Haley's going to move on. She's going to do other artistic
projects, and they're going to get better and better as her
life goes on in general, and she's going to get into all
aspects of stuff. But this project, well, it's
dear to my heart. Someone coming around and doing
a film. And how many documentaries have
you seen in astrology? You'll always see a National
Geographic Wildlife Special, but no astrologers in the wild.
We haven't had any kind of media attention outside of the most
tabloid, superficial stuff, you know, a syndicated column in the
newspapers, an occasional astrologer who would get on the
radio. Right now, we're in the Era
podcast. You could actually have the
following. But in our age, no, it was
always the laugh track. There was never anything serious
going on. So Haley's water in the desert.
Can somebody come in camera and they're going to record the
things that are dear to your heart and your profession?
Hey, it gets all the support we possibly can give it.
So I look at the work from not as Haley's artistic expression,
but as literally a documentary of an era that will pass, you
know? And it isn't just us old farts
dropping dead or anything like that.
It's the idea that astrology never got developed, and it is
going to be developed, that's the thing.
And when astrology starts getting developed, it's not
going to look anything like what we've learned in our lifetimes.
Paley's documentary might be the last of an old worldview of the
way we actually practiced, of the way we actually conducted
our lives. Hello and welcome to Embodied
Astrology, a podcast. And Learning Community, where we
explore the growing edges of astrology and its intersections
with healing, arts, activism, relationships and personal
growth. This month's special episode is
coming out with a Taurus New Moon.
Taurus is one of the signs most often associated with money and
wealth. It's also a sign that for the
last eight years has hosted the outer planet Uranus.
Earlier this season, Uranus left Taurus and moved into Gemini,
where it will now stay for the next 7 years.
Uranium energy brings upsets, innovations and awakening
wherever it goes. While Uranus was in Taurus,
economies were disrupted for all kinds of reasons.
And as Uranus goes into Gemini, a sign associated with
currencies and exchange, we can definitely expect to see even
more volatility and unpredictability in the markets.
In this episode, I interviewed director Haley Gorigas and the
astrologer and founder of Astrolabe, Gary Christian about
Star Cash, their recently released documentary on
financial astrology. Our conversation was intriguing
and broad scoped. We spoke about the reputation of
astrology across time, speculated on possible futures
for both astrology and the financial market following the
recent Jupiter, Saturn conjunction and the movement of
Pluto and Uranus from Earth to air science, and Gary and Haley
shared their hopes and intentions for the release of
this film. If you're interested in watching
their documentary, you can find it now at the Star Cash website,
LinkedIn our show notes, and keep an eye out for its premiere
on streaming. Sites soon.
OK, Why don't you start with the same question that you just
started with? Talking about our the various
backgrounds, why am I running with Haley on this documentary
and stuff? Haley could have chosen any of
the other folks that were in the movie to run with it.
Well, because Haley and I got along really well and she feels
comfortable with me. But myself, my personal
background is I am the principal for Solar Fire, which is a large
piece of software that's out there, Astro World.
So they've been utilizing me as a front person for astrology in
general. Is that correct?
Haley, would you go along with that it?
Is extremely correct. And also I'm not an astrologer
and so there's a filmmaker interested in astrology and
probably maybe know more about astrology than maybe like the
layperson just through the process.
I think it would be remiss of me to talk about the film and talk
about astrology with, you know, the knowledge base that I have.
You know, as you were talking, I just pulled your sinistry, Haley
and Gary, just to look at your chart together, which I imagine
you probably have done as well. And yeah, I just, I see so many
contacts that feel like deep resonance.
Haley's Jupiter is conjunct with Gary's Moon and Haley's Mercury
is on Gary's ascendant and her part of fortune is conjunct his
venous Uranus conjunction and Cancer.
And I see a a Pluto sun opposition, Haley's Pluto
opposing Gary's sun and and Mars and Venus sextile together her
moon on his mid heavens. So, you know, there's a lot of
contacts in your relationship that feel like you were destined
to find each other maybe on on some level before we even start
to talk about, you know, the film as its own kind of entity
or project. I wonder if each of you might
talk a little bit about what it's been like to know each
other and and be in relationship.
And maybe Gary, would you start? What was your first encounter
with Haley like, and what's it been like in the time that
you've known her? Well, she cold called me and
said basically that she's going to be in the area and that could
she come by and start to film, you know, that she was going to
be picking up materials. There was no real rhyme or
reason basically, but she ran around with a camera all the
time that she visited Astrolabe and then various times was
coming back. She started six years ago on
this thing. You know, I've changed during
the course in the filming. I got a lot older, but basically
she went through the field as it was as old astrologers had our
own particular world going on and then this world came upon
us. You know, it's this big interest
in astrology began to to focus. I felt that Haley running around
with her camera and stuff was capturing a world that will
change, that will go away, you know.
So from my perspective, it's great to see that particular
point of view, that knowledge and everything else codified.
She, within the film itself, she starts talking about financial
astrology in general and it's an interesting segue.
In other words, she's filming us old astrologers and this and
that. Finding out what actually
constitutes authentic astrology with as it's practiced and then
segueing into, well, how are people practically working with
it? Which is why the 1st place we
begin to filter to is to look at the financial astrologers.
We'll look at people in general and see what role astrology
plays and their movements in the market.
Now, this is something that all of us in the field have
considered that the idea that business people, people that
work in the markets, they're really pragmatic.
They don't care where things are derived.
They don't have an ethical base with which to make their
decisions. Their decisions are made on
whether it's going to work and make them money and that sort of
stuff. Watching her roll that in was
something I wasn't even aware of while she was filming it, you
know? Oh wow.
Yeah. So Haley, when you started this
project, were you intending to make a documentary about
financial astrology or were you really just kind of asking
deeper questions about what is astrology?
