1
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See, this is the problem with 
the gold industry. 

2
00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,000
They lower the cut off grade to 
profitless prosperity. 

3
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,280
What are you going to do with 
your cut off grade? 

4
00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,960
You know, are you going to keep 
it the same in the coming year 

5
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,560
or keep lowering it to 
profitless prosperity? 

6
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,600
You know, if you are an 
investor, what you're looking 

7
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,600
for is you want to capture that 
margin. 

8
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,080
JD Gold is back, Gold's back. 
It's it's having, it's having 

9
00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:26,480
it's, you know, it's coming back
after a little bit of a little 

10
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,440
bit of time in there in the 
brief sin bin. 

11
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,280
It was a very pause, just a 
pause. 

12
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,680
It's back. 
The equities are are roaring 

13
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:34,600
again. 
It's a little bit of excitement 

14
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back in the market earning 
season has come out and 

15
00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,160
everyone's realizing that these 
gold companies are making an 

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00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:43,760
absolute fortune at the moment. 
And so very topically we've got 

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00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,520
we've got the very kind Greg 
Aral who runs runs the OCM gold 

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fund. 
And mate, you've been doing this

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for for 30 odd years. 
You're so familiar with the 

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00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,440
Golden Precious equities where 
we're delighted to to have you 

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00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,760
joining us all the way from from
the United updates and we're 

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00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,120
keen to talk everything gold 
equities with you today. 

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00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,280
All right, my pleasure. 
Looking forward to it and enjoy 

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your show. 
Great to hear Greg. 

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00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,480
I think the the logical place to
kick this one off is the the run

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up in gold equities and the the 
even more extreme run up in the 

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gold price has seen earnings 
like Trav said be quite strong. 

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How have you sort of reflected 
on the profit margins and the 

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the money being earned by minors
across the globe really in in 

30
00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:32,560
the past couple months of 
earnings? 

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00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,480
Yeah. 
I mean, I think it's been a bit 

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00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,920
slow on the uptake by generalist
investors really. 

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If you, if you look back at, you
know, how this year has gone, I 

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00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,720
mean, every quarter you've seen 
an increase in the gold price 

35
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and you know, the though the, 
the price of the shares have 

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gone up, you really haven't 
gotten the enthusiasm that you 

37
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,080
would normally would, that it 
would be typically associated 

38
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,080
with bull markets. 
Partly that is to do with the 

39
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,120
broader market continues to run.
And so, you know, gold is looked

40
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,120
at as a defensive type of asset.
And so, you know, with the 

41
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,400
broader market running, you 
know, especially tech, AI, et 

42
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cetera, you haven't had a lot of
folks, you know, feel like they 

43
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,440
need to chase, you know, into 
the gold space. 

44
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,120
And so, you know, you've seen 
the GDX come in with, you know, 

45
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,520
20% less shares than, you know, 
they've had, you know, at the 

46
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,160
beginning of the year, which 
gives you the idea that, you 

47
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,040
know, money is still coming out 
of this space. 

48
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,880
So, you know, I, I look at, you 
know, where we're going, you 

49
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,160
know, there's more room to more 
room to run. 

50
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,320
Obviously sitting in my seat, 
I'd like to think that, but you 

51
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,040
know, I still look at it and, 
you know, believe that, you 

52
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,440
know, we're going to see more 
retail, we're going to see more 

53
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,040
institutional investors come 
into this space and you'll see 

54
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,960
these margins start to press 
out, you know, So you know what 

55
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:12,200
happens, you know, in a bull 
market, you know, the, the, the 

56
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,840
number of companies that you 
know, really start taking off 

57
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,320
and you know, start to, you 
know, see M&A at the top of a 

58
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cycle. 
You know, you'll see, you know, 

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00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:29,680
the gold XAU ratio be somewhere,
you know, north of, you know, 6 

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00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,760
probably at a peak. 
And you know, you're still, you 

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00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,520
know, at a much lower level than
that right now. 

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00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,440
And so, you know, what we're 
still seeing is a lot of, you 

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00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,680
know, still a lot of room to 
grow just by, you know, 

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00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,160
investors coming in. 
And so if you look at the cycles

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of, you know, when gold goes to,
you know, at a peak, you know, 

66
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,800
you'll you know, the gold price 
will peak. 

67
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,240
You know, this is, you know, 
looking back at, you know, 1980 

68
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,160
and, you know, the gold price 
peaks and you know, the shares 

69
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,360
don't really, I mean, they they 
fall off, but then they have the

70
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real bull market run comes in 
that period that came 

71
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,040
afterwards. 
And there, you know, there was 

72
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,880
a, you know, big bull market. 
I mean, that's when you, you 

73
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,839
know, pulled in, you know, the 
barracks that were created and 

74
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,560
you know, the companies were 
created with, you know, settling

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00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,480
at a higher gold price. 
And I still think we're going 

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00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,160
to, what's going to happen is 
we're going to settle at, you 

77
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,600
know, a gold price that, you 
know, once the US can get its 

78
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,360
debt situation squared away is 
we're going to get a gold price 

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00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,680
that stabilizes at a, you know, 
pretty significant level that, 

80
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,840
you know, folks, you know, 
they're still looking back and 

81
00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:45,320
saying, oh, well, gold price 
can't handle, you know, it's not

82
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,280
going to stay above 3000. 
And I think right now, when you 

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00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:50,920
start looking at these gold 
shares, you know, they're 

84
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,880
they're starting to get, you 
know, a feeling a base of, you 

85
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,880
know, OK, 30 three, $3400. 
That's a that's a good base, you

86
00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,680
know, so we're, you know, we're 
just kind of just getting our 

87
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,400
feet wet do. 
You think the consensus view is 

88
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,320
that gold can't hold above 3000?
I think that has been the 

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00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,600
consensus, absolutely, yeah. 
And I mean, the Aussies have 

90
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,280
been weak for a while. 
You know, they took off over the

91
00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,000
last month. 
And I think that was finally 

92
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,240
some belief, you know, coming in
for, you know, the, the gold 

93
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,400
price is going to hold above 
3000. 

94
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,400
It's, you know, you're starting 
to deliver, whether it's a West 

95
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,840
Gold or you know many of these 
companies, you know they're 

96
00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:36,440
starting to deliver, you know 
some, you know decent cash. 

97
00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:41,040
The, the, it's, it's what do 
you, when you look back through 

98
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,920
history at the, the periods 
where like gold miners have very

99
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,040
substantial like margin, it does
it, do they actually have a 

100
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,720
sustained period of, of strong 
margins typically or does 

101
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,520
inflation often kind of erode 
their, their margins pretty 

102
00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:55,760
quickly? 
Because that's the in the back 

103
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,200
of my mind, like if inflation 
comes back pretty sharply, like 

104
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,520
all of a sudden cost pressures 
just surely just eat into into 

105
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,240
the margins. 
Yeah. 

106
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,880
I mean, and you've seen some 
cost pressures and I mean, right

107
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,520
now you're starting to see, you 
know, where the price of inputs 

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00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,160
has leveled off a bit. 
You know, it's, it's, you know, 

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00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,160
they're up and, you know, if you
look at all in sustaining costs,

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00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:23,000
you know, being up over the last
year, you know, part of that is,

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00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,160
you know, when, you know, the 
miners are making money, you 

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00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,120
know, they do put money back in 
under the ground that they they 

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00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,600
need to put back in, you know, 
which you know, then allows them

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00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,960
to sustain themselves, you know,
when the gold price goes back 

115
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,520
down a bit. 
But yeah, you do see a level of 

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00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,000
inflation that comes in. 
Everybody wants their piece, 

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00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,080
whether it's governments or 
employees. 

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00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,600
But you know, what I've seen so 
far is that, yeah, we have a, 

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00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,280
you know, a gold price that, you
know, is allowing for margin 

120
00:06:57,280 --> 00:06:59,920
expansion. 
And, you know, the gold price, 

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00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,600
you know, at this port point in 
the cycle is going faster, is 

122
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,200
moving faster than the inflation
is. 

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00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,680
And that's important if we're 
margin expansion. 

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00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,240
Totally. 
The the, the point you made on 

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sentiment is, is really 
interesting. 

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00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,320
Greg, how do you reflect on the 
sentiment in the states? 

