Welcome to Judaism demystified a podcast for the perplexed.
We are joined by Pastor dumisani, Washington.
Pastor Washington is the founder and CEO of The Institute for
Black solidarity with Israel. I had BSI.
He's also the former diversity Outreach coordinator for the
over 10 million member Christians, United, for Israel,
cufi. Having served at cufi, nearly
seven years. Dumisani is a pastor
professional musician, graduate of the San Francisco,
Conservatory of Music and author, whose latest book is the
second edition of Zionism and the black church.
Why standing with Israel will be a defining issue for Christians
of color in the 21st century while on staff with cufi
dumisani, organized multi-ethnic, Christian support
for Israel from across the country and helped launch Cufi
Africa to engage with the many Israel supporters and honorary
cufi members from South Africa, Zimbabwe Togo Ghana Nigeria
Ethiopia, Kenya Morocco, and more to me.
Son is also the creator of cof is Mizrahi project.
A short film project that tells the story of over 850,000 Jewish
refugees from North Africa and the Middle East as part of his
effort to initiate the Mizrahi Project to me signing was
featured in the 2016 Prager. You video.
Why are there still Palestinian refugees?
Which has received millions of views?
Worldwide. Dumisani is also the founder and
director of the Hebrew project artist.
Thp a music group that performs gospel music with Hebrew and
English lyrics in an artistic stand with Israel and the Jewish
people T hp's. Latest release is entitled o
Jerusalem, do me Sonny and his wife Valerie have been married
33 years and have six children and two grandchildren.
They live near Charlotte, North Carolina.
Without further Ado, Pastor dumisani, Washington.
Thank you for joining the Judaism demystified podcast as
the pastor. I want to know your thoughts on
Zionism and why that's important to you.
I don't often find that that's something that our even, our
friends are non-jewish friends. In America are usually
supporting the Jewish cause and standing up against
anti-Semitism, but you are also a big proponent of Zionism.
So I'm just curious to know. I see the book behind, you
zionists. The black church, you tell us a
little bit about your background and why this is so important to
you. Well, both in been as a
Christian who's raised up in a very pretty about household from
the segregated South. I was born in Little Rock
Arkansas. I grew up in California, but my
family's from Little Rock Arkansas.
And so, we were very faithful members of King Solomon.
Baptist Church in a what I call off at a very traditional black
Christian. Vain.
If you will, there's a lot of spiritual Zionism terms of the
music, scriptures the identification with Israel.
Moses, the whole journey From Slavery to Freedom, all of those
things, very, very strong parallels.
And so, for Zionism be understanding.
Obviously, it's a loaded word, right over all this time, for
some people has a lot of negative connotations
everything, but in its basic form of it being The Liberation
movement and struggle of the Jewish people.
The re-establishment of the Jewish homeland, and yes, that
I'm a Christian zionists in that regard and that I believe that
Israel belongs to the Jewish people and that it is their
Homeland racist. It is the Jewish homeland that
broader part of Zionism, which throughout particularly black
American history and a certain amount of pan-african history,
there has been this allusion to a Zionism that speaks to our
restoration, a reclaiming, those types of things, everyone from
It's Garvey to even people may or may not know this Malcolm X
even referred to Zionism and compared to pan-africanism they
were talking about how Zionism rally the Jewish Community
around the world around this focus of a rebirth of their
Homeland and how something like that.
Could be very beneficial for people of African descent.
So I'm both levels both in terms of is the biblical part of it
but also in terms of what it has meant even to my people for
centuries very much. Much.
I'm a proponent of Zionism. Yes.
So in terms of the black community, I find that a lot of
people don't even know today or there.
So there's some confusion around what it is.
That defines us as Jews. Like, what is it?
What is our identity? I'm curious to know what, what
is it that you're doing in your community?
Let's say to raise awareness, and maybe clarify some of the
misinformation that's out there. Like we saw recently with Kanye
West, And with Kyrie Irving, there's kind of this attack on
Jewish identity and to the extreme even more of an extreme.
You see with a fair can and the Nation of Islam, always pointing
to the fact that this, there's a the khazar theory that the Jews
are not legitimate Jews and he actually said that sephardim are
the true Jews. He said some wacky stuff and I
would like to hear, you know what, your response to all that
is. So let's it several different.
And things. So let's try to unpack it as
much as we can. Let's start with the identity of
the Jewish people. Both in our organization, The
Institute for Black, solidarity with Israel.
And in my book, I explain that there is essentially two
concepts when it comes to the Jewish people, those who are
from the tribe of Israel, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the
descendants of the Patriarchs, right?
And then, of course, those who, who can convert, right?
Who could actually do to a conditional conversion, may they
may not have been Jewish. Or Hebrew by birth but they can
actually become Jewish. And we talked about this.
Matter of fact, the second chapter of my book, I talk about
the prophetic Return of the Jewish people to the land of
Israel from literally all over the world and we can give some
different examples of that, right?
So that's the first thing that we do in our organization.
We talk about who's Jewish both by birth and then who is Jewish,
but who may have converted to officially converted, to
Judaism, the type of thing, and we talked about the diaspora
from all over the world. When we talk about the Jews in
Asia and Africa, and Europe, and North, and South America, all of
those things, how that came to be why we kind of break those
things down, in terms of the diaspora.
Both as particularly after the Roman Conquest in the Roman
destruction of the temple. Then later on the barcode by
rebellion and those types of things, what happened to the
Jewish people as a people scattered with the exception of
a Remnant in the land, scattered to what Isaiah called the four
corners of the Earth, right? And then this miracle of the
Jewish people returning to the land.
From all over the world. So we talk about those things,
both biblically, we talk about it in terms of History, the
fascinating. The topic about where the Jewish
people were dispersed, how they held onto traditions and we
talked earlier about crypto-jews, right?
Do those who were forced into Catholicism of fourths and
Islam, right? But kept their, Jewish identity
secret because of all that was going on, we even talked about,
for example, the the, the the Example, the Spanish
Inquisition, how the king and queen kick the Jews.
I was paying me than going to. Portugal course, Portugal kicks
them out as well. And then when you have the
Inquisition that is going got goes throughout not just Spain,
but its territories, the Jews who went to the new world are
now being persecuted because now Spain is decided.
