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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
Doctor Kopin, although you are 

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Christian and we are Jewish, we 
deeply value the importance of 

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emphasizing what unites us. 
Too often, interfaith dialogue 

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becomes centered around debates,
but our focus today is on 

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finding common ground. 
We don't have to agree on 

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everything. 
In fact, especially during a 

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time when anti-Semitism is so 
horrifyingly widespread, we 

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truly appreciate the love and 
support many Christians offer to

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our people, a virtue you 
exemplify. 

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With that said, our audience 
consists most mostly of Orthodox

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Jews, who may not be familiar 
with you or your work. 

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Can you briefly introduce 
yourself and share your 

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expertise? 
Sure. 

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I have. 
Just want to say thank you first

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of all for inviting me to be 
part of this program. 

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I'm grateful for another 
audience than what I typically 

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speak to and I'm grateful for 
the Jewish community that you 

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represent and again stand with 
you all during this time of 

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anti-Semitism on the rise and 
just and again, grateful to to 

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show solidarity with you and 
your Jewish community. 

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So God bless you all. 
Thank you so much. 

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We really appreciate that. 
In terms of my background, I 

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have an undergraduate degree in,
in biblical studies. 

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I also went on to to do further 
study in, in the biblical 

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languages, you know, old, Old 
and New Testaments in, you know,

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at a graduate level and also 
added to that degree the master 

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divinity degree, Master of Arts 
in philosophy of religion. 

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Actually, William Lane Craig was
a professor of mine during those

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days. 
And then I went on eventually to

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get my PhD in philosophy. 
So I have a basically this kind 

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of integrated background in 
biblical studies, theology and 

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philosophy and, and those things
have stood me in good stead. 

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And and so I've worked on 
various books in all of those 

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areas and I when it when the my 
first book on the on you know, 

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his God, a moral monster came 
out to defending the, the, the 

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God of the Hebrew Bible against 
some of the critics from the new

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atheist movement. 
I basically wrote an article and

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then would eventually write that
book is got a moral monster and 

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it received a very good 
response. 

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The book continues to do well 
and I added to that collection 

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with another scholar, Matt 
Flanagan. 

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We co-authored a book called Did
God Really Command Genocide in 

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2014. 
So the Moral monster book in 

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2011. 
The the Did God Really Command 

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Genocide in 2014. 
And then in 2022 I came out with

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another book. 
The the third of the trilogy to 

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to write a book is God of 
Vindictive Bullying, which I 

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cover even more questions from 
the Hebrew Bible, the 

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imprecatory Psalms, the the 
flood of Noah, the first born of

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Egypt, and so forth. 
Trying to add a lot more 

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material to what I covered in 
the previous books. 

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And so I hope this will serve as
a helpful complimentary guide to

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to readers who want to have a 
breadth of understanding of some

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of these difficult passages. 
It's often misunderstood 

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passages from the Hebrew Bible. 
Well, we really appreciate that 

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and we actually are are so 
thrilled. 

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Hopefully we can cover must some
of those topics. 

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I'm I'm sure it's going to be 
difficult, but here goes with 

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the first question, which is 
modern readers often fall into 

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the trap of recency bias 
approaching the Bible through a 

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21st century lens. 
This can cause them to miss how 

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revolutionary the Bible truly 
was for its time. 

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What are some key examples that 
would help a skeptic appreciate 

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the Torah's positive impact on 
humanity? 

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Could you also compare these 
examples to the more primitive 

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laws of the Engineer E like the 
Code of Hammurabi to highlight 

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the radical and groundbreaking 
nature of the Mosaic laws? 

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Sure. 
Yeah, happy to cover those. 

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And it's a, a very dense and 
robust question set of questions

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that we can try to unpack. 
First of all, in the question, 

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I, I wanted to just address the,
the matter of the, of the golden

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rule, as it were, of 
interpretation that you, when 

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you're writing, you would want 
someone else's, someone else to 

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treat your texts fairly. 
And so when you're reading 

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someone else's text, you, you do
that as well. 

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And unfortunately, a lot of 
people who are critical of the 

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Old Testament are very 
dismissive. 

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They haven't looked at context. 
They haven't looked at the 

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ancient Near Eastern background.
They have done often very little

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homework. 
And here sometimes it can be 

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very frustrating to kind of 
build a case carefully looking 

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at words and comparing context 
and so forth, only to be 

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dismissed by the, the wave of a 
hand and showing little regard 

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for the, you know, for the, you 
know, the, the patience that it 

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requires to, to unpack these 
things. 

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And so when we're talking about 
a, the ancient Near Eastern 

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setting that is far different 
from our own, it's far removed 

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from our own modern situation 
in, you know, both language, 

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culture, it is a, it is a world 
a couple of worlds away from us,

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as it were. 
And, and so there are some, some

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things about the, you know, the 
ancient Near Eastern setting 

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that relate to, say, blood and 
semen, you know, certain taboos 

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related to, to, you know, 
impurity or uncleanness. 

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And, and, and we don't have a 
context for that. 

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And so showing patients and, and
saying, well, what does these, 

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what do these, you know, taboos 
mean in an ancient Near Eastern 

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setting, rather than saying, oh,
that's, that's primitive, that's

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crazy, which is often often the 
response that that one gets from

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kind of the casual, you know, 
less than serious minded critic.

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So, so basically we want to ask,
well, what if we approached the 

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old test, the, the hippie, the 
Hebrew Bible? 

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I see Old Testament, the Hebrew 
Bible in, in, in a way that is 

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basically taking into account 
the, the history, the context. 

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What if we treated it with 
charitability rather than 

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suspicion? 
How would we go about doing 

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that? 
And and so one of those, you 

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know, one of the ways in which 
we would, we would approach this

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would be to, to simply look at 
how certain practices were 

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understood. 
When we look at, say, 

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sacrifices, how were sacrifices 
understood in the ancient Near 

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East? 
What is their significance? 

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Is there some kind of a carry 
over for us even today as we 

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look at the nature of sacrifices
and, and, and you could see 

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something that is much more, I 
think, tangible in terms of say,

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you know, our, our basic 
religious impulse that we all 

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have being made in the image of 
God that we are. 

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We are made for something 
transcendent. 

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We are made for something 
deeper. 

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And so we deal with issues such 
as guilt and shame and feeling 

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impure. 
And, and that's why so many 

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different religions in the 
world. 

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And even we have our own 
psychotherapeutic ways of doing 

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this of, of kind of funny 
cleansing for ourselves, of 

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purifying ourselves, of riding 
ourselves of, of, of filth, of 

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impurity, of kind of feeling of 
dirtiness. 

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So we, we, we, we do those sorts
of things. 

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And when we make those sorts of 
connections with how we 

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understand something that could 
be similar in our day, we say, 

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Oh, there's, there's a, there's 
a point of comparison here that 

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we could, that we could 
undertake. 

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So that's those are just a few 
examples and, and what I try to 

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do in in addressing the new 
atheists like Richard Dawkins 

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and Daniel Dennett and others 
who are mocking a lot of these 

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sorts of practices to say, hold 
on of it. 

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Let's pull back and see the 
actually the very rich 

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significance that you may be 
surprised by the sorts of things

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that you see that actually are 
rich and deep and very relevant 

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to, to to our lives. 
So another way of looking at 

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this too is when we use certain 
words like in the old in in the 

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Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament,
the the the translation slave or

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slavery has very loaded emotive 
connotations that connect to the

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antebellum South. 
And I know we'll get to that 

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later on, but what is what is 
often transferred is a modern 

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understanding of quote slavery. 
And it is basically thrust upon 

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the biblical text. 
And there is no nuance. 

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There is no shading. 
It's assumed that it's one of 

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the same. 
And what I'm trying to do is say

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we need to pull back from this 
and say that there is a first, a

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better way of rendering these 
texts, you know, lower trend, 

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you know, like a word like evid,
you know, servant. 

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And, and also looking at what 
was actually practiced in 

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ancient Israel, Does this look 
like the antebellum South or is 

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this something quite different? 
And, and as I try to point out, 

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this is indeed quite different. 
And there is a, a portion in my 

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book is God of vindictive bully 
where I try to draw these 

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various comparisons between the,
the Torah and the, and the the 

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other ancient Near Eastern law 
collections to show how 

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remarkably different they are in
their, in their heartbeat. 

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You know, in, in their, their 
tenor and how they view persons 

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and so forth. 
So for example, in in in 

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Deuteronomy chapter 4, you know,
the there is this impulse for 

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the Israelites to to show their 
own distinctiveness so that the 

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nations around them will say, 
surely this great nation is a 

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wise and understanding people. 
This is what the Lord wants the 

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outside observers to see about 
Israel and and that they're and 

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so you see that as you explore 
more deeply, you see that behind

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that exhortation is actually a 
worldview of difference between 

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what we see in the Mosaic law 
and these other ancient near 

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Eastern collections. 
So for example, we could talk 

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about how the the dignity of 
persons is so strongly 

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highlighted in the Mosaic law, 
whereas in other ancient Near 

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Eastern law collections, instead
of having this fundamental 

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equality, all human beings made 
in the image of God, You have 

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these hierarchies that are that 
are created. 

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You have a hierarchical 
structure. 

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And you also have punishments 
that correspond to that 

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hierarchy, such that those 
people who are at the top of the

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hierarchy have a more diminished
punishment and those at the 

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bottom have more severe 
punishments. 

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So there is a kind of 
selectivity going on in terms of

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how you view human dignity and 
also how you view these 

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corresponding punishments that 
go along with it. 

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So there's as there's an 
intrinsic dignity in the Mosaic 

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Law, but there's a selective 
dignity in the in the other 

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nations law codes. 
We also have a certain 

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treatment. 
You know, how do you treat 

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foreigners, for example, those 
who are treated as, you know, 

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those who are outsiders in 
Israel, for example, or a 

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runaway slave who comes from 
another nation is allowed to 

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settle at any of Israel's 
cities. 

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But you don't have that same 
sort of regard for, for the for 

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the foreigner in other nations. 
You have a very strong emphasis,

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for example, on personhood in 
the law code of Moses. 

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But in, you know, there's a 
greater emphasis on things 

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property in other ancient Near 
Eastern law collections. 

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You also have, for example, 
what's unique in the ancient 

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Near East is the Sabbath law for
the people of Israel. 

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And there is no, no parallel, no
comparable law that gives people

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rest, both the native as well as
the foreigner in Israel. 

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So there is a, a great 
understanding of the need for 

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those rhythms for giving rest 
and refreshment to, to, to the 

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people and even to, to animals. 
There is a, there is a greater, 

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much stronger emphasis on in the
ancient Near East, on the 

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surrounding laws on the, on the 
kind of the rights of kings and,

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and a diminished sense of 
rightness or rights for for the 

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average citizen. 
We can talk about, you know, 

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concern for the poor, how there 
are provisions for the poor in 

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in Israel gleaning laws that 
you're not to charge interest. 

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But again, in the nations 
surrounding Israel, you don't 

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have those provisions like 
gleaning laws. 

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You don't have term limits of of
six years and then the 7th year 

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the contract is over. 
And then the person who's been 

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in servitude is free from debt 
and free to move about as before

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the indenture. 
You have you have, you know, all

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manner of concerns for the poor 
in Israel, but those things 

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cannot be said for the 
surrounding nations. 

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I keep going, but hopefully that
gives an idea of the the greater

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out of humanity that is shown in
the Mosaic law and how Israel is

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00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,880
to be informed by this very 
significant event, the exodus. 

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00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,280
And how because the Israelites 
were were, you know, were in 

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bondage as aliens in the land of
Egypt. 

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00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,280
The Lord is reminding them to 
look out for the orphan, the 

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00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,200
widow, the alien, because you 2 
are once aliens in the land of 

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Egypt. 
So that's that's, you know, 

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three dozen. 
Sometimes that exhortation is 

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given to the people of Israel in
the Mosaic Law. 

