1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,560 Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,200 Torah related topics with our esteemed guests. 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,560 By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,000 addressed elsewhere, we aim to shed light on important issues 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,600 and inspire a return to the fundamentals. 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:33,800 Enjoy the show. Thank you, Rabbi Yossi Levine, 8 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:35,640 if I'm pronouncing that correctly. 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,320 Very happy to have you on the podcast. 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,280 Welcome to the Judean Demystified podcast. 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,680 Before you begin, I'd usually like to ask our guests what you 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:45,920 know a little bit about yourself. 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,240 Tell us a little about your background and also what drew 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,720 you to writing the book on Khansvi. 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,360 Sure. Thank you so much for for having 16 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,280 me. It's a pleasure and an honor to 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,240 be with you. So I grew up in Los Angeles. 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,240 I've been living in the New York area for the better part of the 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,000 last 30 years. I did my undergrad at Columbia 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,880 Smech at Michiba University and my PhD at the Barnard Rebel 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,760 Graduate School. By day, I'm a rabbi. 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,880 I work at shul here on the Upper West Side called the Jewish 23 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,480 Center. I've been here for about the 24 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:30,120 past 20 years or so, and on the side I like to dabble in 25 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:34,400 academia. So my area is early modern 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,320 European Jewish history, and I took an interest that early on 27 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:47,160 in my scholarly studies in Hahansvi, Ashkenazi. 28 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:53,360 So maybe I'll just do a quick bio of Hahansvi to kind of 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Orient the listeners and let everyone know sort of when and 30 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,440 and where we are. Hakansi Ashkenazi was born in 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:09,600 Moravia, we think in around 1658, and he's coming of age in 32 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,160 a very kind of fraught time. So you'll know that this is 33 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:20,000 right in the aftermath of the Khamelnitsky massacres 16481649 34 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,920 and Chapditesvi shows up on the scene and announces that he's 35 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:30,240 Mashiach in 1665. He apostatizes in 1666 and dies 36 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,640 in 1676. So that story is looming large 37 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:38,440 in the early years of Khansi. You think about what it means to 38 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,520 be a kid right when this story is is unfolding. 39 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,840 So Khansi is a little bit of a, of a mystery. 40 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:54,160 He comes from Ashkenazic stock. He has deep roots in, in 41 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,240 Ashkenaz. And probably because so many of 42 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,480 the centers of Ashkenazic learning were decimated of the 43 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,600 course of the 30 years war and the Khamonitsky massacres and so 44 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,080 many Ashkenazic Jews were refugees were dislocated. 45 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,680 So his parents actually sent him to train and to learn in 46 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,160 Yeshibos in the Ottoman Empire in in Salonika in 47 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:24,080 Constantinople. And he becomes quite experts in 48 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,400 in Spartic culture in Spartacala Khan. 49 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:33,680 We're happy to return to that issue later on if it's of if 50 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,600 it's of interest. He marries. 51 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,680 He's living in present day Budapest in the 1680s and in 52 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:47,280 1686 there's a a tragedy for his family and the life altering 53 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:52,280 event for the Jews of Budapest. Budapest had been in control of 54 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,360 the the Ottomans for for many years and now the Habsburg 55 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Empire attacks, there's a siege, the siege of Budapest and the 56 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,160 Jewish community is is in shambles as a as a result. 57 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,720 And it's really the last time for some period that there's a 58 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,360 normative Jewish community in in Budapest. 59 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,200 Jews are taken captive, including Khansvi's parents. 60 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,000 Tragically, his wife and young daughter are killed in that 61 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,680 siege and Hachamsvi has to flee. He miraculously survives and 62 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,720 makes it out as a refugee. He spends a little time in 63 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,280 Sarajevo ministering to a Sephardic community, and then 64 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,240 spends really the next 20 or so years in the triple community of 65 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,320 Altina, Hamburg, Vonnsbeck. He marries the daughter-in-law 66 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,560 of the chief rabbi and the daughter of the chief rabbi. 67 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,920 Rather becomes the son-in-law of the chief rabbi and builds a 68 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,480 family. And he's learning in a private 69 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,120 Cole. It's called the cloys. 70 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:57,760 It takes on a little bit more of an official position after his 71 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,080 father-in-law passes away. It's a quiet time in his life, 72 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:07,920 1690 to about 171710. He's learning, studying, 73 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,920 teaching, writing and he becomes known as an important to 74 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,000 halachic figure and a lot of the material that we have from 75 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,920 Khansvi's career and has rabbinic career date from this 76 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,480 time period. He's writing Truvos, he's 77 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:31,520 writing response to communities all over, all over Europe. 1710 78 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,920 he's called to Amsterdam and he becomes the Ashkenazic chief 79 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,240 rabbi of of Amsterdam. There's a very prominent Spartic 80 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,400 community in Amsterdam at the time and growing Ashkenazic 81 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,640 community. He's only in that position for a 82 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,720 short amount of time, 3-4 years. In 1714 we could talk about why 83 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,960 he's basically forced to leave Amsterdam and he never holds 84 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,920 much of A rabbinic position after that. 85 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,720 He's in Poland for a few years and the very end of his life in 86 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,560 1718 for just a few months, he becomes the chief rabbi of 87 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,680 Lehmberg, the the community of Levov. 88 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,480 And he dies in in 1718. So to answer your question and 89 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,440 what drew me to, to Fukhansvi, I'd say a couple things. 90 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,280 One is he's kind of a mystery of a guy, right? 91 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:24,680 Who's this Ashkenazi guy? He has a Sephardic, Sephardic 92 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,600 name. Why can't he hold down a 93 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,160 position in the community for for very long? 94 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,560 His Truvos, If you read his his Truvos, he speaks with such 95 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:40,480 independence and such confidence. 96 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,360 And you know, it's a very, very kind of rare combination to have 97 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,360 someone who's both. You've got top tier Posek and 98 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,680 top tier Tammich Hacham that everybody knows in the base 99 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:58,400 Madrich and is known among scholars as being a very 100 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:03,440 important person for the kind of political controversies in which 101 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,840 in which he was involved. So, you know, who's this man? 102 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:10,920 Can we, can we unpack the story here? 103 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,960 Can we solve the solve the mystery? 104 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,040 And I'll just say that, you know, controversy makes for good 105 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,240 copy when people lead quiet lives. 106 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,000 So there's not often that much to explore and to write about. 107 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,320 But when people are always in the middle of a Mahlochis, so 108 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:37,280 that that can be very alluring and sometimes very illuminating. 109 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,920 Yep. The it's it's not every day you 110 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,000 have someone called Sri Ashkenazi. 111 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,000 The it's a he he was also in in your book, you you write a lot 112 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,480 about all the different political things and that he had 113 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,800 to deal with in his true vote. It's like so wide-ranging. 