1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,680 Our criteria would be sort of relatively low country risk, 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,640 reasonable grade or low cost to bring into production for us to 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:14,080 to be shortlisting projects. Brett Smith, executive director 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:19,640 of Metals X, among many other titles, which we'll get to when 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,400 the first time you probably, you probably were shown or, or 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,160 someone, someone showed you some commentary that we or that I've 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,000 made about Metals X. Did you ever think you'd be 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,600 invited to sit in here and have a conversation with us? 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:30,960 Or do you think these guys are Muppets? 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,040 I didn't think Muppets. I sort of, I understand what you 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,160 guys do and I think one of you came along to one of our Agms 12 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:42,160 and there was a chance to have a bit of a chat with you then. 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:47,440 And it's look, it's I like the, I like what you guys do. 14 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,720 I think it's interesting. You, you, you know, your mix of 15 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,280 guests brings different perspectives. 16 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,880 You know, good luck. You know, hot cop has got a 17 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,960 certain following. You know, you, you, you, you 18 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:03,160 guys present a pretty balanced view of things. 19 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,040 Yeah. I appreciate that. 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,160 Glad, glad, glad to be called balanced, mate, yeah. 21 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,760 Pretty balanced, don't get. Ahead of yourself. 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,800 Which which Muppets would you like to have? 23 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,680 I don't know. I just I just I reflect on yeah, 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,160 I reflect on the the journey it's been talking about metals X 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,040 and like, you know, we're upfront Ding Ding, Ding metals X 26 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,440 shareholder. You also see on the the board of 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,840 the executive chair of no non executive chair of. 28 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,960 Of. Matt Gibson, which which 29 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,040 shareholder of we also got to do a Ding, Ding, Ding of as well. 30 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,840 So we'll get the disclosures out of the way. 31 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,680 We're conflicted, but we, we thought you'd be a very 32 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,600 interesting person to talk to because of a few reasons. 1 is 33 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,480 just our, our long relationship with, with the mystery of metals 34 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,600 X the, the, the continuous discourse we've had about 35 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,480 capital allocation, the intrigue of this, this, this, this, this 36 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,360 shareholder AIPAC and the, you know, the curious kind of like 37 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,040 discount that AIPAC entities seem to trade at when they, when 38 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,200 they're quite cash generative, being Middlesex and, and, and 39 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,680 Matt Gibson keen to unearth a lot of that. 40 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,880 You're a, you know, you're a, a very experienced operator like 41 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,520 you, you were the, the CEO of Asenko amongst many, many roles. 42 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,000 And, and I, I just think there's a rich conversation to be had 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,880 here about tin, about Middlesex, about capital allocation, about, 44 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,040 about China. And we're delighted to to have 45 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,480 you accept our invitation to join us, Brad. 46 00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:29,480 Yeah. Well, I think you know, given 47 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,120 that you, I don't know when you bought into Middlesex, but I 48 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,960 think when I come on the board it was about 8 cents, seven and 49 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,520 a half cents. It's now $0.87. 50 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,280 So I think regardless of whether for any shareholder, I think 51 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:45,520 that's been a pretty good turn around. 52 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:47,920 Are they? It has indeed. 53 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,560 And it's in one of the most fascinating commodities, one of 54 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,720 the most fiercely loved commodities out there in in the 55 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,560 world of punters that follow the metals and mining space. 56 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,520 So, yeah, tin it's it's an endlessly fascinating commodity. 57 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:07,320 The the supply Side Story is, is extremely fascinating as well. 58 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:10,720 And yeah, there there's so much we want to talk about with with 59 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,880 regards to to Middlesex. Where where specifically do you 60 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,480 want to keep this one off? Trav company or? 61 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,000 Let's let's go to the, the, the beginning, because when like, 62 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,320 yeah, when, when you came onto the chair, well, Gameshare, like 63 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,080 Middlesex was a much more kind of complicated company. 64 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,520 There was a distressed asset in in in Nifty which was which was 65 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,800 taking a lot of management time, attention and and capital. 66 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,160 Worse, worse than management time. 67 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,600 It was costing us a million, 1.2 million a month. 68 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,440 Yeah, in holding costs. It was a yeah, it was nifty. 69 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,320 And it was the Wingalina, Yeah, nickel cobalt assets. 70 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,520 You know, this just, again, just looking at how we change 71 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,840 Middlesex, there's only one employee of Middlesex. 72 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,840 That's me. Yeah, I'm, I'm a firm believer 73 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,560 in that companies generally have too much overhead. 74 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,800 And so it had a big corporate office on, on, on the the, the 75 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,400 terrace, whole bunch of guys who were doing stuff that probably 76 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,720 didn't need to be done. And these assets which were just 77 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,560 sucking cash, you know, that the, the, the tin asset, which 78 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,279 was their jewel was mortgaged against a loan to support the 79 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,720 development of Nifty. They were in breach of their 80 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,160 banking covenants. They were, they were, you know, 81 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,360 I can't, I'd like to use an F word that you'd probably have to 82 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,400 edit out, but they were in serious bloody stress. 83 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,440 So we had to look at, you know, getting the overhead costs down 84 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,280 as quickly as we can, finding a way of getting rid of the, those 85 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,560 assets which had value but just didn't have, we couldn't do 86 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,200 everything at once. We couldn't maintain the cash 87 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,240 burn, refinance the company and, and, and fix the 10 assets. 88 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:52,760 It just wasn't possible to do everything. 89 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,080 So I got rid of all the overhead, looked at APAC for a 90 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,440 loan so that we could pay out the Citibank debt. 91 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,840 That took the pressure off the, you know, losing the 10 asset 92 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:07,960 because it was mortgaged against the 10 asset and then started to 93 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,800 a sale process for Nifty. And I think we did quite well 94 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,600 out of that selling that to the guys. 95 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,880 Now that the the Cyprian Strike pack ride guys are looking at 96 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,040 turning that around. We've retained a significant, 97 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:23,680 yeah, we got a fair bit of money for it. 98 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,400 And then we've retained a significant number of 99 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,560 convertible notes which are now in the money which will give us 100 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,120 a return there. We spun off Wingalina into a 101 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,560 separate listed company. Now no one knew what was going 102 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,880 to happen in Indonesia at that stage with the massive increase 103 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,280 in the latter production there. But that that, that looked a 104 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:47,480 good strategy until all that production came online. 105 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,560 And so we got rid of those two assets. 106 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,240 At one point, Nikko had a pretty healthy market. 107 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:52,080 Cap Oh, it did. It did. 108 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,480 It did because it's a great asset. 109 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,040 It's one of the best undeveloped nickel cobalt assets in the 110 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,160 world. It's just, it required, like all 111 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,480 of the laterite jobs, it requires a huge amount of CapEx 112 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,000 to get it started. But it's a great asset and it'll 113 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,160 eventually get built. It'll eventually get built. 114 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,920 So that freed us up just to focus on the tin. 115 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,000 We, we, we at that stage had no debt. 116 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,120 And then we started just looking at what we could do to improve 117 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:22,600 the performance of the tin asset. 118 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,880 It had been starved of capital because everything had flowed to 119 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,040 Nifty. So we started to look at 120 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,840 regional and near mine exploration because nothing had 121 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,920 been spent on it and doing the little things we could do to 122 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,560 improve the productivity of the process plant. 123 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:40,800 Renaissance. Renaissance is actually making 124 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,720 free cash at this point in time the entire way through. 125 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,080 It's coming. It's it's just bubbling out of 126 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:45,640 it. Yeah. 127 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:49,560 And so even when even when like metals X was was distressed 128 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,560 because of of nifty effectively renison is the jewel that's 129 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:53,840 still. Got a profit things out, yeah, 130 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,920 yeah. But but that it's it's not a low 131 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,720 cost mine. It has been shut down in the 132 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,400 past when the tin parts. Tin parts dropped, yeah. 133 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,280 But we have that period in 2122 where tin just goes goes through 134 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,160 the roof for for a period and the cash flow is, is really, 135 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,640 really strong, right. It's pretty strong now too. 136 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,120 Yeah, I mean today, but we're at a pretty healthy tin price, you 137 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,720 know when when you look back now 37,000. 138 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,920 Oh, it's great. It's and I can't see significant 139 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,640 increases on the supply side, which is going to erode that tin 140 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,600 price in the medium term. You know, we, we and I spend 141 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,600 most of my time looking at potential acquisitions. 142 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,160 And so I've looked at every tin project in the world more than 143 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,520 once and there just isn't, you know, the, the guys in the Congo 144 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,680 are going to complete their expansion and that'll bring a 145 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,240 bit more tin back on. I don't believe Indonesia ever 146 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,360 stopped producing tin. It it was just porous. 147 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,000 So what was leaked, what was being leaked out, leaked out 148 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,520 through unofficial channels. But that concentrate didn't seem 149 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,880 to disappear from the market. It just didn't flow through the 150 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,880 official channels. And mine was coming back on, but 151 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,640 coming back on quite slowly. So your your friends at at 152 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,800 Yunnan, do they help give insight obviously on that, that 153 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,520 Myanmar aspect they they'd have reasonable insight into that 154 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,840 wouldn't. They, well, they buy, they buy a 155 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,760 significant amount of their tin from Myanmar. 