1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,240 Righto money miners. That's not enough, Ellie, the 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:06,560 three of us put all together. Man. 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,480 We got one man 321. Righto money mines. 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,880 Three make one. Three makes 1 almost got. 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,880 Daddy. There you go guys. 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:18,640 We got like a bit of variety show today. 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,720 We got global news out of China. We've got deals, we've got 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,240 financings. It's all happening. 9 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:28,920 It's like a Christmas pageant. Super large caps, very small 10 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,320 micro caps, and a bit in between. 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,680 Ally your. Specialty Trav going right down 12 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,120 into the micro cap plan right this. 13 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,440 Is, yeah, on the lower threshold of what I normally talk about, 14 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,880 but it's kind of an interesting thing. 15 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,960 It's one for the silver bugs too, but all lead bugs. 16 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,560 Don't think there's any lead bugs out there, but yeah, like 17 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:48,640 Keen to. Can you talk about it? 18 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,960 Keen for Christmas too. We're we're on the home 19 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,440 straight. We're close, We're close. 20 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,440 Business days left. Yeah, we're counting. 21 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,840 Some big news out of China, Yeah, no. 22 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,320 So. Big article out today that I 23 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,800 think bloody everyone, everyone would have seen and certainly 24 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,520 the markets, I would have seen the news out of China signalling 25 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,400 bolder stimulus for next year as Trump returns. 26 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,360 So the Politburo, I'm not sure I'm saying that correctly, which 27 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,120 is basically the the ruling Communist Party's most senior 28 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,120 sort of 24 officials led by President Xi announced I will 29 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,760 embrace a moderately loose strategy for monetary policy in 30 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:32,160 2025 S signalling more rate cuts ahead and shifting from a from a 31 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,280 prudent strategy that's been held for nearly 14 years to now 32 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,200 a moderately loose strategies. This is why all the lithium 33 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,400 stocks are up early. Yeah, this is but everything you 34 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:47,880 know, not just case metals, lithium, everything's up massive 35 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,480 commodity price wise, most things are up, you know, a 36 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,440 percent, 2 percent, 3% and and the equities even more so about. 37 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,840 Time like jeez. That's like a little China Santa 38 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:00,840 rally. It's the first. 39 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,000 Day that commod stocks are looking like meme stocks. 40 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,240 Will it hold though? We've been talking about China 41 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,120 stimulus for a number of months now and it's it's faded pretty 42 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,000 quickly. So that is the big unanswered 43 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,320 question, hey. Yeah. 44 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,440 So want to keep an eye on Yeah. And as we sort of said, JD like 45 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,120 and, and people, you know, sort of raising the question like, 46 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,160 you know, this is all good, but very positive, but how it's 47 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,560 going to be implemented is, is not totally clear just yet. 48 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,680 So certainly one to watch, but going to one of our biggest 49 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,160 stories for today is London mining selling some of their 50 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,000 assets to go pretty much all in on to Vacuna. 51 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,960 So take us through it, JD. Yeah, an interesting sale. 52 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,800 It had been one that's flagged for for quite a while. 53 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,200 So London mining was sale Nevis Korvo and Zink Groven to 54 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,760 Boloden, Boloden being a Swedish miner. 55 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,320 So I'll give I'll give a bit of a big rundown, but the headline 56 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:59,240 is US $1.5 billion transaction. So the money miners might 57 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,560 remember we spoke about one of these assets in particular, 58 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,520 Nevis Corvo, because a lot of the Aussie miners were were 59 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,680 looking at this one. They'd been in the data room. 60 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,480 You had the likes of Mac S32 were named, I'm sure Sand Fire, 61 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:13,120 we're looking as well. Yeah. 62 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,200 So our first thoughts were how does the price stack up against 63 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,560 the recent copper transactions? We've heard a lot of CEOs of big 64 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,560 miners saying copper deals are, you know, priced pretty richly. 65 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,840 We've seen that ourselves. You know, one that comes to mind 66 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,160 that we spoke about a little while ago was the the comic cow 67 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,680 transaction. But you've seen it for really 68 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,400 fit for years now, so it was worth getting into the weeds. 69 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,440 Was this are they? Is it fit categorise these as as 70 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,040 copper? Copper mines though, are they? 71 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:48,600 No, no zinc mines. So Nevis Kovo is more copper 72 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,760 dominant, but zinc groovin literally translates from 73 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,440 Swedish to the zinc mine. Yeah. 74 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,760 And the forecast for 2024 was about 80,000 tonnes of zinc and 75 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,240 5000 tonnes of copper from the from that operation. 76 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,080 Gotcha. So to to give the run through on 77 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,000 the miners and the assets just quickly because I don't think a 78 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,440 lot of the Aussie listeners will be too familiar with them. 79 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,040 You've got London mining, on the one hand TSX listed, they kept 80 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,839 it just under $11 billion in Canadian terms, predominantly a 81 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,000 copper miner and this transaction makes them even more 82 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,840 so, a copper miner that are do a good bit of zinc at the moment 83 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,880 and some gold as well. They've got stakes in 84 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,280 Candelaria, Casarones, Chapada and more. 85 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:35,800 And of course, the big VHB deal which you touched on there Ally 86 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,600 being in the the Vacuna. So from the moment they, they, 87 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,160 they announced that Vacuni transaction BHB that they always 88 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,080 said, OK, we're going to we're going to sell down our other 89 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,560 assets in order to kind of yeah, forward to pathway ahead to 90 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,080 fund. Yeah, and they need to 91 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:50,920 development. Here of. 92 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:54,480 To delever a bit before that, that big CapEx cycle is that 93 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,200 that's sort of anticipated to start in 26 and you know a lot 94 00:04:58,200 --> 00:04:59,680 of money's going to go into the ground there. 95 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,440 Hi is Maria to kick things off and then yeah, there's still a 96 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,520 fair bit of way come to the bridge when it comes to you lead 97 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,600 us all to. Yeah, absolutely. 98 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,000 So of course you've got the Lundin family there as well, 99 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,680 about 15% of of the stock in Lundin mining. 