1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,480 Righto money miners, Here's a weekend special for you with one 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,520 of the old school mining magnates which just goes 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,920 perfectly with the new school open pit mining magnate. 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:18,000 MMS are ready for a open pit contract yesterday. 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:23,480 Gay people get in touch. Don't miss out on this early 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,800 bird offer, you'd say. They told me mate, that, you 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,040 know, they just have spare fleet there. 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:30,880 They they don't want downtime. They're aligned. 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,960 Mate, they've got the fleet driving around the country at 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,440 the moment just cause to statistically give themselves 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,880 the best chance of getting it to your side as quick as possible. 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,320 So mate, give them a buzz. JD. 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,520 Mate, you've mate, you locked down a big dog while you're over 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:45,880 east. We did mate. 15 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,720 So Owen Hegarty is who this discussion is with and it's it's 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,600 a bit different. So I want to introduce it sort 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,840 of appropriately 'cause we spend a lot of time discussing the, 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,800 the sort of here and now, the markets where they're going in 19 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,560 the future. But given our sort of relative 20 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,960 youth, you could say I think there's a lot for us to learn. 21 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,720 So thought it'd be a good opportunity to to speak with 22 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,640 someone with a boatload of experience. 23 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,600 And I think Owen sort of fits the bill perfectly. 24 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,360 He, he worked at Rio for 25 odd years, ended up heading the Asia 25 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,280 part of their business as well as the Aussie copper gold part 26 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,960 of the business. That is when the company was 27 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:24,480 called CRA shortly before the the merger to become Rio Tinto. 28 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,200 He then went to start Oxiana in 1995, which ultimately merged 29 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,560 with Zinefx, which we chat about, which is what became Oz 30 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,160 Minerals in sort of 2008 and onwards. 31 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,400 He then left, you know, in the in the interim, he joined the 32 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,560 board at Fortescue, ultimately became the vice chairman at 33 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,520 Fortescue. So he has done plenty of roles 34 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,640 and then if that wasn't sort of enough in the early 20 tens, he 35 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,480 started AMR Capital. Now people will know these guys 36 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,720 as owners of Ravenswood, Kestrel, Bombay, amongst others, 37 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,040 29 Meadows, another name. They have done a number of 38 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,360 deals, have raised 3 funds since they started in the early 20 39 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,040 tens. So plenty of experience for us 40 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,560 to sort of chip out. So we spent a lot of the 41 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,240 conversation going through what he sort of learnt along that 42 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,680 journey, some of the the ups and downs along the way and sort of 43 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,280 lessons that we can kind of pull out in in our journey going 44 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,520 forward. Interesting when you say the the 45 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,480 links between what AM Rs got now and what Oxiana had like with 46 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,200 Golden Grove and things like that. 47 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,160 So Nah, very interested. It's going to be a Ripper JD. 48 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,440 Good work sunshine. Let's RIP it, aye? 49 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,000 Let's go. Owen Hegarty, thanks for making 50 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,400 the time and coming on money of mine. 51 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,720 Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity, John. 52 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,040 It's lovely to be here. The the first question I've got 53 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,480 to ask you is one that I sort of came about in in my research, 54 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,960 listening to a podcast you've done a couple years ago, you 55 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,880 called Melbourne the mining capital of the world. 56 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,240 And I think a few people in Perth might pick a fight with 57 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,400 this comment. Do you still sort of feel the 58 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,000 way you know, feel that way 30-40 years after starting your 59 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,480 career here? Definitely still, I mean, not so 60 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,680 much the capital of the world, but the capital of the universe. 61 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,920 Jonas is, is Melbourne. Bearing in mind that we started 62 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:12,880 it all here about 170 years ago. I was a very young fellow at the 63 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,560 time, of course, but this was the, this was the gold rushes, 64 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,320 remember back in the 1850s or thereabouts. 65 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,240 So that's how a lot of the, the surplus that was grown from 66 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,640 mining here in Victoria, a lot of the institutions started at 67 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:30,720 that time and then it developed out into other areas. 68 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,200 But that's why you still find that BHP is headquartered here, 69 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,640 for example, because that's where it all began in a way. 70 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,640 And as I say, a lot of the a lot of the surplus and the Melbourne 71 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,640 Mining Club, Jonas is a very big institution here. 72 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,080 So we get plenty of people coming to that. 73 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:53,040 But of course, yes, it has moved more to Perth. 74 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,240 Some of my best friends actually come from Perth Jonas, so 75 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,320 definitely much more a centre these days. 76 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,600 Well. We can, we can take that 77 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,640 argument offline and keep going with that one, but we'll keep 78 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,160 going. I want to dig into, you know, a 79 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,000 lot of your experience, you've spent a lot of time in the, in 80 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,800 the mining industry and then get into some of the deals you've 81 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,200 done here at AMR and everything's sort of in between 82 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,079 and looking forward. But I want to go go back, go 83 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:25,960 back a few years to what was CRA, what became Rio Tinto, 84 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,160 where you started your career some time ago. 85 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,720 And I want to hear about the sort of entrepreneurial culture, 86 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,720 how you sort of see it at that time. 87 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,920 A lot of people make the criticism of these majors that 88 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,760 it kind of stifles the entrepreneurial kind of spirit. 89 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,080 But you know, you've clearly shown through your career that 90 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,880 you've you've got that and it wasn't stifled at CRA. 91 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,840 What was it like working at that organisation at that time? 92 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:50,480 And how does it sort of differ from how you see company 93 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,280 nowadays? Well, very interesting and but a 94 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:58,200 very broad question of course. So yes, going all the way back 95 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,680 to the Rio Tinto days. No worries. 96 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,720 I mean, I, I spent 2425 years with Rio Tinto, pretty much all 97 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,360 their companies, all their countries and all their 98 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,080 commodities. So, so very lucky actually to 99 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,160 have that sort of span of career with the Rio Tinto. 100 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,880 Wonderful company, wonderful people and A and A and a 101 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,360 wonderful culture. One of the things that I thought 102 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:27,760 about Rio was, you know, with, with, with hindsight and, and 103 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,840 with some present sight whilst I was working there was they 104 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:37,400 really had a, a very strong growth and entrepreneurial bent. 105 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,320 So it wasn't just a businesses as usual. 106 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,880 It was very much a growth orientation and and 107 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,480 entrepreneurial people there all the way up, up and down the the 108 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,680 chain going all the way back in fact to Saval Duncan. 109 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,560 Would you believe now that goes back a long, long time as the 110 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,840 chairman of Rio Tinto and I was lucky enough to, to be in London 111 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:06,320 and working for Rio when, when Val was in charge effectively as 112 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,240 the, as the executive chairman of the company. 113 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,920 So he had that entrepreneurial bent it, it actually came 114 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:19,840 through in the into the Rio Tinto CRA, people here in, at 115 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:24,600 Rio Tinto CRA in Melbourne, the really, really wonderful people 116 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,240 like Sir Roderick Carnegie, John Ralph, many of the leaders of 117 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,520 Rio Tinto had that growth entrepreneurial orientation. 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,440 So what, what are some of the, the assets you, you worked at 119 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,640 like you mentioned you spent sort of 24 years there. 120 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,680 You ultimately became the managing director of Rio Asia as 121 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,360 well as the the copper and gold assets as I sort of understand 122 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,480 in, in Australia. Can you can you run through some 123 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,760 of the projects and mines you sort of operated at through that 124 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,600 period? Yes, well, I think. 125 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,680 Probably the the main break if you like, if you want to call 126 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,760 that in inside Rio Tinto, I mean as I had a lot, a lot of 127 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,520 different areas and so on, just terrific, terrific people, 128 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,080 terrific background. So very lucky really in a way. 129 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,880 But then the last several years of my so called career there, if 130 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,640 you like was with in the Asian area. 131 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,760 So we were developing new markets, we were developing new 132 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,080 businesses in the Asian region and that and that came about. 133 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:31,440 It was is very much a a push and a drive by Sir Rod and others on 134 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,080 the board at that time. And John Ralph in was in the 135 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,240 senior management ranked to build our businesses in Asia 136 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,520 because that's where the growth was clearly going to come from 137 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,760 or was clear to some at that time that maybe not clear to to 138 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,600 others type of thing. And I think that we got on the 139 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,040 front foot, we got on the front foot with Kamalka. 140 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,480 We got on the front foot with our our lid and zinc businesses. 141 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,400 We got on the front foot with our copper business. 142 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:01,800 So, so we were looking to not only grow our markets there, but 143 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,280 to grow our business in that part of the world, which would 144 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:09,520 ultimately buy products from, from Australia and from other 145 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,480 sources of, of metals and, and materials from other Rio Tinto 146 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,440 Group places, if you like. So, so that's, and, and I was 147 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,000 part of that campaign, if you like. 148 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,160 That took on on for a long time there. 149 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,760 And, and in, in a way, it was very successful, not very much, 150 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,039 you know, attributable to me, but some of The Pioneers there 151 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:36,840 did a, did an amazing job in terms of actually getting 152 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,039 involved in businesses, getting involved in that market 153 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:44,320 development activity. And you could literally see the 154 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,280 countries growing there. Jonas, we're talking about, 155 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,920 we're talking about Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, Indonesia, 156 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:58,280 Taiwan, Korea, Japan was continuing to develop and, and 157 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,240 China, of course, just starting to open up. 158 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:06,240 So really very exciting times and probably the most, you know, 159 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,400 luckiest break if you like that I had a lot of time in that part 160 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,800 of the world and a lot of time with with those businesses. 