1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 My most controversial view is I think they should go back for 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,880 the year hold. I think all the exchanges that 3 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,000 say, look, if you're going to get warrant coverage, you at 4 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,240 least have to be able to hold the stock for a year. 5 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,920 And a year is going off that long period of time, especially 6 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,680 when you're getting some sort of warrant coverage. 7 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,240 Jeff Phillips, he's been financing and backing resource 8 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:22,840 companies for more than 30 years, sat on both sides of the 9 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,360 table, broker, funder, investor through every mining cycle. 10 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,600 No spotting serious teams early, walking away from bad paper even 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,520 faster. You've Jeff, you've been behind 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,280 a bunch of a bunch of names that have gone on to have great 13 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,640 shareholder success. Almadex, Riverside, Headwater, 14 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,920 those are those are the North American names and, and down 15 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:42,960 under. I'm sure we'll explore some of 16 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,200 the ones you've been involved in too. 17 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,680 But in short, you're a bit of a seasoned sector insider who 18 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,800 invests your own money. You tell it straight and you 19 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,560 understand how value actually gets created. 20 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,560 And the challenging small cap junior mining end of the 21 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,280 business. Jeff, thanks for joining us on 22 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,080 Money and Mine. Thank you for having me guys. 23 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,239 Really appreciate it. I am thrilled to, to kind of 24 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,520 peel into your, your brain, Jeff, on, on some of the things 25 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,400 that are just part of your, your investing DNA or, or part of 26 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,200 your screening process. And they can't be erased. 27 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,160 And I'm talking about things like like alignment management, 28 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,960 alignment, capital, capital structure, like, what are these 29 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:27,320 things like mean to you? Because you know, I, I know that 30 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:29,640 without them, it doesn't matter how good the rocks are. 31 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,960 It's it's just a no. Yeah. 32 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,320 Basically I look for two things, share structure and people. 33 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,000 When I say share structure, you said capital align and that's a 34 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,160 good way of putting it. I like to see that management 35 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,800 has what some people call skin in the game. 36 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,520 I like to make sure that they don't have skin in the game, but 37 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,800 they're fully reporting. You guys are different in 38 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,200 Australia because you can see all the shareholders, but in the 39 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,640 Canadian markets, you know, unless you're fully reporting, 40 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:56,800 you can do what you want with your shares. 41 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,560 So I like to see management that's got a sizable position 42 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,400 that's fully reporting. That means they're reporting to 43 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,320 Cedar in the Canadian markets or the equivalent in the US 44 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,160 markets, their position and you're going to know if they 45 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,920 decide to sell stock or, or you know, and so forth. 46 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,920 So the other thing I like to see with shareholder alignment, and 47 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:17,560 I think that's a great term, is I like to know who the other 48 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,760 shareholders are. You know, a lot of these, it's 49 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,480 the same in Australia, although I'm more focused on the North 50 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,040 American markets, but obviously there's crossover. 51 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,000 I like to see that the other shareholders are like minded to 52 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,360 me that they're, they're in the, you know, investing in a company 53 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,840 for a period of years, not months. 54 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,440 So, you know, the development and exploration business is very 55 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,640 difficult. So here in the Canadian markets, 56 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:44,000 you know, it used to be back when I first came in the 57 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,160 business in the 90s and, and had quite a bit of success when you 58 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,800 did a private place when you had to hold the stock for a year. 59 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,560 That's why you got some warrant coverage. 60 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,080 When I retired after selling an oil and gas company off of the 61 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,080 NASDAQ, I came back in the business in 2004, 2003, started 62 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,800 financing companies in 2007. I was astounded to learn that 63 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,720 the whole period was down to four months. 64 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,280 I don't know what you guys do in Australia, but but even now, you 65 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,560 know, there's these life financings in Canada which are 66 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,280 no hold and they still get warrants. 67 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,600 So you, you get a lot of warrant collectors. 68 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,160 I want to make sure that management is, is, you know, I 69 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,400 like to use a boat analogy. I'm getting on a lake to get to 70 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,160 the other side in a boat. Now I want to make sure 71 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,880 management's going to row all the way to the other side and 72 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,600 they're not jumping out when I don't know it. 73 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,880 And I want to make sure the other shareholders are also 74 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:32,320 pulling the Ords. You know, I want to know 75 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,080 everybody's in that boat trying to get to the other side. 76 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,720 So that's, that's share structure. 77 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,600 And obviously having good people who have a track record of of 78 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,720 growing companies, growing market caps or are the ultimate 79 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,440 thing selling an asset to another company is, is what I'm 80 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,600 looking for. You you'd be disappointed to 81 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,080 hear that people can flog their stock within about a day of 82 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,320 getting it here in in Australia once the racing's done. 83 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,440 But we don't have, we don't have, we don't have the yeah, 84 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,480 like the prevalence of like attaching warrants and warrant 85 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,000 collectors that. Nowhere near as as strong as it 86 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,840 sounds in in North America and Canada in the resource market, 87 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,720 yeah. Well, look there, there may be, 88 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,120 there's slight differences obviously, but at the end of the 89 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,000 day, the resource market is is not really investing. 