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,400 Then you've got Bolidin. So they're a Swedish miner and 101 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,440 smelter importantly. So we've got a bit of vertical 102 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,320 integration there. Market cap in Aussie dollar 103 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,400 terms around 13 billion operations, mainly in 104 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,120 Scandinavia, but they've got the Tara mine, which is pretty well 105 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,200 known in Ireland as well, actually shut down not too long 106 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,440 ago and it's getting restarted. So strong zinc focus and then 107 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,320 sort of copper comes in behind that. 108 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,000 Learning more about Boledin. It was, you know, one, one of 109 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,200 the first things that came to my mind is are they just trying to 110 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,080 lock in concentrate supply? You guys will remember we spoke 111 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,640 a lot of the beginning of the year of these smelters around 112 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,920 the world feeling the pinch of not being able to get their 113 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,480 hands on copper concentrate with the, you know, the likes of 114 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,880 copper Panama and other minds shutting down. 115 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,440 We saw a dramatic fall off in the TCR CS that these these 116 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:04,040 smelters charge. And you know that that is no 117 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,480 different in in Europe that was predominantly focused in in 118 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,400 China, but we saw in Indonesia and a bit in India as well. 119 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:10,640 But it's it's no different up here. 120 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,520 And that means the the smelting part of their business has kind 121 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,680 of been suffering. And the answer I kind of came to 122 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,960 you on that was like in part, yes, they're definitely trying 123 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:20,840 to address that. But that is a bit of a longer 124 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,480 term view because of course the operations that are being bought 125 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,200 here have contracts in place already that you can't just 126 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,320 change. A lot of the supply was actually 127 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,160 going to Bolidian already. So it doesn't change and the 128 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,080 other stuff was contracted out. So it's going to take some time 129 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,920 before you self get your hands on that to bind the mines. 130 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,680 I would have thought the dynamics in the smelting market 131 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,440 like the you have TTRC or whatever, it's like a short term 132 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,120 phenomenon because it's just a, you know, like you can't have a 133 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,520 long term, a long term like downstream smelting industry 134 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,480 that's unprofitable. Eventually you'll have supply 135 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,960 curtailment, less smelters available, the ones that remain 136 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,880 more profitable. But there's there's just been 137 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,520 like a lack of, yeah, shutdowns in some of these unprofitable 138 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,120 smelters, virtual, whatever industrial policy settings are 139 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,560 in these countries at the time. But that doesn't last forever. 140 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:09,640 That's just a short term phenomenon. 141 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,600 Nah, people aren't going to be attracted, you know, sort of one 142 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,880 O 1 to to a market that's that's uneconomic. 143 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,200 And that that plays out over over quite a while with with a 144 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,880 bit of sort of influence from, from governments, right? 145 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,960 Like you look at Indonesia and the government forced them to 146 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,960 build that, that smell to the Freeport one and those sorts of 147 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,320 things. So there's, you know, you see 148 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,120 that in in commodity markets. So tell us about the the two 149 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,720 assets that all in of buying off London? 150 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:35,760 Yeah. So what are they? 151 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,720 We'll start with the the Portuguese asset. 152 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,480 This was the one that the Aussie miners were rumoured to be more 153 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,680 interested in. So it's an underground 154 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,160 operation, polymetallic, it's Avms deposit, predominantly 155 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,560 copper and zinc sitting in that western part in Portugal of the 156 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,320 Iberian pyrite belt. We've sort of been hearing for 157 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,680 quite a while, but this will be kind of consolidated. 158 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,920 So the the 2024 guns like I said just under 30,000 tonnes of 159 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,200 copper and 115,000 tonnes of zinc. 160 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,760 C1 costs around about two bucks USA pound in copper terms plus 161 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,040 110 million in CapEx. So that is, you know, that is 162 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,720 not the norm. That is a big swing of CapEx to 163 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,560 get the operation kind of humming again. 164 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,720 It's got 2 processing plants. Given the polymetallic nature I 165 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,240 think of Adriatic and these sorts of operations, you've got 166 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,600 your copper and then your zinc which can do a bit of copper as 167 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,040 well, a 2.8 and a 2.5 million tonne per annum plant. 168 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,280 And it was interesting, they noted in the call, this one 169 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,440 actually produces a a dirty sort of con with elements that 170 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,600 attract a a penalty. What are they like arsenic or 171 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,039 what's? The, I'd imagine arsenic they 172 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:44,880 didn't sort of reveal, but yeah, they sort of household names 173 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:46,720 when it, when it comes to those sorts of stuff. 174 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,320 So underground mining's been happening here for over 30 years 175 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,720 now. So it's, it's got a long life, 176 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,960 but unfortunately four people have died in, in the past four 177 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,560 years. So not up to scratch, needless 178 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:01,280 to kind of say. And let's let's hope that can be 179 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:05,400 stopped going forward. Well, I didn't also call this an 180 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,560 asset that sits on the 75th percentile. 181 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,320 So it's it's not often a company will call out an operation that 182 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,320 they're buying as being between the 3rd and 4th quartile. 183 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,600 So I mean, good on them for that that sort of disclosure. 184 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,360 But yeah, by no means is this a stand out asset. 185 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,880 And if you just do back at the envelope math on 2024 numbers, 186 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:30,160 assuming a $4.00 a # copper price, this makes less than $15 187 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,840 million. Again, with the big caveat that 188 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,640 that is a large amount of CapEx and that's that's not the norm. 189 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,760 So cash flow should improve going forward, but high cost 190 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,680 curve like a few of the other operations that that Bulladin 191 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,000 own, which leaves you susceptible to the to the swings 192 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,680 in commodity prices. Then you've got the other asset 193 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:54,480 in Sweden, zinc proven. So again, polymetallic right in 194 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,360 Bullidon's backyard. Lundin actually bought this 20 195 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,920 years ago from Rio Tinto. This mine has a huge history. 196 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,320 It's been in continuous operation since 1857. 197 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,920 So it's deep now. Three shafts go down. 198 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,280 They're operating around 1300 metres below the ground. 199 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,920 And like I said, 80,000 tonnes of sync guidance with 5000 200 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,360 tonnes of copper guidance. In zinc terms, we're talking 201 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,920 cash costs of $0.45 + 65,000,000 CapEx. 202 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,360 So again, back in the envelope, that's about $100 million in 203 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,480 cash flow for the year. So not too bad at all. 204 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,760 And just on where this sits in the cost curve in the middle of 205 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:38,000 the second quarter, so much more competitive than than Nevis core 206 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,680 though and you know notably these assets don't have a 207 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:44,960 massive mine life less than 10 years where we're talking about. 208 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,880 It's based off current reserves but exactly but the like. 209 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,840 It's been operation since 1850s. Yeah, so keeps going. 210 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,960 So with zinc riven, there's a strong expectation that 211 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,280 resources will convert to reserve. 