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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
We are joined by Yael Lebowitz 

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with your amazing book over 
here, Ezra Nachemia, Retrograde 

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Revolution. 
We recommend it to everybody. 

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It's phenomenal and we're very 
excited to discuss it. 

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But before we begin, could you 
tell our audience a little bit 

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about yourself and your 
background? 

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Sure. 
First of all, thank you so much 

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for having me and for that great
plug. 

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And so I taught in, I grew up on
Long Island like you guys and I.

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We I taught for a bunch of years
at Romas High School and then at

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* college I was teaching, 
teaching advanced Bible courses.

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And then my family, we moved to 
Israel in 2014. 

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So I've been teaching since then
at Matan. 

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Now I'm teaching at Lindenbaum 
as well. 

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And in 2022, actually Matan, 
which is a, a learning program 

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for women, it's an advanced 
learning program for women, sort

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of had this idea that, you know,
women's learning has sort of 

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reached a certain point within 
the Orthodox world and it's time

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really to get women's books on 
the bookshelves. 

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And so they have this amazing 
program called the Kituni 

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program where they enable women 
who have been learning or 

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teaching for, you know, X number
of years to, to sort of write 

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that book and publish it and get
it out there. 

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So the, the ESR is sort of the, 
the result of that amazing 

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initiative really. 
And you know, it's, it's, I 

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mean, I'm sure we'll talk about 
this as the podcast goes on, but

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Ezra Nachemia I think is one of 
the most relevant books for our 

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times, very much understudied 
for lots of reasons that we'll 

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discuss. 
So I, I just, I, I did my best 

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to sort of make it accessible to
people because I, I just think 

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it's such an important work to, 
to sort of be looking at now. 

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Amazing. 
So like just to start it off, we

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want to know why you chose this 
theme Retrograde Revolution and 

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what does it capture about the 
story and message of Ezra 

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Nachemia? 
Yeah. 

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So it's sort of has a, it's a 
double entendre on some level. 

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So, you know, retrograde 
obviously needs to move backward

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and revolution has the 
implication, hopefully, if it's 

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done right, is of moving 
forward. 

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And so that was sort of the 
starting point for the 

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discussion is sort of the idea 
that within Jewish history, 

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there's never, you know, it's 
never sort of this beginning, 

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you know, a clean slate 
beginning and moving forward 

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without any memory of the past. 
That Judaism and Jewish history 

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ultimately is sort of about 
being able to do both 

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simultaneously, to look back and
understand, you know, which 

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pieces of our history worked, 
which pieces did not work. 

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And then when we're trying to 
create something new, you know, 

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to sort of sift through those 
things, Which pieces do we want 

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to take with us that are going 
to, you know, get us to the next

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phase that we want to reach and 
which pieces do we really need 

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to let go of? 
So Ezra Nechemia is talking 

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about the the period of return 
when the Jewish people returned 

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after the Babylonian exile 
beginning in 539 BCE. 

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And that ability to sort of, you
know, look at the past honestly,

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which is not, you know, I think 
it's something we don't always 

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do. 
We sometimes like to glorify the

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past or create this illusion 
that the past was amazing and if

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only we could get back there. 
And Ezra Nachemia, of all the 

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books in Tanakh, I think is the 
most, I don't want to say the 

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most, but I would say is very, 
very honest about the fact that 

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the past was not perfect, right?
That's evidenced by the fact 

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that we were exiled to Babylon. 
And so I think that's really 

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what the author of Ezra Nachemia
is trying to do, is try to sort 

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of weave through those different
historical contingencies. 

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And, you know, and the second is
just sort of a metaphor drawn 

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from astronomy. 
I grew up in a house where my 

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father always had the his 
telescope out and was always 

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showing us all the different, 
you know, clusters and 

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constellations. 
And so the term retrograde 

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revolution actually is talks 
about this phenomenon that that 

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astronomers talk about where, 
you know, all the different 

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planets move around the sun in 
the same direction, But the ones

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that are closer to the sun move 
quicker than than the ones 

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further away naturally, right, 
Because they're, they're sort of

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closer in. 
And So what happens is there's 

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this sense that if you're closer
to the sun and you're seeing the

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planets further apart that are 
still moving in the same 

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direction, it almost has the 
illusion of moving backwards 

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depending on where you're 
situated, depending on where 

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you're oriented. 
And so I just thought that was 

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just sort of a great metaphor 
for, you know, again, for Jewish

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history, right? 
We sort of see things as either 

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progressing too quickly or too 
slowly. 

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And, and I what I think is most 
important is always to just stay

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cognizant of what's our 
orientation, right? 

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In which direction are we moving
ultimately? 

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And is that speed? 
In fact, you know, actual speed 

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or, or sort of, I guess we'd 
call it, you know, virtual 

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speed. 
And that's something that I 

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think is really, really 
important to take into 

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consideration when we're talking
about change, when we're talking

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about forward movement. 
It's just, it's just something I

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think to be super self aware 
about. 

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Really cool, really cool. 
OK, so in your introduction you 

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discuss your unique approach to 
studying ezranichemia, which 

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differs from the more common 
historical or political 

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approaches. 
Can you explain your method to 

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our audience? 
Additionally, how do you how 

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does this approach reflect your 
broader understanding of Tanakh 

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and the relationship between 
history and the biblical text? 

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Yeah. 
So I would say I'll even sort of

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start backwards if that's OK, 
because I think my study of 

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ezranichemia is really forms or 
was shaped by my approach to 

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Tanakh wholesale. 
I think Tanakh, one of the 

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things that happens, because we 
are traditional, we sort of 

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understand that there's a long 
history of tradition and 

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interpretation of Tanakh, is 
that we sometimes forget that 

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when Tanakh itself was actually 
written, first of all, those 

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interpretations do not yet 
exist. 

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But even the corpus of Tanakh 
did not exist, right? 

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We sometimes, I think we 
sometimes have this illusion, 

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you know, that there was this 
thing called Tanakh and everyone

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was sort of hoping to get their 
book in there, right? 

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But when the authors of the 
various works of Tanakh were 

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writing their works, they 
weren't writing for some, you 

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know, corpus that was going to 
be maintained for posterity for 

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Jews for all eternity. 
They were writing for a very, 

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very specific audience. 
And, you know, the question that

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I always like to ask or sort of 
pose to my students when we're 

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studying is, OK, here's the 
historical context. 

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Here are the geopolitical 
factors. 

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Here are the cultural realities 
that serve as the backdrop for 

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the Seafair. 
And now the question is, you 

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know, the author, I'm going to 
talk, for example, about 

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historical works, right? 
Obviously, this is, you know, 

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the same and yet different for 
poetic works or books of wisdom,

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things like that. 
But taking Ezra Nachemia or any 

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of the historiographical works 
of Tana. 

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So what the author essentially 
is doing is utilizing the 

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history through which she or she
is living as a medium to answer 

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the questions that I think his 
or her audience was grappling 

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with, was wrestling with. 
And that's essentially what 

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history always is. 
History writing. 

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We sort of have this again, you 
know, this illusion that history

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writing is objective and it's 
just fact. 

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But history writing is never 
just fact. 

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History writing is always, you 
know, analyzing and interpreting

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what happened in the past or 
what's happening in the future, 

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primarily based on where you 
want people to go, where you 

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want society to sort of work 
towards. 

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And so, you know, I think that's
really when I read Tanakh, the, 

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the, and the sort of lens that 
I'm always looking through is 

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what questions were the original
audience of this safer grappling

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with? 
What were some of the issues 

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that the Jewish communities in 
these various times and places 

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were struggling with? 
We're looking for answers. 

