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Welcome to Judaism demystified a
podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics, with our 
esteemed guests by tackling some

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of the biggest questions you 
likely won't find addressed 

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elsewhere. 
We aim to shed light on 

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important issues and inspire a 
return to the fundamentals, 

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enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism demystified podcast. 
We are joined by Dr. Marcus 

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simkovich again, Dr. Simkovich. 
We thank you so much for joining

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us again. 
We really had a blast through 

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the first time and we actually 
had so much feedback. 

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So many people message us, email
us sent us messages that they 

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loved this episode and we have 
to have you on again and we're 

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so happy. 
We're able to do this again. 

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So if you could just tell our 
audience a little bit about 

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yourself, if they have missed 
the first episode and what 

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you're up to That sounds great. 
First of all it's good to see 

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both of you. 
Thank you for having me back. 

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I think that when we recorded 
that first podcast, I was a 

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professor of Judaism at Catholic
theological Union, and I was a 

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director of Catholic Church 
studies there for 10 years and 

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I've left, I've left a year ago,
I'm now the Editor in Chief of 

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the Jewish publication society 
and a visiting professor at 

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Yeshiva, University's Revel, 
graduate school for Jewish 

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studies. 
So, a little bit of a pivot for 

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me, I'm now facing the Jewish 
world and still having fun. 

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Beautiful. 
Excellent. 

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So we want to touch about we 
want to talk about your eye 

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opening book, discovering 
second, temple literature, why 

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did you think it was so 
important to detail to the 

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readers? 
The events that surrounded? 

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The finding of the Cairo ganesa 
and Dead Sea Scrolls and what 

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did you hope the readers would 
take out of it? 

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first of all, I had a little bit
of a, Of a thought that maybe 

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opening up with some fun 
intriguing, journeys of 

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Discovery would grab the reader.
So there's just the the cheap 

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answer that these are incredible
stories of how modern Scholars 

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explorers religious leaders 
serendipitously Came Upon a body

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of literature that opened them 
up into this world of second 

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temple. 
Judaism that really was not a 

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discipline. 
It was not a field until 

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relatively recently and entering
into this world. 

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And answered many questions. 
About how we get from the world 

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of the Tanakh, the world of the 
Hebrew Bible, or for Christians,

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the world of the Old Testament, 
into the world of the early 

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Common Era for Jews. 
That would be the world of the 

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rabbis for Christians. 
It would be the life of Jesus, 

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but we're talking about 600 
centuries. 

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Sorry, 600 years or so, from the
end of the Babylonian exile 

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which ends in around 5:38 BCE 
until the temple Falls in 70 CE.

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That's a huge amount of time. 
Just to conceptualize how much 

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time we're talking think about 
before Shakespeare write you 

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wouldn't understand the English 
that people spoke maybe there 

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was some kind of English, but 
you wouldn't recognize that that

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society as belonging to you, I 
don't think. 

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And again, of course, what's 
Society? 

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Am I talking about Shakespeare's
England, am I talking about 

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other parts of Europe? 
I'm not even sure, but the point

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is is that whatever the world 
looked like here in America or 

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in Europe or elsewhere or 
Israel, whatever. 

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The world looked like was 
totally different than the world

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that we know today. 
And sometimes we forget that and

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we think about this is an 
inconsequential era of Jewish 

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history. 
We don't really need to know it,

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the literature that Jews 
produced during this time mostly

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was not canonized or preserved 
by the rabbis therefore is of 

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little or no religious value. 
And so what we do is we jump 

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from the end of the Tanakh, the 
beginning of the rabbinic era 

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and we kind of connect, those 
late biblical figures figures, 

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like Ezra and Danielle to the 
world of the wrap eyes and in 

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doing so. 
We turn those late figures into 

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Essentially, Proto rabbis this. 
is helpful in a way because We 

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had this kind of vacuum this, 
we're at least a vacuum in our 

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minds what takes place in 
between. 

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But these stories are again, 
incredible stories of discovery 

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that all. 
So tell us how random and 

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serendipitous and surprising and
unpredictable the the collection

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of data can be this really is 
not a story of systematic 

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research. 
And it reminds us that what we 

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know today about the second 
temple era and other errors in 

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Jewish history is really the 
product of a lot of serendipity 

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and a lot of luck. 
And it also reminds us that 

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there is So much, that is lost. 
If we have a couple thousand 

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pages of Jewish literature from 
the Hellenistic era that 

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survived over two Millennia, you
can safely assume that there are

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hundreds of thousands of pages 
or millions of pages that were 

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produced by Jews of religious 
nature that were not preserved. 

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So, what we have is a reflection
of serendipity, or you could 

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say, Gaga of luck but I think 
it's humbling to know that 

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probably there's more waiting to
be discovered or tragically that

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will never be discovered. 
Yeah. 

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And as I was going through those
chapters I believe it was three 

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chapters. 
You have one on the Cairo knees.

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And then you have the 
fascinating situation with the 

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monks and the monastery from 
namaste in and then going on to 

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the Dead Sea Scrolls. 
Like, you could see like the 

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highs, like it's like a lot of 
things have to fold together. 

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I really, really suggest that 
the readers get the book and 

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they'll enjoy these chapters 
because you, you really get a 

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inside. 
Look at exactly how much when 

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down to get what we have in our 
possession today. 

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It is truly incredible. 
And if it's okay, I would just 

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jump in and add that a lot of 
the people who were involved in 

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gathering these ancient texts, 
especially in the late 18th and 

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19th centuries. 
These were Pious Christians, 

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mostly Protestant Christians who
were interested in these texts, 

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because for them, these texts 
had religious value in that they

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informed the world about The 
Life and Times of Jesus. 

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And so many of these texts even 
the Dead Sea Scrolls, which 

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were, which were discovered in 
the middle of 20th century were 

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initially analyzed through the 
lens of Early Christianity, but 

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from the Jewish perspective, 
many of these texts actually 

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testify to the piety and the 
continuity of Jewish tradition. 

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Yeah. 
And, and, and the third part of 

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the book, and hopefully, we'll 
talk a little about, in the 

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past, in the, in the podcast, 
when you go through all the 

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different discoveries of 
different texts and Testaments 

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and you see, like a lot of like 
me, Josh, and a lot of this type

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of stuff, you start to see how 
they kind of shape off of each 

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other. 
It's kind of interesting. 

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We'll get into the later on, in 
the podcast. 

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I wanted to ask you about What 
to me when I read it it was it 

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was it was truly incredible. 
Regarding the sheer volume of 

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times that the Jewish people 
were faced with adversaries 

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during the second temple period.
The second part of your book, 

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the Jews of Alexandria 
specifically, I wanted to ask 

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you about because the way you 
sketch the second double history

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leaves. 
One at a loss for words, as how 

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Israel was able to survive that 
period, let alone have the 

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temple stand for so long. 
One. 

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Motif that strongly plays out in
your presentation of its history

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is the unique standing of Jews 
as being citizens of their host 

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Empire while concurrently having
limited sovereignty over Judea, 

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it is demonstrated in your book.
That a lot of the hostilities 

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were caused by them animosity 
and suspicion of what was 

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perceived to be dual citizenship
and dual loyalties privileged 

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privileged to the Jews. 
If you can discuss this 

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recurring tension of identity 
which both defined in 

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Challenger, Jewish people in 
second temple period, I'd be 

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grateful. 
When did, but I I wanted people 

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to get there. 
When I wrote the question I 

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wanted, I wanted to be able to 
understand, you know, the the 

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backdrop to the to the question.
To properly answer your 

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question. 
I think there might have been a 

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dozen questions in there to 
properly answer the question. 

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You know it would take a book 
length answer so I'm going to 

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Instead try to give you 
something. 

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Yes and feel free to cut in. 
If there's something I say 

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that's interesting, you could 
just interrupt me and ask me to 

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focus on that. 
So, first of all, you mentioned 

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that Jews were citizens in the 
Hell in a world. 

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That's a very tricky subject, 
the question of Greek and Roman 

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citizens ship is, is it's a 
complicated one, and many Jews 

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enjoyed the Privileges of living
under their host Empires. 

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But not all of them had 
citizenship so I'll put that 

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aside and you're right to say 
that by the second century BCE 

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Jews live throughout the 
Hellenistic World. 

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They live in North Africa, they 
live to the north of the land of

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Israel. 
They live in the Greek Islands. 

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They live in Italy. 
Even going into Europe in the 

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Backwater, they live. 
Up north. 

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And, of course, there's a whole 
community of Jews to the east 

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along, the Euphrates and Tigris.
We don't have a good tracking of

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these Jews, but these are Jews, 
who presumably never left that 

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region following the Babylonian 
exile. 

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And then that kind of re-emerges
into prominence in the rabbinic 

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era, but the Jews who live, 
let's say, along What's called 

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the Levant along this 
Mediterranean Coastal lines. 

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It's true that they encounter 
extraordinary challenges and 

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I'll talk about that in a 
second. 

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We also have to keep in mind 
that there must have been some 

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good time, some opportunities 
for Upward mobility. 

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And we assume that because of 
the kind of shocking level of 

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optimism that we find in some of
the texts that are produced by 

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Jews, living outside the land of
Israel specially in Egypt. 

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These are Jews who unsync Lee 
believe in the future of their 

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Unity's and in the notion that 
maybe today, they're not 

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accepted, but down the road, one
day, they're will see and 

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appreciate all the many 
contributions that the Jewish 

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people make to their host 
Empires. 

