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Right on money miners. 
End of the year is approaching 

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and the recaps are coming in 
great. 

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And tell you what, this one's a 
bloody We've pulled an absolute 

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legend out of the journalism 
industry. 

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This is awesome. 
It helped that on you very well,

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Jenny. 
Jennifer Hewitt from the 

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Australian Financial Reviews, 
that illustrious career as a 

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columnist in multiple media 
organisations. 

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Bloody good friend of mine, like
she's begging me to come on but 

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not squeezed her in and it was a
chase. 

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She knows a shit wealth. 
Of knowledge. 

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I've got to admit I was very 
surprised at your friends after 

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meeting her like. 
Different, different walks of 

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life. 
Yeah. 

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Expectations were high and, you 
know, they were exceeded. 

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It's a cracking chat so. 
Yeah, so pretty like everything 

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on politics, energy, lot on 
energy in in Australia, China, 

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Trump. 
Resource policy, everything. 

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Yeah. 
Super, super fascinating chat. 

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Oh. 
I was, it was, I could, I reckon

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if we kept going we could have 
bird her up like. 

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Alright. 
Because on our age, you know, 

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doesn't doesn't step not 
backwards in coming forward. 

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Got some good opinions. 
I loved it. 

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Definitely so close to 
Christmas, but 13 days not as 

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close to in Darba. 
But yeah, it's getting closer 

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every day. 
Getting closer every day. 

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Can't wait. 
We're pumped. 

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We're going to go there. 
Yeah, mate, I'm excited for 

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that. 
That's going to be a highlight 

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of next year. 
But yeah, in the interim, going 

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to look forward to listening to 
to Jenny on this party. 

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But one thing we didn't mention 
in this I can't believe I 

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completely forgot to even bring 
it up. 

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Do you remember I was telling 
you about that famous saying at 

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Daisy Milano? 
Get salt Bush to do it. 

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OK? 
I don't know. 

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Surprised Jenny didn't mention. 
It it's in the folklore there, 

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hey? 
I just read like there was the 

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shittest job even if the Danny 
was broken. 

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So oh, that's a salt Bush job. 
Salt Bush contracting that is 

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they're contractors. 
They will do anything not move 

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and rock from A to B with these 
beautiful haul trucks. 

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I'll show here only one aspect, 
contractors. 

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They will do anything on your 
mind site. 

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Go ahead. 
And run for a brick wall for. 

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You give yourself an early 
Christmas present and. 

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Just. 
Have this fleet that I'll bring 

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up right now go on across your 
countryside, moving rock from A 

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to B and making new money via 
salt Bush contracting. 

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Could not be easier. 
Details are in the show notes. 

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They're busy. 
Merry Christmas, When your kids 

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ask you dad, mum what do you 
want for Christmas, just reply 

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and say I want salt Bush 
contracting to do something for 

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me to do it for. 
Me go salt Bush. 

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Can't salt Bush. 
I would say one of my best 

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friends. 
Not just because she's. 

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From the IFR, my great friend 
Jenny Hewitt. 

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The historical University 
connection still talks to me. 

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Welcome to our show, Jenny. 
Pleasure to be. 

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Here, thank you. 
Sorry to interrupt your holiday.

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Well, I know I wasn't expecting 
any less from you, of course. 

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Well. 
After all the years you've been 

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begging me to come on, I thought
I'd finally. 

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Make it. 
I do appreciate it. 

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I do appreciate. 
It make it happen for you so. 

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Maddie, we, we're doing. 
A favour mate because like you 

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know you're, you're bringing her
onto our platform but in the 

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past Jenny brought you onto the 
AFRS platform. 

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That was Bloody Merts, her 
daughter. 

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Who tricked me into doing an 
article about my CFD losses? 

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And I'm like, once it come out, 
I'm like, so am I getting paid 

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for this? 
She's like, no, no, it's a 

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great. 
I've done a lot of attention. 

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I'm like, you stitched me up 
there. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
Just demonstrated how you well, 

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you shouldn't do what you did. 
I think it was a good lesson. 

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Still doing it. 
I'm making a bit of money out of

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them. 
Those days I don't, right? 

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So for those who don't know, the
great Jennifer Hewitt is a 

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columnist for the IFR. 
God, you've been at the Oz. 

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You've let's just say you've 
been doing it. 

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For I've been doing it some 
time. 20 years or so and I'll 

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get in trouble when I'll talk 
about how long you've been 

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riding for, Jenny. 
But national affairs, you'd say?

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Politics. 
Bit of bit of mining buddy. 

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Just a bit of every. 
Critical minerals, energy, the 

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interplay of all of that. 
International, yeah, everything 

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basically, right, Jack of all. 
Trades. 

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You're warming up all the 
conferences for me, the MC 

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roles, because once you finish 
up, Jenny, I'm going to take 

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over. 
Oh, don't, don't worry, I'll be 

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recommending you. 
Right. 

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Let's let's let's take it away. 
Should we start with energy 

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policy? 
Now, we we generally try and 

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steer clear of, of politics 
because it can be, you know, 

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yeah, you can alienate a good 
bit of the audience. 

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But I think this conversation is
going to veer into it 

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specifically as it relates to 
commodities. 

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And I think one of the the 
interesting spots to start this 

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one, Jenny, is the nuclear 
policy. 

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You've written a bit about this 
over the past year and it's 

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become a real flashpoint between
the Coalition and the Labor 

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Party. 
So from from your perspective, 

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you know, you, you live in 
Sydney and you're right from 

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about these topics from a bit of
a different lens to what we see 

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here in Perth. 
But how much of A sort of hot 

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rod is this at the minute and 
what sort of role do you think 

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it's going to play over the next
year in Australia? 

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Oh, I think the energy policy is
going to be huge. 

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And the reason the energy policy
is going to be huge is of 

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course, the fact that the, it's,
so the energy market at the 

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moment is extremely 
dysfunctional, showing years and

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years and years of, you know, 
crazy policies and, and refusal 

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to accept reality and things. 
So you've got the coalition's 

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nuclear policy, which I think 
they're going to announce a few 

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more details quite shortly 
before Christmas, possibly this 

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week, I think. 
But but as well as that, you've 

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got the renewables policy, which
the federal government has and 

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that relies obviously on the 
great expansion of renewables. 

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But what they're kind of 
neglected for some time until 

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reality kind of came and hit 
them in the head was that the 

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you need firming power, whether 
it's gas, whether it's hydro, 

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whether it's batteries. 
And basically they neglected 

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gas. 
They just, Chris Bowen, the 

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energy minister, could hardly 
say the word for at least the 

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first year. 
And then at the same time you've

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got state governments like NSW 
and Victoria, particularly 

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Victoria, where they just 
refused to acknowledge that they

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would need gas development as 
well. 

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So anyway, the result is you've 
got coal fired power stations 

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which are, you know, obviously 
ageing, but also not only that 

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they're kind of uneconomic to 
run. 

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And so the investment to even 
keep them going hasn't been 

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there. 
And so like a couple of weeks 

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ago, we we're in this ludicrous 
position where the the NSW 

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Premier is begging, begging 
citizens to turn off their dish,

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not turn on their dishwashers or
air conditioning after 3 

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o'clock. 
Bloody hell. 

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Shocking for a for a country 
like Australia with the the 

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abundance that we have that we 
kind of get to this point. 

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Do do you see a big change in in
gas? 

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Have we reached that tipping 
point now and do you expect the,

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you know, incumbent government 
to really change their tone 

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coming into an election in the 
in the next half year now? 

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Well, they've changed their 
tone, but, but of course it's 

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not as though you can say, oh 
look, we've changed our tone on 

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gas and therefore it'll be all 
this gas that's suddenly 

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available. 
I mean, and, and, and, and the 

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other issue is that NSW and 
Victoria have, state governments

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have just refused basically to 
extend or, or allow development 

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of gas for years and years and 
years. 

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And so therefore there is a kind
of a great shortage. 

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So it has, you know, a lot of it
comes from Queensland, maybe 

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from SA, but it's a very fragile
rickety system. 

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And just because you've changed 
your tone doesn't mean that 

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there's going to be a sudden, 
you know, availability, easy 

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supply of gas. 
Where are they going to put the 

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plants over there? 
Are they proposing to put them 

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in anywhere? 
Well, gas forward points. 

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Well, they've got, you know, a 
couple that are, you know, 

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underway, but it won't be nearly
enough. 

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And then there's this whole 
thing about the LNG import 

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terminals where you've. 
Got Bay in the middle Middle 

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East. 
Well, of course, you know, 

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there's arguments about where 
they, you know, the 

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environmental arguments about 
whether they should be allowed. 

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But I think the most really the 
advanced one, most advanced is, 

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is Andrew Forrest's at Port 
Kembla. 

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Surprise, surprise, surprise. 
But you know, even then they 

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still haven't got contracts for 
a lot of the gas, the squadron 

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00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,080
energy that about long term 
contracts. 

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So like, I just think it's so 
uncertain and it all relies on 

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the fact that everything kind of
keeps in balance. 

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And also that if there are kind 
of hot days or or a wind drought

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or something that that industry 
winds back dramatically on its 

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use of of power, which doesn't 
seem to be a particularly 

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00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,200
sensible way to run energy 
policy. 

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You know, in the twenty 20s. 
Let's face it not. 

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In the biggest city in the 
country. 

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No, but also the in terms of 
nuclear energy and of course, 

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even at best, at best what the 
coalition is talking about is 

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that you're beginning to 
beginning to get gas. 

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I'm sorry, nuclear energy 
possibly in the mid twenty 30s, 

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not really going getting going 
to the twenty 40s. 

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What our problem is the next 
decade, particularly. 

