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Love it right Eye money miners, 
you got questions about bloody 

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studies? 
We are delivering an absolute 

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spectacular. 
You might notice on the if you 

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see a good ASX announcement with
the word Entech mining 

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consultant in it. 
We are delivering the people 

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that drive those announcements, 
the founder himself, Shane 

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Mcclay and the resident 
principal. 

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I won't say rock liquor, we'll 
say geologist. 

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We'll keep it tidy. 
Jill Urban, thank you very much 

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for walking 100 metres to come 
and see us for a bit of a 

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consultant. 
Spectacular maca. 

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Whoever said consultants were 
boring, you've always said that.

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Exciting tonight. 
It should be boring. 

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Hey, we've tried to make this 
conversation happen, I reckon 

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for the best part of a year now.
I think we were bumped back a 

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couple of. 
Times big ticket people, mate, 

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big ticket people. 
They take. 

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They take a bit of work 
sometimes, but it's going to be 

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worth it. 
Changes saw how how big the flow

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and effect for Nathan's story 
was and was like I want some of 

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that money in mine effect you. 
Don't need to get on board, 

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you're already on the long town 
board rocks guard. 

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Look at him, just catapulted. 
He's actually can't believe I'm 

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so interested in metallurgy. 
He's so flattered. 

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No, that's good. 
Thanks for having us, guys. 

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So yeah, here with Jill from 
Entek and yeah, we've been 

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working together for nearly a 
decade and lovely to be here to 

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tell our story. 
Well, wait, I guess what's what 

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initially sparked the discussion
was like talking about studies 

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and I think I was actually 
talking to you about between 

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scoping PFSDFS bankable lot. 
What's the actual differences in

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and from like looking behind the
hood from the consultant side of

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actually what goes into the 
planning of it here? 

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What is different between the 
different levels of how you 

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actually get all this together 
and like what is a good study, a

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bad study and from your 
obviously got the mining 

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engineering expertise Maka, but 
you're probably good expert at 

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everything now after having do 
it all. 

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And then from the mineral 
resource side of things, why 

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don't we tie it all in together 
so. 

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That's the way of saying we 
realised how much we didn't know

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and we need you guys to come on 
and explain what we don't know. 

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So why don't we start with a 
good study and a bad study at 

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the set? 
Let's start the scoping study 

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level and then maybe we can sort
of work through PFS, DFS, these 

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sorts of. 
Things well, I'll explain the 

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difference between the levels of
study. 

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So really once you go from 
scoping to pre feasibility to 

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feasibility study, BFS and DFS, 
they don't really mean anything 

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other than it's a feasibility 
study. 

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So they're kind of at the same 
level. 

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I think Jorg's trying to get rid
of those terms bankable and and 

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definitive. 
So it's just feasibility study, 

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but really it's the quality of 
the inputs to the study. 

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So you start with the scoping 
study, which is very high level,

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well, not very high level, but a
high level study that really 

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wants to answer the question is 
the project feasible? 

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And there will need to be lots 
of assumptions. 

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And and from there you go to a 
fee, a pre feasibility study and

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that's where you look at the 
options analysis and then 

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through to the feasibility study
and that's the one you take 

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through the financial decision. 
So if the quality, the inputs 

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are different as you go along 
and obviously the levels of 

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accuracy reduce as you get 
towards the financial decision 

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making, the feasibility study. 
And then the number we see 

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kicked around 35% ish for the 
scoping study. 

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Is that sort of? 
Right. 

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Yeah, Yep, 30 to 50 in that 
range depending on who you ask. 

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Yep. 
The PFS always comes out and the

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CapEx is about twice as big and 
then yeah, DFS is twice as big 

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again. 
Yeah, yeah, there's a. 

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It's a big a lot of opposite. 
Studies. 

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So when you talk like, let's use
some, oh, you could probably use

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as a speaker to store, you could
probably use rocks golden as 

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example. 
The the you and me when you're 

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talking about you've got 
potentially using a a lot of 

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different scenarios when you're 
talking like, OK, are we going 

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to mine it and create a 
concentrate to then sell? 

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Or are we going to put a 
processing plan in with high, 

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high pressure grinding and not 
go the concentrate route? 

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When you when you're evaluating 
those sort of many broad range 

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of options of how to like 
process something, is that done 

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in a scoping study level and 
then to evaluate all the 

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different options and then 
they're really refined in the 

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PFS when you nail down one idea 
when do those decisions? 

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Most of the works done in the 
PFS, so you may look at a couple

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of options and there'll be some 
broad assumptions. 

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But the PFS is when a lot of 
work is done and, and quite 

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often the PFS will take longer 
than a feasibility study because

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you've got to look at all the 
options and that's where you 

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have to do it at, at a certain 
level of accuracy. 

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Yeah. 
So, OK, So what what's the 

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what's the difference between 
you probably said it before, if 

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you that situation scoping to 
pay FS and is there stages when 

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you just do a pay FS straight up
and not do a Skyping study? 

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Well, this one of my biggest bug
bears actually. 

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And you know the question what? 
What is a bad study? 

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And really you've got to follow 
the, you know, there's 3 levels 

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of study for a reason. 
And I think that process is 

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really, really important. 
And quite often we'll have 

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clients come to us and say, 
yeah, we want to do a scoping 

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and then we're just going to do 
the feasibility study. 

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And yeah, it might work. 
But quite often you'll, you'll 

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leave stuff on the table and you
might actually get to the end of

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your feasibility study and go, 
Oh my God, this doesn't work. 

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So yeah, those three steps are 
really important. 

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And so when you say we just want
to go straight to a feasibility,

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so we just want to go scoping to
DFS, is that right? 

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Yeah. 
Yep, Yep. 

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And people will quite often do 
that. 

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And simple projects, you'll get 
away with it where there's not a

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lot of options, You know, small 
gold pit in the gold fields, you

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know, digging up some oxide 
material, you know, really it's 

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just about tidying it all up. 
But you know, something like 

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rocks, gold, not that I know 
much about it, but yeah, you'll 

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need to obviously put the work 
in. 

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There's also like a level of 
information gathering as well 

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through each step as well. 
So you know from a drilling 

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point of view, the amount of 
information you have at a 

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scoping study is not would you 
be expecting a DFS? 

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So there's like several rounds 
of drilling and extra 

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information need to happen 
through the process as well. 

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So even if someone wants to make
it quicker, there's, you know, 

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probably a good few resourcing 
fields they gotta do. 

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Yeah. 
So and probably talking about 

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the drilling specifically in the
mineral resource estimate, wait 

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before you do your first study, 
you're scoping what's probably 

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the least amount of confidence 
that you need in the mineral 

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resource when you can commence 
that cause what you I guess 

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alluded to there is like that 
the resource needs to be 

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upgraded as the study. 
Usually progress, yeah, usually 

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it kind of goes like that, but 
you, I mean, you need some 

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drilling in it. 
You wouldn't be able to do it on

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an expression target 
necessarily. 

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It'd be, you know, inferred 
level. 

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So you could sort of 
conceptually get an idea of of 

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what's happening, but you need 
to move to indicator quite 

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quickly through any anything 
moving from PFS onwards. 

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Yeah, 'cause we saw one recently
where the they put out a study 

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with no NPV and no IRR because 
of the high, high percentage of 

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inferred material in it. 
And it's sort of like everyone's

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like, well, why the hell are you
putting this study out? 

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And we don't even have a, a 
number to see if it makes money 

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or not. 
But they obviously wanted to get

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the study out for, you know, 
whether it was capital reasons 

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or share price reasons or 
whatever. 

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But is, is that a bit of a grey 
area to actually progress to a 

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study? 
But it's like, well, you haven't

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got enough geological 
information actually to put a 

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the, the, the two numbers behind
it that people want to see. 

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I guess. 
What's your view on it? 

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Sure answer is yes, it still is.
Despite everything you have to 

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guide you, it still is up for 
debate in terms of what people 

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would like to do or what they do
do. 

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Yeah. 
But generally speaking, yeah, 

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you're going to need, you know, 
for what we would do. 

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We would need a sentiment of 
drilling to to be able to wrap 

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a, you know, a joke resource 
around it. 

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And I assume that number of 
infer, that inferred percentage 

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number is very dependent on the 
ore body style. 

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If you can, like you could have 
a high inferred number. 

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But if it's something like a 
continuous, what you deem a 

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continuous ore body, you could 
be more confident. 

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But if there's shit going on 
everywhere, yeah, yeah, you'd 

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need a higher confidence. 
Yeah, it's a little bit 

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confidence, geological 
confidence before the, you know,

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and the guys once it goes 
through the engineering, heaps 

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of other studies as well. 
But there is deposits that sort 

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of lend themselves to having a 
more, you know, better 

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continuity and others that are 
less commodities. 

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Some commodities are just 
generally a little bit more 

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simpler from a geological point 
of view and deposits can be. 

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So, yeah. 
And that's kind of, I guess 

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where some of the grey area 
comes in. 

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What are you? 
What are some examples of that 

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something? 
What's a simple a simple 1? 

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You could be pretty confident on
inferred and the other end of 

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the spectrum. 
It's like you need to drill the 

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living shit out of this to 
really get an understanding. 

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Look, I'll just go by 
commodities. 

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Gold will always need more 
drilling generally than say some

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base metals, but it is hard to 
just put them into a couple of 

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different boxes. 
So yeah, look, you can get 

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really complicated VMSS and 
simpler gold, but generally 

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speaking, gold having nugget 
does need a little bit more 

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00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,520
drilling than some other 
commodities. 

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00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,600
And like poor like what about 
like a porphyry system for gold?

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00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,720
Like a big A a bulky one? 
Would that need less confidence 

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00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,120
or there is a nuggety factor 
within the porphyry that can? 

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00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:34,760
Yeah, really. 
Influence it. 

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00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,560
Yeah. 
So if you're giving bulk, 

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obviously the grade is usually a
bit lower. 

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00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,280
So, you know, in terms of having
to get in the reminder and find 

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00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,360
it in the right spot, there's a 
less risk around selectivity and

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00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,800
things like that. 
So yeah, look, you know, 

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generally speaking, the simpler 
it is, you could get away a bit 

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00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,880
less drilling, but that's that's
not a rule that's gonna hold 

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00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,120
true everywhere. 
So that's giving it a nice vague

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00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,640
answer. 
Yeah, no, no, but it's like 

200
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,280
that's geology way. 
That's why 'cause I try to 

201
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,920
simplify things. 
But if if it was that simple, 

202
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,680
you wouldn't need to exist. 
So you got to make sure you make

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00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:08,520
it sound as complicated as 
possible so everyone comes to 

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00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:11,720
you for the studies. 
Jill, you, you mentioned 

205
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,560
exploration targets. 
What do you think of them? 

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00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,880
In general. 
In general, yeah. 

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00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:17,560
I think there's a place for 
them. 

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00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,120
I think perhaps the use of them 
is is still people aren't always

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00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:22,840
100% sure when they should or 
they shouldn't. 

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00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,520
But there I think there is a 
place, particularly if you're in

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00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,560
the junior end, where you have 
enough information to be able to

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00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:30,920
give some sort of conceptual 
idea of what's out there. 

213
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,240
But I think it's a big sort of 
elastic band in terms of what 

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00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,520
everybody does. 
When did they come in? 

215
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,120
When did exploration targets 
become a thing? 

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00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,560
That's just a good point. 
Like it's probably something, I 

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00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:47,560
mean, prior to 2018, nineteen, I
wouldn't have done 1. 