They were going to rid juice up all of their territories, which
includes now Jews who fled and actually went to, again, the new
world. So we have those kind of
conversations about this Amazing fascinating thing where you have
Jewish people scattered but holding on to their faith,
holding on to their identity and again, even returning to the
land. So, that's that first part,
that's how we teach that and and encouraged more study along
those lines. So, people will understand what
the Kyrie Irving, which touches on the whole Black Hebrew
Israelites, and obviously, for people who may not be aware of
sure, everybody knows it by now. The hero to Negroes film Which
actually came out a few years ago but Kyrie Irving.
Personal post a link about our organization actually addressed
it officially and super black solidarity with Israel.
Then go on our website IBS i.org and they can click on the sub
stack. We have like a articles that are
written about some of these things and we address the
carrier everything separate from the the Kanye West.
The ability with the Kyrie Irving thing.
First Kyrie Irving shares, a link to a video that is
extremely problematic very anti-semitic.
We've called it out as such three and a half hours of a We
go to tation of a lot of anti-Semitic tropes, everything
that somehow the Sephardic ashkenazic and Mizrahi Jews.
Are all cousins are all being used with causes but they did
use that term later on all converts.
All the Jews in the land are basically quote unquote.
I mean I'm using term fake Jesus.
What they're actually alluding to they didn't actually not
Jewish. They're actually people who are
claiming Judaism so on and so forth.
The Jews are responsible for this transatlantic, slave trade,
and on these things that have been said for for,
unfortunately, for centuries at this point, Aren't they all kind
of packed into this actual film? And he shares the film,
obviously very problematic is of the whole brouhaha.
And one of the things that it did was it sparked a new
conversation about who the Black Hebrew Israelites are, and then
A Renewed conversation. If that's a wrap to kind of
unpack this Black Hebrew Israelites or the Hebrews
alliances different terms they are different groups.
There's not one there's many different, the several different
ones I should say. You probably aware of this.
There's a group in dimona that moved to Israel back in the late
1960s, they called a community of peace.
They were there led by camera the first gentleman's name but
ben-ami became their leader is very controversial move they
have been now they've been there over a generation obviously now
some they certainly IDF they're considered they have Israeli
residency and everything in there.
They're working different parts of the Israeli community and
then you have the other group That is actually based in
Chicago, which I call, I often in our organization, we term
them as the original there, there's a Hebrews or like group
that goes back to the mid to late 1800s started by a couple
of gentlemen but there's different origin stories around
that as well, but they began to identify with Judaism.
Some of them claim to be Israelites based on the fact
they were taking the slave trade, some of them didn't claim
to be Israelites but just claim Judaism as the Legend, that type
of thing where you had different different strands of it, and
some of them were hostile later on to Jews.
They considered white Jews are not real juice.
And some of them were not, they saw themselves as wanting to be
a part of the broader Jewish community.
And there was a lot of Splinter groups from there, that's part
of the complexity of that conversation.
Some of them were not go on to become fairly radicalized by
later on. They are attacking people,
there's a gentleman who was a Hebrew Israelite.
Who's the actual on? Who killed Dr. King's mother
went into a how to a church and shot her.
There's a recent incidents in terms of violence those who went
to that neighborhood in Jersey City, 2019, they claim to be
either part of that ideology if you will and killed several
people in that Jewish neighborhood.
And so you've had some of those very horrific things that have
been associated with some who, but claimed to be a part of this
group, right or who have claimed some of the propaganda from this
group and what The white Jews are fake and if they're the real
Jews and that, that whole mindset, right?
So unfortunately for everyone, all of this is happening at the
same time. The perfect storm is now.
Kanye West, who in his anti-semitic, rants goes on
about a clue include everything from praising Hitler to being a
real Jew. I'm not anti semitic because I'm
Jutsu and people were confused about that.
To our knowledge has never claimed to be a part of official
part of a black Hebrew. They're like sect or whatever.
But again, what's problematic is that a lot of his rhetoric is
some of the same rhetoric that's being spoken by those who claim
to be part of, you know, some of these sects of the Black Hebrew
Israelites, we spend a great deal of our time.
Been sorting a lot of that out. Telling people who these people
are, who these individuals, for example, some who are aware of
the Hebrews, like, community based in Chicago, that's
whatever ever Capers, Pune. He has an official conversion to
Orthodox. Judaism Leads their actual
movement throughout the country and around the world.
He works throughout the Jewish community.
And there is even controversy. Even now, as even in the New
York, you're probably aware of it.
That a couple of these, one of the conservative synagogues is
considering having me Bruiser, like, members, come in and serve
in their congregation and, and it's very controversial,
obviously. And I say that as a Christian
who observes and I share this, I have relationships and
friendships throughout the Jewish.
The world for which we married much chairs, everything from
beta Israel and Ethiopia to the Ethiopian Israeli Community to
Ashkenazi Mizrahi and we feel very enriched by that and as we
see this this tussle that's actually happening when it comes
to things like radical Black Hebrew Israelites who are
spewing all kinds of hatred for Israel, hatred for white people,
hatred for eyes cannot see Jews, or Jews or lighter, skin.
As you said, we'd said before, I mean Ashkenazi doesn't mean
somebody looks a certain way but they're doing it in a
stereotypical way. It's very, very confusing.
Very, very - unfortunately, a lot of what we do been, it's
been time, particularly with black leaders and pastors.
Parsing. Some of this out, right?
Explaining the, some of the same things I'm sharing with you.
Now, we point to the book, we point to different studies, the
Jewish diaspora, the Jewish religion, the conservative
Judaism, Orthodox, Judaism, all these types of things.
We talked about the different diets of the Evo of West Africa
who we work closely with them. The, the Limba of southern
Africa, the all these types of we have these discussions,
because for most people, especially Christians are the
non-jews. These are brand new topics.
These did the whole thing is a very, very new phenomenon.
Yes. And quite unfortunately, it's
being introduced to them in the midst of things.
Like Kyrie Irving, Discussion. So we try to sort all of those
things out, give accurate information, give sources to
information and work with that, as we're working with our Jewish
brothers and sisters throughout the community to give to to to
get to sort those things out to make sure that people understand
what's real, what's fake, right? With what's being said that our
lives. What's being said that you can
learn more of a give you a quick example.
