1 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,200 Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed. 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,160 We are joined once again by Professor Jeffrey Rubenstein. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,000 This is the third episode in a row featuring Professor 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,280 Rubenstein because we are doing a series on Alicia Benabuya. 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,600 This is the third and final installment, so we highly 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,720 recommend you guys going back and listening to the previous 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,520 two episodes if you haven't already. 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,000 We've gotten tremendous feedback and we are really, really 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,200 enjoying this. So without further ado. 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:45,200 Professor Rubenstein, thank you for joining the Judaism 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,960 Demystified podcast. Doctor Rubenstein, we really 12 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,680 appreciate you making the time during all these hours on on 13 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,960 this subject. And before we finish this third 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,400 and final installment about Alicia Benabuya, we wanted to 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,160 ask you about yourself because people are listening for hours 16 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,120 already and I'm sure they want to know about you a little bit. 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,600 Like, how did you get into this? What What attracted you to 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,760 stories of of the Agada and so on? 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,120 Yeah, that's a good question. And 1st, thank you for having 20 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,040 me, and thank you for the series and popularizing Torah in 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,080 general in this way and my work. And it's a it's a pleasure to be 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,960 here. I I actually got into comedic 23 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:38,240 stories, romantic stories totally by accident, purely 24 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,600 serendipitously. I I started out my my graduate 25 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,640 work. My PhD work was with Professor 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:52,320 David Weiselitny Zikranali Raha. He died recently and he was a 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:57,960 great Talmudist. He was one of the world's 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,600 greatest living Talmudist at that time, but he was very 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:06,040 interested in traditional Talmud analysis of Sugiyo development 30 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,800 of Jewish law. I studied with him, but I 31 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,600 actually wrote my PhD my dissertation on more of a 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,120 historical topic because I was interested in more sort of 33 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,720 broader issues than just something kind of within the 34 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,960 Talmud. So I wrote it on the history of 35 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,400 Sukkot in the period of the Mishnah and the Talmud, which 36 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,600 incorporated a great deal of Mishnah and Talmud, but also a 37 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,080 kind of historical focus and many other sources. 38 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,880 So that's what I was working on. And then I was also working on 39 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,960 some just purely Talmudic issues with the development of what we 40 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:45,040 would call legal science. That is the move toward 41 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,800 abstraction that you find in Talmudic law, which itself is 42 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,840 its own kind of very complicated area. 43 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,080 So I was, I was doing all that. But one source that I was 44 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,900 analyzing in my study of Sukkot was a very interesting long not 45 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:06,840 a da, really a story at the beginning of Tractate Avada Zara 46 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,360 of the Babylonian Talmud, which which has to do with really what 47 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,880 happens when the next World happens. 48 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,520 And Akadish borahu, it starts out, God comes and takes a safer 49 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,680 Torah. And he says everybody who was 50 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,240 busy with safer Torah, with Torah come and receive their 51 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,680 award and the Romans come and the Persians come. 52 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,040 Everybody wants to claim it. Anyway, it's a long, very, very 53 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,720 interesting story. But at the end, God gives the 54 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,360 Romans, the Gentiles, really a test of a mitzvah to see if they 55 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,360 can observe the mitzvah now. And that mitzvah is the sukkah. 56 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,880 They're supposed to observe the mitzvah of sukkah. 57 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,800 So this was relevant to my dissertation. 58 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,720 I just tried to figure out why the sukkah. 59 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,280 Why this one? Why not another one? 60 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,520 How does that tell us about the history of Sukkot? 61 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,960 But meanwhile, I'm working on this text from Avidasarak, and 62 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,560 it's a beautifully constructed story, and I started noticing 63 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,200 some of these literary aspects of it. 64 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,320 And I didn't really know what to do with this because the kind of 65 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,360 literary story study of rabbinic narratives of rabbinic stories 66 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,120 was kind of under its infancy. But it was done by one 67 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,920 professor, a great professor at Hebrew University, Yonah 68 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,600 Frankel, who had started applying literary analysis to 69 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,560 stories in a pretty sophisticated way. 70 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,840 So I started reading a lot of Frankel. 71 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,240 I was reading also Jacob Noosner, a scholar, and also 72 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,160 decided stories were not historical. 73 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,720 They were what we would call fiction or literature. 74 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:43,920 And at this point I decided this was going to be my next project 75 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,160 once I was done with Sukkot. If you've ever written a 76 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,600 dissertation, you know a lot of people who who write 77 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,200 dissertations after they're done with it or done with them 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,120 publishing the book and maybe some articles, they never want 79 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,800 to see that subject again. They're totally sick of it. 80 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,640 They've had enough. I've had enough. 81 00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:03,800 So I needed another thing to research it. 82 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,840 I I sort of gravitated these stories. 83 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,760 And what was very interesting is that I thought no one had really 84 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:14,200 analyzed these stories with the source critical methodology that 85 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,760 my teacher, David Weiselitny had developed. 86 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,920 That method, your critical Talmud method, had been applied 87 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,000 mainly to legal passages, not so much to narratives, to stories. 88 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:32,160 And so my idea was to combine this kind of literary analysis 89 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,200 that Jonah Frankel was doing with this kind of source, 90 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:40,520 critical or critical Talmud analysis that my teacher David 91 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,240 Weisselifny was doing and see what would happen. 92 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,520 And it seemed to pay off some good differences, you know, as I 93 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,520 think I was able to show kind of a lot of how the stories work in 94 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,440 the Bobly, where they come from, how the Bobly revised earlier 95 00:05:55,440 --> 00:06:00,200 sources, as they do with legal passages and yet how the stories 96 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,640 are sophisticated, legal, sophisticated literary products, 97 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:12,600 literary creations with a theme and an and an art in and of 98 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,800 themselves. So that was how it all happened, 99 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,320 just totally by kind of chance. Fascinating. 100 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:23,240 I I just want to make a point. A lot of people sadly and 101 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,520 misunderstanding with with with with a misunderstanding as to 102 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:35,200 what analyzing agadot via the the literary unit as a a 103 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,680 literary unit versus a historical reality. 104 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,320 The tendencies to think that that lowers the reverence that 105 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,960 one would have towards these agadot where in fact I look at 106 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,600 it as completely the opposite. You gain reverence when you see 107 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,600 the incredible detail and purpose, purposefulness in every 108 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:01,120 word and every choice that they make and how they develop these 109 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,360 stories. It it brings you to understand 110 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,880 that they had grand ideas in mind that they were trying to 111 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,640 communicate via this method. Yeah, you're you're 100% right. 112 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,960 And you know, the the notion that these are kind of meant to 113 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,800 be historical and just tell you about the lives and deeds of the 114 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,240 sages actually takes away from them, 'cause that wasn't what 115 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:23,640 the authors intended. They weren't. 116 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,600 They weren't interested so much in what Ravi Kiba did on this 117 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:27,760 day. You're on Shabbat here. 118 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,720 They were interested in communicating messages forever, 119 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,440 you know, larger messages that would be eternally relevant. 120 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,800 And they did that by telling stories of the struggles of the 121 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,560 sages. But we were supposed to learn 122 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,040 from them, not just, you know, what happened, but what the 123 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,760 literary unit is trying to tell us. 124 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:54,560 And let's let's move on to the next phase in our story of 125 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,280 Alicia Benavuya. So just for the listeners, we 126 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,960 recorded these three episodes. Like each one is separated by a 127 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:07,600 few months, so we we're not even remembering exactly what we 128 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,560 spoke about the first time, but I believe we touched. 129 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,040 On. I believe we did touch on some 130 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:19,280 of the we. Did the Yurasani vantage point 131 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:20,880 of this? Story, right. 132 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,440 But I think some of some of what you're about to present is also 133 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,040 going to be what I think it was probably touched on in the 134 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,480 first. So first we did the Tosepa, 135 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,000 which remembers that companion volume to the Mishnah where 136 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:39,919 really the whole story of Alicia originates, and we had a whole 137 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:42,880 unit on that. And then we did the Yerushami. 138 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,000 So as we saw in the first unit or the first of these series, 139 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,520 I'll very briefly refer to that. But the bodily story, what is 140 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,840 the beginning of the bodily story that we're going to look 141 00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:00,440 at right now is really a interpretation of this Tosefta 142 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,400 parrot passage that is very, very cryptic. 143 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,680 So the Tosefta passage talks about four sages who went to the 144 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:13,480 Pardes, some sort of mystical endeavor or speculation, and 145 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,240 different things happen to all of them. 146 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,200 But you know, right at the top you could see the Tosefta says 147 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,600 Akher gazed and cut the chutes. Or Alicia gazed and cut the 148 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,080 chutes. What that means again we talked 149 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,360 about in that episode about him Scripture says let not in your 150 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,400 mouth lead you into sin. And do not say before the Angel 151 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,760 or messenger the malach that it was an error, else God may be 152 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,520 angered by your talk and destroy the work of your hands. 153 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,760 That's all that the SEPTA says. And this is very, very difficult 154 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,920 to understand. And it was clear by the time of 155 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,440 the Talmuds, both the Ursami and the Babli, they no longer 156 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,280 understood what this was talking about and they did their best to 157 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,960 interpret it through a story. So the first two sections of 158 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,440 what's going to become a long story in the Bhavli is an 159 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,480 interpretation of this Tosefta. So just to run through this 160 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,080 briefly, because again, you should refer to that episode 161 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,280 where we did this in detail. The Bhavli story starts in this 162 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,200 section. One, what did he see? 163 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:17,080 What did Akher see? He saw Metatron, to whom was 164 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,720 given permission one hour each day to sit and write the merits 165 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,920 of Israel. So he somehow had a heavenly 166 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,040 vision or he went up to heaven. He saw this Angel Metatron 167 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,400 writing the merits of Israel. He said it is taught on high. 168 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,400 There is no standing and no sitting and no jealousy and no 169 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,560 rivalry and no back and no weariness. 