218
00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:51,360
So I'm not actually sure if 
there's actually a moment 

219
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,120
whether it was in. 
Yeah, maybe it was in 2012. 

220
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,280
It's kind of like someone does 
one and then you I say it's all 

221
00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,760
good to do it. 
So they could do it. 

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00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,360
Well, this. 
Is the thing right with the ASX,

223
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:03,840
there is a lot of like precedent
stuff. 

224
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,440
So obviously, you know, joke 
will tell you something. 

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00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,320
But, and we'll have, I'll have 
conversations with some people 

226
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,240
where they, you know, they'll 
say, can we do this? 

227
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,440
And I, you know, say here's 
here's joke, this is what you 

228
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,400
should do. 
And then they'll pull out like 3

229
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,240
precedents that have already 
gone out public that don't 

230
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,160
really talk to that. 
And that's not necessarily means

231
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,480
you should set the bar like 
that, but it does make it hard 

232
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,960
to, you know, sort of support 
and and push forward what you 

233
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,480
need to happen when you're 
putting out a jerk when 

234
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,760
something's already gone out. 
That's, you know, that's sort of

235
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,520
pull the rubber band hugely more
than you would no. 

236
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,160
As the as the study gurus, do 
you use, do you use deal with 

237
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,720
the ISX at all or that's all on 
the companies that engage you? 

238
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,720
The companies as I understand 
it, have like a representative, 

239
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,120
so you know, chain jump in if 
you want as well, but they 

240
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,320
usually have an ASICS 
representative. 

241
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,600
So if we've got any questions or
this clarifications required, 

242
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,040
they'll go back to their 
representative. 

243
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,400
That's my understanding. 
It's hard for us to get direct 

244
00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:58,520
access. 
Would that be? 

245
00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:59,480
Fair. 
Yeah, that's right. 

246
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:01,680
Yeah. 
This this whole kind of process 

247
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,160
from, you know, the, the, the 
resource infill all the way 

248
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,800
through like all the study 
process, it's just it's it's de 

249
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,360
risking, right. 
That's what's happening in this 

250
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,160
process. 
You're you're building your 

251
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,600
confidence in the ore body and 
its capability of being a an 

252
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,480
economic thing to mine. 
And the highest degree of 

253
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,680
confidence of that is that at 
the production of the, you know,

254
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,960
when the DFS is finalised and 
FID is announced, right? 

255
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,480
But are they kind of like with 
your amalgamated history of 

256
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,720
seeing it go wrong? 
Are they sometimes a bunch of 

257
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,960
clues along the way of when like
crappy work might have been done

258
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,040
that didn't actually have the 
highest degrees of confidence? 

259
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,520
That's a good question. 
I think where where you've seen 

260
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,720
projects go wrong, it's easy in 
hindsight, but quite often 

261
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,280
there'll be one thing that goes 
wrong. 

262
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,480
You know, it might be the 
resource and unfortunately, if 

263
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,120
it is, if the resource does 
underperform everything from 

264
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,240
that point on, the mining, you 
know, the economics, the 

265
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,360
productivities, everything, the 
cut off grade, all based on that

266
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,160
resource. 
And if that resource is a bit 

267
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,160
out ten, 2030% out, that could 
blow the project up very 

268
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,640
quickly. 
So for me, the resource is 

269
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,680
pretty much, you know, that's 
what you're starting with, 

270
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:12,280
that's the ingredients of your 
project. 

271
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,440
So that needs to be right and 
skimping on a resource or not 

272
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,480
doing, you know, peer review and
and that sort of thing is, is 

273
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,680
fraught with danger. 
So, yeah. 

274
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,640
And then obviously as you go 
along, all those inputs become 

275
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,200
important at the right time. 
And then, you know, we've seen 

276
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,800
projects that have, you know, 
the resource wrong mining 

277
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:40,720
method, issues with paste, you 
know, issues with community, you

278
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,320
know, they can really blow a 
project up. 

279
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,160
So there's so many inputs and 
all of them require that level 

280
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,760
of diligence to get your final 
product. 

281
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,960
And you know, you can't, you 
can't have one thing fail, you 

282
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,680
know, or you know, obviously, 
because that can just buy a 

283
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,840
project up. 
So yeah, it's important to get 

284
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,920
everything right. 
And what about the the arsenal 

285
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,120
that you're given? 
When do they do they ever put 

286
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,800
constraints? 
I suppose when you're talking 

287
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,240
about infrastructure and the 
design and everything, because 

288
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,040
you could judge up a mine and 
make it the as easiest as 

289
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,600
possible with the best 
infrastructure in place to make 

290
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,240
it very efficient. 
But when you're as the person, 

291
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,280
as the entity that's doing the 
study and given the options, 

292
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,560
you've got constraints on the 
amount of capital that you can 

293
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,400
spend, which affects the optimal
mind design and everything. 

294
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,920
Is that is the onus on you then 
to? 

295
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,840
Is there a lot more pressure to 
deliver an optimum result 

296
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,680
really? 
You know, any engineer worth 

297
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,880
their weight will understand 
what an engineer's job is, and 

298
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,320
it's to get the most out of the 
least resources. 

299
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,200
So you need to go in with a 
mindset of fit for purpose. 

300
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,480
And yeah, you do need to look 
at, you know, you got to look at

301
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,800
a project the last five years a 
bit differently, the one that's 

302
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,480
going to last 25 years, you 
know, when it comes to the 

303
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,000
quality of the buildings, you 
know, and you know, you know, do

304
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,440
you need to future proof the 
ventilation fan system or will 

305
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,800
that be just fine? 
And later on down the track, if 

306
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,880
the mine gets bigger, we'll put 
a bit better one on. 

307
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:16,120
So I think, you know, growing up
in WA and, and like most of our 

308
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,920
people here, they're pretty 
tough minds to make dollars out 

309
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,240
of. 
So we've, we've kind of got ADNA

310
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,840
and especially in Australia and 
WA of really doing things pretty

311
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,680
tight. 
So there's not too many gold 

312
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,520
plated mines that you see over 
here. 

313
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,960
You go to different parts of the
world, you'll see more gold 

314
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,400
plated mines than you see here. 
So yeah, I don't think there's 

315
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,120
AI, don't think there's a lot of
people out there gold plating 

316
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,040
mines. 
I think people do the, you know,

317
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,080
the Holden Commodore rather than
the Ferrari type mentality when 

318
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,120
it comes to building a mine. 
Couple Are you Falcons out 

319
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,280
there? 
Yeah, well, nothing wrong with 

320
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,160
an IU. 
Still works. 

321
00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,080
So when we think of the scoping 
study stage and a company puts 

322
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,119
up two potential scenarios, 
there's a few examples. 11 is 

323
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,960
chalice, that's sort of a recent
one that comes to mind. 

324
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,839
Off the top of my head. 
It was a sort of 15 and a 30 

325
00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:13,000
million tonne per annum example.
But more generally, are they 

326
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,200
trying to see what the market 
kind of thinks of the two 

327
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,599
scenarios or why isn't this 
decision sort of made in the 

328
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,839
process by the management team 
and just one of them put forward

329
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:27,280
to the market? 
Yeah, well, we didn't get that 

330
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,960
job so can't talk for 
experience. 

331
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,960
What would you But no look, it's
that is a really complicated 

332
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,280
project compared to most mines. 
Yeah, you know, metallurgically 

333
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,000
there's lots, lots of things 
going on and therefore there's 

334
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,760
lots of options. 
So, you know, and poor bug is 

335
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,880
the commodity price would have, 
you know, I think it was 

336
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,640
Palladium half during their 
study time. 

337
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,400
Like how do you run a study 
properly when you've got things 

338
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,240
moving? 
You've got so many dials and 

339
00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,880
knobs, it's pretty tough. 
So I do sympathise with where 

340
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,520
their, you know, their journey. 
And yeah, but I think to go back

341
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,560
to your original question, the 
study phase being scoping, you 

342
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,760
would be looking at all 
different things at that point 

343
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,480
in time. 
But unfortunately, when the more

344
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,800
work you do, sometimes the more 
options you find and you know, 

345
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,720
you can study these things for 
the next decade. 

346
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,160
But I mean, it's amazing 
orebody. 

347
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,360
I think there will be a project 
there one day and they're 

348
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:30,600
working through it now. 
So yeah, it's just a, it's just 

349
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,960
a complicated mind, you know, 
compared to compared to most. 

350
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,040
I've got another one just just 
quickly the appropriate amount 

351
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,840
to to sort of spend on these 
different phases of projects. 

352
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,720
I've had this number in my head 
for ages that the right amount 

353
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,520
to spend on a DFS is. 
Might be quoting it wrong here. 

354
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,080
Is 3% of the MPV just a random 
rule of thumb? 

355
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,960
Does that stack up at all or is 
that completely wrong? 

356
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,440
Have you heard that? 
One Well, I think people need to

357
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,680
spend more on this stuff. 
Goes with that I gave you the 

358
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,120
layout I need to. 
Hold an extra, make a shit light

359
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,360
out of there. 
Yeah. 

360
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,800
Now look, I don't know what that
number is. 

361
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,320
You know, we, we are only a part
of the study. 

362
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,600
You know, there's obviously a 
part of a study that'll include 

363
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,920
things like geotechnical 
drilling, include pace field 

364
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,200
test work, you know, lots and 
lots of different things that we

365
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,760
don't directly do. 
So yeah, I'm not sure what that 

366
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,440
number is, but I do know that 
there are lots of cost and time 

367
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,240
pressures during study phases 
that we're always faced with. 

368
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,920
And I think that is something 
that people need to be more 

369
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,040
realistic about when it comes to
study phases and spend money at 

370
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,680
that point in time because, 
yeah, like I said before, you 

371
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,680
know, you can make some 
assumptions early on that can 

372
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,920
cost you a lot down the at the 
end of the day, you might find 

373
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:02,800
you've made some capital 
decisions that are not quite 

374
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,360
right because didn't look hard 
enough into it at the early 

375
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:08,240
stages. 
So. 

376
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,040
Yeah, I can't stress how 
important it is to do the study 

377
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:14,960
system properly. 
You know, go through your 

378
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,640
scoping and spend a lot of time 
on your pre feasibility and then

379
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,560
finalise it with your 
feasibility station. 

380
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,040
I should. 
Cut you off. 

381
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:31,040
Should we be sceptical of like 
the, the, the, the teams that 

382
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,720
decide to manage their own kind 
of study work streams where they

383
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,920
don't necessarily rely on, I've 
got this kind of hypothesis that

384
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,320
a lot of times mines get built, 
they're kind of marginal and the

385
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,400
numbers that sort of come to the
market, especially if they 

386
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,480
manage their own studies, they 
might be kind of squeezing 

387
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,960
things a little bit or, or 
taking a very optimistic view on

388
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,080
some of the capital or operating
cost components. 

389
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,280
And that's just to sort of paint
a rosy enough picture for the 

390
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,720
thing to actually get finance in
the 1st place, and then things 

391
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,040
go kind of tits up. 
Yeah, I think you need to be 

392
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,360
sceptical, but there are some 
owner teams that are doing 

393
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:07,880
really good work. 
Yeah, you know, so I think, I 

394
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,080
think you kind of need, they 
need to prove that it's a 

395
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,440
reasonable study and sometimes 
that's a some peer review or 

396
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,400
they'll farm out parts of that 
study. 