90 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,959 It's educated, speculating and and again, you know, whenever 91 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:21,560 you have things that can go up and become billion dollar assets 92 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,760 in any type of market, you get the people that aren't 93 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,560 necessarily the long term shareholders or people trying to 94 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,200 do what's best for the group. So. 95 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,240 Jeff, I'm really curious, like what Trev said to peel into your 96 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,520 investing framework and, and in particular your, your 97 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,200 psychology, because having done a bit of digging, the the way 98 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,680 you sort of frame it is, is, is simple, but simply an investing 99 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,040 is often the hardest thing to do. 100 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,360 Being patient and hanging in the name for for two to three years 101 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,160 at a time. But you don't seem to, you don't 102 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,720 seem to have a an awful lot of trouble sort of doing that. 103 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,920 You, you, you seem pretty sort of down, down to earth about all 104 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:01,120 of it. Do you, do you still feel you 105 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,160 have that internal struggle, you know, holding on to things, 106 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:05,760 being patient, checking the boxes? 107 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,480 Or do you think over time you've just become quite at ease with 108 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,600 it all? I think you've become more at 109 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,640 ease with it over time and you learn from past mistakes. 110 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,760 You know, I've been doing this for a long time and it just 111 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:19,880 depends on what you're trying to do. 112 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,360 People have different goals. If my goal was to make the most 113 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,760 money possible, there's ways to do that, that I can make a lot 114 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,880 more money. Part of my joy. 115 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,480 And still, again, I'm essentially retired working full 116 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,040 time right now, but because it's because I enjoy it. 117 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,040 I mean, I, I, I, I enjoy working with management teams. 118 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,800 I enjoy the, the hunt. I enjoy, you know, as long as 119 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,440 we're looking for something meaningful, you know, I, I enjoy 120 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,120 that. And, and more so than making 121 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,280 money on a great deal, it's being part of a team that makes 122 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:53,240 money and, and, and having that connection. 123 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,680 And some of the people we talked about earlier, like Michael 124 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,760 Hudson, you know, we've been friends now for 15 years and 125 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,320 we've had some great wins together. 126 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,560 And I'm sure we'll have some more in the future. 127 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,160 He's a great Australian geologist. 128 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,440 But at the end of the day, the friendship and the camaraderie 129 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,280 and the, and the past experiences are what really make 130 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:10,800 it fun. So. 131 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,200 This is. Yeah, this is an interesting 132 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,280 feature of like the part of the market that you focus on. 133 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:19,560 I think Canadians like it's even more prevalent than maybe 134 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,480 Australia, but we, we all like both, both mining centres have, 135 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,840 yeah, these like kind of individual high net worth 136 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,520 financiers who have like a, they might have like a mining house 137 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,480 or, or, or a bunch of kind of relationships with geologists. 138 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,640 And it's the, the kind of like tying the geologists with the 139 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,640 individual with their own connections that can, that can 140 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,080 maybe, you know, seed some, some new project in a, in a, in a 141 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,480 public vehicle with, with some kind of story. 142 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:48,600 And it's like, wrapped around it. 143 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,160 I'm, I'm kind of just like curious how all of that comes 144 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,480 together? Like, how do you, how do you 145 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,920 actually like identify, like, I identify a project worthy of, 146 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,840 worthy of, of investing in the 1st place. 147 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:05,880 Be be kind of cultivate a network of finances alongside 148 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,880 you who you know are like motivated to be there for the 149 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,120 same duration and and see understand the opportunity. 150 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,920 Well, over time, you build that network up, you know, again, 151 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,680 and, and sometimes people fall out of your network because 152 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,800 they're not exactly what you, you thought they'd be. 153 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,400 I, I don't you again, I'm not Canadian. 154 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,640 I'm, I'm based here in San Diego, CA, not a mining Mecca of 155 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,520 the world, although obviously Rick rules operation was based 156 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,000 here for a long time. And but, but, but again, you 157 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,320 build up that network of people and you build up teams and 158 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,240 there's all kinds of, you know, I liken this to, I think I'm 159 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,120 used to analogy. I don't know if you guys have 160 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,720 fantasy, fantasy sports there, but all my friends here play 161 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,000 fantasy football and they're, they're on teams and they pick 162 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,920 their teams and they're every weekend, they spend all weekend 163 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,120 talking about their teams. I play football and I enjoy the 164 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,920 sport, but I don't play fantasy football cause all week long I 165 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,000 have fantasy resource stocks in the market. 166 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,200 I have friends and teammates. And you know, again, it's like 167 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,240 you said, it's a shareholder, you know, capital alignment and 168 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,640 you know, but again, there's lots of good groups, you know, 169 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,840 even here in North America, America and Canada that, you 170 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,240 know, do great jobs and I respect them, but I don't 171 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,200 necessarily work with them because I have my own network. 