114 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,320 And we hope that with this podcast, people will get the 115 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:06,640 book and read more about it before we get into the in depth 116 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,600 into the Hachamsvi. Your book is not only about 117 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,040 Khanswi. Your book also offers a 118 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,400 comprehensive study of the early modern rabbinic period, going 119 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,320 beyond a simple biography. By analyzing the tishuvot of 120 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,720 that era, you provide valuable insights into Jewish life and 121 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,280 its rabbinic context. Can you elaborate on the 122 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,200 significance of Tishuvot in shaping our historical Jewish 123 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,919 consciousness beyond their Hellenic importance? 124 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,440 Yeah. So historians, particularly in 125 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:44,600 the in the 20th century, maybe most notably Yaakov Katz, were 126 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:50,840 of the mind that Truvos really provide a very important window 127 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:59,000 onto their historic contexts. And not every Truva is a window 128 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:05,120 onto historic context, but sometimes you can really find 129 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:10,800 find your way in to intellectual history and cultural history and 130 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,400 political history through through Chubos. 131 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,680 And I'm very taken by this, by this line of by this line of 132 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:23,320 thought. And it was sort of my working 133 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,400 assumption as I worked on this this project. 134 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,600 It was sort of my working assumption that when you're 135 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,520 looking at a chuva, you're really only looking at one small 136 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:41,000 aspect of a larger story, even in the simplest case of a chuva. 137 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,000 So what are you seeing? Did you see the the question? 138 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,320 Sometimes it's recorded, sometimes it's recorded in an 139 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,800 edited way, sometimes it's not recorded at all. 140 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,560 You see the answer and then, well, what happens after that? 141 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,320 How was the answer received? Did anyone implement the answer? 142 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:07,680 Did it start a controversy? Was it the beginning of a 143 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:10,840 further exchange? And the deeper and deeper I dug, 144 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:16,560 the more often I found that very, very often, one Chuva was 145 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:22,360 actually just one node in a much, much larger conversation. 146 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,720 And part of my, part of my hope, part of my fantasy is that I 147 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,880 could sort of make this revelation known to just the 148 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,640 average folks in the base mattress who are learning Shyles 149 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:41,880 and Truvos without a lot of sensitivity to this, to this 150 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,680 reality, right? This notion that, you know, you 151 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:48,280 have one page in front of you, you have this amazing Truva, but 152 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,520 there's a whole story and you're just getting 1 chapter of it. 153 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,000 And what if we could try to fill in the blanks and know what the 154 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,120 questioner looked like, what they were thinking, what their 155 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,120 lives were like, what their context was about, what the 156 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,040 relationship to the rabbi was that they were writing to? 157 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,760 How did they choose to write to this rabbi? 158 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,640 What did the rabbi do when he got the question? 159 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,200 Did he consult? Did he start asking other 160 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,680 people? There's one case I found that I 161 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:20,240 referenced just quickly in the book where a community said they 162 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,400 said explicitly they asked this question, they sent it into the 163 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,480 rabbi and they said we're taking a survey. 164 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,360 Please let us know what you think of this issue. 165 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,160 So half the time, most of the time you don't get a formulation 166 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,040 like that. But the telling you this is just 167 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,080 one, you're just you're you're, you're only one part of a of a 168 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,560 much larger, much larger store. So my contention is that Shuvo's 169 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:51,840 in their fullest sense can be a window onto much, much larger, 170 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,640 much larger stories. I'll just give you one example, 171 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,480 'cause I was just looking at this recently. 172 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,560 There's a case from, it's like 17th, 18th century, I think in 173 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,880 Worms. And there's a question of how do 174 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,400 you dive in my rib on, on Mozi shops. 175 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,200 So what's the question? The question is who lights the 176 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,520 candle and when? So it's a catch 22. 177 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:25,760 So if Shabbos is not over yet so and you haven't admired when you 178 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,920 haven't said Abdullah, then you really shouldn't be lighting a 179 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,760 candle. It's Shabbos isn't over yet, but 180 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,720 you have to just go back and remember that if there were no 181 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:42,320 candles burning from before Shabbos, then it's dark outside 182 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:48,280 and there's no light to Dovan Meyer So and maybe have a kid do 183 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,520 it or the shamas, says Barham Abdul and coach the whole first 184 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,040 then runs ahead and lights it. And then everybody else could 185 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,000 stand by the like, who's thinking about right? 186 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,960 So you see the question, but there's a whole world here that 187 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,640 we don't think about. How do you Dovan Meyer von Mozi 188 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,760 Shabbos when you haven't set Abdullah and the shul is pitch 189 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,440 black 'cause there's no candles that are that are lit. 190 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,480 So just the most banal example of, you know, how the the 191 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,840 halachic literature actually actually opens up these much 192 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,600 larger issues. Fascinating. 193 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,760 Yeah, really amazing. We, we, we take it for granted 194 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,280 when when we're looking at history and just not 195 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,400 understanding the complexities of, of the issues that the 196 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,840 rabbi's at the time we're dealing with. 197 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,280 So it really gives us a really nice insight into what was going 198 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,320 on. SO1 fascinating aspect of your 199 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,840 book is its portrayal of Jewish communities during that period 200 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,800 and the relationship with rabbinic positions. 201 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,240 What are some intriguing dynamics you observed regarding 202 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,880 the political and cultural forces within these communities 203 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,320 and how did they impact the Hamsi's relationship with the 204 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,960 his congregation? So it's a great question and one 205 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:09,200 of one of kinds of the key components that distinguishes 206 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:14,680 the early modern period from the medieval period is what scholars 207 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,600 refer to as the professionalization of the of 208 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,040 the Ravenna. So I should say just sort of in 209 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,360 passing that, you know, one of the things that draws me to the 210 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,400 early modern period is actually started out with a stronger 211 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,600 interest in medieval Jewish history. 212 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,680 But you're so limited in medieval Jewish history because 213 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,800 there's just so, so many limitations on the, the sources 214 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,320 that we have available. So that's a, that's a embedded 215 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,800 challenge for anyone interested in medieval Jewish history. 216 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,560 Take for example, a Rashi. So we don't know too much about 217 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,120 Rashi's wrapping in, but I can tell you that Rashi was not 218 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,240 answerable to a board. And if somebody asks Rashi a 219 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,800 question, he felt completely free to give the answer that he 220 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,680 thought was the right answer. And like, he's the final 221 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,200 authority, He's Russian. You get to the early modern 222 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:18,240 period and the rabbis are now salaried employees of the 223 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,600 community, and it's not so different from the 21st century. 