, oh, 131 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,360 I've been completely dissociated for the last 50 years for a 132 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,640 pension or if you're lucky, my sudden return was a good point 133 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,400 for me to. I was doing a lot of things. 134 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,200 I've always been doing a lot of things. 135 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,720 I'm sad rising. I my the corners of my child are 136 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,840 mutable. I get bored very easily. 137 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,680 So I love a distraction. Give me a distraction, give me 138 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:04,960 something else. Give me another tool, give me 139 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,560 another point of view. I love it. 140 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,800 When I arrived in my sudden return, I was doing so many 141 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,360 different things, including astrology, and people were 142 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,360 telling me like there are too many things you, you know, you 143 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,800 have to pick one. I really felt like yes, sudden 144 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:27,440 was asking me, well, maybe you just, you know, try to pick a 145 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,360 little bit of a direction and my direction was healing so that I 146 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,680 could it was my way to still you can do anything. 147 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:37,600 Healing can be, you know, you can do art, you can do 148 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,000 organizing, you can do strategy, you can do tablet, you can do 149 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,320 anything you want. And that was my way to still 150 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,200 bring a lot of things. And I prefer this because the 151 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,400 tool read doesn't matter. I think it was much more about 152 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,280 the direction for me that was important. 153 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,560 But astrology, I came to it because of COVID. 154 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,400 Honestly, I felt like, OK, it's the end of the world. 155 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:03,840 For once in my life, I'm going to invest in something that I'm 156 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,000 not going to get money from. I'm just going to learn because 157 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,320 I want to. Of course, my business mind, I 158 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,040 actually became an astrologer, but at first it was just really 159 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,000 like, I want to learn astrology. I've been, you know, diving into 160 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:23,640 astrology for years now and COVID just really felt like, you 161 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,600 know what, fuck it, I'm just going to do it. 162 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,720 So that's how astrology came to me. 163 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:35,000 And I think for a lot of queer folks, although, you know, the 164 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,720 skies have been completely also colonised and astrology is a 165 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,680 huge place of also of colonisation in different ways. 166 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,720 I think it's the reason why queer folks love astrology is 167 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,000 because it is a way to relate to ourselves in a way that doesn't 168 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,720 depend on systems of oppression and domination. 169 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,800 Also, that's not completely true, but I think you know what 170 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,880 I'm saying. So it's a way to meet each other 171 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,920 and meet ourselves in a way that is a little bit not completely 172 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:06,120 outside, but maybe a little bit differently positioned inside of 173 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,920 the system of the systems of domination that we know. 174 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,480 And that was enough for me at the time. 175 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,080 So that's that's how I came to it. 176 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,080 We first encountered each other, I think several years ago. 177 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,560 You had written to embodied astrology and we just, we just 178 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:27,280 settled on our programming for the year. 179 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,280 And then like a week later I got this e-mail from you basically 180 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,200 being like, this is me. This is what I do. 181 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,160 I was like, shoot. And I was so compelled by what 182 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:37,720 you're offering and what you're doing. 183 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,240 And over the last couple years, it's really been exciting to 184 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,960 watch your practice grow. And I, I know that you have made 185 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,200 a shift and that shift has been from doing one-on-one client 186 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,240 work into collective care practice. 187 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,520 And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit to us about 188 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,960 the liberation practice field and how your practice has been 189 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,360 changing as you've been moving from working with people 190 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,040 one-on-one to working with collective? 191 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:12,360 Yeah, so I, I've was working. I was living in Berlin for nine 192 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:13,480 years. It's a cycle. 193 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,520 I just moved to Marseille, back to France. 194 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,720 I was born not in Marseille, but I was born and raised in France 195 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,640 until I was 17 or a little bit older, actually early 20s. 196 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,320 And I really loved my time in Berlin. 197 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,800 I was working as a somatic practitioner and seeing clients 198 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,680 one O 1 and I was lucky really. I mean, I've been really lucky 199 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:41,920 because I was working physically. 200 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,280 So I was seeing clients physically one O 1 in a qui 201 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:49,920 entrance health centre that is called Casaqua and that space 202 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,880 was created by trans people of colour. 203 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,840 We were All in all practitioners there. 204 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,720 We were all tin. So trans, intersex, non binary 205 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,640 folks and racialised folks were really at the centre of this 206 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,560 space that was complete. That's still you know, I still 207 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,560 don't know any space like this in Paris. 208 00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:08,240 I don't know any space like this in Marseille. 209 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,280 I don't know any space like this in a lot of spaces that we would 210 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,560 potentially think maybe that would exist. 