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00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,720
So there are some those are 
obvious ones where you see like,

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00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,840
wow, there's care for the orphan
and the widow and the stranger. 

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00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,800
But like, even even to put into 
context something like the Soto 

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laws, right, The woman who's 
accused of, of having an affair,

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it it when compared to like the 
trial by ordeal of like the 

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00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,920
Hammurabi's law where women are 
just thrown into a river to die 

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and then say, oh, if they 
survive by miracle, then then 

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you know she was innocent. 
Which of course, would never. 

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00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,960
Which would never happen, where 
this is a way of protecting a 

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00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,520
woman who is being accused, who 
you know, she this is a way for 

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00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,440
her to like just go home with 
your husband, everything. 

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00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,000
So you drink this potion and 
then, you know, like nothing 

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00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,280
happens, you go home. 
So I think like there, there's 

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little things like that that I 
think a lot of people don't 

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appreciate. 
There. 

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There is the embarrassment part,
though that that's not that's 

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00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,760
not trivial, of course. 
Not the whole but. 

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00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,040
She, but she's. 
I had a tough extent. 

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00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,000
I wouldn't go as like, I 
wouldn't say it like, oh, she 

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just did it and went home. 
Like it's a there, there's a, 

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there's an ordeal there, but, 
but yeah. 

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I mean, her head, her head is 
covered. 

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00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,400
So there's some level of of, you
know, protecting her identity. 

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00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,280
Also she they uncover her head 
when she comes into the 

258
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,200
ceremony. 
But anyway. 

259
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,080
Yeah. 
But but I would say, I would say

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this too, that there is kind of 
the reverse in, for example, 

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00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:38,240
Deuteronomy 25, where there is 
the Leverett Law where the if an

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00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,160
older brother dies, then the 
younger brother is to marry the 

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00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:47,840
widow in order to so that the 
name may not die out in Israel. 

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00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,440
But if a brother, a younger 
brother refuses to do so, then 

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00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,880
the then the woman, the 
brother's wife. 

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00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,040
It says, you know, Deuteronomy 
25 shall come to him in the 

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00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,880
sight of the elders, pull his 
sandal off his foot and spit in 

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00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,240
his face and shall declare this 
thus it is done to the man who 

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00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:05,839
does not build up his brother's 
house. 

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00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:10,720
So you do see the, the, the 
woman on the, on the other side 

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00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,280
of that, that, that there is an 
empowerment for her as well, you

272
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,000
know, And again, there is a kind
of empowerment for the woman 

273
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,520
too, in that in Numbers 5, where
there is the, where there is 

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00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,680
the, the, the, the trial that 
she goes through. 

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00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,400
But but again, as, as was 
mentioned, if she is innocent of

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00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,040
any adultery, then there is no 
consequence to her. 

277
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,560
It is a she doesn't have to fear
it. 

278
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,920
There may be a being put on the 
spot but but it becomes clear 

279
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,320
that the the husband's 
accusations were false and she 

280
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,520
is vindicated and could hold her
held head high. 

281
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,680
Yeah, absolutely. 
And I, and I think that the 

282
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,600
greater point that you're making
is, and we'll get into 

283
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,640
specifics, you know, difficult 
passages and difficult, 

284
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,840
difficult areas in the Bible. 
But I, I, I think what you're 

285
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,520
trying to say is that when you 
look at the, at the, at the 

286
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,840
Torahs as a whole, right. 
There is a lot of room to say 

287
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,520
that, that the Torah, that the 
Torah should be given a 

288
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,640
charitable approach because the 
track record of almost the 

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00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,280
entire book is trying to build a
moral society. 

290
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:29,760
And it is starkly different from
all other books that were, that 

291
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,440
were in existence. 
And we should, we should take 

292
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,000
that into consideration instead 
of just projecting, you know, 

293
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,560
today's modern values and 
assuming it onto the Bible 

294
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,440
without critical thinking, 
especially when you see on the 

295
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,720
larger whole that the Torah is, 
is, is it takes morality very 

296
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,120
seriously. 
Yes, and, and one of the things 

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00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:57,560
that you see repeatedly in the 
Torah is the great concern for 

298
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,400
those who could easily be taken 
advantage of, those who are 

299
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,120
margin easily be marginalized, 
the vulnerable. 

300
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,400
And again, that triad of the 
orphan, the widow, the alien, 

301
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,760
the ones who can most easily be 
taken advantage of in, in 

302
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,440
society, those are the ones here
to look out for the most. 

303
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,080
So, so it sounds though, there's
some sort of a justification for

304
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,360
oppression. 
Oh, this person's a foreigner. 

305
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,560
We can do what we want. 
We can be severe with that 

306
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,960
person. 
No, there is this, you know, you

307
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,600
remember your origins. 
You remember that you were once 

308
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,840
oppressed in the land of Egypt. 
Right. 

309
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,360
And we also, we also, you know, 
don't even pay attention to 

310
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,440
this, but honoring parents in 
the ancient world, you know, 

311
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,120
especially the way we understand
the honoring of father and 

312
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:45,000
mother is also responsible for 
for them as they get old and 

313
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,360
taking care of them. 
That that is something that was 

314
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,160
unnatural to the ancient world 
when, when they become a burden 

315
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,560
on you. 
And also children. 

316
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,720
I think the the story of, of 
the, you know, the al Qaeda, 

317
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,000
the, the whole, the whole 
Abraham and Isaac. 

318
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,960
Yeah, Abraham and Isaac, that 
whole story is really like an 

319
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,640
amazing statement in the ancient
world where children were 

320
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,840
property and, you know, people 
would sacrifice their children 

321
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,240
to the gods, and that was like, 
normal. 

322
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,080
And we, we take it for granted 
because we're just reading this 

323
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,360
all the time and we're just 
like, OK, it's a very strange 

324
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:21,840
story. 
Why is he want to sacrifice his 

325
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,360
son? 
But I think the Torah is making 

326
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:26,120
a very strong statement there 
that we don't own our children. 

327
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,160
Yeah, yeah. 
And not to mention that the the 

328
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,200
the gods of the nations 
surrounding Israel are engaged 

329
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,360
in all sorts of immoral, 
grotesque practices, you know, 

330
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:42,200
bestiality, rape, incest, and so
forth. 

331
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,440
And those are the very practices
that the Israelites are told to 

332
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:51,600
avoid, to stay away from. 
So they remain set apart as the 

333
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,840
people of God. 
Yes. 

334
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,000
And, and one thing now that you 
mentioned the set apart that 

335
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,960
Kedusha is often mistranslated 
as holiness, but it really means

336
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,800
to sanctify, right? 
We sanctify the Sabbath from the

337
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,160
other days. 
We, we were sanctified from 

338
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:13,360
other nations, not because we're
better, but because we, we make 

339
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,040
distinctions between things, 
right? 

340
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,840
We, we have to distinguish 
between the realm of God and the

341
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,000
realm of man. 
And making distinctions is is a 

342
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,200
very, very important part of of 
growth understanding, you know, 

343
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,320
where we are in the world and 
where, where we're supposed to 

344
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,560
go. 
So I think that that is one of 

345
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,560
the important points. 
So Bentley, if you'd like to 

346
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,280
take the next question. 
Absolutely. 

347
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,160
OK, so one of the most common 
critiques levelled at the Torah 

348
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,720
is that it seems to depict a God
who endorses genocide, such as 

349
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,520
with the Canaanites and the 
Amalekites, or the killing of 

350
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,720
the Egyptian first borns during 
the 10th plague. 

351
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,320
Scholars like Doctor William 
Lane Craig take a literalist 

352
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,160
view and focus on justifying 
these events as God, condemning 

353
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,960
the evil of these groups. 
And given the horrific actions 

354
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,480
of terrorist groups like Hamas 
today, it's hard to entirely 

355
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,400
dismiss this line of reasoning. 
Whoever, what I appreciate about

356
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,080
what I appreciate about your 
approach is the attention to 

357
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,080
context, including the Torah's 
use of hyperbole. 

358
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:19,160
One example that stands out is 
King Shahul's command to wipe 

359
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,360
out all of Amalek. 
Yet just a few chapters later, 

360
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,160
we find David's camp being 
raided by Amalekites, and 

361
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,200
centuries later, Haman, a 
descendant of Amalek, emerges as

362
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,360
an enemy of the Jews in Persia. 
Could you provide further 

363
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:37,000
insights into this, perhaps 
highlighting other examples 

364
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,400
where the Torah uses exaggerated
or poetic language? 

365
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,080
Additionally, how should we 
understand why God would commend

366
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:47,520
any kind of collect collective 
punishment in the first place? 

367
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,560
All right, well, there's a tall 
order. 

368
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,280
Let's try to take things one at 
a time here. 

369
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,920
And so so yes, I, you know, I 
have a of course, high regard 

370
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:04,400
for William Lane Craig, my, my 
mentor in in so many ways. 

371
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:11,000
And you know, he does hold the, 
the line on the on basically 

372
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:17,160
this being a unique instance of 
genocide that it is commanded by

373
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,640
God, that there is that God is 
morally justified in issuing 

374
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,720
this command. 
And I would say that as I read 

375
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,480
this passage from First Samuel 
15 and other passages saying, 

376
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,160
Joshua, I just don't see this 
happening. 

377
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:41,280
I see basically a war of between
combatant armies. 

378
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,520
It's not, you know, even when 
you have say, man, woman, young 

379
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,400
and old, these are typically 
scenarios where you're not going

380
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,760
to have elderly people, women 
and children hanging around. 

381
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,880
So let me just say the something
about the First Samuel 15 for 

382
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,240
starters, and then we can work 
our way around some of these 

383
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,960
other texts. 
So in first Samuel 14, we see 

384
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,920
that the in verse 48, the the 
Amalekites have raided the the 

385
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:16,240
Israelites territory. 
And so the Lord says to to 

386
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,960
Samuel to you know, to you know,
you know, he tells him to tell 

387
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,320
Saul to to quote, you know, 
Haram. 

388
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,240
However, let's be translated 
often translated utterly 

389
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,760
destroy. 
But you know, the, you know, 

390
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,080
man, woman, young and old of the
Amalekites. 

391
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,280
And so as we read this, there 
are a few things that are 

392
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,680
happening. 
First of all, there is a pitched

393
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,520
battle mentioned in verse 5 at a
city of Amalek. 

394
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:51,280
So at the city of Amalek, you 
have the Kenites who are also 

395
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,000
there. 
And so Saul sends word to the 

396
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,240
Kenites because they're friendly
with the Israelites and he 

397
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,040
doesn't have any problem with 
them. 

398
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,320
They're not the opponent, 
they're not the enemy. 

399
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,400
The Amalekites are. 
And so he sends word and says 

400
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,000
we're going to fight against the
Amalekites. 

401
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,040
So the Kenites end up going 
away. 

402
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,920
And so the battle takes place 
between Israel and and the 

403
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,000
Amalekites. 
So if the Kenites are leaving, 

404
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,960
knowing that there's a battle to
be fought, certainly they're not

405
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,600
going to be women and children 
hanging around this encampment. 

406
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,760
They're going to be the first 
ones to go. 

407
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:30,040
In fact, now they, they go on 
from there to, you know, the the

408
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:35,080
text says not just Saul, but the
narrator also tells us that 

409
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,080
after the battle, it says Saul 
utterly destroyed, you know, 

410
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,800
again, Haram utterly destroyed 
the Amalekites. 

411
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:46,360
Now, as I point out in my book, 
is God of vindictive bully. 

412
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:53,160
Sometimes the sometimes the word
Haram simply means something 

413
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,120
like exile without any kind of 
genocide or obliteration. 