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And how does the this specific 
safer through the way that it 

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teaches, through the way that it
speaks, through the way that it 

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shapes history? 
How are those questions 

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answered? 
You know, if we look at Ezra 

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Nachemia versus other 
contemporaneous works, there are

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so many, you know, contrasts in 
terms of how they answer very, 

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very similar questions. 
You know, I'll give you one 

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really quick example. 
Just, you know, we talk about 

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Ezrin Ekhemia. 
There are other contemporaneous 

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works. 
I'll give you 1 quick example. 

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You know, when, when just, you 
know, to back up and give 

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history. 
So the Jews were exiled in, as 

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you know, right. 
We came into the land. 

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I'll give sort of this overview 
very quickly. 

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About 1200 we came into the land
and then there was the United 

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Kingdom in approximately 722, 
the 10 northern tribes were 

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exiled by the Neo Assyrians lost
really essentially to the 

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vicissitudes of history until 
potentially today. 

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And then the southern tribes, 
the the tribes of Judah Benjamin

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were exiled in 586 initially in 
five a couple years earlier was 

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the first wave. 
And then in 586 the temple was 

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destroyed. 
The majority of the Jews there 

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was a sum left inside, but 
majority of the Jews were exiled

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to Babylon. 
And then 70 years later, the 

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ecumenic kings, which the first 
of which being Cyrus the Great 

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Cyrus the first captured the Neo
Babylonian Empire took over and 

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essentially started what, what 
we call, you know, what we refer

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to in the Galactus there as 
Parasuma died the the Persian 

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Empire. 
And one of the first things that

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Cyrus did when he ascended to 
the throne was he put out this 

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Cyrus decree, which is the sort 
of football sized little you can

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actually see it in the British 
Museum. 

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It's it's amazing. 
It's still there today. 

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It was not specific to the 
Jewish people. 

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It was to all the ethnic 
minorities that the Babylonians 

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had exiled. 
And he said, you know, you have 

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my full grants, my, my full 
permission and my financial 

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backing in some cases, as was, 
as was the case with us, to go 

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back to the land to rebuild your
temples to your native gods. 

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And assuming that you remain 
loyal to the Persian Empire and 

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pay your taxes and don't defy 
any of Persian law, gods, 

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etcetera, etcetera, you have 
religious freedom really to 

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worship your gods, which was 
unprecedented in many ways in 

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the ancient world. 
And, and for many, many reasons.

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The Persian Empire was really, 
you know, Cyrus the great, 

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Kishen McCain, who we say, 
right, like he really, he 

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deserved that title. 
But going back to what I was 

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saying in terms of different 
voices. 

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So, you know, the, the prophets 
prior to the return to the land,

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one of the things that the 
prophets did prior to the exile 

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during and you know, in the lead
up to the return to the land was

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they wanted to give the people 
hope. 

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And they wanted to give people 
an understanding that the exile 

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was not permanent and that they 
were going to return and that 

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things were going to get better.
What we call the Nivuot Nihama, 

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essentially, right? 
The the prophecies of comfort 

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the and, and it worked and they 
sort of helped Israel in the 

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exile understand what it means 
to worship God outside of the 

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land. 
You know, all these things that 

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for us as Jews the second time 
around in exile was sort of a 

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given. 
But for the Jews who left to 

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exile the first time around, who
had never been in exile from the

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days of Joshua, from the days 
they got into the land, had to 

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sort of wrap their heads around,
what does it mean to be an 

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Israelite or a Jewish person 
outside of my land if God is not

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imminent in the temple, if I 
can't just worship God there, 

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etcetera, etcetera. 
What does it mean that the Jews 

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have been scattered to all these
different lands? 

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And so one of the things that 
the prophets did is they 

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articulated almost this sort of,
you know, way of wrapping your 

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00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,920
head around the concept of exile
in a way that enabled them to 

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survive that moment in history 
and also go back to the lands 

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and anticipate a final return. 
So I'm mentioning this because 

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those prophecies were incredible
and they talked about a lot of 

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things. 
Jeremiah in chapter 29 and near 

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me Yahoo. 
So he talks about how the Jews 

231
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,760
should plant vineyards and have 
children and sort of live in 

232
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,080
this sort of nice relationship 
with their host country. 

233
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And recognize that God can 
answer them from wherever they 

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are, which sort of tapped into 
the theological questions that 

235
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were being raised. 
But most importantly, he said, 

236
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,480
and don't worry because after 70
years, God is going to bring you

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back to the land, right? 
And if we look, for example, at 

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Ezekiel, you know, Haskell has 
these unbelievable visions of 

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what the return is going to be 
when they go back to the land. 

240
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The Beitami Katash is going to 
be more explicit than anything 

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00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,000
they ever anticipated. 
And the 12 tribes are all going 

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00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,800
to be reunited and a Davidic 
king is going to be on the 

243
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throne. 
And all of these, you know, 

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among many other promises that 
were made. 

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00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,640
And then when the Jews do 
actually get back to the land in

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00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,000
539, which is where, you know, 
sort of going back to your 

247
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,720
question, things were very much 
not like the prophets had sort 

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00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,000
of talked about the the reality 
fell very, very short of those 

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00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,400
utopian visions, right. 
So when I was talking about 

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00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,360
contemporaneous voices and how 
we look at each State Fair 

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00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,360
almost in, you know, in context 
and ask what the author is 

252
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,720
answering. 
So for example, the Nivian, the 

253
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,040
that we're writing or speaking 
really prophesizing in the early

254
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,800
days of their return. 
We're talking about this idea 

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00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,960
about how the Jews who came back
thought that the exile actually 

256
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,800
hadn't ended. 
You know, they quote the the 

257
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,680
voices of the day 8 Lobach, 
right? 

258
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:20,360
The time just hasn't come yet. 
And they talk about that 

259
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,320
struggle. 
Ezra Nehemia is very, very clear

260
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,600
referring to that sort of 
question, you know, like, so is 

261
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,200
it really over? 
Is this actually the time to go 

262
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,120
back if things are not the way 
Huskel imagined? 

263
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,600
And Danielle, I'll just give 
you, you know, another example. 

264
00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:34,040
He's not a contemporaneous 
voice. 

265
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,240
He actually writes during the 
period of the Hasmenian revolt. 

266
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,040
So you're fast forwarding like 
almost 400 years has a scene 

267
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,520
where he opens up safer year 
Meow, who He opens up the scroll

268
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,840
of year Meow and he looks at it 
and he says, I don't understand 

269
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,080
year meow. 
You said 70 years. 

270
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,840
And here we are again during the
Hasmonean Greek period, here we 

271
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:50,560
are still suffering. 
How is it possible that the 

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00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,960
exile, you know, is still going 
on at the Malach? 

273
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,000
Gabriel comes and explains, It's
not 70, it's seven 70s. 

274
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,920
It's really 490 years. 
So I'm giving you all those 

275
00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,320
examples because what I think is
really important is that there 

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00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,320
was really a sense among many 
Jews that if things were not yet

277
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,160
perfect, the exile just didn't 
end right. 

278
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,080
And we just have to wait for it 
to sort of fall down from the 

279
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,720
sky, and then we can call it 
redemption. 

280
00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:13,880
Well, yeah. 
I didn't want to go there. 

281
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:14,480
Correct. 
Yeah. 