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It's also a a change in tone 
from privatisation of, of energy

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in Australia right to a, a 
stance where you know, these 7 

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reactors would be built, built 
by the government, or at least 

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you know, the government having 
a significant role and. 

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00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,240
Well, government owned, 
government owned, government 

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00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:13,840
owned. 
It is a kind of slightly bizarre

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00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,760
thing that you've got the 
coalition saying, yes, yes, 

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00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,160
we'll, we'll, we'll own all 
these, these guests, these, 

195
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:20,600
sorry, these nuclear power 
stations. 

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00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,880
We'll build and construct, build
them and own them. 

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00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,080
That is a very bizarre position.
Will that happen with gas do you

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00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,760
think? 
Well, I think gas. 

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00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,280
It doesn't have to. 
No, it doesn't have to. 

200
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,560
With gas, not as much I think, 
but they've got to have the 

201
00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:38,400
right settings in place to 
allow, you know, gas to, to be 

202
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,040
developed which. 
Means it's reserves, but the 

203
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,560
hold up has been permitting 
these great reserves to actually

204
00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:44,680
even come online. 
Yeah, well, I mean Vic. 

205
00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:47,080
There's a skill set. 
Yeah, and Victoria in particular

206
00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,120
has been like the energy 
minister, they've been there for

207
00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,160
a long time. 
Lily Dambrosio, despite the fact

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00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,280
it's such a gas dependent state.
I mean, as far as she's 

209
00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,760
concerned, gas is anathema. 
And and of course, the hilarious

210
00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,440
thing is they're also, you know,
talk about, talk up their 

211
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,040
environmental credentials. 
Well, because they've refused to

212
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,360
allow any gas development, what 
they use instead is brown coal 

213
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,440
and, you know, the dirtiest fuel
of all. 

214
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:17,280
And they've got a couple of 
secret deals to subsidise the 

215
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,160
continuation of brown coal 
because of this state they're 

216
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,600
in. 
Yeah, the enormous Loy Yang got 

217
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:29,040
got extended and another one in 
the in the Latrobe region there 

218
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,640
as well. 
Just on, you know, continuing on

219
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,760
on coal there for a moment. 
I got over the past couple 

220
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,960
years, we saw a massive tick up 
in in the royalties state based 

221
00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,920
in Queensland as well as NSW. 
Do you do you think that's now 

222
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,840
at a level and do you think that
could be more politicised as a 

223
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,320
as a means for paying for this 
this transition again? 

224
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,160
And you know, that was to the 
uproar of the mining sector in 

225
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,400
particularly in in Queensland, 
where groups like BHB said we're

226
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,120
not putting a dollar more into 
this state. 

227
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,720
Given what you've done, do you 
do you see that being further 

228
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,400
used or have they used that as 
much as they could? 

229
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:04,800
They will. 
The state government in 

230
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,880
Queensland, well they've now got
a new Coalition government 

231
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,760
there, LNP government rather, 
and I can't imagine that they're

232
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,240
going to increase royalties 
anymore. 

233
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,400
I mean basically it just makes 
it too difficult. 

234
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,240
They won't increase them, but 
will they reduce them? 

235
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,240
I'm not sure they will reduce 
them actually, I think in that 

236
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,320
sense, unless they can get a, 
you know, big thing of 

237
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,600
investment from someone like 
BHP, which I'm not sure that 

238
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,000
will be the case because there's
many other issues that would 

239
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:36,320
affect the investment model. 
So I I would doubt that, but 

240
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,200
because they're in such kind of 
dire financial straits or fiscal

241
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,000
straits with their budget. 
Their own state. 

242
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:43,800
Yeah, situation first. 
Yeah, so. 

243
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,400
Do you think they're going to be
because uranium mornings, the 

244
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,280
other one in Queensland as well 
that I think is there the 

245
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,360
incumbent LMP, are they looking 
a bit more pro for mining, a 

246
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,800
little bit less red tape maybe? 
Well, maybe a bit less, bit less

247
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,600
red tape. 
I mean, you, you, that's 

248
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,240
certainly their, their 
inclination. 

249
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,280
Of course, whether or not how 
that develops is another matter.

250
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,720
I mean, you've always got to 
have, you know, there's so many 

251
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,760
kind of environmental rules 
these days. 

252
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,760
So they'll they'll try that, but
without being too radical 

253
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,040
because I think that's going to 
be an issue. 

254
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,880
But clearly that's that's where 
they'd like to go a bit more. 

255
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,720
Yeah, yeah, well, we're just, 
we're just talking to our great 

256
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,600
friends at iMac and talk about 
people that know everything 

257
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,320
about native title and heritage 
and holy snap and duck shit 

258
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,600
there is some. 
Oh, you beat your head against 

259
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,200
the wall. 
Yeah, and I'm not even running 

260
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,200
the companies. 
Well, it's, I mean, it's very, 

261
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,600
it's very hard to to open a mine
anywhere. 

262
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,280
Yeah, but it's other than maybe 
somewhere in Africa, but it's 

263
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,360
it's. 
Although it just gets taken off 

264
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,240
you later on. 
Yes, Well, that's that, of 

265
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:55,800
course, I mean, but that's a big
issue. 

266
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,960
I mean, but in Australia, it's 
become more and more difficult 

267
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,560
to open a mind anywhere. 
And I don't think that's going 

268
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,280
to change. 
And in terms of the delays and 

269
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,800
everything, and of course, 
that's one of the things that is

270
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,640
always going to be an issue 
because people suddenly kind of 

271
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,840
go, oh, wow, I think we really 
need this now. 

272
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,120
And you're talking 10-15 years 
before you begin to see first 

273
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,400
production at best. 
When, when the the Regis 

274
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,840
decision come over about 
Mcfillimy's like obviously we're

275
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,600
in, we're in the mining state 
and like it's, it's, you know, 

276
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,120
big news for us and like we talk
about it everyday. 

277
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,960
But like in Sydney and 
Melbourne, like what's the does 

278
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,200
the, is the general public that 
aware of what goes on in mining 

279
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,320
and and that sort of stuff 
specifically whether it's in NSW

280
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,640
or not, what's the vibe like 
over there? 

281
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,400
Well, I think for anybody who's 
in the mining industry in those 

282
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,040
states, obviously it's huge. 
But I think it's a very, very 

283
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,360
different vibe in NSW and 
Victoria. 

284
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:56,080
It's, you know, it's a bit as, 
you know, like like little kids 

285
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,240
when, when you get a quarter 
milk and they think the milk 

286
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,320
comes from the, the supermarket.
You know, I think a lot of 

287
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,560
people in New South Wales and 
Victoria actually forget where 

288
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,440
things come from. 
So I think the Mcfillimmie's 

289
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,040
decision was, was a very big 
issue for anybody who's 

290
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,440
interested in mining and 
understands what's going on. 

291
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:19,080
And it also for regional areas. 
But in terms of the city and, 

292
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,120
you know, most people in Sydney 
and Melbourne, I don't think 

293
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,120
they would have heard of it or 
paid much attention. 

294
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,400
What are the extent they did 
they think, Oh, well, that's you

295
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,320
know, that's a good idea. 
Yeah, what are they interested 

296
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,200
in? 
Mostly over there Rugby league 

297
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,360
poker machines. 
I mean, it's, it's the, it's the

298
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,840
West world in a, in a microcosm,
right? 

299
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,440
Yeah. 
What's the US opened a few mines

300
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,160
in the past few decades and 
Europe's barely, barely got an 

301
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,160
operation. 
And, you know, there's protests 

302
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,920
in the street when you open a, 
when you want to open one 

303
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,200
lithium mine or something like 
that. 

304
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,800
So it's kind of reflective of of
where we are as a society. 

305
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,800
Yeah, that's like this kind of 
gap between what's needed, yeah 

306
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,200
and what people want. 
And, and I mean, I did use to 

307
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,840
think it was kind of quite 
humorous was when for a, you 

308
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,440
know, a couple of years ago, 
everybody was talking about 

309
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,520
green metals and, and people 
didn't really understand what it

310
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,600
meant, but they thought, oh, 
that's got to do with the energy

311
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,040
transition. 
So therefore, that's fine. 

312
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,840
That's a kind of a different 
form of mining, as if they'd 

313
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,520
never seen a lithium mine or 
something. 

314
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,880
It was very weird. 
Bloody dash, that'll find you 

315
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,440
some of that green metal. 
If you want to find green metal.

316
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,760
If you want to make green metal.
The GF is champions. 

317
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:26,920
Oh well, won't they mate? 
But. 

318
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,040
Actually mate GF is look there 
is green on the page when you 

319
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,040
get the the GF is data. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

320
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,440
There you go. 
And you gotta, I'm pretty sure 

321
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,200
Dash sort of the only company 
that are doing geofis in the 

322
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,080
country at the moment. 
Yeah, they put it on the 

323
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:41,640
decline. 
Yeah, Mike. 

324
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,640
And Speaking of Christmas 
presents, like they've already 

325
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,960
got 8 gravity crews working in 
WA at the moment. 

326
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,080
They've got an office in the 
heart of WA, Kalgoorlie. 

327
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,760
Impressive mate. 
They get mate, if you ring them 

328
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,480
up and say heard about your 
money and mine, they are going 

329
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,400
to give free mobilisation for 
any new WA contracts for 

330
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:08,000
December, January free that is 
ho ho ho merry Daish SAT you 

331
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,080
don't. 
Give yourself a Christmas 

332
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,640
present. 
They're called Daish SAT. 

333
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,160
Bye Did. 
I say they've got 8 gravity 

334
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,120
crews working in WA. 
And might they're still giving 

335
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,600
away ship for free? 
That is, that is impressive. 