161 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,920 So that was a that to me was an important step to actually be 162 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,200 part of that. So that that Asia component is a 163 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,120 sort of big feature in your career. 164 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,640 Is that, is that something you sought out, you wanted to 165 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,600 experience, you know that part of the world the the culture 166 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,200 there operating, doing business in in these parts of the world 167 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,440 or is it more Rio wanted to expand there and they sort of 168 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,960 said, hey, I want to either the man for the job, do you want to 169 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,440 go over there? How did that sort of all come 170 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,720 about? Well, it was a drive from Rio 171 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,880 Tinto. And then of course it became a 172 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,960 personal drive in a way that you could actually see the long 173 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,520 strong demand for all of the metals and commodities that we 174 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,320 were involved in and other metals and commodities that we 175 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,280 weren't involved. Rio. 176 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,600 It had a bit of a pause there in terms of some of the things that 177 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,040 it was actually doing and copper and, and base metals. 178 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,200 And, and around about the same time, I saw the opportunity to 179 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,640 get involved in our own business outside of Rio Tinto, getting 180 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,320 involved in a business growing on the, on the strength of the 181 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,760 growth in Asia in, in all of those markets, sourcing 182 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,840 materials from Australia and other parts of the world and 183 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,560 being involved in mining, not only in, in the existing and 184 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:35,040 more established mining centres, but in those Asian mining 185 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,720 centres. And that's what that's when 186 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,440 that's effectively how we started Oxiana, got it, got 187 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,680 involved in, you know, Asia Pacific base and precious metals 188 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,360 with, with a, with Australia and Asia. 189 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,600 So let's let's tap into that. Then you leave in the the early 190 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,960 90s CRA which later merges by that time you're managing 191 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,000 director of Oxiana sort of 1995 period as I kind of understand 192 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,160 it. What is that first five years 193 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,320 like there? So the the second mine comes 194 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,840 online in 2000, but you know, you're doing something quite 195 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,440 entrepreneurial. Why did you decide to leave and, 196 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,480 you know, talk us through that those sort of early days? 197 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,600 OK. Well, that's well I, I, I'd 198 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,000 spent 2425 years with Rio Tinto, they were, they were having a 199 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,800 bit of a pause if you like in terms of the basement and and 200 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,640 precious metals areas. So I saw the opportunity because 201 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,160 the growth was continuing in Asia and the growth for for 202 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,760 copper are the base and precious metals of the aluminium, whether 203 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,680 it was zinc, whether it was lead, whether other a nickel, 204 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,480 whether all of those things continuing. 205 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,680 So I saw the opportunity to to jump out and put together 206 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:51,880 capital, put together people, people that I actually work with 207 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:57,960 inside Rio Tinto and begin our own journey in the Mighty Ox. 208 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,240 And you know the we grew up, we grew a company there from a few 209 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,120 $1,000,000 to a few billion dollars. 210 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,520 As I say to people, the overnight success that took 211 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,360 about 15 years or thereabouts from the, from the mid 90s to 212 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,920 the, the mid 2000s and late 2000s type of thing. 213 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,720 So it was really just the opportunity to be able to do 214 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,200 that. Now what, what was it like? 215 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,560 It was never simple, never easy leaving the mothership to go out 216 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:30,960 sort of pretty much on your own, you know, with, yes, with 217 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,640 friends and family support. So never simple, never easy 218 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,200 doing that. And those first five years, 219 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,480 that's what you, you asked the first five years. 220 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,360 Well, it was really quite hard work. 221 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,880 I mean, you spend your whole, your whole day, your whole week, 222 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,840 your whole life actually out there talking to people about 223 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,960 what you, what you're looking to do, talking to people about your 224 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,160 assets, raising funds to actually keep doing the work on 225 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,800 those assets and, and doing your day job all at the same time. 226 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,720 As I say to people at, at the smaller, smaller resources, 227 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,080 entrepreneurial in you spend 100% of your time talking to 228 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,600 people about your company. You spent 100% of your time 229 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,040 raising money to do the things that you're talking about. 230 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,960 And you and you spend 100% of your time doing your day job. 231 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,760 So you know it's a. It's a big task. 232 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,520 Did you, did you ever sort of think in that period maybe it 233 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,560 would have been easier just hanging on it, had it pretty 234 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,840 good at Rio? Well, there were plenty of 235 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,560 times, Jonas, during that, the first five to 10 years that I 236 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,440 thought, well, maybe I, you know, should have stayed at the 237 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,160 mothership a bit longer, but not really. 238 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,200 Look, we were going quite well. I had good encouragement and 239 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,040 support from friends and family, had very good support from all 240 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,400 of those things that we were doing, the businesses that we 241 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,720 were getting involved in. And the main one of those, of 242 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,520 course was in in Laos in the, you know, People's Democratic 243 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:05,680 Republic of Lao up there, you know, South of China and, and to 244 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:07,960 the east of Thailand and the West of Vietnam. 245 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,320 So in that, that particular corner there in Indochina and it 246 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,840 was a Rio project and, and we thought probably a bit too small 247 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,560 and bit too, bit too far away for Rio, for Rio. 248 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,040 So we, we got involved and that became our our flagship if you 249 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,160 like to you know in gold 1st and then into copper and we grew the 250 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,240 business based on that very good foundation up. 251 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,920 So a lot sort of starts coming together in that, that mid 2000s 252 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:37,480 period. You probably just got 7 as you 253 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,320 sort of just described by 2004. You consolidate prominent Hill, 254 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,280 you do a deal with with Minotaur in 2005, you buy Golden Grove 255 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,840 just to go back to the, the Asia bull market. 256 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,480 Is there a point in time where you, you really were able to 257 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,200 point to and say, you know, this what's happening in China is, is 258 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,440 quite something else. This is going to last for a 259 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,600 really sustained period and it's going to materially change the 260 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,160 the mining businesses across Australia. 261 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,280 Well, it was around about that, that time you remember there was 262 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,360 a Asian financial crisis at the end of the 90s. 263 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,080 So that that again, you know, that was a that that sort of 264 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,360 held everybody back around about that time. 265 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,080 So it was tough enough actually getting things done. 266 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,760 And then the Asian financial crisis, so you know, you had you 267 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,680 had banks and and debt markets and equity markets in difficulty 268 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,480 countries were you know, the Asian countries themselves are 269 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,360 obviously pause in terms of growth. 270 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,600 But at the same time you did see that underlying current of 271 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,440 strong growth, particularly from China and and at the same time 272 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,120 you've got Taiwan, you've got Korea, got Japan. 273 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,160 So that NE Asian complex was continuing to grow and supply 274 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,920 goods out into the whole Western mark. 275 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:03,240 So Asian financial crisis didn't last for for too long type of 276 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:04,560 thing. But it was around about that 277 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,080 time, the turn of the effectively the turn of the 278 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,080 century, if you like that you that it was starting to become 279 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,280 very clear and evident that there was, you know, it was 280 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:14,840 going to be stronger for longer here. 281 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,240 You know that you did see that you could see that growth coming 282 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,680 and you know then the next 20 years or or thereabouts, you've 283 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,360 seen everybody get on board that superhighway of economic growth 284 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,880 and prosperity or looking to get on board. 285 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,240 There's still plenty of countries that are looking to 286 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,840 continue to grow. So it was really during that 287 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,600 time we had the, we started the operation there in Laos. 288 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,920 We were building the, we built the gold mine and was operating 289 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,760 very well. We expanded the gold mine. 290 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,840 We got involved in the, in the copper mine. 291 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,400 Needed something in Australia. Remember that we're in the 292 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,960 People's Democratic Republic of Laos here. 293 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,880 It's not that well known in this part of the world, not that well 294 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,360 known to to ASX investors, not that well known to worldwide 295 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,480 investors. So despite the fact that it was 296 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,200 actually going very well, that's the the good thing about it. 297 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,480 So we needed the, we needed something in Australia or 298 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,839 nearby, something a bit more familiar, which is, as you say, 299 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:20,240 how we got involved with the project in South Australia. 300 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,599 The prominent hill ultimately built that mine that was the the 301 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,400 the mine that had the seven to eight year life to begin with 302 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,440 and will now go for 37 or 48 years or or thereabouts. 303 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,400 So did a did a terrific job there, the whole team putting 304 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,360 all that together. And then we bought closely on 305 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:45,880 that golden Grove and, and here in Australia and. 306 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,800 Multiple other acquisitions over time, but they were the. 307 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,600 That was the time around about the turn of the early part of 308 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,720 the 2000s. If you like a good strong 309 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,680 growth, good, good pricing, some good, some good luck, you know, 310 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,360 and some breaks. And and a couple of, you know, 311 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,080 some good people in the in the firm and some good decisions, 312 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,080 put it that way. So put put all of those things 313 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,880 together, Jonas gave us that the, you know, the key 314 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,480 SuccessFactors to be able to build the business. 