211 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,520 So talking to all the transports of folks of colour outside of 212 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,320 Berlin, I really realized, wow, this is really lucky, actually. 213 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,200 This is hard. It's getting harder because we 214 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:30,280 have less and less, you know, access to state money for 215 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,040 reasons that you all know. If I was listening just to 216 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:34,800 myself, I would continue one-on-one work. 217 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,280 But when I was listening to my clients and we will really go 218 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,800 down to like the, the, the radical part, like meaning the 219 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,880 roots of the reason why they were coming to see me, we would 220 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,560 always go back to the state. The problem is capitalism. 221 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,000 The problem is that we have to pay rent. 222 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,240 The problem is that we don't have access to health, including 223 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,800 mental health. We don't have access to stable 224 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,200 housing. We don't have access to all 225 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,320 those things. And so first of all, I realized 226 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,920 that as a practitioner, there's very few things that I can do. 227 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:10,440 And also if I really wanted to create long term sustainable 228 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,880 solutions for them, I knew from the bottom of my heart the real 229 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,520 solution is abolition. And so I really thought maybe 230 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,680 hearing work has to be collective because there wasn't 231 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,480 a solution that I can give to them. 232 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:31,080 And I felt more and more that if I would try to give them a 233 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,120 solution, an embodied solution, I would be one of those 234 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,040 therapists that are giving you tools to, you know, deal with 235 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,480 capitalism better, be more productive. 236 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,000 And fuck that from the bottom of my heart. 237 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,840 And I felt that in community work, we don't give each other 238 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,640 tools so much. It's more about building 239 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,920 solidarity and just this mirroring, constant mirroring 240 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,880 that is the root of therapy. Therapy work truly is to have 241 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,320 people be like, yeah, me too. And that only can be really such 242 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,680 a huge source of healing for folks on top of building 243 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,640 capacity for organising so that we can do abolition and burn 244 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,480 everything down. So that was just really the, for 245 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:22,400 me, the point also of what if I would do collective work and 246 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:27,680 make people meet and make them realise this is far from being a 247 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,080 personal thing. The prime one, we do believe 248 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,720 that it's a personal thing. We then believe that the 249 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,840 solutions should be personal too, meaning you should see a 250 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,960 like a practitioner alone. And instead what we could do is 251 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,520 come together and then build collective solutions to 252 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,240 collective problems. So that's how I create 253 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,880 Liberation Practice Field, which is a one year programme for 254 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,760 folks to practice the erratics of liberation, the somatics of 255 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,760 abolition. Collectively. 256 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,800 The goal for me is to absolutely give everything that I know 257 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,720 about somatics and embodiment. And we have also somatic groups 258 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,480 for buy box for white folks. And then people can create their 259 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,040 own somatic groups, meet wherever they are. 260 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,520 There's people all over the world coming to this group. 261 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,520 So This is why I decided to do collective work rather than just 262 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,120 continuing on one-on-one work. Yeah, listening to you, I can 263 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:31,480 really feel the the erratic charge of being in a group, 264 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:37,840 doing that kind of work, the arrows of it, and the difference 265 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,680 in that collective group work than in the one-on-one. 266 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:48,400 And part of what I'm feeling is how much energy there is in the 267 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,720 spaces of difference that you really get to encounter in a 268 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,200 group space. And I'm wondering for you as the 269 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,960 the main organizer of this and kind of the the sun at the 270 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,400 centre of this particular system, how has it been to be in 271 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,960 collaboration in this work of a liberation practice field? 272 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,520 And what have you been learning in the kind of sparks and 273 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,920 friction and, you know, the unknowns of what happens when so 274 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,920 many people come together? I know we, we have like we deal 275 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:26,960 with conflict, that's for sure, which for me as care the person, 276 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,120 it is very healing to deal with conflict in a way that is not, 277 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,280 that doesn't take away our agency and our dignity ever. 278 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:40,640 We can say I don't agree, but we will never, you know, get away 279 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,880 from those 3 core needs that somatics tell us are absolutely, 280 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,720 you know, paramount to us. So safety, dignity, belonging, 281 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,120 those are the three things, the core things that we always go 282 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,120 back to. It's complicated work. 283 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,360 You know, when I did it first, I think 380 people signed up and I 284 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,800 was just like, I'm just JK, kidding. 285 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,280 That was a joke. I don't want to do this. 286 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,320 This is way too many people, you know, this is what they say with 287 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:11,840 power comes great responsibility. 