156 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,800 But I was up in Yunnan Province a couple of weeks ago, which is 157 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,520 on the sort of border with Vietnam and that sort of area. 158 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,320 They're talking to all of the the smaller smelters who also 159 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,440 bought a lot of teen from Myma. And you know, we got one view in 160 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,480 Australia as to what was happening in Myma. 161 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:35,880 You talk to the people there and you got a very different view of 162 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,480 what was happening. And that that that involved 163 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,720 trying to balance the relative power of the two different 164 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,320 militias by. And so there was this, you know, 165 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,720 China also wanted to see certain stability in that region. 166 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:59,600 So there was some some some use of Chinese purchasing power or 167 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,920 stopping purchasing, which could be used to help balance the 168 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,120 power between those militias. So it's a lot more complicated 169 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,400 than we thought, which was just that these guys decided not to 170 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,280 sell tin. Perhaps no one was buying tin 171 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,720 from them. And that's slowly starting to 172 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,480 come back on now. But because they had been, you 173 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,840 know, they'd had disrupted production and all sorts of 174 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,120 other problems. It's only ramping up fairly 175 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,080 slowly, but there's a global shortage of tin concentrate. 176 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,600 Just looking at all the little you know what's happening in 177 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,040 copper where people are dropping their treatment charges because 178 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,800 there just isn't enough Capricorn, That's going to 179 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:41,080 happen in tin because a lot of the old smelters had had their 180 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,200 own minds, so they had a supply chain to provide concentrate or 181 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,920 to provide tin to them. Those mines now have dropped in 182 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,760 grade or exhausted. So at some stage they'll have to 183 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,760 be a like a consolidation because some of these smelters 184 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:02,040 can't exist competing at lower and lower treatment charges for 185 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,720 tin concentrate. So I think we're going to see 186 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,040 short term, we're going to see treatment charges drop. 187 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,560 Longer term, we're going to have to see a consolidation of that 188 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:14,080 tin smelting capacity, particularly in China, because 189 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,240 the smaller guys who had their old, had their own minds and had 190 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,640 their own concentrators don't have the raw material from their 191 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,840 own supply chain. And they're going to have to 192 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,200 compete globally to buy the concentrate and that's going to 193 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,200 keep the keep the price up. Yeah. 194 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,720 Can you speak to the point there just one more on on Myanmar of 195 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,920 the the higher grade resources actually being mined out? 196 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,760 Like is it a a point of them not not selling any sorts of things 197 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,000 or well? I, I, I think that there won't 198 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,400 be a lot of what we would classify from a Western 199 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,440 perspective of, of exploration in Myanmar. 200 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,240 So there probably is opportunity for people to go back and have a 201 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,760 look at it with a different exploration lens on. 202 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,920 But the what's what's happening there is people just mining 203 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,840 what's an existing Nolan resource and and that that gets 204 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,160 depleted relatively quickly. This is the the man more complex 205 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,720 to it we're speaking about specifically in Myanmar, Yes, 206 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:11,440 yeah. Yeah. 207 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:12,720 Is that is that what you're asking? 208 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And is, is that like, what is 209 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,440 the nature of that like mining operation, Is it just like? 210 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,800 It's a combination of Hard Rock and alluvial, depending on where 211 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,160 you're where you are. Yeah. 212 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,360 And some of it is quite small scale, yeah, like you'd see like 213 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,000 you'd see in parts of Africa. I've tried to look at it on 214 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,120 Google Earth and I just get confused on yeah. 215 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,440 Yeah, I do know. I do know, you know, concentrate 216 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,400 traders who are going into Myanmar and actually talking and 217 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,280 buying from these guys. And they're describing it to me 218 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,360 like I remember how the Congo was 35 years ago with this sort 219 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:53,920 of small guys collecting, you know, semi beneficiated product, 220 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,680 putting it in bags. There's other contractors buying 221 00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:59,280 those bags and trucks and then taking them to places and then 222 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:00,640 therefore being further processed. 223 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,320 So it's sort of Artesia, you know, it's it's not a very in 224 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,640 places, it's not a very sophisticated operation. 225 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,480 So that in that, that means it's difficult to ramp up quickly? 226 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,560 So the Congo is still like that, aren't they? 227 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,280 I. I think they still might be. 228 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,200 So this, this all ties in really well Brett with, you know, you 229 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,880 assessing the options out there and and M&A and you've obviously 230 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,440 done some deals elementals comes to to to mind first team as 231 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,280 well. So how do you kind of pick and 232 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,520 choose and and speak to the the assets that you have sort of 233 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,640 done a deal with? It's nice to have more than one 234 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,040 horse in the race. So that's that's that really is 235 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,600 our strategy that both of these we think are good projects. 236 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,760 I used to be, even before I was involved in Middlesex, I used to 237 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,400 be on the board of Ello Entos. So I've always liked that 238 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,640 project. That Petrogic in Spain is a, 239 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,880 it's a good low cost, open cut, simple concentrator relatively, 240 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,800 you know, sensible operating costs in an area which needs 241 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,000 economic development. So they're the sort of things 242 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000 that you would think would make it a good project to develop. 243 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,880 Europe is complicated for permitting. 244 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,440 I know that from Dragon where it's taken us in a longer than 245 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,800 you'd ever expect to get permits for new mines, but the, you 246 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,920 know, the Elementos guys have taken their feedback from their 247 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,920 previous permitting applications. 248 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,400 They've learnt what was necessary now to resubmit. 249 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,160 And they've done a good job sort of changing the, you know, some 250 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,920 of the layouts considering what the water management issues are. 251 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,160 And it's usually water in Europe, which is a permitting 252 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,560 issue. And I've resubmitted the permits 253 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:43,560 and I think they've got a pretty good chance of, of seeing those 254 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:47,440 within 6 to 8 months. And that, and that'll, that's, 255 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:53,200 that's, that is really the key for, for having confidence 256 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,000 because all of these projects, you know, should you can do 257 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,400 usually the metallurgy is OK, Usually the, you know, 258 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,760 everything else you can manage. But the permitting is always 259 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,240 such an uncertainty wherever you're developing A mining 260 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,840 project these days. Then two, you have confidence 261 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,000 that you're going to get the permit. 262 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,120 Taking that risk on a major investment is just difficult. 263 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,560 So instead of taking a a full risk, you, you've, you've 264 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,840 bought, you know, a, a very considerable seat at the table 265 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,240 with a, with a, yeah, substantial shareholding 266 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,840 awaiting a permitting outcome. Is that the right 267 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,640 interpretation? That's and that's the same thing 268 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,080 we did with First Teen. Yeah. 269 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:37,840 So the idea there is that we can make a decision as to do we do a 270 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,400 list code play or do we look at a asset related joint venture or 271 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,080 you know some other form of investment at A at a asset level 272 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,480 to enable us to have a a significant stake in the 273 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,480 development of the project, both the first TIN project and the 274 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:56,760 Elementos project. Yeah. 275 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,240 Yeah, yeah. And 1st tin like as it comes to 276 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,720 permitting for them, do you think there's a similar time 277 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,560 timeline in front of them? Yeah, it's, it's NSW, but it's, 278 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,840 again, it's in an area which has been a historic tin mining area. 279 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,880 They've done their public consultations just recently. 280 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,760 And there's a, there's a trigger in New South Wales that if you 281 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,600 get more than 50 objections, you have to follow a longer 282 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,280 permitting path. They only got 5 or 6 so that 283 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,040 they're not on the extended path for the permitting, which is 284 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,440 great news. And again, they've done a, a, a 285 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,640 very considered sort of, you know, not rushed permit 286 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,600 application. It's, it's a very benign, it's 287 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,680 not a sulfide type ore body. So there's no acid rock draining 288 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,960 type issues. It's, you know, the, the waste. 289 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,320 There's very little overburden because they've basically 290 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,200 classified everything as ore. But it's, it's so it won't, it 291 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,080 won't provide a significant environmental legacy. 292 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,480 So it should be a relatively and it's in the middle of nowhere. 293 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,880 There's just bloody feral pigs and prickly pears around there. 294 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,120 So there's no environmental damage that you're going to do 295 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,440 to that area. Yeah, the the thing that like 296 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,680 with 1st 10, it's a a lower grade. 297 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,800 Yeah, I didn't understand. To be honest, I didn't 298 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,960 understand how it could work at that grade, because normally if 299 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,320 something's less than 1% ten, I don't even look at it. 300 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,520 Yeah. And what changed the game? 301 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,640 There the the the the the recovery, the very simple 302 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,560 recovery process flow chart that you need to recover the tin your 303 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,320 base. It's basically just grind and 304 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,560 gravity. The considerate is a very coarse 305 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,200 crystal and in even if it in crushing it fractures and 306 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,120 separates quite easily. So you can just screen and then 307 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,320 a gravity type circuit to to recover the considerate. 