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00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,400
Because I see on the one hand 
like Walmart selling out of gold

128
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,720
coins and stuff, but on the 
other hand, to the point you 

129
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,640
made earlier, tech is the, the 
consensus trade and all these 

130
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,040
sorts of things. 
So from your perspective in in 

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00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,520
that part of the world, how do 
people think about gold? 

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00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,040
Now people, you know, the, the, 
like I said, they're the look at

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00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,560
gold is from a defensive 
standpoint and you've had, you 

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00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,760
know, this money that's moved 
into crypto. 

135
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,800
And I think that, you know, at 
some point when you, you know, 

136
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,480
there's a high correlation 
between crypto and NASDAQ. 

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00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,800
And once the NASDAQ does break, 
I still think it will at some 

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00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,320
point. 
I mean, you've got NVIDIA and, 

139
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,920
you know, these stocks, Palantir
that are trading, you know, it, 

140
00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,160
you know, multiples of, you 
know, their revenues and, and 

141
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,200
earnings that, you know, 
typically mean that, you know, 

142
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,440
they they've reached a peak. 
Yeah, because you, it takes 

143
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,400
years to go in and, you know, 
finally earn, you know, those 

144
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,440
multiples. 
And, you know, whether it was 

145
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,280
Cisco and, you know, the 2000 
era or Sun Microsystems, you 

146
00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,320
know, Sun Microsystems, you 
know, trading 10 times revenue, 

147
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,200
you know, it's, it just was, you
know, it just gets to the point 

148
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,360
where it's too far. 
And, you know, I, I think we're 

149
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,480
getting that now and, you know, 
the cycle. 

150
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,680
But you know, still, there's so 
much money that's been made in 

151
00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:51,960
NASDAQ and the tech stocks, it's
going to be a real tough to try 

152
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,800
to turn that and have people 
believe it's over. 

153
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,680
So, you know, I, I think that, 
you know, where sentiment is 

154
00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:05,800
right now, you know, in the gold
space is that, you know, they 

155
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,200
still need to see the, the 
market roll over. 

156
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,520
And then you'll then you'll get,
you know, some broader 

157
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,640
participation. 
You mentioned that like in the 

158
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,640
in the good times, these gold 
companies, they put the money 

159
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,760
back in, in into the ground. 
I'm noticing a lot of lowering 

160
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,320
of the cut off grades occurring.
And, and then, and then to 

161
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,360
coincide with that, there's a, a
meal expansion study on the way.

162
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,720
So like, you know, these gold 
miners, they've got excess 

163
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,640
capital, but they're, they're 
just lowering the cut off 

164
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,920
grades, doing the meal expansion
and saying that costs are going 

165
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,880
to be able to moderate from, 
from economies of scale with a 

166
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,800
bigger meal, but then they're 
depleting the resource faster 

167
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,440
once you've got a much bigger 
meal, like you kind of, you kind

168
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:45,840
of always have to keep that 
thing full. 

169
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,800
It's a you can't go back after 
doing that. 

170
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,400
So how do you, how do you like 
weigh up your, your views of 

171
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,200
just like discipline around not 
lowering the cut off grade and, 

172
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:56,400
and and and doing this sort of 
thing? 

173
00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:58,680
Yeah, stay away from those 
companies. 

174
00:09:58,800 --> 00:09:59,400
Really. 
Why? 

175
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:00,560
Yeah. 
Please. 

176
00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:01,760
Please tell me why. 
Like why? 

177
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:02,320
Why? 
Why you didn't? 

178
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,080
Believe that. 
I mean look, see this is the 

179
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,440
problem with the gold industry 
is that you know they lower the 

180
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,720
cut off grade to profitless 
prosperity. 

181
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:17,960
And so, you know, if you are an 
investor, what you're looking 

182
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,920
for is you want to capture that 
margin. 

183
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,680
I mean, the story that, you 
know, fund managers like to tell

184
00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:29,680
is that OK, the gold price is, 
you know, it's, it's $2000 an 

185
00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:33,280
ounce and it's going to $3000 an
ounce and our cost is 1000. 

186
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,200
And look at we're going to have 
100% increase in our margin. 

187
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,720
And, and if you sit there and 
lower the cut off grade to, you 

188
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:49,520
know, .000001, you're going to 
be in a position to where, you 

189
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,640
know that, you know, margin goes
down to nothing. 

190
00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:56,160
And this is historically what 
has been the problem with the 

191
00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,680
gold miners is that they have 
destroyed, you know, the 

192
00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:03,320
margins. 
And I think, you know, one of 

193
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,800
the things that, you know, I 
certainly preach in all the 

194
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:12,520
meetings is and ask management 
are OK, well, what are you going

195
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,280
to do with your, your cut off 
grade? 

196
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,920
You know, are you going to keep 
it the same in the coming year 

197
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,840
or, you know, or are you going 
to, you know, keep lowering it 

198
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,120
to profit less prosperity? 
And then, you know, they all 

199
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,240
say, Oh well, you know, we, you 
know, going to try to, you know,

200
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,120
manage it and you know, you 
know, try to keep the margins. 

201
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,160
But you know, we want to make 
sure that we extend the mine 

202
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,280
lives because we already have 
the capital spent. 

203
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,280
Well, if you have that capital 
spent, you know, you don't 

204
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:47,080
necessarily, you know, you don't
necessarily make more money by 

205
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,240
lowering the cutoff grade, even 
though you know some of these 

206
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,000
guys think that they are going 
to. 

207
00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,640
So Travis, Matt, I'm going to 
share something with you that 

208
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,560
Greg shared with me before the 
interviews, this little bit of 

209
00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:00,080
insight into his checklist. 
Do you know what was the top of 

210
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,320
his checklist for investing in 
an underground gold mining 

211
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,040
company? 
It's not anything to do with 

212
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,080
lowering the cut off grade. 
Is a is a bad thing. 

213
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,720
That's like a. 
Not at all. 

214
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,480
The key detail is mate the 
company has to use Sandvik 

215
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,440
ground support. 
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah of. 

216
00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:17,680
Course. 
And it makes sense, right? 

217
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,160
Yeah, great companies want to 
work with great people and other

218
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,800
great companies, companies that 
deliver great products and why 

219
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,400
not work with the best in the 
industry in Sandy Ground 

220
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,200
Support? 
It's a signal of the type of 

221
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,720
company you are. 
If you understand that using 

222
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,920
Sandy ground support is going to
save you time, time is valuable.

223
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,520
It's going to save you a lot of 
a lot of just like bandwidth 

224
00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:40,920
knowing that you can depend on 
the product that's coming and 

225
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,360
it's of course going to be as 
safe as there is humanly 

226
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,800
possible because of the R&D that
goes into making this ground 

227
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,040
support a truly innovative 
product that's essential for 

228
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,960
safety. 
We were speaking about this R&D 

229
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,160
before, whether it's the Resins,
the Easy 10, the latest bolts 

230
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,240
they've got, whether it's the 
app, they are innovating on 

231
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,320
every single front of the 
business. 

232
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,560
Not to mention they are working 
in every single corner of the 

233
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,240
world so they can get that 
product to the mine site as 

234
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,440
quick as possible. 
And of all the things you 

235
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,760
mentioned in saving there, the 
biggest one is money. 

236
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,680
Mate, you know, offense, I can't
wait to I can't wait to go to 

237
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,000
Kewdale and see some of this 
innovation with the main man 

238
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,280
Derek, Kurt, I think it's going 
to happen later this month. 

239
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,800
You and I, we're going to Q day 
with Derek. 

240
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,520
Kurt, I can't wait. 
Go Sandy ground support. 

241
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:24,160
Go Sandy. 
It's. 

242
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,040
Such an interesting, yeah, such 
an interesting reflection on the

243
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,200
on the capital allocation 
decisions of management in the 

244
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,640
sector. 
And I think there's also just 

245
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,280
like a, everyone thinks that 
they need to have growth in 

246
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:36,720
their portfolio. 
They, they, they've got to have 

247
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,360
a, they've either got to 
maintain production or have a 

248
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,720
growth project. 
And if you look at the, the, the

249
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,080
gold company that commands the 
most, the highest multiple in 

250
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,960
the space, they're X growth. 
They don't have any growth, but 

251
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,800
they, they do, they have, they 
have maintained margin like they

252
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,440
have maintained their costs, 
right. 