282
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,880
That's really important. 
It's we're, we're kind of 

283
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,440
falling into that trap today, 
like. 100% this sort of sense 

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00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,960
that Jewish history has to 
happen for us and I think going 

285
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,320
back to you know, what I said 
about the unique voice of Ezra 

286
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,400
Nahamya, Ezra Nahamya is very 
clear, you know, the very first 

287
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,960
pasuke ear Hashema through a 
Quraysh that Quraysh wasn't an 

288
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,440
accident of history that this, 
you know, powerful king ascended

289
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,240
to the throne and suddenly lets 
the Jews go back. 

290
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,760
Quraysh was a you know, a a 
marionette of God, which is the 

291
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,480
overall perspective of Tana 
wholesale right. 

292
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,080
Foreign actors are really just 
acting on behalf of God's 

293
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,480
broader vision for the Jewish 
people and the trajectory of 

294
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:48,920
Jewish history. 
But they they make it very 

295
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,280
clear, you know, that this is 
after the 70 years of of your 

296
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,800
Yahoo are over and it's the 
beginning of the return. 

297
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,640
And not only do they not even 
consider that this isn't the 

298
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,840
end, but they look at the 
imperfections of their day. 

299
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,880
They acknowledge the 
imperfections, they acknowledge 

300
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,400
the hardships. 
And but never once does that 

301
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,560
force them to call into question
whether this is real. 

302
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,560
The quite the opposite, right? 
What they made clear is we got 

303
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,560
back and now it is on us, the 
responsibility, the onus is on 

304
00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:17,520
us to bring about that ideal 
right to sort of make that ideal

305
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:18,920
happen. 
And so again, it's not a 

306
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:20,320
question of which is right and 
which is wrong, right. 

307
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,640
This is not at all, God forbid 
to say, you know, Hakai Zakaria,

308
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,480
they were prophets. 
And so they had a very, very 

309
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,400
different role than the 
historic, you know, the 

310
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,600
historiographer that was writing
Ezra Nachemia. 

311
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,720
But I, I think it's so important
when we study Tanakh to sort of 

312
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,520
listen to all of those different
voices. 

313
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,760
I think we have this inclination
and I think it comes on some 

314
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,240
level from, you know, Parsha 
Nuitt to sort of like, we like 

315
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,320
to synthesize all the different 
voices, like, oh, no, no, they 

316
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,800
all agree. 
It's just that he meant this and

317
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,240
he actually meant this. 
But actually, they're all in 

318
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,480
agreement. 
And I actually think one of the 

319
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,520
most important aspects of 
studying Tanakh is saying, no, 

320
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,280
no, hold on a second. 
Jews don't always agree. 

321
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,680
They never always agreed. 
I just because the words are 

322
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,680
just because they're 
representing a divine word still

323
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,320
doesn't mean they have to agree,
because the holistic truth is 

324
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,920
always composed of different 
aspects of, you know, of the 

325
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,360
truth. 
And so I think that's something 

326
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,120
that's that's really, really 
important to sort of pay 

327
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:05,360
attention to. 
And it really comes to the 

328
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,880
surface in Azernohemia, where 
there were so many different 

329
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,480
opposing voices speaking at the 
same time. 

330
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,880
Very well said. 
You, you articulated that so 

331
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,160
well. 
And I, I, I have to say that, 

332
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,560
you know, I, I always kind of 
from my own perspective, when I 

333
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:22,000
read the prophecies, I always 
see it as a call to action 

334
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,600
versus something passive that 
you're waiting for it to 

335
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,480
actually, like you said, fall 
from the sky and so on. 

336
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,120
Like it's, it, it seems like 
it's telling us to do something 

337
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,840
about it. 
Don't just wait, you know? 

338
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,040
So that's my intuitive reading 
of it, but yeah. 

339
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,160
You know, I think it's so 
important, though, that you say 

340
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,560
that because I think that, you 
know, again, I don't know how to

341
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:38,800
chalk it up. 
I don't know if it's because 

342
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,000
we're so long in exiled Jews 
felt powerless. 

343
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,000
And so there was a sense that 
the only way things can happen 

344
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,520
is if it falls from the sky. 
But I think what you're saying 

345
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:46,480
is really, really important, 
right? 

346
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,520
It's almost descriptive of or 
prescriptive of how we should 

347
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,800
behave in order to to bring 
those realities into the world, 

348
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,600
as opposed to just descriptive 
of what's going to one day 

349
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,200
happen when we wake up, you 
know, in the morning, it's just 

350
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,000
going to all be there for us. 
Well said, well said. 

351
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,600
So Ezra and Ahemia are 
unfortunately not among the most

352
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,840
widely studied books in Tanakh. 
Many Jews who learn Torah 

353
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,000
regularly may never study them 
even once in a lifetime. 

354
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,440
Why do you believe Ezra Nakamiya
are essential for Jewish 

355
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,720
learning? 
You know, I'll say, I think, you

356
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,640
know, it's interesting. 
I think it wasn't popular. 

357
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,320
You know, if you talk about 
other books in Tanakh, you walk 

358
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,920
into any Jewish institution, any
shul anywhere, and you say, tell

359
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,240
me about Miki Latas there. 
And again, of course, Miki Latas

360
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,360
there is a different example 
because it's read virtually once

361
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,000
a year. 
But you know, there's not a Jew 

362
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,200
in the world that won't be or 
not, I would say an educated, 

363
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,080
fairly educated Jew in the world
that won't be able to say, you 

364
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,320
know, well, the Jews, they lived
comfortably in this foreign 

365
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:39,720
empire. 
And then one morning a bad guy 

366
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,680
woke up and decided he wanted to
kill all the Jews. 

367
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,760
And the, you know, the leaders 
went along with it because they 

368
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,080
were apathetic and Hannah Aaron 
style, they just, you know, they

369
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,000
didn't stand up to the bad guys.
And, and so that's a story that 

370
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,120
everyone knows. 
And I think partially they know 

371
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,920
it because it resonated so 
deeply. 

372
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,680
We end up being drawn to the 
siren and Tanakh that speak to 

373
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,000
our current situation for 2000 
years. 

374
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,800
That story, you know, based, you
know, the story that you guys, 

375
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,480
the history you guys were just 
telling me a couple of minutes 

376
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,680
ago before the podcast started 
about your families in Iran. 

377
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,920
So that story is almost the the 
story that that use an exile 

378
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,400
experience for so long. 
But it's not just Mickey laptist

379
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:11,720
there. 
If you look at safer shof team. 

380
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,800
So it's asking about moral 
relativism and what happens when

381
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,560
there's no objective truth and 
what happens when we all sort of

382
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,880
believe that we have our own 
versions of, you know, of what 

383
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,680
is right and what is wrong and 
and how does that lead to the 

384
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,480
sort of, you know, crumbling or 
or disintegration of society and

385
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:28,800
of ethics and of morality 
wholesale. 

386
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,880
And so all these different 
books, safer Shmuel, how do you 

387
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,920
you know, what happens with 
power and how does power corrupt

388
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,720
all of those resonated? 
I think Ezra Nachemia is asking 

389
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,480
the question like we just 
mentioned a couple of minutes 

390
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,040
ago. 
OK, Now, what happens when Jews 

391
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,120
are allowed to go back to the 
land? 

392
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,760
How do you rebuild? 
How do you reconstitute what was

393
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,120
lost? 
What does Jewish identity look 

394
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,960
like? 
How do I thread the needle 

395
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,600
between recognizing that the 
centrality of Israel is really 

396
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,880
sort of first and foremost 
should be forced and foremost in

397
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,440
our consciousness and at the 
same time not wanting to 

398
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,920
peripheralize the diaspora and 
making sure that people hood is 

399
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,200
on par with, you know, the the 
centrality of a promised land? 