308 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,800 I think there's upside being a junior, it's looked at 309 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,600 increasing the tons of tin in the ground and the size of the 310 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,200 thing as high as possible because they think that's the 311 00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,400 right thing to do. As a junior. 312 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,480 I think when you actually come to development, you could look 313 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,160 at a the same way you'd mine a narrow grade gold system where 314 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,640 you'd be digging selective even if you're open pitting it, you'd 315 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,400 dig selective trenches rather than just do a big mass bulk 316 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,319 excavation process. When you can see the ore body. 317 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,520 The considerite is in bands. You know every a couple of 318 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,319 meters there's another band of considerite. 319 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,880 If you looked at a more, you know, a different, you'd reduce 320 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,800 the total tons of tin, but I think you'd up you'd bring up 321 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,040 the grade you were processing and that may affect the 322 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,920 economics. But for the IT, it works the way 323 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,200 they've done the financial model, but I think you could 324 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,280 improve it later as you move closer to to actually developing 325 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,560 a mine plan. Elementos is autopassa as well 326 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,760 is far below 1%. Yeah, Yeah, there it's well, but 327 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,320 it's a very low cost mining, very low cost mining, yeah. 328 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,560 And what should we, what should we read into the, the assets and 329 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,480 the, and the projects around the world that that Meadows X hasn't 330 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,120 been able to do a a deal with, given that you've looked under 331 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,640 the hood at as many as you can? Well, when you say we haven't, 332 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,360 haven't yet, haven't yet, haven't yet, you know, of 333 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,440 course, you know, Stellar is interesting because it's just 334 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,760 around the corner to us and we're in constant conversation 335 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,280 with those guys. And you know, I know Rusty well, 336 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,520 yeah. So you know, there there we is 337 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,280 is a sensible collaboration in that area. 338 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,440 One of the things that's interesting is we have a rentals 339 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,120 project, which is a tailings and and you guys you you guys seemed 340 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,640 prejudice towards or prejudice against tailing free processing 341 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,240 projects. If you've watched enough for you 342 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,360 I podcast. You're the mining engineer, not 343 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240 me. I I think I've come to 344 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,240 appreciate like the, the like, like I was, I was being critical 345 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,840 of that relative to returns to shareholders that could be 346 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,560 distributed and you know, the, the IRR on rentals for the CapEx 347 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:57,800 that required. I was thinking, why don't you 348 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,280 just, why don't you just buy back your stock? 349 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:00,720 You're so cheap. Yeah, yada, yada. 350 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,920 And we can, we can get to that bit later, but we'll. 351 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,080 Start well, we'll talk about capital and we'll talk about 352 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,800 capital allocation and investment theories and all that 353 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:14,360 sort of stuff. But the yeah, MMG up the road 354 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:15,880 have got a problem with tailings. 355 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,200 Anyone who tries to develop a new mine in that area is going 356 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,640 to have a issue with tailings. We've got we're out of the 357 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:29,480 tarkwine we've got now we've got the NGOs are quite happy with 358 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,200 what we're doing down there in terms of the tailings thing. 359 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:38,640 So having a having a single large tailings resource that the 360 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,640 regional mines all pump tailings too, it would be an easier 361 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,240 solution for a number of players to get permitting and to develop 362 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,880 their projects. They'd not be quite quite an 363 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,120 expensive endeavour to pump. How far would the tailings have 364 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:53,520 to be pumped from all of these operations? 365 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,400 From from Stellar or from MMG? From MMG, yeah. 366 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,000 No, we're just up the road. OK. 367 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,840 Yeah, both. You can pump tailings relatively 368 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:01,600 cheaply. OK. 369 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,280 Yeah, Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. 370 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,520 Yeah, and. So Stella said, coming back to 371 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,680 that, Stella's an obvious one. That's interesting. 372 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,920 There's, you know, the the lower grade stuff up in North 373 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,480 Queensland, in Australia's. I don't think that's that 374 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,400 interesting. You know, I had a look at the 375 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,920 stuff in Brazil when they were selling the stuff up in the 376 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,440 Amazon and the smelter in Sao Paulo, the stuff in Morocco's 377 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,120 interesting, but maybe maybe a bit late now for us to get 378 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:35,880 involved in that. Congo's, you know, my board is, 379 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,760 is probably not that interested in in Africa, though. 380 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,960 I'm not scared of Africa. I've worked in the Congo of 381 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,440 Cinco in many different places and that was coming. 382 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,240 Yeah. So I think, you know, our 383 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,760 criteria would be sort of relatively low country risk, 384 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,160 reasonable grade or low cost to bring into production and a 385 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,480 reasonable way down the permitting Gale for us to to be 386 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,000 short listing projects. Yeah. 387 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:08,520 Yeah. So we've we'll go to Stella 388 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,480 first. But with Stella there's there's 389 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,360 there's you know, you say JVII think synergies in my head that 390 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,320 that could be had there. It's down the road. 391 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,800 The the, the, the one thought I have though is like metals X 392 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:27,480 metals XS interest in in Renaissance is is via this this 393 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,000 JV and maybe you can give some context on the JV, but are there 394 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,320 any, are there any limitations to like to, to, to doing 395 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,320 anything with with stellar doesn't have to be done at that 396 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,320 JV level? Stellar is in the area of 397 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,600 influence under the J VS definition, so it would have to 398 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,480 be discussed at the JV level before anything was done. 399 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,720 There's a sort of circle of so many kilometres around the 400 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,040 asset, but that that wouldn't be an impediment. 401 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,200 Yeah, yeah. And when we, well, maybe we 402 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,360 should talk about the JV as well. 403 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,760 There's so many moving parts with, for a company with one 404 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,040 employee. There's a lot going on, Brett, 405 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:09,800 the, the, the JV like Middle Middlesex, you know, over the 406 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,440 last last 12 months has, has, has publicly been trying to, to, 407 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,160 to potentially consolidate part of that JV. 408 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,080 Can you add some colour on on like how that situation came 409 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,840 about where it where it got to and you know, like what, what, 410 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,200 what, what are the kind of restrictions or sure or 411 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,960 permanent? Things within that JV Renison is 412 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,680 a 5050 JV between Middlesex and Unintin Australia. 413 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:40,720 Unintin Australia is a 20% owned by Unintin, the Chinese smelting 414 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,280 company and 80% by Green Tech, a Hong Kong listed company which 415 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,760 is a single asset company. It has a small tin trading 416 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,520 business, but it's, it's, it's main asset and it's only revenue 417 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,520 source is really it's revenue from that joint venture. 418 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,360 They were suspended on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange because the 419 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,080 auditors couldn't sign off on the accounts. 420 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:15,120 It's, it's so that made it that, that to us looked like an 421 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:17,280 opportunity. We thought that with the 422 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,920 suspension there may be a number of shareholders who could be 423 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,600 interested in selling. There's two major shareholders 424 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,720 who own probably about 6 between the pair of them, they own about 425 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,120 60% of the company. We thought we could probably mop 426 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,640 up a number of the smaller shareholders and then look to 427 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,000 use that as a platform for a bid for the whole company or to look 428 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,120 at doing what would be the equivalent of a 249 day in 429 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:45,520 Australia to look at questioning the board and the reasons for 430 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,040 the suspension. We, we, we did make a bid was a 431 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,440 low bid. The guys in Hong Kong being 432 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,800 savvy, only a small number sold to us. 433 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,480 So you can get some come back. Yeah, they, they thought that 434 00:23:58,480 --> 00:23:59,920 we'll come back and make another bid. 435 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:07,520 So we are considering of course another bid and and yeah, we've 436 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,840 we've of course worked out what we think it's worth based on our 437 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,920 EV value and what that revenue stream would be and everything 438 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,000 so. But there's financial due 439 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,360 diligence that. Financial due diligence is 440 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:20,960 difficult when it's under suspension because they can't 441 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,800 legally release any information to us which hasn't been released 442 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,880 to all shareholders. So you're making some next to it 443 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,360 or or you're making? Yeah, you're making some. 444 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,240 Next to, well, we and we don't, we don't really want the listed 445 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,320 Hong Kong entity. We just want the revenue stream 446 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,480 of the 80% of the joint venture. That's that's what we'd like. 447 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,080 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 448 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,960 And like where? Like what's this? 449 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,720 What's the status of of? We have to, we have to wait 450 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,320 after making a bid up again. The Hong Kong regulators have 451 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,840 rules which are different to Australia. 452 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,080 There's a time period that we have to wait before we can make 453 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,440 another bid. Yeah. 454 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,120 And so that's that's sort of late December, yeah. 455 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,000 And I think they they will, if they can't satisfy the 456 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,080 requirements of the Stock Exchange, they'll be delisted in 457 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,240 March or April. Yeah. 458 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,480 So there's, but we've, you know, we've got Chinese New Year in 459 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,160 there, which is it's like Christmas in Australia in terms 460 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,200 of when it is sensible to do or to look at tabling A 461 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,520 transaction. So we've got to work through all 462 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,520 of that timing and to work out you know what, you know, the 463 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,960 team prices move since we made our last bid, all of those sorts 464 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,400 of things to work out. What is a sensible strategy do 465 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,360 you think to do? Do you think those two, I mean 466 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,240 those two shareholders, if they control like 60%, like do you 467 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,760 think there's a, a world where there, there's a deal to be done 468 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,480 at? A Yeah, I don't think that they 469 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,720 both agree. OK, on yeah, What's happened 470 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,000 with the suspension, which gives us a door to one of them to 471 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,200 potentially negotiate a deal? Gotcha, gotcha. 