One that I told people they watch that film hero to Negroes.
I said some of the sliver of things that were there was that
it actually brought up the issue.
Of a Jewish diaspora to people who never heard of it before.
The bad news was that it was brought up in a very negative
anti-semitic way, right? The, so what you had was people
who had never heard of like, for example, Jews of Ethiopia or
Jews of Yemen, right? So they're watching some of
these people watching this for the first time ever going.
Wow, I didn't know about this that and the other but not
knowing that the source that they're hearing some of this
from has its other agenda, right?
They even in the film they quote, It's a false quote
attributed to Hitler, right? Why?
Why you would do a Jew, a film about Jews and then quote Hitler
in any sort of way, kind of let you know agenda right?
There's an agenda that's actually happening there.
So the internet so answer your to your broader question, we try
to sort that out for everyone and give them the information
and you feel like there's progress like when you show them
this information because I feel like the problem is on the
ground, you know, like people are getting their information
today from like Tick Tock and I see He's like, you know,
probably these teenage kids who get their information from, you
know, the toilet seat in their parents basement.
You know, they're putting putting up videos about like
ashkenazi's and, and DNA and all that stuff.
Like, you guys had, don't even have a high school education,
but that's who's being taught, you know, those are the teachers
of the new generation in a way and there's there's that they're
fighting on that front and also influential people like Kanye
and Kyrie Irving, like there's more Kanye has more followers
Followers on social media. Then there are Jews in the
world. That's a scary thought and
people and it just it almost feels like an uphill battle and
almost feels like can anything be done?
Because here's the thing you can look at you could point to the
diaspora as a way of showing people, you know, because I've
been through but at the same time, if you're an anti-semite
you might look at that as like evidence for all of your hatred
towards you. So look at them.
They everywhere they go. They're hated so then we must
be. Right?
So how do you Something like that.
Well, it's interesting. Then you put in that way.
When you add the phenomenon of social media, what it does is it
it's a thighs, everything, right?
So anti-semitic tropes are old Jew hatred is the oldest ethnic
hatred in the world goes back. Thousands of years just just
imagine the Pharaoh had Tick-Tock, right?
This matter is, if Hitler had Twitter.
Right? What, what could they have done,
right? If Gobo gurbles had the ability
to click, and then, right? Actly.
So our minds, we can't even conceive of that.
That's what we have now. Are we have that level of Jew
hatred on social media, right? So this is part of it so you can
go fast at light speed while you can share around the world all
kinds of false information about Jews and about Israel, right?
You get you, they get a what we often called a Pally would video
or just something out of context, right?
Here's an IDF Soldier. Here's a 10 year old Palestinian
kid. Why are they arresting him?
What's going on? Boom, you share that 10 seconds.
You click on that and these Israelis are over there.
Killing People write that type of thing, right?
So this is the problem that we have in our modern day Society.
Was it in the Book of Daniel? He said, Daniel people will go
to and fro and knowledge will increase, right?
I don't know if he's talked about the internet age but it
does seem like what's going on knowledge.
Right? Knowledge right now that some of
it is good knowledge is someone who is just absolutely horrific,
right? And there's like everybody's
drinking water from a fire hose like quickly, clicking on these
type of things. Well and that scenario anyone
could for who knows about the Jewish history would know that
in that scenario that anti-Semitism will just
exponentially Ali, right, and what's going on?
Ironically in the western world even more so than in the eastern
part of the world. Jew-hatred institutional in, on
in Congress, in college campuses and you curriculum, you name it,
right? So you have actually those who
are experts much smarter than me saying Jew hatred in the west
back in the u.s. is at reaching levels of the second world war.
Yeah. Meanwhile, Israel is making
peace with UAE and Saudi Arabia and would do the Bahrain right.
In Morocco and Sudan. What in the world is going on
here? What we have here is in these
systems here with our social media and with all this
disinformation, all kinds of from David Duke for to Louis
farrakhan's you name it left right whatever.
I have these people who have a great deal of hatred for Jews,
right? And all these like you said the
videos and all this false information.
So for us we recognize that that's actually the case and we
try to not get distracted by the fact that yes there's a there's
all kinds of of negative stuff happening out there.
And at the same time, what I learned from my Jewish friends
been with Citra Aqua, right? The other side like the other
side of that is. You can also spread good
information quickly as well. So making good content, sharing
good content. I remember a couple of years
ago, one of my daughters. She's she was saying Daddy, I'm
she's on there. Whether Instagram or whatever
and she said, I'm watching all this anti-semitic stuff,
everything and she said, and sometimes I feel like I
shouldn't even if I shared something that was the What
difference does it make? Because there's so much bad
that's out there and I told her, I understand what you're saying,
but that's where we have to in the spiritual sense.
Trust God, right? So that if it's a situation, all
this bad stuff happened, don't get discouraged.
Don't let the fact that you see a lot of anti-Semitism on social
media discourage you from showing sharing something that,
you know, is true and that's been my experience being that.
There have been people time to time.
Who will read or see something? Maybe that I've done other
people. Oh, and they've come back and
things. You know what, I never thought
about that before, but when you said X, it made me go and look
at such and such. So that's our response to that,
is that, as bad as it is, that we fight the fight because it
still needs to be fought, and there are people there who can
receive good information that someone post and share that with
their Community with their church or whoever.
And that can also take hold as well.
So, one thing I'm noticing also in the black community, There's
clearly been tension I think as a New Yorker, you know, that
after the Crown Heights riots that there was this tension
between the Jewish and black communities, and obviously,
we're going to get to, you know, how to build Bridges with the
black community, but first, I want to point out something that
I noticed was, it's kind of a weird Trend but like the
strangest, you know, Group which is seeing a grouping of like
people who follow Kanye West's. Ideas of, you know,
anti-Semitism kind of like the black supremacists and then you
see the Nick Fuentes and the white supremacist uniting.
And I actually was like, people ask me like work.
Why is this happening? How does that even make sense?
And I said it makes perfect sense, because they both want
the same thing. They both want segregation and
the work together to make that happen.