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We also know that there were 
very powerful Jews in, in Egypt,

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especially in talimichi. 
We know at least from Josephus 

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and other sources that he seems 
to have been Pious or at least 

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observant of his ancestral laws 
and anias force son's hockey and

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hananya are advisors to Queen to
one of the Queens named 

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Cleopatra, we have other 
references to very influential 

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Jews, living in A Egypt under 
Greek and Roman rule. 

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Some of these Jews might have 
been observant, others were 

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probably totally assimilated, 
biological Alexandria, very 

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famous philosopher, who we have 
every reason to think observes 

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his ancestral laws, observe 
Shabbat and cash route and and 

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other practices. 
But he had a brother who was a 

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very important politician in 
Egypt that likely abandoned his 

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observance of Judaism. 
We have a letter written by 

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authorities in Jerusalem to the 
Jews of Egypt at the end of the 

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second century, BCE imploring 
them to observe a holiday that 

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will become known as Hanukkah. 
And this letter specifies, that 

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they are their addressing the 
Jews of Egypt, but they're 

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asking in particular named 
Aristotle's to read this letter 

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and our establishes identified, 
as the tutor of King Ptolemy the

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Tudor Who is Jewish and works in
the court of the king named our 

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established. 
So again, you know, we have 

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figures who are Jewish in these 
positions and I want to say a 

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little bit about why and Why 
Jews would have been ambitious? 

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Presumably to attain these 
positions. 

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I think we can fairly assume 
that Jews needed channels of 

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influence in this difficult. 
And often dangerous World, they 

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need channels of influence 
because they have to obtain 

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protections when there is no 
distinction between religious 

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life and public life, and there 
was no distinction between 

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religious life and public life 
and ancient world. 

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If you don't attend the Festival
of Dionysus, then you are a bad 

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Greek. 
If you don't attend the Festival

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of Jupiter, then you are a bad 
Roman. 

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So when Jews are staying home 
from public festivals, they are 

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the object of public resent and 
critique and accusations, what 

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you think you're better than us.
You take all the advantages of 

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living in our society, and then 
you don't participate. 

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You reject your ideals, you 
reject, our claims you reject, 

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our our practices and and our, 
you know, are ideals are values,

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Etc. 
So very early on In the 

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Hellenistic era Jews are finding
themselves to be the object of 

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resentment and accusations of 
misanthropy. 

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Misanthropia of course is a 
Greek word which means anti 

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people and I person. 
So the Jews need channels of 

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00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,500
influence to obtain certain 
protections and permission to 

227
00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:01,400
not attend these public 
festivals celebrating the God. 

228
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Now there's an ironing and the 
irony is the more influence you 

229
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:07,500
know exactly what I'm going to 
say. 

230
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:09,500
And it sounds very contemporary 
and very resonant. 

231
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:14,600
The more influence the Jews 
obtain or suspicion. 

232
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,200
Exactly. 
Yeah, exactly. 

233
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,700
The more they are critiqued, the
more they are resented, the more

234
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:27,100
they are marginalized or one 
might even say demonize by some 

235
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:32,400
is being outside or infiltrating
society and then using 

236
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:37,100
improperly their influence and 
then ironically, the more 

237
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:43,200
protection the Jews need So they
find themselves in a very 

238
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,400
challenging cycle where they 
need protection and then the 

239
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,500
more influence they get, the 
more they are accused of having 

240
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:53,600
undeserved power. 
I'm happy to stop there. 

241
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,200
I'm also happy to keep going. 
Keep going, keep going. 

242
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,200
This is okay. 
Keep going. 

243
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:05,800
Um, despite these difficulties 
the Jews take great pride in 

244
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,400
being members of their broader 
societies. 

245
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,900
And I'm not talking about 
assimilated Jews. 

246
00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:14,200
I'm not talking about Jews who 
are abandoning the observance of

247
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,200
their ancestral laws. 
I'm talking about Jews who 

248
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:23,100
probably observed what we would 
call common Judaism, these are 

249
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:27,300
Jews who kept Shabbat who kept 
Castro, who practiced me? 

250
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:30,700
La on their baby boys who 
gathered regularly in synagogues

251
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:33,300
to read the Torah and interpret 
the Torah. 

252
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:39,000
So these are practicing Jews. 
who took pride in living in 

253
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broader societies where they 
could contribute and so, The 

254
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,500
reason why I'm saying this is 
because there was an aspiration.

255
00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:48,700
I don't think it was actually a 
reality. 

256
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:52,900
I think it was an aspiration 
that Jews could successfully 

257
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:58,000
have some kind of dual loyalty 
and be accepted by their host 

258
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:03,100
Empire, and by their kin in 
Judea, this is the challenge of 

259
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:06,700
diaspora Judaism is, you know, 
triangulating. 

260
00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:09,099
These two relationships, the 
relationship with their host 

261
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:11,300
Empire and their relationship 
with their kid in the land of 

262
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,800
Israel. 
And the way that Jews outside 

263
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,099
the land of Israel Express, 
their hope that they could 

264
00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:20,800
achieve this to a loyalty, which
really is such a difficult. 

265
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,000
If not impossible, tight rope to
walk the way that they express 

266
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,400
this aspiration is by producing 
biblical interpretations, where 

267
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,700
they can look at past Heroes and
say, look, you see those people 

268
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:38,000
did it? 
and the four main figures, I 

269
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,700
think, That are really subject 
to admiration in the Hellenistic

270
00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:46,500
era and we find the mentioned 
over and over again, in biblical

271
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:50,100
interpretations by Jews outside 
of the land of Israel is 

272
00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:53,300
Abraham, Yosef Moshe and 
Danielle. 

273
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:59,400
These are four very important 
figures and Yosef, and Daniel in

274
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,500
particular, are heroes to the 
Jews who live outside the land 

275
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,700
of Israel because they look at 
these stories and they say, oh 

276
00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:08,700
look at these great examples. 
I don't know that they had a 

277
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,500
phrase that's equivalent to do a
loyalty but look at Yosef who 

278
00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:17,300
was so beloved and admired by 
Egyptian, so trusted by Paro. 

279
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:23,800
And yet never sways never veers 
from his Devotion to his 

280
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,600
ancestral law. 
And of course, at Danielle the 

281
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,000
same. 
So we have all this interesting 

282
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,700
literature biblical 
interpretations and novellas 

283
00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:36,200
about these figures. 
That essentially are making a 

284
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,700
claim about what Jews can. 
Do outside the land of Israel 

285
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:44,300
and how they are legitimate. 
So now, I think I will stop 

286
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:48,200
unless you want examples that I 
can keep going, you love 

287
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,400
examples, you love examples, 
okay? 

288
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,500
There is a fantastic. 
Writer named arpa news. 

289
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:05,100
We don't know so much about him,
except that he is cited by 

290
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:07,400
Church. 
Father eusebius. 

291
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,200
And you see these talks about 
Dr. Panasonic's biblical 

292
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,500
interpretations are topus, is 
likely a Jew, living in the 

293
00:19:15,508 --> 00:19:23,100
second century, BCE who 
describes Abraham and, and the 

294
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:27,800
abrahamic family as making 
extraordinary contributions. 

295
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,200
To broader Society. 
So and also I should say our 

296
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:39,900
Japanesse does the same thing 
with with Moshe So, for example,

297
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:46,000
our Japanesse argues or, or 
describes the way in which 

298
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,600
Abraham in Egypt be friends, the
Egyptian king and teaches him 

299
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,600
astrology. 
Now. 

300
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,200
It's really fascinating because 
other biblical interpreters of 

301
00:19:59,208 --> 00:20:01,700
the same time who think 
astrology is idolatrous. 

302
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:07,200
Say Abraham fought against 
astrology, that's what Philo 

303
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,800
says. 
So a lot of this is kind of a 

304
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,800
mere into the values of the 
writers if you like astrology, 

305
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,600
then I haven't invented 
astrology. 

306
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,200
If you think it's pumpkin, if 
you think it's a joke that I was

307
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:23,200
combating, it, If Abraham and 
again, these other figures are 

308
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:29,800
really mirrors through which 
through which Diaspora Jews can 

309
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,300
project the best of themselves. 
They become what we would call 

310
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:40,100
Exempla embodiments of every 
virtue, every positive character

311
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:45,800
trait. 
So, Moshe is the ideal Warrior 

312
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:51,100
for writers who admire physical 
prowess, a philosopher for the 

313
00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:56,200
philosophical writers. 
And so on our Japanesse is just 

314
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,000
one example of this in their so 
many others. 

315
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,700
The used, you know, they use the
characters from the Torah as 

316
00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:07,100
like a way to teach active 
lesson on. 

317
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:11,000
You know, people's people are 
familiar with Moshe so they they

318
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,100
explained kind of like their 
worldview through these 

319
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:15,500
characters. 
Yeah. 

320
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,400
Yeah. 
I'll just pull off a little line

321
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,300
from our Japanesse about Moshe 
again, it's excited and you see 

322
00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:25,400
it's, he says, Moshe Moses was 
the teacher of Orpheus as a 

323
00:21:25,408 --> 00:21:28,000
grown man. 
He bestowed many useful benefits

324
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,600
on mankind. 
He invented boats. 

325
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:35,100
And devices for stone 
construction, and the Egyptian 

326
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:39,100
arms and the implements for 
drawing water and for Warfare 

327
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:41,900
and philosophy. 
So, you know, you can imagine it

328
00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:45,300
upon a sitting there, you know, 
with his Papyrus, his stylist or

329
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:48,300
whatever. 
And he's looking around, he's 

330
00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:54,200
Seeing, you know, maybe he's, 
he's like on the coast of, you 

331
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,300
know, he's, he's in Alexandria. 
So he, he's seeing the island of

332
00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:00,100
pharaohs. 
The lighthouse Island. 