400
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,440
How do I maintain both of those 
truths simultaneously? 

401
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,400
Simultaneously? 
And so, you know, those are all 

402
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,119
really, really important 
questions we didn't have. 

403
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,839
I mentioned a couple of minutes 
ago that, you know, the 

404
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,560
prophets, you know, fantasized 
about a Davida king returning to

405
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,920
the throne, but Davida king 
didn't return to the throne. 

406
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,839
And one of the things the Jews 
had to learn was how do you 

407
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:19,640
navigate this new geopolitical 
reality? 

408
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,599
How do we interact with foreign 
actors? 

409
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,400
Is it possible that foreign 
actors are not always 

410
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,680
antagonistic the way, you know, 
Nabukhad, Netzar and Sanskara of

411
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,440
the Assyrians was or Paro or all
the other, you know, enemies in 

412
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:31,920
our history? 
And is it possible that maybe 

413
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,560
there's a new model with Khorace
here where God is saying that, 

414
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,480
you know, Jewish history can 
unfold in tandem with what the 

415
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,680
foreign actors are doing? 
Is there a way to create a 

416
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,440
relationship there that's almost
symbiotic in a way, right? 

417
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,440
Or, or certainly not 
antagonistic? 

418
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,120
And so all of those questions 
are questions that were being 

419
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:49,240
asked, You know, Jewish 
literacy. 

420
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,600
When we came back to the land, 
most people did not even know 

421
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,480
what the Torah was. 
They were not familiar. 

422
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,400
There's one scene where, say, 
it's one of the most important 

423
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,160
scenes really, in Ezra and 
Ahmia, where Ezra and Ahmia, the

424
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,360
twin leaders, are standing there
and they present the Torah to 

425
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,560
the people for the first time. 
And Ezra empowers the people to 

426
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,120
go back to the text and to learn
the text and familiarize 

427
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,320
themselves with it. 
And there's this unbelievably 

428
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,640
beautiful scene where, you know,
the people start crying. 

429
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,440
And it's almost like you think 
to yourself, like, why are they 

430
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:15,280
crying? 
This is a great day. 

431
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,760
And they start crying because 
they realized how far they had 

432
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,080
sort, of, you know, grown from 
the text and from what God wants

433
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,040
of them and from what they 
should be doing as, you know, 

434
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,480
this sort of as a people living 
in the land. 

435
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,040
And the scene is beautiful 
because the leaders then turn to

436
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,360
them and they say, no, no, no, 
don't cry. 

437
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,720
And if you think again, if you 
rewind in your minds to the sort

438
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,960
of, you know, authoritarian, you
know, to the sort of harsh 

439
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,120
critiques of the prophets in the
past, like you're doing wrong 

440
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,040
and you must repent. 
And here the leaders turn. 

441
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:40,000
So then they say, no, no, no, 
don't be sad, right? 

442
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,280
And they say get out candies, 
you know, give out candies and 

443
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,200
turn to your neighbors and 
celebrate because today they say

444
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,040
Khadwat Hashem hima ustem, 
right? 

445
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,760
Which again, I'm going to 
paraphrase really loosely. 

446
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,840
What they're saying is, you 
know, this is a day of 

447
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,240
celebration and of joy because 
you have the text of the Torah, 

448
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,640
everything you need in order to 
rehabilitate yourself as a 

449
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,880
people. 
It, you know, the, the secret of

450
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,240
Jewish literacy is that we can 
always rehabilitate ourselves as

451
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,920
long as we go back to the text, 
as long as we reconnect with 

452
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,600
those, you know, that that sort 
of divine imperative that was 

453
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,840
given to us as a people. 
And so Jewish literacy is 

454
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:13,840
something that's really 
important. 

455
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,080
By the way, just as you know, as
a side note, it's what's 

456
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,360
beautiful is that they, they see
in the Tsukim, it says that they

457
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,960
learn. 
Well, first of all, it says that

458
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,560
the next day they come back to 
learn more, right? 

459
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,120
Which is the sign of any good 
teacher who is trying to, to 

460
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:31,240
bring people back to the text is
if he presents this reality that

461
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,160
is, again, it's not harsh and 
it's not critique and it's not 

462
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:35,720
yelling at them for the places 
where they failed. 

463
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,280
He could have easily done that, 
that right, They were crying. 

464
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,480
And he could have said, yeah, 
you should be crying. 

465
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:39,720
You're a terrible people. 
He doesn't do that. 

466
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,440
He turns to them and he says, 
no, no, no, it's OK because you 

467
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,360
have at your fingertips 
everything you need, and you 

468
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:45,640
just have to do the work it 
takes. 

469
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,960
And the greatest sign of his 
success is that the next day 

470
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,240
they come back to learn more. 
But you know what? 

471
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,200
I mentioned a couple of minutes 
ago that there was absolutely no

472
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:53,680
Jewish literacy. 
A couple of second leader, it 

473
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,960
says they or a little bit later 
it says, and they found in the 

474
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,720
text that they should be sitting
in Sukhoth. 

475
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,920
And they hadn't done that since 
the days of Yoshua being none. 

476
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,920
Right, which if you're reading 
that, that's crazy. 

477
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,440
We're talking about the mid, you
know, 4 hundreds BCE saying that

478
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,920
the Israelites had not built 
Sukkot and sat in them since the

479
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,520
days they got into the land. 
That's that's almost this like 

480
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,840
totally throws, you know, up 
ends our, our our vision or our 

481
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,520
in our imagination, what Israel 
was that whole first temple 

482
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:19,800
period. 
But I think that's really, 

483
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,600
really important because Jewish 
literacy is key. 

484
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,520
So all of the topics that Ezra 
Nachemia deals with going back 

485
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,320
to your question are so relevant
today that, and it's almost 

486
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,000
like, you know, we're confused. 
We're sitting here, Jews in the 

487
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,640
Diaspora, Jews in Israel. 
What's the next step? 

488
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,560
How do we deal with enemies? 
How do we deal with our friends?

489
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,080
How do we get Jews back to 
feeling, you know, that they're 

490
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,440
part of a cohesive people 
despite the competing needs and 

491
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,760
wills of the Jews in Israel and 
the Jews in Diaspora, It's all 

492
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,640
there for us, right? 
We just have to read the book. 

493
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,680
It's it, it's like a guide book 
that's sitting there waiting for

494
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,000
us to just peruse it and and 
find the answers we're looking 

495
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,480
for. 
Amazing. 

496
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,760
We're, we're, we're in that 
we're not exact, but we're in 

497
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,440
like this situation where from 
1948, we've had to land again, 

498
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,240
yet we're also in the diaspora. 
It's like the same dynamic. 

499
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:08,680
It's playing over the dynamic 
that was going on with Ezran. 

500
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,680
It's, it's sort of it's, it's, 
it's a shame that the book of 

501
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,640
Izra is not, is not being used 
as a catalyst to, to enlighten 

502
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,200
our present day situations 
because like you're saying, 

503
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,120
it's, it's the same dynamic. 
We're in that same dynamic and 

504
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,760
it's just there's, there's so 
much there. 

