1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,520 Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,200 Torah related topics with our esteemed guests. 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,560 By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,000 addressed elsewhere, we aim to shed light on important issues 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,600 and inspire a return to the fundamentals. 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:33,480 Enjoy the show. Thank you Rabbi students, for 8 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:35,560 joining the Judaism Demystified podcast. 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,960 It's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for inviting 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:40,200 me. It's it's an honor and a 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,320 pleasure to be here with you. So to start, I just want to let 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 the audience know a little bit about you, your background and 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:53,000 particularly your work with the groundbreaking Hurim Torim 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,560 Musings blog. And what inspired you to create 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,280 such a platform and what impact has it had in your life? 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,800 So here's this thing. I'm, I'm just a, a regular guy. 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,200 I was working in business. I'm a little older than you and 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,360 probably some of your listeners. And I, I was around when the 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,920 Internet started and I was in the business world as the 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,360 Internet was brought into the corporate environment. 21 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,120 And it was interesting to me. And what I found is, you know, 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,200 you go to work all day, you focus on the business that you, 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,040 you're working in. And it, that's not where my 24 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,720 heart was. My heart is not in my job. 25 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,840 My heart is in my learning. And the Internet allowed me to 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,560 reach out to other people in similar situations who were 27 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,160 also, their heart was in the Torah while they're in the 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,000 business world. And so as the, the Internet 29 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,680 developed, I was sort of along with their, with the, in the 30 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,600 various different forums and e-mail lists that there were 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,040 exchanging Torah ideas with some really, really smart people on 32 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,160 the, let's say the avoda on the, the H dots lists, you know, some 33 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,520 really smart people, some of them rabbis, some of them just 34 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,760 regular balabatim, regular laymen, lay people, plenty of 35 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,759 women. And as blogs started taking off, 36 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:11,720 I, I took, and I noticed them as well. 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,880 And so let's say I think around 2004, there was a, A blog 38 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,560 discussing issues of, of halacha from a conservative perspective. 39 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,240 It was a scholar who affiliated with the Conservative movement 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,440 and I disagreed with his interpretations and his 41 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,280 presentation of, of halacha. So I started commenting there 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,000 saying, you know, I disagree. I don't think you're quoting 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,680 this right. And then I realized that, you 44 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,640 know, he's the owner of the blog. 45 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:39,320 He's up on top. I'm in tiny letters in the 46 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,480 bottom as a comment. I said, you know what, that's 47 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,640 not fair. I don't make my point as 48 00:02:43,640 --> 00:02:46,040 strongly as I could. Let me start my own blog. 49 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,280 So I started my own blog and I wrote about it. 50 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,480 By the way, these are, these are issues of LGBT and Halacha, you 51 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,240 know, so these, these were cutting edge. 52 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:58,400 They're cutting edge issues now, but even more so 20 years ago. 53 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,120 And that, you know, so I started my old blog and started talking 54 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,120 about it and people started coming and commenting and it 55 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,920 created a community. It was incredible. 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,000 And I, I said, OK, well, if they, if I have a community, 57 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,200 might as well keep going. And I kept writing and writing 58 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,960 and people were responding and talking and it, there was a 59 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,960 conversation going on. It's not just publishing an 60 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,680 essay in a newspaper is creating a community. 61 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,760 And what a lot of the people were using fake names. 62 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,560 I use the pseudonym at first as well. 63 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,680 And I'll tell you why. This again, even even 20 years 64 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,960 ago, I was considering getting a PhD and going into academia. 65 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,280 And when you talk about write about LGBT issues online, even 66 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,200 20 years ago, that's poison. And I figured I'd never be able 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,280 to get a job in academia. So I use the pseudonym. 68 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,400 Once I said, you know, forget academia. 69 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,280 I, I can never support my family on that. 70 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,560 I couldn't live in New York where, you know, I had roots. 71 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,200 I'd have to move out somewhere else. 72 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,160 So I said forget about academia. And then I used my real name, 73 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,600 although people think it's a fake name. 74 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,520 Anyway, Gil's student doesn't sound like a real name. 75 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,200 Let me just tell you briefly, because everybody asked me, 76 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,240 Student was my family name in Poland, in the shtetl. 77 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,160 I have documents, proofs, proof on the Internet. 78 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,640 And Gil is a common Israeli name, just uncommon in America. 79 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:15,920 That's beside the point. If anyone's watching the video 80 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,079 they could see I look like a Jew. 81 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,320 Well, we believe you. That's what counts so. 82 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,040 So, so this community just took off because blogs are relatively 83 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:27,920 new. There was, there had never been 84 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,760 a blog that is, that was focused on halafa and hashkafa, right? 85 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,840 Jewish law and Jewish thought quoting texts, because that's 86 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:36,360 what I do. I quote the texts. 87 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,320 I, I, I go deep into what the Rishonim say and, and what the 88 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,440 Gemara say and what the midrashim say. 89 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,880 And very often these are not the things they teach us in yeshiva. 90 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,760 You know, I, I, I'm a regular person. 91 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,160 As I mature and I grow, I start thinking about other issues, 92 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,040 bigger questions. And I started wondering how come 93 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:55,480 nobody taught me this in yeshiva? 94 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:58,280 So fine, I went to this farm store, I bought myself a rib 95 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:02,080 Saja gone, you know, Behuda Halevi, a moron devohim. 96 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,360 And I started reading through it and I started reading some of 97 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,880 the academic literature on the subject and just trying to 98 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,400 figure out the Jewish world while understanding that I'm 99 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,240 trained in the yeshiva world and I'm fully committed to halacha 100 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,120 and I'm fully committed to the Jewish community. 101 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,760 But, you know, what do our sages have to say about the important 102 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,640 issues of the day? And so I started writing about 103 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,960 it. As I was exploring and I was 104 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,160 seeing what academics and what traditional Tami Deshakamim had 105 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,800 to say about these things, I started writing about it. 106 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,000 And it turns out everybody's interested in the big issues of 107 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,440 the day. The question is, why don't we 108 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,320 learn this in yeshiva? I don't know, maybe the Shiva's 109 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,520 have changed since then, but I found a lot of people are 110 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,680 interested in that sort of thing. 111 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,040 And that just created a community and we kept going and 112 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,400 going from 2004. We keep going year after year 113 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,000 and I'm blogging at least once a day, five days a week. 114 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,040 It's an exhausting pace, up pace. 115 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,280 But this was my main outlet of Torah teaching and it helped me, 116 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,560 spurred me to learn. Also, let me tell, tell your 117 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:09,880 listeners a, a, a huge important life tip or what do they call 118 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,520 it? A life trick, a hack, a hack. 119 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,280 You set yourself deadlines that will force you to do things you 120 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:18,640 didn't think you could do. That's the whole, the whole 121 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,000 trick of Dafyomi. I mean, who can finish all the 122 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,360 shots and who could, who could commit to one daf a day? 123 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,120 But you set yourself a goal and you have a lot of peer pressure 124 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,440 to to do it. And you know what the human 125 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,600 being is, is capable of incredible things. 126 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,040 So when I had all these deadlines for the blog, I just 127 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,920 kept learning and writing and writing. 128 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,560 And thanks to all the wonderful commenters, you know, some of 129 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,200 the professors, rabbis are just brilliant people. 130 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,080 We, we exchanged a lot of ideas, a lot of different sources, a 131 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,680 lot of different reading material, further reading and, 132 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,240 and different opinions. It was, it was a fascinating, 133 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,200 fascinating ride that we were all on. 134 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,120 It was like a roller coaster just non-stop. 135 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,720 But as things go with technology, everything has a 136 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,840 short lifespan. You know, blogs were the big 137 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:09,600 thing when they were the big thing. 138 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,840 They were the big thing, you know, the Gooda convention, they 139 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,480 actually had in the Gooda convention, the main, the 140 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,400 keynote speech was about blogs. It was attacking blogs, but it 141 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,120 was about blogs. And I'll, I'll tell you this, I 142 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,800 mentioned in the book also Haim David Zui Bell, you know, the 143 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,320 executive, whoever the head of the good, he called me up in 144 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,680 advance to say, you know, what do I have to think? 145 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,120 What do I think about blogs? Because he had heard my name and 146 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,040 he recognized that I was a responsible person and a normal 147 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,440 person in the Jewish community, you know, not some renegade anti 148 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,840 rabbinic person. So he called me up and said, ask 149 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,400 for my opinion and my thoughts on what A blog is and what he 150 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,040 should be thinking about in terms of that. 151 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,520 And I've actually drove. I've never been to a good 152 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:58,000 convention before or after, but I drove that Mosse Shabbat, 153 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,880 Mosse Shabbos, I drove to, to, to, to that keynote speech and 154 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,960 heard all the speeches. Now I got to tell you what 155 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,520 rabbis we built was fantastic. You know, I'm, I don't affiliate 156 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,040 as an agudist as a part of the, the Aguda movement. 157 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,040 I'm more modern Orthodox than that. 158 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,560 But it, it was, I was impressed by who he is and, and what he 159 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:19,960 conveyed. Some of the other speeches were 160 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,960 just way over the top. I mean, it's quite offensive. 161 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:31,200 But putting all that aside, the after about nine years, I, I'd 162 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,000 realized the blog, this blog was over. 163 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,520 The world of the blogs was over. We had our heyday. 164 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,120 We were the, you know, the keynote at the Aguda convention. 165 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:40,799 You know, the RCA invited me to speak at two of their 166 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:43,400 conventions because blogs were a big thing. 167 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,520 But by, let's say 2013, you know, Facebook and Twitter had 168 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:50,600 taken over. Instagram was, you know, a big 169 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,400 thing. Blogs were sort of a has been 170 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,840 and I, I sat together with some other people and said, what 171 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,280 should we do instead? And we kind of tore up the whole 172 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,120 plan for the blog and we rebranded it as an online 173 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,640 publication, like a magazine called Torah Musings where we're 174 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,360 still talking about, let's say the cutting edge issues today. 175 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,560 It would be a O2 years ago it would have been AI. 176 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:17,760 Now everybody's doing AI but two years ago. 177 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,000 So what AI and things like that. But we're doing it in more 178 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,720 formal. We have an editorial board, we 179 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,520 have multiple contributors. So it's, it's more stable and 180 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,280 also allowed me to get on with my life. 181 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,640 So I'm not blogging five times a week, which is a crazy pace to 182 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,480 maintain. So, so that's, that's sort of 183 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,680 the history of the blog. And it's this book that I'm 184 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:42,840 publishing is marking 20 years since the beginning from 2004 to 185 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,240 2024, right? It's called articles of faith, 186 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,120 traditional belief, traditional belief in the Jewish era, 187 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:52,080 judicial Jewish relief in the Internet era. 188 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,040 And part of it is to tell the story of Hirhuri inventory 189 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:02,160 musings like I just gave you the the Roche Prakhin, the the, the 190 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:03,800 headlines, the bull points. Chapter heading. 