288 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,960 I feel that for sure you're responsible to a same degree for 289 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,880 folks coming into the space. And folks coming into a space 290 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,840 always means potentially heart and harm, especially when 291 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,320 there's, you know, people coming from different races and people 292 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,120 coming from different background, which is totally the 293 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:36,880 case for my program. And so I'm so lucky that I have 294 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,840 an amazing, amazing tech person, an amazing, amazing community 295 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,920 manager person, because I don't know what I would do be doing 296 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,400 without them. I'm very surrounded. 297 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,480 You should never do things alone. 298 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,040 I think. I mean, this is the thing that I 299 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,840 keep saying is why would you be a * when you could be a 300 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,200 constellation? So my goal is always to come 301 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,080 into things and be a constellation. 302 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,600 Yeah. It's been also incredibly 303 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,640 humbling to see that people trust me. 304 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,400 It's been, honestly, it's been life changing. 305 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,640 Like my life will never be the same after this program. 306 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,680 And I, I will continue doing it over years. 307 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,480 Next year's I'm going to continue and, and hopefully I've 308 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,120 learned so much that I'm going to make it much better because 309 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,520 there was no way that I could completely prepare myself to 310 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,120 what was coming to me. But you know, Jupiter was in 311 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,040 Gemini in my 7th House of partnership and relationships. 312 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,040 So a lot of people came into my world and I was like, my Scorpio 313 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,080 moon was just really like, that's too much. 314 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,880 But I dealt with that the best way I knew I could. 315 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:45,560 I don't know, I felt like it was also the moment to just use this 316 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,040 momentum for something important for me. 317 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,680 And so abolitionist numero Uno on my priority list. 318 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:58,080 So I use it this way. So much in what you just said 319 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,200 resonates really deeply for me and how embodied astrology has 320 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,320 come forward and, and what we do here, which is very much around 321 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:10,920 constellation practice and, you know, not being a, a son all the 322 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,240 time, getting to step into that, getting to feel that and embody 323 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,000 that, but also getting to be parts of constellations. 324 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,640 As you were speaking, I was kind of thinking, feeling about the 325 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,400 work of abolition and liberation. 326 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:31,840 And how what you're describing in, you know, this iteration of 327 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,960 your work and next time you're going to do it differently feels 328 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,320 to me very much like life like that's just what we do is, you 329 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,400 know, do our best and then learn from it. 330 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,200 And that brought to mind the concept of Kairos time. 331 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,000 And I you're probably familiar with this, and in case anybody 332 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:55,800 here isn't familiar with this concept, in some esoteric 333 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,040 traditions there are different kinds of time. 334 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,800 And in the tradition of tropical astrology, there are two kinds 335 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,600 of time. And one is Kronos time, which is 336 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:12,160 linear time that, you know, once the past is gone, it's gone and 337 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,880 we're moving forward and it's kind of this March of progress 338 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,320 and time. But then there's Kairos time, 339 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,880 which is time out of time and cyclical time. 340 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,200 And all time is here and what is time? 341 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,160 And we are just experiencing it all in the moment. 342 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,400 And in, in my experience, the work for liberation, the work 343 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,320 for abolition often gets really caught up in Kronos time and 344 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,360 deeply needs Kairos time because so much of what we're trying to 345 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:45,160 do in our transformative process is change the way that we are, 346 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,840 are really. And and a lot of that needs to 347 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,480 deeply hold the past and also the future at the same time. 348 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,880 And then in the present, like you said, especially with groups 349 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,320 of people who are coming together with shared intent and 350 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,760 from really different spaces, our times can collide and there 351 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,400 can be like a lot there. And I, I, I feel curious if you 352 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,280 have some wisdom to offer this group around your own somatic 353 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,840 awakening through this process. You know, this, this idea of 354 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,320 the, of Eros and the erotics of liberation. 355 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,880 What have you been learning through your body about being 356 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,000 together in time and space with people, when the time and space 357 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,520 might also be very charged with a lot that's there? 358 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,120 Yeah. That's the tension that we've 359 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,960 we're always dealing with, all of us is we're so caught up in 360 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,280 responding to the last urgent violent thing. 361 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:50,800 And that's such a good and effective way to control people 362 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,800 because of course it did really shapes you in the shape of 363 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,560 urgency. And when you do this over time, 364 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,720 then, you know, someone comes in and you're left to space, 365 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,680 although just like you, therefore free Palestine and a 366 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,520 free Congo, and they want to burn everything with you and, 367 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,520 you know, love each other, right? 