170 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,000 So he had a tradition about what's going on in heaven, but 171 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:46,440 it says there's no sitting. And here Metatron apparently was 172 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,920 sitting because he says, perhaps heaven forbid, there are two 173 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,280 divine powers, right? Metatron had permission to sit 174 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:01,360 and write the merits of Israel, of Israel, but he has a 175 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,000 tradition that there's no sitting, no one else except God 176 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,480 could sit. So maybe Metatron is a God. 177 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,640 He says perhaps they're two divine powers. 178 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,480 So that's his sin. It was kind of kind of dualism, 179 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,360 or we would call it heresy. Immediately they brought on 180 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,120 Metatron and struck him with 60 lashes of fire. 181 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,760 So they punished Metatron to show Alicia he wasn't a God. 182 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,120 They said to him, to Metatron, when you saw him, why did you 183 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,320 not rise before him? That occurs in some manuscripts 184 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,640 in the printed version, not all texts, but OK, They said to 185 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,320 Metatron you were kind of at fault. 186 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,760 Now he was given permission to burn the merits of Ahir. 187 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,360 So since Ahir caused Metatron to be punished as proof he wasn't a 188 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,640 God, Metatron was given permission to burn out Akher's 189 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,120 merits. Nidaka, naked midak measure for 190 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,720 measure. A heavenly voice went out and 191 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,360 said to him, return rebellious children except Akher. 192 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,760 So this whole scenario you could see is very strange. 193 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,520 But here the Rabbis are trying to understand what the Tecefta 194 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,200 means. So how did Alicia's mouth let 195 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,760 him lead him into sin? Because he said, oh maybe 196 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,200 there's no perhaps they're two divine powers. 197 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:27,080 His mouth said a sin. And don't say before the malach 198 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,040 it was an error. Who is the malach? 199 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,680 The malach is metatron And destroying the work of your 200 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:37,360 hands. Another meaning of work of your 201 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,240 hands is your merits, your scooyote. 202 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,760 It's the good deeds you do. So the work of Alicia's merits 203 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,080 were were destroyed. OK, we're going to see the 204 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,440 interpretation flows into the next section, but you can 205 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,200 already see this very convoluted and bizarre scenario. 206 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,080 It's just an attempt to make sense of the Tosefta, yeah. 207 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:03,240 Question for the viewers What's the time gap between the Tosefta 208 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,120 and the bubbly? Well, the Testa is a little 209 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,480 later than the Mishnah. So you know, the mission is 210 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,480 about 200 to 20 C edited by Ravi Hooda Nasi. 211 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,160 That's just after maybe 50 years later, 30 years later. 212 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,520 It's all Tony Itic. It's only got traditions from 213 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,640 the same period. But maybe it was edited a little 214 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,600 later. Now the Bodley, we don't know. 215 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,520 It could be couple, 100 years later, 300 years later. 216 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,440 I mean it was it was edited or redacted in like 606 fifty. 217 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,760 You know, we don't know exactly. So story could have developed 218 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,760 over the course of a long time. Right. 219 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,400 So, so your point of departure would be that they're not trying 220 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:53,720 to necessarily give the answer towards what the TOSEFTA means, 221 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,840 but rather giving or but rather utilizing the TOSEFTA in order 222 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:05,680 to open up certain certain certain ideas that they want to, 223 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,240 they want to bring attention to within the context of the things 224 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,200 that they're going. Through yeah, the. 225 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,440 The problems that are that are existing in their times. 226 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,320 Yeah, it's a good question. You say, what are they doing 227 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:17,680 here? Well, they're doing two things, 228 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:18,840 yes. On the one hand, they're trying 229 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,120 to make sense of the Tosefta cause, whatever it meant 230 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,120 originally, they seem no longer to have access of. 231 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:30,560 But they are, as you say, all stories, good stories, are 232 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,480 relevant to their their audience and the time in which they're 233 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:34,960 told. Otherwise they wouldn't be 234 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:36,880 preserved. They nobody would care. 235 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,440 So they're also trying then to make sense of something that 236 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,480 would resonate with their time. And we'll see what that is in a 237 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,120 minute, OK? Is the fact that the Urushalmi 238 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,160 has a different take as to what these mean for you enough proof 239 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,000 to say that they're they're trying to figure out the Tosefta 240 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,400 versus relating their tradition of how to understand that 241 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,000 Tosefta? Well, the Yorosami, yeah, the 242 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,680 Yorosami made sense of the Tosefta in a different way. 243 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,880 Yeah. I mean, they had a totally 244 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:13,280 different scenario and about what Akhir did, about what this 245 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,560 all means. And that tells me, yeah, the 246 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,160 tradition of exactly what the Tosefta meant was lost. 247 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,600 After all, it's cryptic. When you talk about mystical 248 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,440 things, you sometimes you don't want to say it openly because 249 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,640 you don't want just everybody to know it's esoteric, it's secret. 250 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:34,600 It's something that only the. Yeah, yeah, it's something only 251 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,800 the word they should know. But then sometimes your 252 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,480 tradition gets cuts off and no one remembers what it meant. 253 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,080 That seems to have happened a little bit here. 254 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,320 All right. So let's do the second section 255 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,960 and we'll just review so that that we'll talk about this whole 256 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,440 thing in a minute. So in the second section he said 257 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,920 that as Alicia said, since that man, meaning since I this is 258 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,680 comedic style talk about yourself in the third person. 259 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,800 Since I have been banished from that world, the next World, I'll 260 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,520 go and enjoy myself in this world. 261 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,680 Why is he banished from the next World? 262 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,880 Because his merits have been destroyed and he hasn't been and 263 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,480 and he's no longer able to repent. 264 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:20,960 So there's no way he can do good deeds, and any sin he does is 265 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,560 going to just be there for him after death. 266 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,400 So he's basically been excluded from the world to come. 267 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,080 So he realizes that, OK, I've got no share in the world to 268 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,960 come, so I might as well enjoy myself in this world. 269 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,200 I think that's a very rational point of view. 270 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,600 If we knew we weren't trying to do good deeds and revote and 271 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,440 and, you know, be obedient to get to the next World, now why 272 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,960 wouldn't we just go out and enjoy ourselves anyway? 273 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,440 Even if we wouldn't think that way, I think it's plausible that 274 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:52,680 someone would. Akar would. 275 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,160 So Akar went out to evil ways. The Hebrew is tarbut raha. 276 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,360 So he went out to evil growth. I'll come back to that in a 277 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:00,920 minute. Why? 278 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,400 It's important. And he found a certain 279 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,680 prostitute. He's going to go have fun. 280 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,560 He propositioned her and she said to him, are you not Alicia 281 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,560 Benabuja, whose name went out throughout the world? 282 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,040 You're a famous rabbi. What are you doing? 283 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,920 Propositioning me. So he uprooted a radish on the 284 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,480 Sabbath and gave it to her. So we violate Shabbat. 285 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,839 And she said it is another. It is Ahir. 286 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:27,599 It's not Alicia Benabuya. So this is an ideology, a story 287 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,400 of origin of his name. How did he get the name Ahir? 288 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,280 Here's how he got it. He he showed the prostitute. 289 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,200 He wasn't a rabbi, he was some other man. 290 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,560 And she said, ah, someone else. So he got the name Ahir here. 291 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,120 Now it's it's a very, again, a kind of very unusual scenario. 292 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:50,800 A little bit, but again, it's going back to the Tosefta. 293 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,760 So cut the shoots in the Tosefta, which is not clear. 294 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:00,320 What it means is, is this uprooting of the radish. 295 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,320 You know, what does cut the chute mean? 296 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:06,440 He cut off a radish. So that's how we cut off the 297 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:12,280 radish and shoots too, which is some sort of growth, right. 298 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:13,840 That's why he went out to evil ways. 299 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,640 But it uses the word growth. So you know there was some sort 300 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,440 of evil growth that he was he was involved in. 301 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,880 So this continues the efforts to explain parts of the Tosefta. 302 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,320 Part of it was in this first section he gazed. 303 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,480 What did he see? Mala Metatron mouth led him into 304 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,200 sin. God being angered and cutting 305 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,240 the shoots is kind of explained here with the word occur. 306 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,320 So you know, like we saw in the first session, I encourage 307 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,000 everybody to go back. You know, we went through this 308 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,520 kind of table where all the parts of the Tosefta and the 309 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,720 verse that the Tosefta quotes are explained by the bodily in 310 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,240 this narrative scenario. OK. 311 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,360 And and that's how the not the bodily generates this scenario 312 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,920 by explaining the Tosefta. OK. 313 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,200 So that that's the beginning of the Bobly story. 314 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,960 But what the Bobly has done through the story is, as you 315 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,360 say, Ben see, you know, we're trying to address or make a 316 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,520 story that's relevant to their own concerns. 317 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:24,960 It has created the figure of a great sage. 318 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,000 I mean, we'll see how great he is in a minute. 319 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,760 The prostitute already says you're such a great sage, your 320 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,960 name is famous. So someone who obviously knows a 321 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:38,920 great deal of Torah, but who is now precluded from the next 322 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,120 World and therefore embarked on a life of sin, because why not? 323 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,600 You know you're not going to get to the next World. 324 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:50,280 So this raises the question for the Bavli are the merits of 325 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,880 Torah study intrinsic, inviolable, or can you lose 326 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,880 them? That is, the rabbis think Torah 327 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,680 study in the Bavli especially is the greatest thing anybody can 328 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,480 do. Tamu Tarak and AE Kulam. 329 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:04,880 Greater than all the other mitts vote. 330 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,760 They make exaggerated statements. 331 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,040 The Torah was why God created the world. 332 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,840 The Torah was the blueprint for creation. 333 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:16,080 OK, so if you've learned Torah, the rabbis want to know, could 334 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,560 you ever learn that merit first of all? 335 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,040 And how could you ever sin? That is, once you know Torah, 336 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,840 shouldn't that Torah protect you from sin? 337 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,800 I mean, shouldn't that Torah have its own positive effects? 338 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,360 That you would never become a Sinner and it's hard for them to 339 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,880 envision a great rabbi actually sinning? 340 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,840 Sure, he could do one sin or two sins, or, you know, a few sins, 341 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,640 but could he actually become? A. 342 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,760 Total Sinner, right? A heinous Sinner. 343 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,200 Someone who rejects it all, who throws away Judaism. 344 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,680 Having learned Torah. Now what they do here is 345 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,640 construct A plausible way this would kind of happen. 