I started wanting to just make a film about astrology and then as
I got deeper into it, it proved very difficult to create like a
coherent strand of thoughts about just astrology because
astrology is not a monolith. In the same way in the film, we
say the market is not a monolith and there are so many different
subfields, personalities. Everyone, you know, everyone
thinks kind of is. Another line from the film, Gary
says this. Everyone thinks what they're
doing is the best thing in the world.
So yeah, it became difficult because I always.
I wondered, you know, my background is in like on the
industry side in film and development and, and sales of
documentaries. And I wondered why there weren't
more documentaries about astrology because it's such a
popular subject. There's so many people into
astrology. You would think, wow, there
should be kind of like the movie about astrology and there isn't.
And that's not because people haven't tried.
You know, Netflix has tried, Hulu has tried.
They've all tried. And what I found is that you
either make something for astrologers, which then goes way
over people's heads who are not astrologers, or you make
something incredibly poppy and surface level.
And so I was like, how can I maybe bridge these worlds?
And then I realized that when I would talk to people who didn't
know anything about astrology, when you told them that you
could use astrology to time financial markets, that is what
paying their interest. You know, they didn't care about
a film about astrology. They were like, oh, really?
You can do that with astrology. And so I realized that was my
end to potentially broaden the demographics who would watch the
film and be interested in the film outside of just people who
are, you know, fans of astrology or who use astrology.
Huh. I I want to come back to that in
a second. But before I do, how did you
find Gary and what drew you to him?
As you know, this first point of contact with astrologers.
I found his name through the community of astrologers and
obviously Astrolabe. And at first, I was maybe going
to, you know, early iteration of the film was I was going to go
to different astrology schools and astrology based companies.
And that was very early on. And yeah, Gary was just in that,
in that community. So just luck, yeah.
Your your personal planet contacts must have, yeah.
Totally. Compelled you?
So a moment ago you said when you told people that astrology
could help predict the markets, then something pinged for them
and then they became interested? Yes.
And in the description of Star Cache of your film, it says the
film reveals how our obsession with controlling the future
through market predictions and horoscopes alike disconnects us
from an ancient wisdom about cycles and our place in the
cosmos. In seeking certainty, have we
lost something more profound about what it means to be part
of the universe? And more importantly, does it
work? I'm kind of curious about those
last two sentences. You know what's what's more
important about whether or not astrology works for predicting
the markets versus Have we lost something profound about what it
means to be part of the universe?
I think they're both important. They're all really interplayed.
Does it work? Just speaks to people needing
to, you know, have an understanding of how the world
works, right? Unfortunately, we do live in a
time where we are materialists. And I'm not talking about money.
I'm just talking about, you know, people need to understand
the material of things. And so I think one of the
reasons we've lost our place and the broader fabric of the
universe is because of this needing to know how things work.
So it's a little cheeky sentence play.
Yeah, no, as you were talking, I can feel how within modernity,
in the world that we live in, there's such an illusion of
control. And then when people find out
that, oh, something works and it's bigger than me and it has
this much larger intelligence behind it, there can be a sense
of awe and attraction and and curiosity and personal
expansion. And then there can also be this
way of approaching it that is also extractive.
Like I'm going to figure out how to use that for my own.
Gain, yeah. And and I will say I think not
all, but a lot of people interested in astrology really,
from what my observation go into it because they're interested in
themselves. And so whether or not there's a
breakthrough beyond the South, once you get deeper into
astrology is really just based on the individual, you know, and
whether or not people then see that, oh, there is, you know,
yeah, something bigger than than yourself.
And it's, it's funny because I think, you know, when astrology
was really popular and just part of the, you know, fabric of
everyday life in antiquity, you didn't really have atheists,
right, or people that didn't believe in some greater divine
power. And so it's sort of because of
that, I think people were able to approach astrology or see
astrology is just a fact of nature because it was a system
beyond themselves. And there already was this
belief that God's things outside of themselves bigger than
themselves. So believing quote UN quote in
astrology was sort of, you know, commonplace.
It just of course, right there are things we don't understand.
And so I think it's a lot harder for people in modernity to
believe in something like astrology because it is harder
for people in eternity to believe in something bigger than
themselves. So then the same scrutiny that,
let's say religion gets now, or the idea of God or something
bigger things like astrology get, because they're two sides
of the same coin in a lot of ways.
Like it takes faith to some degree, right?
You ask any skeptic of astrology, and I've encountered
a lot and they're just like, yeah, but how does this work?
Or why would this work? And oh, it's just placebo effect
or it's confirmation bias. You know, you read this about a
Leo and you know, I'm a Virgo, but I can relate to the the Leo
characteristics. You know, there's always like
the gotcha moment. It's really hard for the modern
mind to comprehend something that is like truly divorced of
material reason. Yeah, I, I'm curious about that
from your perspective. I know that you in your bio, it
says you grew up in Los Angeles and you went to 12 years of
Catholic school, which is part of what you credit with shaping
an ongoing fascination and questions about belief in blind
faith. And then your first feature
documentary, you're examining digital mythology.
Is that correct? Yeah.
And then I'm looking at your
chart. I have your chart up and you're
a Gemini, son. That's a focal point to a yard
with Pluto and Scorpio and then Neptune, Uranus conjunct.
All of the outer planets are retrograde in Capricorn.
And that feels to me like you have a kind of direct, deeply
embodied, lived experience of understanding how stories shape
the world and probably a perspective on the stories that
people are telling that, you know, is this kind of Gemini
side eye a little bit sometimes, you know, where you're like, OK,
that's the story you're telling. And I'm sure that even, you
know, dealing with astrology skeptics or atheists or
something like that, you're also able to see that people have the
stories that they're still attached to.