414
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,480
Sometimes it can just simply 
mean a decisive victory, but 

415
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,960
we're not told about any of the 
results and we can come back to 

416
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,240
Joshua later. 
But but basically it it does not

417
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,960
at all. 
It doesn't have that loaded 

418
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,400
indication of annihilation as 
some people assume. 

419
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,120
There's some, you know, a number
of scholars who say that Haram 

420
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,560
sometimes rendered utterly 
destroy is actually a 

421
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,320
mistranslation. 
And then there's more to to it 

422
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,120
that I can go into. 
But but, but, but even as you 

423
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:33,760
compare, as you look at the text
itself and compare other 

424
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,880
passages in the context and the 
same book, for example, you see 

425
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,360
that that is not going on at 
all. 

426
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:42,600
There is no genocide. 
There has not been literal utter

427
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,040
destruction. 
So as as was mentioned, we see 

428
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,000
later on in the what we see 
later on in the book of First 

429
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,000
Samuel that David is fighting 
against the Amalekites and the 

430
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,920
Malachite army. 400 of them end 
up fleeing on camels. 

431
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,320
It seems like they're Amalekites
all over the place as you read 

432
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,920
chapters 27 and 30 of First 
Samuel. 

433
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,440
And there's a there's a common 
rhetorical device that that is 

434
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,160
used to emphasize this 
exaggeration where you have in a

435
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,320
lot of ancient Eurasian war 
texts mentioned of a particular 

436
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:21,000
pitched battle, which we do have
in First Samuel 15, five, the 

437
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,400
city of Amalek. 
And then there is a picture of 

438
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,560
universal conquest after that. 
So, so Saul is fighting the 

439
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,520
Amalekites after this battle in,
you know, it says he's fighting 

440
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,000
them from Arabia to Egypt again,
a vast territory. 

441
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,080
And that is a common feature in 
ancient Near Eastern war texts 

442
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,200
where you have a localized 
battle and then this this kind 

443
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,840
of universal conquest motif. 
The same thing happens with 

444
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,840
David. 
He has a pitched battle and then

445
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,440
he fights the Amalekites again 
in that same basic terrain. 

446
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,920
You also. 
So again, we don't have at all 

447
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,960
any kind of genocide here. 
As we look at the cities of of 

448
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,680
of Joshua, we go back there and 
say, you know, the term Haram is

449
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,720
used and it says we left no 
survivor, man, woman, young and 

450
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,120
old. 
That same sort of language is 

451
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:17,160
being used. 
But we know from archaeology, 

452
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,920
from a number of indicators that
these cities that are, are 

453
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,840
mentioned in the book of Joshua 
are actually military 

454
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,160
installations or administrative 
centers. 

455
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,920
They aren't places of that, 
that, that house general, you 

456
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,480
know, civilian populations. 
And, and so the, the argument 

457
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,000
that these are just, you know, 
these people are these cities 

458
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,160
are teeming with civilians just 
is not the case. 

459
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,760
And so I, I, I make that 
argument in, in, in both of my 

460
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,800
books, moral monster and 
vindictive bully. 

461
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,040
But but it's interesting that 
even as you so when you see 

462
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,080
there were no survivors, you see
often those survive that there 

463
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,800
are survivors just a chapter or 
two later. 

464
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,320
So even though it uses that 
sweeping language which is 

465
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,800
common in ancient Near Eastern 
war texts, what the ancient 

466
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,680
other ancient Asian war texts 
don't say is that there were 

467
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,040
survivors. 
But the book of Joshua does 

468
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,400
mention abundant survivors. 
In fact, you get to Judges 

469
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,600
chapter one. 
We read repeatedly that the 

470
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,920
Israelites could not drive them 
out. 

471
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,960
They could not drive them out. 
They could not drive them out. 

472
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,400
So, so we have very clear 
indications that there's a lot 

473
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,160
more going on here. 
And it is not a genocidal sort 

474
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,560
of a thing. 
It basically is a matter of 

475
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,400
combatant armies fighting 
against one another. 

476
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,760
And I, I use this, I, I, I 
mentioned this in my vindictive 

477
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,840
bully book where I talk about 
the, the battle of, you know, 

478
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,880
Sihan and Ogg in, in numbers 21.
Well, in that battle, it's 

479
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,800
clearly combatant. 
We see the people fleeing the 

480
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,800
villages. 
And then there is this battle 

481
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,920
between two combatant armies. 
And we're told that the king, 

482
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,440
his sons and his army are 
fighting against, they're going 

483
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,240
out to fight against the 
Israelites. 

484
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,280
And then they also have to go 
between the, the, the, you know,

485
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,400
the, the two rivers in, in Moab,
the, the, the Arnon and the 

486
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,320
Jabok rivers that they are 
there. 

487
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,000
So a 20 mile hike, you know, 
that they have this all night 

488
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,120
hike that they're going from one
place to another, carrying their

489
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,640
gear and everything. 
Certainly that you're not going 

490
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,560
to have women and children on 
this, on this military March. 

491
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,320
But Deuteronomy 2 and 3 recounts
this battle from Numbers 21. 

492
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,120
And keep in mind that 
Deuteronomy intensifies the 

493
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,600
rhetoric that is found. 
That is a more tame language, as

494
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,760
it were in say, Exodus and 
Numbers. 

495
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,320
But it says in Numbers two and 
three that that these two kings,

496
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:46,200
it says that that man, woman, 
young and old were obliterated, 

497
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,760
that they were, quote, utterly 
destroyed. 

498
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,960
But we know that women and 
children were not around because

499
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,240
it's just basically between two 
combatant armies, the Israelites

500
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,040
and these Amorite kings were 
fighting against, against 

501
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,560
Israel. 
So it, it has that sense of 

502
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,080
exaggeration, hyperbole, 
rhetoric. 

503
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,400
But when you look more closely 
at the, the battle scene that 

504
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,240
took actually took place, it, it
does not have those, those, 

505
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,760
those civilians included in 
that, in that battle scene. 

506
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,840
So those are a few examples I 
could go into into more details 

507
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,240
here, but but that's something 
that I think is important to to 

508
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,080
note. 
So with the Canaanites, with the

509
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,200
with the Amalekites, I do talk 
about the the first born of 

510
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,000
Egypt. 
I can I can discuss that if 

511
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,400
you'd like, but. 
Well, I actually want to just 

512
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,560
add to that, you know, in the 
modern times, we say even like 

513
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,000
in sports, you know, like we wet
the floor with them or we, you 

514
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,520
know, we use this kind of 
language and it's understood in 

515
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,240
the context of like where where 
we live and when we live. 

516
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,600
And if somebody, you know, just,
I've heard that 1000 years from 

517
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,240
now, that'd be like, what, what 
does that even mean? 

518
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,600
I'm so hungry I can eat a cow. 
You know, these are things that 

519
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,440
when we talk and the Torah does 
this, we see it even in like the

520
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,360
God destroying the Pharaoh's 
army with a mighty hand and an 

521
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,920
outstretched arm, which is also,
you know, kind of like a 

522
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:11,560
appropriating a phrase from the,
the battle of Kadesh of, of 

523
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,960
Ramses. 
So, so, so the Torah uses this 

524
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,120
kind of and, and in other 
places, you know, like the most 

525
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,920
famous one, I think is where the
Torah says, you know, there, 

526
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,520
there are cities that reach the 
heavens or there there are, you 

527
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,640
know, that God took us out of 
Egypt on the wings of eagles. 

528
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,960
So the language being poetic or 
or hyperbolic is is very common.

529
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,800
Exactly right. 
Yeah. 

530
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,320
And it's so, so keeping keeping 
that intensification in mind and

531
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,360
knowing that this is this fits 
squarely within the ancient Near

532
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,080
Eastern rhetoric. 
You mentioned Kadesh, There are 

533
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,200
other battles that the Pharaohs 
have against sea peoples or the 

534
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,760
the armies of Mitani north of 
what is modern day Iraq and so 

535
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,280
forth that they're saying, you 
know, that we slew, you know, 

536
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,280
the Pharaohs slew, you know, he,
he destroyed millions, only he 

537
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,480
was left. 
And and you know, or even this 

538
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,600
battle against the Sea Peoples, 
Ramses the Third basically said 

539
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,680
that, you know, it is fight 
against the Philistines and 

540
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,180
other sea peoples, that they 
basically were rendered non 

541
00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:16,600
existent. 
Well, as it turns out, the the 

542
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,240
Sea peoples, the Philistines 
would actually come and colonize

543
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,360
the eastern part of Egypt. 
So, so there's great 

544
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,120
exaggeration on the part of 
Ramses the Third talking about 

545
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,080
his great, great, great victory,
but he overextended himself and 

546
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,840
became vulnerable to the Sea 
Peoples who would later colonize

547
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,400
eastern Egypt. 
So So yeah, you do have that 

548
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,760
that remarkable, you know, that 
that type of genre that we need 

549
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,440
to understand. 
And if you understand that kind 

550
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,920
of a setting, these other texts 
from Joshua and First Samuel and

551
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,560
so forth make a lot more sense 
and and you understand that that

552
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,320
there is indeed a lot of 
hyperbole. 

553
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,680
Don't we, don't we have an 
inscription, the Merneptus? 

554
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,280
I'm, I'm not so great with this 
stuff, but there is one that we 

555
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,680
have an inscription that says 
Israel is laid to waste and no 

556
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:08,760
more, right? 
Right. 

557
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:09,920
Yeah, exactly. 
Yeah. 

558
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:10,719
So his. 
Yeah. 

559
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,440
So, yeah. 
We have clearly. 

560
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,600
Yeah, exactly. 
You're, you're, you have, you 

561
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,000
know, King Misha saying that, 
you know, that that basically 

562
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,440
Israel is no more. 
And of course he was speaking 

563
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,080
prematurely by 100 years. 
The Assyrians would come into 

564
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,239
the northern part of, you know, 
the northern Kingdom of Israel 

565
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,960
and would basically do that what
what King Misha was boasting 

566
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,920
about. 
This this was a language that 

567
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,199
was that was used to express 
total victory. 

568
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,520
It's from what I'm. 
Right, exactly right. 

569
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,800
Yeah, so. 
Basically decisive victory is 

570
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,080
another, you know, is basically 
the way to render, at least in, 

571
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,760
in a lot of contexts, what Haram
is. 

572
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,400
So yeah. 
And we, we, we also, one of our 

573
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,200
earliest guests we had is Doctor
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman, who 

574
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,440
actually. 
Yeah. 

575
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,960
So so he he also writes about 
like numbers, numbers being used

576
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,960
as symbols in the ancient world.
And the numbers mentioned in the

577
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,360
Bible are often not meant to be 
taken literally there. 

578
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,200
So. 
So there are so many things, you

579
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,080
know, we we can keep digging 
into these things. 

580
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,440
But for the skeptic who is 
listening to this episode, like 

581
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,720
you said, we we need to be more 
careful and we need to be, you 

582
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:31,080
know, basically, you know, when 
we read the text, we have to 

583
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,800
understand that there's a lot 
more going on and we have to 

584
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,840
really appreciate the context. 
In Hebrew, the the word of the 

585
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,880
simple meaning of the reading 
the text is called the peshat, 

586
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:41,800
but it actually really means the
context. 

587
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,240
You have to understand the 
context. 

588
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,960
So actually we appreciate the 
fact that you read the Torah 

589
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,560
like, like a rabbi in a way, 
because your your analysis takes

590
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,520
into account all these other 
things that are going on, which 

591
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,560
is extremely important, 
understanding what's going on. 

592
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,320
Well, I appreciate the 
compliment. 

593
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,040
I I do want to take the text 
seriously. 

594
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,680
So, so I want to get into that 
topic of the first born son 

595
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,640
because obviously genocide, you 
know, we, we, we've, we've 

596
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,880
tackled that and punishment in 
general, a lot of people are 

597
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,840
uneasy about it. 
How can, how can God even be OK 

598
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,280
with wiping out the, the, the 
first born children of Egypt? 

