1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160 People tend to project in straight lines when real growth 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,720 is exponential. What we've seen in the best 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:10,760 market I see forecasts of in 2036100800 GW hours. 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,040 Well, guess what, we'll probably reach there in two years, not 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,040 five years. You've. 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,000 Been on on many sort of site visits seeing seeing parts of 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,200 the world. Well, the only the only 8 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,600 travelling I did recently was to Las Vegas for the Fast Markets 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:27,880 conference. How was that? 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,560 Oh, it was pretty awesome my first time in Vegas. 11 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,920 But to be honest I didn't. I didn't really like the 12 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,920 experience. I think it's a different Vegas 13 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,000 from what it used to be. I hear complaints that it's all 14 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,080 rent seeking behaviour there right now and it's really, 15 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,200 really true. Everything costs so much and 16 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:46,600 they try to charge you for everything. 17 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,520 Really. Yeah, OK. 18 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,560 Yeah, and and the hotel, every single hotel, they charge a 19 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:56,400 resort fee of something like 45 or 55 USD a night extra on top 20 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:57,760 of what the hotel already charges. 21 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:00,880 God, it must be private equity owned or something. 22 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,000 I know who doesn't do that. You should and you should come 23 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,720 with us to the Africa down under conference here in in Perth. 24 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,920 He's the 3rd to the 5th of September like pay to put on a a 25 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,320 banger. There's look, to be honest, 26 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:14,920 there's probably more gold opportunities, but but Africa a 27 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,320 great, a great, a great producer of of lithium where we're going 28 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:21,200 to be there and. You run a transition fund as 29 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,120 well YJ and there's plenty of transition critical minerals in 30 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,320 great continent of Africa. I'll tell you what, we could 31 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:28,280 probably fix you up with a, you know, with a discounted ticket 32 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,680 just for you IJ if you if you agree a couple of months. 33 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,400 And then, and then you're going to drop me in Congo and forget 34 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,480 all about me, you know? A great lithium projects in 35 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:37,920 Congo mate. Let's not forget about that. 36 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,080 See mate, YJ is coming to Adu Africa down under 3rd to 5th of 37 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,000 September. Get your tickets, they're in the 38 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,680 show notes. You and I are going to be there. 39 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,120 We are, mate. Very excited for this 40 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:48,840 conference. Big thanks to Peter for putting 41 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,840 this on mate. I think this is going to be the 42 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,240 year that Africa Down Under is. It's it's best year. 43 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,440 It's best year ever after growing massively. 44 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,840 Couldn't said it better myself mate, get your tickets. 45 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,280 Join us and YJ so he doesn't get dropped in the Congo. 46 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,000 Thank you so much, YJ for for for joining us on short notice. 47 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,240 We're trying desperately to understand or wrap our heads 48 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,560 around this anti involution policy, which has, has, has come 49 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,240 out of, of China. It's, it's made a big impact on 50 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,040 the lithium markets already. It's, it's, this is a like a 51 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,400 kind of a big thing that we're trying to wrap our, our heads 52 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,680 around. And we thought we'd, we'd, we'd 53 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,120 speak to you all about what's going on here from, from, you 54 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,280 know, the, the policy front in China, how that's affecting, you 55 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,440 know, the, the mines and the critical minerals supply and, 56 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,440 and why lithium is maybe maybe quite exposed to, you know, this 57 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,040 emerging thematic and policy shift in, in China. 58 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,080 And for the listeners who don't know, this is our YJ Lee who 59 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,120 runs the Arcane, who's a fund manager for Arcane Capital. 60 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,640 And your fund performance is going through the roof, mate. 61 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,240 You would, you would get a date up like 56%. 62 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:55,880 So phenomenal, phenomenal results. 63 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,280 So congratulations on your tremendous performance so far. 64 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,760 We're glad to have your insights to to to help us learn about 65 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:02,840 this. Yeah, hello. 66 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,640 Hi, guys. Yeah, great to be back on your 67 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:07,560 show. It's been what 9-10 months I 68 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,400 think since our last episode and boy, so much has changed in the 69 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,600 lithium market. I think in the previous episode 70 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,960 we were talking about well, the bottom probably arriving and I 71 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,600 think we are a little bit early on that. 72 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:24,280 But right now I believe we are past that. 73 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,000 I think the bottom was in June this year and when when spongy 74 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:36,440 min was about $600 a tonne and carbonate was 8000 and now you 75 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,320 know prices are about 50% higher than that so. 76 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,440 Sponge means above 1000 bucks a tonne, like in, in the space of, 77 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,560 of two months. It's it's truly remarkable. 78 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:45,480 You were? Yeah. 79 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,680 I it's, it's amazing, Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean at that point 80 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,360 in time, it didn't look realistic to me, which was we 81 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,800 had a we had a price where 2/3 even up to 2/3 of the producers 82 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,920 in the world don't make money. And that is to me not 83 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,240 sustainable. You know, for an industry that's 84 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,760 growing easily 2530 plus percent per year doesn't make sense that 85 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,240 more than half the suppliers don't make money. 86 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,640 So I think that probably marked the bottom. 87 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,079 And now like you rightly point out, with the policies in China 88 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:23,680 coming out a bit more in support of rational market driven 89 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,400 dynamics, that probably signals the bottom of the market. 90 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,560 How do you think about this, this anti involution? 91 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,800 It's like the the buzzword of the month at the moment. 92 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,360 YJ is it? Is it something sort of 93 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,880 dominating your thinking and and the conversations you're having 94 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,680 as well? No, I, I wouldn't say it's 95 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,560 dominating, but this anti involution thing, let's let's 96 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,840 take a step back and understand how this whole thing comes about 97 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,120 South China. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a 98 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,040 huge market and it is super, super competitive. 99 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,240 It is not the case that, you know, like the portrait in the 100 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,040 West is all centrally planned. It's all government controlled. 101 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,000 Not at all. What happens actually is that 102 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,520 there's a central government layer, yes, which sets the 103 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,200 country policies. And then there are individual 104 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,520 provinces which kind of act like your states in the US, right, 105 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,280 who have their own concerns, their own financing, their own 106 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,880 employment numbers to look out for, their own taxes to cover. 