I mean, nobody's absolutely. You're a storyteller, and your
work with filmmaking is also to tell stories into culture.
I'm wondering, you know, what do you feel is the ultimate power
of a story? Like what does it do to the
human consciousness and what's its function?
Big question for me, I think it's there's two strands and I
think they work together, which is I think a good story lets you
escape yourself. But paradoxically, I do think in
escaping yourself through that story, you actually arrive at
truths about yourself that you will relate to.
But I think the function of, like, hearing a story that takes
you out of yourself is actually the thing that brings you closer
to something in your own life that you may not have seen if
you weren't taken to this place where there's like, an eagle eye
view. And it's, you know, Hollywood's
very Neptunian, right? So what is like the LA chart,
Gary? Do you know it's like you
haven't? Looked at it in a long time, but
yes, you're correct about the Neptunian influences everywhere,
yes. And so there's like, yeah,
there's escapism, but in that escapism, I mean, it's like you
think of Neptune, I think of dreams.
And I think there's nothing better than a dream revealing
something within yourself that your conscious mind can't
totally comprehend. So I think escapism is important
in understanding your own story. Yeah, agreed.
Thank you for that. Gary, I'm curious about you and
your bio. On the Astrolabe website, it
says that you've been an astrologer since you're a
teenager. You're one of the very few
people to be awarded ABA degree with an interdisciplinary major
in astrology, and you've been practicing now since 1969.
What got you into astrology? You know, were you there also
trying to understand yourself like Haley was just talking
about? A lot of people come to it with.
Actually, not at all. It looks like it was one of
those things that it was kind of destined for me as a child.
One of the first organizations I belong to was a club called the
Junior Astronautical Society. I ground a telescope when I was
12 years old, an 8 inch telescope.
So at that time we would watch movies of rockets blowing up and
that sort of stuff was basically supported by NASA.
And, and as I got older at Woolworth's were the weighing
machines that had the little scrolls for the sun signs, you
know, that would come with your weight.
I don't know if you've ever seen one of those, but they were
actually pretty interesting. And our local columnist in the
newspaper was Sidney Omar. Sidney Omar, for a public
astrologer, was very good because he would track the moon
phases. It would get everybody aware of
what astrological combinations were working.
So his column was half, here's what's going on in the sky and
half, oh, sunshine, astrology, here's what we're going to do,
you know, but really fast. By the time I was 17, I was
going to school in New York. I was going to School of Visual
Arts and learning film. And I had a teacher that
basically was using astrological material as an excuse within the
class and I confronted with it. Because he told me one day that,
well, we're going to have a day off because Saturn is going into
Taurus and I'm an Aries. I'm really happy now.
And I said, what's that all about?
So I ran down to the New York Astrology Center on 7th St. in
New York City, which had basically just opened up.
And at the time they sold me $120.00 worth of books, which in
1967 was a lot of a lot of money.
But I went home and began to work with horoscopes.
I began to teach myself how to how to cast a chart and began to
look at the charts and look at my friends and begin to see them
as one and the same. So I went back to the New York
Astrology Center and began to volunteer and worked with them
for a number of years until I went to college, then used them
as a base to get my degree, and then after college worked there
for several years until Rob Hand and myself started Astro
Astrographic Services, which became Astrolabe.
So we introduced the idea of computerized astrology into the
world. Our only competitor at the time
was Michael Erlewine at Matrix. You know, we were the early, we
were the characters. We were all students of Neil
Mickelson who started Astro Computing Services, which was
the 1st service organization for astrologers.
It's from there that things like the time zone corrections began
to get recorded. You know, astrologers were the
only people concerned with time zone changes.
And we realized that whatever it was we were going to program was
what people were going to copy going forward.
You know, so you know that, hey, if somebody writes a piece of
code now, what are they going to compare their code to?
Are they going to go back to the original books, recreate
everything like an alchemical laboratory and, and, and make
all the calculations correct? No, they're going to go back and
check it against early software that was developed.
So we knew we had to get it right, and we did.
But the idea was really this was that astrology by 19901995 had
gotten fairly inauthentic. A lot of folks were basically
doing material that had no basis or background.
Meanwhile, astrology itself had gotten one of the most important
things to, to, to promote it, and that was the Gauckland
material. You know, the, the Gulk lawns.
You have to really understand that the Gulk lawns, what they
really did was establish that it's incontrovertible that what
goes on in the sky is going to affect life on Earth.
Particularly the idea of what humans choose in their life on
Earth gives the idea of that. This idea of destiny becomes
very important, right? Because what the Gaul Claws
tested on was what you chose as a profession.
And this is something that you think you choose well.
But how would it be locked up in the sky as a sure thing?
2 million to one. Now, the Gaul Claws were
attacked several times. They were attacked by a Belgian
group. Finally, they were on the front
page of the New York Times since 1976.
They were attacked by 186 Nobel Prize winning scientists saying
astrology is magical thinking and and going to destroy our
society. Front page, 3 columns, 3
headlines. They only say serve that thing
for war. And of course, when they went,
when they were hip to the idea that, hey, this guy's called
Kwan and his wife put together a proof of astrology, we'll throw
that out the window. And the guy hired a guy named
Dennis Rollins to do the conductor research.
And Rollins concluded the gulf bonds were absolutely correct.
There was not a thing wrong with their study.
So the guys that were doing it was a committee for the
investigation of the paranormal, a very well funded group of
people. Well, they tried to fudge the
data. They changed the data, they
changed the conditions of the data.
And Dennis Rollins blew the whistle and vindicated the
Gauklands. You know, these guys had to go
with their tail between their legs.
Did you know they had a press conference at the Waldorf
Astoria that the public was barred from and the press was
barred from where they made their announcement that they had
completely delegitimatized their careers by doing a bad stunt.
