1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,800 Righto money. Mine is another in Darva special 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,040 from the lats. Now you JD, you're telling me 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,840 this fellow is he's bought coal assets in South Africa? 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,160 I'm thinking coal. I'm thinking South Africa. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,080 That just reminds me of CRE insurance coal experts and 6 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:20,120 African experts in the one building. 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:21,400 It's the logical connection, isn't it? 8 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,320 Adam Batista is the coal expert. Tari is the African expert and 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,360 when they're thinking they're not an expert, Dave Harrison 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,640 walks around and says you're a fucking expert. 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,720 That's the that is the office morale. 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:34,600 So. That's the thing. 13 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,640 They're experts in every geography, in every commodity, 14 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,960 aren't they? And construction and 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,440 construction. Did I just hear a website 16 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,760 slogan? Good work JD, thanks, looking 17 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,400 forward to seeing him. The savvy now. 18 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,920 JD who have we got for this Indaba episode? 19 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,440 So this is our lucky last interview from Indaba Maddie. 20 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,920 We are sharing a chat that we did with a guy called Wusslat 21 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,520 Bao Glue. He, he runs a private business. 22 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,519 So you probably have never heard of them called Mina in South 23 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:05,640 Africa. And there's, there's a couple 24 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,600 reasons why we wanted to, to chat to him. 25 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:09,880 Obviously we were in South Africa. 26 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,040 We'd been in the country for over a week at that point and we 27 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,040 were very curious in how mining is done. 28 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,360 You know, there's a huge mining history in the country across 29 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,280 lots of commodities. So, you know, you hear lots 30 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,600 about S com, the power utilities about, you know, permits, 31 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,240 rights, all these kind of things, ownership and how it's 32 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,880 sort of structured and the sort of challenges the industry has 33 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,560 faced over the past few decades. So we thought why not speak with 34 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,360 someone who actually operates there, who runs mining 35 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,600 companies, who has bought significant assets from the 36 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,880 likes of Rio Tinto, coal assets you mentioned in the intro 37 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,480 there, Maddie. So that plus a whole host of 38 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,120 other reasons running a private business versus running a public 39 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,440 company. We thought for all these kind of 40 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,920 reasons why not just get someone that's done it and is continuing 41 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,320 to to do it in that, in that geography, in that part of the 42 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,320 world and how it sort of differentiates from operating in 43 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,480 Australia. And yeah, this is the the result 44 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,479 of that and came to share it with the money miners. 45 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,280 JD, you can't make the intros too good 'cause now I want to go 46 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:12,840 past this. That was sensational. 47 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,720 Not too sure about that, but yeah, let's let's share the chat 48 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,120 with this let and hopefully the money miners pick up a a thing 49 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,160 or two about operating in a different part of the world like 50 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,000 Trev and I did from the the conversation. 51 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,720 Right, let's repeat. JD, we're at in Darba and we're, 52 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,480 we're sitting down with Wuslat, who runs a, a mining investment 53 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,520 and, and mining company that I think our audience would 54 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,800 probably be unfamiliar with. But that's not, that's not 55 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,880 because you don't have a, you know, a decent sized footprint. 56 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,840 It's just that you're private and you focus in South Africa 57 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,280 and you also focus on commodities that people, people 58 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,560 are shy to talk about too in other ways. 59 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,240 But thank you so much for, for sitting down. 60 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,240 We're keen to talk about Minar. We're keen to talk about, you 61 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,280 know, how you're seeing the investment landscape in South 62 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,840 Africa and especially from, from your specific Yeah point in the 63 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,560 world. Yeah, thank you, Travis. 64 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,720 Look, South Africa is action a great jurisdiction for mining. 65 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,600 If you look at what we are rich in South Africa, especially 66 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:23,320 PGMS, Chrome, manganese, coal, anthracite, iron ore, obviously 67 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,880 it's not as sizable as as Australia in terms of iron ore, 68 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,320 but we got a, we got some big assets, especially Kumba is, is 69 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,760 massive like they do. Again, it's relevant in terms of 70 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,000 Chrome, in terms of iron ore. But when it comes to manganese 71 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,920 and Chrome, we are the largest, We got the largest ores deposits 72 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,040 in the, in the world and we are the largest producers in the 73 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,960 world. We are competing with Australia 74 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,360 in terms of in terms of manganese. 75 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,880 But I believe Australian mines are, are coming to an end at 76 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,680 some point. And Sarav Castle has got massive 77 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,720 manganese deposits. We've got Site 32 invested in 78 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,960 South Africa heavily in terms of manganese. 79 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,040 And we also have Asmang. It's a big company. 80 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,200 They, they, they've got large operations, but it's a very 81 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,720 vibrant industry in terms of producing manganese. 82 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,840 PGM is obviously we are the again, largest producer in the 83 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,800 world. So all these, if you look at the 84 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,280 companies that are playing the investment business in South 85 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:26,400 Africa, they, they invest in South Africa, that shows that 86 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:31,680 this country is actually something good, which is 87 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,480 attracting people. And the one of the most 88 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,760 important that we have here, we got rule of law. 89 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,800 So we got democracy, we got rule of law, we got freedom of 90 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,360 speech. So we got security of tenure. 91 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:48,040 So people come and invest and, and because investors don't like 92 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,240 noise and we don't have noise inside Africa, people are 93 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,520 focusing on the investments. You know, the people are 94 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,680 focusing on like optimization and their priorities. 95 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,760 Yes, we got certain rules like like economic employment, which 96 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,880 is good to address the past like imbalance. 97 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,440 And as long as you comply, government is very friendly, 98 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,520 minister is very friendly and minister of minor resources. 99 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:16,600 And I think it's a, it's a really good jurisdiction and 100 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,560 it's something, it's very important jurisdiction for the 101 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,120 mining companies because like I said, certain commodities, 102 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,880 certain minerals, we're really, we're really big and we're 103 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,720 really, we've got really large deposits. 