368 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,800 But I don't know, they did something, they said something 369 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,040 that you're like, wait a minute. And so you respond to it also in 370 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,160 the shape of urgency. The reason why I think my work 371 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,080 has been Orient orienting itself towards organizing spaces 372 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,320 specifically, I always talk about conflict and organizing 373 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,520 spaces is because of that. I've seen so many organizing 374 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,640 spaces being built since October 2023 for office reasons and then 375 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,600 just collapse in a second because I really think we, and 376 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,280 when I say we, I'm thinking about organizing spaces and 377 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,360 specifically actually, I would think about queer trends, 378 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,400 racialized, poor, migrant folks who are at the forefront of 379 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,440 organizing spaces and movements. We come together because it's 380 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,080 out of our survival. It's urgent. 381 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:07,360 We need to organize and then we don't have any relational 382 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:11,800 scaffolding for the most intimate parts of our lives. 383 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,640 We don't. And so coming into organizing 384 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,680 spaces with no transformation, you know, conflict 385 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,480 transformation skills. And so I realized it's not that 386 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,800 we lack strategy that make us fail, It's the lack of 387 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,640 relational capacity and skills that make us fail. 388 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,240 We can't deal with conflicts we can't deal with. 389 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,760 I don't agree. For a lot of us, we come into 390 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,920 the spaces thanking, hoping for so much. 391 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,840 We're thinking, OK, this is horrible outside, but maybe in 392 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,640 this little corner late in the on Thursday night, I'm going to 393 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,400 be in a space where people are not sexist, racist, transphobic, 394 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,320 fat phobic, fan phobic, you know, like all the things. 395 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,320 And you realize, yes, we are actually. 396 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,960 The disappointment is huge. And trust me, I understand that. 397 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:09,280 You know, there was really this realization for me of so much of 398 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:17,840 the work is urgent and I see it. And also maybe abolition is 399 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,960 really the work of being becoming a death doula for the 400 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,760 empire within, as well as, you know, holding space for the 401 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,760 other person next to you who's also trying to burn down the 402 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,480 empire inside of them and not at the same speed. 403 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,600 You know, for some people, they will still still say stuff and 404 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,000 you're like, wait, what did you say? 405 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,240 And you have to be like, yeah, they're not on the same train. 406 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,320 And just like you are potentially super so for another 407 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,680 person. And so that was just, you know, 408 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,960 for me, it's still very much a revelation that of course, we 409 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,480 have to organize and we have to challenge, if not, you know, 410 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,960 abolish our governments and all of these things. 411 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,360 And also a huge part of the work is our own working side. 412 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,280 Care. How do you how do you centre 413 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:17,600 care like in in you and your body Like when you are getting 414 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,760 ready to go into a meeting and when you are planning and 415 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,520 strategizing and thinking about the actions you want to take? 416 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,200 What does it feel like to centre care as a? 417 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:34,560 Practice, It's always saying the thing that Alicia, you told us 418 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,800 about that just before we started the life, but saying the 419 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:44,720 thing that maybe nobody expects or you know, for example, if I 420 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:52,240 hire someone for something, there is a huge power dynamics. 421 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,040 I'm the one paying you. You need this money to survive 422 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,800 under racial capitalism. And so potentially you will be 423 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,920 scared to say some things to me or you will at least not maybe 424 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,760 scared, but at least you will kind of understand that, you 425 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,920 know, we don't we just, it's just there's power dynamics. 426 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,200 It's just we can't get out of them. 427 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:15,520 And so replacing consent as much as possible, you know, which is 428 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,000 really liberation framework towards just punching back. 429 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,760 You know, it's not that we're going to be here because I'm 430 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,120 still hiring you for a project potentially. 431 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:30,760 So also wanting to evade the fact that there is a power 432 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,960 dynamic between us is just as harmful as, you know, the power 433 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,760 dynamic itself potentially, but just pushing, you know, against 434 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,960 it by really saying I want to pay you for your zone of genius. 435 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,160 And so if there's anything that you do that it's not of your 436 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,200 zone of genius, I don't want you to do that. 437 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,440 You know, How do you feel about this? 438 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,640 Oh, like, you know, I keep saying this to my folks in my 439 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,720 team like we're not saving babies. 440 00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,520 Like if you need a day off, take the day off. 441 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,120 The goal is to do exactly the opposite of what has been done. 442 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:07,160 So if people tell you this is not viable, this is not da da 443 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,320 da. I'm thinking, oh, that's good, 444 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,080 That's juicy. Plus, you know, I'm sad rising, 445 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,080 so tell me I can't do something. I will do it. 446 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,760 I love the challenge and it works. 