315 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,080 Just to go deeper on accumulating the the assets 316 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,960 there, there's sort of differing views out there about the 317 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,480 revenue diversification across commodities that that a company 318 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,480 should kind of have. And I guess this one kind of 319 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,200 changes over time. A lot of people point to to 320 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,880 copper today and these guys, you know, trading on premium 321 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,640 multiples. If they're not, you know, within 322 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,280 a diversified miner, how do you kind of think about that? 323 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,640 Was that always the ambition to have a bit of gold, have a bit 324 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,840 of copper, have other base metals, zinc and lead just to 325 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,800 build that sort of diversification and, you know, 326 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,160 rigidity within the business or did that just sort of come about 327 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,960 organically? Well, I think I think bit of a 328 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,760 combo. You know, we, we, we, we had a 329 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,120 vision and, and of course as you build the business, your vision 330 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,560 tends to expand somewhat over time depending on your, the, the 331 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,560 capability of the assets that you have and, and the people and 332 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,960 the support group that you, you have. 333 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,000 OK. So we started very clear vision. 334 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,000 We're going to build this gold mine, you know, and then we're 335 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,040 going to expand the gold mine. Now we're going to add the 336 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,640 copper mine because we were copper and gold people. 337 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:31,480 We saw, you know, we saw that gold was was going to continue 338 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,560 to perform because it outperformed everything else up 339 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,880 until that time. And we saw copper going to 340 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,000 continue to perform because of its diversity of uses, if you 341 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,120 like, in terms of, of copper, red gold, we called it at the 342 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,800 time. So you know, you, you've got, 343 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,000 you've got 2 very good metals. But but then outside of that you 344 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,480 wanted, we wanted to add others including nickel and and zinc, 345 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,120 say, so sort of Basian Basin precious metals We're the. 346 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:02,040 Bulk commodities, whether it was coal, whether it was iron ore, 347 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,400 really. Had to come next, let's let's 348 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:09,800 build this basin precious metals business and and then perhaps go 349 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,440 to diversified later because Janice in in answer to your 350 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:20,960 question, we we saw a long term future for a good scale mining 351 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,960 company. Mining and minerals processing 352 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,800 company to be, you know, reasonably well diversified, 353 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,320 didn't want to focus only on basin precious metals. 354 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,000 We thought we should add to that metallurgical coal, for example. 355 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:38,120 And iron ore, in fact, ultimately because of the steel 356 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:41,080 industry. Growth potential and and you 357 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,680 know the. The steel industry as you as you 358 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,880 know as well as I do has actually grown enormously over 359 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,160 the past 2 1/2 decades. So type of thing. 360 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,480 So it's very much horses for courses. 361 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,600 You got to focus on those things that you've got in hand. 362 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,840 You've got to have the vision and it's really a step by step 363 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,560 approach. And that's that's where we 364 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,280 wanted to take this business because we think that long term 365 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,480 shareholder value in a mining company is grown by taking it 366 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,000 all the way down. Now that's the BHPS, that's the 367 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,360 Rio Tintos, that's the Anglos, that's the Glencos. 368 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,920 They're, they're those big guys, long term sustainable high 369 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,920 return businesses. That's where we were taking the 370 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,320 company. I swore he was just about to 371 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,400 mention MMTS then when he was talking about long term 372 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,680 sustainable high return businesses. 373 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,880 Jay's didn't that come into that's when they're talking FMG 374 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,160 Rio badge pay. I'll just MMTS same sort of same 375 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,760 definition. Yeah, rolls off the tongue. 376 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,280 The OG of mining title compliance in all Australian 377 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,920 jurisdictions. I I'll just repeat that. 378 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,440 All Australian jurisdictions, right cut. 379 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,400 It reminds me that I think we've done it before, that Wolf of 380 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,440 Wall Street thing like cutting edge land monitoring systems for 381 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,520 finding new title application opportunities across Australia, 382 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,760 similar to what was it called. Aero. 383 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,200 Aero time, that's. The one that's the one. 384 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,760 Yeah, pretty much the equivalent of that, but not a penny stock. 385 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,600 So mate, they are that good. MMTS are doing this. 386 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,680 They know in advance via telepathic messages where the 387 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,960 mining owners are even considering not renewing a title 388 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,960 or selling one. Every corner of the country, 389 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,720 every corner. Up here it's just messages 390 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,960 coming in but. You know how valuable a mine is 391 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,600 if you don't have title to it. It's not valuable. 392 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,840 Good for nothing. Good for nothing. 393 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,480 Industry leaders. You give either Helen or Shannon 394 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,320 a call and be to just be prepared to be impressed, Yeah, 395 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,680 by their awesomeness. Feel it is go MMTS. 396 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,600 You beauty. So come 2008, you know, it's 397 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,200 been a, been a hell of a 13 or 14 years and you, you announced 398 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,920 this big deal sort of headline $12 billion merger Oxiana and 399 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,160 Zen Effects coming together in March of 2008. 400 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,000 So the beginning of, you know, what ultimately became a 401 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,800 volatile year all around the world. 402 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,400 But I'm keen to tap into doing a deal like that. 403 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,920 So I was reading some articles in the AFR and the Australian 404 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,600 from the time and this talk that this deal took, you know, over a 405 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,320 year to kind of piece together what what was sort of crafting 406 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,680 that deal like and what are the the underweighted factors in 407 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,360 doing a deal of that sort of magnitude. 408 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,040 Yes. Well, again, it was as you say, 409 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,680 it's a volatile period. So it was a pretty tough time. 410 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,800 But we saw the just going back to my point about the 411 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,040 diversification, we think you've got to get got to get bigger and 412 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,840 you've got to be more diversified. 413 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,840 There were multiple opportunities for us at the time 414 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,920 to do that. We had a number of organic 415 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,600 opportunities and we were pursuing those and we had the 416 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:02,240 had the wherewithal to be able to do that. 417 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,240 But we thought there were some inorganic, some acquisitive type 418 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,920 opportunities again with with diversity into into the bulk 419 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,440 commodities and with diversity into both into. 420 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,360 Base and precious metals so so actually. 421 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,720 The the, the merger with Zinefx of about the same size was a 422 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:27,760 whilst you say it took 12 months or so to do because the GFC sort 423 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,760 of got in the way a bit there, but it was, it was one step in 424 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:40,040 the road to a bigger, wider diverse vision that we had for 425 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,040 the company. So it. 426 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,480 Was one step. It had, you know, world class 427 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,160 operations and it had a very good growth profile itself. 428 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,160 We knew the people, we knew the industry were very comfortable 429 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,600 with all of all of those things. So, so it was a it was a 430 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,600 marriage that or a merger that was actually going to be 431 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,960 relatively straightforward in terms of putting the companies 432 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,000 and the people and the projects and the synergies and so on 433 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,480 together. What? 434 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,600 What? It didn't become straightforward 435 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,160 because of the the GFC just interrupted the whole process, 436 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,120 you know, unfortunately. But then, but the pieces were 437 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:24,040 picked up and and and it went on to be very successful in in 438 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:28,640 back, back into two companies, MMG and and OZ mineral. 439 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,240 So I mean all all of. Those things ultimately worked, 440 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,040 but they got sort of interfered with if you like during the GFC. 441 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,560 But, but in answer to your question, Jonas, it was really 442 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:45,680 part of a a strategy to put together multiple commodities 443 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,720 because we think long term value is grown by having a good 444 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,120 diverse strength to put those multiple commodities together 445 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,160 over a period of time. You don't do it simply, you 446 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,560 don't do it easily. You don't do it real fast. 447 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,840 Time and you've got to take the opportunities as they come to 448 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,280 you and you can actually create them. 449 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,960 So it it does take time to put all of that together. 450 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,280 So one of the big factors at that time was that credit 451 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,680 markets just really locked up. And as you sort of mentioned 452 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,560 before we spoke, you know, bankers wouldn't even pick up 453 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,280 the phone. And this this became a, a real 454 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,240 tough point for what became Oz Minerals that the merged entity 455 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,440 there with, you know, the refinancing of the debt hitting 456 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,600 a, you know, hitting a hump in the road. 457 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,240 Having experienced that and, and looking back with with 458 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,720 hindsight, how do you think about the debt levels within a 459 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,760 mining organisation? Not necessarily like technicals 460 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,840 EBITDA times, you know net debt levels, but how do you kind of 461 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,320 think more holistically about the leverage with inside a 462 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,360 mining business having lived through that period? 463 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,080 Yes. Well, look, I think it's. 464 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:56,240 It's very much horses for courses. 465 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,520 I mean at, at the time of course of the of the GFC, you know, as 466 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,480 you say you, you couldn't get the banks to answer the phone, 467 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,920 they weren't responding. It was very difficult to whether 468 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,920 it was a refinance, whether it was a deferral, whether it was 469 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,360 whether it was really some elementary questions that you 470 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:17,080 wanted to, you know, talk to them about it. 471 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,600 It was just a very, very difficult time. 472 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,760 And it wasn't as if the company was in any way shape or form 473 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,200 over leverage. The the debt levels were 474 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,440 relatively modest relative to as you say EBITDA multiples and 475 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,800 various other things at the time. 476 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,000 It's just that one or two were coming due so as to speak and 477 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,680 that just made it a bit awkward from the very, very short term. 478 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,200 So how do we think about it? Well, we think about it pretty 479 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,040 much the same way as everybody else does. 480 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,800 Got to, it's got to be. Within your means so as to 481 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,080 speak. I mean you must. 482 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,840 You must always be considering leverage to ensure that you 483 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,880 provide the right returns to your. 484 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,200 Equity shareholders, but it's got to be within your means, 485 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,040 whether you call that modest levels or reasonable levels or 486 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,560 five times EBITDAR or two times or whatever, whatever, you know 487 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,240 with hedging, without hedging, long term, short term working 488 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,920 capital, whatever sort of metrics and and so on that you 489 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,080 want to put around it. You, you, you're always thinking 490 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,160 of, of those sorts of things and you're always. 