107 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,640 And therefore their, their incentives might be different 108 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,840 from that of the national government. 109 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,400 So national government sets the broad country policies. 110 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,120 The local governments have to manage their local employment, 111 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:45,800 local economies, and then down to the private sector, which 112 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,960 then has many companies that are fighting out in the market, also 113 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,520 fighting out at the same time against some of the state owned 114 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,720 enterprises. So it's, it's, it's an open 115 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:00,440 marketplace. So I was, I was kind of 116 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,440 describing the, the story of competition in China right now. 117 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,360 That was the backdrop. And what usually happens is that 118 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,160 the government sees a clear direction forward. 119 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,960 For example, 1020 years ago government says batteries, we 120 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,920 are going to be #1 in the world in lithium and batteries. 121 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,160 And that's and that and they set the long term vision for that. 122 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,200 Before that it was shipbuilding, before that it was steel, you 123 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,240 know. So what happens is that the 124 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,520 government has set this long term vision, then the states, 125 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,960 the provinces execute this in each of their provinces to the 126 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,760 best of their ability and and incentivize companies to start 127 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,560 up. Usually they incentivize this 128 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:47,120 via tax policies and other other, the usual economy 129 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,200 incentives. Yeah, some subsidies, some tax 130 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,720 policies, etcetera. And that allows many, many 131 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,400 companies to start up and then start competing with each other. 132 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,720 And you know, China is a huge place, so many provinces. 133 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,400 And when and when this happens, what usually happens is that at 134 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:10,160 the start of any major policy, maybe 50 to 100 companies get 135 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:11,840 started up competing in this space. 136 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,720 And then by virtue of their competition, the strong survive, 137 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,280 the weak die out. Typical Darwinian marketplace. 138 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,320 Yeah, So and this is and by by doing this, they gain the 139 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,560 skills, they gain the expertise, they gain the market shares and 140 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,360 the winners eventually become the strong companies of the 141 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,880 future, right. But the process of doing this 142 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,640 creates huge competition between the companies in each province 143 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,320 and between the companies at the national level. 144 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,560 That's why we are seeing today over 50 EV companies in China. 145 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,800 The numbers have dwindled over the last few years, Yes. 146 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:57,360 But then this is competition to the extent that they're all 147 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,080 trying to survive. And by driving prices down, that 148 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,200 has caused what we we have a joke. 149 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,840 You know, everything that Chinese do that Chinese produce, 150 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,760 they turn it into the price of cabbage. 151 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,800 We call it bite. Yeah, right. 152 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,240 So it goes from steel to ships to now EVs, right? 153 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,240 They're so, so cheap. You can have an EV and wooling 154 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:26,920 for what, $5000, right. So but this process of bringing 155 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:32,840 prices down, competing all the way leads to loss making 156 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,880 situations boom and bust cycles over over decades. 157 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,880 And now we are at the bottom of one of these cycles, which is 158 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,920 for lithium and which means that nobody makes money, but some 159 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,240 players are going to survive and come out the stronger for it. 160 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:55,120 And that's that's how it is in the typical Chinese way of doing 161 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:56,840 things. Yeah. 162 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,640 And, and that, that process, I mean, the, the, the competition 163 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,320 bit kind of makes sense. But one of the realities of the, 164 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,680 the competitive nature is that there are these, these price 165 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:10,960 wars which you know, might actually in in some ways be a 166 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,200 little bit anti competitive. The, the, the focus on this 167 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,080 supply side policy, anti involution, as I understand it, 168 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,800 it's actually looking to, to refrain from price wars by 169 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,560 reducing supply across, you know, industries being steel, 170 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:25,600 solar, you know, logistics, even medical devices. 171 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,000 That. And, and as a, as a result of 172 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,400 that, there's a, potentially a, a mentality or a, or a cultural 173 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,680 shift towards, you know, higher kind of profitability of the 174 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:38,760 businesses as a, as opposed to the, the, the, the highly 175 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,880 competitive overcapacity and price wars. 176 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,640 Is that is that like a fair characterization of of your 177 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,560 interpretation or of the policy? Yeah. 178 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:51,880 But what I'm yes, they are trying to do this. 179 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:58,440 But what I think that this may not be as successful as we think 180 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,560 it's going to be because this is pure market economics. 181 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,880 Price wars making short term losses for long term gain is 182 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,120 nothing new. Every economy goes through this. 183 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,840 We've seen, we've seen price wars happen in in Western 184 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,680 countries, in industries in the West as well. 185 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,760 So it does not mean that this is native to China. 186 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,280 In fact, what happened with the solar industry like you 187 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,880 mentioned a few years ago in the during the Green New Deal 188 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,560 periods, the solar companies were making so much money, they 189 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,480 are all cashed up. The big ones have billions of 190 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,280 yuan in, in, in the bank. They can, they can wait this 191 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,680 out. They can, they can make short 192 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:42,960 term losses. They're going to lose half, half 193 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,280 that stash, but they're going to come out with capacities double 194 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,360 treble what they were five years ago. 195 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,880 So and that drives down their costs in the longer term. 196 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:59,160 So I don't see this anti evolution policy immediately 197 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,960 succeeding because it is difficult. 198 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,400 You are fighting market pressures. 199 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:12,040 What I mean to say is that it is natural for for many companies 200 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,000 in an industry to compete on prices, drive prices even below 201 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,160 costs for the short term so that that's to win the long term 202 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,360 game. And no government policy can 203 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:27,200 stamp this out immediately to the extent that yes, they might 204 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,480 be able to target specific players that run at a loss so 205 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,960 that they can subsidise them their operations in other ways. 206 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:41,240 I.e CATL, yeah, that could be successful, but industry wide, I 207 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,240 don't think it will work for the solar industry and I don't think 208 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:44,440 it will work for the lithium industry. 