1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,520 Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,200 Torah related topics with our esteemed guests. 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,560 By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,000 addressed elsewhere, we aim to shed light on important issues 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,600 and inspire a return to the fundamentals. 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:33,160 Enjoy the show. Thank you, Rabbi Levy, for 8 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:35,080 joining the Judaism Demystified podcast. 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:36,920 Once again, it's a pleasure having you on. 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,280 We had a lot of great feedback from the first time you're on, 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,080 so thank you. Thank you for having me again. 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,920 You guys are amazing. Your reach is fantastic and I 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,520 love listening to your podcast. You guys are doing great. 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,440 Thank you so much. So I want to we're obviously 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,520 having you on here to discuss your latest book. 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,920 It is called Jewish Mysticism, Essays on Maimonides, The Guide 17 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:03,000 of the Perplexed. What inspired you to follow up 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,240 your book, The Mysticism of Andalusia with this new volume? 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,200 And was there a particular intellectual or historical 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,600 thread you felt compelled to continue exploring? 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,280 Well, thank you. That's a very good question. 22 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:21,320 The truth of the matter is this last book is the third in a 23 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:24,320 trilogy. This was part of the plan when I 24 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:29,360 originally presented my concept to my publishers and friends. 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,000 It was going to be a 1500 page book and everybody said no one's 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,200 going to read a 1500 page book and no one is going to purchase 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,720 a 1500 page book which was going to be like 3000 footnotes. 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,720 And so the concept five years ago was to break it up into 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,240 three parts. And so the first book, The 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,920 Mysticism of Andalusia, which we talked about at the time, was 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:04,240 really an introduction to my worldview and my understanding 32 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,560 and reading of Rambam. And what I did there was really 33 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:18,720 contrast and compare Andalusia mysticism, Andalusian worldview, 34 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:25,680 Andalusian religious concept and and and and and and practice to 35 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,880 Northern Spanish and European ideas. 36 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,120 And the contrast was just so stark. 37 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,640 And you know, really, one might say two different religions 38 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:42,040 almost, but of course it's not. I talked about in my 39 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,160 introduction of that book that we're one people, but the 40 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,960 differences were really stark. And, you know, in that book I 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,600 discuss the difference in how we read a text. 42 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,360 There's a chapter there called Reading Literally and literally 43 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:04,280 Reading and how in Andalusia one understood that language is 44 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,040 limited and language has to be interpreted and and, and 45 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:14,720 literature has to be seen in the larger context of, you know, 46 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,200 other factors, philosophy and science. 47 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,080 And so when a text is exposing an idea, one has to dig deep. 48 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:29,240 Harambam uses the pasuk in Michele that the Golden Apple, 49 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,560 which is covered with a silver netting. 50 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,520 We always have to probe and dig deep for the golden apple. 51 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,640 Our brothers and sisters in Europe were much more 52 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,880 literalists. They read texts in a literal 53 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,520 way. I discuss a lot of these 54 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,920 differences in the first book. My second book, Founding Fathers 55 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:54,240 of Sephardic Jury, I wanted to respond to the many out there, 56 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,160 including, I think I mentioned this at the time, also my friend 57 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,160 Micah Goodman and others who are putting out into the world that 58 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,600 Harambeam created a new religion, invented a new 59 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,520 Judaism, which is false. And I proved that in my book 60 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,480 Founding Fathers of Sephardic Jewry. 61 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:19,120 I trace ideas that dig back to Rabba Sadia Gaon, who probably 62 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,800 is the most authoritative link to the Talmud, right through to 63 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,640 Haraambam, and the Ibn Tibon families who translated the text 64 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,240 of Andalusia. If anything, our brothers and 65 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,200 sisters in Europe with Kabbalah and with magic and with 66 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:42,920 superstition introduced into Judaism, something that was not 67 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,120 prevalent in Rabbinic Judaism. It existed in Rabbinic Judaism, 68 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,200 but it wasn't mainstream Rabbinic Judaism. 69 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,200 And then my third book, this one that was just published this 70 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,920 year is Jewish Mysticism. I want to reclaim our language 71 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:02,240 back. This is very, very, very 72 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,040 important and and people raise eyebrows. 73 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,360 Jewish Mysticism and the guide of the perplexed. 74 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,480 How can the 2GO together in the same sentence? 75 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,680 And they do, because people are fixated on this idea that Jewish 76 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,320 mysticism has to be Kabbalah. And it's not. 77 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:24,240 You might want to say it's one arm of mysticism, European, 78 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,760 Jewish, European mysticism, Northern Spanish, medieval 79 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,880 mysticism full of magic and superstition and corporeality 80 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,200 and thurgy. But Harambam has a whole 81 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:46,000 different Jewish mysticism, and Andalusia put forth a mysticism, 82 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:51,080 a Jewish mysticism that is pure, that seeks out proximity with 83 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:57,480 God, closeness with God, deep spiritual experiences, ecstatic 84 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,600 experiences that are philosophically sound, 85 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:11,200 scientifically sound. And we don't have to throw our 86 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:18,440 reason and rationalism out the window to pursue a deeply 87 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:26,360 profound Jewish mysticism. And so I it's important that my 88 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,120 readers and of course my students over the last 30 years 89 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:37,840 understand that a Judaism without a spiritual, mystical 90 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:44,200 tradition is dry. And that wasn't Rambam's 91 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:49,400 Judaism. You know, the academic world. 92 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,440 They dried up. Sought not just that, they 93 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,600 sought to create Rambam as like a schizophrenic dual 94 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,000 personality. You know, he was the Rambam of 95 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,080 the guide of the perplexed, the man who was a rationalist, no 96 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,600 need for religion. And then he was the IT was the 97 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,320 man of the Mishnet Torah, who, you know, the masses. 98 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,800 I live amongst the masses, so I have to give them the Jewish 99 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,480 law. That's nonsense. 