1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,280 G'day, money miners. We've got a exciting chat here 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:07,880 with the King of Copper, Ahmad. And Speaking of the the kings of 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,800 industry use Axis mining technology. 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,720 The kings of true hole orientation and surveying give 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,720 Sean a call. They always pick up the phone. 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,320 Not good enough, JD. It goes like this. 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,680 Access mine and technology of the trusted advisor and drill. 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,520 I'll survey instrumentation. You need more access in your 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,480 life 'cause you just know exactly where everything is in 10 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,600 space. Thank God you popped up Maddie. 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,800 I'll hand it back over. So let's get into, let's get 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,680 into some copper now. Thanks for coming on. 13 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,440 No worries, I'm going to say the same thing I say every time I 14 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,680 come on here. You're only as good as your last 15 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,280 performance, so. If I farm here. 16 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,880 You'll never see me again. You're putting the pressure on 17 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,480 yourself there. So we've been, we've been 18 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:53,040 planning actually this, this copper chat for quite a while. 19 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,960 It's an exciting one for for so many different reasons. 20 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:02,040 There's so many big companies, small companies, analysts, you 21 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,440 know, buy side, sell side that are just bullish about copper 22 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,400 and it's a it's a super interesting space. 23 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,400 You got from a geological perspective, different deposits 24 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,600 you've got, you know, from the smallest miners to the biggest 25 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,320 out there looking for these these projects. 26 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,400 It's probably the most reported about metal, I'd say, you know, 27 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,640 by none out there. So I'm very excited and I think 28 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,120 the kind of logical place to start this discussion is exactly 29 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,880 they're just talking about those demand projections that we're 30 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,800 seeing how the world is kind of going to get there, whether 31 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,160 those projections are in fact going to eventuate. 32 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,000 So you know, plunking that all on you. 33 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,560 I want to kind of hear what do you make of this whole, you know 34 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,760 there is a complete dearth of copper projects out there kind 35 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,240 of discussion point. I mean, I think as far as 36 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,120 commodities goes, I, I don't think there is a higher premium 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,480 in any commodity right now for finding a significant deposit in 38 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,000 copper. I I think that is yeah, like, 39 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,560 and, and a lot of that is driven by the demand and, and whether 40 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,639 you believe the demand curves, like the timeline of the demand 41 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,960 curves, all of those things, you can make a rational argument for 42 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,920 both, both of those sides. All right, Like we are 43 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:17,480 definitely going to use more copper. 44 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,560 Are we going to use it as quickly as some people are 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,400 projecting? You know, probably maybe, you 46 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,280 know, like copper is kind of directly tied to infrastructure 47 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,280 and some places it takes a while to build infrastructure. 48 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,880 So I don't think it's going to, you know, like you can make a 49 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,880 rational argument that some people's projections are 50 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,600 aggressive. You can make an argument that 51 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,280 some people's projections are conservative, but in the end I 52 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:40,840 think. You know, like to your point 53 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,320 that. There is I think no other 54 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,880 commodity that has the an actual as well as a perceived premium 55 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,600 tied to finding a deposit that will that will that will be a 56 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,520 company maker or you know like a return significant value. 57 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,640 And I don't think we need to sort of flesh out the the kind 58 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:02,200 of bull side of it too much. I think the the audience, you 59 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,120 know, very well understands that that is the the widely held 60 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:05,800 view. Yeah. 61 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,720 But I'd love to hear from you. And we were speaking about this 62 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,320 before we recorded today, the kind of contrarian take in it. 63 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:12,600 There are a few of these out there. 64 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,960 There is a few of these sort of takes emerging. 65 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:18,360 And I think the yeah, so the so the current view is that, you 66 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,240 know, we're not finding enough copper deposits and that's going 67 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,960 to create this gap in the supply demand that we're going to have. 68 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,200 And that's true. You know, like we we are 69 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,480 definitely not finding new copper deposits at at at the 70 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,040 same rate that we were say 10 years ago or 20 years ago. 71 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,880 I guess one of the contrarian views that that we talked about 72 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,520 and I guess is the kind of the, the thing that we wanted to talk 73 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,400 about here is that the sexy bit is, I think everyone says that 74 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,920 we should make new discoveries. But there's a, there's a like a 75 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,440 body of work that's going to come out. 76 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,720 And it's not my body of work. It's by two people named Richard 77 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,760 Shoddy, who's who's a consultant on the Minix Consulting, another 78 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,200 guy named Pietro Gouge, who works at the centre of 79 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,560 exploration targeting at Ewa. And their study will be it's an 80 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,120 upcoming paper in a journal called Geosystems and Geo 81 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:07,720 Environment. So that'll come out later this 82 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,400 year. But Richard will also present 83 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,240 this work at I mark. So if you're going to I mark, 84 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,080 you can go watch his talk. I think it's called What's the 85 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,920 real story of copper? And I guess what they've, you 86 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,040 know, the work that they've done shows that if you look at 87 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,240 existing assets, those, the, the resource growth on these 88 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,440 existing assets is actually meeting the copper demand that 89 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:34,160 we've had since 2010 till now. So, so the resources on these 90 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,160 existing assets, so we're talking about mines that are 91 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,160 already in production, you know, like we call them delineation 92 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:41,280 projects. So, you know, so they're 93 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:43,840 delineating more resources or adding more resources to the 94 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:46,880 inventory. And that has delivered twice as 95 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,920 much the amount of copper as new discoveries have in the last or 96 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,120 since 20/20/10. So the last decade or last 15 97 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,640 years now, you know, they've delivered twice as much on 98 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,080 existing assets as they have now in that parlance of what we talk 99 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,480 about, you know, this is say call it brownfields discoveries 100 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,320 or you know. Expansions. 101 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:07,920 Really. Yeah. 102 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,240 Like resource expansion, drilling. 103 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,200 And so there's, so there's a few things and you know, like 104 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,880 sometimes you call it exploration upside. 105 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,040 You know, you have a resource and then you drill it out and it 106 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,760 becomes double the size. But the initial resource was 107 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,640 what you built the mine on. So you know, so, so new 108 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,760 discoveries haven't quite filled the demand that we've had in, in 109 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,040 the past. And they're not likely to fill 110 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,840 the demand that we will have in the short term either. 111 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,280 Because if you make a copper discovery now, you know, it's 112 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:38,880 probably going to be 10 years if it's a substantial copper 113 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,760 discovery of mine for it to come into full production. 114 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,840 And 10 years is probably pretty aggressive, like it'll probably 115 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:47,560 be somewhere in the order like 12 to 15 years that 116 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,560 realistically that you can kind of put it into production. 117 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,760 And I think, I think QB is the the case in point that a lot of 118 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,120 people have in their mind and that was 29 years off the top of 119 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,400 my head from when they first discovered it in I think 1992 to 120 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,840 when it comes online and. That's why I'm and there's a lot 121 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:05,080 of these. So I mean, the Lost Bronzes is 122 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,800 another angular one that was stuck in development hell, you 123 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,840 know, kind of like that Hollywood term of development 124 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:12,440 hell for like, what, five years I think it was. 125 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,680 It still has challenges. Now Resolution's another one. 126 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,800 You know, it's been stuck in this thing for decades. 127 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,800 Several, you know, Supreme Court cases on that stuff. 128 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,840 And these, these aren't, you know, I mean Chile, they're 129 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,960 developed countries, you know, but it's not the quote unquote 130 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:31,480 Western world we're actually talking about. 131 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,560 And there's been a lot of, you know, arm raising about what's 132 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,920 going on in Australia in the past couple weeks and what's 133 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,920 been going on in Canada for some time now. 134 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,480 But can we just knuckle down for a moment on, on what's really 135 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,560 holding up these these projects? So I mean, to start with, it 136 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,120 takes a long time to draw them out and actually get a solid 137 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:51,400 understanding, right? Yep. 138 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,240 And then and then following that, you've got the same as in 139 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Australia, you need to get native title, right? 140 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:00,920 You need to get government approvals. 141 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:02,840 Water is a big challenge. Yep. 142 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,040 Are there specific areas that you think are or challenges that 143 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,240 are under weighted by by the market at the moment that just 144 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,280 take a long time? For, for, for. 145 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,760 Like, yeah, I guess this is more a large, I guess it's more a 146 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,720 porphyry type question. Yeah. 147 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,360 So I think that the the two major challenges in porphyry 148 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,000 tend to be usually community or environment, you know, like they 149 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,720 they tend to be an environment, I'll use the bucket term like 150 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,520 water being one as well. Because the end, if you're 151 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,520 taking water from one source, you're probably affecting 152 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,520 someone else's ability if you use that water somewhere else. 153 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,680 You know, so things like Pebble pebbles are really big copper 154 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,280 deposits that's been stuck in Alaska because it's close to an 155 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,520 environmentally sensitive area. It has Native title concerns as 156 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,640 well. But I feel like, you know, like 157 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,400 we're kind of getting into a point now where community and 158 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,440 environmental issues, I think we understand the risk with land 159 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,560 access or native title, but I think we're probably now 160 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,200 starting to understand that environmentally and community 161 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,440 wise how these things can be affected. 162 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,360 And the environment is, I think, just a function of that. 163 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,040 When you build these big minds like you can go to Google Maps 164 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,480 and look at how big an. Escondido, Chuki Kamada are, you 165 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,320 know, like they affect a significant amount of real 166 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,240 estate on on this earth. So, so the chance that you're 167 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,960 going to affect the environment in a certain way or community in 168 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,480 a certain way is just higher when you're building such a big 169 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:27,840 thing. Yeah, yeah. 170 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,200 And sort of anecdotally, given your experience in in Africa, 171 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,960 can you comment on on development timelines as they 172 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,840 sort of compare with with Latin America? 