346 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,080 How would it happen that a great tourist sage would become a 347 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,520 Sinner? Well, he made a little mistake. 348 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,600 He said the wrong thing, and you know, it was an innocent almost 349 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,080 mistake. He got confused by his 350 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,360 tradition. He said maybe there are two 351 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,360 powers. Megatron was punished because of 352 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,600 that. Then Megatron wiped out his 353 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,840 slyote and he was his merits. He wasn't allowed to repent. 354 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,840 So you know, it was very unfortunate, but we have a 355 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,840 plausible construction of a rabbi who no longer can be 356 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,600 eligible for the world to come and therefore goes out to sin. 357 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,960 And I want everybody, you know, to understand you could see his 358 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:40,400 sins here are, you know, they're basically we would say Ben 359 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,680 Adamma Macomb, right. These aren't stealing and 360 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,360 killing. I mean, violating Shabbat 361 00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:49,000 because he doesn't care about observing Shabbat anymore. 362 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,120 And, you know, it's not even incest or adultery. 363 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:53,640 It's, you know, consorting with the prostitute. 364 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,080 I'm not saying it's good, right? But in terms of the scale of 365 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,000 sin, it's not the worst thing in the world. 366 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,080 If you remember the Yorashami, he had much greater sins there. 367 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:02,840 Yes. Yes. 368 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,640 OK. Bob Lee is, you know, it's 369 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,640 because it's constructed to him in this way. 370 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,800 It's sort of great tourist stage who somehow lost his share in 371 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:18,480 the world to come and therefore, you know, logically figured I 372 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,000 might as well enjoy myself here. Why am I saying, well, he he he 373 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,440 went out and became a Sinner, but it wasn't Even so bad. 374 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,160 OK, so that's happened now. Now the rest of the story, in my 375 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,400 opinion, is trying to answer this conundrum. 376 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:36,000 Will, can Alicia Benabuya really lose his merit for Torah and 377 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,640 descend into sin, which is something the Rabbis might be 378 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,080 concerned about for themselves? Could we ever, you know, 379 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,640 envision us experiencing this fate? 380 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,920 Or is the Torah he learned ultimately going to prevail 381 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,080 somehow despite everything that happened? 382 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,880 Because they believe Torah is just so great and and and has 383 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,200 such positive effects? OK, so that's what I think is 384 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,400 their main question in the story. 385 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,800 That's not what the toseft is about at all. 386 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,000 But the rallies aren't interested in what the toseft is 387 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,440 about. They're interested in something 388 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:10,760 else, the rabbis of the bottling. 389 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,200 So they're they've done their work in interpreting the 390 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,120 Tosefta, but as you say, they've done it in a way that it is 391 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:19,800 going to be relevant and important to them. 392 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,040 OK, so let's go on now to Section 3. 393 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,040 Yeah, the. Beautiful. 394 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:26,720 No, I I just said beautiful. Beautiful. 395 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,240 So in Section 3 we have 3 dialogues between Alicia and 396 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,680 Rebbie Mayer, which is which are author and Rebbie Mayer, which 397 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:39,320 is already kind of interesting because Rebbie Mayer is not 398 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,400 giving up on Alicia despite all this thing that's happened. 399 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,760 So that that is another sort of sub question in the, in the, in 400 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,040 the, in the, in the story. That is, if you do have a sage 401 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,640 who's sinning like Alicia Benabuya, should you even learn 402 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,760 Torah from him or would you get corrupted? 403 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,680 But at least here it seems that may or will learn Torah. 404 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,240 But so let's see their dialogues. 405 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,320 You can see another thing. I'm not sure we'll fully have 406 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,480 time to explore this, but you can see Section 3 ABC this this 407 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,520 story is a very, very beautiful literary structure. 408 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,000 Section 4 there five, and then I've labeled this four prime, 3 409 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,920 prime, 2 prime, one prime. It has what we call a chiastic 410 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:33,240 structure where the first part corresponds to the last part, 411 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,320 the second part to the second to last to the third to the last, 412 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,880 third to the last. So it's it's actually a very, 413 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,440 very polished and beautiful literary structure and you have 414 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,320 these internal units of three as we'll see within it. 415 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,480 I don't know if we'll have total time to unpack all of this, but 416 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,240 I I wanted to mention I hope you don't hope it's OK. 417 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,640 There are a couple really I think fine studies of this One 418 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:03,320 is a a book by if you could see this a long gush and gutstein 419 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,520 called The Sinner and the Amnesiac. 420 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,160 Does that show up to you guys at all? 421 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:14,120 OK and. It it's blurry, but you know 422 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:15,560 what? We we can add it to the 423 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:21,240 description, right? OK, and the other is my book, 424 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,480 Tell Munich's stories. I guess that's also blurry. 425 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,120 OK, I've blurred this background, but anyway, so in 426 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,880 both of these you'll find much more detailed discussion of all 427 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,880 of this. Also, on my NYU website I have a 428 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,240 long article on this very story if you're if you're interested. 429 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,280 Anyway, let's look at these dialogues between Akh and Rabi 430 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,400 Maher. So after he went out to evil 431 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,560 ways, Akhar asked Rabi Maher. So Rabi Maher already knows 432 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,680 Akhir is sinning, violating Shabbat, consorting with 433 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,480 prostitutes, but he's still hanging out with him. 434 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,600 Why? Well, because as we'll see, 435 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,920 Akhar's Torah is still so precious. 436 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,680 So he asked Rebbe Mayer what is written, the one no less than 437 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,520 the other, is God's doing OK? He quotes him a verse from 438 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,080 Cohellet, from the Bible, and he says, what does this verse mean? 439 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,720 And Mayer answers everything that God made. 440 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,880 He made its counterpart. He made mountains. 441 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,040 He made hills. He made seas, He made rivers. 442 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,640 OK, that's what the one no less than the other is God's doing. 443 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:26,480 Now, Mayer's answer, I think, is very ordinary. 444 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,960 That is, it's a boring, straightforward understanding of 445 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,920 this verse. Yeah, God made mountains and 446 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,520 hills and and and seas and rivers, OK, you know, great. 447 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,240 So this shows Mayor's inferiority to Akher because 448 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,040 Akher's going to come back with a better explanation. 449 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,360 He said to him, that is Akher, Alicia said to Mayor Akiba, your 450 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,160 master did not say this. You know there's a better 451 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,480 explanation from your own master. 452 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,760 You don't know it or you didn't. You forgot it. 453 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,560 I know it rather. He made righteous, He made 454 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,720 wicked. He made the Garden of Eden. 455 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,160 He made Gehenna. Each and every person has two 456 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,000 portions, one in the Garden of Eden and one in Gehenna. 457 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,280 The righteous man, having earned merit, takes his portion and the 458 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,520 portion of his fellow in the Garden of Eden. 459 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,920 The wicked man, having been found guilty, takes his portion 460 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,760 and the portion of his fellow in Gehenna. 461 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,440 Now, this is a very interesting but also problematic 462 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,680 interpretation. I mean, first of all, it's it's, 463 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,480 it's, it's, it's it's a better explanation than Meyer because 464 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,720 it's so novel, it's so innovative. 465 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,760 What does it mean? The one no less than the other 466 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,240 is God's doing. He made righteous and wicked and 467 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,960 Johannam and Garden of Eden. And you know, so this is a much 468 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,160 better explanation. So This is why Reverend Meyer is 469 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,000 still trying to learn from Akher. 470 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,920 Akher, even though he's a Sinner, still has this great 471 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,200 Torah and Mayer still wants to learn it. 472 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,480 Now the very fact that it's a better explanation, there's 473 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,000 there's more to it than that. It's also I think probably self 474 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,960 referential. That is the the the thing that 475 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,520 Akher was accused of was basically a kind of dualism. 2 476 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,600 powers, heaven forbid, the two divine powers and usually two 477 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,480 divine powers is the power of good and the power of evil. 478 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,480 You know, that's that's the classic dualism, which is of 479 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,520 course a good explanation of why there's evil in the world. 480 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,360 This Zoroastrians believe, there's lots of dualistic 481 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,800 religions believe this. But here Akher is saying God 482 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,800 made righteous and the wicked, He made the Garden of Eden and 483 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,760 he made the heaven, He made the good things, he made the bad 484 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,320 things. So Akher is basically saying, I 485 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,560 don't accept dualism. And I think the narrators or the 486 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,240 people who made the story, the storytellers are kind of hinting 487 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,080 to us, ah, really wasn't a heretic. 488 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,880 It was a, it was a, it was a, you know, inadvertent 489 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,840 explanation that came out of his mouth. 490 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,600 He didn't mean that he believed in two divine powers. 491 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,120 He was like, why is Vegetron sitting? 492 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,960 And, you know, then he said it and all this. 493 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,520 So it's basically meant to make him a little. 494 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,960 So that's why they emphasize the mouth part. 495 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,400 That's why they said that he sinned with his mouth as opposed 496 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,840 to he sinned. Yeah, I mean the the fact that 497 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,280 he's saying with his mouth is also related to CEFTA. 498 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,880 Do not say before the Angel that it was an error. 499 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,640 You know as God may be angered by your talk your mouth leads 500 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,600 you into sin, you know but but you're right. 501 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,320 But it's hinting that that he that what he what what happened 502 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,600 to him in that sad episode with Metatron was an error. 503 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,240 It was what we would call shogue, you know, or accident it 504 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,040 wasn't. It wasn't part of a hardcore 505 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,000 heresy. OK, so there's a hint at that. 506 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:57,280 Now, it's also, this is also a very, very problematic theology 507 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,480 by Jewish and rabbinic standards. 508 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,560 The righteous man, having earned merit, takes his portion and the 509 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,440 portion of his fellow in the Garden of Eden. 510 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,800 I mean, we never heard just about anywhere that I know of in 511 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,040 rabbinic literature that something like this happens, 512 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,240 that one person grabs someone else's merits and the wicked man 513 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,120 gets punished for someone else's sin. 514 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,880 So. And and if you look at some of 515 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,000 the gaonium who comment on this story, they actually reject 516 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,280 this. They say this is wrong. 517 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:27,960 You know, they can't accept this. 518 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,480 This is so you know I think what's going on is they're I 519 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,120 mean I don't fully know what's going on but I think they're 520 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:40,800 trying to explain well this is unfair and this is a little bit 521 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,840 what happened to Akher. It's unfair again kind of made 522 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,200 it covertly sending us a message that it's really not right that 523 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,800 something like this would happen to Akher. 