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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
It is a pleasure to welcome 

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Rabbi Lerner. 
Rabbi, if you could tell our 

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audience a little bit about 
yourself and how you found us. 

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Hi, good, good morning and 
thanks for having me. 

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This is a real honor and a 
pleasure. 

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So the well, I'm brought up in 
the Uki got into teaching a 

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couple of years after I got 
married in Israel. 

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I'm living with Shemesh at the 
moment. 

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I teach in Jerusalem and in Tel 
Aviv. 

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What else? 
We met through the Khabura, I 

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believe the Khabura with the 
with Rabbi Dwex Khabura in 

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London. 
I was part of that group and I 

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gave I think one of the talks on
Tamia mitzvahs and the rumba in,

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in, in parallel to rehearsh and 
for that, for that organization.

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And yeah, I sort of, I, I teach 
the Rathersh primarily online 

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and in Jerusalem in different 
institutions as long as the 

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Kusari and the Rambam. 
Yeah, that's that that's sort of

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my involvement in. 
Well, I suppose on a more fun 

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note, I'm also to besides my 
teaching efforts, I'm also a 

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licensed electrician, so. 
That's what. 

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That's what that's what I do to 
make money, as they say, is 

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that, by the way, that always 
lights up my students when I 

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like, you know, you're expecting
the rabbi type of thing and 

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they're like, well, actually, 
I'm also an electrician, which 

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is so counter what you would 
expect, like the I like sort of 

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the intellectual abstraction and
the ultimate grounding in like I

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fix wires like it's a it's a 
jump, which is a a lot. 

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My wife, Rifgo, she also 
teaches, but she's a programmer 

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in the in the in the spare time.
So she I always say she does the

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intelligent. 
I smash down pause. 

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She continues to deal with 
abstractions. 

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But yes, that's my before 
wonderful children sleep up 

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sense and yeah, thank God, 
that's that's amazing. 

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You're a great example for 
people. 

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That's the way to do it. 
You know, work and learn and 

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everything. 
So we wanted to get into the 

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topic of of Hirsch. 
If you, before we get into it, 

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just tell us why. 
Because you reached out to us 

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and you wanted to discuss with 
Hirsch and we had an episode 

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with Rabbi Eisen and you reached
out to us about it. 

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So I want to just let the 
audience know a little bit about

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why we're discussing with 
Hirsch. 

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Right. 
So the, the, the topic emerged 

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or the reason why I thought it 
would be a good idea to discuss 

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this is because I believe you 
the, the, the, the, the stimulus

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from my point of view is that 
often when discussions take 

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place specifically around the 
topic of Agatha and Medrish, 

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there's a, there's a, a modern 
voice that's often not spoken 

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about. 
And that modern voice is 

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rehearsh, but also in the 
broader context of a grounded, 

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relatable style of Judaism that 
rehearsh offers us that I 

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thought would be a great 
conversation to be had. 

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And also from the point of view 
of your audience and what 

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you're, what they call this 
corner of the Internet, the 

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people who appreciate this 
perspective, I think the voice 

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of rehearsh could be a great 
addition or a great tool in 

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their toolkit in approaching the
world. 

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And that's why I was excited to 
be able to, I spent a lot of 

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time with rehearsh. 
It's it animates and pictures my

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Judaism. 
So I thought it would be a 

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great, a great conversation to 
have. 

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I'm a student of Revaizen. 
Revaizen also is is, is a, a fan

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of rehearsh, But the Revaizen 
really is a, is a is a, a wonder

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articulating the, the world of 
the Rashaim. 

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And I thought it'd be a great 
opportunity for us to discuss 

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Rehearsh and some of his 
approaches, both abstractly, but

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also some of the ways that his 
ideas are relevant and I suppose

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useful in the world today. 
Yeah, we're, we were talking off

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camera with you about the fact 
that he kind of flies under the 

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radar. 
Right, right. 

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Especially among Spartan, I 
think that, you know, we, we 

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want to know more and we want 
to, we want you to hopefully 

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make the case for why people 
should be focusing and paying 

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more attention to rehearse. 
So if you could tell us also 

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like why this is something that 
is resonating with you so much 

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and why you've dedicated so much
time with refresh? 

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So, so that's a great question 
and why I so I suppose there's 

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two sides of it. 
Why do I personally get 

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interrupt harsh and why does he 
resonate? 

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So I'll start with why does he 
resonate? 

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Because he's a maybe I'll, I'll 
give a metaphor to articulate 

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this. 
When I, when I was teaching in 

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London, a there was AI don't 
mean this in a pejorative way, 

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but there's, there was a 
tendency when I would give an, I

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was teaching for an organization
called the Jelly in London and 

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one of my responsibilities was 
to give talks in banks and in 

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North Hamps. 
So we'd give talks and I found 

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it very, I suppose, a sad but a 
very difficult reality. 

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You'd have people who were very 
sophisticated in every area of 

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life. 
They were sophisticated 

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businessmen and they were able 
to articulate their world view 

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in a very sophisticated way in 
relationship with business and 

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to finance and to investments. 
But when they spoke about 

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religion and Judaism, it was 
quite childish. 

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It was quite childish, not in 
the sense that they didn't use a

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sophisticated language, but the,
the, their, their world view 

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from a religious standpoint was 
very undeveloped. 

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And what I've seen was that when
they were talking in the level 

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of their business world, their, 
their, their world view had sort

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of developed. 
But when they spoke in their 

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religious context, it was still 
at the level of, I'd know, 

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primary school. 
And I sort of after having a 

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discussion with one of them and 
speaking to these guys about it,

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I realised that there was a 
always almost like a fear that 

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if you look at your religious 
worldview with this new 

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sophisticated worldview you have
as an adult, you'll realize it 

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doesn't make any sense. 
The worldview that you have now 

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has grown beyond your religious 
perspective and it doesn't make 

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sense when you look at it 
through the lens of your most 

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sophisticated worldview. 
So you sort of have to leave 

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your, your, your religious 
worldview sort of in the realm 

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of that. 
It doesn't kind of have to make 

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sense. 
And you can kind of, you can 

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kind of, I always to say to 
people, it's like it's, it 

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remains in the realm of Harry 
Potter. 

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It doesn't have to make sense. 
The rules and the, the, the 

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principles in your regular life 
don't have to develop in your 

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religious worldview and through 
discussing it with them. 

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And this, this would come about 
through the type of questions, 

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the sort of questions that 
someone would ask that you would

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never allow such a question to 
be asked in your business 

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meeting. 
But when it comes to religion, 

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you could ask such a question. 
And through discussing this with

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them, I and then integrating 
rehearsh, I was, I was able to 

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find that through describing 
Judaism through the lens of 

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rehearsh, it allowed people and 
it allowed my students to ground

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the world that they lived in 
with the world of their 

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religion, the world of their, 
the, the, the sophisticated 

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world view they had as an adult 
and the world view of their 

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religious perspective were able 
to marry rather than being 2 

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separate worlds. 
And that was my first, or I 

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suppose that was in my teaching 
life, but as an individual, when

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I first approached Rathersh, it 
made sense. 

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It made sense with my 
understanding of the world, but 

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also my understanding of what I 
thought Judaism was, rather than

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having to have this bifurcated 
vision where I had my, my 

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religious world view that didn't
really have to make sense and my

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sophisticated adult world view, 
which made sense in the, in I 

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suppose the, the, the world that
I was living in. 

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Profession allows you to marry 
those two worlds. 

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You have someone who's writing 
post the Enlightenment. 

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So he's experiencing the world 
through the modern lens, but he 

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integrated religion in such a 
beautiful way with the use of of

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language primarily to allow us 
to appreciate the world and 

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religion together. 
So the sort of things he speaks 

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about, the ideas he puts 
forward, the language he uses, 

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it allows us to talk about 
religion in a way that keeps our

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vision of the world connected. 
You have the adult vision of the

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world where you are seeing the 
world in a rationalistic way 

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where the world has to make 
sense. 

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But then you're also able to 
look at your religious worldview

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with that same lens. 
You don't have to change your 

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lenses. 
You can keep them together. 

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So much so that when I was 
talking about a good example of 

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this is like reasons for the 
commandments. 

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One of the dangers I found when 
speaking to people about 

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rehearses, Tamiya mitzvahs, they
sometimes the stuff made too 

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much sense and that made people 
uncomfortable. 

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It resonated too much. 
It was almost like a lack of 

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mystery there. 
That was like, so, so that's it.

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I'm like, no, with Hersh isn't 
saying that's it, but this is a 

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way of walking through the 
world. 

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This is a lens you can walk 
through the world that actually 

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makes sense. 
So when you sing, sing as as 

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simple as taking colour. 
Well, you also why'd you take 

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colour? 
Why'd you take colour off of 

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bread? 
Why'd you separate colour and 

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people like people obviously 
sort of sort of sideline into 

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some sort of like. 
Sorry, say Gulot and stuff like 

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that They. 
They, they sort of, I, I would, 

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I would stop them and I would 
say like, do you, I don't mean 

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this. 
I'm, I'm, I'm not being 

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confrontational with them, but 
do you know what you're talking 

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about? 
Like what does? 

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But then like, and then they try
and push it off. 

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But then I say that what what 
Raphersh says is that, well, how

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does the only thing you separate
twice, you separate it in the 

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field, but then you also 
separate it in your home. 

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You separate in the field like 
all the other food to recognise 

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and experience that God is in 
your life in the field. 