212 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,360 You don't have quite the same confidence with with Nevis 213 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,600 Cuovo, it's it's a bit higher. There hasn't historically been 214 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,000 as good a carryover from reserves to from resources to 215 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,160 reserves rather. But I think there's an 216 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,080 expectation in buying these assets, you know, that that the 217 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,240 life will go on for for a bit longer and. 218 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,920 What about the, what about the the price tag here? 219 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,760 Supporters paying US 1.5 billion, right? 220 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,080 That's yeah. When you kind of just like think 221 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,720 of the multiples here. Is it screen? 222 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,280 Is it screen fully valued? Is it screen cheap? 223 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,160 It's, it's kind of interesting, right? 224 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,000 So, but where I came to ultimately is that it's kind of 225 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,680 at the upper end of what you'd call fair, but there's, you 226 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,200 know, always many ways you can sort of slice and dice it. 227 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,800 So 1.3 billion is what they're paying upfront on a sort of cash 228 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,040 free basis. You might see 1.37 quoted. 229 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,880 There's a little bit of sort of money that'll sit in the account 230 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,520 that they'll kind of pay for as well, plus 150 million in 231 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,440 contingent payments. It's not subject to too many 232 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,240 things given it's not the core assets of either of these these 233 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,040 companies, but getting getting into the sort of multiple and 234 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,920 how they talk about it followed in forecast 300 million to 350 235 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,520 million EBITDA over each of the next five years. 236 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,160 So if you're if you're conservative on price forecasts 237 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,800 and therefore you don't assume the contingent $150 million 238 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,040 payment and you take the lower of the 300 to $350 million 239 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,360 forecast that they assume over each of the next five years, 240 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,120 you're talking about 4.3 times EBITDA. 241 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,160 Now that's you know that's, that's definitely worth looking 242 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,520 at a bit closer because these two operations did in 2023 a 243 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,040 $195 million in EBITDA. So if you're looking on those 244 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,160 numbers, just looking back 6.7 times and you know these 245 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,800 operations that have been working for for quite some time, 246 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,400 so you can get a good feel for it. 247 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,440 Like I said, they did come out of that cycle of heightened 248 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:02,800 CapEx. So that adds a bit of 249 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,360 conservatism to it. Interestingly, listening to the 250 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,920 call in that number 300 to $350 million, the company said 251 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,840 they've assumed no synergistic benefits and that that kind of 252 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,760 surprised me. It's good to say it's, it's 253 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,840 conservative. Like I firmly believe there will 254 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,800 be synergies here. You can say that because London 255 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,240 are paying Boledin right now, the TCRC, so that in time will 256 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,760 be scratched and there will be some sort of synergies. 257 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,000 But again you've got you've got more than $100 million 258 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,560 difference from what the operations did in 2023 to what 259 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:37,240 these guys are assuming going forward. 260 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,360 And you want to dig into that, you want to understand whether 261 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,040 that comes from the consensus pricing assumptions or are they 262 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,720 assuming cost improvements, volume growth, these sorts of 263 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,160 things. It was a little bit frustrating 264 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,360 on the call on this point because the company just kept on 265 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,200 referring back to the point that they don't own the assets yet. 266 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,880 They can't comment on costs, they can't come on on this, they 267 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,960 can't come on on this. So it was kind of hard to hard 268 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,560 to work out. And they also didn't specify 269 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:07,880 exactly what the consensus cost price forecasts that they're 270 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,000 using are. The one detail they did give 271 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,880 though, that it doesn't exceed the contingent payments, which 272 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,160 means it's below 4 bucks, 50 copper and retreating in the 273 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:23,280 coming years and on the zinc side of things below $1.40 274 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,760 rather a pound and retreating over the years to come. 275 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,920 Gotcha. I've got two points to make 276 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,800 there. One's just in relation to like 277 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,960 EBITDA, What's not captured there is the term CapEx. 278 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,880 Whenever, whenever a company runs a sale process on assets 279 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,640 that they're selling, I always assume that the seller halts a 280 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,280 lot of CapEx in the the six months before the the sale 281 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:45,440 complete. So there's probably some catch 282 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,520 up CapEx to to embark on here as well. 283 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,880 Completely, Graham, it's kind of the kind of the human thing to 284 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,040 do which makes it all the more interesting because of course 285 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,720 you know Bolodin are going to want to say they got a good 286 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,800 deal, but they were very firm in saying this has come at the end 287 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,560 of the CapEx cycle. 110 million is not the norm that, that is 288 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,440 big. But you know, like like we said, 289 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,520 it's, it's not a stand out asset and there's a good chance more, 290 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,640 more capital will need to go into it. 291 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,800 We'll, we'll kind of see. The other point is just on the, 292 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,120 the, the copper price there. So it's a contingent payment 293 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,560 above 4450. So yeah, this is one of the 294 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,040 interesting bits of feedback that came out of some of the the 295 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,680 analyst site visits to the like the Chilean kind of copper 296 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,800 assets of of BHP etcetera. That happened I think 2 weeks 297 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,080 ago now. It's like well reported now that 298 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,240 BHP is using a long term copper price in real terms forecast of 299 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,960 4 bucks, 50 to make investment decisions in, in real dollars, 300 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,080 which is so, yeah, pretty interesting. 301 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,680 It's above, it's above consensus, but that's that's 302 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,600 where BHP sits. And that will have an economic 303 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,640 model to to point to, to suggest that. 304 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,360 But yeah, 100% you've you've kind of got to got to have your 305 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,400 own views as a miner. I did see in the past couple of 306 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,760 weeks a few people dial back there the copper forecasts for 307 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:10,040 sort of 25 and 26 again as as you know China impacts and these 308 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:11,520 sorts of things that come into account it's. 309 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,120 Just when you look at the development assets you like the 310 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,280 all of these assets need like $5 plus copper to justify 311 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,880 developments. Yeah, absolutely. 312 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,440 Digging into how these guys are financing it is kind of 313 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:22,920 interesting. So they're going to pay for it 314 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,280 with a bridge line to start with and then they're going to 315 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,760 refinance this with a share issue corresponding to half the 316 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,920 value. So they're flagged straight up 317 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,480 that they're going to raise about, you know, what could be 318 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,680 US $650 million be replacement or or rights issue, which is 319 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,640 more common in in Sweden does need approval. 