104 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,280 For a second, we just double click on that point you just 105 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:34,360 mentioned with the the black empowerment groups. 106 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,800 I think it's really important for the Aussie listeners to 107 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,400 understand and a sort of 32nd recap. 108 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,480 You see these companies, you know, listed here that might be 109 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,760 at an asset level, at a company level, but there'll be a 26% 110 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,480 interest. Can you just quickly highlight 111 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,840 that? And then I think the the follow 112 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:55,080 on will be the other look. We looked at also different 113 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,840 jurisdictions to, to sort of like to, to invest in 114 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:01,240 opportunities in different jurisdictions and Latin America 115 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,520 have got similar, similar rules in you can find the same thing 116 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:07,960 in in Middle East. Like if you invest, you want to 117 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,960 invest in Saudi Arabia, you find certain rules like that you need 118 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,440 to get a partner, a Saudi local partner in, in South Africa. 119 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,280 This has been ongoing for for a long time like they to be able 120 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:25,840 to get a license in mining, mining, right, especially you 121 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:34,160 need to get a 26% B partner, which is owned by a company 122 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,360 which is owned and controlled by historically disadvantaged S 123 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,600 Africans. So I look at from from this 124 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,760 perspective, like for instance, if you look at my business, I 125 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,120 mean, I managed to be successful because of the B rules, B laws, 126 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,160 because I grew my business with my partners, with my, with my 127 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,000 local South African partners. So some people can or might see 128 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,080 it is a burden, but I actually see it as an opportunity. 129 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,600 For listed companies, obviously it's a different story, but for 130 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,480 listed companies, there are a lot of actually ease that 131 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,320 government creates. For instance, if you want to 132 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,120 sell your company, you don't need to get the company's 133 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,440 shares, You don't need to get menaces approved. 134 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:20,120 So it's not like something that's an obstacle to do 135 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,520 business in South Africa. Yes, 26% shareholding will be 136 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,000 given to a local business, but that local business or local 137 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,400 entrepreneurs, they add value to your business. 138 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,280 They help you to grow your business. 139 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,520 They help you to, to get like to get certain things for the 140 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,120 Transnet, our, our railway lines, our ports, you know, 141 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,320 wherever state is involved, they go and unlock the opportunity. 142 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,800 So it's not all doom and gloom. It depends on from where you're 143 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,240 looking at. Like your angle, I am looking at 144 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,680 it as a positive thing, but some people might be looking at it as 145 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,840 a different. But I mean, the reality is 146 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,440 companies with the right local partners, they actually prosper 147 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,800 and they, they, they have a good growth trajectory. 148 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,600 So from my perspective, it's a positive thing. 149 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,760 It's not a negative thing. What's the thinking supporting, 150 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,720 you know, Menard's strategy where you you're ultimately 151 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,000 looking to take controlling shareholdings in, in, in, in 152 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,800 these mining companies? And it's, it's a largely 153 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,520 operatorship model, but not quite as well. 154 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,240 There's, there's this sort of like, yeah, this, this 155 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,120 interesting kind of philosophy of investment which we don't see 156 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,919 heaps of in, in the private mining investment landscape. 157 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,760 So we, we, we got two, we are doing two things. 158 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:46,160 One is we apply for prospecting, right and and we go and drill 159 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,400 and if you find a deposit, then we developed the the mine. 160 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,560 That's what we did in coal successfully four or five times. 161 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,080 And some of them we are rehabilitating already that we 162 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,040 depleted. And then the other one is like 163 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:07,120 we buy assets that are unwanted by the majors or by other mining 164 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,040 companies. Like an example is we bought a 165 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,000 mine from Rio Tinto, it's called Zuland Enter site colouring and 166 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,200 we successfully mined it for 9 years. 167 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:18,880 It's an underground enter site mine. 168 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:24,680 It's important for for the local industry and for the also job 169 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:28,200 creation. We bought a mine from a Spanish 170 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:32,680 company called Kangra Operational and they it has been 171 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:36,320 in operation since 1957. We successfully carried on 172 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,200 operating and we started new edit shafts to to go underground 173 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,680 to increase the life of mine. I think where we add the value 174 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:51,520 is more about like being agile and then like reducing the 175 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:58,120 overheads, making it efficient and optimizing it quickly. 176 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,840 So that like we, we really save the cost and we make the mine as 177 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,920 the low cost operator, low cost mine. 178 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,160 Because when the commodity prices go down, whatever 179 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:10,520 commodity is that it doesn't matter. 180 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,160 Let's say it's, if it's coal and the coal price goes down, then 181 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,320 we don't close the mine. We just carry on as long as the 182 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,280 mine doesn't lose money. And if we can, let's say we 183 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,120 break even, then we carry on. And you can only do that if 184 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,920 you're the lowest cost producer. If you're the lowest cost, 185 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,080 you're going to be shutting down last. 186 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,680 So with the majors, this is more difficult because I mean running 187 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:37,560 a major mining company like VHP Billiton or Rio Tinto, I mean 188 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,960 it, it is not that easy. It's like almost like running a 189 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,600 country. I mean, if you, if you look at 190 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,320 their revenue, if you look at their, their responsibilities 191 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:48,240 operating in different jurisdictions. 192 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,560 So these are like things that you can't actually undermine. 193 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,760 But as a smaller mining company, let's say mid tier mining 194 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,560 company, we are easily being agile and we're easily making 195 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:05,000 decisions. And we actually finished the red 196 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,280 date 78 million drill made so that like we, we make decisions. 197 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,280 Did I just hear a random in the background? 198 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,360 JD say 17,000,000 drill meters I think. 199 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:13,840 It's a bit of an echo. I think I heard that. 200 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,480 Who was? Who was you were there? 201 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,280 Who was someone who was talking Swick at in Darba? 202 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,480 People from high above mate. Well well it has to be probably 203 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,600 someone from Swick cause Swick are the only people that know 204 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,440 what 17,000,000 drill meters looks. 