1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,080 JD, we're so close to Christmas, so close to Christmas, but it 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,760 doesn't mean that the quality of our guests are diminishing 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,200 towards Christmas, They're increasing. 4 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,600 You've found someone very worthy to speak to today. 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,080 But I can't stop thinking about Christmas because Christmas 6 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,880 means time off, means Christmas drinks like we are. 7 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,440 We've got money of mine. Christmas party drinks at 8 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,600 BrewDog in Perth on the 16th of December. 9 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,480 It's a Tuesday. Couple weeks away. 5:00 PM. 10 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,560 If you want to be there, you've got to click the button in the 11 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:26,360 show notes. RSVP. 12 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,160 We've got to have an indication of numbers. 13 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,960 Love to see as many money miners as possible. 14 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,800 There mate, excited to have a beer with everyone. 15 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,360 Very excited and now tell me about the very thoughtful guest 16 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,040 that you've you've found for the money miners today. 17 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,800 Mate, we've got a wicked guest today, Thomas Nadrowski. 18 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,360 So he works out of New York and he runs the Ambass Terradin 19 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,880 Fund. So critical minerals and a real 20 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,760 buzz phrase, isn't it, of light. But he thinks about this stuff 21 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,960 super deeply, also from a geopolitical lens. 22 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,440 And I was fascinated. I've read a lot of the stuff 23 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,960 that he's done over the last little while and the idea of 24 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,760 turning these geopolitical thoughts into, you know, 25 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,880 positions in the market is something kind of you have to be 26 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,760 pretty thoughtful about. It's very pie in the sky type 27 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,200 stuff to think about all this macro stuff. 28 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,480 But actually positioning that is a hard thing to do. 29 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,600 And the funders had magnificent returns since they've started a 30 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,440 bit over a two year track record now and the funders up nearly 31 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,400 200% in those two years. So I was very curious to to 32 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,920 bring him on the show and as you get a flavor from in this 33 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,960 interview, he thinks about these things very deeply, is very 34 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:31,560 knowledgeable on a wide range of things. 35 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:32,960 I'm excited to share the conversation mate. 36 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,400 Super excited to, to, to listen to what Thomas has to say about 37 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,560 a whole host of, of things. So Thomas's fund returns 200% in 38 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,240 two years. Now we love that volatility in 39 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:47,920 the the mining stock universe, JD, but a lot of people who 40 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,360 invest in the mining stock universe, they don't like the 41 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,160 downside of that volatility. And there are other options for 42 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,360 for people out there. Exceed Capital is a group you 43 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,040 should check out Mate Commercial Property Management Group based 44 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,200 out of Brisbane, a bit over a 10 year track record at what they 45 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,120 do. And one of the reasons we like 46 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,560 these guys, Mate, is that they build alignment into everything 47 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,240 they do. So when you're getting on board 48 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,520 with them and you're looking at investing in their trusts, 49 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,560 you're investing alongside the management team there, which is 50 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,360 super important to us. We love alignment. 51 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,520 JD over $400 million in AUM now their flagship collective fund 52 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,840 mate, that's that's that's produced consistent cash returns 53 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,960 of of 8% and that's without a capital gain. 54 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,000 Their own internal rate of return is 20% plus. 55 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,320 And yeah, I think this is a a thoughtful A thoughtful way for 56 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280 for people who are just trying to have a bit of diversity in 57 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,040 their portfolios. We love mining stocks but my God 58 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,640 mate, the the good times are great, the bad times are not so 59 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,120 great. Absolutely, to break it down 60 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,360 once, they're easier for people wondering what the hell property 61 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,720 is if you're so used to your mining stocks, we're talking 62 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,440 about an open-ended diversified fund investing in commercial 63 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,640 assets. Think shopping centres and these 64 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:56,840 sorts of things. They spread these bets across 65 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,320 sectors and across geographies, with distributions paid out 66 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,040 monthly. So if you need to mix up your 67 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,280 portfolio from specky mining bets, check out what Exceed 68 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,520 Capital does in the show notes. Indeed, thank you for partnering 69 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:10,800 with money. Mine exceed capital. 70 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,480 All right mate, let's let's go to the interview. 71 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,800 All righty. Thomas Nadrowski, hope I'm 72 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,080 saying that last name, right. It's a it's a pleasure to have 73 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:22,800 you on. We're very excited to chat about 74 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,040 geopolitics, commodities, critical minerals and everything 75 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,040 happening in our wider world. Thank you for joining us, mate. 76 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,320 Thank you, Janice. Travis, thanks for having me. 77 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,040 You, you think about the world very, very interestingly, 78 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,440 Thomas. So I want to kind of start the 79 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,480 conversation understanding about your kind of framework for 80 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,720 thinking about geopolitics and kind of most importantly, how 81 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,160 you actually translate that geopolitical thinking into 82 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,440 critical minerals investments. All right. 83 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,400 So these are two very different questions. 84 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:00,000 Let me start with with the second and I just walk back into 85 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,080 the geopolitics and mining in general. 86 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,400 I run a fund called Amvest Teradin Critical Minerals Fund 87 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,440 here in New York City, which focuses on is the name such as 88 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,080 Critical Minerals, the name itself, Amvest that relates to a 89 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,040 broker dealer firm that's related to this business. 90 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:24,000 Teradan stands for Terra Earth in Latin and Dan means 91 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,440 electricity in Japanese or Dian in Chinese. 92 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,720 So the idea is electricity drawn from the ground. 93 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,040 So that was the original idea to focus on those critical minerals 94 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,800 that are important for energy addition rather than transition. 95 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,920 But then it goes way beyond battery metals because anything 96 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,640 else, transducers, actuators, electric motors, magnets, that 97 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,560 relates to electric fields and magnetic fields and we need to 98 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,200 mine the materials for that. So that was the first idea a 99 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,080 couple of years ago during COVID. 100 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,160 What happened then is that in 2020, China came up with a new 101 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,080 legislation called Export Control Law. 102 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,640 And I read that and I thought, well, all this means that the 103 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,120 world will bifurcate. And unfortunately, five years 104 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,440 on, I was right. Unfortunately for everybody 105 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,120 else, fortunately for the fund, which is just at the spectacular 106 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,520 year, we are banking on that bifurcation because of what was 107 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,920 in that legislation. And ever since we've seen a lot 108 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,520 of restrictions, which really peaked this year. 109 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,040 Some people associate this with a broader trade war. 110 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,520 In my view is a little different. 111 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,960 While this is something that I had been cooking for many, many 112 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,120 years, probably 15 years if we go back to the first 113 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:46,680 geopolitical clash over Earth between Japan and and China, but 114 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,680 maybe even longer if I look at some of the other policies that 115 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,360 China had introduced way back late 90s, early 2000s. 116 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,760 So the idea was we're going to do a fund that completely 117 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,880 bypasses the Chinese value chain. 118 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,800 Not that easy, right? If you're in mining, especially 119 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,120 if you've been in mining the last 2025 years. 120 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,080 But that was the ambition, no Chinese equity, no Chinese debt, 121 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,680 no securities, no technology if possible, no offtake or at least 122 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,960 majority of the product would not be destined for China. 123 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:25,120 And so that was that was the original idea. 124 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,720 Now coming back to your first question, which is a broader 125 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,640 question about geopolitics and mining. 126 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:34,640 Well, I've been in this business for 1/4 of century now, 127 00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:38,440 unfortunately. And of course geology matters 128 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,760 first. And I remember when I was giving 129 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,960 that portfolio in a, in a, in a large organization which had 130 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,440 many different other industries, I noticed one thing is in other 131 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,000 sectors you can just take the factory and go somewhere else. 132 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,160 And of course we are very much location bound in mining more 133 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,600 than anywhere else. So that's the geology part of 134 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,680 this, but the geology part of this is only underground. 135 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:09,640 And as we know, complications start above ground for a variety 136 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,240 of reasons. Security of 10 year, you know, 137 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:17,160 security of cash flows, strategic flows, acts of God and 138 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,880 so on. And that would not be related to 139 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,400 geopolitics if we could just mine something and sell on the 140 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,360 spot, just like agriculture historically, right? 