524 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,840 That a righteous man would lose his his his his portion and that 525 00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:01,400 a that a wicked man even if he does some some good deeds would 526 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,160 would get punished for someone else anyway. 527 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,200 It's it's definitely raising this whole issue of you know 528 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,040 rewards and punishments and so on. 529 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:14,160 So so I think this this needs a little more investigation. 530 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,920 But anyway OK we have a little again, a parenthetic comment on 531 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,000 the story I'm just going to skip over but basically a later rabbi 532 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,120 kind of glosses this with a proof text. 533 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,680 OK now we we then get to a second discussion between Akka 534 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,480 and Rebbi Mayer. So now Akkar again after he went 535 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,920 out to evil ways again he could see the repetition. 536 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,240 Akkar asks Rebi Mayer what is written. 537 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,240 Gold or glass cannot match its value, nor vessels of fine gold 538 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,880 be exchanged for it. Again, it's sort of interesting 539 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,000 verse, and he's asking Robert Mayer what this means. 540 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:54,080 This is from the Book of Job. If there is probably wisdom 541 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,640 Hochman, but the rabbis probably understood this is Torah. 542 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,080 So he said. Matt Mayer says this refers to 543 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,920 matter of Torah which are difficult to acquire, like 544 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,360 vessels of gold and vessels of fine gold and easy to lose like 545 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,600 vessels of glass. So this is actually, you know, a 546 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,520 better explanation of the verse that Mayer did the first time. 547 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,560 It doesn't basically just repeat the verse, it actually adds 548 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,760 something to it and might kind of makes an analogy, gold or 549 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,280 glass. Why are they compared to Torah? 550 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,600 Because they're difficult to acquire. 551 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,560 Torah is difficult to acquire and they're easy to lose, like 552 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,360 vessels of glass can break. So he he, he introduces a kind 553 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,240 of analogy. You know, he tells you, in other 554 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,560 words, more than what the verse just says. 555 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,040 And there's trying to up his game here, but it's still 556 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,400 inferior to that of Akher. Akher again responds by God, are 557 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,920 they even like clay vessels? In other words, if you are 558 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,280 comparing words of Torah to different kinds of vessels, gold 559 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,720 glass, you would also have to compare them to clay vessels. 560 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,160 But clay vessels are worthless or cheap, you know. 561 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,280 So we wouldn't want Torah compared to clay vessels. 562 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,600 So I don't like your explanation because it leads you down, you 563 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,200 know, it leads you to a bad place. 564 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,800 OK, we can't we can't accept this. 565 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,480 And and a keeper, your master didn't say thus right it this 566 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,520 wasn't even the explanation of your own teacher that you didn't 567 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,160 know. You didn't learn, you forgot, 568 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,400 which I know. Rather, just as vessels of gold 569 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,400 and vessels of glass, even if they are broken, can be 570 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:36,320 restored, so a sage, even though he sins, can be restored Now 571 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,080 this is right clearly self referential to the question 572 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,320 we're trying to figure out. Can a sage who sins do 573 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,640 repentance? Always. 574 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,440 Can his Torah prevail? And he would be forgiven. 575 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,800 And Akhar says yeah, he could. So Mayer says to him, Then you 576 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,280 2. Repent, OK, he's clear. 577 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,960 You know, he clearly sees this as self referential, referring 578 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,520 to Akher himself. So you repent. 579 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,240 But Akher says to him, no, for I've already heard from behind 580 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,960 the curtain, the curtain up in heaven return rebellious 581 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,800 children except Akher. So I think this is particularly 582 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,760 tragic because everybody else can repent, but because of this 583 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,520 unfortunate incident with Metatron, Akher can't repent. 584 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,320 And he tells that to mayor. He says, you know, you're right, 585 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,120 You know, I can't. Now mayor probably didn't hear 586 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:32,520 this. I mean, he obviously wasn't up 587 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:38,080 there in that heavenly scenario. So after had heard that voice, 588 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,560 but mayor had never heard that voice. 589 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:46,800 So but now he's apprised of it and you know we the audience and 590 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,400 mayor learn again why he can't repent. 591 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,239 And this is important because the simple the simple solution 592 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,440 for the sage who does sin, if he ever sins, is to repent. 593 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,360 Why not Then you're then you're sage again, you know then you're 594 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,680 back in the in the good. Then you're, you know in good 595 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,040 standing and you you stand to to get to Alam haba. 596 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,880 But the story has to preclude repentance, to preclude that 597 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,720 easy answer, to get to The difficult answer is what 598 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:22,480 ultimately will happen and will the merit of Torah save you 599 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,760 despite not being able to repent? 600 00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:31,440 OK, now we get to the third story, third dialogue, and it 601 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,960 starts a little differently. Our sages taught and once 602 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,320 happened that Akher was riding this horse on the Sabbath going 603 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,600 on his way and Rabbi Nair was walking after him to learn Torah 604 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,880 from his mouth. So here I think it makes it 605 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,240 explicit what we've been saying. Maher's walking after him 606 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:50,920 because he needs to learn Torah. So even though this sage is a 607 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,000 Sinner or a heretic, you know a terrible seems to be a terrible 608 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,760 person. Although as we've said, he 609 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,680 wasn't stealing and killing right? 610 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,080 He was violating Shabbat or whatever. 611 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,400 You know Torah is so important, the disciples still wants to 612 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,160 learn. Now this is going to be 613 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,680 questioned later in the story, but for now we are supposed to 614 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,760 understand Torah is so precious you've got to go out and get it. 615 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,640 Even from a problematic teacher, a sinning teacher, a heretical 616 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,400 teacher. So here his teacher is in the in 617 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,480 the in the act of sinning. He's riding horse on Shabbat, 618 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,680 which you're not allowed to do. And in some sources, this is 619 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,040 actually associated with with, with rebellion. 620 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,080 That is, the way you rebel against Judaism or the rabbis is 621 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,760 you ride a horse on Shabbat. Technically, riding a horse on 622 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,880 Shabbat is not the biggest violation of Shabbat. 623 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,840 It's like a Schmutt, or you know, it's not even right or 624 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,680 whatever, but but it it's symbolic. 625 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,840 So he's, he's symbolically riding a horse on Shabbat. 626 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,800 But again, we would say, yeah, he's riding a horse on Shabbat, 627 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,720 'cause it's easier to ride than walk. 628 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,480 So if you're not concerned about violating the laws because 629 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,920 you're you've been precluded from Alam haba, of course you're 630 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,120 going to ride a horse on Shabbat. 631 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,400 You know, just like anybody today who doesn't care about 632 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,920 observing Shabbat, he's going to drive instead of walk to shore 633 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,440 or wherever they're going, right? 634 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,480 So we understand what he's doing, right? 635 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,120 The mayor's trying to learn Torah now, Arthur says to him. 636 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,640 To Mayor, Mayor, turn back Hazor, since I've already 637 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,880 measured by the footsteps of my horse that the Sabbath boundary 638 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,240 is here. You're not allowed to go 2000 639 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:39,200 cubits outside of your place of rest on the Sabbath. 640 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,520 So. So Mayor has been following 641 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,680 Alicia Benabuya and I guess got so immersed on Toro he didn't 642 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,800 realize he was about to violate Shabbat by violating this law 643 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:58,520 about not going too far and and and Alicia has to remind him. 644 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,240 So this again shows the greatness of Alicia Benabuya. 645 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,440 He's been somehow monitoring the distance, counting by the 646 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,440 footsteps of his horse while engaged in these discussions of 647 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:15,280 Torah with Remy Mayer. And you know, he's still 648 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:21,240 cognizant of of the mitzvah. And he wants he wants Reba Mayor 649 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:25,680 not to violate it, which is also blurring the lines, I think like 650 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:31,040 you were mentioning earlier. Is he really as as evil as you 651 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,920 make it when he's actually consciously trying to make sure 652 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,760 marriage does not violate? Yeah, exactly, 'cause he's not 653 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,960 really rebelled against God or, you know, he's like we've seen 654 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,800 in some of the other sources. Of yourself in his own faith. 655 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,880 Yeah, yeah, he knows that he can't do it. 656 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,440 But you know, he's still concerned for his talmid, for 657 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,840 his disciple, right? So it's it's part of the kind of 658 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,680 tragic construction of Alicia Benabuja. 659 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,080 He's not evil. He's tragic, right. 660 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,280 But again, he's a figure to pose this question, you know, sitting 661 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,440 sage question. OK, so he tells mayor, you know, 662 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,000 you go back. And so he said to him, mayor 663 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,400 says to him, then you should repent, then you Hazor. 664 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,720 So again, there's a nice play on Hazor, right? 665 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:19,040 Hazor. Hazar means both go back, go 666 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:24,040 back and don't keep travelling. But it also means to repent. 667 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,000 So you go back and and this is all very symbolic, the Sabbath 668 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,280 boundary, you're going outside the community of Torah. 669 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,440 You're breaking the boundaries. You know you're leaving or 670 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,320 you're staying inside. I mean it's very, very, very 671 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:45,520 symbolic scene. But again, when Mayor says to 672 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,280 Alicia, you Hazor, you turn back from violating Shabbat and you 673 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,000 repent double entendre, you know he says the same thing. 674 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,400 No, I've already heard from behind the curtain return 675 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,960 rebellious children except Akhir. 676 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,880 I can't do it. OK, So again tragic. 677 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:07,160 OK, so we move on to Section 4. Now in this Mayor took hold of 678 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,600 him. He took hold of Akhir and he 679 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,200 brought him to the House of study. 680 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,440 He said to a child, tell me your study verse. 681 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,000 Now what's going on here is. The way the rabbi sometimes got 682 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,400 a kind of prophecy or you know, intimation of of God's will in 683 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,360 an age after the age of prophecy is to do this. 684 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,480 You would ask a, a, a child what, what verse do you happen 685 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,320 to be studying now? And that verse was like a 686 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,240 message for you. What kind of prophecy we or you 687 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:43,520 could like open? I mean we have other instances 688 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,120 of this. You could open a book and open a 689 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,800 tanah and stick your finger in and that verse would be 690 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,360 relevant. Or. 691 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:57,560 If you just were passing by, you know, the outside of a big 692 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,280 message or bait Midrash and you heard a verse from inside that 693 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,400 pasuk, that verse could be relevant to you. 694 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,160 So these were mechanisms like the bot call or, you know, ways 695 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,640 of getting a kind of message. So Mayor hasn't given up on 696 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,680 Alicia yet because he's heard Alicia tell him about this 697 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,880 heavenly voice. You can't, you know, return. 