336
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,440
That's a Daish. 
You are the opposite of the 

337
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,880
Grinch you are saying. 
Decades of experience as well. 

338
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,480
He's just Santa he's he's and 
not and what not one of those 

339
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,400
drunk Sanders that are in the 
shopping centres like the legit 

340
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,120
centre. 
But mate, David, but as we said,

341
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,320
gravity magnetics, and that's 
from ground drone or helicopter 

342
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,240
radio metrics, passive seismic, 
soul sampling, mate, anything 

343
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,440
before you wanna drill a fucking
hole, pretty much, Dash, that 

344
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,640
will tell you where to put the 
hole. 

345
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,600
Free mobilisation. 
What are you waiting for? 

346
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,920
Oh. 
What are you waiting for right 

347
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:52,720
now? 
Let's get back into it. 

348
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,880
Sorry to interrupt. 
Yeah. 

349
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,760
What did you you heard any 
feedback of the what was it? 

350
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,760
The Nuclear nuclear Energy 
review that just happened in 

351
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,880
Canberra last week. 
Well, of course the the 

352
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,000
coalition is saying that's a 
completely biassed, you know, 

353
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,680
political thing because they 
talked about how much it was 

354
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,520
going to cost. 
And they said, you know, 

355
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,400
renewable energy with firming 
was still much cheaper than 

356
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,240
nuclear power. 
And that may well be the case, 

357
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:26,000
but I probably is the case. 
But I don't think that the 

358
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,000
government's argument that 
renewables and is going to be, 

359
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,040
you know, it's obviously 
cheaper. 

360
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,040
Remember, I don't know, you 
probably don't remember. 

361
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,360
But in the last election 
campaign, they were saying, 

362
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,240
well, of course it's cheaper 
because, you know, solar, the 

363
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,720
sun's free, wind's free, you'll,
your power bills are going to go

364
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,000
down. 
And nobody was actually 

365
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,160
acknowledging that with, with 
the cost of all the transmission

366
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,640
and, and, and converting solar 
and wind power is actually 

367
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,800
incredibly expensive. 
And, and so no matter what 

368
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,280
happens, I don't know how much, 
but we're all going to be facing

369
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,840
much higher power bills. 
And your only hope is really 

370
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,320
that, you know, there'll be 
technological advances that'll 

371
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,600
make batteries kind of somewhat 
cheaper, certainly hydropower, I

372
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,440
think in Australia, like all the
dreams of that if you just look 

373
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,440
at Snowy, yeah, I mean, it's, 
it's just a disaster really in 

374
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,160
terms of the cost of that. 
So I I feel. 

375
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:19,560
That that's the fear of the 
government. 

376
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,160
No, not working, won't be 
working till for years. 

377
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,960
Yeah, right. 
And it's, I think it's, you 

378
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,280
know, the original cost and 
Malcolm Turnbull put it up was 

379
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,680
like $2 billion. 
I mean, it's now it's. 

380
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,080
At 12 is. 12 and counting, yeah,
and nowhere near finished. 

381
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,200
And that doesn't include the 
transmission lines, yeah. 

382
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,640
Yeah, it was a similar issue to 
to wood Smith in some ways to 

383
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,840
rotating boar head to stop 
working. 

384
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,120
The geotech wasn't done 
properly. 

385
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,440
And yeah, all of a sudden, you 
know, you can't, you know, like 

386
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,160
he can't sink this shaft any any
further, you know? 

387
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,920
Yeah. 
We're Speaking of sort of CapEx 

388
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,800
blowouts and and government 
money. 

389
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,320
We should talk about any other. 
So this you know popped up in 

390
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,120
the headlines just earlier this 
week. 

391
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,760
Government gone from 1.2 and a 
bit to to 1.6 and we'll see if 

392
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,000
that's a kind of pit stop on the
way. 

393
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,760
What, what do you kind of make 
of this and the the broader sort

394
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,440
of push for these, you know, 
very specific rare earth 

395
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,040
investments by the government? 
Well, of course, this was the, 

396
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,920
the 1st $1.2 billion came up at 
the dying days of the Morrison 

397
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,960
government. 
Yeah. 

398
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,320
And so they decided to kind of 
go ahead with that. 

399
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,400
And, but kind of in a sense that
was all the kind of gung, gung 

400
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,880
ho. 
This is our future. 

401
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000
You know, we've, we've said, oh,
we're no longer going to be 

402
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:40,640
reliant on, on minerals like 
like iron ore or coal. 

403
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,960
Well, there's a whole new future
here in, in, in critical 

404
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,240
minerals and rare earths and 
things. 

405
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,360
And I don't think people quite 
understood how complicated this 

406
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,640
was. 
And in a sense, incredibly even 

407
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,560
more expensive, but without the 
scale. 

408
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,440
And so I so, but, but they had 
them kind of over a barrel, I 

409
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,840
think with the government, 
because they could say, well, 

410
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,880
you know, we've got the $1.2 
billion. 

411
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,520
We can't actually go any further
unless you give us more money. 

412
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,280
And and you've seen that in a 
few instances. 

413
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,760
I'm not sure, you know, really 
how effective that will be. 

414
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,040
Clearly there's a whole lot of 
talk about supply chains and 

415
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,320
diversifying away from China 
and, and this is a, you know, an

416
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,240
option for Australia and it's 
going to be all these kind of 

417
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,840
great possibilities, but I'm not
sure about the economics of any 

418
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,960
of it really at the moment. 
And our unfortunate success in 

419
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,760
downstream processing of light, 
it's probably not the best as a 

420
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,160
country. 
Lack of success? 

421
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,800
Yeah. 
Well, yeah, that's right. 

422
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,880
I mean because it's. 
I wish it was. 

423
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,760
Yeah, but like, but again, it, 
it was that thing. 

424
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,400
It's a bit like the whole dream 
of, you know, renewables, but 

425
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,160
even more complicated because 
it, it sounds like a great 

426
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,960
vision. 
Oh, we've got all this natural, 

427
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,640
natural resources here. 
We'll just kind of make use of 

428
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,240
them and it makes more sense. 
And, and they're whether it was 

429
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,320
Roger Cook or Anthony Albanese, 
they're they're talking about, 

430
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,200
oh, we're gonna be this great, 
you know, battery manufacturer. 

431
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,480
And and I don't think anybody 
had any understanding of how 

432
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,400
complicated it was, how what a 
protracted process it was, what 

433
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,760
skills you were needed and also 
how expensive it would be. 

434
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,800
We want to get paid too much in 
Australia. 

435
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,680
Well, we can't. 
You can't compete. 

436
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,560
Well, in that sense, it's very, 
very hard to compete. 

437
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,280
And the only reason that you 
could compete if people were 

438
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,720
willing to pay more and have 
that kind of premium. 

439
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,280
And, and maybe in some cases 
over time that will happen, but 

440
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,000
at the moment there's not much 
evidence of that. 

441
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,200
Isn't that like to the extent 
Australia's been a tremendously 

442
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,240
rich country over the last 
couple of decades, been driven 

443
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,320
by like selling our raw 
materials to China and now what 

444
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,360
we want to, we think we can, we 
can produce stuff to have like 

445
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,520
independent supply chains from 
China. 

446
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,000
Like it's an absurd proposition 
that to think that we don't need

447
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,080
each other. 
Yeah, well, that is a kind of an

448
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:01,080
absurd proposition, but it is 
also, you know, real that 

449
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:04,320
China's China's behaviour has 
become much more aggressive and 

450
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,440
much more threatening to 
stability, regional stability 

451
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,920
over over that same period. 
And so it's not surprising that 

452
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,440
people are going well. 
Is this, is this such a great 

453
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,760
idea? 
I mean, the fact is that China's

454
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,760
ability to dominate processing 
everybody else kind of missed 

455
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,800
the boat a bit, including the 
US, obviously. 

456
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,000
So I'm look, it's a really, it's
a devilish problem, but I do 

457
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,520
think you would have to be 
concerned about the fact that 

458
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,000
China's, China's ability to turn
this on and off less to do with 

459
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,400
Australia and more to do with 
its own kind of geopolitical 

460
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,680
interests and the US and the 
tension there. 

461
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,240
And I think you've already seen 
it because the US has now under 

462
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,000
the Biden administration in, you
know, heavens knows what's going

463
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,840
to happen under the Trump 
administration. 

464
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,320
But under the Biden 
administration, they've just put

465
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,080
some more restrictions ON 
Semiconductor, you know, aspects

466
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,240
of the semiconductor industry 
and who can do business with 

467
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,640
Chinese companies. 
And China has already retaliated

468
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,880
with some of the greater bans 
and restrictions on supplying 

469
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,360
some of the rare earths like 
gallium. 

470
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,960
So it's going to be, you know, 
it's a very tense period, but 

471
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,040
the so, but the so you 
understand the appeal, the 

472
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,520
intellectual appeal of having 
alternative supply chains, but 

473
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,680
the business and commercial 
aspects as well as the kind of 

474
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,080
physical aspects still to be 
worked out, putting it mildly. 

475
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,680
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm concerned 
that, you know, we'll be sitting

476
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,920
here 8 years from now and any 
other will be $5 billion of 

477
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000
taxpayer money lit up with zero 
return. 

478
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,080
Yeah. 
And we all saw the writing on 

479
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:48,280
the world. 
Well, you know, that's the 

480
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,480
concern I have. 
Yeah, no, I, well, I think 

481
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,760
that's, that's a very real 
concern. 

482
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,200
But I guess you then you have to
say, all right, well, what's 

483
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,960
your return if you don't put 
money in and you just say, well,

484
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,480
we just won't do any of this 
because there's no, there's no 

485
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,000
other way. 
It's going to be commercial. 