491 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,360 Looking at it with one eye on, well, you know, the future, 492 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,920 we're talking about interest rates, what's the Fed going to 493 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,080 do, what's the RBA going to do? So you're always looking at 494 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,600 those things and your finance team always looking at it, 495 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,280 always looking from the from the point of view of what are the 496 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,920 requirements of the business. Going forward, in other words, 497 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,080 what cash flows do you need? To. 498 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,160 Continue to grow your business. What cash flows do do you want 499 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,240 to ensure that your shareholders are rewarded? 500 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,600 And you know, debt is an important part of all that. 501 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,840 And by the way, of course those debt markets come and go a bit 502 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,080 too. You know, whether it's the bond 503 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,400 market or the OR the banking market and so on, as well as the 504 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,040 equity markets do go up and down. 505 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,160 Or. The availability of of equity, 506 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,080 it's one thing to say, well, yes, we think we can, we should 507 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,520 be putting some debt on this particular project, but it's not 508 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,360 available, you know so or. You'd like to put more equity, 509 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,080 but that's not available. So you know, you've got to go 510 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,480 with the with the flow a bit from time to time as well. 511 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,960 And that's another reason, Jones, another reason to 512 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,720 actually be diversified. In other words, get get into 513 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,280 metals and commodities that do give you that sort of diversity. 514 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,520 And, and arrange where people will say, well, we like to have 515 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,200 some gold in the portfolio because it's a hitch, you know, 516 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,440 when things are tough, people, people will, you know, there's a 517 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,240 flight to gold so as to speak. So always good to have some of 518 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,920 that in the portfolio, so to speak. 519 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,360 Steel industry met coal and and iron ore, you know the the whole 520 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,400 information technology communications and and 521 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,920 electrical and energy transition industries met all of those be 522 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,960 in copper so. That that's the sort of very 523 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,880 high level strategic. Thinking if you like? 524 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,760 Well, you can't get any more bloody high level and strategic 525 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,000 than CRE insurance broking services can you boys? 526 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,040 Not at all mate, mate. I was talking to Tari the other 527 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,000 day and holy snap and duck shit. There is some thought from the 528 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,080 CRE crew that goes into protecting mining companies and 529 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,200 mining services companies from risk. 530 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,320 Tell me. Oh mate, the I won't tell you, 531 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,760 I'll get them to tell you because mate, the office still 532 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,280 stands, doesn't it? A free review of your existing 533 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,800 insurance policies. If you're a mining company, 534 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,160 mining services provider, there might be gaps, you don't know. 535 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,160 Doesn't matter if you own the mine, you want to service the 536 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,360 mine, you need good insurance, you need CRE to broke the 537 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,120 policies for you for Australia, Africa or anywhere in the 538 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,720 bloody. World how often do we see 539 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,200 surprises to the downside in in releases mate? 540 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,400 Well guess what? I'm pretty sure the best people 541 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,520 to to to price that risk the underwriters. 542 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,200 So get in touch with CR insurance and sort it. 543 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,720 Out mate, if you want to put out a positive ISX announcement 544 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,320 because you had a sensational insurance policy and you want 545 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,120 like which could be share price accretive, it's only going to 546 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,600 happen if CRE broke it for you. It's the the unknown unknowns 547 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,040 that are really scary and you have a chat with these guys, 548 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,200 they know every single in and out of the insurance game. 549 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720 Just get them to run their eyes over your report and you'll be. 550 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,720 You will feel more comfortable. Just turn insurance into a 551 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,840 positive, That's it. We know positive insurance 552 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,200 stories out there. CRE are going to deliver it. 553 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,760 Go CRE. So at at a personal level by the 554 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,400 end of 2008 you're leaving Oz Minerals with a few other things 555 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,680 on the on the horizon. But there was a sort of 556 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,400 publicised termination payment that didn't get voted through at 557 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,360 the AGM. Was that disappointing from the 558 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,880 perspective you've been at the company sort of 14 years, you'd 559 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,200 LED it for a long time. Was it sort of understandable in 560 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,240 the light of everything that had gone on, as we sort of just 561 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,840 discussed? How did you feel about that at 562 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,040 the time? Look, I think it's a bit 563 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,200 unfortunate timing, you might say. 564 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,880 I mean right in the middle of the of the global financial 565 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,800 crisis, when, when equity markets have been smashed, I 566 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,320 mean countries have been smashed, commodities have been 567 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,040 smashed, companies have been smashed. 568 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,800 Individuals have been smashed. So, so asking for approvals for 569 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,800 anything. And of course you have to, if 570 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,960 you're making payments to directors, various other things, 571 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,440 you know, whether they're termination, whether they're, 572 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,360 you know, your accumulated leave, whatever, whatever it is 573 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,040 that you're asking for, you're always going to get a bit of a, 574 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,160 you know, a negative response out there. 575 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,000 So it was probably more unfortunate timing than anything 576 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,320 else really, I mean. You know, at that time, not, 577 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,160 not, not a great time, but you know, you, you've got a, you 578 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,280 know, from out of adversity comes opportunity as far as I 579 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,480 was concerned, that's always been my attitude to it. 580 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,960 So. We we we grew back and the 581 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:18,760 companies sailed off and and did did very well and then between 582 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,240 myself and my partners and verse other people, we actually got. 583 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,000 We got into other businesses, we got it, got into other things, 584 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,720 so we sort of recoup, recovered, refreshed and re emerged. 585 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,600 That's a real stand out feature. What you just mentioned there 586 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,520 something I really noticed digging in into the sort of 587 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,440 experiences you've had that the same names keep popping up in 588 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,520 and around you, whether that be from your Rio Tinto days to your 589 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,240 Oxiana days through to your EMR days. 590 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,080 And I, you know, from the outside, I think that's quite an 591 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,320 admirable trait to, to work with people for for so long. 592 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,240 What's the kind of, you know, thinking that? 593 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,600 Have you just got a good group of people that you enjoy working 594 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:58,760 with? Are there are there secrets? 595 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,920 Is it a bit of a you know, and fro at times? 596 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,360 How do you think about it? Well, look, the way I think 597 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,239 about it is very lucky, you know, very lucky to have had the 598 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,719 so called career, if you like, in terms of Rio Tinto and the Ox 599 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,800 and various other things I've been involved in, including, you 600 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,000 know, the mighty EMR that we are today. 601 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,040 And very lucky to have been associated with some amazing 602 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,960 people and some of whom are still, you know, with us and, 603 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,239 and working with us and so on. So I've always, you know, had a 604 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,320 great admiration for their capabilities and you know, 605 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,440 without them in a way we wouldn't have had the the things 606 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,440 that we've been able to achieve over that period of time. 607 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,600 So that's the way I think about I think that they are, you know, 608 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,679 we're part of team, nothing more powerful really than people 609 00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:54,199 working together in teams. You know, you, you see that, we 610 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,480 see that. And, and it's so important in, 611 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,360 you know, what we've been through, particularly those 612 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,920 volatile periods. I mean, the the team really, 613 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,720 really comes together, you know, when things are, when things are 614 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,240 a bit on the top side. So you know that that's been 615 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,640 terribly important, terribly important to me in terms of 616 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,680 survival, but terribly important to them too in terms of all of 617 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,760 those people working together. So it's, it's not as if it's a 618 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,440 team of 25 players. You know, it's a team of a few 619 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,560 people, including Tony Manini or Jason Chang and, and various 620 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,800 others that we've worked with over the last 2025, thirty 621 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,480 years. And, and as I say Jonas, I've 622 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,160 also been, you know, lucky enough to work with a whole 623 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,320 range of wonderful people in various areas, whether it's in 624 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:49,400 Rio Tinto, CRA, FMG, for example, and, and all of the 625 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,960 other sort of industry groupings, if you like, around. 626 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,360 So not just the companies per SE, but also the advisory groups 627 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,560 and the the Mets, you know, the mining equipment, technical 628 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,200 services people and so on. So I feel, I feel very lucky 629 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,560 that I've had that experience and, you know, still. 630 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,000 Working with them. But another group you've worked 631 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,640 with is Fortescue Metals. You joined as a non exec 632 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,320 director in late 2008, eventually became the the vice 633 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,320 chairman there. What what was that like? 634 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,880 I was reading presentations, you know, last night about Fortescue 635 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,520 from 2008 and it's, it's remarkable the, the speed at 636 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,760 which things were built, put together, you know, put on a 637 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,840 ship and send is sort of mind blowing. 