205 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,240 Like on the way to 18? Well Can you imagine how quick 206 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,720 they're going to get there with deep X punch in 2000m plus 207 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,480 holes? Could have passed it already. 208 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,560 Oh mate, Parenti knows what's going on 'cause Swick are part 209 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:39,160 of Parenti now. So it's true. 210 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,840 You want the historical skills of Swick passed down to you? 211 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,920 Go become a Swick driller. You want to say the Swick 212 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,040 drilling skills on showcase? Get Swick to drill your diamond 213 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,720 holes underground. You go to underground driller 214 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:55,840 back to. It. 215 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,760 The opportunity to buy the assets from the majors only 216 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,960 comes about because of, you know, their strategy on mass to 217 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,480 like divest their South African assets by and large. 218 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:12,480 Like is that is that a is some of the the philosophy behind the 219 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,640 investment kind of capitalizing on having, you know, the local 220 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,520 wheel and capability to actually operate in South Africa on, on 221 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,040 mines that you actually think are lower cost? 222 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,560 Look, it depends. Like in the case of Rio Tinto, 223 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:28,920 for instance, Rio sold that mine because it was too small for 224 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,280 them, OK, it was nothing and they had a fatality in that year 225 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,720 and the CEO said what is this? And then they said, look, this 226 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,080 is Andrew that mine, why do we have it? 227 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,800 And they said because it came through the transaction that 228 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,680 they made in Mozambique and he wanted that to be divested. 229 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,880 So that was a. Bad memories there. 230 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,920 Exactly. Lots of money to be lost in that 231 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,880 asset. But but I agree with you. 232 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,720 Like for instance, in the case of BHP, they made a decision not 233 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:08,560 to do much in, in Africa, right. Maybe they got the luxury to to 234 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:12,040 do that because they've got really great assets in the Tier 235 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,920 1 assets in the right and good jurisdictions, like let's say 236 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,800 first of all jurisdictions, but Rio Tinto carries on running 237 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,320 richest Bayman rules, which is a great asset. 238 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,280 Which I think they've tried to sell, though they did run a sale 239 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,200 process at some point. No, not, I don't know that maybe 240 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,640 maybe they, they might have done it in the past, but they're, 241 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:33,720 they're successful. Look, it's challenging. 242 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,600 It's not easy. It's, it's again in a, in a 243 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,080 difficult area because there are a lot of community challenges. 244 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,480 But at the end of the day, Rio keeps that asset and they, they 245 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:46,960 carry on running it successfully. 246 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,720 They make money out of it. That's why they're running it. 247 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,320 They've got like local partners and they're happy to actually 248 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,200 recently invested in opening new areas to mine that's called 249 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:04,640 Zulti S to mine heavy descent mineral sands and then they 250 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,600 will, they will smelt it in their operation. 251 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,640 So I think different companies have got different reasons, 252 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,640 different jurisdictions to operate in different 253 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,920 jurisdictions. And also it's a it's linked to 254 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,480 the leadership of the company as well, because some leaders are 255 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,080 have a different view about certain jurisdictions. 256 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,320 Sometimes board doesn't doesn't stop them to, to, to go ahead. 257 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,800 Sometimes board stop them. But at the end of the day, I 258 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,240 mean, Anglo Americans still a big investor in South Africa. 259 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,080 I think Anglo is the flagship company of South Africa in 260 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,720 mining. Blanco is active in South 261 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,560 Africa, big ferrochrome assets, Chrome assets, coal. 262 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,240 They're very big in coal. They have a manganese mine. 263 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,440 So we got a lot of big platinum players like Impala Platinum 264 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,880 know them all these guys like yeah, I don't think we are short 265 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,040 of investment in South Africa, but but certain companies 266 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,360 decided not to, not to do much in South Africa, yeah. 267 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,400 You, you mentioned Richard, Richard's Bay and I think one of 268 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,880 the, the hats you wear is on on the board of the, the, the coal 269 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,240 export terminal is that. One of the directors of BCT. 270 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,840 One, one of the, you can't talk about investing in mining in 271 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,120 South Africa without talking about the, the infrastructure 272 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,960 constraints. And you know, it's something I 273 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,000 think you, you probably have a lot of opinions on when it comes 274 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:31,520 to just the interplay of power rail kind of kind of port, 275 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,720 where, where, where is investment at? 276 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,240 And what are the, you know, what are the, what are the real 277 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,680 constraints in actually wanting to like grow the, the, the 278 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,040 outcomes of the mining industry here? 279 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,720 Look, we, we had some challenges in terms of power. 280 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,880 The previous administration, they decided not to focus on 281 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,480 burning coal, but they rather heavily invested in renewable 282 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,920 energy. And we saw that like it. 283 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,480 Our base load needs to come from somewhere but not from renewable 284 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,200 energy because renewable energy will never produce space, but 285 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,160 the current technology that human beings or humanity has. 286 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:12,000 So this administration has been running ESCOM successfully 287 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,680 without having any load shedding. 288 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,800 Lately. We had some issues about 2-3 289 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,640 days ago, we started having some load shedding. 290 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,480 But I think, I think they carry on like maintaining the power 291 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,520 stations. So ESCOM is, is at least like in 292 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,840 the right direction. The challenge with ESCOM is like 293 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,520 they need to know next what they're going to do next. 294 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,400 Because when the coal fleet is retired, are they going to burn 295 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:38,600 gas? Where is the gas going to come 296 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:39,800 from? Are are we going to build 297 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,120 nuclear capacity? Who's going to invest in nuclear 298 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,040 capacity is going to be state or is it going to be private public 299 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,880 participation? So or are they going to build 300 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,960 new coal-fired power stations? Is that going to be done with 301 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,440 the again partnership with private companies or are they 302 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,320 are they going to build it? Can they get finance for 303 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,160 building a coal-fired fire station? 