209 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,080 Why, Jim, I'm curious to just hear a couple of thoughts on, on 210 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,240 why this has all kind of come about because there is a bit of 211 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,080 a notion that this came about from a cultural type push. 212 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,680 And it's the the government responding to that and that sort 213 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:03,640 of dynamic through the major cities and the the cost of 214 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,520 property rising so much and you know, salaries being so 215 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,880 competitive and these sorts of things. 216 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,120 Do do you say that? Is that how you've sort of 217 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,080 inferred this involution or anti involution policy setting coming 218 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,880 about? It's a little bit too early to 219 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,000 make firm judgements on this policy. 220 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,840 I think where it's coming from, yes, to some extent they do see 221 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:32,480 that this competition has gone a little bit out of hand and it's 222 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:38,520 causing, it's causing kind of how, how do I say it's, it's, 223 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,920 it's, it's a bit of a downer in terms of the national mentality. 224 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,320 You know, when everybody fights it out so much that nobody makes 225 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,600 any money and everybody suffers for it, it's not a great place 226 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,120 to be. So I think they are trying to 227 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:58,720 change the culture a little bit towards more healthy to set the 228 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,120 tone for a more healthy expectation of future market 229 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,120 conditions. But I don't know whether that's 230 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,800 going to work. Yeah, yeah. 231 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,520 And a lot of the the people we've sort of spoken with have 232 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,560 made the comparison to the supply side reform one point O 233 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:18,640 sort of call it in the 2015 sixteen period. 234 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,240 How do you sort of compare and contrast the differences now is, 235 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,880 is that a comparison you you kind of jump at or do you think 236 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,760 we're in a kind of unique situation here? 237 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,600 I mean, history rhymes, right? But never repeats itself. 238 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,320 Back then it was mostly competition at the large SOE 239 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,240 level. Right now China has become very, 240 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:47,560 very much a market private, most of the market power, a lot of 241 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:50,120 market power has shifted over to the private companies, 242 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,520 especially in the lithium space, should I say. 243 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:03,280 And it's, I think it's harder to, you know, actually make 244 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:08,920 changes the way they want, what they want to change because, you 245 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,960 know, it's not a, it's not a SOE that you have direct control 246 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,120 into. These are private businesses, 247 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,280 right? So, yeah, if you're trying to 248 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,320 have a supply side policy that is, is targeting the private 249 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,640 businesses, one mechanism to to to have some input there from, 250 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,400 you know, from, from the government level would 251 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,640 presumably be through these this licensing mechanism. 252 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,640 And this is this is the, the part of the news flow that has, 253 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,480 has, has really kind of rippled through the lithium equities in 254 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,200 the last couple of weeks. And it's, it's it's in relation 255 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,200 to, you know, China's government revising the Mineral Resources 256 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,240 Law and the legislation which outlines that mine registrations 257 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,240 and approvals are now down to the Ministry of Natural 258 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,040 Resources. And that also means that the 259 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,760 local governments can no longer license operations without 260 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:57,920 authorization from the ministry. We we kind of we we saw this a 261 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,280 little bit ripple through with with notably the junk she 262 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,120 cattle's mind, the Lipidala mind there. 263 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,480 I think, you know, it's also goes by the name 414 as well. 264 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,840 How did you interpret that, You know, series of events as it 265 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,120 ties into this, you know this this policy as well? 266 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,440 I see it in terms of economic incentive. 267 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,200 So when lithium prices was super high and lipidolite started 268 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,200 coming onto the scene in 2122, then the government had no issue 269 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,240 with these mines coming online through whichever loopholes. 270 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,560 You know, a Cow Lane granite mine coming online to produce 271 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,080 lipidolite, right as maybe the byproduct in a way that they 272 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,200 don't like being a byproduct, but it actually was the main 273 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,640 economic product of the mine, therefore feeding into the 274 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,160 supply chains and bringing down the lithium prices so that the 275 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,960 battery guys and the EV guys have can survive and and 276 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,080 dominate the industry for the future. 277 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,680 Yes, that's in line with the national policy and therefore 278 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,640 it's allowed. Now prices have dropped so much 279 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,200 that it's that other things become more important, right? 280 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,400 Pollution, for example, lapidolite is highly, highly 281 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,680 pollutive, toxic even to refine. And then you the amount of oil 282 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,320 you have to booth is simply ridiculous to produce a tonne of 283 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,080 lithium carbonate from that Jiangxi mine, the Jiangxia war 284 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,280 mine that CATL runs, it's a very, very low grade mine. 285 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,320 The grade is .28% and it's lipidoli. 286 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,120 You need to basically at such low grades, you need to move 287 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,200 what, 350 tonnes of ore to produce a single tonne of LC. 288 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Makes no sense, right? And if you want to scale this 289 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,840 up, some people say the, the, the capacity of this mine is 290 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,040 100,000 tonnes per year. I don't think it's that at the 291 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,560 moment, but that is the, that is the longer aim. 292 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,120 I think. Do the math. 293 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,440 You need to move 35,000,000 tonnes of ore to produce that 294 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,599 amount of LC before refining losses. 295 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,480 It's. Remarkable here. 296 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:10,319 So maybe you need to produce 50. Yeah. 297 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,680 So it's crazy. I don't think they have a 298 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,240 35,000,000 ton operation there. And the amount of pollution that 299 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,560 will create will be the same. So now I think other things 300 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,640 become more important. Cheap raw materials can be 301 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,160 bought in the open market from Africa, from all over the world. 302 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,280 Now that now, then the local pollution issues start coming 303 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,960 up. This this one mine, the junction 304 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,360 like junction was junction mine that was operating under a under 305 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:41,840 a Kalin license. Like it was the categorization 306 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:44,440 was a, you know, a Kalin, A Kalin mine, but that were 307 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,120 obviously not producing very much Kalin or any I think. 308 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:50,080 So it was the wrong characterization. 