100 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,280 Anybody who reads both the guide of the perplexed Moran Nebuchim 101 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:28,480 and Mishnet Torah sees this synthesis of philosophy and 102 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:34,760 spirituality and this sublime sense of closeness to God, this 103 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,880 language of love and passion and awe that permeates all of 104 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,720 Harambeam's literature and books. 105 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,560 The frustration existed even in our own camps. 106 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,640 That's the real truth. You know, so many in my, in, in 107 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:56,920 my own camp would say, you know, I, I, I embrace Rambam, but he's 108 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,280 too rationalist for me. What does that mean? 109 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,760 Too rationalist for me? You know, let me just put a 110 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,400 further layer on this. There are actually Shalotte and 111 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:15,240 Chuvot, and if you Google YouTube poschem who seriously 112 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,400 question whether it's permitted to study the Moranovochim today. 113 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,560 How could you even raise that as a question? 114 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:29,160 The most important book after the Torah and Talmud is the 115 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,720 Moranovochim, no doubt, hands down for me. 116 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,679 And so that's why I tried to make it accessible in this book. 117 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,960 And the response I've gotten has just been magnificent across the 118 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,720 board, the Jewish, non Jewish academics, rabbis, students. 119 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,960 And you know, they have. A talent in in making these, you 120 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,200 know, deep concepts digestible. Thank you. 121 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,000 Thank you. Right now there's talk about 122 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,240 translating it into Hebrew and into Spanish, which is very 123 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,200 nice. And I, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm, 124 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,160 I'm, I feel grateful for that. That's the real truth. 125 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:12,200 It's been a labor of love. But to really put out there a 126 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:17,760 reading of Harambeam that I, I believe, you know, this might 127 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,440 sound strange. It's the naive reading. 128 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,160 It's the way he wanted us to read his texts, right? 129 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,120 And the original readers of Harambam, including the original 130 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,720 the first translator Shumweli bin Tibon, read it as a mystical 131 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,560 text. That goes lost on people. 132 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,520 That goes lost on people totally. 133 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,920 Because it's it's it's it's inconceivable to me that 134 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,000 Harambam would have the Tibon family translated personally. 135 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,320 Ask them to translate it and they take it a certain way and 136 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,640 that is and no. And Strauss has the right way, 137 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,280 not them. Correct. 138 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,360 That doesn't make sense. Aramban reviewed parts of the 139 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,840 initial translation. He embraced it. 140 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,560 And Shweli Bentibon was a philosopher and a Mystic. 141 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,920 The schools of Andalucia produced incredible Mystics. 142 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,920 Ibn Pakuda, Ibn Gabirol, these guys were on a different level 143 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,080 spiritually. So that I hope that answers your 144 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,440 question. That's really big, my motivation 145 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,760 over the years. So very, very noble, just to 146 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,800 echo a few points, maybe to Polish it from my own 147 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,720 understanding, so correct me if I'm wrong. 148 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,720 So this idea, Obama's a rationalist. 149 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,960 The way I understand what people are saying when say he's too 150 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,240 much of A rationalist for me is that they're hinting at is that 151 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,480 a rationalist by definition, is somebody who essentially 152 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:52,400 believes that the that rational understanding is the is is the 153 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,240 full and complete understanding that there cannot be anything 154 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:01,320 beyond our rational knowledge. Rational knowledge encompasses 155 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,960 all, whereas Hagenbaum would be someone who you, you maybe 156 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,720 consider consider super irrational in which he 157 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:14,480 acknowledges the the rational universe and and and and what's 158 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:20,040 the word and it's within, It's within the the order of of of 159 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,520 knowledge. But there is knowledge that goes 160 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,880 beyond the rational knowledge. One that is not it's not 161 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:32,040 intelligible in terms of saying 1 + 1 is 2 and and but one 162 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,240 that's that can be inspired to get little glimpses. 163 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,240 We would call it right? He calls. 164 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,880 It flashes. Flashes, that's what I you're 165 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,960 exactly right. Flashes That my teacher, Nevoir, 166 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,440 essentially. Nevoir, yeah. 167 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,560 My teacher Hakamfour called what you're describing meta 168 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:50,400 rationalism. Meta Rationalism. 169 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,240 Exactly. And he, he talks about that, 170 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,480 Hakamfour writes about it. The, the my, my, my path is a 171 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,000 little different. And you know, like Benji said, I 172 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,560 try to make these difficult concepts, especially in medieval 173 00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:08,280 language, accessible to us. And so my path, the language I 174 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:16,320 use is inducing love, inducing awe in the seeker. 175 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:23,000 You know, I was recently asked, you know, for Haram bomb, you 176 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,520 know, Massimer Bereshit and Massimer Kava is is is physics 177 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:33,920 and and quantum physics. And I said, yeah, wrap your 178 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,320 brain around some of that stuff. And it's mind boggling. 179 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:39,720 Yeah. That's the real truth. 180 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,480 And when one does, when you think about quantum physics or 181 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,160 you think about the vast universe that we are suspended 182 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:55,320 in, that should induce in you a sense of awe and wonder, and it 183 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,120 should lead to a sense of profound love of the creator of 184 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:04,200 this universe, which is God. And so those are the moments 185 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,520 that the soul is stirred into a spiritual ecstasy. 186 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:14,480 You don't need the addiction of another miracle, you know, 187 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:19,280 another superstitious belief, another gematria, you know, 188 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,960 another Rebbe story, Hararambam would say. 189 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:29,640 Enough of that. Find that fuel in the. 190 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,560 It is. In the world, in the Torah, in 191 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:37,800 the wisdom of Torah. Well said. 192 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:38,760 I think that's what you were saying. 193 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,160 Benzene I. Yeah, that's exactly, yes. 194 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:46,960 It's a it's, it's using we, we expand our knowledge within 195 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,440 reality to then to then also see, to be able to acknowledge 196 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,640 and and feel God's awe and also understand that there are things 197 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,400 that we don't understand. And within that prism of what we 198 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,400 don't understand, lies. Exactly. 