333
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:02,300
He's looking at the waters, and 
he's seeing these boats, and 

334
00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:05,800
he's Imagining the contributions
of his Jewish ancestors in the 

335
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:11,700
same place or nearby, you know, 
by the Nile, but then he just 

336
00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:14,700
kind of tosses it all in, you 
know, starting with the most 

337
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:16,700
specific, the boats and the 
devices. 

338
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:19,600
And then he's like, you know 
what, he just in all philosophy.

339
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,700
That's one of my favorite lines 
in our tops because you see, he 

340
00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:25,600
just getting increasingly 
ambitious as the sentence goes 

341
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,100
on. 
So fascinating to see how they 

342
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:32,000
how they how they viewed 
everything, how they how they 

343
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,000
how they approach and related 
with with the text that the 

344
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,100
torah's. 
So fascinating. 

345
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,200
And I I could see why you'd want
to do this, it's really to be 

346
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,200
able to go through this stuff 
all day and and to think about 

347
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,500
it and to write about it and, 
you know, it's it's fascinating 

348
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:54,700
stuff. 
It's just so fun and it's fun. 

349
00:22:54,700 --> 00:23:00,100
But it's also deeply important 
and I think that we make a 

350
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:02,500
mistake. 
When we dismiss this literature 

351
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,900
as heretical or irrelevant, 
there are actually some 

352
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:10,000
fascinating examples of second 
temple Traditions that are 

353
00:23:10,008 --> 00:23:13,900
preserved in text, like our 
Tapas that then show up again 

354
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:20,900
and drastic tradition, the 
famous image of baby Moshe on 

355
00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:24,700
paro's. 
Lap is one, that is mentioned, 

356
00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:27,400
it's a different version of it 
but it's one that is mentioned 

357
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,600
in Josie FIFA's. 
And I think that's really 

358
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,600
significant because the method, 
you know, if you want to be an 

359
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,500
obnoxious academic about it, 
then he Josh that talks about 

360
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:41,800
that tradition is And, and 
recorded and transmitted 

361
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,200
centuries. 
After Josephus, sat down and 

362
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,800
wrote his Antiquities of the 
Jews, which is in the 90 CE. 

363
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,800
And so, for for Josephus, to be 
describing baby. 

364
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:59,100
Moshe sitting on the lap of Paro
and being tested by The 

365
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:02,700
courtiers Who are threatened by 
him and then it shows up in 

366
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:06,900
shemale robot. 
Well, you know, the truth is she

367
00:24:06,900 --> 00:24:09,000
about Rob is early medieval, 
it's really late. 

368
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,200
So when I look at Josephus and I
say, wow, a very close version 

369
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:20,300
of the story was recorded by 
first century Jew my my face in 

370
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:23,800
the veracity and trustworthiness
of these Traditions are actually

371
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,100
deeply enforced. 
There's a continuity. 

372
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:34,300
You know, there is to be honest,
there are also some interesting 

373
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,400
variations and we should take 
seriously. 

374
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:42,700
But yes, there's a continuity. 
Yeah, that's so interesting that

375
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:44,000
you take it away. 
Yes. 

376
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,100
So, um, in your chapter on 
sectarianism you explain how sex

377
00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:52,600
were actually minority groups. 
As there was indeed, a majority 

378
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,200
common strand within the Jewish 
people, can you discuss what the

379
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,300
majority of Israel looked like 
how the minority sector played 

380
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:04,300
within the majority and the 
basic description of each of the

381
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:09,400
sex Again, this is a huge 
question and their libraries 

382
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,700
worth of books. both on 
sectarianism in the Hellenistic 

383
00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:20,100
World specifically and also in 
in terms of what I called 

384
00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:27,700
earlier, common Judaism so, I'll
start with sectarianism because 

385
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:31,900
I think that when people are 
asked about second temple 

386
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:35,900
Judaism very often, their minds 
go straight to Pharisees, 

387
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:40,100
Sadducees, a scenes. 
The Dead Sea Scrolls. 

388
00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:47,100
What we know many of us. 
Comes from collections of 

389
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:53,000
literature that represent a tiny
tiny percentage of Jews and 

390
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,800
Jewish thinking in the ancient 
world. 

391
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,900
So, when we talk about the Dead 
Sea Scrolls, we're not even 

392
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,500
talking about what, we're likely
a scenes. 

393
00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:04,400
We're talking about an extreme 
subset of the Asian community 

394
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,800
and maybe in a day, the number 
of people who lived on the 

395
00:26:08,808 --> 00:26:12,500
Northwestern corner of the Dead 
Sea at kumran where the Dead 

396
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:16,900
Sea, Scrolls were discovered. 
Maybe he was a 150, so we can't 

397
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:19,300
exactly know how many Jews were 
living in the second. 

398
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:21,800
And first centuries BCE and the 
first century CE. 

399
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,400
But we know it was a whole lot 
more than 150 Jews. 

400
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,000
It was probably over a million 
Jews. 

401
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:31,600
So we have to be very careful 
when we talk about sectarianism 

402
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,500
Josephus does give us the 
numbers. 

403
00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:38,600
Josephus says that there were 
6,000 Pharisees 4000. 

404
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,900
I think 4,000 scenes and 3,000 
Sadducees Josephus is known to 

405
00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:47,400
inflate his numbers. 
He's not walking around, taking 

406
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,700
a census, counting a scenes, and
Sadducees and Pharisees. 

407
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:54,000
These are his estimations, he 
doesn't know exactly. 

408
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,300
I would venture to Guess that 
maybe there were even fewer than

409
00:26:59,300 --> 00:27:04,100
that if you're estimating 600 to
800,000 Jews in the land of 

410
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:06,500
Israel. 
Even in Israel alone, you're 

411
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:08,000
talking about a very small 
percentage. 

412
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,500
Now they have a high profile so 
I don't want to Discount their 

413
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:13,900
influence. 
The Sadducees were known to be 

414
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:16,500
priests who had administrative 
authority over the temple. 

415
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:21,000
The Pharisees of course are the 
antecedent of the rabbinic 

416
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,300
community, not exactly the 
rabbis but certainly their 

417
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:28,500
predecessors. 
So these are teachers, these are

418
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:31,100
people who are in the public 
eye, the public religious. 

419
00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:35,900
I these are important people but
they're not representing the 

420
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:38,500
majority. 
So what does it mean to be a Jew

421
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:40,900
in the ancient world? 
How did you practice your 

422
00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:42,800
Judaism? 
How did you show others that you

423
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,100
were Jewish? 
And this is it's an especially 

424
00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:47,900
pressing question. 
When you want to understand 

425
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:51,300
Jewish life outside the land of 
Israel where we don't even know 

426
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:53,400
of any a scenes, or Sadducees 
and Pharisees. 

427
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,000
Those secretary groups are 
really specific to the land of 

428
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,100
Israel. 
Now, Philo of Alexandria, does 

429
00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:02,000
talk about some other groups. 
He talks about the therapeutic, 

430
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,000
a group of Jewish Scholars who 
go out to the Wilderness to 

431
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,100
study tour and philosophy. 
That's not exactly a sect. 

432
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:14,700
You might call that more a 
tightly knit community and we 

433
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:16,900
can talk about how to define a 
sect. 

434
00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:19,300
But these are not people who are
thinking about the end of days, 

435
00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:22,700
they're not rejecting other 
groups of Jews on the basis of, 

436
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:24,500
you know, fundamental, 
disagreements. 

437
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:28,500
So we really don't think that 
sectarianism was a diasporan 

438
00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:32,800
phenomenon to be a practice in 
Jew in the ancient world. 

439
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,400
You absolutely do. 
Not need to be in a sect. 

440
00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:40,800
What it meant. 
I think for most Jews was to 

441
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,400
practice the three main 
identifying markers of Jewish 

442
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,500
practice in the ancient world 
and that is Shabbat kashrut, 

443
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:50,400
Brit Milah. 
Now, on top of that, I always 

444
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,300
use this image of those are the 
recipe. 

445
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:56,300
Those are the ingredients in the
cake and the frosting like what 

446
00:28:56,300 --> 00:28:59,300
you see the thing that enhances 
it, that's so important that you

447
00:28:59,308 --> 00:29:02,900
can't do without it. 
The frosting is the Torah. 

448
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:07,000
I don't even know if this is a 
good metaphor, but metaphor that

449
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,000
I use the frosting is the Torah.
The interpretation is the 

450
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,800
sprinkles. 
I don't know, I don't know. 

451
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:18,400
But in any case, the most 
important thing is the regular 

452
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,400
gathering together in synagogues
and reading and interpreting the

453
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,700
Torah. 
There are Shoals in the second 

454
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:28,900
temple era. 
They are not we don't think 

455
00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:33,700
Places for normative prayer. 
And I, we can get into this 

456
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:36,400
question of, you know, the 
gemara brachos that talks about 

457
00:29:36,408 --> 00:29:41,700
Abraham inventing shacarri and 
you talked in so on, but in the 

458
00:29:41,708 --> 00:29:45,700
second temple era, most likely 
Shoals were places, were Jews 

459
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:50,000
gathered to read and interpret 
the tour there was Prior Up. 

