Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed.
Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and
Torah related topics with our esteemed guests.
By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find
addressed elsewhere, we aim to shed light on important issues
and inspire a return to the fundamentals.
Enjoy the show. Thank you for joining the
Judaism Demystified podcast. We are joined by Yael Lebowitz
with your amazing book over here, Ezra Nachemia, Retrograde
Revolution. We recommend it to everybody.
It's phenomenal and we're very excited to discuss it.
But before we begin, could you tell our audience a little bit
about yourself and your background?
Sure. First of all, thank you so much
for having me and for that great plug.
And so I taught in, I grew up on Long Island like you guys and I.
We I taught for a bunch of years at Romas High School and then at
* college I was teaching, teaching advanced Bible courses.
And then my family, we moved to Israel in 2014.
So I've been teaching since then at Matan.
Now I'm teaching at Lindenbaum as well.
And in 2022, actually Matan, which is a, a learning program
for women, it's an advanced learning program for women, sort
of had this idea that, you know, women's learning has sort of
reached a certain point within the Orthodox world and it's time
really to get women's books on the bookshelves.
And so they have this amazing program called the Kituni
program where they enable women who have been learning or
teaching for, you know, X number of years to, to sort of write
that book and publish it and get it out there.
So the, the ESR is sort of the, the result of that amazing
initiative really. And you know, it's, it's, I
mean, I'm sure we'll talk about this as the podcast goes on, but
Ezra Nachemia I think is one of the most relevant books for our
times, very much understudied for lots of reasons that we'll
discuss. So I, I just, I, I did my best
to sort of make it accessible to people because I, I just think
it's such an important work to, to sort of be looking at now.
Amazing. So like just to start it off, we
want to know why you chose this theme Retrograde Revolution and
what does it capture about the story and message of Ezra
Nachemia? Yeah.
So it's sort of has a, it's a double entendre on some level.
So, you know, retrograde obviously needs to move backward
and revolution has the implication, hopefully, if it's
done right, is of moving forward.
And so that was sort of the starting point for the
discussion is sort of the idea that within Jewish history,
there's never, you know, it's never sort of this beginning,
you know, a clean slate beginning and moving forward
without any memory of the past. That Judaism and Jewish history
ultimately is sort of about being able to do both
simultaneously, to look back and understand, you know, which
pieces of our history worked, which pieces did not work.
And then when we're trying to create something new, you know,
to sort of sift through those things, Which pieces do we want
to take with us that are going to, you know, get us to the next
phase that we want to reach and which pieces do we really need
to let go of? So Ezra Nechemia is talking
about the the period of return when the Jewish people returned
after the Babylonian exile beginning in 539 BCE.
And that ability to sort of, you know, look at the past honestly,
which is not, you know, I think it's something we don't always
do. We sometimes like to glorify the
past or create this illusion that the past was amazing and if
only we could get back there. And Ezra Nachemia, of all the
books in Tanakh, I think is the most, I don't want to say the
most, but I would say is very, very honest about the fact that
the past was not perfect, right? That's evidenced by the fact
that we were exiled to Babylon. And so I think that's really
what the author of Ezra Nachemia is trying to do, is try to sort
of weave through those different historical contingencies.
And, you know, and the second is just sort of a metaphor drawn
from astronomy. I grew up in a house where my
father always had the his telescope out and was always
showing us all the different, you know, clusters and
constellations. And so the term retrograde
revolution actually is talks about this phenomenon that that
astronomers talk about where, you know, all the different
planets move around the sun in the same direction, But the ones
that are closer to the sun move quicker than than the ones
further away naturally, right, Because they're, they're sort of
closer in. And So what happens is there's
this sense that if you're closer to the sun and you're seeing the
planets further apart that are still moving in the same
direction, it almost has the illusion of moving backwards
depending on where you're situated, depending on where
you're oriented. And so I just thought that was
just sort of a great metaphor for, you know, again, for Jewish
history, right? We sort of see things as either
progressing too quickly or too slowly.
And, and I what I think is most important is always to just stay
cognizant of what's our orientation, right?
In which direction are we moving ultimately?
And is that speed? In fact, you know, actual speed
or, or sort of, I guess we'd call it, you know, virtual
speed. And that's something that I
think is really, really important to take into
consideration when we're talking about change, when we're talking
about forward movement. It's just, it's just something I
think to be super self aware about.
Really cool, really cool. OK, so in your introduction you
discuss your unique approach to studying ezranichemia, which
differs from the more common historical or political
approaches. Can you explain your method to
our audience? Additionally, how do you how
does this approach reflect your broader understanding of Tanakh
and the relationship between history and the biblical text?
Yeah. So I would say I'll even sort of
start backwards if that's OK, because I think my study of
ezranichemia is really forms or was shaped by my approach to
Tanakh wholesale. I think Tanakh, one of the
things that happens, because we are traditional, we sort of
understand that there's a long history of tradition and
interpretation of Tanakh, is that we sometimes forget that
when Tanakh itself was actually written, first of all, those
interpretations do not yet exist.
But even the corpus of Tanakh did not exist, right?
We sometimes, I think we sometimes have this illusion,
you know, that there was this thing called Tanakh and everyone
was sort of hoping to get their book in there, right?