224 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,800 Really not. Rabbis have to look over their 225 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,960 rabbis have to look over their shoulder and wonder, how is my 226 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,600 answer? How is my statement? 227 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,960 How is my sermon going to be received? 228 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,400 And if it's not received well, I might be out of a job. 229 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,600 And if I'm out of a job, I might be out of a house 'cause I'm 230 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,200 living in a house that's owned by the community. 231 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,000 And then what's my family gonna eat and where are we gonna go? 232 00:15:52,640 --> 00:16:01,320 And so you start to see the the tensions between lay boards, lay 233 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,520 leaders on the one hand and rabbis on on the other. 234 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:12,000 So we don't have a book on this because it would be a very dry, 235 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,280 very dry book, but we have dozens and dozens of rabbinic 236 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,880 contracts from the early modern period. 237 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,960 I think they're fascinating because they tell us what the 238 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,120 priorities are for the parties involved. 239 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,000 And the community says it's very important for us that the rabbi 240 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,880 preach this number of times a year. 241 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,880 And the rabbi says, very important for me that the local 242 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,960 base medrish be filled with swarim and Talmadin, right? 243 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,640 So we get a sense of what what's important to, to the community 244 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,760 and what's important to the, to the rabbis. 245 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,840 So a number of scholars have pointed this out. 246 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,080 Again, coming back to Yaakov Katz, he says, you know, by and 247 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,400 large, the the boards and the rabbis work nicely together and 248 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,560 they figured out their respective areas of authority. 249 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:12,800 They respected those areas of authority and and it worked out 250 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,040 as a as a partnership. Where it gets interesting and 251 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,800 where we hear about it is when it stops working out OK, and the 252 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,599 lay leaders say, oh, no, you don't have authority to do that. 253 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:30,760 That's our turf where the rabbi says, stop right there. 254 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,840 You can't do that. I'm drawing the line right here. 255 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,680 I'm the final authority. And then there's and then 256 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,960 there's tension, then there's controversy and sometimes then 257 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,920 there are fireworks. And if you're and you're 258 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,920 relatively uncompromising and you're relatively confident 259 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,080 about your positions and you really believe what you believe, 260 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,000 and you're of a mind that says take it or leave it, let the 261 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,760 chips fall where they may. So that can make for difficult 262 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,480 relationships between the rabbi and and the community. 263 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,560 This was such a fascinating part of your book. 264 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:18,240 I really, really enjoyed it. It is, like you said, it's 265 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,560 almost like you feel that everything that we're going 266 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,720 through then is like mirrored today. 267 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,840 And it's so many ways. And it was very powerful how you 268 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,080 made the point that was he he he was uncompromised. 269 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,640 He he he compromised, but meaning to certain things like 270 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,160 he was he was his way or the highway. 271 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,680 And, you know, he had difficult relationships because of that 272 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,200 with the Shules. It's it's a fascinating chapter 273 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,200 in the book. And I highly suggest, you know, 274 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,480 that that that people should should, should look into. 275 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,520 It's it's incredible. Yeah, all. 276 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,480 Right. You want to take the next 277 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:09,160 question. OK, so a pivotal chapter in your 278 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,480 book explores Khanswi's connection with the Swaradim and 279 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,520 his defense of certain Sefaradi attitudes towards Jewish law and 280 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,680 Minagim. Can you provide more insight 281 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,040 into this aspect of his life and work? 282 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,680 Sure. So maybe let me just back up and 283 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,920 provide just a drop of, you know, historic context and 284 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,600 again, thinking about some of the differences between the 285 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,800 medieval world, Again, these aren't, you know, hard and fast 286 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,080 rules, but the medieval world on the one hand and the early 287 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,680 modern world on the other. So, you know, if you're an 288 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:47,800 Ashkenazic Jew living in France in the 13th century, how much 289 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:53,760 interaction do you have with Spartak Jews in in your 290 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,680 lifetime? So maybe France is a bad 291 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,800 example. You go over the Pyrenees and you 292 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,800 can get to you can get to Spain. But the further away that you 293 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:07,000 get between these communities, you know, the distances are, are 294 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,680 important and it's hard to traverse them. 295 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,200 And Ashkenaz is Ashkenaz and Sarad is is is Farad. 296 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,640 One of the the kind of defining qualities of the early modern 297 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,560 period is this sense of mobility. 298 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,080 Everyone and everything is, is on the move. 299 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,920 So where do you even begin the early modern period? 300 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:36,280 Most scholars would tell you, you know, 1492149715 hundred. 301 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,600 We're talking about a time in the aftermath of the 302 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,680 dislocation, the expulsion of the world's most populous Jewish 303 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,120 community. So all of Sfarad is on the move. 304 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,600 And then you start talking about what's going on in the 16th and 305 00:20:53,600 --> 00:21:00,080 17th centuries and the Ashkenazi communities are being expelled 306 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,880 and dislocated and there's a massacre and there's a Bagram 307 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,920 and they have to run and, and they're everywhere. 308 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,720 So what starts to happen? Certainly with much more 309 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,760 frequency than ever happened in the early in the medieval period 310 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,840 is that you start to have locations where you have 311 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,080 Ashkenazic and Sephardic communities living side by side. 312 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:32,440 So in Venice and in Hamburg and in London and in Amster, right 313 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,800 on down this list, you have Ashkenazic communities and 314 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,960 Sephardic communities. And they're they're right there. 315 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,480 They're living in the same, they're living in the same city. 316 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,080 So there's a kind of open question, OK, now we got it. 317 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,920 There's a sort of communization. What was the interaction like? 318 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,360 Did they talk to each other? Did they marry each other? 319 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,360 Did they patronize the same butcher shops? 320 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,600 Like what was the what was the relationship? 321 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,280 What was it like? And this is a complex, this is a 322 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,320 complex question and the different answers for different 323 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,880 moments and for different for different communities. 324 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:20,080 But as a general matter, the Sephardic community tended to 325 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:26,480 put up walls like don't, don't try to you Ashkenazim, don't try 326 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,000 to come into our, our community often they like, we're here 327 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,280 first. You take the case of Amsterdam, 328 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,840 which is important, important example. 329 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:44,040 So the Spartan got there first. They're all, all kinds of family 330 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,480 connections and business connections based on the, you 331 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:54,280 know, Iberian expulsions. They're very successful in, in 332 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,560 commerce. They make it, they make it big, 333 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,840 they establish themselves and then the Ashkenazim come in as 334 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,440 refugees, penniless. And they're like in totally 335 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,280 different, totally different worlds. 