304 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,240 So they are discussing these these things and actually 305 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,760 current administration are really competent and they know 306 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,839 what they're doing. They have generation background 307 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,640 and I think we're on the right track in terms of escort 308 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,640 Transnet is we look, we have the infrastructure, we've got 309 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:23,319 railway lines as large as Germany as as long as Germany 310 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:28,600 has to track. Yes, some of the track needs 311 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,360 maintenance, we need that. But at least like you don't need 312 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:34,600 to go and invest in rail track, you need to invest in rolling 313 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,120 stock. So currently their challenge is 314 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,000 they don't have enough rolling stock capacity. 315 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,440 They've got some signalling issues on the lines and they 316 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,240 have got massive challenge with the cable theft. 317 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,360 But the cable theft was always there like it's a, it's a social 318 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,800 issue. So what they are doing 319 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,120 currently, which is the right thing with the guidance from 320 00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:01,560 presidency, they are allowing third parties to be able to buy 321 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,200 their own rolling stock and then create their own capacity. 322 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,800 So there's actually a deadline on 7th of February. 323 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,920 We, we will as a company submit as well to create our own 324 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,880 capacity to move coal, to move enter side to different ports 325 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:18,240 and to also move manganese wooden South Africa to our new 326 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,480 acquisition that we bought from Semenko, that's our 32 Anglo JV, 327 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,920 the Ferra manganese asset. So that third party excess is 328 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,560 critical for South Africa. If they can run that process 329 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,520 successfully, I think that's going to unlock a lot of 330 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:38,560 potential on the rail side. So on the ports, private ports 331 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:45,120 like RVCT works perfect I think. And I believe RVCT is one of the 332 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:49,000 best call terminals in the world. 91,000,000 tonne per 333 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,200 annum capacity, practically 81,000,000 tonne they can do 334 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,600 easily. But the rail capacity is is 5055 335 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,760 million which is which is a disappointing thing. 336 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,080 But then the trans that run ports which is there's a company 337 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,400 called Transit Port Terminals, they have got some challenges 338 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,880 and they started the process like for the container terminal 339 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,520 lost two years ago for instance. So I think transit 340 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,400 administration understands what the challenges are and they are 341 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,400 planning to put certain ports into the market to reach to have 342 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,000 a private public partnership. I think they will still keep the 343 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,120 control of the ports, but they will allow the third parties to 344 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:35,400 invest and then to run the port on a on a long term contract. 345 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:41,840 So I think at least we have challenges, but at least there 346 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,480 are solutions to that and Transnet and Escom and 347 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,400 Presidency understand the challenges that they're trying 348 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,880 to address them. Firstly, you spoke to the point 349 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,240 earlier of the, the rich mineral endowment in the country. 350 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,440 And when you, you look across the spectrum and Trav and I were 351 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,280 lucky enough to to get a view of that there. 352 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:07,320 But PGMS and a few of the other medals in a bit of a tough spot. 353 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,400 And then you've also got this relatively commodity agnostic 354 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,120 approach to what you look at what you invest what, what are 355 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,960 the commodities that are sort of standing out where you think 356 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,280 there's opportunities in. And you're, I mean to add to 357 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,000 that, you have the the point of a lot of other participants not 358 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,680 being interested in South Africa, which makes it better 359 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:30,120 for a buyer too. Look, maybe let's let me do an 360 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:33,000 analysis about like what's happening because things change 361 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,600 very fast. Like, I mean, if you look at the 362 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,360 sentiment now in the world and if you look at the sentiment how 363 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,800 it was about a year ago, it's completely different. 364 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,600 But let's start with PGMS. So PG Ms. obviously very 365 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,240 critical in catalytic converters for combustion engines. 366 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,360 And for some reason, which I don't understand, and I mean, 367 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:58,720 when I say this, they think that I'm criticizing them, but I am 368 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,920 saying that and I, I couldn't get an answer. 369 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,800 So Angler, for instance, they went out and they said, no, I 370 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,120 mean, green energy, this green energy that it's not when you 371 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,040 say that like they, they offloaded, they call assets and 372 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,720 then they, they said that they will focus on copper and they 373 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,560 will focus on other, other assets, other outside copper. 374 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,880 They have PGMS, which is very big for them, right? 375 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,400 And they've got diamonds. So when you say that like green 376 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,680 energy, then you're saying that, OK, you're against combustion 377 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,480 engines when you say that where is your PGMPGMS going to be 378 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,480 consumed? I mean, I'm sure they had so 379 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,680 many discussions about that and they decided, OK, we should go 380 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,960 with this copper and green energy thing. 381 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,960 And I guess one, that's one of the biggest reason BHP showed 382 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,800 interest in angle to buy because they're interested in a copper 383 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,320 assets. But on the other hand, I think 384 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,120 this all these green energy initiatives created a problem 385 00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:04,240 for PGM producers, OK, they tried to make a vehicle that 386 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,800 could burn hydrogen. I think they're still working on 387 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,200 it. But at the end of the day, that 388 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,280 affected the whole demand. And, and the reality is like 389 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,320 electric vehicle revolution is going to affect that demand. 390 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,440 But there's also another reality. 391 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,320 If you look at what happened with all these auto 392 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,120 manufacturers in the world, like they are delaying their 393 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,800 programs. Mercedes, for instance, I know 394 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,040 very closely they said they're not going to go to electric 395 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,600 vehicles completely in a certain time. 396 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,960 They're extending that deadline because there's not enough 397 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,480 minerals to go there in the world. 398 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,160 So and there are other challenges like you need to have 399 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,400 an infrastructure on how do you charge the cars? 400 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,440 Like for instance, if you use a electric vehicle in South 401 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,400 Africa, where would you where would you charge your car at 402 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,680 home? Maybe with coal-fired power 403 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,160 coming from a coal-fired power station of Escom. 