But when the authors of the various works of Tanakh were
writing their works, they weren't writing for some, you
know, corpus that was going to be maintained for posterity for
Jews for all eternity. They were writing for a very,
very specific audience. And, you know, the question that
I always like to ask or sort of pose to my students when we're
studying is, OK, here's the historical context.
Here are the geopolitical factors.
Here are the cultural realities that serve as the backdrop for
the Seafair. And now the question is, you
know, the author, I'm going to talk, for example, about
historical works, right? Obviously, this is, you know,
the same and yet different for poetic works or books of wisdom,
things like that. But taking Ezra Nachemia or any
of the historiographical works of Tana.
So what the author essentially is doing is utilizing the
history through which she or she is living as a medium to answer
the questions that I think his or her audience was grappling
with, was wrestling with. And that's essentially what
history always is. History writing.
We sort of have this again, you know, this illusion that history
writing is objective and it's just fact.
But history writing is never just fact.
History writing is always, you know, analyzing and interpreting
what happened in the past or what's happening in the future,
primarily based on where you want people to go, where you
want society to sort of work towards.
And so, you know, I think that's really when I read Tanakh, the,
the, and the sort of lens that I'm always looking through is
what questions were the original audience of this safer grappling
with? What were some of the issues
that the Jewish communities in these various times and places
were struggling with? We're looking for answers.
And how does the this specific safer through the way that it
teaches, through the way that it speaks, through the way that it
shapes history? How are those questions
answered? You know, if we look at Ezra
Nachemia versus other contemporaneous works, there are
so many, you know, contrasts in terms of how they answer very,
very similar questions. You know, I'll give you one
really quick example. Just, you know, we talk about
Ezrin Ekhemia. There are other contemporaneous
works. I'll give you 1 quick example.
You know, when, when just, you know, to back up and give
history. So the Jews were exiled in, as
you know, right. We came into the land.
I'll give sort of this overview very quickly.
About 1200 we came into the land and then there was the United
Kingdom in approximately 722, the 10 northern tribes were
exiled by the Neo Assyrians lost really essentially to the
vicissitudes of history until potentially today.
And then the southern tribes, the the tribes of Judah Benjamin
were exiled in 586 initially in five a couple years earlier was
the first wave. And then in 586 the temple was
destroyed. The majority of the Jews there
was a sum left inside, but majority of the Jews were exiled
to Babylon. And then 70 years later, the
ecumenic kings, which the first of which being Cyrus the Great
Cyrus the first captured the Neo Babylonian Empire took over and
essentially started what, what we call, you know, what we refer
to in the Galactus there as Parasuma died the the Persian
Empire. And one of the first things that
Cyrus did when he ascended to the throne was he put out this
Cyrus decree, which is the sort of football sized little you can
actually see it in the British Museum.
It's it's amazing. It's still there today.
It was not specific to the Jewish people.
It was to all the ethnic minorities that the Babylonians
had exiled. And he said, you know, you have
my full grants, my, my full permission and my financial
backing in some cases, as was, as was the case with us, to go
back to the land to rebuild your temples to your native gods.
And assuming that you remain loyal to the Persian Empire and
pay your taxes and don't defy any of Persian law, gods,
etcetera, etcetera, you have religious freedom really to
worship your gods, which was unprecedented in many ways in
the ancient world. And, and for many, many reasons.
The Persian Empire was really, you know, Cyrus the great,
Kishen McCain, who we say, right, like he really, he
deserved that title. But going back to what I was
saying in terms of different voices.
So, you know, the, the prophets prior to the return to the land,
one of the things that the prophets did prior to the exile
during and you know, in the lead up to the return to the land was
they wanted to give the people hope.
And they wanted to give people an understanding that the exile
was not permanent and that they were going to return and that
things were going to get better. What we call the Nivuot Nihama,
essentially, right? The the prophecies of comfort
the and, and it worked and they sort of helped Israel in the
exile understand what it means to worship God outside of the
land. You know, all these things that
for us as Jews the second time around in exile was sort of a
given. But for the Jews who left to
exile the first time around, who had never been in exile from the
days of Joshua, from the days they got into the land, had to
sort of wrap their heads around, what does it mean to be an
Israelite or a Jewish person outside of my land if God is not
imminent in the temple, if I can't just worship God there,
etcetera, etcetera. What does it mean that the Jews
have been scattered to all these different lands?
And so one of the things that the prophets did is they
articulated almost this sort of, you know, way of wrapping your
head around the concept of exile in a way that enabled them to
survive that moment in history and also go back to the lands
and anticipate a final return. So I'm mentioning this because
those prophecies were incredible and they talked about a lot of
things. Jeremiah in chapter 29 and near
me Yahoo. So he talks about how the Jews
should plant vineyards and have children and sort of live in
this sort of nice relationship with their host country.
And recognize that God can answer them from wherever they
are, which sort of tapped into the theological questions that
were being raised. But most importantly, he said,
and don't worry because after 70 years, God is going to bring you
back to the land, right? And if we look, for example, at
Ezekiel, you know, Haskell has these unbelievable visions of
what the return is going to be when they go back to the land.
The Beitami Katash is going to be more explicit than anything
they ever anticipated. And the 12 tribes are all going
to be reunited and a Davidic king is going to be on the
throne. And all of these, you know,
among many other promises that were made.