638 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,920 And you just really wonder whether you can do something 639 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,680 like that today. But what was it like, you know, 640 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,600 to at a board level, obviously there was some, some brushes as 641 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,000 well when markets got tight. What how did you sort of see 642 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,400 your role there? Can you sort of speak to the 643 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,920 experience overall in that sort of entrepreneurial culture that 644 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,680 they have? Well, look very interesting and 645 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,240 very exciting. No, no question about that from 646 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,320 2008. And we, we, we were back in 2008 647 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,560 just 5 minutes ago and it was a pretty tough time, right? 648 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,840 So, so I came on the board then as a non executive director and 649 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,920 I spent eight or nine years there all the way through to 650 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,600 vice chairman and, and it was a, it was a, you know, challenging 651 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,200 time, but remember, China was still growing and growing very 652 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,680 fast, right? So yes, there was the GFC and 653 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,840 that impacted every country on the, on the planet, But but 654 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,120 China came back very, very strongly and FMG was growing at 655 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,440 the time. FMG was dedicated pretty much 656 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,920 entirely at that time to the China market and it and it was, 657 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,080 you know, pretty adverse conditions in terms of the 658 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,680 competitiveness of the industry at that time. 659 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,880 But very good support from China, very good support from 660 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,880 all of the customers in that part of the world to be able to 661 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,680 continue to grow the business now. 662 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,400 And, and, and Andrew just an amazing entrepreneur, amazing 663 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,760 vision and, and foresight and an amazing Australian really the 664 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,520 way he's been able to build that business. 665 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,840 But, but also same, same in terms of teams. 666 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,800 We're talking about teams a bit bit earlier. 667 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,800 I mean, people in that team would apart from Andrew, which 668 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,480 is just amazing. Nevada Power as the, as the CEO, 669 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:35,680 Peter MERS as the development director, Stephen Pearce as the, 670 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,600 as the CFO. So just a terrific group of 671 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,640 people at that senior management level. 672 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,320 And then then the board, you know, you've got the people of 673 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:50,760 the of the capability of Ian Burstyn, of of Herb Elliott, 674 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,240 Elizabeth Gaines, Mark Barnabas. So these people just fantastic. 675 00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,360 And the and it was. It was also. 676 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,200 A very clear focus, Jonas, This is, you know, this, this is what 677 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,480 we're going to do. Well, I know. 678 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,200 You know, we're in these these tenements and these mines. 679 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,920 Here's the vision. These are the things that we're 680 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,600 going to do over this period of of time. 681 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,560 We've got a. Very good market position and 682 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,600 we're we've got very good teamwork and we've got very good 683 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:26,800 culture and we will move at the speed of light, if not faster if 684 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,280 we have to. And that was the that was the 685 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,200 type of culture that that was had. 686 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,200 And we're able to do it now. You know, you've got to have a 687 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,360 bit of luck along the way. Of course, you've got to have 688 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,720 the wind behind you at at certain times, but we're able to 689 00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,520 bounce. We're able to get through some 690 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,600 of those difficult times and of course build it is whatever the. 691 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:54,840 Number is the $50 billion, a $100 billion company you know 692 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,480 from, you know, small icons. So you're not sort of sitting 693 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:06,280 still at the same time you're. Building EMR 2011, 2012 Start 694 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,480 raising that first fund. What? 695 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,120 What is fundraising for a mining private equity group? 696 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,200 There wasn't many of them at the time. 697 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,760 There's still not too many of them. 698 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,440 What was that like? Well, look, again, never simple, 699 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,360 never easy, but you've got to have the the right group of 700 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,960 people, you've got to be going to the right markets and you've 701 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:31,360 got to have a good sort of, if you like vision, a culture and 702 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,520 pipeline, you've got to have a good pipeline of things that you 703 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,520 are looking at that you've got an option on or something that 704 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,200 you've done a lot of work on to be able to show people that 705 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,360 these are the things that that we want to get on with. 706 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,240 You know, so doesn't mean you have to do all of them, but you 707 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,560 want to be able to show them all of that. 708 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,080 And and of course I think we were coming off during that 709 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,560 early part of the 2000 and 10s there that sort of second decade 710 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:05,320 we're coming off, you know, the oil and gas business in the US 711 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,600 was going very well. Most of our limited partners 712 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,120 were American limited partners. So that's where most of the 713 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,760 capital came from at the that direct capital they had a 714 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,840 surplus from. Oil and gas, they're looking to 715 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,040 get into mining. They didn't have a lot of mining 716 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,160 exposure. They're very familiar with the 717 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,080 private equity model, whether it was oil and gas or or other 718 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,680 things. So, you know, again, we were 719 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:36,480 good timing, good luck and a very, very good pitch pack and a 720 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,520 very good team of people with a good strong track record. 721 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,960 Jones. They, they were the sort of the 722 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,640 key features, if you like, and a very clear focus on those things 723 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,240 that we wanted to invest in. You know, we didn't want to be 724 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:54,080 all things to all people. We wanted to focus on the, you 725 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,760 know, the copper, the gold, the base and precious metals in that 726 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,320 area. We wanted to focus on 727 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,720 metallurgical coal as part of the whole steel business. 728 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,840 And we wanted to focus on potash, which was as part of the 729 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:14,640 whole food, you know, fertiliser dynamic, thematic dynamic, you 730 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,960 know, long term type of thing. So, so a focus, a vision, good 731 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,160 clear people, good track record and I and and great networking 732 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,800 and relationships, particularly in the Asian region where where 733 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,360 the growth was and continues to be. 734 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,360 So you, you mentioned good timing there. 735 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,600 And that's, that's a really interesting one because you 736 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,520 know, you're, you raised ultimately 3 funds now and you 737 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,600 know, the timing is different at each point. 738 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,520 And this is one of the critiques, if you like, of, of 739 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,200 mining private equity is that you have to get the timing 740 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,280 right. It makes the repeatability hard, 741 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,320 but the timing, you know, like you said, didn't that turn out 742 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,840 quite good. You picked up a lot of assets in 743 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,680 that sort of 151617 period when commodity markets were, you know 744 00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:07,800 in in the doldrums a bit. How do you think about repeating 745 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,480 that given, you know, a lot of it's dependent on the cycles of 746 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,680 the commodities? Yes, well, again. 747 00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:17,400 The usual story, never simple, never easy. 748 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,400 All the usual risks are sort of available to you. 749 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,000 All the pitfalls and and and risks of our industry, if you 750 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,760 like and cyclicity and volatility, all of those things 751 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,480 are sort of available to you and and it's impossible to get the 752 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,160 timing absolutely right. So you know, but but as I say, 753 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,200 as long as you've. Got that that strength. 754 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:44,000 Of your people and background and experience. 755 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,280 And and focus and persistence is, is another part of that, 756 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,200 right? I mean, if you miss it, if you 757 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,840 miss it 1, you know, cycle or year, then you have to, you 758 00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,040 know, have to have sufficient continuity and longevity to be 759 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,160 able to pick it up next time around. 760 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,880 So I think I think good. Assets and good people will 761 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,960 survive all of that. So you've got to, you've got to 762 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,880 stick with that thematic and, and be persistent about it type 763 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,760 of thing. So again, use your story, you've 764 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,200 actually got to get out there. You got to sell your wares, you 765 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,920 got to spend all of that time telling people about your story 766 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,400 and the, and the rewards are there for sure. 767 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,360 You know, so you can't get absolutely everything right, 768 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,680 That's for sure. As I say, you need some good 769 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,160 luck as well as some good timing, but it's it's usually. 770 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:45,520 Lots of very good hard work that actually sees sees off 771 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,680 everything. So I want to talk about a number 772 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,320 of the deals you've now done. So in that in that period you 773 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,160 picked up Kestrel, It's the first one I'm keen to talk about 774 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,840 Queensland cooking coal asset. A lot has happened since you you 775 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,400 picked that up in that period. You know, the most, you know, 776 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,320 the stand out feature to me is the change in royalty regime in 777 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,480 Queensland. How do you how do you think 778 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,240 about that new set and the government sort of, you know, 779 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,200 changing the goal posts if you like? 780 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,760 Yes, OK. Well, look, Kestrel was a, a Rio 781 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,480 Tinto asset. So we, we, we knew of course Rio 782 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,720 Tinto obviously and we knew the asset we wanted to get involved 783 00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:32,160 in metallurgical coal. We, we knew that when, when one 784 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,360 of the bigger companies is looking to sell over, over a 785 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,720 period of time, well, you know, you know that some of these 786 00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:43,640 assets will, will just not get the capital, they won't get the 787 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,920 attention, they won't get the management and so on. 788 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,240 So it's a, in a way, it's a bit of a happy hunting ground for 789 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,760 people like ourselves so that we're private equity or building 790 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,280 this or that, that. So you can you maintain that 791 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,240 those relationships and obviously pay the right price 792 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,360 then then you can see significant upside there. 793 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,040 And and we saw that in terms of it had a very long life. 794 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,120 So you're not dealing with something that was all going to 795 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,440 be over in the next four or five years, very long life you have 796 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,360 to 25 and much, much beyond that years. 