173 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:39,880 Well, yeah, that's a good question. 174 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,200 I mean, Latin America, I think it's probably becoming harder 175 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,280 because, you know, particularly in Chile, you know, air, the 176 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,440 water is an issue. The other is like, you know, 177 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,120 anytime you're building something on the side of a 178 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,760 mountain that's 4 or 5000 metres high is, is problematic as it 179 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,720 is. Yeah, like just from a labour 180 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,560 force like, you know, like if you're asking people to work at 181 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:04,960 4800 metres or something like that, you know, like there's a 182 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,560 whole another problem that you have to manage in Africa. 183 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:13,560 It's been, I don't think the development challenge is, is as 184 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:17,760 big, but it's just more jurisdictional in that, you 185 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,160 know, like the the government is not as stable as in places like 186 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,360 Chile. So it's always a trade off. 187 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,240 You know, you trade off the fact that you can develop things 188 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,000 really quickly because the government is happy to take your 189 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,520 development dollars and and the revenue that comes out of it. 190 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,520 But then the government, you know, like it may not have the 191 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,920 same residency time as your asset does. 192 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,760 And so how you how you kind of play with that? 193 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,080 Actually on that jurisdictional risk side of things, and we sort 194 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,880 of touched on this in our chat with Jon Ronsky as well. 195 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,600 Do you think there's also a bit of another reason why there's a 196 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,120 lack of copper discoveries in the last decade is because 197 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,160 perhaps more of this sort of copper prospectivity is in these 198 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,200 risky jurisdictions and, and mining companies are too scared 199 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,000 to to go there and commit the dollars and, and, and tap into 200 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,440 that? Yeah, completely. 201 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,760 I think, you know, like if you're, yeah, a company like BHP 202 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,960 Real, you know, Anglo, Yeah, like your appetite to go into 203 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,400 places like the DRC is probably low. 204 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,600 You know, like that's why you see companies like Ivanhoe that 205 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,800 go into these places and and they find a Chinese kind of SOE 206 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,480 that becomes partner with them because their risk appetite is 207 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,080 different. So I think that's definitely the 208 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,640 case where, I mean, I think, you know, like part of the 209 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,160 cannibalization of assets in places like Chile and South 210 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,760 America is because everyone wants to kind of work there and 211 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,320 so. You know, so everyone's kind of 212 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,560 fighting over the same. You know, like same assets, it's 213 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:49,120 the red ocean, blue ocean kind of thing. 214 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,240 You know, it's red ocean, it's fixed assets and everyone's kind 215 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,960 of fighting over them. And so the risk appetite for 216 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,400 people to go and, you know, explore where others aren't, I, 217 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,280 I don't think is as high as it's probably been in the past. 218 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:03,400 Yeah. Do you think that's going to 219 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,880 change over time? We we had a discussion with 220 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,720 Sheppo and a former investment banking analyst out of South 221 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,280 Africa and he was very pro. The development of places like 222 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,520 Zambia may be a bit less so DRC that's probably one step further 223 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,880 in its challenges for a BHP or one of these sorts of companies. 224 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:27,320 But do you see a world where BHP is in Zambia for example? 225 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,120 Yeah, I think so. I mean, like, to be honest, if 226 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,200 you're serious about copper, you're going to have to go to 227 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,920 some of these places, right? Yeah, I would advocate that your 228 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,200 whole portfolio shouldn't sit in, in a, in a jurisdiction like 229 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,360 Zambia. But I think you should be able 230 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,480 or you should be willing to take that risk, you know, to go into 231 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,280 these places. You should be willing to take 232 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,120 the risk and to go to like places like IRI and Jaya or, you 233 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:51,880 know, like PNG and things like that. 234 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,080 Because you know, like otherwise you're, you know, it's kind of 235 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,360 like to some degree it becomes a know sum game, you know, like 236 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:01,840 you're fighting over the same assets. 237 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,800 So, so if you're happy to pay the premium to, to kind of push 238 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,640 someone else out of the way, you know, like a BHP could probably 239 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,600 do that, right? Like they could pay a higher 240 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,200 premium and, and, and push other bidders out of, out of that kind 241 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,200 of race. But that's not a strategy that's 242 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,440 going to work for everyone. You know, like the Techs or the 243 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,080 Anglos, you know, like these guys wouldn't be able to go 244 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,920 compete against the real big majors if they really had to get 245 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,280 in that fight. So to, to pull the the chat back 246 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,360 on the path of where discoveries have sort of happened and where 247 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,120 expansion in copper production has happened in the past few 248 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,080 decades. I've seen you've, you've put a 249 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,240 chart here which will Chuck up on, on the YouTube talking about 250 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,200 the, the changes in cut off grades. 251 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,520 And you know, specifically as it relates to some of the biggest 252 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,840 operations in the world. Just a handful of these 253 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,880 operations can change the landscape or add a huge amount 254 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,520 of production in a, in a real global sense. 255 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:56,520 Can you, can you kind of talk us through and like what the 256 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,440 takeaways are from your perspective? 257 00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:59,520 Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. 258 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,680 So you can put this graph up and this is again from Richard 259 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,960 Shorty's work, you know, so he had this graph where he looked 260 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:11,240 at the top 12 porphyry mines in 1929 and then he showed, you 261 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,240 know, like so at that time in 1929, they had 50 million tonnes 262 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,680 of contained copper at that time. 263 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,400 Yeah. So, so 3 billion tonnes at 1.5% 264 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,560 copper and so then you go to today with like and today was 265 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:28,280 2008 in that time and you know see these same mines now have 266 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:33,480 more than 61 billion tonnes of .6 and so and that is purely a 267 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,760 function of them dropping the the cut off grade. 268 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,760 And so my earlier comment about, you know, like existing assets 269 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:45,960 have provided twice as much as twice as much copper inventory 270 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,120 as new discoveries in the last 15 years. 271 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,320 You know, one of the things that people will argue is they say, 272 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,840 well, is that just a drop in the cut off grade now from 1929 to 273 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,200 now? That definitely is a drop in the 274 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:57,840 cut off grade. You know, like we were mining 275 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,080 probably 1% copper or 1.5% copper then and now we are 276 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,120 mining, you know, substantially lower grades. 277 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,480 But when you look at this inventory over the last 15 years 278 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,960 that's been added on the existing mines, that hasn't been 279 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,520 due to cut off grade. Yeah, that's been at pretty much 280 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,200 the same kind of average grade that these mines have had for 281 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,120 the whole time. So that's not a function of 282 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,960 people just dropping cut off grade and just making the 283 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,840 resource bigger. That's a function of them just 284 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,200 finding this similar material they're mining, but just more of 285 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,680 it. And the, and the point of it was 286 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,480 that if you look at these top 12 mines in 1929, I think it's like 287 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,360 8 or nine of them are still in production now, right? 288 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,280 So like, you know, so for example, Bingham Canyon is still 289 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,240 in production. Chuki Kamata is still in 290 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,440 production. Morenci. 291 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,120 Yeah, El teniente Morenci from Miami. 292 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,920 Yeah. So a lot of these are still 293 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,440 still operating. And this kind of goes back to, I 294 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,400 guess one of the other things that, you know, we'll kind of 295 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,880 get into is that, like, why do big companies look for these 296 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,080 things? Right, it's because they exist 297 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,160 for 100 years and you can keep mining them for for essentially, 298 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,960 you know, 100 years and you because you'll keep finding more 299 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,280 and more material, you know, like for example, in the chart 300 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,160 that which is made like you know, you look at it and you go 301 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,600 so the total. Resource in 1929 in these top 12 302 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,720 mines was 50 million tonnes. And so from 1929 till now we 303 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,360 have mined 136 million tonnes of copper out of those. 304 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,920 So, so we've mined three times the amount of resource that was 305 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,720 listed, you know, like in 19301929. 306 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,360 All right. I was just going to say quickly 307 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,400 for the benefit of the money miners as well, just explaining 308 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,560 what what a cut off grade actually is as well. 309 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,440 Yeah. So, so cut off grade, and it's 310 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,760 like layman's terms is basically your economic threshold above 311 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,200 which you think you can make money. 312 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,880 So, so if a cut off grade, you know, like if you read it, if it 313 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,200 says 1%, what you're effectively saying is that any raw material 314 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,000 below 1% copper is something you're not likely going to make 315 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,400 money on. So that's your economic line. 316 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,360 And so as copper prices have increased, that line drops as 317 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,600 well. So you know, say if the unit 318 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,720 value of 1 tonne of copper increases, you can then mine 319 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,720 lower grade material because you're getting a higher unit 320 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:13,560 value. Out of it. 321 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,920 Right. And the example of this is like, 322 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,640 you know, like things like diamonds or gold or higher unit 323 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,480 value. So you can mine less gold for 324 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,440 exactly the same economic payoff as mining something like copper. 325 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,960 Perfect. So I'm very keen to go down the, 326 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:32,240 the path of M&A and what the the major companies are looking for 327 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,440 and you know Philo, these sorts of things that we've seen 328 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,840 lately. But to round out on the, the 329 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,000 point about the, the shortage, you know, the the big question 330 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,000 out there like are we going to have a shortage? 331 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,000 What is the kind of consensus you come to? 332 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,600 Perhaps not. I mean you can maybe break it up 333 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,160 into a short, medium and and longer term time frame. 334 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,840 I mean, like, so like, I mean, Richardson Pietro's work shows 335 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:59,640 and in the short term, existing assets will fit, will fill any 336 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:00,960 copper demand we're going to have. 337 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,720 Now, that doesn't mean that they're going to like fill this 338 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,040 demand forever, right? Like resources are, are finite 339 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,200 resources, You know, they're, they're not renewable. 