1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,560 JD, I'm not sure if you've been paying attention right, but 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,200 there's a bit going on with Kokola. 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:10,760 So some, some brew pillars are burst effectively and the extent 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,520 and severity of this situation is, is still kind of yet to 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,160 fully play out. The both Ivanhoe and Zejin have 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,120 put out some commentary to the effect to describe what's 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:21,680 happening. And it's early days. 8 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,080 So we still don't kind of know everything, but the, the share 9 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:26,400 price has fallen that 20% already. 10 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,120 I'm talking about about Ivanhoe in in this case. 11 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,000 And as everyone's kind of trying to piece things together, I 12 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,800 thought it would be just absolutely awesome if we got the 13 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,600 insight of Neil Ringdial, who, who is a mining engineer who is 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,200 so like pointed and thoughtful and great at explaining like 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,840 what he is interpreting based on the press releases. 16 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,240 I caught up with Neil this morning just on a, on a, on a 17 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,880 call and I asked him some questions, mostly because he put 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,200 out a couple of tweets, which I, I just found so insightful as he 19 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,400 as he spoke about what, you know, his interpretations of the 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,400 events are, how serious they might be and what the 21 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,160 implications could be for for Ivanhoe A. 100% mate. 22 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,600 It's the biggest copper mine in Africa. 23 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,400 It's one of the biggest copper mines in the world. 24 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,160 It's been a glowing success story for a number of years now. 25 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,240 Obviously owned by Ivanhoe as well as the Jin and the 26 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,920 Congolese government. And like you said, the the news 27 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,280 has sort of rocked the stock market. 28 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,720 So we tacked on a little bit of a conversation with the Koala at 29 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,880 the end as well to get a more of a, a market's kind of 30 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,720 perspective on this and how he kind of interprets the event. 31 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,600 But I'm super excited to share the the technical conversation 32 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,880 with Neil as he sort of understands it, his experience 33 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,280 in underground operations. Very excited to bring bring 34 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,400 Neil's voice to the potty. Let us know guys if you you want 35 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:47,840 more from from Neil in the future. 36 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,360 I I really enjoyed speaking with him and but first mate it's 37 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,320 Friday, which means it's called KCA Friday. 38 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,040 Normally I like to surprise Adam on Fridays, but today he's told 39 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,040 me to call Kca's recruitment manager, Christian Dean. 40 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,880 Hello. Trav. 41 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:07,640 What? You saved my number, Adam. 42 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:13,760 Switched me up. What would it take for a guy 43 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,000 like me who has zero underground mining expertise to to? 44 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,400 Become an underground miner. They got a manual. 45 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,480 License, Yeah, yeah, that's good start yeah for. 46 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,200 Sure. Like we're, we're all about 47 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,520 helping our clients. So it's what they want if they 48 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,600 need actually little people and they want to come to us. 49 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,440 But in all honesty, like coming from those experienced people, 50 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,920 people with the skills that they're looking for, people that 51 00:02:40,920 --> 00:02:43,720 are a bit tired of find. So we generally have to go 52 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:49,240 kicking, excuse the pun. We're all this pretty much ex 53 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,720 operators. It's people they trust, people 54 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,040 that have done it so we can relate to the people we're 55 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,600 speaking with, obviously know some of those nuances that might 56 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:01,760 be required and understand what they actually need in both the 57 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,000 candidate and and the client. We know what it's like to be on 58 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,480 site. If they're not coming down the 59 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,240 hall, if you don't have the people, well that's not working. 60 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,480 So when they call that you really need someone and I need 61 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,720 them yesterday. So having that sort of mindset 62 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,520 as opposed to just like just recruiting, you know, so it 63 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,600 happens. I think that helps. 64 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,760 Just called KCII. Like to talk about things that 65 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,200 I'm interested in and I've always been interested in having 66 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,520 her. I should think before, you know, 67 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,520 this is negative news, but I must just say I'm very impressed 68 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:41,080 with the ability of that company to execute on building new mines 69 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,240 and power plants. And you know, they're very, 70 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,280 very, very good at that. You know, they're done projects, 71 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,760 they've met, you know, projects have been on time and they've 72 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,160 had the glitches and but they've been like worked through them. 73 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,680 And I guess this is another one, but I'm also a shareholder. 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:06,320 I like to talk about, I like to talk about stuff I invest in. 75 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,400 And I know what it's like to be on both sides of the story 76 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,320 enough. I've worked for public companies 77 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,279 before in executive positions. And, you know, there's that 78 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,839 famous phrase that goes, you know, if there's a bad press 79 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,120 release in for a mining company, then the news must be very bad, 80 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,720 very bad indeed because they always have to try and present 81 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,800 the bad news in the best possible light because of the 82 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,960 obvious impact. It's material, material 83 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,760 information. So it's always quite difficult 84 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,560 to decipher these things. And I felt I just wanted to, you 85 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,800 know, share my own thoughts on what I thought was really going 86 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,560 on behind the scenes and what might be the case, what might be 87 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,560 happening there. Yeah, I think that it's been 88 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,360 super useful because originally it appeared like, you know, the 89 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,200 the owners of this operations that Gin and Ivanhoe disagreed 90 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:00,240 on. Maybe. 91 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,640 Maybe it was semantics. Or. 92 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,080 Or the sensitivity as it related to what was actually happening 93 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,000 here. But there there was a 94 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,920 geotechnical event of some sort, but the the severity of it kind 95 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,480 of took a little bit little while to understand. 96 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,280 You. Were pretty astute, like early 97 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:19,360 on when there was that initial understanding that there could 98 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,880 be a bit more to the story. Yeah, I mean, my ears picked up 99 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,120 when the first press release came out that there were some 100 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,840 problems. And then then I got very 101 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:35,120 concerned when the second press release came out and there was 102 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,040 some objection to the Zigen press release from Ivanhoe. 103 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,160 So the two major shareholders had a disagreement. 104 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,880 And I think it wasn't really anything, as I said in my first 105 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,680 tweet, I didn't think it was anything malicious. 