320 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,360 They need to speak with the the owners of the business and that 321 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,960 could be carried out in the first half of next year. 322 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,520 But it's not a super ASX type thing to to sort of see 323 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:50,920 different. Yeah, you're doing a 324 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,840 transaction, you're doing it today and you can raise capital 325 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,880 in six months time. That's not something you see 326 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,920 every day. And it, it also does beg the 327 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,000 question on the, the dividend. They've, they've paid dividends 328 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,000 for, for quite some time. They sort of consistently do 329 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:11,960 that, but they're expanding upon their net debt to, you know, 330 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,640 their gearing ratios on a few different sort of metrics going 331 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,839 out of the bands that they kind of provide, which does kind of 332 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:19,800 bring about the question like why didn't you just sort of 333 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,440 minimise or sort of pause the dividend if you knew you were 334 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,599 going to do a transaction like this? 335 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:28,200 And again, they, they sort of pointed to these kind of Swedish 336 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,880 rules where you can't speak with the owners of the business 337 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,400 whilst you're engaged in a transaction. 338 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,000 I hope it doesn't come from a place of apprehension to stop 339 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,120 the dividend kind of at all costs, because in the long run 340 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:42,320 that that just costs you more. You end up paying more in fees 341 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,880 to raise the capital, you know, via issuing yet on top of having 342 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,480 the overhang which could force the stock in itself down over 343 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,920 the next six months. But we'll see on that one is a 344 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,680 few sort of intricacies and a few learnings on on my part in 345 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,200 this one, given it's a a Swedish company and things that are a 346 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,360 bit different to how companies operate in Australia. 347 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,520 So overall your your takeaways on the deal, Good, bad, 348 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,280 indifferent. It's gone back from from 349 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,520 Bulletin's perspective to start from the from the buyers 350 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,840 perspective going going back to the price, these, these are 351 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,640 producing assets with a long history. 352 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,080 If we're conservative, we look at 2023 copper averaged about 3 353 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,720 bucks 85 a pound, zinc about $1.20 a pound. 354 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,720 That's a 7 times EV to EBITDA transaction. 355 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,440 Like I sort of said, that is at. Seven times EBITDA, you don't 356 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,800 have to say 7 times EBITDA. DLAV is the value. 357 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:45,120 My bad. That's right at 7 times EBITDA 358 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,920 transaction. So that that's the that's the 359 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,640 upper end of what you'd kind of call fair. 360 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,760 Looking at the brokers Navs, it gets kind of interesting. 361 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,600 There is a massive range. Obviously this comes down to the 362 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,640 the assumptions they've each plugged into it. 363 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,440 But you're getting some brokers calling it .7 times, some 364 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,160 calling it 1.6 times. Looking at the the blue sky 365 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,360 briefly, it's not not how we tend to kind of operate, but 366 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,240 there are definitely potential synergies. 367 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,600 Like I've sort of mentioned you've got potential commodity 368 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,520 outside and optionality in the mine lifes. 369 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:23,120 You know specifically looking at zinc ruven, there is a strong 370 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:26,480 likelihood that this will sort of see multiple cycles. 371 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,480 And operationally there was also this tone throughout the call 372 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,680 that they believe they can pull down OpEx. 373 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,120 They didn't say it explicitly, but they kept on kind of hinting 374 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:41,200 at it remains to be seen on that part whether they can do it. 375 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:43,200 All of those things are blue sky. 376 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,120 You don't want to have to pay for for any of them. 377 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:48,360 So that kind of feel is you wouldn't have wanted to pay any 378 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:53,680 any kind of more than they have, especially extending your your 379 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,440 leverage to buy assets that are in, you know, the 75th 380 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,200 percentile. That's that's a risky strategy 381 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,720 and can put you in a bit of strife down the track down the 382 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,360 track. Rather you know these these 383 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,560 multiples are. A lot higher than we talked 384 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,680 about with the coal sales over the over the past year. 385 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,600 No surprise in that one. But you know, I think there's a 386 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,880 chance that this one sort of turns out well. 387 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,200 They they make cash in their. Backyard, right? 388 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,240 These are Swedish miners that bought Yeah, good, you know, 200 389 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,080 year operating zinc mine in Sweden. 390 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,680 Yeah, they'll have a great understanding from it. 391 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,640 They've got smelters in in the vicinity particularly again on 392 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,480 zinc riven. I think it makes more sense than 393 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,480 it would have to any other minor out there. 394 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,080 You know, they they could reap more benefits from this than any 395 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,920 other name out there. So yeah, makes sense on that 396 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,160 part. And for the London side of the 397 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,680 equation, again, this was super expected, very much in line with 398 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,000 the the strategy that they've put forward. 399 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,320 And yeah, I mean, just helps them importantly de Lever before 400 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,160 that big CapEx cycle, it simplifies the business, 401 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:03,280 America's focus, they're not got assets in Europe anymore. 402 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,360 And you know, from an earnings perspective, you're giving up 403 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,080 that short term. I think analysts were sort of 404 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:13,080 calling it 20% of their EBITDA in the near term for the Vicuna 405 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,120 optionality for the big price in the long term. 406 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,680 And, you know, I think that's the kind of right way to go 407 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,160 about it. I think it was the one. 408 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,520 I don't know which one might be, I don't remember which London it 409 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,600 was, but there was like a quote that every every mine that he 410 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,760 ever sold, he regretted. It was like, you know, a quote 411 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,680 about that. And that's why the family has a 412 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,880 reputation of being like very long term thinkers because 413 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,120 there's but you know, you're making this decision to sell 414 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,600 these mines because you've got the bigger picture long term in 415 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,960 mind in in Vicuna. Yeah, yeah, there's a trade off 416 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,560 you can you can see on their websites just scrolling through 417 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,480 like 10K in the, in the DSA was one of them. 418 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,200 There's yeah, there's a number of them and it's interesting 419 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,080 history for this this company. But yeah, we sort of say you've 420 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,480 got to kind of give up, give up one thing to keep it all in 421 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:55,920 balance to to go for the bigger prize. 422 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,440 Next one, absolutely, just chatting. 