And then when the Jews do actually get back to the land in
539, which is where, you know, sort of going back to your
question, things were very much not like the prophets had sort
of talked about the the reality fell very, very short of those
utopian visions, right. So when I was talking about
contemporaneous voices and how we look at each State Fair
almost in, you know, in context and ask what the author is
answering. So for example, the Nivian, the
that we're writing or speaking really prophesizing in the early
days of their return. We're talking about this idea
about how the Jews who came back thought that the exile actually
hadn't ended. You know, they quote the the
voices of the day 8 Lobach, right?
The time just hasn't come yet. And they talk about that
struggle. Ezra Nehemia is very, very clear
referring to that sort of question, you know, like, so is
it really over? Is this actually the time to go
back if things are not the way Huskel imagined?
And Danielle, I'll just give you, you know, another example.
He's not a contemporaneous voice.
He actually writes during the period of the Hasmenian revolt.
So you're fast forwarding like almost 400 years has a scene
where he opens up safer year Meow, who He opens up the scroll
of year Meow and he looks at it and he says, I don't understand
year meow. You said 70 years.
And here we are again during the Hasmonean Greek period, here we
are still suffering. How is it possible that the
exile, you know, is still going on at the Malach?
Gabriel comes and explains, It's not 70, it's seven 70s.
It's really 490 years. So I'm giving you all those
examples because what I think is really important is that there
was really a sense among many Jews that if things were not yet
perfect, the exile just didn't end right.
And we just have to wait for it to sort of fall down from the
sky, and then we can call it redemption.
Well, yeah. I didn't want to go there.
Correct. Yeah.
That's really important. It's we're, we're kind of
falling into that trap today, like. 100% this sort of sense
that Jewish history has to happen for us and I think going
back to you know, what I said about the unique voice of Ezra
Nahamya, Ezra Nahamya is very clear, you know, the very first
pasuke ear Hashema through a Quraysh that Quraysh wasn't an
accident of history that this, you know, powerful king ascended
to the throne and suddenly lets the Jews go back.
Quraysh was a you know, a a marionette of God, which is the
overall perspective of Tana wholesale right.
Foreign actors are really just acting on behalf of God's
broader vision for the Jewish people and the trajectory of
Jewish history. But they they make it very
clear, you know, that this is after the 70 years of of your
Yahoo are over and it's the beginning of the return.
And not only do they not even consider that this isn't the
end, but they look at the imperfections of their day.
They acknowledge the imperfections, they acknowledge
the hardships. And but never once does that
force them to call into question whether this is real.
The quite the opposite, right? What they made clear is we got
back and now it is on us, the responsibility, the onus is on
us to bring about that ideal right to sort of make that ideal
happen. And so again, it's not a
question of which is right and which is wrong, right.
This is not at all, God forbid to say, you know, Hakai Zakaria,
they were prophets. And so they had a very, very
different role than the historic, you know, the
historiographer that was writing Ezra Nachemia.
But I, I think it's so important when we study Tanakh to sort of
listen to all of those different voices.
I think we have this inclination and I think it comes on some
level from, you know, Parsha Nuitt to sort of like, we like
to synthesize all the different voices, like, oh, no, no, they
all agree. It's just that he meant this and
he actually meant this. But actually, they're all in
agreement. And I actually think one of the
most important aspects of studying Tanakh is saying, no,
no, hold on a second. Jews don't always agree.
They never always agreed. I just because the words are
just because they're representing a divine word still
doesn't mean they have to agree, because the holistic truth is
always composed of different aspects of, you know, of the
truth. And so I think that's something
that's that's really, really important to sort of pay
attention to. And it really comes to the
surface in Azernohemia, where there were so many different
opposing voices speaking at the same time.
Very well said. You, you articulated that so
well. And I, I, I have to say that,
you know, I, I always kind of from my own perspective, when I
read the prophecies, I always see it as a call to action
versus something passive that you're waiting for it to
actually, like you said, fall from the sky and so on.
Like it's, it, it seems like it's telling us to do something
about it. Don't just wait, you know?
So that's my intuitive reading of it, but yeah.
You know, I think it's so important, though, that you say
that because I think that, you know, again, I don't know how to
chalk it up. I don't know if it's because
we're so long in exiled Jews felt powerless.
And so there was a sense that the only way things can happen
is if it falls from the sky. But I think what you're saying
is really, really important, right?
It's almost descriptive of or prescriptive of how we should
behave in order to to bring those realities into the world,
as opposed to just descriptive of what's going to one day
happen when we wake up, you know, in the morning, it's just
going to all be there for us. Well said, well said.
So Ezra and Ahemia are unfortunately not among the most
widely studied books in Tanakh. Many Jews who learn Torah
regularly may never study them even once in a lifetime.
Why do you believe Ezra Nakamiya are essential for Jewish
learning? You know, I'll say, I think, you
know, it's interesting. I think it wasn't popular.
You know, if you talk about other books in Tanakh, you walk
into any Jewish institution, any shul anywhere, and you say, tell
me about Miki Latas there. And again, of course, Miki Latas
there is a different example because it's read virtually once
a year. But you know, there's not a Jew
in the world that won't be or not, I would say an educated,
fairly educated Jew in the world that won't be able to say, you
know, well, the Jews, they lived comfortably in this foreign
empire. And then one morning a bad guy
woke up and decided he wanted to kill all the Jews.