106 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,920 I just think that maybe there was a little bit less 107 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,080 understanding or maybe there was some concern about the the 108 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,360 possible misunderstanding of the audience what was in the 109 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,520 decision press release. But essentially both press 110 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:01,960 releases were saying the same thing. 111 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,480 The one said that there was spalling and falls of hanging 112 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,600 wool. And the other one said that 113 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,160 there was some seismicity and, you know, pillar bursts, OK. 114 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,960 And when you have pillar pillars bursting, you get spalling of 115 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,280 the pillars. That's what it's called. 116 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:21,360 When you know the size of the pillars flake off, that's called 117 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,240 spalling. And you'll get bits material 118 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:25,640 falling off the hanging wall as well. 119 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,240 And it's obviously very hazardous. 120 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,680 If anybody's in that area, these things happen, you know, 121 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,600 seismics, the site, it's mining induced seismicity. 122 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,040 In other words, the seismicity wasn't there. 123 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:37,840 That's very lucky, in my opinion. 124 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:41,680 It wasn't, it wasn't, you know, that part of the Congo is not 125 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,080 very seismically active as far as I'm aware. 126 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,160 And so it has to be mining or induced. 127 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,960 And and that's, that's quite normal for many operations. 128 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,680 You know, even in ALMA here in Honduras, we have, we also get, 129 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:58,080 we also get pillar bursts from time to time, but we don't have 130 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,560 the same kind of very widespread board and pillar layout that 131 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,080 they've got at, at Kakula. And in the shallow mining 132 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,400 environment, like at Kakula, you've, you've got a, you know, 133 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,240 when you see, when you hear about seismicity in a, in a 134 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,440 shadow mining environment and multiple, you know, multiple 135 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,920 events or multiple, you know, you know, bursting of pillars, 136 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,480 that's, that's very big cause for concern in any mine. 137 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,680 OK, It's OK if you have one now and again, but if you have 138 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:33,520 multiple to the extent that your main accesses, you know, you 139 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,280 have to, you have to get people out of there and that, you know, 140 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,760 you have to start looking at alternatives to replace your 141 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,680 pumping system because your pump columns have broken because of 142 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,440 the because of the police bursting, you know, that 143 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,360 suggests that there's something more serious, OK. 144 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,160 Can you help me understand that the difference between, yeah, 145 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,680 like experiencing this in a date mine versus a shallow mine and 146 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,840 why? Why the extra level of concern? 147 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,680 Well, with deeper mining you get more elastic behavior to the 148 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,000 rock because of the depths and you also have a stronger 149 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,280 horizontal stress component normally as well as a strong 150 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,880 obviously a very strong, much stronger vertical stress 151 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:16,760 component. With a deeper mine, you've got 152 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,120 all this weighted rock above you. 153 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,040 You also get horizontal stress, increase horizontal stress. 154 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,080 And with ultra deep mines, like, you know, the deep platinum 155 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,000 mines and gold mine in South Africa and in do some of the 156 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,640 deep mines in North America that I'm aware of, you know, you, 157 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,120 you, you get the, the rock actually behaves more 158 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,360 plastically. And so your support regimes are 159 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,040 different, OK, to what you need. You know, they're more of a 160 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,360 yielding support. And you have to, you have to do 161 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,360 a mine layout that's, you know, that suits, suits whatever 162 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,360 environment you're in. But the shallow mining 163 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,480 environment, you're dealing more with dead weight. 164 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,360 OK, so we're talking anything less than some people might 165 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,480 think is deep, but it's 1000 meters or less is from where 166 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:07,720 where I grew up was considered shallow. 167 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,280 And so that's, that's the environment we're talking about 168 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,240 a cooler, cooler. I don't know what the depth is 169 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,720 now, but it's probably less than 500 meters at this stage. 170 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,080 I know that all body goes down to about 1000 meters, but they 171 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,040 haven't got that deep yet. And so it's fairly shallow. 172 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,120 And so when you do a mining layer, and it's also a flat ore 173 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,800 body. So when you're mining a flat ore 174 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,240 body, you're obviously going to leave pillars to support the, 175 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:36,800 the beam, the weights of everything above you. 176 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,320 Those pillars have to be designed for the entire rock 177 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,520 mess above the pillar. And but that's, you know, 178 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,160 overhanging between the excavations between each pillar. 179 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,600 OK. And, and then how those pillars 180 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,680 will fail will depend on the size and the amount of stress on 181 00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:58,240 them. And so if you make them smaller 182 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,600 or if you start with a big pillar and you might not, you 183 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,040 know, or we make them too small, depending on the rock 184 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,480 characteristics themselves, it will they will fail the other 185 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,240 flail plastically or you know, they'll burst. 186 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,400 OK. And you know, when a pillar 187 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,080 bursts, I think it's important to understand that it can still 188 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,320 have a yield resistance after bursting. 189 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,080 It just means that the solid part of the rock in the middle 190 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,360 of the pillars definitely cracked. 191 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:32,360 OK, And you have broken rock on the sides that Spall out OK, But 192 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,960 as long as you keep that intact, it's still got some support 193 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,680 resistance left. OK, Things can happen where you 194 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:44,600 have if you have a very hard ore body, for example, and maybe the 195 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,000 foot wall or the floor is very soft, you can have what will 196 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,240 happen there is the pillow will stay will will punch into the 197 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,320 football and and it'll it'll seem as if the floor is coming 198 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,400 up, but really the pillow is punching into the football. 199 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,480 OK. That's a different type of 200 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,880 failing mechanism. You can also have the reverse if 201 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,480 you have a soft hanging wall and you have a hard ore body that 202 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,280 you're mining and can punch into your hanging wall and that's 203 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,760 going to be that's going to also be pretty bad. 204 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,440 In this case, from what I've read from the technical reports, 205 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,080 the foot wall is very hard and in the all body itself is quite 206 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,840 soft and in the material on top of it is also quite soft. 207 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:27,000 So they have to do a lot of shotcreting and you know, a lot 208 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,720 of support, a lot of shot creating is just basically 209 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,560 putting the concrete skin on the inside of your tunnel. 