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But then you separate it again 
in your home as a a, a a potent 

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expression that God is present 
in your life in your home, 

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because the home is the focal 
point of the Jews mission and 

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the person's like that's rooted 
in halacha that, that that 

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explanation makes a lot of 
sense, not only in a a technical

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way, but, and when I say 
Rathersh's makes sense, I don't 

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mean that he ticks a box that 
changes your experience. 

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And Rathersh has the ability to 
not only make sense for me, I 

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suppose you could say an 
intellectual standpoint, but an 

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experiential standpoint. 
You can sit in his reasons and 

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experience the world in a 
richer, I would say, and I use 

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this word in the more the 
technical sense, in a more 

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enchanted way, not with fairies 
and magic, but you experience 

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the world that you can that the 
Tyrians trying to draw your 

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experience with God in the 
world, not in a a a a imminent 

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sort of like the Khala's got 
magic inside it, but you as the 

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conscious experiencer are 
bringing God into your life. 

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And Khala is that 2 stage 
process unlike any other food. 

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And that makes Khala something 
very special. 

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And people are like, wow, that 
that that does make sense that, 

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that, that makes sense why Khal 
is a special and that, by the 

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way, that's why when people 
before they get married, they do

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a Khala break and etcetera, 
etcetera. 

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This interpretation makes 
profound sense. 

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Well, that's a beautiful thing 
to do at that time. 

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So why I love rehearsh is that 
he has the ability to and I I 

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compare him to the Kazuri at 
this point. 

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The Kazuri was the poet and the 
philosopher and that unique 

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blend of the, the heart and the 
mind. 

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That unique blend you had with 
the cursory, which is why it's 

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such a pleasure to teach. 
You also have that with 

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rehearsh. 
You have the emotion, the 

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groundedness in the world 
through symbolism, but also the 

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the the need for it to actually 
make sense is that that. 

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It's something you articulated 
it beautifully and I can sense 

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your passion also, which is 
awesome. 

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00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,720
It's like going to happen. 
My passion doesn't take over my 

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00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,760
ability to explain it so. 
No, no, no, no, no. 

226
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,760
You're just fine. 
It's almost like people go about

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their religiosity in a way that 
sometimes it's almost like 

228
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,120
there's a cognitive dissonance 
between, between their 

229
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,800
religiosity and their general 
world view. 

230
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,480
And it's kind of like they're 
just bouncing off of these, 

231
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:13,040
these two that doesn't fit. 
And you just kind of bounce 

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between it and, you know, and, 
and what you're trying to say, I

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00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,080
believe is, is that is that you 
don't need to have cognitive 

234
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,080
dissonance with, with the way 
you approach the Torah and the 

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way you approach your practical 
life. 

236
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,760
They're really one in the same 
if you have the right 

237
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perspective. 
You can let one blend into the 

238
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,080
other, meaning one can influence
the other and backwards and 

239
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,400
forth, which brings us into the 
whole synthesis of Rappersch's 

240
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,760
idea of Tyre and Dere Herritz. 
But can I, can I maybe like if I

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00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,840
it's actually, by the way, the 
reason why personally, this is a

242
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,000
very much a side point. 
But for those of your listeners 

243
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,720
who are listening where this 
will be useful or interesting. 

244
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,400
I got into nature of Hersh 
because I'm dyslexic. 

245
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:52,840
Oh. 
Really. 

246
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:54,760
People like what they're really 
talking about. 

247
00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:00,320
My reading his work was because 
being dyslexic, I read very 

248
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,760
slowly, which is a which is a 
difficult thing as a teacher. 

249
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,680
And when I'm under pressure, 
it's even worse. 

250
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,120
So you can wish I'm giving a 
class and I'm writing some sort 

251
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,400
of idea on the board. 
If I'm under pressure, it could 

252
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,200
be French at the at the end of 
it. 

253
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,840
So I've got to always be open 
with my students. 

254
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,520
But reading was very slow. 
And I came to this conclusion 

255
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,000
when I was like, I, when I first
got like AI was trying to come 

256
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,720
up with a, a, a, a, a, a, a 
thinker that I could connect to.

257
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,080
And I was thinking to myself 
like, well, who can I connect 

258
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:28,720
to? 
And I was like, well, I don't 

259
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,440
want to read something that I 
have to read in a Hebrew 

260
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,200
translation with speed because 
I'm always coming at it from a, 

261
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,520
a, a, a second standpoint. 
Now, obviously I can work my way

262
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,680
through the Hebrew, but it's 
always going to be far slower. 

263
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,080
English I had more exposure to. 
So it's, but also I can listen 

264
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,240
to it, I can translate it to 
APDF and then from PDFI can 

265
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:48,720
listen to it. 
So I was like, what about 

266
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,720
rehearsh? 
I didn't really know much about 

267
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,440
rehearsh except that it was 
written in German, which means 

268
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,200
the best translation is English,
meaning you don't want to have 

269
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,640
the translation in Hebrew is 
people can read it in Hebrew if 

270
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,440
they want to, but you're the 
language in English is richer. 

271
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,440
There's more words, there's 
more, we have access to more 

272
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,800
words than than from Tanakh. 
So that was my exit drug or the 

273
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,280
entry drug into a Hersh. 
At that point I got hooked. 

274
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,280
So I kind of make the joke from 
a Hashka protest standpoint, 

275
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,080
which of Eisen would would not 
be proud of this idea. 

276
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,720
But if I tongue in cheek, I say 
God made me dyslexic to teach 

277
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,520
with Hersh. 
So that's my. 

278
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,240
That's my my, my, my, my joke. 
Amazing take. 

279
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,480
I like that a lot. 
So, you know, just as another 

280
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,200
side note, we, we bring up Rabbi
Sacks a lot because he's a big 

281
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,240
inspiration to us. 
And I feel like, like what you 

282
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:43,040
mentioned about being a poet and
a philosopher is, is something 

283
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,560
that kind of blew me away 
because I, it totally just 

284
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,240
resonated me. 
The first time I read Rabbi 

285
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,320
Sacks, I was just like mind 
blown. 

286
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,440
So yeah, I mean in in a similar 
vein obviously. 

287
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:55,400
Right. 
So you can, by the way, you'll 

288
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,360
see a lot of parallel between 
both of their thinking. 

289
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,440
A lot of parallels rehearses 90 
letters. 

290
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,320
It's quite similar in a way. 
Obviously it's not written in a 

291
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,520
letter form, but the goal of 
Rabbi Sachs is a letter in a 

292
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,160
scroll or radical, then radical.
Now the book that is like, I 

293
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,840
don't know if it should be an 
obligation for every Jew to 

294
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,320
read, but in the modern world, 
every Jew should really read 

295
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,680
that book. 
It seems sort of thing that was 

296
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:19,880
being done. 
And by the way, this, I think 

297
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,440
there's one of those things that
makes Rappersh a, a, a, a, a bit

298
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,400
of a shining light in the modern
world in my, as I say, I teach, 

299
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,080
right. 
So I teach yeshivas and I teach 

300
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,680
seminaries and I teach in Tel 
Aviv, which is, and they're all 

301
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:34,800
generally speaking, between the 
ages of 20 and 30. 

302
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,400
That's my, and just in terms of 
without getting into refresh the

303
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,320
sort of more his, his deeper 
philosophy on a very basic 

304
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,160
level, you can ask someone, why 
are you doing what you're doing?

305
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,000
Like, why, like, why are you, 
why are you doing this? 

306
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,080
And so Hersh gives language to 
that sort of question and that 

307
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,760
sort of approach the world the 
way I frame it. 

308
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,200
I actually got this framing of 
rehearsh from Rabbi Doctor Sam 

309
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,040
Liebenz, which was a bit 
bizarre. 

310
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,840
But so, and he has some, he has 
some works, some essays and some

311
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,520
works of rehearsh and the in the
rehearsals, 19 letters. 

312
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,360
He he originally wrote it, which
is actually his first book he 

313
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,120
published. 
He actually wrote horror first, 

314
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,360
which is the insanity of that. 
He wrote that at the age in his 

315
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,080
20s. 
And the publisher was like, I 

316
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,920
publish this because no one will
read it because we don't know 

317
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,280
who you are. 
So write something else. 

318
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,160
So he systemized his 
philosophical worldview into the

319
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,080
19 letters published in that. 
First it blew up to the point 

320
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,720
where Reform, we're using it as 
well. 

321
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:40,880
And then he wrote, then they 
produced Kharev. 

322
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,720
But in the 19 letters, he asks 3
basic questions. 

323
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,480
He says, what is Judaism's goal?
Like what's he trying to 

324
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,920
achieve? 
Is that noble? 

325
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,680
Now people don't think that's a 
question, but it absolutely is a

326
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,920
question to quote Rabbi Sachs, 
where he quotes, I think it's 

327
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,520
from Yitzhaka Rama. 
He he's quoting the question 

328
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,720
about why be Jewish is a new 
question. 

329
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,400
It's like there's Charles 
Taylor, a sociologist wrote a 

330
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,880
book called The Secular World 
where people talk about the idea

331
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,280
of like religion and secular. 
He's like 300 years ago there 

332
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,720
was no interesting secular. 
Like you didn't have a setup 500

333
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:18,800
years ago. 
If you would have asked someone,

334
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,920
are you religious? 
They would have been like, like 

335
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,960
my part of the clergy, like 
being Jewish at a certain point,

336
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,400
like being secular became an 
option. 

337
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:32,560
When Judaism became an option. 
You then had to ask why, and 

338
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,120
Rafesh says why. 
What is the goal of Judaism? 