141 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,800 You produce something and you sell in the local market. 142 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,480 Mining is not like that if you just bracket out like the first 143 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,040 Bronze Age. It started in Mesopotamia and 144 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,560 Indus Valley because you could find both copper and tin in the 145 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,600 same place. But everything else required 146 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,960 long distance trade. So mankind actually owes to 147 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,480 mining long distance trading already in a in a Roman Empire 148 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,120 or ancient China, it was difficult to find tin and copper 149 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,320 in the same place to make bronze. 150 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:08,880 And so you are always exposed to geography to move this stuff. 151 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,680 And if you're exposed to geography, you're also exposed 152 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,600 to power and power play and that it's important how it plays out. 153 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,040 And of course, different regions have different solutions to 154 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:21,640 this. It's really fascinating to read 155 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,520 about how mining evolved in different parts of the world and 156 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,960 what we know about it and must know about Europe and and 157 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,760 mainland Asia. Looking far back and who 158 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,480 controlled the flows, whether it's the miner who controlled 159 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,080 the flows or who controlled the mine in the 1st place, that also 160 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,679 changed and, and the local markets and the distant markets 161 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,320 and transportation and security over the transportation and the 162 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,840 development of a contract law, lack of the such a development 163 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,960 and what it meant. And then it brings us to the 164 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:01,800 present day and I think we slowly are recognizing that we 165 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,840 are no longer in the world in which we all grew up, myself 166 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,240 here close to Wall Street in Manhattan and other people 167 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,760 active in this business and many others where we were in a 168 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,320 context of competition. I think the social operating 169 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,960 system is changing from competition to conflict. 170 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,880 And This is why if you ask someone to define what critical 171 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,320 minerals are, you know, people will tell you all because it's 172 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,120 for economic security or energy security or national security. 173 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,480 And the moment you have this term security, of course, we're 174 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,400 not talking about greed and competition or increasing the 175 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,200 pie. We're talking about conflict and 176 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,480 how we can protect ourselves against conflict. 177 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,800 So that's sort of a broader canvas, but it's an important 178 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,720 one because I think it's finally surfaced this year and we 179 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,480 haven't seen the last shot yet in this in this battle. 180 00:09:57,560 --> 00:10:00,160 I think it's so, so clear to anyone listening how, how deeply 181 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,480 you're going to think about things already from that laying 182 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,960 of the land. I'm very curious about the, the 183 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,400 piece of legislation you mentioned, Thomas, about five 184 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,600 years ago, which kind of triggered in your mind what was 185 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,280 what was going to happen? We've seen countless bits of 186 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,440 legislation across, in particular in the Western world, 187 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,440 which don't really lead to an awful lot of change. 188 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,200 Why? Why was this thing the 189 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,840 instigator in in your mind you need to set up the fund and it 190 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,840 actually led to change in in the world. 191 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:32,680 It was so first, because already at that time China controlled 192 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,440 most of the refining and processing of these materials 193 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,640 and much of the mining. So it was important because it 194 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,920 also had, there was a precedent in 2010 of China weaponizing and 195 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,120 trying to weaponize where Earth flows to Japan. 196 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,080 I'm saying trying because actually delve into the data how 197 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,000 it all happened, it was not extremely successful. 198 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,560 It was a lot of smuggling out of China at that time, which 199 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:01,080 eventually led to dampening of the prices. 200 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:07,240 But the the Chinese government, especially the current 201 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,720 government. So since 20/12/2013 was when 202 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,800 there was a, a plenum, an important third plenum of the 203 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,600 Central Committee that decided to bring the state owned 204 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,600 enterprises to the forefront again. 205 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,520 And since then, two attempts to consolidate rare earth business 206 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:34,800 into conglomerates, 3 companies now dominating this space down 207 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,320 from, you know, countless dozens, hundreds in the late 208 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,200 90s, early 2000s. So that consolidation was 209 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,600 definitely a factor. You don't see that sort of 210 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,080 government activity anywhere else in the world. 211 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,480 But what's really important about that piece of legislation 212 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,600 is that that had a very, very clear national security 213 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,880 component and to enforce expert control law. 214 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,320 The the bodies that were itemized there were State 215 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:10,520 Council, which is the highest government entity in China, and 216 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,680 China Military Commission, CMC, which gives you an idea. 217 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,280 OK, well, there's a military extension to this. 218 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,800 So it's a serious matter. And you know, you can weaponize 219 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,480 commodity flows in two ways. One is market access. 220 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,960 And of course, Australia learned it the hard way after asking for 221 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,480 more clarity about the COVID sources when China refused to 222 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,280 buy coal from Australia. So that's one way to do this. 223 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:40,760 And the second way to do this, of course to weaponize the 224 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:49,120 flows, I mean, Russia sort of fine-tuned that with gas sold to 225 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,120 Europe and differential prices, differential quantities, 226 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,160 differential stockpiling or inventories that it's managed in 227 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,920 countries that were that were buying gas, natural gas from, 228 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,440 from from Moscow all the way up to the Ukrainian war. 229 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:10,960 So we have track record of using commodity flows this way, both 230 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,840 in terms of access on the demand side and in terms of supply. 231 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,560 Now this doesn't mean that we know exactly what the end game 232 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,720 here is. We don't all we're banking on. 233 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,320 And then our strategy is to benefit from the scarcity value 234 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:35,120 because whenever China imposes restrictions, there's a glut of 235 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,240 the product in China. And therefore it's not a very 236 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,160 smart idea to invest in those companies. 237 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,960 We need to focus on those that were trying to rebuild the value 238 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,080 chain in the West. And it's a it's a difficult 239 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,400 undertaking. And unfortunately it doesn't 240 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,000 seem like all the governments are really understanding Western 241 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,160 governments how to do this, because it cannot be just done 242 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,640 at the mind gate. It has to be really thoroughly 243 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,120 thought through in terms of what the different pieces in the 244 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,840 value chain are and what is missing and what needs public 245 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,000 money. But public mining itself was not 246 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,360 going to solve that problem. There's a there's there's a much 247 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:20,040 bigger task here had and I'm just afraid that the suspension 248 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,200 of the four out of 23 restrictions that we are seeing 249 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,920 since the agreement between the US and China and Pusan last 250 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,000 month, two months almost late October. 251 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,960 That suspension is valid only for 12 months and it is 252 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,600 conditional and we haven't seen the final agreement yet in 253 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,360 writing. So I would think that we might 254 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,120 not have the time to really build the beautiful value chain. 255 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,760 And we have to just, you know, learn as we as as we go along 256 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,920 and just identify the best projects and the projects that 257 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,960 are closest to cash and not something that's very on excise. 258 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:06,560 And you know, looking at 20332040, we're not sure we are 259 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,320 in charge of the calendar here. How do you, how do you get 260 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,560 comfortable with the, the investment thesis in, in some of 261 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,680 these, these, these, you know, future producers or producers 262 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,920 of, of critical minerals? When, when some of the policy 263 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:26,120 seems like it will lead to an oversupply of certain critical 264 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,600 minerals, like a decade long oversupply in some, in some 265 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,920 respects, especially if if there's, you know, no, no 266 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,360 ability to actually sell into China. 267 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,800 If if the demand isn't isn't there in the West or it's going 268 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,960 to take much longer. Like how do you get comfortable 269 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,520 with the investment case? Yeah. 270 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,280 So this is, this is a good point. 