199 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:06,960 A lot more and and we kind of have to in steps get there 200 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,360 instead of just erasing everything and jumping to some, 201 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,680 you know, ontological reality, which would be something like 202 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:18,040 the lamotte and which are more ontological. 203 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,400 Whereas this is starting from the ground up. 204 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,120 And then when you get there, it's within the incorporated 205 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,520 reality that we're within. I actually, I wanted to ask, I 206 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,840 don't know if I asked you the last time we had you on, I might 207 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,000 have. But like Professor Menachem 208 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,920 Kellner, I believe you're friends with like he obviously 209 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,640 sees Rama as as not a, as a completely rational, you know, 210 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,440 not, not a mystical. And there are people like that 211 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,800 like like Rabbi Natan Slifkin sees it the same way. 212 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,960 How do you do your conversation with? 213 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,840 Where do they go? Like how do you? 214 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,200 Yeah, I, I made a point of including, I, I got a lot of 215 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,120 approbations and, and letters for my first book from many, 216 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,080 many scholars. Menachem wrote 1 and I included 217 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,720 his on the back cover because the first line he writes, you 218 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,520 know, I disagree with Rabbi Yamili's main premise, which is 219 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,000 there's no such thing as mystical union. 220 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,120 But I've been harassing him and we, we've studied texts 221 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:23,080 together. And in this book, I, I worked 222 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:30,680 on, I, I, I prove mystical union based on the study of Professor 223 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,320 Guidon Friedenthal. Freudenthal, who is a professor 224 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:40,720 at Tel Aviv University, world renowned scientific philosopher, 225 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,280 and he wrote a number of articles on the Morani Vukim 226 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,840 where he shows how, and it's not for this conversation, but you 227 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:56,560 should read it in the book how how Rambam brilliantly through 228 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:03,160 medieval science philosophy speaks to the possibility of 229 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,120 mystical union. And the truth is, I'm badgering 230 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,400 my good friend Rabbi Kaliner. He's read this book and he's 231 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,680 coming around him and many people are coming around to this 232 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:23,040 idea that the finite human being can indeed link with the 233 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,240 infinite. That's the first chapter of the 234 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:32,280 Guide of the perplexed. Now I use contemporary language. 235 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,520 What does it mean? The image of God, I call it 236 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,720 Hararambam, called it whatever I call it, consciousness, high 237 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,120 level consciousness, this aware of this, this, this, this, this, 238 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,720 this ability we have as human beings that scientists even 239 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,560 today don't fully understand and appreciate how it is that we can 240 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,800 self reflect our, our, our brain is made-up of cells and, and, 241 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,920 and synapses and gel and we're able to self reflect, we're able 242 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:09,400 to cooperate, we're able to communicate in very, very 243 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,280 sophisticated ways. And there's no doubt, at least 244 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:22,160 in my mind, that consciousness is that possibility within us, 245 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,520 if it's trained correctly in how Rambam gives us, and I talk 246 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:32,600 about it in this book, a practice to train one's mind and 247 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:39,360 consciousness to link up with the divine to access knowledge 248 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:45,040 and wisdom that we don't or can't necessarily access, you 249 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,240 know, by reading more books. And it's a real thing. 250 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,320 I've, I've experienced it. Join me at 4:00 in the morning 251 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,000 in my meditation room here. And you know, I'll take you to 252 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,480 place. And I tell this to my students, 253 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,840 I'll take you to places that are remarkable, are amazing. 254 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,680 So. So I think that the that the 255 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,080 that the reason why I'm not speaking for someone like 256 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,800 Professor Kellner. I'm just talking in general, 257 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,440 like for, for, for people that that gravitate more towards 258 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,040 either you want to call it rationalism, which we understand 259 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,800 is a mischaracterization. But those who are more towards 260 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,520 Havan Bam's camp, I think the reason why they're uncomfortable 261 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,640 with the word mystical union, I think it has a lot to do with 262 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,840 language. And what I mean by that is, is 263 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,960 that for most people, and possibly because of the 264 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,000 influence of Kabbalah, mystical union feels like a like an 265 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:40,280 anthropomorphism of God, meaning mystical union with God is kind 266 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,320 of like God coming down from what he is, we going up. 267 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,840 And then like, you know, we kind of meet in this middle of this 268 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,640 ontological like, you know, blurred line of finite and 269 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,160 infinite. And you know, there we are with 270 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,840 mystical union in Kabbalah would be, you know, going up to the 271 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,040 Lamothe, let's call it right, right. 272 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,360 So, and when you said what you just said, there was a there 273 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,760 you, you were talking about not necessarily ontological union, 274 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,000 which I think is what most people generally consider when, 275 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,000 when the words mystical union is used, but rather an intellectual 276 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,040 knowledge based union. And if maybe you can expand on 277 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,400 that, it would help people could be maybe come more more towards 278 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,760 what you're saying. Could be, could be. 279 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:28,200 I'm not talking anthropomorphically here at all. 280 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,280 You know what I'm saying? I wanted to clear that up for 281 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,960 this. But Harambam at the end of the 282 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Murene Wuhim speaks of those who can achieve closeness to the 283 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,440 inner sanctuary where the king resides, and the seven stages 284 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,880 and levels. And the lowest level is those 285 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:55,280 that are outside the gates of the Kingdom facing the wrong 286 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,440 direction. And those that achieve the 287 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:04,960 different levels get the the the opportunity to enter into the 288 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,360 inner sanctuary that's not anthropomorphic. 289 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,440 That's a real experience. Hararambam wouldn't write it if 290 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:20,720 it wasn't a real experience. And we achieved that by I talked 291 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,640 about this in my first book, Purging the mind of all the 292 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,600 Nonsense. And you keep talking about 293 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:35,400 Kabbalah with respect, respect. I say purge the mind of all 294 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,640 those. Really. 