309 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,000 So the, the, the thing that they've kind of been like picked 310 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,440 up on under this new, new policy or enforcement of policy is to 311 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,360 get that, that licensing like to be appropriate. 312 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:02,120 There's a different royalty rate between the Kalin mines and, and 313 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:03,920 a little bit of like mine, as I understand as well. 314 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,840 So it's kind of like a, a higher cross cross, like a higher cost 315 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,520 structure to, to, to change it. And then within that same 316 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,040 province, there's like there's six or eight other other mines, 317 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,360 smaller scale, which, which have to get their own, like their own 318 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,040 licensing changed or September when they're, they're kind of 319 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:25,360 they're, they're they're set to lapse. 320 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,880 Is that all accurate? Like, and do you see risk to 321 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,920 them being like being being shut down as well or like, like 322 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,160 what's your interpretation of that? 323 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,280 To be honest, I don't think anybody knows for sure. 324 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,360 It's too vague in a moment. Nobody really knows unless 325 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,320 you're like super super insider. Gotcha. 326 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,160 So these are the rumours that are swirling around in the 327 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:45,880 lithium lithium WhatsApp group chat, so. 328 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,120 Yeah. But I mean, I mean, let's look 329 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:49,480 at a, let's look at a bigger picture, right? 330 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,360 We don't need to get into too much of the nitty gritty. 331 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:56,000 It doesn't matter what the slightly different royalties for 332 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,400 different minerals, etcetera are there. 333 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:58,640 Let's look at the bigger picture. 334 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,480 Catl's mine gets taken out for minimally 3 months, right? 335 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,360 Maybe even six months. That takes maybe about 20-30, at 336 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:11,320 least 15 to 30 kilotons of LC out of the market. 337 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,680 If the other mines get taken out for a couple of months as well, 338 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,640 then that's that much supply out of the market. 339 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,640 But the big picture is that the lithium market last year was 1.2 340 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,560 million tonnes. LC this year is probably going 341 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,240 to be 1.5 to 1.6. I think 1.6. 342 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,160 Other people more conservative than 1.5. 343 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,880 But the bottom line is that demand is growing 25 to 33% this 344 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:41,880 year every three months that the market, every three months the 345 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,360 demand is growing at maybe 6% or 7%, right. 346 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,200 So think of it this way. Every three months the the world 347 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,880 needs to bring a new TNTR wall, a new CNTR Lipido like mine to 348 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,680 the market to meet the incremental demand growth. 349 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,680 Is that going to happen? I suppose when you pave it like 350 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,280 that, you're getting in the nitty gritty of the smaller 351 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,480 supply stuff. Is, is is like less like a less 352 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,600 pertinent part of the equation when you think of the supply 353 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,280 demand and, and you've you've been like constant on this point 354 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,200 YJ for a long time that the like consensus is massively 355 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,160 underestimating demand here. And yeah, I'm keen to just like, 356 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,840 peel out what? Like why, Why consensus is so 357 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:27,280 wrong. Sometimes they are looking at 358 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,160 the narrative, the, the, the story out there is that low 359 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,960 prices means means that demand is not catching up to supply, 360 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,920 Therefore demand must be slow. But that's what that's how the 361 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,760 the news agencies tend to portray this picture. 362 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,520 But the fact is that go back to economics, right? 363 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,360 Basic economics and your demand curve price quantity. 364 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,440 The lower the price, the larger the quantity demanded. 365 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,520 Translate it into real world terms, the cheaper your car, the 366 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,920 more people switch to this cheaper model right? 367 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,640 And now we now we see with low battery prices cars E VS getting 368 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,800 cheaper than petrol vehicles, getting cheaper than diesel 369 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,440 vehicles. Heavy used vehicles are are 370 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,680 switching over very, very quickly because the ROI on these 371 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,600 electric vehicles is so much higher. 372 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,680 Now. One of the things that I've been 373 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,320 looking at very, very closely, which I think analysts or 374 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,600 consensus hasn't really focused on is electric trucks. 375 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,440 This is huge. This is a huge market in China. 376 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,840 They sell about last year, the heavy electric trucks in China 377 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,560 sold about 75,000 units. This year they are on track for 378 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,880 160,000 units over 100% growth year on year. 379 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,080 Each of these heavy trucks has a battery 10 times the size of a 380 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,040 of a passenger car. And these trucks are going 381 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,760 everywhere in mining, in hauling. 382 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,600 You know, you even see China travelling autonomous trucking 383 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,200 in China already. So I think that the demand for 384 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,480 lithium is a lot higher now that prices are low, which is which I 385 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:09,920 think is in line with economic theory. 386 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,320 I don't understand why analysts have a car demand growing in the 387 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,560 teens this year. Makes no sense. 388 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,240 So demand is going to grow gangbusters, right? 389 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,920 What does that sort of make you think? 390 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,600 If demand grows gangbusters, we know more supply needs to come 391 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,280 online and the supply is going to come online naturally faster 392 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,200 from the existing mines that are in production and can expand. 393 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,400 And when I think of that matter, think of Lion Town. 394 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,200 Obviously they revise their their ability to produce to to 395 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,160 2.8 million tons per annum that they're currently like, like 396 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,000 their mining rate is. But we know that that can be 397 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,240 like 4 million tons per annum pretty quickly, which means more 398 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,800 and more tons coming from underground, which means more 399 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,760 ground support. Is all ground support required 400 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,520 to enable the more mining coming from underground? 401 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,880 And why not use the best in the business when it comes to ground 402 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,440 support, Sandvik ground support? Sandvik ground support, they're 403 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,440 the only, the only name you need to know when it comes to ground 404 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,440 support, mate, because it can come to your mind in a jiffy 405 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,240 like that because there's distribution hubs all over the 406 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,600 world. They've got a team that cares 407 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,080 about it and they they provide tailored service, great 408 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,240 feedback, great people to order from great people to, to ensure 409 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,720 that the product is on spec and it is delivering the results 410 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,600 they need. Great, great, great person. 