397
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,440
But yeah, look, it's in their 
best interest to get the project

398
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,800
going generally, but it's not in
their best interest to fail 

399
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:33,000
either, you know. 
So yeah, I think, I think most 

400
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,240
teams that take it on themselves
will get the right people to do 

401
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:37,880
it. 
So they. 

402
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,760
Also have, you know, there is 
that ownership thing as well, 

403
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,280
you know, so I don't think you 
could sort of put it into the 

404
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,120
bucket where it's just like 
they've done it themselves. 

405
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,240
So they they have ulterior 
motives. 

406
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,880
If it does go well, they have to
deliver on it. 

407
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,040
Yeah, If we go back, probably 
our first big job, if I go way 

408
00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:00,920
back when I worked with Sapphire
Resources on Degrusa and they 

409
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,360
did the study themselves. 
Martin Reed did that and he's, 

410
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,080
he's done more studies than 
we've had hot dinners and he got

411
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,080
us in to do the mining component
of it. 

412
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,400
So we, we sat in there like an 
employee and did the mining 

413
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,160
component, but the study come 
out as a sand fire study and it 

414
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,080
was a good study and you know, 
it worked well and executed 

415
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,120
well. 
So, so that's that's done, you 

416
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:28,680
know, not often often, but it is
done. 

417
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,880
Probably is going to spend more 
time looking at, you know, the 

418
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,400
inputs around what's gone into 
it as opposed to necessarily 

419
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,960
he's done it. 
Help that great help there for 

420
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,880
sure. 
Shout out Tristan Somerford. 

421
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,640
How about how competitive is the
consulting tendering process? 

422
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:51,480
So, so there's a there's a big 
hotshot study that's coming up. 

423
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,960
Entech want to get their hands 
on it and I'll assume everyone 

424
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,960
else does. 
Is it a very competitive 

425
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,520
landscape? 
Is it like Burn Cut and bar 

426
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,200
Minko fighting over a contract? 
Yeah, a little bit. 

427
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,240
And, and it's probably a good 
comparison when you look at the 

428
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,960
underground contracting space 
because that's where I come from

429
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,840
as well. 
Elton, rest in peace. 

430
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,840
So the answer is yes, it is 
competitive, but it also does 

431
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,800
rely on relationships. 
And you know, there'll be people

432
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,240
that will come to us just 
because they've worked with us 

433
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,640
before and there'll be no 
competition. 

434
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,680
We just get the work. 
And some of our people that are 

435
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,600
in our space, that'll be the 
same for them as well. 

436
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,440
We won't even get a shoe in. 
We won't even be able to put a 

437
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:40,320
tender in, so I would say 
probably only less than half of 

438
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:44,520
the work we get we would be have
to compete for and the rest 

439
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,440
would just be return, return 
work. 

440
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,800
So if you we go back to Degruta,
your first one, one of your 

441
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,240
first, well, is that probably 
what 14 years ago? 

442
00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,360
Yeah, it was 2010 and 2011. 
How does the the how do how do 

443
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,640
studies evolved and probably 
yours particularly from from 

444
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,360
that one to what what you do 
now? 

445
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,680
Like does I assume there's just 
a bucket load of learnings from 

446
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,640
studies And then give yourself 
the do you think you have a 

447
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,560
better statistical chance now of
executing a better study based 

448
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,920
on what you learn? 
Or is it it's just a continually

449
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,920
evolving environment now the 
bloody lithium comes in and just

450
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,920
confuses the hell out of 
everyone. 

451
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,600
But does the skills and 
expertise evolve over time and 

452
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,880
the efficiency of it? 
Yeah, definitely. 

453
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,960
I think the software has come a 
long way in that time. 

454
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,920
And, and I think for, for us 
people that step out of 

455
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,080
operations and go into study 
work, they've got to understand 

456
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,960
that you that the work is 
different. 

457
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,640
And, you know, you don't have to
worry about, you know, levels 

458
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,160
being one in 50 and, you know, 
making sure that the sumps one 

459
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,720
in six and all of this, you just
do a design that's got the right

460
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,960
amount of metres in it. 
So your levels will be flat. 

461
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,840
You know, if you try and do the 
work at the same level of 

462
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,520
diligence, you think someone's 
going to execute it, then it'll 

463
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,160
take you too long. 
So you need to do it a lot 

464
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,080
faster and obviously the tools 
have changed a lot in the world.

465
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:19,040
Back in the day it was more 
surpak and more data mining. 

466
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,080
And as we know now Deswick have 
really got a lot of the market. 

467
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,440
So we tend to use that a lot 
more now because a lot of our 

468
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,320
clients use that. 
So yeah, so I think software has

469
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,560
changed a bit as well, made 
things a bit quicker. 

470
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,560
What's the reality of working on
a study? 

471
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,880
Are you working with the client 
every day? 

472
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,320
Are you touching base every 
couple days or what is actually 

473
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840
it's? 
Probably normal would be at 

474
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,200
least once a week. 
Yeah, yeah. 

475
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,960
But we've we've worked in 
people's offices as well. 

476
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,600
Like even in recent times. 
Yeah, someone will spend few 

477
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,160
days a week in someone's office 
or or we've had the client 

478
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,680
working in our office as well 
and what's that's good? 

479
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,320
What's the sort of standard 
period for for a scoping study? 

480
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,160
How long is that contract? 
How long will you be? 

481
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,240
Working on it. 
How long is a bit of string? 

482
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,760
Yeah, it's a, it's a good 
question. 

483
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,360
I know what I say will be half 
the amount of time that GM Dan 

484
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,600
Donald will say. 
So I'll get in trouble for this.

485
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,040
But, you know, you're probably 
talking, you know, two or three 

486
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,520
months for a scoping study. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

487
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,160
Jill, you mentioned earlier as 
well looking at the studies and 

488
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,120
maybe honing in on a couple 
numbers, if it's been an in 

489
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:30,200
house one, look more broadly in 
house or done by another mob. 

490
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,840
What are the sort of inputs you 
guys may be on a Geo side and on

491
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,960
a sort of mining engineering 
side. 

492
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,800
What are the key inputs you'll 
look at first if it's a non 

493
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,880
Ntech study? 
Yeah. 

494
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,400
So I'll go first. 
Yeah. 

495
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,320
So for if it's a non intex 
studies, yeah, all right. 

496
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,320
So if we if we were to pick it 
up and just be looking through 

497
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,680
it. 
Yeah, and see sort of where they

498
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:53,640
messed up. 
Red flag. 

499
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,680
Well, everyone thinks they can 
look through something and see 

500
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,840
what someone's like Shane said 
before hindsight, it's a 

501
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,560
wonderful thing. 
But a couple of things that you 

502
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,480
know, I would look at straight 
up is just what they use for a 

503
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,960
reporting cut off grade and what
their grade is. 

504
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:11,480
So the reason being sort of 
talks to the grade tonnage 

505
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,240
curve. 
You know, how many of the tonnes

506
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,600
sit right between where they've 
actually reported it and what 

507
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,720
they've got a minor. 
And because the more the tonnage

508
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,720
that's in there, the harder they
have to work to get the, you 

509
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,880
know, select what's ore and 
waste, right? 

510
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,040
So that's one of the kind of key
things. 

511
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,120
Get the GT curve out and have a 
look what everyone puts that in.

512
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,680
But in terms of a, you know, if 
I'm actually having a look from 

513
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,520
a diligence point of view, you 
know, looking through the study,

514
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,000
there's also who's contributed 
to it. 

515
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,160
Yeah. 
I think you've said that before.

516
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,160
The first thing I'd look at is 
who's. 

517
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,160
Done it, yeah. 
Like the individuals, I think 

518
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,120
experiences is worth a lot when 
it comes to study work. 

519
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,720
You know, have they done similar
type projects before? 

520
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,680
How did those projects go? 
But on the mining side, you 

521
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,920
know, the first thing we'll have
a look at is the mining method 

522
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,520
selection. 
Have a look at the core, make 

523
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,080
sure it makes sense compared to 
the mining method selection. 

524
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,760
So just that, you know, I'm 
talking about an hour's work, 

525
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,200
you know, just the first thing 
I'd look at and and then cost 

526
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,960
some productivity. 
How how productive do they think

527
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,120
the fleet's going to be? 
Are they being realistic? 

528
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:20,720
Where is the project? 
So yeah, you just have a quick, 

529
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,240
quick look over at a few key 
things and and then do a bit 

530
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,120
more work from there. 
How do you know? 

531
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,000
How do you know what an 
unrealistic, like unrealistic 

532
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,600
expectations of productivity 
look like? 

533
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:38,320
We've got a, we've got a pretty 
good database, Damien and he's, 

534
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,680
that's his job, right? 
So cost and productivity. 

535
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,840
Yeah, but he's underground. 
It's like how many? 

536
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,200
How many metres development? 
Yeah, that's right. 

537
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,400
So yeah, he's a wealth of 
knowledge. 

538
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,480
So we will sit down and have a 
look at it, have a look at all 

539
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,800
the key assumptions and to, to 
make sure they look realistic. 

540
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,240
So yeah, we've, we've got that 
in here. 

541
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,880
So we've got, you know, we, we 
know what, what a jumbo's going 

542
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,640
to get. 
That's, that's the start of, of 

543
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,280
the productivity, right. 
So you got to get the metres. 

544
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,280
So the jumbo's the first thing 
you look at most important thing

545
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,560
for the start of a mind. 
Do they think they're going to 

546
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,680
get 200 metres a month in the 
decline or 150 or 120? 

547
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,920
And that, and that'll change 
depending on which state you're 

548
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,440
in or which country you're in as
well. 

549
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,560
So, so there's there are a 
couple of quick and dirty we'll,

550
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,200
we'll have a bit of a look at 
just to see what they think 

551
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,360
they're going to get. 
Because you know, when it comes 

552
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,720
to NPV, if you if you're a 
little bit out and you start 

553
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,640
going to and you're going to 
start production six months 

554
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,240
later, that's going to make a 
big difference to a project. 

555
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,000
So. 
I think the, you know, around 

556
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,920
resources, there's always, you 
know, in terms of feasibilities 

557
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,080
and the resources side of 
things, a lot of the risks 

558
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,960
haven't changed a lot. 
Talking back to that question 

559
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,360
you had before about, you know, 
has it got better or have we got

560
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,000
better? 
There's there's still a lot of 

561
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,840
risks that are similar as you 
know, geological complexity, 

562
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,880
people classifying, you know, 
potentially where it's not 

563
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,520
supported by dual spacing. 
Those sort of things are kind of

564
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,920
recurrent themes that they keep 
coming back. 

565
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,400
So you know, in terms of 
feasibilities and have do you 

566
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760
get better with experience? 
When you're looking at things, 

567
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,760
you might, you will probably 
look for flags quicker, but a 

568
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,600
lot of the risks around 
feasibilities do come back to 

569
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,920
similar things. 
Like one of the key things is, 

570
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,840
you know, there's one resource 
that underpins hell of a lot of 

571
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,240
other work and value. 
And, and that resource can is 

572
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,640
one person's view on, on 
something. 

573
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,800
And if it's a simple ore body, 
then the risk of them being too 

574
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,960
far out, it's not too bad. 
But there's no such thing as 

575
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,720
really a straightforward ore 
body. 

576
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,440
So I think, you know, one of the
things for feasibilities is good

577
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,360
if and we've had a few clients 
do this, they'll get more than 

578
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,360
one resource done. 
They don't really pick it, pick 

579
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,360
the best one, but they might run
internally and have us do an 

580
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,600
external and they'll sort of 
have a look at what the 

581
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,800
difference is. 
And if there is a lot of 

582
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,320
difference, we'll try and 
understand what that is. 