339
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,520
Is that a goal, a noble goal? 
Does it cool the better part of 

340
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,040
you? 
And then your last question is, 

341
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,480
how do the particulars of 
Judaism in mitzvot fulfill those

342
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,680
goals? 
How does it now you'll, you'll 

343
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,120
see this idea brought up by 
anybody who gets Tami and 

344
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,120
mitzvahs, but with rehearsals 
who explicit. 

345
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,680
And then when he lays out his 
categories of commandments, they

346
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,880
seamlessly work towards his 
goal. 

347
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:02,680
So you live in a, you live in a 
world where the world of your 

348
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,560
experience and the world of your
action are In Sync. 

349
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,160
There's a, there's a philosopher
called Jonathan Nuvecchi, 

350
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,000
profound thinker. 
I think he's in Toronto. 

351
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,360
He has this phrase that he calls
worldview attunement, where your

352
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,840
worldview and what you're doing 
in your world are attuned 

353
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,760
together. 
So a basketball player playing 

354
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,680
with with a basketball player on
a tennis court, that doesn't 

355
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,120
make sense. 
The worldview is not attuned 

356
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,920
with what he's there to do. 
A basketball player on a 

357
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,920
basketball court. 
He, he, he's fitted to his 

358
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,280
world. 
Rathersh in the modern world 

359
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,520
allows us to be fitted to the 
world, but we are attuned to the

360
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,720
world in a way that the actions 
that we're performing fit into 

361
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,600
the higher goal of what Judaism 
is trying to achieve. 

362
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:52,240
And that language of mission of 
of of of a calling of a that the

363
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,360
in the in the in the in the 
Christian context, they, they I,

364
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,480
I tell my students that when 
you're when you when you when 

365
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,760
you read works with Christians, 
a lot of the work can be 

366
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,680
beautiful and profound. 
It's a it it. 

367
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,880
But the language that a 
Christian would use is carry 

368
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,560
your cross. 
You've heard that phrase as a 

369
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,600
metaphor Commissioner might 
refresh very specific at the 

370
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,480
beginning of Kharev because the 
metaphor we use in I always 

371
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,000
perhaps I'm getting ahead of 
myself. 

372
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,160
What's the parallel in Judaism? 
What's the parallel bear your 

373
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:21,760
cross. 
You can make that sound 

374
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,120
beautiful and profound. 
What is Judaism's? 

375
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:26,640
Version. 
Of us, sorry. 

376
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,200
What's Judaism's version of 
that? 

377
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:29,680
Yeah. 
What's a yoke? 

378
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,920
A yoke and and and and and. 
Think of the difference. 1 is 

379
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,400
about death, 1 is about death, 
and one has purpose. 

380
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,720
A yoke provides. 
It provides food. 

381
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,680
It plows a field. 
There is a reason. 

382
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,640
I know it's a agricultural 
metaphor, but it's such a 

383
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,920
beautiful metaphor because it's 
mission based. 

384
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,000
There is a reason for being it 
produces food, it produces a 

385
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,880
livelihood. 
That is what a yoke does. 

386
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,640
So when we are adopting the yoke
of heaven, that sounds very like

387
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,960
a disconnected and and and 
grandiose. 

388
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,080
And 1st, it's like that you're 
you're adopting a perspective. 

389
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,960
You are on a mission. 
There is a reason for you to be 

390
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:14,400
here and that that language of 
mission and of of is is It 

391
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,560
resonates I find not only with 
me but also with my students, 

392
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,080
which is another right reason 
why refresh is that quite. 

393
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,880
Yeah. 
Absolutely beautiful. 

394
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:28,600
We wanted to ask you also 
regarding rehearses thinking and

395
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,480
how it helps modern Jews 
navigate their place in the 

396
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,400
world today. 
So I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd slip into 

397
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,240
the point I mentioned before 
about this worldview attunement,

398
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,040
but also perhaps we can use it 
as an opportunity to sort of 

399
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,680
segue into his, his classical 
slogan, which was Tyra and Derek

400
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,040
Erritz. 
Now the beauty of Barbara Hersh.

401
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,520
And like any great thinker, 
you'll have his interpreters and

402
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,360
his interpreters disagree. 
And that's a lot of fun. 

403
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:57,880
I mean, you'll love this because
when it comes to a Hersh, people

404
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,200
are so passionate about him. 
They they, they have to, he also

405
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:09,120
has to, he also has to makes how
best to say this without being 

406
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:10,760
once again, pejorative. 
And I don't mean it in a 

407
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,120
everybody's trying to do their 
best. 

408
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:14,800
But when you're interpreting 
rehearsed, there's a tendency to

409
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,720
make rehearsed you. 
That's a that's a danger. 

410
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,000
The same way when it comes to 
the rumbam people who interpret 

411
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,760
the rumbam, they often make the 
rumbam do what they want the 

412
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,600
rumbam to do. 
And obviously I can't escape my 

413
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,760
own biases, but a way that this 
emerges is in this slogan of 

414
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,800
term. 
What did he mean by that? 

415
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,240
But also it's actually emerges 
fascinating enough in Kabala 

416
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,560
because you have these two 
schools of thought, like did 

417
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,200
rehearsh do Kabala or didn't he,
which is like people, why do you

418
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,440
care? 
Why is that interesting? 

419
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,040
Well, because if you're in the 
modern yeshivish world and you 

420
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,840
love rehearsh, rehearsh has got 
to be a lookable Ah, but he 

421
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,440
never mentions it and any and 
when he does, he like says like 

422
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,200
it's like a spiritual resource, 
but it's like an taken over by 

423
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,800
magical thinking and goblins 
like it has been usurped. 

424
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,240
But then people say, well, maybe
he's only saying that because of

425
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:01,760
his audience. 
And you get this weird sort of 

426
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,200
para discussion that takes place
of like a person's original 

427
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,200
thinking. 
Why do I bring that up in 

428
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,640
reference to term Derek Hartz? 
Because Tyra, you know what? 

429
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,080
Tyra's Derek Hartz. 
Well, what is Derek Hartz? 

430
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,280
And that's not a new phrase. 
And that wasn't a new phrase in 

431
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,400
his time either. 
So what did he mean by that? 

432
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,000
As a philosophy of life and as a
principle of education? 

433
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,520
And I think the the reason why 
rehearsh is a we to draw these 

434
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,400
ideas together. 
Have you heard of Morichai 

435
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,680
Broya? 
Yeah. 

436
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,400
Ah, excellent. 
So he writes a fascinating 

437
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:32,600
essay, which I would encourage 
every. 

438
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,800
It's free online on distilling 
Rehearsh's philosophy. 

439
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,720
And I always found it great as 
a, as a, as a gateway drug to 

440
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,840
rehearsh is because he often, if
he's a good a, he's a good 

441
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,000
spokesman for Rehearsh. 
But also people know of Ramon 

442
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,520
Chai Breyer. 
So the way he refers to it, and,

443
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,480
and This is why, once again, I 
think it really connects to the 

444
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,080
modern world. 
He says Rehearsh's approach in a

445
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,760
philosophical sense as per the 
the his educational principle. 

446
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,840
To one side, what is Tyrant 
Darhartz? 

447
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,080
Tyrant Darhartz is you as an 
individual approaching the world

448
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,040
through Raphael's understanding 
the lens of Tyra, which means 

449
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,640
you approach the world as the 
raw material that the Tyra will 

450
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,040
give form to in. 
In a sense, the world around you

451
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,600
is part of your avoider session.
The world around you is the raw 

452
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,360
material in which you are 
supposed to live out your 

453
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,320
religious mission on. 
Which means there's not really a

454
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,480
secular religious split. 
He's explicit about this. 

455
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,120
There's no philosophy as 
secular, but religion is Tyra is

456
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:43,040
Tyra. 
It's like, no, in an ideal 

457
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,360
world, your philosophy should be
an integrated whole in your 

458
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:49,720
relationship to Tyra. 
Your science, your sociology, 

459
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,960
your psychology, you should be 
able to merge it all together 

460
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,640
with your Tyra to create. 
And this is the language of of 

461
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,200
Rothbroyer in a, in a Hegelian 
synthesis. 

462
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,880
When people say that something 
is a synthesis in the Hegelian 

463
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,640
sense of the word, you get to, 
you get your thesis and you get 

464
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,920
your antithesis and you create 
the synthesis. 

465
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,640
But the synthesis is an 
expression of the two on a 

466
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,480
higher level. 
So the Tyra, the Tyra, the 

467
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,680
Derkharts, and that includes 
culture, that includes good 

468
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,960
manners, that includes your job,
that includes what is involved 

469
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,760
in being a good citizen in the 
world. 

470
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,840
And those two merged together to
create a Jew, a Jew in the 

471
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,400
world. 
Which means if this is a 

472
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,840
principle that you're coming at 
the world through and you see, 

473
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,320
and people are saying whatever I
compose this forward, people 

474
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,960
like, well, they, they, they, 
they, they say, well, either 

475
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,320
they say, well, no, doesn't 
apply today. 

476
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,800
It only applies in 19th century 
Germany for some reason. 

477
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,400
Why? 
Because people look at the 

478
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,480
culture today and like the 
culture is so terrible. 

479
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,480
It's, it's, he couldn't have 
meant it today. 

480
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,720
No, he also had difficult 
culture in his time. 

481
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,280
It's like a difficult culture 
emerged in the 21st century. 

482
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,920
So, so the reason why I think of
Hersh is so powerful as a 

483
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,840
thinker today is any 
sophisticated, a nuanced way he 

484
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,520
gives an approach of how we look
at the world and integrate it 

485
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,720
into our lives with time. 
Which means you have the, the, 

486
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,320
the, the, the, your mission as a
Jew, the world you're 

487
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,400
experiencing, and you draw them 
both together to create a higher

488
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,520
reality, which we would call 
being a Jew in the world. 