And the, you know, the leaders went along with it because they
were apathetic and Hannah Aaron style, they just, you know, they
didn't stand up to the bad guys. And, and so that's a story that
everyone knows. And I think partially they know
it because it resonated so deeply.
We end up being drawn to the siren and Tanakh that speak to
our current situation for 2000 years.
That story, you know, based, you know, the story that you guys,
the history you guys were just telling me a couple of minutes
ago before the podcast started about your families in Iran.
So that story is almost the the story that that use an exile
experience for so long. But it's not just Mickey laptist
there. If you look at safer shof team.
So it's asking about moral relativism and what happens when
there's no objective truth and what happens when we all sort of
believe that we have our own versions of, you know, of what
is right and what is wrong and and how does that lead to the
sort of, you know, crumbling or or disintegration of society and
of ethics and of morality wholesale.
And so all these different books, safer Shmuel, how do you
you know, what happens with power and how does power corrupt
all of those resonated? I think Ezra Nachemia is asking
the question like we just mentioned a couple of minutes
ago. OK, Now, what happens when Jews
are allowed to go back to the land?
How do you rebuild? How do you reconstitute what was
lost? What does Jewish identity look
like? How do I thread the needle
between recognizing that the centrality of Israel is really
sort of first and foremost should be forced and foremost in
our consciousness and at the same time not wanting to
peripheralize the diaspora and making sure that people hood is
on par with, you know, the the centrality of a promised land?
How do I maintain both of those truths simultaneously?
Simultaneously? And so, you know, those are all
really, really important questions we didn't have.
I mentioned a couple of minutes ago that, you know, the
prophets, you know, fantasized about a Davida king returning to
the throne, but Davida king didn't return to the throne.
And one of the things the Jews had to learn was how do you
navigate this new geopolitical reality?
How do we interact with foreign actors?
Is it possible that foreign actors are not always
antagonistic the way, you know, Nabukhad, Netzar and Sanskara of
the Assyrians was or Paro or all the other, you know, enemies in
our history? And is it possible that maybe
there's a new model with Khorace here where God is saying that,
you know, Jewish history can unfold in tandem with what the
foreign actors are doing? Is there a way to create a
relationship there that's almost symbiotic in a way, right?
Or, or certainly not antagonistic?
And so all of those questions are questions that were being
asked, You know, Jewish literacy.
When we came back to the land, most people did not even know
what the Torah was. They were not familiar.
There's one scene where, say, it's one of the most important
scenes really, in Ezra and Ahmia, where Ezra and Ahmia, the
twin leaders, are standing there and they present the Torah to
the people for the first time. And Ezra empowers the people to
go back to the text and to learn the text and familiarize
themselves with it. And there's this unbelievably
beautiful scene where, you know, the people start crying.
And it's almost like you think to yourself, like, why are they
crying? This is a great day.
And they start crying because they realized how far they had
sort, of, you know, grown from the text and from what God wants
of them and from what they should be doing as, you know,
this sort of as a people living in the land.
And the scene is beautiful because the leaders then turn to
them and they say, no, no, no, don't cry.
And if you think again, if you rewind in your minds to the sort
of, you know, authoritarian, you know, to the sort of harsh
critiques of the prophets in the past, like you're doing wrong
and you must repent. And here the leaders turn.
So then they say, no, no, no, don't be sad, right?
And they say get out candies, you know, give out candies and
turn to your neighbors and celebrate because today they say
Khadwat Hashem hima ustem, right?
Which again, I'm going to paraphrase really loosely.
What they're saying is, you know, this is a day of
celebration and of joy because you have the text of the Torah,
everything you need in order to rehabilitate yourself as a
people. It, you know, the, the secret of
Jewish literacy is that we can always rehabilitate ourselves as
long as we go back to the text, as long as we reconnect with
those, you know, that that sort of divine imperative that was
given to us as a people. And so Jewish literacy is
something that's really important.
By the way, just as you know, as a side note, it's what's
beautiful is that they, they see in the Tsukim, it says that they
learn. Well, first of all, it says that
the next day they come back to learn more, right?
Which is the sign of any good teacher who is trying to, to
bring people back to the text is if he presents this reality that
is, again, it's not harsh and it's not critique and it's not
yelling at them for the places where they failed.
He could have easily done that, that right, They were crying.
And he could have said, yeah, you should be crying.
You're a terrible people. He doesn't do that.
He turns to them and he says, no, no, no, it's OK because you
have at your fingertips everything you need, and you
just have to do the work it takes.
And the greatest sign of his success is that the next day
they come back to learn more. But you know what?
I mentioned a couple of minutes ago that there was absolutely no
Jewish literacy. A couple of second leader, it
says they or a little bit later it says, and they found in the
text that they should be sitting in Sukhoth.
And they hadn't done that since the days of Yoshua being none.
Right, which if you're reading that, that's crazy.
We're talking about the mid, you know, 4 hundreds BCE saying that
the Israelites had not built Sukkot and sat in them since the
days they got into the land. That's that's almost this like
totally throws, you know, up ends our, our our vision or our
in our imagination, what Israel was that whole first temple
period. But I think that's really,
really important because Jewish literacy is key.