So we have this behind us. We have to understand that we
are legitimate in all of our work.
The thing is, we have no discipline.
We missed out on the Industrial Revolution, right, Which
elevated chemistry elevated. We're more like medical people.
We're a craft. Astrology is a very finicky
subject. We only survived because they
only had two points of view at the time.
The Catholics really were wary of us.
Guys like Saint Augustine would run around and say basically
that astrology determines your free will, therefore it's not
God's will. God wants, God has put us on
this planet to, in order to determine what we're going to do
with our souls. But then guys like Thomas
Aquinas came along, Saint Thomas of Aquinas, and he would say,
wait a second, if God did not want us to know our destiny, why
did he give us the heavens? Why would he show us his works
every single night and put it on display for everybody to see?
And, and, and the Catholics had a hard time with this.
And when Gutenberg's press happens, the first book he
prints is the Bible. In the Bible, there's no Pope,
there's no indulgences. And we start the Protestant
Revolution. Now, in the middle of that
Protestant Revolution, astrology still poking along.
We're basically at the center of the sciences.
We're doing things in medical world, right?
If you go to Oxford, you have to study astrology before you can
do anything like build a bridge or something like that.
We were in the center of the sciences, but science wasn't
very important in Renaissance times until the libertarians
came along. So astrology was in a funny
place. You had a big revolution going
on in the religions and then you have the astrologers and the
astrologers take over the press. The first book was the Bible,
the second book was an astrological Almanac.
And the people didn't read. The almanacs were pictures.
Well, in 1665 William Lilly publishes an Almanac with a
picture of London on fire. And in 1666 London obliged and
burnt to the ground. Well, you have to understand
that the people start trusting the astrologers a lot more than
the Anglican Church. And the Anglican Church wasn't
too happy about that. So they went to the nascent
scientists and said, can you get this thing off our back?
That's the fall of astrology. Yes, May.
I interject. No, I just, it's funny, 'cause
it is true. Like I feel like you know, your
background, you were in so many ways and which is why I love you
in the film and like you as a as a character is because you have
this like perspective and history with astrology that is
at this point, like astrological history, right?
Like you are part of the real, like modern history of
astrology. So I just found it humorous
because like, I know you, but when you talk about yourself and
your bio, you can't help but also weave in the larger history
of astrology into how you see the field, which a lot of people
can't say. So I just wanted to put that in
there. One of the virtues is I did live
the astrological life. A vow of poverty.
A vow of poverty at age 17. You know, the and not even
realizing this is what I was going to do.
I mean, I got the degree and all this other stuff.
I thought I would work in the parks and I'd play with
astrology at night and have a few clients and, you know,
follow my my muse. But as it turned out, I had a
career path from the astrology, unlike well of my peers and
stuff. I've earned a Czech in astrology
my entire career. I've always been employed by
astrological organizations, either New York astrology guys
or putting something together like astrolabe.
I worked as a corporate astrologer for a number of years
in New York City for a steel company.
I was the staff astrologer. I had to fire people and fire
people, tell them when to send the barges down the river, you
know, when to make the sales and all that stuff.
So it was always a situation where I got paid as a
professional, you know, and my peers around me all had to
struggle. They really did.
It was a, it was a tough life, you know, this 'cause you got to
realize people just don't go to a, they might today somewhat,
but they didn't just go to an astrologer.
First off, by the time somebody with a real problem came to the
astrologer, they, they've gone through to everybody.
They've gone to all the doctors, they've gone to all the help
people, they've gone to all the lawyers or whatever it is that's
going on. And the astrologer is really the
last guy on on the totem pole. And this is the situation where
you would, you would drop everything, you'd stop
everything. And you'd have to start working
on these these people's charts because they were the desperate,
you know, So as an astrologer, you saw the curious and the
desperate. There aren't a lot of desperate
people out there. So most of the time you're
making your money as a practitioner with the social
circles you're moving in, the curious folks that you're
dealing with, that sort of stuff.
You know, where are you moving with with the astrology today in
the field that we really should be building is 1, where the
counseling experience of astrology is a very important
thing to people. You know, everybody remembers
the first reading. You know, it's important for the
astrologer to record that reading for the client because
we know that five years later they're going to come looking
back for it and picking it up. What did he say?
Oh my God, all these things came true, you know, and this is one
of the things that makes the field so wonderful.
Can I, can I pause this for a moment?
Because you've said so many things and in the time that
you've been talking, I've had like 10 questions come up and
I'm looking at your Venus conjunct with Uranus as the
ruler of your luminaries. And I just feel like you are an
open vessel and an open channel for a lot of information to come
through. And I'm I'm watching you on the
screen and you're rocking back and forth and you've got all
this movement in your body and clearly a lot of movement in
your mind. And a while ago when you were
talking about the Goklans, you were talking about this study
around, you know, vocation and what people chose as career.
And throughout, you know what you've been sharing, one of the
recurring thoughts that's been coming up for me has been around
the relationship between the technical craft of astrology and
the intuitive craft of astrology.
Because anybody can read data, but not everybody can make sense
of data in meaningful ways. And, and you know, I, I feel
like looking at your chart and hearing your story, that you
were called clearly onto this path, you know, that there was a
larger force that said, OK, there's our guy.
This is the guy that's going to have the mind and the curiosity
and the persistence and dedication to really bring
through the innovation and and kind of the up leveling of a of
a technology that's been in use by humans for thousands and
thousands of years. That's my guess.
You know, and then both of you have kind of talked in different
ways about what maybe as astrologers I could I could put
in the framework of a Mercury, Jupiter relationship.
You know, both of you have talked about these big pictures,
right? Like Haley, you were talking
about that and the response to the question I had about story.