447 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,840 So I think coming into spaces with care is not like what we 448 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,720 think of like, oh, and there's, you know, I think it's more 449 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,520 saying the thing that maybe nobody wants to say and just 450 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,680 really not taking yourself too serious. 451 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,720 And, yeah, realizing that the person in front of you is a full 452 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,720 being with histories of trauma, gifts, you know, challenges. 453 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,120 I go out into the world and I'm always thinking everybody's 454 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,720 having a bad day. You know, something that I 455 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,640 really don't love is when people just are being annoying and 456 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,800 they're like, I had a bad day. I hate this shit from the bottom 457 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,240 of my heart. I think it's the most Western 458 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,640 thing in the world. It's like I go into the world 459 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,040 and I'm always thinking, this person's having the worst day, 460 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,120 this person's having the worst week, this person's having the 461 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,520 worst year. I meet people this way. 462 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,200 How many of us, you know, you go out and somebody smiles at you 463 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,960 and it just makes your day. And for me, it always makes my 464 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,600 day when people are just like kind of out of nowhere. 465 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,600 I'm just like, you know what, maybe it's cool to be here, you 466 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,840 know, and I just really realize how we have such a huge impact 467 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,800 on each other, like the smallest things have such a huge impact 468 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,040 on each other. So I accountability is that it's 469 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,000 like I matter. Of course I matter. 470 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,920 So it's just it's part of dignity. 471 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,320 I matter, and so my words matter. 472 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,280 My actions matter, my no actions matter, My silences matter. 473 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,320 I matter. Thank you. 474 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,400 That was a note I made from our our last conversation. 475 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,800 And pretty much exactly what you just said is that accountability 476 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,160 is tied to dignity and that what I say and don't say matters. 477 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,200 And what I said or what I don't, didn't say affects me because I 478 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,000 matter and my energy matters. I also write under that have a 479 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,680 note that I'm sure is something that you said because it's it's 480 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,600 a variant of what we included in our event description. 481 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,640 And it says avoidance isn't just avoiding conflict, It's a 482 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,080 general life vibe. And so to be avoidant with 483 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,360 conflict is to be avoidant kind of in your life. 484 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,320 And building accountability and relationships also builds 485 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,240 accountability with yourself and your life energy. 486 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,640 My last question for you for for now has to just do with current 487 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,040 astrology if you want to talk about it or just the vibe of 488 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,360 let's say the last six months if we think back to Mars beginning 489 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,320 its retrograde cycle and the last few months of Venus, 490 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,080 Mercury retrograde eclipses. If you want to talk about 491 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,160 astrology specifically, would love it. 492 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,560 If not, don't worry. I'm wondering what like what? 493 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,800 What's fresh for you right now and what are you noticing maybe 494 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,760 in your collective space or with your clients? 495 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,120 What what is asking to be learned right now about 496 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,560 accountability and relationships and boundaries and avoidance and 497 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,800 the erotics of liberation? I mean, I just want to say, 498 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,880 first of all, as a person on parent Earth, I'm going through 499 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,400 it. I feel like the universe is just 500 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,360 dragging me by my edges. But yeah, this specifically, I 501 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,240 think the confrontation between Crudo and Mars. 502 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,160 Oh. It's just so much tension. 503 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,000 You want to punch somebody in the throat. 504 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,560 And so in the practice of not doing that, I have been trying 505 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,880 to just really be in my body and just, you know, just sweat it 506 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,280 all out. I'm a huge believer in, you 507 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,560 know, in my spaces. There's been conflicts too in 508 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,200 the British practice field. And so one thing that we've 509 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,560 been, I mean, it's perfect because it, of course everything 510 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,080 happens for a reason. But this isn't that we're in, 511 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,400 it's based on the four elements my program. 512 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,760 So now we're in spring northern hemisphere and it's tied to the 513 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,920 wind air, and it's all about connection and specifically 514 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,840 conflicts like being in relationship with folks and 515 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,920 accountability. And so a lot of the work we've 516 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,960 been doing is around accountability and so many 517 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,080 things lead us to conflict that we could take care of before. 518 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,400 But this, this idea of like this paper cuts that you have this 519 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,080 slight thing that happens and you're like, oh, if I bring it 520 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,160 up, I'm petty, you know, like, I don't want to sound crazy. 521 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,320 And so you don't bring it up. And so, and then there's another 522 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,440 one and there's another one and there's another one. 523 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,240 And then you're bleeding and you don't know where it's coming 524 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,960 from because there's been so many different tiny paper cuts 525 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,600 everywhere. And so I don't know, I think, 526 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,720 you know, we've been doing that for so long. 527 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,080 So even talking about the last two years would be kind of 528 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,920 ridiculous. I think we've been doing that 529 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,760 since the beginning of capitalism. 