253
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,040
Agnico, of course. 
Yeah. 

254
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,520
So Agnico's, you know, they're, 
and they're, you know, right now

255
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,840
saying, hey, look, if we don't 
have any, a good project to put 

256
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,400
more money in, you know, we're 
going to give that money back to

257
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,840
shareholders. 
And that plays well, you know, 

258
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,880
for investors. 
And I, I think, you know that, 

259
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,360
you know, there are projects out
there. 

260
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,840
I mean, this is this is one of 
the things that it's going to be

261
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,840
tough because I mean, when you 
look at a mining company, when 

262
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,480
they acquire a new project, you 
know, they have to look at it 

263
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,920
from the standpoint of, of, you 
know, getting a return on that 

264
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,880
capital and whether it's issuing
shares or issuing cash, you have

265
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,200
to get a return that is 
commensurate with real, you 

266
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,800
know, competitive returns in 
other industries. 

267
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,120
And I think that's one of the 
problems that, you know, 

268
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,640
historically the industry had is
that, you know, you were, yeah, 

269
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,640
in a bull market. 
You know, it was growth for 

270
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,880
growth's sake. 
And if you were going out 

271
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,440
looking for a project, you, you 
just issued more shares. 

272
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,400
You got bigger, everybody got 
bigger salaries and everything 

273
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,600
was wonderful. 
I think, you know, what Agnico's

274
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,800
is doing a good job of is, you 
know, they're telling, you know,

275
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,720
investors out there, look, if we
don't see anything good, we're 

276
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,120
not buying it, you know, and you
know, they're and also these 

277
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,960
miners are not comfortable yet 
with this gold price. 

278
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:22,480
You know, they're still 
sticking. 

279
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,760
You know, you know much, you 
know, they're cut off grades and

280
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,640
everything based on what I can 
see right now are based on, you 

281
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,720
know, you know, lower gold 
prices. 

282
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,280
So, you know, they use consensus
gold prices. 

283
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,880
You know, consensus gold prices 
by the analysts are usually, you

284
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,160
know, pretty far behind because 
they're run by banks that, you 

285
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,960
know, don't want to see, you 
know, much higher gold prices. 

286
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,720
How do you then forecast gold? 
When you sort of build out your 

287
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,280
models or think about it, you 
just sort of do various levels 

288
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,360
of sensitivity analysis, various
cases. 

289
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:04,880
Yeah, I mean our gold price 
assumption is much right now. 

290
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:11,400
It is lower just because if you 
historically go back and look 

291
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,640
at, you know, a 10 year trailing
average gold price as I believe 

292
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,320
is probably the best number to 
look at. 

293
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,000
And if you just take a simple 
average over the last 10 years, 

294
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,080
you, you get a, a number that is
significantly lower than the 

295
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,320
current gold price. 
But you know, if you're a mining

296
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,240
company and you maintain that 
you're, you're going to keep 

297
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,240
your margins throughout the, you
know, many cycles. 

298
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,920
And you know, I think we are in 
a, we're in an interesting 

299
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,960
period right now in that, you 
know, the, the gold price is 

300
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,360
really tied to total federal 
debt outstanding. 

301
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,680
And if you were to look at the 
gold price and sneaks and close 

302
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,560
the gold window, you'd see about
a 93% correlation to, you know, 

303
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,119
the gold price and total federal
debt outstanding. 

304
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:11,240
And so if we, you know, the US 
could actually get its act 

305
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,640
together and start to slow the 
rise of total federal debt 

306
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,400
outstanding, then, you know, the
gold price would slow down. 

307
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,280
But, you know, it's going to 
continue to this upward 

308
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,640
trajectory as long as total 
federal debts going up. 

309
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:30,840
I think that, you know, Trump, 
you know, he's a real estate 

310
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,840
developer and real estate 
developers love debt. 

311
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,160
And, you know, I really don't 
see him, you know, making a 

312
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,160
concerted effort to to lower the
debt. 

313
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,240
So how would? 
You think about positioning the 

314
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,240
fund if if you were to sort of 
see a slowdown in, in gold or in

315
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,040
the the sort of federal debt 
level, it's a. 

316
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,320
Gold fund mate, it's always a 
gold. 

317
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:57,680
But there's. 
There's various, I mean. 

318
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,200
Yeah, I mean you, you certainly 
can. 

319
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,880
Well, one of the things you do, 
I mean, you know, the first 

320
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,680
thing you do is you really start
chopping off your exploration 

321
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,560
and development companies. 
I mean, that's, that's where 

322
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,920
you, you know, the, the axe 
comes first then, and then you 

323
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,520
go on to your junior producers 
and what you do is you just move

324
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,560
up scale. 
And so you'll, you'll be, I 

325
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,520
mean, if you know, we have to be
85% invested in the, in the 

326
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,960
space being a gold fund. 
So you know, what you can do is 

327
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,240
you can buy bullion. 
It doesn't go down as as fast, 

328
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,400
as hard as you know, the miners 
go down. 

329
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,640
But you know, what you will do 
is, you know, look to have, you 

330
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,720
know, larger cap company. 
So you just move up cap is what 

331
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,520
happens. 
So you know, what is, you know, 

332
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,600
what you haven't seen in this 
cycle is you haven't seen, you 

333
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,800
know, the big rush in, you know,
exploration and development 

334
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,320
companies and you know, the 
smaller miners are are, you 

335
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,800
know, catching a bit of a bid 
now. 

336
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:15,280
But you know, the, you know, 
just the rush to, of excitement 

337
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,240
that happens in a bull market, 
you know, where you know, a 

338
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,000
drill hole comes out and it goes
up a couple 100%. 

339
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,080
You know, we're not seeing that 
as much, at least in the States.

340
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,640
We're not seeing it. 
I mean, you have a few here and 

341
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,760
there down in Australia that, 
you know, had some nice moves, 

342
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,720
but you know, it's still, you 
know, it's a, it's a, it's not 

343
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:42,480
an easy, easy market to really 
gauge the prospects of, you 

344
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,880
know, who's going to be the next
winner retail. 

345
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,480
Is is coming back here, but 
they're yeah that it's not it's 

346
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,800
not like fever level pitches 
yet. 

347
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,200
The IPOs are on their way there 
and they're a good a good a good

348
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,800
thermometer. 
The cap raises are just, it's 

349
00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,920
just cap cap raises. 
And that that just shows that 

350
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,680
there's like a lot of capital 
like available for the sector 

351
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:03,920
right now. 
And that's just just the 

352
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,960
observation I've got. 
Yeah, I mean you, I mean, 

353
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,240
certainly when, you know, 
Canaccord sits there and hits us

354
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,720
with, you know, you know, a deal
at night, you know, type of. 

355
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,400
Yeah, you have to kind of say 
all right, you know, yeah, maybe

356
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,080
things are, you know, you know, 
could get a bit frothy, you 

357
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,320
know, you know, look, you know, 
I, I certainly believe that, you

358
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:33,000
know, we are, you know, due for,
you know, some type of pull back

359
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,440
and then we go again. 
I mean, that's just, you know, 

360
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,560
what ends up happening is that, 
you know, you, you got a lot of 

361
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,680
folks that you know, aren't, 
aren't involved in the space at 

362
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:51,400
all that will get involved. 
But yeah, there, there is hot 

363
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,760
money that is in the space. 
And so, yeah, you'll have 30% 

364
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,320
moves and then OK, you pull back
a bit and you know, and then you

365
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,280
go again. 
So nothing, nothing wrong with 

366
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,760
that. 
One of the other reasons or sort

367
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,000
of factors that comes to mind is
the more approach, more 

368
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,640
disciplined approach to M&A this
this time around versus 10 years

369
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,400
ago and perhaps people thinking 
there's less odds of your junior

370
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,720
kind of getting bored out. 
This ties in as well with the 

371
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,040
capital discipline, the margin 
discipline that you spoke about 

372
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,600
earlier. 
How do you consider the approach

373
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,400
to M&A in this sort of bull 
market that we're in now? 

374
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,000
Right. 
I think that, you know, 

375
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,640
disciplined M&A is, is really 
the approach. 