583
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,720
So does one group did three and 
then that also gives feedback to

584
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,640
management and board in terms of
look, you know, we're getting 

585
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,720
these big variations before it 
goes into the study and the guys

586
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,480
do all their work on everything.
So 3 different Geo teams using 

587
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,760
the same data. 
What resource do you spit out? 

588
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,840
Is that the analysis each would 
do? 

589
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,400
So they would sort of act 
independently. 

590
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Yeah, and just come up. 
And so the idea being you get an

591
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,000
idea of exactly the variation in
your raw body. 

592
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,280
And it's not information that 
everybody wants to hear, but 

593
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,680
it's probably good to get an 
idea of what that would be at 

594
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:35,840
the start. 
And if there's a lot of 

595
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,920
variation, might be an 
indication you should do some 

596
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,000
more dense dual spacing in the 
first place. 

597
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,720
As it comes down to just 
infilling more information. 

598
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,360
Right. 
So how so how many? 

599
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,000
Is there many cases where a 
company comes to you and said, 

600
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,920
right, we've this is our 
resource. 

601
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,600
Or like, even if you've got to 
do the resource and they want to

602
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,400
do a study and I think it's 
enough confidence that you're 

603
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,320
like, and as you said, the the 
whole study is essentially 

604
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,960
underpinned by that resource. 
You're Jill walks into the room 

605
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,400
and says. 
And she looks like that. 

606
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,560
Too bad lean forward with the 
head down. 

607
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,720
You know when Jill's serious. 
Like we cannot do this study 

608
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,920
unless there is a better drill 
density. 

609
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Full stop. 
Oh, it's an easy way to make 

610
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,400
money. 
Just do more drilling. 

611
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,560
But yeah, look, the, I think 
those that are happy to really 

612
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,880
understand where they're going 
with their project, they'll ask 

613
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,240
those questions. 
Yep. 

614
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,440
And they'll seek outside 
information like help or, you 

615
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,800
know, not say help, But, you 
know, systems are an opinion and

616
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,080
they're open to being able to 
talk about different inputs and 

617
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,120
opinions as opposed to, you 
know, this is how I want it to 

618
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,680
be and this is the path we're 
going on. 

619
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,880
And any news that sort of 
disagrees with that gets 

620
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,240
discarded along the way. 
So. 

621
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,400
Yeah. 
And most companies are like the 

622
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,960
most, most companies in this 
country anyway are usually 

623
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,360
pretty amicable and work 
together and like it's, it's 

624
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,360
there's a good relationship or 
is there sometimes some it's a 

625
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,120
bit argy bargy with with like 
obviously what you think is a 

626
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,960
the studier is the best going to
be the best outcome versus the 

627
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,600
capital that I want to outlay 
for all that work. 

628
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,080
Yeah, I think they're just 
discussions to have. 

629
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,560
So I I've. 
Been a few discussions over the 

630
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,720
years, but not all clients 
they're, you know, happy with 

631
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,960
what you say when you tell them 
it's not as good as what they 

632
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,720
thought it was going to be. 
So yeah, it's not all plain 

633
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,800
sailing, that's for sure. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

634
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:29,720
No, there is. 
Yeah. 

635
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,560
Jill's probably thinking what am
I allowed to say? 

636
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,240
But if you said it's all. 
Right, she's worried I'm going. 

637
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,520
To say that's what it is, she 
said. 

638
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,480
Too much. 
But sometimes Jill doesn't even 

639
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,960
get involved, right, because the
client will come to us and say 

640
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,320
here's our resource, can you do 
a mining study on that? 

641
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,360
So completely bypassed 
whatsoever and we take that and 

642
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,040
we'll obviously make sure the 
metal adds up in the model and 

643
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,840
do all our mining type cheques 
of the resource. 

644
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,640
But whether that resource has 
been signed off by some other 

645
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,200
competent person, you have to 
assume. 

646
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,480
It works. 
Yeah, that's right. 

647
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,640
So you and. 
She's bypassed and. 

648
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,120
Then so then the the onus and 
the liability is on that 

649
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,080
competent. 
Person. 

650
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,040
So yeah, somebody else has 
signed off on it, whether that 

651
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,400
could be internal or external or
whatever. 

652
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,880
And then I suppose broad 
liability for the for a study 

653
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,880
you're if you're you're putting 
out a study who who does take 

654
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,520
the onus you or the company like
is there in terms of this isn't 

655
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,159
an insurance ad by the way, 
probably could be, but how does 

656
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,480
that work? 
Well, the, the study that we put

657
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,000
out is, is, is our work and 
we're accountable for that work 

658
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,320
that, that we've signed off on. 
So if it's a, a reserve, you 

659
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,880
know, we've, we've signed off a 
reserve that competent person 

660
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,199
is, is liable for the work 
that's been included in that. 

661
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,280
They don't have control over all
the inputs because they'll get 

662
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,640
experts that'll do the resource.
I'm talking mining only now 

663
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:02,520
though, you know, resource 
someone who's done the geotech 

664
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,000
work might be done third party. 
So you know, and, and they're 

665
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,880
the competent person, you know, 
or the, the expert, I should 

666
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,680
say, for that sort of work. 
There's only so much a, you 

667
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,160
know, a mining type person can 
look into to make sure things 

668
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,640
add up. 
But somebody else's accountable 

669
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,760
for the work that that feeds 
into it because you can't 

670
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,280
control everything. 
Yeah, and. 

671
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,400
What so if you want to talk like
speaking geotechnically 

672
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,560
specifically like say you put a 
study out in the record, there's

673
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,720
recommended all the proposed 
ground support patterns and 

674
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:37,040
pillar spacings. 
And say when that mine gets into

675
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,600
production and there is an 
incident, geotechnical incident 

676
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,920
and it could be a failure of 
ground support or a something to

677
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,640
do with pillars or something. 
Is there any liability on the 

678
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,880
consultant that put that forward
in the study or does the company

679
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,320
then take on that 
responsibility? 

680
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,280
Well, I think, I think it's 
almost the studies pretty much 

681
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,960
completed at that point in time.
And then you have a geotechnical

682
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,400
team that is accountable from 
that point on. 

683
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,520
So they're doing the design, 
they're doing the ground support

684
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,080
design, they're doing the 
reviews underground, they're 

685
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,440
doing the checking. 
So the study's almost. 

686
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,080
Old news about almost gone. 
Yeah. 

687
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,080
Yeah, that's the thing. 
The study's like a moment in 

688
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,240
time. 
The moment in time, Yeah. 

689
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,040
And a mine is evolving. 
And our spreadsheets are so, 

690
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,960
like, prescriptive and accurate.
But the reality of a mine is so 

691
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,200
different to a spreadsheet too. 
Yeah, that's why people, you 

692
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,520
know, there was a question 
people sort of ask at what point

693
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,040
do feasibilities sort of go out 
of date? 

694
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,240
Yeah, with with everything that 
was changing particularly on 

695
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,760
costs and pricing, you know, in 
the last couple of years I 

696
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,200
think. 
The view on that, are they out 

697
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,520
of date? 
What, like a month after? 

698
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,400
I think obviously anything pre 
COVID is out of date, right, 

699
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,960
Because costs have increased so 
much Yeah, quantity prices has 

700
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,480
changed a lot in that time, so. 
Yeah. 

701
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,640
I think there's like there's a 
couple of conversations. 

702
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,120
Nothing, nothing actually based 
on any real information, but 

703
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,520
just just talk on the street, 
like people sort of. 

704
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,760
Yeah. 
Like around that time, you know,

705
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,440
two years or so and you could 
two to three years you could be.

706
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,160
Well, you might not need a clean
sheet of paper study. 

707
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,440
You know, you just update all 
the assumptions and you know, 

708
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,800
give it a, give it a revamp. 
On that sort of topic, are 

709
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,400
there, are there other sort of 
trends more broadly, say since 

710
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,440
you started Ntech 15 years ago, 
you know, things you have to do 

711
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,960
in studies you didn't once have 
to do, other things that kind of

712
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,960
stand out or is it, you know, 
just a more simple evolution in 

713
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,280
the study process? 
Yeah, I don't think there's been

714
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,800
any significant changes. 
I don't know, Jill on your side.

715
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Yeah. 
Now look, it's pretty boring on 

716
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:41,640
that front. 
You know, there's, there's 

717
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,560
probably, I think moving forward
there's going to be a lot more 

718
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,800
emphasis on, you know, ESG than 
there has been in the past. 

719
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,760
There's obviously a lot of whole
different conversation and 

720
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,880
podcasts on that. 
So from my point of view, 

721
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,120
though, there's not a lot of a 
lot of changes. 

722
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,360
I think some of the 
conversations around risk are a 

723
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,080
lot more developed and in terms 
of what you can, you know, what 

724
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,440
we're now putting out in our 
studies is a lot more defined 

725
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,440
than perhaps it was. 
And making sure risk is 

726
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,120
communicated downstream. 
It's a big part of the 

727
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,920
conversation, probably, you 
know, all the way along. 

728
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,880
So that's outlining to the 
client what the what you sort of

729
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,200
deemed to be the top three or 
top five big risks. 

730
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,880
Yeah. 
Also, yeah, to make sure it's at

731
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,480
the front of everything, not 
buried at the back. 

732
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,480
Everyone gets rated and then you
know, feasibilities have their 

733
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,800
own sensitivity inbuilt in it. 
We have some, you know, in terms

734
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,160
of software you have from a 
geology point of view, we have a

735
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,320
few different ways we can tackle
that now, which is really quick 

736
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,320
and efficient and, and sort of 
test like we're talking of, you 

737
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,880
know, before about risk around 
resources. 

738
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,800
We can test some of their 
sensitivities pretty quickly. 

739
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,120
Shane, you mentioned the the NPV
before as well, the discount 

740
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,240
rate, is that just shove down 
your throat. 

741
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,080
Do you have any say or any 
recommendation? 

742
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,960
No say so. 
We will comment if we think 

743
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,400
someone's been a bit 
unrealistic. 

744
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,960
What is your rule of thumb? 
Thoughts on discount, right? 

745
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,400
Well, if it's too far from 8%, 
you're asking questions, right? 

746
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,000
Yeah, yeah. 
And when did it 8 become the 

747
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,800
number instead of five? 
I think 8 was the number. 

748
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,040
Should have been the number, 
yeah. 

749
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:16,560
Yeah, I think obviously 
inflation dropped to, you know, 

750
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,640
an interest rates dropped there 
at 1 stage. 

751
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,120
So that's when people were 
pushing 5, but before that it 

752
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,400
was 8. 
And So what cases shouldn't be 

753
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,080
8? 
What's your big factors driving 

754
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:27,960
that? 
I don't. 

755
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,920
I'm no expert in that field. 
I just ask questions. 

756
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,200
Why isn't that? 
I'd argue that eight's the wrong

757
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,440
number too. 
I think of project project 

758
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,360
finance. 
You're never getting project 

759
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,600
finance debt cheaper than 13%, 
right? 

760
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,920
So if the debt's 13% yet you 
know the equities, the cost of 

761
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,000
equities north of that. 
So your weighted average cost of

762
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,840
capital should be somewhere in 
between like you know those two 

763
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,360
numbers right, the risk free 
rate like. 

764
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,720
AUS government bond is about 5%.
You wouldn't, there'd be no 

765
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,120
mines with a mine life any 
longer than five years ever go. 