336 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,600 So in some communities, the Sparta community would say, we, 337 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,440 there's a band, you're not allowed. 338 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,240 No member of our community is allowed to and then fill in the 339 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,640 blank not allowed to marry an Ashkenazic Jew, not allowed to, 340 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:30,280 you know, patronize their their community shops, not allowed to 341 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,560 adjudicate a case in front of a of a court. 342 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:39,320 That's not as far to all kinds of examples of, of rules that 343 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,680 that separate Ashkenaz from from Swarat. 344 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,920 So I would say as a general matter, the cultural borders are 345 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,600 quite are quite entrenched. They're not rock solid and 346 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,880 sometimes there is some integration, but very important 347 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,320 cultural boundaries at the same time. 348 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,280 I think there's a strong case to be made that the intellectual 349 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,680 boundaries are much less porous. OK. 350 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:09,360 What I mean by that at the very least is you have printed 351 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,600 printed books in the early modern period. 352 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,320 They're they're all over. Paper is much less expensive. 353 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,720 Books become much more affordable and you can have 354 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,040 Ashkenazim studying Spartic texts and you can have Spartim 355 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,600 studying Ashkenazic texts and there's intellectual exchange. 356 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,440 And then inevitably what happens is well, I'm an Ashkenazi living 357 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,640 in AI could write a letter to a Spartak rabbi and you know 358 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,120 another community. And then this starts to be an 359 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,840 exchange of an exchange of, of ideas. 360 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,200 So zooming back to zooming back into Hahansvi. 361 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:57,280 So Hahansvi was, was quite, was quite exceptional because it 362 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,520 tended to be that Ashkenazim sent their kids to Ashkenazi 363 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,280 yeshivas and Sparta kids sent their kids to Sparta families 364 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,920 sent their kids to Sparta yeshivas. 365 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,040 And their training was, was quite different. 366 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,520 Their experience was quite different. 367 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,720 Their cultural milieus were quite different. 368 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,000 But Hachansvi had this extraordinary background where 369 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,880 he really lived and was integrated into Sparta culture 370 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,720 for the first couple decades of of his life. 371 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,920 And so much so that he adopted the name Hachamsvi, which is 372 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,720 quite unusual, is not really another parallel. 373 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,240 There's no other Spartic, there's no other Ashkenazic 374 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,840 Posaic, you know, in the early modern period until Hacham 375 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,720 Bernays in the 19th century, you know, who goes by this title 376 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:45,000 Hacham? And it becomes a real point of 377 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,840 differentiation for, for Hahansvi. 378 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,880 His son Jakob Emdin even writes that when he came to Amsterdam, 379 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,080 this Fardim like adopted him and they, they treated him like one 380 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,520 of their own and they asked him their, they asked him their 381 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,840 questions. So Hahansvi actually was a, a 382 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:07,240 kind of unique figure in that he was able to bridge these two, 383 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,280 these two worlds. Now, were there like practical 384 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,520 consequences? So there's a short list of 385 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,640 practical consequences in his own, you know, Nusak Hatsvila, 386 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,640 there were aspects of the Sephardic Nusak that he that he 387 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,920 integrated. The sort of most famous almost 388 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:34,880 example is is kidneyos, right? So Ashkenazim don't need 389 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,680 kidneyos on, on, on Pesach and Khansvi didn't say because of my 390 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:46,240 exposure to the Sephardic world. But it is conspicuous that the 391 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,840 most vociferous advocate for the abolition of kidneyos in the 392 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,840 Ashkenazic world was Khansvi. He says didn't work like he 393 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,920 says, if if I had my way, I would have abolished the whole 394 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,720 the whole thing. But for whatever reason, like 395 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,280 his attempts to to abolish kidneyos were not were not 396 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,120 successful. But you get the impression like, 397 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,000 would someone who hadn't spent all those years in in Svartik, 398 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,920 you know, communities have come to the same conclusion? 399 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,920 I'm not sure. I think if I remember correctly 400 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,800 in your book, the main point of contention, or maybe not 401 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:32,360 contention, but the main point was that Ashkenazim seemed to 402 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,440 hold minhagim to almost a halachic level if I'm 403 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,120 remembering correctly what you were saying in the book. 404 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,520 So they hold minhagim to be basically at the level of 405 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,720 halacha, whereas the swahadim did not. 406 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,960 And Hakamtvi, when it came to minhagim, he kind of aligned 407 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,920 himself more with swahadim in that if the minhag is not rooted 408 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,080 in a, in a, in an actual halachic halachically viable 409 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,760 source, you know, he, he wasn't going to, he wasn't going to go 410 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,840 with it. Couldn't have said it better 411 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,120 myself. Yeah, I, I think it, there's 412 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:13,720 really, there's really a lot to to explore with respect to the 413 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,280 orientations of a Taminhag between and among the Spartan 414 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,880 men and Ashkenazin. And what I try to do in the book 415 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,320 is make some kind of contemporary comparisons. 416 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,680 Here's an Ashkenazik list, a classic Ashkenazik Posik. 417 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:34,600 You know the Habosiah here and you know he's 100 examples in 418 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,440 the habosiah here where there's a min hug and he says, I'm not 419 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,280 really sure, but we should do it anyway 'cause it's a min hug. 420 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,960 And Hamtzi says it's a min hug and it's actually not a good min 421 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,480 hug. So we should probably do a min 422 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,320 hug. And there are a number of times 423 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,400 where he, unlike Kitnios where he sort of isn't able to carry 424 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,440 it out to its conclusion. The number of of cases where 425 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,800 Hamtzi actually says like, no, that's not a that minhag's not 426 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,360 really well established, It's not well attested. 427 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,080 It wasn't rabbinically mandated. We should, you know, do away 428 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,680 with the minhag. OK. 429 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,600 All right. So you actually you just 430 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,360 mentioned of Yaakov Emdin as his son who's probably more well 431 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,280 known especially about his positions on Kabbalah. 432 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:29,120 But I'm interested in knowing how Hamsvi related to Kabbalah 433 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,680 and in what way does his attitude towards Kabbalah 434 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,520 manifest in his tissue vote? Yeah. 435 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,920 So that is that's a really big and important question. 436 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,680 And I'll back up to to say and obviously part of a much larger 437 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,560 conversation. I'm sure you've dealt with it on 438 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,560 other episodes of your of your podcast. 439 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,560 But you know, what's the authority of of the Zohar? 440 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,280 How do we understand the authorship of the of the Zohar? 441 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,680 Sir Jakob Emdin, you know, for instance, has a whole book on 442 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,360 the antiquity of the Zohar and how he makes a very strong case 443 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:13,160 that Shimon Bar Yokai was not, in fact, the author of the of 444 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,960 the Zohar. That doesn't mean the Zohar is 445 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,880 not important. It just means that it's written 446 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,840 at a date much later than, you know, some, some authorities 447 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,040 claim. So we have no evidence. 