340 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,000 So at some point they will hit a line where we're not going to 341 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,599 mine them anymore and they're going to shut down. 342 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,560 So, so, so the, my, my point is that we don't need, it's not 343 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,359 that I'm not saying that we don't need new copper 344 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,280 discoveries. I'm just saying that I think we 345 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,000 have to be a little bit realistic about that. 346 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,240 Our copper discoveries that, that this kind of rhetoric 347 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,280 that's out there now that we got to go and find new copper 348 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,920 discoveries, Are they really going to fill the demand that we 349 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,080 have in the short to kind of medium term? 350 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,800 You know, like I think that's unrealistic, but we do need new 351 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,520 copper discoveries to fill the medium to long term kind of 352 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,440 demand that we're going to have of copper going forward. 353 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,880 Do you think copper recycling will have any material sort of 354 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,840 impact on perhaps filling that more medium to longer term 355 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,160 shortage? I think it will, you know, like 356 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,920 it recycling. I think if you look at kind of 357 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,920 like when recycling programmes work and how they work, I think 358 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,880 recycling programmes work when your demand is kind of fixed to 359 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,800 some degree, right? Like so you can, you can recycle 360 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,120 material and you can fill the the fixed demand that you're 361 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,720 going to have going forward. I think recycling will never 362 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,120 really be a substantial thing if your demand keeps increasing 363 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,160 because, yeah, like, yeah, like, and also, I mean, I think JD, 364 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,120 you made the point, right? Like a lot of copper goes into 365 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,520 infrastructure. So in order to recycle that, 366 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,400 that would suggest that you have to take down infrastructure to 367 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,600 to use that in new infrastructure. 368 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,360 And what we're saying is, you know, like we don't have the 369 00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:35,480 amount of copper infrastructure we need to build more. 370 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,840 So I'm just not sure recycling is ever going to be a 371 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,760 substantial amount in in that sense. 372 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,200 You can't recycle your way to growth. 373 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,720 Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, I mean, like the 374 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,360 recycling will, I think fill the void. 375 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:47,160 And I think it's it's a good thing we should do. 376 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,160 If that means we have one less copper mine in the world because 377 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,800 we can recycle enough copper to to fill that demand, then I 378 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,960 think we should. And universally, I don't think 379 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,560 we recycle. Yeah. 380 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,960 Like, we're not very good at designing things in the way that 381 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,640 we can recycle metals efficiently. 382 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,880 But I think, yeah, definitely we should go down that path. 383 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,880 But it's never going to be more than like a small slice of the 384 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,520 pie, really. Right. 385 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,160 So let's talk about the exploration strategies of the 386 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,720 major miners and following on, I guess we can talk about why 387 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,440 specifically they are always looking for these porphyry style 388 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,120 projects. And maybe, you know, you can 389 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,880 throw in a couple of critiques of the way in which they size 390 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,240 their beds or maybe why they're opting to to buy this build 391 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,760 projects themselves. Yeah. 392 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,720 So they, I mean, so you know, like as a kind of a general 393 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,080 view, you know, like there are several copper deposit styles 394 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,680 you can go for and it and I find like, you know, someone that 395 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,480 kind of views this market or has to comment on it, I find that it 396 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,600 seems to be very like a bimodal distribution, right, That, you 397 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,400 know, majors only go for very, very select deposits. 398 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,840 Like yeah, like they will go for pool free deposits. 399 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,200 And for people that don't know, like, you know what we mean by 400 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,040 pool freeze, Pool freeze are, you know, like these large kind 401 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,840 of high tonnage, you know, big deposits, but they tend to be 402 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,640 low ish grade, you know, like you're talking about. 403 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,560 Like half a percent to a percent copper. 404 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,480 If a pore free deposit tends to be bigger than that, you know, 405 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,800 it's quite a unique kind of deposit in that sense. 406 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,840 And for, you know, like for anyone that's a part time 407 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,960 geologist, you know, pore free deposits are essentially things 408 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,960 that formed in volcanoes Once Upon a time. 409 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,280 So yeah. So that's kind of like their 410 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,360 link. So, yeah, so majors are like 411 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,520 predominantly only really looking for pore freeze and 412 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,600 these large sediment holster deposits like the copper belt in 413 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,480 in Africa. And there's a fundamental 414 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,760 reason, you know, these things tend to be really big and they 415 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,120 tend to have a great profile that they can mine these things 416 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,760 for like 50 or 100 years. And and so majors aren't 417 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,520 interested in copper deposits that are say small but high 418 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,680 grade, you know, so like things like what sand fire kind of goes 419 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,160 after things like that in Spain. You know, these tend to be high 420 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,000 grade, but quite small. Doesn't mean they're not 421 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,240 economic. You know, they're quite 422 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,840 economic, but they're not going to have the like the mine life 423 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,640 that that interests a BHP or something like that. 424 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,640 And so, yeah, so I think it's, you know, like over the last 425 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,840 kind of, I could say like 1020 years, I think there's been like 426 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,320 a very like quite a divide in the industry in that sense. 427 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,640 You know, like, you know, like we were talking about this, you 428 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,120 know, there's not a lot of copper meteors now, you know, 429 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,000 they've all been swallowed. So you have this kite like 430 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,640 dichotomy. Like, you know, majors will only 431 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,800 look for porphyries in a certain type of deposits and they're 432 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,080 only interested in those assets. And then there's juniors who 433 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,880 realistically can't build a big porphyry mine at like 4 or $5 434 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,920 billion CapEx. So they'll go look for these 435 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,600 small things, you know, like and then that's kind of divided the 436 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,720 market really, really clearly I think. 437 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,640 Yeah. I mean, it sort of seems to come 438 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,720 from a place and this is probably far too blunt an 439 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,720 assessment, but bulk commodities tend to to make serious money 440 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,920 and, you know, smaller operations. 441 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,200 Yeah. You know, perhaps they're a bit 442 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,680 more cyclical. Yeah, as one way to kind of put 443 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,280 them. But you, you look at all the 444 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,560 majors and it's, it's iron ore and it's cooking, cooking and 445 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,240 thermal coal. At least it has been for a long 446 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:18,280 time. That's right. 447 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,160 And I think, you know, like you can understand, like, you know, 448 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,200 a company like BHP really for it to kind of add the, the gravitas 449 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:25,920 that it wants inside its organisation. 450 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,800 You know, it really only goes for bulk commodities. 451 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,560 And my view is that I think mages really look at copper as a 452 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,520 bulk commodity, right? So the sort of go after assets 453 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,080 that filled the, that filled the kind of bulk commodity view of 454 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,080 the world, right? They're not looking for things 455 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,720 that have a mine life for 1020 years. 456 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,640 They're looking for something that you know will will exist 457 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,200 for 50 years or something. So we're talking about 458 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,200 porphyries. What other sort of styles of 459 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,320 copper deposits are out there sort of for for the non 460 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,280 geological minds and sort of what, why, why are they sort of 461 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,400 what are the differences between that those and a porphyries as 462 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,360 far as you know the grades and scales and sort of economics you 463 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:08,280 can expect from each of them? Yeah. 464 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,480 So that's a good question. Yeah. 465 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,720 So porphyries tend to be, like I said, yeah, it's kind of like 466 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,480 like a continuum, right. So like porphyries will be at 467 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,440 one end, you know, they tend to be really, really big, you know, 468 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,240 kind of lowish grade that usually tend to be. 469 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,080 Not very, you know, like they don't tend to have a lot of 470 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,280 elements in them. So, you know, so they tend to be 471 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,120 the copper or they'll be copper, gold or copper Molly, something 472 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:38,200 like that, which which makes them easier from a processing. 473 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,400 Point of view because you don't have to figure out where all the 474 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,320 elements are going. And so, you know, sediment 475 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,680 hosted tend to be on on the same spectrum that they, they can be 476 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,840 really big, they can be also small. 477 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,880 That's a genesis kind of thing like how they get formed. 478 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,600 But they tend to be usually copper or cobalt. 479 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,040 You know, like and they don't get a lot of other elements 480 00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:59,480 attached into them. So these are the the Africans, 481 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,280 the DRC. The yeah, that's fine. 482 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,480 Yeah. And yeah, like in their yeah. 483 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,120 And then they kind of fit. I mean, like the Central African 484 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,040 copper belt is kind of like the type example of them, but 485 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,560 there's also like the Cooper Shifa, which is one in Poland. 486 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,960 Yeah. So they tend to be this big 487 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,120 deposits that can be mined for a long time as well. 488 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,440 And then we've got the, you know, the Spanish examples, the 489 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,000 the Matzes, Rio Tinto, the original sort of project. 490 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:26,840 That's right. Yeah, that's right. 491 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,040 So they tend to be more of these deposit style called VMS or 492 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,560 Volcan volcanogenic massive sulphides. 493 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,840 And they tend to be like much higher grade usually on that 494 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,760 spectrum, but they tend to have other things, you know, so 495 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,320 they're often lead or zinc associated with silver, gold, 496 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,200 you know, like all of these things kind of come in. 497 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,400 So they tend to be smaller, you know, metallurgically usually a 498 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,240 little bit more complicated, you know, like they, they are a 499 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,720 little bit harder to find as well because they tend to be a 500 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,040 smaller deposit to find. So you what you find is like, 501 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,080 you know, they're they're the deposits that you know, smaller 502 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,080 to mid tier kind of companies go after. 503 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,680 Companies that can't spend, you know, billions of dollars 504 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,680 building a mine. And that's the other thing you 505 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,240 know, like sediment hosted and pull freeze, you know, the CapEx 506 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,840 required for them on the economic side, it's almost 507 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,400 always a billion plus that you know, like you're kind of 508 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,640 looking to build. And then you know, like you have 509 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,760 other things like, you know, some people target copper 510 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,640 deposits which are associated with with nickel and mafic 511 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,360 intrusions, you know, like that's another end member. 