505
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,280
And in the spirit of that, we 
wanted to ask you if you could 

506
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,520
discuss your chapter. 
There's a lot of amazing 

507
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,880
chapters so I I was only able to
choose one for time constraints,

508
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,880
but can you discuss your chapter
on what is a Jew, Specifically 

509
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,480
the question of Jewish identity 
and how it is addressed in the 

510
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,600
book of Izzah? 
Yeah, sure. 

511
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:44,360
Thanks for picking the thorniest
chapter to to cover in 5 minutes

512
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,320
or less. 
Take your time. 

513
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,320
On it. 
Take your time on it. 

514
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,720
No, it's, I'm saying it's, you 
know, it's, I don't want to be, 

515
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,440
I don't want anything here to be
misconstrued. 

516
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,960
It's not a simple chapter. 
You know, it's, it's not, I 

517
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,200
would say it's not a simple 
topic to, to tackle. 

518
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,520
It's, you know, for, for lots of
reasons. 

519
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,720
But I would say in short, what 
happens in the days of 

520
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,160
azernohemia? 
And this is something that, 

521
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,240
again, we don't think about 
because we kind of imagine that 

522
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,520
there was this, you know, 
monolithic approach from Sinai 

523
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,520
or from, you know, the days of 
Abraham until now. 

524
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,480
What is a Jew? 
And that it's always been what 

525
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,760
it is. 
But the, the parameters for how 

526
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,040
we define who was a Jew is 
something that's actually always

527
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,880
been evolving in Jewish history.
And the first time that that 

528
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,240
question is really asked is in 
the days of Ezra Nachemia. 

529
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,920
There's a scene when when the 
Jews come back and they're 

530
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,160
starting to rebuild and lay the 
foundation group of Jews come 

531
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,920
and they ask, you know, could we
be? 

532
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,560
We want to be involved. 
And they explained that their 

533
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,560
history is that they were people
who were moved into Israel, just

534
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,200
like the Assyrians moved the 10 
tribes out. 

535
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,440
So they didn't leave the land 
empty. 

536
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,480
They moved other ethnic 
minorities from other areas in 

537
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,600
the Near East into that area of 
northern Israel. 

538
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,840
And these people come and they 
claim and they say, you know, 

539
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,600
we've been worshipping God. 
You'd K Vavque since we were 

540
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,600
moved in in the 8th century PCE 
And we live in the land and we 

541
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,480
want to and we want to help you 
build the temple right now the, 

542
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,720
the people who are building 
Zurbabel and Sheshmatzar, they 

543
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,200
turn to them and they say, uh 
huh, Yahad, right? 

544
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,320
No, no, no. 
And and yahad sounds nice and 

545
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,440
sweet. 
All you know, in the very 

546
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,200
beginning until we remember that
yahad in the second temple was a

547
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,520
sectarian term, right? 
It's not saying yahad all of us 

548
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,200
together. 
It's saying no, yahad us because

549
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,400
we're in the club and you're 
out, which is a, a really, 

550
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,040
really hard scene to to read. 
And the question there obviously

551
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,200
is why are they not being 
allowed? 

552
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,840
So, you know, and the question 
really the reason the question 

553
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,560
is relevant is because if you go
back to the earlier phase in 

554
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,440
Jewish history, really from the 
days we became a people until 

555
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,800
the destruction, to be 
considered a Jew, you had to or 

556
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,640
I would say not a Jew, a Gare, 
meaning a stranger who is 

557
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,920
considered a part of the 
community, not Gare in the 

558
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:38,960
modern. 
Yeah, good job, you told. 

559
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,120
Me, right, correct, right. 
So even that's sort of a 

560
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:43,360
rabbinic distinction because 
later on in Jewish history 

561
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:44,880
conversion is introduced into 
the mix. 

562
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,400
But in the days of, in the early
phases of, of, you know, 

563
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,480
biblical history, we didn't 
distinguish between those types.

564
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,720
We said if you live, if you are 
not genealogically Jewish, but 

565
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,360
you live in our community, then 
ultimately down the line, again,

566
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:58,760
there was no separation of 
church and state. 

567
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,440
So if you live in our community,
it means in theory, you're 

568
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,160
following, not necessarily all 
taryaka meets both, but you are 

569
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,960
certainly respecting and 
following the rules that would 

570
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,920
in any way infringe on the 
integrity of the community of 

571
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,440
religiously speaking. 
You can't worship idols. 

572
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,920
You can't, you know, break 
Shabbat. 

573
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,000
You can't, you don't you know, 
the the best example to sort of 

574
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,160
clarify what the obligations 
were and were not is if a gear, 

575
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,400
it says if a gear wants to bring
a Corbin Pesoc, meaning they're 

576
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,760
not obligated to bring a Corbin 
Pesoc, but if a gear wants to, 

577
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,880
then he has to 1st circumcise 
himself, right? 

578
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,280
So it's sort of what it really 
speaks about is you, you are 

579
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,600
living in our midst. 
You have to maintain, like I 

580
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,600
mentioned, the sort of 
religious, spiritual integrity 

581
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,240
of this community. 
You're not necessarily obligated

582
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,320
in all 613. 
So, but you're considered a part

583
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,520
of the community for all intents
and purposes and to not goes out

584
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,760
of its way to make clear Lotto 
net a gear, right? 

585
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,240
We can't treat them like second 
class citizens. 

586
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,640
We have to make sure that, you 
know, by they're necessarily 

587
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,640
vulnerable because they may not 
have the genealogical 

588
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,920
connection. 
And so we have to make sure that

589
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,840
they are treated fairly and 
treated benevolently, etcetera, 

590
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,240
etcetera. 
And so when these people come 

591
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,880
and they say we want to build 
with you according to first 

592
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,480
temple or early phase, early 
biblical phase qualifications, 

593
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,160
they should have been allowed to
build, right? 

594
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,120
They should have been the, the 
response of Sheshbatar and 

595
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:04,840
Zubaval should have been OK, 
sure, great. 

596
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,120
The more the merrier, especially
because they were limited in 

597
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:09,480
manpower and limited in 
resources and, you know, for all

598
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,000
the obvious reasons. 
So the question why they didn't 

599
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,640
let them is a really, really 
important question. 

600
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,960
So, you know, there are some 
that argue based on the story 

601
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,320
in, in Seifer al ahem, that 
talks about when these people 

602
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,800
originally moved in that they 
were worshipping idols and they 

603
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,280
weren't really, you know, 
exclusively loyal to God. 

604
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,840
But, you know, I sort of pushed 
back at that when people claim 

605
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:27,960
that. 
And I say, well, neither were 

606
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,480
the Jews, right? 
Neither was Israel, which is why

607
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,760
we were exiled to begin with. 
And so it's to say you're, you 

608
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,680
don't qualify because you were 
behaving badly in the 6th 

609
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,040
century BC or the 7th century BC
is is kind of a double standard.

610
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,800
By the time Israel got the Jews 
got back, they wanted to join, 

611
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,880
they were saying, we, our 
staunch monotheists, we want to 

612
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,520
build a view. 
And so it, it really raises that

613
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,880
question, why were they excluded
rather than included? 

614
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,360
And it taps into something which
it's interesting, it's it's not 

615
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,560
particularly overt in Azerna 
Khamia. 

616
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,240
And yet it's threaded through 
the entire narrative, which is 

617
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,160
that at this phase in Jewish 
history, the leaders decided 

618
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,520
that instead of a Jew being 
defined by geographically by the

619
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,680
borders of the land, assuming 
you're in and you live here. 

620
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,720
I think about roots, the 
quintessential foreigner living 

621
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,320
in our midst, She said, Amir 
Hami, your nation is my nation. 