423 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,080 We've got a lot happening all over the world as part of this 424 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,280 deal. We've got, you know, selling 425 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,000 base metals assets in Sweden and Portugal, put in that money to 426 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,560 copper assets in South America. I mean, the only guy I know 427 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,600 who's this global, other than the very infamous Mr Worldwide 428 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,320 people is Minings. Mr Worldwide, Steve Tarr from 429 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,560 CRE. I mean, look at it Tari, Tari 430 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,760 sorting out insurance policies for all sorts of mines, all 431 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,080 sorts of commodities all over the world. 432 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,160 And not just I know we talk about the producing mines a lot 433 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,040 with CRA, but they can help out at the explosion and development 434 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,560 end as well. But also even all the drilling 435 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,880 engineering and all the other contractors that you know 436 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,320 service these projects too. So they're bespoke and 437 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,480 comprehensive if. The service providers need 438 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,040 insurance big time. Everyone needs insurance. 439 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,240 Everyone needs it. Sometimes people don't pay like 440 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:50,600 you just got to be you have insurance. 441 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,480 Got to be all over it. So you want the CRA team on it. 442 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,120 It's bespoke, comprehensive, it's tailored to your project, 443 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,440 your business. What more could you want? 444 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,160 Ellie, I can't just say it's a bit peculiar to me that you you 445 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,720 draw out the parallel between Pitbull and Taree because while 446 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,720 Taree is CR ES Mr Worldwide, I actually think you're doing an 447 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,600 injustice to the big man MD Dave Harrison, whose best I can tell 448 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,120 from this image here, could in fact actually be Pitbulls long 449 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,400 lost brother. Actually it could be Pitbull 450 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,120 himself. Dave, it's Pitbull. 451 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,840 Get in touch with CRE. Look at that. 452 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:32,200 Go CRE and go CRE all righty, Let's go down the the market cap 453 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,720 scale and. Just a little bit. 454 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,520 And bring it back home to to Western Australia as well. 455 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,520 And talk about Boab Meadows Boab. 456 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,880 Yeah, mate, this is, yeah, a story for the small cap silver 457 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,960 bugs out there. JDL. 458 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,800 It's, it's some of those projects it's been kind of 459 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,880 hammering away for, for years trying to get finance, but it's 460 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,720 never quite gotten there. It's Boab Boab Metals and 461 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,320 they're Sobby Hills silver lead deposit right at the top of of 462 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,560 WA there. It's, it's near the NT border 463 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,920 and it's about 50 kilometres north of of Kananara. 464 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,840 Boab. They, they own 75% interest in 465 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,800 the, in the Sobby Hills project, but they also have an option to 466 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,560 acquire the remaining 25% too. And it's just got a mere market 467 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,080 cap of $35 million. The stock went up 15% today on 468 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,760 the back of a a prepaid deal with traffic Euro commodity 469 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,920 trader. And in a nutshell, traffic has 470 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,840 agreed to give Boab US $30 million upfront. 471 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,120 Traffic will will get paid back within a five year term 472 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,600 following like a 18 month interest only period at a cost 473 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,360 of so far plus 5% margin. The key here is like traffic 474 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:39,480 will get their their hands on 75% of Sorby Hills concentrate, 475 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,800 which is, you know, at the moment Boab's kind of entire 476 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,680 share. And if Boab actually ups for you 477 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,000 know, alternatives or the OR financial close doesn't isn't 478 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,880 achieved, traffic still gets a share of the concentrate. 479 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,880 So as usual, the trade is always a win, but sometimes you could 480 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:58,360 win too. But. 481 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,080 You've got to put fur on the table, so let's look at the 482 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,400 Sorby Hills project Economics. If you look at the project on 483 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,880 100% basis, Sorby Hills has a has a reserve that contains 484 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,840 19,000,000 ounces of silver and 531,000 tonnes of of lead 485 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,720 contained. The grade doesn't shoot the 486 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,800 lights out like 3.5% lead and 39 grammes per tonne silver. 487 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,640 But it was a, you know, a feed study in July which suggested a 488 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:30,280 pre tax MPV of $411 million, pre tax IRR of 37%. 489 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,320 But it's the, it's the CapEx that there's always been the big 490 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,000 obstacle for the longest time for, for Bo Lab to, to find a 491 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,640 way to fund upfront capital in the latest study is 492 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,520 $264,000,000. So when you think about, you 493 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,680 know that kind of capital intensity or even you know, just 494 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,800 your NPV to CapEx ratio, it's not, it's not the world's most 495 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,960 financeable project on, on current assumptions. 496 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,720 And then a 35 mill market cap as well makes that challenging too. 497 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,760 100% we, we, we cut our teeth in the, the equity kind of it's 498 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,200 like, yeah, to finance a project, you always think about 499 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:09,480 like a big chunk of the, the financing is going to come from, 500 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,240 from equity in some way, shape or form. 501 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,560 And, and your ability to stump up enough equity into the 502 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,120 project. It's like directly proportional 503 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:19,000 to the size of your market cap in a lot of ways. 504 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,000 Because, yeah, that's how much dilution existing shareholders 505 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,840 are willing to do. That's how you know that it's 506 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,760 just the lower your market cap, it gets really, really, really, 507 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,520 really difficult to, to raise efficient equity to fund these 508 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,240 chunky kind of CapEx numbers. Not that, not that $264,000,000 509 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,640 is a chunky CapEx number, but when you've got a 35 million. 510 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,680 Dollars in relative terms to those things. 511 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,960 Yeah, it. And Once Upon a time I thought 512 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,240 Knife was going to stamp up some money, but you know, I had a 513 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,960 look and it feels like things have gone a bit quiet on that 514 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,280 front for the last few years, which begs the question at the 515 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,600 assume commodity prices in the in the study, like the lead 516 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,200 revenue is about 3 times what the what the silver revenue is 517 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,040 in this project. So it's really a majority lead 518 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,280 project, which for the silver bugs out there just means that 519 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,560 the project actually has a negative all in sustaining cost 520 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,040 per silver oz after the lead credits. 521 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,000 But that's not how you should think about these things. 522 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,920 We know that it's. Hub for way round. 523 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:23,000 Don't let that get out. Granted, like the the spot 524 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,840 silver price is about 28% higher than the study price, but it, 525 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,040 you know, swings the other way for the lead price assumption. 526 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,000 So, you know, swings and roundabouts here. 527 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,680 So it's all up, what have you kind of come to with with the 528 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,640 project now I. Think there's just a few things 529 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,000 to keep in mind here. Like remember how I said Bulb 530 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,920 has an option to buy the remaining 25% of the project? 531 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,560 In order to do that, they'd have to stump up stage payments that 532 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,760 aggregate to $23 million to get there. 