172 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:24,480 If, if I like think more deeply about the the point on on 173 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,760 alignment, just just one small like if you, if you like, if you 174 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:35,240 see ACEO that has like AI don't know like a three $300,000 per 175 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,120 year salary or $350,000 per year salary and they own like less 176 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,159 than 1% of the stock. And it's like a, you know, 5 to 177 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:45,240 $10 million market cap. What does that tell you? 178 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,440 Oh it. Tells me I probably don't want 179 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,200 to look at the company anymore. I look at, you know, like deals 180 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,400 today. You know, there are some cases 181 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,720 where it's a young guy that's been brought in and he doesn't 182 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,040 have a lot of money and, you know, so he doesn't have a lot. 183 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,360 But again, you know, but again, if you tell me that same 184 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,240 company, the CEO owns 2%, he's a younger guy, but they have, you 185 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,360 know, two other directors at each own 15% fully reporting. 186 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,240 And then you tell me that, you know, they've got several funds 187 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,360 that own fully reporting and it's 50% of the stock is owned 188 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,000 by, is owned by fully reporting shareholders. 189 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,920 I know those people are trying to build something because 190 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,960 they're not being able to flip their stock. 191 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,320 And you know, we're into a market now, which it makes it 192 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:28,920 even harder. You know, we're, we're in a bull 193 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,720 market. So, so again, you know, the 194 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,520 hardest thing is if you've been in the business a long time is 195 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,160 you see the stocks go up and you have to remind yourself what a 196 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,280 bull market looks like. Because again, otherwise it's 197 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,400 kind of like, well, Gee, are these things really worth 4 198 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,600 times what they were 12 months ago? 199 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,560 But the fact is in a bull market, and the last one I saw 200 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:53,680 was the 2008 to 2011 bull market, which really was just a 201 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:58,080 continuation of the 2003 to 2007 with the real estate bubble in 202 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,160 between. You know, it's pretty amazing in 203 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,000 a bull market. So I think this is going to be a 204 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,440 really big bull market. And I think, you know, a lot of 205 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,600 the people that are short term players, they're going to be 206 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,920 real happy they're finally getting bailed out or going to 207 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,320 get out early. And I think they're going to 208 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:13,800 find this thing has a long way to go. 209 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,880 How to to sort of further Trav's question there, how do you think 210 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,000 about options, performance rights and these things? 211 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,840 Do you kind of comb through them quite carefully and and make 212 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,800 sure everything is sort of on side with how you think about 213 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,800 alignment? Yeah, well, mostly options to 214 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,240 management are fully reporting, so I can see what that is. 215 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,000 And you have the problem that, you know, when those are 216 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,480 expiring, sometimes they have to exercise those and sell some for 217 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,080 tax purposes. So I do keep an eye on that all 218 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,560 the time and talk to those companies. 219 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,640 I typically have half a dozen companies. 220 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,720 I'm a large shareholder and I have, I own more companies, but 221 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,720 I mean very large shareholdings and I also consult for those 222 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,120 companies. So yeah, I'm monitoring all 223 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,520 that. But again, most of my companies 224 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,640 have anywhere from 30 to 50% fully reporting insider 225 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,040 ownership. Their main goal is to make those 226 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,560 shares worth money and they're not able to sell those shares 227 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:05,320 unless they transact, which means they sell the business or 228 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,320 they get into a wild bull market. 229 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,480 Again, if I own a stock that's up $0.50 stock, and this has 230 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,720 happened many times over 30 years, and we get into a bull 231 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,080 market, it goes to $15.00. It may not get sold it, you 232 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,200 know, again, it's got something real, but I'm going to take some 233 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,080 profit off the table and anybody should in that situation. 234 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:26,360 I'm not, I'm probably taking it off the table at 4:00 and 5:00 235 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,480 and 8:00 and $10.00. But, but again, I think we're in 236 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,200 that situation where it gets very hard. 237 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,000 If you're been in the business a long time and you have evaluated 238 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,440 lots of companies, I think this the bull markets always skew, 239 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,520 you know, you tend to be too smart for your own good. 240 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,960 I had a famous, one of my mentors, I've had a number of 241 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,760 them was Jim Dines. You wrote the Dines letter for 242 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,600 63 years here in the United States. 243 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,040 Very famous gold bug, Internet bug, first marijuana bug. 244 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,760 He had lots of things. He claimed that he was the first 245 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,280 in and he was. But one of his things was, you 246 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,000 know, look, don't think. And he was referring to charts 247 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,440 that, you know, again, if something's in a bullish trend, 248 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,240 just because you think it's gone up a lot, you know, don't think 249 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,800 too much in a bull market, you know, So I think we're heading 250 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,440 into a market where, you know, I have to remember to look and not 251 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,520 think because if I think too much, I'm going to go, Gee, I 252 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,560 remember the last 15 years and and it wasn't this market, so. 253 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,760 Rains can be the enemy of gains in a bull market, but the. 254 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,680 Absolutely. That's a great way of putting 255 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:31,400 it. Yeah, but it's funny because 256 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,240 some of the things that do that they end up, you know, going all 257 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,080 the way back down again. And I I'm, I'm certain you've, 258 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,760 you've written a few of those in your in your tenure. 