191 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,600 So I, I actually wanted to answer something that you said 192 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,440 before you, you asked if the yeshivas have changed and I 193 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,800 don't think they have much because we have a podcast that 194 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,160 deals with the exact same thing. You know, we want to talk about 195 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:17,760 things that aren't really being discussed. 196 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,520 And you know, obviously I think you are, you are one of The 197 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,960 Pioneers, if not the pioneer that kind of led to, you know, 198 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,640 podcasts indirectly, you know, so you started these 199 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,480 conversations online. So we want to thank you for, for 200 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,200 your contributions. But I, I wanted to know how this 201 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,200 affected you personally in terms of like your outlook on things 202 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,800 'cause you're, you're mentioning that you're going back, you 203 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,320 know, it's forcing you to study, you're going to the Rito name, 204 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,240 you're going to the ghetto name. And a lot of times when you do 205 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,000 that, you, you start to notice that things are a little bit 206 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,360 different today and we're not really paying attention to the 207 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,720 richo neem and the gallon neem. So how has that affected your 208 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,880 outlook on on Hashkafa for example? 209 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,560 Well, personally, I, I went through different phases and at 210 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:10,280 one point I was very taken by academia and they're focused on 211 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:15,920 the rationalists and the, you know, around above all. 212 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,720 And over time I've become more disillusioned with academia. 213 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,400 I see in them the flaws that you see in most types of 214 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:32,640 scholarship, a lot of bias, a lot of not. 215 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,280 I, I, I've been unimpressed, unimpressed also with the piety. 216 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:42,960 And I take, I, I take religious practice and devotion very 217 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,040 seriously for two reasons. Number one, I am a true believer 218 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,040 and #2 I believe it's very important for family and 219 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:56,280 community to have that strong connection to very to, to 220 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,280 tradition and to, to piety. So I'm not big on minhagim 221 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,560 minhag and my family, my kids joke, oh, we, we only do half of 222 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:08,200 the minhagim just because everybody seems to be growing 223 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,640 and taking on extra minhagim. And I refuse to do that. 224 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,640 But my general approach is whatever minhagim I have, I have 225 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,480 regardless of where they came from, whether they're based on 226 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,000 Kabbalah or, or something else or even a mistake. 227 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,880 If I grew up with Osminhagim, that's what I have and that's 228 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,560 what I transmit to my kids. We could talk more about why I 229 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:32,400 why do that separately, But also I've come to be more of a, in 230 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,560 terms of halakha and also in terms particularly in terms of 231 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:39,480 halakha. I believe in the evolution of 232 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,200 halakha. I mean, it there was started at 233 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,400 one point and it has grown, it has changed. 234 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,720 It has gone through all sorts of interesting paths. 235 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,040 Some of them by I, I wouldn't say historical accident, but 236 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,760 just due to where things were. One of my examples is using an 237 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,600 umbrella on, on Shabbos. Is it actually a sort to use an 238 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,000 umbrella on Shabbat? Well, I think it it, it, it, it 239 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,600 started because of one person, Rabbi Heska Landau, the No W 240 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,720 Huda. He had a very strong opinion on 241 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,680 the matter. And even though later scholars 242 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:16,000 disagreed with him, his issuer held. 243 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,840 And at some point it just became taken for granted. 244 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,320 And at that point, I believe halacha evolved and we follow 245 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,720 where we are now and the past. I believe we're we again, 246 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:29,720 you're, you're asking me my personal beliefs. 247 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:30,920 And I'm not saying everybody has to. 248 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,400 I think what you're trying to say is that you, you see halacha 249 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,280 as having a certain hash kaha, that kind of let's it be where 250 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,360 it is today. And so that you, you, you take 251 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,240 on the authority of the whole essentially, if I'm not, if I'm 252 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,800 understanding you correctly. I think that's more mystical 253 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,720 than I want to be. OK, I say, I say that I live in 254 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,920 a specific time and place. There's a history and I follow 255 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,160 my I find my place in that history. 256 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,480 And that's, that's where I am. So we build on the the great 257 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,560 people who who preceded us and we put in our own, we create our 258 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:09,120 own link in the chain, but there are a lot of links before us. 259 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,640 And I don't want to, you know, skip over a few 100 years and go 260 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,320 prior to that. And I'm not criticizing what 261 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,480 anyone else is. You asked me in my. 262 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:21,440 Personal. If I had lived in the 1600s or 263 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,120 in the 1400s, I'd probably be very different than I am now. 264 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,440 But I was born in 1972 in a specific time in an Ashkenazic 265 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,240 community and in an out of town Ashkenazic community that 266 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:38,840 followed generally the litfish practices. 267 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,920 And that's where I'm happy and that's where I situate myself 268 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,080 and I continue in that path. Bolton Hashkafa as well. 269 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,880 I tend to affiliate with the the Mossar movement and their 270 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,760 teachings and it doesn't all sit well with me. 271 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:01,160 But overall, I, I feel that it feeds my neshama very well and 272 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,600 I'm very happy with where that takes me. 273 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:04,960 And I'm happy with what it has done. 274 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,240 How, how does it turn out for my kids? 275 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,560 My kids are now all grown up and they all find themselves within 276 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,760 that Musar yeshiva type of community. 277 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,280 And I'm very happy with, with, with how that has worked out for 278 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:18,400 us. I know it doesn't work well for 279 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,000 everybody. You just asked me where I am. 280 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,280 I, I also believe, I also believe, let me tell you, a lot 281 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,880 of people online think I'm either a left wing crazy or 282 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,680 right wing crazy. And I take that as a sign of 283 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,000 success. But really I believe, and this 284 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,160 is going to shock a lot of people, I believe in a broad 285 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,680 spectrum of Judaism. As long as you're within that 286 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,960 you'd Gimel Ikarim and the basic practice, I'm fine you. 287 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,280 Could be different, I absolutely. 288 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,360 To my left, you to my right. You know, very often left and 289 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,480 right doesn't even make sense. We call it left and right, but 290 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,000 it isn't left and right. It's just different. 291 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,440 And if you can see on my my bookcases, I don't know if 292 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,320 anyone could say, look, I have all the entire set of McCarthy 293 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,400 in from Rakhine, David Alevy. I've always chavotes right to my 294 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,240 side. I take from everybody, I love 295 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,880 everybody. I tend to stay away from the 296 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,440 Mystics 'cause it just doesn't speak to my neshama. 297 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,560 I have nothing against them, but Khasidis just rubs me the wrong 298 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,760 way. And Kabbalah. 299 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,800 I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying it doesn't sit well 300 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:19,880 with me. That's not my thing. 301 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:27,040 You know, I, I resonate with you because I, I too had, you know, 302 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,480 I have a yeshiva background. I, I didn't grow up in a like 303 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,240 traditional Orthodox home where like yeshiva from, like, you 304 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,840 know, yeshivish atmosphere from when I was like a little boy. 305 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:44,400 But my journey through Judaism basically was about, I would say 306 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,520 about 567 years of intense yeshiva study. 307 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,480 And I embraced the yeshiva world. 308 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,960 Now, I didn't necessarily turn out maybe the way they could 309 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,240 have liked. But when you said like, you 310 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,800 know, I'm a believer and you know, like there's certain 311 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,119 things that like, you know, this is my core. 312 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,480 I, I highly resonate with that because I feel the exact same 313 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,960 way. Like I think that we criticize 314 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,400 and sometimes rightfully so, we, we criticize you. 315 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,560 She wrote for certain things. One of it is the lack of, of 316 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,560 open mindedness and rigidity that comes along with it. 317 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,119 But at the same time, I also have to show my intent, like my 318 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,119 appreciation, because I do know that my core is really it, it, 319 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,560 it's strong because of those times. 320 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,040 Do you understand what I mean by that? 321 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,320 Yeah. And I think what you're saying 322 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,280 is you criticize out of love, and that's very different than 323 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,440 criticizing out of anger or out of hate. 324 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,240 Exactly. Yes, thank you very much for 325 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:43,760 saying that. That is exactly what I was 326 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,960 trying to say. I appreciate that you helped me 327 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,080 get there. I'm sorry I turned this into 328 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,880 like a group therapy session, but you know, I feel like we're 329 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,680 saying important things. It is important and it's real 330 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,920 life and people you know, and you mentioned the Internet. 331 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,480 I think that, you know, I think you have a whole chapter, I 332 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,040 believe about Internet and you talk about the pros and the cons 333 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,200 and you and you weave through it very nicely. 334 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,360 There's, there's what to criticize, there's problems with 335 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:15,000 it, but one thing that you that you can say is the Internet did 336 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:20,800 give people a channel to be able to express and be curious about 337 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,640 things that they are curious about. 338 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,080 That the issue of the world simply won't allow you to talk 339 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,920 about it out loud. And these are important things. 340 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,160 These are things that that matter. 341 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:37,360 You know, the, the, the, there's the topics and the questions and 342 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:41,520 the facing modern, modern modernity. 343 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,680 That's the proper way to say it. These are real things for a lot 344 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,080 of people. And the Internet kind of gave a 345 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,880 channel where people like you, serious people. 346 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,800 I'm not talking about like, you know, there's a lot of like 347 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,400 garbage, but serious people that want to have real discussions 348 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,320 and talk about real problems and real issues and, and confronting 349 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:04,040 real problems of today. We're able to really channel 350 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,880 that And you know, the Internet is largely responsible for that. 351 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:09,800 And I think it's a positive development from that standpoint 352 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:10,800 and. And we and. 353 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,320 I'll go, sorry. Go. 354 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,960 Ahead, I'd go even further and I'd say a lot of the community 355 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,960 leaders today, again, we're talking about what's happened 356 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,720 over 20 years. There are rabbis, there are 357 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,280 community leaders, there are scholars, and there are 358 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,240 activists who were raised on these conversations that we had 359 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,840 20 years ago. And we have made serious change. 360 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,040 Rabbis come up to me. The younger rabbis, they treat 361 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,560 me like I'm the Rebbe or something like that. 362 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:42,360 I don't even know who they are, but they listen to us talk and 363 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,720 they it, it affected them. I'll tell you a funny story. 364 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,520 So my son got married about a year ago, a little over a year 365 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,080 ago. Thank you. 366 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,240 Thank you. He's, let's say one or two steps 367 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,160 to the right of me and he married into a yeshivasha 368 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,600 family, not to yeshivash, but whatever, beautiful people, 369 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,640 wonderful people. So at the Shabbos Sheva brachas, 370 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,080 right Ashkenazi, we, we don't have Shabbat khatan, we have 371 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,760 Shabbos Sheba brachas. So I'm in their out of town 372 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,640 community where they are and we're domining in the yeshiva 373 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:21,120 and background. My name is Gil Ofer student. 