376
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,040
I mean, that's what, you know, 
folks have been preaching, you 

377
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,880
know, for quite a while they've 
been in the space sitting in my 

378
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,040
seat. 
You know, that's what we've been

379
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,560
telling companies is, you know, 
just don't go buy something with

380
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,880
it that doesn't have economic 
rationale. 

381
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,680
And you know, to, you know, 
obviously, you know, that if you

382
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,800
have a company that has one 
asset and, you know, there's a 

383
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,840
short mine life, you've got to 
do something in order to keep 

384
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,560
the your seat. 
So, yeah, it really depends 

385
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:13,840
individually on the situation. 
But I would say overall, you 

386
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,440
know, the bigger miners are are 
really generating significant 

387
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,720
cash right now. 
And so, you know, I think that 

388
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:30,880
they're been more apt to, you 
know, do buybacks than buy 

389
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,480
companies. 
But you know, they will buy 

390
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,520
companies. 
I mean that they have to get 

391
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,480
comfortable with the gold price 
assumptions before they do that.

392
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:44,560
And so, yeah, I'd, I'd like to 
see them, you know, really use 

393
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,120
cash to buy assets versus 
shares. 

394
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:52,040
I think that's more accretive. 
You know, the other thing to do 

395
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,960
is, you know, this is, you know,
totally off topic, but is, you 

396
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,360
know, instead of, you know, 
selling every single Oz, paying 

397
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:07,920
taxes on it, why not, you know, 
really put that gold just in the

398
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,400
vault. 
Yeah, put it in the vault. 

399
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,440
It, you know, it certainly holds
up better than currency has for 

400
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,840
quite some time. 
Yeah. 

401
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,400
The. 
One, the one gold miner that's 

402
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,840
done that for a very long time, 
you know, trades at negative EV 

403
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,280
Tribune and Rand. 
I'm not sure if you're familiar,

404
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,720
familiar with with that company.
Well, it's two companies, but 

405
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,720
they've got, they've got like a 
collectively owned 50% interest 

406
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,720
in the East Kendana joint 
venture with, with Evolution. 

407
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,680
I think. 
I think the amount of gold 

408
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,680
they've got involved is 
enormous. 

409
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:46,240
Like it's eye watering. 
And I, I just think at some 

410
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,320
point, you know, they become 
ETFs. 

411
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,040
So, you know, there, there's 
nothing wrong with that 

412
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,360
approach. 
And I, I think, you know, the, 

413
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,400
the industry has been, you know,
because everybody does 

414
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:04,200
everything on, you know, PES and
they've been not willing to 

415
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,880
accept companies to, you know, 
put the gold on their balance 

416
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,920
sheet. 
Yeah, But yeah. 

417
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,600
That's a great point. 
Great point. 

418
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,280
Should we talk stocks with you, 
Greg? 

419
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,920
We'd love to kind of peel into 
some of the names within your 

420
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,120
within your portfolio and also 
outside of your portfolio if 

421
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:21,560
you've got some spicy views on 
them. 

422
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:23,960
Yeah, sure. 
Let's let's start. 

423
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,360
With, with Anglo Gold Ashanti, 
lots of making lots of news and 

424
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,360
talking big, big aspirations in 
relation to the yeah, the 

425
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,480
silicon project area in, in, in 
Nevada there. 

426
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,960
Are you pretty buoyant about 
that, that growth opportunity 

427
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,760
And also how do you how do you 
see their like their rethink of 

428
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,320
other, other assets as a result 
of that? 

429
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:49,400
Yeah, Look, I think that Anglo, 
you know, they, you know what 

430
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:56,640
what they've done is, you know, 
redomiciled into into the US you

431
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,560
know, the, you know, I think 
that was important. 

432
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,280
You know, I think, you know, the
fact that they, you know, 

433
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,040
basically are no longer a South 
African company though yet 

434
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,200
trade, you know, similar to 
goldfields on a lot of days. 

435
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:16,320
Yeah, I think that they're in a,
a real good spot to, you know, 

436
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,600
finally grow this company. 
I mean, and you know, there have

437
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,960
been, you know, you know, if 
you, if you look at the assets, 

438
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:31,200
you know, they have been shaving
off some so they could be in a 

439
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,720
position to, you know, build the
Silicon Valley, the silicon 

440
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,000
project. 
And, you know, and I think 

441
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,880
that's, you know, that's what 
they're really looking towards 

442
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,040
is, you know, trying to close 
the gap with their North 

443
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,200
American peers. 
And, you know, we've had that 

444
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,320
stock for a long time. 
And you know, there's been, you 

445
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,760
know, some, some pain involved. 
But I, I think that the new CEO,

446
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,680
he's, he's doing a, he's doing a
good job and, you know, getting 

447
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,000
the, getting the company on the 
right path. 

448
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,480
So yeah, we're, I do like, I 
like the, I like the trajectory 

449
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,880
that Anglo's on. 
Yeah. 

450
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:16,680
Do you think they'll like even 
even their acquisition of 

451
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,600
sentiment like a year ago, it 
seemed like that'll pay itself 

452
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,480
off pretty quickly at where gold
prices are right now, you'd 

453
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,080
imagine. 
And they think it was a pretty 

454
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,360
undemanding price that they paid
there. 

455
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:30,240
So yeah, that, that, that'll, I 
think that looks pretty like a 

456
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,240
pretty great deal right now. 
And, and do you think that 

457
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,800
they'll, they'll rationalize 
like their Australian portfolio 

458
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,240
as they kind of, you know, 
refocus their, their capital 

459
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,920
towards silicon, you know? 
I think that they want to 

460
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:51,240
maintain presence in Australia. 
So, you know, I think that the, 

461
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:58,480
the, the assets in, in 
Australia, you know, will, will 

462
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,000
be there and I don't think 
they're for sale at this time. 

463
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,200
I, I really don't, you know, so,
you know, I think, I still think

464
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,560
that they believe that, you 
know, there's, you know, there's

465
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,760
margin there, you know, some 
growth and you know, I, you 

466
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:20,520
know, I don't know what, you 
know, what the growth is outside

467
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,120
of their asset base. 
You know, that's I don't think, 

468
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,680
I don't know that they're 
thinking that. 

469
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,760
And I think that's, you know, 
when you, when you look at 

470
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,200
Australia, yeah, you're kind of 
looking at, OK, well, you know, 

471
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,440
you know, where are the growth 
opportunities? 

472
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,880
And you know, there are, you 
know, we have Oz Gold and a few 

473
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,640
other, you know, Saturn and a 
few of these development 

474
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,320
projects in the portfolio. 
And you know, they're, they're 

475
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,920
coming along. 
But those are not Anglo Gold 

476
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,520
type of assets, you know, 
they're, they're really not. 

477
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,960
So should we jump? 
Straight into to those two 

478
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,120
you've just mentioned there. 
Ozgo had some good news recently

479
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,440
on the on the sort of land 
front. 

480
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,680
How are you sort of taking in 
the the the change in events 

481
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,200
there and how long have you kind
of held the stock? 

482
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:16,760
We've held it for, you know, 
she's over a year or so since 

483
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,440
John got in there. 
They did the race. 

484
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,840
So yeah, that's been that's been
quite a while. 

485
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,560
I think it's over a year. 
I think he's been in there. 

486
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,600
So yeah. 
So you know, we we have it at 

487
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,520
much lower levels and I and I 
think that, you know, it is, it 

488
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,880
is a good project. 
It's it just needs some, it has 

489
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,000
needed time. 
It's needed John and the team to

490
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,920
go through that jump through the
hoops. 

491
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,200
You know, they clearly, you 
know, with doing the land deal 

492
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,600
got, you know, one of those 
hoops crossed off, you know, 

493
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,000
last week and you know, the 
stock has reacted nicely and you

494
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,680
know, probably has more to go 
now. 

495
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,160
You know, I I don't believe that
you know, John is in there to to

496
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,160
to build it. 
I really don't. 

497
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,600
So we'll we'll see that's. 
That's, that's an interesting 

498
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,080
perspective. 
We'll have to keep our eyes on 

499
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,440
who potential acquires could be 
of that one. 

500
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,040
And then like Saturn, we've got 
big, big scale, big tons. 