448 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,880 I just say that by way of of comparison, we have no evidence 449 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,880 that Rahan Svi was of that mind, right? 450 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,560 I have every reason to believe that Rahan Svi, like many of his 451 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,360 contemporaries, believed that Ruchiman Barrichai was the 452 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:50,200 author of the of the czar. That being said, he had a very 453 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:58,480 important argument against the popularization of the of the 454 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,240 Zohar. And a lot of this we have to 455 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:07,800 speculate, but probably comes back to Sabatianism and again, 456 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,320 part of a larger part of a larger topic. 457 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,080 But there was a strong sense. And again, remember, it's 458 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,760 decades old. The story of Sabadianism is, you 459 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,040 know, 1666 by the time we're talking about Khansvi and you 460 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,360 know, his adulthood in 17117 ten. 461 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,400 So the the story is from a while ago, and yet the story is still 462 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,840 live. It's still an important story 463 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,920 because there's a whole group and we don't know how widespread 464 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,720 it is, but there's a whole group of crypto Sabadians who have 465 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,920 gone underground but still very much believe that Shoptites Phi 466 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,760 is the Messiah. And I say this by way of 467 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,160 background, because so much of what fueled the fire of the 468 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,000 Sabadian movement was this attachment to Kabbalah. 469 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,520 And there was this sense among Hamsi and some of his 470 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:10,600 contemporaries that it was time to sort of put the lid back on 471 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,720 on Kabbalah. In some sense, it was 472 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,480 impossible. The the the genie was out of the 473 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,400 bottle. And in an age of print, like you 474 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,760 can't control the you can't control the press. 475 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,600 That being said, you could control what you could control. 476 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:32,120 So, and again, I tried to to do this by way of comparison, there 477 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,120 are contemporaries of Hamsvi who are just not really concerned 478 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,160 about this issue and they quote Kabbalah right and left in 479 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,720 discussions. And here's what the Schnar says 480 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,480 and here's what the Zohar says. And here's my conclusion. 481 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,280 And Hamsvi, even though he was quite knowledgeable by, we have 482 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,560 lots of evidence that he was quite knowledgeable, but 483 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,520 Kabbalah and as a personal matter, if you asked him, you 484 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,600 know, he would say that Kabbalah is, is very important and 485 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,560 factored into a lot of his life and a lot of his thinking. 486 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,760 That being said, when it came to his published works, he really 487 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,280 tried to limit the extent to which Kabbalah made it to the 488 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,520 made it to the four and one Shuva in particular. 489 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,800 He's quite he's quite explicit about the sense that he's like 490 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,760 you guys, there was a question that came up just to, you know, 491 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,160 put it in a more specific context. 492 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,120 Somebody wrote to him and said, you know, there's this debate. 493 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,480 What do you do when you get to shul, when you get to shul late? 494 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,280 Should you should you start from the beginning like the Zohar 495 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,800 says, or should you, you know, do like catch up and try to get 496 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,160 to Shmona Esrey by the time everyone is Dominic Shmona 497 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,600 Esrey. So he gets a little bit seaboard 498 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,040 and he sort of starts up by things like that's not what the 499 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:59,360 Zohar meant in the 1st place. And you know, like you, you guys 500 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,080 are, you know, asking me this question like stop spending your 501 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,600 time trying to learn the Zohar. Like we should be sticking to 502 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,000 the traditional, traditional sources. 503 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,000 That's how we should Orient. That's how we should Orient 504 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,360 ourselves. And that's how we should paskin, 505 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,520 paskin halacha. So I argue that this stance, the 506 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,600 sense that like we're trying to tamp it down, we're trying to 507 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,040 put it back in its back in its place. 508 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,880 We're worried about it being misread. 509 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,080 We're worrying about it being misused. 510 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:37,520 That that orientation kind of anticipates the stance of later 511 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,639 18th century rabbis who came along and said, you know, 512 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:48,920 something very similar, which is let's try to keep Kabbalah 513 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,239 within the province of the initiated and keep it out of the 514 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:58,640 hands of the masses. I know that was a lot. 515 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,760 I know that's one second. Sorry. 516 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,120 Do you hear me? I think I lost the connection 517 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,040 for a second. Yeah. 518 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,280 So, yeah. So I mean, I, I think what's 519 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,800 interesting is that one generation removed from that or 520 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,160 you know, his son's generation, you have, you have a situation 521 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,720 where you, you mentioned that there were these crypto 522 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,960 Sabatians or people accused of it, like Raviolitan Ebishitz, 523 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,960 the whole controversy with, with Raviolva Emden. 524 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:36,000 I wonder what happened between from his father's generation to 525 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,920 his generation where he felt the need to be more kind of 526 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,360 explosive in his response, I guess towards Kabbalah, even 527 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,440 though they were like kind of 1, you know, it was one generation 528 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,480 further from the Sabotea and controversy. 529 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,760 I'm just wondering if there's like any any answer to that? 530 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,440 So I'm not sure there is there is an answer to that. 531 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,360 I think part of the answer is the comes back to something we 532 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,280 were talking about a little earlier, which is just what is 533 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,800 the authority of the rabbis? So you can scream till you're 534 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,560 blue in the face that we should be doing XY or Z. 535 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:25,760 Is anybody listening? So are there, you know, if Hamsi 536 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,400 had his way, I don't think we would find, you know, 537 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:35,840 Kabbalistic books being printed in the in the 17 teens in the 538 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,920 1720s. And but they are being printed 539 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,080 right 'cause he's one person in one community with one audience. 540 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:50,480 And you know, this, this printing presses and other 541 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,400 authorities and people with other interests who maybe never 542 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,040 heard of Hafansvi or even if they have heard of him, don't 543 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,440 feel obliged to, you know, be beholden to his opinion. 544 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,120 Yeah, like you mentioned the genies out of the bottle or the 545 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,200 cat's out of the bag, it's impossible to put it back in. 546 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,600 So at at a certain point just got to accept reality like this 547 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,760 is what we have to deal with. So it's very, very interesting 548 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,920 what what takes place here. So and Bensi, you had one last 549 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,920 question before the. Last question, there was 550 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,280 something I remembered as you were talking about this from the 551 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:38,800 book regarding how Mishna, if yeah, you, you, you, you spoke 552 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,560 in the book about Mishna and how the printing press kind of 553 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,320 brought the consciousness of Mishna back to that time period. 