So all of the topics that Ezra Nachemia deals with going back
to your question are so relevant today that, and it's almost
like, you know, we're confused. We're sitting here, Jews in the
Diaspora, Jews in Israel. What's the next step?
How do we deal with enemies? How do we deal with our friends?
How do we get Jews back to feeling, you know, that they're
part of a cohesive people despite the competing needs and
wills of the Jews in Israel and the Jews in Diaspora, It's all
there for us, right? We just have to read the book.
It's it, it's like a guide book that's sitting there waiting for
us to just peruse it and and find the answers we're looking
for. Amazing.
We're, we're, we're in that we're not exact, but we're in
like this situation where from 1948, we've had to land again,
yet we're also in the diaspora. It's like the same dynamic.
It's playing over the dynamic that was going on with Ezran.
It's, it's sort of it's, it's, it's a shame that the book of
Izra is not, is not being used as a catalyst to, to enlighten
our present day situations because like you're saying,
it's, it's the same dynamic. We're in that same dynamic and
it's just there's, there's so much there.
And in the spirit of that, we wanted to ask you if you could
discuss your chapter. There's a lot of amazing
chapters so I I was only able to choose one for time constraints,
but can you discuss your chapter on what is a Jew, Specifically
the question of Jewish identity and how it is addressed in the
book of Izzah? Yeah, sure.
Thanks for picking the thorniest chapter to to cover in 5 minutes
or less. Take your time.
On it. Take your time on it.
No, it's, I'm saying it's, you know, it's, I don't want to be,
I don't want anything here to be misconstrued.
It's not a simple chapter. You know, it's, it's not, I
would say it's not a simple topic to, to tackle.
It's, you know, for, for lots of reasons.
But I would say in short, what happens in the days of
azernohemia? And this is something that,
again, we don't think about because we kind of imagine that
there was this, you know, monolithic approach from Sinai
or from, you know, the days of Abraham until now.
What is a Jew? And that it's always been what
it is. But the, the parameters for how
we define who was a Jew is something that's actually always
been evolving in Jewish history. And the first time that that
question is really asked is in the days of Ezra Nachemia.
There's a scene when when the Jews come back and they're
starting to rebuild and lay the foundation group of Jews come
and they ask, you know, could we be?
We want to be involved. And they explained that their
history is that they were people who were moved into Israel, just
like the Assyrians moved the 10 tribes out.
So they didn't leave the land empty.
They moved other ethnic minorities from other areas in
the Near East into that area of northern Israel.
And these people come and they claim and they say, you know,
we've been worshipping God. You'd K Vavque since we were
moved in in the 8th century PCE And we live in the land and we
want to and we want to help you build the temple right now the,
the people who are building Zurbabel and Sheshmatzar, they
turn to them and they say, uh huh, Yahad, right?
No, no, no. And and yahad sounds nice and
sweet. All you know, in the very
beginning until we remember that yahad in the second temple was a
sectarian term, right? It's not saying yahad all of us
together. It's saying no, yahad us because
we're in the club and you're out, which is a, a really,
really hard scene to to read. And the question there obviously
is why are they not being allowed?
So, you know, and the question really the reason the question
is relevant is because if you go back to the earlier phase in
Jewish history, really from the days we became a people until
the destruction, to be considered a Jew, you had to or
I would say not a Jew, a Gare, meaning a stranger who is
considered a part of the community, not Gare in the
modern. Yeah, good job, you told.
Me, right, correct, right. So even that's sort of a
rabbinic distinction because later on in Jewish history
conversion is introduced into the mix.
But in the days of, in the early phases of, of, you know,
biblical history, we didn't distinguish between those types.
We said if you live, if you are not genealogically Jewish, but
you live in our community, then ultimately down the line, again,
there was no separation of church and state.
So if you live in our community, it means in theory, you're
following, not necessarily all taryaka meets both, but you are
certainly respecting and following the rules that would
in any way infringe on the integrity of the community of
religiously speaking. You can't worship idols.
You can't, you know, break Shabbat.
You can't, you don't you know, the the best example to sort of
clarify what the obligations were and were not is if a gear,
it says if a gear wants to bring a Corbin Pesoc, meaning they're
not obligated to bring a Corbin Pesoc, but if a gear wants to,
then he has to 1st circumcise himself, right?
So it's sort of what it really speaks about is you, you are
living in our midst. You have to maintain, like I
mentioned, the sort of religious, spiritual integrity
of this community. You're not necessarily obligated
in all 613. So, but you're considered a part
of the community for all intents and purposes and to not goes out
of its way to make clear Lotto net a gear, right?
We can't treat them like second class citizens.
We have to make sure that, you know, by they're necessarily
vulnerable because they may not have the genealogical
connection. And so we have to make sure that
they are treated fairly and treated benevolently, etcetera,
etcetera. And so when these people come
and they say we want to build with you according to first
temple or early phase, early biblical phase qualifications,
they should have been allowed to build, right?
They should have been the, the response of Sheshbatar and
Zubaval should have been OK, sure, great.
The more the merrier, especially because they were limited in
manpower and limited in resources and, you know, for all
the obvious reasons. So the question why they didn't
let them is a really, really important question.