460
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,900
But prayer was less normative. 
And this is a complicated 

461
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:55,700
question. 
There's certainly was Prior in 

462
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:59,400
qumran in the Dead Sea 
Community, but maybe they didn't

463
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,300
have an exactly like other 
observant shoes. 

464
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:06,800
But but The main thing that you 
would do in a show, is read the 

465
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,100
Torah and interpret it. 
So there were things that you 

466
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:12,300
could do anywhere, you didn't 
have to be in proximity to the 

467
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:13,900
bathtub mcdows. 
You didn't have to be in 

468
00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:17,200
proximity to Jerusalem or even 
live in the land of Israel. 

469
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,700
You didn't have to see the land 
of Israel for your entire life, 

470
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:24,600
to practice. 
As a Jew, you needed to, to have

471
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,700
some access to studying the 
Torah and people did that in 

472
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:32,700
synagogues, interesting. 
So, so the the temple itself was

473
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:37,200
already sort of, not as Central 
as it used to be. 

474
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,600
There's already kind of like a, 
like a new identity that can be,

475
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,200
that can be carved out. 
That's not. 

476
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,400
So Temple dependent in that out 
of me. 

477
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:53,000
Last Shabbat and Katrina and the
Gathering for the synagogue or 

478
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,600
reading the Torah and 
interpreting and that kind of. 

479
00:30:55,608 --> 00:30:59,800
So we're looking at like the 
beginning stages of the shift 

480
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,400
away from the temple Focus. it's
a really, really good question 

481
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:12,400
and I agree that I agree that 
we're shifting away in the sense

482
00:31:12,408 --> 00:31:16,000
that there is a reality on the 
ground and the reality is that 

483
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,600
the majority of Jews do not live
in proximity to the temple, but 

484
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,900
the temple retains its 
centrality in Jewish literature.

485
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:25,700
And again, I think that you 
could find later parallels with 

486
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:28,100
this and rabbinic texts and 
medieval Jewish texts. 

487
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:32,400
And so the temple in Jewish 
literature is really, really 

488
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,800
important. 
And it's more than just the 

489
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,800
literature. 
There are tens of thousands of 

490
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,900
Jews, if not more, who are 
making the pilgrimage. 

491
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,600
To Jerusalem on the holidays, of
course we know this. 

492
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,400
We've got so much evidence for 
this both in terms of the text. 

493
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,400
But also in terms of the 
archaeological evidence, we've 

494
00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,300
got a pedestrian Rose leading to
Jerusalem so we know that Jews 

495
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:02,500
were going to make the 
pilgrimage. 

496
00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:06,300
What so interesting to my mind 
is that they know how to get 

497
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:08,500
there. 
They have their you know, they 

498
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:10,800
don't have ways but they have 
their Maps, they know how to go 

499
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,900
and then they go back home. we 
don't have any evidence of a 

500
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:22,700
mass of a mass migration Of Jews
to the land of Israel, as far as

501
00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:25,900
I know. 
But Jerusalem is very important 

502
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:27,500
to them. 
The temple is very important to 

503
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:29,300
them. 
But it's different because they 

504
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:32,300
don't feel that they need to 
Worship in the temple in order 

505
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:35,300
to kind of actualize themselves 
as practicing choose. 

506
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:38,800
I understand it's a yes, I the 
way I freeze. 

507
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,900
It might have might have. 
Yeah, I didn't mean to take it 

508
00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:46,000
to that extreme, of course. 
Yes, the temple was still was 

509
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:53,100
still a huge part and I was just
trying to make note of like, How

510
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,400
would you feel as a Jew without 
the temple and kind of the way 

511
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,600
you answered it with with what 
they, what they were what they 

512
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,400
focused on? 
And I feel like today we're kind

513
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,200
of in the same boat know. 
I mean for the most part how do 

514
00:33:06,208 --> 00:33:09,000
you know that a person takes his
religious duties him? 

515
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,200
Seriously if we're not gonna get
into labels which I hate labels 

516
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,200
like you know Orthodox, I'm not 
into that. 

517
00:33:15,208 --> 00:33:18,800
But like you see a guy keeping 
kashrut, keeping Shabbat you 

518
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,200
understand the guy takes his 
real like you know that that 

519
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,700
speaks very much today as much 
as I think it did back then. 

520
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:29,600
I still like, you know, the 
choices of which we're we choose

521
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,500
to kind of like show our our 
Jewish identity good, do you my 

522
00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:38,200
on the right track Maybe 
Absolutely on the right track to

523
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,900
me, this is all very resonant. 
There's lots of conversation 

524
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:46,500
today about who has the right to
say things about the state of 

525
00:33:46,508 --> 00:33:49,700
Israel and what happens in 
Israel and the Jews in Israel 

526
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:54,000
and there's all kinds of 
controversies about what 

527
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,800
Authority Jews in the diaspora 
should have when it comes to 

528
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,000
Israel. 
Those same conversations were 

529
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,700
happening in the ancient world 
in both directions. 

530
00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:08,699
We have some really interesting 
texts, some letters that I 

531
00:34:08,707 --> 00:34:12,300
actually discuss in my more 
recent book that come from 

532
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:18,300
Jerusalem and are sent to very 
prominent Jews in Egypt, where 

533
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:21,300
there are essentially making the
point, that religious Authority 

534
00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:24,900
comes and always will come from 
the land of Israel. 

535
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:28,900
Doesn't matter how well you are.
Does it matter how Pious you are

536
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:30,900
doesn't matter how well 
regarded, you are. 

537
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:37,100
You're in Egypt, so Authority, 
simply Cannot come from there. 

538
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:42,800
Excellent, thank you for before 
we move on. 

539
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,400
To the next question, you did 
touch upon like one part that 

540
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,600
was interested in, which is that
there was a group, let's say of 

541
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,600
maybe like a small community of 
people who would go to the 

542
00:34:52,607 --> 00:34:54,400
farest and study philosophy, 
right? 

543
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,500
Or go to the Wilderness, what 
what makes it, what? 

544
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:01,700
Why do you not get considered as
a sect? 

545
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:04,700
Like, what does it that defines 
a group of the sect? 

546
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,800
It's a great question. 
The. 

547
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:18,800
Subject of how to define effect 
is not widely agreed upon. 

548
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,900
In other words, there are 
debates about how to understand 

549
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:24,900
a sect. 
I really appreciate and 

550
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:27,500
recommend album Gardens book on 
sectarianism. 

551
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:33,300
Which which takes this question 
head on now. 

552
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:35,500
And John Collins has written 
about it as well. 

553
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:43,800
I would say a very A very, very 
extreme definition of how to 

554
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,900
define sectarianism is to say, 
you are in a sect. 

555
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:54,100
When you believe that your 
community most fully and 

556
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:58,800
authentically embodies the true 
Israel, Now, the members of 

557
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,800
kumaran of the Dead Sea sect. 
Again, we're living this out in 

558
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,800
the most extreme way we know 
from their literature. 

559
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:12,400
That they believe that Outsiders
were not members of the polity 

560
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,600
of Israel. 
In other words, they wouldn't 

561
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,800
enjoy the same blessings. 
In the end time they were 

562
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,900
keeping the wrong calendar, the 
Quran Community kept, the solar 

563
00:36:23,908 --> 00:36:28,000
calendar, and so they are 
literally claiming that 

564
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,700
Outsiders are eating on, Yom 
Kippur, you know, if you think 

565
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:33,600
about how important a calendar 
was and the ancient world, if 

566
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,000
everyone is keeping a different 
calendar, that you're the only 

567
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,100
one who's properly observing Yom
Kippur So that's an extreme. 

568
00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:43,800
That's kind of the limit case of
sectarianism to say. 

569
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,500
We are the true Israel and all 
of you you're actually not, you 

570
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:51,000
are not embodying. 
You're not inheriting those 

571
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,300
covenantal promises we are. 
Now there are more nuanced 

572
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:58,000
levels. 
I suppose of sectarianism where 

573
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,200
you might say, well, we are 
fully and most properly living 

574
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:07,100
out the the task. 
That was given to us in the 

575
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,300
covenantal relationship. 
And so we are kind of at the 

576
00:37:09,308 --> 00:37:17,700
center of the policy of Israel, 
the therapeutic This, the stakes

577
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:20,100
are lower and the boundaries are
looser. 

578
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,300
I think that in terms of the 
rules of Entry, it was much more

579
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:30,600
relaxed. 
Again, we only know about the 

580
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:36,000
therapeutic from Philo, so have 
to be careful to you. 

581
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,100
When you only have one source, 
you have to be a little bit 

582
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:42,500
more. 
A little bit more gentle in your

583
00:37:42,508 --> 00:37:47,400
claims, but these are people who
just had a passion for learning 

584
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,500
for Torah study for philosophy. 
They were in community with each

585
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:53,900
other and Philo, has a lot of 
disdain for City Life. 

586
00:37:53,900 --> 00:37:56,700
He feels that it distracts and 
corrupts and a lot of 

587
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,800
intellectuals in the ancient 
world did have a disdained for 

588
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,200
City Life, so if you want to 
live a life of the Mind, there 

589
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,400
was an ideal to get out of the 
city to get away from those 

590
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,000
material distractions. 
And so, the notion that these 

591
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,300
Jews, who were probably 
financially comfortable and had 

592
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:15,600
the luxury to be able to do 
this, the idea that they went 

593
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,700
out into the Wilderness to study
Torah, this was considered to be

594
00:38:18,707 --> 00:38:21,900
very very admirable. 
Is it a sect? 