271 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,080 Will there be enough demand and especially in the civilian 272 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,680 market because people panic mostly about the military, which 273 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,080 is just a small chunk unless you move your economy into a sort of 274 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,720 a war footing, which is not the case. 275 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,240 In general, what we believe in most of these markets, and you 276 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,040 know, these are relatively small markets, we won't see, you know, 277 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,160 the 30 rare earth companies or the OR the 25 tungsten companies 278 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:17,520 or the 12 antimony companies being successful and generating 279 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,080 value. What we'll probably see in each 280 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,440 of those sectors is something like an oligopolistic structure 281 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,920 that is, you know, the first 3 or 4 that we'll get for the 282 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,560 finishing line that will probably capture most of the 283 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,560 price. And then hopefully we'll be able 284 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,360 to consolidate the space, which is something that's actually not 285 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,240 happening in our Earth right now yet. 286 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,600 Maybe it will start. We'll have to. 287 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,440 So, you know, one of the things about the positioning in the 288 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,400 fund is that we want to be as close to cash as possible, 289 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,920 especially at a relatively high interest rates environment. 290 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,400 You're penalized for a long duration to cash, so you cannot 291 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,280 be overexposed to you know early stage exploration. 292 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,000 I mean yes, there are some spectacular projects out there, 293 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,800 but it cannot be just the core of the of the portfolio. 294 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,000 And that also means that we started looking at some of the 295 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,960 processing place both in the West and Japan to look at, you 296 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,359 know, how can we get closer to the actual production. 297 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,080 That also, of course, is due to the fact that many of the 298 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,920 products are not mined per SE. But there are just those, you 299 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,800 know, remoras that that function alongside larger, larger 300 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,280 products that are mined and until recently were mined and 301 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,600 sold to China. China then would extract them 302 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,400 like gallium at home from from Australian bauxite. 303 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,520 Now we need the gallium on the western side of the divide as we 304 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:58,480 need many other byproducts of larger of larger reducer. 305 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,360 So, you know, suddenly it's interesting to look at zinc 306 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,960 smelter, so aluminum refineries and so on, or even copper 307 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,920 smelters, electrolytic copper for specific minor metals. 308 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:16,720 But you're right. I think the, the, the probably 309 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,120 the number one lesson that I can draw from the last two years is 310 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:26,200 that the mentality of exploration and development 311 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,440 companies, management has to change. 312 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,840 It's just not enough at least in this space to go out there and 313 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,640 drill couple of holes and say, OK, well that's fantastic. 314 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:42,520 Hey, market, look at that. The management has to think in 315 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,160 terms of the value chain we're building because you cannot sell 316 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,200 this stuff to China anymore or or you can if the Chinese 317 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:56,400 company buys you like Shanghai, but for rare earths, you cannot 318 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,920 really sell to China anymore. That's by the Chinese regulation 319 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,160 from February of this year. So they want to control both the 320 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,120 flows in and out and facilitate the, you know, acquisitions by 321 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,040 their agent of influence, Shanghai resources. 322 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:21,800 But overall, it means that if you are developing a perspective 323 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,520 deposit, you have to think about what exactly you're going to 324 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,600 sell. So in rare earths, it's going to 325 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,320 be concentrate, mixed carbonate, mixed oxide, and maybe you're 326 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,320 going to separate it somewhere. And if so, were who's going to 327 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,800 be the client? That has to come much sooner 328 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,520 than it used to come before in this sort of globalized era 329 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,360 where everybody could just basically dig something and sell 330 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,360 to China. Mostly, I think for these 331 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,200 materials which are of such critical importance for the West 332 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,840 to rebuild those value chains, those days are over. 333 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,760 So we tend to look at, OK, so how does this fit with whatever 334 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,560 we know? Let's just to use the rare earth 335 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,840 example, whatever, you know, about 5 sixth potential 336 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,360 separation plants around the world in addition to the 337 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:10,640 Malaysian and the Estonian one that exists right now. 338 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,240 And you know, does it fit those plants? 339 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:15,560 Does the management think about it? 340 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,080 Do they know exactly what that plant needs? 341 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:23,240 Because in fact, in some of these markets, the incentive 342 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,360 should come from that middle of the value chain that should send 343 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:29,680 a signal to the market that's exactly what we need, that's 344 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,680 what we want and please find us this or invest in a way that we 345 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,760 can have a material that's ready for our plant. 346 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,000 That's what should happen. I don't see the ad sort of on a 347 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,400 global scale, but there are a couple of companies that are 348 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,760 thinking systemically about it. Well, it makes me think of peak 349 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,800 rare earths. And you mentioned Shanghai there 350 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,480 there before. And I know when we spoke about 351 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,080 this earlier, Thomas, this was something kind of on your mind. 352 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,960 So I'm curious for you to kind of lay out exactly what you kind 353 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,600 of learnt along the process of this transaction with the 354 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,520 Chinese ultimately taking control of the asset in in 355 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:11,280 Tanzania? A couple of couple of different 356 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:21,840 handles on that. So the the model in which junior 357 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,360 explorers could benefit from the circled Chinese acquisition help 358 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:32,520 premium functioned pretty well in the late twenty 10s all the 359 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,920 way until 2022. That affects both the Australian 360 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,640 and Canadian market. The last transaction of this 361 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:50,480 sort until peak was consummated on February 5th, 2022 when Neo 362 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:57,920 Metals, the company that Neo lithium sorry company that owned 363 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,040 a very prospective lithium project in South America called 364 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,680 Tres Cabratas, was taken over by a Chinese entity. 365 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:14,160 And on the same day, Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin signed No 366 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,440 Limits Partnership. And three weeks later, Canadian 367 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,640 government updated its Investment Canada Act that 368 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,280 tightened the rules and regulations regarding the 369 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,320 putative sales of Canadian controlled assets to Chinese 370 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,880 entities. Basically, the change meant that 371 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,640 any Chinese entity was not considered state owned. 372 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,320 That affected not only assets that were controlled by China by 373 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,640 Canadian companies inside Canada, but also those that 374 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,760 those companies controlled outside of Canada. 375 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,640 Ferb in some way seem to be trading in the same direction at 376 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:01,920 the time. 20/22/23 and 23. There was a longer debate about 377 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,960 this at the G7 meeting, plus South Korea, Australia, New 378 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,360 Zealand and Japan. The Japanese were keen and 379 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,920 developing a sort of a broader system for the elite nations, 380 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,320 kind of seeing the writing on the wall. 381 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,200 And Japan, we can come back to this later. 382 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,440 Japan is a country that actually has done its homework much 383 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,280 better than other Western countries. 384 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,800 And I'm using the term W functionally, not geographically 385 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,040 here. And so that didn't go much 386 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,640 further. And of course, we had a change 387 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,520 of administration here that's a little bit of spanner in the 388 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,680 works of some of those multilateral efforts to build a 389 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:51,720 common approach to this, to this problem ex China Peak itself. 390 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,160 Well, the first the company came through a couple of management 391 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,920 changes. So it's difficult to see a 392 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,440 linearity there, but it is true. Then 2022 when Appian was 393 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,960 selling its stake, the management back then struggled 394 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,720 to find a buyer in UK and elsewhere. 395 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,280 And you know, this is where Shanghai stepped in. 396 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:18,160 Since then I'm aware of discussions, maybe that's not 397 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,920 public at different levels, sort of trying to figure out how to 398 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,840 stop the creep. Giving that obviously Shanghai 399 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:34,360 is the chosen agent by the government in China to acquire 400 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:38,400 stakes in foreign entities. I mean, they still own the stake 401 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,680 and meet empty materials in US as well as others in Vietnam, 402 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,480 Tanzania from another Australian junior in Australia proper. 403 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,000 They tried also to get access to a material from Canada 404 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,320 unsuccessfully. The company hasn't had much 405 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,840 success. I'd say CNMC and NFC, it's it's 406 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,560 foreign arm have had a little more success in Madagascar in 407 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,280 Brazil last year. So Shanghai is not the only rare 408 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,640 earth player. But I am surprised that there 409 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,640 was not more effort, at least from what we know in the public 410 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,760 sphere from Ferb to block this. Just that it around the time 411 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:28,440 where, you know, high level preparations were taking place 412 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:35,080 for Australia US mineral deal, which I think was signed in 413 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,800 early October was it? So it is, it is a bit 414 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,680 surprising. Now there's an initial layer to 415 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:48,200 this is the Tanzania has a has a bit of a political problem right 416 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,200 now. This is not new. 417 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,400 We saw it under the previous president who passed away during 418 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,800 the COVID pandemics. It seemed originally that under 419 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,600 sort of Hassan things would kind of quiet down. 420 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,160 The most recent election was mismanaged. 