533 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,800 But that object is that that option is subject to Bulb 534 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,960 reaching FID by about September next year too. 535 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,680 They could always extend that longer if they agreed. 536 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,760 But kind of, you know, keep in mind this, there's, there's 537 00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:05,080 there's a goal to announce FID by, by September, you know, to, 538 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,960 in order to be able to, to get that option over the line. 539 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,200 If, if they can build on the financing momentum from, you 540 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520 know, the announcement today, maybe, maybe they can get there 541 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,320 too. Like I remember Sheffield had a 542 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,600 similarly insurmountable task trying to finance Thunderbird, 543 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,080 but they found a way and they, you know, that this, you know, 544 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,560 funky JV and you know, strategic partner and knife came in and 545 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,440 all of a sudden it's very undemanding market cap got like 546 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,360 sufficient CapEx to fund the development of, of Thunderbolt, 547 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,200 which seemed like impossible. So yeah, knife would make a 548 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,160 massive difference, but I'm not filled with confidence given 549 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,480 the, the, the lack of discussion about knife for a few years now. 550 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,120 Actually, I think of it as a really advanced call option, 551 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,840 like like if silver saws on the back of solid demand and, and 552 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,880 LED managers to hold up and it's a really advanced project that 553 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,200 can kind of get into production pretty quickly. 554 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,160 There's a lot of work that's been done here and you know, you 555 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,160 can, you can move pretty quickly in that environment where you've 556 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,320 got your ducks in order, right. But if, if commodity prices stay 557 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,440 where they are, then I think it could be a tricky proposition in 558 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,640 the near term to actually get the, the, the financing required 559 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,200 to, to build the project. Personally, I think the supply 560 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,800 and demand outlook for silver is is it's really healthy, but I'm 561 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,160 a bit more trepidatious about lead again, what do I know? 562 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,960 It's my commodity price forecasting this side and we we 563 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,760 can't not forget that like ladies, the vast majority of the 564 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,280 revenue. Yeah, I think it's, it's one to 565 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,280 keep on the watch list, but don't be surprised to see it 566 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,760 trade like a call option if silver moves. 567 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:52,920 Like I remember in in 2020 after COVID, this thing like like 540% 568 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,120 in like 3 months just because like silver, silver squeeze was 569 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,800 on for a period there and it's kind of giving up all of those 570 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,600 gains. You know, that's just the way 571 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,720 that kind of, you know, call option type projects trade, 572 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,000 right? All 5 silver names on the ASX 573 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,880 did I remember. Crazy shoot through the ceiling. 574 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,560 That's the point for all 5 silver names. 575 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,240 The ASX is like it doesn't have silver names and the the actual 576 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,240 silver mine is like not like, you know, we like there are 577 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,480 pureplay kind of silver miners out there or majority pureplay 578 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,120 silver miners out there. They ain't listed on the ASX. 579 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,560 Yeah. Good stuff man. 580 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,360 No, So it's so Trevor. It sounds like it's a pretty 581 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,360 advanced project. It actually reminds me of a chat 582 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,440 we had yesterday as well. I. 583 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,040 Think I know what conversation you're talking about, Ali? 584 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,040 Is it? Is it the one about the the team 585 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,600 that helps companies with advanced projects get past all 586 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,520 the red tape and get their deposits into production ASAP? 587 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,960 I think it is exactly that conversation. 588 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,880 It's actually what you think about it's actually pretty 589 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,440 awesome, right, Because say you're sitting on a project, 590 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,040 It's it's it's an advanced project, but you you don't know, 591 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,960 but you know, there's still going to be a fair bit of work 592 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,240 to get done in order to get the tick off to actually start 593 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:04,640 mining. Yeah right. 594 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,320 You can have things advanced, but there's there's still a 595 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,080 bunch of stuff you need a bit of help to get in order, right? 596 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,960 That's where a seriously capable technical services team comes 597 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,560 into the mix. I think I know which guys and 598 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,720 gals you're talking about. Is it MMS? 599 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,760 Absolutely. MMS got their new technical 600 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,920 services team. I'm even wearing the T shirt. 601 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,360 You've got the polo today. Love it. 602 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,480 We all know MMS are just the best open pit mining contractor 603 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,280 on the block right now, but it might have been used to people 604 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,520 that they have built out a technical services team that is 605 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,000 akin to the Australian Test cricket team of 2006. 606 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,040 Jeez, that's a big call. Love it. 607 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,840 They they just don't lose. You know that just like that 608 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,280 test, they didn't lose. Look at the highs lately, right? 609 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,320 Nathan, Nathan Ram, Emma Edwards, Wanderoo see Rob Seal 610 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,880 like catches win matches LAJAD and this Tech services team 611 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,960 takes a lot of catches. Well said. 612 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,120 So if you need an elite team to help you get the the house in 613 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,160 order to start moving the dirt, it's these guys and then you've 614 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,760 got the open pit expertise that overlays it all for a full turn 615 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,200 key solution. What more could you want? 616 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,760 Go MMS love the T shirt. All righty. 617 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,560 Last one for the day develop. It was little Ding Ding Ding for 618 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,000 me. So this is developed basically 619 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,000 completed all the docs for their $100 billion loan prepaid 620 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,320 facility with Traffic Gura 2 stories another another Traffic 621 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,440 Gura 1 today. Market like this one too. 622 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,720 Yeah. I wasn't sure if it was this 623 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,320 whole China thing going on because everything else was 624 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,120 maybe a bit, probably a combination. 625 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,720 Yeah. So they announced that like I 626 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,480 said before, all the documentation completed for AUS 627 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,960 $65 million prepayment loan facility with traffic to fund 628 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,360 the restart of the Woodlawn copper zinc mine up around 629 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,120 10:00-ish percent last time I looked. 630 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:08,080 And so it's basically the financing plus that's associated 631 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,960 off take agreement. All of this to be fair was all 632 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,760 announced back in back in August. 633 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,200 So it's not so much new news here, it's more the fact that 634 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,200 all the documentation is complete itself. 635 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,760 So Woodlawn is sort of now fully funded through to production, 636 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,440 just a bit of a high level refresher of the key term. 637 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,960 So traffic will give develop around $100 million Aussie in 638 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,520 the form of a prepayment slash loan facility. 