So, you know, there are some that argue based on the story
in, in Seifer al ahem, that talks about when these people
originally moved in that they were worshipping idols and they
weren't really, you know, exclusively loyal to God.
But, you know, I sort of pushed back at that when people claim
that. And I say, well, neither were
the Jews, right? Neither was Israel, which is why
we were exiled to begin with. And so it's to say you're, you
don't qualify because you were behaving badly in the 6th
century BC or the 7th century BC is is kind of a double standard.
By the time Israel got the Jews got back, they wanted to join,
they were saying, we, our staunch monotheists, we want to
build a view. And so it, it really raises that
question, why were they excluded rather than included?
And it taps into something which it's interesting, it's it's not
particularly overt in Azerna Khamia.
And yet it's threaded through the entire narrative, which is
that at this phase in Jewish history, the leaders decided
that instead of a Jew being defined by geographically by the
borders of the land, assuming you're in and you live here.
I think about roots, the quintessential foreigner living
in our midst, She said, Amir Hami, your nation is my nation.
Elokaya, right, Ameka. Hello, Kai.
Bashar. Bashar.
Which is in a nutshell, I'm gonna live in your land and
worship your God. Why this phase in the second
period, you know, the second temple, the leaders were saying
that's no longer enough. Geography can no longer be the
defining feature, which seems really exclusivist and obnoxious
and you could say xenophobic and throw in all the other
terminology that that many scholars actually do until you
actually look at the bigger picture and take a step back.
Because in the in this phase in history, for the very first
time, we have diaspora, right? So if I say you're a Jew, if you
live within the borders of the land, majority of the Jewish
people were not in the land majority of the people buying.
Everybody outside of the land, that's right, that's living in,
in Babylonia and everywhere. Else correct, Babylonia, Egypt
problem, correct. So you know, it seems exclusive
as in the micro, if you're only, you know, if you're zooming the
camera in on Israel, if you take if you pan out and you say hold
on a second, there's an entirety of a Jewish people and what the
leaders were really concerned with.
And again, if you use the 10 tribes as a contrast, 10 tribes
were exiled in the 8th century, never to be heard from again,
right. So what the leaders understood
is that if they don't actively redefine who is a Jew to include
all of the Jews that had gone out to the Diaspora or what they
risk is either to completely do different Jewish people with
different qualifying features or losing them all together.
And that was something that the leaders, you know, again, it is
not an easy decision. And I'm not saying it was PC in
the day. It certainly wasn't.
And one of the things that I think is most fascinating about
Ezron economy is that, you know, it presents the this new
approach and this sort of, you know, watershed as something
that was important to the leaders.
And also makes clear that there was a lot of pushback from the
from the people living during that time, that how could you do
this? And this is unfair.
And so that dialogue that ensues in the safer, I think takes a
consideration or acknowledges how difficult that move was.
And also from the perspective of the author, how important from
almost, you know, not to sound dramatic, but from an
existential perspective, that change was, you know, we were
talking before about voices. So the, you know, one of the
much later verses that's attributed to Ishayao, but was
written really in probably in the post exilic period where he
envisions the the famous, you know, song that we sing Bhagavi
otimel har khadshi, right, Vasi maktimawehti Lati, where it
talks about this, you know, what's going to happen in the
future and what what he envisions is that all the people
are going to come to the temple, right?
It says it says baits Vilai Karela whole Hamin right that
the temple is going to be this place where we where all the
nations could come and and participate.
And so that goes back to the way, you know, bringing it all
full circle. The different voices you have
Ezra Nakamya saying, uh, absolutely not.
The borders need to be hermetically sealed.
We are in a time right now where the Jewish people's existence is
fragile, where we really need to rehabilitate ourselves, where we
need to understand who we are and redefine who a Jew is in
order to maintain and again, cohesion and and and a strong
sense of Jewish identity. And then you have the other
voices saying, hold on a second, but that's not us, right?
We are a universalist people. We are a people that appreciate
all humanity. I want to give everyone equal
opportunity to connect with God. What I think is most fascinating
is perhaps not even how the debate ends in as Anacamia,
because it kind of leaves us on a cliffhanger.
What we hear is the leaders want this.
The people were pushing back. What I think is most
fascinating, if we Fast forward in Jewish history, ultimately
down the line, what we have are is an understanding that yes,
you need to be genealogically Jewish.
That's really important. And at the same time, if there
are people who genuinely want to belong to our people and they
take it upon themselves and they showed that they really believe,
buy into the Jewish project, so to speak.
So down the line, what we have is the introduction of the
concept of conversion in rabbinic Judaism.
To me, that speaks to everything we need to know about Jewish
history, right? You have very, very staunch
positions on each side, each side having its really important
points and it's really valid position.
And then recognizing that ultimately the resilience of the
Jewish people and our ability to, to maintain that, that
strength and that integrity actually comes from our ability
to take into consideration all those different voices and
somehow find a way to, you know, to, to, I don't want to call it
compromise, but to find a way to integrate those different voices
for the sake of, of, you know, of what we're trying to build.
So you know, who is a Jew is one of the really important topics
in the in the period and it's it's worth looking at.
Beautiful. There's like nothing left to say
after she finishes. You say everything like there's
it's it's it's a complete when you talk.
That was that was amazing. That was a very important and
and fantastic. Do you have anything to add?
I do not. I do not.