595
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:25,000
Are they making a claim that 
they and only they are the 

596
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,400
recipients of divine beneficence
and separates them from the rest

597
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,600
of world? 
Jewry I don't think so I want to

598
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,000
take it that far. yeah, what's 
interesting to me always is that

599
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,400
You hear for example, like, 
okay, based on your description 

600
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,400
right now and you can consider 
you could consider Christianity 

601
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,600
at least early on is a sect. 
But, but like, for example, the 

602
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,400
Samaritans are never thrown into
that category for some reason, 

603
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,100
you don't hear like, the, the 
scenes, the, you know, the 

604
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:57,700
Sagittarius and they're already 
considered out, you know, beyond

605
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:00,200
the pale. 
So I'm just curious to know why 

606
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,700
that distinction is made. 
Maybe there is no, maybe maybe 

607
00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:05,500
I'm just, you know, wrong about 
this. 

608
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:06,800
But I'm just curious to know 
why. 

609
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,600
That's really interesting. 
I don't know why the Samaritans 

610
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,000
would not be considered a sect. 
I would defer to someone who is 

611
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,800
really a scholar of the 
Samaritans. 

612
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,200
Maybe, there's an answer on that
question that I don't know. 

613
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,900
To me, it's more of like a 
religious brand. 

614
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:27,100
Yeah. 
That's a great question. 

615
00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:30,100
I'm going to have to defer it 
because I don't have the answer,

616
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:33,400
all right. 
All right, so Ben's take the 

617
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,200
next one. 
All right. 

618
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,800
So in your chapter, expanding 
the Bible, you give us a tour of

619
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,500
the fascinating documents we 
have found from that period, 

620
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:47,200
which expand the Bible. 
The Testaments being a great 

621
00:39:47,207 --> 00:39:49,100
example. 
Can you tell us about some of 

622
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:51,100
the most important Testaments 
and other documents? 

623
00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:54,400
What was the likely reason they 
were ridden and how these 

624
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,200
Testaments evolved into the time
of Hazel? 

625
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:58,900
This is my favorite part by the 
way. 

626
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:03,700
You can only say that after I 
answered because I might give 

627
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:05,300
you a really dry and boring 
answer. 

628
00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:07,900
I hope that I don't there's just
so much. 

629
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:13,300
They're so many texts that I 
want to tell you about but you 

630
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:16,000
specify the Testaments. 
And so I'll tell you about the 

631
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,800
Testaments. 
This is a genre of literature 

632
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,000
actually becomes very important 
and early Christian tradition, 

633
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,400
but it starts we think in Jewish
literary circles at the end of 

634
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,600
the second temple era, a 
testament is a document. 

635
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,400
We find them first written in 
Aramaic actually. 

636
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,200
And then mostly later in Greek, 
assessment is a text that 

637
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:44,800
recalls the wisdom imparted to 
one's children and grandchildren

638
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,800
on a deathbed. 
And so this is a very, very 

639
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:55,800
popular mode of writing and we 
find it in the context of 

640
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,700
yakov's 12 sons. 
So the very earliest Testaments 

641
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:06,100
that we find are found a kumran 
found at the dead sea caves and 

642
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:09,200
their scraps of The Testament of
naphtali. 

643
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,700
And I believe, as well, The 
Testament of Levy. 

644
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:14,700
I am pretty sure we have as well
in Aramaic. 

645
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:20,600
What ends up happening is that 
probably multiple writers added 

646
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,000
to these early texts that by the
first century CE, we have a 

647
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,000
collection that becomes known as
the Testaments of the 12 

648
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,600
Patriarchs. 
I know how Christian this 

649
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,000
sounds, I don't mean that 
offensively, but when we talk 

650
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,700
about Testaments, it's not a 
word in the Jewish lexicon. 

651
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:39,400
And so it does sound kind of far
in the Testaments of the 12 

652
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,500
Patriarchs. 
Um but that's why it's so 

653
00:41:42,508 --> 00:41:47,100
important to emphasize that we 
have these Aramaic documents and

654
00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:50,500
we don't have a full collection 
of the Testaments as well 

655
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:55,900
Patriarchs in Aramaic. 
But we do think that pretty 

656
00:41:55,900 --> 00:41:58,600
early on let's say by the end of
the first century, there's a 

657
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,600
collection of these speeches of 
the 12 sons of yaakov. 

658
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,700
One of these in their deathbeds.
We think that they are kind of 

659
00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:12,500
Completely composed and 
collected as as one unit by the 

660
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:16,600
first century by the end of the 
first century in Greek. 

661
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,500
In other words, these texts were
circulating and being 

662
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:22,100
transmitted and shared in our 
make. 

663
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:25,800
And at some point you start to 
translate the Greek or write new

664
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,100
ones in Greek. 
Unfortunately, what ends up 

665
00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:33,200
happening is that in the second 
and third, centuries, editors, 

666
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:38,000
who are Christian, are copying 
these documents Onto new 

667
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,900
manuscripts and their 
interpolating references to 

668
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:45,700
Jesus and the Trinity into their
editions. 

669
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:48,000
And so by the time you get to 
the Medieval Era, the 

670
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,100
manuscripts of the Testaments, I
don't want to say the word 

671
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:57,300
corrupted but they present as 
Christian techs, I'm not the 

672
00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:02,700
only historian who would say 
These texts were very likely 

673
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:06,700
originally written by Jews and 
it's not only that we have 

674
00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:09,900
Aramaic, scraps of them found at
qumran, but there are really 

675
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:14,000
interesting allusions to Jewish 
law that are not fully excised 

676
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,800
from the text. 
So for example, I believe it's 

677
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:21,800
in the Testament of Oh no. 
I think Shimon, I think she 

678
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,800
owned that talks about the 
morning laws of the Jews. 

679
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,600
M, o u r n. 
I n g the morning laws of the 

680
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,800
Jews that the people that his 
descendants. 

681
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,400
You know, I don't want to say 
this because I don't have it in 

682
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,000
front of me, I don't know who 
they are. 

683
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,400
Mourning, are they more morning?
Shimon or they mourning someone 

684
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,600
else but in any case there's a 
reference to those laws and what

685
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:49,800
laws we don't know because this 
text would have predated 

686
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,700
rabbinic documents about a loop.
So what are they talking about? 

687
00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:57,800
You know, we don't know. 
We've got little golden nuggets.

688
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,400
Little reference is to practices
that would have been transmitted

689
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:08,000
orally because we don't have 
legal codes at this early stage.

690
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,200
We don't have a lot of 
literature. 

691
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,500
We have a little bit, actually, 
again from Quran, but we don't 

692
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:20,100
have a lot. so, the Testaments 
Are very serious texts they have

693
00:44:20,107 --> 00:44:22,900
a lot of ethical content and 
they're catered towards the 

694
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:25,900
biblical story. 
So we find fascinating biblical 

695
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:29,900
interpretation within them. 
For example, in The Testament of

696
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:36,900
you who da, we have references 
to the story of Tamar and and in

697
00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:43,500
that Testament Chastity and and 
propriety is highlighted in The 

698
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:47,200
Testament of Yosef. 
We have other values that are 

699
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,000
highlighted that correlate with 
his life as it is told Embrace 

700
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,200
sheet. 
So these were written by very 

701
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,100
close readers of the text and 
and I want to be clear again. 

702
00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:04,500
I don't read these texts as 
heretical or as sloppy or Or or 

703
00:45:04,508 --> 00:45:07,400
as disrespectful. 
I think that this was the 

704
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,400
highest Level of homage and 
reverence. 

705
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,400
That you could pay in the 
ancient world. 

706
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,300
In other words, there's a 
playful element and there's a 

707
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:24,400
creative element in these texts 
but there's all Extraordinary 

708
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,600
reverends and and love for the 
biblical account. 

709
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,200
So I don't think that these That
these tests are in any way 

710
00:45:32,207 --> 00:45:36,600
trying to replace. 
Bracelet or the scriptures in 

711
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,900
general, nor are they presenting
themselves as authoritative as 

712
00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:44,400
scriptural. 
I think it's pretty clear that 

713
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,700
these texts are not that and so 
if you want to call it 

714
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:52,100
protimeter drastic, you can. 
But I think that they come from 

715
00:45:52,107 --> 00:45:56,500
a place of respect, So, yeah, 
totally see it as photography. 

716
00:45:56,500 --> 00:46:01,500
What I like to know is, you 
know, you mentioned that over 

717
00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:04,400
time there were, you know, kind 
of like a Christian. 

718
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,500
Attachments to these Testaments.
But is there a way we can? 

719
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:14,900
Let's say learn these things 
today in their original form and

720
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:17,600
how much of the original is 
actually intact. 

721
00:46:22,500 --> 00:46:26,400
In. 
English editions of the 

722
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,200
Testaments the 12 Patriarchs. 
You will really struggle to find

723
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:37,300
that kind of ortex that original
Jewish version. because the 

724
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:41,900
English editions are translated 
from manuscripts that were 

725
00:46:41,900 --> 00:46:49,300
either written in Greek or in as
an ethiopic language or other 

726
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:56,900
languages that in turn, derived 
from the Greek, So the the 

727
00:46:56,900 --> 00:46:59,600
process of discerning what is 
Jewish? 

728
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,400
What is a later? 
Interpolation is a really 

729
00:47:02,408 --> 00:47:04,400
fraught. 
I don't recommend it. 

730
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,900
I think that this can become 
very circular you know if you 

731
00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:08,900
decide oh a certain feature is 
Christian. 