599
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,560
Like how is that justified? 
So can you give us a little bit 

600
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,640
of a background on that? 
Sure. 

601
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,040
Well, of course, when we come 
into the book of Exodus, we see 

602
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:39,520
a great severity, indeed, evil 
treatment of the the Hebrew, the

603
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,560
Hebrew boys, yeah, that they are
to be drowned in the Nile River.

604
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,800
And and so, of course, is the 
context in which Moses is 

605
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:53,880
rescued, you know, and, and and 
brought into the household of 

606
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,200
Pharaoh's daughter and so forth.
And is, is trained in the 

607
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,760
learning of the Egyptians, et 
cetera. 

608
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,960
But you know, so, but the, the 
very outset, you have a Pharaoh 

609
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,520
who had doesn't remember Joseph.
You have an, an attack out of 

610
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:14,400
fear that the, that the, that 
the Hebrews are rising up and 

611
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,760
who knows, maybe they could 
overthrow the Egyptians. 

612
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,840
And so let's, let's take pre 
emptive action and get rid of 

613
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,920
the, the Hebrew baby boys as 
they're being born. 

614
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,840
And and that's so, so that's 
kind of phase one. 

615
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,720
Then you get to phase two where 
there is a, another Pharaoh who 

616
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:38,080
rises up who is himself nasty, 
that when people talk about 

617
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,120
God's hardening Pharaoh's heart,
we cease. 

618
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,280
I mean, that's just kind of a, 
you know, kind of an add on. 

619
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,600
We already see a very hardened 
heart in Pharaoh from the very 

620
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,600
beginning. 
And so that's just kind of an, 

621
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,000
an additional kind of an, 
another layer of hardening that 

622
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,880
we see going on. 
But this, this Pharaoh is cruel,

623
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,240
he is oppressive. 
And so the Lord sends Moses into

624
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,840
the setting. 
And keep in mind the language 

625
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,480
that takes place in, for 
example, in Exodus chapter 4, 

626
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:13,840
where where Israel is God's 
first born that that the that 

627
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,160
the Pharaohs have been 
mistreating, say the Hebrew 

628
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:17,920
boys. 
They've been trying to have them

629
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,400
wanted to put them to death in 
in chat. 

630
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,400
In the 1st chapter of Exodus, we
see that the Lord is telling 

631
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,960
Pharaoh that he is to have show 
regard for the Lord's first 

632
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,680
born, namely the people of 
Israel. 

633
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,640
And so if he is going to 
mistreat the Lord's first born, 

634
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,640
then there will be again, 
there's that language of God's 

635
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,800
rendering to everyone according 
to his deeds, that there is this

636
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:50,240
language of proportionality. 
Just as you have done to these 

637
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:52,560
people, so it will be done to 
you. 

638
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,040
Either one it's it's called MIDA
connected MIDA. 

639
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,160
Right, right. 
Measure for measure. 

640
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,640
Yep, exactly right. 
You know, the, you know, kind of

641
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,520
the the eye for an eye sort of 
principle, the lex talionis that

642
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,720
that this is a this is a 
basically some people see that 

643
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:13,280
as quote barbaric, but it's 
simply usually that, yeah, it's 

644
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,720
basically a monetary payment 
that takes place unless there is

645
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:18,440
murder and then it's life for 
life. 

646
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,800
But basically it is a 
proportional judgement that is 

647
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,120
to be rendered. 
And so God is doing that. 

648
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,480
We see that the and, and there's
plenty of warning leading up to 

649
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:36,880
that first born of Egypt plague 
where God is basically giving 

650
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:42,680
opportunity to relent and, and 
not to come to this last resort 

651
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,240
plague where in a course it does
turn out that Pharaoh, you know,

652
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,800
finally let's the the people of 
Israel go. 

653
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,960
But it is, and keep in mind too,
that the, it's not as though 

654
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,240
it's just Pharaoh who's been 
involved, but it's, it's an 

655
00:39:56,240 --> 00:40:00,640
entire, it's a widespread system
of oppression against the 

656
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,400
Israelites and, and other and 
other peoples who are also doing

657
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,440
work in, in, in, in Egypt. 
But the, but there is this 

658
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,520
hostility, there is this 
hierarchy of a power structure 

659
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,920
that is oppressing the people of
Israel. 

660
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,720
And so, so there is a, there is 
widespread guilt that comes 

661
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:21,680
along with this too. 
Let's not forget. 

662
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,160
So, so that is part of the, the 
part of the ethos here that that

663
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,920
God is, if you're going to, if 
you're going to bring harm to 

664
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,440
the first born, my first born, 
then God is going to bring harm 

665
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,880
to the first born of Egypt, 
unless, of course, they take 

666
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,280
measures to, to protect 
themselves from, from the 

667
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,840
destroyer, from the Angel of 
death. 

668
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,320
So that is the kind of context 
that we're speaking it that the 

669
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,600
scriptures are speaking into. 
And, and, and I think that, you 

670
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,160
know, we, we may say, oh, that 
the, the first born of Egypt, 

671
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,320
that's a terrible thing. 
But keep in mind what was being 

672
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,320
done to the, to God's first born
in the 1st place. 

673
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,920
So we we need to understand that
kind of a setting of that 

674
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,400
language of the first born 
before we come to that 10th 

675
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,720
plague. 
Right, like they, they made 

676
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:08,240
their bed and now they're 
sleeping in it. 

677
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,840
But, but, but you know, the 
interesting thing for just our 

678
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,960
listeners, you mentioned the, 
the hardening or in, in Hebrew 

679
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,360
also covet has used the the 
heaviness of the heart is 

680
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,120
actually a call to what the 
Pharaohs would do when it when a

681
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,920
previous Pharaoh would die, they
would put his heart on a scale 

682
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:28,240
and measure it with A and put it
on the other side of the scale. 

683
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:31,080
They would put a feather on. 
And if the heart was heavier, 

684
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,880
then it would mean that that 
that Pharaoh was evil. 

685
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,200
This is a way of the new Pharaoh
saying like, I'm not going to be

686
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,520
like that previous Pharaoh. 
So the the Torah is actually 

687
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,360
making a poetic statement by 
saying that that that you want 

688
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,800
to know how evil is. 
This is the heaviness of the 

689
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,040
heart that they're it's calling 
to that to that practice that 

690
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,600
was done. 
Another thing is regarding what 

691
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,720
you mentioned with with the 
first born the the fighting 

692
00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:01,120
against the the 10 plagues are 
actually repudiation of or 

693
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,360
polemic against the ancient 
Egyptian gods. 

694
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,920
So the Nile, the gods, the Nile 
was used as the the deity that 

695
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,200
that consumed the Jewish, you 
know, the Israelite children and

696
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,880
and killed them. 
And also the second plague, 

697
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,200
which was frog, which is the God
Hecat, which is the fertility 

698
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,120
goddess in Egypt. 
The the frog head and the and 

699
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,720
the human body. 
So this is like the the the 1st 

700
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,840
2 plagues are basically media 
connected media. 

701
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,920
It's it's a measure for measure 
against trying to stop the 

702
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,320
Israelites from procreating and 
from from growing their 

703
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:34,960
population. 
Right, yeah. 

704
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,920
And in fact, Exodus 12/12 
reminds us that these plagues 

705
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,680
are directed, you know, kind of 
a couture statement that they're

706
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,840
directed against the the the 
deities of Egypt. 

707
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:48,040
And what's interesting about 
the, you know, the actions of, 

708
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,800
of God and the plagues is that 
they are directed against the, 

709
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,800
the superpower of the day that 
they, that this is the world's 

710
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,560
leading nation of that time. 
And here the people of Israel 

711
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,720
are, you know, the Israelites 
are enslaved in Egypt. 

712
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,120
And instead of, you know, it's, 
it's, it's it's kind of an 

713
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,040
interesting thing because the 
Lord, the God of those slaves, 

714
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,640
is the one who is bringing 
judgement upon this superpower. 

715
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,640
And it's not as though he needs 
some kind of home court 

716
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,760
advantage, you know, to fight on
his own turf. 

717
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,640
No, he is going on foreign turf 
and winning the battle against 

718
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,360
those deities there. 
Right. 

719
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,560
And, and one thing maybe that 
ties into this as well is so we 

720
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,200
have like that kind of 
punishment, we also have capital

721
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:45,080
punishment and we also have, you
know, punishment where in the 

722
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,160
story of the flood, you have, 
you know, the world or the 

723
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,120
irates of that, that region 
basically suffering a flood that

724
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,360
wipes out, you know, a large 
group of people. 

725
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,400
So how do we understand that in 
in context as well? 

726
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,240
Yeah, yeah. 
And I, I too, sounds like you're

727
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:04,960
taking the flood as something 
regional rather than global, 

728
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,280
which is my, my take as well 
that the, you know, the audits 

729
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,120
in, in that is, you know, that 
is covered as you even read in 

730
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:20,040
Chapter 11 that the, the whole 
land audits spoke one language 

731
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:21,920
and then it says it moved 
eastward. 

732
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,000
So if it's the whole globe, 
it's, it would be strange for 

733
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,440
everyone to move eastward. 
But if it's a, a region that is,

734
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,000
that is describable, say, moving
east of the land of Canaan 

735
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,760
towards, you know, toward, say, 
Babylon, Shinar and so on, then 

736
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,080
then that makes a lot more 
sense. 

737
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,480
So they go and build that tower 
of, you know, of, of Babel. 

738
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:48,240
And then and so you have a 
picture of this flood then that 

739
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,640
impacts humanity. 
But what is interesting is that 

740
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:57,040
the, that the God is simply 
finishing the job that human 

741
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,760
beings have begun. 
It is God is he is pained in 

742
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,360
doing this. 
It grieves him. 

743
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,400
This is something that is done 
with reluctance, with a heavy 

744
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,040
heart that God brings judgment 
upon upon the people. 

745
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:16,040
But but basically human beings 
have already done most of the 

746
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,640
damage. 
And basically God is saying, I'm

747
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,760
going to start over. 
It's not as though God abandons 

748
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,760
humanity. 
God is going to start to 

749
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,040
rebuild. 
And so we have the language in, 

750
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,920
in Genesis 6 through 9 of a 
recreation of, you know, the 

751
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,240
mention in Chapter 9 of the, of 
the, you know, the, the image of

752
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:37,960
God of being fruitful and 
multiplying and so forth. 

753
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:43,520
But also giving human beings the
capacity, the power, the 

754
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,680
authority to when they shed 
blood, that their, that their 

755
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,720
blood should be shed because 
they're taking the lives of 

756
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:52,360
those who are made in the image 
of God. 

757
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,920
And so there is this kind of a 
governing role that, that human 

758
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:02,240
beings are to have and to, to 
keep the violence at Bay and to 

759
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:06,920
and to protect those who are 
being who, who others would want

760
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,560
to harm as, as God's image 
bearers. 

761
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:15,360
So, so you have that kind of a 
rebuilding of, of, of, of the 

762
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,040
creation and that God is also 
setting out certain measures and

763
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:24,040
also making promises about this 
kind of a, you know, catastrophe

764
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:27,320
not happening again. 
So, so, yeah, there is a lot 

765
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,680
more that can be said in terms 
of the theology of the, of the 

766
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,840
flood of what is going on there.
A lot of important theological 

767
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,680
principles that could be 
unpacked. 

768
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,760
But but yeah, that's, that's 
basically where I don't know. 

769
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,160
I'll just maybe leave it there 
for my comments. 

770
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,480
Yeah, so I, if I can add to 
that, the if we understand the 

771
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,600
Torah in the context of the 
ancient world, there was this 

772
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:57,960
idea of a flood was was well 
known in in other previous store

773
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,120
epics like the Epic of 
Gilgamesh, the Atrahasis. 

774
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,520
These are these are describing 
similar. 