404 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:04,360 So I mean, so when the auto manufacturers delay their their 405 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,520 plans, that would mean actually more product for PGM mines to be 406 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,800 sold, but PGM prices are depressed. 407 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,520 So now if you think about it like if somebody brings me a PGM 408 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,960 project, would I look at it maybe if it's underground? 409 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,680 No, I can tell you now underground PGM project is going 410 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,760 to be very expensive to develop and it's going to be expensive 411 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,440 to operate as well. So I wouldn't look at the PGM 412 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:33,040 project because first of all, South Africa doesn't have many 413 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:39,760 open class PGM mines, Anglo as Mohala Kwane, but maybe 414 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:45,280 Zimbabwe, which comes with with other challenges because I mean, 415 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:50,880 it's not an easy country to operate, but PGMS is difficult 416 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:58,520 to invest at the moment. OK, Chrome ferrochrome is used 417 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,200 in stainless steel. OK. 418 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,960 So you can't make stainless steel without ferrochrome. 419 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,200 But if you look at the steel industry in the world, like 420 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:12,640 China last year produced over a billion tonne of steel and it is 421 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,160 actually 60% of the world's steel produced by 1 country. 422 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,680 So they need all the manganese and all the ferrochrome or all 423 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,440 the Chrome that's made in South Africa so that they make 424 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,680 ferromanganese and ferrochrome and use it in steel 425 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,920 manufacturing. So now when you look at 426 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,760 manganese and Chrome, then you need to look at what is 427 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,160 happening in China. And steel doesn't look good at 428 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,400 the moment because there's not enough consumption in China. 429 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,840 They actually flooded the Indian market and Indians are famous 430 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,240 with being a low cost reducer. So now Indian companies are 431 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,280 asking the government to put tariffs on Chinese product 432 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,560 because they can't compete with China's at discounted steel. 433 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,680 So China is considering cutting their steel production. 434 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,760 I heard and read about 20% and 20% will mean the second biggest 435 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:06,640 producers whole production like 200 million tons and that's 436 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,640 India. OK so now if you look at the 437 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,320 picture then it doesn't look good for manganese and Chrome 438 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,960 because it depends heavily on China and Chrome is actually 439 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,600 even worse because it depends on heavily on stainless steel and 440 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,120 stainless steel production is not as big as steel production. 441 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:36,560 So but then let's open apprentices and say if there's 442 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,920 any disruption, look at what happened with Jemco right when 443 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,000 they had a problem with the logistics, then manganese prices 444 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,280 shut up. Very briefly, it was amazing. 445 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,920 It was like a a three-week price spike and then all of a sudden 446 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,080 prices come back down. Exactly. 447 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,800 So now actually prices are a little up now, but they're 448 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,400 waiting for the market is waiting for China and Saturday 449 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,800 to understand like what's going to happen with the with the 450 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,280 manganese. Manganese and Chrome are heavily 451 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,280 linked to steel. Then if you if you look at coal, 452 00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:14,240 coal is like it's linked to everything. 453 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,440 Obviously. I mean, it peaked, the coal 454 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,960 consumption peaked last year and I mean. 455 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,160 Doesn't doesn't it peak every year? 456 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,800 Just keeps it's. Picking up yeah, agreed, agreed. 457 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,440 And I mean, look, it's, it's a lot of it's a, it's a very big 458 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,960 industry for Australia because Australia is close to China and, 459 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,200 and Japan. These are like massive consumers 460 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,360 of coal and especially Japan, good quality coal and not only 461 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:44,960 steam coal, but also cooking coal. 462 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,920 So it's a massive industry for Australia and it's a massive 463 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,960 industry for South Africa because I mean, coal mining 464 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,840 industry is the second biggest employer in the in the mining 465 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,120 industry. So PG Ms. employ about 185,000 466 00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:03,840 people and coal is employing about 9595 thousand people. 467 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,000 So it's it's a massive industry for South Africa. 468 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,920 But if you look at the global things like what's happening in 469 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,320 Europe, what's happening in, in in the east. 470 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,080 So China carries on building coal-fired power stations. 471 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,720 India carries on being coal-fired power, building 472 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,720 coal-fired power sessions. And Europe says no to call. 473 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:27,560 I mean, I was I, I learned from my German colleagues in October, 474 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,200 I was in Vienna at a conference, but they closed German 475 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,720 government closed a coal-fired power session, which is 1 year 476 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,640 old in Hamburg, OK with the latest clean called 477 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,280 technologies. And they say it's all political 478 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,600 reasons. So now and if the government is 479 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,920 doing that, I don't understand the logic now. 480 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,400 I gave this example in, in, in one of the conferences. 481 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,600 So we got the same sky, right? So if you emit in England or if 482 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,560 you emit in China, it goes to the same sky. 483 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,640 So then what is the purpose of like deferring the the emission 484 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,640 or taking the emission from UK and then everything in China, 485 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,440 it's the same. It doesn't matter. 486 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,960 So I don't understand the logic of this, like shutting down 487 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,800 coal-fired power sessions and then pushing the manufacturing 488 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,360 and pushing the production to China, and then you end up like 489 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,040 buying everything from China. So coal to me looks very 490 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,320 interesting. OK. 491 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,000 And if there's any disruption, we saw what happened between 492 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,000 Ukraine and Russia and it went to $400.00 a tonne, which is 493 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,360 like unimaginable, but it happened. 494 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,320 So the energy commodities cannot absorb any disruption. 495 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,120 It's like because it's our lives, like without power, we 496 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,040 can't work, we can't operate. There's no Internet, there's no, 497 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,800 there's no water, there's no electricity. 498 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,480 So I think coal has got a good future. 499 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,320 This is my personal view, cooking coal linked to steel, 500 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,040 but we don't have a lot, a lot of cooking coal in South Africa. 501 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,600 We, we got no production. Actually, it's some coming from 502 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,120 critiquic that goes to Arcelor Mittal, that's all. 503 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,920 And our north-south Africa is not a big player. 