210 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,440 And then you know, you know, your usual, your whatever 211 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,120 support, your local support regime they've got in form of of 212 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,760 of bolts or anchors. And then you've got your pillars 213 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,080 which are holding up the mass of everything above it. 214 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:53,240 And so I don't know what what is bursting. 215 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,000 We don't have enough information available to us to know exactly 216 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,120 what's happening. It could be the concrete skins 217 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,440 on the shotcrete that's bursting, but I don't think so. 218 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,160 I think what probably the pillars are solid rock pillars. 219 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,960 And even though the rock is very poor, the whole body is very 220 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,800 poor. It's it's, it's, you know, it 221 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,440 crunches and when it crunches, it makes a burst and it gives, 222 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,960 it gives, you know, it releases energy rapidly in that as that 223 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,200 happens. And then what's worrying to me 224 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,400 though, and that can happen fine. 225 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,400 You know, sometimes you'll have a small pillar that's kind of 226 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,200 taking a bit more load than than than than the others around it. 227 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,480 Maybe there's bigger spans between that pillar and others 228 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,880 and it'll fail. It'll fail like that. 229 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,520 It'll be a big thump underground. 230 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,800 You'll hear it and it'll give you a scare and that pillar will 231 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,960 Spall and if you're nearby you'll be OK. 232 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,880 As long as you're not standing next to it, you'd probably be 233 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,320 OK. But when you have multiple 234 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,960 pillars failing, that suggests that they are losing. 235 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,640 So that beam that pillar fails is a little bit of movement. 236 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,560 Now that hanging wool beam has to be supported by the remaining 237 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:09,200 pillars, which are still stiff, but they also start failing. 238 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,200 Keep putting extra. Extra like a runaway train. 239 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,560 OK, so you'll get a whole area that starts to fail and that's 240 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:22,000 what's concerning. OK, if it was just one or two 241 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,200 pillars, it would be OK, but it seems to be widespread. 242 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,120 Otherwise, why would they have to evacuate the whole mine? 243 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,360 OK. And so that's very concerning. 244 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,280 And so it's not really the failure mode, which is what was 245 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,960 the the objection of of the Ivanhoe guys were, you know, 246 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,760 objecting to what surgeon mining was saying in my opinion, and 247 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:49,360 this is just my opinion, OK. You know the I think I think 248 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,080 it's I think it's something more serious. 249 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,600 I'm more concerned about the number of pillars that have 250 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,600 failed. And it'd be great if we got some 251 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,080 clarity from the company on that and I'm sure we'll get that. 252 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,360 But you know, they have, they have to be very careful how 253 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,440 they, how they, you know, how they, how they explain this, you 254 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:12,440 know, to avoid liabilities. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a risk 255 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,600 that was date detailed in, in their technical reports 2020 256 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:24,760 like initially in 20/20/19. And is that a risk that's there 257 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,480 just because of the, the mining method itself or is it to do 258 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,240 with the, you know, the, the ground conditions as well, a 259 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:32,920 kind of combination of all those factors? 260 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,000 Is, I mean, I don't, you know, at this stage it's too early for 261 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,560 us to comment on whether it was a bad mining method or obviously 262 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,880 there was something that that was planned that never went 263 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,760 according to plan that resulted in this. 264 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,280 So I mean, I'm actually looking at the technical report right 265 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,960 now here and it says, you know, in the 2023 it talks about, you 266 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,760 know, major structures, namely the waste fault structures that 267 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,240 still contain soft infilling. And this coupled with tight 268 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,360 filling during drift and full mining operations, it is 269 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,480 unlikely seismic activity will occur on these structures. 270 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,800 It's it could be the fault structures that are moving. 271 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,320 OK, but the fact that they've talked about pillars bursting 272 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,280 and spalling, I think it is a pillars. 273 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,560 OK. Then they'd say in the next 274 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,240 sentence of this technical report. 275 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,280 The bracket pillars that will be left along the large structures 276 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,040 will also assist in containing seismic activity. 277 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,520 So if you have a fault going through an ore body and you're 278 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,320 mining along the other side, you put a pillow on either side of 279 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:36,760 the fault. You don't actually mine on 280 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,800 against the fault or through the fault except for your excesses. 281 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,520 And you leave a pillar. Those are called bracket 282 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,200 pillars. And that's to prevent because 283 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,880 you'll have a different stress regime in this block, which is 284 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,320 defined by the by the fault on the one side. 285 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,560 It'll have different stress and this block will have different 286 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,320 stress depending on the load. And so you can get movements on 287 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,040 a fault and they can correct that can be seismic, OK. 288 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,680 And that's what that's what happens in the deep mine very 289 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,560 often, OK. And I think that's what they 290 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,800 were concerned about here, OK, But it's not a deep mine. 291 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,120 Nevertheless, it's a consideration that was taken 292 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,680 into account by the geotech guys, OK. 293 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,240 And an induced localized goes on to say, hey, the induced 294 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,000 localized seismic response associated with strain bursting 295 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,440 and or pillow bursting, which is the same thing may occur. 296 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,440 This will be contained a result of tight filling and correct 297 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,960 sequencing during cut and saw mining operations. 