472 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,160 That helps. Not if he wants too much for it, 473 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,680 yeah. Yeah, everything's got a price. 474 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,680 But like if, if a deal can be done at a reasonable price, 475 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,240 surely that is that is the most accretive thing you can do with 476 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,400 your cash balance is? Yeah. 477 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,200 You agree? Yeah. 478 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,080 That's why we, that's why we made a bid, yeah. 479 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,320 Yeah. And then yeah, with, with the, 480 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,480 the JV dynamics, yeah, like like covered, we'll go, we'll go 481 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,280 across the the globe again. Are there any other like tin 482 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,000 like projects that you've you've looked over undeveloped or or 483 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,000 otherwise that that just aren't on the the radar? 484 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,240 There's little stuff up in Nova Scotia in, there's bits and 485 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,120 pieces in in some of the other around was that extension of 486 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,480 that Congolese belt. There's smaller deposits in 487 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,560 Africa, but again, they're all fairly small. 488 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,040 Uganda's got a little bit this. I think Bolivia's been a place 489 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,680 that's been just forgotten because the government, you 490 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,760 know, being a socialist government and having a certain 491 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,720 agenda scared a lot of people. But there, you know, I think if 492 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,720 rentals works, there's enormous, enormous deposits of tin 493 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,520 tailings in Bolivia which could which someone should have a look 494 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,560 at. Peru is a a big producer of of 495 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,720 tin as well, yeah. Well, it was the Peruvian guys 496 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,000 who had the assets in that, the Peruvian family who had the 497 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,280 assets in Brazil who sold them out recently. 498 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,120 So, yeah, but I think that's quite closely held. 499 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:21,360 I don't think there's any interest to sell the Peruvian in 500 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,000 assets, yeah. Yeah. 501 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,480 And those Bolivian ones are within the state owned minor as 502 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,400 well. So makes things a bit harder. 503 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,960 So capital allocation then? This is this. 504 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,480 Is this. Yeah, this is this. 505 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,280 Is where you started with us. Yeah, totally it is. 506 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,040 Totally. I didn't understand the company 507 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,680 as well as I do now and I was maybe I was a bit critical, but 508 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,200 but I'm glad that things have had like I'm glad that there was 509 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,280 like, you know, the announcement of a buy back. 510 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,080 I'll bet you didn't have to buy back much, but you know. 511 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,600 Yeah. Well, we would have bought back 512 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,440 as much as you know, it was a function of the share price. 513 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,720 We didn't set a limit on to how much we could buy. 514 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,680 The share price started to move so. 515 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,920 This is an interesting point because you like most companies 516 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,640 don't do a buyback and say, oh, we're going to buy it back when 517 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,920 the when the stock is is less than or equal to a. 518 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,280 Certain price, most of the ones, every buyback I've been involved 519 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,400 with in a public company, the board has set a ceiling. 520 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,560 They've set a ceiling. Yeah, but not publicly indicated 521 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,280 that ceiling. Well, we didn't publicly 522 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,640 indicate it or. You can infer it, but but you 523 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,400 know, yeah, there's I think I think it's more uncommon than 524 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,960 not to have a just a like a flat yeah, ceiling price. 525 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,160 You can have like some sort of volume weighted allocation 526 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,920 within a band or a range. Yeah, but anyway, that's. 527 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,960 But I appreciate the discipline. Like I think that's the way 528 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,120 buybacks should be done, but. You'll be looking at net like 529 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,680 look at the cash balance. What if they have just plowed a 530 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,240 hell of a lot more into into the stock at low, low, low prices? 531 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,240 You would have pushed it to that level Quite quite. 532 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,040 You would have you would have moved the price above your 533 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,000 ceiling. You could do a tender offer at 534 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,760 a, you know what I mean? Like if you just go, OK, we're 535 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,000 like we're going to do a tender offer $0.10 above the current 536 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,280 price and we'll mop up everyone that wants to sell. 537 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,440 We'll take it all. Yeah, yeah. 538 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,760 The, the, my, my view is you use the buyback to support a share 539 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,240 price when you have other things. 540 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,720 So, but when you have a macroeconomic change like an 541 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,600 increase in the team price, save your buyback capacity for when 542 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,120 that's not there naturally supporting the Tim price. 543 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,440 So that was kind of the philosophy we followed. 544 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,520 You know, we, we, we, we have publicly stated since I've been 545 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,880 on the board that as soon as we have franking credits, we'll re 546 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,160 look at dividends. Yeah. 547 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,840 So, so that that, that we've said that at every AGM and we 548 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,840 will, we will if we needed to recommence a buyback because 549 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,560 there wasn't support for the share price, it's still there. 550 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,040 We would re enable it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 551 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,400 That's the counter cyclical approach as well in in contrast 552 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,400 to what we saw in in coal and a couple of years ago as well. 553 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,360 Yeah. And I can appreciate the value 554 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,560 of that cash. It's not like, you know, we've 555 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,520 talked about all of the ways that that can be deployed. 556 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,120 There's great optionality that you know that exists not in just 557 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,600 the organic but also the inorganic stuff and there'll be 558 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,440 a time and place to deploy that cash. 559 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,840 Like you can't be opportunistic on your JV partner if you don't 560 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,920 have the cash backing to support that. 561 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,600 So I can I can understand. Appreciate I'd like us to be 562 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,840 producing, you know, through greater ownership of 563 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,960 Renaissance, through the development of rentals, through 564 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,600 the development of one or both of the first tin and Elementos, 565 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,320 you know, 20/20/2000 ton of tin a year. 566 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,480 Yeah, doubling what we produce now is just as Renaissance. 567 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,600 And that's so that's, that's, you know, we want to be as big 568 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,640 as bigger than alpha mean. Yeah. 569 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,080 So that's, that's our, you know, our strategy. 570 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,400 And I think that will move given as you mentioned, the complexity 571 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,680 of the team market, if you can be producing sort of 20% of the 572 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,960 world's team concentrate, you will get rated accordingly. 573 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,240 Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about ratings 574 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:02,880 because because it was X Mount Gibson like they're always like 575 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,120 they always traded just you know like 1 1/2 times EBITDA, 2 times 576 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,680 EBITDA at most if they've been trading it positively cash back. 577 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,920 Yeah, they're. Two very different companies 578 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,320 now, as I said, you know, when we when I came on the board, we 579 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,360 were eight cents. We're now 87 cents. 580 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,240 Yeah. So that's, that's, that's fixing 581 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,520 itself by being consistent, by doing what you said you're going 582 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,600 to do and delivering on what? A company's performance. 583 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,600 Poor old man Gibson, you know, that's, that was a disaster, 584 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,600 that rockfall totally unexpected. 585 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,840 You know that that section of the wall was maybe 200 meters 586 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,400 long, 150 meters high, 3 meters thick, had 18 meter rock bolts 587 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,960 in it all, you know, very heavily bolted, meshed and shot 588 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,200 creded and it fell within 5 seconds. 589 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,360 Yeah. So of course that's going to 590 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,520 knock the share price down significantly. 591 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,400 Yeah. And I think also, you know, if a 592 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,400 if a mine is on its last 18 months of production, you're 593 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,640 going to see an erosion of its share price because people and 594 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,760 it did, it didn't really have a strategy of what it was going to 595 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,480 do post, post coolant. Yeah. 596 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,880 And now it has. Now it has. 597 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,880 So that that's, yeah, now it has. 598 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,640 But at that, that's the bit I'm getting to is like, I think the 599 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,000 the market had for better off or worse, there was a perception 600 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,840 that, that you know the these companies that have a very large 601 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,800 shareholding from APAC and maybe their real agenda is just to 602 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,400 accumulate stuff. And maybe maybe there's most 603 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,800 shareholders in the market want to see some distribution of 604 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,800 these big cash balances to them and that generates the rewrite. 605 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,640 You guys have heard of Ferb? Yeah. 606 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,560 How can a pack be accumulating beyond what Ferb will allow it? 607 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,760 To be no, no, no, I mean like within the vehicle of, of, of 608 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,400 not not accumulating more shares, but, but, but like, 609 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,640 let's say those entities can, can embark on their own capital 610 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,280 allocation, you know, decisions. Some of those decisions might be 611 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,280 to pay a dividend which other shareholders might want, but 612 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,080 maybe might not be what what I pack once and I think that was 613 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,640 part of the markets you know like discount that has been 614 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,280 applied to those. Yeah, I think a question came up 615 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,760 in the Matt Gibson AGM the other day about dividends. 