698 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,400 You can't repent. But he himself hasn't heard it. 699 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,720 So I think mayor is still fighting for his rabbi. 700 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:27,080 He hasn't accepted it even if Alicia has. 701 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,640 So he goes to the Bateman Raj. He says to a child, tell me your 702 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,400 study verse and the child says, he said to him there's no peace, 703 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,320 said the Lord for the wicked. So in other words, this confirms 704 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:44,480 that Alicia is wicked. What is the relevant verse to 705 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:49,840 Alicia Achir and to his fate? There's no peace for the wicked. 706 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,080 OK, so this doesn't help, Mayor. The opposite. 707 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,360 It confirms exactly what Alicia said. 708 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,840 God doesn't want any part of me or my repentance. 709 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,240 Mayor doesn't give up. He brought him to another fate, 710 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:02,960 Midrash. And he says to the child, What's 711 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,680 your voice? The child said to him, though 712 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,000 you wash with natron and use much Lye with kind of soaps, 713 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,640 whatever, your guilt is ingrained before me, declares 714 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,320 the Lord God another verse about Alicia being guilty. 715 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,760 He brought him to another house to study. 716 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,360 The child said to him, and you who are doomed to ruin. 717 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,160 So over and over and over again we're getting no Alicia is 718 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:31,760 indeed fated for perdition. He brought him to 13 houses of 719 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,840 study. They recited for him in similar 720 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,200 ways. Now 13 is the stock number in 721 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,840 the bobly. It doesn't always mean 13. 722 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,160 It means a lot. Took him to a lot of houses of 723 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,280 study. In the 13th House of study the 724 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:48,000 child said and to the wicked God said, who are used to recite my 725 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,800 laws and mouth, the terms of my covenant, seeing that you spurn 726 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,160 my discipline and brush my words aside. 727 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:58,240 Now the word wicked to the wicked is ule Rasha. 728 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,320 But that child stuttered so it sounded as if he said and to 729 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,880 Alicia, God said he said Ule Alicia. 730 00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:10,920 So this is like a a very, first of all this is brilliant 731 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,920 storytelling technique. I mean, can you see how 732 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,720 absolutely brilliant this is? They find a verse that says ule 733 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,960 Rasha and it's like it sounds like Alicia, it's kind of great 734 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,320 word play right there. So it makes it black on white 735 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,840 that that God doesn't want Alicia and doesn't want his 736 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,160 Torah. I mean, this is actually, I 737 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,080 think made it worse. Not only has Alicia not have a 738 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,680 place in the world to come, but who are you to recite my laws 739 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,680 and mouth the terms of my covenant? 740 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,480 I I don't want you even learning Torah. 741 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,240 OK, now now we have something interesting here. 742 00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,120 Some say Akher took a knife and cut him up and sent him to 13 743 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,800 houses of study. And some say, Akher said to him, 744 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,920 if I had a knife with me, I would cut you up. 745 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,800 Now this notion of cutting up someone and sending them around, 746 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,280 remember this is in the end of the book of Shoftim where this 747 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,040 happens to the right. So this is playing on that 748 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,840 biblical story, but the. Pillagish Bagiva. 749 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,400 Story Yeah, the pillagish Bagiva story exactly. 750 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:16,600 But this is the one place where Akhir is portrayed as a real 751 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,120 Sinner by killing a child and and sending him around. 752 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:25,880 I think this is got into the Bodley by accident based on the 753 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,360 Urshami, because if you remember the Urshami, one of their 754 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,520 explanations of what it meant that cut the shoots was kill 755 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,960 young students of Torah. It was exactly this. 756 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,400 And in that section of of the Urshami he did terrible things. 757 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,720 He collaborated with the Romans, he killed young students, he 758 00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:45,280 sent them away from the Bateman rush. 759 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,200 They made sense of the Urshami in a different way. 760 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:53,680 So I think this is a kind of gloss that somehow got in based 761 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,680 on the Irshami and then you could see probably some people 762 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,720 in the Bob Lee, some storytellers, you know have him 763 00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:02,480 say if I had a knife with me, I would have cut you up. 764 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,720 So he didn't do anything. You know he just kind of made a 765 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,640 threat that makes him, you know a much more sympathetic figure. 766 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,840 But anyway so I think this is, this is this doesn't really go 767 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,440 the cutting up doesn't really go with the rest of the story. 768 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,400 I think it it doesn't belong here, but OK, whatever. 769 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:22,520 All right. So then we. 770 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,120 So this makes it absolutely clear to Mayor and the audience, 771 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:32,560 if they didn't know before that Alicia is, is cannot repent and 772 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,800 is considered a Sinner because of what he did, because Megatron 773 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,720 wiped out all his merits, you know, OK, so now we get to the 774 00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:44,080 crux of the story. And, you know, if we get to the 775 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:49,760 fact that there's a chiastic structure, this kind of the 776 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,480 central section is this Section 5. 777 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,920 And again, often that is the point of this kind of structure 778 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,440 where the different parts correspond. 779 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,800 To. So we're reaching the apex based 780 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,520 on the kind. That's what I'm saying. 781 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,720 We're reaching the apex right now, OK? 782 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:13,360 So where are we? OK, so when Arthur died they 783 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,120 said we don't know who the they is but I assume it's angels 784 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:22,240 cause he's dead right? Let him not be punished and let 785 00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:25,560 him not enter the world to come. Let him not be punished. 786 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,080 Since he studied Torah regularly, let him not enter the 787 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,920 world to come since he sinned. So I think this is like answer 788 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,200 number one for our conundrum or our main question. 789 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,640 What happens when you have a great scholar of Torah who's 790 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,520 then becomes a Sinner, even though that shouldn't happen and 791 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,040 it's very hard to understand how it happens. 792 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,960 But if it does happen, like in Alicia's case, what happens when 793 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,480 he dies? Does he get rewarded? 794 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,120 Or purgatory he's in. Purgatory. 795 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:53,720 Yeah. Well, it's a kind of stalemate, 796 00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:55,680 I would say. This is a. 797 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,200 Purgatory would be to be in hell. 798 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,120 Yeah. This is this is saying not to 799 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,400 send him to purgatory, but just not to send him to Alamaba. 800 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:06,320 Yeah, he definitely doesn't get Alamaba right. 801 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,720 Yeah. But he doesn't get the opposite 802 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,800 either. But he doesn't get anything, so 803 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,040 it's kind of sad in a way. He just disappears, right? 804 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:19,800 Anyway. I think that's that's that's a 805 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,080 plausible answer. That's one answer the 806 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,880 storyteller wants us to entertain. 807 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,920 Well, it could be they kind of balance each other out. 808 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,440 He doesn't go to get him. He could have gone there. 809 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,840 He he'd look at all the sins he did, even if it's just Shabbat 810 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:38,480 and prostitutes and and so on. But but but no he wouldn't even 811 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,320 get that because of the power of Torah. 812 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,120 So it's already kind of hiddish, right? 813 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,680 It's more than you might have expected. 814 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,240 But then we have something else, Rebbe Mayer said. 815 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:51,440 When I die, I shall cause smoke to rise from his grave. 816 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,000 When Rebbe Mayer died, smoke rose up from Maher's grave. 817 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,920 Now it's a little difficult to understand what this means, but 818 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,320 I think what mayor is saying, what the storytellers are saying 819 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,200 here, is that, you know, this first answer was unsatisfactory 820 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,440 and it's better that he'd be punished and then be able to get 821 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:17,720 to Lam Haba. So Mayor said, we don't know how 822 00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:22,840 this happens. Mayor dies and he goes to the 823 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:29,200 Angels, he goes to, you know, I don't know whoever's responsible 824 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,080 for. Yeah, right. 825 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,160 The mayor is suggesting that instead of letting it cancel 826 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,200 itself out, he should feel the full force of both. 827 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,320 Sides, yeah, the you should pay for the sins so that you can 828 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,000 enjoy along haba. Both sides are, yes, yes, OK. 829 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,760 It's not cancelling out. It's both, right? 830 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,120 It's both. We got to, we got to accept the 831 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,000 fact that he sinned, but he did learn Torah, right? 832 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,640 So I want him to to 1st pay off his sins so that he could get to 833 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,680 Alam haba, you know, and like how mayor did this, I don't 834 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:03,760 know. But again, this is just 835 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,320 storyteller. I think we're not supposed to 836 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,400 take this literally. Again, this is kind of narrative 837 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,280 theology. It's. 838 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:11,560 It's a way of. It's a way of. 839 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:12,680 Of. Of, of, of. 840 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,760 Of it's a way of leading us to theoretical and theological 841 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,680 ideas right now that we're trying to play with play with 842 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,280 the with the theological idea, OK. 843 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:28,720 Exactly now, Ravi, Yokonon said. Is it a mighty deed to burn 844 00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:31,800 one's master with fire? One was among us, and yet we 845 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,160 cannot save him. If I were to take him by the 846 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:36,960 hand, who would tear him away from me? 847 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,320 When I die, I will extinguish the smoke from his grave. 848 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,080 So Rebhi Yokonon is not satisfied with this. 849 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,160 And I think this is like answer #3 by our understanding of how 850 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:52,160 stories work. That is, it's it's it's unfair. 851 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,520 It's it seems bad that a Torah scholar should be punished for 852 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,760 these sins. He after all, he knew Torah, He 853 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,320 was one of us, and we have to save him. 854 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,680 When you say he knew Torah, isn't the point more that Rebhi 855 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,480 Yokonon is saying that a person who learns Torah something 856 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,160 something had to be preserved within him through that learning 857 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:18,960 that he it? Could be, yeah, it could be 858 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,160 something like that. I mean, at least that's how I'm 859 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,280 understanding it. But they're saying that to, you 860 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,080 know, maybe externally there's certain things that you see, but 861 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,160 you know internally there there, there might be more from from 862 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,120 the sheer learning of Torah that is able to to instill in a 863 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,760 person. Yeah, I mean, I I don't know. 864 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,840 I mean, you could put it that way or you could just say that 865 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:44,280 the the merit for the Torah should ultimately benefit him in 866 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:49,440 some way and and should never be destroyed, even if he sins, you 867 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,480 know, Yeah, you could. You could do it in different 868 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,600 ways. I don't know exactly, but he. 869 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,800 But Rebbi Ochinan says I'm going to extinguish this smoke. 