622
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,240
Elokaya, right, Ameka. 
Hello, Kai. 

623
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:13,960
Bashar. 
Bashar. 

624
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,840
Which is in a nutshell, I'm 
gonna live in your land and 

625
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,640
worship your God. 
Why this phase in the second 

626
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,440
period, you know, the second 
temple, the leaders were saying 

627
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,640
that's no longer enough. 
Geography can no longer be the 

628
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,120
defining feature, which seems 
really exclusivist and obnoxious

629
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,920
and you could say xenophobic and
throw in all the other 

630
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,040
terminology that that many 
scholars actually do until you 

631
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,800
actually look at the bigger 
picture and take a step back. 

632
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,920
Because in the in this phase in 
history, for the very first 

633
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,360
time, we have diaspora, right? 
So if I say you're a Jew, if you

634
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:44,520
live within the borders of the 
land, majority of the Jewish 

635
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,600
people were not in the land 
majority of the people buying. 

636
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,240
Everybody outside of the land, 
that's right, that's living in, 

637
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:52,280
in Babylonia and everywhere. 
Else correct, Babylonia, Egypt 

638
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,320
problem, correct. 
So you know, it seems exclusive 

639
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,640
as in the micro, if you're only,
you know, if you're zooming the 

640
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,520
camera in on Israel, if you take
if you pan out and you say hold 

641
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,400
on a second, there's an entirety
of a Jewish people and what the 

642
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:04,880
leaders were really concerned 
with. 

643
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,760
And again, if you use the 10 
tribes as a contrast, 10 tribes 

644
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,200
were exiled in the 8th century, 
never to be heard from again, 

645
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,240
right. 
So what the leaders understood 

646
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,520
is that if they don't actively 
redefine who is a Jew to include

647
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,880
all of the Jews that had gone 
out to the Diaspora or what they

648
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,040
risk is either to completely do 
different Jewish people with 

649
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,720
different qualifying features or
losing them all together. 

650
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,080
And that was something that the 
leaders, you know, again, it is 

651
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,200
not an easy decision. 
And I'm not saying it was PC in 

652
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,000
the day. 
It certainly wasn't. 

653
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,880
And one of the things that I 
think is most fascinating about 

654
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,920
Ezron economy is that, you know,
it presents the this new 

655
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,120
approach and this sort of, you 
know, watershed as something 

656
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:37,160
that was important to the 
leaders. 

657
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,920
And also makes clear that there 
was a lot of pushback from the 

658
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,120
from the people living during 
that time, that how could you do

659
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:42,960
this? 
And this is unfair. 

660
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,080
And so that dialogue that ensues
in the safer, I think takes a 

661
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,280
consideration or acknowledges 
how difficult that move was. 

662
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,760
And also from the perspective of
the author, how important from 

663
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,400
almost, you know, not to sound 
dramatic, but from an 

664
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,560
existential perspective, that 
change was, you know, we were 

665
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,160
talking before about voices. 
So the, you know, one of the 

666
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,600
much later verses that's 
attributed to Ishayao, but was 

667
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,880
written really in probably in 
the post exilic period where he 

668
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,360
envisions the the famous, you 
know, song that we sing Bhagavi 

669
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,320
otimel har khadshi, right, Vasi 
maktimawehti Lati, where it 

670
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:13,720
talks about this, you know, 
what's going to happen in the 

671
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,320
future and what what he 
envisions is that all the people

672
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,640
are going to come to the temple,
right? 

673
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,920
It says it says baits Vilai 
Karela whole Hamin right that 

674
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,160
the temple is going to be this 
place where we where all the 

675
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:24,960
nations could come and and 
participate. 

676
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,120
And so that goes back to the 
way, you know, bringing it all 

677
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:28,800
full circle. 
The different voices you have 

678
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,800
Ezra Nakamya saying, uh, 
absolutely not. 

679
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,400
The borders need to be 
hermetically sealed. 

680
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,800
We are in a time right now where
the Jewish people's existence is

681
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,280
fragile, where we really need to
rehabilitate ourselves, where we

682
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,120
need to understand who we are 
and redefine who a Jew is in 

683
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,440
order to maintain and again, 
cohesion and and and a strong 

684
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,600
sense of Jewish identity. 
And then you have the other 

685
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,760
voices saying, hold on a second,
but that's not us, right? 

686
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,160
We are a universalist people. 
We are a people that appreciate 

687
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,800
all humanity. 
I want to give everyone equal 

688
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,960
opportunity to connect with God.
What I think is most fascinating

689
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,800
is perhaps not even how the 
debate ends in as Anacamia, 

690
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,200
because it kind of leaves us on 
a cliffhanger. 

691
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,480
What we hear is the leaders want
this. 

692
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,240
The people were pushing back. 
What I think is most 

693
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,560
fascinating, if we Fast forward 
in Jewish history, ultimately 

694
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,720
down the line, what we have are 
is an understanding that yes, 

695
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,520
you need to be genealogically 
Jewish. 

696
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,000
That's really important. 
And at the same time, if there 

697
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,040
are people who genuinely want to
belong to our people and they 

698
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,040
take it upon themselves and they
showed that they really believe,

699
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,440
buy into the Jewish project, so 
to speak. 

700
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,920
So down the line, what we have 
is the introduction of the 

701
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,000
concept of conversion in 
rabbinic Judaism. 

702
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,000
To me, that speaks to everything
we need to know about Jewish 

703
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,560
history, right? 
You have very, very staunch 

704
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,760
positions on each side, each 
side having its really important

705
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,440
points and it's really valid 
position. 

706
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,640
And then recognizing that 
ultimately the resilience of the

707
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,880
Jewish people and our ability 
to, to maintain that, that 

708
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,320
strength and that integrity 
actually comes from our ability 

709
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,480
to take into consideration all 
those different voices and 

710
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,560
somehow find a way to, you know,
to, to, I don't want to call it 

711
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,040
compromise, but to find a way to
integrate those different voices

712
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,800
for the sake of, of, you know, 
of what we're trying to build. 

713
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,960
So you know, who is a Jew is one
of the really important topics 

714
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,040
in the in the period and it's 
it's worth looking at. 

715
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,800
Beautiful. 
There's like nothing left to say

716
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,960
after she finishes. 
You say everything like there's 

717
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,040
it's it's it's a complete when 
you talk. 

718
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,520
That was that was amazing. 
That was a very important and 

719
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,600
and fantastic. 
Do you have anything to add? 

720
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:21,320
I do not. 
I do not. 

721
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,040
Yeah. 
Questions. 

722
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,760
Nothing else. 
That see, that's also a 

723
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,120
compliment to there's no 
questions that ultimately that 

724
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,680
you've explained yourself so 
well that there's really nothing

725
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,520
left to follow up with. 
But thank you so much. 

726
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:37,040
Amazing. 
You offhand you you had a you 

727
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:42,520
did a podcast regarding Jewish 
identity in the in the world of 

728
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,040
anti-Semitism. 
And we haven't listened to it 

729
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,440
yet, but the topic is so 
important. 

730
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,160
And I was wondering if you can 
give a little bit of insight 

731
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,360
into that, your thoughts on this
idea of today's issues of Jewish

732
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,320
identity in an anti-Semitic 
world, if there's something that

733
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,400
you can say about that. 
Yeah. 