But but the scary part is that hating Jews is always the common
denominator that unites the far. In the far, right is.
So I'm just wondering, like, how do we, you know, how do we
navigate that? How do we fix that?
Because I'm even seeing forget if you even take juice out of
the equation. I'm also noticing like the in
the black community there since consents.
Whoa, Chasm became a thing. There's this movement towards
segregation like self-segregation like they're
imposing on their own communities, whether it's all
black college, Ages and all that.
What do you feel about that? How do you how do you respond to
all that? That's happening.
Well, I'm going back to the first thing because you asked
layered questions which is fine but I'll make sure that I'm
answering it for. So the first part with left and
right. So, yes, as you said extremes,
always leave with the Horseshoe Theory, right?
Extremes always meet. When Kanye West, the whole
thing. Explode again back I guess in
October, there was a there's a pro-israel group led by a
gentleman, I think out there in Australia and he did a piece.
Now, his Focus was Ben Shapiro. That wasn't our focus is thing.
Was he felt that Ben Shapiro was not taking it seriously enough,
what Kanye was saying, right? And we shared the video, meaning
we are going to station not, as a slight on, Ben Shapiro.
That was my focus. What he did in the video was
something that was very instructive.
We don't usually see it outside of of certain Community me.
Obviously, it's usually Jewish who will see, and they'll
actually give the chronicling with what I mean by that.
Is that he goes back to Marcus Garvey, who partner with then
the head of the KKK, because of both segregation, right?
He would he's a black nationalist, right?
So he wanted to kind of go back to Africa and separate from
white people that whole thing. But then he had this pack that
he made with this white supremacist, right?
Then you fast forward a few years earlier if he was later,
Elijah Muhammad. Then the leader of the Nation of
Islam is working with Named George Lincoln Rockwell.
Who was the head of the Nazi party?
Right, he had this pack before Mountain before.
Malcolm X was killed one of these.
He revealed was this secret path that the Nazis had with the
Nation of Islam. Right there were literally he
even gave the details of it, they're going to give a County
in Georgia, to black people. That's where they were going to
live, right? And I was thinking, I could
tell, people think about that. If he had the ability to
negotiate County, that means he was speaking on behalf of
politicians. He was speaking, this Nazi was
speaking on behalf of other people in government, if he's
going to see feed an entire account, right?
So you have that level of hatred, far left, right?
This here you have this hatred for.
I mean, it's funny people as far as that spot, right?
Well, I mean, it's funny because they blur the lines, right?
This whole, like the black supremacist thing, or the black
nationalist part of it, we're like a Nation of Islam is
concerned. Elijah Muhammad.
They saw it as a means to end. They also hated use right now.
You say, that's where Converse hated Jews, right?
And they also wanted to separate from white people, right?
So you have this thing where these Nazis and the candy, and
the name, Islam members come together, and they form this
Union so fast forward to now, when Kanye West goes on about
the Jews, who picks next plane taste?
You have white supremacist groups that are actually in that
video that I'm referring to from the gentleman from Australia.
Can't remember the name of the organization right now.
I apologize. But I know your time with the
red beard guy. Yes.
Yes sir. Absolutely.
I'm actually going to be I mean I'm going to post it before this
one but his name is. Joseph Cohen Jewish advocacy.
All right. They look yes sir.
I told her I said yeah I know what.
So you saw I'm talking about, right?
These white Smith's groups who have these black supremacist
together and they're working stuff out right?
And what's bringing them together the hatred for Jews?
Right. So they like oh yeah Kanye's,
right? So you have white supremacist
who hate black people. Come out Kanye's, right?
Right? Yeah.
Black people who hate white people?
They're all rallying around you and David Duke is right?
Hey let's all join together and brotherly love.
So none of this is new. Like you said this is all been
going on for a very very long time.
It's just for this current generation, they're seeing it
for the first time. They've never seen this before.
Right? So to your other point I'll say
there's it's more nuanced than most people realize.
Yes, there are some in the black community who their thing is
just a secession, right? White people over there were
over here, right? And then there's the other part
of it being that's happening in which because of where we are.
There are black Americans. You mentioned, for example,
colleges hbcus for historically, black colleges and universities.
They go all back all the way back to after the first section
of the Civil War, right? Right.
And they were actually, historically, black, because the
students had big black students couldn't go to regular colleges,
right? And so they still exist here
today, right? And two of our daughters went to
our to. We have six children to our
youngest, went to one, went to Howard one, went to say an
awesome Augustine in North Carolina.
That's an environment that they wanted to be a part of.
They felt enriched by and everything.
And so we went had a great time. They had their challenges but it
had nothing to do with you know anything other than being in
school, right? And the reason I mentioned that
is that there are some who are black Americans who particularly
now with so much of the devastation of our homes and
families since the 1960s, when you are aware of that are
reclaiming, a Heritage in terms of who they are in terms of
identity. Right?
Who, why is it important that we know who Frederick Douglass and
Booker T? Washington?
Why is it important that we understand what we were able to
build? 100 years all the way a century
after the Civil War after Slavery.
Why those things are so important because they have a
lot to do with the lack of identity today, right?
So, this is part of what's going on.
Unfortunately, like I said about the social media part, it's also
happening at a time of great social racial division,
anti-Semitism, Israel, hatred, all of these things.
We, I was telling the rabbi friend.
I said, was it the Jewish people who said, may you live in
interesting times? He said, no, that was actually a
Chinese person. Or something that I can remember
was a philosopher said, well whoever said it would be Should
all, you know, you know, sarcastically, thank him because
these are the times that we are living in.
Now, right now, everything in my opinion is increased on an
exponential level, you have a great deal of disinformation a
great deal, what's fueling? That is Jew hatred, right?
And then you also have a lot of good information, being shared
in a very, very fast way. And people are kind of bleeding
from that as well and that's where it kind of the Biting
thing is happening, right? You either grabbing onto
Darkness into light, you either grabbing onto hatred or to love,
right? This is kind of what's happening
right now, but it's coming at you at a hundred miles an hour,
right? This is unfortunately, this is
where we are, and it's overwhelming.
So for some last part of it here for some black Americans and we
talked about this, a lot of what we deal with in our organization
being is what we call authentic history.