870 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,000 When Rebbi Ochinan died, the smoke ceased from the grave of 871 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,040 Lahir. He did it. 872 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,520 We have a little parenthetic comment explaining this. 873 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,360 The eulogizer, in other words, you know, the person who was 874 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,160 praising Revy Oakland on after his death said of him. 875 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,880 Even the guard of the gate, I think it's the gate of Gehennam, 876 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,520 could not stand before. You, our master, you were such a 877 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,400 great sage when you went to Alamaba, you actually walked 878 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:28,440 right into Gehennam where his grave was smoking, and you took 879 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,920 him out of there and got the smoke to be extinguished. 880 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,680 So kind of your merit helped him out. 881 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,720 So I think this is important too, because both Mayor and Ravi 882 00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:43,480 Okonon are instrumental in ultimately saving Akhir. 883 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,080 I think that's what this means. He got him out of Gahanam, he 884 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:51,040 got him to Alomaba. So it's not just Torah in and of 885 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,040 itself that is going to get you the merit, but it's also the 886 00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,600 fact that you, you, you, the Torah that you taught, that you 887 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,560 innovative, that you created, was taught to other people and 888 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,400 you're not eating them. Carry on that Torah and and that 889 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,160 has a kind of living embodiment of Torah that ultimately saves 890 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,280 you. So Alicia is saved by his Torah, 891 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,920 but through his tamidium too. His merits are now belonging to 892 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:18,840 others because. He's. 893 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,680 Yeah, exactly. He's he's taught Torah. 894 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,800 So his Torah has gone beyond him, right. 895 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,040 And it's become part of Rebbe Mayer. 896 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:27,440 It's become part of Rebbe Okonnon. 897 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,120 It's been part of others. And and and that that merit 898 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,760 can't be lost is basically what the storytellers are saying. 899 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:40,560 So here's I think answer #1, you know their primary answer even 900 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,440 if the sage does sin. However, that would happen even 901 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,320 though it's hard to understand how a sage would sin. 902 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,240 And then if he, if he did not repent, but even if it came to 903 00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:52,720 it that the sage became a Sinner, he lost his faith. 904 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,960 You know, whatever. He would ultimately get rewarded 905 00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:02,080 for his Torah that would that would prevail, that wins out in 906 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,280 the end. That's how powerful Torah is. 907 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,120 But this and now in the next section, the story actually, I 908 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,240 think recapitulates this lesson for us. 909 00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:14,520 This is how stories work, especially in oral cultures. 910 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,960 You know, they tell you the same thing in different ways to make 911 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,720 sure you heard the lesson. So the daughter of Akher came 912 00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:24,360 before Rebihuda Nasi, right? So we're going to the next 913 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:32,080 generation, Akher's daughter, so his progeny and Rebihuda Nasi. 914 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:37,080 So mayor, student, spiritual progeny and physical progeny. 915 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,160 So we're we're recapitulating the same characters in the next 916 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,120 World, the next generation, she said to him. 917 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:51,000 My master support me. So she's poor, he said to her. 918 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,640 My daughter, whose daughter are you? 919 00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:54,520 She said to him the daughter of Ather. 920 00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:00,680 So he said, is there still his seed in this world? 921 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,640 He has no offspring or descendant among his people, no 922 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,520 survivor where he once lived. This is talking about the wicked 923 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,760 man in context. So Rabi Rabi Huda Nasi can't 924 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:15,920 believe that he would still have sons or daughters because wicked 925 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,400 people aren't supposed to have survivors and and he obviously 926 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,800 believes Akhir's wicked so he's saying good your father was 927 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,640 wicked. I I can't even believe that he 928 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,800 has surviving children, she said to him, My master remembers 929 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,040 Torah do not remember his deeds. I think again this sums up the 930 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,680 crux of the story. What are the rabbis saying Torah 931 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:43,240 prevails not deeds. Torah should be will be valued 932 00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:47,280 more than whatever sins the Torah scholar might commit. 933 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,440 Fire came down from heaven and tried to burn Rabbi Rabbi Yuna 934 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,080 Nasi and it was almost tried to punish him for not being 935 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,640 sympathetic to the daughter, for not supporting the daughter 936 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:04,520 because, and for calling ah her wicked. 937 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,040 And then Rabbi Yuna Nasi wept and said if this happens for 938 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,160 those who dishonor Torah, how much the more so for those who 939 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:17,840 respect her, You know, you get a protective celestial, divine 940 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:23,680 fire ultimately, if you've learned Torah and then, you 941 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,040 know, become a Sinner, just respected it. 942 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,840 And so how much the more so with with those of us who, you know, 943 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,160 actually respect Torah, who didn't ever sin, you know, how 944 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,720 much should we be protected and favored and ultimately get 945 00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:41,160 married? But you see how in this, this 946 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:47,480 recapitulates the whole story. Daughter asks for support, that 947 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:52,840 is, you know, some sort of reward or charity. 948 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,200 At first she's denied it, like Akhir was denied Alam haba, but 949 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,720 but then she's given it by virtue of Torah. 950 00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:04,880 She says, remember his Torah. And here, you know, God has kind 951 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:09,760 of been persuaded by this point. You know, God comes down and and 952 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,440 Warren's Ravi Huda Nasi, you know, just like Ravi Ochinon 953 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,280 was, was able to put out this fire. 954 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,920 So, you know, this is basically the same story. 955 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,920 The same lesson with mayor's student and Akher's daughter. 956 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:31,920 In The next generation, Akher's Torah brings charity, you know, 957 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,720 support for his, for his daughters. 958 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:40,440 You know what's interesting too is you know that you can see how 959 00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:46,720 this scene Harkins back a little bit to scene 4. 960 00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:48,400 That's why I called it Four Prime. 961 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,920 It's also in the Beit Midrash probably that's where Ravi 962 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:58,560 Yehuda Nasi is. And you know, it's also a child. 963 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,400 Remember in four it was the Tommy Dean male children of the 964 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,880 House of study. Here it's a female child of of 965 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,120 Akher, right? But we sort of have some of 966 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:16,000 those elements, you know, coming back together and in in scene 4, 967 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,400 you know God was over and over rejecting Akher, and Akher then 968 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,600 brought death to the child. Either I would have killed you 969 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:27,480 or I killed you, but here God accepts the Torah of Akher 970 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:28,920 because. He brings life to the. 971 00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,920 Child, yeah. And the Torah brings life to the 972 00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:34,480 child. So a reversal of that scene 4, 973 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,920 you know, because the Rabbis are saying ultimately, you know, 974 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:44,400 they say after this climax in scene 5, Akher is is kind of, 975 00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:54,160 you know, redeemed, OK, now the story doesn't end here, but the 976 00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:58,600 next sections sort of step outside the narrative frame. 977 00:57:58,600 --> 00:57:59,880 So I'm going to come back to them. 978 00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,200 How did Remy mayor learn Toro from Akher? 979 00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:03,800 You see, that's kind of a question. 980 00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:10,360 And and then again, a Drash Rava expounded, the story actually 981 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,800 continues here in the final section. 982 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:14,840 So we'll do this first and then we'll go back. 983 00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,920 So in the final section, we have Rava Barafshela came before 984 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,160 Elijah when came before Elijah Navi. 985 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:29,520 And you know, certain rabbis do have visits by Elijah Rava 986 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,880 Barafshela. So he's in the middle of bamray 987 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,960 period. So we're skipping, you know, a 988 00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:38,640 few generations into the future. So he for however, comes before 989 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,120 you know El Yao and Avi. He said to him, what is the Holy 990 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,120 One, blessed be he, do it. So what is Sakharish Bharkar 991 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,560 doing? He said to him he recites 992 00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,480 tradition from the mouths of all the rabbis, but he does not 993 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,200 recite from the mouths of Rabbi Mayer. 994 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,720 So as in many other stories and some sources, you know, even 995 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,280 there's the Yeshiva Shalmala and God is learning in the yeshiva 996 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,400 Shalmala and these reciting traditions and he's quoting 997 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,560 rabbis, but he's not quoting Rabbi Mayer. 998 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,720 So he said to him why the rabbi asked Elijah and Elijah says 999 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,880 said to him because he learned traditions from the mouth of 1000 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,880 Akher. So again, this is kind of 1001 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,920 recapitulating the whole question. 1002 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:26,240 Again, it it, you know, is Alisha Benabuya because he 1003 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,000 sinned and therefore lost his share in the World to come, is 1004 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,160 he is his Torah somehow tainted? Is it corrupted? 1005 00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,960 And therefore did Reverend Mayer do the wrong thing by learning 1006 00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:42,360 Torah from ah, there. Now it's sort of a question that 1007 00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,960 we could ask, you know, again based on, you know, section two 1008 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:50,680 or three here where Reverend Mayer was, you know, going after 1009 00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,480 him trying to learn Torah. So we're problematizing that a 1010 00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,960 little bit here, even though we got an answer in four and 5:00, 1011 00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,560 we we want to actually reinforce this answer by raising the 1012 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,440 question again. Or maybe a kind of ancillary 1013 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,120 question. Well, what about the disciple? 1014 01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:06,320 And what about learning from him? 1015 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:10,400 So even if Alicia Menabuya is Torah ultimately prevails from 1016 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,400 him, you know, saves him, should the disciple learn from him? 1017 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:18,600 So it looks like no, because Hakadish Barkhlu is not reciting 1018 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,440 Rebbe Mayer's traditions, which is a kind of death for Rebbe 1019 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,600 Mayer. His Torah is not being passed 1020 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:29,560 on. He's not being quoted so. 1021 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,640 So the rabbi says to Elijah, So what? 1022 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,040 Rabbi Mayer found a pomegranate. He ate the inside and threw away 1023 01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,240 the peel. You know, he says, So what? 1024 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,360 Rabbi Mayer, he like a, like, you know, like a fruit, a 1025 01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,360 pomegranate. He took the Torah, the good 1026 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,840 stuff, and he discarded the heresy. 1027 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,360 If Alicia Benabuya was telling him anything wrong, he threw it 1028 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:57,520 away like the peel. So he knew how to keep the 1029 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,960 valuable Torah, and he knew to stay clear of any kind of 1030 01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:02,840 heresy. There are two powers in heaven, 1031 01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,000 whatever it was, that might have been problematic about a sinning 1032 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:11,640 sage. And now Elijah says again, he 1033 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,840 said to him. Now God says mayor, my son says 1034 01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:16,520 so. Immediately God starts quoting 1035 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,840 Ravi Mayor, you're right, you you actually can learn Torah, at 1036 01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,360 least in this way. And he. 1037 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,520 Quotes. Mayor in a Mishnah. 