504 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,760 Obviously Australia is the biggest player and Brazil is the 505 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,160 second biggest. So we are price takers in South 506 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,280 Africa, but and our our resources are also depleting. 507 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,600 So we got maybe another 10 years of life at Cumba, but not not 508 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,600 beyond that unless they do new exploration. 509 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,160 So currently all the commodities look challenging. 510 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,920 But again, I mean, you know, every commodity has its cycle. 511 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,080 So if you if you get an asset and then if you catch one or two 512 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,960 cycles, then you really make good money. 513 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,760 So I think it's going to be difficult to actually say that 514 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,600 like, OK, this is the right commodity to to invest. 515 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:53,560 But I guess if you buy an asset at the right price and catch the 516 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,280 right cycle, then you can make a serious amount of money. 517 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,200 That, that's a fascinating point. 518 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,480 Just going deeper on, on coal transactions, we saw a number 519 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,360 over the last three or four years on our sort of side of the 520 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,520 world in, in Australia, the, the multiples that they traded on 521 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,120 got sort of better and better over time. 522 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,560 What, what sort of view did you have of those transactions? 523 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,960 I'm not sure how much attention you paid to them, but again, it 524 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,760 was the, the majors, what you spoke to earlier offloading, but 525 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,760 that price was getting higher. Do you reckon it sort of reached 526 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,960 a a sort of ceiling on the multiples that they'll trade at? 527 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,800 Look, I think majors were some of them were were happy like 528 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,760 they, they, they sold their assets at a really good price. 529 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:39,560 I think one of them is Saturday too. 530 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,400 They sold one of their assets at a very at a very good price. 531 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,200 They sold Illawarra. Illawarra sold their portfolio 532 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,920 PHP. I think it's a success story for 533 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,760 for Saturday too. Look, you know, the the 534 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,720 interesting part is like, I think this is part of the human 535 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,920 beings. There is a cult mentality about 536 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,680 coal at the moment. OK, yeah. 537 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,680 It's like no matter what, we must get out no matter what. 538 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,760 But they don't. I mean, and it's interesting 539 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:15,120 like you, you, you find this in a boardroom with with highly 540 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,240 educated people. They're not, it's not applying 541 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,680 their minds. They just let go with the 542 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,880 sentiment. And I don't know who creates the 543 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,000 sentiment. Maybe the banks, maybe the, the, 544 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,880 the, the companies like BlackRock and them, I don't 545 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,360 know. But I mean, I see that BlackRock 546 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,520 has changed now. Maybe there's a new chief in 547 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,520 town because of that. They, they have to change. 548 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,480 But at the end of the day, the, the banks, insurance companies, 549 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,960 they all have this kind of sentiment and that pushes mining 550 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,200 companies, executives think, start thinking about, about in a 551 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,920 cult way. But the reality is like, I think 552 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,560 there are certain companies that offloaded their assets and they 553 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,280 made good money. And some companies are not 554 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,280 really, they don't care about like making money or not making 555 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,200 money because they just want to get out of that business. 556 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,440 But in reality, I, I think, I mean a jurisdiction like 557 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,600 Australia, think about it, it's the geology is there, 558 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,680 infrastructure is there. I mean, you guys have got a 559 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,200 company called Horizon Railway Line company. 560 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,600 I think new new QLD. Sorry. 561 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,000 Which? Which which? 562 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,600 Which province is that from like? 563 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,400 They've got most of their infrastructure in Yeah in 564 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,600 Queensland, but. What was it? 565 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,200 Queensland's company. They've got rail all through 566 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:29,840 the. Well, apparently they they 567 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,880 privatize the company. I I read their story. 568 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,080 It's a private company listed on the Australian stuff. 569 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,560 Moving like 250, three, 100 million tons of or a year or a 570 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,920 product a year, it's amazing like and the ports, yes, you've 571 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,600 got challenges with the ports. We always say see the queues and 572 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,280 the ports, but at the end of the day, I mean Australia is 573 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,000 actually moving out hundreds of millions of tons of iron ore and 574 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,640 coal and all the other commodities that you guys are 575 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,640 mining. So in a jurisdiction like 576 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,680 Australia, I think there will always be a customer for a coal 577 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,840 asset, there'll always be a customer for a coal asset, as 578 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,280 long as the quality is right. It can be steam coal, it can be 579 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,360 cooking coal. And I think there's there's 580 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,400 money to be made in coal. How do you think about the the 581 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,400 substitution of a in South Africa and then across the 582 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,320 world, you know, with natural gas in, in some parts being 583 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,400 very, very competitively priced, is that put a put a ceiling on 584 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,920 on? Yeah, look, we're the global 585 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,000 land. Handling LNG or natural gas is 586 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,320 like not that easy because like if you're producing and if 587 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,000 you've got your own pipeline that's yes, fine, fine, you can, 588 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,240 you can do that, you can distribute it. 589 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,800 But South Africa, South Africa system is not designed according 590 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,520 to that because we don't have gas here, even though some 591 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,160 people are saying that they found gas, But I mean, finding 592 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,600 gas and making it commercial viable is a different thing. 593 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,480 What people don't understand is the following. 594 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,160 They should go and read like look at United States journey. 595 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,800 They started in 1974 and it took 30 years for them to 596 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,639 commercialize it. They're, they're, they're 597 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:15,080 mining, they're extracting the gas from the, from the rock, but 598 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,120 it, it took a long time to, to drill horizontally and then get 599 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,800 the, the, the, the trapped gas in the, in the rocks. 600 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,199 So if you have an asset in South Africa, that doesn't mean that 601 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,159 you're going to start like generating gas tomorrow. 602 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,560 And then you can, you can burn gas in, in, in 12 months time. 603 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,080 It's, it doesn't work like that. People need to understand that 604 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:45,040 that different dynamics of making gas fields work. 605 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,960 And sometimes it doesn't work. So if you don't have the gas 606 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,679 resource, then you rely on getting LNG like Germany. 