501
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,720
I mean scale in terms of amount 
of amount of dirt, dirt to move.

502
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,680
But the production profile, you 
know, around the, you know, a 

503
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,520
bit north of 100,000 oz per 
annum. 

504
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,720
But it's still got a bit of time
before ahead of it, like FY20, 7

505
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,360
or 28 at the earliest of this 
thing could be in production. 

506
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,040
Yeah. 
And. 

507
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,800
You know, so you know, there 
haven't been a whole lot of 

508
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,800
people each at, you know, 
projects down in in Australia. 

509
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,720
And so I think there's probably 
is a bit of lack of 

510
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,720
understanding of, you know, what
they're doing. 

511
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:57,000
But I, I, I think I do think 
that he's doing a good job of, 

512
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,960
you know, systematically, you 
know, approaching that. 

513
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,360
I mean, he's, he really is a, he
likes to do exploration. 

514
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,440
And so he's, he's going at it. 
Yeah. 

515
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,360
But yeah, it's, it's probably, 
yeah, it's, it's a couple years 

516
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,640
away. 
But you know, and, and it's not,

517
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,080
you know, at this point, I mean,
he's finding more oz but you 

518
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,040
know, I, I don't see it, you 
know, as a, you know, it's not a

519
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,880
200,000 oz a year mine it's 
100,000 oz a year operation 

520
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,600
looks like, and you know, so you
know, who are the buyers for 

521
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,320
that? 
That's that'd be in Australia 

522
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,480
if, if he doesn't build it, you 
know, one of the things that's 

523
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:46,120
happening is, you know, that, 
you know, these mining companies

524
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,920
that you know, are finding 
juniors that are finding Oz. 

525
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,400
You know, they are kind of 
growing, you know, to the point 

526
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,920
where you know, somebody, it 
doesn't make sense for a company

527
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,080
to buy them, you know, if the 
market caps go up too much. 

528
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,960
And so, so then they get forced 
to build them, which, you know, 

529
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,560
that's not the worst thing in 
the world either. 

530
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,560
Do you think the heat leak risk 
is overblown? 

531
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,320
The pardon me, the the. 
Heat leach nature of the the 

532
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:18,920
project. 
Do you think that risk here in 

533
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,160
Australia is overblown? 
I do, yeah, I do. 

534
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:29,880
I, I think in certainly his, 
with his experience at Newmont, 

535
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,480
he's yeah, he's not afraid of 
it. 

536
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:39,280
And, you know, I, I don't, I 
don't, I don't think that, you 

537
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,200
know, from a capital standpoint,
I, I think it's a good way to 

538
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,320
go. 
I mean, we'll, we'll see. 

539
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,720
I mean, they're starting to find
some, you know, some higher 

540
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,760
grades, which they would need if
they went to the mill route with

541
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,680
the CIO. 
But I, I don't think that, I 

542
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,040
think they're still looking at 
starting it off with a heap 

543
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,200
leach. 
So and that that's yeah, in 

544
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,680
Australia, like I said, there's 
really isn't a lot of experience

545
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,960
with heap leash. 
So I think that lack of 

546
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,920
understanding, you know, has 
created a bit of a, a void, you 

547
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,040
know, for, you know, for 
investors to, you know, embrace 

548
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,040
the story more. 
If I'm not mistaken, Greg, 

549
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,320
you've, you've, you've got an 
allocation to Ozone and they're 

550
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,920
currently in a trading halt 
right now on the back of news 

551
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,800
that the WAFF has received a bit
of a shakedown from the Burkina 

552
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,840
government. 
Ozone also a Burkina gold 

553
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,960
producer. 
How you feeling about about 

554
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,240
about this? 
I am. 

555
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:49,200
I'm thankful that actually ozone
did trade. 

556
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:56,760
It opened up late today and went
down about, I think about 15%. 

557
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:04,520
And, you know, Loft is going to 
trade, you know, now on Monday. 

558
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:13,920
And now they're going to be down
25% probably at this point, I'm 

559
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,920
going to guess because you're 
down about. 

560
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Yeah, see, with Orezone, they 
have a little different mining 

561
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,640
code that they were into the 
2025, I guess. 

562
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,600
And so the government can't come
back on them. 

563
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,600
And Burkina I, I was thinking 
that, you know, that, you know, 

564
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,040
and I was, I hadn't been in 
Washington for quite some time 

565
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,440
and I went back in, you know, 
about a month ago. 

566
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,320
And, you know, it's, you know, 
it's thinking, OK, I think that 

567
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,120
the the government's going to be
happy with their 15%. 

568
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:58,040
They just gone from 10 to 15. 
And so, you know, the fact that 

569
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,600
now they want to go, you know, 
to 50 is a little disconcerting.

570
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:09,040
But, you know, I, I think that, 
you know, WAFF is, you know, 

571
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,080
probably going to try to 
negotiate pretty hard if they 

572
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,920
can, you know, I don't know, I 
don't know what, you know, what 

573
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,159
they have to negotiate with, you
know, But, you know, the, one of

574
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:28,440
the things that is really 
disconcerting for investors is, 

575
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,719
you know, when you have these 
mines and some of these armpit 

576
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,400
countries is that, you know, 
they, they, they want to go in 

577
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,159
and, and take them. 
And that resource nationalism is

578
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,960
one of the big risks that, you 
know, is out there, whether it's

579
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,560
South America through, you know,
you do it, you don't take over 

580
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,840
the mine entirely. 
You do it through taxation and 

581
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,280
increase royalties. 
And, you know, that's why you 

582
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,800
get, you know, you know, a lot 
of folks that are, you know, OK,

583
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,200
I, I can be in Australia, I can 
be in North America. 

584
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,760
But you know, you start going to
these, you know, other countries

585
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,560
and it gets a bit dicey. 
So, you know, I think when I 

586
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,080
look at WAFF right now, you 
know, I'm not going to say what 

587
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,760
I'm going to do, but you know, 
it's not a, it's not a pleasant,

588
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,640
it's not a pleasant scenario. 
If we just fly over quickly on 

589
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,880
the jurisdictional aspect, a 
couple of the other countries in

590
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,000
the area that have significant 
minors, how are you thinking 

591
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,920
about the likes of Guinea and 
Ivory Coast and perhaps Senegal 

592
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,720
or other ones that you may have 
played in there previously? 

593
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,440
Yeah, Guinea is been a a good 
country, you know, I mean Cote 

594
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,120
d'Ivoire, yeah, these Senegal, 
they have been good countries so

595
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,160
far. 
I mean, so, you know, I think, 

596
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,160
you know, when you're sitting in
my seat, you're, you're going, 

597
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,400
OK, well, we can have a, a 
certain percentage in, you know,

598
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,600
each one of these countries that
as long as it doesn't blow up 

599
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,320
your portfolio. 
And so, so I have no problems, 

600
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,800
you know, taking a, you know, 
you know, being in, you know, 

601
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:18,600
code of law and Senegal and 
Guinea, as long as it's, you 

602
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,680
know, doesn't make up, you know,
25% of the portfolio type of 

603
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,240
thing, but you know, a couple 
percent here and there. 

604
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,440
It's OK. 
There's a couple of. 

605
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,280
Interesting projects in Mali as 
well. 

606
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,360
Are you courageous enough to go 
there these days? 

607
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:45,720
The only, the only real asset 
that we have there is with 

608
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:51,520
Barrick and Bristow is being 
pretty tough with those guys 

609
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,080
believing that they can't 
operate the mine, which, you 

610
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,520
know, I don't think that they 
can. 

611
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,440
But that there. 
I think what you know, the Mali 

612
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,880
government wants to do is they 
want to try to bring in, you 

613
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,320
know, one of the other miners to
to mine it. 

614
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,040
But you know, we'll see if 
allied. 

615
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:17,080
They can't ask resolute. 
Yeah, resolute. 

616
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,720
I think I, I think it's I if it 
if it's anybody, I, I would 

617
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,680
imagine it would be allied Peter
Marone. 

618
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,560
But yeah, that's, that's a 
that's a possibility. 

619
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:36,560
I I think that if you really 
were to, you know, take that 

620
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:42,960
away from them, that they would 
lose that in arbitration. 