554 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,600 Is it OK if off the cuff I can ask you to to elaborate on that 555 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,360 a little bit? Yeah, yeah. 556 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,800 So this is a big, this is a big topic which actually has not 557 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,160 been explore deeply. And you know, part of my hope 558 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,760 was that, you know, my dream is that I would spark more interest 559 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,920 in this topic and people could explore it, explore it further. 560 00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:14,640 But there is a sense and scholars have written about this 561 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,680 a little. There's a book called The 562 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,000 Mishnaic Moment, which is actually more interested in the 563 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,360 Christian interest in, in the Mishnah. 564 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,080 But it's a good title. And there is a sense that in the 565 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,480 early modern period, Mishnah is undergoing a renaissance. 566 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,280 Now, Mishna was always being learned, right? 567 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,240 I don't mean to say in before the early modern period, but you 568 00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:40,840 know, Jews weren't. So they were learning the 569 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,640 Mishnah. It's just that by and large they 570 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,320 were learning the Mishnah within the context of the Gemara, in 571 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,880 the context of the, the Talmudic, the Talmudic tradition 572 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,920 in the early modern period, we get an explosion of interest in 573 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,560 Mishnah qua Mishnah. So Mishnah commentaries are 574 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,560 booming. The printing of the Mishnah is 575 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,280 booming. The there's an explosion of 576 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,000 Mishnayos study groups. So Kabbalists are very 577 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,640 interested in, in the study of, in the study of Mishnah. 578 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,640 There's Hevras like, you know, we don't have too many Hevras 579 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,560 anymore, but we had like the Heva Kadisha is like our last 580 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,960 Hevra. But in the early modern period 581 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,000 there's a million Hevras. There was a Hevra, you know, 582 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,520 Bikrholem and a Hevra Shas. And so you start to see these 583 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,440 Hevros mishnayos everywhere. And you know, this concept we 584 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,720 have of learning mishnayos like Ilui Nishmas, you know, for 585 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,240 Schlossem or for Ayurtse. So that's everywhere in the 586 00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:50,040 early modern in the early modern period. 587 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:56,800 So I argued and I just did like a case study for one person for 588 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,840 one, for one post sake. I argued that and it's quite 589 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,000 surprising if you're not sensitive to this issue. 590 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,120 But if you go back to his Truvos, he mentions the Mishnah 591 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,760 in like almost half of his Truvos, right? 592 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,960 Which is and and and I tried to argue. 593 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,200 It's like there were times where just quote the and the Shah like 594 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,480 that. That's what we would expect. 595 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,120 18th century Posaic to be working with like, OK, it's the 596 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:31,640 tour and it's the and the and the he's like the Mishna's. 597 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,200 It's not the base. We're not like going through 598 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,600 from the beginning. This is a it's a chuva in the 599 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,720 it's like the last place you would expect. 600 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,120 It's like, no, no, he's like the Mishna says really we're 601 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,920 prosecuting for them. Like there's 1500 years of 602 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,800 intervening, you know, discourse here. 603 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:55,520 Like not he's not ignoring the intervening 1500 years, but like 604 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,240 he goes back to the Mishnah. He goes back to the Mishnah 605 00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:03,240 very, very often, right. And so my argument, and you 606 00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,440 could take it or leave it. Again, this is very limited and 607 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,800 I wish people would think about this in, you know, the larger 608 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,360 context among other postscript of the period. 609 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:18,200 But my argument is that Khansvi was kind of making a case that 610 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,960 the Mishnah really should be the source of our authorities. 611 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,400 Like he just go back to the basics, go back. 612 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,680 To the Mishnah. That's why it popped up in. 613 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,000 My the, the Kabbalah and you know, we were talking about this 614 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,720 a little before we went on live. It was like, people are so 615 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:36,760 interested in, you know, I'm historian so I'm not going to 616 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,640 talk about 202026, but Neil Jacidos and it's like it's a 617 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,600 post. Oh, OK, this is beautiful and 618 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,160 there's so much there. And let's learn a Mishnah. 619 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,360 He's peeling the onion back. He want, he wants, he wants 620 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:53,840 everyone to get back to the fundamentals. 621 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,480 Basically. That's like a subtle message. 622 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,560 Back to the fundamentals and it fits. 623 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,560 I'm not saying it's causative, but you know, this is the the 624 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,960 Renaissance like this is the the moment was like, let's go back 625 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,200 to the most important texts of our Massar. 626 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,240 So important, so important, and we should take that advice today 627 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,240 as well. So important. 628 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,080 Don't get me started, but you know, if I could, if I had my 629 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,400 druthers, like let's learn a puzzle. 630 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,760 Let's learn a rashi. Like that's the fundamentals. 631 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,120 And then there's plenty of time to, you know, learn. 632 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,920 Learn other things. To it's a it's an amazing, it's 633 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,080 an amazing insight into into into the Khanswi and we should 634 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:44,560 all learn from it and end the story with Khanswi, the Hyon 635 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,160 affair. Am I pronouncing that right, by 636 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,400 the way? Yeah, there's some debate about 637 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,720 how to pronounce it, but that's perfect. 638 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,760 OK, so if you can lead us through the Hyon Affair and, and 639 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,920 the fallout and, and everything to do with it. 640 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,440 Because we could do a whole episode on the. 641 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:03,640 Fair. So I'm, I'm going to do an 642 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,400 abridged, an abridged version and, and you tell me if there's 643 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,960 pieces here that you want to unpack further. 644 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,120 We're, we're happy to. OK. 645 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,560 So just to set the stage, Khansvi's Ashkenazic chief rabbi 646 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,960 of, of Amsterdam. The year is 1713. 647 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,920 There's two communities, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, the 648 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:31,080 Sephardic community, which is much older in Amsterdam, much 649 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,960 more venerable, much more successful. 650 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,640 The chief Rabbi, the Sephardic chief rabbi is a man called 651 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,960 Shlomo I alone. Shlomai alone is actually 652 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,280 aquarist. He actually has a shy list that 653 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,120 he asks that are published in, in Khansvi. 654 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,840 Amsterdam was the print capital of the of the universe, so 655 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,920 people were looking for vinic approbation. 656 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,480 Sometimes they'd come to Amsterdam, they'd get a Haskama 657 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,080 from Khansvi and from Ashkenazi chief rabbi and from Shlomoa, 658 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,040 the Sephardic chief rabbi. So sometimes you have both of 659 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:10,960 them side by side. 1713, two communities, Prahamsvi's 660 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,000 Ashkenazi community and Shlomo Ayalon's Svartik Svartik 661 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,520 community. And in to town walks a man 662 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,240 called Nachamya Arhyun. We don't know too much about 663 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:26,520 Nachamya Arhyun because most of what we know comes from him and 664 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,160 he's not the most credible, the most credible guy. 665 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,520 He has two books that he's interested in promoting that he 666 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,200 had published the year before in in Berlin. 667 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,040 The first book is a book called Deavere Nechemia. 