259 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:40,760 Jeff absolutely. Yeah. 260 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,840 I, I, I always joke. I sell, I sell some of it too 261 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,560 early. I sell some of it perfectly and 262 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:49,440 I hold some just because I think it might go higher and I still 263 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,520 have it lower. So, you know, again, you, you 264 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,840 never, you know, I mean, the best deal is the deal that sells 265 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,760 at, at, at a record, which is very seldom. 266 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,120 But you know, and I've had those where a deal sold to another 267 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,480 company and it's sold at the highest price the shares ever 268 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,800 traded at. And it doesn't get any better 269 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,240 than that. I just had a deal that I 270 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,200 financed, I was in the financing called Horizon Copper and it was 271 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:14,440 bought out by Royal Royal Gold, the royalty company and and all 272 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,280 cash offer. That's kind of a no brainer. 273 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,720 It was bought out at the highest price it ever traded at and that 274 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,120 was great. So you, you seem to really 275 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,600 analyze the, the people, the people behind businesses, the 276 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,080 people aspect of bull markets. How does the exuberance where 277 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,080 we're feeling right now, which is sort of flushed on quite 278 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:38,800 quickly compared to 2007, call it 2011, 96 ish before BREEX, 279 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,480 these sorts of things. You know, I was, I was probably 280 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,600 your guy's age and, and during breaks I came in the market. 281 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,200 I actually indirectly worked for Rick Roll and we were pretty 282 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,760 successful and, but had less capital. 283 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,000 So that was a crazy market from, I mean, I started investing in 284 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,760 the resource stocks right out of college. 285 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,280 So that must have been 92 or three or something like that. 286 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:02,120 I mean, it was a really crazy market. 287 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,720 It's hard for me to remember. You know, I'll give you an 288 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,200 example that I can remember, you know, in a bull market. 289 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,080 I had a company in the rare earth boom, the first boom back 290 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,800 in 2008, and before people knew what rare earths were, they 291 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,760 weren't even talked about. I'd financed the company at 292 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,680 $0.75. Then the real estate crisis hit 293 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,000 and there were no bidders for stocks and the resource sector 294 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,160 and I was calling another high net worth individual and we were 295 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,640 playing every other day who was going to buy the stock at $0.26. 296 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,200 The bull market took off and where it's got, you know, going 297 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:33,800 and, and all the commodities were doing good. 298 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,160 No 9:00 and 10:00. And we ended up financing the 299 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,520 company after we couldn't find buyers and bought them places 300 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,000 shares. We did another financing at a 301 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,920 dollar. A month later we financed it at 302 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,440 $1.50 and a month after that we financed it at $3. 303 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,120 We never sold any of that stock. It was a bull market. 304 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,000 The stock eventually went to $1819 a share. 305 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,760 You know, it was trading its entire float two years later 306 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,800 every day. So again, from that, that's a 307 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,840 bull market from three years where nobody wants to buy the 308 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,320 stock to three years later. It's on CNBC here in the States 309 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,400 and they're talking about this little company that you couldn't 310 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,120 get anyone to buy three years before. 311 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,320 So we're, we're in early innings of a bull market. 312 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,560 That doesn't mean there won't be some hiccups. 313 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,880 You know, I think there's going to be, you know, again, we'll, 314 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,360 we'll get some of the, the, the, the people that are short term 315 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,640 players selling out stocks and you know, it'll be healthy for 316 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,640 gold to have a sell off and, and build a new base and then go to 317 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,800 new highs. So, you know, but I, I think 318 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,920 we're in early innings of a, a major bull market. 319 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,760 Yeah, it it sounds like you're pretty, pretty attuned to just 320 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:41,040 the impact that low float or or tight float can have just in in 321 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:42,920 share price dynamics. I think in, you know, in this 322 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,000 bull market, even even my observations on some of the some 323 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,320 of the stocks that are most volatile to the upside there, 324 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,440 there's absolutely kind of a a low float dynamic to what's 325 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,400 going on. Combine that with with a bit of 326 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,640 retail energy and it doesn't take much to have just yeah, 327 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,960 very outside smooths. That comes back to share 328 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,400 structure again too. And, and that's why it's 329 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,400 important because you want to have a lower float, you want to 330 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,160 have people that are committed longer term, because when you go 331 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,680 to raise money again, remember most of these companies, whether 332 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,840 in Australia or Canada, aren't making any money. 333 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,280 They, they're spending money exploring and developing a 334 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,440 project. So I want to make sure that when 335 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,160 they raise money in the future, that the capital costs are 336 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,400 higher, which is good for me as a shareholder, less dilution. 337 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,040 And, and a lot has to go. You know, we can use an example 338 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,560 of an Australian company later if you want that again, I, I 339 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,920 requested a year hold on the stock, even though it was only, 340 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,960 or you can do a no hold, but not even a four month. 341 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,160 I said, you know, everybody's holding their stock, It's locked 342 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,040 up for a year. It gives the company more room 343 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,920 to run. It gives the company and the 344 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,760 ability to build out their assets and raise capital at 345 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,520 higher prices. So that's why we did that and. 346 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,440 What might that stock be? Kincora Copper, it's actually 347 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,720 dualist and it's in the, it's on your exchange there in Australia 348 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,840 and it's in on the TSTSXV in Canada. 