512 00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:33,440 So some people target them, but that's like, you know, most 513 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,280 people don't do it. Primarily they're looking for 514 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,200 nickel, copper and PG ES and that that type of stuff that 515 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,800 they find there. Olympic Dam type IOCG. 516 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,280 Is that the other one? Yeah. 517 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,520 Yeah. So IOCGS are another where you 518 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,680 know, like there's some some IOCGS that can be mined almost 519 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,640 like a bulk kind of operation. And so, so again, majors are 520 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,920 interested in them. I think a little bit of that is. 521 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,560 You know, majors go in them, like particularly BHP goes into 522 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,560 them because they hold Olympic Dam. 523 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,000 So you know, so it's a deposit style, they understand, they 524 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,880 understand the processing of it, they understand the 525 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,160 complications of it. So you know, so they go down 526 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,680 that path. But so like I said, like you 527 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,080 know, to answer your question, there's deposit styles like 528 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,400 IOCG, sediment hosted Porfree, that's it on one then which are 529 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,320 CapEx intensive, you know, usually lowish grade but high 530 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,520 tonnage. And then there's another 531 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,240 spectrum which is more the BMS and carbonate hosted and a few 532 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,000 other deposit styles that fit in there and they tend to be higher 533 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,000 grade, but much smaller, but very low CapEx intensity. 534 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,280 Great. That's good summary. 535 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,720 So I want to pivot the the conversation briefly to 536 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,880 commodity price forecasting and I guess this layers in with what 537 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,280 we'd initially discussed. We're we're pretty critical on 538 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,200 the show about anyone's kind of ability. 539 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,920 And I mean, we just just listening to calls this week, 540 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,480 you kind of heard it. You know, I think Chris Ellison 541 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,240 said on the min raise, cool, I've got no idea where lithium 542 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,160 is. It's going. 543 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,280 I certainly didn't think it was going under 1000 bucks a tonne. 544 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,440 And yeah, you can you can kind of see that across the spectrum, 545 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,120 even some companies who pump a phenomenal amount of money into 546 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,160 into the research side of things get it wrong. 547 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,720 And you showed me this this fascinating chart, which again 548 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,880 will will pop up on the YouTube about long term copper 549 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,160 forecasts. You know, I think they're kind 550 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,640 of clumping together a whole bunch of analysts sort of 551 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,240 forming a consensus view. But what what's your sort of 552 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,160 take away and how you think about companies forecasting the 553 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,840 the price of commodities? Yeah. 554 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,760 I mean, I think as a general statement, I think we do it 555 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,880 pretty badly, I think. And that's not, not just 556 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,960 commodity price forecast. I think if you look at forecasts 557 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,840 of other commodities like orange juice and things like that, you 558 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,640 know, like similar problems exist in in that space as well, 559 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,560 is that generally most commodity forecasts tend to be really good 560 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,440 in the short term, but they tend to be horrible in the long term. 561 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,000 And and it's just because, yeah, part of that I think, I mean, 562 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,160 this is just my opinion. Part of that is I think some 563 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,720 commodities don't really have a relationship to supply demand 564 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,760 curves. They have more of a relationship 565 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,280 to the futures that people are investing in them and 566 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,240 speculation of what they think the future price of certain 567 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,760 commodities is going to be. I think that's driving commodity 568 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,760 price more. But the challenge for I think 569 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,320 mining companies is that, I mean, the reason why I always 570 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,160 like showing this graph is like, you know, when I worked in 571 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,080 companies, we looked at consensus price forecast 572 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,000 religiously, right? And we would use those as a way 573 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,760 of deciding whether we would build things. 574 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,880 And then when I see this graph, which you guys report, and just 575 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,200 to explain it, yeah, in that graph, the black line that you 576 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,600 see is the actual copper price. And the coloured lines that you 577 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,360 see that end up with a dot are the consensus price forecast of 578 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,400 what people thought was going to happen over the next five years. 579 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,720 Right. So just as a general reference, 580 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,800 the black line is what was the actual price. 581 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,720 And if you connect all the dots that you see, the blue dots, 582 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,800 that is what people thought was actually going to be the copper 583 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,400 price. Yeah, in the future. 584 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,200 And so you see that there's absolutely no relationship 585 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,360 offset by about five years. It's a consensus price forecast. 586 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,520 And for example, on the graph you can look at like, you know, 587 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,240 look at December 2005. So just after that, you know, 588 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,080 the the price was nearly $5 per pound. 589 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,160 And the forecast had predicted a couple of years before that it 590 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,640 would be close to $1.00, right? Like that's not really like a 591 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,360 sound mechanism to actually develop, you know, like whether 592 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,760 you should go ahead with the decision to build things or not. 593 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,120 But, you know, we used to use these things as like, you know, 594 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,920 like gospel, like, you know, we could not not touch these things 595 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,400 at all. And then when you go and look at 596 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,360 this, I mean, you go actually our ability to predict this 597 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,000 stuff is we're in this, you know, like we're, we're going to 598 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,240 be. Out by a factor of 5. 599 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,520 Like, yeah, that's not really a good way to kind of operate. 600 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,480 And that's. Pretty business. 601 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,840 Pretty scary thing, right? Because, I mean, this is one of 602 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,640 the main tools companies are using to make decisions on, you 603 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,080 know, whether to develop things or not. 604 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,120 And most of the time it's wrong. Yeah. 605 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,240 No, no, no. That's right. 606 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,320 And so, so, yeah, so the, the, I guess, I guess I don't have an 607 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:03,800 alternative to what you do, right. 608 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:05,960 Like I wouldn't put you on the spot like that. 609 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,560 Yeah. And and so this so this is where 610 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,280 I think kind of the problem comes and, and to back to, you 611 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,480 know, like one of the topics we talked about is why do companies 612 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,360 like why are they buying assets that I say producing now versus 613 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,520 buying things that could be put into development is because you 614 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,840 don't know what the future kind of looks like. 615 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,680 Yeah. So, so it's much better to buy 616 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,320 something now and you know that the price is probably going to 617 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,040 be right for the next year. So you know what what you're 618 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,360 what you're kind of buying and how you can kind of optimise and 619 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,720 then go and then. And if that works financially, I 620 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,320 think then yeah, you hedge on on the price in the future doing 621 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,160 something and and you can then make the the alpha that you want 622 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,320 on that. By the time the sales process is 623 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,480 closed, most that year is kind of gone and then it's all yeah, 624 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,200 yeah. Yeah. 625 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,200 I mean, there's also examples, like there's a classic example 626 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,720 of when BHP sold its coal asset in I think is in Colombia, you 627 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,080 know, like, and Glencoe bought it, you know, like, and by the 628 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,920 time that the deal actually got finished, you know, Glencoe had 629 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,680 made so much money out of out of just the coal price moving that 630 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,840 they could just like they could pay for the purchase of the mine 631 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,360 through just that year's worth of price movement and, and the 632 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,720 revenue they got out. Of what a champagne problem to 633 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,240 have, because I was going to say actually, while we're on that as 634 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,800 well, I mean, I mean that's also sort of, you know, one reason 635 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,920 why we're we're seeing a lot of people, you know, buying rather 636 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,800 than, you know, slash building discovering. 637 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,760 And we saw, you know, so the recent manoeuvres this, you 638 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,520 know, the BHP and Anglo and then it went, you know, BHP London 639 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,760 and and the fellow assets as well. 640 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,760 Do you say that sort of continuing going forward like 641 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,840 that that focus of you know, sort of, you know, buying rather 642 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,960 than building in in discovery? Yeah, I think so. 643 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,000 I think, I think there's more risk in developing these big 644 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,480 assets and and I think some of it is perceived, but some of it 645 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,760 is is real. Yeah. 646 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,680 Like I think it's hard to build these things. 647 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,680 It's hard to build them on time, you know, without having cost 648 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,320 blowouts and things like that as well. 649 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,680 And there's plenty of those, you know, stories around the traps. 650 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,760 So I think, you know, so companies I think are now, you 651 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,600 know, like probably happy to pay a premium to pay for something 652 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,200 that's already in production that like that they don't have 653 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,000 to worry about how, how they're going to make it work and they 654 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,160 can expand it along the way. And that kind of goes back to 655 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,640 the, you know, the research that Richard and Pietro have done, 656 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,160 which shows that, you know, like when an asset is already there, 657 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,160 it's it's much easier to grow that resource base and add it 658 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,720 into into production rather than have to go find a new mine and 659 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,440 go through the permitting process of building it and doing 660 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:47,920 all of all of those things as well. 661 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,440 So, yeah, so I I think people will happily pay a premium now 662 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,040 for something that's already in production it. 663 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,720 It makes the Phyllo example particularly interesting because 664 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,080 the the the stab they had at Anglo was for producing assets. 665 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,440 The Phyllo 1 is, you know, very family development. 666 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,800 Yeah, that's right. It's, I mean, it'd be 667 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,440 interesting to see how that goes along. 