616 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,360 And the the CEO reminded the audience that it had paid out 617 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,880 something like 320 million of dividends, you know, up until it 618 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,080 ran out of franking credits. Yeah, I think, I don't know, 619 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,440 franking credits is a real consideration when you're 620 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:41,320 thinking about paying dividends. Yeah, APEC, APEC to me has 621 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,080 saved, saved tantamize us, save Middlesex's us. 622 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760 And it did a lot to help Matt Gibson in terms of being a 623 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,320 supportive shareholder when no one else was supporting them. 624 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,120 And that's, that's that I don't think is being generally 625 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,640 understood, you know, providing unsecured loans, helping with 626 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,680 restructure all of those sorts of things, participating in 627 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,000 placements or participating in rights issues to ensure there 628 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,840 was funding that's that that saved a lot of those companies 629 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,159 from going under. I'd love to RIP the curtain off 630 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,840 here. Like what are the misconceptions 631 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,400 about AIPAC? What do you think other people 632 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,920 think AIPAC is? And like what is the reality of 633 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,679 the type of shareholder AIPAC is well? 634 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,679 AIPAC when I, when I, when I was more involved with the 635 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,400 management of AIPAC, I restructured it so that it had 636 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,679 three, three funds. Each of the analysts then had 637 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:41,360 their own portfolio for trading and then there was a long term 638 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,840 strategic fund. And so APAC has an energy fund, 639 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,280 it has a resources fund and then it has its long term strategic 640 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,199 holdings. They, they operate differently. 641 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,760 The trading funds are like any other, like any other trading 642 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,760 company where they buy and sell the equities. 643 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,040 You're up and down without restrictions. 644 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,240 Another, another issue with the Hong Kong exchange is that if 645 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,240 something is considered a significant asset, you actually 646 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:13,200 have to ask shareholder approval to increase your ownership or 647 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,520 decrease your ownership of that strategic asset. 648 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,360 So it's got all of these restrictions on what it can do 649 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,200 with these companies. But the strategic holding is 650 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,520 where APEC believes it has, where this is a strategic asset 651 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,320 which needs a long term focus to assist in its development or the 652 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,520 generation of the best outcome or the best value for that 653 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,080 asset. And that should that would 654 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:47,800 benefit all shareholders. So you you think you like the 655 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,040 way you interpret it back is like they're just a very aligned 656 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,320 shareholder that has the the same intentions. 657 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,280 And A and a long term and has because because it has these, 658 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,040 you know, companies like Mount Gibson and Middlesex in its long 659 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,080 term portfolio, it's not having to trade them in and out or it 660 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,440 doesn't short, it doesn't have to trade them in and out like a 661 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,720 fund would do. So it's they're looking at long 662 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:17,480 term, you know, long term value of that equity and that that 663 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,680 isn't understood by someone who wants to play day trading with 664 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,040 the stock and hopes it goes up and down within sort of on a 665 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,440 cyclic nature. Yeah. 666 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,040 Can you share more about the the strategic nature of the assets 667 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,640 that it looks at understanding? That they're based on, they're 668 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,000 based on the percentage value of them on the portfolio, because 669 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,880 that's a requirement of the Hong Kong Stock Exchange that if it's 670 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,080 an asset which is above a certain percentage of your, 671 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,960 your, you know, I don't remember what the correct term is, but on 672 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,080 your balance sheet, if it's above a certain percentage, you 673 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,320 can't trade it. You have to ask shareholders to 674 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,720 buy and sell above a certain percentage change. 675 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,760 So but they are assets that where they believed that a long 676 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,360 term strategic view of that as an asset was an important thing. 677 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:12,240 Tanami Tanami would have driven most people nuts in terms of the 678 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:15,600 amount of time that's taken to get that to, to get that project 679 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,480 moving. But there's, you know, AIPAC 680 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,280 have been supportive of Tatami. It it did, it did. 681 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,160 Again, it was before my time, but it did, it had almost gone 682 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,560 broke as well. And it was it was AIPAC which 683 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,600 provided the fund for it to stay solvent. 684 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,240 Yeah, AIPAC irons north of 50 odd percent of. 685 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,920 I don't know. I remember I said I'm not good 686 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,160 with exact numbers, but it's a major shareholder. 687 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,880 It's a major shareholder, yeah. Yeah. 688 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:51,880 And the Tanamoi interesting history, but this asset, it was 689 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,000 a it was a joint venture with Northern Star. 690 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,440 Northern Star had done had done a deal and not all that long ago 691 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,360 to increase their, their, their, their participation that JV by 692 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,160 an extra 10% and and that gave. No, not exactly. 693 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,600 I actually negotiated the deal with Northern Stars, the Reese 694 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,400 casting of the joint venture agreement. 695 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,080 Yes, originally it was a earning with the free carry where Tanami 696 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,160 had a free carried interest and Northern Star had to spend up, 697 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,360 had to get the plant into production of so many ounces by 698 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,280 a certain period of time to earn into its ownership, right. 699 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,520 Kind of my challenge that because they weren't actually 700 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,760 doing what they said and we then there was a stalemate. 701 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,680 There was a stalemate. So we renegotiated that joint 702 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,120 venture where the free carried was dropped and it was a 5050 703 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,480 JV, both parties contributing equally to the development of 704 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,240 the project because I personally thought that was stumbling block 705 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,480 for the development of the project and both parties 706 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,400 contributed a significant amount of money. 707 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,080 We were spending sort of $20 million a year plus as a joint 708 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,520 venture on drilling in those areas. 709 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,880 The reason it never really progressed was Northern Star 710 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,840 wanted a much bigger project. They wanted a 3 million on per 711 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,960 annum plus project. We would have been happy with 712 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,080 with the tonne of my hat on of a 1.21 point 5 million tonne 713 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,400 project, refurbishing the plant, getting a cash flow and then 714 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,240 looking at. So they're both correct 715 00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:25,400 philosophies, but different philosophies and each philosophy 716 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,680 informs how you explore and what you allocate drilling for. 717 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,600 If you're chasing, you know, something that's two or three 718 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:38,320 times as big, you're doing regional drilling to try to fill 719 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,640 out what could be your potential or sources. 720 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,600 If you're trying to get an existing, you know, 1.2 million 721 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,080 operation into place, you're doing focus drilling to develop 722 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,360 a mine plan to get something into operation. 723 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,560 So that was then neither is right or wrong. 724 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,000 They were just different. They were just different and 725 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,280 that's that's what and they and both parties worked harmoniously 726 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,840 and, and everyone was in support. 727 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,720 But because of that difference, I don't think it fitted 728 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:07,840 strategically what Northern Star wanted to do, hence the 729 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,560 divestment. And now MGX have real alignment. 730 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,520 You've spoken in the past with with the MGX hat on about that 731 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,480 1.2 million ton per annum type operation 100,000 ounces. 732 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,160 Plus. There a an asset that we start 733 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,240 producing in in hopefully within 2 1/2 years or. 734 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,560 So. Importantly, MGX has has the 735 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,040 understand there'll be some some cash costs associated with 736 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,400 cooling now, but I imagine there's there'll still be a lot 737 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,560 of cash left in MGX. Yeah, and cooling's not as bad 738 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,640 as we first thought. You know, we've got we could 739 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,000 significant low grade stockpiles on the surface. 740 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,880 So we now believe we can and they're, you know, they're, 741 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,760 they're 4245% and also they're not crap. 742 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,120 But we look, we think we can sell those people will blend 743 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,000 that. So that'll that's a that's a bit 744 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,920 more cash than we thought. We are we we in in discussions 745 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,040 with a couple of different groups as to take over the 746 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:10,520 island as an asset for, you know, for servicing, you know, 747 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,040 infrastructure or tourism. It's very close to the Timor Sea 748 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,680 oil platforms. So to make a very good base for 749 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,040 much in it, you know, and if you're in a helicopter and you 750 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,640 want to rescue someone from a rig, it's maybe an hour earlier 751 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,840 than it is from Broome or Derby to get there. 752 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,360 So it's got, it's got and they and they, and it's also a 753 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,560 strategic asset for the defense. So we, we, we don't believe 754 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,760 we're going to have the full rehab cost because we believe 755 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,200 we'll be able to repurpose the island and sell it for, for a 756 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,760 future use. Gotcha, Gotcha. 757 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:51,240 That'd be positive for Matt Gibson equity, which which will 758 00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,680 be then focused on the development of kind of my gold 759 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,240 project in conjunction with 10 of my gold, both 10 of my gold 760 00:41:57,240 --> 00:42:01,280 and and and Matt Gibson. I'm sure it makes sense for 761 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,800 those two entities to come together, but there are 762 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,760 complications with the the the shared shareholding and. 763 00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:12,240 To act to merge with it's actually harder with a common 764 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:15,960 shareholder than it is the, you know, that related parties issue 765 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,200 means it's it's it's almost too odd. 766 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,280 So there's no reason that you couldn't look at an asset level 767 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,840 deal which had different percentages adjust from 5050. 