766
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,080
And that's a point going that's.
A point, too, yeah. 

767
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,960
Yeah, what now when you do your 
first pass, look at a mine now 

768
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,320
just in terms of and we could 
probably just talk. 

769
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,680
Operating mine or study? 
No, just for a study something 

770
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,640
comes to you what the grades for
a gold mine compared to when you

771
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,520
first started 14 years ago. 
Do the numbers, Yeah. 

772
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,360
Have you had to change your rule
of thumbs of what is a 

773
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:27,880
profitable gold mine? 
It's. 

774
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,040
Probably half. 
Yeah, it's just everything, 

775
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,800
because it used to be like 4 
gramme for an underground, 2 

776
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,400
gramme for an open pit. 
Now it's half of that, isn't it?

777
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,640
It'd be half, yeah. 
Yeah, roughly. 

778
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,800
And was that been a gradual 
thing or is it just in the last 

779
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,840
few years that we've seen these,
I think? 

780
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,960
It's speed up in the last few 
years. 

781
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,400
I remember we did a study not 
that long ago and the reserve 

782
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,200
was sub to grammes for an 
underground and everyone was 

783
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,760
having a heart attack and it's 
like, well, but it works and Oh 

784
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,120
no, we need to get it higher. 
Well, we can't just get it 

785
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,080
higher. 
You know, it's it is what it is.

786
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,880
We we go to one significant 
figure or what do you want us to

787
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,920
do? 
But it worked, right. 

788
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,760
And so I think people's mindsets
have changed. 

789
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,600
So that was about five years 
ago. 

790
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,960
That mind's operating how? 
How many times have you ever 

791
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,920
come across it like the, the, 
you, you see the ore body or you

792
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,560
look at the ore body and you're 
like, you smile, it's not going 

793
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,000
to work. 
And then you actually crunch the

794
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,680
numbers and it works like what? 
Are there any examples where 

795
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,760
you've been very surprised that 
like going through the whole 

796
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,040
process of of of the starting 
now you could you always know 

797
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,960
from the ore body intubation? 
I haven't been surprised. 

798
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,000
Yet I suppose you wouldn't be 
good at your job, would you? 

799
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,680
That's such an interesting 
takeaway access. 

800
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,480
Basically you can. 
You can really tell from the ore

801
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,400
body. 
Oh, look, there's like, like 

802
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,800
Shane was saying before, you 
know, you don't want, you could 

803
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,120
probably maybe one thing moving 
against you, but if you're 

804
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,120
starting off with, you know, the
geology and resource side, 

805
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,640
there's stuff already moving 
against you. 

806
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,760
And then there's some other 
things. 

807
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,360
I don't know, I think maybe when
you've done a few of them, you 

808
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,560
can, you can tell geological 
complexity is huge. 

809
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,080
That's cost all the way along, 
particularly if you don't pick 

810
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,960
it up at the study level and you
experience it as you're trying 

811
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,440
to ramp up. 
It's you know, it's, it's the 

812
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,320
reason why you know, many 
struggle to, you know, in the 

813
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,440
1st yes, year or two to actually
get to where they need to be. 

814
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,360
So I'll weave 2 questions into 
one question just to make it 

815
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,720
hard for you, Jill. 
When, when? 

816
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:30,120
So what are the cases when you 
see a ore body that has a high 

817
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,680
grade on the surface that 
doesn't work, and then on the 

818
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:39,880
opposite to that, an ore body 
where you see a lower grade but 

819
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,520
you like this can work. 
What are the factors outside of 

820
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,520
the grade that make it work and 
not work? 

821
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,720
In terms of I guess and I'll let
change or two how you're going 

822
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:53,240
to mine it, but the higher grade
stuff if we're like talking 

823
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,800
generally speaking tend to be 
perhaps narrower vein stuff. 

824
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,200
So then it goes down to width 
and you know you can have really

825
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,680
good grade, but the width 
doesn't really carry a start And

826
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,920
you know that's something that 
can be a problem. 

827
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,560
And in terms of lower grade, 
well with pricing and everything

828
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,360
the way it is now there's you 
know those sort of things are 

829
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,880
actually meaning you can, you 
can take a lot more bodies 

830
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,920
underground than we could 
probably have done before so. 

831
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,320
Is that, and that's a life 
thing. 

832
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,880
Like it's like you can get so 
much more life out of it because

833
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,920
you can go underground at a 
lower grade now. 

834
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,520
It is like it is, you know, I 
wouldn't, I wouldn't want to 

835
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,360
sort of generalise too much on 
it, but it does change a few 

836
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,280
things. 
Some of the grades we can can 

837
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,560
take out now means sort of what 
was sort of previously 

838
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,120
incremental can be considered 
in, you know, it's just it has 

839
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,680
changed a lot and it's still 
changing in terms of what people

840
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,160
can operate at. 
What what about like uniformity 

841
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,160
and continuity? 
I can't because there's probably

842
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,960
2 minds I can't mention here, 
but how much is that for, 

843
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,280
especially for lower grade 
stuff? 

844
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,800
How much does that that sounds 
like a big driver in making 

845
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,960
lower grade things work. 
Just knowing we, I guess an 

846
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,160
example we've probably seen 
unfortunately far was callous 

847
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,200
and like whether that was either
density or like just not 

848
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,000
continuity of the ore body or 
body. 

849
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,800
And it's just like you might be 
thinking you're getting 

850
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,200
something, but you're just not 
for that period in time. 

851
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,760
I assume that's a pretty big 
bloody driver as well. 

852
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:23,280
Yeah, yeah. 
Look, you know, obviously 

853
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,880
because I'm a GL bang on about 
complexity for the geology. 

854
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,240
But yes, if you are going to 
like go lower grades, the more 

855
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,400
simpler, simpler. 
If it's a tabular kind of ore 

856
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,320
body, yeah, in sandstone, then 
that's a pretty simple thing to 

857
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,640
tackle as opposed to say 
something hitting underground. 

858
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,400
It's it's, you know, hard to 
find, hard to say. 

859
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,920
You know, it's going to cost you
more to get that out. 

860
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,760
And so that kind of eats away 
your margin. 

861
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,120
And what and what, and with open
pits, because we, we, we tend to

862
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,400
focus on underground a bit in 
this corner over here. 

863
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,520
But I'm like my, I've broadened 
my horizons with pits. 

864
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:00,280
So when we talk about you might 
see these pits with these, as 

865
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,000
you said, tabular, it looks, you
know, it looks great on the 

866
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,880
surface, but how the, the mine 
ability of those tabular pits, 

867
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,200
like I assume you can't be 
scraping in great detail on a 

868
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,800
pit like everything get blown up
and spread everywhere. 

869
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,840
Is there what what's involved in
actually mining these 

870
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:25,120
efficiently and like trying to 
maximise the the grade and not 

871
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,480
diluting it with shit flying 
everywhere in a pit? 

872
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,600
Yeah. 
Well, if it's, if it is, I mean,

873
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,000
I'm just trying to get your 
example. 

874
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,320
If something's quite broad and 
tabular, then you're not 

875
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,120
necessarily going to be 
selective within it. 

876
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,000
So it comes down to selectivity.
If you really want to be going 

877
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,400
in and grabbing a bucket here 
and a bucket there, that's not 

878
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,720
how you want to be mining it. 
So for pits, ideally those sort 

879
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:47,760
of deposits where they're, you 
know, sort of tabular go across 

880
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,240
spit floor similar grade, you're
not having to pick the eyes out 

881
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:53,200
of it. 
They will always, they will 

882
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,480
always go better. 
And as most gold open pits, can 

883
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,920
you easily distinguish the awe 
visually or are there somewhere 

884
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,120
it all looks the bloody sign? 
This one I saw today all look 

885
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,680
the bloody sign, but you know 
it's there is usually some sort 

886
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,800
of redeeming feature. 
You're gonna go look a. 

887
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,680
Green tinge. 
Just something. 

888
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:15,880
Which is really good for colour 
blind mining. 

889
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,120
Engineers, yeah, yeah. 
So look, obviously visual bodies

890
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,920
are good, you know, it's just 
ticks one of those boxes. 

891
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,880
Less, less too. 
You have to worry about, you 

892
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,080
know, but this people just need 
to be smarter if they can't see 

893
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,920
it visually. 
You gotta do more work essay for

894
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,280
more background elements and try
and get a bit of a 

895
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,440
characterisation around what 
actually drives your whole body.

896
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,720
Then you can kind of rely on 
proxies to to sort of find your 

897
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:39,400
way around. 
It usually means you've got to 

898
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,920
spend more money on information.
So as long as it comes into your

899
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,160
pockets, it's all good. 
But if the price stays where it 

900
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,840
is, then yeah, everyone can 
drill more. 

901
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:51,640
We spoke about a company a few 
weeks ago, Xanadu. 

902
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,320
You don't have to speak 
specifically to the company, but

903
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,000
the thing we'd heard this was as
the PFS study was coming out is,

904
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,920
you know, from an investor, 
ignore the CapEx. 

905
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,320
That's a Western style CapEx. 
The project is in Mongolia. 

906
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,320
If a Chinese company were to buy
it, they'll slap on their own 

907
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,960
CapEx and they'll be able to do 
it way cheaper. 

908
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:14,680
What do you kind of think of 
this? 

909
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,400
Like I'm curious to get your 
thoughts about the ability of 

910
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,520
sort of companies in different 
countries to significantly mark 

911
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,840
down the CapEx of a project? 
I think it's just got to be 

912
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,200
realistic. 
You know, if that is what it is,

913
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,880
you would want to demonstrate 
that in the study. 

914
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,640
So you, you how do you justify 
that cost and you'd want to see 

915
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,120
that. 
But there's definitely, 

916
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,920
definitely different costs in 
different countries for CapEx, 

917
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,760
for operating equipment 
selection. 

918
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,720
So yeah, countries do make 
massive differences in the 

919
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,960
study. 
So if we're doing a study of the

920
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,200
same ore body in two different 
countries that are quite 

921
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,360
different mining wise, those 
studies would look different. 

922
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:02,000
But, but in this case, when the 
ore, you know, the ore bodies in

923
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,160
one country and you're talking 
about a potential miner from 

924
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,600
Australia versus a potential 
miner from China, is it just 

925
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,920
that they're buying different, 
maybe lower quality in some 

926
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,240
cases, maybe higher quality in 
other cases, equipment, 

927
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:16,480
machinery, these things. 
And and that's what ultimately 

928
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,480
leads to the the massive change.
It's a good question for them 

929
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,960
without knowing much about the 
project, but I think it's bold 

930
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,680
in saying that, you know, we, 
we, we try to put science and 

931
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,880
facts behind the studies. 
So, you know, if there's no 

932
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,320
science and facts behind some of
those assumptions, then yeah, 

933
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,360
you'd you'd definitely be asking
questions. 

934
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,640
It's what and there's probably a
lot of stuff that goes on behind

935
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,320
the scenes that we don't even 
know about or appreciate and 

936
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,840
one's probably like analysis 
owner mining versus contracting.

937
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:53,840
Do you? 
What goes into that? 

938
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,600
It's a good question. 
And you know, I kind of tongue 

939
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,440
in cheek always say when someone
asks us they want to do that is 

940
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,040
what do you want the answer to 
be? 

941
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:09,120
Yeah, because it's again, 
there's there's one, one thing 

942
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:14,760
that's very hard to measure, 
which is of key input to that 

943
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,760
analysis. 
And that is what is the 

944
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,680
productivity that you're going 
to get as an owner operator and 

945
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,720
what is the productivity you're 
going to get with a contractor? 