734
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,920
So you know, again, 
anti-Semitism in the modern 

735
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,360
perspective is not my it's not 
my wheelhouse, you know, 

736
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,240
analyzing it historically. 
That's certainly not my area of 

737
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,160
expertise. 
I will say from the perspective 

738
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,040
of Tanakh, if we're going to 
sort of just, you know, circle 

739
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,200
back because sometimes, you 
know, the way Tanakh presents 

740
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,800
things almost seems overly 
simplistic and hard to buy into 

741
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,600
in modern times. 
But, you know, if we look at the

742
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,320
fact that we're still here 
thousands of years later. 

743
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:24,720
So then there has to be 
something to it, right? 

744
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,960
There has to be some, some 
deeper secret that that again, 

745
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,080
if if we look at it and it 
almost appears too simplistic, 

746
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,560
maybe it is that simple. 
Tanak is very clear about, I 

747
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,480
would say two things. 
And this does tie into Ezra 

748
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,520
Nachemia, you know, because 
exile is a theme that looms so 

749
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,920
large in Tanak. 
Exile is sort of there from the 

750
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,400
beginning all the way through 
the, you know, through today in 

751
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,920
modern times, in our history, 
there's this sense that God 

752
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,920
chose a land and that's where we
belong. 

753
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,640
And I actually mentioned this in
one of my early books, right? 

754
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,560
If you imagine a hypothetical 
God could have found when he 

755
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,960
chooses Abraham, he says, you 
know, Abraham, I'm choosing you 

756
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,440
from the land of or, and I'm 
asking you to move to the center

757
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,280
because this is the chosen land.
And we all just take that as a 

758
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,680
given that there's a this sort 
of move from the periphery into 

759
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:05,840
the the center where God 
chooses. 

760
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,920
But, you know, we can ask the 
question. 

761
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,240
God could have easily found 
Abraham. 

762
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,040
Let's say he was the greatest 
guy of his generation and said, 

763
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,880
OK, Abraham, you're the best. 
Stay where you are in or, and 

764
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,680
I'm going to build a great 
nation from you, right. 

765
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,920
Or in the reverse hypothetical, 
God could have found a really 

766
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,440
great guy in Kanaan and said, 
you're awesome and this is the 

767
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,000
land I chose. 
And so I want you to stay here 

768
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,720
and build a great nation, but 
Hashem doesn't Hashem says, I 

769
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,840
want you to move to the land 
and, and build a great nation 

770
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,040
there. 
And so from the beginning, 

771
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,640
there's this sense of movement 
from the outside in. 

772
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,040
It's almost like there's this 
centripetal pull from the 

773
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,160
outside moving in. 
But what I think is really, 

774
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,320
really important for us to 
remember in in modern times in 

775
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,240
particular, and I think this 
applies equally to to the 

776
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,440
Diaspora and specifically to the
Jews in Israel, is that the 

777
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,080
promise of the Jewish people and
the lands are two promises that 

778
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,720
are inextricably linked, right? 
That's, that's always been the 

779
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,520
case, which is why for thousands
of years, even though we were 

780
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,080
outside the land, there was this
desire and it was articulated in

781
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,680
our liturgy and in our, you 
know, in our, on our Hagim to 

782
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,760
constantly return to the land. 
That said, our existence on the 

783
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,840
land is always utterly 
contingents on our behavior, 

784
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,040
right? 
We don't come to the lands and 

785
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,880
then own the lands. 
We come to the lands and then we

786
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,720
earn our right to live in this 
place that God promised, where 

787
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,440
he promises to have extra divine
protection and, and where we 

788
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,720
have access to him, right. 
However you want to define that 

789
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,200
if we behave according to the 
really according to the rules 

790
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,120
outlined in ethical monotheism, 
monotheism is not just about 

791
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,400
whittling God down to 1. 
Monotheism is about saying that 

792
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,240
this one God who is supreme and 
you know, omnipotent and 

793
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,040
omniscient is choosing you as a 
people, not because you're the 

794
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,440
best, but because he's choosing 
you to to take upon yourself 

795
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,120
this added responsibility of 
following the the precept of 

796
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,840
this Torah to build a society, 
not just about worshiping God 

797
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,280
and bringing sacrifices or 
whatever the case may be, but to

798
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,720
build a society that is fair and
ethical and just and in that way

799
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,720
worship God right. 
The the sort of misnomer that 

800
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,680
there's been a Damla have their 
own being a Damla Macomb. 

801
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,320
They're not separate categories.
We worship God through creating 

802
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,480
a fair and just and ethical 
society. 

803
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,200
And so our ability to exist on 
that land and to really, I would

804
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,960
say, become the fullest version 
of ourselves as Jewish people is

805
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,000
ultimately what the Tanakh and 
what that covenantal 

806
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,840
relationship is all about. 
And so, you know, again, I'm not

807
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,600
addressing specifically Jew 
anti-Semitism, although I think 

808
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,360
anti-Semitism or you know, in 
the language of Bayyekrans 

809
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,440
Varum, it's about the enemies 
attacking us and the enemies. 

810
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,760
I think all of that comes down 
boils down to the question not 

811
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,000
so much how do we fight 
anti-Semitism on campus and how 

812
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,280
do we, you know, sign petitions 
and make sure that the mayor 

813
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,679
isn't doing something? 
I think these are the times in 

814
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,560
Jewish history and and very 
important caveat on putting 

815
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,199
theodicy on the side, right. 
I'm being, I'm not certainly not

816
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,120
blaming Jews for the bad things 
that befall us. 

817
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,920
Sometimes bad things just 
happen. 

818
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,280
But if there is any, if we do 
have any agency, and I'm not 

819
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,000
taking away the, you know, the 
political activism and the 

820
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,920
activism and social media, all 
of that is important. 

821
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,480
But if we sort of whittle it 
down to its most basic 

822
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,160
components from the perspective 
of Tanakh, I think Tanakh says 

823
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,520
this is the moment in history 
where we look inside, where we 

824
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,360
reorient ourselves with, you 
know, excuse me, who are we as a

825
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:04,680
people and what are we supposed 
to be doing? 

826
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,720
And if God did choose us to be, 
you know, what later Naveem call

827
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:09,840
a light on to the nation. 
So what does that exactly mean 

828
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,680
to be a light on to the nation? 
So what does that mean to 

829
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,600
remain, you know, loyal and and 
and authentic to to who we are? 

830
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,400
I always love to quote someone 
said this actually after October

831
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,720
7th, my neighbor said this to me
and it totally, you know, he 

832
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:23,560
said the turning point and Miki 
left us there. 

833
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,960
The enemy said, I'm Akhad 
Mifuzar Mufu Rabe and let's kill

834
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,560
them and because they're 
different and they're other and 

835
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,240
they don't behave according to 
the rules and they think they're

836
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,480
and the turning point is when 
Esther says Lehknos, it's called

837
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,040
how you dim, right? 
Gather them together and fast 

838
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,880
for me and let's reorient 
ourselves. 

839
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,000
What does it mean? 
What is our goal really, you 

840
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,840
know, in this world at this 
point in history? 

841
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,200
And I think that on some level, 
if we can do that, and this goes

842
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,440
back to everything Azernochemia 
talks about, you know, they get 

843
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,440
back to the land. 
The question is not just how do 

844
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,440
we build and what type of 
infrastructure do we need and 

845
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,920
what type of political, you 
know, leadership do we need. 

846
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,400
The I think the question really 
underpinning the entire safe air

847
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,040
is how do we make sure that this
time around we get to stay 

848
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,720
right? 
That's that's really the 

849
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:05,840
question. 
That's the question choosing 

850
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,720
Israel should be asking. 
It's the question choosing 

851
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,640
Diaspora should be asking, you 
know, sort of with an eye 

852
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,720
towards Israel and also like as 
an eye towards peoplehood. 