621
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,680
But we'll we'll see. 
I mean, you know, I, I think of,

622
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,120
you know, the the three assets 
that we have there are Barrick 

623
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,280
Robex, it has a small and I like
Nevada. 

624
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,440
I mean that I like Nevada, but I
mean, I like gold, yeah. 

625
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,560
So I'm, I'm curious what you've 
made of the run of, of, of 

626
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,520
Lundin gold. 
It's, it's truly, truly 

627
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,320
phenomenal. 
You know, the like, I mean, 

628
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,600
Freda del Norte has had 
tremendous exploration success 

629
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,360
and just the, the ability to 
deliver that project in that 

630
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,480
part of the world. 
It's a $20 billion company like 

631
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,760
Canadian dollars now $20 billion
for a single asset in Ecuador. 

632
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:25,760
Surely they're going to buy 
something soon. 

633
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,200
Yeah. 
I mean, yeah, the thought 

634
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,760
process had been that the 
Lundin's want to sell that to 

635
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,080
Newmont. 
You know, Newmont's in there 

636
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,160
with a big piece that they got 
when the New Crest deal 

637
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:50,560
happened, you know, so, you 
know, obviously, you know, 

638
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,000
that's a big chunk of capital 
that's sitting there. 

639
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,040
You know, what does Newmont do? 
I mean, you know, there has been

640
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,600
speculation that Newmont, you 
know, would make a bid, but, you

641
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,600
know, at these prices, you know,
that's become less likely. 

642
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,320
You know, I mean, this is, this 
is what the market's doing is 

643
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,960
running in front of, you know, 
what would be, would be 

644
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,520
acquirers. 
And so I, I don't see that 

645
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,200
Newmont makes a bid for at least
I'd be surprised if Newmont made

646
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,600
a bid for Lundin. 
So, you know, where does that 

647
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,960
leave Lundin? 
So Lundin had made an offer to, 

648
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:33,920
to buy reunion in gold. 
And so, you know, and I think 

649
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,920
that, you know, I wouldn't be 
surprised if, you know, they 

650
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,440
step up and, you know, make an 
offer again. 

651
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,480
But, you know, they're going to 
have to get Newmont to sign off 

652
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,840
on that. 
I mean, that's one of the things

653
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:51,760
that, you know, Newmont, our new
Crest wouldn't allow the London 

654
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,440
guys do to do is to to buy 
anything. 

655
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,720
And so, you know, they put a 
kibosh on them because, yeah, 

656
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:00,560
originally they were thinking, 
you know, new Crest. 

657
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,720
They were going be before they 
they bought the asset up in 

658
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,080
Canada, you know, they pretium 
they were going to, you know, 

659
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,040
they were talking about making a
bid for Lundin. 

660
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,720
And so the pretium deal came up.
So that put Lundin on the back 

661
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,360
burner, but they still had ideas
that they were going to do the 

662
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,640
Lundin deal. 
And so, you know, what ended up 

663
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:30,520
happening was, you know, Newmont
stepped up and took out New 

664
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,520
Crest and, you know, now new 
Newmont's in that same seat of 

665
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,960
having 35% and saying, OK, well,
you know, we're just going to 

666
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,120
let let this play out a little 
while longer, but don't buy 

667
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,960
anything. 
You know, so these guys have 

668
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,080
blocks on the, you know, 
blocking votes on the board. 

669
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,160
I guess so and. 
Speaking of the takeover 

670
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,520
dynamics, I, I am gold is, is 
another one where you thought it

671
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,360
was like pretty, pretty 
undervalued for, for a while, 

672
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,400
especially given what the value 
of Kotak, you know, should 

673
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,200
should be. 
And, and in the last couple of 

674
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,480
months it's, it's really, it's 
really had a, a run. 

675
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,640
Do you think that's on the back 
of speculative corporate action 

676
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,640
as well? 
I think yeah, so far Goat Day is

677
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,440
in the still in the build up 
phase, Yeah. 

678
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,000
So yeah, there's no doubt in my 
mind that I am gold wants to be 

679
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,680
sold. 
So, you know, how that gets 

680
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,320
worked out is, you know, whether
you you hive off what they have 

681
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,000
in Burkina and other assets and,
you know, create separate 

682
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,120
entities. 
But, you know, I think there'll 

683
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,840
be some type of transaction that
takes place there. 

684
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:45,920
You know, that would not 
surprise me. 

685
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:52,000
But it's it's, it's coming, you 
know, as soon as Cote is just 

686
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,520
has to, you know, show itself a 
little bit more. 

687
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,800
Because these. 
Guys, these guys are nervous 

688
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,240
about, you know CE OS, you know 
the last cycle especially you 

689
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,040
know every time that they do it 
did a a takeover, you know it 

690
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:09,200
didn't work out. 
Then they, you know get hived 

691
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,040
off quite quickly. 
There's a. 

692
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,760
Few of those like you know, 
pretty substantial assets that 

693
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,160
are still, you know, proving 
their straps from a ramp up 

694
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,920
perspective. 
Like in addition to Kotai, 

695
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,680
you've got, you've got the likes
of Artemis Blackwater and 

696
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,960
you've, you've got Equinoxes 
Greenstone. 

697
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,000
Do you like, do you think that 
once you know like if, if as 

698
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,560
they do or if if they do kind of
prove themselves that they 

699
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,800
become kind of like logical 
acquisitions at the right price 

700
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,600
for for the majors? 
Yeah, I think, I mean, there's 

701
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,320
no doubt in my mind that Artemis
is for sale at some point. 

702
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,920
I think it probably needs to, 
you know, work on, you know, 

703
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,640
getting its debt level down just
so it just needs to produce for 

704
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,120
a while to do that. 
And, you know, the, the, I think

705
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,480
the big guys, you know, you 
know, they look at, you know, 

706
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,200
mines that can do a half a 
million oz and there aren't that

707
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,040
many of them. 
So, yeah, it's an attractive 

708
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,560
asset. 
It's not necessarily that cheap 

709
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:18,000
when you take the debt into 
consideration, but you know, I, 

710
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,480
I do believe that, you know, one
of the big guys will make an 

711
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,760
effort there at some point. 
Just to reflect back on the, the

712
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,160
share price movements of some of
these bigger companies like to 

713
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,920
talk about London once more. 
They've more than 10X in, in the

714
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,240
last few years. 
It's, it's just incredible. 

715
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,840
And I can't help but notice that
their market cap is almost 

716
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,560
double that of some of the 
companies that have been sort of

717
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,520
grouped as as major minors. 
Like how do you think about the 

718
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,440
the rationale for continuing to 
to hold a company like that with

719
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,040
the the single asset risk in 
Ecuador? 

720
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,560
That's a, that's a good 
question. 

721
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:04,920
Now, you know, I, I've always 
been of the belief that you run 

722
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:10,040
with your winners and you know 
that the companies will, you 

723
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:15,120
know, continue to create value 
over time. 

724
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:20,080
And, you know, right now I'm, 
you know, I'm still betting on 

725
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,520
the loan Deans, you know, and 
fortunately, you know, what 

726
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,880
they're doing is, you know, 
they're being, you know, very 

727
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,560
aggressive in terms of, OK, 
well, we're going to pay back 

728
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,440
cash to the shareholders. 
And, you know, obviously 

729
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,480
Newmont's a big shareholder, 
but, you know, so are the 

730
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,560
Lundeens. 
You know, that's what that's one

731
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,240
of the reasons why I thought 
that, you know, you know, the 

732
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:49,000
Lundeens wanted to cash out and,
you know, put the, you know, 

733
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,520
that cash down into the copper 
assets that they have. 

734
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:59,120
But, you know, I, I still, I'm 
still thinking that. 

735
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,600
But at this point, you know, 
they're, they're willing to let 

736
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,920
the, you know, the free cash 
flow, you know, come back to 

737
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,040
shareholders, which, you know, I
know I'm, I'm a strong believer 

738
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,240
in, you know, investors 
participating in cash flow. 

739
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,280
And, you know, that's just one 
of the problems that, you know, 

740
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,960
we've seen with the gold mining 
industry is that, you know, 

741
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,800
investors haven't participated 
in the cash flows the way they 

742
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,640
should. 
And, you know, I have a very 

743
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,720
simple formula in that, you 
know, that this business needs 

744
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:33,760
to be basically a third, a 
third, a third. 