411 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,920 And Derek, Kurt A. 100%, mate. And just like the lithium market 412 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,680 growing gangbusters, these guys are improving year after year 413 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,040 after year. Mate, ground support is not 414 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,800 something that just needs to be sort of left in the corner. 415 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,320 It gets better by the day. You know what the tagline is 416 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:32,840 mate? Keeping people safe. 417 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,040 Keeping people safe, call Sandvik ground support one of 418 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,360 the pushbacks that a lot of people have. 419 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,040 And I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on why J is that a 420 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,720 lot of this has been subsidy LED, government incentives, tax 421 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,000 credits, these sorts of things, and maybe we've seen some of 422 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,040 them sort of peel off. How do you kind of respond to 423 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,280 the narrative that it's only been propped up by governments 424 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,360 thus far? We've seen subsidies fall off in 425 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,720 many, many economies and doesn't affect, doesn't affect the rate 426 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:07,280 of change of EV adoption goes up towards China is now at 50 over 427 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:12,960 percent and subsidies have been falling off year on year. 428 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,000 And the, the best component, the stationary storage like the, the 429 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,080 growth there has been, I think it's sort of safe to say it's 430 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,240 been astounding and, and underrated as well. 431 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,400 And I remember when we spoke a number of months ago, you were 432 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,360 pretty, you're pretty bullish on, on this part of the market. 433 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,240 I'd, I'd love to sort of get your reflections on how that's 434 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,640 grown versus what you, what you had thought back then and where 435 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,000 you see that kind of evolving. Well, actually I kind of raised 436 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,240 my best forecasts I think from 10 months ago. 437 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,520 I didn't, I didn't go back to check the previous numbers, but 438 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,480 I think they're higher now. I think by 20-30 we reach a 1.5 439 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:56,720 terawatt hour market from 200, just over 200 GW hours last 440 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:57,760 year. I think this year we are 441 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,480 slightly over 300. That's kind of in line with row 442 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,080 motions estimate as well, I think. 443 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,000 And why this is happening is because two things. 444 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,080 One, batteries have become so cheap that the payback period on 445 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,200 most grade level best is now five to seven years. 446 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,760 And that's great economics, right? 447 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,360 And in China, commercial best has now payback periods of one 448 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:24,360 to two years. I'm not kidding you. 449 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,160 I learnt this from the Fastmarkets analyst. 450 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,320 Credit to him, Chinese guy. After his presentation at the 451 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,520 Fastmarkets conference, I had to chat with him and he told me 452 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,280 this. What's happening in China is 453 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,000 that for the commercial guys, they are actually, when I say 454 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,440 commercial best, I mean smaller scale, privately owned best 455 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,600 systems, right? And what they do is that they 456 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,880 charge midday when of course prices are pretty much negative 457 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,120 and they discharge into the evening peak, which is the usual 458 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:58,400 best operation, right? But then they also charge 459 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,640 midnight and discharge early morning peak. 460 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,600 And that means that they use their asset twice a day, not 461 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:11,400 just once, and that drives the yield of the asset and therefore 462 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,120 the payment period becomes one to two years. 463 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:16,720 With that kind of economics, people sure as hell are putting 464 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,240 in tons of best into the market wherever they can. 465 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,800 I've not met a single best manufacturer that says that they 466 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,560 are short on demand. Yeah, that's, that's 467 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:25,960 fascinating. And this, this part of the 468 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,240 market is 1 where we've seen like a huge discrepancy with 469 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,840 the, with the people we've sort of spoken with and what their 470 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,760 growth assumptions are versus consensus broker. 471 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Like a sort of factor of 2X. Like some of the, the feedback 472 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,680 we've gotten is that they think this part of the market is twice 473 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,920 as big as what a, a heap of brokers out on, on the street 474 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,520 have have written it up to be. Is, is that the sort of like 475 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,920 thinking you've got as well that the, the consensus in in Wall 476 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,720 Street or whoever you sort of think about there is way below 477 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,960 where it's actually at? People are projecting like as 478 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,080 opposed to observing actual installation rates. 479 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,600 They're they're they're they're they're projecting, you know the 480 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,040 the wrong numbers. Yeah, of course. 481 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,760 I mean, it's, it's the typical thing, right? 482 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,080 People tend to project in straight lines when real growth 483 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,920 is exponential. What we've seen in the best 484 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:24,760 market I see forecasts of in 2036100800 GW hours. 485 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,680 Well, guess what, we'll probably reach there in two years, you 486 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,120 know, not five years. And the same forecast error 487 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,600 happens in solar. I mean, go back, go back to, and 488 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,920 that's the other part of the best equation that I forgot to 489 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,400 mention. Solar go back to the world 490 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,160 energy outlook for the last 10 years. 491 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,680 All right, they are, their forecasts are always off by a 492 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,080 factor of about 3-3 years ago they said that last year's solar 493 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,840 installations were going to be 200 gigawatts. 494 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,680 No, it was 600. And to the extent that they're 495 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,000 all forecasting linearly, the real growth has been vertical. 496 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,480 And now that drives the entire best market. 497 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,080 So much solar is being put in the world today. 498 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,280 A lot of markets experience negative electricity pricing 499 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,240 during the midday. You cannot install new solar 500 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,880 without new, without pairing them with batteries anymore. 501 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,720 And just in time, battery prices have come down so much that 502 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,840 solar plus batteries now are even cheaper on a kilowatt 503 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,160 basis, kWh basis than coal or gas. 504 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,360 So it all makes sense now. And and if we touch on the, the 505 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,800 chemistry that's that's really dominating in that part of the 506 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,680 market, LFP, is there, is there any competition in, in your mind 507 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,640 there? No, no competition there. 