298 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,880 The seismicity in this case must be related to the pillars 299 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,120 failing. OK. 300 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,080 And then probably because they were too small or the mining 301 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,240 spans were too large for that rock mass rating before that 302 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,120 particular rock time. OK. 303 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:56,240 And and you know in the previous technical report that said there 304 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,040 was not enough information. They need to do more work on it. 305 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,280 I'm sure the team, they have been doing work on it, but they 306 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,000 made a decision based on recommendations by subject 307 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,520 matter experts to do a particular mining method and 308 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,839 then they went and mined it. And now what's happened is they 309 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:14,720 found that the regional low bearing capacity of this pillar 310 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,560 seems to be aggression. OK. 311 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:20,640 And that's the question that they are probably looking into 312 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,480 right now. Is it that bad that they have to 313 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,280 go and redevelop a whole, you know, new mine adjacent to the 314 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,240 existing mine? Or is it is it going to be 315 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:40,360 something that is, you know, maybe they can manage, maybe 316 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:43,640 it's just, you know, a localized area in this in a one in, you 317 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,480 know, in a in one section of the mine. 318 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,520 They can still continue to mine. And then they have to ask 319 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,680 yourself the question, what mining method were they using? 320 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,360 And it was a drift and full mining method with backfill is a 321 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,760 brand new backfill plant on site, fully commissioned, very 322 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,080 state-of-the-art. But there could have been a 323 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,400 management decision there. And that's what I seduced it as 324 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:05,240 well. There might have been a 325 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,720 management decision to delay the backfilling and just mine the 326 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,400 primary drifts and then not not come back and backfill them, 327 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,800 just mine the primary drifts and keep going because it's such a 328 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,280 huge ore body. You could probably get away with 329 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,880 that as long as you don't go back and rob any pillars. 330 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,560 Maybe maybe that's what maybe that's what the issue is. 331 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,880 Maybe they, you know, maybe they should have backfilled this, OK. 332 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,440 And or maybe there was secondary extraction going ahead of time. 333 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,080 People were taking a bit of a chance. 334 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,800 It could be an operating thing. OK, The geotech consultants will 335 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,680 be quick to jump on that. If that is the case, I'm sure, 336 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,680 OK. And I'm sure the truth will come 337 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,760 out in the wash, but it could have just been a case that the 338 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,520 pillar designs were, you know, it's normally multiple factors 339 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,160 as well that causes something like this. 340 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,160 Like any incident in the mine, there's not one factor that 341 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,600 normally results in an incident or or injury or a fatality. 342 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,360 There's normally multiple factors. 343 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,160 Just like, you know, when you look at an aircraft 344 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,480 investigation, I'm sure you've know about the Swiss cheese 345 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,000 municipal where you have these walls of safety and they but 346 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,000 each have the each have, they're not, they're not fail safe and 347 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,840 they've got holes in them. And so if the holes line up 348 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,440 perfectly, then that's what happens. 349 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,480 So you've got to think like that. 350 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:32,880 Yeah, so. The, the, the way around this, 351 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,120 would it, would it have likely have just been to well, OK, so 352 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:40,160 maybe it was maybe, maybe if it was the lack of back filling, 353 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,120 back filling might have maybe mitigated it. 354 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,960 But could there also have been an issue with the pillar sizes 355 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:51,800 themselves being too too small? Yeah, of course, could be. 356 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,040 Yeah. I looked at the mining plan in 357 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,560 my tweets and I tweeted a picture of it. 358 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,800 You know, you could see what they did in 2019. 359 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,880 And then here's a photograph of the mine. 360 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,440 What's being mined? In 2000 and not a photograph, 361 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,440 but as built part of the mine and you can have a look, you can 362 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,280 see, you can see the drifts that they've mined and they mine out 363 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,080 very quite a large area. It looks like about 500 meters 364 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,680 more in span over maybe a kilometer or two. 365 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,400 It's I mean they've been mining at quite a right there. 366 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,160 And so that's a big area that's mined. 367 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,680 And it's like, you know, coal mines developed like that too, 368 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,760 which is a very flat ore body. So it's very similar to coal 369 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:40,040 mining, underground coal mining. And when you do board and pillar 370 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,520 mining and coal mining, you know, you've also got to bear in 371 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,280 mind that your pillars have to be designed for for the full 372 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,320 load over the full span. And if one area fails, the 373 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,320 weight be the load in that area that's failed can transfer them 374 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,880 to the adjacent area. And I think that's what's 375 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,880 happened here. And unfortunately, it looks like 376 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,040 it's gone a bit close to the development into the, you know, 377 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,640 the main, the main axis development it might have, that 378 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,160 might have gone and affected the main access declines. 379 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,160 And I only only come to that conclusion because the pump 380 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,040 pumping system was damaged and they're looking at replacing, 381 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:24,480 you know, getting a new pumps and new and new lines to to keep 382 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,800 the mind dry. And I would imagine those lines 383 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,480 will probably be in the main access decline if you would 384 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,400 think that would be in a more protected area. 385 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,200 So. So that is a concern, yeah. 386 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,640 When you, when you highlight those two photos, 1 from 2019, 387 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,040 yeah, the other one from 2023, what are you comparing there and 388 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,960 and sort of seeing that's different? 389 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,080 You can see the block that they said room and pillar mining 390 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,560 area. OK, I look at that room and 391 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,200 pillar mining area there in scale and I can see the green 392 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,040 declines going down there. And I switch over to the next 393 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:05,120 picture, you know as built in June 2022 and I can see that 394 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,200 room and pillar mining area. They've done some room and 395 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,000 pillar mining there and then there's lots of fingers going 396 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,680 along there. If you look very small, they're 397 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,880 all Gray fingers. And those are the developments 398 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,800 and in between all the pillars, OK. 399 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,440 And I'm not sure which of the pillars have failed and which 400 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,040 have not, but I have to imagine that all of those pillars have 401 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,040 gone and they've moved over towards the North Port or access 402 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,920 area, which is looks like the mining gets quite close there, 403 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,360 OK, to that E service perimeter, E perimeter service drift that 404 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:42,880 they've got planned there, OK. And I don't know if you can show 405 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,160 the audience. Yeah. 406 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,040 But that area there between the North Port and the east 407 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,280 perimeter service drift is what I think is where I imagine the 408 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,560 pump column might be. That service drift is a decline 409 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,440 going down, probably downed up by the looks of it. 410 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:04,120 And and we've got to see, you know, that axis will be cut off. 411 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,440 The part of the analysis you, you, you know, you've put out 412 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,640 there that grab grabs me and clearly the the share market as 413 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,600 as well was kind of your, your thumb sucking implications that 414 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,040 there might be for both both my life and and operating costs. 