732
00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:10,900
Then every time you find that 
feature you'll say it's 

733
00:47:10,900 --> 00:47:13,600
Christian and vice versa. 
Oh it's a law that must be 

734
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,500
Jewish. 
Oh it's ethical that must be 

735
00:47:15,508 --> 00:47:16,800
Christian. 
You know you can get very 

736
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,900
speculative, very fast. 
That is why the scrap. 

737
00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:26,000
From Quran are so important 
because they're early. 

738
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,400
Another way to enter into this 
question, is to look for 

739
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:36,600
citations of the Testaments. but
unfortunately, we have very few 

740
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:42,500
Because by the second century, 
like I said, it's entering into 

741
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:47,200
the Christian imagination and I 
think at some point rabbinic 

742
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,000
writers, say, you know what, you
can have those, you know, there 

743
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,000
is this kind of what we call The
Parting of the ways where there 

744
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,800
are certain texts that two of 
Jewish origin. 

745
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,600
But because they become so 
Central to Christian Community, 

746
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,100
the rabbi sort of let them go. 
Interesting. 

747
00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:06,100
There was one of the second 
temple literature books. 

748
00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:09,700
He talked about the featured 
avraham and how he kept all the 

749
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:11,000
Torah. 
What was the name of that one? 

750
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,600
I don't remember, offhand. 
Are you talking about the 

751
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,600
Testament of Abraham? 
Which estimate of Abraham? 

752
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,600
That's okay. 
Favorite text. 

753
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,700
My favorite. 
I could talk about it all day. 

754
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:22,700
I believe that's very exactly. 
I've heard you talk about it. 

755
00:48:22,707 --> 00:48:26,400
I think it was either on 
Orthodox conundrum or 1840, like

756
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,800
it was probably a few years ago 
but it was so entertaining. 

757
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,400
So I would love to hear about 
it. 

758
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,900
If you don't mind, I'm always 
worried about repeating myself 

759
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:36,600
on podcast because I don't want 
to bore people and I don't want 

760
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,000
to say the same thing so I'm 
always thinking in advance of a 

761
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,400
podcast, okay? 
What can I say that? 

762
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,700
I've never said before, this is 
something that bothers me and so

763
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,000
I appreciate that. 
You're inviting me to be 

764
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,200
repetitive. 
That's very gracious of you and 

765
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,900
I guess I don't know if I should
apologize to listeners. 

766
00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:56,500
If I'm gonna pour it. 
This is just so Fun. 

767
00:48:56,500 --> 00:49:05,400
I should have, I should Have 
gotten the text next to me, is 

768
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,400
it okay, can I take 10 seconds 
to grab? 

769
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,000
Yeah. 
Okay. 

770
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:09,900
Hold on a second. 
Thanks. 

771
00:49:15,100 --> 00:49:18,100
I love how she's so into it. 
Right. 

772
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,100
Okay, I got it now. 
All right. 

773
00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:33,100
All right. 
So the there were Jews, there 

774
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:35,700
were Jewish writers and ancient 
world who had really great 

775
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:39,300
senses of humor. 
And the writer of The Testament 

776
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:43,900
of Abraham was one of them. 
This is a writer who knows very 

777
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:48,200
intimately the genre of the 
Testaments and wants to subvert.

778
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,200
The genre, the genre is very 
serious. 

779
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,300
Yeah, you mentioned that. 
So, it's very serious and this 

780
00:49:52,300 --> 00:49:55,300
one, I remember this now is it 
was, it's a comedy. 

781
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:57,500
So it's very interesting. 
Yeah. 

782
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:02,700
It's a comedy because everything
that you expect to happen 

783
00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:07,700
doesn't happen, and so that kind
of element of surprise makes it 

784
00:50:07,700 --> 00:50:14,600
shocking and funny, we know from
the biblical tradition that 

785
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,300
Abraham is a trusting servant of
God. 

786
00:50:18,300 --> 00:50:23,500
Yes, it's true. 
He argues with God in Bracey in 

787
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:28,000
tet and in Genesis 19 with the 
story of Sodom but he's doing so

788
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,100
out of Integrity out of a love 
for human, kind of a sincerity, 

789
00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:35,800
a sense of Brotherhood. 
Forgiveness, Abraham is pious. 

790
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:37,100
I think we could all agree on 
that. 

791
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:39,700
Abraham is a Pious servant of 
God. 

792
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:41,800
There's a reason why he's chosen
by God. 

793
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:48,300
And of course, the paradigmatic 
example, is embracing a bet with

794
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:56,200
the akeda now, Whoever wrote 
this book wanted to surprise and

795
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,600
shock his readers by depicting 
Abraham as just an utter doofus.

796
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,100
And so what he does is he uses 
the Testament genre to say, I'm 

797
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:10,100
going to tell you a story where 
everything goes wrong and you're

798
00:51:10,100 --> 00:51:14,000
going to think you're getting a 
story of Abraham's Testament. 

799
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,700
In other words, Abraham was 
about to die and so the reader 

800
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:22,500
is going to expect solum. 
Ethical wisdom. 

801
00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:27,300
The greatest insights to be 
imparted inspirational, right? 

802
00:51:27,300 --> 00:51:29,600
Because it's Abraham, he's the 
most important of all the 

803
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,600
Patriarchs of all the heroes in 
the Bible. 

804
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,300
And instead we have a story 
where Abraham is about to die. 

805
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:42,100
And he refuses to. 
So the truth, I haven't looked 

806
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:45,300
at this in a long time, but the 
story opens up with God. 

807
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:51,100
Sending me hael the Ark. 
Angel to Earth to gently bring 

808
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:56,700
Abraham into the heavens. 
God loves Abraham so much. 

809
00:51:56,700 --> 00:51:59,900
He wants him to have a gentle 
death, a death may be that is 

810
00:51:59,900 --> 00:52:04,100
similar to the death of Aaron or
Yahoo but a gentle death. 

811
00:52:04,100 --> 00:52:09,400
And so how the Archangel Michael
goes to Abraham and says all 

812
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,400
right Abraham your time is calm.
I'm here to take you into the 

813
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,300
world to come to take you into 
this. 

814
00:52:15,300 --> 00:52:19,500
You know this new this this new 
existence you're going to die. 

815
00:52:19,500 --> 00:52:25,600
And what we have afterwards is a
series of Comedies in which 

816
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:34,000
Abraham Maneuvers out of 
Michels, way to evade death and 

817
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,800
so Mikhail says, you know, your 
time has come and and, and 

818
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,600
Abraham says, that's great, you 
know, I'll just I'll be right 

819
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,800
back and kind of like slips out 
the back of his tent. 

820
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:49,000
This happening Michelle keeps 
trying to get Abrams. 

821
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,300
Come with him. 
Abraham is like pretending to be

822
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:55,400
on board but absolutely will not
go near him mihail gets so 

823
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,200
desperate. 
And frustrated, he goes back to 

824
00:52:58,207 --> 00:53:00,000
Heaven. 
He's like God I just I can't 

825
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,900
like he's such a pain in the you
know, I can't do it and so God 

826
00:53:03,900 --> 00:53:06,800
is like all right, you know what
you're you're you're doing your 

827
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,300
best but clearly, you're not to 
the task, I'm gonna send the 

828
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:13,200
angel of death and the book ends
with the angel of deaths, 

829
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,500
tricking avraham into touching 
him and I'm dies. 

830
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:23,000
But before that happens. 
Abraham gives me hell a series 

831
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,200
of false promises. 
If you do X, I'll go with you 

832
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,000
and then you called us and the 
arms like actually and I'm going

833
00:53:30,008 --> 00:53:33,700
to and so one of the things that
I've ever said is you know I'll 

834
00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:38,200
go with you all I'll go into 
heaven but you need to first 

835
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,000
take me on a chariot ride over 
all of human kind because I want

836
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,100
to see what's going on in the 
world. 

837
00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:46,300
And so they go on this Chariot 
and they see all these terrible 

838
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:48,400
things. 
This is the climax of the book 

839
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,900
is, is before we call, it gives 
up an opera and goes back. 

840
00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:53,200
And says he got us on the angel 
of death. 

841
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:59,100
Avram is still kind of leading 
Michelle along and saying like 

842
00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:01,400
I'm with you just here's another
thing I do. 

843
00:54:01,408 --> 00:54:02,200
Here's another thing you got to 
do. 

844
00:54:02,207 --> 00:54:08,100
So at one point From asks, for 
this Chariot over the heavens, 

845
00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:11,900
they go in the Chariot and they 
Glide over the Earth and they're

846
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:13,800
observing human kind. 
And what do they see? 

847
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:18,100
They see sin after sin after 
sin, you're looking down. 

848
00:54:18,100 --> 00:54:22,000
And, you know, in one place a 
man is committing adultery and 

849
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,000
another place someone is 
stealing and another place. 

850
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:29,100
Someone is murdering. 
And every time around looks 

851
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:34,200
below and sees more debauchery 
and and criminal activity, 

852
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,800
everyone says, you gotta kill 
that person, you sinning, you 

853
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,900
got to do something. 
I mean, he was like wait a 

854
00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:43,600
second, like I thought you were 
Opera home, you know, the 

855
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,800
highest generous and I was like,
no, stop it with that. 

856
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,500
Like, no, you gotta kill this 
guy and he was like, oh no. 

857
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:53,700
So Mikhail because he has these 
special Angelic. 

858
00:54:53,700 --> 00:55:00,000
Abilities is like, throwing, you
know, is like zapping these 

859
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:06,200
Sinners below and After a while 
you know avram is like 

860
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,100
instructing Miata to kill these 
Sinners after a while. 