530 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,440 We've been doing that of like working our whole lives. 531 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,080 Doesn't sound super good. But you know what, maybe I'm 532 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,280 going to get a career and maybe I'm going to make enough money 533 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,640 or maybe I'm going to get I'm going to get status. 534 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,240 And you know, that completely responds to the, the big 535 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,680 question for human beings is, am I loved? 536 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,440 And so I think, you know, of avoidance. 537 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,560 And when I talk about avoidance specific or people come to my 538 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,800 work because of what I'm talking about around transfersive 539 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,120 justice or accountability, we're always thinking about conflicts. 540 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,840 I want to say first of all, that avoidance is not something to 541 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,320 avoid. It's meaning the first thing we 542 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,720 do when we see something that is complicated is actually, and 543 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,760 it's part of our survival strategies is to flee. 544 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,000 Like mammals, the first thing they tend to do is fleeing. 545 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,720 So you see a cat, if the cat says something that is scary or 546 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,920 whatever, the cat will flee just because in terms of energy, it's 547 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,560 less energy to flee than to fight, which is would be the 548 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,560 other survival strategy that you could have. 549 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,440 And then this other survival strategies like fawning or 550 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:23,639 appeasement, dissociation, and, you know, so fleeing avoidance, 551 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,239 it's not something we can actually stop doing. 552 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,280 I really want to be clear about this because this is literally 553 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,159 part of 3 billion of years of evolutionary wisdom that we've 554 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,840 built around surviving planet Earth. 555 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,440 And as much as I do believe that we've built trauma in ways that 556 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,120 are just, wow, we really put so much energy into building trauma 557 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,159 on planet Earth. I do think being a doula that 558 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,440 potentially being embodied is traumatic. 559 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,880 You know, I'm, this is a question I have. 560 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,840 I'm thinking if we didn't have racism, if we didn't have all 561 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,280 the systems of donation, you know, when you look at a birth, 562 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,360 for example, it's quite traumatic and maybe not for the 563 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,360 child because we, you know, but the person giving birth, 564 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,600 although there are hormones sometimes that make us forget 565 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,040 that. So we can keep on going. 566 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,680 But I don't know, it's just traumatic to be in a body, you 567 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:24,240 know, to be being, be born and then see everything that you 568 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:29,680 love, die and then die too. Regardless of that. 569 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,160 I, I really want to say that avoidance is not something to 570 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,880 avoid. It's something that we do. 571 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,600 And I think it's something that also has kept us alive for sure. 572 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,560 It's not me thinking that. So it's, it's really important 573 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,600 that we understand that to a certain degree. 574 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,360 I mean, we don't choose our survival strategies. 575 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,960 We don't get to say, OK, I'm going to choose fleeing or I'm 576 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,280 going to choose fighting. We do the thing that we kind of 577 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,200 feel is the is going to be the best for our survival. 578 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,920 However, I think because of how overwhelming racial capitalism 579 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,800 has become and the state of our lives at large, I do think we 580 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,400 build more and more avoidance and then it becomes a lifestyle. 581 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,920 And that's really the hard part is to understand, OK, how is 582 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,680 this part of my survival? But and when is this, you know, 583 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,640 really something that is not serving me? 584 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,360 And I do think we avoided for so long the realities of the 585 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,080 systems that are really about extraction. 586 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,240 And so when people are saying like this system is or this, you 587 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,280 know, whatever they call it is broken. 588 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,400 No, it's not broken. It's doing exactly what it's 589 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,080 supposed to be doing. It's doing it so well that for a 590 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,800 while we thought something is wrong, but I'm just going to 591 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,880 keep going. It wasn't urgent enough that we 592 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,080 thought, OK, we have to do something about it. 593 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,880 We have to organize with friends around us. 594 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,640 That's why it's so good, this system, right? 595 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,640 It's like it gives us a little bit of thing to keep going so 596 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,360 that we don't really think, OK, for the most privilege of us, 597 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,760 something about wise people, the Western world. 598 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,840 But for a lot of us, it has never been a thought that this 599 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,880 system is broken. It was clear from the very 600 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,120 beginning. And we've been trying to tell 601 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,600 folks like, hey, it's, it's going to come to you at some 602 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,080 point and the way we are treated, it's going to come to 603 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,640 you at some point. But unfortunately it has taking 604 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,640 a little bit of time for people to realise that. 605 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:35,040 And so I think really avoidance and accountability is like the 606 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:40,080 maybe the stepping stone to abolition at large is to 607 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,480 realise, OK, it has never been working. 