Yeah. Questions.
Nothing else. That see, that's also a
compliment to there's no questions that ultimately that
you've explained yourself so well that there's really nothing
left to follow up with. But thank you so much.
Amazing. You offhand you you had a you
did a podcast regarding Jewish identity in the in the world of
anti-Semitism. And we haven't listened to it
yet, but the topic is so important.
And I was wondering if you can give a little bit of insight
into that, your thoughts on this idea of today's issues of Jewish
identity in an anti-Semitic world, if there's something that
you can say about that. Yeah.
So you know, again, anti-Semitism in the modern
perspective is not my it's not my wheelhouse, you know,
analyzing it historically. That's certainly not my area of
expertise. I will say from the perspective
of Tanakh, if we're going to sort of just, you know, circle
back because sometimes, you know, the way Tanakh presents
things almost seems overly simplistic and hard to buy into
in modern times. But, you know, if we look at the
fact that we're still here thousands of years later.
So then there has to be something to it, right?
There has to be some, some deeper secret that that again,
if if we look at it and it almost appears too simplistic,
maybe it is that simple. Tanak is very clear about, I
would say two things. And this does tie into Ezra
Nachemia, you know, because exile is a theme that looms so
large in Tanak. Exile is sort of there from the
beginning all the way through the, you know, through today in
modern times, in our history, there's this sense that God
chose a land and that's where we belong.
And I actually mentioned this in one of my early books, right?
If you imagine a hypothetical God could have found when he
chooses Abraham, he says, you know, Abraham, I'm choosing you
from the land of or, and I'm asking you to move to the center
because this is the chosen land. And we all just take that as a
given that there's a this sort of move from the periphery into
the the center where God chooses.
But, you know, we can ask the question.
God could have easily found Abraham.
Let's say he was the greatest guy of his generation and said,
OK, Abraham, you're the best. Stay where you are in or, and
I'm going to build a great nation from you, right.
Or in the reverse hypothetical, God could have found a really
great guy in Kanaan and said, you're awesome and this is the
land I chose. And so I want you to stay here
and build a great nation, but Hashem doesn't Hashem says, I
want you to move to the land and, and build a great nation
there. And so from the beginning,
there's this sense of movement from the outside in.
It's almost like there's this centripetal pull from the
outside moving in. But what I think is really,
really important for us to remember in in modern times in
particular, and I think this applies equally to to the
Diaspora and specifically to the Jews in Israel, is that the
promise of the Jewish people and the lands are two promises that
are inextricably linked, right? That's, that's always been the
case, which is why for thousands of years, even though we were
outside the land, there was this desire and it was articulated in
our liturgy and in our, you know, in our, on our Hagim to
constantly return to the land. That said, our existence on the
land is always utterly contingents on our behavior,
right? We don't come to the lands and
then own the lands. We come to the lands and then we
earn our right to live in this place that God promised, where
he promises to have extra divine protection and, and where we
have access to him, right. However you want to define that
if we behave according to the really according to the rules
outlined in ethical monotheism, monotheism is not just about
whittling God down to 1. Monotheism is about saying that
this one God who is supreme and you know, omnipotent and
omniscient is choosing you as a people, not because you're the
best, but because he's choosing you to to take upon yourself
this added responsibility of following the the precept of
this Torah to build a society, not just about worshiping God
and bringing sacrifices or whatever the case may be, but to
build a society that is fair and ethical and just and in that way
worship God right. The the sort of misnomer that
there's been a Damla have their own being a Damla Macomb.
They're not separate categories. We worship God through creating
a fair and just and ethical society.
And so our ability to exist on that land and to really, I would
say, become the fullest version of ourselves as Jewish people is
ultimately what the Tanakh and what that covenantal
relationship is all about. And so, you know, again, I'm not
addressing specifically Jew anti-Semitism, although I think
anti-Semitism or you know, in the language of Bayyekrans
Varum, it's about the enemies attacking us and the enemies.
I think all of that comes down boils down to the question not
so much how do we fight anti-Semitism on campus and how
do we, you know, sign petitions and make sure that the mayor
isn't doing something? I think these are the times in
Jewish history and and very important caveat on putting
theodicy on the side, right. I'm being, I'm not certainly not
blaming Jews for the bad things that befall us.
Sometimes bad things just happen.
But if there is any, if we do have any agency, and I'm not
taking away the, you know, the political activism and the
activism and social media, all of that is important.
But if we sort of whittle it down to its most basic
components from the perspective of Tanakh, I think Tanakh says
this is the moment in history where we look inside, where we
reorient ourselves with, you know, excuse me, who are we as a
people and what are we supposed to be doing?
And if God did choose us to be, you know, what later Naveem call
a light on to the nation. So what does that exactly mean
to be a light on to the nation? So what does that mean to
remain, you know, loyal and and and authentic to to who we are?
I always love to quote someone said this actually after October
7th, my neighbor said this to me and it totally, you know, he
said the turning point and Miki left us there.
The enemy said, I'm Akhad Mifuzar Mufu Rabe and let's kill
them and because they're different and they're other and
they don't behave according to the rules and they think they're
and the turning point is when Esther says Lehknos, it's called
how you dim, right? Gather them together and fast
for me and let's reorient ourselves.
What does it mean? What is our goal really, you
know, in this world at this point in history?