And Gary, you've been talking about these big picture, you
know, what are we doing in in the kind of larger sense of this
history? And then both of you are also
people who are really interested in the details of things.
And I see that you have a Jupiter opposition in your
chart. And, you know, I imagine that
each of you might illuminate for each other some details and big
pictures that the other person would find fascinating.
Where am I going with this? I guess, you know, I have a
curiosity based on what you both have shared so far and to bring
us back to the film, what do you both hope the outcome is of this
project and what it's becoming? There's many layers to it.
I think from like a filmmaker perspective, outside of subject,
it is not easy to get people to watch feature length films.
Right? 82 Minutes is actually a short
feature length film, which is the runtime of Star Cash.
But if you are not in the ecosystem of a major streamer,
so Netflix, Hulu, HBO, etcetera, it's hard to get people to watch
things, right? I think one for convenience,
right? You have subscriptions to all
these things. So if you're sitting in front of
ATV and it's a smart TV, you have the apps of where you go to
watch movies. So I'm interested in how do you
let people know that there is a film to watch outside of that
ecosystem and get them interested enough to watch it
and evangelize it. Getting as many people outside
of that ecosystem to watch the film as possible is #1
importance. It's not even to make money on
the film. It's really just how many people
can we get to watch this outside of a theatrical run?
So there's no theaters involved and it's just digital.
That to me is really interesting.
And then the second side of it is, or the other side of it is,
how do you get people to watch a film about astrology and perhaps
not having been interested in astrology at all, or they just
watched it, put it on, whatever. Could they change their
understanding of the field in general?
So, yeah, those are the two things that I'm interested in.
And then even just, you know, eventually I just want to put it
on YouTube because I'm a big believer in YouTube.
I think YouTube as a filmmaker is a big part of the future and
it is a very democratic way, right?
Like it's you and the audience only the just the platform is
the only mediator between that and you know, you can get
potentially like a bigger audience that way more people
can see it because the algorithm will suggest it.
You know, YouTube has one of the best algorithms outside of
TikTok for suggested content. So I guess like, yeah, my answer
is more like the mechanics of filmmaking and film distribution
in general, because I think it's a big problem because there's so
many films out there that people just don't see because it's
they're not on the major streamers.
So yeah. In the documentary, you talked a
little bit about your personal chart and getting readings from
astrologers that would say things like, oh, you have a
drive for success or celebrity, you know, we see this in your
chart or something like that. And in what you're sharing, I'm
hearing a little bit of that as well.
Like there's this kind of orientation towards this
distribution. You know, you want people to see
this work. I guess as an astrologer, I
always have a question of like, what is the larger influence?
Like what is the bigger story that's happening?
And I'm curious, why is it important for people to have
this information about astrology and the correlation potentially
between astrology and markets? What do you hope that that does
in the world for consciousness? I think it's seeing kind of
between the lines and watching the film this, you know, might
give it away, but maybe it's interesting to to people who
would watch the film, but it's so much bigger than just, you
know, astrology in the markets. I think the real threat is, you
know, the relationships that I built and then also just
astrology as a whole. And so really just like opening
people's minds potentially to things that they had not thought
about when it came to astrology. I think also showing the world
this like specific community in astrology, like the old guard of
astrology in a lot of ways as like information accelerates,
there's more voices in the room. I have, like, a great respect
for age and time and the wisdom that comes with that.
And I think people have less and less of that as like, more
voices enter the enter the stage, which I think is just a
rite of passage. Because even Gary has said at
some point that, you know, when he was young, they all thought
that they were the best and wanted to, you know, break away
from the elders and from that. That was.
And so. Yeah.
So just like platforming them. Yeah.
I really see that admiration and I'm going to say a word.
I'm not sure you resonate with it, but I would say devotion in
your sinistry with, with Gary, your generational placement of
Uranus, Neptune and Capricorn makes a grand trine with his son
Mars and Taurus and Saturn and Virgo.
And it's such a beautiful aspect of a relationship that, you
know, builds a bridge, I think, and, and really helps
generations come together. Gary, I'm I'm curious for you.
So again, this has been 1/4 of a Saturn cycle that you've been
getting to know. Haley, you were one of the main
astrologers featured and interviewed in the film.
And, you know, is that a new experience for you or are you at
this point pretty used to being in the limelight, you know, and,
and how has this experience with Haley changed you and the way
that you interact with astrology?
I've. I've always been large with my
peers, so getting attention from that, that's never been an
issue. But the thing with Haley's work
is this. Haley's going to move on.
She's going to do other artistic projects, and they're going to
get better and better as her life goes on in general, and
she's going to get into all aspects of stuff.
But this project, well, it's near to my heart.
Someone coming around and doing a film.
And how many documentaries have you seen in astrology?
You'll always see a National Geographic Wildlife Special, but
no astrologers in the wild. We haven't had any kind of media
attention outside of the most tabloid superficial stuff, you
know, a syndicated column in the newspapers, an occasional
astrologer who would get on the radio.
Right now, we're in the era of podcasts.
You could actually have the following, you know, you can
actually do things that that have a lasting effect.
But in our age, no, it was always the laugh track.
There was never anything serious going on so.
Haley's water in the desert. Can somebody come in the camera
and they're going to record the things that are dear to your
heart and your profession? Hey, it gets all the support we
possibly can give it. So I look at the work from not
as Haley's artistic expression, but as literally a documentary
of an era that will pass, you know?
And it isn't just us old farts dropping dead or anything like
that. It's the idea that astrology
never got developed. And it is going to be developed,
that's the thing. And when astrology starts
getting developed, it's not going to look anything like what
we've learned in our lifetimes. So Haley's documentary might be
the last of an old world view of the way we actually practice
that the way we actually conducted our lives.