1038 01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,280 It's actually very, very rare to have a Mishnah quoted within a 1039 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,160 rabbinic story, but it's interesting we find it here. 1040 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,720 Sue came all the time, but Mishnah's pretty unusual. 1041 01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,240 We can have a like challenge for our audience. 1042 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,920 Can you find others? Other stories of this type, you 1043 01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:50,760 know there are a couple. OK, so may or my son says when a 1044 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,520 human being suffers, this is from Mishnah Sanhedrin, the 1045 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,280 Sheena. What expression does it say? 1046 01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,960 I'm light in my head, I'm light in my hand if I'm san, and so on 1047 01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,360 account of the blood of the wicked who are killed, How much 1048 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:02,840 so for the blood of the righteous that is. 1049 01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,200 Still, this is a very problematic Mishnah. 1050 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,360 Again, it's not totally clear what it means about the Sheena 1051 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:14,160 being light or pained. But basically the idea is that 1052 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,920 God has sympathy for human beings, even the wicked. 1053 01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:19,920 You know, even when wicked people are killed, you know, 1054 01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:24,200 we're all selling elohim. So God has, you know, is is 1055 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:29,480 pained about that. So, you know, here too, God 1056 01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,120 would be pained about Alicia or Mayor not getting their share in 1057 01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,760 the world to come. So ultimately, you know, Mayor 1058 01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,760 is rehabilitated here again, partially due to the thanks of 1059 01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,040 this Rabbi Rabba Bar of Shayla intervening on his behalf. 1060 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,760 But you know, because of this, we now learn that, yeah, you can 1061 01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:53,080 learn Torah from a problematic sage, from a sinning sage. 1062 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,400 Why, again, for the rabbis, Torah is that valuable? 1063 01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,320 Otherwise that Torah would be lost. 1064 01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,120 And we, you know, we had so precious. 1065 01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,760 It's like gold in that analogy. It's like the vessels of gold 1066 01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,400 and the vessels of glass. It is so precious we have to 1067 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,960 hang on to every all our Torah, no matter where we can get it. 1068 01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,040 And if there was a rabbi who happened to be a, you know, a 1069 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,520 sage who would then sin, we still can learn Torah from him. 1070 01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,600 So just like that, Torah will ultimately bear merit to the 1071 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:26,680 sage, so the disciples should be able to access it, OK? 1072 01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,000 Professor, Professor, what do you make of this? 1073 01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:38,280 That the Sages were so that they gave ultimate premacy to to the 1074 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:44,760 Torah even against sin as in the story, even against, you know, 1075 01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:50,680 heresy and sin Torah, still the are are always on top of there. 1076 01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,080 What do you make of this? Why do you think the Rabbis had 1077 01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:54,840 this? Well, the view. 1078 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:59,000 Well, you know it's that's what that's the heart of rabbinic 1079 01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:01,920 theology. Talmud, Torah, connected 1080 01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,480 Coulomb. You know, studying Torah is the 1081 01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,320 most important thing for the rabbis. 1082 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,800 It's more important than prayer. It's more important than all the 1083 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,840 meets vote. They see it as fundamental to 1084 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:14,800 literally to the structure of the universe. 1085 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,320 Without the study of Torah, the, you know, they say in other 1086 01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:19,920 sources the the the cosmos disintegrates. 1087 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:21,240 You know there's no point to the whole thing. 1088 01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:29,360 So it's a it's a it's a universe maintaining activity. 1089 01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,480 That's some we call it. We sometimes apply talk about 1090 01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,920 different religions that have these rituals that have to be 1091 01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,360 done to keep the the universe going. 1092 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,640 And the rabbis think that's what tort is. 1093 01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:40,640 They love it so much. You know they think it's so 1094 01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,920 valuable. So that that's the heart of 1095 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,520 rabbinic Judaism. I mean that that's that's how 1096 01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:53,880 they understand, you know, what? What God wants and and what? 1097 01:04:54,880 --> 01:05:01,760 And I think that it also shows how much they dearly loved the 1098 01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:06,360 Torah, meaning their love for the Torah, for for their 1099 01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:11,040 activities around the Torah with Darshanut and and and halacha. 1100 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:15,120 Their love seeps through through the story because they're 1101 01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:19,600 willing to entertain it against, you know, evil and heresy. 1102 01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:23,880 And you know, for them, it's like you could see that, you 1103 01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:28,840 know it it wasn't just something they they did, It was something 1104 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:33,920 that they lived, yeah, that they just saw as life. 100% And here 1105 01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:39,160 they're they're exploring just, you know how powerful it is and 1106 01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,200 whether you can either lose it or its merits. 1107 01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,360 All right, we'll wrap it up quickly because we're almost 1108 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:44,600 done. Just to show you again, you 1109 01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,920 know, this nice structure. Remember in this scene, the last 1110 01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:52,760 scene, you have Elijah. He's another supernatural 1111 01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:54,600 figure. Remember the first scene we had 1112 01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:58,880 Metatron. So we have a kind of angelic 1113 01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,400 figure in both. In the first scene, Akher was 1114 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,120 rejected by God and God's servant Metatron. 1115 01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,880 Metatron burnt out Alicia's merits. 1116 01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,280 In the last scene, the Torah of Mayer, who learned Torah from 1117 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:16,520 Akher is accepted by God, who quotes this Mishnah ultimately 1118 01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,880 in his name and by God's servant Elijah. 1119 01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:22,520 So it's a kind of reversal of that first scene. 1120 01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,960 A nice parallel, but taken to the next question. 1121 01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,280 Not Ahir's rejection, but the Torah of Ahir's rejection, 1122 01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,720 right? The Torah of Ahir is not 1123 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:36,320 rejected anymore. It is accepted as being part of 1124 01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:40,440 Meyer's Torah. Now in the sections I just 1125 01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:43,080 skipped, basically they just asked that same question that we 1126 01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,440 just answered in the narrative in section one. 1127 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:50,160 That is, could a disciple learn Torah from a heretical or 1128 01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:53,760 tainted or sinning master? So here you could see in Section 1129 01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,520 3 it follows this section with the daughter and Rabbi and Nasi 1130 01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,720 that we read a minute ago. How did Rabbi Mayer learn Torah 1131 01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,800 from Akhir? Did not rob Abar Khanna say 1132 01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:05,400 that? Rabbi Oakland said what is the 1133 01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,960 meaning of for the lips of a priest God knowledge and men 1134 01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,440 seek rulings from his mouth for he is a malach. 1135 01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,720 Interesting we had that a couple earlier. 1136 01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,680 Master is similar to a malach of the Lord of hosts. 1137 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,000 Then they should seek Torah from his mouth and if not, do not 1138 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,240 seek Torah from his mouth. Only learn from a pious rabbi 1139 01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,320 only. Only learn from a rabbi who's a 1140 01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,640 messenger. You know of God, someone who's 1141 01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:31,920 doing God's bidding. So you can see this is this is 1142 01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:35,040 what we call a kind of non narrative comment or question. 1143 01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:36,840 It's not a part of the story itself. 1144 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:39,760 It doesn't advance the plot, it's asking about the plot. 1145 01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,760 How did Rabbi had to Remi Mayer up there learn Torah from Akher? 1146 01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,520 And again, you know it's a beautiful structure because this 1147 01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:51,320 is 3 prime parallel to where Mayer was learning Torah from 1148 01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:56,840 Akher in the three dialogues between them and we get 3 1149 01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:01,560 answers, Rach Lucich said. Remi Mayer found a verse and. 1150 01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,040 Expounded it. Incline your ear and listen to 1151 01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:07,280 the words of the sages. Pay attention to my wisdom. 1152 01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,080 It does not say to their wisdom, but to my wisdom. 1153 01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,040 In other words, you could learn the Torah from them because 1154 01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,880 you're really learning God's wisdom. 1155 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,520 You're not learning the sages wisdom. 1156 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:19,840 Their Torah is OK, it doesn't get corrupted. 1157 01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,279 Rabbi Kanina said from here, take heed daughter, and note 1158 01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:25,200 incline your ear. Forget your people in your 1159 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:33,960 father's house. In other words, you can take 1160 01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:36,439 heed and incline. Your ear to the good stuff. 1161 01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:40,760 But forget your father's house, that is, forget the sin or any 1162 01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,640 bad stuff. And and then again, there's 1163 01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,600 another little comment here we're not going to worry about. 1164 01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:50,840 And when Remy, when Rob Dimmie came up from Eretz Israel, he 1165 01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,319 said, they say in the West, eat the date and throw the people 1166 01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:55,840 away. You know, take the Torah, the 1167 01:08:55,840 --> 01:09:00,200 good stuff and throw the bad stuff, the heresy or something 1168 01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,319 problematic that he's teaching you away. 1169 01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:07,560 It's basically what Robber of Shaila said in the story. 1170 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:10,680 So what Reverend Mayor found a Pam around it? 1171 01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:12,359 He ate the inside and threw the peel away? 1172 01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:13,359 Right. Threw away the peel. 1173 01:09:13,359 --> 01:09:17,000 Same answer. Tommy is able to separate out 1174 01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,800 the valuable Torah from any kind of heresies. 1175 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,680 He's not going to get corrupted, not going to get confused, and 1176 01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,960 so on. And then we have another kind of 1177 01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:30,439 tradition thrown in here, again related to the same question Rob 1178 01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:34,240 expounded What is written? I went down to the nut Grove to 1179 01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,720 see the budding of the veil, get a kind of puzzling verse in the 1180 01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,000 Song of Songs. Why are the words of Torah 1181 01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:44,080 compared to a nut to tell you that just as a nut, even though 1182 01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:47,040 it's dirty with mud and filth, it's inside, it's not soiled. 1183 01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:51,000 So to a sage, even though he sins, his Torah is not soiled. 1184 01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:54,680 OK, so basically the same. Answer There could be a. 1185 01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:58,720 Sage who goes astray. But the Torah is going to be 1186 01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,160 pure. It won't be tainted, it won't be 1187 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:03,600 corrupt. And therefore a disciple could 1188 01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:08,800 learn it, as we see in the last section, Rabbi Mayer learning 1189 01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:10,640 Alicia's Torres ultimately defended. 1190 01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:15,800 So you know, I think the Boggly, the Boggly is a sophisticated 1191 01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:16,920 text. We know that. 1192 01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,920 And it's it's not giving us easy answers. 1193 01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:25,360 So it's concerned. About certain issues about. 1194 01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:30,840 Learning Torah from A from a, a, a rebbe, you know, a master 1195 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,520 who's who's violating certain things or espousing certain 1196 01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:38,240 heretical views. But ultimately, you know, I 1197 01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:42,880 think it gives an answer that follows pretty logically from 1198 01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:44,560 the answer. The first question, you know, 1199 01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,320 does the Torah of the sinning sage ultimately save him and 1200 01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,680 prevail and have enduring and inviolable merits? 1201 01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:53,280 Yes, it did. It does. 1202 01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:57,440 Well, then you, a Ptolemy, should be able to access that 1203 01:10:57,440 --> 01:11:02,040 Torah, learn that Torah and just separate it from the from the 1204 01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:06,160 heresy or the problematic ideas. Because that Torah is so 1205 01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:08,840 valuable and we want him to learn it. 1206 01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:13,800 And you know, in that way the Torah is preserved and passed 1207 01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,720 down. But but it's not easy, right? 1208 01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:18,280 The Bible, he's not saying this is simple. 