797 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,360 So you had time to do the work and we saw that the capability 798 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,640 of the team, the capability of the equipment and and the 799 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,520 market, if you like, for that particular call was in very good 800 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,600 shape. So all of those things we saw 801 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,040 and that's why we got involved and we were able to increase 802 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,120 production, reduce costs. I mean, we're not a, we're not a 803 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,840 slash and burn, slash burn and churn type firm. 804 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,680 You know, you the best way to increase or to reduce costs is, 805 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,360 is increased volume that'll get the that'll get the unit cost 806 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,520 down, so to speak. So, so it was actually very 807 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,400 successful from that perspective and, and still is and, and 808 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,360 operating very well doesn't mean you don't go go through a few 809 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,920 humps and bumps along the way. The bump, the bump that you 810 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:14,400 refer to in terms of royalty rates going up very 811 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,720 significantly, definitely an issue. 812 00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,400 And, and you've only got to look at the charts from whether it's 813 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:27,560 BHP or Anglo in the, in the public domain to see the sort of 814 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,440 imposition that, that royalty is in terms of their all in 815 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,880 sustaining costs. You know, it's, it's one thing 816 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,880 to have your, you know, your people and your, your labour and 817 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,120 your equipment and the energy that you need. 818 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,000 And they're the remain operating costs, if you like. 819 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:49,240 And on top of that, you've got a very, very, very high royalty 820 00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,840 regime at this time. Of course, we're going to be 821 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,280 paying royalties wherever we are. 822 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,440 There's not, not an issue, but you know, this is a, this is a 823 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:03,240 serious imposition. And well, you've, what do you 824 00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:04,800 do? I mean, at City Hall at the end 825 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,440 of the day, of course, you, you go there and, and present and, 826 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,480 and represent in terms of what it can and it can't do. 827 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,680 But you know what that really can and can't do. 828 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,240 But at the end of the day, that's the regulator and you got 829 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,080 to follow them. You got to follow the regular. 830 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,960 So what it puts the weights back on you than to, you know, drive 831 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,520 your, your cost base, you know, down to increase your volumes 832 00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:37,360 and, and probably to look at other not, not so much other 833 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,000 commodities, but if you want to remain in that commodity, look 834 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,520 at other destinations, you know, that have suddenly have become 835 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,400 more competitive because of the sort of fiscal regime has 836 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,560 changed. So I've not been a rambling 837 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,280 answer there to that question on on, on Kestrel and royalties. 838 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,800 But I should say that is a, it's a package operation that's one 839 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,920 of the best, most productive long wall, underground long wall 840 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,640 operations in not in not only in the Bowen Basin in Queensland, 841 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,480 but in the world. So, you know, we're very proud. 842 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,760 So how do you think about selling it then? 843 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,200 Well, we are private equity. So at the end of the day, one 844 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,520 way or another, you know, we need to, we need to sell, we 845 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,560 need to, you know, transition out if you like it at some point 846 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,800 in time. So the so the funds that we 847 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,200 have. Is is not permanent capital, 848 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,560 it's 10 year capital with with extensions, I mean with with 849 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,240 your LP shareholder approval you can extend but but you don't. 850 00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:44,040 Really want to extend? You want to be able to get 851 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,240 involved in an asset. Make your improvements and then 852 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,080 and then ultimately get out. So that's, that's what we that's 853 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,000 what we prefer to do. And and there'll be a time 854 00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,920 coming for Kestrel. So to, to move to another asset 855 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,120 rule, Bombay is a copper asset in Zambia that you picked up a 856 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,800 number of years ago, since sold out a big state in conjunction 857 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,320 with cobalt metals who are doing something a bit interesting 858 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,360 with, with AI trying to improve their expiration targeting and 859 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,360 these sorts of things. Is that something you've spent a 860 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,360 long time looking at understanding? 861 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,880 Yes, well, we've actually sold it 100%. 862 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,960 So just just coming back, just Jonas just coming back to the 863 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,600 Bambi, the we. We got involved there 5-6 864 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:42,080 something years ago in Zambia, always thought Zambia, Zambia 865 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,080 terrific place by the way, in the copper belt on the, the, 866 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,480 the, the, the, the junction there the border between Zambia 867 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,480 and the DRC. So you know the world famous. 868 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,880 Copper belt people been mining. There for a very long period. 869 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,360 Of time La Bambi was wasn't the biggest mine, but wasn't the 870 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,640 smallest mine in the copper belt was owned by. 871 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,080 Valet and African Rainbow, they wanted to get out. 872 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,640 They that that particular venture wasn't working out for 873 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,160 them. We saw it as an opportunity not 874 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,840 only to get that existing mine going well, in other words, 875 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,760 hitting targets, getting the drum beat and beating out. 876 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,840 It's 30 to 40,000 tonnes per annum of copper, but also to do 877 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,800 the work on the deeper what we call the extension ore body. 878 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,520 We're talking several 100 million tonnes of very high 879 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,320 grade copper. It hadn't been drilled out. 880 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,600 No real studies have been done on it. 881 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,240 We saw that was an opportunity to grow very significant value. 882 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:50,440 That extension ore body ultimately the was renamed the 883 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:56,560 Mingomba Ore body and that's now owned by Cobalt Metals out of 884 00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,880 the US and and ZCCM. The government company there. 885 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:07,800 And the mine so that, that we've split the, the project from the 886 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,600 existing mine itself, the, the mine itself is now owned mainly 887 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,960 by JCSX, the contractor, the mining contractor there. 888 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,200 The game we know very well they've been working with us for 889 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,160 years and years out there between them. 890 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:28,040 And again, ZCCM, the government entity is also a shareholder, 891 00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,640 minority shareholder and that so. 892 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,920 So you've got the mine. Sort of 8020, something like 893 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,600 that JCHXZZZM and then you've got the Mingomba rule body, 894 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,040 which again is 8020 cobalt metals, cobalt metals, very good 895 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,880 people. They've done an amazing job with 896 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:51,400 the exploration technology, you know, badging as as AI. 897 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,760 They've raised significant funds and, and they've, they've, 898 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,800 they've paid us for that project for the Mingomba. 899 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:06,160 Project and they're working very hard drilling it out getting 900 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,120 getting increasing resources, increasing reserves, getting all 901 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,440 of the relevant studies done and growing very significant value. 902 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:14,840 Yes, it's a. It's a. 903 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,440 Bit deeper orebody there starts at about 1000 metres or 904 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,600 thereabouts, but very, very high grade and in the copper belt. 905 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,840 So you've got a got established infrastructure workforce, a 906 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,640 social licence. So we provided them with 907 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,280 effectively with the social licence to operate there given 908 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,280 the all of the work we did at the mine and and that particular 909 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,680 project. So that they are pretty well 910 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,480 good to go. They've still got work to do 911 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,760 there and getting the studies done, but then that mine will 912 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,320 definitely ultimately be built. So to, to bring us a bit closer 913 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,600 to home, Ravenswood is another asset you picked up not, not all 914 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,720 that long ago in, in 2020 from Resolute in a, in a consortium 915 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,920 to buy off Resolute that's now had, you know, four years of 916 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,920 investment output has expanded significantly at the asset. 917 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,040 And it's, you know, in more broader terms, not a bad time 918 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,440 to, to own a gold mine. How do you think about selling 919 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,400 that one? Is this one that's going to, you 920 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,920 know, only play out in a number of years time or is that 921 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,840 something in the back of your mind already? 922 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,400 Well, look, Ravenswood was, has been. 923 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,360 You know, good success story. No, no question about that. 924 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,240 But again, the usual story with these things, Jones, nothing 925 00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:32,720 simple, nothing's easy. Everything has its humps and 926 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:36,800 bumps along the way. So as to speak in our industry 927 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,520 tends to follow us. Around so yes, we bought it 928 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:47,560 during COVID and and we to end of 2019, so 2020 yes, we closed 929 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,920 it. And we spent these last four 930 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:55,320 years and several $100 million, you know, expanding and 931 00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,120 improving that operation up to, you know, well north of 200,000 932 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:05,080 oz per annum capable. Queensland's largest gold mine. 933 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:09,080 In fact, we've, we've created it there just to the South of 934 00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:12,040 Townsville going going back into history. 935 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,200 We bought it from Resolute and, and you know, various payments 936 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,240 over a period of time, some of which are are still to come to 937 00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:22,800 Resolute. Resolute was very, very focused 938 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,640 on West Africa doing the London listing and so on. 939 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,520 So Ravenswood wasn't going to get any capital. 940 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,880 And so we saw it as an opportunity to inject Syria's 941 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,720 capital and and grow that business. 942 00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,920 And we got it right. In terms of gold, clearly, you 943 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,840 know, I mean, good as gold, as they say. 944 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:48,240 I was talking a bit earlier about the early 2000s when we 945 00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:51,560 were looking, we sold gold at $220.00 an ounce. 946 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,400 That is now more than 10 times that, you know, 20 years later. 947 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,280 So that's a terrific, terrific return. 948 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,240 Gold is always going to be in long strong demand. 949 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,480 You know, it's a commodity, it's a currency, it's a store of 950 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:07,200 value. It's a hedge against 951 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:11,160 geopolitical and financial uncertainties and so on. 952 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,280 So you want to be as long as strong as you possibly can in 953 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,200 gold. At the same time, of course we 954 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,280 are a private equity firm. So we need to actually continue 955 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:27,680 to turn over assets so we can go again back to the market and 956 00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,320 look to get another fund so as to speak. 