946
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,840
Are you going to assume, are you
going to assume they're the 

947
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,640
same? 
If so, how? 

948
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:30,280
How are they going to be the 
same? 

949
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,680
Because costs are costs. 
You know, you can go to Sandvik 

950
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,440
by jumbo, you know how much it 
costs diesel, you know how much 

951
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,920
it costs people, You pretty much
know how much they're going to 

952
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,160
cost. 
So the real differences are 

953
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,120
contractor margin and and 
productivity. 

954
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:49,640
And yeah, you know, there's big 
differences in productivities. 

955
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,760
I'm not saying contractors are 
always better and and clients 

956
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,640
are always worse, but they're 
going to be different and you 

957
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,920
need to articulate that in some 
way. 

958
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,240
And so based on your big 
database that Daimos 

959
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:06,920
established, is there a trend 
that of productivity contractor,

960
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,160
verse owner, operator? 
Well, in this state we have a 

961
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:15,200
lot of contractors, right. 
So and, and, and what we tend to

962
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,720
find is owner operators later on
in the mine life and contractors

963
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:23,400
are early on in the mine life. 
So that's, that's probably more 

964
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,760
so the case here in WA than 
anywhere else, hence why our 

965
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,120
contractors are very good and 
why they're all over the world 

966
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:30,960
now. 
So we are very good at 

967
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:36,320
development. 
So I, I don't know if there's a 

968
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,160
big difference because it's 
very, you know, the thing about 

969
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,120
mining, we're not all just 
mining in concrete. 

970
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:43,720
You know, every mine is 
different. 

971
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:46,440
They're different depths, 
they're different hardness in 

972
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,800
rock. 
So you can have the same people 

973
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,800
in different areas going to get,
you know, drastically different 

974
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:52,840
results. 
So it's a. 

975
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,040
It's not an easy answer for that
one. 

976
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,360
And what about the balance 
between development and 

977
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,960
production? 
When your owner operator verse 

978
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,720
contractor like notoriously the 
contractor, it's like they love 

979
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,560
doing development because they 
did historically get paid more 

980
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,400
for development or it keeps all 
the high maintenance jumbo 

981
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,720
operators happy. 
But then it's trying to balance 

982
00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:14,480
that to get the order or out, 
which is the what the client 

983
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:15,720
wants. 
But the you know whether the 

984
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:18,200
contractor mightn't make as much
money off it. 

985
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,320
If the contractor was set up 
that way the would you think 

986
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,800
owner miners are better more 
aligned to get ore out to get 

987
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,640
the the metal rather than 
getting the higher cost 

988
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,280
development done? 
Yeah, I think contractors get 

989
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:37,320
paid on tonnes generally, which 
doesn't necessarily equal good 

990
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,640
dilution and all control. 
So I think that's probably the 

991
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,800
only one that's very difficult 
to align metres. 

992
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,640
It's easy to align, everyone 
wins, but when it comes to 

993
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:53,560
stopping, yeah, it is a bit 
difficult to both have the same 

994
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,360
goal when it comes to that. 
How? 

995
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:02,320
Does geotech impact mine design?
It's apart from geology, it's 

996
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,840
really the, well, it's the 
number two thing, right? 

997
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,600
Because it's all about how big 
your voids can be. 

998
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,160
Yeah. 
We never talk about geotech. 

999
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,640
Yeah, well, we happen to have 
the best geotech going around. 

1000
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,640
Tom who? 
Told me that or that Tom told me

1001
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:23,240
that, Yeah. 
But yeah, we're very, very 

1002
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:26,200
important. 
And you know, I am the world's 

1003
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,320
worst geologists have 0 
interest. 

1004
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,240
But I go, I love going to a 
courtyard because I want to go 

1005
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:35,360
and see the core to see how 
structurally good or bad it is, 

1006
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,600
if it's together or not. 
Am I looking at sticks a coral 

1007
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,480
or trays, a road base? 
You know, because that's going 

1008
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,920
to really tell you the 
difference on how that mine's 

1009
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:48,520
going to perform and the void 
size and yeah, really, really 

1010
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,120
important. 
Gotcha, so bad geotech. 

1011
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,240
The void's got to be smaller. 
Yeah, background. 

1012
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:57,840
Yep, Yep, Yep, background. 
Yeah, definitely the voids and 

1013
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,160
some places you can't actually 
mine it underground, right, 

1014
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,400
right. 
But yeah, definitely the void 

1015
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,440
and it changes the ground 
support and Stopes whether you 

1016
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,800
need paste fill, you can leave 
pillars. 

1017
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,800
So it's it's one of the major 
inputs to mine design selection.

1018
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,960
And for open pits is it? 
Angle all angle. 

1019
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,680
That's that's the main thing. 
So the ore, the ore might be 

1020
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:20,720
nice and solid, but then you 
look at the other side of the 

1021
00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:22,400
core. 
Oh shit, there's an ultra mafic 

1022
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,520
hanging wall. 
So you know your dilution is 

1023
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,400
going to be shit loads. 
Yeah, you have a good look at 

1024
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,120
the hanging wall because that's 
generally what's, you know, 

1025
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,680
what's hanging in your Stopes. 
And then you have a good look in

1026
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,400
the football because that's 
where your decline's going to 

1027
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,040
go. 
So go to the courtyard, have a 

1028
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,960
look at the ore, then go about 
have a look at the next 4 trays 

1029
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:41,720
that way, and have a look at the
next 4 trays that way. 

1030
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:43,960
And then, you know, Oh yeah, 
this would be a good Peace of 

1031
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,960
Mind. 
Courtyard site visits Courtyard 

1032
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:47,800
is like the bit that I want to 
blow my brains out. 

1033
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,480
Get your get your mark and 
there's one, there's one, 

1034
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,760
there's one example, which I I 
don't have the full information 

1035
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,520
on, but I know it's like one of 
the, you know, one of a real big

1036
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,400
up and coming open pit 
sensational. 

1037
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,680
But they're talking about, you 
know, the future underground of 

1038
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,680
it. 
But I'm pretty sure that it has 

1039
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,560
an ultra mafic hanging wall. 
That might be fine to open pit, 

1040
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,200
but then to take that, to take 
that then underground to control

1041
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,960
the grade is like that's going 
to be a big, big challenge. 

1042
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:21,360
I don't know what you're talking
about which one, but but ultra 

1043
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,880
mafic is there's ultramaphic and
ultramaphic. 

1044
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:29,040
Some ultramaphic is very good 
and some is if you look at can 

1045
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,480
belder type ultramaphic that 
where I grew up it can be 

1046
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,240
horrible. 
So yeah, that might be good. 

1047
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:37,040
Ultramaphic. 
I don't know. 

1048
00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:39,080
Yeah. 
Who knows, I'm just hearing that

1049
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,560
geology is still key. 
Yeah, sorry, I'll pay attention 

1050
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,080
to call you. 
You are you are just the the the

1051
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,960
the sponges of the sponge card. 
That's. 

1052
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:50,760
Right. 
Yeah. 

1053
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,080
There's one other component in 
these studies always look at and

1054
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,000
I'm curious where they pluck the
numbers out of the, the 

1055
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,080
contingency. 
So in in a DFS or PFS, it can be

1056
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,680
a relatively, you know, decent, 
decent component, decent amount 

1057
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,880
of money. 
Who picks that number and how's 

1058
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,840
that number picked? 
Generally, client will look at 

1059
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,360
the contingency and it's 
generally around the CapEx, 

1060
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,520
right. 
So, yeah, so that's where it 

1061
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,240
comes from. 
Pretty much everywhere else in 

1062
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:24,560
the study, we just try to make 
realistic numbers, you know, and

1063
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,560
kind of sit in the middle of the
bell curve when it comes to 

1064
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,320
productivities and so forth. 
But CapEx will often have 

1065
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,640
contingency in there which is 
normally led by the client. 

1066
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:36,640
Yeah. 
But that that contingency 

1067
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,240
number, is there like a a rule 
of thumb in the in the CapEx for

1068
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:43,920
the the quantum of it or? 
I'm not sure if there's a a 

1069
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,040
standard number, you know, some 
people use 5, some 10. 

1070
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,400
I think again, it comes to the 
confidence in the number. 

1071
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,000
The less confident you are, 
obviously you're going to make 

1072
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:53,920
it a bit higher. 
Yeah. 

1073
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,200
What it is? 
So what about these, these 

1074
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:00,800
tenders that we see contractors 
tending tendering for a, a mine 

1075
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,280
or a new portal or whatever, 
even if they're, you're pretty 

1076
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,880
sure it's going to one 
contractor, but then you've got 

1077
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,320
all these other ones tender. 
And what's the role in like, you

1078
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,360
know, the numbers that get 
thrown around. 

1079
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,200
I know that contractors have to 
deal with consultants to figure 

1080
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:19,920
out what numbers to put in 
tenders. 

1081
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:25,040
Like what's what's the role you 
guys play with contractors? 

1082
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,360
Yeah, Damian runs that part for 
us. 

1083
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:34,360
He, he often runs tenders. 
So he'll help the client, you 

1084
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,600
know, get the physicals, the 
schedule rates together and then

1085
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,400
get the formal contract and the 
contract document and then and 

1086
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,680
then go to tender. 
So we're involved in, in that 

1087
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,560
process. 
Probably the key, one of the key

1088
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,160
conversations we have with the 
clients is what sort of contract

1089
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,840
do you want? 
Like because there's everything 

1090
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,800
from fully variable, which is if
you do nothing, you get paid 0 

1091
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,080
and you take a cut, you get paid
X amount. 

1092
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,360
So there's no fixed component. 
So that's kind of one extreme. 

1093
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:07,200
And then the other extreme is 
your cost plus essentially an 

1094
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,360
alliance type contract. 
And then in between, which is a 

1095
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,640
bit more normal is where there's
some fixed like you might pay 

1096
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,600
for the site manager and the 
admin and maybe some of the 

1097
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,120
equipment and so forth. 
And then there'll be a variable.

1098
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,920
So and that varies generally 
between about 30 to 70% fixed. 

1099
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,240
So, so we have that conversation
and, and really you try to line 

1100
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:35,320
up the contractor and, and the 
client to have the same goal 

1101
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,800
and, and that can vary and you 
know, depending on the contract 

1102
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,520
type and where the contract is 
at that that can change. 

1103
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,280
And then the market as well. 
If the market's really hot, then

1104
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,560
the the risk will move from one 
side to the other. 

1105
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,800
And so that's why you need 
someone like Mr Damian, just I 

1106
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,760
assume that is so variable in 
terms of like, as you said, 

1107
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,720
timing in the market, the size 
of the mine, the mine life, the 

1108
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,680
whole body life. 
It's just, Yep, there's a lot of

1109
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,040
a lot of ingredients that go 
into that cake, a lot of cake 

1110
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,120
references today. 
Yeah, no, that's right. 

1111
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,280
You know, there's probably 10 
contractors out there and some 

1112
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,520
are Tier 1-2 and three. 
And depending on the project, 

1113
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,840
you might need a Tier 2 because 
they're right sized for this 

1114
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,680
project. 
Or you know, if you've got a, if

1115
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,280
you've got a line down, for 
example that or a Bellevue 

1116
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:34,120
that's going to require multiple
jumbos, like 4 plus, then you'll

1117
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,400
need, you won't be able to talk 
to the smaller guys. 