1209 01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:20,280 It's it's dialectical a little bit. 1210 01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,600 It's going back and forth. It's raising problems with it. 1211 01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:28,720 How could mayor do this? At first, in fact, Ravi Hooda 1212 01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:34,040 Nasi rejects Akhir's daughter In First Elijah says that God is 1213 01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,760 not quoting Ravi Mayor. So again, you know it it takes 1214 01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:39,360 some work to get to this position. 1215 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:43,160 But I think ultimately the Bhavli has given us a pretty 1216 01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:47,680 clear answer of what the Bhavli rabbis think by constructing 1217 01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:49,120 this. This figure of Alisha. 1218 01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,840 Menabuya, like you asked at the beginning, to answer a question 1219 01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:54,760 of concern to them. The ultimate power of Torah. 1220 01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:59,360 The ultimate, you know. Merits you would get for 1221 01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:00,120 studying. Torah. 1222 01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,160 Whatever else happens in the meantime, it's almost like they 1223 01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,480 want to tread lightly on the. Subject. 1224 01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:08,320 But they want to make sure that at the end you have no doubt as 1225 01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:11,520 to what their position is. Yeah, that's that's quite they 1226 01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:13,600 want they. Want you to know it's not simple 1227 01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:18,640 and it's tricky, but ultimately this is where the the the chips 1228 01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:22,240 are going to fall, you know? This is so fascinating now. 1229 01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:25,040 I'm going to be. Honest, I do not remember it 1230 01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,600 right now because it's been a while since our previous 1231 01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:31,720 podcast. I don't remember exactly the 1232 01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:36,920 Yuushalmi's total vision. Are you able to just maybe just 1233 01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,800 really quickly tell us just the overall picture of what the 1234 01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:43,320 Yuushalmi was aimed at and how it different? 1235 01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:47,840 It's different from this whole unpacking of the Babli. 1236 01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,320 Well, the Urshami has a certain amount of. 1237 01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,560 Overlap with the Bob Lee, but it's also a little different. 1238 01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,160 First of all, in Urshami, remember there were really two 1239 01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:00,280 separate stories. There was one that was just 1240 01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:03,760 trying to interpret the Tosefta and that portrayed Alicia in 1241 01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:07,960 very, very negative lights, a Sinner, a killer and 1242 01:13:08,440 --> 01:13:12,520 collaborated with the Romans. And then a new story started 1243 01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:16,400 which was a little different, and that the second story was 1244 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,600 more similar to the Bodley. It also tried to construct a 1245 01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:25,880 figure of a of a sinning sage. The Yersami though didn't have 1246 01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:28,880 the whole Metatron business. It went about constructing it 1247 01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:30,720 differently and in multiple ways. 1248 01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:35,840 His father had a bad intention, his mother inhaled idolatry. 1249 01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:41,000 He had a spiritual crisis with the Saadi Klaralo you know, so 1250 01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:43,280 it it it also is working very hard. 1251 01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:46,440 In a way, the bodily solution was much more elegant with 1252 01:13:46,440 --> 01:13:49,880 Metatron to figure out how you could get someone to lose their 1253 01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:53,120 scooyote, their merits, and therefore be stuck and not get a 1254 01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:57,120 llama buck. But Yerushalmi got to that .2. 1255 01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:04,880 Ultimately their you know, Alisha Benabuya rode his horse 1256 01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:07,240 and had that same horse riding scene, but it was outside the 1257 01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,160 temple on Yom Kippur. So it was really an act of 1258 01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:14,920 terrible rebellion and that's when the verse said you know you 1259 01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:19,560 can't repent anymore, so. It was. 1260 01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:21,680 You can see the parallel in the Bhavli. 1261 01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,720 It moved that the Bhavli did it to the Heavenly temple and to 1262 01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:29,440 the Metatron episode, but it it the Yoshami came to that same 1263 01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:32,720 point. Now we have a sage who's a great 1264 01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:37,320 master of Torah and Yoshami too. Alicia Benabuya knows more Torah 1265 01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,200 than mayor. He remembered traditions that 1266 01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,320 mayor had lost, you know the Cuban traditions. 1267 01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:49,080 And ultimately when when he died, he is able to be redeemed. 1268 01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:52,920 At first smoke comes on his grave, but ultimately it is 1269 01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:55,440 extinguished. So the Yoshami comes really to 1270 01:14:55,440 --> 01:14:59,120 the same answer is the Bob Lee, although it goes about it in 1271 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,320 different ways and it doesn't really get into the whole thing 1272 01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,400 about the Torah of Alicia and Reverend Mayer, you know, in 1273 01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,360 quite the same way. OK. 1274 01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:13,760 This is absolutely fascinating and eye opening and important. 1275 01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:19,160 And you know, I wonder. I wonder. 1276 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:25,800 How many agadot? That you've gone through, 1277 01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,240 because I'm sure you've gone probably all of them. 1278 01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:34,840 How many times do you see Agadot as structured so neatly in a 1279 01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:38,720 literary unit with with chiasms? How often do you come across 1280 01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:40,880 that? Yeah, I mean you find it 1281 01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:43,800 surprisingly. Often, I mean that a lot of the 1282 01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:47,520 rabbinic stories have these very, very clear structures. 1283 01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:49,920 They're not all chiasmic. I mean chiasms are. 1284 01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:54,560 They're not uncommon. You find them, but you sometimes 1285 01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:59,080 find more, you know, tripartite structure like we do in in in 1286 01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:01,200 children's stories like Goldilocks, right. 1287 01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:03,520 You know, too hot, too cold, just right. 1288 01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:06,200 You know, often you have the kind that's very common and 1289 01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,880 that's common in folklore and that's like across the world, 1290 01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,040 you know, that's so you have three, you have sometimes seven 1291 01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:17,360 part structures, can have two-part structures, but you 1292 01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:19,640 know, in. 9 out of 10 stories I would. 1293 01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:22,760 Say there is a deliberate structure some sometimes you 1294 01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:24,840 just can't figure out the structure and it looks like the 1295 01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,160 story is doesn't hang together well and who knows what 1296 01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:31,760 happened. But in in most cases you know 1297 01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:35,680 you you should pay attention to the structure and and try to see 1298 01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:38,040 how the parts then relate to each other. 1299 01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:41,800 Amazing. Amazing, amazing. 1300 01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:43,400 Thank you so much this was. Really. 1301 01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:46,840 Very enjoyable. All right. 1302 01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:48,080 Well. Thank you for having me. 1303 01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:51,160 And. Yeah, yeah. 1304 01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:54,160 I almost wish there was more to this. 1305 01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,200 Story 'cause I could, I could do this for more hours. 1306 01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:58,960 So yeah, so I mean, there's a lot more. 1307 01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:01,240 I didn't go into everything. You know, like I said, you could 1308 01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:03,200 look at Alon Goshen Goldstein's book. 1309 01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:06,160 You could look at the chapter in my some some of these stories or 1310 01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:09,960 in the article like have it on my website and maybe we'll find 1311 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:14,440 a way to get this text or source sheet connected to the YouTube 1312 01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:17,040 video so the audience can have it. 1313 01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,360 Although I guess you could always access this on Safaria 1314 01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:21,240 too. So anyway, yeah that would be 1315 01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:23,240 great, that would be great. And you Also you. 1316 01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:26,760 In the beginning you mentioned that the dissertation that you 1317 01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:30,040 did on the Sukkot, why Sukkot and that all? 1318 01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:31,680 Yeah. So that that was published as a 1319 01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:34,480 book called the. The history of Sukkot in the 1320 01:17:34,480 --> 01:17:36,480 Second Temple in rabbinic periods. 1321 01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:39,920 So the dissertation was. Written into. 1322 01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:43,240 You know, I revised it and published it and so is it in 1323 01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:45,520 print? I think it is in print. 1324 01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:46,720 Still, I think you can get it on. 1325 01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:50,000 Amazon. But if not, they're used copies 1326 01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,560 all over the place. OK, cool. 1327 01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:52,960 OK, very good. Very good. 1328 01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:56,080 OK, great. Thank you so much. 1329 01:17:57,080 --> 01:18:01,000 You are you mentioned to us off camera that you are working on 1330 01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,680 another book. So we hopefully we'll, we, we 1331 01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,640 would love to have you on for that new book. 1332 01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:09,240 God willing. Yeah. 1333 01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:10,640 So that book is going to be called. 1334 01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:11,560 How? How To? 1335 01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:17,200 Read a comedic story and yeah, when that comes out, we will. 1336 01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,160 We'll talk about it. Great 'cause we never like to 1337 01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:21,880 say goodbye in this podcast. We. 1338 01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:26,040 We expect the constant. Thank you so much, Professor. 1339 01:18:26,440 --> 01:18:29,880 We know your time is valuable. We appreciate it and we hope 1340 01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:33,800 that the audience gains a lot from this three-part series that 1341 01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:36,160 we've put out. And you know hopefully we'll it 1342 01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:38,280 will it will resonate well. OK. 1343 01:18:38,440 --> 01:18:41,680 And then again thank you for. Having me and thank you for all 1344 01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:46,360 you do in in disseminating Torah and and making these videos and 1345 01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:49,320 making it accessible. So thank you. 1346 01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:50,560 Thank you. Yes, Sir. 1347 01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:51,320 Cool. Thank you. 1348 01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:58,920 Yeah. Hey, guys. 1349 01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:00,480 Thanks so much for tuning into the Judas. 1350 01:19:00,480 --> 01:19:03,600 And Demystified Podcast. We really appreciate all your 1351 01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:07,480 support and your feedback. If you want to help us grow the 1352 01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:09,520 podcast, keep spreading the word. 1353 01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,480 Share with your friends, family, or whoever you think would be 1354 01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:16,240 interested. We also opened a Patreon so you 1355 01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:18,880 can become a patron. Contribute any small amount 1356 01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,560 you'd like, which would really help us grow the show. 1357 01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:28,960 Our Patreon is www.patreon.com/judaism. 1358 01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:32,720 Pretty easy to remember. Thank you again and we hope to 1359 01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:34,520 keep putting out great shows for you guys. 1360 01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:46,280 Before we go, we want to thank our Patreon supporters. 1361 01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:50,240 By name, those are the supporters that are helping make 1362 01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:53,520 this show happen. Because frankly, Benci and I are 1363 01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:56,320 full time workers who don't really have so much time on our 1364 01:19:56,320 --> 01:20:00,520 hands because we have families, we have kids, and it's just a 1365 01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:03,280 passion project that got way bigger than we expected. 1366 01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:07,240 So we're dedicating more time to this and obviously our 1367 01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:09,760 production value up until this point hasn't been great 1368 01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,160 considering that we film this in Benzie's basement using a green 1369 01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:18,000 screen and a crappy little microphone and not such great 1370 01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:20,920 equipment to be honest, I'm sure you all realize that. 1371 01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:26,480 So we are hoping to up our quality and get better equipment 1372 01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:30,480 and part of that process is going to be due to you guys, the 1373 01:20:30,480 --> 01:20:34,360 listeners and supporters. If you go to our Patreon page, 1374 01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:39,400 patreon.com/judaism, you will see all the different tiers of 1375 01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:41,400 ways you can help us out. So first of all, we want to 1376 01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:45,840 thank our super patron Jordan Carmeli, our platinum patron 1377 01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:50,560 Craig Gordon, our Gold patrons David Haye, Abram, Khayev, Laser 1378 01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:56,040 Cohen, Travis Kruger, Vasily Volkov, Silver patrons, Ellen 1379 01:20:56,040 --> 01:21:00,480 Fleischer, Daniel Maximov, Rabbi Penny Rosenthal, and Jeffrey 1380 01:21:00,480 --> 01:21:02,880 Wasserman. Thank you all for supporting the 1381 01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:05,640 show and we hope you guys enjoy.