861
00:55:10,107 --> 00:55:14,100
God intervenes basically a 
buckle voice comes out from him 

862
00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:16,700
and says all right stop the 
Chariot ride. 

863
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:20,600
This is getting out of control. 
If you let avraham keep going 

864
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,700
like this, he's going to destroy
all of human kind and because I 

865
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:26,500
was like, I thought you never 
say that has been terrible for 

866
00:55:26,500 --> 00:55:29,300
me and so that's how the Chariot
ride ends. 

867
00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:32,900
I mean, just goes on and on with
these various Misadventures 

868
00:55:32,900 --> 00:55:38,100
avraham leading, you know, along
through this kind of just 

869
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:45,900
endlessly frustrating Epic 
story. 

870
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:49,800
So, The Testament of April. 
I'm like, why in the world? 

871
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:57,600
This is this book about first of
all, well, I'm curious to know 

872
00:55:57,607 --> 00:56:02,300
what you think but Yeah. 
I mean I just yeah go ahead. 

873
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:08,100
Yeah I just it seems like almost
like a Torah fanfiction that was

874
00:56:08,107 --> 00:56:10,400
written at the time because 
there's just having good time 

875
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,400
with it you know right. 
So fanfiction for sure that's a 

876
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:18,000
phrase that I love look. 
This is not Um, this is not. 

877
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:22,600
Authoritative this is not 
sacred. 

878
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:27,100
I don't think I don't think it 
was read as sacred texts or not 

879
00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:30,300
even close to canonical. 
I don't think that this was a 

880
00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:34,300
text that was read with. 
Reverence there is a kind of a 

881
00:56:34,300 --> 00:56:37,700
teasing this Of. 
Oh you think our home was so 

882
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:40,800
perfect? 
You think that the you know, 

883
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:47,800
these biblical Heroes were You 
know, Flawless, let me tell you.

884
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:57,900
What you know what would have 
been if if Abraham was really 

885
00:56:57,900 --> 00:57:03,000
you know, was really tested. 
So, I think that this is a story

886
00:57:03,008 --> 00:57:07,800
for entertainment. 
But it plays with pietistic 

887
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:12,900
themes and throughout the work, 
you can see words and phrases 

888
00:57:12,900 --> 00:57:16,600
and sometimes full verses being 
lifted off from the tenac. 

889
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,600
In other words, whoever wrote 
this was deeply intimate with, 

890
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:25,600
with the Torah. 
And you can like, literally go 

891
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:32,600
through line by line and see 
where there are quotations. 

892
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:39,100
Illusions references. 
Not just to safer Bracey but to 

893
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:44,500
kimote to heskel because there's
a kind of angelic Chariot scene.

894
00:57:46,500 --> 00:57:49,600
To other parts of Tanakh. 
So here's someone who's like 

895
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:54,400
probably going to show, you 
know, probably getting some kind

896
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:59,500
of formal Jewish Education knows
how to practice their their 

897
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:02,400
traditions and knows their 
scriptural stories. 

898
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:07,900
And yet at the same time, 
produces a text that is, you 

899
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:13,200
know, totally a reference He's 
voicing his his inner doubts. 

900
00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:19,800
There is a. 
Serious question here. 

901
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:29,600
You want to say more? 
He's what's the things that I 

902
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,900
mean, like you said he's he's 
very much connected with the 

903
00:58:32,908 --> 00:58:37,500
text so he's not only familiar 
with it but deeply entrenched in

904
00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:43,400
it and we can see that by the 
amount of verses and and themes 

905
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,000
that he that he's that he's 
putting in playing with. 

906
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:54,100
But from what you were saying, 
it seems like he he has a hard 

907
00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:57,800
time. 
He has a hard time with with 

908
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,200
certain theological aspects of 
piety. 

909
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:06,500
And like, the feeling I was 
getting, was he was, he was kind

910
00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:12,000
of in a manner of Comedy, but, 
but in a sort of like, you know,

911
00:59:12,008 --> 00:59:18,000
you know, expressing his, his 
inner perplexities complexities 

912
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:19,500
or however, you'd want to call 
it. 

913
00:59:19,500 --> 00:59:22,300
So I think that's true. 
Yes, I think that the book is 

914
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:25,500
struggling with the Odyssey. 
This is the question of why do 

915
00:59:25,500 --> 00:59:28,900
good people suffer and why do 
good people die? 

916
00:59:28,900 --> 00:59:32,700
Abraham doesn't accept. 
Okay, that's that's the point. 

917
00:59:32,707 --> 00:59:36,700
And so this is specific to the 
question of what a good things 

918
00:59:36,700 --> 00:59:38,900
happen to bad people, why things
up the good people. 

919
00:59:38,900 --> 00:59:43,600
I think Abraham is a very 
powerful moral voice here. 

920
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,800
He's protesting God and he 
saying, look, these people are 

921
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,500
sinning, they need to be 
punished. 

922
00:59:49,500 --> 00:59:53,100
You can't let bad people get 
away with things and, hey, I'm a

923
00:59:53,100 --> 00:59:55,400
good person. 
I've listened to you all my life

924
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,900
now. 
Chasing me across the Earth, 

925
00:59:57,900 --> 01:00:02,600
trying to get me to die, you're 
ignoring the debauchery, you're 

926
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,600
ignoring the thief, you're 
ignoring all these people and 

927
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,600
you're chasing me he's 
protesting against what he seems

928
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,600
to be he seen. 
He feels is the Moreland Justice

929
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:18,500
and he's kind of like a job and 
in my mind this is this is an 

930
01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:21,200
evil kind of story but it's 
funny right. 

931
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,700
There isn't an answer. 
I think that the questions here 

932
01:00:23,700 --> 01:00:26,700
are deeply, serious questions 
avram. 

933
01:00:26,700 --> 01:00:33,100
Expresses his his fealty, his 
loyalty to his ancestral God but

934
01:00:33,100 --> 01:00:35,200
he doesn't accept reality on the
ground. 

935
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,400
And I think the message is that 
if you are Pious, if you care 

936
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,400
about this, right? 
If, if you are loyal to God, if 

937
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,600
you are committing here as a 
social traditions, Protest. 

938
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:48,800
It's these are questions that 
the writer doesn't have the 

939
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,800
answer to, and I think that he's
projecting that. 

940
01:00:52,700 --> 01:00:57,300
That difficulty on to avraham 
who is asking these these very 

941
01:00:57,300 --> 01:01:00,000
same questions. 
We are living in a world where 

942
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,300
good people do seem to suffer 
and bad. 

943
01:01:03,300 --> 01:01:07,600
People do seem to go unharmed 
and Aaron doesn't like it and he

944
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,300
wants it to change and God says,
Ah, but what you don't 

945
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:14,400
understand is that if I ruled 
with Justice, the world would be

946
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:20,300
destroyed and he comes to his 
own solution via the story. 

947
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:23,800
He comes to his own resolution 
or one that he could live with 

948
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,000
at least and in the end avraham 
dies, right? 

949
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,900
In the end. 
He's not right in the end. 

950
01:01:29,900 --> 01:01:31,800
God doesn't say, you know what? 
That's a really good point. 

951
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,000
Here's another 40 years. 
Now, he dies. 

952
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:39,800
From doesn't win the argument. 
So what the author is doing is 

953
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,100
asking really serious questions,
but honestly who in the first 

954
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:47,700
century is reading, EOS. 
I don't know, I don't know that 

955
01:01:47,700 --> 01:01:51,700
your average even observant Jew 
in the ancient world, it's also 

956
01:01:51,700 --> 01:01:53,100
a very difficult book in 
general. 

957
01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:55,900
The language is, is very very 
difficult. 

958
01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:59,200
If you're not an educated Jew 
that knows like you know, high 

959
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,900
level Biblical Hebrew, you're 
not, you can't learn eov, that's

960
01:02:02,900 --> 01:02:05,500
exactly right. 
And the level of subversion that

961
01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:09,500
the authors is administering, 
here is so it's so interesting 

962
01:02:09,500 --> 01:02:13,600
because he's taking the one 
character that is known for 

963
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:15,700
arguing with God for the 
opposite. 

964
01:02:15,700 --> 01:02:19,900
Right saving lives. 
It's very smart, right? 

965
01:02:19,900 --> 01:02:26,200
Not he said, but but Justice, 
the voice for, you know, a 

966
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:30,000
desire for justice. 
What's really interesting is 

967
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,400
that? 
In the third or fourth century 

968
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:37,900
Christians stopped reading this 
for entertainment and humor, and

969
01:02:37,900 --> 01:02:41,000
they produced a new version of 
it, that was much more serious. 

970
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:46,600
And so later, as we moved closer
to the Medieval Era, there's a 

971
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,700
new version of The Testament of 
Abraham, that's totally serious 

972
01:02:49,700 --> 01:02:52,300
and practicing and essentially 
was red and Christian 

973
01:02:52,300 --> 01:02:55,600
communities as another 
Testament. 

974
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,300
So it was stripped over the 
humor and then it became the 

975
01:02:59,300 --> 01:03:04,000
story that I was actually very, 
very serious and doesn't have 

976
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,900
the kind of mocking tones and 
and doesn't depict michela's 

977
01:03:07,900 --> 01:03:13,600
bumbling and and clueless. 
So, at some point it became a 

978
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,100
serious book and Christian 
tradition. 

979
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:18,300
Well, what they got? 
They got something right. 