374 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,440 My mother is Israeli. She named me Gil Ofer. 375 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,960 They called me up. So Friday night, one of the 376 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,800 rabbis from the yeshiva was at the dinner, you know, at the 377 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,800 Chevy Broncos. And he says, oh, I've been 378 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,040 reading your stuff for years. I remember we used to, you know, 379 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,120 read it in the Bismetris with all these controversies and, and 380 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,920 you know, he, he's very sheepish, but he was reading it. 381 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,880 They're printing it out from the blogs and they're reading it in 382 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,320 the Bismetris. And then he's also the Gabi in 383 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,160 the in the Shoal in the Shiva. So when he called me up for for 384 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,920 an Aaliyah, I believe him when he said it was completely 385 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,480 accidentally, but he called me up as Gil Kofer, not Gil Ofer. 386 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:58,560 Oh no. I think it was. 387 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,840 I thought it was so funny, I didn't say anything. 388 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,640 My Mahutan also managed to stifle a laugh. 389 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,320 Afterwards. I asked him, you know, I said, 390 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,960 did you do that on purpose? Because it was brilliant and he 391 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,120 was so horrified that he he didn't do it on purpose. 392 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:14,000 It was so he was horrified that he said. 393 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:17,320 Oh my gosh. I ever sense of humor. 394 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,200 I enjoy these things. This, this, this is the best for 395 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,200 me. I wish he had done it on 396 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:22,520 purpose. I would have given him so much 397 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:23,880 more credit. That's really funny. 398 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,280 That's really funny. Yeah. 399 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,520 So I mean, just to echo what you're saying, you know, we, we 400 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,760 are big proponents of the marketplace of ideas, you know, 401 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,000 bringing that into, back into Judaism, because I feel like 402 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,520 that is the essence of of, you know, our tradition. 403 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,840 And, you know, today, obviously there's a cancel culture within, 404 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,760 within our religion, unfortunately. 405 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,120 So all these conversations really like podcasting or for 406 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:53,040 example, like Benzi. Benzi will attest to this. 407 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,240 We've had people like e-mail us, like you booked and and, you 408 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,640 know, rabbis from Muncie were like saying like, thank you for 409 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,000 talking about things that we can't speak about. 410 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:06,480 You know, you're addressing issues that are a little bit 411 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,480 because we're just regular guys, but it's for for many people, 412 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,600 it's just it's an outlet and it's I think it's a healthy 413 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,920 outlet as long as we're being respectful. 414 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,320 Like we, we obviously come from a more Sephardic, Maimonidean, 415 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:19,600 rational, whatever you want to call it. 416 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,320 We come from that kind of background. 417 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,440 But you know, we're not, we're not saying that, you know, this 418 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,960 is the way and this must be the way everybody follows. 419 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,760 We just want there to be a voice for this perspective. 420 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,240 And for many years, you know, we felt like this was kind of 421 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,880 being, you know, suppressed. And finally now we're just 422 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,640 seeing more and more and more of this coming out, more great 423 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,640 content coming out, for example, leading into the next question, 424 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,320 which is about Rabbi Sachs. I think Rabbi Sachs had a lot to 425 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,680 do with that as well. Yeah. 426 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,160 So Rabbi Sachs to us is, you know, one of our heroes. 427 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,120 And we, you know, we think that he just opened up so many doors 428 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,040 and he's only going to be appreciated like in a century 429 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,440 from now, I think people will truly appreciate him then. 430 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,880 So I'll just lead Bensi into the next question. 431 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,440 Yes, and this was my personal favorite chapter and every 432 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,400 chapter was good, but this chapter really spoke dearly to 433 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,600 my heart because this was this is an important, an important 434 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,520 subject regarding Rabbi Sachs, in your book, you examine 435 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,520 Judaism's relationship with other religions. 436 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,600 Rabbi Saxon's perspective in his book Dignity and Difference. 437 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,640 Dignity of Difference, I believe. 438 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,240 The dignity of difference. Dignity of difference, right? 439 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,640 Dignity of difference sparked significant discussion. 440 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,760 Can you briefly explain this controversy and do you believe 441 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,920 his approach is acceptable according to Missouri? 442 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,000 OK. So I don't. 443 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,120 I don't want to overstate my case and I'll just say from my 444 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:58,880 perspective in America, politics in any other country is always a 445 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,840 little difficult for us to understand. 446 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,960 They have a different England is has a very different culture 447 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,960 than the US and you know, New York, where I'm where I'm from. 448 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,360 But from what I understand whereby Sachs published the 449 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:17,840 Dignity of Difference as response to 911 and to as a call 450 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,840 to use religion to to increase understanding and harmony in the 451 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,080 world. It was not directed at the 452 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,600 Jewish audience. But he was using primarily 453 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,480 Jewish sources and texts. And when speaking to the non 454 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:39,080 Jewish audience he said or wrote certain things that in within 455 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:44,720 the Khareti community in England they found theologically 456 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,720 objectionable. They thought the hash kafah was 457 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:51,800 off and far off to the point that I believe, I don't want to 458 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,640 say it was the London Beddin, the Beddin of London, which was 459 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,800 his personal Beddin, but I think it might have been unless it was 460 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,520 another Beddin in in in England was very close to denouncing 461 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,960 him. And, and what ended up happening 462 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,400 is he, he published a, a revised edition in which he adjusted, 463 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,600 changed some of the language to accommodate his criticisms 464 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,400 without giving up too much. Now, part of the brilliance, 465 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,840 part of his brilliance is many levels of his brilliance. 466 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,280 Part of the levels of his brilliance is his eloquence. 467 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,760 And he can say such grand things even while changing the 468 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,800 language. It, it was, it was very 469 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,080 impressive. But what I did when I heard 470 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,760 about this, I said I got to get both before and after like that, 471 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,880 the original edition and the revised edition. 472 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,720 I sat down. I do this on the subway on the 473 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,920 way to work. I put them both on my lap and 474 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,840 started comparing word for word, underlining in red any changes 475 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,400 he made in the new edition. So I can understand what was he 476 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,640 criticized for because the criticisms were never really 477 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,760 publicized. And as I as I compared and the 478 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,680 the the main culprit was a chapter 3 in the book, if anyone 479 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,400 has it. And that's when he talks about 480 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,920 other religions. And you know, he said he said 481 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,360 some things that should strike you as wild. 482 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,400 For example, he says that God speaks to every religion, you 483 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,960 know, everyone through their own religion. 484 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,120 And you know, as as a Jew, as a monotheist, you think every 485 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:19,200 religion. Are you crazy? 486 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,000 What Christianity, Hindu. You know, there are all sorts 487 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,440 of, there are all sorts of, you know, borderline Avodah Zara 488 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,680 religions and there are some that are explicitly Avodah Zara. 489 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,600 I remember one time I went to the Lower East Side to, to, to 490 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,560 get some to go to a foreign store there. 491 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,120 Literally next door. As I walked by, I, the door was 492 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:42,200 open. So I kind of looked in. 493 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,120 They were worshipping an idol right there. 494 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,320 Literally, I saw people worshipping an idol. 495 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,080 I don't know, do I tear Crea? What do I do? 496 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,920 You know, how could you say that? 497 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,000 But the Gospel is a New Testament is, is God speaking to 498 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,920 Christians and, and the Quran is God speaking to Muslims. 499 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,320 It, it was, it's just, it's, it's very challenging, very 500 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,200 challenging. So, and he changed that. 501 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,720 He revised the language a little bit. 502 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,840 But, you know, after I thought about it some more, you know, I, 503 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,840 I, I, I'm not so sure that he really needed to, I mean, what 504 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,120 does it mean? First of all, you have to 505 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,960 understand that Rubber Sax was a poet and he used poetic license 506 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,880 when he was speaking and who was writing. 507 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,720 I remember in one of the eulogies or the, the, not the 508 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,920 eulogies, but published in the newspaper by I think Rabbi 509 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,800 Yitzhak Shokreit in, in England, he, he wrote, I once asked Rabbi 510 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,760 Sacks, how could you say this? And Rabbi said about something 511 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:36,920 else. And Rabbi Sacks said to him, 512 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,960 yes, look, I'm a poet. I have to express myself in 513 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,840 these, in these, in these big terms, you know, and if you take 514 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,720 that into account, so, So what I started thinking is, you know, 515 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,040 well, how does God speak to me? How does God speak to any of us? 516 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,240 There's no nuvoir anymore. So how does he speak to us? 517 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,560 Does he speak to us? So going throughout history, 518 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,840 this is something that that the Jewish philosophers have 519 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,000 discussed. How does God speak to us at any 520 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,680 given point? There's an amazing, an amazing 521 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:12,560 text from one of the giants of of Mussar, Avram Grudzinski. 522 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,160 He was the he's the Hashem Yukong Damo. 523 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,960 He was killed in the Holocaust. He was the last mashiach of the 524 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,880 Shiva and Sabadka. He was the brother-in-law of 525 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,920 Raviakov Kameneski. And he published a lot, even 526 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,160 towards the very end of the Holocaust, during the Holocaust, 527 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,000 he's still publishing and his sons or his family and Israel 528 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,080 published, put it all together in a in a book called Tarat 529 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,040 Abraham. And he has a whole section on 530 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,160 the what he calls Tarat Taisuri. And he says there's no nivua 531 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,840 anymore. So how do we hear Hashem? 532 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,880 Hashem speaks to us through our suffering and it's upon us. 533 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,960 It's on us when we suffer, when we bad things happen to us. 534 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,360 To think what is the message that Hashem is sending us? 535 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,320 That's that's a powerful, powerful for and also for 536 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,320 someone like him who personally suffered from illness and then 537 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,840 from the Holocaust, from him to say that it's telling us all of 538 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,880 us. Hashem punishes everybody. 539 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,120 Mida connected Mida, and we have to look, sometimes you have to 540 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,440 be a little more creative in what the media connected media, 541 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,040 media is to understand. It should speak to a rabbi. 542 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,240 Don't try to figure this out on your own. 543 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,200 People can come to all sorts of crazy conclusions, but through 544 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,240 sober analysis and sober thought, we can often find what 545 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,240 is Hashem telling us. But putting that aside, when 546 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,720 when Rabbi Sacks says that Hashem speaks to people through 547 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,360 their religion, he didn't make that up. 548 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,680 Roundbaum himself says that Rambam himself says it Rambam 549 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,520 and is censored from the standard, the old editions of 550 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,560 the Mishnah Torah. But now we have all these 551 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,440 wonderful editions. We see that he Rambam explicitly 552 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,040 says why. Why is there Christianity? 553 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,400 Why is there Islam? Why are they spreading 554 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,160 throughout the world? Because Hashem is spreading the 555 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,760 truth through these false religions and Rambam considered 556 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,360 Christianity to be of O Dazaran. Not everybody does. 557 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,680 Rambam does, but he still says that Hashem is spreading truth 558 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,280 throughout the world. The truth of Tanakh, truth of 559 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,720 Mashiach, these are ideas that have become common that 2000 560 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,360 years ago were not common and now you could go anywhere. 561 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,760 The Christian missionaries have reached every nook of the jungle 562 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,760 and they know about Tanakh throughout the world, and they 563 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,400 know about the idea of mashiach throughout the world. 564 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,080 Their idea of mashiach is wrong. It's, it's not, it's not the, 565 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,520 the classical view of Mashiach, but it's a step towards the 566 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,680 right direction. And according to the Rambam and 567 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,200 also the Kusari says this, the Rambam says this, this is not as 568 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,960 an obscure of view. This seems to be a mainstream 569 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,400 view. Maharaj Svihersh Hayat Hayas. 