486
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,400
There's two, I think it's two 
alternatives like 1 is, yeah, 

487
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,920
focus on massive energy 
abundance in a lot of ways, like

488
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,600
how we're going to have 
competitive downstream in any 

489
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,440
way, shape or form with the with
the status quo. 

490
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,680
The other one is, yeah, is is, 
you know, special economic zone 

491
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,680
or integrated like industrial 
parks that have tax concessions 

492
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,920
which encourage private 
investment and then allow the 

493
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,240
private sector to come up with 
its own investment thesis model,

494
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,240
its own returns. 
And instead of the kind of 

495
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,360
government saying you're, 
you're, you're the person that 

496
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,080
can do this best. 
But we'll keep keep tipping up 

497
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,840
as you have blowouts, which will
definitely happen. 

498
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,600
Yes, well, I think that's right.
I mean, Australia, but WA in 

499
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,880
particular has, is promoting, 
you know, its ability to set up 

500
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,120
industrial parks and things like
that. 

501
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:56,360
And you've obviously got banana 
and then they've got a new, new 

502
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:57,800
ones planned, I think in the 
Pilbara. 

503
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,840
And, but I mean, I was just 
driving past Camerton Industrial

504
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,800
Park near Bunbury and you know, 
that is actually, that was 

505
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,240
decades ago that was set up. 
You still don't have proper 

506
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,040
environmental approvals. 
You don't have land approvals, 

507
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,200
you don't, you don't have proper
power, you don't have 

508
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,080
connections. 
Like it's a joke. 

509
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,200
And I think when Albemarle set 
up there for its lithium 

510
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,440
processing plant, that was a 
kind of pretty big deal and they

511
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,480
were going to expand it. 
Well, of course, there were two 

512
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,240
things that happened. 1 is that 
the lithium prices, you know, 

513
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,560
the collapse and the lithium 
price. 

514
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,600
So clearly that's not as nearly 
as attractive as it was. 

515
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,480
But the other, the other problem
has been it's just so difficult 

516
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,200
to do business down there. 
It's not as though if you've got

517
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,280
choices about where to invest, 
you'd, you'd choose somewhere 

518
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,560
that they weren't even at the 
beginning. 

519
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,880
But if you compare that to some 
of the industrial parks and 

520
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,440
somewhere like Indonesia for 
Nickel where you know, it's all 

521
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,480
ready to go. 
And they do have that kind of 

522
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,840
shared infrastructure, shared 
skills, shared worksite, 

523
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,240
everything's there ready to go. 
And, and yet we don't manage 

524
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,920
that at all. 
And I think that's one of the 

525
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,600
issues with where the government
could have and should have and 

526
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360
do something more than it than 
it has, but it doesn't want to 

527
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:15,360
spend the capital investment on 
something that's going to be 

528
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,040
years before there is actually a
good return. 

529
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,480
With talking about the Pilbara, 
it fascinates me that like the 

530
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,000
quantity of work that happens up
there and most of it is run on 

531
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,960
diesel, like the infrastructure 
up there. 

532
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,080
I just, like I think someone 
said Rio Tinto choose through 9 

533
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,760
billion litres of diesel a year.
Like yeah, that's for the 

534
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,280
Pilbara, the iron ore side of 
things and everything is 

535
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,120
freaking huge, what they 
operate. 

536
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,040
Is there any talk of putting 
energy infrastructure in at the?

537
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,960
Oh, no, there's a lot, there's a
lot there. 

538
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,520
You know, a lot of them are like
Rio and and FM GB H they're 

539
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,560
they're building solar farms, 
They're trying and they've got 

540
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,560
all these commitments to try and
move reduce the the level of 

541
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,560
diesel. 
They're still, I mean, the 

542
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,080
trucks are obviously a big 
issue. 

543
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,280
I mean, because, you know, it's 
just not the technology's not 

544
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,200
there for for a lot of the 
trucks to be electric and 

545
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:09,880
things. 
But, but in terms of the power 

546
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,840
they're using, there's a, you 
know, there's huge advances 

547
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,200
being made on that in terms of 
solar and wind power putting in 

548
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,200
their own energy infrastructure.
What about a gas pipeline from 

549
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,560
some? 
Yeah. 

550
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:24,480
They kind of have their own. 
Base base load like gas or 

551
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,520
anything to go up there? 
I'm not sure I'm not. 

552
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,960
I think they're more 
concentrating. 

553
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,000
There's obviously going to be 
some gas, but I think they're 

554
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,080
more concentrating on on wind 
and solar with kind of gas or 

555
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,560
with with backup diesel, 
whatever it's it's but I think 

556
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,200
you would be astonished because 
they're so big and so massive. 

557
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,400
They can put in those giant 
projects, whether or not they're

558
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,560
going to do them themselves or 
whether they're going to get a 

559
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,600
third party to do them. 
That's all become more 

560
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,840
complicated. 
And of course, the also the 

561
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,200
other issue is the kind of whole
native title thing. 

562
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,600
And that becomes if you're 
taking over much more land, 

563
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,000
that's also complicated as well.
But these things take years 

564
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,520
basically to develop. 
Is there and is there much argy 

565
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,840
bargy between them? 
Because I assume that between 

566
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,720
the like the big three and 
probably Chuck Hancock in there 

567
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,160
as well. 
It's like right, who's building 

568
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,320
it, who's paying for it, who's 
using it like because they all 

569
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,600
want to like you. 
You see the bloody jewel rail 

570
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,400
lines up there everywhere 
because the how that whole the 

571
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,080
politics with those big on all 
companies works. 

572
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,040
I assume that'd be the same with
the energy. 

573
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,680
Well, actually I, I think that 
they've, they've learned a bit 

574
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,400
of a lesson on that because I 
remember, I remember when there 

575
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,480
was Rio and BHP and they had 
their rail lines. 

576
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,160
And of course Forrest wanted to 
access those rail lines and he 

577
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,400
took them to court and it went 
for years. 

578
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,200
And they were saying, well, you 
know, it just dragged out. 

579
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,760
But in the end, he built his own
and common rather than kind of 

580
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,720
fighting for common user things.
I, I do think that there's a bit

581
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,320
more shared infrastructure on 
and, and, and they kind of all 

582
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,360
realise now that they've, they 
kind of sinkhole swim together. 

583
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,760
And you've got some quite a bit 
of cooperation, not necessarily 

584
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,320
with Fortescue, not necessarily 
with Hancock, but like Rio and 

585
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,720
BHP are doing kind of quite a 
bit of stuff on green iron and 

586
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,160
how to work together, you know, 
pilot projects and things like 

587
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,280
that. 
So I don't think you're going to

588
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:27,080
find that because it's too hard.
And also it's just the the lack 

589
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,400
of competition, Australia's lack
of competitiveness rather makes 

590
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,600
that just kind of complicates 
things further if if there's not

591
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,600
a degree of least of 
cooperation. 

592
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,160
Is how is old Twiggy going going
catching up with him? 

593
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,080
No, I haven't caught up with him
on this trip. 

594
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,840
Has he? 
Has he eaten his humble pie on 

595
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,760
the hydrogen yet? 
I don't think you'd ever see a 

596
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,760
meeting. 
Humble pie. 

597
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,200
No, I don't think so. 
I think it's they've just all 

598
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,880
recognised it's going to take a 
lot longer than they thought and

599
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,440
that of course that's a very 
optimistic. 

600
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,320
Requires a much higher energy 
price. 

601
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,040
And so he's the one beneficiary 
of a very high energy price. 

602
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,880
Yes. 
And maybe he, you know, maybe 

603
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,640
he's import terminal, you know, 
all that sort of stuff. 

604
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,680
It's all kind of like, yeah, I 
think it's, I think there's not 

605
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,880
enough fingers pointing at him. 
Fair, fair. 

606
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,760
You know, the fact that that 
he's a massive beneficiary of 

607
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,480
the high energy price by by the 
by. 

608
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,200
All. 
Yeah, Well, of course Squadron 

609
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,680
Energy will say, you know he's 
private owned. 

610
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,280
Squadron Energy will say 
actually that the LNG prices are

611
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,000
going to be coming down and 
we'll be at least competitive 

612
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,440
with domestic prices and they'll
be going up. 

613
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,840
I have no idea as having looked 
at energy over a period of a 

614
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,400
decade or so now, the thing that
I have become aware of is no, I 

615
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,480
don't care what expert 
predictions you've got, they all

616
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,040
seem to be wrong. 
And so you know, Yep, you can 

617
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,320
make some kind of educated 
guesses and but that's about as,

618
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,800
as far as you get. 
Now, whether or not the LNG 

619
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,920
terminal import is going to be a
viable proposition, I think it 

620
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,480
probably will be only because 
we've so screwed up our own 

621
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,840
domestic gas supply. 
I've, I've heard word on the 

622
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,080
decline that Fortescue or 
whether it's a subsidiary or 

623
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,800
whatever, you know, I'm making 
some sort of enquiries into 

624
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,280
nuclear like because it makes 
the most sense for him to save 

625
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,280
the world via nuclear as well as
I just never talked about it. 

626
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,720
Has there been any, you know, 
rumours about that going around 

627
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,160
of their stance towards it or is
it still firm? 

628
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,680
No. 
I I'm afraid I have not had any 

629
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,120
conversations about that, so I 
I'd. 

630
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,040
Be breaking news. 
Yeah, well, you know, you can 

631
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,440
always have lots of abrupt 
reversals in any sorts of energy

632
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,120
policy. 
I mean, I've got nothing against

633
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,520
nuclear energy. 
Whether or not it's ever going 

634
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,160
to be viable in Australia, I 
don't know. 