349 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,079 It's a prospect generator which you guys don't have a lot of in 350 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:08,920 Australia. In the United States, we have, 351 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,200 you know, more of those. It's a type of model and and 352 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,400 it's a model that Rick Rule really pioneered 30 years ago 353 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,680 and it increases your odds of success and making a discovery 354 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,160 with less dilution. Dilution is the the enemy of a 355 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:27,920 of a junior trying to make a discovery. 356 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,760 And it's, it's unavoidable when you've got yeah, like a, a small 357 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,800 market cap and a very capital intensive, you know, binary kind 358 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,320 of outcome on, on, on continuing exploration fund. 359 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,280 So the prospect generator model, you try and farm it out to other 360 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,200 parties to spend the exploration and, and you maintain a very, 361 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,960 very low kind of spend at the head code itself. 362 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:59,160 Like why, why is this like this this like a like more prevalent 363 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,000 in in North America than it is in Australia from from your 364 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,760 perspective and. Yeah, I can't answer that 365 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,880 question why you do that, except that maybe Australians like the 366 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,600 the thrill of the chase even more. 367 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,200 I mean, you still get that with a prospect generator. 368 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,440 But the difference is instead of raising money to drill your 369 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,920 property, which you know, again doesn't always go the way you 370 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,040 want it to and can take time, you're like, it's kind of like 371 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,840 you said, you're joint venturing your property out, properties 372 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,040 out to other people. And again, it's all about the 373 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,080 people running the company. Just because you're a prospect 374 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,640 generator model doesn't mean you're executing it properly. 375 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,880 Using Concord as an example again, you know, two of their 376 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,640 projects are, yeah, two of their projects are joint ventured out 377 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,360 to Anglo, a major mining company that's, you know, spending a lot 378 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:42,680 of money on these that you would be a lot of dilution. 379 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,760 But at the end of the day, they're giving up a big piece of 380 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,320 the property if there's a discovery to that joint venture 381 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,840 partner. But being that Concord is 382 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,560 looking for buried copper, gold porcheries, which can take time, 383 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,760 it's great to have someone like Anglo with deep pockets who as a 384 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,480 potential spender and into those projects of, you know, 385 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,840 $90,000,000 or something like that. 386 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,480 And they have several other projects joint ventured out with 387 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,120 other companies. So next year they're going to 388 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,880 see, you know, 345 properties drilled that aren't going to 389 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,480 dilute me as a shareholder. And what's great about Kincora 390 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,520 is that it's also very unique for an Australian listed 391 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,520 company. It's only got about 42,000,000 392 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,360 shares outstanding. We cleaned up the structure, you 393 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,520 know 30% of that's owned by reporting insiders, people on 394 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,520 the board or management. And then like I said, Rick and I 395 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,920 and a number of other North American investors that that 396 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,560 have experience in this space, you know provided a four, $4 397 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,560 million of capital to them to and we put a year hold on our 398 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,320 stock. So you have a float that's, you 399 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,600 know, very tight, you have management and board that's 400 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,400 aligned with a long term goal and you have a lot of drilling 401 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,520 getting done next year that you know, again, there's no 402 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,960 guarantee you're going to find something. 403 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,440 But again, in Concordance case, their technical teams, bar none. 404 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,400 I mean, you're talking about guys discovered Katie, as you're 405 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,400 talking about guys that were high up at New Crest before they 406 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,160 were brought by Newmont. They know your backyard, they're 407 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,120 Australian and they know in the Macquarie arc. 408 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,920 So again, it's a great speculation, but I'm not making 409 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,560 stock recommendations. I don't have a newsletter. 410 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,800 I don't sell anything. I'm a professional investor and. 411 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,600 You know, I tell everybody in interviews that, you know, and I 412 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,160 don't know how this pertains to your Australian markets, but I 413 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,120 see it here in the North American markets that, you know, 414 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:28,920 I try to have a position of, you know, roughly 12 stocks that I 415 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,280 have a large position in. And again, I have other ones 416 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,000 because I know people and I do do financings, but 12 companies 417 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,920 that are my my core holdings and make up a bulk of my money 418 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,760 that's in that space. If you have too few companies, 419 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,560 you know, again, you run the risk of there's still Mother 420 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,840 Nature, there's luck, there's the overall markets. 421 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,560 You know, you're not always in a bull market, so you want to have 422 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,560 enough companies that you have multiple shots to win. 423 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,920 I'm on the other hand, I see so many investors here that I meet 424 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,920 at conferences that asked me to look at their portfolio and 425 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,520 there's 90 stocks in their portfolio that they put it up 426 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,320 for their brokerage firm. Well, if you have a stock go 427 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,280 from $0.15 to $20, that's great. But if you have 90 of those 428 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,920 things, it's not going to affect your portfolio unless you know 429 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,240 again, so, but a bull market does change that. 430 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,520 But I like to follow a model where you don't have too many 431 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,120 stocks so and, and you lower your risk. 432 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:21,760 So I don't know if this is helping you but. 433 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,680 How? How do you spread your bets 434 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,000 amongst those sort of 12 core names across commodities? 