957 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:36,400 So if the, if the asset is at it's where we where we wanted to 958 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,080 drive it to in terms of volume, in terms of costs, in terms of 959 00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:44,440 exploration upside and and potential and so on, then it's, 960 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,600 you know, then of course it's, it's available. 961 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,240 I mean, actually whether it's available or not, we've got 962 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,240 plenty of people join us knocking on the door looking to 963 00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:58,520 buy it because it is, it's a quality operation in terms of 964 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:03,000 tonnes grade resources, reserves, all in sustaining 965 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,360 costs. And it's right there just to the 966 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,400 South of Townsville. I mean, it's not in the middle 967 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,320 of absolute nowhere type of thing. 968 00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,240 It's a really good place to operate anyway, That's that's 969 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,520 that's how we think about Ravenswood at this time. 970 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,680 So another group of assets you picked up in that mid 2010 971 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:28,360 period was Capricorn Copper Golden Grove asset out in, in 972 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,720 Chile as well. These, you know, the, the two 973 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:36,360 Aussie assets come together in what's now 29 medals ASX listed. 974 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,000 Obviously people will be familiar with that one. 975 00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,280 I want to dive into the, the exit sort of strategy. 976 00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:48,720 So that was listed in 2021 and EMA maintained a, a decent stake 977 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,240 in the business, which it still holds to this day. 978 00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,600 How is the sort of thinking there changed? 979 00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,680 Would you do anything different with with hindsight? 980 00:57:58,120 --> 00:57:59,160 Look. Yeah. 981 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:04,240 The, the, the vision there was to take those 3 assets, put them 982 00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,480 together and form 29 metals. We thought that was the best 983 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,960 strategy at the time in terms of in terms of exit, so. 984 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,680 You've got Golden Grove operating in WA, you've got, 985 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,680 you've got Capricorn Copper operating in Queensland, you've 986 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,600 got a Chilean asset Chile, you know, still the world's largest 987 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:29,120 premier copper producing countries, a great, great region 988 00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:31,360 with plenty of upside over there. 989 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,760 So, so we thought the, the, the whole would be better than the 990 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,400 sum of the parts, if you like, in terms of putting all of that 991 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,120 together. And, and the market was calling 992 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:45,800 for, you know, publicly listed copper as and still is, you 993 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,680 know, still still calling for them. 994 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,400 OK. So we, we thought the best path 995 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,520 at that time was, was to do that. 996 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,800 And, and generally speaking that is that's true, right. 997 00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:02,400 If you've got you will tend to get a better rating for a number 998 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,960 of assets rather than just a single mining operation. 999 00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,080 So we put it together, we listed it at $2.00. 1000 00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,520 We returned some money to our investors. 1001 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,600 We left some money in the, in the company to continue to grow 1002 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,920 the, the company so as to speak. So we listed at $2.00 per share. 1003 00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,640 It actually went it was very successful got done the the 1004 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:31,880 stock price went to three dollars 2330 something and and 1005 00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,960 today it's back in the 40 cent zone. 1006 00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,280 So what went wrong there? You know how does all that work? 1007 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:42,560 Well, you know markets come off clearly, but we really 1008 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,840 underperformed in a couple of areas. 11 was effectively 1009 00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,760 external forces there. We had, we had a severe rainfall 1010 00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,720 event up at in Queensland north of Mount Isa at Capricorn Copper 1011 00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,880 that took on more water than you can actually ever believe. 1012 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:04,240 Most much of it is still there and we were looking to release 1013 01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,720 that over, over a period of time. 1014 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,560 You and you can't really operate in any way, shape or form near, 1015 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,120 near capacity when you've still got that water there. 1016 01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,680 You've got to treat it, you've got to release it so it doesn't 1017 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,480 happen. Overnight, so not, not a simple 1018 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,760 matter and of course your many of your treatment facilities, 1019 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,840 whether it's a ponding or whether it's the water treatment 1020 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:33,480 plant underwater, you know, so the damage there's the damage is 1021 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,320 still to be repaired if if you like. 1022 01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,080 So we've got to get that got to get that done. 1023 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,520 So that, that has been a, you know, that's been a very serious 1024 01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,920 blow for the company and we couldn't have done much about 1025 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,680 that, right. We had all of the diversion 1026 01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:51,120 channels in place. We, we provided for one in you 1027 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,560 know, 75 or 100 year events and we got one that was one in 250 1028 01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,240 year event type of thing. So we were, we're in trouble 1029 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,800 there. And and in WA I have to say we 1030 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,280 there was some underperformance at the Golden Grove operation as 1031 01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,880 well. So that was more in our control. 1032 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,840 But you will remember during those during that time you 1033 01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:15,400 mentioned 2021-2022 you got, you got iron ore going gangbusters, 1034 01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,600 you've got nickel going very well, you've got a lithium about 1035 01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,560 to start and you've got gold going very well. 1036 01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:27,720 So WA was was hot the trot in terms of the market for, you 1037 01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,640 know, development activities, mining activities, fly in, fly 1038 01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,360 out people and so on. So, so with a seat that single 1039 01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:42,680 operation there in the West, you know, our, our costs were up and 1040 01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,280 our volumes were down. So therefore, but we've we've 1041 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:51,800 recovered brilliantly since then and now in much better shape at 1042 01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:56,160 golden growth and a very good plan for Capricorn cop. 1043 01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:00,800 So bit of a long story there, Jonas, about 29 medals, but 1044 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,800 those two Australian operations and so on back on back on solid 1045 01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:11,880 ground and and footing and and the Chilean acid really not a 1046 01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:17,640 lot has happened at the smaller end of town there with with Red 1047 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,280 Hill. So to, to go to Europe just 1048 01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,400 briefly, W Cumbria Coal, W Cumbria Mining is a company 1049 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,760 you're involved with as well that's had a sort of back and 1050 01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,360 forth, back and forth with the, the government there. 1051 01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,800 And you know, a pretty big ruling has come out just 1052 01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,880 recently there. Not so specific to that, but how 1053 01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:39,680 do you think about mining in Europe? 1054 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,120 Are you, you know, very cautious of going, Obviously you got 1055 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,120 interests in other parts of Europe at the moment, but has 1056 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,640 that kind of put the the nail in the coffin for how you think 1057 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,880 about allocating money in that kind of part of the world? 1058 01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,920 Well, it hasn't put the nail in, in the coffin or obviously 1059 01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:02,360 always open to, you know, opportunities and wherever they 1060 01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,040 are. And you have to roll with the, 1061 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,320 the punches, of course. And at the end of the day, 1062 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,160 you've got to follow the regulator. 1063 01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:13,760 As I say, we, we, we, we do three things. 1064 01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,160 You know, we're business people. So we follow the market, we 1065 01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,200 follow the follow the money, follow the follow the trends. 1066 01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,760 We follow the regulator because without doing that, you can't do 1067 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,320 anything very much and you follow best international 1068 01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:27,760 practise. That's what that's where you 1069 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,600 must have that beacon in the north. 1070 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,120 You must follow those things. OK. 1071 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:35,920 Now within that, within that, when you look at a, a project, 1072 01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,200 wherever it is, whether it's in the UK or whether it's in 1073 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:44,680 Eastern Europe, Western Europe and Spain, we're in country or 1074 01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:49,880 Africa, you know, or the sands, you know, wherever you are, you 1075 01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:54,000 will always look at well, what are the tonnes, what's the 1076 01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:58,720 grade, what's the quality, what's the process and what's 1077 01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:03,640 the life, what's the cost? What's the upside? 1078 01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,680 Is it a stable and secure domain? 1079 01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,440 Can we operate here and can you get out? 1080 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,840 In other words, can you exit? So we talk about a stable and 1081 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:17,960 secure domain. That's really the question. 1082 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,760 What's the, what are the country risk type factors here? 1083 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,240 Is that the national government is the provincial government. 1084 01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,360 How to how to what are the rules and what are the regulations? 1085 01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,520 What about the workforce? What about the infrastructure? 1086 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:33,120 What about your social licence? Can you obtain, retain and 1087 01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,920 sustain your social licence? Because without that you might 1088 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,240 as well not show up anywhere, you know? 1089 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,720 So you've got to be, you've got to be convinced that you can 1090 01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:47,920 actually embed yourself with those local communities, earn 1091 01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,520 their trust, earn their confidence, earn their support 1092 01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:56,280 and earn their cooperation. And so they are the key factors. 1093 01:04:58,120 --> 01:04:59,680 Very, very comprehensive. I like it. 1094 01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,640 So to, to round out the conversation, I want to speak 1095 01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:05,880 about a few more sort of contemporary and forward looking 1096 01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,960 aspects of mining, specifically in Australia. 1097 01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,480 So as we touched on before we started recording today, 1098 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,680 obviously a big event sort of happened in, in NSW, perhaps it 1099 01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,440 wasn't acknowledged how big you know, in the, in the happening 1100 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,440 of Earth as it has with the ramifications of that. 1101 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,520 Obviously I'm speaking about Mcfillanys and there's been a 1102 01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,680 few other sort of similar ish decisions that have been made. 1103 01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,720 If you could speak with the the sort of government officials, 1104 01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:40,520 what, what's the sort of the line of thinking you would tell 1105 01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:41,560 them? Yes. 1106 01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,320 Well, look and again, I don't have the, I don't have the 1107 01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,480 detail of of some of those things, but but the, but the 1108 01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,960 signals have obviously been fairly negative. 1109 01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,840 You'd have to say about that particularly when you go through 1110 01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:00,400 a long process. We, we actually don't mind the 1111 01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:05,040 industry understands and doesn't mind going through a lengthy 1112 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,120 process, whether whether it's to do with environmental impact 1113 01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,120 assessment, whether it's to do with heritage assessments. 