570 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,240 He was, he was an Ashkenazi. He, he actually signed his name 571 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,000 in English. He, he spelled it Hayas. 572 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,640 So Svihersh Hayas and races in the introduction to his safer of 573 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,240 Chuvote, he quotes this round bomb and this Kuzari, the idea 574 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:06,400 that Hashem spreads truth through these, these religions 575 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,200 that we consider we believe are objectively false. 576 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,400 But there is truth in it. There's truth even in the false. 577 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,840 So I, I, I don't know, I, I reread Rabbi what Rabbi Sacks 578 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,960 had to say in light of these ideas. 579 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,320 And I see, I see a wonderful, brilliant insight that we can 580 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,040 even think, you know, the, the, the Rashoni and we're only 581 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,840 talking about Islam and Christianity, but we live in a 582 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,440 global village. And this probably applies to 583 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,960 any, any religion out there, just about any religion that, 584 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,640 that really a lot of these religions are, you know, we see 585 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,760 in the secular world. I apologize if this is too 586 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,560 political for some people. I, I'm trying not to be 587 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,960 political, but we do see that secularism generally breaks down 588 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,520 families, breaks down communities. 589 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,480 But a lot of these, even of ODA Zara religions hold together the 590 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,600 communities, hold together the families. 591 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,280 And there's, there, they are the last step between total chaos 592 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,520 and, and communities falling apart. 593 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,040 There's, there's some truth in that. 594 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,920 So I think when Rabbi Sachs says there's truth in these 595 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,440 religions, he's talking about these, these, these kinds of 596 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,560 concepts. Not that Shalom that the Quran 597 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,480 is true and Hashem communicated the Quran to the, the Muslims 598 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,120 or, or the, you know, the gospels are true and Hashem 599 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,480 communicated. I don't think that's what he 600 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,840 meant, what he meant. And. 601 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,240 In fact, I, if you read Rabbi Sachs's final book, at least I 602 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,160 think one that he published before they published others 603 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,520 after he passed away, but he wrote the book Morality. 604 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,200 You're probably familiar with it. 605 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,960 I, I think that book is important because he's showing 606 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,080 how conventional morality is so important to the world and how 607 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,280 it it keeps it keeps everything together. 608 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,200 Like you're trying to say religion is a, is an important, 609 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,440 regardless how true the divine word is in Christianity or 610 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,040 Islam, but this to, to have these principles guide humanity, 611 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,080 religious principles guiding humanity, even if it's not pure 612 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,080 truth, there it, it, it's important. 613 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,320 It, it, it moves the world forward in in a positive way. 614 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,920 He he kind of laid the groundwork in that book morality 615 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,880 to kind of show some of it, not all of it, but I think I think 616 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,800 that kind of fits with what you were saying. 617 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:17,960 Yeah. We see it as Americans. 618 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,200 You know, the the started with, you know, trying to take God out 619 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,480 of the public schools, then, you know, getting rid of, you know, 620 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,440 trying to burning the flag, destroying statues, you know, 621 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,760 you name it, just kneeling for the anthem. 622 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,400 These are all symbolic, you know, things that used to be, 623 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,080 you know, a source of our national pride and some a sense 624 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,520 of community gave us a sense of community. 625 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,480 And we see as those things are slowly, slowly being destroyed 626 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,600 by secularism, you know, the, the civilization kind of falls 627 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,480 apart. So that that goes very well with 628 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,800 what you're saying in fact. I even you know, they wanted to 629 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,160 they wanted to censor Rabbi Sacks. 630 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,520 Are you familiar with Remosha Weinberger? 631 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,560 Probably sure in. H Kurdish, right? 632 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:04,880 H Kurdish, right. So he. 633 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,040 Used to teach in Nazareth Academy. 634 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,040 I was a student in Nazareth Academy way back in the day. 635 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,120 I remember this very clearly because it surprised me when he 636 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,719 said this. Like my eyebrow went up but he 637 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,320 said he's like we were talking about like would you prefer 638 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,040 someone be a Christian or not a Christian? 639 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,960 Meaning would you prefer a guy not be a non believer in Jesus? 640 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,320 And therefore away from. The truth Or be a believer in 641 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,560 Jesus and live a conventional Christian life. 642 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:38,000 He said to us in class, he's like 100% I prefer the person 643 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,159 believe in Jesus and live a like a moral Christian life. 644 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,159 I respect that much more than a person that believes in nothing. 645 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,040 So let's go censor over one. I mean, what I'm trying to say 646 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,040 is it's like you're saying it's not. 647 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,960 This is not such a, you know, controversial idea if you really 648 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,280 think about it. Religion. 649 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,080 If you're, if you're a believer in the, in the productivity and 650 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,040 in the benefit of religion, then yes, all these religions 651 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,160 becoming so big. And so. 652 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,720 So what's the word I'm looking for? 653 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,120 Worldwide is a positive development. 654 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,880 And and and. Just to point out, I believe 655 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,400 this is not as going as far as the Meiri does. 656 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,920 Meiri basically says that any religion which is civilized is 657 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,320 not a vodazarah. We're saying, yeah, it's a 658 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,080 vodazarah. And Even so, Even so even. 659 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,600 So is good to some degree. And, and by the way, it's not 660 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,000 just Rabbi Weinberger this, I heard this from Rabbi David 661 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:39,720 David Bleich. He told me this story. 662 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,120 I think he published it Also, the Chavez Haim would tell 663 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,240 people that if you're getting a taxi driver, a wagon driver, and 664 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,320 when he passes by the church, if he doesn't do a sign of a cross, 665 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,040 he's scared, you know, 'cause if he's religious, he then, then he 666 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,360 probably won't hurt you. But if he's, if he doesn't have 667 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,200 a fear of God, you don't know what he can do. 668 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,720 And that's the first time. Of course, there's always the. 669 00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:04,240 Other side of the story that people manipulate and abuse 670 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:09,080 religion to prey on the weak. And you know, these are the 671 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,920 things that need to get cleaned up, of course. 672 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,880 But on the whole and on at least idealistically, religion is 673 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:23,160 supposed to bring bring humanity into a better place, family and 674 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,760 values and morality and you know, all those types of things. 675 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,760 And I think Rabbi Sachs was doing a service by saying that a 676 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,120 person should not we, we shouldn't be trying to dissuade 677 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,680 a Christian or religious Christian in the South in Texas 678 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,160 from, you know, don't believe in what you believe in and just go 679 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,520 into just secularism and, and nothing at all. 680 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,560 That's, that's, there's nothing positive that's going to come 681 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,440 out of that Nothing. And eventually, and it's all 682 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,080 based and it's all bit like the Rambam says, it's all really 683 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,840 based on the Old Testament, meaning it's, it's not based, 684 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,400 but developing from the Old Testament, which keeps the Torah 685 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:09,760 consciously alive all over. So, you know, Dash the the 686 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,400 capability of of Hashem, Dash Kaha to take that fact and 687 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,360 eventually, you know, bring it into something, you know, 688 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,760 whenever that will be is always available. 689 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,080 I hope I made sense, Rabbi Sacks. 690 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,600 Actually just reminded me now, he used to have these like 691 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,560 interesting series that he did on Rosh Hashanah. 692 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,200 He did like talks with like Richard Dawkins and I remember 693 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,320 one of the one of the episodes he got him to admit that, you 694 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,520 know, good religion. I forgot the exact quote, but 695 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,800 good religion is preferable to no religion at all because 696 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,480 because even Dawkins kind of admits over there that, you 697 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:51,960 know, that we don't want to, we don't want to. 698 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,120 There's values, certain values that religion brings that you 699 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,880 can't, you know, altruism and so on that you can't really deny. 700 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,160 And they're very, very powerful. So I thought that was a very eye 701 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,840 opening interview as well. I think you're referring. 702 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,720 To the answer to bad science is not no science but right and 703 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,200 also. Religion he brought and the same 704 00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:10,360 goes with the. Religion, of course. 705 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,640 Yeah. Oh wow, that's. 706 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:13,320 Powerful. That's fantastic. 707 00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:16,320 Yes, so. Moving on to the next question, 708 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:17,840 which is also relate to Rabbi Sachs. 709 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:25,080 So he often interpreted Gare as a stranger, a broader definition 710 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,040 in the traditional rabbinic view. 711 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,120 From your perspective, is this interpretation viable within our 712 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,640 tradition, which is a convert and can you and how do you 713 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,520 address this topic in your book? So this, this I've, I've, I've 714 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,160 heard this, I heard this criticism within the Saint 715 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,040 Modern Orthodox intellectual circles quite a bit that Rabbi 716 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,760 Sachs goes too far. Because the Gemara is very clear 717 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,560 that when the Torah speaks about Ager, it's referring to a 718 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,120 convert Agerzedek, either Gedzedek or Gertoschev. 719 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,200 It doesn't mean just a stranger. And Rabbi Sachs continually 720 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,280 repeated, repeatedly said it means a stranger. 721 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,440 So what I. Looked into this and I wrote 722 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,520 about this and this is a chapter in the book. 723 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,240 There's a a big development that happened after I had already 724 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,680 finished the book. But let's let's let's go to the 725 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,520 the very basic and and this is actually published in the 726 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,800 journal tradition, a criticism of Rabbi Sachs for talking about 727 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,320 a stranger as if it refers to any stranger and not a Garrett 728 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,440 Seddick, a convert to Judaism. The the very basically, it's 729 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,320 true that that is what the Gemara says, but the seifer 730 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,840 Arkrinoch, which is medieval work of Jewish halacha and 731 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:49,320 Heshkafa, right, Jewish thought says that on that mitzvah of of, 732 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,640 you know, not oppressing ager and loving a loving ager says, 733 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:59,360 yes, the halacha refers to a convert, but more generally, Al 734 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,920 Derek Hamoussar, we can learn from it how to treat any 735 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,440 stranger who's not in his normal land, anyone who comes from a 736 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,240 different land at which we know. Of course, if you're a stranger 737 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,520 in a place you don't know your way around, you need help, and 738 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,760 the Safer Hinoch is very clear that this is the proper approach 739 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,000 to apply to anybody. Even if it's not a convert, even 740 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,680 if it's not a Geert Toshav, not a Geert Sedek, it still applies 741 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,840 to them. And they mean a very shivish 742 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,640 saver written by Asfarde. He, he, he said, he points this 743 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,760 out, he points this out. He says this is the, the safer 744 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,560 he know. He's saying this is not a 745 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,960 halacha, but it's more an ethical consideration that an 746 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,280 ethical obligation, Derek Hamoussar. 747 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,120 It's an ethical obligation that we should treat any stranger 748 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:49,800 with the care and respect that the Torah says. 749 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,880 And this is really what Rabbi Sachs is saying. 750 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,920 Rabbi Sachs is riddushir, it's not British, it's the Rishonim, 751 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,880 it's the safer renov. And and we could go even 752 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,560 further, the Avram Binaramba, Avram Binarambam and Parshad 753 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,120 Mishpatim, when he talks about this, he says explicitly Hakamim 754 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,520 say it talks, it's talking about Aguirre Sedek or a Ghirto Shaf. 755 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,240 But the Chutoshamicra is that is talking about any stranger who 756 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,960 is not in his normal land and we have to take that as an 757 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,160 obligation. And this goes into a his general 758 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:29,200 approach over Binoranbum that Sutoshal Mikra is, is 759 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:30,800 obligatory. It obligates us. 760 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,880 It doesn't contradict the halacha, the Midrash halacha. 