489
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,480
It's not that you have your 
religious worldview and then you

490
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,440
have your secular worldview. 
They should be integrated into 

491
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,360
one. 
To give a practical example of 

492
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:34,680
this, Scheller, which was a a 
famous German poet Rehearsh was 

493
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,640
enamoured with. 
He wrote a beautiful hespert to 

494
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,600
his philosophy when he in his in
his high school. 

495
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,520
But there was also thinkers that
Rehearsh didn't agree with, 

496
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,640
philosophers he didn't agree 
with, and he didn't integrate 

497
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,000
their worldview. 
I always give the parallel today

498
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000
that you could think of thinkers
in today's world that their 

499
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,560
worldview is kind of not is Tyra
that's the wrong way to put it, 

500
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,560
but is the raw material Tyra 
should be making use of trying 

501
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,880
to think of a a modern 
philosopher, a modern thinker 

502
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,160
that would be Jonathan Height 
have. 

503
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,000
You heard of Jonathan Height? 
Yes, of course. 

504
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,840
We can envision that you will be
a better Jew in the world with 

505
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,720
that philosophy, that of, of 
moral foundationalism as part of

506
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,680
your tool kit. 
You can envision that you would 

507
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,400
be a better Jew in the world 
through looking at the world 

508
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,480
with that as part of your tool 
kit. 

509
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,960
And for refresh, then it would 
be and not just you should you 

510
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,400
could it is an obligation. 
Then you can't got the ability 

511
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,440
to be the ideal Jew without 
using the best errors of your 

512
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,000
time with your approach to Tyra,
which means you look through the

513
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,520
world almost like a an 
investigative thing. 

514
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,840
What good ideas are there are 
there for me to integrate into 

515
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,360
my worldview? 
Now, obviously, if they counter 

516
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,520
a Tyra perspective, they're not 
supposed to be integrated that 

517
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:46,840
that that's obviously that's 
clear. 

518
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,240
If you have A, and let's think 
of a good, a good example that 

519
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,560
you wouldn't want to integrate 
Michel Foucault in his, he's a, 

520
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,880
he's a postmodern philosopher. 
I think he was Jewish, but I'm 

521
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,000
not sure actually. 
But anyway, he had this idea 

522
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,520
that power dynamics were at the 
core of everything. 

523
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,120
Everything was power dynamics. 
You can envision that is not 

524
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:09,680
something that would would that 
would synthesize into a Tyra 

525
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,000
perspective because the Tyra 
would revolt at such a 

526
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,480
worldview. 
If you were trying to come up 

527
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,280
names of the trying to give 
another another. 

528
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,560
They're very famous. 
Once again, a Canadian thinker, 

529
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,320
Jordan Peterson. 
You can vision, there are 

530
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,320
perspectives in his world that 
would be like, wow, I am the 

531
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,200
better Jew in this language. 
And then you synthesize it into 

532
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,200
what it means to be a Jew. 
Now, obviously you've got to be 

533
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:37,400
careful. 
You've got to take advice, 

534
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:38,800
you've got to be try and be 
humble. 

535
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,240
But you look at the world not as
this external dead landscape 

536
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,360
where you as a Tyra person are 
kind of walking you through. 

537
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,880
It's like, no, the world is an 
integrated, a integrated 

538
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,120
potential for you to use through
your lens of Tyra. 

539
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,280
And as you grow in your Tyra, 
you grow in your approach to the

540
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,240
world, you'll become a better 
person. 

541
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,560
And that makes you as like not 
an alien on the world. 

542
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,520
It makes the world a part of the
story. 

543
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,400
It makes it makes history part 
of the story. 

544
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,280
When you learn history, do you 
see that the progression of 

545
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,920
history tending into a certain 
way? 

546
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,120
When things happen in history, 
you can look at them as a 

547
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,560
religiously significant, not 
that you start interpreting 

548
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,400
history, but when you when you 
when you when you see things in 

549
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,160
the world and you learn about 
ideas and you synthesize them 

550
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,680
into your Tyra perspective, you 
become a greater Jew through the

551
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,200
process. 
And I think that approach of 

552
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,760
Tyrion Derek Harris articulated 
like that I think could be 

553
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,040
powerful once again, a powerful 
perspective that people can 

554
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,160
integrate. 
And Rafesh gives a beautiful 

555
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,280
language rooted in the sources, 
rooted in the sources. 

556
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,960
And he is passionate about 
giving this over that. 

557
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,840
I think especially people in our
corner of the Internet would 

558
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,200
find a would find, if if nothing
else, just such great language 

559
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,040
to express ideas perhaps they 
already held before. 

560
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,360
You know, it actually gives a 
lot of new perspective to a 

561
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,360
phrase that people just, I think
you're very familiar with it, 

562
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,080
which is Derek Heritz, Karma la 
Torra, which is an idea that 

563
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,520
people usually associate with 
like, OK, what well mannered, 

564
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,600
you know, behavior and so on and
so forth. 

565
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,880
They don't really see it as like
as what you explained it. 

566
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,560
It's every aspect of the world, 
which is, you know, the, you 

567
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,880
need the raw materials. 
So in order to have the Torah, 

568
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,760
you know the tour, the tour has 
to infuse into those raw 

569
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:26,920
materials first. 
So if. 

570
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,040
Not. 
You have nothing to use. 

571
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,000
Exactly. 
It has, it has to come with 

572
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,720
that. 
So I think that, you know that 

573
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,200
that's just a very unique and I 
think powerful way of looking at

574
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,720
it. 
By the way, so it's just, it's 

575
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,840
just his side in a bizarre 
direction with Salia gone and 

576
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,920
his I've been teaching of Salia 
gone recently. 

577
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,440
And once again, it's one of 
those one of those farm that 

578
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,560
like he's so modern. 
I mean, obviously he's not he's 

579
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,160
1000 years old, but his 
language, he opens with an 

580
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,040
epistemology with his way of 
approaching the world and the 

581
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,800
the the way we gain information 
from the world. 

582
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,600
And he has four. 
And the last one is the 

583
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,600
tradition. 
I mean sense perception, obvious

584
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,680
ideas, reason. 
And like students are saying to 

585
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,840
me like, like, like, why is 
tradition the last one? 

586
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,280
I'm like, well, how did you come
to the tradition? 

587
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,360
What lit you there? 
What with the building box that 

588
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:14,640
got you? 
You didn't wake up. 

589
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,680
And like Judaism like the same 
way when it comes to, as you 

590
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,440
said, with rehearsh, I think 
it's Yukio Yakov Weinberg from 

591
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,440
Montre. 
I think it's three DH who, who, 

592
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,720
who in one of his essays about 
rehearsh, he says uses the edit 

593
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,240
in the Aristotelian sense. 
You, you, you have matter and 

594
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,880
you have form. 
You, the matter is the world you

595
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,960
can't have. 
I mean, it's, it's one of those 

596
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,920
things that when people, people 
who deny they have a philosophy 

597
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,840
are just not aware of that 
philosophy. 

598
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,200
In a similar way that when you 
have the raw material, you can 

599
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,160
deny that you're using the raw 
material, but that's just 

600
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,080
another way of using the raw 
material of the world. 

601
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,600
You cannot escape it. 
And being conscious about that, 

602
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,040
it's like a person does. 
I don't take anything in from 

603
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,320
the external world. 
Then you're just expressing your

604
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,280
blindness, my friend. 
Look at it in a positive way. 

605
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,680
And one of one of my, one of my 
teachers said that like, what is

606
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,160
more dangerous reading a, a 
philosophical work? 

607
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,600
Let's say you're reading thus so
thus Spoke Zarathustra from 

608
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,720
Friedrich Nietzsche, or you're 
reading something from one of 

609
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,160
the more existential 
philosophers like Jean Paul 

610
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,920
Sartre, where he would write in 
a, in the language of the like a

611
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,680
story, which is more dangerous. 
And people say, well, maybe 

612
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,000
Nietzsche because it's like 
really dangerous. 

613
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,680
It's like his ideas could 
integrate into your world. 

614
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,080
He's like, he's like, no, the 
dangerous 1 is when you don't 

615
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,480
realize you're reading a 
philosophical work. 

616
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,920
That's more dangerous in terms 
of but changing your perspective

617
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,800
and you're not aware that your 
world view is changing. 

618
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,760
If you're reading a 
philosophical text, you have the

619
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,520
correct guards up. 
Some ideas I will integrate. 

620
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,920
Some ideas I won't integrate 
because you'll be conscious 

621
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,760
about it. 
You're living a conscious life. 

622
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,120
If you read a philosophical 
story, the danger there is that 

623
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,000
you will adopt ideas that you 
never would have adopted if they

624
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,640
were written in treatise form. 
So it's it's idea that you are 

625
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,280
integrating whether you like it 
or not. 

626
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,840
The question is, can we do it 
consciously with the lenses that

627
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,360
we think are the highest set of 
values that we want to use to 

628
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,040
decide what comes in and what 
doesn't come in. 

629
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,840
And that's, as you said, White. 
Derek Eretz will have to come 

630
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,280
first. 
You know, there's something 

631
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,760
unique. 
We, we, we just discussed this 

632
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:18,160
with Steve Goldstein there, this
idea that a lot of people don't 

633
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,200
pay attention to, but like, you 
know, the Rishonim, the 

634
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,720
Sephardic Rishonim specifically,
they, they, they often times 

635
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,160
wrote about hash kafa and we 
don't see it so much of the 

636
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,560
Ashkenazi Rishonim and, and, 
and, and the like. 