295 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,360 It's it's, it's Hevel Hevalim. It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a 296 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:47,520 drug that, that, that confuses and clogs the spirit from great 297 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,160 elevations and again, superstitions and, and, and, and 298 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,880 false promises. You know, this poor young couple 299 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,080 came to see me recently. They're having marriage 300 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,240 problems. And they they came to tell me 301 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,200 that one of the rabbi's said to them, bring me your kit to BA 302 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,320 because your problems are already in your kituba that you 303 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,720 signed 20 years ago. I'm so worried that I'm so 304 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,040 worried that I know who you're talking about. 305 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,000 It's. Such nonsense. 306 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,840 It's so sad. It's so sad. 307 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,560 You know, my my son fell off his bicycle and the rabbi said check 308 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,120 your mezuzahs. Stop that. 309 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,040 I'm curious to know your thoughts on the earlier 310 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,400 Mikubalem and even I would say someone like Rabbi Abraham 311 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,320 Aboulafia, who is not the typical he's not ready my mana 312 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,200 Dean, but he's not Kabbalist, but his his views on prophecies, 313 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,760 you know, is somewhat my mana Dean. 314 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,880 So like there can someone gain a lot from that kind of meditation 315 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,360 because obviously he uses the names of Hashem and all the holy 316 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,240 names and all that, that stuff. Obviously not. 317 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,960 But what do you, what do you see from the Kabbalistic side, let's 318 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,880 say, that could be useful? So Avraham Abu Lafia is a good 319 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,360 example. He referred to Haram Bam as the 320 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:16,760 Prince of Princess. He read the Moran Ebuchem as a 321 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:26,960 book teaching prophecy. Now, unfortunately, he was too 322 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:33,680 immersed in those northern Spanish Franco German 323 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,280 kabbalistic traditions that misled him. 324 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,840 Because you can't, you can't achieve higher realms of 325 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,160 spirituality when you're so immersed in thurgy and 326 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,560 superstitions and magic and corporeality, which is the 327 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,280 worst? And so that that's what 328 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,600 misguided him and misled him. But his original writings about 329 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,040 the Guide of the Perplexed, they're very profound, very 330 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,000 beautiful. I've studied them deeply. 331 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,880 I write about it in my first book. 332 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,200 Yeah, OK. Let's go on next. 333 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,200 Very interesting. OK, so in your chapter The Path 334 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,880 of Jewish Law, you ask whether the pursuit of higher 335 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,520 consciousness or metaphysical knowledge can bypass the the 336 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,560 premacy of Halaha. How does Maimonides navigate the 337 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,080 tension between individual spiritual striving through 338 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,160 science, philosophy, or mysticism and the collective 339 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,480 binding nature of Jewish law? Wow, that's a fantastic 340 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,880 question. I really debated whether to 341 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,880 include that chapter in the book because the answer to that 342 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:54,240 question is tucked away in vintage my Mauna Deon way in his 343 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:03,760 introduction to the Mishna in about 7 paragraphs. 8 paragraphs 344 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,240 somewhere in the middle of his comment of his introduction to 345 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,280 the Mishna. In a nutshell, I'm going to say 346 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:25,880 the following for Harambeam. Mitzvot aren't just a way of God 347 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,320 testing us, as many schools in the Middle Ages believed. 348 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,440 You're not supposed to inquire about them. 349 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,040 It's what they would say. You just do them because God 350 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,000 commanded them. That was not Harambam's 351 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,920 approach. Harambam believed that just like 352 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:52,280 you can induce incredible love and awe of God by peering into 353 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,240 the, you know, night sky or seeing a beautiful sunrise or 354 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,720 sunset, you also can induce A profound love in awe of God by 355 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,400 studying his mitzvot, the law that he commanded, and the 356 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,840 profound deep wisdom in that law. 357 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:18,840 For Haram Bam, God gave Musharra Benu the law, not as just 358 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:27,280 something capricious, but something to make us better 359 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:31,920 human beings and make society better and make the world 360 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,240 better. And so the truth of the matter 361 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,520 is, there is access to God without the law. 362 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:47,560 But the law, Jewish law is what completes the individual in 363 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:53,720 terms of wisdom, in terms of knowledge, and in terms of 364 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,320 goodness. And so let me just, if it's OK, 365 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,600 let me see if I can find it very, very quickly. 366 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,640 I want to read you, you know, for let me just see the pages. 367 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,400 It's like it's here in the middle of here. 368 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,880 It is. I'm going to read you a quote 369 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,440 from Haram Bomb chapter 327. The true law, which as we said 370 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,600 is 1 and beside which there is no other law. 371 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,400 The law of our teacher Moses has for its purpose to give us the 372 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,000 twofold perfection. It aims, first at the 373 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,720 establishment of good mutual relations among men by removing 374 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,000 injustice and creating the noblest feeling. 375 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:37,920 Secondly, it seeks to train us in faith and to impart correct 376 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,520 and true opinions. When the intellect is 377 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:47,960 sufficiently developed. So one has to engage and 378 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,200 practice and allow Jewish law to completely resonate with one's 379 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,760 life and lifestyle and being to really achieve those higher 380 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,600 levels of spirituality that Haran Baum asks we pursue. 381 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,400 Does that make sense? He he in, I think it's the 4th 382 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,560 chapter of you said maybe third or fourth. 383 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,520 I think it's the 4th chapter of he actually says that knowledge 384 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,240 of Allah is the prerequisite for for pardes. 385 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,960 Absolutely 100%. What goes with what you're 386 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,440 saying? 100 percent, 100%. 387 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,560 That's why the Mishnitora and Morani Bohim go together. 388 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,760 And I write about this progression of his evolution and 389 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,080 how he put this material out. And I'm a firm believer. 