415 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,320 How, how did you, how'd you come up with with those numbers? 416 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:36,400 Good question. It's I guess it's a it's what I 417 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,800 think could be the implication. I mean, if you look at the again 418 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:47,880 at the map, I imagine that N portal ramps pretty good down to 419 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,040 the bottom of the straight section there. 420 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,560 But maybe you have to redevelop all the way around to get to 421 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,000 access, you know, you have to develop all around, right around 422 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,560 that caved area. And the worst case scenario, 423 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,960 it's quite a lot of development. There's no scale on this 424 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,880 particular plan, but those are big ends. 425 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,960 Those are 6 by 6m ends, twin ends. 426 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,920 They're, you know, forming the east service perimeter drifts. 427 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,320 There's two of them running down there. 428 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,480 So you can get an idea. It's a couple 100 meters, few 429 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,440 100 meters, maybe 1000 meters of development that you'd need to 430 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,680 reconnect to that existing design for the east perimeter 431 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,240 service drift. And then you have to go back 432 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,880 into the ore body and develop into the ore new new access 433 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,400 drifts. So I don't think it's that 434 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,200 unreasonable to say it could be anything from 6 to 18 months if 435 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,120 you have to redevelop the mind if that whole area is unsafe to 436 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,000 go back into. But as I said, those pillars 437 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,960 might be good enough. You know, if the size MIDI 438 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,320 settles down and the whole thing settles down, you may still be 439 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,120 able to go back into the area. That's where the pillars are 440 00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,720 burst and you may still be able to use some of that 441 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,160 infrastructure again, you know, and do it safely. 442 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,840 And then just brack, you know, and then the impact will be a 443 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,280 lot lower. We'll, I'm sure everybody's 444 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,880 doing their sums and their design work and the inspections 445 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,200 and that and and working out what to do. 446 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,600 And we need to give the company some time to to come up with a 447 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:24,080 plan how to how to, you know, how to re establish this again, 448 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,320 if we look at the resource and reserve, most likely we're going 449 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,280 to have a decrease in the reserve because you have to you 450 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,880 know, in your reserve caps, you leave pillars outside, outside a 451 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,120 reserve reserve is what you can actually put in the mill. 452 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,440 So any pillars that you leave behind, stability pillars you 453 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,160 leave behind will have to come out of the reserve, out of the 454 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,240 reserve. And obviously if this has 455 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,760 failed, we need to be more conservative with our design. 456 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,240 So one would naturally cook 2. The pillars have to be bigger. 457 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:01,080 OK, it's possible they won't. I mean, if they can work out a 458 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:06,720 way to backfill and do, you know, complete extraction, that 459 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,280 would be great. But that would be another whole 460 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,160 new mining method altogether. And I don't know what the 461 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,320 geotechnical implications of that would be. 462 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:22,440 OK, but but but I suppose that's a possibility. 463 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,680 I think more realistically they'll probably end up going 464 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,080 with bigger pillars and that would mean, you know, how much 465 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,600 bigger pillars do you need? I don't know the answer to that. 466 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,280 But you know, even if the pillars are 10% bigger, you're 467 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,600 probably looking at about a probably looking at about a 30% 468 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,840 reduction in reserves. Yeah, OK, maybe maybe less, but 469 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,760 probably something like that looking at this layout be. 470 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,760 Substantial, OK. But it's substantial. 471 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,560 But it's not. It's not really. 472 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,160 An. Enormous resource. 473 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,040 It's such a magnificent resource. 474 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,240 OK, so that it's just going to take longer to longer to mine 475 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,160 and it'll take them much longer to ramp up to the planned the 476 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,240 planned numbers that they've, you know they've got in their 477 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:13,040 the phases of phase four phase. I can't remember which phase 478 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,800 they're on now, but in the next phase of expansion, OK. 479 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,920 So it'll just be a slower ramp up and they also obviously doing 480 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,600 homework as I mentioned, I think they'll they'll they'll be 481 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,240 looking at increasing production from Kamoa and maybe they can 482 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,160 fast track the IT seems that Kakula W is not that badly 483 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,440 affected. If you look at the map, it also 484 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,360 seems like you know that South portal ramp is a little bit 485 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:40,640 further away from most of the minings to date. 486 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,280 So not as much bypass development may be required 487 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,800 there to go and re establish something to the West and maybe 488 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,520 they can get into that a bit faster. 489 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,760 Gotcha. So. 490 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,840 So we've got to wait and see what they say there. 491 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:58,080 Gotcha. The twin D the twin twin portals 492 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,400 in this case, you would you would you would assume you know 493 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,480 helps the continuity of of operations as opposed to having 494 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,760 like a an elongated period where you can't actually mine right, 495 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,040 correct, correct. Yeah. 496 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,040 You know, and I guess, you know, you look at all the plan 497 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,320 development there, it's quite hard to see, you know, with 498 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,960 this, you know, simplified diagrams for this would be much 499 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,760 better to see more detail. And I think there is more detail 500 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,040 available there. I haven't looked. 501 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,280 Ivan has been very good at presenting detail on their 502 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,520 expansion plans as they go with, you know, presentations and 503 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,120 videos. And I've been, you know, been 504 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,720 looking at these for months and months and years and years. 505 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,240 Every quarter that I think every month they put out a new photo 506 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,200 album of each of their projects. And it's very interesting to see 507 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,760 what they do. There's a lot of very good info 508 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,200 that I get from from those photo reports and, and, and what their 509 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,920 display is really impressive stuff. 510 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,280 And with this team that they've got, they'll, they'll do the 511 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,760 best that they can do. It's unfortunate markets don't 512 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:10,440 really give credit to teams, you know, for success really. 