And we talk about really quick example, in 1960, the mayor
That's rate in. The black community was slightly
higher than that in the white Community.
There were more husbands and fathers and mothers and fathers
who say raising to almost 80 percent today, between 70, 80
percent, do not have home have father's, right?
So this complete reversal in just a short period of time.
What in the world happened? We don't have time to unpack.
All of them. What happened and how it
actually happened. But you're talking about the
effect of the removal of the men from a community and just let
your imagination run wild. What community could sustain And
it's men being removed, nobody's out, Jewish non-jewish by.
This is not going to happen, and this is not a slight on when
there's nothing to do with know that women are strong.
We're talking about whether men and women are meant to Old
strong families, and communities.
And what happens when you just remove one of those people from
the equation, right? This was actually happening.
Now, we talked about in terms of Olympic history, Professor for
young black, Americans, for them to understand that, some of what
they see. Now is a new phenomenon, this
was not the case just a generation ago, right?
This is summer, why we teach that because we take to teach
about you can we tell them you come from a legacy that was
centuries of slavery. Another story of Jim Crow but
you still Will had families. You still had churches.
You still had institutions. This is what very much like our
Jewish brothers and sisters. Very much isolated, but you
built your homes and your families.
This is some of what's happening right now, understanding
identity Heritage and trying to move forward, some people in,
not understanding what all that means, it becomes an anti white
thing, right? Okay.
Well here's what we're going to do.
We're going to coalesce around white people are evil and Jewish
Jewish. People are evil, that's the
minority, but that is actually happening for some for some,
it's a much broader here. Is what history actually is here
is what Legacy and Heritage actually is.
So it's a very, very mixed bag but again it's a broad thing
that's happening the same time. So something that I'm observing
is that like I've never met. I mean, I don't live in the
south or in places where there's outward, you know, anti-Semitism
from white people. But like, I don't see white
quote, unquote culture celebrating a David Duke.
It's kind of like an underground thing.
But for example, black people who might not, Even be Muslim.
They celebrate fryer can as just a strong black figure in the
community, it's part of the culture cultural thing.
It's like he's our Minister. He's not so like you see rappers
or celebrities who will show him respect even recently.
When I watched the movie you people, I think it was called
with Jonah Hill and Eddie Murphy and like this glorification
romanticizing of like Farrakhan as if as if that's the the, you
know, black hole. Real experience.
And it really it actually hurts to see that today because I
thought that the Jewish connection to the Civil Rights
Movement was should have been Everlasting.
You know, it should have had, we had, for example, Rabbi heschel
hand-in-hand with dr. King and these symbols, you
know, the history of Jewish people who were dying for this
cause it's kind of been washed away.
It's It celebrated its not romanticized.
So I'm just even the movie, Selma, you don't really, you
know, see that. So what can we do to kind of
maybe shift the culture towards under, you know, looking at
figures like yourself and others who are kind of leading the way
in terms of, you know, Shifting the conversation in the new
direction that an idiot way to diminish.
This amazing podcast. I just I want to just give a A
little heads-up for, as I answered this question that you
just asked, I was with Marissa strike Street.
Like, I'm saying the wrong way from Prager and people can
Google it. I, we did a sit-down and the
reason I'm mentioning that is because I unpack some of that,
they're not that I'm not going to do a little bit of it here,
right? The Farrakhan think is, which is
kind of a unique phenomenon. So going back to what I said
about black families, strong, all the kind of stuff like that.
So we would keep had is a vacuum of black male leadership and
it's because it's a very sensitive topic.
It doesn't get discussed very much.
So as I said it, as I said before and I've also said in a
book as welfare Condon becomes a father figure to many people for
lots of different reasons. Now, part of the other
complexity with that is that the Nation of Islam not just on the
fair combat under him since he has he's been the leader since
the 70s I believe it is. I have to wonder after Google
and find out when he actually became leader, has done a lot of
good things in the black community.
Help. Jesus recidivism rate, them
being there's almost negligible drug used rate, not those are
types of things, preach the whole thing, about strong
families and strong, fathers, and all those type of things
which are positive things in terms of the community.
Unfortunately also comes with the baggage of Jew, hatred, and
Israel, hatred. So, you have these things all
together. So for those who feel very loyal
to Farrakhan, they look past those other things, are they
make excuses almost like a relative that you have.
That you really love it. You know, he's a racist or, you
know, he's or whatever like that, but you make excuses from
that's actually what has been a communal thing, right?
For those they'll say about their come daily, to be afraid
to say something negative or criticize him in any way,
especially publicly. Right?
So, I some of them get frustrating.
I do it. I, I told them Marissa when we
were talking about it. Having that conversation, I was
saying, I even asked myself being because I've known about
him, since I'm at least my twenties, I didn't know I was a
little bitty kid, right? But when I was now, late teens
early 20s, when I became I'm aware of Louis Farrakhan, who he
was. I would see some of his
preaching and that type of thing and it was, it was almost in
stages. I didn't really know about his
anti-jewish stance a little bit later on.
I don't hate some of the messages and I would hear a
message and maybe 70% of it. I would agree with right
families that any other, and we would go off on some other
tangents, you know, anti-america and teeth whitening whatever.
Well, for me and just like to tell you my, my particular
perspective, And I don't say this to be facetious or
anything. I was looking for father had a
file. You very much with my father was
love. My father raised me right?
So for me there was no vacuum for him to be a father figure.
I could look objectively. Hear what he was saying.
Say this part I think is cool. This part is what a difference,
a mashugana right and walk away, right?
And just and literally walk away.
No there's no emotional attachment.
There's no anchors. Oh my God.
I have to make excuses for this part by.
There's none of that, right? It was only as I got older.
That I recognized, what was going on in a mass way for those
who even and I want to name names now but because it's not
all that important. But as you said, hip-hop figures
Moguls, whatever like that. Cool praise him, right?
And then at the same time have a great reputation.
Those people in the Jewish Community right there, I had my
Jewish friends that any other and then he welfare comes like a
dad to me. Was I going okay, your dad is
like a, it's a Nazi supporting. I mean, just today I'm on
social. Posting saviors day and I guess
it's Chicago. They have the annual big, I
don't care what it's called, not trying to be disrespectful but
they have something nice of Islam, right?