761 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:35,400 We have to do the Midrash halacha. 762 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,040 But in addition to that, if we see something in Sutoshal Mikra 763 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,040 and the simple meaning of the, of the verses, if we see 764 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,040 something else that is also obligatory on us hilarchically. 765 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,080 And this is a general approach. And I, I believe in the book, I 766 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,280 talk about it a little bit more and I bring it to some more 767 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,680 Rishonim and Afranim who also take this approach. 768 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,360 But I'm sure some of the listeners can think of other, 769 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,320 other examples. You know, for example, the, 770 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,600 there's a, the humra of the Bach that on, on Sukkot, the first 771 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,920 night of Sukkot, you have to explicitly remember or say out 772 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,960 loud that we're sitting in the Sukkah because Hashem took us 773 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,120 out of Mizraim. And he, you know, and he kept, 774 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,360 he protected us in the desert with the ananaha kavod and with 775 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,680 the, the actual Sukkot and the Bach seems to have made it up. 776 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:26,800 Where does the Bach get this from? 777 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:29,800 And, but all the acronym, not all there. 778 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,920 Many of the acronyms say, at least initially, you should try 779 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,120 to make the effort to say that in Asuka on the first night we 780 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,040 are sitting here because Hashem took us out of out of Mizraim 781 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,680 and he protected us in in Asuka. Where does that come from? 782 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,480 It comes from the Bach reading of the verse. 783 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,280 The Torah says that the reason we sit in the Sukkot is so that 784 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,760 we remember that Hashem took us out of Egypt and protected us in 785 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,720 the desert. It's not in the Gemara and it's 786 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,800 not in the major Shalaka. It's not the Shukhana ruch, but 787 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:04,880 that is what many acronyms say is and similarly like that Ivan 788 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,520 Bin around them says the Haftam ET Taguer and Gerlotian also 789 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,840 applies to any stranger in our in our midst. 790 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,000 And that criticism of Rabbi Sacks is really a criticism of 791 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,280 these Rishonim and Achronim who follow this approach. 792 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,560 But let me tell you a further development that I learned I I 793 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,800 had time to put in a footnote in the book, but I I couldn't 794 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,720 expand on it. There's a recent book published 795 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:36,560 within the past year by a professor in Turo on the 796 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,400 universalism of Rabbi Sampson Rafael Hirsch. 797 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,680 And what he does is this professor, it's not really about 798 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,920 rehearsh. It's about rehearsh and the 799 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,160 people who came before him and the people his contemporaries. 800 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,200 And he makes the point that this interpretation, it's in the 801 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,160 book, this interpretation of Gare applying to any stranger 802 00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,080 was said by great acronym in Germany in the 19th century. 803 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,800 And Rabbi Sachs was really, and Rabbi Hirsch, Rabbi Sachs was 804 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:08,120 really following Rabbi Hirsch. And, and to me the, I mean to, 805 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:11,160 not to me, actually to many people, there are no greater 806 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,160 authorities that Rabbi Sax can be following than some of the 807 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,920 great German thinkers of the 19th century. 808 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,640 It's really very traditional idea, even if it, even if it 809 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:26,200 seems a little startling to us who were, were, were raised on 810 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,880 Mishnan Gemara and not a lot of these, let's say less famous 811 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,560 Farim. But that goes back to our old 812 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:33,520 point. You know, we came out of 813 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,160 yeshiva. We have to educate ourselves now 814 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,240 on all the other things in the world and. 815 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:43,680 And I'll tell you, Jahman de Luz, I mean this old Sepharad, 816 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:51,480 the the attention to shot is shot was not a throwaway. 817 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,560 It's not like you know you, you, you learned even Ezra, he makes 818 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,040 clear distinctions constantly throughout his commentary. 819 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,400 Shot and drash. Shot and Drash. 820 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,120 Now Halaha Midrash al has a different status all together as 821 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,240 well even as we talked about. But what I'm trying to say is, 822 00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:15,200 is that the Rishonim had a deep reverence for Shot, regardless 823 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:21,760 if Halaha has has its own takes its own detours and has its own 824 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,760 ways of development and, and and and exegesis and all of that, of 825 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,320 course. But we have lost today the 826 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,160 appreciation from shots, not just in in something like this, 827 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,320 but even in just reading homage. Like I feel like, I feel like 828 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,160 people today, it's just they read homage Midrashiki and we've 829 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,640 lost the art of to learn it. I'll be shot. 830 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:52,360 And you see, like Harit Sion, we always talk about it and we love 831 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,000 them so much because they're, they're trying to bring back the 832 00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:00,040 sensitivity towards reading the text of PSHA to really try to 833 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,480 let the text speak to you with, with its own words and not, you 834 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,360 know, not just exegesis and, and and and going beyond the text, 835 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,400 but to allow the text to really, you know, speak to you. 836 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,360 It it, it's off tangent from what you're saying, but I think 837 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,040 it kind of goes along because at the end day shot, I think in 838 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,680 general, in all manners is kind of something that needs to be 839 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,760 more appreciated in the Jewish world today. 840 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,640 I agree with you. Except on on two things. 841 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,840 First of all, I think we should also emphasize that Ibn Ezra has 842 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,800 amazing respect for the Hakamim. Oh yeah, I didn't mean he. 843 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaks about them in the highest. 844 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,600 Language and yeah, I I didn't. I never implied otherwise. 100% 845 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:52,200 yes and and. I don't know if he also went 846 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,280 along with Avram Ben Harambam's view that the chat he did not he 847 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,080 did not is obligatory, right? He did not. 848 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,360 I didn't. I specifically didn't link it to 849 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,000 Avram Ben Harambam for that reason, but that's why I said 850 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,080 it's off. Tangent from what you said, but 851 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,400 I think that overall when the Torah is saying love the 852 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,520 stranger, even if halacha might dictate certain boundaries to 853 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,640 that or whatnot. There is an idea. 854 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,360 Here to love the stranger. It might not be, you know, 855 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,920 halachically binding, maybe so if you go without Rambam and 856 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,880 other but but even if it's not electrically binding, we should 857 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,520 have the the text should have an effect on us that we should we 858 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,200 should want to take part in what it's saying. 859 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,000 Do you understand what I mean by? 860 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,640 That is, the text is. Trying to convey to us an 861 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,480 ethical sensitivity we should have. 862 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,880 What is wrong with you that you don't love the stranger? 863 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:45,920 Yes, yes. Exactly. 864 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,520 Halacha notwithstanding, there's you know it's not. 865 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,080 Do you know what I'm saying? I. 866 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,880 I do. And I want to take on a little 867 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,000 bit a brief tangent because you brought up your Shiva Tarzian 868 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,200 and I want to say that. I'm not I'm. 869 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,040 Not entirely on board with their program, I don't know, I think. 870 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,440 They're. Deviating from shots a little 871 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,080 too much, I'm more than a Kama Leibowitz. 872 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,640 Kind of depends who and what. There's a lot of people there. 873 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:12,480 It's a huge spectrum. Agreed. 874 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,000 Agreed, I'm more of an Kama Leibowitz who focus on what the 875 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,520 Rishoni more said and really drew amazing things out of them. 876 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,680 Some of the people in the Shivaat Harzian world have 877 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,720 created their own midrashim that they're calling shot the whole 878 00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:28,320 back story and they're they're taking liberty. 879 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:29,920 This and that. Which is really just. 880 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:31,720 That's how it. Works. 881 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,840 You're saying keyword and that keyword. 882 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,160 And you build a whole story. I I understand. 883 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,080 So to me, that's an upshot that's. 884 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,880 Madras is brilliant, is beautiful, but I'm more of of 885 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:47,440 meat and potatoes, you know? And keep it go back to the text. 886 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,760 Go back to the text. Fair enough, fair enough. 887 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,840 Yeah, the, the, the, but the, but the main point and that I 888 00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:01,440 most important to me is that we should be emotionally open to 889 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,640 being to being able to hear the words love your stranger and to 890 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,040 simply allow that to speak to you. 891 00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:11,760 I I think it's it's. It's. 892 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,880 It's a little bit crazy. To me that like the Torah can 893 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,480 say something and it it doesn't mean anything now because now we 894 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,840 have to look over there and see how it was halachically 895 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,640 instituted. Yes, there's halachic 896 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,480 boundaries, but, but, but the Torah is telling us something, 897 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,760 meaning we're closing our ears to what the Torah says. 898 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,040 And I don't, I don't, I don't intuitively, I think that that's 899 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:38,400 there's something really wrong there. 900 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,160 That's just my opinion. I'm the son of two. 901 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,360 Immigrants, one one said of my grandparents didn't speak 902 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,320 English. I I see other people. 903 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,600 Who are also immigrants and they're struggling, They don't 904 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,280 speak English, their parents don't speak English. 905 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,320 How do I not, you know, feel some sort of commonality and 906 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,840 some sort of empathy to what they're going through? 907 00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,720 They're just trying to support their family, give their kids a 908 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:03,640 better life. I understand exactly what you're 909 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,080 saying. And this is not a political 910 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,200 issue on what to do with immigration. 911 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,120 It's a personal, a human issue on how do you look at these 912 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,640 people who are going through the same things that my parents went 913 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,480 through it, my grandparents went through and all the way back to 914 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:21,120 you'd see at me trying. All of us should feel like we 915 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,480 went through or our families went through in some way. 916 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,080 And we see other people dealing with a lot of the same issues. 917 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,720 We should empathize, not sympathize, empathize. 918 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:32,920 We should understand on a pressing level the struggles 919 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,800 that they're going through. It's it's, it's literally 920 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,040 Pshitoshal Mikra and it it astounds me that people have 921 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,960 have challenges with it and I had to go to the Rishonim to 922 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,800 show it, But I, I, I did, I did the work for you. 923 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,400 So amazing. Thank you that. 924 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,400 Was an incredible chapter in Mikre, you'd say in Mikre you'd 925 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,400 say it's in the Gamara itself. The text doesn't doesn't leave 926 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,600 it doesn't doesn't the the text you the text the the simple 927 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,800 meaning of the text never gets displaced right and as I think. 928 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,760 It's the Ramban points out in the in the in the beginning of 929 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,880 Seifer Hami's vote, he says it's not in Mikre Ella Chuto. 930 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,960 It's not There's only shot. It's angry cry. 931 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:14,520 You'd say you'd send me dip Chateau. 932 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,400 There is also there is shot and there are other levels as well. 933 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:24,160 Fantastic, fantastic, beautiful. OK, so Benz. 934 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,920 Take the next question, all right. 935 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,080 Robert Meiselman OK, so in regards to Torah and science, 936 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,440 Robert Meiselman famously asserts that all classical 937 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,320 authorities, including Khazal and Mishonim, align with the 938 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,600 Maharaj, leaving no room for dissenting views. 939 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:47,800 What is your perspective on this? 940 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,640 Do you see our tradition allowing for diverse opinions on 941 00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,760 these matters, or is consensus essential? 942 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,360 So let let me. Tell you a a little. 943 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,040 Inside trivia that I. Haven't told anybody, I don't 944 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,280 think I've said it publicly. The book was originally supposed 945 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,200 to be titled Points of Contention and you can see that 946 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,160 with the Hebrew title is Safer and I was wondering. 