421 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,480 And I just spoke to another leader, an executive, another 422 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,080 company with assets in Tanzania. We don't know which way it goes 423 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,320 and what's going to happen to the to the licenses. 424 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,560 However, it does seem that China with a massive investment to 425 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,280 upgrade Tazara rail line in Tanzania will have pretty good 426 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,360 access to the government. And therefore with the structure 427 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:34,280 of the ownership prior to this final takeover, maybe from the 428 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,880 Tanzanian side, it would have been difficult to engineer 429 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,840 something else from the sellers. It is still surprising because 430 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,400 the the offer from the Florida unit was slightly higher, maybe 431 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,280 should have been much higher. And this is an entity with some 432 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,760 high profile, you know, ex politician participation in the 433 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,000 United States. So you would have thought that 434 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,200 there is a sufficient political support for that for that 435 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,280 counter bit. It wasn't really seriously taken 436 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,360 into consideration by peak. So very disappointing. 437 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,600 It is a, it is a decent asset. It's an asset that's closer to 438 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,320 production than any others, has an interesting breakdown in 439 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:16,720 terms of the rare earth elements. 440 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,760 We always have to look at that. And therefore I think it's a big 441 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:27,120 loss for, for the Western world. And I, I, I think I would 442 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:32,760 probably ascribe it to lack of coordination at the 443 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,600 intergovernmental level, more than just naivete of the of, of, 444 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,160 of the management who couldn't find alternative sources of 445 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,120 demand for that. But the issue didn't start this 446 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:47,800 year. It's probably three years ago 447 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,800 when the thing was was lost. Trevor, we're talking about some 448 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,440 pretty gnarly problems. China has managed to pull ahead 449 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,120 on a lot of its engineering know how, and it's a bit of a 450 00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:58,600 challenge here. I mean, you know, people are 451 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,200 critical of the West's engineering capability, but I 452 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,200 think there's a solution. There is my because we actually 453 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,320 have some wonderful engineers here, here in Perth. 454 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,240 In fact, I know of a whole team of them mate and they are called 455 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,280 Switch Technologies. If you've got an idea and it 456 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,120 needs an engineering solution, the the limits of physics are 457 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,720 the only limits for Switch Technologies because they will 458 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,720 engineer it into reality. Doesn't matter how hard the 459 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,040 problem, they come up with an engineering solution. 460 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,200 You know, I love these guys mate. 461 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,960 They focus on reducing costs and improving efficiency. 462 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,000 Very simple. Everyone can wrap their head 463 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,520 around it and everyone wants it. If you've got a problem at your 464 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,080 mind site, you need it fixed. You don't have the bandwidth, 465 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,240 you don't have the time, you might not have the capability 466 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,920 within your team get switched to look after it for you. 467 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,960 There's a, there's always a commercial case for these 468 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,600 engineering solutions and you can think of one that kind of 469 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,040 comes to mind, the retrofitted like cat trucks with these 470 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,240 hybrid, hybrid retrofits. Very impressive. 471 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,160 Wouldn't have thought of it efficiency, say savings there. 472 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,600 And they started out with with the, the hybrid retrofit on a 473 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,160 Land Cruiser and then made it work on it on a cat truck. 474 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,160 Super impressive stuff. Yeah, and they can do more as 475 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,880 well. They have completely designed, 476 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,240 engineered and built a off grid electric truck charging depot as 477 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,480 well. So a whole bunch of different 478 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,000 problems that they can solve, be it mechanical, be it electrical, 479 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,720 be it software engineering capability that you need. 480 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,640 So if you're after a completely integrated solution from concept 481 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,960 to deployment, I reckon you should consider Switch 482 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,160 Technologies, Matt. Pitch your idea to switch, go 483 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,720 switch technologies, go switch. Totally. 484 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,680 The transaction slipped under the radar was not info like in 485 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,320 focus at all with the business publications in in Australia and 486 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,840 it just before you knew it, it had completed and and. 487 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,240 You're you're referring to the Appian Appian sale? 488 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,840 No, no, no. The yeah, Shanghai's acquisition 489 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,120 of of of peak, Yeah, it, it was, it was honestly just a, a deal 490 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,960 that really flew under the radar, made probably 491 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,760 intentionally as a strategy to to see it complete from all the 492 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,640 people who incentivized to to see that transaction like, you 493 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,520 know. Well, maybe, maybe that's, you 494 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,440 know, maybe that's the management's fault, maybe they 495 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,120 didn't do their the job properly. 496 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,160 I don't know. I don't know. 497 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,840 We're not close to that story enough to know. 498 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,160 In some respects, what is management's duty though? 499 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,920 Their duty is to maximize value for for shareholders. 500 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,360 And in Pig's case, where's the other buyer If if they're blocks 501 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,080 it, what's the alternative, right? 502 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:19,960 It's complicated, but there was another buyer. 503 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,360 There was another. Buyer, you're, you're correct, 504 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:23,480 Sorry. You're correct. 505 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:24,920 Yeah. There was another buyer with 506 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,920 about 4042 or 45,000,000 premium compared to the Chinese offer. 507 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,640 That's right. And that was dismissed, which is 508 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,200 really raising a question mark of why that was the case. 509 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,080 Shareholders got an uplift though from from Shanghai from 510 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,640 from memory. But yeah, you're right, I forgot 511 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:39,880 about that. There was that consortium, I 512 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,400 think was the funding kind of like the entity well known and 513 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,040 the funding kind of concrete. There was probably some 514 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,600 conditionality risk to that. But yeah, I. 515 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,720 Well, like I heard that there was a break fee, but if I looked 516 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,280 at it, the break fee was minimal, you know, by 517 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,280 comparison. So I don't, I, I really don't 518 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,480 know. I think, I think it was an 519 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,200 assumption that Shanghai would just, you know, run away with 520 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,920 this. You know, at the, at the 521 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,560 corporate level, it's not a huge loss. 522 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,800 There are some other interesting projects out there that are 523 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,680 either potentially in Western or Japanese control going forward. 524 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,760 It's a shame, however, that there's so much strategic 525 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,920 mismanagement in terms of thinking for that, because 526 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,160 you're right about shareholder value and the governments have 527 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,600 to factor that in, right? It's not just about the 528 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,120 blocking. That's what what you offer in 529 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,320 exchange, but it's, it's still in terms of how advanced this 530 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,000 project is, it's a it's a shame that it happened this way. 531 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,520 So if we then kind of zoom out and think about what the 532 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,240 government has done, particularly this year, Thomas, 533 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,240 like MP materialism and the deal that was structured with the 534 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760 government there is, is the big one. 535 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,760 I'm, I'm super curious to hear how your, your kind of approach 536 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,440 to investing in the space has changed following that deal. 537 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,760 Was, was that kind of as significant as we interpreted it 538 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,480 to be here? And like just that the way in 539 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,080 which we think about how the the government is going to get 540 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,120 behind particularly assets that are domiciled within the United 541 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,960 States. Yeah. 542 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,480 So this is where this administration started, started 543 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,600 by looking at the domestic potential. 544 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,240 And I think I have to give them credit that it took them only 545 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,640 what, 8 months to learn that it's insufficient. 546 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,280 Too bad that they didn't know about it before. 547 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,240 But of course, the, you know, the deal with Australia and I 548 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,480 can count Brazil, Argentina, Malaysia, Cambodia and Japan, 549 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,520 Kazakhstan. I mean, there's just every every 550 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,000 bilateral meeting, Saudi Arabia, every bilateral meeting that the 551 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,760 administration has is going to be about critical minerals these 552 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,920 days. So it's not just domestic 553 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,200 resources and we know it. And and of course, you know, 554 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,800 Australian investors know it too, because there are some high 555 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,800 profile Australian cases that are stuck in the courtroom in 556 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,640 the United States. Takes forever to get things off 557 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,840 the ground on that particular deal. 558 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,280 There are a lot of lot of levers. 