So one of his Sarah gets gets up farrakhan's, and does this whole
speech about how he's not an anti-semite, that's always the
game that gets playwright Farrakhan Farrakhan he said, and
I quote, I'm not at the same item Matthew turn, right?
But the dude, he's he's very not CS can always say, I mean,
that's what you do. You, dehumanize people, you call
them insects. Call them Road, in fact that's
what Hitler did, right? So for this guy gets up and he
says all bit, they the Jews have always accuse everybody of
anti-Semitism. He goes to this long list of
these different people. Some of that, you may have heard
us and we never heard of, but I he's all they call this person
and he sent me this person. That's my, that's my point.
You know, they named in that long list here.
So let me prove to you that. I'm telling you that you also
falsely call Hitler. And he's right that kind of
thing, right? So what Is my point.
How emotionally needy do you have to be to look at that and
go look past that and go out? Yeah.
Well, he's not to do know the guy hates Jews, then he just got
through telling you that. If you consider Hitler and
anti-semite, then you're wrong, just like you're wrong about
Farrakhan. That's not a winning argument,
right? That's not what that actually
means. And here's my point to your
point, why do some cover for that?
Because they'll look at all of the positive things that he
does. And they'll look past stuff,
like embracing Nazis, right? And a history of embracing me,
Nazis and they'll just say well and they'll point to flaws in
somebody else. Oh yeah.
Well this person said that, okay.
Fine, you may be right about that.
That still doesn't change. The fact that hit the
farrakhan's praising Nazis, right?
And and the Nation of Islam has been very close to the Nazis,
right? So so the answer your question,
and in that sense, there are some who don't or unwilling to
make at least, if not mentally, especially not publicly and say,
I condemn this, this is wrong there, they refuse to go there.
Yeah, and that's something that I was trying to see if there's.
You just clarified it for me that there are people in the
community who do see the issue, but they can't really feel they
don't feel comfortable speaking out about it, so that's
comforting in a way because, you know, I think that I would like
to hope that people are not taking those things to heart,
but I do want to know how we can kind of build Bridges between
the communities because there's like kind of an unspoken Tension
for whatever reason between the communities.
And we don't see so many, you know, Lucy crossovers between
like a you know the Jewish the Black Hebrew Israelites and the
Orthodox Jewish rabbis let's say for example sitting together and
having you know speeches and and just just like kind of clearing
the air. So I think it's I think it's
about time that this is happening because the tension is
mounting and the anti-Semitism is at all I'm high and it's a
shame because, you know, I I always felt growing up that the
we have so much in common, our communities.
So I'm happy that you're taking, you know, charge and you're
being involved in the change. But I do want to know like what
are your thoughts? And how do we do this?
And there's and I also wanted to ask about the idea and I think
it may be relates to each other like on what we see on campuses.
I know I'm I'm packing questions together, but Entice
anti-zionism being the new anti-Semitism there is this, you
know, there's that issue and the young black community, the young
white Community, everybody's hearing this on campus.
So what do you have to say about that?
So let's get a little said we'll come back to the campus thing,
right? Let's do it.
The first part, fortunately, in terms of the black and Jewish
communities, right? Rabbis pastors and that's energy
is still very much in place their Racers that are there.
What I mean by that, is this I tell people often for the last
Almost decade. I've had the privilege of doing
this type of work, but between both communities and speaking
Rabbi speaking black churches, that speaking shoes that, you
know, I'll be with the jcr. See this weekend, right?
I mean, so I have the, the opportunity to do that and I
seen all kinds of unique events. I see, I mean, I just, you know,
event just black and Jewish people working together by doing
it and it still happens on the ground across the country,
right? And a very organic way, Not so
much. Hey, I'm Blackbeard used as do
something that, no, they just, they're working on stuff in
their communities. They're doing stuff.
You know, there are different peoples boards and that
continues. And I often tell people, they
little surprised because as you know, in the work that you do,
there's the real world. There's a virtual world,
Unfortunately. They can impact each other,
absolutely, right. The virtual world can be a
megaphone. What's going on?
But at the same time, there's the Distortion of it as well.
So, as louder voices of Farrakhan, is he still doesn't
speak Or the majority of the black community.
Particularly when it comes to relationships with Jewish people
right there, they all they, maybe they won't bring it up,
right? They'll just leave it alone but
they have friends with rabbis and Jewish friends.
They do things together all those types of things, right?
I remember I'll tell a quick story.
There's a African-American gentleman who I met several
months ago on LinkedIn, right? We were kind of talking back and
forth. He saw some of my post about
Institute for Black solidarity with Israel and everything and
he reached out and we began to talk and we've actually met
together and really we want wonderful young man.
You went wonderful, wonderful. Essay young man.
You're older man. And he told me a quick story
about his dad and his dad is very close to his friend.
They served in the military together.
They live in the Baltimore area, right?
Maryland, they wanted to go into business together again.
They didn't say, hey, I'm black your juices.
Do they were just friends, right?
They just happen, right? So they went to the local
Chamber of Commerce to go join and guess what happened then?
They said it was neither one of the right.
No Jews. No blacks, no dog.
Basically, they laughed. They laughed him out of the
building, right? So, what they did is they
started their own organization. They had their own little Club.
They got cigars, they got a seriously, people would come
from all over. They started their own business.
To it, became a string of grocery stores, right?
They weren't trying to write a civil rights movie, right?
They, these guys were friends, they were already friends, but
that friendship got forged even more because of the hatred in
the community for both of them as Jews and his back to the, and
his parents wound up, sending him.
There's only two school this during segregation in Baltimore,
that would take black students. There's a Quaker School and a
Jewish school, right? His parents enrolled him in the
Jewish school. So, he literally grows up
around, Jewish kids. They, some of his best friend's
to this day, right? I hear stories like that.
All that. I can take a lot of time because
I'm a passion. I grab my as we can talk
about.and, hear those stories all the time and those
relationships remain. They continue to be
strengthened. They've been passed on to their
Generations. Course, social media will never
say any of those things, okay? For those who might be
incredulous, when you consider all the anti-Semitism of a Kanye
West who are some of his closest business associates choose,
right, people who work with him for decades literally who
continue to work with them. Some of them have distanced
themselves because of some of what he said.