607 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,280 So Germany was relying on on Russian gas. 608 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,280 And when there is a conflict and they're in trouble, like then 609 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,840 they created the LNG receiving facilities. 610 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,360 Now they're in trouble again. Now Trump is actually telling 611 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,720 them, listen, if you don't buy American gas, I'm going to, I'm 612 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,880 going to put tariffs on you. So they are between Russia and 613 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,880 US because they decided not to build nuclear and they decided 614 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,360 to stop their coal-fired power sections. 615 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,680 Under normal circumstances, they should have not done. 616 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,520 They shouldn't. They should have not closed the 617 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,520 coal-fired power sections and they should build nuclear power 618 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,320 sections. So they were worried about the 619 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,240 safety. But France is full of nuclear 620 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:33,800 power sections. If anything goes wrong, God 621 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,040 forbid in France with any nuclear fired power sections, 622 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,360 it's going to affect the whole Europe, right? 623 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,240 Everywhere UK up to Greece, everybody's going to be 624 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:46,800 affected. So again, I don't understand the 625 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,120 logic. But in a country where you got 626 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,360 gas, if you got the pipeline, I think it's no brainer. 627 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,800 Or if you build gas fired power stations around the coast, you 628 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,640 bring gas in the form of LNG. But then you are dollarizing 629 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,240 your your power price because you are relying on gas in in 630 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:08,520 dollars. And then you are actually also 631 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,000 relying on another country. If anything goes wrong, then 632 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,920 you're in trouble. Yeah. 633 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,800 Will we see nuclear in South Africa? 634 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,280 Maybe it it, it, it's not a bad idea actually, because it's a 635 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,280 good source. We, we got one here in Cape Town 636 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,640 in it's called Danafontaine. It's in Danafontaine. 637 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,520 It's called Coburg and it has been run by a French company 638 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,800 successfully for years, and it powers the city, powers the the 639 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,840 area, which is critical. The the one interesting thing 640 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,000 about like South Africa's history with it's kind of, you 641 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,840 know, down downstream production, so that ferrochrome 642 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,680 smelters have kind of idled in a lot of cases. 643 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,880 There's not much ferrochrome smelting anymore, except I think 644 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,640 there might be two left. Then Glencore. 645 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,280 Glencore has got three and some Anchor has got one. 646 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,920 Ferro manganese is, you know, the other one where I think 647 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,240 you've recently acquired from South from Symancorp their met 648 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,800 alloys business with a view of, you know, restarting or 649 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,840 reestablishing with different technology the, you know, fair 650 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,040 manganese production. But but I presume treating you 651 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,640 the manganese or that you you you mind yourself. 652 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,160 How did how did South Africa get to the place where a lot of this 653 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,080 smelting like kind of just just vanished or evaporated or, or 654 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,320 was no longer commercial and like what would it actually take 655 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,880 to to come back? So look, because we have the 656 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,840 largest Chrome and manganese also in the world, it is logical 657 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,280 to produce the ferromanganese and ferrochrome in South Africa. 658 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,240 But what happened over the years? 659 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,960 Some of the ferrochrome smelters were put in, put on care and 660 00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,560 maintenance. Some of them are shut down 661 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,040 completely. Currently Glencore and Samancor 662 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:10,360 Chrome, they carry on producing ferrachrome and on the ferromang 663 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,760 in each side, there's only one side that's called it's a Cato 664 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,720 Ridge operation of S Meng. But they're apparently closing 665 00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:19,760 in three months time. So how did we come to this point 666 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,880 is the following. First of all, ESCOM started 667 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,400 failing to give them power. When you don't have consistent 668 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,200 power, you can't run this matter and an S com increase the prices 669 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,200 in an in a high-priced environment, you become 670 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:37,880 uncompetitive. OK. 671 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:44,520 And also what happened is like over the years, China wanted to 672 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:50,600 buy ore, raw ore and then they wanted to benefitiate in China 673 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:57,280 because every Ferro Chrome or ferro manganese smelter means in 674 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,440 China means Chinese job. And South Africa unfortunately 675 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:11,520 missed the train in this whole thing because of especially the 676 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,400 unavailability of power and the high price of power. 677 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,960 And obviously Transnet played a role because they didn't give 678 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,560 the service to Chrome and Ferro Chrome and Ferro Manganese 679 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,520 services properly and ended up like having a situation where 680 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,920 producing Ferra manganese or Feracom in South Africa became 681 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,720 very, very expensive. So what we are trying to do at 682 00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:43,480 the moment is we have first of all SAT 32 was actually 683 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:49,120 maintaining the asset Metalos and we made a deal with SAT 32 684 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:55,320 Anglo JB Samancorp Manganese to give them the credit like they 685 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,680 really kept asset in in a good condition. 686 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,400 So they have 4 furnaces and they had the care and maintenance 687 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,720 team and I was not expecting less. 688 00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:11,720 But I can tell you now they started it too serious about 689 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,560 these kind of things. And when they do a deal they are 690 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,400 for them they are they are offloading an asset. 691 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,160 But for them the legacy is critical. 692 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,280 So they don't want to leave something. 693 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,560 That they harm the environment or they harm the community. 694 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,400 I think that. They're on the hook for it if if 695 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,360 it does right, even even post sales I. 696 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,160 Mean we, we, we saw companies they don't care about these kind 697 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,200 of things, but I mean my experience with S 32 and Rio 698 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,280 Tinto was that they're really serious about these kind of 699 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,800 matters after health and safety of their people, the second most 700 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,760 important thing is that making sure that environmental issues 701 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:54,600 are at the like at their focus. So they have 4 furnaces, 50 MW 702 00:40:54,600 --> 00:41:00,680 each and like to run a furnace and it was the largest 703 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,720 ferromanganese asset in the world when they put it on care 704 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:11,440 and maintenance in 2020. And obviously when they put it 705 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,080 on care and maintenance, that market went to to China. 