635
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,000
But clearly it answers some of 
the questions, which is what of 

636
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,560
course the Coalition's going on 
about. 

637
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,280
It answers some of the questions
about being both, you know, low 

638
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:09,640
emissions or zero emissions 
virtually and and more more 

639
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,600
reliable. 
But you know, we we're talking 

640
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:19,960
10/15/20 years out and I am not 
sure that we really we will have

641
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,520
any idea of what the energy 
market looks like at that stage.

642
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,240
So it's, and so I guess getting 
back to that point is like this 

643
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,120
next decade, you see is 
extremely critical. 

644
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,920
What is it's critical, but it's 
kind of like going in the dark a

645
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,560
bit. 
And Australia has managed, I do 

646
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,720
think to stumble, you know, kind
of X. 

647
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,720
It's been very lucky. 
It's been it's, it's built, it's

648
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:48,000
much of its wealth not only on, 
you know, things like iron ore 

649
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,000
and coal, but also in just 
having low cost energy. 

650
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,560
And those days are kind of 
ending. 

651
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,680
And I don't think anybody's 
really kind of quite registered 

652
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,240
that. 
So the idea, for example, that 

653
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,240
you've got the government giving
subsidies to every household to 

654
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,000
for their power bills and the 
coalition not saying whether or 

655
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,560
not they'd continue that it just
that's just indicative of a 

656
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,480
really, really broken system. 
And it's very, very different to

657
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,240
say like despite all the 
problems with the US and mining 

658
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,000
at at at least over there you've
got low energy costs do. 

659
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,360
Do you think Canberra looks 
enough at Germany, say on the 

660
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,720
one hand and and the US on the 
other hand and and lands from 

661
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,480
no, you know, other countries, 
No. 

662
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,360
Answer no. 
It's disappointing because it's 

663
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,360
way cheaper to learn from other 
people's mistakes than you like 

664
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,760
them yourself. 
Yeah, look, how real is it, the 

665
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,160
energy, I guess crisis and 
sensitivity over there because, 

666
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,240
and I've listened to tune into 
two GB every now and then just 

667
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,600
to make me feel back in NSW and 
you just hear about how the 

668
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,680
light the, I think it's a, it 
was one of the Hunter Valley 

669
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,240
plants is on 99% load and like 
it's literally Tay though as the

670
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,200
AGL plants are teetering on the 
edge of tripping the whole 

671
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,920
system out. 
Like is it that runs a fine line

672
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,280
all the time? 
Yeah, it runs. 

673
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,800
Yeah, it runs a. 
Fine line in summer I show all. 

674
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,360
The time, yeah. 
And also because there was no 

675
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:11,760
appreciation. 
I didn't mean I think there was 

676
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,639
in the industry, but I don't 
think there was any political 

677
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:19,199
appreciation of how difficult 
and protracted it would be to 

678
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,719
get like all the transmission 
lines in place. 

679
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,440
The the days when you can kind 
of just put all that, just 

680
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,560
bulldoze through people's 
property and that was OK. 

681
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,400
It was fine and nobody could say
anything that that's that's 

682
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,159
gone. 
And now getting that kind of 

683
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,080
community support is very, very 
difficult. 

684
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,040
And I think we've really not, I 
mean, I don't think any, the 

685
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,159
governments have not under 
appreciated that. 

686
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,040
And so therefore, quite apart 
from the normal problems with 

687
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,000
construction costs and, and lack
of labour and all of those, you 

688
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,679
know, which have only become 
worse, there's just been zero 

689
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,000
understanding, which is only 
just kind of that you actually 

690
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:05,200
either have to convince people, 
pay people, whatever to, to 

691
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,600
allow access. 
And, and they, and the 

692
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,200
governments of course, haven't 
really wanted to go to 

693
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,320
compulsory acquisition because 
that would make them even more 

694
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,760
unpopular. 
So that's a, that's a big issue.

695
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,720
And then, of course, you've got,
you know, other hopes like 

696
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:22,600
offshore wind power, which I 
cannot, I just cannot understand

697
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,480
that there would ever be a 
viable business case for that. 

698
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,800
Sounds cool. 
Sounds looks cool, yeah. 

699
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,360
Just on hydrogen once more, I 
think it came out in the in the 

700
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,720
budget maybe six months ago or 
so that there were further 

701
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,760
incentives, minerals processing 
as as well as hydrogen. 

702
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,800
What was the sort of perspective
you had on, on hydrogen? 

703
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,920
I think we were sort of 
scratching our head and thought 

704
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,080
that hype behind that had, you 
know, been put firmly behind us 

705
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,080
in the 2020-2021 kind of period.
So I mean, I was a bit surprised

706
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,920
to see that I can't remember the
figure off the top of my head. 

707
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,240
Maybe up to seven sort of 
billion dollars in potential, 

708
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,000
you know, tax credits and, and 
the like for hydrogen projects. 

709
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,400
Yeah, there were a few billion. 
I can't remember exactly how 

710
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,920
many billion, but yeah, that's 
right. 

711
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,480
Well, I do think they're trying 
to, you know, place bets all 

712
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,720
over the place. 
And so hydrogen seemed like a 

713
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,000
good idea. 
And in the sense that it does 

714
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,880
take people a while to catch up 
with reality, the the hype kind 

715
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,280
of carried at foot because it 
then takes a while to translate 

716
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,200
into political reality. 
So. 

717
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,680
Five years later. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

718
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,760
A few years later, they kind of 
come up with this in the budget 

719
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,320
and this will all be a kind of a
great thing. 

720
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,760
And and I'm trying to remember 
which budget it was, but maybe 

721
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,840
it was 2, two years ago, 18 
months ago. 

722
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,880
Anyway, I don't need to, but it 
takes for ages, you know, to 

723
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,440
then come and again come into 
place, cooled on it, then the 

724
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,760
investment market cools on it. 
Plus up at the time the actual 

725
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,000
becomes actual policy. 
Like, you've got that with the 

726
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,480
production tax credits, you 
know, for a lot of the critical 

727
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,080
minerals stuff, you know, when 
that was kind of being pushed, 

728
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,440
that was that seemed like a 
great idea. 

729
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,680
Well, now nothing's really much 
going on in that area, and maybe

730
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,440
it will again, but they're not 
even going to come into effect 

731
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:07,840
till 2027. 
So. 

732
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,680
Yeah. 
You spend, you spend like a lot 

733
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,480
of, a lot of time in the roles 
that you've had, you know, 

734
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,000
speaking with like very 
important significant decision 

735
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,840
makers, very like rich people, 
politicians, blah, blah, the 

736
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,640
whole works, right? 
Yeah, like, yeah, like. 

737
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,440
What are the major frustrations 
you have kind of like glancing 

738
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,240
across that scene, like if? 
You're the major frustrations 

739
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:31,120
are I have or the major 
frustrations you have. 

740
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,760
I have, yes. 
And you impart. 

741
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,760
On the road What you mean 
because I'm a because I'm a rich

742
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,320
person or because I'm a what 
just. 

743
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,640
No, just interacting with. 
Well, I, I mean, basically, I, I

744
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,560
can see how many frustrations 
there are in business. 

745
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,160
And somebody said to me, we'll 
remain unnamed, but, you know, 

746
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,120
fairly significant minor, but we
have a lot of talk about, you 

747
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,360
know, the care economy and, you 
know, that's all wonderful and 

748
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,560
how we need to spend more on 
that. 

749
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,600
There's absolutely nothing ever 
said about productivity or how 

750
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,000
to increase the wealth so that 
we can pay for all these 

751
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,600
services. 
And look, that's beginning to 

752
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,160
change a little bit. 
I mean, but, but it's very slow.

753
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,960
So I guess that is my 
frustration. 

754
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,680
And I, I agree that in the end, 
it's the private sector that's 

755
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,320
got to drive things with, with 
the kind of right, government 

756
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,120
framework and policies. 
But it's really only been like 

757
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,400
almost in the last little tiny 
while that even the treasurer, 

758
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,720
Jim Chalmers has kind of 
basically said, oh, it's yeah, 

759
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,840
we've really got to do something
about the private sector and 

760
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,400
encourage, you know, private 
sector investment. 

761
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,040
And we acknowledge that really 
it's the private sector that 

762
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,640
will drive the economy because 
that has not been happening in 

763
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,480
fact. 
And so all the jobs that not all

764
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,560
the jobs that almost all the 
jobs that have been created are 

765
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:57,120
in government paid jobs, that's 
where that's where all the focus

766
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,520
has been to kind of, I suppose, 
compensate for people feeling 

767
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,600
that they were not getting ahead
so they need more help with, you

768
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,040
know, there was well, at the end
of the Morrison government, 

769
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,840
people were, you know, furious 
that there, there were problems 

770
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,840
with aged care, there were 
problems with childcare, 

771
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,160
problems with hospitals, things 
like that. 

772
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,680
Somebody goes, we just need to 
put more money into it. 

773
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,400
But there's been very little 
focus on how you get to 

774
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,520
Australia to be a more 
productive economy, to pay for 

775
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,280
all of that or any of it. 
And and frankly, and the other 

776
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,080
thing is, of course, the 
industrial relations laws that 

777
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:39,600
the government has put in were 
really designed because Tony 

778
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,720
Burke wanted basically wanted 
the support of the unions. 

779
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,960
But there's been no big picture 
reform attempts and certainly no

780
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,560
real attempts on tax reform. 
It's all considered too hard. 

781
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,640
So everything's very 
incremental. 

782
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,080
What what do you think some of 
the ways would be for the 

783
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:03,720
economy to be more productive to
answer answer your frustration. 