668 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,360 Like, you know, I mean, you know, like I'm not completely a 669 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,880 fait with what Filo has done from a permitting side of things 670 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,120 or whether they've gone down that path, but I think that's 671 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,280 more of a play as well. Like, you know, you've got a 672 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,440 number of substantial deposits close by. 673 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,960 So if you can kind of put them together, you know, like that 674 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,120 kind of gives them the scale of operation that probably a 675 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,720 company like BHP is looking for. So I think it's more of a play 676 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,880 and you know, like how can you kind of put all of these things 677 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,920 together so you're not completely dependent on one 678 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,360 asset kind of working, You know, you can kind of make them work 679 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,800 in in a hub kind of model. On, on the point on commodity 680 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,360 price for forecasting once more, do you, do you think this is 681 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,200 something that people from other industries would kind of look in 682 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,320 at the the mining sector and just not be able to wrap their 683 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,920 head around how you know, you can't control, you know, P in 684 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,760 your P * Q equation or you can just be so horribly wrong in, in 685 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,080 forecasting. I guess it just hones in focus 686 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,600 on controlling your costs, but that should be a staple in any, 687 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,120 in any kind of business. But I mean, do you think there's 688 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,280 sort of gaps like that that lie in in other sectors that perhaps 689 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,679 I just haven't spent too much time looking at? 690 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,760 Well, I mean, yeah, like I'll kind of say this. 691 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,320 I mean, one of the most challenging things about the 692 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,760 mining industry is that the companies are price takers and 693 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,480 not price setters. You know, like the, you know, 694 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,600 like if you're, you know, like if you're Apple, you can kind of 695 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,920 set the price of your consumer goods to some degree. 696 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,760 And, and you know, you can back it up with some level of 697 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,360 marketing and things like that. You know, like if you had gone 698 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,000 to set to, to, to say to someone that you could charge $2000.00 699 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,600 for a phone, you know, like, prior to the advent of 700 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,159 smartphones, like people would have thought that was 701 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,840 ridiculous, right? But, but they have created the, 702 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,080 the marketplace. I think now that that you can 703 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,199 kind of do that, you know, whereas commodities, you know, 704 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,760 like as a company, there's very few companies that get to set 705 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,840 their own price, right. So I mean, companies like 706 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,440 Glencoe can kind of benefit from the commodity trading point of 707 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,120 view on the other side, but but you're fundamentally not setting 708 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,520 the price for genuine for a good reason, you know, like you know, 709 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,760 otherwise it would be a monopoly kind of set up which which which 710 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,520 wouldn't work for anyone. I suppose the, the kind of 711 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,920 saving grace or one of the, the factors that the mining industry 712 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,840 has in its favour is that there's probably a lot more 713 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,480 continuity. Like if you're if you're getting 714 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,680 a world class iron ore operation, you know the the set 715 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,960 of companies that had them 50 years ago are still around, 716 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,080 whereas the set of top tier tech companies as your example was is 717 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,120 completely different. That's right. 718 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,400 Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think that's, I mean, 719 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,800 that's a really good point in that, you know, like, I mean, 720 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,000 this is where I think This is why people like these long life 721 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,960 assets as well. Like, you know, they exist for a 722 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,080 long time. Yeah, it's hard to replace them 723 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:53,280 as well. Like, you know, if the Pilbara 724 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,920 didn't exist, you know, like it'll be pretty hard to replace 725 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,360 that amount of iron ore coming from like, you know, like 10 726 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,280 different kind of kind of mines as well. 727 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,400 And that's also, I think, you know, like this is maybe more of 728 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,360 a, like a personal point of view is that I just think, you know, 729 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,840 also if you're the executive for a company like BHP, you know, 730 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:17,160 like it's, I would think it's much easier to have one or two 731 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,080 kind of assets in your, in your portfolio that produce rather 732 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,640 than having 20 assets that you have to manage and like produce 733 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,360 the same amount of copper. Like, you know, like 734 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,640 operationally and logistically, that's a much bigger problem 735 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,240 than, you know, like, I'd much rather take something like 736 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:34,800 Escondida. I just have 1 copper asset that 737 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,240 runs for a long time rather than have, you know, like 20 assets 738 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:39,600 that produce the same amount of copper. 739 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,360 But you are at different stages where you got to build this 740 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,000 thing out, you got to expand this thing. 741 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,240 You know, that's I think a much more challenging kind of 742 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,040 operation as well for a large company. 743 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,840 I'm just churning in light, but as Ahmed mentioned, verify. 744 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,360 Yet he's always been a serial verify mentioner. 745 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,720 He. Has, although is there a verify 746 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:00,120 model for Eskandida? How good that is? 747 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,000 I've seen the one for for Kamal Kakula that's pretty good. 748 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,520 Yes, yes, but yeah, that's well if it's good enough for Kamal 749 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,000 Kakula, it should be good enough for Escondida. 750 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,080 Well, and as he's didn't he say like once in a one in 100 year 751 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,640 discovery? Yeah, one, one in a 100 year, 752 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,520 you know, And if you got people like, you know, Robert Friedland 753 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,880 using it, why aren't you? Why? 754 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,120 Why aren't you trying to find the next Escondida with a verify 755 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,520 model? Escondida verify model would 756 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,520 started small. It's growing into Escondida. 757 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,280 Verify models grow proportionally to how much you 758 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,160 drill and find. You know what Escondida means in 759 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,360 Spanish? What does it mean? 760 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:39,760 Hidden. Verify it means hidden. 761 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,720 Yeah, it does. Yeah, yeah, because it's like 762 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:45,160 500 means below the surface. Unlike you out love for verify 763 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,800 which is not hidden. So prevalent. 764 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,480 Explain your story. Simply go for news. 765 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,280 Verify. News verify and go get an 766 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,680 Escondido India. And the verify AI to actually 767 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,400 find these hidden deposits. Yes, email Grant and even 768 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,520 better, go have a beer with Grant 'cause he is AGC. 769 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,680 If you're in Perth as well, Nathan. 770 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,320 Oh, big knife, yeah. They're all over. 771 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,880 They're all over the world. Yeah, yeah, you'll see him at 772 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,560 the bloody IGIS and everything. They're just everywhere. 773 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,800 Go verify. Yeah, I think it's a kind of 774 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,320 reflects on the the management and the CEO and how they are in 775 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,240 their headspace and how they think about things. 776 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:26,200 It was interesting to listen to the the call with Brendan Harris 777 00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:29,840 at Sandfire and he held a similar view to to you there 778 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:33,840 talking about not wanting to develop Black Butte unless it, 779 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,440 you know, reaches substantial scale because it adds another 780 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:37,680 time zone. There's a whole another 781 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,640 workforce. Yeah, another office. 782 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,880 And, you know, it's kind of refreshing to to hear that it's, 783 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,120 yeah, like you said, it's so much harder to have all these 784 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,880 moving parts around. You actually hone in on BHB, for 785 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,120 example. And it's perhaps not as 786 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,640 confusing as people may initially think. 787 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,560 You know, you've got 2/3 of the revenue iron ore, then you've 788 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,760 got cooking coal now and you've got copper and there's bits. 789 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,480 They're trying and they're sinking money into potash here 790 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,000 and there. But they've done well to to 791 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,480 simplify the kind of narrative in. 792 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,960 The yeah, and I think that's the adage, right? 793 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,080 You know, do do less, but better, right like, you know, 794 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,080 like really know the businesses you're in. 795 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,280 And I think that's that's that's a much more effective strategy. 796 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,560 And I think this like simplification also I think 797 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,400 leads to why, you know, like to your comment about like 798 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,760 geographical spread. I think, you know, This is why 799 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,640 also people concentrate on certain geographies or certain 800 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,680 deposit styles maybe is because it's, it's much better like, you 801 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,960 know, you remove degrees of freedom, you know, like, so if 802 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,560 you're a company like BHP or you're Anglo, you know, you're 803 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,920 in Chile, you know, like there's not a huge incentive to go take 804 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,400 on the risk of like trying to develop something in the DRC or 805 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,400 like sub Saharan Africa or things like that. 806 00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:52,440 You know, like geographically, you know, you probably 807 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,200 concentrated become a little bit more conservative because you 808 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,480 know, that jurisdiction, you know, the way of how to work 809 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,720 with parties and things like that, you know, like why 810 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:02,960 complicated by trying to take on, you know, like 10 different 811 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,040 jurisdictions. So yeah, so that I think 812 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,200 realistically, if you're a business, you know, you want to 813 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,600 take complexity out of your business. 814 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,400 So it makes total sense why you want to do that. 815 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,480 I want to dive a bit deeper on on BHB. 816 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,360 So you know, Olympic Dam is been there since they took over 817 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,000 Western mining 20 some years now and then they've pulled in the 818 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,280 the odds assets and they've recently for the first time come 819 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,120 out with a resource at Oak Dam. So to start with, what were your 820 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,920 thoughts on the the resource that that came out there? 821 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,240 I mean, to be honest, I think it was probably a little bit lower 822 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:37,640 grade than I thought it was going to be. 823 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,520 Yeah. Like, I know they have a high 824 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,080 grade component, but I thought that high grade component would 825 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,520 be a bigger portion of the overall deposit. 826 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,840 The overall deposit is is quite big. 827 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,680 It's it's, you know, it's probably the size of deposit 828 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,720 they would probably look at as A at a minimum. 829 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,080 But I think at that depth, you know, like it's probably. 830 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,920 Needed to be a little bit higher grade. 831 00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:01,280 But they'll probably still get developed, you know, like as an 832 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,760 asset, you know, maybe in the BHP world that asset loses 833 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,120 money. But overall, the business will 834 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,640 probably do really well out of having having something like Oak 835 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:09,640 Dam in there. Yeah. 836 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,560 And and for those curious, the the numbers that sort of came 837 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:19,000 out were 1300 and 40 million tonnes at .66% copper with .33 838 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,960 grammes per tonne in gold and the, and the ore body was 839 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,400 starting at 650 metres sort of depth. 840 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,680 Yeah. So around that 6700 metre kind 841 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,760 of depth. But this is where I think, you 842 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,640 know, like, you know, there's some synergies in how there's 843 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,720 some synergy in BHP taking over Oz because Oz is going through 844 00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:41,000 the process of developing Carapatina, which is roughly the 845 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,040 same depth. You know, it's roughly the same 846 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,320 grade profile as well. So you know, so they're going to 847 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:47,920 probably learn their lessons there. 