559 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,400 There are a lot of lot of pieces. 560 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,640 Not all of these make sense. This is not a company that 561 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,320 controls an asset with heavy rare earths, which is exactly 562 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,520 what's what's needed right now. A company with several holes in 563 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,120 the value chain still unresolved. 564 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,000 However, it would really matter it and we're you know, it's 565 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,760 symptomatic that you mentioned that it it had, you know, sent 566 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,160 some ripples through the Australian marketplace was the 567 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,800 floor price, the floor price, the floor price under neodymium, 568 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,720 preziodymium index, let's say it anyway, this is not an index. 569 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,960 It's not like Rotterdam warehouses where we have this 570 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,160 sort of first inkling of the non Chinese prices. 571 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,040 But this is a signal from the government and it's an important 572 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,800 one. And of course that price still 573 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,520 means very little for empty materials, at least did for the 574 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,840 third quarter calendar of this year. 575 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,360 But it means a lot for the market. 576 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,199 Why is that? Because the Chinese price is 577 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,639 irrelevant. It's relevant not because of 578 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,760 some machinations of the Chinese government's, because of the 579 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,880 structure of the Chinese demand, domestic demand, which is much 580 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,400 more elastic than the Western demand. 581 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,199 The Western demand is very inelastic and we are confronted 582 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:32,800 of this in many minerals where the Chinese producers cuff up 583 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:38,920 product at benthic abysmal demersal level prices. 584 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,080 This is possible only if you have segmented markets from 585 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:44,920 macroeconomics and that's what happens. 586 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,280 That's what happens in graphite, that's what happens in cobalt, 587 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,120 that's what happens in in rare earths. 588 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,159 So why would let's assume for a moment that there is competition 589 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,920 among players for the in the domestic market in in China. 590 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,560 It's because of that demand curve that's so different. 591 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,960 Why would that price be applied to the Western market? 592 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,280 The only reason it does is because there is no volume to 593 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:11,800 determine the prices in the West. 594 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:15,960 Now there is an effort now to start building volumes and you 595 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,040 know there are different ways to do it and not all ideas are 596 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,960 good. I mean, the other day a, an 597 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,320 executive of a very prominent lithium company in North America 598 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,200 suggested that an equivalent floor price for lithium 599 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,840 carbonate would be based on cost plus basis. 600 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,440 I mean, this is the worst idea. I can I, I, I can imagine, 601 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,000 right, For any business to have a cost plus guaranteed. 602 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,680 That's, that's what destroyed defense industry in this 603 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,240 country, unfortunately. So that's not what should 604 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:50,600 happen. Maybe maximum guarantee price, 605 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,680 some kind of a ceiling and transfer pricing to, to, to 606 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,400 share the risk as the value chain is being rebuilt. 607 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,440 Or maybe floor and ceiling and slowly you just expand it as as 608 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,720 as you go forward and companies can take more risk, but not cost 609 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:07,320 plus. So there is, I think still sort 610 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,080 of testing. I know how this new market in 611 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,640 the West would function, what it would mean to have a price that 612 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,840 actually incentivizes the production because the Chinese 613 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,520 prices doesn't incentivize not so much production per SE, but 614 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,360 capital spending, of course, because that's that has been 615 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,000 tested by, you know, Chinese monopolies and many other 616 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,920 sectors. And you know, steel and, and 617 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:38,520 pharmaceuticals and, and chemicals and so on, of course, 618 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,120 and, and minerals as well. There's this, there's this gap 619 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,880 between what the capital intensity is and what the 620 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,040 operating costs are. So once you have lost your 621 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,600 capacity to build something and to produce something, it's very 622 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,080 difficult to bring capital back. That's not just the problem of 623 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,800 policy making. It's because of the capital 624 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,600 retreat from the space. And I'm speaking here as an 625 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,280 American, you know, mining is just so peripheral here and then 626 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,680 critical minerals are periphery of the periphery. 627 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,000 So there is a real problem with the capital market just not 628 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:14,840 simply picking up the, the, the opportunity, but that's probably 629 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,520 because there's no incentive. And that's, that brings me to a 630 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:25,360 different issue about about the pre production cost of capital 631 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:31,160 in in this space, because as we all know, that relies heavily on 632 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,200 equity and mostly public equity and public equity for you know, 633 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,200 75% of companies around the world either in Sydney or in 634 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,000 Toronto. Why is that? 635 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,480 And then I'm asking this because this is conclusion in the book 636 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,640 that I just written about it entitled Mineral War. 637 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,280 Why is that that there is no incentive for 40 trillion worth 638 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,080 of capital market in the United States to invest in companies 639 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,040 that are developing these critical minerals critical for 640 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,480 national security also of the United States in the countries 641 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,080 such as Australia, Canada and the UK, which by American law 642 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,960 are Title 3 Defense Production Act countries. 643 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,000 What does it mean? It means that anything produced 644 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,720 in Australia, Canada, UK counts as domestic source for U.S. 645 00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:19,240 economic and national security. And yet there is no tax 646 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:25,440 incentive for U.S. equity funds to invest in those places, which 647 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:26,880 would be a wonderful thing to have. 648 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,720 Because just imagine that for a for a moment that a couple of, 649 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,920 you know, hundreds of billions of dollars are landing in the 650 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,400 sectors instead of all these companies diluting themselves 651 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,920 for three or four years between one spike in the market, another 652 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,400 spike in the market like this one we have this year. 653 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,880 So we're less concerned about it now. 654 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,720 But overall, the cost of equity of these companies are way too 655 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,520 high, especially if they have to compete against state owned or 656 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,480 state backed enterprises, you know, in Africa or South America 657 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,440 or elsewhere. And yet this is not happening 658 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,320 yet. So hopefully, you know when my 659 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,640 book will be out in January, people will start discussing it. 660 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,320 That's my big hope. If, if, if, if, if the juniors 661 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,320 in in Australia got access to that capital, there'd be a lot 662 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,560 more fancy steak dinners in Perth every night, mate, 663 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,680 there's. I don't know, maybe some good at 664 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,440 the back of it too. There'd be some good, the cost 665 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,000 of capital. Absolutely, yeah. 666 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:26,360 Lowers I, I, I do, I do think a fair bit about the, the, the 667 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,200 weird kind of geographical dispersion of where capital kind 668 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,400 of has just, has just formed. But it's like it's a network 669 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,640 effect of the, the cities in which have become, you know, 670 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,600 natural resource fundraising cities in many ways. 671 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,680 You've got the whole the whole build out of that ecosystem. 672 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,480 Tax incentive seems like a strategy to make a big 673 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,120 difference in attracting different sorts of. 674 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,240 Capital, but you know, there's going to, we're going to do a 675 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:49,960 lot of a lot of convincing because for now the opposite is 676 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,480 happening. So this year Canada, which is, 677 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,480 you know, another important source of financing for for 678 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,280 juniors, has already hammered $126 billion in equity funding 679 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,400 going work down South here, mostly Silicon Valley, big tech 680 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,400 companies. That's not great for mining 681 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,440 finance in Canada and I tell you why I'm concerned. 682 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,440 You know, we'll see when mineral war comes out what what, what 683 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,400 the reaction will be, right. But one of the things that 684 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:26,360 happened during this Australia US critical mineral discussion 685 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,080 was that superannuation fund will have easier access to the 686 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,560 US market right now. I'm sure you noticed that. 687 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,440 Well, that's not great because it's only one way We need the US 688 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,560 capital to flow to Australia. It's extremely difficult still 689 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,640 for a retail investor in this country to invest in an 690 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,960 Australian company. It's a lot easier to invest in 691 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,280 the Chinese company, believe it or not. 692 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,960 And actually I got a write off from my taxes if I invest in a 693 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,600 solar panel, even if it's made in China. 