784
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,560
Well, I just. 
Look straight down the camera 

785
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,400
and tell them Jenny. 
Well, I, I do think the fact 

786
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,960
that Australia's tax system is 
just completely hopeless and as 

787
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,080
far too reliant, I think on 
income tax and taxing, you know,

788
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,080
all of those, you know, middle 
income workers and, and at the 

789
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,080
same time you've got this ageing
population. 

790
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,640
I think that is a huge problem 
and nobody wants to take that 

791
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,640
on. 
I do think that's a big issue. 

792
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,520
Similarly with industrial 
relations. 

793
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,360
I do, I think all of that has 
been a problem and what we've 

794
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,640
done is relied on immigration to
kind of paper a lot of that 

795
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,520
over. 
And I do think that there's 

796
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,360
going to be a reckoning. 
I mean Australia, I mean it's 

797
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,560
cost, it's a fantastic country 
to live in. 

798
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,120
Look at WA, you know, it's 
always fantastic to be here. 

799
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,920
Everything looks really healthy.
What could go wrong? 

800
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,040
Well, what could go wrong is 
we're just kind of sliding, 

801
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,560
sliding, sliding and I don't 
think we encourage that. 

802
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,360
But don't even get me started on
the education system. 

803
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,320
So. 
We can take. 

804
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,600
This part to patch as well, like
the last call it like five 

805
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,120
years. 
The the the on oil prices being 

806
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,880
called like one one 20s like on 
average. 

807
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,880
And and yet the Aussie dollar 
stayed low and like you're 

808
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,320
you're you're 70 cents 65. 
So that's a that is a that that 

809
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,960
is an absurd. 
Normally they track together 

810
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,800
right? 
Like high commodities your your 

811
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:31,960
Aussie dollar goes higher. 
Coal price too. 

812
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:32,800
Yeah. 
So, yeah. 

813
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,280
So the the the benefit from the 
royalties of that to the to the 

814
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,520
to the government is like what 
like we are we used to that as 

815
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,720
the new sweet spot like that. 
That's been a purple patch. 

816
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:45,600
That's an anomaly that shouldn't
That is not the norm. 

817
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,960
Yes, but I think everybody does 
think that's the norm. 

818
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,840
And of course, let's not forget 
that everybody outside WA, you 

819
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,680
know, then gets very resentful 
about the GST, you know, the 

820
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,360
money that's going back to 
Australia, to WA, which, yeah, I

821
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,240
know that you know, nobody, 
nobody in West outside WA thinks

822
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:06,160
that I of course being a good 
WA, you know, defend, defend 

823
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,000
this arrangement. 
But most other people think 

824
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,600
that's a very, very bad idea. 
But I yeah, so I think our kind 

825
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,600
of whole tax system is just 
really skewed and and that has 

826
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,400
not, that has not helped. 
And at the same time, as I said,

827
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,880
where most of the jobs have been
been in the government sector 

828
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:27,560
and the productivity in the 
public sector has just hasn't 

829
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,360
moved or has gone backwards for 
decades. 

830
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,640
Well. 
There's been, I know. 

831
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,520
It's hard to measure that, but 
it's really gotten kind of much,

832
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,760
much worse. 
Yeah, and there's been a sort 

833
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,200
of, we'll show at least more 
chatter about unionisation in, 

834
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,960
in the Pilbara, kind of tying in
with the industrial relations, 

835
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,240
industrial reforms policies. 
Do you, do you think that goes 

836
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:50,320
anywhere or do you think the, 
you know the, I guess the 

837
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,480
realisation that it's not bad, 
we earn an awesome salary, those

838
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,800
sorts of things carry, carry 
Australians sort of through. 

839
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,160
Well, I think that's a big risk.
I do think that's a risk and 

840
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:07,520
clearly it's going to be a lot 
easier to, if not, not organise 

841
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,880
a workforce, get access and then
have complaints because you 

842
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,040
really only get, only need one 
or two people and you'll be able

843
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,280
to, you know, enter the site and
you know, and demand to be part 

844
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,120
of the bargaining arrangements 
and things like that. 

845
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,760
So I, I think that's a clear 
risk, but I, I also think the 

846
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,240
companies are very aware of that
as well and they're trying to 

847
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,120
kind of board that off as much 
as possible. 

848
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:37,440
So if to the extent that it is a
problem, it'll take, this is the

849
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,520
beginning, but it it'll take 
some while before you see that 

850
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,200
particularly evident I think in 
the Pilbara. 

851
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,160
But for example in the coal 
industry in NSW and to 

852
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,640
Queensland, it's much bigger. 
And the the tunnels and 

853
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,920
everything in Sydney, like 
Snowy, Audro, they're all 

854
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,600
unionised. 
It's just I've never worked with

855
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,840
one so I can't. 
I'll probably give a bit of a 

856
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,200
blase view, but it's just gives 
people the reason not to work. 

857
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,000
Light unions. 
Well, BHB, you have the 

858
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,480
experience in in Chile as well, 
where operations stop, Yeah, 

859
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,400
they stop. 
And I mean, they've got. 

860
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,160
They've always had coal and 
they've got the coal experience 

861
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,920
in, yeah. 
They've got 130 years of 

862
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,120
fighting unions, so yes. 
But also the, the construction 

863
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,680
industry in particular, I think 
has been a particularly bad 

864
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,200
example of what can go wrong. 
And, and, and in a sense, 

865
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,160
whether you've had all the, you 
know, the LNG plants in WA or 

866
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,040
they've, they've been able to 
get away with it because the 

867
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,280
conditions have been OK most of 
the time. 

868
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,680
You know, but it's really 
impossible I think to these days

869
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,560
to, to have a hope of being 
competitive when you've got that

870
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,960
type of level of activity. 
It's the like the tunnels and 

871
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,640
stuff in Sydney like snowy hydro
and Snowy hydro. 

872
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,400
Is it like, does it, does it 
boost the economy a bit like 

873
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,080
those infrastructure projects in
Sydney or is it Sydney that big?

874
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,920
It's not even that noticeable. 
Oh no, no, it's the. 

875
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,640
Closest thing to no. 
Of course, no, no. 

876
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,840
Well, of course it, it means 
that there's a lot of money kind

877
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,840
of pumping through the economy. 
There is, that is, you know, 

878
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,240
true. 
So it does boost it in that way,

879
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:12,280
but it but it also means that 
there's a lot of debt building 

880
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,720
up as well and money's not going
to other parts of the economy. 

881
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,320
Yeah, education system, the 
University of Wollongong 

882
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,120
shutting down the mining school.
Did you say that? 

883
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:25,800
No, I did not say. 
That, that was the, the big 

884
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,560
uproar. 
So now there's, I don't know if 

885
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,760
you're referring to more child 
or tertiary or both, but there's

886
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,080
now only going to be, unless it 
gets reversed, 1 mining school 

887
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,720
on the eastern seaboard of 
Australia because you could have

888
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,440
been shut down. 
I don't think University of 

889
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,720
Sydney got one, just the one in 
UNSW. 

890
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,280
You got the Ballarat one in 
Melbourne, which is more 

891
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,520
diplomas, but yeah. 
But I think that is like that is

892
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,600
an issue that, well, mining has 
a problem in like an image 

893
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,760
problem, you know, around the 
world, I guess. 

894
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,680
But in a, in a country like 
Australia, I think it's 

895
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,920
particularly pronounced. 
And to your point, I think in WA

896
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,880
it's a little different because 
people do understand. 

897
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,760
I remember Colin Barnett always 
used to say to me, every 

898
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,960
family's always got some 
connection to the resources 

899
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,840
industry in WA. 
And you'll notice that when you 

900
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,800
go to the airport or when I 
moved over, I'm like far out, 

901
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,200
there's some hive is floating 
around. 

902
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,440
Yeah, the whole. 
Airport is covered in and it was

903
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,520
just and coming from eastern 
states it's like you'd never 

904
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:25,520
seen it. 
Yes. 

905
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,440
And so I think that there's this
kind of disconnect between 

906
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,160
people's understanding of where 
Australia's wealth comes from. 

907
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,560
And I mean, obviously there's 
agriculture as well. 

908
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,840
And but, and also, but this idea
that it's somehow just magically

909
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,800
produced, you know, in financial
circles in, in Sydney and 

910
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,000
Melbourne, which of course it's 
not. 

911
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,280
You had this cracking line I'll 
have to read out in in one of 

912
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,400
your articles a couple months 
ago. 

913
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,280
W Australians are hardwired to 
believe their massive 

914
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,760
contribution to the national 
economy is not properly 

915
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,400
recognised in the eastern 
states. 

916
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,720
I love that. 
And yeah, I mean, I think it, I 

917
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:00,080
think it really hits home. 
It's true. 

918
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,880
I don't think I'll find any W 
Australian or disagree. 

919
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,600
Bring on the secession. 
What about big Trumpy? 

920
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,400
Big Trump's back in power? 
You've written plenty and you 

921
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,440
write plenty about himself and 
Kamala in the load up. 

922
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,000
Just go over the whole thing. 
He's he's not wasting. 

923
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,240
Australia get stuck in the in 
the crosshairs I think is an 

924
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,160
interesting perspective on on 
the trade wars with with. 

925
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,000
Yeah, well, I think it's very 
possible it it could. 

926
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,240
But when I said that you 
couldn't predict what was going 

927
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:35,680
to happen in the energy market, 
well, it's even harder to 

928
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,120
predict it was going to happen 
in the in the Trump presidency. 

929
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,920
And I'm, I'm really struck by 
the fact that, you know, markets

930
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,840
in general are pretty sanguine 
about the, what's going to 

931
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,080
happen if the, you know, what 
the, the impact of a trade war 

932
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,880
between, you know, China and, 
and the US and, you know, much 

933
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,480
higher tariffs and things like 
that. 