And do you think that the development of astrology is with
computing and like quantum computing that that's where it's
going or? One of the interesting things of
being in the software business, the technical business, we get
to see a lot of technique. Now people endow that technique
with all different feelings and materials, their observations
and stuff. So the psychological materials,
the, the technical type materials, you know, their
astrologers are highly, highly technical in their orientation
and this and that. They don't have too many human
qualities to them. Then there are astrologers that
basically are, you know, they play 3 chords and a lot of
people listen and they can really relate to it.
You don't need a lot of smarts. You need the ability to be
empathetic. You need the ability to
understand how a symbol literally is going to affect or
be imposed on a person's life. Now, where astrology is going to
go, I think it's going to go very much along the lines of
medicine. We're going to continue to be a
craft, right? We're going to get better,
though, at what we're doing and the things that we're doing are
going to change. But we have to be very careful.
If it goes in One Direction, we're all screwed, really.
If it goes in another direction, we're all enamored.
We all get to expand. And I do not want to have
children born and classified. You're going to be a street
sweeper, Nothing better than that.
You're you're going to do this. You know, I like the idea of us
having a sense of destiny, but not having a quantified destiny,
you know? That's why it's, it's important
to take it seriously, you know, to take astrology as like a
serious subject and not just something kind of frivolous
because like what Gary's speaking to is like the
potential of where astrology can go could potentially be
nefarious if in the wrong hands. I mean, just knowing about how
astrology has been used and currently is used, and you know
that already happens. Years ago, there was an article
in New York about a, a, a group in Brooklyn who were fighting
over an apartment building because they didn't get along
astrologically. It was big news.
And it was a court case going on and all kinds of stuff because,
you know, they, they felt that they had signed contracts to
live in this building, but that their astrological connections
just didn't work, you know, and they blamed it on astrology.
And what I hear in that also is, you know, the kind of refusal to
accept personal responsibility to work with your own
placements, right? And so this way that astrology
can be used as a prescription to tell people who they are or to
make a prediction about what will happen is very much coming
from a controlling mind versus someone who is engaging with
astrology as a tool for self reflection and growth.
And a kind of interaction or relationship with the living
world that is also somewhat malleable, that has like various
choices and opportunities in it where people can choose to grow
or not. Well, you know, one of the
earliest forms of astrology, the the earlier Babylonian forms was
always an if then consideration, but they always had a remedy.
This is something that's lacking in modern astrology.
We don't have too many remedies per SE, but but the Babylonians,
every single malefic condition they had, this is how to get rid
of it. This is how to get God off your
back, so to so to speak. You know well.
I'd like to jump in there actually, and maybe this can
lead us to my, my last question for you both, because what I do,
you know, embodied astrology as a praxis is not actually heavily
based in technique, although we love technique.
You know, we learn a lot of it, we share a lot of it, but really
take the approach of kind of a, a personal empowerment path and
a spiritual path. You know what, what's the energy
that's here that we're wanting to respond to?
And so remedies often do come up in contemplation and group work,
and they're often cyclical or they have something to do with a
kind of larger collective or ancestral pattern.
And so, you know, like we might find in our own charts, like,
oh, there's this pattern that's here that's not just about me
personally, but it links into society at large or it links me
with my family or something like that.
And so the remedy then is to actually participate in a in a
kind of larger collective way and to feel ourselves in in
relationship with that. And for me, you know, engaging
with your film, on the one hand, I was completely fascinated
because I love everything to do with astrology.
And it was so fun to get to meet Gary and, you know, this other
cast of characters that you bring in and also to follow your
line of inquiry. And it made me more curious
about financial astrology, But it also brought up a question
for me around the history of markets.
And the stock market was established first in Amsterdam
with the East India Trading Company, and then the New York
Stock Exchange was a place to trade enslaved people.
And so I'm curious about, you know, engaging with markets that
were created to trade stolen extracted resources and people
who were stolen. And this isn't something that
the film touches on. And it's nothing that the
investors are going to talk about or the financial
astrologers are necessarily talking about.
But considering that astrology is cyclical and the history of
modern markets and the stock market in particular, is driving
an ongoing legacy of colonialism, do either of you
feel any like, particular? I'm going to say responsibility,
but I could also say hope you know, or intentionality to these
legacies, you know, and, and the way that you're working with
investors or potentially also astrologers who might be
interested in this application. Well, well, I can't speak for
Haley, but if you indulge me for a second or two, this is
something that's very, very important at this time.
And we're going to go off into left field in essence, because,
listen, this is the world of AI we're coming into.
And you have to understand that we're at a mutation with Jupiter
and Saturn. We've just gone into air signs,
right, right. These mutations take 200 years.
We go back to the last mutation. It was Earth.
Can I just pause for a second for our listeners, Garrett, can
you talk about the great conjunctions and actually lay
that out? Because I feel like that's
important. You're just saying the mutation
but. Oh, it's a very important thing
because it's this is the basis of all of our societal
movements. We don't live much longer than a
Saturn transit, and Uranus is basically the outer limits for
US, 84 years. So Jupiter and Saturn, when they
come together, they make a conjunction every 20 years and
it's usually in the same element.
So for the last 200 years they've been conjoining in Earth
signs, Earth signs, Earth signs now as of once with Reagan, but
now forever. The for the next 200 years, the
Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions will be in air signs and it
follows suit with everything that's going on.
But here's The thing is the development of AI itself, right,
the LLM models and things like that, You have to think about
the last 200 years. It was really 250 years ago when
they started going into the Earth signs and labor became the
issue. Prior to 1800, there were no big
factories per SE. There was no big labor
movements. It was just a quasi capitalism
basically, right? If the king gave you a charter,
it was a good thing, right? You could make beer, right?