435 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,080 Well, again, you know, if you're a, a retailer investor or not a 436 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,520 professional, you want to get good advice from a broker or a a 437 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,000 third party newsletter writer or show like yourselves, you want 438 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,800 to, you know, we've got the Internet now. 439 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,120 My daughter likes to tell me when I try to remember things 440 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:44,880 and forget to lick it up on the Internet. 441 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,520 But you can research a lot of this stuff. 442 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,120 Do your research. And as far as you know, 443 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,000 everybody you know, again, your your natural resource. 444 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,720 Polio should be a slice of your pie. 445 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,920 It's not your whole pie and it's only, it really is for people 446 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,320 that know what they're doing. That's why, again, I'm saying 447 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,120 you shouldn't listen to me per SE. 448 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:03,840 Well, you should do your own research. 449 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,840 But I personally like to have a basket of companies in different 450 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,600 commodities. I like to, you know, I say 25% 451 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,840 and I probably have because I'm a professional, I probably have 452 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,920 16 companies right now. And plus I think we're into a 453 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,760 bull market. But 25% of those are prospect 454 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,200 generators, which are again, are farming out their projects. 455 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,480 And just because something's a prospect generator doesn't make 456 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,800 it a good deal. It's how you format your 457 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,120 projects. Who are your partners? 458 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:29,760 What is the spend on those projects? 459 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,920 So there's, you know, out of probably 50-60 prospect 460 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,400 generators, I know there's six or seven of them that I think 461 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,640 you're making meaningful deals that that increase my odds 462 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,040 because there's more money being spent on those projects. 463 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,520 I also then I then I have the drill hole play. 464 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,600 I still like to be terrified. Then I'd go out and and drill 465 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,240 something and, and you know, and usually it's a brownfields type 466 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,040 project I'm looking for again with a good share structure and 467 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,960 good management that has a past track record of success. 468 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,840 So, you know, again, right now I have 3 or 4 companies that are 469 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,480 looking for copper, gold. I've got a uranium company, I've 470 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,760 got a worth company. I've got, you know, 4-4 or five 471 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,360 prospect generators, probably four. 472 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,440 One of them is not really a prospect generator, Mark, but 473 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,800 that that's My Portfolio. But just because it's My 474 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,960 Portfolio doesn't mean it's the right portfolio for someone 475 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,920 else. Sometimes when the prospect 476 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,400 generated, when things go right, they pivot and they become not a 477 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,960 prospect generator anymore. And yeah, the it's like, you 478 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,800 know, it's about the the discovery that was had. 479 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,280 But when does a prospect? And I actually, I'm sorry, I 480 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:30,560 didn't mean to catch. You that's OK. 481 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,800 Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll let you finish, but I was just going to 482 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,480 add when does a prospect generator go wrong? 483 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,880 To the contrary. Well, I, I, I typically like 484 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,880 what I call the hybrid prospect generator model, which is a 485 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,640 company that's got a number of projects generated out, that's 486 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,880 got companies spending, but they do spend some of their own money 487 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:50,360 exploring their, you know, improving some of their 100% own 488 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,520 properties. And if they are lucky enough to 489 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,040 make discovery, then they focus on that property. 490 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:56,760 But again, I, I like the balance. 491 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,040 I, I, I kind of like the hybrid and Concord is kind of like 492 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,400 that, even though they've got most of their projects available 493 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,200 for joint venture, they have their gold project which they're 494 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,240 keeping 100% and they're going to advance that a little bit 495 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,480 further down the food chain, do some of their own drilling. 496 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,600 You know, and normally a prospect generator does the 497 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,320 early work and, you know, brings the company in to do the 498 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,720 drilling. So in that case, Cancora is a, 499 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,200 you know why I have several companies, Cancora Headwater 500 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,840 gold, that's a prospect generator here in Nevada. 501 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,480 And again, they're joint ventured out Headwater with 502 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,720 Newmont, They've got Oceana gold on other projects. 503 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,840 They've got Sentara as a 9% shareholder, their producer, but 504 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,840 they have several projects that they're going to advance a 505 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,720 little bit further. So Concor and Headwater are two 506 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,560 companies that are hybrid prospect generators. 507 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:48,320 Get the best in both worlds. The the the to kind of like, you 508 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,720 know, peel it, peel it back a little bit when you see when you 509 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,080 see like the market retail enter more liquidity, a lot more 510 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,040 volume in the lower end of town. What are your like? 511 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,320 What are your instincts tell you to kind of lean in or to lean 512 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,520 back, Lean out. Well, right now I I think the 513 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,800 time is to finance companies with good people and good share 514 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,400 structure. I think this thing's got a lot 515 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,800 further to run, although I think there'll be some pretty good 516 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,000 hiccups along the way where people get scared out. 517 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,440 Again, there's a whole different mentality of investing in junior 518 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,520 resource stocks. If you're investing $5000 to 519 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,240 make $10,000 and that's your goal, again, you can do that and 520 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,960 you don't have to follow necessarily shear structure. 