But Kanye knows were all the crap that he's trying to throw
the Jewish people. It has been Jewish people who
help and work with him that have helped make him.
The success that he is not that he's not gonna Talented not
exactly very capable. Right and this is unfortunately,
part of the other stories add to that to add to that.
Actually the bridges that he burned with Balenciaga, Chase
and Adidas. None of those were owned by
Jews, so it's not like he playing juice for real.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right.
So, there's a lot of people who know he's full of crap, right?
They look very common thing and I will do what I'll do.
Okay, you makes a good point. Hey black families back cause
that the other up. Okay, now he's on the hole.
Do you thing in Israel? And they'll just kind of
separate like in, like, your crazy uncle.
They look like, they'll go like, okay, well, Uncle Jack is kind
of, you know, they are again, leave alone.
That's how some people didn't. Now, obviously, we're serious
with, it's a very serious time because that hatred gets spewed
out on social media. And you have what that going TV,
right? Kanye was right, you have these
white supremacist who are like champion and Kanye.
They didn't need any more help but all they did was they just
kind of added get them more fuel.
So just I want to say to you, you didn't answer your question
when it comes to the The work, I encourage my Jewish friends, the
laugh of the often that yours might be Jewish.
Friends will often say what can we do more when?
And I'm not saying it's funny, it's always, it gives me joy in
my heart because here is often times, our Jewish friends,
they're being attacked, their being assailed and they're like,
oh no, what what can we do to help was like, when I kind of
chuckled, I said, you know, what do what you all have been doing
since the date of Julius Rosenwald and Booker T
Washington, helped do sow your seeds, all of the kind of stuff
and then just just continue to you continue to be You continue
to terrorize, you continue to reach out, you can do that and
you're going to find that you'll have black people who continue
to do the same thing with you, even in the midst of all of the
noise, right? Not that what's going on?
It's not serious, right? But continue to do that.
So for those who ask that next question, what can happen
continue to do? What you're doing?
Reach out to somebody. I talked with somebody there's a
passed through the area. Hey, would you like that's one
of these organization does? We try to match different groups
with each other and people with each other?
So they can further those and chips if they haven't already
started it. So I just want to say that part
the last part here, the school part and so you bring up
something because it's education, it's politics to
everything. I tell people all the time, just
like, for me, I been, I try to be a consistent individual and
that if I'm going to for example, call out you hatred,
I'll call it out. Wherever right?
Yes. I'm a black man.
Love my family. I love my community, and I
recognize the type of Statute that Louis Farrakhan is but I
have no problem publicly, right? I won't call my name, I do.
Base to be respect for my elders by, you'll never see me columns
and photo derogatory thing. But I will be with without
pulling any punches saying this is completely untrue, your
cozying up with Nazis this that and then people get frustrated
by that, but that's how I was raised.
I don't really care right there to make a difference.
When I tell people, I'm not trying to offend you, I just
don't care if you're offended by just going to actually tell you
the truth, right? So to us in our organization,
the greatest incubator of Jew hatred in the United States, is
not the Nation of Islam is not the Black Hebrew Israelites,
it's our car. College campuses and
universities. You are talking about a
systematic faculty Administration, curriculum.
And not just lately, when you talked about anti-Semitism and
anti-zionism be anti-Semitism, we go back to the 60s.
This has been going on for a while, right?
So here is where our children are being indoctrinated, Zionism
is racism, Israel's committing genocide against the
Palestinians, God's has an open-air prison on and on, and
on, and yada yada, yada yada. So now we're talking about race
and politics who controls the Campuses last Outlook is not
black people, it's white progressives.
White progressives, overwhelmingly control what goes
on on these campuses. And by the way, this not going
on on hbcus, you don't see the anti-Semitism Aunty where the
rabbit at are there. Pro-palestinian activities on
those some of those campus. Absolutely.
But all this marching around with Palestinian Flags,
intifada, intifada, long live, the intifada.
That's not happening Howard, that's not happening at Spelman.
That's happening at Berkeley. That's happening at Stanford,
it's happening where white progressives.
Roll the space and I try to make us a racist slur.
No, I'm saying, just like the black community needs to do with
the Farrakhan. We don't control what goes on on
these campuses and fortunately, there are Jews involved in that
too. So why take it go.
Yeah. Right.
I've been on campuses where there was no students for
justice in Palestine, but the Jewish kids on the campus
started one because they felt didn't want anyone need to be
there when my God. Are you kidding me, right?
So this is actually happening. I have older Jewish parents
coming to me, lamenting the fact that their kids and grandkids
went to the school. - and came out anti-zionist, right?
This is happening on a systemic level and Eastern almost
ignored. Yes, sir.
Jews are even on the left that, you know, they were a lot of
them are raised by Holocaust Survivors.
So, any perceived victim will always try to Champion them and
stand behind them, so I get where that's coming from,
they're just being misinformed, but it's crazy how some, you
know, like the Nazis basically wrote The Playbook on propaganda
and the more you repeat a lie. Why?
The more people will just believe it in this hole, I've
never seen genocide with population growth.
Their population, I will sing population is growing, how is it
going to side? So let's back, don't matter.
Right? What - why doesn't it matter?
Because the Jews just insert some sort of bad thing and put
juice in there and then boom, it's believable because of the
Jews. And this is to that you probably
know how to boot Swami's, an Arab Israeli journalist Decades
of experience. He actually before, I mean, he
just writes the truth. He actually started as part.
Yasser arafat's press Corps, right?
He's actually writing for them. They probably reason why he got
kicked to the curb because he refused to tow the party line.
He was actually tell the truth. Okay, well patatas doing this,
they don't want to tell me, right?
He travels to the United States in 2009, to give a series of
lectures, he can't give one lecture everywhere, he's got
cops 12 deep, right? Everybody wants to like a piece
of him yelling and screaming and all stuff, and finally, he can't
really deliver speeches. He they all he's a sellout.
He's just adding the other. He can't even do not debate.
In him. They're not like no asking him
questions after lecture this, shutting it down he goes back to
Jerusalem where he was born and raised.