But as we get into the 1800s, Adam Smith comes along with the
Wealth of Nations and basically says, hey, listen, get your
capital together and you get all these workers and you can
exploit the living shit out of them whether they're slaves or
not, right? And you're going to make
yourself $1,000,000 and and enrich society.
The hand of God will move the markets.
Well, after 50 years of that, Marx came along and says, oh,
this is bad news. Look at these slaves over in
England. It stinks, right?
We have to have a different system.
We have to have a socialist system.
The workers have to own everything.
Well, you have to realize that Saturn and Jupiter, making their
conjunctions in the earth signs, exploits the earth absolutely.
The first 100 years was the exploitation of Labor and
exploitation of the earth. The 2nd 100 years was the
liberation of the workers, right?
First we have World War in the 2nd and it's the way it goes
with Saturn and Jupiter conjunctions.
The first 100 years are horrible.
The 2nd 100 years are much better.
When there's a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn.
The 1st 10 years are horrible. The 2nd 10 years are much
better, right? So right now we're in the
horrible first part of the 10 years of the Jupiter Saturn
conjunction in the first time in the air signs.
Well, the problem is this is when we get to the 2nd 100
years, the first thing that occurs is World War 1.
And in World War One, we got rid of the patriarchy we got.
What are you talking about? The patriarchy is alive and
well. You understand the way I'm
coming from? World War One got rid of all the
kings, all the potentates and all the warlords.
Seriously. And democracies were left.
However, people, they can't give up daddy images, they can't give
up listening to the Big Eight. That beats everybody up.
So World War 2 happens in the second phase of the European
Revolution occurs where we have to get rid of the false kings
and the false uncles. Uncle Stalin, Uncle Chen, Kai
Shek, Uncle Roosevelt, right, Uncle Churchill, all of these
guys, they all had to go the end of World War 2.
Nobody's driving the bus anymore.
It literally is the idea of the rise of the American empire.
And of course, we were promoting representational democracies and
things of this nature. I mean, this seems to be the
time when corporations really take that role.
At the end of World War Two, we gave the world to corporations
and we invented the middle class.
I don't really understand how that's better than the first 100
years. It just seems to accelerate some
of what was that it's. Better than this, right so we
get to the end of this period and we start going into the air
signs the first thing that occurs is the beginning of the
World Wide Web, the idea of an interconnected social network,
which. By the way, both of you have
placement personal placements conjunct that conjunction.
The 1980 Libra conjunction was pretty much on Gary's Moon and
Haley's Ascendant in in Jupiter. Well, the idea is basically this
is is what we're coming to in the world is a very big
existential problem. And that is we've invented the
AIS. People do not understand that we
have 70 years worth of experience of making robots that
do everything. They build this computer, they
build the TV's, they build everything, all cars, right?
All they have to do is put the LLM models into the robots that
are already there. The robots don't have to look
like humans, right? But they will do.
Right now they're telling children to go learn how to be
electricians and plumbers because, oh, you'll still have a
job after the AI revolution. Wrong.
Those are going to be the first jobs to go, as well as the
lawyers and doctors and everybody else.
The idea is that we will not need a working class.
It's an intellectual class. And the problem is all of our
structures, our democracies, our, our financial structures
and everything else are all predicated on the exploitation
of people. There won't be people to
exploit. And what will happen to the
people? They won't be able to afford the
robots if they aren't part of the whole situation.
What's going to happen is we need to create an entirely
different system of governance. And always in sci-fi, you always
have the council of elders and stuff like that.
Well, as you can see from the US Supreme Court, that kind of
stuff gets corrupted just as fast as anything else.
And so we have a serious problem.
We can't have 5 corporations running the world.
It's just not going to be. So we will have a very
interesting 100 years ahead of us.
The next five years or so are the years of corruption.
It's unfortunate we're going to be living through these things.
OK, so pause, Gary. So this film potentially puts at
least the interest, if not the techniques, because you guys
didn't reveal really the techniques of financial
astrology in the film. You you gave a good teaser, but
there is a potential with this film that you're going to get
more people interested in using astrology to work the markets.
I think the markets are going to collapse because of AI.
OK, thank you. This is the I'm wondering like
what are we doing with this information?
Listen, astrology can predict the markets to a certain extent.
You got to realize we're still playing with stone knives and
axes. We're not that technically
adept. We're we're back there when
they're trying to turn lead into gold.
And that's where we froze for 2000 years.
There's been no technical advancement until computers came
along. They're not the answer either.
So astrology can predict the markets.
We can do that sort of stuff that's we've been doing that for
thousands of years. But when the AIS come along,
well, they're going to rig the markets.
Right now, the AIS are already involved.
Once people realize, once the banks will realize that it's,
it's, it's a rigged casino that there are devices that can
predict where the market's going to go.
They're not going to trust the markets any longer.
And so we'll have a financial collapse.
That's an inversion. It's a, it'll be, it's not a
collapse because of lack of materials or this or that.
It'll be a collapse because there's no place to put the
money. Do you, do you see that in our
current astrology with Uranus coming back into Gemini?
Like do you think that's coming up pretty?
Soon I think about it isn't just the Uranus crossing at the
Gemini is Uranus, Pluto and Neptune have all changed signs.
And they're all talking to each other.
We've all gone from negative to positive signs.
The idea is that it's the interplay between Uranus and
Pluto and Neptune. The midpoint of Uranus and Pluto
has been on Neptune all the time that Neptune has crossed the
cardinal axis, which is why we've been in an era where truth
and authenticity has been in scarce supply.
You know, it's the Neptune, Saturn conjoining on the
cardinal axis. The world has never seen
anything like that in the last 15,000 years.