1114 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,040 You know, you, you've got to follow the regular, you've got 1115 01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:18,120 to do your work well. And, and Australia is absolutely 1116 01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,640 outstanding at having the people and the consultants and the 1117 01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,760 firms and so on to be able to do that. 1118 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:28,600 We, we, we do that better in Australia than anywhere in the 1119 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,680 world. And that's why anywhere you go, 1120 01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,320 it doesn't matter whether it's the rainforest of North Sumatra 1121 01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:37,520 or the Atacama Desert in, in Peru, you'll find an Aussie, you 1122 01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,960 know, mining engineer or environmental scientist there 1123 01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,360 because we do our work really, really well. 1124 01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,600 What you, what you don't want, what you prefer not to have are 1125 01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:49,800 surprises. In other words, get to the end 1126 01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,840 of all of that because a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of 1127 01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:56,880 effort and find that you get knocked out for something rather 1128 01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,920 and you're not able to redress. So, so how does, how does that 1129 01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,200 work? Well, you know, you've actually 1130 01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:07,200 got to stay close, stay in touch, stay close with all of 1131 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:10,680 those people, all of those stakeholders during that period 1132 01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:15,120 to try and be be sure that there are no surprises, Jonas, at the 1133 01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,760 end that that's, that's that's what you don't want. 1134 01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,320 The regulatory regime in Australia is about as good as it 1135 01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,120 gets in terms of the world. You want to see some of the 1136 01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:27,440 regimes in other, in other places type of thing. 1137 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,880 But it doesn't mean that you won't have glitches and it 1138 01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:34,560 doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement in those 1139 01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:35,680 things. And we're talking with 1140 01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:41,000 governments and regulators, state, federal and local all the 1141 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,480 time, all the time. And you saw the other day three 1142 01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,960 poll operations in NSW got their, got their extension 1143 01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:53,160 permits and so on. So, you know, and, and our, our, 1144 01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,200 our business at Ravenswood always been able to get those 1145 01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:58,920 permits. Our business at Golden Grove 1146 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,480 always been able. It doesn't mean it's not, you 1147 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,200 know, lots of hard work and time and so on and so forth. 1148 01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,600 But you're always, generally speaking, able to get it because 1149 01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,640 they tend to be, you know, like minded people, you know, because 1150 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:14,800 it's because it's a mining country. 1151 01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,200 And because most people in Australia, as you know, are 1152 01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:22,319 highly supportive of mining. They actually understand what 1153 01:08:22,399 --> 01:08:26,640 what mining per SE and the whole mining services area and all of 1154 01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,200 those things that sort of depend on it and hang off. 1155 01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,520 It does for the country and will continue to do. 1156 01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:34,880 And we're going to continue to be busy, Janice. 1157 01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,160 That's, that's the, that really is the point about the, about 1158 01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,359 the future here. In terms of the next 10 years, 1159 01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:45,040 20 years, 30 years, we're going to continue to be busy because 1160 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,960 there's long strong demand for all of the commodities that 1161 01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:53,120 we've just been talking about and the energy transition has 1162 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,920 given a boost to them. That said, it it still does 1163 01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:03,160 have, you know, perceived negative impacts on investing in 1164 01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,600 mining globally. You know, Australia is seen as 1165 01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,000 one of the the sort of safer jurisdictions. 1166 01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,000 Now you, you could kind of argue that less people in the space 1167 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,680 makes more opportunity for the EMR capital. 1168 01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,560 But ultimately we, we do need a lot of money coming in to 1169 01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,000 develop a lot of these assets. You know, you mentioned before 1170 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,080 Chile, some of these assets require a phenomenal amount of 1171 01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:25,520 money all over the sort of world. 1172 01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:29,720 Does part of it concern you at all that it might put off 1173 01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,840 capital that's sort of needed to develop these assets? 1174 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:35,600 Definitely. So there's no question about 1175 01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:37,720 that. The the concerning, you know, 1176 01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,840 you regulations are increasing and we understand that in terms 1177 01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:46,439 of population increasing, we understand that in terms of you 1178 01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:48,760 know. People's, people's expectations 1179 01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:53,120 are are increasing, if you like, all of the time, as I say, we, 1180 01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,560 we never mind actually going through the work and responding 1181 01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,120 to all of those sorts of things. It just it just takes. 1182 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:02,680 Takes longer it's and it's a bit harder. 1183 01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,280 So it takes longer to get permitted and so on and so 1184 01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:05,880 forth. OK. 1185 01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:07,120 So we're going to have to do that. 1186 01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:09,640 Doesn't matter whether you're here by the way or in in 1187 01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,520 Indonesia or Chile or or China. For that matter. 1188 01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,360 It's just going to simply take you longer to get permitted. 1189 01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:18,880 So we're happy to put up with that. 1190 01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,920 So, So what it makes you do of course is focus on those, those 1191 01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,520 commodities that that you know are already in some form of 1192 01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,800 short supply, if you like, or challenges to supply because 1193 01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,800 there are more challenges on the way. 1194 01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:40,360 And that's why we like very much copper, we like very much gold, 1195 01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:47,120 we like other base metals and we like metallurgical coal because 1196 01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:50,600 there's no substitute for that in the in the steel industry. 1197 01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,240 And we do like the fertiliser space too, expanding 1198 01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:58,680 populations, increasing diets and and so on. 1199 01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:02,160 So there'll be good strong demand there. 1200 01:11:02,440 --> 01:11:05,080 So, so does it. So your question was, well, does 1201 01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:09,000 it mean that you go to, you're always looking at other places, 1202 01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,520 always looking whether it's Australia or Africa or South 1203 01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,040 America, and so always looking at opportunities there. 1204 01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,200 Canada, we're looking at a number of opportunities in 1205 01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,360 Canada at the moment. What do you want? 1206 01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:24,960 You want you want access to land, you want access to those 1207 01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,440 projects, you want access to people and you must have access 1208 01:11:28,440 --> 01:11:32,600 to capital And and you know, whether it's the the public 1209 01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,160 markets and there's no better public market for capital, 1210 01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:39,560 particularly for the smaller guys than the than Australia, 1211 01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,840 because, you know, the ASX terrific platform, world class 1212 01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,720 platform, doesn't doesn't mean it doesn't have as nuances 1213 01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:53,480 either, so to speak, but a but a very good proven platform and 1214 01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:58,040 and has and has actually been very good over the past 1015, 1215 01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,760 thirty years in terms of being able to access capital. 1216 01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,400 But you also must be able to access the debt markets. 1217 01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,480 And and that's where some of them are sort of open and close. 1218 01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:11,320 Some banks are saying, well, we won't lend to this, won't lend 1219 01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:14,360 to that or out of mining, so on. So that's always a bit of a 1220 01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:19,120 disappointment, Jonas, when when those markets actually close to 1221 01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:22,200 you. But you know, it just makes you 1222 01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:24,280 go a bit harder with those that are open. 1223 01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:27,680 So you mentioned the the commodities you're interested in 1224 01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,800 last question out of out of the four, you know, potash, cooking 1225 01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:35,560 coal, gold and copper, what is the the one you'd pick if you 1226 01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:39,840 could just for a say fund for VMR capital, there could be one 1227 01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,080 focus. Copper and gold. 1228 01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,320 So the the single, the single commodity copper and gold. 1229 01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:48,480 They come together at times so it works. 1230 01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,680 Copper is red gold, of course. So now look, I, I think copper 1231 01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,320 as an industrial metal, you, you can, you can actually in a way 1232 01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:02,560 prices in terms of, you know, long strong demand challenges to 1233 01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:06,640 supply great diversity of, of demand and getting a boost from 1234 01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:10,720 the energy transition and as getting a boost from AI, you 1235 01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:12,600 know, just think of those data centres. 1236 01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:14,880 Think, think of the. Of of of the. 1237 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:19,640 Power of the energy, there's got to go into AI and everything 1238 01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,600 needs everything needs copper one one way or another. 1239 01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:26,040 So that that's definitely a pick. 1240 01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:30,200 But never forget gold. In fact, we think that gold 1241 01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:35,880 we're we're looking to see gold Jonas as a critical metal. 1242 01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,040 We think it's critical that everybody should have some in 1243 01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:42,600 their portfolio. Beautiful, thanks for sharing 1244 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,240 your insights, your experience and your time. 1245 01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:47,200 Bye. It's lovely to be here. 1246 01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,640 Bloody great work JD, very insightful. 1247 01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:52,000 All the thanks to. Journey. 1248 01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:54,440 Owen for for coming on. What a journey it was indeed, 1249 01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:56,960 mate. He wouldn't have come on if MMS 1250 01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:58,560 weren't here. Cornerstone Sponsor. 1251 01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:00,320 No, and I think. He actually said that. 1252 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,200 You could say the exact same for Grounded. 1253 01:14:02,440 --> 01:14:03,800 Yeah. Cross boundary Energy. 1254 01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,280 Sandvik ground Support. CRE Insurance, Greenland's 1255 01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,880 Equipment. K Drill, Australian earthworks 1256 01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:13,280 and haulage you could say the same. 1257 01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,760 For Spark you could say the same. 1258 01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,800 For all of them. And MTTS as well. 1259 01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,440 We can't even get a bit out there. 1260 01:14:18,440 --> 01:14:20,400 Absolutely better. Absolute gurus. 1261 01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,160 Thank you very much for that, JD. 1262 01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:23,960 Thanks Alan. And who to room? 1263 01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,120 Money miners enjoy the weekend. Have a great weekend money 1264 01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:29,680 miners. Information contained in this 1265 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,440 episode of Money of Mine is of general nature only and does not 1266 01:14:32,440 --> 01:14:35,080 take into account the objectives, financial situation 1267 01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,120 or needs of any particular person. 1268 01:14:37,440 --> 01:14:40,480 Before making any investment decision, you should consult 1269 01:14:40,480 --> 01:14:43,520 with your financial advisor and consider how appropriate the 1270 01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:47,200 advice is to your objectives, financial situation and needs.