853
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,200
And, you know, again, as as 
simple as it sounds, sometimes, 

854
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:19,280
you know, the simple truths are 
the are the, you know, are the 

855
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,880
most important ones that we have
to sort of get back to peel away

856
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,840
all the other layers that that 
sort of drown out those those 

857
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,600
really clear, I think pieces. 
Yeah, I think one of the most 

858
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,680
important points you made is 
about, you know, I, I see this 

859
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,760
about our the saddest day of the
year in, in Jewish history is to

860
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,960
Shabab. 
And it's not a day that you 

861
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,640
would, you'd imagine that we 
would blame, you know, the 

862
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,200
Romans or whatever enemy attacks
us. 

863
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,520
But it's never, it's almost 
never mentioned. 

864
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,240
It's almost, it's almost always 
about what did we do wrong and 

865
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:54,640
how can we fix it, right? 
What would we, what would we do 

866
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,720
today if we so we talked about 
like, you know, we don't want to

867
00:36:57,720 --> 00:36:59,360
have baseless hatred and all 
that. 

868
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,160
That's always the message that 
we're teaching. 

869
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,840
And I think that that it's, it 
really says a lot about, you 

870
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,440
know, what, what we are and who 
we are. 

871
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,600
I think it's an amazing thing 
because it's, there's no blaming

872
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,120
involved. 
It's, it's always about, it's 

873
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,920
not blaming others, but it's 
always looking at ourselves 

874
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,240
saying what can we do to make 
things better? 

875
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,480
So to me, I I think that that 
just as to what you're saying, 

876
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,760
yeah. 
So this is this is amazing. 

877
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,680
This is beautiful. 
So it's such an important thing 

878
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,080
that you just said sorry to 
build on it, but it's, it's just

879
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:30,760
so, so critical, right? 
There's sort of, I think 

880
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,760
especially now in the West, you 
know, there's a competition for 

881
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,760
who's the biggest victim. 
And this happens on the minor 

882
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,440
scales. 
You know, TikTok happens and 

883
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,640
Judaism was never, we were never
about taking pride in being 

884
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:40,920
victims. 
Like you're saying, right? 

885
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,040
It's not, we're not looking at 
who did this to us. 

886
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,320
We're looking at how do we 
empower ourselves to create a 

887
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,280
different future for ourselves? 
And that's like one of the most 

888
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,640
important, I think, takeaways. 
So thank you so much for saying 

889
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:51,360
that. 
That's really. 

890
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,960
Before we let you go, are you 
working on any other projects? 

891
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:56,920
Oh, thank you. 
Yeah. 

892
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,400
I, I actually am. 
I'm working now on a project I 

893
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,840
am taking. 
You know, I'm really excited 

894
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,480
about it. 
Actually. 

895
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,680
I would say it's a little more 
Ezra Nachemia sort of leans, a 

896
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,000
little scholarly leans, you 
know, in the more academic 

897
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,160
realm, definitely accessible. 
But, you know, I don't want to, 

898
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,080
everyone should read it. 
But this other book is really I 

899
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,520
want to try to draw in people 
who are perhaps less versed in 

900
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,680
Tanakh or less steeped in it. 
And what I do is I try to, I 

901
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,240
actually made a a long list, 
this is my Corona project, a 

902
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:26,280
long list of different ideas in 
Jewish biblical thoughts, some 

903
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:27,960
of which, for example, you know,
we talked about today. 

904
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,800
And my other, my other love is, 
is talking about women in Tanakh

905
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,400
and how Tanakh is actually 
gender neutral and actually not 

906
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,520
even the least bit misogynistic,
the way that many would like to 

907
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,640
interpret it. 
And I try to weave the, the, and

908
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,440
what I do is I have the 
different women in Tanakh 

909
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,280
speaking about the different, 
these different, they're sort of

910
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,120
the mouthpiece to discuss these 
different ideas in Jewish 

911
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,800
biblical thought. 
It's really meant for, for, you 

912
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,720
know, lay people. 
My, my dream is that it'll, 

913
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:55,720
it'll get people back to 
learning the text after each 

914
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:57,200
chapter. 
I hope to have sort of a series 

915
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,400
of questions where it can lead 
into a discussion group and 

916
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,120
really just engender learning in
a a sort of sophisticated and 

917
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,800
thoughtful manner. 
You know, like a lot like what 

918
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,400
we spoke about today. 
What were the questions that 

919
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,240
that these are wrestling with? 
And I, I think it's so important

920
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:11,880
to get people, you know, it goes
back to what we were saying a 

921
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,200
minute ago about Jewish 
literacy, right? 

922
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,560
That's in my mind, hopefully a 
gateway back into who we are as 

923
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:17,480
a people. 
What are we trying to 

924
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,040
accomplish? 
You know, instead of living in 

925
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,920
fear, living from a place of, 
you know, we are this people 

926
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,280
that, that have a lot to offer 
the world. 

927
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,560
And, and how do we, how do we 
reorient ourselves with those, 

928
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,080
with those missions and with 
those ideals? 

929
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,440
That sounds amazing. 
We we'd love to have you on to 

930
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,320
the Skype. 
Whenever. 

931
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,160
Oh, thank you. 
I'm your publisher and I'm back.

932
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,720
All right, I don't think you'll 
have so much of a problem. 

933
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,160
Thank you. 
No, we had, we had actually Gila

934
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,760
fine on. 
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, she's. 

935
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,000
Amazing of, of a maggot. 
And she she, she had a she has a

936
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,000
book called Madwoman and the 
Rabbi's Attic. 

937
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,520
Yeah, of course. 
And basically they're doing the 

938
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,960
same thing that you're trying to
do it, but you're doing it with 

939
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,520
Tanf and she's doing it with. 
It with and. 

940
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,160
And and it was, yeah. 
And it, it's just I, it's so 

941
00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:59,440
important. 
It's so important. 

942
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,800
We need more of this. 
And there's just, it's been, 

943
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,120
there's been an incredible 
explosion of, of. 

944
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,080
Women voices right now you have 
a with yours with with Gila 

945
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,360
Fine, Erica Brown. 
Al Ziegler. 

946
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,520
Al Ziegler, there's so many, so 
many Maka Simkovich, so many. 

947
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,880
And you know, we just we hope 
that you can you can develop the

948
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,520
next generation of incredible 
women to come and and and bring 

949
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,120
their voices and perspectives 
into Tanakh, which is incredibly

950
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,880
needed. 
Thank. 

951
00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,000
You guys for giving us the 
platform, that's really 

952
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,840
important. 
Thank you so much. 

953
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,160
We really appreciate it. 
Thank you. 

954
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,960
Thank you for coming. 
Yeah, Leibowitz again, Ezra. 

955
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,880
Nachemia Retrogade Revolution. 
Sorry about that. 

956
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,040
What do we do? 
Oh. 

957
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,040
No. 
What's that called? 

958
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,240
I knocked off the computer. 
Sorry one second. 

959
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,080
I apologize. 
I'm sorry about that Retrogade 

960
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,160
Revolution. 
Please come, please buy the 

961
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,040
book. 
And we wish you much success in 

962
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,520
all your future endeavors. 
Hope to have you on again, and 

963
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:56,640
we appreciate it. 
And Javotov. 

964
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,160
Thank you so much to you guys 
too. 

965
00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:58,640
Thank you.