637
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,240
But what's interesting is of 
Hirsch and, and Rabbi Sachs and,

638
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,680
and everyone who you mentioned 
before, they're very much, 

639
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,200
they're very much attuned to 
that and making us aware of 

640
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,720
these things. 
And I think that actually, you 

641
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,200
know, I think that's, that's why
Sephardic people, like many of 

642
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,680
our listeners would probably 
resonate a lot with ref sack 

643
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200
with ref Hirsch. 
So I just wanted to point that 

644
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,800
out. 
I think that it's, it's an 

645
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,520
interesting thing that we, we 
noticed in our previous 

646
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,040
discussion. 
But the next thing I wanted to 

647
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:11,000
ask you was Robbie Hirsch's 
approach to of Gothic literature

648
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,360
and Midrash and the Talmud. 
I think that that that's a topic

649
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,320
that obviously that got us 
together because we were having 

650
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,600
a discussion with Rabbi Eisen 
and you wanted to speak about 

651
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,920
this. 
So we'd like to know more about 

652
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,440
that. 
So what? 

653
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,280
The ideas of reversion are not 
new. 

654
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,040
And by the way, it's interesting
whatever big thing when big 

655
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,880
thing to say like I'm not 
telling you anything new. 

656
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,080
I'm, I'm telling you, I'm using 
different language to express 

657
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,320
similar ideas and the same when 
it comes to Gazza magic, 

658
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,560
miracles in the Talmud, science.
He's not saying anything new. 

659
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,400
He's just perhaps using 
different language. 

660
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,240
And I would say the most 
important aspect of rehearsh is 

661
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,440
a he looked at himself primarily
as an educator. 

662
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,760
Like for example, side point on 
this, on this topic, when I, 

663
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,480
you've heard the term Kirov, 
right, people do Kirov. 

664
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,840
So I'm involved in new students 
coming to do interest in Judaism

665
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,000
and people say to me, am I into 
do I do cure of? 

666
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,880
I say, well, I could answer in 
the same way, like in a very 

667
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,719
superficial way, but I say, no, 
I'm not. 

668
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,719
I'm, I'm a teacher. 
I show people my lens and if 

669
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,280
they find it interesting, well, 
it's part of their tradition. 

670
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,000
They're more than welcome to it.
And I feel a responsibility to 

671
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,600
display this lens. 
That's what Hersh does, meaning 

672
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,800
Hersh uses language to be an 
educator. 

673
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,080
And that's the goal. 
We're there to be to demonstrate

674
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,880
Judaism. 
Your responsibility in any 

675
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,480
educational context is to do 
your best to give the best 

676
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,159
lenses possible to Judaism. 
That's all you can do. 

677
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,560
You can't convince people to do 
anything, and God forbid you'd 

678
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,320
never want to. 
And that's true in Kirov in 

679
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,639
general, but also not to say 
that everybody approaches like 

680
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:52,920
that, but I do realize that I'm 
saying my language is not used 

681
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,320
to this. 
But the same with rehearsh. 

682
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,400
He he, his language is so 
special. 

683
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:03,080
And just to give an opening into
the area of the first point that

684
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,080
you realize when you read his 
essays on this topic is his, 

685
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,880
his, his, his humility, his, his
recognition that we're dealing 

686
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,480
with the Hakalim, we're dealing 
with the sages of the Jewish 

687
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,960
tradition. 
And he before he begins, 

688
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,920
especially considering he's 
going to be taking an approach 

689
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,520
that his interlocutor will not 
be taking and he has to 

690
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,920
sometimes be very falsehood 
about it. 

691
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,560
But he opens up with the 
importance of humility of who am

692
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,040
I in reference to the the sages.
And I find that such an 

693
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,680
important way of opening this 
conversation because it almost 

694
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,000
like he waxes poetically about 
it that we only are grasshoppers

695
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,120
in their shadows. 
Why is that so important? 

696
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,440
Because not only if you're going
to be saying something that 

697
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:50,440
might by some people sound 
negative towards the hakamai, 

698
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,040
you've got to make sure that you
phrase what you're phrasing in 

699
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,640
the correct framework. 
You're framing matters. 

700
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,600
Because if I tell you the 
Rafesha's ex about Agatha and we

701
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,640
have listeners, well, probably 
not on this particle, but in 

702
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,120
general, if someone hears that, 
like what? 

703
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,600
Like you can say that about the,
the the sages. 

704
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,080
Well, no, the first thing is the
humility on the point of rehash,

705
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,800
but also the greatness and the, 
the renown that he holds the 

706
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,080
sages in. 
And simply when it comes to 

707
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,840
Agatha, I think the most 
important way of a gatha 

708
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,480
specifically is Agatha is not 
synatic. 

709
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,880
That's the first point. 
It's not from Sinai. 

710
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,200
And that's, that's, that cannot 
be overemphasized from a Hersh's

711
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,680
table. 
And he speaks about when we see 

712
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,800
Agathator interplay with the 
halacha and he deals with them. 

713
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,360
And he is, he's the person who 
wrote in the letter, wrote 32 

714
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,920
examples to try and show that no
halacha and Agathator Rehersh's 

715
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,920
like the 1st and most important 
principle we need to articulate 

716
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,200
to our students. 
It's not synatic, it's not from 

717
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,600
Sinai, it's not a tradition from
Sinai. 

718
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,240
Which means the minute you blur 
the lines between a core 

719
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:55,480
principle of Judaism and a 
gazeta, you do the worst 

720
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,840
disservice spiritually and 
educationally to our students. 

721
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:04,760
Second of all, they're parables.
But definitionally a parable has

722
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,160
multiple interpretations. 
And that's OK because that was 

723
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,440
the genius of wise men. 
They would write in parables. 

724
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:14,640
But then to say that I found the
interpretation and I got the 

725
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,880
answer of this parable or this 
metaphor or this allegory that 

726
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,080
you, that doesn't make sense 
because the, the, the, the 

727
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,000
category of ideal you're dealing
with lends itself to multiple 

728
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,160
interpretations. 
So when it comes to a gazetor 

729
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,560
and understanding of gazetor in 
general, he's saying what the 

730
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,680
what the from high gone or 
Sharia gone with Nissan Rabeno 

731
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,920
Khanana. 
He's he's talking the Rambam. 

732
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,400
He's, he's, he's giving over 
these well trodden ideas, but 

733
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,040
he's using language of, well, 
first of all, modern language, 

734
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,680
but also the language of 
humidity and education, humidity

735
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:48,960
in reference to who we are 
dealing with. 

736
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,040
And second of all, education. 
Why are we speaking about this? 

737
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,040
We're speaking about this 
because education to ourselves, 

738
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,480
but also education towards our 
students, recognizing that when 

739
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,760
they come across ideas from 
Khazar that seem outlandish or 

740
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,400
difficult, you walk away with 
either them denigrating Khazar 

741
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,800
or them having a warped sense of
Judaism. 

742
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,840
And I think the unique part he 
has to play is the modern 

743
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,240
language he uses. 
Obviously it was in Germany. 

744
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:19,480
It's translated into English. 
But also he frames it in a way 

745
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,640
that you're not saying, well, 
Khazar aren't literal. 

746
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,280
Now, obviously that comes out 
from it, but not we're not 

747
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,240
taking Khazan in a literal way. 
And I understand there are 

748
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:27,960
different interpretations. 
There are some people that say 

749
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,120
no Midrashian and Afghanistan. 
And I know there's a distinction

750
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,480
between the two of them, but 
they are synaptic. 

751
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,720
They are traditions from Sinai. 
And I'm sure you can find 

752
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:39,120
sources for that. 
Bharath Harsh felt comfortable 

753
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,480
in saying yes, Well, first of 
all, that's a that that that's 

754
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,520
not the that's not how things 
began. 

755
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,560
I mean, he wasn't actually 
talking to someone necessarily 

756
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,320
who was quoting people who would
disagree with him. 

757
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,200
But his point is humility and 
the importance of education in 

758
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,640
talking about these ideas. 
But that in a more not radical 

759
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,200
way, in a more like extreme way,
parallel some to questions and 

760
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,760
miracles that happen in the 
tumbled a person. 

761
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,240
Let's say you've got a student 
who, OK, I get you, I've got 

762
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:08,280
that. 
But what about the tunnel 

763
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,920
Shanakanai, the oven where the, 
the Kumar that discusses the 

764
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,560
water's going up, water's going 
down, caves going in and the 

765
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,040
other, what do you do with that?
And this once again, this, this,

766
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,240
this idea. 
So the way he had tick sacks 

767
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,120
this, this. 
So he's like, I'm OK with that 

768
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,840
being a miracle. 
I am, I'm OK with that. 

769
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:25,760
I'm OK with that. 
I'm OK with and he gives an 

770
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,680
interpretation like why I 
haven't got a problem of 

771
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,160
understanding the, the stories 
in the Gemara as being miracles.

772
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:36,000
I, I'm, I'm OK with that. 
But am I going to push aside 

773
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,600
someone who isn't OK with that? 
This is where he brings, he 

774
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,040
brings Ribeno Khanala as an 
example. 

775
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,800
Am I going to say I'm greater 
than Ribeno Khanala that I'm 

776
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,400
going to be able to? 
And Ribeno Khanala gives an 

777
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,720
interpretation that was a dream 
about without going to the 

778
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,320
details. 
But the miracle didn't actually 

779
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,040
happen. 
Let's say someone's like, you 

780
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:53,680
know, I'm struggling with that 
actually happening. 

781
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,520
If you're telling me it's a 
principle of faith, I'll cross 

782
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,040
that bridge. 
But really like I get I get 

783
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,280
Sinai. 
I get the splitting of the sea. 