694 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,080 So there is a quixotic contradiction here. 695 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:02,400 But the most recent incentives for other countries to invest 696 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:07,520 into Uus, that's from a macroeconomic perspective, it 697 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,440 doesn't make much sense and not for the for the US economy. 698 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,440 And definitely I understand that there is a draw for the big, big 699 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,800 tech companies and so on. But we need to make sure that 700 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,240 capital and large capital is available where the opportunity 701 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:23,960 is. And right now it is, you know, 702 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,880 Sydney, Toronto, lesser extent London. 703 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,120 When when you think about the, you know, the the rest of the 704 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,760 world, putting these Western countries aside that you kind of 705 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,600 mentioned there, you think about Africa, Central Asia, these 706 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,160 sorts of countries where China's belt and Rd. initiative has seen 707 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,520 them just pick up asset after asset for for 10 plus years now. 708 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:50,360 Do you think a lot of those places are kind of lost to to 709 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:51,960 West investors to Western governments? 710 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,280 Or do you, do you have confidence that like you 711 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,640 mentioned where the US administration is going, 712 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,080 Kazakhstan, Saudi, all these sorts of places that they can be 713 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,640 kind of one back in a sense and we can see minerals from those 714 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,200 countries come to come to the West? 715 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,720 I'm not optimistic. Here's why. 716 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:22,400 When I worked at Angler Gold in Johannesburg, this was shortly 717 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,880 after we lost. I mean, probably veterans 718 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,920 remember the contested acquisition over Normandy, 719 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,720 Robert Decrappeni eventually sold it to Franco and and 720 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,920 Newmont. So we lost that that contest and 721 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,400 instead of trying with a South African paper and a discount 722 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:49,000 that was, you know, probably preventing Arbs from sitting on 723 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,200 the, you know, with shorts during a contested acquisition 724 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:58,520 on us, we decided to develop a new strategy, which was let's 725 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:03,800 just go around the world and look at assets and invest in 726 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,880 juniors to replace the South African reserves, which was 727 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,920 oxymoronic in itself. But you know, let's try because 728 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,280 we cannot compete against North American paper for large assets, 729 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,800 attractive assets such as Normandy's. 730 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,880 And so I worked very closely with head of exploration and in 731 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:29,640 that office in downtown Johannesburg, his office was 732 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,760 covered with postcards that he used to send to his secretary 733 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:37,840 from about 60 countries. And soon enough, as I was in 734 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:43,840 charge of risk evaluation for, for, for essential acquisitions, 735 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,400 I went to those sixty countries or 50 or whatever on just every 736 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,520 single continent. If I look at the world map right 737 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:58,000 now, 20 years later, a fraction of these are available, not only 738 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,160 because there is a war in 13 African countries right now, in 739 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,840 13 African countries, there is a, there's a, there's a 740 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:10,560 conflict, kinetic conflict. It's because we have moved away 741 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,880 from globalization simply because the liberal model just 742 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,120 didn't work for those countries. I'm not saying that the new one 743 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,920 will work or whatever that is is a new model, but we're just not 744 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,680 going to invest in places where the Chinese companies go. 745 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:35,360 Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Russia, Belarus, Zimbabwe, 746 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,640 massively. Maybe someone can survive there, 747 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,520 but the Chinese are very dominant and many, many others. 748 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,120 So yes, the world has shrunken. There are a couple of 749 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:46,240 jurisdictions which are contested. 750 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,600 There are always 2 levels. There's the national level. 751 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,600 And let's say in South America right now, there's definitely 752 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,600 sort of a pendulum swinging back from left to right, with the 753 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,520 exception of Brazil on federal level. 754 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:07,240 And so, you know, I don't think Russians and Chinese will 755 00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,240 develop lithium in Bolivia anymore, right? 756 00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:15,040 So Bolivia after 20 years as alliance with socialism is 757 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,040 probably coming back to sort of middle of the road policy 758 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,800 making. Brazil is a is is is a question 759 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:23,920 mark. I don't know what's going to 760 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,080 happen next election there. But then it's a good example so 761 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,080 that you can operate as a junior company or a developer in a 762 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,000 country large enough, like a federal country like Brazil, and 763 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,760 not be too bothered by the, by the federal level. 764 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,640 Because what matters is actually the state and the, and the 765 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,960 locality. And, and, and Brazil has a 766 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,160 couple of localities that are, you know, top notch and operate 767 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,160 much better than many here in the United States. 768 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,160 So you have to be more selective. 769 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,720 And if I was working today and you know, company that deals 770 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,920 with say gold, which is more or less ubiquitous and small, small 771 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,400 quantities in many places, then that map would be, would be much 772 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,320 smaller. Once you start talking about 773 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,360 some of these critical minerals, then it's even smaller than 774 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:11,600 that. It's, I don't expect the world 775 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:17,200 to to go back to the sort of open kumbaya plus competition 776 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:23,120 type of operating system, Not because I wouldn't love to. 777 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,880 I would love to, but we're not necessarily the only people here 778 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,280 with agency. You know, China has agency too, 779 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,160 and it has its own plans. In in a lot of ways, Thomas, 780 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,680 the, the world has has caught up with your world view and you, 781 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,680 you positioned A portfolio accordingly. 782 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:45,280 But with, with policy actions and the like, a lot of the, a 783 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,400 lot of the investment opportunities have have re rated 784 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,080 substantially. Does your positioning change? 785 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,400 Do you, do you just see the theme continuing? 786 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,000 Like do you, is there a point in time where you where you change 787 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,080 the strategy of the fund or the assumptions that we set up from 788 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,560 with? I think we're still in the early 789 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,800 stages of this rebirth and it's a painful rebirth. 790 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,320 And for, you know, every success story, there are two or three 791 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,680 flunkies that are just don't don't really add up. 792 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,280 We are, you know, when, when you think about critical minerals as 793 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:18,840 such, I mean, what makes them critical? 794 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,560 First, of course, structural demand. 795 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,560 And there's a lot of things from the demand side that are 796 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:29,840 happening now, both in terms of on, on the energy side and on 797 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,640 the, on the construction hardware that we need to develop 798 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,760 to just live up to the, to the demands of AI and new 799 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,400 technologies and robotics and everything else, in addition to 800 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,960 of course, to the, to the massive rearmament effort in 801 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,120 both in Asia and in Europe. So there's demand. 802 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,960 The second thing is, of course, supply disruptions. 803 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,440 And like I said before, I don't expect supply disruption to 804 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,120 disappear. As I said, out of the 23 805 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,400 different restrictions China just suspended for has LED a lot 806 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,040 more that are still there and many more could be added to 807 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,920 this. The third area is substitution. 808 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,400 And here you got to be very careful because it's no longer 809 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,040 like when I worked in gold, right? 810 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,280 If you just find something and you know, the helicopter takes 811 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,960 it to the rent refinery or or you know, to Switzerland and 812 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,640 that's it, you don't deal with this anymore. 813 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,280 Maybe you do some marketing, you know, with ready models in 814 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,160 India, but that's it. Here you have to be actually 815 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,000 cognizant of what was happening there. 816 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,400 Who's going to use this beryllium on this floor spar or 817 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,800 that boron and for what? And is there any risk that if 818 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,040 there's not enough of this, there's going to be a demand 819 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,880 destruction? So it's it's different thinking 820 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,720 about the portfolio. We will actually follow very 821 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,480 closely developments in many spaces including semiconductor 822 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,640 space. What it actually means, you know 823 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,400 what's where, where's the problem? 824 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,120 I mean even in that, you know, this was probably under 825 00:48:55,120 --> 00:49:02,280 reported, but during those three weeks of the most severe quasi 826 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,240 embargo on experts of different minerals between October 9 and 827 00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:11,400 October 28th, Applied Materials which is an important developer 828 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:17,960 of hardware for semiconductor production, they were screaming 829 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,160 that their inventory was running low. 830 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,320 We don't know on which materials, but it was a problem. 