706 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,840 They they carried on producing ferromanganese and they also had 707 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,720 and by the way like two of the furnaces was built in 2015 and 708 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,000 they, they put it on care meters in 2020, quite quite young, 709 00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:32,800 quite like new. They have A50 MW gas fired power 710 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,080 station on site. And the idea is like initially 711 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:42,920 we would like to start, start the furnaces with S compower and 712 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,240 get the capacity if you can get from Transnet to take the ore to 713 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:51,520 the plant and then to take the product to the port if you 714 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:52,760 can't. And we would like to create our 715 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,520 own capacity on the rail. But at some point we would like 716 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,160 to start creating our own power from coal. 717 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,680 And it's going to be very controversial because people 718 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,040 think that there'll be no funding for coal, coal-fired 719 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,320 power stations in South Africa. Yes, maybe not local, but I 720 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,960 believe that there will be money to be invested in coal-fired 721 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,400 power capacity. We would like to create 600 722 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,240 megawatts and 200 will be used in the plant. 723 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,640 And then we can, we can sell the rest to the to the grid. 724 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,880 But if I come back to you, what you asked, the main reason why 725 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,120 they went into trouble all these ferro alloy smelters was because 726 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,120 of power unavailability, power price, transit not performing, 727 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,000 delivering. And also in some instances DTI 728 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:43,960 didn't protect them with the tariffs. 729 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,600 I mean, some people criticize that like because that's, that's 730 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,240 protectionism. But at the end of the day, if 731 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,520 you have to, you have to protect your industries. 732 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,920 Otherwise you export the jobs to to China. 733 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:03,040 So you, you, you, you think that there should be greater, great, 734 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,920 greater tariffs imposed on the export of of these products to 735 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,640 China. No, not, not really. 736 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,040 Like when I say tariffs, it could have been more about like 737 00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,480 say for instance, local companies like Arcelor Mittal 738 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:21,200 and they need to use ferrochrome or ferro manganese instead of 739 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,880 like buying it from local companies, they might end up 740 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,280 buying from India or China. So I'm talking about that, that 741 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,160 that kind of tariff because I mean looking for tariff, for 742 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,560 instance, for exporting your ore. 743 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:39,520 I think it's a bit like controversial because it will 744 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,000 then it will defeat the purpose of like creating jobs because I 745 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,800 mean, if you stop like moving less, if you stop, if you start 746 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,800 moving less ore, that will mean that you're going to start 747 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,760 losing jobs. So I'm, I'm not for it. 748 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:58,160 I'm against it like, but but maybe protecting the imports 749 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,680 coming from India and China in terms of Ferrer alloys could 750 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,960 have been important. But it's irrelevant now because 751 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,440 Arcelor Mittal, which is the biggest steel manufacturing in 752 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,960 South Africa, is in trouble. They already said that they're 753 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,920 going to stop producing long steel and there's a big kind of 754 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,880 discussion around that. But the reality is not they're 755 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,800 not doing well because again, the steel price is not good. 756 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,760 Steel industry in the world is not doing well at the moment. 757 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,440 In what sort of, you know, ballpark figures with the, you 758 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,280 know, with the tariffs at that time being appropriate? 759 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,120 I mean we've generally have a free market approach the way 760 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,880 we've seen these things and it can be a bit of a slippery 761 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,560 slope. How do you how do you kind of 762 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,000 see an appropriate level? For me, are you, are you asking 763 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,240 for now or for the for the past? Had you recommended at the time 764 00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:55,560 to put a a tariff on imports from India or what have you? 765 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,280 Look, the The thing is like it's, it's almost like like 766 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,040 textiles. Think about it like if you 767 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,560 produce textiles in Cape Town and if you still allow Chinese 768 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,360 to to supply textile cheap because I mean, let's say a 769 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,120 factory can produce 100,000 shirts here in China, they 770 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,560 produce 100 million. How do you compete with it's 771 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,920 impossible. So how do you create the 772 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:26,000 capacity in South Africa to, to to do your own things like which 773 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,960 will result in creating jobs. So it's the same thing like if 774 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,720 your local steel manufacturers steel produces by ferromanganese 775 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:40,120 and ferrochrome from China or from India, then then you need 776 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,800 to decide they maybe put like a 10% or 15% or 5%, whatever it is 777 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:52,600 tariffs so that like your local guys become competitive, OK. 778 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,560 Looks like thank you so much for for joining us. 779 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,120 We've yeah, really appreciated your insights and. 780 00:45:58,120 --> 00:45:59,680 It was a good chat. Wicked thank. 781 00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:00,200 You. Thank you, mate. 782 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,360 Thank you. There we go, mate. 783 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:04,760 What do you reckon? Loved it? 784 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,720 No. I'm going to listen to it after. 785 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,160 Fantastic. You know who I do love though? 786 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:10,600 Maddie, I think you know this one. 787 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,360 WA water Boys. WA. 788 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,880 Water Boys, Gerard James and also I'll trick you there with 789 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,560 the order mineral mining services MMS. 790 00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:24,320 Grounded. Samvik Ground Support. 791 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,160 Derek, Kurt. CR insurance in the show. 792 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,920 Top of the show. K Drill. 793 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,960 Swig also in the show, 17 millimetres drilled. 794 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,160 By Quattro Project Engineering Pace Plant gurus. 795 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,800 We're almost there. Last but not least. 796 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,840 Tim Taylor, Crossbound energy. Crossboundary Energy. 797 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,760 The Champions change your name to Tim Taylor that why not from 798 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,640 1 conference to another mate get your tickets as IM 100 bucks off 799 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,080 underground operators. I've got 100 bucks off mine 800 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,080 because I was smart. You can get it too get in the 801 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:58,480 show notes. The information contained in 802 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,280 this episode of Money of Mine is of general nature only and does 803 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,040 not take into account the objectives, financial situation 804 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,120 or needs of any particular person. 805 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,480 Before making any investment decision, you should consult 806 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,520 with your financial advisor and consider how appropriate the 807 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,200 advice is to your objectives, financial situation and needs.