768 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,840 But I think in this gold market, Tanamar are pretty confident 769 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:36,120 that they can raise money to maintain their 50% ownership of 770 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,080 the project. Yeah. 771 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:40,640 And there's a Phoenix shareholding as well, 10% 772 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,440 ownership of Phoenix. Which came about by the by a 773 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,400 sale to yes to to Phoenix, Yeah. And, and, and Matt, Matt Gibson 774 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,720 not only has it's, it's, you know, that was some of the 775 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:52,680 questions that came up at the AGM yesterday. 776 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,200 You know, is it, you know, why, what is the sudden jump? 777 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,280 Is this just an opportunistic thing? 778 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,640 Is it an AIPAC conspiracy thing? Why have you suddenly got into 779 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,000 this? But Matt Gibson have, you know, 780 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,120 they've been looking at, you know, possible alternatives 781 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,200 knowing that the island was going to run out for years and 782 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,640 they've got other equity stakes in in a little in copper plays 783 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,760 in various places. Substantive shareholding, 784 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,960 Marinin. Yeah, it's an substantial share 785 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,520 shareholding, yeah. Victory North. 786 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,600 Yeah. So there's there's there's a 787 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,280 whole basket. There's a whole basket of 788 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,000 things. And the idea there was that if 789 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,560 you get it's not it's similar to what? 790 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:38,000 What metals X is done was taking a strategic shareholding in 791 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,720 first tier, no elementos on a smaller scale, but in but a 792 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:46,520 similar idea. So it's looking not just at the, 793 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,400 the, you know, the gold opportunity, but a number of 794 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,520 copper and base metal opportunities, you know, in that 795 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,440 sort of Queensland central QLD regional area. 796 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,760 And, and, you know, again, they're looking at projects, 797 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,200 which would be a sensible jump given their sort of bulk 798 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,960 commodity mining operation. But there isn't many of them 799 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,680 around. The Phoenix one really came on 800 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,440 the back of the, the sale of that asset. 801 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,680 And Phoenix is a bloody good operation, Really clever, the 802 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,640 way that they've married that IP of infrastructure, IP of 803 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,840 transport and infrastructure into an iron ore mine to 804 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,720 actually get a lower transport cost, which has helped them 805 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:34,120 develop these isolated assets where no one else could have 806 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,120 done it before. Their wholeage costs are 807 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,640 gobsmackingly low. And it's, it's, it's, it's 808 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,360 state-of-the-art. If you ever get a chance to talk 809 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,520 to them, you know, the, the, the changeover, the preventative 810 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,600 maintenance, the, the satellite monitoring, the level of 811 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,800 automation or the on the trucks to make sure that you don't have 812 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,720 planned breakdowns. It's all really clever stuff 813 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:00,160 which has allowed them to do that. 814 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,840 So they're really, really sharp, sharp operation. 815 00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:06,160 It's mighty impressive what they've done and, and the, the 816 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,080 cost at which they can operate. I want to touch on on Tanamar 817 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,240 Gold just just once more, because when people run the 818 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,640 numbers similar to Meadows X, they, they see the cash, they 819 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,720 see what the market cap of the company is. 820 00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:19,520 And you've done the deal now with, with Tanamar. 821 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,080 That's clearly a key piece of it. 822 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,960 What do you feel is kind of misunderstood about the the 823 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,320 value in in the gold asset? I think joint ventures are 824 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,000 typically undervalued and there was just fatigue. 825 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,880 There was investor fatigue with Tanami because it just, it's 826 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,560 been sitting there undeveloped for so bloody long. 827 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,360 People got bored or frustrated with it. 828 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,400 You know, there's been a couple of long-suffering shareholders 829 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,840 there who sort of seen what we're trying to do. 830 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,520 But I think now there is a real opportunity to accelerate its 831 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,640 developments. It's not, it's not complicated. 832 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,760 It's actually the plan that Tanami took to Northern Star is 833 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,960 we put in an exploration decline. 834 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,600 That'll that'll cost like. 7070 with the because you're also 835 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,080 going to put all the surface infrastructure on to support it 836 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,280 yeah it's not a it's not a it's a cost which isn't lost because 837 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,080 one it opens up 6 or 7 levels that you could kick stop from 838 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,640 yeah and you're going to need a decline anyway once you start 839 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,760 mining look at refurbishing the existing process plant or or 840 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,760 building as lower cost new plant as you can it's. 841 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,040 A pretty, pretty old plant. It's a pretty old plant. 842 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,200 Yeah, maybe. Build a new one. 843 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,560 Yeah. No, but but the, the, the other, 844 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,440 the other value there is the permitting. 845 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:32,800 Yeah, yeah. Because you've got the 846 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,680 permitting for the tails, you've got the permitting for the 847 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,880 process plant, you've got the permitting for the runway and 848 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,680 all of that to get all that again now. 849 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,320 Yeah, is, is to do that and we, we reckoned you could get it 850 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:49,720 into operation or, but you know, between 200 and 250 million, 851 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,760 you'd still have to spend another 200 in sort of 852 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,720 sustaining capital to look at doing the non essential post 853 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:01,080 production things like upgrading the camp and all of the 854 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,480 upgrading the airstrip and some of the other bits and pieces. 855 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,760 And then you're, you know you're 1.21 point 5 million tonne per 856 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,520 annum, you know 3 to 4G a tonne producer are. 857 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,240 There refractory concerns. With no there is a significant 858 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:21,160 amount of refractory or but that's being excluded from the 859 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,000 modelling of the process plants. It's just a free milling stuff 860 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,440 to start with, you'd put in a pox plant later, you'd leave 861 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,880 space to put in a pox plant. Then you can bring in all of 862 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,480 that gyms is the exciting one. Just just have a look at the 863 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,720 drilling was at the last drilling results from gyms. 864 00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:38,840 That's that's, that's, that's, that's going to be good and. 865 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:42,960 That's. And it would be open pit. 866 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:48,600 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting to the to the stakes 867 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,760 that Mount Gibson has in in some, you know, junior miners or 868 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,560 developers. So there's there seems to be a 869 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,480 clear interest in some of that kind of Queensland. 870 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,400 Yeah area with with AIC mines Eloise very proximate to to 871 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,360 Marion and then then true, true North. 872 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,120 But those are the three that I I know that I know that and that 873 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,280 gives another has or. Has had yeah. 874 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,720 And, and, and we don't really have a clear favorite. 875 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:16,920 It's just we identified the the guys identified that there was 876 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:22,120 room to have a consolidation in that area where there's a number 877 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:27,680 of sub optimum sized base metal projects, which if someone could 878 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,120 get a get their foot on a number of them and pull them together 879 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,280 into perhaps a central processing plant, you you'd have 880 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,360 a different story. So that's kind of been the logic 881 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,800 behind that and it's now working through which is the best 882 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,600 starting point to able to make that happen. 883 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,880 If I, if I ask a bigger picture question in that neck of the 884 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,520 woods, obviously Glencore has been in the news a lot, Mount 885 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,880 Isa and everything. What, what sort of implication 886 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,760 does that have and has that changed how you think about 887 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,760 those assets there it? Shows if you cry enough, the 888 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,480 government will give you money. Glencore's not and this is 889 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,320 interesting. This is something from that I 890 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,200 picked up in, in the, the Shanghai Metal Exchange thing 891 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,400 with the, all of the smelters in China, people who just have a 892 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,320 smelter struggle. So if you're not integrated 893 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,560 upstream and downstream from the smelter, there's not a lot of 894 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,360 money left in smelting. So I'm not surprised, you know, 895 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,440 when Mount Isa was a, a booming, you know, operation with its own 896 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,120 minds and all of its fade, the smelter was probably making a 897 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,800 fair bit of money. Now it would be struggling. 898 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:33,720 To be fair, that was just a joke before. 899 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,280 Now it would be smelting because it's really hard to run a 900 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,840 smelter if you're not upstream and downstream integrated. 901 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,800 You hold that view across all all medals in this day and age 902 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:43,720 base. Medals. 903 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:45,680 If you just have a smelter, it's hard. 904 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,320 Yeah, yeah. There's, there's such value in 905 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,600 there in the, you know, in the, in the offtake. 906 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,960 Then if you're a producer. So how do you think about about 907 00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,800 Metals X's off taked supply as well? 908 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,640 We, we, we re tender our off take every year. 909 00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:07,960 Yeah, yeah. And we look at the lowest, we 910 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,120 look at the best commercial outcome for Middlesex. 911 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,800 When we do that tendering, we don't like to have just one like 912 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,160 what happened with COVID when the Malaysians called force 913 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,120 majeure. It's good to have more than one 914 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,080 smelter, but we tender that every year. 915 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:24,760 So right now it's Malaysia and China. 916 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,120 It was in years gone by also to Thailand, but that but that 917 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,280 dropped off recently. Yep. 918 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:31,040 What was the the rationale behind that? 919 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,960 Again, just. Commercial terms, yeah, Yeah. 920 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,040 And certainly all the way back to Metals X again, let's talk 921 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,480 about rentals because yeah, this is, this is another potential 922 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,360 use of of cash favorite CapEx, technological uncertainty or do 923 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,240 you think? It's pretty sure it's, it's, 924 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,800 it's hydraulic mining that's just pumping mud, fine regrind 925 00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,760 and differential float, making a copper float and a tin float. 