947 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,480 That I was wondering wait like you know articles of fade and I 948 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,680 was trying to understand that OK, great. 949 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:19,800 OK, on. One level. 950 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:21,600 On one level, there are two levels to the book. 951 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,440 One level of the book is taking contentious issues that we've 952 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,000 debated over the past 20 years in the blogosphere and 953 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,520 stretching it out and giving my, my views on on those subjects. 954 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,360 That's one level. And that's where it's points of 955 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,520 contention. Another level of the book is 956 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,880 it's, and it's almost on every single page is the struggle 957 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:45,080 between autonomy and authority, between the individual and the 958 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,920 tradition. And how do we balance that? 959 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,360 And this goes back to the Internet and that it, it, it's a 960 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,080 democratizing tool. It's like the printing press. 961 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:59,040 It gives so much information and power to the individual, but how 962 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,200 do we balance that with tradition and with authority? 963 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,280 We believe in authority, We believe in the authority of the 964 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,120 Torah, we believe in the authority of Khazal and even our 965 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,160 rabanim today, but how do we balance that with our own 966 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,920 autonomy and and all the power and information that we now have 967 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:14,880 at our fingertips? How do we balance that? 968 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,440 I don't have any smooth answers, but this book is really just 969 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,880 grappling with that. Some some some chapters are more 970 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,240 explicit than others. Now, that said, let's. 971 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,720 Get to this specific chapter and this specific question with 972 00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:29,800 Rabbi Meiselman. This is amazing because this is 973 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,160 a story that really went from the blogs to the real world. 974 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,480 You know, we were debating this on the blogs. 975 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:41,280 And Rabbi Meiselman, who I, I only met once and I look up to 976 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,200 him as a brilliant, brilliant Tamid Khakam and a scholar on 977 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,280 and multiple levels and the nephew of of Soloveitchik. 978 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:50,760 He was very, very close with his uncle. 979 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,440 So Rabbi Mazzelman wrote a a masterful book, you know, with 980 00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:00,800 his incredible biquiute and his his intelligence and his wisdom 981 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,560 and his he has a he has a beautiful way of writing. 982 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,960 It's a great book on the subject of Torah and science. 983 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,480 I have it right here on my bookshelf. 984 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,000 You can't see where I'm pointing, but it's right there. 985 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:18,960 Tarah Kazan and science and which he argues that when Kazan 986 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:26,480 say a scientific fact without any qualifications of the we got 987 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,640 this from here, we got this from the scientist, we heard from the 988 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,480 doctor, they just say a scientific fact. 989 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:35,520 It is a tradition from Sinai. And he has a whole. 990 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,480 Massive book making that argument and that anyone who 991 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,760 doesn't agree with that is outside the tradition. 992 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,600 That's that's a nice way of putting it and so 1. 993 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,560 So why didn't I call my book points of contention? 994 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,600 My editor said, you're not contentious enough. 995 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,600 You know, I know people who who interact with me on social media 996 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,320 are like, he's contentious enough, trust me. 997 00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,160 But in the book, I try to, I try to be polite and I try to be 998 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,760 gentle and I try to make my point without ramming it down 999 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,440 anyone's throat. And that's generally the way I 1000 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,800 interact with people, you know, in the real world and so on. 1001 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,640 On this book in In this chapter I review Rabbi Meiselman's book 1002 00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:17,800 and I point out a lot of the strengths of the book, but I 1003 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,280 also point out that there's another stream of thoughts in 1004 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,280 Ghazal going back to the Rishonim, through to the 1005 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,880 acronym, through to the post of. Today, the post today and and 1006 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:31,240 and of course. Agonium, you're right, 1007 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:34,200 absolutely. This is very strong in agonium 1008 00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:37,880 that that's no that we accept science. 1009 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,960 Khazal accepted science from the they, they were cutting edge. 1010 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,320 The best science of their day. They took from the scientists 1011 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:44,480 because they were not scientists. 1012 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,520 So they asked, they talked to the scientists and today 1013 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,240 rehearsal Schecter says this all the time. 1014 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,920 If I he, he says if I have a medical issue, I need to to talk 1015 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,160 about in halacha, I talk to the doctors and that's what Khazal 1016 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,440 did. They talk to the doctors and we 1017 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,160 have it in Rishonim and, and, but there, there are two 1018 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,760 legitimate opinions throughout the Rishonim and throughout the 1019 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,720 acronym. And my only argument of the 1020 00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:08,720 Rabbi Mazuman is that don't say there there isn't. 1021 00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:11,680 And in fact, Rava Vaidyosev has a chuva on the subject. 1022 00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,760 He has it Rava Vaidyosev, the encyclopedia of our times. 1023 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:17,960 He was asked, I'm not going to mention his name. 1024 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,720 He was there was an accusation against a teacher in the 1025 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,160 Sephardic school in Brooklyn in Flatbush. 1026 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,400 He was called and you know an Epicaris and he must be fired 1027 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:30,880 because he said that Hazal were wrong in a scientific matter. 1028 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,600 And As for Avagiosef and he went through the whole thing has a 1029 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:38,560 published Chuva in which he says this is not outside of the 1030 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,280 tradition. It's not his view for Avagiosef 1031 00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,960 is more conservative, but he said it's not part of the 1032 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:45,800 tradition. Do not fire him. 1033 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,640 He's not an Epicarus for saying that. 1034 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:55,840 And not only that, in the the the Savor Minhat Aava Minhat 1035 00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:02,000 Aava Levy. I am he teaches by Revenir. 1036 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,840 Mazous and the Shiva Kise Rahamim, I believe so he teaches 1037 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:10,080 Al Akhader and he says in the book, he says I asked Revaid UAF 1038 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,080 about this, this matter which the the the tradition seems to 1039 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,240 contradict science and Revaid UAF says look to see what 1040 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,240 Revavering Binaram Bam said about science and which 1041 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,600 Revavering Binaram Bam says that Kazaal relied on the 1042 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,360 contemporary scientists, scientists and they could be 1043 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,360 wrong, they could be mistaken on scientific matters. 1044 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,720 And this is something that Rabbi sacks himself. 1045 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,280 I don't quote him in this book. I don't believe in this chapter 1046 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,120 on the subject, but he himself has a whole book on the subject 1047 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:38,800 about science and stories. A great partnership. 1048 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:40,240 Very good. OK, you'll. 1049 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,320 Have your bikini. It's not only that, but you. 1050 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,000 But but the Gemara, I think you brought in your chapter here, 1051 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,920 there's a Gemara that even I think he's a Nazi. 1052 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,720 If I'm not mistaken. He regarding certain the the the 1053 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,600 the position of the sun. I don't remember exactly. 1054 00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:57,560 Yeah. So the Gemara. 1055 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,320 Him. However, Rabinutam has a little 1056 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,000 has a different way of reading that Gemara. 1057 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:03,440 So there are different approaches. 1058 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,160 There are different approaches, and one of the things Rabbi 1059 00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,640 Meiselman says in his book is that there are no halachan 1060 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,560 scholars of today who follow that view. 1061 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,240 So, you know, we have to follow the khameem of every generation. 1062 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:20,520 So I point out, well, actually, no, look, I have right here, I 1063 00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,120 don't know if you could see Asayla Kharab by Rukaim David 1064 00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,800 Alavi, the the chief, the chief rabbi, chief rabbi of Tel Aviv 1065 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,320 in the 1980s, nineteen 90s. He has a true honest subject and 1066 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,960 he follows that Raviaco Variel of Hershel Schechter. 1067 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,720 There are plenty of postscheme today who follow that approach. 1068 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:39,200 It's legitimate in our community. 1069 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,800 And Rabbi Meiselman has a nephew of Rabbi Salavechik. 1070 00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,560 So he intimated. He didn't quite say, he 1071 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,120 intimated Ravi Salavechik would have considered someone who 1072 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,360 follows his view to be outside of the community. 1073 00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,680 So I asked some of our Solovitch's students. 1074 00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:55,120 Most of them did not want to go on the record. 1075 00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,600 They had very strong things to say on the subject. 1076 00:58:58,600 --> 00:58:59,680 They didn't want to go on the record. 1077 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,560 Rabbi Kafitz went on the record. And Rabbi Herschel Schechter, 1078 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:06,640 just in other essays and other speeches, has taught the view. 1079 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,000 And Rabbi Herschel Schachter is pretty much Rabbi Solovitch's 1080 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:14,120 primary student in halacha. He the the view that Khazal 1081 00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,320 could have made mistakes on matters of science because they 1082 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,160 relied on the scientists of their times, just like any rabbi 1083 00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,200 today who talks to a doctor or a scientist is relying on the 1084 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,800 medicine and science of our time, some of it which is 1085 00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:27,800 mistaken. We don't know what's mistaken, 1086 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,120 but I'm sure in 50 years they'll look back at our science and 1087 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,800 medicine and laugh at it. And but our could be more 1088 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,200 relying on that because that's the normal way, the proper way 1089 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,920 to to handle such such issues. And Kazal, we're just following 1090 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,520 Kazal when we do that. This need. 1091 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:52,320 That's born out of a lot of this need we have the, the, the 1092 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:59,520 Haredi world has to, you know, this uncomfortable, this 1093 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,600 uncomfortable notion that the Hakamim were human beings and 1094 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,840 that they were things that they could be wrong about. 1095 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,360 This view. That you know everything they 1096 01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:14,200 said, even their non allocate or non Torah statements. 1097 01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:15,920 You know everything has to be correct. 1098 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,360 Infallibility. Yeah, what? 1099 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:19,800 Infallibility. That's the word. 1100 01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:24,720 I feel like this is an unnecessary type of. 1101 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,760 It's done I. Feel I could be wrong, but I 1102 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,680 think it's done to protect people. 1103 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,320 I think that you know the the Haredi world feels threatened by 1104 01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,120 things like this because you allow one notion, it could lead 1105 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:45,040 to more notions and I get that. But at the end of the day, I 1106 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,400 think for me, when? When? 1107 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,520 I I took that. Notion when I was younger, the 1108 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,400 notion that, you know, everything Khazal says is, is 1109 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,800 absolutely correct. I, I, I used to go with that and 1110 01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:03,720 to some extent, but I found actually that when, when I, my 1111 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:08,840 mind was open and I was able to see the Hakamim in a more 1112 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:15,520 realistic manner, I, I felt not less reverence, but more 1113 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:19,680 reverence, at least for myself. Meaning I, I don't think that we 1114 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,560 need to like, you know, put this huge aura around them to, to 1115 01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,680 have reverence and, and there's an aura that they should have, 1116 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,960 that they were great people and they were the, the, the bearers 1117 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,480 of Mistura and we call them ha ha meme. 1118 01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,280 They were, they were, they were the wisest of our generation. 1119 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,720 I'm not taking away from any of that, but this infallibility 1120 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:44,000 aura that we have to put around them, I feel it's, it's 1121 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,840 unnecessary. I don't think that that people 1122 01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,120 are going to go off the Derrick or, you know, or come to some 1123 01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:55,280 crazy conclusions or, you know, leave Judaism by simply seeing 1124 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,600 things for what they are, you know, and what is that? 1125 01:01:58,040 --> 01:01:59,600 I mean you, you see that with the biblical. 1126 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:01,160 About. About. 