980
01:03:18,300 --> 01:03:22,600
You got to leave the comedy to 
the Jews, you know, the one, 

981
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,000
when I, um, I'm kicking myself 
for not realizing the specific 

982
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,800
correlation to, to human 
suffering and the problem of 

983
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,000
human suffering. 
Like, it's so obvious, right? 

984
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,500
When you said I'm like, oh my 
God, yes, it's exactly what he's

985
01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:36,100
doing. 
But as you were explaining the 

986
01:03:36,100 --> 01:03:41,100
whole thing, I just I went back 
to her by sacs Roberts. 

987
01:03:41,100 --> 01:03:46,800
I think was like he on the topic
of human suffering and what a 

988
01:03:46,808 --> 01:03:48,200
good people suffer and why do 
you know? 

989
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:53,200
I feel like he had the most 
refined response, you get a lot 

990
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,800
of answers but then when it 
comes to our bestie, Give you an

991
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:00,700
answer, he gives you a, he gives
you a channel from which to 

992
01:04:00,700 --> 01:04:03,000
consider something. 
If you know what I mean. 

993
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,600
You know what I mean? 
He doesn't he doesn't just hear.

994
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,600
Here's an answer and gives like 
some technical reason or way to 

995
01:04:08,607 --> 01:04:12,100
make it all work. 
He kind of just he opens up a 

996
01:04:12,100 --> 01:04:15,400
discussion and you mentioned 
protest and that's exactly the 

997
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,700
whole point, right? 
Like sex that we said that the 

998
01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:22,300
whole like, you know, we have to
protest The the idea that 

999
01:04:22,300 --> 01:04:25,600
people, the good people suffer, 
we need to protest that as human

1000
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,400
beings. 
We shouldn't be satisfied with 

1001
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,700
any theological technical answer
that we can give. 

1002
01:04:30,700 --> 01:04:33,700
And then like, as you were 
saying this, I was thinking that

1003
01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:35,700
was like, that's exactly what 
this, what he was doing. 

1004
01:04:35,700 --> 01:04:41,800
He was he was screaming his, he 
was protesting this. 

1005
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:46,400
This this this some basic 
question that was probably 

1006
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,900
consuming him and I just found 
it to be incredible, right, 

1007
01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:52,100
right. 
And what's interesting? 

1008
01:04:52,100 --> 01:04:55,300
I agree with all of that and, 
you know, as much as the writer,

1009
01:04:55,300 --> 01:05:01,900
I think, really treats the Torah
and torch tradition with. 

1010
01:05:01,900 --> 01:05:05,500
I think a kind of respect, I 
don't think he respects the 

1011
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:07,100
Testament. 
Genre, I don't think that he 

1012
01:05:07,100 --> 01:05:10,700
liked the testes. 
If I had to guess I think that 

1013
01:05:10,700 --> 01:05:13,900
he probably rent speeches very 
serious speeches and The 

1014
01:05:13,900 --> 01:05:16,300
Testament of Ruin and The 
Testament of, you know, whatever

1015
01:05:16,300 --> 01:05:21,200
lady and he probably said, you 
know, these are So confident 

1016
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,400
these documents about how to 
live your life and, you know, 

1017
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:26,800
you will enjoy Divine blessings 
and protection. 

1018
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,300
If you do X, Y and Z, and he 
looked around and he said, no, 

1019
01:05:29,300 --> 01:05:30,500
that's just doesn't resonate 
with me. 

1020
01:05:30,500 --> 01:05:34,900
But he's like, polymer, sizing 
the Testaments with a testament.

1021
01:05:34,900 --> 01:05:38,900
Yeah, exactly. 
But something else and, and you 

1022
01:05:38,900 --> 01:05:40,600
know what? 
Maybe even Abraham would agree 

1023
01:05:40,607 --> 01:05:43,000
with me right. 
There are good people in the 

1024
01:05:43,008 --> 01:05:45,200
world who suffer even over. 
How we saw that, right? 

1025
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:49,100
Arm saw that we know that from 
the Torah um and we don't have 

1026
01:05:49,100 --> 01:05:51,500
to accept it, right? 
We could be the moral Voice Even

1027
01:05:51,500 --> 01:05:54,800
if we know the answers going to 
be you just don't get it. 

1028
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,100
You're a mere mortal. 
You know, even if the answer is 

1029
01:05:58,100 --> 01:06:02,100
going to be, you could use a 
little humility but still we can

1030
01:06:02,100 --> 01:06:06,600
ask the question. 
Yep, I think that I think the 

1031
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:10,000
interesting connection to e of 
also is that in the tradition, 

1032
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:14,000
there's also this idea that 
avraham is the author of severe.

1033
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,800
Of oh yes, I didn't think about 
that. 

1034
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:21,400
And and either it's about that 
he wrote it or there's or or 

1035
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:23,800
there's something about his life
that there's certain values that

1036
01:06:23,808 --> 01:06:26,800
are connected to avraham. 
So I think your textual links 

1037
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,400
but the textual links because 
intro textural links. 

1038
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:34,100
So I I think that that's 
probably why the author chose to

1039
01:06:34,100 --> 01:06:36,400
use the Odyssey as his Focus 
here. 

1040
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,000
It's interesting. 
Very fascinating, that is really

1041
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:43,600
interesting, pure speculation 
obviously, very cool, very cool.

1042
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:49,000
I really that was so enjoyable. 
So before we wrap up, we'd love 

1043
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:53,000
for our listeners to get a taste
of your latest work letters from

1044
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,200
home. 
Could you tell us briefly what 

1045
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,900
the book is about? 
What inspired it and what kind 

1046
01:06:58,900 --> 01:07:03,500
of conversation you hope it'll 
Spark Ah, thank you for asking 

1047
01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:07,300
about letters from home. 
It was published in summer 2024 

1048
01:07:07,300 --> 01:07:10,600
and the the book, essentially 
addresses. 

1049
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:14,400
The question of, what was the 
Israel diaspora relationship 

1050
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,200
like in the ancient world? 
How did Jews within? 

1051
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,100
And without the land of Israel, 
think about each other. 

1052
01:07:19,100 --> 01:07:23,000
And the core argument of the 
book is that I asked for it is a

1053
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,700
category that is invented by 
Jews in the land of Israel. 

1054
01:07:25,700 --> 01:07:28,600
The word diaspora is very very 
rare. 

1055
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:32,900
We only find it 15 times in all 
of surviving second temple 

1056
01:07:32,900 --> 01:07:36,900
literature and it's seems to me 
that most or all of those times 

1057
01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:40,900
derive from the land of Israel 
or were written by people with 

1058
01:07:40,900 --> 01:07:42,400
close ties to the land of 
Israel. 

1059
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,900
The notion that there's a 
meaningful category that 

1060
01:07:46,900 --> 01:07:50,800
designates all of Jewish life 
outside the land of Israel and 

1061
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,300
that, that category has a 
particular theological. 

1062
01:07:53,300 --> 01:07:58,600
Meaning that is negative, is a 
Judean idea Jews in the actual 

1063
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,400
diaspora. 
And I say, I asked for their, 

1064
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:03,100
with quotation marks. 
Do not. 

1065
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,400
Use the word or think with the 
category. 

1066
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,200
And in fact, make the argument 
that Jewish life outside, the 

1067
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:19,200
land of Israel is is Is making a
contribution to human kind, that

1068
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,700
Jews in the land cannot make by 
bringing knowledge of the 

1069
01:08:22,700 --> 01:08:24,800
universal God to the foreign 
Nations. 

1070
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,300
So, part of the, what the book 
does is it traces, the 

1071
01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:32,399
development of the word diaspora
links it to Judean way of 

1072
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:35,700
thinking, and says, well, 
actually, you know, we take this

1073
01:08:35,700 --> 01:08:40,600
word to be kind of self-evident 
of a particular reality, but the

1074
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:44,399
category of diaspora was 
contested from the time that it 

1075
01:08:44,407 --> 01:08:48,500
was invented. 
That is fascinating. 

1076
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:55,200
And we hope to we hope to do a 
separate podcast on that book in

1077
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,899
a future time. 
And we just wanted to first of 

1078
01:08:58,899 --> 01:09:03,200
all singer Praises. 
We think that you are such an 

1079
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,800
important voice in the Jewish 
world. 

1080
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:09,100
Because there's not many women, 
especially who do what you do. 

1081
01:09:09,100 --> 01:09:14,899
And it's takes a lot of Courage.
It's all so, something like I 

1082
01:09:14,899 --> 01:09:17,800
would hope for my own daughter's
to, you know, pursue such a 

1083
01:09:17,808 --> 01:09:21,700
career because, of course, it's 
not, it's not so simple, you 

1084
01:09:21,700 --> 01:09:24,500
know, being an orthodox Jew and 
getting involved in this stuff. 

1085
01:09:24,500 --> 01:09:28,800
So we really appreciate it. 
I think we think you're awesome 

1086
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:33,700
and we hope that we keep getting
more and more great content from

1087
01:09:33,700 --> 01:09:36,700
you more great books and wishing
you. 

1088
01:09:36,700 --> 01:09:39,300
The best. 
That is so gracious. 

1089
01:09:39,300 --> 01:09:41,500
Thank you very much for this 
kind words and thank you for 

1090
01:09:41,500 --> 01:09:44,600
having me on. 
It, thank you so much. 

1091
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,500
Keep up the good work. 
Thank you. 

1092
01:09:46,508 --> 01:09:48,200
You too you too. 
Take Care.