390 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,760 I write about this in my book, The Founding Fathers of 391 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,800 Sephardic Jury, that Harambam dedicated his life to preserve 392 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,320 the Andalusian tradition. Without this, we would have lost 393 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,400 it completely, right? We wouldn't have had the 394 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,240 Andalusian Jewish tradition. That was a good question, Ben. 395 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:54,040 I think I think one of the most interesting things about his 396 00:27:54,040 --> 00:28:00,040 approach is that he says 1 should ascribe, you know, reason 397 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,360 to the mitzvot. Also like if you come across. 398 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:05,760 100% roof. That supports the the, you know, 399 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,160 like the knowledge or or the wisdom of Hashem. 400 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,120 You, you should actually, you should go with that, even if 401 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,960 even if it's not exactly on point, but you know, he 402 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,320 encouraged that kind of thinking. 403 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,160 So that's. Right, 100% the the study and 404 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,840 purpose and reason for mitzvot is, is an A process that we 405 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,600 evolved with, you know, Aaron Bamu writes in the morning of 406 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,800 it's impossible to suggest that God didn't have reasons for the 407 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,160 mitzvot. And our purpose is to study and 408 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,920 think through those reasons and, and and and present various 409 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,880 possibilities of reasons. Will we understand them all? 410 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,800 Maybe not. Will we understand some? 411 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,800 Maybe that's the beauty of it. That's what connects us. 412 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,840 I wrote a whole article on this years ago on on how Harambam's 413 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:59,200 approach to to Amir mitzvot is what builds community of the 414 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,760 Jewish people. Anyways, that's that's yeah. 415 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,320 Yeah, because I think people are sometimes shackled by this idea 416 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,120 of like, well, if it wasn't brought down in a particular 417 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,640 source, then I shouldn't go there with my thoughts or I 418 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,080 shouldn't, you know. But in in the modern age where a 419 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,760 lot of things are being revealed to us about, you know, 420 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,080 archaeology and, and the ancient world that they didn't have 421 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,280 access to, it's mind blowing the things you can actually ascribe 422 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,560 to the mitzvot because you have this information. 100%. 423 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,240 Yeah. So I think him, him saying that 424 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,160 empowers us in a way in this. Absolutely. 425 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,600 Absolutely. I totally agree. 426 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,200 I totally agree. Those are important chapters in 427 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,960 Section 3 of the guide, beginning with chapter 25, the 428 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,600 whole section on Tamiya mitzvot is very, very important. 429 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,520 And in contrast to our brothers and sisters and Ashkenaz in 430 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,440 Europe who said we're not supposed to investigate reasons 431 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:55,360 for mitzvot, they felt, no, it's God's will, just do it, right. 432 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,560 Very different approach, right? Yeah, it is. 433 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,440 Hard. It is hard to grow with the 434 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,440 mitzvot if you're just going with it's God's will. 435 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,120 And that is true that it is God's will. 436 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,480 And regardless of how far we do or don't get an understanding 437 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,400 the mitzvot, we are obligated to do it. 438 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,280 And there's for sure things that we don't understand that that 439 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,840 that that is incorporated within it. 440 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,560 But to your point, the point is not just the action itself, but 441 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,320 to grow with the action. And that can only be done when 442 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,200 we ascribe meaning so that we can grow with it and. 443 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,800 And and we see the infinite wisdom of God, you know, in, in, 444 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,320 in, in these mutual. Yeah, beautiful. 445 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,160 Yes, that was a good question. Thank you. 446 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,720 So I wanted to get into the chapter which I love the topic 447 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,360 of Iov. I think that we that that topic 448 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,800 alone deserves its own podcast, but for another time, in the 449 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,000 chapter you wrote, the The Knowledge that Heals you explore 450 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,040 Rambam's personal suffering, how it informed his reading of 451 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,440 Sephir Eov. So at a high level, how does he 452 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,880 understand the message of Sephir Eov and how does it connect to 453 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,560 his powerful statement that were not for Toran philosophy? 454 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,600 Quote on quote, I should have succumbed to my afflictions. 455 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,360 Well, beautiful question. So first of all, it's 456 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,920 interesting to note that in the entire guide of the perplexed, 457 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:25,920 EOV occupies probably the most amount of ink. 458 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,600 You know, Musharraf, they knew probably a second, but EOV 459 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,120 occupies the most. And I think there are two 460 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:40,000 reasons for that reason. Number one is because of all the 461 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,720 characters and personalities in the Tanakh. 462 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:52,680 EOV or the Tanakh describes EO's enlightenment in a very powerful 463 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:59,080 way, in a way that Harenbaum wishes he could do in his Guide 464 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:04,280 of the Perplex. The end goal of the guide is an 465 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,520 EO type enlightenment. But the second piece, and I 466 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,920 think it's what you were alluding to Benji, is that 467 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,360 Harenbam found a lot of comfort in EOS experience. 468 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:26,720 And you know how Rambam did experience loss in a very 469 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,320 profound way. I, I, I, I, I mentioned in my 470 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,920 book how he describes the loss of his brother, almost like 471 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,880 losing a son, like losing a child. 472 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,600 You know that that's how deep it was for him. 473 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,480 And, and he writes in some of the letters that he was 474 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,120 depressed for a very long time. And as you said, if it wasn't 475 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:54,720 for his continued study of Torah, he would have perished in 476 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,480 his despair. So what is it that heals? 477 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:05,920 What aspect of Torah heals? And here Hararambam's reading of 478 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:11,680 Iov is so profound and so beautiful. 479 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,400 Unfortunately, most readers you can't get beyond the four 480 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,760 philosophical schools that are Rambam begins by describing you 481 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,280 know and they get you know it just gets it gets too technical 482 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,120 for them. Here is the punchline of the EU 483 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:40,760 of peace. When God says to E, of where 484 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,760 were you when I created the world? 485 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:50,880 When God says to Eov, where were you when I put the leviathans 486 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,760 out in the sea and the soaring eagles in the sky? 487 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,720 And Eov responds by submitting to that truth. 