1127 01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:07,360 The how strong the the torshaba is is if we have to create this 1128 01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,760 like infallibility or in order to preserve it, well you also 1129 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,400 see the same. Thing with with the biblical 1130 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,720 characters, you know, like people trying to turn them into 1131 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,160 sings. And like the, I mean did that 1132 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,080 amid your team. So I guess they put a little bit 1133 01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:20,600 more there, but right because we're trying to give. 1134 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,880 Them benefit of that because sometimes the the shot is like 1135 01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,840 shocking, but but at the same time like the Torah is clearly 1136 01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,040 want wanting us to see their humanness. 1137 01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:32,760 You know, and if we lose? That we're we're we're losing a 1138 01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,120 little the wisdom as well. So I'm. 1139 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:38,800 I'm not 100% with you on this, so I, I will, I will. 1140 01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,920 But then see, I, I would, I would allow for Kharedim. 1141 01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,080 Not all Kharedim, it's not a monolith, but Kharedim in 1142 01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:50,280 general to have beliefs, heartfelt beliefs. 1143 01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,840 They follow the shitta of let's say the Mahara, the Maharao who 1144 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,320 believed in this, who believed the Khazal were in phallon. 1145 01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:59,200 I'm fine with that. I I understand what you're 1146 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:00,880 saying. The Maharao gives a way to be 1147 01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,040 able to keep the aura and not, you know, not go into total, you 1148 01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:06,800 know, total falsehood of saying like, you know, it was Mistura 1149 01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,160 right And I'm. They were not referencing. 1150 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:11,000 Signs at all, they're referencing deeper things and 1151 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,840 I'm fine with yeah, right, so. I, I allow them to have their 1152 01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,680 deeply held convictions, even if my convictions are slightly 1153 01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:22,800 different, especially since my convictions are part of at least 1154 01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:26,840 50% of, of our Mistura, you know, and, and there's plenty of 1155 01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,960 room for both of us in the world. 1156 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,240 I, I, I, I think, I think that's fine, you know, and some people 1157 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,760 go too far, but you'll find that everywhere. 1158 01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,960 And part of the problem and part of the problem with the biblical 1159 01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,960 characters is that some people go too far and it, it gets 1160 01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,960 offensive, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll 1161 01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,080 specifically interpret things to make everybody look bad. 1162 01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,840 And it's it, it, it's in the community, if this exists today, 1163 01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:56,320 I've seen it over the past 25 years that I've been online. 1164 01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,920 And it's a little horrifying that someone who published a 1165 01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:06,800 book that I don't know, Yosef had was not neurologically, was 1166 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,000 neurologically different, you know? 1167 01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:10,880 And and and not. 'Cause for some to say anything 1168 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,400 bad about people who are on the spectrum or anything like that, 1169 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,520 but we're talking about Yosef Sadiq, who was the leader of of 1170 01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,240 the generation and one of the Shiva team. 1171 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,880 And you know I. I. 1172 01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,520 I don't I don't the Ramban himself criticizes the vote, 1173 01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:27,520 then the sieve criticizes the vote. 1174 01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,720 But how far are we going to go? You know, just use a little 1175 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,760 sail. Just be a little respectful and 1176 01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,440 keep things within, you know, the the parameters. 1177 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,840 You see what your teachers did. You see what your mentors and 1178 01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,520 what their teachers did and just follow that same path. 1179 01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,080 I don't need know that we need to break down new walls and 1180 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,560 create new paths. Although I was sort. 1181 01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:49,360 Of saying exactly what you're saying though. 1182 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,640 What I'm saying is we don't have to go crazy with the 1183 01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,480 infallibility aura if we just keep. 1184 01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,520 It at you know. AII didn't mean that like, Oh 1185 01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,360 yeah, you can, you know, say Yosem was on the spectrum or, 1186 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,640 you know, the hakamim were just like, you know, randomly 1187 01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,480 spitting out like weird. I God forbid. 1188 01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,360 No, I'm, I'm, I'm saying my whole point I was trying to tell 1189 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:19,160 you was is that being when I, how do I explain this to you in 1190 01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:20,800 a way that will come across correctly? 1191 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:22,400 What I'm trying to say is is that. 1192 01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,600 I think that when. Done right when done, if you 1193 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,800 take it and you just want to make it all about like, you 1194 01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,080 know, oh, you know, the Khameem, they're just just saying, you 1195 01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,640 know, whatever. And you know, OK, no, obviously 1196 01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:37,280 we're not. I'm not going there. 1197 01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,200 But what I'm saying is is that you don't need to hang on to 1198 01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,560 infallibility to hold on to reverence. 1199 01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,680 You can have in a sense, even a deeper reverence, understanding 1200 01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:51,560 that they were human beings and you know, possibly they could 1201 01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:55,160 have made a mistake regarding, you know, a scientific issue. 1202 01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:59,080 These these are not supposed to they're not supposed to shatter 1203 01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:01,320 your muna. That's that's it shouldn't lead 1204 01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:03,520 to that. There's no, there's no reason 1205 01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,520 for that. We're making it that it should 1206 01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,920 be like that, meaning we're, we're causing it that if a 1207 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:14,840 person now doubts that you know this, you know, scientific 1208 01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:19,240 opinion in the Gemara. If if we go with that, that if a 1209 01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:22,040 person doubts his scientific statement in the Gemara, his 1210 01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:25,240 entire Judaism is shattered, right? 1211 01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:26,760 He's putting all of his. Eggs in one basket. 1212 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:27,960 He's putting all the eggs in one basket. 1213 01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:29,720 But for what? It's unnecessary. 1214 01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,120 You want to go with the meaning if you want to go with the moral 1215 01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,560 and if you're happy with the moral, and if you, if you're a 1216 01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,520 believer in the moral's understanding, great. 1217 01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:40,440 I would not say a word. I have no problem with that. 1218 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:46,400 In fact, we Heim Eisen, we want to bring them on to have a whole 1219 01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,280 episode explaining the Derek Amaral. 1220 01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:50,600 Of course, no, that's not my point. 1221 01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:52,440 I'm not saying don't go with Maharal. 1222 01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:57,320 I'm saying you don't need to. You don't even need the Maharal 1223 01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:01,640 in order for, you know, your entire Jewish edifice to break 1224 01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:02,880 down. You don't need that. 1225 01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:08,280 You can very much go with Ahmed and Aram and say this is science 1226 01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,000 and they won with the best science of their times. 1227 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,320 In fact, based on certain things that I read, it seems like their 1228 01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,640 science was extremely advanced for their time, even if it was 1229 01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,240 wrong, which means that they were they were pioneers in that 1230 01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,560 area. There's there's respect to be 1231 01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:27,080 had even in their mistake over there with, with science, if we 1232 01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:31,280 grant that right, but this doesn't have to it doesn't it 1233 01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,320 shouldn't have come to a point where you need, you need the 1234 01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:36,600 morale or else your Judaism is going to fall apart. 1235 01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:38,920 That's what I'm trying to say. I I, I I. 1236 01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:41,920 I think we're on this. We, we, we're on the same page 1237 01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,120 on that, but we're on a different page and something 1238 01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:46,160 else, which I'm sure you'll say we're on the same page, but let 1239 01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:50,240 me say it anyway, that it isn't necessarily from a defensive 1240 01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,560 posture. It's from a deeply held 1241 01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:57,040 conviction that this is the truth and it's not defensive. 1242 01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:01,000 Some do. And I, but I believe personally, 1243 01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:06,440 I, I think that as a, as a dictum or like as a, what do you 1244 01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:10,560 call it as a motto in the Haredi world? 1245 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,040 I do think that's defensive because they don't really give 1246 01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,320 you an option otherwise. It's one thing to have 1247 01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,439 conviction. It's another to say that if 1248 01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,840 someone like Rabbi Meiselman's book, that's coming from 1249 01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:22,560 defensive, that's what I'm trying to say. 1250 01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:23,960 Do you see what I'm trying to say? 1251 01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:26,040 Meaning otherwise you wouldn't have to go through all that 1252 01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:28,160 length. You're if, but if. 1253 01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,120 They held that this is the truth, everything else is false. 1254 01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,840 So why would they give another option a false option? 1255 01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:36,920 Because it's part of our. Tradition, like you said, all 1256 01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,680 the Roshonim are OK with it. That's now. 1257 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:41,880 How do we now compensate? It's not OK. 1258 01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:46,200 There's a problem there. That to me that translates as 1259 01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,160 being defensive because if you weren't being if it was about 1260 01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,680 conviction, then champion an opinion. 1261 01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,560 But when you make it the only opinion allowed to be spoken of, 1262 01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:58,760 now you're being defensive. Am I wrong? 1263 01:08:59,359 --> 01:09:01,040 I, I I. Think you have you have a very 1264 01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:03,760 strong point. We should not, I'm agree, I'm 1265 01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:05,640 with you. We should not censor Rishonim, 1266 01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:10,319 no matter how outrageous we might think that their 1267 01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:13,479 statements are, which I think in this room, this, we wouldn't, we 1268 01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,760 wouldn't go that far, but other people would think their 1269 01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,000 statements are outrageous. It should still be available. 1270 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,520 We don't censor Rishonim, We don't censor the Hakamim. 1271 01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:24,840 So let me just move on to one other thing. 1272 01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:26,880 And and I didn't mean to be argumentative. 1273 01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:28,560 By the way, I was just being passionate about it with you, 1274 01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:30,319 that's all. No, I'm the one being. 1275 01:09:30,319 --> 01:09:35,880 Argumentative part of the development though. 1276 01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:44,560 Part of the development. Of reverence for Hakamim is that 1277 01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,800 I had the the honor the the privilege of seeing some really 1278 01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:52,680 great hakamim at towards the end of their their careers, say Riv 1279 01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,680 Aaron Soloveitchik I I never saw Riv Yosef Dov Soloveitchik. 1280 01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:58,080 I was too young for that, but his younger brother, Riv Aaron 1281 01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,040 Soloveitchik, I used to watch him and his devotion, his misty 1282 01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,840 rat nefesh is conviction and that the man was the most 1283 01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:08,040 stubborn man I've ever seen. His conviction for every little 1284 01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:11,000 thing of his Hushka, his hushkafah, which I love his 1285 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,800 Hushkafah and and but he was incredibly devoted. 1286 01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,520 And I saw David Lipschitz, who also was saintly and his 1287 01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:21,480 devotion to the Torah and to his Ptolemy Dem. 1288 01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:26,600 When you see that that helps you, it gives you a muna and the 1289 01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:30,120 hakamim of every generation. And that's important. 1290 01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:33,840 For our kids to be exposed to great people like that, There 1291 01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,920 are some rabbis who are contentious and who are yelling 1292 01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:41,120 and who are maybe even offensive to, depending on your nature. 1293 01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,080 But there are some who different strokes for different folks. 1294 01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:46,920 Different people are attracted to different types of 1295 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:49,880 personalities, and it's important to connect yourself to 1296 01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:53,080 the previous generations and the saintliness that we see. 1297 01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:54,440 And it doesn't have to be a famous rabbi. 1298 01:10:54,440 --> 01:10:57,160 There are, I remember this has been an accounting professor in 1299 01:10:57,160 --> 01:10:58,960 my neighborhood. It was Mamish, one of the Lamid 1300 01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,640 Vav Sadikim. It was incredible. 1301 01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:02,880 First, I wish my kids could have. 1302 01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:04,240 I wish you could have lived long enough. 1303 01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,080 My kids could have seen how he was such a Sadiq, you know, and 1304 01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:12,240 it's important for us to see Tamika, our kids to see Tamika 1305 01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:13,600 Khamim. And with that, they can 1306 01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:17,240 understand the reverence to the Ramban was even greater. 1307 01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:21,080 The Rambam was even greater, but you have a frame of reference 1308 01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,960 to, to, to and look, nobody's perfect, nobody's right. 1309 01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:27,160 I don't think it was right on everything. 1310 01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:29,200 I don't think Ravaggio safe was right on everything. 1311 01:11:29,440 --> 01:11:32,640 But these are great people who help us connect to the great 1312 01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,920 people of our tradition. And it's very important to 1313 01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:37,960 develop that appreciation and, and cynicism. 1314 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,080 Cynicism destroys that I I totally. 1315 01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,360 I want to support what you're saying. 1316 01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,200 I remember I read this with my father actually during COVID. 