513 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,080 They've quicker to give this credit to discredit the team 514 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,800 when they have something like this. 515 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,280 And I've mentioned that in one of my comments to some of the 516 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,960 questions that got to these tweets is, you know, it's it's 517 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,680 very easy for us to say, yeah, it could be management and it 518 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,080 could be management, right? But these guys have done a 519 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,720 really good job, really good job of it. 520 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,720 So we should give them the opportunity to see what they can 521 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,320 do to come back. Market doesn't care about that, 522 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,560 though. Market's going to sell on the 523 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,280 news, right? Market's forward-looking, yeah, 524 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,840 You know, unfortunately. Done. 525 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,200 It's baked in, it's baked in now. 526 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,320 So you know, so now everybody wants to know well what how bad 527 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,720 is the impact? And it's hard to say with the 528 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,760 information we got and we're really just grasping at strolls 529 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,360 here. But but I try to give it a go 530 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,200 and, and I decided that for now, I'm backing out. 531 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,920 So I sold my stock. And but that doesn't mean I 532 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,920 think the company's going to do badly. 533 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,640 I just think it's, you know, a wise thing to do. 534 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,040 And, you know, I'm sure they'll come up with a plan to resolve 535 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,400 this and, and, you know, they'll get back into it again. 536 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,600 And this is mining it mining has these problems. 537 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,720 Projects, they all, you know, we always say project get delayed, 538 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,800 projects will be late and they will overrun on costs. 539 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,400 You're always guaranteed that to happen on every project. 540 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,680 This one kind of that's happening maybe a little bit 541 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,040 later in the cycle. We're really in operation, which 542 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,440 is not good, but there's so much expansion going on within, 543 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,640 within this, you know, mining complex here. 544 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,640 It's something that I'm sure that they'll be able to deal 545 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:54,280 with in the medium term. Yeah, yeah, it's we're always 546 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,840 forward-looking for sure. But I don't think any other 547 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,080 company could have could have done what what has been done in 548 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,160 this part of the world to actually bring this operation 549 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,960 online in the 1st place and. The market needs to be patient 550 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,360 because if they, you know, and I and I guess that's the danger. 551 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,120 That's what happened with the pressure users. 552 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,040 You know, I know what it's like with these things. 553 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,560 Yeah. You know, when you're on the 554 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,520 side of this, something like this happening, you, you almost 555 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:24,640 go through a phase of denial, OK, And then acceptance, you 556 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,160 know, and anger, you know, all the phases you get when you've 557 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,120 got a terminal disease or something, you know, it's a 558 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,040 similar type of thing. And you have to be capable. 559 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,840 I mean, if you're an executive, you know, responsible for an 560 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,680 operation like this, you can't just go out there and put up. 561 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,360 You got to make sure you have all the facts and you've got to 562 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,880 have it signed off. Then you got to hear what the 563 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,000 experts say and you got to hear what your people say. 564 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,360 And then you've got to make some tough decisions and you've got 565 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,800 to think about how you're going to formulate this to the market. 566 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,440 You've got to try and do it in the best possible light, of 567 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,880 course, because you want to have a minimal impact to your 568 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:04,680 business, I mean, to your share price really, You know, if we 569 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,920 were honest about it and, and you know, if you think about the 570 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,040 concept of a company, mining company or any company, I have 571 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:19,080 this rather naive, well told us naive way of thinking about it. 572 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,360 You know the old ways you buy, you buy a company stock because 573 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,920 you believe in the future, your future, you know, and the value 574 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,360 of that stock is should be directly proportional to the 575 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,680 future value of the dividends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 576 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,240 I don't worry. I still think that way too. 577 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,040 But not not everything. Not everything's valued on DCF 578 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,360 these days in mining. But you've got all these people 579 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,560 who have to short the stock on news. 580 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,920 OK, That makes things really, really difficult, Pop. 581 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,040 Shops. So, you know, it's kind of crazy 582 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,960 that the companies, the share price dropped as much as it has 583 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,800 because you know, there's other mines that this company has 584 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,800 control of. And you know, while this is a 585 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,520 big part of it, it's, it's not 20%. 586 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,120 Right. Yeah. 587 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:09,040 The the, the, the one part of everything that that couldn't 588 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,320 help but notice, Neil, any commentary was and it relates to 589 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,440 press releases, but Turner's law of mining press releases. 590 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:16,720 Now, I actually haven't heard of this before. 591 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,600 I'm, you know, I'd love to, I'd love to just just hear you tell 592 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,880 me about that and that relates. There's a there's a newsletter 593 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,640 writer by the name of Mark Turner. 594 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:26,800 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 595 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,400 And he's he's the one who's always said that, you know, if, 596 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,240 if a mining company has to put out, given the mining company 597 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,640 has to put out. Boyd News always has to always 598 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,880 present news in the best possible light, you know, So if 599 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,320 it's bad news that comes out, it must be very bad. 600 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,040 OK. Indeed, All right. 601 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,200 And I guess it's tongue in cheek, but it's true. 602 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,880 You know, unfortunately, you know, we've seen that before 603 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,120 with, you know, with many companies, you know, that have 604 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,960 to release bad news. You know, there's that 605 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,480 Australian, my Capricorn. Yeah, well, 29 medals can be 606 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,560 gone, Copper. Right, 31 medals. 607 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,800 Yeah, OK, It just got worse somewhere such. 608 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,080 A great yeah, I mean, there's a perfect example yeah. 609 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:25,320 OK, it's sometimes that happens and you know it's mining. 610 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,159 We mining, we say, you know, shit happens, you got to deal 611 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:33,080 with it so. So that's what happens here and. 612 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,600 And they got to deal with it and they'll get through it. 613 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,760 And hopefully the whole management team responsible for 614 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,960 this don't get fired. Hopefully they, you know, they, 615 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,000 they carry on going. And if they do get fired, it's 616 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,719 because they haven't done the right job. 617 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,560 They haven't done, haven't made the right decision. 