508 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,920 LFP is cheaper. It's got more charge cycles than 509 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,280 NMC. Grade batteries don't really 510 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,960 need the the incremental increase in energy density that 511 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,560 NMC delivers. You don't need, you don't need a 512 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,640 battery to be able to provide a higher faster acceleration for 513 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,520 your for your car because grade batteries don't move. 514 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,480 So yeah, LFPS are are the are the chemistry of choice for 515 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,800 best. Very while we're on the the, the 516 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,800 chemistry pace, Raja, I'd love to get your observations on like 517 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:23,120 in the lead up to, to cattles like IPO the the potential, like 518 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,840 the potential, any observations on like cattle's discourse to 519 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,400 the market being talking up sodium ion and then sort of 520 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,520 subsequent and, and, and, and maybe maybe, you know, ensuring 521 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,120 that there was an oversupply of production in the market via 522 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,520 their, their, their own mind, which if you, if you just take 523 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,360 it on face value, the mind is uneconomic. 524 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,600 However, cattle is making money on having lithium price be low 525 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,760 when their margin is, is, is incremental there. 526 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,040 Do you, do you see any like, like are you part of the cohort 527 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,480 that thinks that like maybe maybe cattle was was being a 528 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,720 little bit disingenuous in, in their, in the way that they were 529 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,960 talking about sodium mine and also in, in their in, in, in 530 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,200 this in the supply and margin kind of component of that 531 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,680 market? To be honest, not really. 532 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,360 I mean, I don't, I don't subscribe to every single 533 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,280 conspiracy theory. Not everyone, not. 534 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,120 Everyone someone named me, I mean, to the extent I think keto 535 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,480 is did run the the mind to influence lithium prices 536 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,120 globally. I think that's true. 537 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,240 But the sodium ion battery side, I mean, I'll give them to be 538 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,240 honest, if I will keto, I will probably develop sodium ion 539 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,520 batteries as well. Because you're, you're a large 540 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,400 battery company. You can never say, you know, 541 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,880 five years or 10 years down the road which chemistry is going to 542 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,600 become dominant. You have to play every, 543 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,520 everything and you have the resources to develop everything 544 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,880 and see what works right. And if our view of the lithium 545 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,200 market is right, that best electric trucks, cars, the 546 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,800 demand grows so quickly that lithium cannot, that there's not 547 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:04,080 enough lithium in 2020, even 2026 onwards to meet demand to 548 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,440 2030. Then something has to come in 549 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,440 and pick up the slack. And the only something out there 550 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,120 right now really is sodium. Yeah. 551 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:16,440 So I think that could be a use case for sodium to pick up some 552 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,640 of the demand that cannot be met via lithium batteries for, for 553 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,760 example, Best. Yes, a sodium battery setup will 554 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:30,560 require about three times the land footprint compared to LFPS. 555 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,880 But if you're putting Best out in the desert, yeah, I mean, you 556 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,520 can use three times the space. It doesn't matter. 557 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,320 So if, if we focus on the ramifications like we sort of 558 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,600 touched on the, the price response has been pretty, pretty 559 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,680 quick in, in the scheme of things. 560 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,400 But I think it's fair to say it's not in the interest of the 561 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,240 the Chinese government to see lithium prices run away to 562 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,080 levels they they got to sort of last time. 563 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,040 So how do you think about that dynamic? 564 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,840 I know that already sort of what a bit of a bit of sort of 565 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,240 influence in the amount of speculation that could take 566 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,560 place with regard to to futures pricing and these sorts of 567 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:08,760 things. Do you do you think there's a 568 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,680 big role that they're sort of playing behind the scenes in 569 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,960 where the lithium price sort of settles? 570 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,800 Honestly, no, I don't think they are trying to guide the 571 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,000 government on a on a national government level basis. 572 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,920 I don't think they're trying to guide the price of lithium per 573 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,120 SE. It's a very, very small market. 574 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,960 And to be honest, if you look at lithium as a percentage of costs 575 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,400 these days, given a huge scale of manufacturing, the raw 576 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,120 material isn't, yes, it's a significant, it's some part of 577 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,600 the bill of materials, but it's no longer as large as as they 578 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,040 used to be. Now manufacturing scale has kind 579 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,840 of driven production costs down in a in a very big way. 580 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,600 So even even if lithium prices were to double from where they 581 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,720 are today, go from 10/10/12 thousand to 2010, 2020, 4000 per 582 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,040 tonne, LCEI think the battery market could absorb that. 583 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,960 CATL and BYOD have I, I think have no real issues raising 584 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,320 prices by a little bit to cover this cost and then everybody can 585 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:21,720 and then there'll be a healthy and incentive pricing in the 586 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,320 market to incentivize new supply to come online. 587 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,520 Otherwise we go into a deficit much, much quicker than people 588 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,200 think. So, so if we sort of reflect on 589 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,200 that point the the potential supply response, obviously 590 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,400 through 22 into 23, we saw a magnificent supply response from 591 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,120 an incredible run up in the price. 592 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,760 And this sort of supply came from pockets where people didn't 593 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,400 think it might otherwise sort of come or it came on quicker from 594 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,680 parts, say Africa and Zimbabwe. Another sort of it would, are 595 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,720 there regions that you think might be able to sort of click 596 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,680 on supply or existing mines that might expand supply that you're 597 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,120 sort of keeping a keen eye on to to sort of see that this price 598 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,640 level maintains? Well, we are running out of 599 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,520 continents to be surprised from, right? 600 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,120 I mean, the only one is Antarctica, isn't it? 601 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:13,760 Yeah, but I mean. By two weeks from the sea floor, 602 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,800 mate. Well, that's that's nickel van. 603 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,880 People are trying that. I don't know how well that's 604 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,840 going to go, but. Well, that's not going there. 605 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,159 Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was a small market. 606 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,440 2022 was a very small lithium market. 607 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,480 It was what I think if I recall correctly, an 800K ton market in 608 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,760 total, nothing compared to iron ore, copper, etcetera, Tiny, 609 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,600 tiny metal market. We are still tiny, we're still 610 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,440 small, but it's a lot. It's a lot bigger than before. 611 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,840 This year if we are 1.6 million tonnes, that's double the size, 612 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,199 the market size has doubled. It will not be so easy to 613 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:53,400 influence the price either way from here going forward. 