831 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,400 IFML in the Netherlands was also kind of a flashing red light. 832 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,920 So it's, it's, it's not just the batteries, it's not just the 833 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,560 magnets, it's a, it's a much broader story that you might not 834 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:40,160 be able to easily substitute for many of these, but some yes. 835 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,040 And so you have to be, you have to be careful and you have to 836 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,080 you have to watch the developments and of course look 837 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,160 at what the speed is moving from, you know, a, a really 838 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,120 pretty idea in a lab into something that's a proper pile 839 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,760 up and proper demo. And then, you know, potentially 840 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,280 commercialized. In the US we still have pretty 841 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,120 good R&D and many of these things. 842 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,040 And of course we are committing the cardinal sin of not being 843 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,880 able to scale it up to commercial production because 844 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,560 the VC sector never had to care about it And everything that was 845 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:17,120 high tech, high end hardware migrated to Taiwan, South Korea 846 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,760 or Japan. And then of course, large scale, 847 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:25,200 low margin, big volume metallurgy ended up in China and 848 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,160 hence the problem in the middle of the value chain. 849 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:32,040 So yes, we, you know, you're right, there'll be different 850 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,960 stages there, but I think stage 1 is not, we're not at the end 851 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,160 of that yet at all. It's only starting. 852 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,160 If we if we break down the specific commodities that 853 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,120 constitute critical minerals, there's many ways to, you know, 854 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,920 to evaluate their relevance in this multi polar world. 855 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,320 One one way that is, is simple to think about on just a bar 856 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,960 chart is is, yeah, like how much like how much we depend on them 857 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,160 from from China versus the rest of the world. 858 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,320 When when you just identify the the most attractive commodities 859 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,320 to go searching for for investment opportunities like 860 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,000 what, what ranks near the top of the the the list for you, 861 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,080 Thomas. You know what I'm in love with 862 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,160 these days? The table of elements because 863 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:26,040 it's it's, it's not only because it brings me back to school, but 864 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:31,000 also how it actually makes such perfect sense like few other 865 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,360 things in nature. And you can, you can see how 866 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:40,040 things connect in the market. So I strongly encourage people 867 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,000 to go back to that, to the source. 868 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:47,040 So we tend to view the market as three different segments with 869 00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,080 their own rules and regulations. If you wish rare earths is a 870 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:55,480 sort of 1 sector is sufficiently rich, right, with 17, if we wish 871 00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,360 actually 16 elements, 15 or 14 lanthanides +2. 872 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:05,360 And we have, you know, we very much a focus on the heavies plus 873 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:10,160 samarium, atrium and gadolinium for specific demand reasons. 874 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,600 You have a source between different types of geology, of 875 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,920 course. But at the end of the day, if 876 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,600 someone finds really, you know, high itch room xenotime and it's 877 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,640 not owned by the Japanese and still you can actually leverage 878 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,000 this in the equity market. I'll be, you know, a happy 879 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,920 taker, so please let me know. The second second segment is 880 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,920 battery materials, very unhappy sub sector in the last three 881 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,600 years until probably two months ago. 882 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,720 On lithium side, the cobalt is difficult to read because it's 883 00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:43,280 been a tug of war between DRC and PRC this year. 884 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,600 So we don't know what's, you know, how, how Kinshasa will 885 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,320 play with the with, with, with the quotas going forward. 886 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,080 Technically like an argument that quotas are illegal from the 887 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,280 perspective of the World Trade Organization. 888 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,600 But then, you know, we've had a lot of quotas and I don't think 889 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,000 many people are rushing to with Lausanne and Geneva anymore to 890 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:10,760 to fight their cases. But, you know, graphite, 891 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:16,200 manganese, vanadium, nickel, all in pretty bad space right now. 892 00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:21,160 Some of these might not go back to the, you know, heyday of 893 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:26,360 excitement of better materials for, say, NCM chemistry. 894 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,000 So got to be cautious. But it looks like lithium is 895 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:34,160 going to have a better year in this excitement over over energy 896 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,000 storage. And then there's this third 897 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,120 area, which is the specialty materials, which we tend to kind 898 00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,320 of dissociate between those that are directly mined. 899 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,400 And there's tungsten, there's antimony, that's tin, 900 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:52,400 increasingly titanium, but for metal, titanium sponge, not not 901 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,040 dioxide. And then of course a number of 902 00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:02,120 by products, gallium, germanium, Indium, what else hafnium that 903 00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,720 comes with zirconium usually maybe an opportunity there is 904 00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:09,560 zirconium production might not continue to grow. 905 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,360 So by products are usually might benefit from this. 906 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,640 We like floor spar for a variety of reasons, not only because of 907 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,120 hexafluoride, you know, nasty piece of toxic thing without 908 00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,880 which graphite production is not possible, but also because it's 909 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,520 an important element in the, in the nuclear cycle. 910 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,680 We're not exposed directly to the large markets such as, you 911 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,560 know, uranium and copper, but we do look at things that matter 912 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,800 for the uranium cycle. SRMS and and and low and rich 913 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,680 actually use different metals out there and some of them, you 914 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,480 know, some of these markets are tighter than others. 915 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,640 Is, is the decision to not play in spaces like copper because 916 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,400 that's a quite a competitive space? 917 00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,280 Is that by mandate of the of the fund? 918 00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:00,920 How do you think about that? So not a hard mandate, but I 919 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,440 think there's a lot of products, there's a lot of opportunities 920 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,400 to invest in copper straight. We, we actually have one 921 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,960 position right now and I'm very happy about that position. 922 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,640 And you know, it's a, it's a story that we strongly believe 923 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,000 in, but we wouldn't like to have, you know, the core of the 924 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,600 of, of the portfolio in it. So it's sort of marginal in the 925 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:23,840 in the grand scheme of things. Why not those? 926 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,680 We didn't believe that China would be weaponizing copper or 927 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:32,040 uranium percent. We might change our view as now 928 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:36,000 70% of copper smelting is in China. 929 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,600 So we're getting slowly to the point, you know, where China 930 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,400 might be in a position depending how the TCRC problem is resolved 931 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,920 between Chile and, and, and China at the moment. 932 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,440 It's it's a very artificial market right now. 933 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,760 But let's not forget, you know, we look at copper prices, which 934 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:54,680 is refined price and not concentrate. 935 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,400 And therefore it's more important to smelt and refined 936 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,680 this stuff. Then who minds just to say that, 937 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:03,360 you know, out of 10 largest copper mines around the world, 8 938 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,920 are controlled by Western interests and only two by the 939 00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,000 Chinese is not enough if we don't smell and refine this 940 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:10,480 stuff. So we'll be watching this space, 941 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:16,440 but it's not, this is not how we pitch the the funds to to our 942 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,760 investors. And uranium of course is, you 943 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,680 know, there's so many other opportunities to invest, 944 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,640 including the sequestration funds and so on. 945 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:28,160 So we might have exposure to it because someone produces, say, 946 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,280 something else in uranium, but that's that's only as far as it 947 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:37,160 goes. In, in Antimony, we noticed like 948 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:43,880 a, a couple of months ago the a bid by US antimony Co-op to, to 949 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,080 acquire Lovato effectively. It looks, it looks a bit more 950 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,080 complicated now that their script has peeled off, not too 951 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,440 dissimilar from what might have happened with, with Anglo and 952 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,160 Normandy back in the day. I I suspect. 953 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,040 But is this a trend that we're going to see more and more of 954 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,000 these US kind of companies bidding for, for the Wild West's 955 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,160 like assets? Can we like, do you think this 956 00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,480 will be the first of many of these types of of deals to pop 957 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,200 up on our radar? Well, I would hope so they will 958 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:15,000 see some meaningful consolidation in the space and 959 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,720 that consolidation in this case will be vertical. 960 00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,320 And that's exactly where the Chinese are beating us. 961 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,040 Because, you know, we kind of in, in mining in general and not 962 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:30,640 just mining, we, we espouse this, this gospel about 25 years 963 00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,760 ago that you have to just be good at one node in the value 964 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:35,600 chain and nothing else. And it works perfect in 965 00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,320 semiconductors. We thought it works fine in 966 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,240 mining until you realize that, you know, one company drills, 967 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,640 another company moves the trucks and yet another company owns the 968 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,920 space, but someone else is trading for them. 969 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,880 You know, very few companies do the whole thing. 