784
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,840
OK, I'm with you on that. 
I can I by the way, the whole 

785
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,080
topic about what what do we 
actually mean when we say we 

786
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,360
believe these ideas? 
I think that's a a whole topic 

787
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,040
in of itself. 
But let's see, I say on whatever

788
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,800
level it means that I can 
integrate them into my 

789
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,880
worldview. 
But this really like like, I 

790
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,040
don't know, post the destruction
of the temple, like really 

791
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,800
miracles like that was actually 
happening and refreshes like I'm

792
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,400
going to push him away. 
I'm going to say that he's, 

793
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,200
he's, he's not part of the 
circle. 

794
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,600
And once again, the, the 
framing, the humility, and I 

795
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,600
can't stress that humility 
enough because if you, even if a

796
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,560
person comes at this with a no, 
everything's literal, you cannot

797
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,840
walk away thinking the rehearsh 
is being negative towards, 

798
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,360
towards Hazar. 
And I always, I often find when 

799
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,800
these conversations are 
happening, not enough emphasis 

800
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,040
is put on who we are dealing 
with, Not in a way that we're 

801
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,480
making them into gods, but like,
these are the Jewish people. 

802
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,480
And I think Robbie Dweck said so
beautifully, you have to be a 

803
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,440
Hakan to understand. 
We have to we can't just assume.

804
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,840
And then when what do they mean 
by that? 

805
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,960
No be and then look at the the 
sages and then decide whether 

806
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,480
you can what they're talking 
about. 

807
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,600
But that point that he opens up 
with humility. 

808
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,680
The reason we're doing we're 
having this conversation is 

809
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,080
because of education. 
And then lastly, the canopy. 

810
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,640
Do I want to make everything a 
principle of faith? 

811
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,680
Like do really do I want to do 
that? 

812
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,080
Is that a healthy thing to do? 
If something is, then let's 

813
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,160
cross that bridge. 
But if it's not, and I can show 

814
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,800
the basis for other thinkers 
taking these sorts of 

815
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,920
approaches, I might not agree 
with them, but that's definitely

816
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,200
a path that people can tread. 
Very well said and. 

817
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,000
Very well said and very 
important, very fundamental. 

818
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,840
Oh, by the way, and it's just a 
side point that in terms of 

819
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,720
magic, once again, his approach 
to magic. 

820
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,520
Now this is perhaps harder for 
some people, but he says, what 

821
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,320
about magic? 
Magic exists. 

822
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,480
I, I, I taught a class on magic 
the other day and people love 

823
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,120
magic. 
By the way, an interesting 

824
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,120
sociological point. 
People who claim that they're 

825
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,800
not religious on on reports like
the the nuns, I think they call 

826
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,520
them the people who say nun to 
no to they, they don't have any 

827
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,440
religion. 
They they 80% of them believe in

828
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,560
ghosts, which is which is 
because because in my sense, if 

829
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,120
I'm going to say, listen, I 
don't hold a religious one of 

830
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,120
you, the motivation for doing 
that would be my my reason, my 

831
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,920
difficulty with integrating 
spiritualistic concepts. 

832
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,040
I would say, OK, no, funny. 
Interesting enough, that's not 

833
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,880
the case. 
They're good with ghosts. 

834
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,560
I don't believe in ghosts, but I
I struggle with a religious 

835
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,080
perspective of integrating 
things I can't see and ideas. 

836
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,720
But people who say none to 
religion, 80% of them believe in

837
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:37,880
ghosts. 
So I think it's hysterical, but 

838
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,760
but magic. 
What about magic? 

839
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,720
So Rathers says the to cut a 
Long story short, am I going to 

840
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:46,320
put my head between two 
mountains? 

841
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,000
The Rambam in the Ramban, does 
it make first of all, does it 

842
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,320
make any difference to me in the
Today, in the here and now? 

843
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,400
But also we have two legitimate 
perspectives in the Jewish 

844
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,200
tradition. 
Am I going to shove my head 

845
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,520
between these two mountains and 
say which one was true? 

846
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,280
And once again, that's that's 
once again widening the canopy. 

847
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,840
A person reads that and like, 
like my, I love magic. 

848
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,280
I'm Harry Potter all the way. 
I love it. 

849
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:09,920
And that's by the way, that's 
great. 

850
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,600
And there is a, a, there's a 
space with the tradition for you

851
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,080
to be able to sit. 
And especially because even 

852
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,560
people who take that approach 
all often would say it doesn't 

853
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,720
exist today. 
But the point by making is that 

854
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,400
a person who says that, listen, 
I can't integrate magic into my 

855
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,040
world. 
That doesn't, that doesn't make 

856
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,160
sense. 
There is a space for you as 

857
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:28,800
well. 
And the importance of having 

858
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,920
that canopy, being able to shade
as many people as possible. 

859
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,720
I think it's also an important 
principle that we that that in a

860
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:38,400
modern sense, especially when it
comes to our avatar, magic, 

861
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,360
astrology, whatever it may be, 
is an an important valuable idea

862
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,080
that Refersh gives us. 
Yeah. 

863
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,480
I mean, as far as him, again, 
I'm going to say again that it 

864
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,400
really resonates because we come
from community that is, you 

865
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,440
know, welcoming of different 
ideas. 

866
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:54,840
That's the way it's supposed to 
be. 

867
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,720
And I think, I think Rev Hirsch,
obviously he he represents that 

868
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:03,720
because he's constantly as, as 
you mentioned, he's constantly 

869
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,720
trying to make space for these 
different viewpoints. 

870
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:08,960
And I think that it's extremely 
refreshing. 

871
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,320
So to, to, to, to, to damage my 
presentation just for a second. 

872
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,160
He was also a, a, a major canoe.
When he thought something was 

873
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,200
bad, he would, he, he had this 
idea of, of cessation. 

874
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,240
He would, he cut himself off for
the rest of the orthodox 

875
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:28,800
community because he felt they 
were compromising to reform too 

876
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,200
much. 
And people criticized him 

877
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,320
heavily for that, this idea of 
that. 

878
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,800
I'll give you a fun anecdote. 
You've heard of Abraham Geiger. 

879
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,680
Sure. 
Right, so he was a bend bias in 

880
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,120
Refresh's house. 
Next thing once again, it's an 

881
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,880
interesting historical point, 
but Geiger would give a Abraham 

882
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,280
Geiger would write a wrote a an 
experience of him learning with 

883
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,760
him. 
Every morning they would have a 

884
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,440
Haversa shaft where they would 
learn toastmas to hit them 

885
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,080
together and then cat they would
have a they would have a Carusa 

886
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:01,880
in obviously all these important
key topics like, but there was 

887
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,880
some time where they were 
learning Hegel and apparently 

888
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,480
first got very upset about an 
idea and wanted to burn the 

889
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,040
book. 
And guy was like, it's a library

890
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,120
book and he was labeled meaning 
he had that that that like if 

891
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,600
something was bad, he had a 
passion for the bad as well as 

892
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:22,240
the good. 
So it's something was like the 

893
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,720
the antithesis of what Judaism 
was holding. 

894
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,320
He would be clear about it as 
well and say, OK, beyond the 

895
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,240
pale. 
And I I'm not integrating this. 

896
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,000
So I'm saying he had he had the 
he had both sides as well. 

897
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,240
Meaning. 
Yeah, I thought it was a bit a 

898
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:38,200
fun, a fun, fun point. 
By the way, just another fun 

899
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:39,840
point. 
You've that one of Hersh's 

900
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,240
grandsons, another fascinating 
thinker called Isaac Breyer of 

901
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:45,600
Isaac Breyer. 
Now he has a he's he's the one 

902
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,160
who was around during the 
beginning, the start in the 

903
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,080
state. 
He knew Ruth Cook in his living 

904
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,280
room. 
He had two portraits, one of her

905
00:45:53,280 --> 00:46:00,480
Pash and one of Emmanuel Kat. 
OK, I say like, and, and the, 

906
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,480
the, the, the, the people today 
would be like, well, that's 

907
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,800
insane. 
Why you've got Kant on your 

908
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,240
wall. 
They'd be like, because because 

909
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,360
Kant gave me tools that that 
allowed me to understand Judaism

910
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,200
in a way that like that, that, 
that, that animated every aspect

911
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,240
of his life. 
And it was like, it wasn't a bad

912
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:16,840
thing that he happened not to be
Jewish. 

913
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,520
It was, it was OK. 
That was just where the where 

914
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,840
that that that that where the 
sage happened to be. 

915
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,560
I feel like this also really 
helps if the whole idea with 

916
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,040
Harambeam and Aristotle. 
Yeah, just thinking. 

917
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,400
About you were thinking that 
too, like, you know, that it's 

918
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,400
always all this like controversy
and hoopla like Aristotle and 

919
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,320
Aristotle, that Aristotle was a 
tool that was used for that, for

920
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:43,240
Harambeam to, to, to articulate 
Judaism in in a way which 

921
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:47,480
previously was not able to, to 
be articulated literally what 

922
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:48,720
you're saying. 
Yeah. 

923
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:53,080
Yeah, and and and it's a it, it,
it, it sidelines to the whole 

924
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,920
Hazel and science as well. 
It's and I understand there are 

925
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,680
different perspectives, but 
Rupesh was was was put the Hazel

926
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,040
besides that being masters in 
Tyra, they were masters in or 

927
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,880
masters or they mastered, excuse
me, the tools that they had in 

928
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,840
front of them. 
Now, when it comes to science, 

929
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,120
those tools change and that's 
what that's not being 

930
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,400
denigrated. 
That's the reality they were 

931
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,600
living with. 
So there are certain 

932
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,280
specifically when it comes to 
science, the idea of the 

933
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,880
longevity of tools obviously has
an issue because our 

934
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,480
understanding of the natural 
world changes. 

