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Welcome to Judaism, Demystified,
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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We are joined by Doctor Lenny 
Goodman was a professor of 

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Philosophy and Jewish Studies 
and Andrew W Mellon professor in

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the Humanities. 
His philosophical interests 

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center on metaphysics and 
ethics, and he has paid special 

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attention over the years to 
Islamic and Jewish philosophical

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thought and their creative 
interactions. 

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Goodman was a winner of the 
American Philosophical 

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Association Baumgard Memorial 
Prize and was a rare humanities 

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recipient of Vanderbilt 
University's top research award,

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the Earl Settlement Prize. 
He has written philosophical 

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essays on most of the major 
figures of Islamic and Jewish 

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philosophy and on a variety of 
topics in political philosophy, 

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bio philosophy, and the theory 
of knowledge and culture. 

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He serves in the editorial 
boards of History of Philosophy,

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Quarterly and Medieval 
Philosophy and Theology. 

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He is an associate editor of 
Asian Philosophy. 

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He has served as Vice President 
and program chair of the 

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Institute for Islamic Judaic 
Studies. 

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He has also served as program 
chair for the APA panels of the 

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Academy for Jewish Philosophy. 
He was Jewish Philosophy Subject

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editor of the Routledge 
Encyclopedia of Philosophy and 

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is a Fellow of the Academy for 
Jewish Philosophy. 

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Without further ado, Doctor Len 
Goodman. 

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Thank you for joining the 
Judaism Demystified podcast. 

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Professor Goodman, first of all,
you're one of the most requested

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guest returnees. 
So we're just so happy that 

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we're able to to do this. 
Again, we've been in touch a lot

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obviously over the year since I 
think it was a year or so since 

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you were on last. 
And we're really looking forward

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to this because for everybody 
listening, we wanted to discuss 

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the new translation to the guide
which you which you just made 

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and it's been previously done by
Moshe Friedlander and most 

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notably Shlomo Pinas. 
What has driven you to write 

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this new translation to the 
guide, and what do you hope to 

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add or change from the previous 
translations? 

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Thank you. 
And I should say one once we get

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started, it's really a pleasure 
to be back and I love being here

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and it's a it's a wonderful 
program and I've heard nice 

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feedback about what you posted. 
The the free letter translation 

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was the first into English you 
could see I I used to teach it 

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years ago. 
It was reprinted very 

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inexpensively by Dover and my 
students could afford, if you 

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would believe, a big fat 
paperback like that cost $1.40 

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back in the day. 
And it because it was the first,

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it has many mistakes in it. 
Friedlander was feeling his way.

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He was he was a scholarly man. 
You could see when you're 

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trying, when you when you used 
his translation that when he was

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in trouble with the Arabic, he 
would rely on even T bones 

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important Hebrew translation, 
which is very natural for him. 

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And that's something that a lot 
of traditional people had access

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to. 
When we're reading themselves. 

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Naturally, in that pioneering 
position that Friedlander was 

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in, he he has mistakes in his 
translation. 

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There was one way in which his 
translation was extremely useful

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to me, but the Dover people did 
not include his notes. 

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His notes are very extensive and
relied upon the four traditional

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commentaries from the Middle 
Ages on the Guide to the 

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Perplexed. 
And those are very valuable, 

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walking you through what others 
thought about it but in order to

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make the book cheap and 
accessible and so forth. 

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And they stripped that all out. 
So you can still get the if you 

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if you know how to work the 
Internet, you know you can you 

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can get the the full Freelander.
Originally it was in three 

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volumes, and there was a one 
volume edition which contained 

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all of the notes that he had 
done. 

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And you'll see them cited 
whatever we used anybody. 

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Phil Lieberman and I, my my 
coworker, on that new 

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translation of the guide. 
Whenever we cited anybody, we 

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always gave credit, and we often
found ourselves giving credit to

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three Landers, pointing out 
things that the traditional 

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commentators had used the other 
translation. 

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And by the way, one nice thing 
about Friedlander he wrote in a 

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kind of Victorian English which 
was still accessible to people 

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at the time when he was doing 
that work in the 19th century. 