926 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,160 It was more complex when the pyrometallurgical part was going 927 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,360 to be in Tassie as well. But we'll just make a, you know, 928 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,040 a commercial grade copper con and we'll make a tin con of 929 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,440 between 13 and 15%. Yeah, it's to get good 930 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,040 payability on. Yeah, because. 931 00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:21,520 It's the MPV of the project. Didn't change that much when we 932 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,440 took the pyrometallurgical part out because that was fairly 933 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,080 expensive. Oh, a lot of the upfront 934 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:27,680 capital. Yeah. 935 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,560 But also, you know, we aren't in the Takwine, but we're on the 936 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:32,640 edge of it. Yeah. 937 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,720 And so if you've got a buddy, big stack, regardless of whether 938 00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:39,920 you've got good gas treatment or not, it's visible from that main 939 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:44,160 road in and out of the Takwine. It's it's not going to be 940 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,320 popular. We would have had to bring in 941 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:52,840 coal because coal is a reagent coke and coal is a reagent in 942 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:58,240 the box fumes to be burning coal in the sort of clean Tasmania 943 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,000 branded area on the edge of the tacroine, which probably not 944 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,040 economic. Yeah, not environmentally or 945 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,040 from a stakeholder thing, a good idea. 946 00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:13,280 And there aren't a lot of pyrometallurgical people. 947 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,840 It's hard enough to get float plant operators in Tasmania to 948 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,520 get power metallurgical people to run a Box FUMA. 949 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,480 There's I don't think there's any other box fumes in Australia 950 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,880 would be difficult. So they're the reasons we 951 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,920 decided to let Unentin build the Box FUMA either in Thailand or 952 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,760 to reconfigure one of their ones in China and split the project 953 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,440 in two. I'd love to hear what the the 954 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,400 benefits of that partnership with with Yunnan more broadly in 955 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,280 the joint venture and if you're, if you're willing to, to share 956 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,200 any of that, the downsides of that structure. 957 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,760 I don't know if there's, as I said, it's a joint venture with 958 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,080 the joint venture Yunnan Tin's one of the largest tin and base 959 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,520 metal producing companies in the world. 960 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,320 So we've got access to all of their technical knowledge. 961 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,320 You know, they're representative on the JV committee's, got a 962 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,680 PhD. They, they, they're good, 963 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,360 collaborative, intelligent guys. So having access to all of that 964 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:20,120 is a real, is a real benefit. You know, we've, they will, they 965 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,280 are keen on rentals, which is great. 966 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,360 They, you know, they need concentrate the same way all of 967 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,160 the other smelters in China need concentrate because the, the 968 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:34,960 grade in their minds is falling. So there's no, there's no issues 969 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,600 with that. If there are funding issues 970 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:42,280 where perhaps one of that joint venture didn't want to fund its 971 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,840 share of rent house, then there could be some complexities. 972 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,760 But there are, there is a provision in the joint venture 973 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,720 agreement which lets one party sole source the development of a 974 00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:56,880 new capital project. Yeah, and you of course, you 975 00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,640 have to pay something for the use of the joint venture asset, 976 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,760 which is the tailings. But that's not, that's not, 977 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,720 that's just a commercial and that smelt a royalty type thing 978 00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:12,880 that you have to negotiate. So they if you took the scenario 979 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,920 that Middlesex sole source the development of rentals, the 980 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:22,880 existing joint venture agreement allows that to happen and and we 981 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,680 would just have to agree and that smelt a royalty associated 982 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,800 with the tin and the copper that was in the tailings that we were 983 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,480 processing in that sole finance project. 984 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:39,520 Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, with, with Stella 985 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,640 one more time. So Stella, they've, they've 986 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,960 struck it, you know? They've looked at the old 987 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:48,080 nickel. They've looked at the Avery 988 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,600 nickel plant, which which is a plant in need of a good ore 989 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:55,320 body. Are you worried that that that 990 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,920 that might find an alternative path to market that's not not? 991 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,800 In I'm not worried if they if they do that, that's fine. 992 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's probably not the most 993 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,640 sense. If it was me, I'd just put all 994 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,120 sortters in crush and grind and sort and ship a beneficiated 995 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,840 product to Renison. Much cheaper way of doing it 996 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:15,000 than all of that. Yeah. 997 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:17,760 The all sorting component is something they've looked at, 998 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,440 although obviously incorporated as well. 999 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,600 Yeah, yeah, we got, we got sorters at Renison and they're 1000 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,520 working well, yeah. Can we talk about the impact 1001 00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,640 that sorters are like the application of sorters too? 1002 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,560 They're not a magic bullet. Everyone who just published puts 1003 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,920 out an ASX release saying that sorters have beneficiated their 1004 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,080 all. Of course they're going to 1005 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,680 beneficiate their all, but it still means you've got to have a 1006 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,880 a project and an economic reason to actually be looking at 1007 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,520 sorters in the 1st place. Yeah, the technology works. 1008 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,840 They just change the sensors and it works on most store types. 1009 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,400 For most commodities, yeah. I've, I've, I've heard stories 1010 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,920 about some of these sensors now and like the yeah, the, yeah, 1011 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:00,760 the tech sounds like it's come a long way, right? 1012 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:06,800 Like the, the the the the ability to to to detect and also 1013 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,600 then like rapidly blow away. You know where the technology 1014 00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,320 came from. Was it the Argo? 1015 00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,880 No. No, no, no, that it started it 1016 00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,480 would no, it was treating municipal waste. 1017 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,400 So the municipal waste, the original trauma Ron stuff was 1018 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,040 municipal waste sorting where they had belts, where people, 1019 00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,240 the dump trucks that emptied in and it had sought out the metal 1020 00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:29,920 and the cardboard and all of that. 1021 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,320 So it's that's that's improved. That was the genesis of it, and 1022 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,320 then it. In what era? 1023 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,160 Oh, I. Don't know, 30 years ago, 20 1024 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,000 years ago, yeah, OK, yeah, but but now it's the but that's the 1025 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,640 same principle. You just need the correct sensor 1026 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,960 to differentiate the different streams and the software to 1027 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,040 understand what you're doing. There's a bit of work in making 1028 00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,360 sure you crush it to the right size and to screen it and to 1029 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,600 have what washed if it's a certain thing. 1030 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,280 But there's enough variation in sensing technology now, I think, 1031 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,320 to sort accurately most types of all. 1032 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:15,040 But you do lose stuff. So when you sort gold, you may 1033 00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:20,800 upgrade what you're feeding, but you do lose ounces, you know. 1034 00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,840 So yeah, we've looked at it for the operations in in Scandinavia 1035 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,720 and we're going to, we're going to put them in again now because 1036 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,760 we're capped in terms of the throughput of our flotation 1037 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,360 plant, their permits capped at a certain number of tons per year. 1038 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,320 So the only way we can increase gold production is to lift the 1039 00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,520 feed grade. But we didn't put them in 1040 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:44,440 previously because we would lose gold through the sorting. 1041 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,280 You lose a percentage of the gold. 1042 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,880 If you could do a, you know, you can't do heap bleach anymore, 1043 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,680 but if you could actually feed your reject stream to a gold, 1044 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,920 heap bleach would be OK. It's just you can't do that. 1045 00:57:54,920 --> 00:58:00,520 Anymore, Yeah, Renaissance, Renaissance as we look at that 1046 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:05,280 asset today like it's been producing a while the plan. 1047 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,080 Next, soon, we'll publish a new life of Mind. 1048 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,480 Yeah, and it's no shorter than our previous one. 1049 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:13,280 Previous one was, was it 10 years? 1050 00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,280 Yeah, so. 10 years at yeah, mostly 10,000 tons per annum. 1051 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:17,720 Yeah, yeah. What are the? 1052 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,160 What are the constraints to to output? 1053 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:22,600 The float, The existing float plant. 1054 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,760 The float plant, Yeah. And what's what are the mining 1055 00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,520 constraints? Oh. 1056 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,960 Not you could expand more fronts and you could mine more tons 1057 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,960 because we've got a hoist and a decline when we bring on ring 1058 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,960 rows. Ring rows is at a much higher 1059 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,320 elevation so that that if that whole body ends up being as big 1060 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,160 as it might be, that would that could bring you know that you, 1061 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,520 you may look at another portal. At the moment we didn't want to 1062 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:53,240 do that because we don't want additional surface disturbance 1063 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,800 disturbances. So we don't have any additional 1064 00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,120 permitting issues. So at the moment we'll just cut 1065 00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,560 a drive across and do it from underground. 1066 00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,720 But the mining has never been the constraint the ventilate. 1067 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,920 But when we we put in a fair bit of money to upgrade the 1068 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:12,320 ventilation, that was because it's a very hot mine, the 1069 00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,440 groundwater comes out at 6070°C, so it's an uncomfortable place 1070 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,440 for people to work. So the ventilation wasn't for 1071 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,480 fumes or air quality, it was just to bring to drop the 1072 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,600 working environment down so it was more comfortable or safer 1073 00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,000 for people to work. Gotcha, gotcha. 1074 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,840 I I'm just you say, I'm just trying to wrap around in my head 1075 00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,200 where the like where, where the capital allocation decisions 1076 00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,320 might be be best at at renison itself. 