775
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,440
So something did happen, right? 
There was some kind of flood 

776
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,520
that did happen. 
But I think what we have to take

777
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,800
out of this is what is the 
Torah's message of what is the 

778
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,920
lesson the Torah's trying to 
teach us? 

779
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,320
And it's actually veers 
completely away from where the 

780
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,640
ancients understood the story, 
whereas where the Torah actually

781
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,480
says that, you know, God created
everything Ketova and it was 

782
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,960
very good, right? 
But but when it came to creating

783
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,440
man, man chooses between good 
and evil, right? 

784
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,320
It puts the onus on man, not on 
the gods or not on God. 

785
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,080
Where And then at least the, the
culmination of, of this whole 

786
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,320
story was that, you know, there 
was the word is Hamas, but there

787
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,480
was violence among, you know, 
the people who were, who were 

788
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,920
they were doing it was anarchy. 
They were doing whatever they 

789
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,480
wanted to each other. 
And you said they, they did it 

790
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,440
to each other. 
God is just kind of finishing 

791
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,000
what they started. 
And there was regret. 

792
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,080
The Torah mentions that he had 
regret. 

793
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,360
So, so clearly we, we have to 
see, I think this the character 

794
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:04,440
of Noah as somebody who, you 
know, he is, he is somebody 

795
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,680
who's reflecting after what 
happened as kind of like a 

796
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,320
missed opportunity. 
He he starts to drink because 

797
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,560
you realize maybe he could have 
helped some people. 

798
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,640
This isn't at least in the 
Jewish tradition that he could 

799
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,520
have helped and he could have 
tried to save others. 

800
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,880
And later on we're introduced to
Abraham, who's kind of look 

801
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,400
correcting that, that part, that
that characteristic. 

802
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:29,080
OK, so we're going to go to the 
next question, which is the 

803
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:36,440
institution of slavery, which is
universally condemned as morally

804
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,800
abhorrent. 
And that's something we all 

805
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,720
agree on. 
How then do we make sense of the

806
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:46,160
Bible condoning both Israelite 
and non Israelite slavery? 

807
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,560
It's important to distinguish 
between the chattel slavery 

808
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,000
practice by the American South 
and the slavery described in the

809
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,360
Torah, which was not permanent 
and dehumanizing in the same 

810
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,120
way. 
So can you give us some context 

811
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,680
on how the Bible's teaching on 
this topic were transformative 

812
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,520
for their time? 
After all, it was the influence 

813
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,080
of judeo-christian values that 
eventually led to the 

814
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,640
eradication of slavery in the 
modern world. 

815
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,880
And while we're on the subject, 
how should we interpret the 

816
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,360
Bible treatment of women, 
particularly in areas of 

817
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:23,040
marriage, divorce and captivity?
Yeah, OK, Let's tackle the 

818
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,720
matter of servitude. 
And I, I speak of servitude. 

819
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:31,280
I, I don't use the term slavery 
because that language, even 

820
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,800
though a lot of modern 
translations use it, even though

821
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,400
older ones don't use that term 
slavery. 

822
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,720
Even, you know, whether it's 
English, like the King James 

823
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:42,000
Version only has the term slave 
once. 

824
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,200
And that's not even in the 
Hebrew text, but it's but, but 

825
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,880
other, you know, like German 
and, and Dutch and Spanish and 

826
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,200
so forth that the older 
renderings don't have the, the 

827
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,480
heavier kind of, you know, kind 
of emotionally laden slave 

828
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,880
language. 
But that's, that's really kind 

829
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,640
of strange with all that's taken
place in terms of modern 

830
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,160
slavery, that they would bring 
this into modern translations 

831
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,600
and, and I think mislead many 
people into thinking, oh, it's 

832
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,640
we're just basically revisiting 
modern slave just by going 

833
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,120
backward in time. 
And So what I try to do is 

834
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,440
highlight that the term 
servitude is something that 

835
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,200
doesn't rig the conversation. 
So you look at a, it's sort of 

836
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,840
like using the term king. 
You, you don't just go ahead and

837
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,120
somebody may be a puppet king, 
but you don't go ahead and 

838
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,080
translate that as puppet king. 
You just leave it as king and 

839
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:42,600
you let the context to shape how
that king is to be understood in

840
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,600
the same way in terms of 
servitude, for example, you have

841
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,920
you have Moses, you have Joshua,
who are described as, you know, 

842
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,480
I mean, each of them is 
described as an Eben Adonai, the

843
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,920
servant of the Lord. 
And that this is an honorific 

844
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,080
title. 
And what we mean by servitude is

845
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,520
basically a kind of, you know, 
kind of a dynamic dependency 

846
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,480
relationship, and especially one
that in ancient Israel is 

847
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,680
shifting with the say, with the 
payment of, you know, when you 

848
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,040
pay off your debts, you are free
to go, you know, you're no 

849
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,800
longer an indentured servant. 
And and so there is a certain 

850
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,640
dynamism here, but it basically 
reflects a dependency 

851
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,360
relationship. 
And we use this kind of language

852
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,400
in our, you know, we have a kind
kind of, you know, you know, a 

853
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,240
transactional language in our 
own, with our own sports teams. 

854
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:39,640
Like we have owners, we have 
players that are bought, that 

855
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,960
they're traded and so forth. 
And that this is obviously not 

856
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,960
diminishing the humanity of 
these basketball or baseball 

857
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,360
players or whatever. 
It is simply using that kind of 

858
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,280
a transactional language. 
And in the same way we had that 

859
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,800
kind of transactional language 
that is used of both the 

860
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,680
Israelite servant as well as the
foreign servant. 

861
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:06,680
So for example, the, the, the, 
the Israelite servant is, you 

862
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:12,120
know, can be acquired kana just 
as you have, for example, in, in

863
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:16,160
Leviticus 25, the foreign 
servants who, who can be 

864
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,720
acquired kana. 
So the, the, the evidim, the 

865
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:26,280
Toshaveen those you know, the, 
the, the sorry, the sort of the,

866
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,720
you know, the gharim and the 
Toshaveen, the those who are 

867
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:33,320
sojourning, those who are, you 
know, who are, you know, 

868
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:38,360
dwelling among, you know amongst
you as as resident aliens, that,

869
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,440
that, that language is used 
later on in Chapter 25. 

870
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,560
These foreigners who can be 
acquired, they, that they, those

871
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,960
people can become persons of 
means. 

872
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,800
As you keep reading the chapter,
a lot of critics will stop at 

873
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,080
the end of being able to acquire
them and so forth. 

874
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:59,240
But keep reading those you know 
that person who is sojourning as

875
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:03,800
an alien is also may become a 
person of beings to the point 

876
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:10,600
that he may acquire Kana, an 
Israelite servant of his to work

877
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,840
for him. 
So so you have language of of 

878
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,280
prospering. 
If the foreigner in Israel 

879
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,600
prospers, then he can acquire an
Israelite just as the foreigner 

880
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,840
can be acquired, the the 
Israelite can be can prosper. 

881
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,720
At the end of Leviticus 25 S the
same sort of language is being 

882
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:34,440
used of both the foreigner as 
well as the Israelite. 

883
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:37,800
And there isn't a diminishing of
their humanity. 

884
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,480
So, so we can go in to talk 
about, you know, some people 

885
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,240
will, you know, we'll, we'll 
talk about certain treatments of

886
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:48,920
the say the Israelite serve the 
Hebrew servant. 

887
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:53,880
And in Exodus 21, where it says 
that you may, you know, you 

888
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,800
know, there are certain, you 
know, regulations regarding the 

889
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,280
Israelites. 
So if you if, if you, if you 

890
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,200
strike a servant, a Hebrew so 
that he dies. 

891
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,280
Well, it's interesting that this
the term that is used is 

892
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,920
typically used of capital 
punishment that he will be he 

893
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:18,520
should be avenged that this is 
basically affirms the dignity of

894
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:20,680
the of the of the, in this case,
the Hebrew servant. 

895
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,080
And so if he is struck so that 
he dies, then the one who struck

896
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:30,280
him, his quote, master or 
employer, his life is, you know,

897
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,840
is to be taken. 
Now, some people that the 

898
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:34,680
critics will sometimes say, 
well, look at what it's 

899
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:40,080
continues to say that if he 
survives a day or two, then then

900
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,240
this person is, you know, then 
then there is no that that there

901
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:46,000
is no death penalty or anything 
like that. 

902
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,560
And, and that this person 
basically it says, it goes on to

903
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:54,800
say some translations will say 
he is his property or he is his 

904
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,280
silver. 
Well, what is the context here? 

905
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,960
It's actually the context of 
accidental death and paying for 

906
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,200
medical fees. 
And so Harry Hoffner, the late 

907
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,760
Egyptologist at the University 
of Chicago, said that basically 

908
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,120
what we're talking about here is
that if you pay someones medical

909
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:16,400
fees, that this is a way of kind
of in a sense diminishing the 

910
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,480
severity of the punishment 
because you've taken the 

911
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,000
initiative to pay for the person
whom you've injured paying those

912
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,800
medical bills. 
And that same sort of a thing is

913
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,400
happening in the, you know, 
because that is the context of 

914
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,200
accidental injury. 
That that if you're paying for 

915
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,520
the, if you're using your silver
to pay for this medical fee, you

916
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,240
know, it's, it's not as though 
it says there's that rendering. 

917
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:41,800
It could, it says he, you know 
who, you know, the Hebrew word 

918
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,200
is, is his silver. 
Well, it could also be 

919
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,600
translated that that medical fee
is his silver. 

920
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,480
And so, so there's another way 
of rendering that rather than 

921
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:57,400
seeing the, the Hebrew servant 
as property, basically the 

922
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,400
medical fee is that silver that 
actually is to be figured in 

923
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,040
when the judge is rendering a 
verdict about, you know, the 

924
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,200
person who has struck the person
so that he doesn't die, you 

925
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,960
know, but for a day or two and 
then, and then he dies. 

926
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,520
So that is figured into the, 
into the broader judicial 

927
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,800
equation. 
So anyway, there are a number of

928
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,440
other texts that we could get 
into to talk about servitude. 

929
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,760
But, but I, but I think it's 
important to remember that 

930
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,280
servitude is basically what 
happens when you're impoverished

931
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,840
and you have no, no recourse. 
And so you quote sell yourself, 

932
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,560
whether you're a foreigner or 
you know, or you know, maybe you

933
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,960
might be acquired in, in, in 
warfare or something like that. 

934
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:41,240
But, but, but those who are 
quote acquired say within Israel

935
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:46,760
that, that there is a term limit
of six years and you cannot keep

936
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,360
that Israelite servant beyond 
six years. 

937
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,760
That that to, to keep him from 
getting out of or from even 

938
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,560
going into poverty or to 
servitude. 

939
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,560
In the 1st place, you have 
leaning laws, you have no 

940
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,920
interest loans and so forth. 
That there are provisions for 

941
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,840
the, for those who are for 
Israelites to keep themselves 

942
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,240
from having to sell themselves 
into servitude. 

943
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,640
You know, we also have various 
arrangements such as in, at the,

944
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,640
you know, in also in Exodus 21. 
That, that if there is a person 

945
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:23,720
who says, I love my master, my 
employer, then that person can 

946
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,080
through a, you know, through 
this piercing of his ear, 

947
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,600
through that ceremony, using the
all, that he then would become 

948
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,680
a, a permanent servant. 
But this would be voluntary. 

949
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,440
And so the the biblical scholar 
David Klein's said that if you 

950
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,600
had, you have these two laws, 
one that says about the foreign 

951
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,920
runaway slave, that if the 
foreign runaway slave comes to 

952
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,200
Israel, he could settle in any 
of Israel's cities. 