970 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,360 Meanwhile, you know, a a Chinese SPV goes to Africa and 971 00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,960 everything is taking care of, including future off take and 972 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,120 financing. And therefore you don't have an 973 00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,400 off take risk, don't have jurisdictional risk because it's 974 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,920 under, you know, Focock in Africa. 975 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:09,080 I'll see like in in South America, you don't have a price 976 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,800 risk, you don't have a cycle risk, you can't compete with 977 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,400 this. And in addition to it, you know, 978 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,520 cost of capital below inflation and below GDP and growth level 979 00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,200 in China. So that's that's for the 980 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,000 vertically integrated system. And so I would hope so that's 981 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,800 one reason why I hope so. Secondly, many of these U.S. 982 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,160 companies are not particularly good. 983 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,880 So for them to have access to decent assets would be a 984 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,120 positive thing. You know, recently a very 985 00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:42,160 shadowy U.S. company acquired A metallization play in UK, 986 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,200 actually the only western rare earth metallization factory. 987 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,240 And thanks God they did because honestly they had very poor 988 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:56,760 assets, you know, a nondescript rare earth potential asset in 989 00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,120 Texas and an old Hitachi plant without software. 990 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,720 So not a great way to start, you know, building a rare earth 991 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,240 business. But now they have metallization 992 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,440 plant. So I think, you know, probably 993 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,440 MP materials will have the currency to do something. 994 00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:16,400 We know that Linus is very averse to anything in terms of 995 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,760 consolidation in general. That's a shame. 996 00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,560 I think it would be an interesting, interesting role 997 00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,680 for them. Your performance would be 998 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,960 another one there. You know, they, they have to 999 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,880 find material that's not Russian and sooner rather than later. 1000 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,000 So it's there, there are opportunities there. 1001 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,280 Definitely. I think we should see more of 1002 00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,240 this. And then the question is going 1003 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,000 to be of, you know, the value and what, what the alternatives 1004 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,480 are. But we we do hope to start 1005 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,960 seeing that as as, as the place matures a bit. 1006 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,520 And when you look across the the three buckets that you described 1007 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,720 and and look at some of those elements, are there other 1008 00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,640 pockets or specific elements that you're particularly excited 1009 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:59,960 about at the moment? I mean we're, we're excited 1010 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,840 about specific. So we start always looking at 1011 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:07,320 the at the macro level and the commodity level and then we're 1012 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,160 looking, you know, at relative value of course and, and other 1013 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,600 drivers and whether there is a significant commitment to the 1014 01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,720 Western value chain. But at the end of the day, it's 1015 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:22,080 really about the the asset itself, right, because there is 1016 01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,760 no futures market where these prices you know are gyrating and 1017 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,520 that you're going to bank on something as a high beta equity 1018 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:35,080 exposure proxy to that price. Therefore, you know, the asset 1019 01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:38,520 itself has to make sense that some of these assets are new and 1020 01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:42,920 in development, say floor spar and some others like beryllium 1021 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,880 are mature or you know, high periodic warts are mature and 1022 01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,560 absolutely critical and strategic for the, for the 1023 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,880 Western value chain. And so we, you know, we, we, we 1024 01:00:54,040 --> 01:01:00,760 tend to kind of look across across the space and we, you 1025 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:06,240 know, we, we probably a little less optimistic about some of 1026 01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,400 the battery materials. I think there's some, there's 1027 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:14,920 some disconnect here in general in, in in this space and what 1028 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:19,400 happened with the bifurcation between the Western slash 1029 01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,680 Japanese car markets and the and and the Chinese market. 1030 01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,080 But that happened for an entirely different reason. 1031 01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,640 Has not absolutely nothing to do with commercial rationale. 1032 01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,400 It's is the way China wanted to reduce their dependence on 1033 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:36,400 liquid fuels imported from the Middle East and transported from 1034 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:40,240 Malacca Straits, which is, you know, strategic rationale and 1035 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,120 not not commercial rationale at all. 1036 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,520 So that's the electrification of their transportation. 1037 01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,880 Yeah, yeah, Yeah, totally. Final question from from me. 1038 01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:54,000 Thomas, you, you've noted at some point that the number of 1039 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,440 funds in the mining space, we've kind of spoken around this topic 1040 01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,120 quite a bit today is down dramatically, I think down by 1041 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:05,280 75% over the last decade alone. Is that a, you know, the, the 1042 01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,400 quantum of money seeking opportunities that that you look 1043 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,000 at? Is that something you think will 1044 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,680 will grow? Will we see more specialized 1045 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,400 mining funds, more funds seeking at critical minerals exposure 1046 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,440 specifically in in the coming five years say? 1047 01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,120 Right. So first looking at the peso, 1048 01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,560 I'm not sure if it's 70%. I had those numbers between 2010 1049 01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,760 and 2023. So for london-based specialist 1050 01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:37,240 funds, which was back in the day the largest source, that shrank 1051 01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:41,560 from 40 billion U.S. dollars in assets under management to 12. 1052 01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:47,200 And in Canada over the same period of time from 16 or 17 1053 01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,800 billion to about two. So quite dramatic. 1054 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:55,320 Let's say 23 was not glorious. You're I'm not sure it's much 1055 01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,240 better right now. There's a couple of reasons for 1056 01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:01,560 that. First, of course, the ETFs, you 1057 01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,920 know, there's an entire new generation of investors that 1058 01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:08,120 just are not comfortable with sort of funds managed by by 1059 01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:12,040 humans because of the fee structure, because of the gates, 1060 01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,160 because of this, because of that ETF such as easy liquid and so 1061 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:16,160 on. But of course, because they are 1062 01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:22,320 easy and liquid, they're not going to nurture a new industry 1063 01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,960 because essentially we're talking about new industry, you 1064 01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,000 know, juniors going through this birth canal of critical minerals 1065 01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,680 desert. It's going to take a while. 1066 01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,280 And you cannot raise money for ETFs if you don't have a broker 1067 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,600 and a real fund specialist on the other side. 1068 01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,160 So that's a problem. It's a generational problem. 1069 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:46,320 I think 1 area of hope is that mining and critical minerals are 1070 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,080 becoming a real topic here in the United States. 1071 01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,000 I mean, it's really front page news now. 1072 01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,440 There's constantly something about this space. 1073 01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,760 And so people are becoming curious, you know, start, you 1074 01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:59,360 know, calling and asking questions. 1075 01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,040 And this is one of the reason why I decided to write the book, 1076 01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:03,920 because they didn't necessarily understand this space. 1077 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:08,760 So you can find a sneak peek on the mineralwar.com. 1078 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,760 But it's it's just, it's an attempt to explain to potential 1079 01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:20,320 allocators what the challenges and why this space will matter 1080 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:22,760 more and more and why this demand is so structurally 1081 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,880 important across a variety of different industries. 1082 01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,120 We don't really usually think about it as minors, but we have 1083 01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:32,480 to start thinking about it because otherwise we won't be 1084 01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:34,160 able to redevelop those value chains. 1085 01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:38,040 Thank you so much, Thomas. It's a great place to leave this 1086 01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:39,360 conversation. We've enjoyed it thoroughly. 1087 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,760 Appreciate your time, Thomas. Super. 1088 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,240 Thank you. Thank you for having. 1089 01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,000 Me big thank you to Thomas for sharing his wisdom mate. 1090 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,480 I really enjoyed that one. Love the geopolitical and the 1091 01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:52,440 macro kind of ideations and thinking that goes on behind the 1092 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:53,880 scenes there. He's clearly thought about it 1093 01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,440 quite a bit. And I'll extend our thank yous 1094 01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,640 to Sandbicrand. Support focus the platform by 1095 01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,760 market Tech Interlinks. Check them out in the show 1096 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,640 notes, as well as Switch Technologies and Exceed Capital. 1097 01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,280 Uduru money Monas Uduru. Go Australia. 1098 01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:11,080 Now remember, I'm an idiot. JD is an idiot. 1099 01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:13,520 If you thought any of this was anything other than 1100 01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,160 entertainment, you're an idiot and you need to read out 1101 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:16,640 disclaimer.