639 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,720 The interest on that is BBSY, which is basically a base rate 640 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,720 plus a 2% margin and and props to them for actually stating the 641 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,440 margin. This is for a term of about 4 642 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,960 1/2 years from from drawdown. And as part of the financing, 643 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,160 they've also entered into a five year off take agreement and this 644 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,040 is for 100% of the copper, zinc and lead slash precious metals 645 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,160 cons produced from Woodlawn over this period of time. 646 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,360 That'll be all of the all of the con, right? 647 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,360 There wouldn't be anything, Yeah. 648 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,719 And so repayment of this prepaid loan facility can be done by way 649 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,800 of a set off against the payments against the off take 650 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,639 agreement or they can just pay do quarterly cash payments and 651 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:20,560 there's no repayments required for the 1st 18 months of the 652 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,719 loan. And the last couple ones is 653 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,800 develop also has the option to sell up to 20% of the output or 654 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,480 the OR the project, the Woodlawn project 2, two third parties and 655 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,520 no mandatory hedging is required. 656 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,840 So we'll just flash up the key terms for that, those two ones 657 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,560 there. At 20%, that's something that it 658 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,920 was talked about for a long time is, is selling down 20% of 659 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,560 Woodlawn. But yeah, it's kind of it's 660 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,440 been, it feels like it's been a long time he's been talking 661 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,719 about that maybe, maybe, maybe this is the catalyst. 662 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,280 Yeah. And look, yeah, like you said, 663 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,600 Trevor, it's, it's sort of a pretty common bullet point that 664 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,880 pops up in the last few, you know, investor prezzos and 665 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,800 things like that, that So perhaps now that this financing 666 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,440 is in place, that might be the the catalyst for that actually 667 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,000 in the other catalyst bank. So you know what's actually real 668 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,080 new information in today's announcement. 669 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,280 So they advised the processing plant refurb is 50% complete 670 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,600 now. I believe GI Engineering is 671 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,480 doing that. They're on track for first 672 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,640 concentrate production in the June quarter next year. 673 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,000 So all production from the underground is scheduled to 674 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,920 commence in the March quarter next year. 675 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,520 So the quarter before and the developed board has now actually 676 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,320 made a formal FI you know, FID final investment decision to 677 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,200 support the Woodlawn race start plan. 678 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,560 So I want to just briefly revisit the the project 679 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,120 economics for Woodlawn. Sorry I'm laughing just because 680 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,400 you're you're revisiting it, but I remember how many revisits 681 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,400 developed to themselves because it felt like every couple of 682 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,000 months there was an updated restart study with with a 683 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,920 higher. Maybe it's a pun intended. 684 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,960 So, so they put out an update in August when they initially 685 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:14,600 announced this financing package with with traffic and this is an 686 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,920 update on the April numbers, which basically was what's 687 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,120 changed is basically the change in the CapEx costs. 688 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,440 And because of the recently agreed off take terms with 689 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,560 traffic they incorporated that and that would really deliver 690 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,720 the main improvement in a lot of the economics because the TCRC, 691 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:38,520 the trim and refining charges were improved. 692 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,280 The commodity price assumptions actually they kept the same as 693 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,360 what they had in April. So what are we looking at sort 694 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,640 of pre production capital which you know includes working 695 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,560 capital 78 million and April was 67. 696 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,760 So not too big of a change there, but a pretty chunky 697 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:09,920 change in the pre tax NPV from 6:58 to $728,000,000 there as 698 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,600 well. And in light of yesterday's 699 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,000 conversations about commodity price assumptions and things 700 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,120 like that, I wanted to actually take a look at that here for for 701 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,440 Woodlawn. So they've, they've got a nice 702 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:28,600 little table in that release from from August, which, which 703 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,880 shows the average realised mine plan, commodity prices and you 704 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,560 know, over, you know, the 10 year mine plan. 705 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,480 But really I think the more important period to look at is 706 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,920 what are they assuming in the first sort of few years based, 707 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,520 which is the arguably the riskier period of the of the 708 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,680 mine life when they're ramping up, when there's debt repayments 709 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,160 due and things like that. So, so I wanted to look at how 710 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,960 did their assumptions in the first three years compare 711 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,560 against current spot prices and sort of consensus economics 712 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,200 forecast. And for those who don't know, 713 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,800 consensus economics basically averages out all the different 714 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,320 various banks forecast commodity prices. 715 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:14,320 And when I had a look, they actually in pretty much all 716 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,360 instances what developer forecasting in those first three 717 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:24,120 years below current spot prices and below what consensus 718 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,480 economics forecasts as well. With the exception of LED LED's, 719 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,240 what they're saying for LED is around where spot is at the 720 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:35,800 moment and what consensus economics is forecasting. 721 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,600 Zinc assumption, developed zinc assumptions are largely in line 722 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,880 with consensus economics. But Spot actually is trading a 723 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,800 bit high and will flash up what they've what they've got in 724 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,480 their schedule there, so. So all up, quite quite 725 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,720 comforting. Yeah, it's it's encouraging. 726 00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:54,240 You'd you'd rather some conservatism and wriggle room as 727 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:56,640 your base case. And you know what if spot or you 728 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,960 know, whatever that price is at that point in time, in that 729 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,360 first second or thirty is more, you know how good's that you 730 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,080 know that's a bonus. But that's The thing is that's 731 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,720 that's an upside. It shouldn't necessarily pay 732 00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:10,080 your base case. You know what I'd love to say, 733 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,600 Ali, is what's that is, is now adjust those commodity prices 734 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,960 for the, you know, for all of the terms and conditions where 735 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,080 traffic takes a little bit off of it, you know, the qualifying 736 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,200 period look backs and all that. Yeah. 737 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,800 So, you know, there's that to think about as well. 738 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,760 And the other, the other sort of key thing to know is the first 739 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,600 two years of production already fully developed and the grade 740 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080 control drilling has been completed and all the 741 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,040 underground capital infrastructure has been 742 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,240 installed. So, you know, as we all know, 743 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,640 and we've, we've, we've spoken a bunch about on, on the podcast 744 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,720 is restarts and Rev hubs are not without their risks. 