953
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,320
And so if, if it's if it, if a 
foreign servant is running away 

954
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,040
to get away from a harsh, 
oppressive master, how much more

955
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:02,360
would that apply within Israel? 
In fact, when we read about, for

956
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:09,480
example, when David's men go to,
to, to Nabal, you know, Nabal 

957
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:14,000
who is, you know, you know, 
Abigail's husband and they say 

958
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,760
we're David servants. 
And he said, who is David? 

959
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,120
Who are his servants? 
We've got people, we got 

960
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,280
servants running away from their
masters all the time. 

961
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:26,640
So that was a basically done in 
Israel that if you had had a 

962
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,400
tough time with someone who was 
your you to whom are your 

963
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,360
indentured servant, you could 
get out from under that 

964
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,160
oppression by virtue of runaway.
And so David Klein says that if 

965
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,680
you have the option of runaway 
or if you have the option of 

966
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,240
aligning yourself to, you know, 
belonging to the household of 

967
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,600
your employer, quote, master, he
said this basically undermines 

968
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:53,720
any kind of institutionalization
of slavery or servitude within 

969
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,080
in Israel because the there is 
free will that is involved. 

970
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,480
There is protection also for 
those who are being oppressed. 

971
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:04,080
In fact, there's a law, you 
know, that that's that's of 

972
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,640
course mentioned in Leviticus 
about tattooing. 

973
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,800
What is tattooing all about? 
Well, to have a tattoo, some 

974
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:16,280
people have associated that 
with, say, a foreign deity, You 

975
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,560
know, that perhaps you're 
tattooed because you belong to a

976
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,600
foreign deity, and so therefore 
you shouldn't do that. 

977
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,320
Or it could be sometimes 
associated with, you know, with 

978
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,240
cutting. 
Practice cutting, you know, you 

979
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,480
know, for the dead. 
But probably the most plausible 

980
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:36,240
interpretation of that is that 
it's related to being enslaved 

981
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:40,600
to another person, that you have
a tattoo because you belong to 

982
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:45,120
another person, but God is 
prohibiting that that you do not

983
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,800
belong to another person as that
person's property, that you are 

984
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,680
owned by someone else. 
No, that is prohibited in 

985
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,080
Israel. 
So that tattoo, which is a mark 

986
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,440
of ownership of another person, 
is being prohibited within 

987
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,120
Israel because that is not how 
you should treat people. 

988
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,400
No, Oh, sorry. 
Oh, I was going to mention the 

989
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,280
the two verses that you 
mentioned. 

990
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:09,760
I don't have the verses in front
of me. 

991
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:16,200
I'm, I'm in a hotel room. 
So but the one where if he, if, 

992
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:21,200
if he kills the mention servant,
then he gets killed and then if 

993
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,520
he injuries him, there's a, you 
know, the monetary pay payout. 

994
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,240
Yeah, right. 
So it's actually 20. 112 Exodus 

995
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,680
2112. 
Yeah. 2112 OK, so I actually was

996
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,840
during the portion of the week 
which fell on it, I was actually

997
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:35,600
doing that with my older 
daughter. 

998
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:39,360
I was going through the first is
and she caught me on that one 

999
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,800
because she was like, wait a 
minute, like, you know what I 

1000
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,320
mean? 
The the and I didn't I didn't I 

1001
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,600
didn't it was I was on the spot 
and I didn't really reflect on 

1002
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:49,560
it yet. 
So I really appreciate that you 

1003
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,080
said this. 
I'm I'm even asked her to listen

1004
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:58,360
to it. 
But as you were saying this, it 

1005
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:03,040
would be inconsistent and sort 
of illogical if. 

1006
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:08,480
Why wouldn't the use of Because 
he is your property used for the

1007
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,160
payout versus then not apply 
when you killed him, right? 

1008
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,160
Exactly right. 
Yeah, it, it, it's just, you 

1009
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,160
know, all of a sudden that 
doesn't apply and, you know, 

1010
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,920
you're put to death. 
If, if the, if the quintessence 

1011
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,560
of the whole idea here is that 
it's your, if that he is your 

1012
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,640
property, then logically 
speaking, and you, you know, 

1013
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,960
people, people, there's a lot of
opinions regarding, you know, 

1014
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,680
how to understand morality and, 
and the Bible. 

1015
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,680
But being illogical, usually 
there is a extremely consistent 

1016
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,680
logic, right? 
Internal internal logic within 

1017
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:47,800
the Bible is, is pretty much 
people can pretty much see that 

1018
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:52,080
there is a, an internal logic 
within within the Bible. 

1019
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:57,840
So for that logic of he's your 
property to not be applied when 

1020
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,000
he kills that invention servant 
makes no sense. 

1021
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,560
And that was that. 
That is what was coming to my 

1022
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:05,920
mind as you were going through 
the sequence. 

1023
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,160
And I appreciate you speaking 
about this because that's it's 

1024
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:09,760
very enlightening. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1025
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:11,840
Well, I appreciate your, yeah, 
your mentioning that, that 

1026
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,440
that's, yeah, very, very 
critical to, to keep that in 

1027
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:16,600
mind. 
So, yeah. 

1028
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:20,040
And and so the there, you know, 
obviously if the person strikes 

1029
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,000
him so that he dies, then he 
will be put to death. 

1030
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,080
There will be, you know, he'll 
be avenged. 

1031
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,400
Clearly the humanity of the 
Hebrew servant is, is is is is 

1032
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,400
very much in focus here. 
Absolutely. 

1033
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:32,600
There's human rights for sure. 
Exactly, Yeah. 

1034
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:38,400
OK, so I did want to touch on 
one thing regarding that because

1035
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:42,760
Alex O'Connor famous, I guess 
you can call it agnostic or, or 

1036
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:43,880
atheist. 
I don't know what he considers 

1037
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:48,800
himself, but he, he famously had
on William Lane Craig and, and 

1038
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,720
and Shapiro and others 
challenging the Bible. 

1039
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,520
And he, he, he poses this 
question. 

1040
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,400
Is that OK? 
Fine, we, we, there's all these 

1041
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,920
explanations for why, like you 
just mentioned, for why this is 

1042
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,240
an actual slavery. 
But why would why wouldn't God 

1043
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:07,200
just say no slavery at all? 
No servitude at all. 

1044
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,920
Yeah, well, yeah, I I would say,
well, if you're, if you're using

1045
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:19,720
the term slave in a way that 
connotes Southern antebellum 

1046
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:24,080
slavery, well, you know, you've 
already rigged the debate. 

1047
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,200
You've already kind of, you 
know, loaded the stack, the deck

1048
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:31,040
against the Scriptures. 
But if you understand this as 

1049
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,440
servitude, if you understand 
this as, say, indentured 

1050
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,440
servitude, I mean, this is, 
yeah, we, we did this say when, 

1051
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:43,160
when our, you know, forebears 
from Europe came to this 

1052
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:47,920
country, they would have to pay 
for their passage after they 

1053
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,320
came here. 
So they'd be indebted for, say, 

1054
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:53,880
7 years to pay the passage that 
they, you know, for their ship 

1055
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,600
to come from Europe to the New 
World. 

1056
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,480
And, you know, was that 
oppressive slavery? 

1057
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,680
No, that's just a, a way of 
taking care of your debts. 

1058
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,520
If you can't handle payment on 
the spot, well, you've got to 

1059
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,360
work overtime to pay off that 
debt. 

1060
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,800
And then you're free to go about
as an ordinary free citizen now 

1061
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,240
that your debt is paid. 
We have certain sorts of debts 

1062
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:20,200
that, that we enter into 
voluntarily through, you know, 

1063
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,720
serving in the army or something
like that, or maybe even having 

1064
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:27,280
a kind of a mundane job. 
There's nothing else to do 

1065
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,880
except maybe a, a, a tough 
grinding job that we have to do 

1066
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,160
something that's not tantamount 
to slavery. 

1067
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,720
They're just going to be some 
jobs that are harsh, that are 

1068
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,720
difficult, that we may not want 
to do, but that may be the only 

1069
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,800
way to, to earn our earn our, 
you know, our livelihood. 

1070
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,360
And so we, we, we go with it. 
But but when it comes to the, 

1071
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:51,280
you know, when it comes to this 
notion of, you know, that should

1072
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,320
have been banned all together, 
well, you know, we're not 

1073
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:56,560
living. 
You know, this is not a, a 

1074
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,480
society that has a say, a 
democracy, a welfare system, 

1075
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,280
Social Security and so forth. 
There's, you know, people can 

1076
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:05,680
fall through the cracks very 
easily. 

1077
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,440
And of course there's family and
so forth. 

1078
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,800
And we see a lot of dependency 
upon, say, those who are part of

1079
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,120
your clan to help keep you out 
of debt to to, you know, to 

1080
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:19,760
sense redeem you if you had to, 
you know, to to, you know, sell 

1081
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,160
yourself to to someone for a 
period of time that they can buy

1082
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:25,280
you out. 
But sometimes that isn't 

1083
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:27,760
possible. 
And So what do you do? 

1084
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:31,960
Well, in a sense, the the Mosaic
laws that were is doing the best

1085
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:36,000
it can with the kind of 
situation on the ground it it 

1086
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:41,200
just so we need to be careful 
about forcing a modern Western 

1087
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,200
viewpoint of things on an 
ancient Near Eastern culture 

1088
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,440
where these structures just 
simply were not in place. 

1089
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:50,360
And there's a kind of building 
that needs to be done, a kind of

1090
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:54,760
kind of a network, kind of a 
Social Security system that's 

1091
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,440
being built. 
But it certainly is far from 

1092
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,400
complete. 
It is not not a developed sort 

1093
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,040
of thing that we have say in in 
the modern world. 

1094
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:05,800
Absolutely. 
It's easy to to want to dispel 

1095
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:10,000
things, but was was there any 
capability of having anything 

1096
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:12,960
different really at that time? 
It's like you said, it's it's, 

1097
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:16,880
it's it's asking, it's asking 
for a for, for something that 

1098
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,760
might not it it's not something 
that the world was capable of to

1099
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,600
be able to contain at that. 
You know, today we live in a, in

1100
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,880
a whole different world. 
It's built differently and 

1101
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:28,480
allows for different 
opportunities. 

1102
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,560
That just wasn't wasn't there at
that time. 

1103
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:33,520
Yeah. 
And even if you have this kind 

1104
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:36,240
of a structure that is not 
optimal, even though he had that

1105
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:40,360
in place, you are still not to 
oppress your fellow Israelite. 

1106
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,720
You're not to oppress the 
foreigner who is in your midst. 

1107
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:44,520
So. 
So whether an Israelite, whether

1108
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:48,440
a foreigner, you are not to be 
an oppressor of those people, 

1109
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:49,680
especially when they're 
vulnerable. 

1110
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,600
This is really the heartbeat of 
the the Mosaic Law. 

1111
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:56,600
Do not oppress those who could 
be easily taken advantage of. 

1112
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,880
You know all the more that they 
are to be looked out for. 

1113
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,040
And would you also make the case
that whether it eradicated 

1114
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:08,640
slavery at the time, but 
eventually these values that the

1115
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:13,000
Bible presents became kind of 
the building blocks for the 

1116
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,480
eradication of slavery in the in
the modern Western world. 

1117
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:18,880
Would you agree with that? 
Oh, no, absolutely. 

1118
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,880
I mean, I some people will say, 
look, you've got the biggest 25,

1119
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:25,520
you've got some of these texts, 
but you also have kind of the 

1120
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:29,480
modern, well, one, you have a 
reinforcement of the image of 

1121
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:31,520
God that all people are made in 
the image of God. 

1122
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,240
A lot of you know, it's 
something that was not the case 

1123
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:38,000
in the ancient Near East, where 
you have now a kind of a racial 

1124
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,720
racializing of slavery in the 
modern world. 