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And it fits, in a way, with the 
kind of traditional phraseology 

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that people find in the Guide to
the Perplexed. 

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In the case of Shlomo Penis's 
translation, Shlomo Penis. 

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And that really is how his name 
was pronounced. 

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He kind of insisted on it. 
Even when he was teaching, I 

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knew I knew him. 
He was a great Arabist, a great 

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scholar, a very warm and lovely 
man. 

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He was asked to do this because 
of the interest in the guide of 

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Rail Strauss, and there was a 
scholar at the University of 

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Chicago, Ralph Lehrer, who was 
who was still around, and he was

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supposed to help Shlomo penis 
with his English. 

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Because he was not a native 
speaker of English. 

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He knew many languages, but 
Lerner was also keeping an eye 

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on Penis's translation to make 
sure it stayed consistent with 

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Leo Strauss's interpretation. 
And readers who are interested 

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in my forthcoming companion 
volume to the new translation, 

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which is called The Guide to the
Guide, of course, is they will. 

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They will find that Shlomo Penis
had his own idea of what the 

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guide was all about. 
He originally began work on that

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in Germany in the 1930s, and you
can understand the pressure that

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someone would feel in that time 
period, and everyone who worked 

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on anything at all Jewish at 
that time. 

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Eventually that was all 
suppressed. 

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But Leo Strauss was very 
concerned with the political 

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overtones of a work and 
developed the idea that medieval

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philosophers were not 
necessarily telling it the way 

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they really saw it, that they 
were concealing their true 

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intentions. 
And he set about trying to work 

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that out. 
It was a reflection of the 

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oppressive times that, you know,
Strauss lived under and 

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eventually got out from under 
when he came to this country, 

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when he when he got out from 
under the thumb of people who 

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were being at first watched and 
eventually destroyed by the 

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Nazis. 
And his thesis about that 

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indirection in the in the guide 
lived long after him. 

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Leo Strauss followed the 
Talmudic victim of raising up 

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many disciples. 
And he had many disciples, and 

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he was a man with an idea. 
Many of his disciples attached 

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themselves to that idea, and 
we're not themselves as creative

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and original in their thinking 
as he was. 

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The the thesis that the guide is
really concealing its true 

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message and is adopting a a 
skeptical view about biblical 

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and rabbinic outlook, was 
attractive to many people, 

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partly because it seemed 
contrarian and partly because it

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was something new. 
It was new in 1935 when you know

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Strauss first brought it up, but
he but he brought it up again in

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the 40s and again in the 50s, 
and it became a whole school of 

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thought. 
Many of the avatars of that 

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school of thought were were not 
as as learned or as creative and

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as Leo Strauss himself was. 
But Penis was supposed to 

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translate the guide in that same
spirit, and partly as a result, 

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he he projected Straussian ideas
onto the text which really don't

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belong there. 
I can be specific about that, 

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and in the commentary and in the
guide to the guide, I'm going to

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some detail about that. 
We have to believe that the 

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Rambam devoted himself to 
Alakha, to Torah, to the issues 

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of how do you make biblical 
philosophy. 

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We have to believe that he was 
very sincere about that. 

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I think that's demonstrated on 
every page of the guide, and 

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unfortunately you miss a lot of 
that. 

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In the penis translation, 
there's another problem with two

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problems really, with the penis 
translation, and I taught it for

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many years. 
I I know that translation very, 

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very intimately. 
One I mentioned that penis was 

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not a native speaker of English,
so he doesn't have the feel for 

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the diction of the original. 
He knows Arabic, He knew Arabic 

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very, very well. 
He's a great scholar of Arabic 

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thought and literature, but he 
didn't have the feel of the tone

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that Maimonides adopted, and 
that's partly because of 

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convention that people have in 
translating works from Arabic. 

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And you'll see the same thing in
translations from the Hebrew. 

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They try to be very literal. 
I think that penis was 

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instructed by Strauss to be very
literal, but in trying to be 

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very literal they get very 
etymological and etymology is 

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not going to give you the real 
meaning of a term. 