488 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,639 What's the truth that Eov came to know? 489 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,840 And what I'm going to tell you now is really what the entire 490 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:21,239 Guide of the Perplexed is about. The truth that EOS came to 491 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:30,960 realize is that we human beings are a speck on this Earth, and 492 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,520 our Earth is a speck of a speck in our Milky Way. 493 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:43,600 And in our Milky Way, there are 2 trillion Suns the size of our 494 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,840 sun. And in the 26 billion year 495 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,280 universe there are some 3 trillion Milky Ways that we are 496 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:58,560 aware of. And when we embrace this 497 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:05,360 recognition of how we are suspended in this vast universe 498 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:14,320 by just the grace of God, how could any pain or suffering or 499 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:21,840 loss fill my existence? It can't. 500 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:27,320 My existence is so much more than that loss. 501 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:37,560 The loss is tragic, yes, but my existence and my very being is a 502 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:44,000 miracle beyond comprehension. And that was EO's great 503 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,520 enlightenment. And that when Hararambam, what 504 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,760 Hararambam is telling me is when he studies Torah, that's the 505 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,440 place he goes to. He goes to this place of 506 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:08,440 incredible awe and profound love of God, creator of this vast, 507 00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:12,560 incredible universe. I was just in New Rochelle last 508 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,160 week and I read to this beautiful crowd there. 509 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:22,520 Chapter 14 and Section 3 where Harambam describes the distance 510 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,160 between the earth and the moon and the earth and some of the 511 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,160 planets. And the furthest distance 512 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,680 Harambam can can describe is 850,000 mil. 513 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,320 And for the person in the Middle Ages, that was like this huge 514 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,280 number that must have induced the sense of incredible awe. 515 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,960 And I joked with the crowd, I showed them a picture of a 516 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,400 recent James Webb telescope image of the universe. 517 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,720 And I said, imagine if Haram bomb. 518 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,960 Wow. That's what we should be feeling 519 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,480 when we when we look out into the night sky and remind 520 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:11,440 ourselves how infinitesimally small we are and yet how 521 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,880 magnificent our creation is. And what I write about in my 522 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,120 book, it's a famous quote, people have been quoting this 523 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:24,960 all the time, is that moment where we recognize how 524 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,320 infinitesimally small we are, but at the same time how 525 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,560 incredibly grand our consciousness is. 526 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:37,240 That's mysticism. That's the moment of profound 527 00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:43,760 spiritual equanimity, and that's the moment of EOV. 528 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,400 And that's the healing that we can achieve, how Rambam 529 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,160 achieved. And that's was EO's moment of 530 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,560 great enlightenment. So if you were to ask me what's 531 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,520 the guide about? It's those chapters on EOV. 532 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,240 It's, it's, it's, it's that moment of enlightenment. 533 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,240 Does that answer your question? Absolutely, I mean, there's so 534 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:09,720 much more we could discuss, but to me, one of the most like I I 535 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:12,320 watched one of these videos years ago on the size of the 536 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:19,040 universe and 111 fact just always it's still today gives me 537 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:20,880 chills. The thought of it is that there 538 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:26,360 are more stars in the known universe, immensely more stars 539 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,320 than there are grains of sand on the earth. 540 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:29,880 Correct. Which is insane. 541 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,000 But that's what that's where you want to be. 542 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,240 You want to induce that insane moment. 543 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:40,000 You want to constantly, because if you stay there, Benji, in 544 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,880 meditation, in that insane moment, your spirit flies. 545 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,440 You know what I'm saying to you? Be there in those in those 546 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,600 moments where the mind is like bending and that's where you 547 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,760 want to go. That's where I try to take my 548 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,280 students in meditation. That's where you want to go, 549 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,440 though. Today the universe is about 26 550 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:08,320 billion years old, but that number keeps changing because 551 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:15,720 the vastness of what we're able to know today, that's my Sibora 552 00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:20,800 sheet. My simmer Kava is beyond that 553 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,520 moment of, you know, what we call today The Big Bang. 554 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,280 And that's that place where there is no time, there is no 555 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,440 space. Unfathomable. 556 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:36,600 Yeah. And that's where you want to be. 557 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,000 Keep thinking about that because. 558 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,040 That we we have to, we have to, we have OK, so. 559 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:48,040 So we use the to the furthest limits of the fathomable to 560 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,160 appreciate and sink in the beautiful. 561 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:56,040 That's beautifully said. Yes, yes, yes, but again, from a 562 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,640 training, from a spiritual training place. 563 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:06,240 Unlike Eastern meditation, Jewish meditation is about 564 00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:10,240 inducing love of God. That's what we meditate on. 565 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,920 That's our meditation. We're not just. 566 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,040 Meditating on our breath. Yeah, that was very nice. 567 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:25,480 I was actually just learning of the Rambam today, this morning. 568 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,040 So it's funny that yeah, exactly that part on Shabbat. 569 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,600 So we're not just meditating on our breath to relax ourselves 570 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:39,840 and to we're meditating with an intellectual background and a 571 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,840 scientific background and a philosophical background to 572 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:50,000 induce, as Benji was describing before, this sense of awe of God 573 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:55,560 where you tremble, the prophets, Haram Bam and others describe 574 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,400 would go into these fits of trembling. 575 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,880 That's what. That's how we meditate. 576 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:04,960 You know what's interesting about this? 577 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:13,920 So the Naveen in a sense have a had a much larger handicap in 578 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,800 terms of inducing that awe because their scientific 579 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,080 knowledge was actually very minimal. 580 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,720 We have immensely more scientific knowledge. 581 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,360 And like you said, the world is trillion times more than what it 582 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:34,120 was for Navi in terms of what he could have imagined or or or 583 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,880 gone to. Yet interestingly enough, the 584 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,240 world seems to have become increasingly superficial. 