1125
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,120
You know that this is, and you 
have A, and a, you know, you 

1126
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,960
have abused texts like the, you 
know, the, the, the, the, the, 

1127
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:52,640
the curse of Cain or the mark 
of, you know, kind of the, you 

1128
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:57,080
know, you have this presumption 
that say the, the curse against 

1129
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:01,680
Canaan is, is some sort of a, 
you know, a skin color or 

1130
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,800
something like that. 
So, so really a terrible misuse 

1131
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:08,600
of the scriptures taking place 
by these, you know, modern 

1132
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:13,160
interpreters who are trying to 
justify slavery in this, in, in 

1133
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:16,359
that very oppressive sense. 
And basically what I write about

1134
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:20,760
in in both my books, the moral 
monster book, the vindictive 

1135
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,560
bully book, is to say that if 
the Mosaic law were actually 

1136
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:28,279
being followed, you would not 
have had the kind of problems 

1137
01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:31,479
with slavery in the modern world
that we have experienced. 

1138
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:35,160
If you, for example, gave 
opportunity for the for the 

1139
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,120
Well, for one thing, kidnapping 
was prohibited not just in 

1140
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:40,240
Israel, but widespread 
throughout the ancient areas. 

1141
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:42,920
Kidnapping was something that's 
capitally punishable. 

1142
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,120
So that's how modern slavery got
started in the 1st place. 

1143
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,200
So there's that. 
And then you got again, 

1144
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:52,560
provisions that are given to the
Israelites, sorry, given to the 

1145
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:56,439
Israelites to to to gleaning 
laws that are going to poverty 

1146
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:58,319
and have to sell themselves into
servitude. 

1147
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:02,560
You've got the you have the six 
year term limits that that 

1148
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,279
you're not to go beyond. 
And once you're done, you're 

1149
01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:07,800
debt free. 
You also have the the 

1150
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,880
remarkable, you know that 
runaway slave law that if a 

1151
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,560
foreign slave runs away, he is 
not to be returned to his harsh 

1152
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,359
master. 
Well, the the antebellum S had 

1153
01:09:18,359 --> 01:09:23,279
the fugitive slave laws that 
again had you had to return the 

1154
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:26,560
runaway slave to his master 
because that was his property. 

1155
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,640
And in fact, in the ancient year
E you had extradition treaties 

1156
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:33,120
between the Babylonians and the 
Hittites and so forth to return 

1157
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,479
those runaway slaves. 
And often very much a you know 

1158
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:39,319
that there was a there were 
stiff penalties, so sometimes 

1159
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:42,240
body mutilations if you are a 
runaway slave. 

1160
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,439
And the code of Hammurabi says 
that if from Babylon, it says 

1161
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:50,920
that if you are harboring a 
runaway slave, then you too 

1162
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,480
could be capitally punished. 
So, so there is that very strong

1163
01:09:54,480 --> 01:09:56,960
penalty that goes along with 
harboring runaway slaves. 

1164
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:00,760
But the law, the Mosaic Law says
if there's a foreign runaway 

1165
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:04,080
slave, he has to be able to, you
could, he could settle in any of

1166
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,280
Israel's cities. 
So a remarkable contrast here. 

1167
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:10,440
Beautiful. 
Really amazing. 

1168
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:14,360
And, and the last part that we 
want to touch on is the, the 

1169
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:19,960
idea of, of women being kind of 
owned or children being owned 

1170
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,320
with like the, the rebellious 
son and the, the capital 

1171
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:24,680
punishment with that. 
And, and maybe, you know, like 

1172
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:28,120
we could touch on a captive 
woman from a war. 

1173
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:32,200
How do you understand this in 
within the context? 

1174
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:38,080
Yeah, it's there is the well, of
course, we see at the very 

1175
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:44,760
beginning that there are laws 
that reflect the basic 

1176
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,960
understanding of human beings 
being made in the image of God. 

1177
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:52,880
So when you have the, when you 
have the 10 commandments, for 

1178
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:56,880
example, mentioning that you're 
to honour your father and your 

1179
01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:00,880
mother, not your, not honour 
your father and a piece of 

1180
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,080
furniture. 
You are, you know, your honor, 

1181
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:08,520
your father and, and property. 
And there is a, a dignity that 

1182
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:13,600
is being upheld about the woman.
Even when you read, for example,

1183
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:19,680
the, the ancient Kyle, the, the,
the, the strong, virtuous woman,

1184
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:22,960
the woman of character. 
And of course, Ruth herself is 

1185
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:26,560
called an ancient Kyle. 
You know, in, in the, in the 

1186
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:30,000
book of, you know, in the book 
of Ruth, again reflecting, you 

1187
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,160
know, again, of course, in the, 
in the Hebrew Scriptures, you 

1188
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,280
know, the book of the book of 
Proverbs is followed by the book

1189
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:39,360
of, of Ruth. 
And so that kind of Ruth is 

1190
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:44,720
exemplifying that, that Asia 
Kyle, who is this, this, this 

1191
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,840
strong, virtuous woman, this, 
this woman who, who makes things

1192
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,960
happen. 
Just reading Proverbs 3031, you 

1193
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,360
see a woman who is taking 
initiative. 

1194
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:57,560
You see a woman who is in a 
sense, the professional in her 

1195
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,960
own sphere, who is engaged in 
real estate, engaged in 

1196
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:03,880
commerce. 
You know, of course, she's 

1197
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,640
clothing her family, taking care
of them and and her husband is, 

1198
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,800
you know, is at this, you know, 
at the city gates, you know, 

1199
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:14,640
doing his own, you know, having 
his own leadership role there. 

1200
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:18,760
But basically you see the, 
there's A, and I talk about this

1201
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:23,120
in the in the book is God of 
vindictive bully, where where 

1202
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:26,960
there is a heterarchy rather 
than a patriarchy, which is 

1203
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:30,800
actually an anachronistic term. 
There is a heterarchy that is 

1204
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:35,040
males have certain areas where 
they are skilled, where they are

1205
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:37,200
the professionals. 
You also have women who are 

1206
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,840
engaged in areas where they are 
skilled, where they are, they're

1207
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:45,160
doing their thing and that there
is this interdependency given 

1208
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:49,480
those basic skill sets, you 
know, that correspond to what 

1209
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,080
males and females do, that they 
depend upon one another, that 

1210
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:56,000
they, that they reinforce one 
another, they complement one 

1211
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:57,920
another. 
Rather than seeing women as 

1212
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:01,080
being treated in a, in a 
denigrating sort of way, There 

1213
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:06,280
is a strong complementarity to, 
to make a family operate in a, 

1214
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:10,480
in a, in an integrated way, or 
even the society to operate in 

1215
01:13:10,480 --> 01:13:15,360
that, in that integrated way. 
So, so, so, so again, I, I could

1216
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,320
go into a lot more dealing. 
We see women who are rising in 

1217
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:19,760
leadership. 
I mean, of course you have 

1218
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:23,040
negative, you know, negative 
examples like Jezebel and 

1219
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,000
Adelaia and so forth. 
But you have the, you know, the 

1220
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:29,240
Shunamite woman. 
Who is this prominent woman, you

1221
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:33,960
know, Gedola in Shunam and she 
persuades her husband to have an

1222
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:37,680
upper chamber built for, for 
Elisha when he comes through, 

1223
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:42,360
when there is a, when there is a
famine in the land, You know 

1224
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:45,400
that she, she basically 
mobilizes her household to leave

1225
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,080
for Philistia. 
And then when she returns, her 

1226
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:49,720
property's been taken over by 
slaughter. 

1227
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,720
So she goes and appeals to the 
king in order to get back her 

1228
01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,280
property, which he grants her. 
So, so you do see these 

1229
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:57,840
influential proactive women. 
We talk about Ruth, we talk 

1230
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,200
about Naomi. 
We can talk about the wise woman

1231
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,640
of Takowa. 
We can talk about all these, you

1232
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:05,960
know, Deborah and and and and 
Esther, the daughters. 

1233
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:10,720
Of the daughters of Saffad were 
like able to convince Moshe 

1234
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,960
through God to literally. 
Inherit property? 

1235
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:15,560
Yeah, exactly. 
Yeah. 

1236
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,080
God tells Abraham to listen to 
Sarah, whatever she says. 

1237
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:23,000
Yeah, absolutely. 
So, so anyway, I want to, I want

1238
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:27,360
to put that in in its proper 
context because so often that 

1239
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:31,440
gets minimized by looking maybe 
at, oh, look at this particular 

1240
01:14:31,440 --> 01:14:33,760
passage, how look at how the 
women are treated. 

1241
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:35,920
And of course, it's often a 
misunderstanding anyway. 

1242
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,400
But I just want to offer the 
broader context that male and 

1243
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:41,640
female are they're both image 
bearers. 

1244
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:45,520
They're both to be treated with 
honor, honor in the household 

1245
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,120
that the children are to listen 
to both their father and their 

1246
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:50,160
mother, to honor their father to
mother and so forth. 

1247
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,680
So anyway, but let me just 
mention a couple of things here.

1248
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,280
You know that there are 
sometimes in, for example, in in

1249
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:03,120
Deuteronomy 21, there is mention
of this ceremony where they're 

1250
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:07,360
prisoners of war who come into 
Israel. 

1251
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:13,640
And there is the the possibility
of a soldier taking on a foreign

1252
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:17,760
woman as a wife and she would be
incorporated into into Israel. 

1253
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:22,200
But some people see this as 
basically a, you know, that 

1254
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:26,040
base, you know that, that there 
is a, you know, rape, you know, 

1255
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:30,120
rape of, of women prisoners of 
war and so forth. 

1256
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,520
And that is again, an 
uncharitable reading of what we 

1257
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:36,920
see going on in the in that 
passage. 

1258
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,920
What is what is happening here? 
For one thing, you know, war 

1259
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:45,920
rape was was not permitted at 
all for Israelite soldiers that 

1260
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,120
yes, it was carried out by other
ancient Near Eastern peoples in 

1261
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,240
warfare settings. 
And sometimes the, you know, the

1262
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:55,280
the women prisoners of war were 
put into their, you know, the 

1263
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:57,640
temples of their gods as sex 
slaves and so forth, 

1264
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,720
prostitutes, but not for the 
Israelites. 

1265
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:04,320
There was to be a waiting period
that, that you know, even as you

1266
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:10,720
look at the, the example of 
Uriah the, the Hittite, who even

1267
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:14,800
when he's called home from the 
battle to to lie with his wife 

1268
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:19,000
to cover up David's sin. 
You know, he, he said, how can I

1269
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:23,080
do so when that when my, my, 
when my comrades are on the 

1270
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:24,640
front lives, risking their 
lives. 

1271
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:26,000
No, I'm not going to do this 
thing. 

1272
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,680
So he did not go into his wife 
to have sexual relations. 

1273
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,720
Why while his brothers were 
fighting on the front lines. 

1274
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:36,280
And also, you know, you look at 
David's men when they go to the 

1275
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:40,000
priest, you know, at DOB and, 
and he, they asked for the, for 

1276
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:44,920
the, the sacred bread and, and 
the, and the priest asks, you 

1277
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:48,760
know, he says, have your men had
sexual relations with women? 

1278
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:50,520
And David says, no, they have 
not. 

1279
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:52,880
So there is that presupposition 
that you go into war. 

1280
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:56,640
There's a kind of ritual purity 
that you're undertaking as you 

1281
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:58,960
go into battle. 
So it's not something you, you 

1282
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:01,160
don't engage in sexual relations
on the battlefield. 

1283
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:03,360
This is something that is like 
holy territory. 

1284
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:06,720
You are to be, you're to be, you
know, abstaining from those 

1285
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:09,160
things while you're engaging in 
this task. 

1286
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,560
But anyway, we can, we can say 
that in, you know, when you have

1287
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:17,240
this prisoner of war, this woman
who is taken as a gentile into 

1288
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:21,720
the home of of an Israelite man,
there is a 30 day waiting 

1289
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,240
period. 
And, and of course there is to 

1290
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:29,480
be a, you know, she, she shaves 
her head and clips her nails. 