1317 01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,040 We used to take walks during COVID, 6 feet apart, of course, 1318 01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:55,800 but we used to take walks and we used to read hearts Young 1319 01:11:55,800 --> 01:12:01,320 brought out a book on Tanakh, different attitudes into how to 1320 01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:03,760 learn Tanakh. One of that says there was by 1321 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,960 Robbie Lichtenstein and he deals with the question and this is a 1322 01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:11,440 sensitive one for for a person like me or maybe a person like 1323 01:12:11,440 --> 01:12:14,920 Benji of should you teach your kids Rashi? 1324 01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,160 Now, the reason he's asked the question is being posed is 1325 01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:24,520 because midrashim, at least according to the Ghonim and the, 1326 01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:28,600 you know, are not meant to be historical literal, right? 1327 01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:32,560 They're, they're supposed to be. They, they, they, they're. 1328 01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,440 Didactic. More than that, I wouldn't say 1329 01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:38,840 didactic. Strictly, it is opening up the 1330 01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:41,800 text, but in a a way unlike what doesn't matter. 1331 01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:50,040 So should you allow your kids to learn Rashi or not? 1332 01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:53,600 Because if they learn Rashi as a kid will learn Rashi, he's going 1333 01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,080 to learn it as you know, and he's going to get this enchanted 1334 01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,400 world around him. And, you know, and, and it's 1335 01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:02,640 hard to deprogram that and get them into a more mature 1336 01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:05,280 understanding of Judaism. That's, that's the, that was the 1337 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,520 background. So yes or no? 1338 01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:15,120 Lichtenstein says absolutely you should because a child needs 1339 01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:17,840 that you need to build his core to some extent. 1340 01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:20,360 That was his opinion. I'm not saying he was even 1341 01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:22,560 correct or not incorrect. And I know some people will say 1342 01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:24,680 no, absolutely not. Some people say yes. 1343 01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:27,080 I'm just telling you what Liechtenstein said to support 1344 01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:30,280 what you're saying, that regardless that the child is is 1345 01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:33,920 going to is not going to understand the midrashim the way 1346 01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:35,400 maybe they're meant to be understood. 1347 01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,440 And there's going to be some deprogramming for some 1348 01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:43,440 falsehoods in terms of certain ideas And and you know that that 1349 01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:45,880 that naturally come about learning Samrashis. 1350 01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:49,800 He says we need to give the children that reverence. 1351 01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:52,040 Those were the words in the essay. 1352 01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:53,840 We need to give them that reverence. 1353 01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:59,080 And then when they get older, we can deprogram that and and bring 1354 01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:01,520 them into a healthy spot. But they're going to be strong 1355 01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:03,960 because of that earlier reverence that they gained from 1356 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,720 learning Komoshrashi. I think that's kind of going to 1357 01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:09,920 what you're saying, right? That there's a, there's a, 1358 01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:15,760 there's a need we need to have, we shouldn't be, you know, it 1359 01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,960 shouldn't be negative. We should have a positive core 1360 01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,920 in the way of our understanding of of our stages and of, you 1361 01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:27,520 know, the, the, the, the, the, you know, Jewish history and 1362 01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,840 then all the different. I mean 100% personally, I agree 1363 01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:33,600 with you. I know that some don't. 1364 01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,320 And I think that there's no right or wrong here. 1365 01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,280 I think that there's just, you know, everyone has their own 1366 01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:42,760 opinions about the matter. But I that Rob Lichtenstein came 1367 01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:45,600 into my head when you said what you said, and also as a point 1368 01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:47,120 of. Contention just to bring that 1369 01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:50,960 back you know, you you you finish your your point by saying 1370 01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,440 or have a student you said that nobody's perfect. 1371 01:14:53,440 --> 01:14:56,680 That's an important lesson and that should apply to what 1372 01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,480 Benzie's saying as well. Like that's the whole point you 1373 01:14:59,480 --> 01:15:01,280 know we're we're we're trying to make the point that nobody's 1374 01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:05,800 perfect and creating kind of a a world where you know there's 1375 01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:08,880 infallibility. Obviously that goes against the 1376 01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,320 point of that we're trying to make, which is nobody's perfect. 1377 01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:14,520 And I think we can learn a lot from the fact that even our 1378 01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:18,440 greatest teachers, our greatest sages are, are all, all of our, 1379 01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:20,360 our ancestors. They they were human beings 1380 01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,560 after all. And you you gain. 1381 01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:28,560 That sense, the more you learn, the more you see Ramban saying 1382 01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:31,320 Ibn Ezra's wrong. You know, he might have said it 1383 01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:33,480 respectfully sometimes, sometimes not so respectful. 1384 01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,880 We try to. We we try. 1385 01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:37,640 To remain respected. And you see that in the Chuva 1386 01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:40,440 literature, you know, the Schwarziako was saying about the 1387 01:15:40,440 --> 01:15:42,960 Hakam SVI or whatever. You know, it's there's a back 1388 01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:44,280 and forth. There's a you're wrong. 1389 01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:47,680 No, you're wrong. Now, part of our, our, our, our 1390 01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:50,960 Derek Ha Limud is trying to understand each opinion. 1391 01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:53,000 You know, why? Why did they come to that reach 1392 01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:55,880 that conclusion? But sometimes you're going to 1393 01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:57,560 reach a conclusion that yeah, you know what I mean? 1394 01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:00,240 He probably was wrong. He probably was probably wrong 1395 01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:02,000 on that. He's he was a great, great, 1396 01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:05,640 pious man, Brilliant. I could only hope to someday 1397 01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:09,320 reach his toes. But at some point, you know, I 1398 01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:10,680 got to say, you know, maybe he was wrong. 1399 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:13,280 And and they say that about each other. 1400 01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:18,800 This was a really fun segment. And before we go, there's like a 1401 01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:19,640 therapy. Section. 1402 01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:21,640 Yeah, totally. We. 1403 01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:22,560 We. We actually. 1404 01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:24,280 We, we. We. 1405 01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:27,600 Have to go soon, but before we go, we wanted you to kind of 1406 01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,600 tease on one foot just because we felt like this is such an 1407 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,760 important chapter and this is actually a chapter that we feel 1408 01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:38,560 should deserve its own episode, which is critiquing Mark 1409 01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:42,840 Shapiro's Rabbi Mark Shapiro's approach to masura in depth. 1410 01:16:43,480 --> 01:16:46,960 Can you just kind of give us a little, you know, teaser about 1411 01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:48,800 that chapter? Sure. 1412 01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,680 So. So the elicitors, I'm sure 1413 01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:53,200 familiar with Mark Shapiro's work. 1414 01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:57,560 It was groundbreaking in the really starting in the 1990s and 1415 01:16:57,560 --> 01:16:59,600 then when he when he wrote his article and then when he 1416 01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,920 published his book, trying to show that there was never a 1417 01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:06,880 consensus on that. You'd Gimel E Karim the Rambam's 1418 01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:10,000 13 Fundamental Principles of Judaism and that there has 1419 01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:13,840 always been and continues to be today differing opinions and 1420 01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:18,440 therefore the Ugimmel E Karim are not definitive of what 1421 01:17:18,440 --> 01:17:20,600 Judaism says the implications are. 1422 01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,080 He doesn't follow this, go through those implications. 1423 01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:27,800 The implications are that we can't breach those Ugimmel E 1424 01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:32,240 Karim and still remain within traditional Judaism like you 1425 01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:34,280 say, the word Orthodox. I don't know how how how 1426 01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:37,920 meaningful that word is, but whatever it is, the community of 1427 01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:42,120 Mamimi Mamimi Benimi Maminim, even if you don't believe in 1428 01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:45,160 every one of the you'd Gimli Kareem completely. 1429 01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:49,080 And that's shattering. Mind opening. 1430 01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:50,440 I'm sure. I don't know about you guys. 1431 01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:52,800 When I read that I was like, wow, it was it. 1432 01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,280 Was mind blowing. It took me a day. 1433 01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:59,680 It was heavy stuff. And I make the argument that 1434 01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,360 first of all, some of his examples, this is just a side 1435 01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:04,560 argument. Some of his examples are 1436 01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:06,760 overblown. And you know, in academia, they 1437 01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:14,680 tend to to to exaggerate deviations and differences when 1438 01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:17,040 really they could be they're, they're not. 1439 01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:20,400 So they don't deviate from the Gimli Karim even though there 1440 01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,800 are academics who claim that they are side point, but more 1441 01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,040 importantly. Everyone agrees and. 1442 01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:31,360 Including Mark Shapiro agrees. There has to be some definition 1443 01:18:31,440 --> 01:18:36,280 of what constitutes Judaism, Jewish belief, whatever you want 1444 01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:38,120 that to be, there has to be something. 1445 01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:41,320 And so how do you draw that? And who gets to draw that? 1446 01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:45,000 And what happens if different people draw the definitions 1447 01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,080 differently? How do you handle that? 1448 01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:51,760 I believe this is a question in which the tools of halacha can 1449 01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:56,520 be very helpful and useful. And I tried to create a vision 1450 01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:00,920 of how can I, someone who has read the, the kid my, my life 1451 01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:03,560 was before reading Mark Shapiro and after reading Mark Shapiro, 1452 01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:06,240 right? So now that I, I went through 1453 01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:08,280 the matrix, I took whatever pill, the red pill, blue pill, I 1454 01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:10,120 forget which pill I took the pill. 1455 01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:13,640 And I've, I'm aware that there are some Richonim who said this 1456 01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:16,040 and that and there's some of ronim who said this and that. 1457 01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:21,440 How do I understand what constitutes Jewish belief? 1458 01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:25,680 And I, I, I think I put together a coherent approach. 1459 01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:30,440 I've gotten some feedback and I found other greater rabbis and I 1460 01:19:30,440 --> 01:19:33,120 who say similar things like Raviakov, Ariel and and Ramat 1461 01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:36,360 Ghan. So I, I, I think you said a 1462 01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:37,880 teaser. So I'm not going to give you the 1463 01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:41,880 whole approach, but I think we have a, a coherent approach on 1464 01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:46,720 how to post Mark Shapiro, understand Judaism or what it 1465 01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:50,480 means to have Jewish belief. And you know. 1466 01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:53,160 We also, one of our earlier episodes that we, I think it was 1467 01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:56,960 episode 8 or 9, we interviewed Rabbi Shmuel Phillips, who also 1468 01:19:56,960 --> 01:19:59,200 took, you know, in his book Judaism Reclaim. 1469 01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:02,600 He, he took issue with, you know, maybe the scholarship, 1470 01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:05,000 maybe some certain what he thought was maybe sloppy 1471 01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,320 scholarship. So we actually went into that. 1472 01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:11,600 We also had Marc Shapiro on the podcast as well, but we didn't 1473 01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:15,080 get it to talk with that topic. But we really feel that like 1474 01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:19,000 this deserves a lot of attention and we feel that your book 1475 01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,240 really covers it well, and we want everybody to get the book. 1476 01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:25,720 So before we go, can you tell everybody where they can find 1477 01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:28,600 your book? Sure, again, the book is. 1478 01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:32,000 Is titled Articles of Faith, Traditional Jewish belief in the 1479 01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:35,680 Internet era. Please go into your local Jewish 1480 01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,800 bookstore and ask for it that way they'll order it, put a few 1481 01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:40,480 copies on the shelf and other people will buy it. 1482 01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:43,120 So you, you're doing it for me, you're doing it for my 1483 01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:45,120 publisher, and you're doing it for anyone who might buy the 1484 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,920 book and would benefit from it. If you go to the local 1485 01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:50,120 bookstore. If not, you can go to Amazon or 1486 01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:52,880 you can go to the publisher kodishpress.com and buy it 1487 01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:56,200 there. Hopefully, I hope readers will 1488 01:20:56,240 --> 01:21:00,080 gain from it and I look forward to, I don't consider myself the 1489 01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:03,480 last word on anything, but, you know, it's a conversation that 1490 01:21:03,480 --> 01:21:06,560 has been going on for 20 years and we'll we'll continue having 1491 01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:09,560 this conversation in the future we want to thank. 1492 01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:12,000 You because really you're you're I really enjoyed this I. 1493 01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:16,080 Really, really did and keep up the good work. 1494 01:21:16,480 --> 01:21:18,760 Keep doing what you're doing. This is amazing so. 1495 01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:21,520 We, we really appreciate it. And again we tell, we want to 1496 01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:24,040 tell everybody, please get the book Articles of Faith. 1497 01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:28,880 Thank you again, Rabbi Student, for coming on the podcast Benji 1498 01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:30,120 Benzi. Thank you so much. 1499 01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:31,520 It's been a great, great experience. 1500 01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:32,280 Absolutely. We. 1501 01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:33,880 Appreciate it. Thank you so much. 1502 01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:35,800 Keep in touch, God willing.