618 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,159 They've made a bad decision. Yeah, OK. 619 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,800 But I imagine, imagine they'll survive it given the great 620 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,720 performance to date. It's in a difficult jurisdiction 621 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:05,200 as well. And that's part of the problem. 622 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,200 These sort of things, unfortunately are going to 623 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,240 happen more and more going forward because there's less and 624 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:14,400 less good mining people out there who can, who are able to 625 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,600 run mines and mining companies. You get, you get accountants and 626 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:24,240 apologies to the accountants who are CE OS and, and business 627 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:29,200 development guys and, and bank, you know, bankers who are CE OS 628 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,680 mining CE OS, but they, they don't really know much about 629 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,880 mining and, and, and it's easy to cut costs, but, but is that 630 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,280 really the right thing for the mine? 631 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,040 And, you know, you can get into the whole quagmire stuff. 632 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,840 But I think that's the biggest problem is we've got, and the 633 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,240 mining engineers we've got aren't really that good. 634 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,000 The few good ones that are out there are taken. 635 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,280 And you know, everybody who comes out of university wants to 636 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,400 become a manager tomorrow and no one really wants to do the dog 637 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,080 work, you know, and be a drill operator and A and A and a shift 638 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,720 supervisor for five years. And and you know, they want to 639 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:09,040 get promoted. And because there's no one in 640 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,480 the business doing mining, no one wants to go into mining and 641 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,200 the kids want to go into mining. There's there's less skills out 642 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,640 there. And so people get promoted 643 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,920 really fast, too fast. And they don't have the 644 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,960 experience and certain experience, you know, even 645 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,320 amongst the miners you get guys who you make, you make, you 646 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,640 know, bad decisions because they just don't have the experience. 647 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,840 They haven't had enough time learning from the old timers how 648 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,720 to how to mine and what to look for when you look in a mine when 649 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:39,640 you go and visit a mine. If I was, if I, if I didn't 650 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,200 already decide to be a finance guy in Yale, I'd be listening to 651 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,800 you right now. And I'd, I'd, you know, I'd 652 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,240 just, I'd, I'd study mining engineering. 653 00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:48,400 And I know because. There's a skill. 654 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,040 Shortage. I'm going to get paid so well in 655 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,840 the future. Right. 656 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,720 But the thing, but I mean the number of of guys, you know, I 657 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,480 take a lot of respect for the old time and minor guys who 658 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,160 didn't go through and didn't get a degree in mining. 659 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,040 And they they are sidelined, you know, because other guys have 660 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,720 degrees, but they're the ones with the real experience. 661 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,960 They're the ones who teach the people with degrees something. 662 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080 But it takes time to do that. And if the young guys are high 663 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,560 fire, he's going to take the highest job. 664 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,800 I mean most of most young mining people that take the highest 665 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,360 paying job they can get. Yeah, sometimes what you need to 666 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:26,680 run, yeah. Yeah. 667 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,520 And so you end up with people running mines who we have half 668 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,280 the experience that should be. And then these sort of things 669 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,280 happen or they have a great control problem and the mine has 670 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,400 to close down because they never, they never did the, they 671 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,600 never did their homework properly. 672 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,520 Oh. Yeah, yeah. 673 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,080 So it's not surprising. So it's not surprising that this 674 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,560 sort of thing could happen even with a large company like 675 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,160 Ivanhoe. You would hope that you guys 676 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,320 would attract the best. But you know, it's this. 677 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,520 Mine is in the DRC. It's not that easy to work 678 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,560 there. You know, I've got friends 679 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,480 who've worked out being there. It's not. 680 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,800 There's better places in the world you can work. 681 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,360 And so they have to pay very well and they may not get the 682 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,520 right people there. I don't know if they can. 683 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,880 I know I've turned down a couple of Congolese jobs. 684 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:21,920 I went to the Congo earlier this year. 685 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:27,000 I didn't make it to to cooler Ocamo, but but yeah, that was a 686 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:31,520 an absolutely transcendental experience flying into 687 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,200 Lumumbashi airport, I tell you that much. 688 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,960 I mean, I do love, don't get me wrong. 689 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,560 I love parts of the DRC, you know, but Lumumbashi area and 690 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,640 the copper belt area, I don't. I don't love. 691 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:50,960 Yeah. Unbelievable. 692 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,400 Neil, this has been an absolute privilege to, to get your 693 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,440 insights. And you know, I'm, I'm certainly 694 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:57,920 very grateful. I'm sure our audience will be 695 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,560 extremely grateful that you've been generous enough to, to 696 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,960 share your, you know, your, your, your views, reading 697 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,360 between the lines and tying it all in with your decades of real 698 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,480 mining experience. Extremely valuable. 699 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,800 If anyone's interested in in finding Neil is prolific on 700 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,240 Twitter, I'll put a link in the in the shower notes. 701 00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,760 But thank you so much, Neil. This has been, this has been 702 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,840 absolutely. Travis was good talking to you 703 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,600 and hope to talk to you again sometime. 704 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,480 Mate, how good was that insight? Unreal. 705 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,320 Unreal. Yeah, Neil is just like an 706 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,720 absolute wealth of technical knowledge. 707 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,960 Very generous to share, share his insights with us, I think. 708 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,520 And it was interesting, right. One thing we didn't even cover 709 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,360 with him, but I've been thinking about mate, it's. 710 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,680 Just like. You know, there's been this like 711 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,560 real flurry of, of unexpected disruptions in mining operations 712 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,680 lately, especially in Africa as well. 713 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,080 Not just Kokola, but like in the last few months I've noticed 714 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,920 obviously Alfman's biasing mine when that got suspended because 715 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,600 the rebels got close. Cyrus Bulama, I got suspended 716 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,480 when farmers protested of all things, Sibanya's Cloof mine, 717 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,720 waste failure in the shaft. I'm pretty sure all those things 718 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,720 were within the last couple of months alone. 