668 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,920 And Deavere Nechemia is a book on the parsha. 669 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,640 And if you open it up and you read it, it's on 670 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,440 hebrewbooks.org. You can Google it. 671 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,600 It'll come right up on Hebrew books. 672 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,320 There's a couple of pieces there which are a little odd or a 673 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,800 little bizarre or a little unconventional, but it's a 674 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:07,240 perfectly kosher book on the, on the parsha from a guy who's 675 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,480 interested in Kabbalah and Kabbalistic readings of the, of 676 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:20,800 the time book #1 Debray Debray. And he comes with book #2 called 677 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:26,880 OS Leilochim, OK. And OS Leilochim is book of 678 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,760 theology and a book of book of of Kabbalah. 679 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:37,480 And both of the books are very well approbated. 680 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,760 And we could spend a long time talking about approbations in 681 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,600 this period just to give a quick thumbnail. 682 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,360 So copyrights are just sort of coming into their own. 683 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,800 If you publish a book in 1712 and you have to be worried that 684 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,080 somebody's gonna steal your intellectual property, what's to 685 00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:00,480 stop you from taking my book, republishing it and undercutting 686 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,760 me selling it for for a discount? 687 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,120 I worked so hard to put it together and what am I gonna do? 688 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,560 Suit. Like I have no recourse. 689 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,400 The best I could do is get Haskama from a rabbi that says I 690 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,640 hereby declare anybody who republishes book without 691 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,720 permission from the author within the next three years 5 or 692 00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:21,680 whatever the case is, as a theorem, they're gonna be 693 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,120 banned. We disallow in the strongest 694 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,080 possible could Listen or not listen. 695 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,720 That's like the best you could. OK, so Hascommos functioned as 696 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:33,160 copyrights and they functioned as endorsements. 697 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,160 The same way you go to the store. 698 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,640 I guess we don't really do that anymore in the 21st century. 699 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,880 But in the old days, you go to the bookstore and you look at 700 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,560 the back of the book and you know, maybe I don't know the 701 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,160 author, but I know the famous person who endorsed the book. 702 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,640 So maybe I'll buy the book because this person says it's 703 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,640 the best thing since since Lysberg. 704 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:00,160 So when Eremia Reyun did is he he got some of the greatest 705 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,080 rabbis of the generation to write approbations to his book 706 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,280 Zebra and Eremia. And if you actually go back and 707 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,760 read the approbations to Zebra and Eremia, it's a fun exercise. 708 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:17,000 You'll see that the approbators say the following One of the 709 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,040 first approbations is from David Oppenheim. 710 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,040 David Oppenheim would have been by far and away the most famous 711 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,880 rabbi of the generation. He was the chief rabbi of 712 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,680 Prague. He he was political. 713 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,040 You mentioned him a few times in the book. 714 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,800 Very important, very important person to be interested. 715 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,560 There's a wonderful book called Prince the Press by Joshua 716 00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:42,280 Zaplitsky, Yale University Press David Oppenheim gives us Gama to 717 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,640 the to the book and he has this great line. 718 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,920 He says, you know, I only read one page of the book, and I 719 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,200 really shouldn't give huskamma to a book that I only read one 720 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,240 page of. But people speak so highly about 721 00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:57,800 the author, I want to help him out. 722 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,800 I'm giving huskamma to the book. And then the next huskamba is 723 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:08,680 written by another prominent rabbi who says, you know, I was 724 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,720 really too busy to read any of the book. 725 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,800 But if David Oppenheim says this is a good book, I'm with him, 726 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,960 you know, OK. And you read the next Haskama 727 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,240 and he says this is not my area. I don't really know anything 728 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:26,080 about this topic. But you know, the two previous 729 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:31,880 rabbis, I'm with them. So you can imagine where this 730 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,560 is, where this is going. Nobody actually read the book. 731 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:40,240 They all give Haskama's to the book, then takes the Haskammas 732 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:45,960 that he received for book #1 and cuts and pastes them into book 733 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:52,240 #2 without the consent of the of the approbators. 734 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,960 It just so happens, to make a Long story short, that Nachemia 735 00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:02,760 Rayun is a Crypto Sabadian, and his book OS Le Lokem is the very 736 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:08,200 first time that a Crypto Sabadian had ever authored and 737 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:16,840 published, clearly nakedly, A Sabadian, A Sabadian book. 738 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,680 Is this book available Like is this? 739 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,760 Can you find the book somewhere? Hebrewhebrewbooks.org. 740 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:27,040 It's available 2 clicks. Osley Leukem. 741 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,120 Osley Leukem. Fascinating. 742 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:30,800 I don't know if they've corrected this, but last time I 743 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,320 checked the the Huskomos don't appear right the in the copy 744 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:36,840 that they have on hebrewbooks.org. 745 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,440 OK, because. Is he explicitly Sabatian in it 746 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,480 or is he? Yes, yes, explicitly. 747 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,720 OK, we'll come back to that. We'll come back to that in a 748 00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:48,520 second. So until 17 as well. 749 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:49,920 Theology. Book. 750 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,720 Yeah, yeah. So, so Sabatians had published 751 00:49:53,720 --> 00:49:57,680 books, but like, they did it in a very, you know, kinds of 752 00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,840 clever way. And there'd just be a coded 753 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,920 reference here or there. This is like overflowing. 754 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:12,200 Overflowing with what any normal reader would consider to be kind 755 00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,720 of kind of Harris. So he shows up with his books. 756 00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:19,000 There's a man called Moshe Haggis who's a good friend of 757 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,480 Hakansvi. He's actually a rabbi who had 758 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,520 spent time in Italy. He was from, he was from Israel. 759 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,240 He doesn't have a position in the community. 760 00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:31,640 He's a traveler. He's a shadar. 761 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,680 He's raising money for the Jews of Palestine. 762 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,040 He publishes a lot of books on his own. 763 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,200 He's also a massive Tam. He gets a hold of the book and 764 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,160 he says there's something a little fishy about this. 765 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:45,440 He gives the book to Khansvi and Khansvi picks up Ozil Kim. 766 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:51,960 He's like, this is a problem. There's Sabadian heresy on every 767 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,160 page of this of this book. And. 768 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,320 You know, he, again, to make a Long story short, he knocks on 769 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,400 the door of the Sparta community and says you have to kick this 770 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,800 guy out of the community and you have to put out a harem against, 771 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,840 against the book. And the Sephardim, you know, 772 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,160 basically say, thank you so much for bringing this to our 773 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,600 attention, but you are the Ashkenazi rabbi and we are the 774 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,280 Sephardic community. And what authority do you think 775 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:27,640 you possibly have to issue any harem for our community? 776 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,720 So Haremtvi stands by his harem. He says, you got to kick the guy 777 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:34,040 out of the community. You have to burn the book. 778 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,240 The Spartans say we're going to take it under advisement. 