And he writes an article and basically says we shouldn't be
surprised at the next jihadists. Don't come from Afghanistan to
Pakistan but come from us college campus.
Once again, Farrakhan last, I checked his not comparing
controlling those campus. Are they sharing some of
information? Yes.
But the Nation of Islam is not in controlling that.
And why do I keep making that point?
Because what often happens is, as you said, some of the
anti-Semitism will get the past. Because if we're really going to
have a kind of reconcile with ourselves moment as Americans,
we'd have to really have conversations about who's
funding this anti-israel activity on these campuses.
Right? Why does the pflp have people
receiving faculty member from San Francisco State University
and meeting with? At last I checked there are
terrorist organization registered with our state
department but somehow faculty from our us universities, can go
and leave with them, and then come back and then host later,
Colorado. What, what?
What's going on there? Are being radicalized on our
college campuses and that often doesn't get discussed because if
you're going to discuss it, you have to discuss who are The
Gatekeepers. Most people want to have that
discussion, so it just goes by the wayside.
Yeah. And I think that is those are
conversations. I think we can actually have it
fit like you said if it wasn't being suppressed and they
weren't stopping the conversation from happening, but
like I've have more hope for that.
Part of the the demographic. Then I do for people who To like
the Alex Jones or the David Icke, and all these like, Jewish
lizards Jewish space lasers, and all that stuff.
Those kind of conspiracy theories, you know, you can't
really do anything about it but I wanted to end on one and only
have a few minutes left. But I recently had an Imam on
the show and I asked him a question.
And I want to ask you the same question, but his religion
Islam. Do you feel that some of the
anti-Semitism and all the Ropes about, you know, Jews are baked
into Christianity where whether it's the verses that talk about
the synagogue of Satan, which I believe are taken out of context
but also, you know, this Thousand-Year blood libel that
the Jews killed Jesus. Like, how do you shake off this?
You know, it's been, I'm one of those individuals who brought up
in the tradition of for a Christian who really understands
Is Faith really understands the concept of us being what we call
the grafted into spiritual Israel.
Not replacing Israel. Not replacing, the Jewish
people. None of those types of things.
Then when David says, pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, May they
Prosper that love the we are the people who need to take that to
heart the most after obviously the Jewish people praying for
the Peace of Jerusalem, praying for the peace in the security of
the nation, right. When when Genesis says, I will
bless those who bless Abraham's seed and curse those who could
we As Christians who truly believe in the word of God and
believe that our faith is built on the foundation of of Judaism
of the Torah, not on our our ability and need to proselytized
Jewish people, but recognizing that if it wasn't for the Jewish
people, we would not have our faith, right?
That those of us who claim Jesus, as the Savior are serving
a Jewish Messiah, right? So, this actually is a Jewish
man born in Bethlehem. Raised in Nazareth priest in
Galilee. These actually not fantasy
lands. These are real land.
These are actually real places that I when we recognize that as
Christians, then hatred for Jews is one of the stupidest.
Most ignorant things that any Christian can do hatred for
Israel, hatred for the Jewish people.
So is it baked in? It's been there for a long time,
there's no other entity that has been more damaging into the
Jewish people, then the Christian Church during the two
thousand years of history, and that's just the absolute Loot
truth. Unfortunately, for those
individuals who took it upon themselves to either Force, try
to force proselytize, or kill, or persecute in the Name of
Christ. We're doing it and the
Distortion and the bastardization of the faith that
they said that they had. There's one last thing that you
said about not just big, Timbers, another part of your
part about being Christ Killers. So it's In that, that was in the
Nazis would do that. Then you killed Christ, and our
understanding of the narrative that Jesus, then is crucified
and for good for us as Christians crucified raised on
the third day, the type of thing, this happens in
Jerusalem. This happens as the hold of the
turmoil and tumult and it's the Romans who nail him.
The the it's the what's amazing here is that for those
Christians who then blamed, you Jews for the crucifixion of
Jesus. Also, have no real understanding
of the scriptures that we say that.
We hold dear. That Jesus's followers were
Jewish, everybody in the upper room, on the book of Acts was
Jewish and you, you didn't have the Jewish men and women who
followed him, you wouldn't even have what we call as our faith,
right? So that becomes a moot point.
In terms of saying that quote unquote, the Jews killed Jesus.
It's you It's amazing. What we teach in our faith.
Is that our sins crucified him that he, if I believe do we
sign, he believes that he died for me.
That means I'm the one who nailed him to the cause.
This wasn't about whether it was Jewish, and is Romans people
that it was me, that there's, this was for me, right?
I'm not someone as a Christian faith and I believe that he was
wounded for my transgressions bruised for our iniquities.
That's, that's me. That's, and I'm talking about my
salvation. Someone who would twist this
around and then blamed use and then attack Jews.
As someone who killed their savior is just an anti-semite,
who's using whatever they can. As Christians at that point to
attack the Jewish people which again is completely Fallen to
what they say that, their actual faith is.
So yes, we've heard those things before and we've taught that to
other pastors and leaders before that, that's a complete
distortion. And of both historical record.
But also what your understanding as a Christian is supposed to be
in terms of the god that you say that you serve in the person
that you say that you believe is the Messiah.
Yeah, it's interesting just just to end on this.
I think that it's ironic also because, you know, the one thing
they say that the Jews did wrong is actually the source of their
salvation. So it's just like a mine who's
with your mind, right. Thank you so much for coming off
and God bless you. Thank you for everything that
you do being. Friend to the Jewish people and
we hope to see you on many, other Jewish channels and
bringing peace between all people.
So thank you. Thank you.
Thanks for having me that. Appreciate it problem, take
care, you two. Hey guys, thanks so much for
tuning in to the Judy's and demystified podcast.
Really appreciate all your support and your feedback.
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easy. To remember, thank you again and
we hope to keep putting out Rachel's for you guys.
Spreading the word, share it with your friends, family, or
whoever you think would be interested, we also opened a
patreon so you can become a patron, contribute any small
amount you'd like which would really help us grow the show.
Our patreon is www.a tree, on.com slash Judaism, pretty
easy. To remember, thank you again and
we hope to keep putting out Rachel's for you guys.