608 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,880 And we can wallow on the fact that we've been, you know, just 609 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,960 a victim and slash or a accomplice of the system. 610 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,160 But still we're still here and we still have to change it. 611 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,800 So what do we do about it? I, for my part, you know, I 612 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,560 still feel very much that I'm not doing enough and that 613 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,040 abolition is so huge. And, and this is where then my 614 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,320 humility comes in and says, yeah, why would you just start 615 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,800 when you could be a constellation? 616 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,080 You're not doing this alone. Movements have never been 617 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,680 created alone. The whole, you know, celebrity 618 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,800 culture around activism, that's bullshit. 619 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,760 That's for Hollywood, that's for Instagram. 620 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,760 That never happened like this. Families are always built in 621 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,840 community. People survive because of 622 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,840 several people. It takes two people to create 623 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,360 one person, you know? So if we're bowing each other's 624 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,520 hands, that means we really need to hold each other. 625 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,520 So I always try to come back to that and realise that, yeah, my 626 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,000 work is really, really tiny, but potentially and hopefully it's 627 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,600 going to support other people's work. 628 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,760 And when I do feel like I'm not doing enough, I just look at 629 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,080 other people's work and I'm like, I'm good, people are doing 630 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,080 their shit too. And that helps me to like not 631 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,000 fall in despair, but instead fall into community. 632 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,040 So yeah, I'm, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, 633 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,280 but. I'm not sure either, but I 634 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,960 enjoyed where you went and appreciated what you said. 635 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,400 Do you? Is there a somatic practice that 636 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,440 you do? Is there something that you do 637 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,600 when you know that you don't want to avoid something? 638 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:21,960 That's such a great question Today. 639 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,560 I did that. And I think most of the time 640 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,960 what we avoid is ourselves. Like you feel upset because 641 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,440 somebody said something and you're like, Oh no, I shouldn't 642 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,640 be petty about it. And I this is, come on, like the 643 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,960 world is on fire. I shouldn't worry about a 644 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,640 comment. And so I think most of the work, 645 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,680 at least for me, is to not avoid my own feelings to be like, 646 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,640 girl, just sit your fucking black ass down. 647 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,120 You are feeling this way. You are feeling this way and 648 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,360 coming to my journal, writing it down, making it real, writing 649 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,120 yourself in as October. But this would say just really 650 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,200 making it tangible and real for yourself that this is how you're 651 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,120 feeling. For me is the first step and 652 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:10,520 then just I always have this, you know, tension towards 653 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,040 crying. I'm a Pisces, so most of the 654 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,160 time I'm just going to cry and I always block it out first. 655 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:19,560 I always like kind of like I want to hold it like AG. 656 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,560 I'm like, no, this is I want to cry about it. 657 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:28,040 And it's wild. What not feeling would make us 658 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,880 do you would. You will eat something. 659 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,080 You will distract yourself with your screens. 660 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,600 You will text somebody. You will use people as avoidance 661 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:43,000 tactics. Honestly, you will just work it 662 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,680 out. You will just, I don't know what 663 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,280 it is. You will buy something which 664 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,680 great for capitalism. You will, I don't know what it 665 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,000 is, but you will do those things over long term. 666 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,120 This is not now. I'm just talking about one thing 667 00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:00,920 over long term when I had what I realised for myself is that I 668 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,480 will turn things around, obsessions and control. 669 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,200 And one huge part of my practice is, you know, we learn in my 670 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,280 practice, find near enemies. And I don't know if you know 671 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,120 about this, but it's like a Buddhist knowing that basically 672 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,840 is explaining the difference between far and near enemies. 673 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,120 And so far enemies are two things that are completely 674 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,880 opposite, just like Mars and Pluto are opposite to each other 675 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,520 right now. They see each other. 676 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,040 So when you face someone, you're having a direct conflict with 677 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,720 them. You know exactly this is what is 678 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:35,640 in front of me. So for example, far enemies 679 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,920 could be the opposite of being kind is being mean, or the 680 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,160 opposite of compassion is cruelty. 681 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,200 That's easy because they're opposite to each other. 682 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,120 They see each other now near enemies. 683 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:49,280 They're it. It's really hard to pinpoint 684 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,720 because they act like the real deal, but they're not. 685 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,680 And so they completely derail connection. 686 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,600 So, for example, the near enemy of compassion or empathy is 687 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,080 pity. Instead of saying, you know, 688 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,560 seeing a person in front of you and saying I'm not free until 689 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,720 you're until you're not free. I feel you. 690 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,680 It's putting the person down and saying, oh, it must be so hard. 691 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,560 Oh, poor you. Thank God it's not me. 692 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,960 Oh my God, it must be. So I'm so sorry. 