779 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:39,120 Nobody should say anything about the book. 780 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:40,800 We're going to have a Commission of inquiry. 781 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,320 Shlomoi alone, Chief rabbi of the Sparta community is going to 782 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,680 head A7 person Commission. He appoints 6 Co commissioners 783 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,480 to investigate the book. The Hamsi, thank you for 784 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,720 investigating the book. I'm issuing another harem 785 00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:57,240 against anyone who reads the book. 786 00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,560 And you can't keep the guy and you can't, can't keep the book. 787 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,720 The Spartim go through this process of investigating the 788 00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:09,920 book and they come to their conclusion and announce the 789 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,160 community. We have investigated the book. 790 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,480 The book is a kosher book. There's no heresy in the in the 791 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,640 book, no. Way. 792 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:24,080 As it turns out, Shlomo I alone was himself a crypto Sabadian, 793 00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:32,000 so it was unsurprising that he and his Commission would declare 794 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,400 that the book was totally was totally kosher. 795 00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:40,360 Hamsvi and Moshe Haghiz try to sound the alarm bell, The 796 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:46,440 authorities of Amsterdam get involved and at the end of the 797 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:54,840 day the the Sephardium basically place a theorem against Hahansvi 798 00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:02,280 and Moshe Haggis and they are forced to leave Amsterdam under 799 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,200 a very unfortunate circumstances. 800 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,120 And as I mentioned, Hahansvi in that city spends the next 3-4 801 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,440 years wandering and you know, never has a position like that 802 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,760 again. The, the position Amsterdam was 803 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,440 like one of the most prominent positions in, in Europe. 804 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:25,360 And he lost it like that because he was unwilling to, you know, 805 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:32,880 kowtow to lay authorities that he thought were dead wrong about 806 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,360 about this particular issue. It's, it's kind of unfortunate 807 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:41,240 how how this, how this Sabatin story kind of was brushed under 808 00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:47,360 the rug because you we take for granted or we, we just, we just 809 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:51,040 don't, people just don't know like how widespread this was 810 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,960 among leaders. You know, it's crazy and, and 811 00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,600 it's an important lesson because a lot of people have the kind 812 00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,040 of, let's say the Dastur approach. 813 00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,800 Oh, it's impossible for our leaders to ever make mistakes. 814 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:07,120 This is like very recent and it's, it's extremely like 815 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,400 impactful on for generations. So I, I think that, you know, 816 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,960 it's something that actually, I think the Sabbath team 817 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,600 controversy is such an important topic that it just, it should be 818 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,920 spoken about. And it kept coming back. 819 00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:23,760 I mean, there was another iteration in 1725. 820 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,000 And then you have, you know, of course, the M den Ibushitz 821 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,440 controversy. And then you have the next 822 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,520 generation of the Francis. Like it was not going away. 823 00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,200 It was not, it was not going away. 824 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:41,880 I'll just add 11 footnote, which is, you know, one of the big, 825 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:46,560 one of the big takeaways from the HyunA Fair is the sense 826 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:51,080 that, you know, rabbis didn't have to, didn't have to go it 827 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,120 alone. There's a piece of the story 828 00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,280 just for the sake of time that I, that I omitted. 829 00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:02,320 You know, Khansvi could not believe, could not believe that 830 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,920 any of these, you know, rabbis actually wrote approbations for 831 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,720 this book. So he took out his quill and he 832 00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:15,120 wrote to them and he said, I have a copy of OS Le Lokem 833 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,480 written by have you seen this book? 834 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,880 Did you write a Haskama to this book? 835 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,640 Do you think this book is actually not heretical? 836 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,680 And they all wrote back in Haskama. 837 00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:30,360 Never heard of it, never wrote it. 838 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,120 If I wrote, it was a mistake. You know, there's like a yeshiva 839 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,040 in Venice that I was like Haskama. 840 00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:39,960 Our community doesn't write Haskama. 841 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:46,000 So he actually, he actually created a coalition of like 842 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,760 minded rabbis and he collected all of these letters and all of 843 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,080 these signatories to be able to say I am not alone in believing 844 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,120 that right. These are my compatriots, these 845 00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,880 are my colleagues. They've all signed on with me in 846 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:06,120 this effort to discredit this, this Sabadian. 847 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:11,240 And that became an important modus operandi for rabbis in the 848 00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:13,840 early modern period. Again, it, it didn't start in 849 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,960 the Chyon affair, but it took on new energy in the Chyon affair. 850 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,360 This sense like, I don't have to go it alone. 851 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,960 We could form a coalition and together like a unified rabbit, 852 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,840 it could actually make a very strong case. 853 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,600 And that became very important for controversies that would 854 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,040 follow throughout the, you know, rest of the 18th, 19th century. 855 00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,320 What a crazy story. Really shocking that's it's. 856 00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,320 Really insane. Now that can happen. 857 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,440 Wow. Available on Amazon.com. 858 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,520 Well, Rabbi, this is amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. 859 00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,880 And before we go, do you have anything you besides this book, 860 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,600 do you have anything else you'd like to plug or where where 861 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,720 people can find you also? Well, I work at shul on the 862 00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:01,120 Upper West Side called the Jewish Center. 863 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,920 Everyone's invited to join us anytime. 864 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,480 We always have wonderful activities, programs and and 865 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,840 classes both on Shabbos and and throughout the week. 866 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,800 And my next project I'm working on actually a group of five 867 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,800 European rabbis who emigrated to the United States at the end of 868 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,600 the 19th century. So I'm in a little bit of a 869 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,920 different, different time period away, but I'm at the beginning 870 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,920 stages of that, that project. So we have a little time before 871 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,000 there's another book supply. And when that time comes, we'd 872 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:34,760 love to have you on again to. This sure. 873 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,320 If I live that long, it would be my honor. 874 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:43,040 Thank you so much for, for coming on the Hakam Svi. 875 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,760 We, we need more Hakam Svi's in, in, in in today's world as well. 876 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,680 We need more Hakam Svi's. He's, he's, he was a very unique 877 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,000 character. And we appreciate so much your 878 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:59,720 efforts to, to, to spread the, the life and, and, and the 879 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:04,600 authenticity of the Hakam Svi. And best of luck on all future 880 00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,360 endeavors. Someone asked me in a class I 881 00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,240 was teaching at Hakam Svi, who would you say? 882 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,880 Rabi Levine, who's like the 21st century but analog to Khansvi 883 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,960 and I said there is no analog to. 884 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:21,280 That's the problem, That's the problem, it's the problem. 885 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,680 And Bezrat, we should, we should, we should be to to be 886 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,160 able to merit leaders like him soon. 887 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:30,760 Amen. Amen. 888 00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,120 Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. 889 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:33,640 Thank you. Take care.