614 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,200 The larger the market gets, the more supply you have to bring 615 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,120 online to the market to crash the price. 616 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,280 So in next year, we are probably in a 2 million tonne LCE market. 617 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,920 You would have, if you bring on an additional 100K tonnes like 618 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,960 what happened from Africa three years ago, now you're now you're 619 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,760 influencing the market by 5% instead of the 16% that they 620 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,520 used to be. And it is not difficult, sorry, 621 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,800 it is not easy to bring 100K tonnes of supply to the market 622 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,720 quickly. How they did it in Africa was 623 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,000 literally they went to all the outcrops they could see and just 624 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,560 started digging. No mine plans, no very, very few 625 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,720 approvals. Just went in, started digging 626 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,440 and go. Same thing happened in Jiangxi. 627 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,280 We had school children. Unfortunately the economy 628 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,280 incentives were there. Go out into, you know, pick up 629 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,200 rocks, stuff it into rice sacks, load it into the back of the 630 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,920 truck, send it to the refiner. That's what happened. 631 00:35:54,440 --> 00:36:00,000 But I don't think it is easy to influence the market in a 2 to 632 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,920 3,000,000 tonne market. I, I suppose, I suppose like 633 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,880 what we're trying to figure out is so we've had some, some 634 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,920 supply out of the market. You pave the picture that demand 635 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,480 is much like much higher and growing much faster than most 636 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,560 the market is expecting. A lot of the, the people who are 637 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,160 more, have a more moderate outlook for lithium in, in the 638 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,760 short term. They point to, you know, 639 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,800 inventories are still very high, but they're probably not 640 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,280 focusing on the fact that inventory days is at a local low 641 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,440 because the market's much bigger. 642 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,400 Now. Is the market tight enough in 643 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,720 your opinion? Like have we like is the market 644 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:34,280 so tight that we're going to see they're pretty pronounced move 645 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,800 forward and upward in the price in your expectation? 646 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,640 Like is, are we, are we at that moment right now? 647 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,760 Is this, is this a trend that's going to continue or are we kind 648 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,240 of just going to like moderate around, you know, 1000 bucks a 649 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,480 tonne AC6? I I think you're exactly right 650 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,240 that people are focusing on the wrong inventory numbers, 651 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,760 absolute inventory levels. Yeah, they matter, but it's the 652 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,480 days in, in usage that really, really matters. 653 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,800 In a market that's growing 30% a year, you need 30% more 654 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,640 inventory every single year. So that number has to go up. 655 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:15,000 And you're also right that it's, it's I think it's tightening in 656 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,680 the sense that we've not seen rejections of shipments like we 657 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:24,840 saw in the last cycle. So in the 2020 lithium up, was 658 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,440 it 2020 or 18 in the previous lithium boom, boom and crash 659 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,080 during the crash shipments were being rejected right from from 660 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,760 Australian producers. We don't see that in this 661 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,720 market. So something is going on. 662 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,640 We've heard that too. We've heard that too. 663 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,800 There's been no observation of any, any cargoes, yeah, like 664 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,640 being, being being pushed back or delayed or anything like 665 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,440 that, like it's been seen. There must be speaking with the 666 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,680 same people. YJ Yeah. 667 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,560 Yeah, yeah. So I mean to the extent that and 668 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,640 and it's, and it's very weird. I'm even hearing stories of low 669 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,360 grade, even lepidolite being refined together or or blended 670 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,560 into with sport, you mean. And honestly, I have no idea how 671 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,240 the how this technical, the technical process of this would 672 00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:10,200 work because it to my understanding it's kind of 673 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,880 different processes. But yeah, I think we've got to a 674 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,880 point where people are realising the market is probably a little 675 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,800 bit tighter than they think. I don't want to make any 676 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,720 speculation on prices where they go in the short term because 677 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,600 price forecasts I think are inevitably wrong. 678 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,200 But we just need to step back, take a look at the big picture 679 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,360 thing of incentive pricing and whether or not we are there yet. 680 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,680 Right now $1000 barely covers costs for Western Australian 681 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,920 players, Some of them. So if you want the supply to 682 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,880 continue producing for the next three years, it has to be here 683 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,880 or higher. Does $1000 incentivize new for 684 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,760 spodumene? Incentivize new supply to come 685 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,680 online? Barely. 12,000 LC. 686 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,560 Is it enough for a new brine to come online or new clay or DLEI? 687 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,720 Don't think so. So we're not there yet. 688 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,440 It's, it's simple when you just think of it in the with your 689 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,720 outlook and if you're, if you have the same expectations on 690 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:22,640 demand growth that you have. Yeah, we, we, we're, we're 691 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,280 pretty reflective of this moment as a, as a result of what, you 692 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,680 know, could, could be a substantial policy shift 693 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,720 combined with, you know, demand and market tightness all at the 694 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,760 same time. Like what do you think? 695 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,480 Like we, and also maybe our listeners should be, should be 696 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,200 paying more and more attention to. 697 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,400 The fact, the fact is that supply growth is all baked in 698 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,760 all right. People are producing, are 699 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,760 developing mines from the same places where they know that 700 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,960 that's been a a deposit for the last 1020 years. 701 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,120 So to me, supply is no longer surprising. 702 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,040 Demand is where people should spend all their time analysing 703 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:09,520 and comparing versus forecasts. I think EV adoption is growing 704 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,920 even faster than people think. Yes, the US is slow and the US 705 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,800 media dominates headlines. You know, it it articles coming 706 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,800 out of the US that say, oh, EV sales are slowing makes no 707 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,680 sense, right? It's growing, it's accelerating 708 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,400 in China, it's accelerating in. Even, shall we say less 709 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,360 developed economies, they are literally skipping the petrol 710 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,520 age. They don't want cars. 711 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,200 They don't want petrol cars anymore. 712 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:43,400 They are going straight for EVs. BYD is sending their 7000 car 713 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,440 car car carrier ships everywhere around the world. 714 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,560 That ship has gone to those ships now. 715 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,720 Now they have a fleet. Those ships have gone to 716 00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:57,120 Germany, they have gone up north to my neighbor Malaysia, they 717 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,480 have come to Singapore, Right. So EVs are being exported all 718 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,720 around the world from China now. And I think everybody should 719 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,560 focus their attention on demand. It's growing so much faster. 