745 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:51,360 But things like this, you know, you know, advancing development 746 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,840 grade control drilling being, you know, sensible when your 747 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,960 financial modelling are all you know a few over many things you 748 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,400 can do to certainly help mitigate those risks as best you 749 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,560 can. And Speaking of Risk Alley, like 750 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,080 one of the things that maybe get some restart projects or 751 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,000 whatever on stock is use a bunch of debt, But you know, instead 752 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,880 of instead of funding it with equity, like, you know, we saw 753 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,920 with, you know, maker or blackout and stuff recently 754 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,400 develops sort of maintained their their desire to to to, you 755 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,200 know, to basically debt fund a good the majority of this 756 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,720 project, right? What do you think of that? 757 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,800 Yeah. I mean, it's I mean, certainly 758 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,920 pretty different to being what to what's been happening in the 759 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,400 gold space, obviously. But I think a couple things in 760 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,000 the sense that they're not perhaps like some of those 761 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,320 examples, you know, like the Spartan makers butt cats of of 762 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,880 the world, you know, develop on a single asset developer. 763 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,320 You know, they've got other sets, they've got their mining 764 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,520 services business as well, which you know, they're saying, you 765 00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:59,720 know, you should should be making, you know, some good 766 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:03,720 money to, you know, help during that period as well at the the 767 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:08,800 proportion of debt compared to their market cap. 768 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,040 I think it's like their market cap today is like 660 million 769 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,720 Aussie. This this is AUS $65 million 770 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:20,560 facility. It's a pretty small proportion, 771 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,880 not like say some of the other examples where you know, some 772 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,040 people are getting debt facilities that are the same 773 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,480 size of their market cap or if if not more. 774 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,560 And the reason I say that is because say something did 775 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,000 happen, you needed to raise equity, needed to do something 776 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,040 to to sort that situation out. Would you be better positioned 777 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,080 if it was a smaller percentage of your market cap or two times 778 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,280 that? So those are some thoughts, but. 779 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,080 There's another thought I had too, which is. 780 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,000 What did you guys think? It's like share price is what 781 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,480 today is like 222-4240. 2. Share price has been as high as 782 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,800 kind of maybe 5 sixes, I can't remember what. 783 00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,560 They were definitely fours and fives, yeah. 784 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,600 Shareholders would probably, yeah, not, not want to raise 785 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,200 money at twos. No to yeah. 786 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,400 A bit anchored, yeah, Yeah, no, there's, there's definitely a 787 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,320 bit just just on your, your point as well, Ali, completely 788 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,600 appreciate what you're saying though. 789 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,320 If the market does suspect that there's a raise because there's 790 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,480 debt trouble, then that doesn't go from being, you know, 10% of 791 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,640 the equity that goes down. It does go quickly a bit more 792 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,040 right. But sort of see, see what 793 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,360 happens, you know, it was been very adamant that there's not 794 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,800 going to be equity dilution and that's how he wants to go about 795 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,680 things. So or sort of sort of track it. 796 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,400 Yeah, came to, came for them to be producer. 797 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,480 Absolutely, yeah. What do you guys think? 798 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,160 One final question, what do you guys think about having the 799 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,640 financing and the off take all tied up from the same party? 800 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,560 Pros and cons? Because you could see it as 801 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,600 alignment, but then you could also see it as you know, if 802 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,720 something were to go wrong, you know that they've got the off 803 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:01,280 take, they've got the debt as well. 804 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,080 How do you guys think about that? 805 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,720 It's. Part and parcel of doing 806 00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:06,280 business with commodity traders like. 807 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,800 Yeah, it's, it's also another, you know, it's a kind of 808 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,920 ramification of a lot of the big banks moving away from from 809 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,600 financing projects. You need to go to different 810 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,600 sources. And, you know, since then, we've 811 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,800 seen the emergence of streamers of royalty companies of 812 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,600 commodity traders funding projects like this and cruelty 813 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,320 and streaming. They come with with different 814 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,320 problems, you know, so kind of got to pick your poison. 815 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,800 Yeah, it like does beg the question though, if you could, 816 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,160 if you if there was a world which you could sell 20% for 817 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,320 whatever, like some some highest multiple of NPV, then why not 818 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:48,640 put that money into find the restart or or maybe there's an 819 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,360 assumption that that's also going to go to the restart. 820 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,000 But you know, you could you could basically fund up with a 821 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,960 strategic sell down and not not have debt as well and not that 822 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,200 would. Yeah, that's got to be on the 823 00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,040 table. Yeah, right. 824 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,440 Yeah. Whether whether the capital for 825 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,600 a sell down goes into the restart or if it goes looking 826 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,640 for the opportunity, I think it's TBA. 827 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,320 Yeah, I know what I'd do. Yeah. 828 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,880 Well, who knows now that they've kind of, you know, done the FID 829 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,840 and they've got the financing, I don't know whether it'd be too 830 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,520 late to if they did get that for like a strategic partner, sell 831 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,840 down, replace the financing that's currently in place with 832 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,120 those funds. Yeah. 833 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,240 I don't know how difficult it would be to unwind that I don't. 834 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,080 Know if you would have executed the financing if that was your 835 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,720 plan because trying to get to keep the off take and why would 836 00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:37,080 you want that if you didn't need to do anyway. 837 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,560 Difficult, but no. It would be exciting to see them 838 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,600 become be producing again at Woodward. 839 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,160 Absolutely. Well done, Ali. 840 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,720 All right, couple, couple partners to thank and wrap it 841 00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:54,720 up. Big thank you to couple sponsors 842 00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:57,960 in the show, Mineral Mining services and CRE Insurance. 843 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,760 Also big thank you to Grounded Sand, big ground support, K 844 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,640 drill, Daysat, Saltbush contracting and the mighty Get 845 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,160 wet solutions guys. Information contained in this 846 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,880 episode of Money of Mine is of general nature only and does not 847 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,520 take into account the objectives, financial situation 848 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,560 or needs of any particular person. 849 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,920 Before making any investment decision, you should consult 850 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,000 with your financial advisor and consider how appropriate the 851 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,680 advice is to your objectives, financial situation and needs.