And I think that on some level, if we can do that, and this goes
back to everything Azernochemia talks about, you know, they get
back to the land. The question is not just how do
we build and what type of infrastructure do we need and
what type of political, you know, leadership do we need.
The I think the question really underpinning the entire safe air
is how do we make sure that this time around we get to stay
right? That's that's really the
question. That's the question choosing
Israel should be asking. It's the question choosing
Diaspora should be asking, you know, sort of with an eye
towards Israel and also like as an eye towards peoplehood.
And, you know, again, as as simple as it sounds, sometimes,
you know, the simple truths are the are the, you know, are the
most important ones that we have to sort of get back to peel away
all the other layers that that sort of drown out those those
really clear, I think pieces. Yeah, I think one of the most
important points you made is about, you know, I, I see this
about our the saddest day of the year in, in Jewish history is to
Shabab. And it's not a day that you
would, you'd imagine that we would blame, you know, the
Romans or whatever enemy attacks us.
But it's never, it's almost never mentioned.
It's almost, it's almost always about what did we do wrong and
how can we fix it, right? What would we, what would we do
today if we so we talked about like, you know, we don't want to
have baseless hatred and all that.
That's always the message that we're teaching.
And I think that that it's, it really says a lot about, you
know, what, what we are and who we are.
I think it's an amazing thing because it's, there's no blaming
involved. It's, it's always about, it's
not blaming others, but it's always looking at ourselves
saying what can we do to make things better?
So to me, I I think that that just as to what you're saying,
yeah. So this is this is amazing.
This is beautiful. So it's such an important thing
that you just said sorry to build on it, but it's, it's just
so, so critical, right? There's sort of, I think
especially now in the West, you know, there's a competition for
who's the biggest victim. And this happens on the minor
scales. You know, TikTok happens and
Judaism was never, we were never about taking pride in being
victims. Like you're saying, right?
It's not, we're not looking at who did this to us.
We're looking at how do we empower ourselves to create a
different future for ourselves? And that's like one of the most
important, I think, takeaways. So thank you so much for saying
that. That's really.
Before we let you go, are you working on any other projects?
Oh, thank you. Yeah.
I, I actually am. I'm working now on a project I
am taking. You know, I'm really excited
about it. Actually.
I would say it's a little more Ezra Nachemia sort of leans, a
little scholarly leans, you know, in the more academic
realm, definitely accessible. But, you know, I don't want to,
everyone should read it. But this other book is really I
want to try to draw in people who are perhaps less versed in
Tanakh or less steeped in it. And what I do is I try to, I
actually made a a long list, this is my Corona project, a
long list of different ideas in Jewish biblical thoughts, some
of which, for example, you know, we talked about today.
And my other, my other love is, is talking about women in Tanakh
and how Tanakh is actually gender neutral and actually not
even the least bit misogynistic, the way that many would like to
interpret it. And I try to weave the, the, and
what I do is I have the different women in Tanakh
speaking about the different, these different, they're sort of
the mouthpiece to discuss these different ideas in Jewish
biblical thought. It's really meant for, for, you
know, lay people. My, my dream is that it'll,
it'll get people back to learning the text after each
chapter. I hope to have sort of a series
of questions where it can lead into a discussion group and
really just engender learning in a a sort of sophisticated and
thoughtful manner. You know, like a lot like what
we spoke about today. What were the questions that
that these are wrestling with? And I, I think it's so important
to get people, you know, it goes back to what we were saying a
minute ago about Jewish literacy, right?
That's in my mind, hopefully a gateway back into who we are as
a people. What are we trying to
accomplish? You know, instead of living in
fear, living from a place of, you know, we are this people
that, that have a lot to offer the world.
And, and how do we, how do we reorient ourselves with those,
with those missions and with those ideals?
That sounds amazing. We we'd love to have you on to
the Skype. Whenever.
Oh, thank you. I'm your publisher and I'm back.
All right, I don't think you'll have so much of a problem.
Thank you. No, we had, we had actually Gila
fine on. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, she's.
Amazing of, of a maggot. And she she, she had a she has a
book called Madwoman and the Rabbi's Attic.
Yeah, of course. And basically they're doing the
same thing that you're trying to do it, but you're doing it with
Tanf and she's doing it with. It with and.
And and it was, yeah. And it, it's just I, it's so
important. It's so important.
We need more of this. And there's just, it's been,
there's been an incredible explosion of, of.
Women voices right now you have a with yours with with Gila
Fine, Erica Brown. Al Ziegler.
Al Ziegler, there's so many, so many Maka Simkovich, so many.
And you know, we just we hope that you can you can develop the
next generation of incredible women to come and and and bring
their voices and perspectives into Tanakh, which is incredibly
needed. Thank.
You guys for giving us the platform, that's really
important. Thank you so much.
We really appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you for coming. Yeah, Leibowitz again, Ezra.
Nachemia Retrogade Revolution. Sorry about that.
What do we do? Oh.
No. What's that called?
I knocked off the computer. Sorry one second.
I apologize. I'm sorry about that Retrogade
Revolution. Please come, please buy the
book. And we wish you much success in
all your future endeavors. Hope to have you on again, and
we appreciate it. And Javotov.
Thank you so much to you guys too.
Thank you.