We looked, I had my programmer, one of my programmers, Doug
Kellogg, do a study on the Jupiter and Saturn conjunction
to see did this thing occur on the cardinal axis anywhere else
in history? The closest we came the closest
was the 15th century during the 100 Years War from Reformation
because of Gutenberg's press. Well, we're the same distance
from Gutenberg's press as we are from the World Wide Web.
In time right now, where the Reformation occurs and
everything blows up, we're in the same position with the World
Wide Web. It all blows up, and that's why
it's the AI scariest thing now, astrology.
This movie is the last of the way astrology will have been
after all the TikTok people and everything else passes.
But when the popular wave of astrology passes by, astrology
will be seen as very authentic. And from that perspective right
is where we decide astrology get how would you put it?
Corrupted? Or does astrology become a
spiritual savior for the world and and the idea of it becoming
corrupted will be in the hands of an autocracy or a situation
where how you deal with the people becomes a problem?
So we're in for very large transformations because of this
time. The next four or five years is
the time of corruption. The period after that, there'll
have to be a revolution because of the distribution of goods.
But I can say this, the latter part of the century, as we get
into the 20 sixties, the world does become a wonderful,
wonderful place really. We had spirituality gets
widespread built with technology and everything else.
But we have to go through two really horrible periods, just
like World War One and World War 22, very horrible periods that
are facing us right now. And, and, and as I said, this
film, this documentary describes a time that will never exist
again, right? It won't our, our worlds are
changing. This is a, a movie about the old
world, you know, and a time when astrology was a, a certain way
at a certain level. And it's not going to be the
same after this. So that's how I see the movie.
I see the movie as, Oh my God, Haley froze something in time.
It's really nice. It's really wonderful, you know,
and we have a record of it now. It's a historical document.
We don't see documentaries in astrology.
Thank you. Gary, I have a slight
disagreement with something that you said about, you know, the
age of corruption or something being now, because I know that
astrology has already been used in really corrupt ways for a
long time. And it's part of the history of
astrology actually. You know that it's gets driven
underground and persecuted when it becomes too available to the
people and the people start to feel liberated by it.
And then it continues to be used by kings, by military rulers, by
Ronald Reagan, etcetera. But you know, with any
technology, I think there's potentials to use it for really
beautiful, generative life nourishing ways and very
destructive ways. So maybe we'll just finish up
with you, Haley and and I'll revisit this, this question that
I feel like I've already asked you, but maybe I can ask it in a
different way now around, you know, what Gary has offered in
terms of this being a time capsule and what you've also
talked to in that. And then the engagement that you
had with with markets and this potential that maybe the market
is also a relic of the past. You know, soon if, if there's
like one prayer that you want to send out with this film as it
gets distributed, you know, in Mass and all kinds of people get
to see it, What is that prayer? How does it infuse those who
view it and what the world becomes?
It's difficult because think I see the release of the film as a
death, right? Like, it's actually not a birth,
at least for me, right? For me, it's a death.
It's a full cycle. And so I have to mourn that it
no longer belongs to me and my, like, you know, curated womb.
And that it now is. Yeah, I guess to extend the
metaphor being raised by everyone else's, like
perceptions and how they're going to take the film and like
stories that they're lessons they're going to take for men or
new perspectives that they could take from it.
My hope, you know, is that it opens people's minds to
astrology as something more than just like a, you know, back of
the newspaper sunshine horoscope that it's, you know, not a
pseudoscience and, you know, the pejorative sense that it's
something ancient or that it's something wise.
There's wisdom to it that is beyond all of us and that there
are different pockets of astrology.
Again, it's not a monolith, obviously.
Like I didn't even touch Eastern astrology and to touch Vedic, I
didn't touch Mayan astrology. I didn't touch any of that
because that's not my story to tell.
And otherwise, it's been a very long movie.
And yeah, it's just to open up this world with, like, a new
lens and something that Christine, who's in the film,
she's British and something she had said to me off camera after
she watched it. And was that she also just hopes
that it encourages other people to, you know, if they're
interested in filmmaking, even to a slight degree, that they
know that anything's possible, that you can just make
something, you know, and that you can make your own movie
about astrology. And that she hopes to see more
documentaries about astrology from all these other
perspectives, 'cause this is just one piece of the pie, you
know? And so it's just to kind of
maybe make a nudge, nudge something forward, nudge like a
perspective forward. If I had a hope for this
document, it is it is that just a little, just a new perspective
and the importance, you know, the importance of taking
something seriously that maybe others have just deemed
ridiculous. And I think that's always been
the work that I make has shown, I hope has shown like reverence
and deference to perspectives. The world at large make deem
silly. I find it difficult to watch
things sometimes where you can tell that, you know, the film
makers behind it or the team behind it don't really care, you
know, or don't really like, give reverence to their subjects.
It's, it is more of a sideshow, right?
It's more of a freak show. And I I take great care to make
sure that I'm never treating anyone in my films or around my
films, Like I'm just kind of popping in for a day, showing
something weird or kooky, and then popping back out.
Well, thank you both for this conversation.
I, you know, as a professional astrologer and someone who's
really devoted to the field and also, you know, I feel really
engaged with its growth and evolution.
I just really want to appreciate both of you for your dedication
to the field also. And yeah, Gary, thank you so
much for being an ancestor, you know, to all of us and a
transmitter of uranium intelligence.
And I really hope to. Yeah.
Learn more about your practice, then hope you get to keep
practicing well past your Uranus return.
Thank you. Haley, thank you for for your
interest and for making this film and bringing forward
possibilities that you know hopefully will spur new interest
in astrology and generative interest in it.
I hope it does. Thank you so much for your time.
Yes, for having us all. You're welcome, It's really nice
to meet both of you.