934
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,200
I don't know, I don't think 
anybody really knows how that's 

935
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,080
going to play out. 
I mean, it was fairly shocking, 

936
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,640
I think to both Canada and 
Mexico when Trump, when Trump, 

937
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,120
you know, exactly when Trump, 
you know, before he even takes 

938
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,840
power on June 20 announced, I 
think it was 25% tariffs on 

939
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,320
everything coming from Canada 
and Mexico. 

940
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,640
Now you don't know whether he's 
actually going to proceed with 

941
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,960
that or whether he's going to 
say, yeah, well, if you stop, 

942
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,880
you know, everybody coming at 
the border or if you stop, you 

943
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,160
know, import of drugs or 
something, then we'll we'll 

944
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,040
talk. 
You know, it won't, it won't 

945
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,160
happen. 
It's like it's really difficult 

946
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,880
to say. 
But he's got, of course, a 

947
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,480
Republican Congress now, which, 
you know, in both the Senate and

948
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,720
the House. 
So that really helps. 

949
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,040
But with tariffs, he didn't 
really need that anyway because 

950
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,400
you can do a lot just through 
executive orders and making 

951
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,840
rules. 
So but what you do know about 

952
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,520
Trump is that, you know, he's 
promised everybody that prices 

953
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:06,080
will go down. 
If they start going up, he's 

954
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,520
he's going to lose a lot of skin
quite quickly. 

955
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:15,960
So I think that that's why I 
assume many people in the market

956
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,520
think, Oh, well, it won't be as 
bad as is predicted. 

957
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,960
Because even though he's 
promising radical change and 

958
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:27,760
much more manufacturing in the 
US, he's not going to wait for 

959
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,080
prices to really become, you 
know, inflation in that sense to

960
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,160
really become a big problem for 
him politically. 

961
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,240
Now, how, how you can calibrate 
all that and manage it, you 

962
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:39,680
know, I don't. 
I've no idea. 

963
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,040
And I'm not sure he does either.
He must be, he must really want 

964
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:44,920
to cause what do you say? 
He wants to get the income tax 

965
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,800
rate down to 1315% or 13. 
Well, I think he what? 

966
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,080
I think he. 
Wants they have federal and 

967
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,720
state, yeah. 
But he's and he's but he also 

968
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,480
wants the the business. 
He'll certainly cut corporate 

969
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,760
tax rate quite, quite a lot. 
I think that was the, it was the

970
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,640
corporate one. 
Yeah, yeah, 'cause he might if, 

971
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,280
if he's going to put tariffs on 
everything but get prices down, 

972
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,320
it has to come from tax, you 
would think. 

973
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,200
Yeah. 
And of course, nobody in the US,

974
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,280
whether that used to be the 
Republicans, you know, really 

975
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,840
cared about debt, Well, nobody 
does, and the Republicans will 

976
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,240
have. 
To pay a bit off of your 

977
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:18,280
reckons. 
Yeah. 

978
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,360
So that's a kind. 
Of line can fix that one, yeah. 

979
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:22,920
Yeah, well, it's all about Oh 
no, well, the economic growth 

980
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,960
will just, you know, magically 
take care of all this, so it 

981
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:25,720
won't be an issue. 
I. 

982
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,200
Run away from it. 
Yeah. 

983
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,480
Yeah. 
Well, and so is the what's the 

984
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,480
view out there with I was just 
sort of JD was saying about the 

985
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,160
effect on Australia if, if the 
tariffs are being imposed on 

986
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,480
China, is it going to maybe 
promote less growth in China, 

987
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,480
which is going to pretty much 
impact all everything we export 

988
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,520
to China and the amount of it? 
Well, it it could. 

989
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,840
I mean, what's interesting is 
that the Chinese government just

990
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,800
in the last week or so has said 
much more about, you know, 

991
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,680
they're prepared to have a much 
looser monetary policy and much 

992
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,640
kind of greater physical 
stimulus. 

993
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,320
But they've hold held out 
entirely on saying what that is.

994
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,440
And I think they're just waiting
to see how the Trump 

995
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,960
administration policies affect 
them, what they're. 

996
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,480
But clearly, I mean, the Chinese
economy's obviously been a lot 

997
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,280
weaker and the consumer demand 
has been weaker than the 

998
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,760
government might have hoped. 
They've been managing to get 

999
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,120
away with that, but they won't 
want it to get much worse. 

1000
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,800
And so therefore I think they 
will unleash a stimulus. 

1001
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,880
So in that sense, yes, Australia
would be caught. 

1002
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,680
And clearly, you know, as a 
major expert, if there's a trade

1003
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,120
war going on where which has a 
problem for the global economy, 

1004
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,560
then that is difficult for 
Australia and naturally be kind 

1005
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,720
of caught by that. 
But, but I think it's also true 

1006
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:55,280
that China is well prepared to 
to act to kind of try and 

1007
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,720
stimulate its economy. 
But whether or not that's more 

1008
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:01,120
through kind of consumer demand 
than anything, I don't, I don't 

1009
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:06,320
know. 
But it's just going to be a very

1010
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:12,840
tense year or two, I'd say. 
And military's the interesting 

1011
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,000
one, I've seen that, or is it 
the Federal Government's putting

1012
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,280
$600 million in to get a rugby 
league team in PNG, which is 

1013
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,800
pretty much a lot of money. 
They're playing to get a big 

1014
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,880
defence base over there. 
Yes. 

1015
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,640
Effectively, yes, which is all 
related to, you know, China, 

1016
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:29,840
Taiwan. 
Well, that's right. 

1017
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:34,000
But of course, The thing is it's
very hard to out compete China 

1018
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,480
with money. 
So therefore you have to kind of

1019
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:43,200
try and compete it out compete 
in other ways and, you know, 

1020
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,680
including, you know, cultural 
ties and, you know, job offers 

1021
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,880
and things like that. 
And there's no doubt that the 

1022
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:56,080
Australian government was left 
completely unaware and napping 

1023
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,800
when the Solomon Islands signed 
the, I think, treaty or a pact 

1024
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,960
or a security pact with China. 
So they're determined and of 

1025
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,000
course the Americans are 
particularly determined that 

1026
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,280
that not happen again. 
So I think you'll see kind of 

1027
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,240
quite a lot of bit more of this 
emphasis. 

1028
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,440
But there's no doubt that 
China's, you know, behaving kind

1029
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,480
of much more, it's much more 
active, is becoming more 

1030
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,440
aggressive. 
I mean, I, I saw somebody from 

1031
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,400
the Philippines the other days 
in charge of the Navy in the 

1032
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,480
Philippines. 
And, and when you can see what 

1033
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,000
China's doing there against the 
Philippines, the Philippines 

1034
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,320
have been cautious in how they 
respond. 

1035
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,080
Again, they're waiting to see 
what the Trump administration 

1036
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,520
policies are going to be. 
Is it Australia going to be good

1037
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,640
buddies with Trump? 
Do you think if they're if we're

1038
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,200
going to D China, America's 
going to fill the void for 

1039
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,440
Australia or not? 
Well, I can't. 

1040
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,560
I mean in a sense. 
It's a long why? 

1041
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,880
Why? 
Well, no, I I don't think 

1042
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,840
there's any doubt that there's 
there'll be a very strong 

1043
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,040
alliance remaining with the USI 
don't think that's going to 

1044
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,040
change. 
I do think some of Trump's 

1045
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,360
policies, well, as you know, 
there's already a large section 

1046
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,880
of the Labour left that doesn't 
like orcas and the submarines 

1047
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,880
and thinks that all of that's a 
bad idea quite apart from the 

1048
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,880
practical problems. 
But so I think that will 

1049
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,720
strengthen that. 
But I don't think there's any 

1050
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:25,880
doubt that Australia will, you 
know, will still be heavily 

1051
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,920
reliant on the US for defence 
purposes, not least because we 

1052
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,760
don't spend, we don't, we don't 
spend anything ourselves. 

1053
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,280
We're actually going to be more 
integrated than ever with the 

1054
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,440
US, and the submarines are just 
one small part of that. 

1055
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,120
Yeah. 
You've also got the away from 

1056
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,080
military, the Inflation 
Reduction Act, which we were 

1057
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,560
talking about nonstop last year,
but it's gone quite quiet on 

1058
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,600
that front. 
Do you have a view on whether 

1059
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,600
Trump strips that right back, or
whether there's actually any 

1060
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,400
material benefits for more than 
a couple Aussie companies to be 

1061
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,400
had on that front? 
That's right, because it's not 

1062
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,720
as if there's been a lot of 
American investment or European 

1063
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:06,200
investment or anything kind of 
like to take the place of China,

1064
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:08,400
which is one of, you know, the 
issues. 

1065
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,320
It's all very well for them to 
say we want all these 

1066
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,360
alternative supply chains. 
Well, where's the money? 

1067
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,560
But in terms of the Inflation 
Reduction Act, again, who would 

1068
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,160
know? 
But one of the things that I 

1069
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,920
think they'll be obviously more 
of a or of an emphasis on oil 

1070
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,480
and gas, but but even under the 
Biden administration, like 

1071
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,640
American oil production and gas 
production, which is its highest

1072
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,720
level ever. 
So there's there's a kind of 

1073
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,560
quite a lot of hot air really 
talked about all this. 

1074
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,960
And the other issue with the 
Inflation Reduction Act is that 

1075
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,880
it was basically a lot of 
government money going out to a 

1076
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:45,840
lot of different projects, 
including manufacturing 

1077
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,880
projects, including in in 
heavily Republican states. 