935
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,720
But yeah, the, the conceptual 
tools we get from people and the

936
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:41,080
way of approaching the world is 
a is is is a is is. 

937
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,880
As I said, I, I, you could 
envision the Rumbam having a 

938
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,560
portrait of Aristotle. 
I mean, I don't know if you 

939
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,640
would do portraits, but you can 
envision the way he speaks of 

940
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,080
Aristotle. 
It's like this person knew the 

941
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,320
world in a way that like, like 
when I, when I try and get 

942
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,960
people to appreciate the genius 
of Aristotle and people find 

943
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,640
that difficult to really, we 
speak of the Rumbam and we 

944
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,080
people don't sit down and go 
through the Nike media, Netflix.

945
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,600
I haven't either. 
But my point is we we don't, we 

946
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,600
don't really sit with the 
appreciate the genius of these 

947
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,000
people. 
There's this idea called the 

948
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,960
square of opposition, which is a
logical construct that Aristotle

949
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,840
made. 
It's a way of illustrating 

950
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,000
logical relationships that 
Aristotle basically condensed 

951
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,560
all of logic into a box. 
And when you see that and you're

952
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:25,480
like that, that there is such 
genius to come up with this 

953
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,600
without going into why it's 
because it's called, but it's a,

954
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,400
it's a, it's once again, as you 
say, it's the key tools that we 

955
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,960
use that without them we are 
more impoverished Jews and our 

956
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,600
ability to serve Hashem is 
impoverished. 

957
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:43,160
Our teacher Robert Maroof gave 
us a class on Mourne Wukima. 

958
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,360
In the first class he gave to us
first. 

959
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,440
First class I remember clearly 
he he was praising Aristotle and

960
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:55,280
he said he's like people don't 
realize, but every single the 

961
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,800
way we go about everything, it's
due to Aristotle, logic, 

962
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:04,160
mathematics, science or every 
single subject that is taught 

963
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:09,040
and used in every field of life 
was really because of Aristotle.

964
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,920
Like, like we don't even know 
it, but like, like we're 

965
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,840
indebted without everything that
that's like the whole modern 

966
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,880
world is built off of 
Aristotle's logic and, and his, 

967
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,640
his development of all these 
different subjects. 

968
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,120
Like you, you, you can't move 
without him. 

969
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,600
And you just don't know that. 
So you have to, you have to 

970
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,280
appreciate that. 
You can't just look at it and 

971
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,520
say, oh boy, it doesn't work 
like that. 

972
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:33,320
You know what I mean? 
Like. 

973
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,720
Now that you you brought up the,
you know, his, his scientific 

974
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:45,600
worldview, how does that relate 
to his understanding of Jewish 

975
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,600
texts? 
So it's actually interesting, 

976
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:53,840
interesting when it comes to a 
person science, it's a he was 

977
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,640
clearly enamored with it, but it
doesn't actually it obviously 

978
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,240
his works. 
He speaks about it, but in a way

979
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,160
what makes his work so timeless 
is that he actually doesn't 

980
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,560
integrate science explicitly 
into his, for example, his 

981
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,200
interpretations of of not of the
tyrant. 

982
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,360
Explain what I mean by that. 
If we take something like it, 

983
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,320
it, I mean, it doesn't, it 
doesn't. 

984
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:18,760
Perhaps it's a good way of 
explaining it. 

985
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,080
The danger of, of when you write
you, you, let's say, describe 

986
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,360
ideas from the tyrant through a 
scientific lens. 

987
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,760
The danger is that the science 
will develop and thereby your 

988
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,960
interpretation will become, you 
know, just not interesting 

989
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,680
anymore. 
It's just not valuable because 

990
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,640
we don't look at the world 
through those lenses anymore. 

991
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:40,200
Unless you're like, as I said, 
unless you're as great as the 

992
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,360
rumbam where your ideas are, 
are, are are so valuable and 

993
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,320
universal. 
Even though the scientific 

994
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,800
framework may have disappeared 
his value, his ideas still have 

995
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,880
their staying power. 
That's a rare thing. 

996
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:57,560
That is a rare thing. 
Rupesh didn't integrate science 

997
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,000
into his understanding, except I
think there's one time when he 

998
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,080
talks about Saras where he talks
about in his, when he talks 

999
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,920
about leprosy specifically and 
he tries to show whenever 

1000
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,240
Raphersh gives a reason for the 
commandment, he, he doesn't just

1001
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,440
he approaches it in a, in a, in 
a scientific way. 

1002
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,640
He has a hypothesis. 
He then investigates the 

1003
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,200
hypothesis through the written 
and oral law, which means he 

1004
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:26,040
needs his idea to thread its way
out not only in terms of its 

1005
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,040
understanding from a symbolic 
standpoint of the Tyra as it as 

1006
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,920
it's expressed in the tire, but 
also the Gomorras and halacha. 

1007
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,520
The more he can, the more 
particulars he can bring 

1008
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,600
together to make sense of his 
reason, the richer he finds his 

1009
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,080
reason. 
And there's one time during 

1010
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,720
Sarras where he tries to show 
that it's not a natural element,

1011
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:48,760
tries to show and he tries to 
show that people call it 

1012
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:50,360
leprosy. 
He says our understanding of 

1013
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,920
leprosy clearly isn't this. 
That is I think the only time he

1014
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,120
brings modern science into his 
interpretation in his hommish. 

1015
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:58,560
But that doesn't mean it doesn't
have a place. 

1016
00:51:58,560 --> 00:51:59,760
And I explain what I mean by 
that. 

1017
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,440
Take evolution as an example. 
Evolution a contentious issue. 

1018
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,680
And the same way when I say 
about Hazan science and I have 

1019
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,480
teachers that I respect who take
different views in this area, 

1020
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,360
which is fair. 
So when it comes to evolution, 

1021
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,840
how do you approach evolution? 
Because it was it was A to say 

1022
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,440
it was a, a hypothesis and in 
his time it actually was. 

1023
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,240
Does that make sense? 
Like nowadays, it's not really 

1024
00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:23,800
like that anymore. 
It's that people use like, oh, 

1025
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,320
it's only a theory. 
No, no, it's not theory. 

1026
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:27,920
Like like that people think 
theory. 

1027
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,920
But in his day, when it was 
first emerging, it was a new 

1028
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,080
idea. 
And from a scientific 

1029
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,040
standpoint, he says quite 
simply, well, if this grain 

1030
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,280
gains traction and the and 
becomes accepted by the majority

1031
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,840
of the scientists, rather we'll 
show how this will be 

1032
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,600
incorporated into our 
understanding of the tiger. 

1033
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,160
Excellent. 
So like, not, not a big deal. 

1034
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,080
Just like, yeah, we'll just see 
how this idea integrates. 

1035
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,600
But then how does that emerge in
his actual parish of the Comish?

1036
00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:00,200
It it emerges as a, a, a 
philosophical morning. 

1037
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,800
What I mean by that is he will 
warn of the dangers of allowing 

1038
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,000
evolution to become a philosophy
of life. 

1039
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,880
For example, the philosophy 
evolution as a a, as a way of 

1040
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:19,520
describing the natural world, 
natural selection, working off a

1041
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,200
genetic mutation, that's a way 
of describing the natural world.

1042
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,360
That's great. 
And that there can be a beauty 

1043
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,880
and A and A and a drawing 
towards God that can emerge 

1044
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,080
through that. 
But if you then make it into a 

1045
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,040
philosophy, you then come up 
with Herbert Spencer and 

1046
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,400
eugenics. 
If you then use it as a way of 

1047
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:41,000
viewing the world, you come up 
with Karl Marx and the the lower

1048
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,960
form of life, the bourgeoisie 
and the proletariat and the 

1049
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:48,000
dialectic of history, and 
everything becomes natural that 

1050
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,560
he would work against. 
And social Darwinism. 

1051
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,160
Exactly, exactly, and by the 
way, the the language he uses, 

1052
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,320
he he then latches it on to 
You'll love this on Baal Paar. 

1053
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:05,360
What's Baal Paar in the story of
Bilam and Balak, you have this 

1054
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:10,440
him taking them to different 
mounting tops Baal and then you 

1055
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,960
have the Sedai, I think serum 
and then you have baal par. 

1056
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,160
And he shows that each one of 
them illustrates a different way

1057
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,240
of trying to find an opening in 
the Jewish people's worldview 

1058
00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:22,200
that you can draw God's eye at 
them. 

1059
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,880
He says, what's baal par Now as 
kids, we will learn in religious

1060
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,400
schools like what's baal par to 
obviously not be explicit. 

1061
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,840
You basically go to the bathroom
in front of it and people are 

1062
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,440
like, that's weird. 
Why would you do that? 

1063
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,440
And Raphael says it's called the
God of shamelessness. 

1064
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:42,320
And Raphael says the, the, the, 
the, the factor that holds us to

1065
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,480
the moral law, to God's will is 
to an extent our conscious, our 

1066
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,320
conscience shame. 
But if I could erode that, if I 

1067
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,400
can show I am just an animal and
express that symbolic with a 

1068
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,600
symbolic ritual drama through 
acting in a way that the entire 

1069
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,640
natural world shares from animal
to plant to human. 

1070
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,600
If we all pass our waste. 
And he looked at that as a way 

1071
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,960
of demonstrating you are just 
almost like a, a, a, a, a, a, a 

1072
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,680
philosophical materialism that 
you are just matter. 