585 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:46,120 We have become increasingly superficial, and we have more to 586 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,880 work with to induce that. It's just interesting to me. 587 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,480 We've lost touch with nature. Though we've become more 588 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,560 distracted, unfortunately, but but it's not all lost. 589 00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:01,400 We could tap into that. And Harambam in chapter in 590 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,320 chapter 51 talks about at night when you're lying in bed, 591 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,080 control your mind. Don't let it race into nonsense. 592 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,840 And he talks about meditation. And the meditation should be 593 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,000 love of God. I say do it in the early hours 594 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,360 of the morning before Tefila, before Shakarit, before the sun 595 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:28,040 rises and where everything is quiet and peaceful and get rid 596 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,480 of distractions and use the knowledge we have accessible to 597 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,280 us. Today. 598 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,880 I subscribe to Astronomy magazine. 599 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,800 Why? The pictures throw me into this 600 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:44,680 sense of incredible awe, pictures of this vast universe. 601 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,120 And you're right in that the opportunities are here, but 602 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,600 we're also so distracted. And the early Naveen were not 603 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,480 distracted, but they didn't have the opportunities we have today. 604 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,640 They had the natural world. They could look up at the 605 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,640 universe into a clear sky. And because we're more self 606 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,080 absorbed, the world is very fast-paced today. 607 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,800 There in, in the, there was a lot of of course, hardships in 608 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,120 the earlier days, but the world was slower. 609 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,280 You know what I mean by that? Everything was slower, not that 610 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,280 everything is faster. And it's like, and we have our 611 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,800 phones and, you know, our minds are racing on nonsense a lot and 612 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,840 a lot. We and and to really to it takes 613 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:35,560 real dedication and, and and and a willingness to to really 614 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,560 involve yourself in transformation. 615 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,240 Yeah, I you, one of the exercises I do with the 616 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:45,840 students, and Harambam writes about this in the guide, is 617 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,080 remind ourselves what God is not. 618 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,720 And you just take it deeper and deeper and deeper. 619 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,120 So of course he's not physical, Of course he's not big. 620 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,800 Of course he's not this, he's not strong. 621 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,880 And then we start getting into God is also not merciful. 622 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:07,480 And people, What do you mean? Yeah, because mercy is a human 623 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,240 feeling. We could apply mercy to God 624 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:15,840 because we believe it's something good, but that has to 625 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,800 also be checked off the box. We have to completely purge our 626 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:27,800 minds of all those things we think God is or might be, 627 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:32,280 because he's not. We can't fathom what is beyond 628 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:38,280 that moment of The Big Bang, and yet we have to allow our minds 629 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:43,480 to induce this sense of, like Benji said, craziness, you know, 630 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,400 this sense of, like, incredible awe. 631 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,440 So it does, it does give people the impression though, that God 632 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,600 is a very distant to God because he's on, you can't relate to him 633 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,520 in those ways. But at the same time, what 634 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,640 you're saying is that mystical union is the is the goal, and 635 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,400 it's achievable. It's that tension, it's that 636 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:09,720 exact tension, this transcendence that 637 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,960 philosophically is not achievable, but spiritually is 638 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,640 achievable, right? We're we're, we're trying to 639 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,800 transcend the bounds of our existence, correct our 640 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,160 consciousness. And by doing so, we're kind of 641 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,240 emulating in a way got as much as we can. 642 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:28,880 Obviously not. It's not, it's not really 643 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,040 possible, but I understand what you're saying. 644 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,960 So I actually want to, you know, get into the next part which is 645 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,600 connected to this. I was just mentioning in, in, in 646 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,680 Rambam, when he's, when he's teaching in, in the mission of 647 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,640 Torah, he's teaching in safer Ahava about Shmai srael and how 648 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,920 when I was learning it today, he was talking about how his, his 649 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,040 Yaakov Vavino is teaching this idea of the oneness of Hashem to 650 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,240 his sons. And this is going to lead into 651 00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,840 the next question, which is the radical unity. 652 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,240 The chapter that you wrote radical unity Shemais or El. 653 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,320 And you highlight Rambam's bold assertion that it is ridiculous 654 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,920 to say God is 1 as it, as it is to say God is many. 655 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,320 So can you explain what he means by this? 656 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,840 How this notion of radical oneness challenges conventional 657 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,600 theology and how it should shape the way we speak about or relate 658 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,080 to God? Fantastic question. 659 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,760 So first thing I do in that chapter, which is very important 660 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,960 and I hope you picked it up. Harambam innovative his own 661 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:34,960 Midrash, the Gemara asks. In my second Pisakim, page 54 a, 662 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,760 the Gemara asks the basic Halachi question, how can we 663 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:45,640 interrupt the sequence of tupis sukim with the words? 664 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,520 It's unheard of. You're interrupting a sequence 665 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:54,040 of sukim with an invented line. That line doesn't appear 666 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,000 anywhere in Tanakh. I do a search and the Gemara 667 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:04,120 answers a story of rich lakish that he learned that Yakov Avinu 668 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:08,400 was on his deathbed and he wanted to reveal to his children 669 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:16,520 the end of days, and it was withheld from him. 670 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,680 So he asked his children, My children, is there anyone here 671 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,400 who doesn't believe? And they all said, no, Shama 672 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,160 Israel a shamal ocaino hashemihad. 673 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,520 So he responded, Baruch Shane kivod mahutoli olambad. 674 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,840 That's not what Harambeam writes in the Mishnet Torah, correct. 675 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,480 Harambeam writes in the Mishnet Torah that Abraha Yaakov was on 676 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:42,600 his deathbed and he wanted to reveal to his children Yehudo 677 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:48,320 Shalakadosh Baruhu, the unity, the oneness of God, and the 678 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,120 profound secret in the oneness of God. 679 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,440 And before he did so, he wanted to ascertain that all his 680 00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:01,720 children were on the same page as believers. 