693 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,040 And that, you know, every time I explain this to my clients in 694 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,800 101 work, I used to do that a lot. 695 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,280 And people would always be like, Oh my God, like, yes, we feel 696 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,080 somatically when someone gives us pity versus like, I know 697 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,720 exactly what, you know, like I'll get angry with you because 698 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,400 this is not right. And so one of the near enemies 699 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,880 that I'm always working with. And I think it's you potentially 700 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,880 the only reason that I do everything that I'm doing, 701 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,000 including liberation practice field is I've understood at some 702 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:57,120 point because, you know, I'm so interested in fascist and like 703 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,480 bigots at large, I'm really interested. 704 00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,760 Sometimes I just really want to have a coffee with them and be 705 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,160 like, So what happened? Let's just talk about it. 706 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,320 And I realized at some point, because in my spaces I felt like 707 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,280 we have connection. And so I assumed that on their 708 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,120 side they have connection. But then I realized, oh, it's 709 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,200 not connection, it's control. And so those two things are near 710 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,360 enemies too. The near enemy of connection is 711 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,040 control. And so where connection must be, 712 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,240 For example, if we take the example of Palestine, all human 713 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:35,720 beings should be free. All indigenous people should be 714 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:39,240 free, The earth should be free, our bodies should be free, trans 715 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:42,200 people should be free, Black and brown bodies should be free, All 716 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,320 of us should be free. On the other side, people should 717 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,000 not be free. But then it's also like if 718 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,040 someone inside of this circle says, well, I think maybe 719 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,960 Palestinians have rights. You are immediately put into, 720 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,200 you are less than a Palestinian, right? 721 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,320 Like you are immediately put back into, you have no rights 722 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,120 whatsoever. So it's control, right? 723 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,960 It's not connection anymore. And so I'm always in. 724 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,400 It does. I'm not saying that we don't do 725 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,280 control in our spaces. We obviously do. 726 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,880 Sometimes we police each other and you know, but the core of 727 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,600 our, of our, of our movements is to be in connection. 728 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,080 We're not part of nature. We are nature. 729 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,320 Like this is all of this is, is us, right? 730 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:30,600 And so I think my, my understanding around this has 731 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,840 LED everything that I'm doing. And so a lot of the things that 732 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,880 I will do for myself is to go into control instead of 733 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,160 connection. So I would just like be so 734 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:45,120 fucking sure that if only I would lose weight, my life would 735 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,720 be better. And then I realized six months 736 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:51,120 after, wait a minute, like, where is this coming from? 737 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,200 And I'm not saying, you know, that, you know, wait doesn't 738 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,280 have an impact on you, on how you connect to people. 739 00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,240 It actually has a huge impact, but it's not maybe the 740 00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:03,560 connection that I want to have. And so I find myself going into 741 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,880 distractions and obsessions that really stems from neglect. 742 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,760 I do think neglect creates, you know, capacity to obsess because 743 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,680 we had to kind of guess all the time. 744 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,760 And so we just guess what if I do this and maybe I'll do that 745 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,200 and maybe I'll do that and then I'll get the connection that I 746 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,640 crave so badly. Instead of staying exactly where 747 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,320 you are and asking yourself, what are the people around me 748 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,320 that crave the same type of connection that I could get 749 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,960 along with and I could build worlds from this place. 750 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,760 You know, I'm thinking about permaculture and how I learned 751 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,680 through permaculture that growth happens at the margins. 752 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,160 And so instead of like forcing yourself into the centre that 753 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,560 you will potentially never be accepted by build growth there, 754 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,320 don't sit at the fucking table. The table is boring. 755 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,280 The food doesn't have any fucking taste. 756 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,040 Our parties are always better. Stay where you are and build 757 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,160 communities where you are. And so for me, it's been really 758 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,120 clear over the last. And then the thing that I also 759 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:07,640 do somatically to come back to center is just like, go out and 760 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,360 see how that people are living and people are breathing and 761 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,040 people are doing things and people are suffering and people 762 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,960 are, you know, loving and people are just and you, you're part of 763 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,400 a whole that is always changing and moving. 764 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,560 And so you are too. So, you know, just going outside 765 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,480 and liberation practice well is definitely part of my practice 766 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:33,080 to just get out of myself and just do things that are more 767 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,640 important than me. Yeah. 768 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,800 Thank you so much for that.