719 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,720 It's pretty brutal for the mining companies out there, so I 720 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,640 think there's a sort of lesson to expect the unexpected if 721 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,440 you're in the mining business. That is a good saying. 722 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,320 I think we should put that one on the wall, mate. 723 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,200 I like that. Yeah, it's it's interesting, 724 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,200 right? You think about it because the 725 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:30,520 best preparation you can have to be ready for the unexpected is 726 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,920 actually just making sure that your insurance policies are 727 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,240 appropriate for your mines bespoke risks. 100% mate, mining 728 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:40,920 companies cannot afford to have insurance policies that are not 729 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,440 up to scratch. I just don't think it's 730 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,360 conducive to a good night, good night's sleep if you're a minor 731 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,720 right and the worst thing about it is it hits you when you can 732 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:52,400 least afford to be hit. That's. 733 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,600 Why you got to call CRE insurance JD they have the. 2. 734 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,040 Gurus. The gurus. 735 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,040 In mining and construction insurance for underground for 736 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,600 open pit or infrastructure projects, gurus, get yourself 737 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,840 covered for all possibilities. The unexpected things is what 738 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:08,960 you've got to be worried about, mate. 739 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,240 Gets even better mate. They don't do cookie cutter 740 00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:13,440 solutions. Tailored. 741 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,640 We're talking tailored solutions, right for your 742 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,520 company, right for your situation, right for your mind, 743 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,920 right for all the risks you are going to face, the ones you know 744 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,760 about, the ones you don't know about. 745 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,320 And we're talking dealing with experts. 746 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,200 Quick and easy claims mate. I think every, every mining 747 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,400 disruption, it's you didn't expect it. 748 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,080 If you expected it probably would have happened. 749 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,520 You know, that's like everyone thinks that their policies have 750 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,480 sufficient coverage and then something comes up and it was 751 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,520 like, oh, damn it, if only I had bespoke insurance brokers that 752 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,000 properly understand the bespoke mining risk of the jurisdiction 753 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,880 and operation that I have and can ensure my policies are 754 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,480 adequate and can price things appropriately. 755 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,680 Oh, wait, they exist, mate. It's called CRE insurance. 756 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:53,960 Oh, by the way, mining contractors, mining service 757 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,040 providers gets even better because because they understand 758 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,120 mining, it means that they will get you better policies at a 759 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,320 better price. Thanks for the support CRE. 760 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,120 Go CRE right now to the conversation with Koala. 761 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:11,600 Have you got any thoughts? Not a mining engineer, so hard 762 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,000 to want to be guarded in my comments because it's not my 763 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,920 area of expertise. I know the I've no people to be 764 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,880 exceptional and straightforward operators. 765 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,520 I think that they wouldn't have had a site visit that I 766 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,760 understand they cancelled or anything if they thought that 767 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,080 the initial seismic was going to continue. 768 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,720 And I think this is one of these just very unfortunate 769 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:42,160 situations. And you know what? 770 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,480 I will use Alpha man when Goma felt M23 or when the mindset is 771 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,840 an example. The market hates a void of 772 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,840 information and uncertainty. You have a spike of uncertainty 773 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,840 if you take the complete bullish case, it's ah, there's so much 774 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,800 copper there. One or two quarters doesn't 775 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,880 change the NAV on a 40 year mine life. 776 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,640 I do think there's levers to pull given the Kapushi ramp that 777 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,760 should generate some cash. We'll look forward in two to 778 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,360 three years. And even if a portion of Kakula 779 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,320 is sterilized, there's enough levers to pull there that you 780 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,800 can push more Kamoa, maybe push more Kakula West, develop one or 781 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,240 the other. Like I mean, there's like 6 782 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:31,000 different proposed mines just in the Kamola joint venture area. 783 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:36,320 You can go pull in, it'll be lower grade or, but you can keep 784 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,640 those mills full. It might take a little while in 785 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,840 a worst case scenario to get those mills filled again. 786 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,040 But I mean, look, it's, it's not great, but it feels like one of 787 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,720 these classic, the stock could be down 20 to 3040% initially 788 00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:57,400 and we wake up in 12 months and it's recovered 60 to 70% of that 789 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,840 damage as we just get more clarity and disclosure and 790 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,840 understanding what it is. I mean, another good example is 791 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,560 when Glencore DOJ happened, stocks down 10%. 792 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:13,680 It was down 5-6 billion in market cap from memory in July 793 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,800 2018. And then when we finally get the 794 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,520 settlement like five years later, it's it's not even $2 795 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,240 billion. And it's like, why'd we freak 796 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:24,760 out? It's like, because the market 797 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,200 just hates a void. So I'm looking at Ivanhoe very 798 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,720 carefully. You don't get chances to buy 799 00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,800 world class opportunities on sale. 800 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,960 Even if it's got a little bit of a scratch on it now potentially, 801 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:47,000 it's still a world class district opportunity and team. 802 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:50,280 How good was that from both, both both Neil and the Koala and 803 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,920 a full episode with the koala with everything except for that 804 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,880 little quip is going to be out either Saturday or Sunday this 805 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:58,160 weekend. So stay tuned for that one. 806 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,120 JD, we've got some partners to thank. 807 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,560 We do thank you to the awesome partners at Mineral Mining 808 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,600 Services, MMS, Grounded, Sandvik Ground Support, CRE Insurance, K 809 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,120 Drill, KCA Side Services, Cross Boundary Energy and Black 810 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,160 Diamond. Service. 811 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,400 If you don't like it, you can always become a recruiter it 812 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:24,120 sounds like. That's that's easy. 813 00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:28,280 Yeah, well, you know, you know, that's a very valid point. 814 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,360 All right mate, I wasn't sure. If you were calling to just let 815 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,000 me know or like I was actually recording what I was like, oh 816 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,680 shit, what I realised. Yeah, well, I was thinking. 817 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,760 In my head it would be funny as if if I put on some voice and 818 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,680 just pretend I'm some rando and my friend told me to call you to 819 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,680 get like a job and I'm just asking a bunch of dumb ass 820 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,000 questions. But then when you answered. 821 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,280 Oh hey, Travis, you threw me off and I was like, there goes my 822 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:49,880 whole stick.