1073
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,480
You can express that through 
this idol and erode and practice

1074
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,080
eroding your shame to the point 
where you have none. 

1075
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,960
And so you see a philosophical 
principle emerging from a, from 

1076
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,160
his point of view, you could 
look at it emerging from a 

1077
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:30,200
scientific idea where we are 
just I know, I know on the, the 

1078
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,480
in the, in the language of 
Darwin, after he wrote the 

1079
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,280
Origin of Species, he wrote the 
Descent of man. 

1080
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,240
That rehearsal would have felt 
very dangerous where you have 

1081
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:41,280
the idea emerge as a philosophy 
and thereby it's also opens up 

1082
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,600
to a whole conversation about 
why what was so dangerous about 

1083
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,240
like why was idolatry dangerous?
Why was it a bad thing? 

1084
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,600
This is an example of where 
rehearsal sees one idol 

1085
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:53,120
illustrating something that is 
so morally corrupt, but not just

1086
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:54,960
morally corrupt. 
You train yourself in moral 

1087
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,120
corruption as trying to level 
the playing field between you 

1088
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,800
and every other part of the 
natural world. 

1089
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,000
So that, that that would be a 
way. 

1090
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,800
And he, he, I'm pretty sure he 
uses the word social Darwinism. 

1091
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:10,840
He uses the idea of Darwinism 
having a, a, a, a philosophical 

1092
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,960
effect where it really is a way 
of describing the natural world.

1093
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,480
So that's I think is a good 
perhaps a way of showing that. 

1094
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:21,720
You sold me on that. 
That bapa or explanation was 

1095
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:23,800
phenomenal. 
Yeah, by the way, really 

1096
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:25,560
interesting. 
Really interesting. 

1097
00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:31,520
The quote, the beauty about 
rehearsh is his ideas are so 

1098
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,120
good. 
I was saying to Rifka, whenever 

1099
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,680
I'm not learning rehearsh, like 
I obviously learn other other 

1100
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,120
things as well. 
But when I, when I, when I 

1101
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,400
always go back to him, some of 
his interpretations, they just 

1102
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:42,560
oh, can I, can I give you, can I
give you just another exact? 

1103
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,600
We, we spoke about Madrid. 
We spoke about Madrid. 

1104
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,400
Like how does rehearsh interpret
Madrid? 

1105
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,560
Good question. 
It's a good question. 

1106
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,560
Now he doesn't have a book on 
interpreting Madrid, but when he

1107
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,280
quotes a Madrid, it's a way of 
like integrating into a symbolic

1108
00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:00,920
idea. 
We just had, we just had the 

1109
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,360
latter, Jacob's Ladder, we had 
the story of the latter. 

1110
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,400
So he said the latter 
interstates 3 truths. 

1111
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:12,000
The first truth is that the goal
transcends the natural world 

1112
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,400
meaning the I, the any, any, any
meaning, any meaning. 

1113
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:18,720
To give meaning to a system, the
meaning has to come from outside

1114
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,360
the system. 
So that against the heavens, 

1115
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,960
that's the, the distinction 
between the terrestrial world 

1116
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:24,920
and the, and the, and the world 
beyond. 

1117
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,160
That's the first truth. 
The symbol is giving over. 

1118
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,160
So the second truth, this is 
where the Medridge comes into 

1119
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,400
play, Says the angels are going 
up and going down. 

1120
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:36,480
What were they doing? 
The angels were going up and 

1121
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,080
they were looking on the throne 
of glory and they saw Jacob's 

1122
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,000
face engraved on the throne of 
glory. 

1123
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,120
Be beautiful. 
And they were coming and looking

1124
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,920
at Yaakov below and Rappersh 
sees that as the illustration of

1125
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,840
the world, that the ideal and 
how things actually are and they

1126
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,560
are comparing the two. 
Thereby you get that oughtness, 

1127
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,920
the world as it ideally should 
be and how we are living out the

1128
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,360
world today. 
And and and and then then, yeah,

1129
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,680
so that's a good example. 
And in this week's partial you 

1130
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:13,520
have the the the the wrestling 
match and the and the Hazel talk

1131
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,680
about the dust that's kicked up 
that reached the heavens and 

1132
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,800
reached God's stroke. 
It's like what's that trying to 

1133
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:23,560
that's trying to say that what's
happening here has historical 

1134
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,800
and cosmic significance. 
You have the, the, the drama of 

1135
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,440
Jacob wrestling, the the story 
of the Jewish people throughout 

1136
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,360
history that we are damaged. 
We are, we have no foundation, 

1137
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,120
the foundation of power that 
every other nation has that 

1138
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:40,320
keeps their survival. 
We don't have that because we 

1139
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,720
are damaged our leg, we have no 
foundation and that principle 

1140
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,320
that the the Jewish people will 
still hold on. 

1141
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:51,440
We will still hold on Is is is 
has has has cosmic significance 

1142
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:52,880
because that is the story of the
Jewish people. 

1143
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,120
And that's consult using that 
language of reaching the throne 

1144
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,600
of glory to illustrate the 
cosmic nature of it and the way 

1145
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,640
he ends it. 
He says, what point do we hold 

1146
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:04,760
on to? 
Why are we holding on until they

1147
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:09,800
bless us, until the world this 
is so beautiful recognizes that 

1148
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,920
what we've been doing this whole
time has not been only for us, 

1149
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,960
it's been for you as well. 
We're part of the same story 

1150
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,560
until you bless us and recognize
that we've been doing this for 

1151
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,400
you. 
We've been doing this for all of

1152
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,400
us together as children of God. 
So yeah. 

1153
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,280
Absolutely stunning. 
Stunning. 

1154
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:27,680
I love that. 
Wow. 

1155
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,600
Amazing that is. 
He's he's awesome. 

1156
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:33,520
He's awesome. 
He's. 

1157
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:35,280
Awesome, you're great at 
expressing it too. 

1158
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,280
So yeah, excellent articulation,
articulation of fantastic. 

1159
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,280
We, we want to thank you for 
coming on the podcast. 

1160
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,480
It's been a pleasure. 
We learned a lot from you and I 

1161
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:50,000
think you've inspired a lot of 
people to listen to study Rob 

1162
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,320
Hirsch. 
And that's that's our hope from 

1163
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,600
all this. 
And we want to also ask you 

1164
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:00,120
where everyone could find you. 
So I have a podcast on Spotify 

1165
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,120
called Judaism From Within, 
which was Repairsh's slogan, 

1166
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,440
which a whole topic. 
Why that's his slogan. 

1167
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,080
It's on the OU as well where I 
teach Kharad specifically, but 

1168
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,000
this one also integrate 
PowerShot ideas as well. 

1169
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,560
You had also run Adlestein on 
your podcast as well. 

1170
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:18,640
Together with Rabbi Eisen, Yes, 
right. 

1171
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,400
So I do a podcast with 
Eisenstein on. 

1172
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,560
It's called 22 Rabbi's Three 
Opinions. 

1173
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:25,960
It's more of a schmooze on 
interesting ideas. 

1174
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,440
He's the man. 
He's the I love Rabbi. 

1175
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,960
It's yeah, he's like the, the 
yeah, no, he's a yeah. 

1176
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,640
So that's another podcast I do 
with him and yeah, that's my I 

1177
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:38,760
teach. 
I should mention I teach in 

1178
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,760
Chappelle's and in Madrasahal 
and Madrasah Tina. 

1179
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:43,960
Those are the places that I I 
teach the people might have 

1180
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,640
heard of in case they want to 
check out on their websites. 

1181
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:49,880
Guys, thank you so much. 
It was an absolute pleasure. 

1182
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,480
I really but proper honor. 
Thank you and that I didn't know

1183
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,880
about this podcast you had with.
Let's check it out. 

1184
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,920
We're going to check it out, but
that might be a great crossover 

1185
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,440
podcast if you want to have them
together and maybe we can make 

1186
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,520
it expand the schmooze. 
For sure, because especially he 

1187
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:05,920
has a different, he's a very 
different. 

1188
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:07,200
There's a very different 
audience that comes. 

1189
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:08,960
He's got the whole other side of
his life there. 

1190
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:10,560
So it's a very yeah, that'd be 
cool. 

1191
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,360
Love to mention that to him. 
Yeah, very cool. 

1192
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:14,240
Excellent. 
That's fantastic, Shavuto. 

1193
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,520
I just want to say one thing. 
One thing I noticed about you 

1194
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:21,480
that jumps out at me. 
You are you when you talk about 

1195
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,480
Robert Hirsch and when you talk 
about Judaism in general, I see 

1196
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:29,120
like a joy comes out of you like
you, you, you have a joy when 

1197
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,520
you talk about Judaism. 
And if Rabbi Hirsch has has 

1198
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:37,520
enabled that in you, then that 
that in itself to me shows like 

1199
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:43,000
you know, that that's it's, it's
worth looking into and it's 

1200
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,680
worth learning of repurchase 
tour because I see the joy that 

1201
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,920
you talk about Judaism when 
you're talking about it through 

1202
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:51,440
his lens. 
And it's powerful. 

1203
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,800
It's powerful. 
That's that's humbling. 

1204
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,840
Thank you. 
That's that's cool. 

1205
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:56,680
That's cool. 
I appreciate. 

1206
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,400
That you're very welcome. 
We hope to do it again. 

1207
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:03,600
Very cool guys. 
Hope that everyone will. 

1208
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:04,360
Thank you. 
This was. 

1209
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:05,440
Fantastic. 
Thank you. 

1210
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:06,600
Thank you very much.