1291
01:17:29,480 --> 01:17:34,640
She puts on, you know, sackcloth
and so forth to, to lament, you 

1292
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:38,760
know, to say farewell to the 
previous life that she lived and

1293
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:42,920
basically as a transition to a 
new way of life now in Israel. 

1294
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:45,680
This is actually a very, I 
think, gracious and 

1295
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:50,880
compassionate sort of response. 
In fact, if the soldier decides 

1296
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:55,280
not to take her as his wife, he 
you know, he is reminded to to 

1297
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:57,320
treat her kindly with 
graciousness. 

1298
01:17:57,520 --> 01:17:59,680
It says because you have 
humiliate her doesn't mean 

1299
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:01,560
you've had sex with her, but 
she's gone through that 

1300
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,680
ceremony, that of humiliation. 
And so she is not to be treated 

1301
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:08,200
in, you know, she's not to be 
mistreated. 

1302
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:11,080
There's a sense, a certain 
gentleness here that is being 

1303
01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:13,800
depicted of these prisoner of 
war women. 

1304
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:17,560
And and so this is actually 
should be seen as an elevating 

1305
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,240
the the vulnerable woman who is 
making this sort of transition. 

1306
01:18:21,440 --> 01:18:24,320
And keep in mind that this is a,
you know, again, to be a 

1307
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:26,240
marriage ceremony. 
It's not as though this is a 

1308
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:30,120
sexual object here. 
This is entering into marriage. 

1309
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:32,840
So there's that month long 
waiting period, there's that 

1310
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,600
morning, there's a, there's a 
marriage covenant before there 

1311
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:37,200
are sexual relations and so 
forth. 

1312
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:41,040
So, so there's a concern for the
woman's honor here that she 

1313
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:43,960
should not be shamed or 
humiliated and so on. 

1314
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,600
So, so that's a little bit of 
the context here when it comes 

1315
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:50,520
to say, the prisoners of war and
and you know, the women and how 

1316
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:52,400
they're to be treated, how 
they're to be regarded. 

1317
01:18:53,440 --> 01:18:58,080
One thing I would say it doesn't
directly relate to your point, 

1318
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,960
but I I think it does in a way 
in that you see that the Bible 

1319
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:06,520
spends a lot of time narratively
talking about women. 

1320
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,240
It's a huge focal point. 
I mean all over. 

1321
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:12,920
I mean especially in Genesis 
like the. 

1322
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:15,360
Daughter of the daughter of 
Pharaoh. 

1323
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:17,320
Yeah, yeah. 
Daughter of Pharaoh. 

1324
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:20,320
The the Bill, the the Shifran, 
the Shifran Pua. 

1325
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:22,600
You have a Rakhalandea with 
Bilan. 

1326
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:25,880
Zilpa, you have the Yeah, Tamar.
Yeah, yeah, Tamar. 

1327
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:34,920
It's you know, if the if if the 
Bible was dismissive of women, I

1328
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:41,560
doubt just intuitively, I doubt 
so much of the real estate in 

1329
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:45,200
the Bible would be would be 
focusing so much on the lives of

1330
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:47,960
these women and what they have, 
how they they literally 

1331
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:51,080
established our nation. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1332
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:53,960
From an intuitive perspective, 
I'm talking, you know, besides 

1333
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:59,320
the, the, the, the, besides just
the literary points, I think 

1334
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,760
that when one reads the Bible as
a whole, you really don't get 

1335
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:05,760
that feeling if you read it 
carefully and if you read it 

1336
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:07,200
with, you know, absolutely. 
Yep. 

1337
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:11,320
Very well said. 
So, so the last part, which is 

1338
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,960
really before we go, I know you 
have to run, but the the, let's 

1339
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:19,320
say the, the child, the wayward 
son, that whole story as in the 

1340
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:22,000
condition, we don't believe that
there was ever such a case. 

1341
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:23,600
And it's used kind of like a 
scare tactic. 

1342
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:26,000
I'm wondering if you if you see 
that kind of the same way. 

1343
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:29,600
Right, yeah, I, I do there. 
That's, and one of the things 

1344
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,320
that I, I made a little bit of a
modification in the from the 

1345
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:36,600
moral monster book to the 
vindictive bully book, where I, 

1346
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:41,800
I, I do take the view more 
strongly that these punishments,

1347
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:45,360
you know, say stoning or, or 
burning, etcetera. 

1348
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:50,600
These are exaggerations for, you
know, to in a sense, to, to have

1349
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,800
the Israelite people straighten 
up and fly right, that they are 

1350
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,280
going to be attending to these 
things, that these are things 

1351
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,160
that are serious, that you, if 
you undertake these things, 

1352
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:01,600
that's going to lead to a 
breakdown. 

1353
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:04,640
It's going to be leading to 
destruction and so on. 

1354
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,160
And that this is going to bring 
harm to the community. 

1355
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,400
And so we see that first born 
son, if he, you know, that this 

1356
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:15,160
is a an example of a delinquent 
son who is, there's a 

1357
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:18,000
dereliction of duty here who 
should be rising up and 

1358
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:23,360
basically caring for the family 
rather than squandering his life

1359
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:25,720
and bringing hardship to the 
rest of the family. 

1360
01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:29,680
So, so, yeah, but the, the you, 
you have a couple of case 

1361
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:33,720
studies of capital punishment, 
but really that's the exception 

1362
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:36,040
rather than the rule. 
You have very severe 

1363
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:37,760
punishments. 
And again, we could extend this 

1364
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:40,680
to, to the code of Hummer, 
Robbie and other ancient Near 

1365
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:44,040
Eastern law collections where 
you'll have sometimes almost 

1366
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:49,040
overly severe punishments that 
you know, that you know, for a, 

1367
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:53,080
for a surgeon or a, you know, or
a, you know, to have your hand 

1368
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:56,240
cut off or to have your child, 
you know, killed. 

1369
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:00,080
If you go into this profession 
and you are a slipshod builder 

1370
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:03,520
or you're, you're not careful as
a surgeon, well, who's going to 

1371
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:05,960
go into the building profession?
Who's going to go into the 

1372
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:10,920
surgical profession? 
If those of the drastic, you 

1373
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:12,800
know, outcomes that that could 
come to you. 

1374
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,080
So there is this sort of a an 
exaggeration for effect, 

1375
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:19,400
basically saying don't do these 
things, don't take shortcuts in 

1376
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:20,680
your work. 
Don't, you know, don't do 

1377
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,680
slipshod work. 
And so they they just serve as 

1378
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:26,680
severe warnings. 
You know, like I mentioned that 

1379
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:29,520
the, you know, in the, in the, 
in my vindictive bully book, 

1380
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:36,560
that the the Goring ox of, of 
chapter 20, Exodus 21, They're 

1381
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:39,360
very, you know, we have out of 
all of these, you know, case 

1382
01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:42,120
laws and and descriptions and so
forth that we have for the 

1383
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:46,320
ancient ear E, you have very 
little mention of any sort of 

1384
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:48,800
Goring ox. 
You'd think, Oh, Goring oxes 

1385
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,280
that happened all the time. 
No, it was just kind of a an 

1386
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:55,240
example that's kind of taken 
and, and using it as a case 

1387
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:57,600
study sort of like, you know, if
you've got a Goring ox and 

1388
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,720
you're not taking control of it,
if it's it has in the habit of 

1389
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,560
Goring people, you're being 
negligent and you could be 

1390
01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:06,760
punished. 
It's kind of like having bad 

1391
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:09,920
brakes and you're riding with 
brakes that don't work very well

1392
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:13,720
and you could be liable if you 
don't repair those brakes and 

1393
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:16,480
you're, you know, you run 
someone over because your brakes

1394
01:23:16,480 --> 01:23:20,000
have not been taken care of. 
So you have those sorts of 

1395
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,440
examples. 
But yeah, exactly to the point 

1396
01:23:22,440 --> 01:23:25,560
that those those punishments are
there's, there's something 

1397
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:28,640
drastic about them. 
But again, there's a high degree

1398
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:31,320
of hyperbole or exaggeration in 
those punishments. 

1399
01:23:31,440 --> 01:23:33,960
Yeah, and even even the way that
in the rabbinic tradition, the 

1400
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:37,640
way they interpreted this is 
like the rabbi's were very, very

1401
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:42,840
like careful about even capital 
punishment applying or enforcing

1402
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:44,520
capital punishment. 
They they would say like one 

1403
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:46,200
that's every seven years or 
every seven years. 

1404
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:50,080
If there was ever some type of 
capital punishment, it was a 

1405
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:56,320
very like it was considered like
a, you know, yeah, like a son 

1406
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:57,920
had dream that that took it too 
far. 

1407
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:02,320
But really like the emphasis on,
on preserving life is, is very 

1408
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:06,080
much a part of the tradition. 
And I wanted to say, I think one

1409
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:09,160
of the points you touched on, I 
think is probably the, one of 

1410
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,640
the most powerful statements 
that the Bible makes is that the

1411
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:17,960
democratization of, of quote UN 
quote, divinity, where God gives

1412
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:20,800
all of mankind, it's not just 
Israelites, but all of mankind 

1413
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:24,160
through Adam, he, he gives them 
this, this Talam Elokim. 

1414
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:28,040
And, and, and I think that it's 
extremely powerful because in 

1415
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:30,480
the ancient world, like you 
mentioned, there was a 

1416
01:24:30,480 --> 01:24:34,840
hierarchical structure and, and 
there were man gods, right? 

1417
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,680
There was a divine like the 
Pharaohs and Nimrod and all 

1418
01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:40,840
these characters, they, they 
took kind of the position of, of

1419
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:43,280
God. 
So it's extremely powerful. 

1420
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:46,240
And before we go, I just want to
sincerely thank you once again 

1421
01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:49,120
for joining us and we truly 
appreciate your time. 

1422
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:52,600
And before we wrap up, can you 
tell our audience where they can

1423
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:55,640
find more of your work and what 
your, you know, where your 

1424
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:56,720
online content is? 
Sure. 

1425
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:03,920
Yeah, I mean, I'm my website 
ispaulcopan.com, you know, PAULC

1426
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:07,760
opan.com, where you can see some
of the stuff that I've worked 

1427
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:09,480
on. 
If you want to look at the books

1428
01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:14,000
that I've written, edited, Co 
edited, etcetera, you can just 

1429
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:19,200
go to my authors page at at 
Amazon.com and you can see the 

1430
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:20,320
various books that I've worked 
on. 

1431
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:22,880
And we talked about, say the 
flood and, you know, even even 

1432
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:25,680
the use of numbers in in the Old
Testament. 

1433
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:30,560
And I, I co-authored a book with
Jake Douglas Jacobi on Genesis 

1434
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:33,960
one through 11 that looks at it 
from a kind of a theological and

1435
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:36,560
and moral point of view and, and
brings in some of those 

1436
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:38,640
insights. 
So that might be of interest as 

1437
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,160
a book called Origins that looks
at this is one through 11. 

1438
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:43,640
But basically the books we've 
been talking about is God a 

1439
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:45,440
moral monster? 
Is God a vindictive bully? 

1440
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:50,640
Hopefully your your audience 
will find those helpful and that

1441
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:54,200
they'll be able to have a a a 
greater understanding of the 

1442
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:57,480
biblical text of the ancient 
Near Eastern context and and 

1443
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,480
hopefully this will bring 
illumination and clarification 

1444
01:26:00,480 --> 01:26:02,920
for them. 
Thank you so much. 

1445
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:04,080
Thank you. 
God bless you. 

1446
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:05,960
Thank you. 
And you as well. 

1447
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,240
A pleasure to be with you. 
All right, take care. 

1448
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:09,320
All right. 
Thank you. 

1449
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:09,880
Bye.