521 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,840 It's when you have bigger positions that you're not going 522 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,880 to be able to trade and stuff. So in this market, I think, you 523 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,240 know, it's a speculative market. I think things are going to keep 524 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,200 going higher. You know, some of the stuff I 525 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,160 would never want to own 9% of the company like I do in some of 526 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,360 my companies. You know, doesn't mean they're 527 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:50,200 not going to go up five fold than someone buying $10,000 528 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,520 worth. It just depends on what your 529 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,000 goal is, and I guess you have to figure that out for yourself. 530 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,920 Well, you often, you know, almost always encourage a a 531 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,080 transaction, a corporate outcome. 532 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,360 Is that the easiest way for for you to get at or do you sort of 533 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,000 see plenty of the time you you managed to sell down as the 534 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,440 company just grows into itself? Well, on a bull market you 535 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,760 managed to sell down or you know, there's been bull market. 536 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,280 I mean, I say there hasn't been a bull market for 15 years, but 537 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,200 obviously there was a lithium bull market. 538 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,040 There's been different bull markets in that time. 539 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,640 And commodities, the lithium stocks did really, really well 540 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,400 from, you know, I don't know, up until two years ago. 541 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,960 So four years ago, I guess 4 1/2 years ago, you know, the lithium 542 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,880 stocks boomed. And like we talked about, I 543 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,800 financed a company called Patriot Battery Metals at $0.16. 544 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,080 Later some Australian guys that, you know, came in and financed 545 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,360 it up $0.40. And, and I was also involved in 546 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,960 that financing. But that stock eventually went 547 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,680 to $16.00 on a major discovery with a management team that's 548 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,880 built a lithium company before. And I took profits along the way 549 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,080 because again at $0.16, you know, I think I sold stock at 550 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,320 $2.00 all the way up. But, you know, again, but I was 551 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,760 still selling stock at, you know, 12 and 14. 552 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,280 So yeah, it wasn't a transaction. 553 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,040 It's still, it's a tremendous asset. 554 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,360 Lithium prices came back 90%. So the stock came all the way 555 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,720 back to 250. Now it's starting to move back 556 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,120 up with the lithium prices. And if lithium continues to 557 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,840 improve, it'll probably be a $16.00 stock again. 558 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,000 But, but again, yeah, it's not always a transaction. 559 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,280 And but I'd like to see a transaction because the other 560 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,200 thing I don't like is when guys are good developers or good 561 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,200 exploration geologists try to put something into production 562 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,040 and become mine guys. The transition obviously doesn't 563 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,440 always work. So you, you really play by 564 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,760 these, these kind of rules. Jeff, I'm, I'm curious to hear 565 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,040 if you, if you look back in your career, when did you sort of 566 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,040 land on this kind of model coming out the 90s into that 567 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,480 bull run into to the 2000s? Have you been, you know, playing 568 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,240 by the same sort of script since then? 569 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,320 Or how did it all come about? Well, I think it comes about 570 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,000 over learning over time. I've always tried to, you know, 571 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,440 but you can say this, but I, you guys don't know me, but here in 572 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,600 the North American market, especially in Canada, I have a, 573 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,520 you know, pretty good reputation of following through on what I 574 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,640 say I'm going to do, being a good team player. 575 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,280 And, and again, that's what's important to me. 576 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,680 It's not who makes the most money in the business, it's 577 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,360 having a good reputation and also making money along the way. 578 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:19,880 Obviously that's part of the fun. 579 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,840 But so I've learned from experience, you know, when I 580 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,760 first came in the market, I was 26 years old and it was a bull 581 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,800 market. It was 1994 or something like 582 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,960 that. And I thought I found, you know, 583 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,280 I didn't know why I went to college. 584 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,000 I thought, hey, I don't need to go to college. 585 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,840 Everything I buy double S in three weeks. 586 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,880 I thought I found a broken slot machine. 587 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,520 I didn't realize I was in a bull market. 588 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,320 So I, you know, I learned and I got lucky that, you know, my 589 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,440 partner and I ended up starting an oil and gas company with AI. 590 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,120 Don't know, a $20 million market cap When we took it public and 591 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,240 we sold it 99 for 480 million. There was a lot of luck involved 592 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,480 in that too. So I but again, I I thought it 593 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,480 was a broken slot machine. I didn't know that the resource 594 00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,960 market didn't always act that way. 595 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,000 So what, what, what, what? Was the sort of play there, was 596 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,600 it just sort of picking up a bunch of land and then the the 597 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,720 cycle kind of changed? Or how did it sort of play out 598 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,200 in your favor? The play in my oil and gas 599 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,720 company or the play in the the reversible market? 