1118
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:37,720
You'll have to go to the big end
of town. 

1119
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,680
Yeah. 
And so that's dealing with the 

1120
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,320
client that's going out to 
tender to the contractors. 

1121
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,200
Do you ever deal with the 
contractors? 

1122
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:46,960
Yeah, yeah, all the time. 
So what? 

1123
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,320
Do you do for them? 
Well, we have actually done work

1124
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,520
for some of the contractors like
helping them with mine design 

1125
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,600
and so forth. 
Like in Australia it's, it's 

1126
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:00,120
pretty much the client does the 
mine design and gives it to the 

1127
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:01,920
contractor and you give me a 
price. 

1128
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,320
But if you go overseas, a lot of
the time they'll, the contractor

1129
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,000
does the schedule. 
So we've we've helped out 

1130
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,400
contractors, you know, do do the
actual mining schedule and then 

1131
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,120
present that to the client. 
Yeah. 

1132
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:17,640
So we've done that sort of work 
as well. 

1133
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:19,680
Oh, there you go. 
It's like MMS mate. 

1134
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,720
Oh, it's just very fully 
integrated. 

1135
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,640
Jill, I've got another one. 
There's a number that always 

1136
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,520
comes out and I'm always kind of
suspicious about it. 

1137
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,400
I just think it's kind of open 
to being gamified and that's 

1138
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,720
metal equivalents. 
When companies report these for 

1139
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:40,000
true results or maybe on a on a 
resource basis, what do you kind

1140
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000
of think of them more broadly, I
guess? 

1141
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,640
And is this something just by 
default you go and interrogate? 

1142
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,280
Is that just the way to kind of 
go about it? 

1143
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:50,800
Yeah. 
I, you know, in terms of how I 

1144
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,400
feel about them, I think they 
they are helpful and there is a 

1145
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,320
place for them. 
I think there is a lot of, you 

1146
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,920
know, there's payables, there's 
pricing, there's recovery, 

1147
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:02,040
there's things that go into 
getting the equivalent. 

1148
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,520
That means, you know, if you're 
going to use them, it would 

1149
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,440
generally be on a pretty 
advanced project. 

1150
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,160
Or a project which has the, the 
company already has an operating

1151
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,840
mine using that equivalent. 
So, you know, in terms of using 

1152
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:18,240
them, I, you know, I know there 
is debate around it, but I think

1153
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,680
if you have a good amount of 
information behind it, there's 

1154
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,200
no problem. 
You think as long as you're not 

1155
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,640
like, you know, you've got to 
use the gold equivalent in a 

1156
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,680
zinc deposit. 
There is, there is, there is 

1157
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:29,760
opportunities for people to 
misuse them. 

1158
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,520
So exploration companies, they 
Chuck one up, you know, on one 

1159
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:36,360
of their first sorts of 
campaigns, take them with a 

1160
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:37,880
pinch of salt. 
That's what I'm sort of hearing.

1161
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,920
Yeah, I'm probably not going to,
I'm probably going to be more 

1162
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,240
diplomatic. 
But I would say that in my 

1163
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,280
experience and how I would use 
them, I have I've advised 

1164
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,800
companies that are probably 
early stage to not go with 

1165
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,400
equivalent at that point and to 
do it once they have some, you 

1166
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:57,280
know, some information signs and
solid numbers behind a couple of

1167
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,240
those other things. 
I mean, the trick thing about 

1168
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,400
equivalents is that you it kind 
of depends how you're going to 

1169
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,840
get it through the plant in 
terms of what the recovery is 

1170
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:07,720
going to be, right. 
So if you're talking about base 

1171
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,000
metals, there's different cons 
that come out the back end. 

1172
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,720
You might have a metal in there,
but you're not might not be able

1173
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,560
to get a con out or at the 
recovery that you think you 

1174
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,800
might be able to get. 
So like I said, I think if you 

1175
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:23,000
stick to using them and this is 
just my experience using a more 

1176
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,560
advanced projects, that's where 
I'm comfortable and we I often 

1177
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,560
sort of push towards NSRS now. 
So Ultra returns. 

1178
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,440
Yeah, that's a clean way. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1179
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,880
Because you don't have that 
conversation around, you know, 

1180
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,120
if you've got four or five 
medals which equivalent because 

1181
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,640
sometimes they're, you know, 
especially, you know, especially

1182
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:42,680
with the pricing, they're all 
very similar. 

1183
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,120
Which one do you put it on? 
So NSRS are are a good way 

1184
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,600
Totally. 
That's kind of my go to. 

1185
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,120
Again, it's usually they're at 
feasibility level. 

1186
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,320
Yeah. 
But yeah, it can be exciting to 

1187
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:56,080
put a metal equivalent out if 
you got a draw. 

1188
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,360
What? 
I've got 2 questions and after I

1189
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,040
asked the first one, you're 
gonna know what the second one 

1190
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,440
is. 
What's the best study you've 

1191
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:07,520
ever done? 
What? 

1192
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,040
What? 
What do you put the N Tech hat 

1193
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,760
on as the greatest study ever 
that you were most proud of? 

1194
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,960
They have to be 1. 
Well, I don't know. 

1195
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,720
I mean, there's studies we're 
doing now, but. 

1196
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:21,960
They could be. 
You won't know until they 

1197
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,680
actually get get going whether 
it's the best ever, really. 

1198
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:26,040
So you. 
Discount them. 

1199
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,760
I think what you really want at 
the end of the day is you want 

1200
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:34,720
the study to be executed. 
I think that's that's really 

1201
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,440
important because at the end of 
the day, we're here to build 

1202
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:41,440
stuff and to to my medals. 
So I think some of the proudest 

1203
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,640
ones would be de Grusa. 
You know, that was that was one 

1204
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,680
of our early ones and. 
Start at the top. 

1205
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:49,160
We started. 
Like it was really, really good 

1206
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:54,520
for five years or even longer. 
So, so that was really good. 

1207
01:02:55,120 --> 01:03:01,760
We also did the study for Nova, 
another cracking deposit and you

1208
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:03,760
know, that's, that's in this 
later years now. 

1209
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,200
But, but pretty much what we 
said in the study happened, 

1210
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:12,120
which was which was really good,
really wanted to convey there to

1211
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,600
put a conveyor in an underground
crusher, but we couldn't get 

1212
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,840
that one across the line. 
Unfortunately, the previous 

1213
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:21,920
owners didn't want to spend that
little bit extra, but that was 

1214
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,120
that, that was quite good. 
So yeah, at the end of the day, 

1215
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:29,480
I think look, we we like doing 
the work we do, but we really 

1216
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:33,160
like it when the mines happen. 
I think that's that's what it's 

1217
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:34,800
all about. 
I won't. 

1218
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:35,680
I was going to ask you. 
Sure. 

1219
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:37,960
What the next? 
One is, but I'll rephrase it. 

1220
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,320
What's been one of the? 
Is there any that stand out that

1221
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:45,240
were the most not difficult, but
you like really had to unpack a 

1222
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:50,040
lot of new learnings to get the 
study done something very new 

1223
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,040
and they're probably. 
Ones you haven't heard about. 

1224
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:56,640
I think. 
Or are they sometimes commodity 

1225
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:02,920
specific? 
Look, I think we're doing some 

1226
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,640
work at the moment and, and 
we're doing something that's a 

1227
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,520
bit new, which is, which is 
doing some discrete event 

1228
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,400
simulation. 
And that's, you know, we all 

1229
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:18,560
know that a truck can do 90,000 
to 120,000 TKMS a month, get 450

1230
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:20,520
to 500 hours. 
We, we kind of know these 

1231
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:22,120
things. 
We know a decline can get 

1232
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,200
2,000,000 tonne a year out. 
You know, so we use a lot of 

1233
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:31,400
rules of thumb in mining and but
what that doesn't allow you to 

1234
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:35,200
do is really push the envelope 
and get that extra 5 or 10% and 

1235
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,760
say, OK, how many tonnes can we 
really get out of a decline? 

1236
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:43,200
Or if we're loading a crusher 
underground, will one 2900 do? 

1237
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,120
Or if we put two in there, do we
get double? 

1238
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:52,360
So we're starting to do 
simulation around those events, 

1239
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,920
you know, on a real time basis 
where you can, you can do some 

1240
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,480
calibration and then you can, 
you can run that and actually 

1241
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,720
see what you can do, you know, 
congestion. 

1242
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,080
So it really deals really well 
with congestion. 

1243
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,000
You put in crib times, you put 
in normal distributions, you do 

1244
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,200
all this kind of work. 
So, so that's exciting. 

1245
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,640
That's something that we're 
doing a bit new at the moment. 

1246
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:17,200
Chap Chap GPN Tech. 
Pretty nobody wants to pay for. 

1247
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,640
It but it's till now give a 
special discount card for that 

1248
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,880
yeah. 
What what about the the and it's

1249
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,920
I wouldn't say it's going quiet,
but there was the push not long 

1250
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:33,320
ago with the electrification of 
Australian mines, which is with 

1251
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,440
one in seven declines is very 
challenging. 

1252
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:39,760
And so not, not practical 
sometimes. 

1253
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,160
But with the new stuff coming 
out with I know there's the 

1254
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,880
battery electric trucks, but 
then the potential hybrid 

1255
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:53,160
versions for trucks and loaders.
What is your first take on all 

1256
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:58,120
of this and is it all possible 
for a one in seven decline in 

1257
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,200
Australia? 
Yeah, Well, this is the actual 

1258
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,680
reason why we started doing the 
discrete event simulation, 

1259
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,680
because we wanted to understand 
how to compare diesel and 

1260
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:08,600
electric trucks. 
You know, when do you, how do 

1261
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,160
you charge a truck? 
How do you know do your battery 

1262
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:12,280
swap? 
Where does the charger go? 

1263
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:14,160
And really we wanted to model 
that. 

1264
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,080
I think we're definitely going 
to well, we're definitely 

1265
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,240
heading in that route. 
I think it's going to take 

1266
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:23,240
longer than what people think 
and I and every mine will be 

1267
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,720
different. 
Some mines will will have 

1268
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:27,360
battery electric trucks not a 
problem. 

1269
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:31,440
Others will have hybrids because
you just cannot have a battery 

1270
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,320
big enough. 
So I think it's going to be 

1271
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,960
horses for courses. 
I I like electric loaders. 

1272
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,920
I think they will be a good 
thing. 

1273
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,880
My personal opinion is we won't 
be swapping batteries, We'll be 

1274
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:46,160
charging batteries. 
I think that is a a cleaner 

1275
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:50,440
more. 
I think the mines are more 

1276
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:54,200
amenable to integrating that 
than actually battery swapping 

1277
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:56,200
it. 
I think it sounds a lot easier 

1278
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:59,960
than it is. 
Charging is in hot like a hybrid

1279
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:00,360
like. 
Charger. 

1280
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,960
No, I think you'll have a 
battery loader and you'll pull 

1281
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,120
up and you'll sit there for 2025
minutes and charge it up and 

1282
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:07,480
then you'll go again. 
Yeah. 

1283
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:09,880
The problem with battery 
swapping is each of those 

1284
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:11,800
batteries is probably worth 
$1,000,000 each. 

1285
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,840
So have you got three? 
You got $3,000,000 sitting there

1286
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,560
charging or $2,000,000? 
That's another loader, yeah. 

1287
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,800
You might as well just have a 
loader and charge it up. 