1078
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,880
So it would not be likely. 
I don't think that either 

1079
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,040
Congress or Trump would be 
particularly interested in 

1080
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,680
pulling those types of projects.
Now, maybe there'll be some, you

1081
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,240
know, marginal wind project or 
something like that in, you 

1082
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,600
know, California that wouldn't 
get support in the same way that

1083
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,600
might have. 
But all these things are very, 

1084
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:16,320
very difficult to untangle. 
Is there is, do they go, does 

1085
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,080
the tariffs and the inflation 
reduction that go hand in hand 

1086
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:21,720
at all? 
Like if he's going to up the 

1087
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:24,960
tariffs, is that going to make 
it more, give people more 

1088
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:29,120
incentive to build and purchase 
in America and they don't need 

1089
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,560
the IRA as much? 
Oh, well, I'm, I'm sure that 

1090
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,720
well, as we know everybody 
always likes government money 

1091
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:36,360
and once it's kind of given it's
very hard to not or tax 

1092
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,440
incentives and things. 
But I, well, it kind of goes 

1093
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,120
hand in hand. 
But with the idea of restoring a

1094
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:46,280
lot of American manufacturing 
for the reasons we've talked 

1095
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,840
about, America has more prospect
of doing that than Australia 

1096
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,280
does, in part because of its 
lower energy costs and lower 

1097
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,240
costs and greater efficiency 
overall. 

1098
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,120
But it doesn't seem also 
realistic that you're going to 

1099
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,440
be able to replace, you know, a 
lot of low cost Chinese goods 

1100
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,960
with. 
No need another communist 

1101
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,760
country. 
Yeah, you can't get as cheap as 

1102
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,480
them. 
Yeah, I think that's the the 

1103
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,680
interesting angle on the on the 
trade wars. 

1104
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,880
It's not just one and two things
move. 

1105
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,040
You know, you take the iPhone 
factory out of China, it goes 

1106
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:21,880
to. 
Vietnam. 

1107
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:23,040
Yeah, exactly. 
And that's what's been 

1108
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,560
happening. 
So it depends how, how strict 

1109
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,840
they want to be about 
interpreting all of that. 

1110
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,640
And I don't think there 
obviously be some people who 

1111
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,480
would. 
And, and Trump has been 

1112
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,440
consistent. 
One thing he has been consistent

1113
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,680
about is, you know, a belief in 
terrorists for decades. 

1114
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,800
But I'm not sure that many 
people would say they'll 

1115
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,280
definitely be, you know, they'll
say whatever comes from Vietnam 

1116
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,200
has got made any Chinese parts. 
Unless it's sensitive, we won't 

1117
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,880
be able to import any of that 
because I think the impact on 

1118
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,160
the American economy and prices 
would be a bit too much. 

1119
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,440
Vietnam. 
Vietnam's cheaper than China, 

1120
00:57:58,440 --> 00:57:59,600
isn't it? 
It's low cost like. 

1121
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,600
That's one of the one of the 
reasons that a lot of it. 

1122
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,040
Was moving anyway this country, 
That's another topic. 

1123
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,240
Oh, that'll be the next. 
That'll be 30 years down the 

1124
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:08,240
road. 
They'll be like, Nah, we've got 

1125
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,960
AD Vietnam. 
Bloody good soup, but I love the

1126
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,160
soup. 
Well, get the get the crystal 

1127
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:14,880
ball out, Jenny, for the next 
decade. 

1128
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,520
You said this is a critical 
decade coming up with energy and

1129
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,040
and just just a bit of 
everything. 

1130
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:20,600
What do you think's going to 
play out? 

1131
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,760
Well, I think federal. 
Election's probably the first 

1132
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,400
place. 
Federal election. 

1133
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,200
Because we're going to use this 
against you in future if you get

1134
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:29,520
it all wrong. 
Just letting you know. 

1135
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,960
Which is why I'm going to sound 
extremely cautious in what I 

1136
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,520
say. 
But at the moment, obviously, it

1137
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:42,960
looks most likely that that the 
Labor Party will not be able to 

1138
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,600
form majority government. 
But the question is, you know, 

1139
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,600
how close they can get for the 
Liberals to pick up, say 

1140
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,240
something like 20 seats. 
That doesn't seem particularly 

1141
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,120
feasible unless there's an 
absolute, you know, revulsion 

1142
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,160
against them. 
But I don't think that's going 

1143
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,520
to be they're going to be 
enough. 

1144
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,920
But I think we're going to 
actually have a bit of, I'm 

1145
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,560
sorry to sound so negative at 
Christmas, but a bit of 

1146
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,800
paralysis because you've either 
going to have the Labor Party 

1147
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,480
met in a much weakened position 
or I think less, far less 

1148
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,880
likely, but possible. 
You had a you had a Coalition 

1149
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:21,800
government. 
Well, guess what? 

1150
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,560
They're just going to be stymied
in the Senate. 

1151
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,120
I do, I do think this kind of 
paralysis, yeah. 

1152
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,040
But paralysis in Australian 
politics has been, it's a really

1153
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,200
big issue. 
And I do think the Senate is a, 

1154
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,880
you know, it's just, you know, 
where where policies go to die. 

1155
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,080
Now that can be good if they're 
bad policies, but not good if 

1156
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:41,960
they're good policies. 
And it certainly doesn't 

1157
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:47,920
encourage the type of, you know,
restructuring or kind of quite 

1158
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:53,200
hard policy choices that I think
would be needed to kind of 

1159
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,920
change the kind of meandering 
direction of the Australian 

1160
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,040
economy at the moment. 
Is that and is one of those 

1161
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,520
around like tax legislation? 
Is that one of the big ones? 

1162
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:02,960
That would be a huge one. 
That should be. 

1163
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,000
That's Jenny's big ticket item I
can sense. 

1164
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,000
Yeah. 
And so then, of course, then the

1165
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,840
other issue is, and everybody 
hopes that this is not the case 

1166
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,760
and, and presumably it'll be all
right. 

1167
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:21,200
But I mean, it is not incorrect 
to say that the world looks just

1168
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,960
a lot more dangerous than it 
did, you know, 10 years ago, 

1169
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,880
five years ago. 
And it is. 

1170
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,360
And I'm not who, you know, 
there'll be a Black Swan event. 

1171
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,160
Nobody knows exactly where it'll
come from. 

1172
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,960
Yeah, I think Taiwan's probably 
the top of the probability, so 

1173
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,360
I'd say. 
Well, yeah, I guess it is and 

1174
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,320
we'll just see how that works. 
But I mean, what the Biden 

1175
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,440
administration was always doing,
not not necessarily always 

1176
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,840
effectively, but it was building
up a lot more alliances. 

1177
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,880
You know, in the in the region 
that's they they put a lot of 

1178
01:00:55,880 --> 01:01:00,280
focus on that with, you know, 
Japan, India, whether whether 

1179
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,280
they called it the lettuce work,
I think of alliances, which is a

1180
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,200
kind of fancy name. 
But whether or not that will 

1181
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,640
continue, how much more 
dramatic, I don't know. 

1182
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:18,160
But I do think that it's going 
to be a very well interesting in

1183
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,880
in not necessarily the good 
sense of the word period over 

1184
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:25,040
the next few years. 
And my issue, I guess in terms 

1185
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:32,160
of Australian concerns is that 
the politics of that the, the 

1186
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,400
governments and public 
understanding of that is not 

1187
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:40,600
really there. 
And and so nobody wants to talk 

1188
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,600
about other than the fact we're 
going to kind of discontinue 

1189
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:44,720
what we're doing really. 
There you are. 

1190
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:46,360
So you're not held to much 
there? 

1191
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:52,160
No, there's no specific thing. 
So you think your first rodeo, 

1192
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,120
Jenny. 
Beautiful sports. 

1193
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:57,160
I'm all out, thanks a lot for 
making the time. 

1194
01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:59,680
It tastes better. 
I've much more intelligent 

1195
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,240
conversations with you when I've
got other people with me to. 

1196
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:03,680
Assist. 
Now I wonder why that is. 

1197
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,400
Thanks very much Ian, Merry 
Christmas to yourself and you 

1198
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,160
may not be the last AFR person 
that comes on before the end of 

1199
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:13,200
the year. 
Got to get the two gingers on. 

1200
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,240
Yes, good. 
So fantastic. 

1201
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:16,360
Yes. 
Thanks a lot. 

1202
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:17,720
Thank you very much. 
Pleasure to be here. 

1203
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,040
Yeah, beauty. 
That was bloody sensational. 

1204
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,840
Thanks to the I don't even know 
if the AFR knew she was coming 

1205
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,320
on but she got clearance. 
Say no now, but when you're a 

1206
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,840
big deal like ready to do it, 
you just do whatever the fuck 

1207
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:32,880
you want. 
That's all good. 

1208
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:35,200
That's all I. 
Hope to be at that stage one day

1209
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,120
in life. 
We do have a couple of people to

1210
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,280
thank though. 
But these people do what you 

1211
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:42,880
want, that's they are a service 
provider. 

1212
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,720
Mineral Mining services. 
Grounded Grounded Zambic ground 

1213
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,200
support. 
CRA Insurance. 

1214
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,800
Carrie Drill. 
ASAT salt Bush contracting and 

1215
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,680
get wet solutions. 
Mate, I've gotta wait and get 

1216
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:59,800
wet at Christmas. 
Information contained in this 

1217
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:02,520
episode of Money of Mine is of 
general nature only and does not

1218
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,160
take into account the 
objectives, financial situation 

1219
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,280
or needs of any particular 
person. 

1220
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,560
Before making any investment 
decision, you should consult 

1221
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,640
with your financial advisor and 
consider how appropriate the 

1222
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,320
advice is to your objectives, 
financial situation and needs.