848 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,320 So hopefully Oak Dam should go a lot smoother because you know, 849 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,360 like they've already kind of learned that lesson and have 850 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,840 that corporate knowledge to, to how to mine Oak Dam. 851 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,960 You, you talk about synergy from an IP sort of sense there, 852 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,080 right? Yeah, because I, I mean, you 853 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,520 know, like a BHP probably as a company, you know, like they're 854 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,520 pretty good at large open pits, you know, like they're not, I 855 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,960 don't think they have many assets that do large 856 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,360 underground, you know, like bulk kind of mining. 857 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:16,880 Yeah. So that's where that expertise 858 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,240 from Carapatina will kind of come in, so. 859 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,960 We're going to apply the learnings there. 860 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,000 Yeah, that's right. So that makes sense, right. 861 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,000 Like, yeah, they're the same deposit style, same like 862 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,720 geological domain really. It's going to have probably the 863 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:33,720 same level of complexity. So it makes sense. 864 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,040 I think deep, I think underground, I think DSI and I 865 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,880 think of like the deeper you go, the more concentration you need 866 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,640 of DSI bolts in the ground to keep that bloody joint humming. 867 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,160 Right. Bloody DSI set up a factory in a 868 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,880 bloody SA with all this shit happening. 869 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,000 Oh damn is oh it's pretty. Pretty deep 1,000,000 bucks a 870 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,160 drill is isn't it? Every every drill hole was like 871 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,400 a yeah, kilometre date, but I think the world works out. 872 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,240 It's like 750. Oh mate, there's going to be 873 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:06,760 millions of bucks worth of DSI bolts and mesh down in that 874 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,920 joint because who else would you buy them off? 875 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,360 I don't trying to think. No, I can't think of anyone. 876 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,200 It's just DSI. Thank God we've got them. 877 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,040 Take off. Thank God we've got DSI in 878 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,440 Australia. Go Australia. 879 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,960 Go DSI, go, Derek heard. Get on the front foot, BHP. 880 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,240 And So what are your thoughts about on sandfires, that 881 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:31,080 position of Metsa and that sort of whole Spanish region as well? 882 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,920 So this is like, you know, like stemming off from our 883 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,440 conversation, like if you're a company like Sandfire, like, you 884 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,600 know, like what type of assets could you go and buy in, in the 885 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,600 copper space? You know, like you're probably 886 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,640 not going to be able to buy like, you know, an Escondido or 887 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:47,560 or something like that. You're probably not going to be 888 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,240 able to buy something like Oz, you know, like the assets they 889 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:52,800 have. So, so I think you know, like 890 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,600 Matsa kind of fits, you know, like if I had to recommend an 891 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,480 asset that that Sanifi would have to buy, you know, that's 892 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,280 the type of asset that that you'd probably go for along with 893 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,200 the company that they bought in Botswana mod, you know, like so 894 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,600 you know, so they kind of fit in that right kind of profile. 895 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,480 Very different price tags, yeah. Yeah, I know, I know. 896 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,520 So, yeah. So I mean, I guess Spain is, you 897 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,360 know, like from a geological point of view, you know, Spain 898 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,760 is like it's the, the belt is called the Iberian pyrite belt. 899 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,400 You know, it's been mined since like the times of the Romans. 900 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,960 You know, it's where Rio Tinto kind of became Rio Tinto. 901 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,000 And so, so, you know, so Rio Tinto spent quite a lot of time 902 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,440 exploring that part of the world. 903 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,120 They didn't find anything big. You know, they found Las Cruces, 904 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,040 but it probably wasn't the right size for them. 905 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,440 So they sold it. So there's been a lot of 906 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,480 discoveries along that along that belt. 907 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,840 You know, there's about 8 to 10 kind of decent discoveries that 908 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,320 were had, but they're not at a size where, you know, Major is 909 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:52,960 going to go in and, and attack them. 910 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,320 So I think they're the perfect kind of area for for a meteor 911 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,120 like sand file, which has growth aspirations to kind of go and go 912 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,680 and take over. So I look at like, you know, 913 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,880 like why would you buy mats? You know, it's probably 914 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,600 worthwhile to buy mats where you have a processing kind of centre 915 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,160 as well. So you don't have to go down 916 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,240 that path. Then once you have the 917 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:16,160 processing centre, it's the old kind of WA gold adage that you 918 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,240 know the person that has a milk and then they'll have gold from 919 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:21,000 all these small things kind of coming through. 920 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,080 Yeah, what happened? Spoke. 921 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:24,800 Yeah. So that's I think maybe the 922 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,320 like, you know, I'm I'm just saying this as a external person 923 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,760 that that's I think maybe their angle is that, you know, the get 924 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,360 a foothold would get a keystone kind of anchor. 925 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,480 And then a lot of these kind of other deposits start becoming 926 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,360 live because you know you you are the only party that they can 927 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,360 sell to are. You surprised that we haven't 928 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,120 seen any of that consolidation yet or is that just a factor of 929 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,000 how much debt sand fire kind of took on and the fact that they 930 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,560 might need to just you know balance the. 931 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,520 Yeah, I guess, yeah. Like again, assuming that they 932 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,880 would have probably predicted copper price to have peaked by 933 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,320 now. So, so they would have been able 934 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,520 to kind of go and and you know like a either pay off the debt 935 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,920 so the balance sheet looks better or be able to go and and 936 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,360 transact on these things. So maybe they're kind of holding 937 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,960 the powder dry until, you know, the market kind of allows them 938 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,120 to to expand as quickly or as aggressively as they want. 939 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,160 And actually on that consolidations sort of strategy 940 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:28,160 as well, I mean do you think you know Sapphire as a say or just 941 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,800 more generally a mid tier is perhaps the more capable sort of 942 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,560 size company to do that sort of regional consolidation then 943 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,200 perhaps a major? Yeah. 944 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,320 I just think, yeah, like the major would, it'll be too. 945 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,200 It wouldn't be cost effective for them to do like a lot of 946 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,600 these small things, you know, like even think like, you know, 947 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,400 things like, you know, like when even a company like WMC couldn't 948 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,120 kind of hold Cambaldo together, you know, like even those assets 949 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,680 kind of became too small for a company like WMCWMC at that time 950 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,720 was probably a mid tier, you know, like maybe a upper tier 951 00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:09,560 kind of mid tier. But yeah, so I think they're 952 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,320 just too small. Like, you know, you there, there 953 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,000 would be so much lost between the the seat cushions for for 954 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,600 company like BHP to try to put all of that stuff together that 955 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:19,960 just wouldn't be worth it for them. 956 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,160 There there was also speculation back on sand fire that they 957 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,920 would scoop up Comic cow. Yeah, they ruled themselves out 958 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,440 relatively early in the in the process there. 959 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:36,440 But the company that's ended up buying at NMGI think you have 960 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,480 experience with back in in the mid sort of 2010. 961 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,720 So have you, did you make an assessment at the time of what 962 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:46,600 you thought of the, the price they paid the, the asset and 963 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,840 these sorts of things? Yeah. 964 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,360 So I think, I mean, you're right, Like I, I would have 965 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,720 predicted if they'd gone after like a company like MOD, they 966 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:56,560 would have gone after some of the other assets there as well. 967 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,400 Yeah, like I'm not sure exactly why they didn't. 968 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,000 I mean, I think, I think they could have gone for it, you 969 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,480 know, like the MMG asset is maybe not the same, same level 970 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,360 as as the mod assets. So, so maybe they would have 971 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,720 gone for that, like they went for the the best thing they 972 00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,560 could go for. But yeah, I'm not sure. 973 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,280 Like I think, you know, like that's also another space. 974 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,800 You know, there's a few deposits there that found in that belt. 975 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,320 You know, they've grown significantly since then, you 976 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,760 know, like, so someone can come along and kind of put that back 977 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,960 together. But the general view that I have 978 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,840 is I think, yeah, like in principle, I think it's easy to 979 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,480 say people should go and kind of put these things together. 980 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,080 But I think the, you know, like the timing of when like the deal 981 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,280 window for all these assets kind of aligns. 982 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,120 You know, it's kind of like the Swiss cheese model, right? 983 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:44,720 Like all the holes have to kind of align. 984 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,960 And I think that's, that's sometimes a little bit hard 985 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:52,480 unless someone goes and is ultra aggressive and is happy to pay 986 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,080 premiums to kind of get deals done because they know it'll 987 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,040 it'll kind of amalgamate and, and, and there'll be the benefit 988 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,000 down the line. How do you think about, you 989 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,200 know, given you've got a a few years of experience on, on me 990 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,960 that the the timing of you know, acquiring the assets as well as 991 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,440 getting the financing done to to develop it if we're talking 992 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,640 about acquiring it? Yeah. 993 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,920 So I think one of the risks that's kind of coming in now is 994 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,440 that, yeah, like as a development timeline blows out, 995 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,960 you know, the risk you have. Is that if? 996 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:26,520 If you if you're developing an asset and you miss commodity 997 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,000 price boom, then it's really hard to get that that money 998 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,920 back, you know, like all over the time. 999 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,680 So I think that's why, you know, people are aggressively going 1000 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,280 after assets that are already in production because then when, 1001 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,800 you know, it's much easier to expand a mine and you know, I 1002 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,480 can mine more while you're sitting on the asset than having 1003 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,800 to worry about trying to get a government to hurry up or, you 1004 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,040 know, like trying to push environmental permitting through 1005 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,800 when when kind of the price is kind of booming as well. 1006 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,200 So, yeah, so there's always these like windows where I think 1007 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,640 people are happy to pay that premium in M&A because they know 1008 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,280 that, you know, like when the the market flips, you know, like 1009 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,960 they're in the perfect position to kind of, you know, like take 1010 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,120 advantage of that price, price spike that comes along. 1011 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,680 And one of the classic examples of this is, you know, like when 1012 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,960 when BHP bought WMC, you know, like, like for all intensive 1013 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:21,240 purposes, BHP wasn't buying WMC for for it's nickel assets, you 1014 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:24,720 know, but they bought it the you know, the deal was done in 2004, 1015 00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:28,480 2005 and then 678 was probably one of the the biggest nickel 1016 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,720 booms we've ever seen. So, you know, at one point 1017 00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:33,640 nickel W was probably making more profit than other parts of 1018 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,840 BHP just by pure not not coincidence. 