1288
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:22,280
So, and they're probably some of
the things we want to model 

1289
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:26,120
because you sound like, oh, you 
know, 22 minutes or 25 minutes 

1290
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:27,440
to charge up. 
Yeah, but you can go and have 

1291
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,600
crib, you can service it, you 
can do other things. 

1292
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,400
But really trying to understand 
what that means in the day to 

1293
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,280
day life of a mind, I don't 
think we really understand yet. 

1294
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,000
But the OEMs have still got some
catching up to do. 

1295
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,480
They're not there yet. 
You know, there's not a whole 

1296
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,000
fleet of them sitting on Grayson
Highway ready to go to work at 

1297
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,040
the moment. 
So yeah, it's going to take 

1298
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,600
time, but we will get there. 
Do you, do you think there's 

1299
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,840
going to be any change in how 
the clients and companies invest

1300
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:58,240
like outlay the capital for 
Greenfield projects if there's 

1301
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,560
not like there's shit loads of 
them coming online in terms of 

1302
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,120
electrifying it with shafts 
instead of. 

1303
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,920
We're already working on a 
project. 

1304
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:12,040
We've been pushing conveyors. 
So we, we think because 

1305
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:14,680
conveyors is you know and it 
will depend on the depth and the

1306
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,000
tonnage and, and all of that and
we can model that. 

1307
01:08:17,319 --> 01:08:22,160
So I think that is the easiest 
way to electrify a mine and and 

1308
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:26,040
haul decent amounts of dirt to 
you know, 2 to 3,000,000 plus 

1309
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,120
tonnes per annum because it kind
of gets above where trucks 

1310
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,560
really work that well. 
So shafts I think we will see 

1311
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,760
shafts but they are big and 
expensive. 

1312
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:41,120
So I think there's got to be, 
and now all bodies don't really 

1313
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,359
suit it. 
I think the Super Pit will be a 

1314
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:44,600
classic. 
I reckon there'll be a few 

1315
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:47,120
shafts out there and they're 
running, I don't know, half a 

1316
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,479
dozen jumbos and half a dozen 
portals and they're going 

1317
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,479
bananas there. 
So there'll be. 24 million tonne

1318
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:54,120
mines coming up, it's 
unbelievable. 

1319
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,160
They'll have a cave it. 
Possibly, yeah, yeah, sub level.

1320
01:08:58,240 --> 01:08:59,760
Good way to deal with all the 
voids. 

1321
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:04,880
Yeah, I'm OK myself. 
Yeah, what's the and so with the

1322
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:08,399
conveyors is it, is it still you
pretty much have to, it has to 

1323
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:12,520
be straight and then something 
going over the top of it and it 

1324
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:14,880
has to be a striped exact cannot
be curved. 

1325
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,680
No, no, just impractical cost 
wise. 

1326
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:20,359
I think there is curved 
conveyors, but I don't think 

1327
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:23,720
anyone's doing that. 
Yeah, I think they're very old 

1328
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,000
simple technology, very easy way
to electrify a mine. 

1329
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,840
I think the other thing that 
we've looked into and mines, you

1330
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,920
know, we're seeing a lot more 
solar farms and, and you know, 

1331
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:39,520
wind farms on mine sites now so 
that even, you know, will will 

1332
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,439
bring us closer to having fully 
electric mines because there's 

1333
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:44,319
no point. 
A lot of the mines at the moment

1334
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:45,520
are burning diesel on the 
surface. 

1335
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:51,120
So why electrify, electrify your
mine only to add another 3 

1336
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,600
diesel gensets onto the surface.
You know what, what are you 

1337
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,480
really doing it waste? 
It's it's not really much of A 

1338
01:09:56,480 --> 01:10:00,440
benefit, but if we can tap into 
green power and in some of these

1339
01:10:00,440 --> 01:10:05,560
mines, you know, Lion Town just 
put in a massive hybrid power 

1340
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:08,160
station there, you have lots of 
green energy. 

1341
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,640
Same with Bellevue. 
Jandy are putting in some just 

1342
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,920
put in some wind turbines. 
I think so, yeah. 

1343
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,520
I think the future is electric 
for those mines. 

1344
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,080
And with those conveyor setups, 
is there like you, you might you

1345
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:22,240
might be able to leave a hook 
for people to come through your 

1346
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:27,240
door here, but is there is there
being evolved how to actually 

1347
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:31,200
develop the mine, install 
conveyor systems, maintain 

1348
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:35,440
egress without having to Chuck 
in multiple different declines 

1349
01:10:35,440 --> 01:10:38,600
like can you drive utes under a 
conveyor belt? 

1350
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,280
The well Nifty had that so nifty
had a conveyor belt in the top 

1351
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:46,600
part of the mine and you drive 
under it. 

1352
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,400
That was the main in and out of 
the mine. 

1353
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,360
The mines department don't 
really like it because if that 

1354
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,200
catches on fire, which conveyor 
belts can, and that's your fresh

1355
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,480
air intake, then it's a problem.
So, so really they they need to 

1356
01:10:57,480 --> 01:11:00,360
be in an exhaust airway. 
So you will have they will have 

1357
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,160
service availability and you 
know you will be able to drive 

1358
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:07,040
white vehicles most likely 
beside them small vehicles to 

1359
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:08,640
clean up and whatever and 
service. 

1360
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,160
But more than likely they'll be 
in an exhaust airway. 

1361
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,480
But you'll be able to run HV 
down there and air water 

1362
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:18,680
pumping. 
Yeah and yeah. 

1363
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,560
So that will be used for other. 
And so you'll still have to 

1364
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:26,960
always maintain a conveyor free 
declines for main traffic, fresh

1365
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,440
air intake. 
So does that will that likely 

1366
01:11:29,440 --> 01:11:33,560
change how ventilation systems 
are designed in underground 

1367
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:35,080
mines? 
Because you've got to have, 

1368
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,400
you're going to have a dedicated
return airway system that is in 

1369
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:41,880
a decline, not in necessarily. 
You'll probably still need both.

1370
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:46,840
You will still need both because
really at the bottom of the, the

1371
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:50,200
bottom of the conveyor is a 
crusher which will produce dust.

1372
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:56,200
So you want to be taking its own
own dust out of the mine and 

1373
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:57,560
that's generally the way to do 
it. 

1374
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,080
So, but don't forget now you 
don't have 10 trucks running 

1375
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,760
1214 trucks or you know, so 
there's big benefits on 

1376
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:09,160
ventilation in that side of it. 
And then so I assume you're a 

1377
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,040
big part of what you guys will 
be doing is determining, right, 

1378
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:16,680
how deep can we put and all body
dependent, how deep can we put 

1379
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,600
this conveyor and the crusher 
system and getting you the 

1380
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,320
earliest amount of cash flow 
because obviously the deeper it 

1381
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:27,800
goes, the longer it takes to get
the most optimum production 

1382
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:29,320
going. 
Yeah, you normally start off 

1383
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:30,360
with trucks. 
Yeah. 

1384
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:31,800
So it's a. 
Ramp, you're always gonna. 

1385
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:33,320
Have to, yeah, You're gonna have
to start off with trucks. 

1386
01:12:33,480 --> 01:12:35,720
Yeah, yeah. 
Yes. 

1387
01:12:36,480 --> 01:12:37,880
Well, it's too late. 
We digress. 

1388
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,720
We digress into talking mining. 
No, that was that was 

1389
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:43,640
fascinating. 
Just one last one on that. 

1390
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:47,680
Do you think sort of as a basic 
rule electrifying open pits will

1391
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:51,240
be much easier before 
underground or you think equally

1392
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,240
just very challenging? 
No, I think open pits definitely

1393
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,040
electrifiable, especially the 
bigger ones that will use the 

1394
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,120
containeries. 
You know, they've been around 

1395
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:04,560
for a long time and and I, you 
know, they're just getting 

1396
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,360
better at modularizing these 
things so you can get them in 

1397
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,320
relatively easy and you can 
still have battery. 

1398
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,680
I know there's a few people 
working on battery triple sevens

1399
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:16,320
and you know, aftermarket units 
and so forth. 

1400
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,960
So I think, you know, it's, it's
a thing, it'll happen as well. 

1401
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:22,640
Awesome, Joe, I'm all out of 
questions. 

1402
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:24,760
Guys, do you know that you're 
recruiting for JI's or anything 

1403
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:27,640
at the moment, Jimmy, you can 
Chuck it for a job advert up at 

1404
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:33,560
the bar. 
Just put one on actually. 

1405
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,720
There you go very much. 
Oh right, thank you very much 

1406
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:37,840
for that. 
On on short. 

1407
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:39,640
You can't say it was short 
notice. 

1408
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:43,360
We've been trying for a year, 
but now I appreciate that. 

1409
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:46,080
Learnt an absolute shit load. 
Thanks a lot. 

1410
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:47,720
That's. 
The secrets of consulting. 

1411
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:51,240
Thanks very much. 
No, I haven't. 

1412
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:52,520
Yeah. 
Thanks guys. 

1413
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:53,040
Cheers. 
Awesome. 

1414
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,760
Sensational mate, tell you what 
special place in my heart in 

1415
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,960
tech Maca was one of the I think
he was like my first ever 

1416
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:04,720
sponsor on life of mine back in 
the day. 

1417
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,480
What a champion. 
With me some cash each month and

1418
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:10,000
I'll just I actually felt bad 
taking it. 

1419
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:14,000
He was, he was, yeah. 
He was one of the great the out 

1420
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:17,840
of that journey, one of the, 
there's a couple of people that 

1421
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,720
really influenced this whole 
thing and where we are today and

1422
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,160
he was one of them. 
So fucking a lot of thanks to 

1423
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:24,520
him. 
Yeah, I don't think we'd be 

1424
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:25,760
doing money in mind if it wasn't
fair. 

1425
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:29,400
Well, no, I'll tell you the 
story about why, and I think 

1426
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,720
I've told this before when I was
just interviewing drunk 

1427
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,880
underground miners all the time.
I'm I want to do a battery 

1428
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:39,560
metals spectacular of like I 
want to start talking about 

1429
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:42,120
these battery metals and start 
talking about the share Mark and

1430
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:47,240
I went to macro said who do you 
know anyone who I could talk to 

1431
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:51,040
him about lithium, copper and 
nickel and he's like, I've got 

1432
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:54,520
the guy forwards me on to Andy 
Clayton from precision funds 

1433
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,520
management, who are next door. 
And that was how talking about 

1434
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:00,920
share market started start doing
and then you 2. 

1435
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,640
Channel. 
One news channel 9 news and then

1436
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:07,320
you 2 are like fuck this guy 
needs some help and his money 

1437
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:11,200
might so pretty much cheers 
Shane McLeod and cheers mineral 

1438
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:15,600
mining services, our floody 
partners, along with who else we

1439
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:17,240
grounded. 
We've got grounded, we've got 

1440
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:20,520
cross boundary energy, we've got
Sambic ground support, CR 

1441
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:24,480
insurance, Kaydrill Dash Sat. 
And thank you very much for the 

1442
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:27,520
intent for coming on. 
Have a great weekend, cheers. 

1443
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:32,000
Information contained in this 
episode of Money of Mine is of 

1444
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,080
general nature only and does not
take into account the 

1445
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:37,680
objectives, financial situation 
or needs of any particular 

1446
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:39,720
person. 
Before making any investment 

1447
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:42,800
decision, you should consult 
with your financial advisor and 

1448
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,920
consider how appropriate the 
advice is to your objectives, 

1449
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:48,120
financial situation and needs.