681 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,920 And then they said Shmai Israel and he said Baruch Shane kevod 682 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,480 mahu tolu Alameda. So what's that deep secret that 683 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:16,520 he wanted to teach them? And so Haram bam in the 1st 9 684 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,960 Halahot of Yohotia Soda Torah divides this up into two parts, 685 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,440 that which everybody should know, men, women and children, 686 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,600 and that which the advanced students should know. 687 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,720 He makes the same division in Section 1, chapter 34 and 688 00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:37,440 Section 1, chapter 35, that which everybody should know and 689 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,320 that which the more advanced students should know. 690 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,400 Everybody should know that when we say Hashemiah Keanu 691 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:51,360 Hashemihat, it doesn't mean one. That's a misconception, because 692 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:56,800 if you believe God is 1, then you believe he's divisible or 693 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,440 there's one in the context of others. 694 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,200 Nah, that's not the case, says Hararambam. 695 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:09,320 It's a one that is unique. It's a one. 696 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,280 Again, language fails us. We don't have a word for this in 697 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,160 the language, so we use one. But we have to know what that 698 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,880 one means. So a Professor Herman Cohen of 699 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,880 the early 20th century used the word unity. 700 00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:32,160 Others use the word unique. Others use the word infinite. 701 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:38,160 Hashem is infinite. Harambam didn't have a language 702 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:42,000 for infinite maybe ain't soft, but who I, I don't remember is 703 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:48,440 using that. So that word ekhad is something 704 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,800 other than one. It's it's, it's it's it's, it's 705 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:56,480 a, it's a unique infinite isn't. Yahid unique. 706 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:58,240 Could be, could be. Yeah, let. 707 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,480 Me know. Yeah, could be. 708 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,840 Yeah, could be. So that's that. 709 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:08,320 So that's the deep secret. Now how Rambam says in the first 710 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,560 few halach what yesterday I had to write in chapter Section 1, 711 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,600 chapter 34, this you have to teach everybody, men, women and 712 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,360 children, unlike our Muslim brothers and sisters who unders 713 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,240 who said, yeah, the scholars should know what the unity of 714 00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:24,520 God is, but let the women believe whatever they want, Let 715 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:25,640 the kids believe whatever they want. 716 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:31,360 Arambam says no. And then there is the more 717 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:38,320 advanced understanding of the transcendence of God and, and, 718 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:43,680 and, and, and God as a creator of, of, of, of what it means to 719 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,600 be the creator of this vast universe. 720 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,120 And so from a theological perspective, first of all, it's 721 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,600 amazing that Harambeam created his own midrash. 722 00:50:55,240 --> 00:50:58,280 That in itself is amazing. And So what Harambeam wants us 723 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,360 to do, when we cover our eyes and we say Baruch Shane 724 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,080 Kevodmal, who told Lambad, we're thinking of our great 725 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:10,560 grandfather, Yakova Vinu teaching us, speaking to us and 726 00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:18,960 saying, reflect on this infinite unity oneness of our Creator of 727 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,960 Hashem theologically and spiritually, that's just so 728 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,120 beautiful and so profound. Yeah, this fundamental idea of 729 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,840 unity with, you know how we learn it with the Shamas. 730 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,080 It's on our doorposts, it's on our it's, it's correct. 731 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,400 It's a Filene. It's on the city gates. 732 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,120 It's like everywhere we go, inside and out. 733 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,560 That is since. We spin. 734 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,840 A shot before we even do you know anything, we have to know 735 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:48,680 this, must know what it really means, the unity of Hashem. 736 00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,400 So I think that is a very important very. 737 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,800 Very important. That's a fundamental premise, 738 00:51:54,920 --> 00:52:02,840 fundamental principle, No corporeality, no bargaining with 739 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:08,480 God, absolute submission to God. I was recently asked, you know, 740 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,440 Rabbi, so why do we pray? How does Hararambam understand 741 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:18,640 prayer if God is immutable? And the answer is because the 742 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:25,600 act of submission to God is in itself incredibly powerful and 743 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:34,440 world changing. That act of submission is an act 744 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:41,080 of recognition, which is an act of change, and the smallest 745 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:46,160 change changes everything. Yeah, absolutely. 746 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:48,480 Wow, beautiful. This is great. 747 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,840 We, we, before we go, we wanted to ask you and like we asked all 748 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,120 of our guests, is there any project you're working on? 749 00:52:55,120 --> 00:53:01,480 Anything else you want to plug? Listen, I'm always working on 750 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,600 something. My friends in Israel asked me to 751 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,680 create a teacher's guide for my trilogy of books. 752 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,360 It's it's it's a difficult task. I'm working on that. 753 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:18,920 And yeah, I'm always available to answer questions, to respond. 754 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,760 I get hundreds of emails a week, people who've read or reading my 755 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,120 books and that, that's what I love to do. 756 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:27,680 And how can they? How can they reach you? 757 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,520 Yes, Google Yamin Levy. There's about 3 different emails 758 00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:36,320 ways of getting me you know what I'm saying I I make myself 759 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,320 available and accessible, but I encourage people really to read 760 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,560 this last book. It's an introduction to the 761 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,600 guide of the perplexed. The first chapter is the names 762 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,800 of God, and that's a very important fundamental principle, 763 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,680 this idea that we have to understand that names point to 764 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,240 something. You know, in the ancient world, 765 00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:58,080 names were attributes. And we have to understand what 766 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,800 it means when we speak of names of God or God's name. 767 00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:04,680 Leave it for those who want to read about it. 768 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,400 I encourage people to. Yeah, to study and to read it. 769 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,560 Good. I'm grateful to the two of you 770 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,600 for having me on. I hope this met your high 771 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,280 standards that you have in every of your videos. 772 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:19,440 You guys are fantastic. Thank. 773 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,720 You thank you this very enlightening. 774 00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,080 We really appreciate a lot of really important points were 775 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:25,120 spoken. Thank you so much. 776 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:26,680 Thank you. OK, guys, good. 777 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:28,080 Take care. Bye. 778 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:28,360 Bye.