1019 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,920 But yeah, it wasn't probably something that they had planned 1020 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,840 for nickel. To go to 50. $1000 per tonne and 1021 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,880 yeah and just be creamy money out so yeah. 1022 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,560 So they you know, so like the the numbers that I heard is 1023 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,360 like, you know during that time the the nickel business would 1024 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,480 have like far outpaid any of its costs for trying to buy that 1025 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,040 business at that time just over a couple of years. 1026 00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:03,160 And that was purely because all those assets were in operation, 1027 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,160 and all PHP had to do was sync the capital to expand them. 1028 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,400 And they did that pretty quickly, pretty aggressively. 1029 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,160 And then, you know, they were kind of off to the races. 11 1030 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,560 region we haven't spoken about is, is Mongolia with obviously 1031 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:21,080 the OT being the the flagship asset in the area there. 1032 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,760 Now that's got a a long and interesting history with with 1033 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,200 Ivanhoe and then Yep, Turquoise Hill and Rio Tinto. 1034 00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:32,720 What what are your thoughts? Not on OT itself, but on juniors 1035 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:36,120 in in the area. In Mongolia you mean? 1036 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,040 Yeah, in Mongolia. I mean, I think that's, I think 1037 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,720 that's a classic kind of case of your question in that, yeah, 1038 00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:48,240 it's probably a terrain that majors are probably not going to 1039 00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:49,960 go into. So it creates a space for 1040 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,680 juniors to go in and then and then, you know, like, and that's 1041 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:59,040 I think the part where the really aggressive kind of 1042 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,040 juniors that are happy to go into those terrains, you know, 1043 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,000 they can kind of do that work. And that's where I think their 1044 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,480 space kind of fills in really well is that they're happy to 1045 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,400 take that risk. You know, like they don't really 1046 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,480 have much on the line, so they can kind of go and do that 1047 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,440 stuff. And so the question really 1048 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,240 becomes is, you know, like when the junior finds something 1049 00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,400 that's bigger than his boots, like what are they going to do 1050 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,480 with it? Like are they going to be able 1051 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,800 to raise the money? You know, like if you're 100 1052 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,680 million like market cap junior and you got to build a mine for 1053 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,560 $2 billion, like how how are? You going to? 1054 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:30,600 How does that work? Yeah. 1055 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,560 Like how are you going to do the even the like 6040 debt kind of 1056 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,120 equity thing, like how are you going to do that? 1057 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,600 Like you're just going to blow the company up if you go down 1058 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,360 that path. So, so I think, you know, like 1059 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,280 sometimes, you know, like I, I, I think it's like, you know, 1060 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,480 sometimes juniors say they're going into elephant country to 1061 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,800 catch elephants, but you know, you got to be careful because if 1062 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,520 you catch 1, like, what are you going to do with it Are? 1063 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,040 You going to get paid for it On, on the, the theme of, you know, 1064 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,720 juniors rolling the dice in, in Montgoli, is it kind of right to 1065 00:52:56,720 --> 00:53:01,720 assume, given the, the depth and the scale of these, you know, 1066 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,440 elephants that you're, you're looking for? 1067 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,720 Yeah, that exploration is a bit more expensive, not to mention 1068 00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:09,120 the, the remoteness and, and all these sorts of things. 1069 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:10,720 Is it harder to kind of roll the dice? 1070 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,320 Yeah, I think they, you know, like this is kind of I guess a 1071 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,640 dichotomy, right? Like juniors are, are not the 1072 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,600 best agents to go explore in these areas because you know, 1073 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,880 it's remote, it costs more, you know, like especially if you add 1074 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,640 in the depth component, you know, that costs more as well. 1075 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:33,040 A junior company that has to that has no revenue and has to 1076 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,920 raise their money to go and and search for things that are 1077 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,840 expensive, you know, like are they the best entity to go and 1078 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,360 kind of do this work? So, yeah. 1079 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,440 So in reality, the best entity for to do this work would be a 1080 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:45,560 major. Yeah. 1081 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,960 Because they like they can go spend this type of money and 1082 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,280 then it will be a rounding error in the stationary budget. 1083 00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:56,520 It's so they would like nobody would care this happened and 1084 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,360 they have. To roll the dice a lot of times 1085 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,280 to prepare the fruit, which, yeah, it's hard to wear. 1086 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,480 Yeah, that's why it's and this is where I guess I'm, I'm a 1087 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,840 little bit critical about when, when major sometimes say that 1088 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,080 they're looking for these, you know, when they say they're 1089 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,000 looking for an Escondido or something like that. 1090 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,280 Is that I think, I think like genuine, like genuinely like 1091 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,680 we've had one Escondida discovered in the last 100 1092 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,240 years, right. That's probably not a great 1093 00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:23,640 thing to go and explore for, you know, like what you should look 1094 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,440 for is slightly smaller things that could probably become an 1095 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,840 Escondida. Alright. 1096 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,440 And then that's a strategy that Rio is kind of adopting now. 1097 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,640 Yeah, they look for Tier 2 like large tier twos, and they're 1098 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,520 hoping that they become a tier one while they're working on it 1099 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,800 along that lines. Speed it into shape and make it 1100 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,760 a Tier 1 exit of the time. Yeah, yeah. 1101 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,520 Or or like, you know, like market conditions change and 1102 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,760 from like it becomes an economic tier one, right where where you 1103 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,240 can kind of mine it and then and then pass it on. 1104 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,280 But then, you know, like that kind of conflicts with with this 1105 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,600 strategy of having a mine that can just, you know, look exactly 1106 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,880 the same for 50 years, you know, like that, that that's the 1107 00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:59,520 problem for them. I like that. 1108 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,960 An economic tier one. Yeah, Yeah. 1109 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,840 Not a geological Tier 1. No, because I mean, once you've 1110 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,600 found the resource, like, you know, like the resource 1111 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,200 relatively doesn't change, right? 1112 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,960 Like it's, it's, it's fossilised a long time ago, but it's, it's 1113 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,840 just our, our economic perception of it or our ability 1114 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,960 to mine it and all those things that, that change over time, you 1115 00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,440 know, like, so the resource is a resource. 1116 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:25,040 It's like, you know, if it's 1% copper, you know, like there's 1117 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,000 not much you can do to get it to 10%, right? 1118 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,080 Like, you know, like it is what it is. 1119 00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:34,240 You also think it's a bit of a, you know, let, let explorers do 1120 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,040 what explorers do well. And then, you know, when it 1121 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,960 comes to that Inflexion point of, oh, the multi billion dollar 1122 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,960 CapEx bill has come come through because they've discovered this 1123 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:46,960 big thing. Then that's that's the time for 1124 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,720 these big guy or mid tiers or majors sort of to to step in. 1125 00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:53,720 Basically, yeah, completely. I think, I think it's like, 1126 00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:57,000 yeah, it's a fundamentally different skill set, I think to 1127 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:01,080 go and do like grassroots exploration as opposed to mine 1128 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:02,760 development. You know, like I wouldn't 1129 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,440 advocate people that are good at doing grassroots exploration to 1130 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,960 go become mine developers, and I wouldn't advocate mine 1131 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,920 developers to go to grassroots exploration. 1132 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,320 You know, there's fundamental drivers in that in that sense. 1133 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,400 So I think like, you know, so companies that have historically 1134 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,280 been really good explorers, you know, they tend to be explorers, 1135 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,960 you know, they tend to hold on to that kind of kind of moniker. 1136 00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,600 Whereas, you know, large companies tend to be really good 1137 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,640 at building, you know, assets and building mines and running 1138 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,000 them. You know, like they're probably 1139 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,320 not the best agents to go go and explore in certain areas. 1140 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,560 So I think that there has to be that kind of dichotomy. 1141 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,240 It's just a question of how do you incentivize each party along 1142 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,040 along the path? Like how do you incentivize 1143 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,480 juniors to do that? How do you incentivize large 1144 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,800 companies to to accept that, you know, maybe they're not going to 1145 00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,520 be the best explorers, so they should create an environment 1146 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,680 where other companies, juniors do a better job, but they still 1147 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,880 get to benefit out of it? Have you got thoughts on the the 1148 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,920 framework that we discussed with with John Ronski, his aggregator 1149 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,240 kind of model? Is that something you've spent 1150 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:09,320 time thinking about? Yeah. 1151 00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,080 Yeah, quite a bit, yeah. Like I think, I mean, I think 1152 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:19,280 John's model is it's probably the a good jumping off point, 1153 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,200 right, That the, you know, like a John's model really comes from 1154 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,960 a part of you. And you know, like him and I 1155 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,400 have had these conversations a number of times that, you know, 1156 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,400 like we've had these conversations on this show as 1157 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:29,840 well. Is that the funding model 1158 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:34,920 doesn't incentivize people to go find things in an appropriate 1159 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,800 time frame or to actually find the right things either, right? 1160 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,440 Because juniors can't raise the the amount of money that they 1161 00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:44,600 would realistically need to go find something. 1162 00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,600 Alright. So, so, yeah, so if you could 1163 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,320 take that funding imperative out of their hands and you could 1164 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,840 fund them appropriately, then you could get to a point where 1165 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,040 they, they could hopefully be better at what they're finding. 1166 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,080 And you find this in, you know, like this is not a novel idea. 1167 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,800 Like you find this in the startup world about and, and, 1168 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,680 and most of the VCs or accelerator programmes that are 1169 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,360 really good at, at taking companies through, you know, 1170 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,480 they fund companies all the way to an appropriate point for them 1171 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,640 to develop their product. You know, they don't go, we're 1172 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,240 going to give you a million then, you know, come back to us 1173 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,760 in a year, we'll think about whether you're doing things 1174 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,920 right not and then we'll give you some more. 1175 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,280 You know, like often the best accelerator programmes are like, 1176 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,680 you know, we buy a story, we're not going to give you $5,000,000 1177 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,960 to go execute it. Now, if you crash the car along 1178 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,480 that way, that's OK, We take that risk on, but you know, 1179 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,880 we're kind of incentivizing you to get all the way to the end of 1180 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,480 your your kind of product line. Yeah. 1181 00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,600 And also taking the the appropriate amount of bets, 1182 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,760 right, If you, if you look at like, I don't know, Y Combinator 1183 00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,280 or something like that, Yeah, yeah, when you're taking two 1184 00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,000 batches of whatever it is 20 twice a year. 1185 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:52,800 I mean, I did the numbers. So Y Combinator is probably got 1186 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,680 to be somewhere around 4000 companies now that they're that 1187 00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:59,320 they're invested in, right. I mean, that's over a long time, 1188 00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:02,840 but still, yeah. And then out of that, I think 1189 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,640 there were at last time I counted there was somewhere 1190 00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,200 around the 3000 mark, 3200 mark or something like that when they 1191 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,000 had done 11 unicorns, a billion dollar companies out of that. 1192 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,320 Yeah, one strike, one Airbnb, a few drop boxes and those kinds 1193 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:17,600 of. Companies and it pays so. 1194 00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,240 But that but that, yeah, like, and you and you talk to people 1195 00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,760 in Y Combinator, you know, that was their strategy. 