745
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,600
And, you know, the third goes 
back into paying off the mine 

746
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,560
and the third goes to the 
shareholders and the third goes 

747
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,680
to the next mine. 
And if you do that, you know, 

748
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:51,200
everybody participates. 
So, yeah, so that's, you know, 

749
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:55,200
the fact that the Lundeens are 
are, are paying, paying us back.

750
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,840
You know, I'm certainly in favor
of that. 

751
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,600
So Barracks. 
Sell their 50% stake to their JV

752
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,160
partner, Nova Gold, who've been 
in that asset for quite some 

753
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,760
time and Nova Gold have a run up
that they haven't quite had in a

754
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,520
number of years, but there's 
still an enormous CapEx bill 

755
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,040
there. 
How do you think about the Dolan

756
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,680
project? 
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of 

757
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:24,040
gold there and certainly Tom 
Kaplan and that group has been 

758
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:29,080
playing up the OK, well, the 
gold in the ground is, is fine 

759
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:33,120
is, you know, it's, it's a asset
and you know, we don't have to 

760
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,720
mine it. 
You know, I think now they're at

761
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,400
the point where, you know, they 
get tired of all those folks out

762
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,960
and said, OK, well, we're going 
to have to build this 

763
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,720
eventually. 
And Barrick looked at and said, 

764
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:48,440
OK, well, we're not going to get
the return. 

765
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,880
We'll, we'll sell to these guys,
let them run with it. 

766
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,440
And we don't want to spend the 
management time to do do that. 

767
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:01,040
So it's, you know, I, I think 
it's going to take a lot of 

768
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:07,520
capital, clearly. 
And, you know, I, I'm, I'm not 

769
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,880
willing to go there at this 
point. 

770
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,120
So, you know, hats off to him 
really. 

771
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:19,280
So, but yeah, it's a, it's not 
an easy, it's not an easy 

772
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:20,920
project. 
You know, you got to get the 

773
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,080
power up there. 
You know, you're going to do it 

774
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,360
with natural gas or however 
you're going to do it. 

775
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,080
I don't know. 
But yeah, we'll see. 

776
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:29,480
But there's a lot of gold up 
there. 

777
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,160
There's certainly a lot of gold 
there. 

778
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,680
One of one of the larger 
positions in the portfolio Greg 

779
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,640
is Catalyst Metals who who had a
tremendous run last year, 

780
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,920
retreated a bit, but yeah, but 
prove their straps when they 

781
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,920
when they got their their hands 
on Platonic. 

782
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,360
I think they've got a bit more 
CapEx ahead of them now and the,

783
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,720
the, the easy runs might be be 
over. 

784
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,520
But do you, do you still have a 
pretty, pretty strong outlook 

785
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,440
for, for their ability to 
generate cash? 

786
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:04,040
You know, so James has got some 
work to do there. 

787
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,960
He's got a, he's basically at 
this point now he's got to prove

788
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,640
up the market cap that the 
market's given them. 

789
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,280
And so, yeah, he's talked about 
getting to 200,000 oz. 

790
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,840
He's got the Trident project, 
He's got platonic yeast. 

791
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,720
Yeah, they, you know, they're, 
they're getting some good 

792
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:27,560
results on the platonic, I mean 
on that platonic belt and, you 

793
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,480
know, with through Trident. 
So, but you know, the, the 

794
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,560
question is, is you know, is he 
going to be like his father and 

795
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:40,120
go out and buy things? 
So, you know, my guess is that 

796
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,160
yes, he will at some point go 
here. 

797
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,600
Should I Daddy, I saw what you 
did, but I'm going to do it with

798
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,120
better. 
And, you know, so far, I 

799
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,160
actually think that I actually 
think he might be a bit more 

800
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,040
disciplined than his father was.
So maybe maybe he learned a bit 

801
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,040
at the the breakfast or the 
dinner table. 

802
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,760
But you know, one of the things 
that's interesting about 

803
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,840
catalyst, I mean, they waited a 
long time. 

804
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,040
He could have done that raise, 
you know, for, you know, I think

805
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,320
brokers were beaten on him for a
long time and he didn't do it 

806
00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:16,600
and didn't do it, and he finally
did it. 

807
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,600
So, you know, the question is, 
is OK, what is he doing with 

808
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,480
that money? 
And is he buying something? 

809
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,920
Or is it just there to, you 
know, keep a larger, you know, 

810
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:35,040
buffer? 
So, yeah, I, I, I, I don't know 

811
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:38,240
what the answer to that is yet, 
but you know, I do have 

812
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,800
confidence in his ability. 
And, you know, a lot of times 

813
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:47,400
you can sit there and you can 
sell assets, you know, when 

814
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,720
they've run and then, you know, 
look to buy it back some other 

815
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:56,320
time. 
You know, my, you know, I have 

816
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,440
historically been a pretty low 
turnover fund and have been, you

817
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,320
know, if guys have been 
performing, I let them perform 

818
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,960
and continue to perform and I'll
ride out the, the ups and downs,

819
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,040
you know, that's, you know, the 
way we've operated. 

820
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,080
And so I think that, you know, 
we'll, you know, at this point, 

821
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,840
I'm willing to let James run 
with it until he shows 

822
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,120
otherwise. 
And you know, once management 

823
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,320
starts doing things other than 
what they say, you know, then 

824
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,920
it's time to leave. 
I'm really curious just to hear 

825
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,120
how you think about hedging in 
this environment? 

826
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:38,840
That's a good question. 
So, you know, hedging is, you 

827
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:44,600
know, basically been a hedge for
to not make money. 

828
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,160
You know, for a lot of a lot of 
companies, they think they're 

829
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:54,360
hedging, you know, the top top 
line, they can't hedge any costs

830
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,000
really. 
They try to, you know, you can 

831
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,160
look at, you know, energy, you 
know, maybe they can hedge a 

832
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,760
little bit of that. 
But you know, for the most part,

833
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,600
you can't hedge your costs. 
And then the costs keep going 

834
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,280
up. 
And then they're, you know, the,

835
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,840
you're stuck in a situation 
where you know, you've, you 

836
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,120
know, sold forward and, you 
know, then the, your, your cost 

837
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,680
profile goes up. 
And you know, nobody wants to be

838
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:23,000
in a company where you know, the
gold price is going up and you 

839
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,160
know, they're locked in a $2000 
gold. 

840
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:30,200
I mean, if you look at how many 
companies have, you know, 

841
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,400
really, and mostly the 
Australians have been the worst,

842
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:40,520
have really, you know, died 
because you know, their, you 

843
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,200
know, their hedge book portfolio
is gone against them. 

844
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:52,280
I mean, clearly, you know, 
obviously Bellevue, you know, 

845
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,280
Regis, you know, they had a 
tough book. 

846
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,280
I mean, a lot of these companies
that have had big books, you 

847
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,480
know, go against them, you know,
they've, you know, it's, it's 

848
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,160
been very detrimental. 
So I, I'm not big, I'm not big 

849
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,440
on hedging. 
And you know, one of the things 

850
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:15,120
that you look at now and say, 
OK, $5000 plus gold, you know, 

851
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:18,880
if you know, that's not a bad 
gold price in, in Aussie terms 

852
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,000
at all. 
And so you have to have a view 

853
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:24,920
on what the Aussie currency is 
going to do. 

854
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,920
And so if you think that the 
Aussie currency is going to get 

855
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,600
much stronger, you know, the 
gold price isn't going to do 

856
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,280
anything. 
And so, you know, that's one, 

857
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,880
you know, one view that you're 
going to have to take as 

858
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,760
management. 
And I, I would, I think that, 

859
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:46,520
you know, companies have gotten 
better at looking at hedging 

860
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,440
more from, OK, well, we're going
to do options and you know, 

861
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:56,160
we'll, we will take the, yeah, 
take a little bit of money here 

862
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,000
and hedge ourselves on the 
downside. 

863
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,920
And or, you know, they'll do 
some 0 callers, you know. 

864
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,880
But you know, for the most part,
if you look at, you know, the 

865
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:11,120
successful guys that have been 
in the hedging game, you know, 

866
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,720
they've, they've basically have 
bought puts and you know, just 

867
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,120
written them off so I could, I 
could have. 