720 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,000 Just look out for the confirming data. 721 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,200 That's a, that's a really interesting perspective, YJ 722 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,120 because the, the classical capital market capital cycle 723 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,360 investor would always sort of be taught to focus on supply 724 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,760 because supply is in a sense easier to determine because the 725 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,680 speed at which you can turn a mine on takes time. 726 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,760 And then you can, it would just sort of base from there. 727 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,960 Whereas the demand side needs you in a sense to understand 728 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,480 human psychology and these sorts of things. 729 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,320 But but you sort of come at it from the perspective of there's 730 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,480 enough confirming data. If if you look backwards, which 731 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,800 people aren't doing to, to give you that confidence to look 732 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,200 forward across all the sections of the market, whether it's a VS 733 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,760 stationary storage and sort of see that this, this is a real 734 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,120 sort of trend that's going to continue. 735 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,600 Well, well, mate, I literally have a degree in economics. 736 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,880 And one thing that we actually do see in economics is that 737 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,480 demand creates its own supply. Yeah, yeah. 738 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,400 Lower prices like to more demand the the demand. 739 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:16,880 It's not just about lower prices, right? 740 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,160 I mean, if it's a very real thing, if human. 741 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,240 The reflexivity of yeah, yeah, the network. 742 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,520 Effects that come from I mean. More and more correct. 743 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not that supply creates 744 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,360 demand. I mean, if you have a supply of 745 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,800 something, you still have to convince people to want it. 746 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:35,040 And then the more they want it now, then your supply becomes 747 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,560 valued. If you have. 748 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,720 Yeah, if there's something that is not demand in demand, then 749 00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:41,000 you're never going to get a price for it. 750 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,360 But if there's a demand for something, it will drive, it 751 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,600 will change the market to create supply. 752 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,560 So demand creates its own supply. 753 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,160 I love that point. YJ I'd, I'd, we'd love to, to 754 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,720 give you a bit of an overrated, underrated, quick, quick fire, 755 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:01,520 quick, quick, quick, quick, quick fire segment. 756 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,560 If you're, if you're open minded and willing to give us your, 757 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,960 your salient views on on, you know, hopefully I've got like 10 758 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,720 things written down here that I'd love your overrated 759 00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:12,000 underrated. I think we can add a couple as 760 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,720 well. Yeah, the the couple ideas we 761 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:14,880 will. The first one's very easy 762 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,080 because we know what your response is. 763 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,400 ESS overrated. Underrated. 764 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,880 Not not loved enough, but. Yes, massively underrated is the 765 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,000 the response. Yeah. 766 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,320 It's not overrated, underrated, but it's one of the other. 767 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,000 BYD or Tesla as an electric vehicle maker? 768 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,240 Have you got a preference? BYD. 769 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:41,880 Yeah, undeveloped Western Australian spodumene projects. 770 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:47,320 Overrated or underrated? Wow, sorry, Broad. 771 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:48,880 That's a broad, broad range, man. 772 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,080 I know, I know, I said. Undeveloped. 773 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,360 Undeveloped. There are not many big deposits 774 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:57,880 left. Mostly overrated, sorry. 775 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,240 We might have asked you this one last time, but worth getting 776 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,680 another take the the future prospects of DLE. 777 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,600 I recently became a little bit more convinced that DLE could 778 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,160 work, but at the same time it is not easy to transplant to other 779 00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:20,240 brine fields. Therefore probably still mostly 780 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,960 overrated in in most people's minds. 781 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,320 I don't think that much DLE supply comes online in the near 782 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,640 term. Brazilian Spodumene. 783 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,960 Resilience. Spodumene Brazilian. 784 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,560 Brazilian. Brazilian. 785 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,800 Oh yeah, low cost supply will continue to produce for a long, 786 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:40,800 long time. Underrated. 787 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,560 Yeah. Albemarle. 788 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:53,480 Broad, broad question. Nah, neither overrated nor 789 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,200 underrated. It's it's imbalance. 790 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,280 Hong Kong listed lithium producers. 791 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,080 Underrated. Yeah. 792 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,120 How about investing in Chile for for lithium production? 793 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,480 You really want to get into that all. 794 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:22,600 You have to say is overrated consolidation probability of 795 00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:27,200 Chinese downstream. Low. 796 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,080 Yeah. This one's sort of slightly 797 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,560 adjacent, but I know you've you've covered it in the past. 798 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,520 Overrated or underrated Silver? Ah, still underrated. 799 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,760 Beautiful YJ I've got, I've got none, none left, but all I've 800 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,120 got is just appreciation for your insights and you're making 801 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,480 the time to give give you a salient use an analysis. 802 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,960 It's refreshing, it's compelling, it's course for us 803 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,920 to to evaluate our own assumptions in a, in a market 804 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,640 that's clearly growing rapidly. And yeah, congratulations on 805 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,080 your awesome performance so far. And and we hope you will come 806 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,360 back and and join us in the future as as the market 807 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,880 continues to to develop here. Oh, yeah, definitely. 808 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,440 Thank you guys again for the opportunity to be on your show. 809 00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:16,120 Just happy that, yeah, now at least we have a bit of a track 810 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,280 record to show potential investors. 811 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,560 And I hope that you know this, this gets our, you know, our 812 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:23,680 name out there a little bit more. 813 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,880 Thank you. Absolutely great to chat again 814 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,920 YJ, thank you. Thank you. 815 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,040 Super Insights. Super Insights makes me reflect 816 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,440 a lot yeah. Big big big fan of IJ Big fan of 817 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,640 our partners which make our production possible. 818 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,560 Big thanks to them A. 100% Axis mineral Services, Sandy Ground 819 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,080 support Africa down under and focus by market Tech mate. 820 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:45,440 Uduru. Uduru. 821 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,680 Now remember, I'm an idiot. JD's an idiot. 822 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,000 If you thought. Any of this was anything other 823 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,520 than entertainment. You're an idiot and you need to 824 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:55,320 read out a disclaimer.