1196 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:24,640 They were going to take a lot of bets. 1197 00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,520 Like that was the whole model. And that means they were going 1198 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,640 to burn a lot of cash along the way as well. 1199 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,160 But along the lines, you know they they have made far more 1200 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,200 back by just taking a lot of bets. 1201 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:37,960 Yeah. We've sort of seen that in the 1202 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:42,760 mining world to some extent with BH PS Explore programme, which 1203 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:44,120 you've sort of spoken about before. 1204 00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,800 But I mean, could you also say that playing out more with 1205 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,240 majors or mid tiers during strategic investments or JVS or 1206 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,480 you know, something along those lines into juniors and sort of 1207 00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:00,280 having the exposure having or some sort of smaller level of 1208 01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,600 exposure and then sort of wanting to take that further. 1209 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,400 Once you know safe something's discovered or something gets to 1210 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,800 a more economic size and they can sort of step in and and take 1211 01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,760 it from there. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think 1212 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,600 there's people that have done that, you know, like a company 1213 01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,800 like South 32 at one point I think had so few people in this 1214 01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,320 exploration department that that's the model that they had 1215 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,040 to use. You know, they, they work with 1216 01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,680 other companies, you know, they funded them to do the work. 1217 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,320 And then if it got to a point where it looked interesting 1218 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,400 enough for them, then they would kind of take over. 1219 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,360 So, yeah, so people have done those as a as a general 1220 01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,320 statement. I'd say people haven't done it 1221 01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:43,320 at enough of a scale or for long enough to actually see that kind 1222 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:47,520 of fruit come through like Y Combinator has been running for. 1223 01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:49,440 Yeah, it's been like 12 years or something now. 1224 01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,760 All right, So they've done it for well over a decade 1225 01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,360 consistently. Yeah, even even longer, I think. 1226 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,320 Yeah, I think so. I mean, like it's at least a 1227 01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,440 decade old, right? Like it's got to be more. 1228 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,000 And you know, so like you said, you know, they take two cohorts 1229 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,960 every year, you know, without fail, they fund them, you know, 1230 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,240 they go down that path. And, and if you look at, you 1231 01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,120 know, like the early years, you know, they didn't have much 1232 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,840 success for, for a while, you know, because they have to get 1233 01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,880 their own ecosystem of how they're going to help founders 1234 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,920 to kind of go down that path. And, and so I think, you know, 1235 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,440 like one of the things that we haven't been very good at doing 1236 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,400 here is that I think people do it for a while, but then when 1237 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,520 they don't have early success, I think it's harder to maybe 1238 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,400 justify running them and and people end up bailing out of 1239 01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,560 them. So, so I think, yeah, like maybe 1240 01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,520 a bit of residency time in those would be good as well. 1241 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,840 Yeah, it's fascinating how many sort of things could be learned 1242 01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,280 from a process like that. Like it's very structured in 1243 01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,600 that they always took 7%. I forget what the exact number 1244 01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:49,200 was. Correct. 1245 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:49,520 Yeah. They. 1246 01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,320 Might have been like they pay you, I think it's like, I mean 1247 01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,120 these numbers might be changed now, but they pay you $125,000 1248 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,160 to get 7% upfront depending on what stage of company you're in. 1249 01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:59,520 And if you meet a certain hurdle, then they'll put in 1250 01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,720 another amount which is again for another 7%, you know. 1251 01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:04,800 So all of these things are kind of fixed along the way and. 1252 01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,880 Then they pass you on to the the set of growth and investors and 1253 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:09,800 they they make that sort of connection. 1254 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:11,240 That's right. Like quite simple. 1255 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,720 Yeah. I mean, the the idea of a group 1256 01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,720 of these sort of wealthy individuals as well as 1257 01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,520 endowments and everything to potentially come into the mining 1258 01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:21,880 industry and, and change the game. 1259 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,040 And you know, another feature of them being private companies is, 1260 01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:29,400 is another attribute where you see the, the markup in 1261 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,760 valuations is, you know, a much smoother line. 1262 01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,720 You know, it might be an artificial line, but it, it's 1263 01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,120 another potential learning that could get investors more 1264 01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,040 comfortable with, that's right, with mining. 1265 01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:41,640 So. I mean, this is like, I mean 1266 01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:43,800 like, you know, to back to like John's kind of aggregator model. 1267 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:45,880 This is something that you know, like I think him and I both 1268 01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,200 agree with is that I think some of the early capital will 1269 01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:49,840 probably be better to be private. 1270 01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,320 You know, like I think it's hard for junior companies to go and 1271 01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:59,880 do you know, such, such risky things and, and have to like you 1272 01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:03,040 provide market news and all, all of that type of stuff. 1273 01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,840 You know, like I think that ends up being maybe a distraction not 1274 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,160 just in their execution, but also financially ends up being a 1275 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,360 distraction in the amount of money they raise and things like 1276 01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:14,280 that as well. Probably not the best use of 1277 01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,360 their capital as well. Yeah. 1278 01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,720 I mean, I think, yeah, like, I mean, it's not the best use of 1279 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,000 the capital if they're not appropriately funded. 1280 01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,600 You know, like if they're raising, you know, $3,000,000 1281 01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,560 for say, three years, you know, like half of that money is 1282 01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,600 probably going to go into listing costs and all, all of 1283 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:32,200 the other things that they have to do, you know, like auditing 1284 01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,320 and all of that stuff. You know, like, is that the best 1285 01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:36,680 use of of kind of like money in that sense? 1286 01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,000 And yeah, like, and there's people that have looked at, you 1287 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,400 know, like how companies have spent money. 1288 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:47,520 And what you find is that, you know, in a in an environment 1289 01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:51,600 where capital is not that available, you know, like the 1290 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,720 the part of the company's costs that get cuts is the in ground 1291 01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:56,160 spend. You know the rest of the stuff 1292 01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,640 has to be a baseline cost that has to be maintained. 1293 01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:00,400 To keep them going. Yeah. 1294 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,960 So then, you know, so in times where capital, when when people 1295 01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,920 think capital is least efficient because and then they take it 1296 01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,400 away from the market, you actually incentivize the 1297 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,360 companies to become even more inefficient because now they're 1298 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,520 just spending that money to just survive for the next little 1299 01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:16,440 while. The the time as well, the amount 1300 01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,080 of time that a geologist running these companies might be 1301 01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,800 spending on the road trying to drum up more capital if that 1302 01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,240 could. And yeah, it's, you know, there 1303 01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:26,600 are similarities for private companies. 1304 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,080 They still need to raise money and stuff. 1305 01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:30,720 But that's why the amount of flow on benefits. 1306 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:32,360 And we do have a lot of the things that the US have. 1307 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:36,240 We have got wealthy people, a phenomenal superannuation system 1308 01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:37,840 here. We have the mining expertise. 1309 01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:40,480 It'd be. I mean, the one fundamental 1310 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,720 difference here is obviously is that the amount of like the 1311 01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:46,920 quantum of money that it takes to to get to a decision point as 1312 01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,960 a junior exploration company on the project is quite a lot more 1313 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,280 than what a lot of startups can do, right. 1314 01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,560 So, yeah, so that like I, I fundamentally understand that, 1315 01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,000 you know, they especially if you're like a technology company 1316 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,600 that has a SAS product like a software as a service product, 1317 01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,320 you know, like you're talking about a few $100,000 to get to a 1318 01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:06,160 point where you could have a product that you can take to 1319 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,280 market. And, and, and do that, you know, 1320 01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:12,320 like that's probably not realistic in, in exploration, 1321 01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,760 you know, you're talking about a few $1,000,000 to get to to at 1322 01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:19,600 least a minimum kind of output. And so, you know, so to back to 1323 01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,560 John's kind of model, that's, that's part of the reason that 1324 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,520 the aggregator model was that it's like, you know, if you 1325 01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,720 know, you're going to have to spend this much money to get to 1326 01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:31,440 a like a realistically conceivable proof of concept or, 1327 01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:34,720 or key decision point, like, you know, why wouldn't you try to 1328 01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:38,240 make that money as, as efficient as possible rather than wasting 1329 01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,320 half of it on listing fees and all this other stuff that goes 1330 01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:43,680 on. Beautiful Ahmad, I think we 1331 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:46,640 almost solved all of Manning's problems there. 1332 01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:48,880 But yeah, thanks again for for coming on. 1333 01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,520 It was great to chat about proper and I'm interested to see 1334 01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:53,840 what we chat about next time. Sounds good, thanks a lot for 1335 01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,280 having me again. Here's Aman. 1336 01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,200 Also a huge thank you to Axis mining technology, mineral 1337 01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,880 mining services, verify smack power and technology, DSI 1338 01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,720 underground, Silverstone, CRE insurance, Greenlands equipment, 1339 01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:10,720 K drill and use a spark chart. While you're at it, Odoru. 1340 01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:11,840 Money miners. Odoru. 1341 01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,360 Information contained in this episode of Money of Mine is of 1342 01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:17,440 general nature only and does not take into account the 1343 01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,040 objectives, financial situation or needs of any particular 1344 01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,080 person. Before making any investment 1345 01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,120 decision, you should consult with your financial advisor and 1346 01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:29,280 consider how appropriate the advice is to your objectives, 1347 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:31,480 financial situation and needs.