868
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,640
Guessed your views there you 
want you want the the miners to 

869
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,080
hold gold on their balance 
sheet, not deliver it to to to a

870
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,680
counter party. 
Yeah, right. 

871
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:31,320
I mean, I mean, one, one of the 
things that is, you know, when 

872
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,800
you look at, you know, you know,
the gold price, you know, it's 

873
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,680
that volatility that you know, 
is in the share price, you know,

874
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:42,840
so you know, moving with the 
gold price. 

875
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,360
Yeah, Yeah. 
What's the? 

876
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,200
What's the most undervalued gold
company gold producer right now 

877
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,160
and then gold. 
Gold developer right now, Yeah, 

878
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,360
I. 
I look at a lot of these 

879
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:59,240
companies and say, OK, well, you
know, where, where are we going?

880
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:06,320
You know, and you know, I'd like
to think that, you know, yeah, I

881
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,720
have got this small one that 
I've had for a while, Jaguar 

882
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:15,840
Mining in the portfolio that had
a tailings issue. 

883
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:21,880
And so, you know, once they get 
that squared away and then you 

884
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,560
are able to expand their 
operation, you know, that looks 

885
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,120
cheap to me. 
You know that the market's going

886
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,880
to like it. 
The developers really in a 

887
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,880
position to where they can 
really make hay in this 

888
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,640
environment if they do it 
correctly and, and that that's 

889
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,960
not blowing up their 
shareholders along the way, you 

890
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,240
know, entirely just saying, OK, 
well, we need we need cash. 

891
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:48,320
So, you know, we're going to 
take cash every time we can. 

892
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,760
We're offered because, you know,
in a bull market, they'll be 

893
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,640
offered cash, you know, you 
know, every other day. 

894
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,160
So you, you have to make sure 
that, you know, you have 

895
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,120
managements that are not, you 
know, going to dilute you out. 

896
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,520
So, you know, that's one of the 
problems that you have with 

897
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:09,280
developers is you know that they
will blow you out of the water, 

898
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,360
you know, so you have to know 
that the management teams are 

899
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:17,600
there understanding the, you 
know, the fact that, you know, 

900
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,280
they've got to keep a, a close 
eye on, you know, oz per share. 

901
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,240
On, on that sort of theme, Greg,
I've got a a bunch of rapid fire

902
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:31,360
questions that on a fire towards
you with the first one being who

903
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,280
do you think is the best 
management team in the industry 

904
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,840
right now? 
Best management team has been a 

905
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,720
Nico. 
They've been the best thought 

906
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:42,520
that might. 
Be the answer Do you have a 

907
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,640
favorite gold mine that you've 
come across in your in your 

908
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,320
career? 
Favorite gold mine? 

909
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,800
Oh yeah. 
I mean, my, my favorite gold 

910
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,400
mines through the years have 
have been the Nevada gold mines 

911
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,920
that Barrick and Newmont had. 
Those have been the, you know, 

912
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,160
the best, you know, from I go 
back to early 1980s. 

913
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,080
So those have been some pretty 
spectacular minds, yeah. 

914
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,440
Long history there. 
How about the best jurisdiction 

915
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:13,600
to operate in the world right 
now? 

916
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,840
Yeah, I, I'm. 
I'm going to still say that 

917
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:22,200
you've got to be in North 
America and you know, Canada and

918
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,680
Canada and Australia probably 
probably Australia is you know, 

919
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,760
is getting more unfortunately 
more and more like Canada and 

920
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,000
the US that is taking longer to 
permit. 

921
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:42,720
But you know, from its sanctity 
of the tenements that's, you 

922
00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:45,200
know, those are the, the 
countries that you want to be 

923
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,480
in. 
And most likely deal in the next

924
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,120
12 months. 
Yeah, I still. 

925
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:58,240
Think Lundin disappears somehow,
but they're I bet. 

926
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:03,360
I think they buy an asset. 
It's probably my guess that 

927
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,600
lending buys an asset first, 
would you say? 

928
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,560
In the Americas. 
Yes, yeah. 

929
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,840
In the Americas, yeah. 
Interesting one. 

930
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,080
How about the best site visit 
you've been on? 

931
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,080
Yeah. 
I'd say barracks, barracks 

932
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,000
Nevada gold mines to find the 
best site business I've been on 

933
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,160
from a you know, large cap 
mining company. 

934
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,520
I mean, I've been on a plenty of
of you know, go out and you 

935
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,520
know, kick the dirt on, you 
know, but you know, in terms of 

936
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:42,640
seeing an operation, yeah, 
that's probably you know, yeah, 

937
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,400
you can see the most there last 
one from. 

938
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:51,360
Me is agnico more likely to buy 
Oregon royalties or I am gold to

939
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,840
get their hands on Cote in some 
way shape or form in the. 

940
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:08,080
I think that they would be more 
apt to buy Kote is probably my 

941
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:09,560
guess. 
You know, one of the, one of the

942
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,800
things that you know, they're 
certainly looking at is, you 

943
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:19,360
know, maintaining, you know, 
their jurisdiction profile and I

944
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,400
and I think that's, you know, 
one of the things that Kote 

945
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,720
offers them. 
And so you're going to, you're 

946
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:30,680
going to have to split up the 
split off the Burkina assets. 

947
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,520
So, yeah, so I mean, they have 
no problem. 

948
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:36,760
They have a history of doing 
that. 

949
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,480
So I wouldn't be surprised if 
they make a joint bid with 

950
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,440
somebody or somehow they figure 
it out or just, you know, create

951
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,480
a separate company. 
Fantastic. 

952
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,560
Greg, it's been an absolute 
pleasure to to speak and get 

953
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,040
your insights on, on, on the, 
you know, the gold equities and 

954
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,520
the gold market. 
And it was also enjoyable for us

955
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,680
to talk about, you know, some of
these North American gold miners

956
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,600
that we don't spend heaps of 
time talking about. 

957
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,720
No, you spend all the time 
talking about the Aussies all 

958
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:04,640
the time, but I understand that 
you've, you know, most of the 

959
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,320
time you guys, mostly the 
Aussies down there listening so.

960
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,840
Yeah, we, it's just local market
bias. 

961
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,000
I think, you know, time zones do
matter obviously. 

962
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,600
And it's, it's kind of hard to 
force yourself to, to pay 

963
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:17,800
attention to the other time 
zone. 

964
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,440
But but we're, we're, you know, 
speaking to people like you. 

965
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,000
We're, we're getting there. 
One step more educated now. 

966
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,560
Yeah, I know. 
Well, I think you know, and I, I

967
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,600
do think that, you know, you do 
see the Aussies are, you know, 

968
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,240
they're, they don't do a very 
good job when they come to North

969
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,120
America, then they probably 
should stay away. 

970
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:45,760
But, but you know, clearly down 
in Australia and you know, 

971
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,320
there's a couple of guys down 
playing around down in South 

972
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:54,320
America, you know, you know, 
certainly could get a bit. 

973
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,360
And I think that there's there 
is a market in Canada, there's a

974
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,880
market in Australia for resource
companies that's not there in 

975
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,200
the US. 
And so you know, that's, you 

976
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,240
know, that's a real positive 
for, you know, the industry 

977
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,560
overall. 
So totally there's. 

978
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,440
Still that appetite here. 
Yeah. 

979
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,560
No, no, there is. 
So I mean, Canaccord is, you 

980
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,000
know, running the stuff up. 
It's very true. 

981
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:25,520
Thanks a bunch for joining us, 
Greg. 

982
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,160
Appreciate it. 
Yeah, my. 

983
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:28,400
Pleasure. 
Thanks, guys. 

984
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,480
And there we go. 
Mate, a massive thank you to our

985
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,320
fantastic partners for making it
all happen. 

986
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,600
Sandy Ground Support, Focus, the
platform by market tech, Axis 

987
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,440
Mineral Services and last but 
not least, get your tickets to 

988
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,200
Africa Down Under next week. 
Go to Ruth. 

989
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,080
Now remember. 
I'm an idiot. 

990
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,800
JD is an idiot. 
If you thought any of this was 

991
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,320
anything other than 
entertainment, you're an idiot 

992
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:52,880
and you need to read out a 
disclaimer.