1077 00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,880 Is it, is it, is it ring rose? Is it? 1078 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,440 Is it? Well, Ring Rose will happen 1079 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,160 anyway. We've bought Ring Rose into the 1080 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,200 life of mine plan now with with what we know of it. 1081 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,560 There is a hybrid rentals that we're doing a side study on 1082 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,080 where instead of rebuilding the existing float plant, we 1083 00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,120 actually look at a different communication circuit and feed 1084 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,960 everything. Through an, through a slightly 1085 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:10,920 different flow sheet for rentals, Yeah, Tin plants, if 1086 01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,920 you've ever visited one, they have lots of separate little 1087 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:19,120 unit operations each recovering 5% or 2% or half a percent of 1088 01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,600 the tin. You could clean that up with a 1089 01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,160 completely different design plant from the very beginning. 1090 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,760 So we may look at it, we're doing a sort of concept study 1091 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,560 now that if we change the the communication circuit and then 1092 01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:38,920 change the the float circuits and we could probably eliminate 1093 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,840 20 or 30% of the smaller unit operations that we have in the 1094 01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:46,960 existing flow chart, which would debottleneck the existing 1095 01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,160 process plant and give us some more throughput there as well. 1096 01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,160 Yeah. What what is the sort of cost of 1097 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,880 upgrading that float plan if you have to get pinned to A to a 1098 01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,520 number on that? Through upgrading the existing 1099 01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,560 float plant? Yeah, in the life of mine plan 1100 01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,160 we've got, I can't remember which year it is, but we got 60 1101 01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,320 million in to upgrade the existing float plant. 1102 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,640 Yeah, Russia and the the, the. Cells are, all the cells are 1103 01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,360 very old, you know, we've, we've kept them going with patches and 1104 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,680 really welded on bits of stuff and but they are very old, yeah. 1105 01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:23,040 The the grade variability over over that life of life of mine 1106 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,200 you kind of expect similar to what it's been historically or. 1107 01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,880 Well, we've got for the next, I don't know, six years. 1108 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,480 We've got fairly high grade, yeah stuff, yeah. 1109 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,040 And we haven't, we haven't really done enough drilling in 1110 01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,080 the Ring Rose area, which is even higher grades than the high 1111 01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:41,120 grade stuff we've got out of the existing one. 1112 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,000 And the current current 10 prices, how much cash are you 1113 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,200 adding a month? Oh, I don't look at it on a 1114 01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:49,240 monthly basis. Have a look at it quarterly. 1115 01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:53,160 But it's it's, yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 30 to 50. 1116 01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,280 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, interesting. 1117 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,280 Sounds like costs will stay. Like yeah. 1118 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,960 Yeah, you've still got base CPI inflation. 1119 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,840 Wages go up by three percent, 4% each year. 1120 01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,240 Yeah, Powers has been cheap in Tassie historically. 1121 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,080 Yeah, I think. Cheap green power? 1122 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,080 Are you going to get a green premium anytime soon? 1123 01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,560 I that was actually one of my questions that I tabled at the 1124 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:25,040 team conference. Should we be worried Why that 1125 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:26,800 whole issue? I'm just being politically 1126 01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:31,120 correct now that whole that whole issue about a green 1127 01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,720 premium for metals, when you look at what people were talking 1128 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,320 about green premiums for nickel and Indonesia just came on 1129 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,120 making this relatively dirty nickel. 1130 01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,200 And you talk to the people and they say, well, we have to buy 1131 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,560 it for them because it's so much cheaper at the ITA. 1132 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,480 I've also at the teen conference in the the UK are also raised 1133 01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,800 the thing that there's just that we just don't see a premium for 1134 01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,400 green teen. So I'm right in thinking Ora 1135 01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,680 Peso gets 1000 bucks on or that they they. 1136 01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,120 It's a different smell. That's a different premium. 1137 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,320 That's that's a premium. You know, with tin, they don't 1138 01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,880 typically do swaps because there isn't a lot of tin production in 1139 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,520 there that the you get a premium because you're not having to pay 1140 01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,200 the freight costs of bringing the process tin from another 1141 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:19,000 location to that location. So that smell to premium is what 1142 01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,760 you get because you're producing locally and you have a much 1143 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:23,880 lower freight cost. It's not a green premium. 1144 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:28,760 Yeah, yeah. It's I sometimes laugh just 1145 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,560 thinking of the the the the universe of listed tin like 1146 01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,760 stocks because you don't get to count very much to to go 1147 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:38,680 through. There's really two options for 1148 01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,160 for investors to to choose because people aren't buying and 1149 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:43,400 it. Depends whether you prefer 1150 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:48,040 Tasmania or the Congo. Yeah, exactly. 1151 01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,600 And and. Well, if we simplify the 1152 01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:52,200 argument. Yeah, yeah. 1153 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,760 But there are the development companies now to be fair, you 1154 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,680 know the the Stellars and the Elementos and the 1st 10 and 1155 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,160 some of the other guys, they will get into production in the 1156 01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,160 sort of, you know, 2 to 8 year on frame. 1157 01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:07,600 Then none of them are really big. 1158 01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,360 Cornish. They honest, to be honest I'm a 1159 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,800 bit behind on Cornish. I've actually they sent me as 1160 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,360 packed over read recently but I just haven't had a chance to 1161 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,640 have a look at it. That's that's the only one that 1162 01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,840 probably has the the volume of tons that is yeah, like 1163 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:23,280 meaningful. Yeah, yeah. 1164 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:29,000 But yeah, your your, your, your perspectives on the whole 1165 01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,200 universe are really, really, really valuable. 1166 01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,720 The it's a Rome. Rome resources is a tin project 1167 01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:36,680 as well. Yeah. 1168 01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,400 Is that any good? We haven't bought any. 1169 01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,680 I'll take a look at it. There is a whole, there is a 1170 01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,480 whole central QLD tin belt which there's three or four people 1171 01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,720 sort of marketing projects at the moment. 1172 01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,240 And then around the the area that there's another one in 1173 01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,600 central NSW at the back of Orange. 1174 01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,040 What's that one called? That was first team. 1175 01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:07,200 No, no, that's this is it's not it's it's, it's very similar all 1176 01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:08,440 body. To Sky Sky Metals. 1177 01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,560 Sky Metals, Yeah, that's probably it's, it's not as far 1178 01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:17,200 along the the pathway as the, the, the first team guys are, 1179 01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,040 but similar sort of project and should work with a similar sort 1180 01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:21,560 of flow sheet. I went out and had a look at it. 1181 01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:23,040 They're doing all the right things. 1182 01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,000 It's just a little bit early in the development cycle for us to 1183 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:26,880 get involved. Yeah. 1184 01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:27,840 Yeah. That makes sense. 1185 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,000 That, that makes a lot of sense. Brett, is there anything we 1186 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,280 haven't talked about today that, you know, you think we should 1187 01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,640 have gone into detail? How do I get a T-shirt? 1188 01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:40,800 We've got actually might have something. 1189 01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,080 We can make that happen. Yeah, yeah, OK. 1190 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,640 It's not great. Great chatting with you, you 1191 01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:49,840 know, I hope that has helped a bit understanding team. 1192 01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,720 I hope it's helped a bit understanding sort of AIPAC and 1193 01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,280 and their strategy as well and. Yeah, I think they're not fun. 1194 01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,000 They're not the boogeyman is like a take away. 1195 01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,280 Like, you know, and I've had that perception in the past, but 1196 01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:02,400 you know, I can, I can see the strategy. 1197 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:04,080 I can see how they're aligned with other shareholders. 1198 01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:06,840 I can see that. Yeah, like maybe, maybe, maybe 1199 01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:09,400 dividends aren't always what you should expect, but that's OK 1200 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,360 because there's there's a thoughtful long term growth 1201 01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,000 agenda that might actually be benefit from the optionality of. 1202 01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:15,680 Pay dividends. Yeah, yeah. 1203 01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,360 I mean the head code they paid I. 1204 01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,120 Don't buy shares, you know, I, I think. 1205 01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,040 For people participating in the ASX in the resources space, it's 1206 01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,240 been a super helpful conversation to to help fill out 1207 01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,120 players in the market, miners in the market that are they've been 1208 01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:31,520 kind of ever present. They've been there for, for 1209 01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:33,000 quite some time. So I appreciate you making the 1210 01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:34,160 time for us, Brett. Cheers guys. 1211 01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:35,440 Thanks a lot for the opportunity. 1212 01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:37,320 Thank you very much. Much appreciated. 1213 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,000 We've got some big partners that we could not do this without. 1214 01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,040 Sure do mate. Sandvik Ground support the 1215 01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:43,520 legends. Check them out details in the 1216 01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:45,840 show notes. Focus the platform by market 1217 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:47,680 tech. Check out the Wicked platform 1218 01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,960 that they have put together. A local Aussie team doing God's 1219 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,920 work. Mate, it is a great place to to 1220 01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,360 trade, to to dissect, to analyse. 1221 01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,960 It is yeah, it's a it's a institutional platform to retail 1222 01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:00,680 price. Thank you. 1223 01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,720 It sure is, and there's a free trial in the show notes as well. 1224 01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:06,400 And last but not least, Intralinks. 1225 01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:08,360 Check out those legends as well. Goodaroo mate. 1226 01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:11,640 Udaroo. Now remember, I'm an idiot. 1227 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,360 JD is an idiot. If you thought any of this was 1228 01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:16,880 anything other than entertainment, you're an idiot 1229 01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:18,440 and you need to read out a disclaimer.