600 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,000 The oil and gas play well. Well, that was funny that, you 601 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,480 know, we, we were working with a company that was actually one of 602 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,520 the most successful companies listed in, in over time, I think 603 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,200 the stock went from originally $0.75 to $10 back to $0.75 604 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,320 because of all the, you know, I learned that, that a lot of the 605 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,600 people that are big shareholders, even when the 606 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,240 assets were incredible, they sold their stock and, and tried 607 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,560 to joint venture assets out to their own benefit to their other 608 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,800 companies. But eventually that company went 609 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,520 back from 10 to $0.75. The new management came in 610 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,440 because the assets were uncountable and went to $200 a 611 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,000 share. And because of that company, 612 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,080 over a 10 year period, because of that company, we got wind of 613 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,840 another oil and gas plant in Wyoming. 614 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,640 And we were young. I mean, we were 2829 years old. 615 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,120 And we ended up staking as much ground on that hiring land. 616 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,480 And you know, it's a bad episode of a cable, you know, which 617 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,440 staked everything because we realized these two NASDAQ 618 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,360 companies were and we leveraged ourselves to the tilt. 619 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,120 You know, we had so much land. We didn't, you know, you know, 620 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,800 and luckily we brought management in it. 621 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,760 I mean, the board was a bunch of friends and that, you know, 622 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,160 again, we learned through experience, but we brought 623 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,920 management and it would actually run a, a, a NASDAQ public 624 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,200 company and retired. But he'd looked at what we had 625 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,200 and said, this is pretty incredible. 626 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,360 And it was really those guys that 2 1/2 years later were able 627 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,320 to sell the company through development for, for, you know, 628 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,880 $18.00 a share or something. So again, it wasn't total skill, 629 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,160 it was a learning experience at 29 years old. 630 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,600 And at that time I thought, wow, I'm going to retire. 631 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,560 We were the largest shareholders of the company, but again you 632 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,640 get bit by the bug and here I am but 30 years later still doing 633 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:50,760 this. That's awesome. 634 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,240 Jeff, last question for you. What's your your your most your 635 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,000 most controversial view in the resource speculating sector? 636 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,760 My most controversial view? I have a lot of controversial 637 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,480 views. You want me to rank my most 638 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,400 controversial? You can just give me one. 639 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,600 I don't know the people's names would be involved in that, you 640 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,400 know, you know, you know, my most controversial view is if 641 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,560 you're really trying to develop an, a, a, a junior resource 642 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,160 company that you know, and, and you really are that's, you know, 643 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,160 if you're not just playing the, and really this, this hasn't 644 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,000 changed since the gold rush. And I don't know your Australian 645 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,920 history, but the gold rush here in California that built San 646 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,560 Francisco. I mean, you know, Mark Twain has 647 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,360 the famous quote, you know, gold mines, a hole in the ground with 648 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,040 a liar standing over it. What a lot of people don't tell 649 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,000 you is Mark Twain actually sold mining claims before he came up 650 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,760 with that quote and and ended up writing for the newspaper. 651 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,840 But yeah, I mean, the bottom line is the Wild West, this 652 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,520 stuff. So if I my most controversial 653 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,480 view is I think they should go back to the year hold, I think 654 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,800 all the exchanges and say, look, if you're going to get warrant 655 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,800 coverage, you at least have to be able to hold the stock for a 656 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,920 year. I mean, it would take the entire 657 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,840 Mickey Mouse speculation out of it and you'd actually have 658 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,840 people having to make smart decisions. 659 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,240 And the year is really not that long a period of time, 660 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,400 especially when you're getting some sort of warrant coverage. 661 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,760 So that would be very controversial because most 662 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,520 people in the Canadian markets or the Australian markets don't 663 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,960 want to be locked up so. I love it. 664 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,800 That's that's one I think we are very well aligned on. 665 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,320 Jeff, really appreciate you coming on the show sharing how 666 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,960 you think about the markets, how you think about investing in the 667 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,280 junior space. And yeah, thank you for for 668 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,640 sharing that with our audience. Well, I hope this is somewhat 669 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,560 helpful. And again, just to reiterate, 670 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,080 I'm not giving investment advice. 671 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,200 Any companies I mentioned or companies that have a large 672 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,360 shareholder in and I probably consult for you should do your 673 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,440 own due diligence. Look at stuff and and really 674 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,000 soak as much information as you can from shows like yourselves 675 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,520 and realize that you know you're you're at you're investing, is 676 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,720 investing in, in, in earnings and dividends. 677 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,800 This is educated speculation, so make sure you educate yourself. 678 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,640 Beautiful. Thanks so much, Jeff. 679 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,000 Love the way he thinks about markets, about the world almost 680 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,560 as much as I love our partners. Mate, a big thank you to focus 681 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,600 the platform by market tech Sandvik ground support. 682 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,280 I mark the conference is coming up very soon, next week 683 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,560 actually, we're going to be in Sydney, so check that one out. 684 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,680 And last but not least, Intralinks. 685 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,320 Who to root? Who to root? 686 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,240 Now remember, I'm an idiot. JD is an idiot. 687 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,640 If you thought any of this was anything other than 688 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,360 entertainment, you're an idiot and you need to read out a 689 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:37,840 disclaimer.