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You have to know the difference 
between a Hospice at a hospital 

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if you usage is what determines 
the meeting. 

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And we have a letter from Rambam
himself to Evan Tibben trying to

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encourage Evan Tibben not to be 
so literal when he translated 

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the guy from the Arabic into 
Hebrew during Maimonides own 

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lifetime. 
And he said look, sometimes 

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you'll need 2 words to express 
what idea, sometimes you'll need

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one word to express 2 ideas. 
Don't try and follow the syntax 

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of the original. 
Unfortunately, Maimonides died 

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soon after writing that letter, 
and the translation that we have

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for bibbid Tibbins tends to be a
little too literal, and that's 

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compounded by a convention that 
they have in translating Arabic 

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and Hebrew. 
I don't know if our listeners 

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have ever taken a course in 
Latin. 

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When you take a course in Latin,
the the kiddies, let's say 

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they're in 8th or 9th grade, are
worried that the structure is 

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going to come around and see 
that. 

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Have they parse this sentence 
correctly? 

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Have they understood it? 
So they tried to imitate the 

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idiom and the syntax of the 
original to show that they were 

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parsing the sentence correctly. 
That's that's a good thing for a

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kid to do who's in middle school
is not a good thing to do if you

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want to make a translation, have
the kind of impact that the 

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original had on the original 
leader. 

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The language that the Rambam 
uses in the Guide to the 

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Perplexed is conversational. 
Professor Lieberman and I 

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developed the idea that it 
probably was dictated. 

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He was elderly at the time. 
When he when he wrote that book,

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he probably did not sit in and 
write it out as he did other 

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books of his. 
He probably was dictating. 

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And you can see that 
conversational informal tone 

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addressing the reader who is a 
former disciple who has gone 

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elsewhere and needs to be sent. 
Chapters every, every little 

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group of chapters get sent on to
him through through post, which 

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of course not. 
And that was it was not the the 

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kind of mail we have today, the 
that that need to establish a 

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rapport with your reader, to 
build a bond of intimacy and 

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trust with your reader, to speak
in a conversational tone that 

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all comes through in the guide. 
It is not written in a 

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formalistic sort of way. 
It's written in in an intimate, 

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engaging way, in the manner of a
rasala, as it's called in 

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Arabic, an essay in the form of 
a letter. 

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The whole thing opens with a 
letter, and it tells what the 

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occasion is for writing the 
letter. 

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And sometimes in an essay you'll
see an author addressing his 

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leader and trying to bring him 
on board, trying to explain what

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what we're up to, what we're 
trying to achieve together. 

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Rumba does that all the time, 
right through, right through the

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book, speaking to him in a in a 
warm and friendly and even 

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fatherly way. 
The essay form originates in 

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antiquity, in the form of 
letters, where that the highly 

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structured organization that you
see in the round bombs legal 

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code, the Mishnat Tarah, is not 
found in the guide. 

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On the contrary, it's very 
digressive. 

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It's very informal. 
It's organization and that 

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serves another purpose because 
as as Strauss suspected, there 

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is a subtext in the guide. 
It's not. 

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Don't believe anything. 
I'm telling you that's that's a 

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little extreme. 
But but the subtext is one of 

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trying to make sure that a 
reader who is not prepared to 

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deal with serious philosophical 
problems does not get in over 

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his or her head. 
And the way that's done is that 

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the bra bomb in the guide has 
not named the problems he's 

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going to address. 
Even the problem of evil, which 

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is a well known philosophical 
problem. 

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He doesn't name it. 
He says, well, I'll tell you 

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about the Book of Joe. 
If you've thought of it all 

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about the Book of Job, you know 
that you're going to be dealing 

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with the problem of evil. 
Why do innocents suffer? 

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Why do wicked people apparently 
prosper? 

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00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:20,040
But but the Rambam introduces 
all his problems obliquely, 

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indirectly, and counts on the 
reader to understand what the 

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problem is. 
That will deal with questions 

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that are critical in the guide, 
like what is the nature of 

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revelation? 
What is a prophet really? 

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How does how does rabbinic 
language relate to biblical 

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00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,880
language? 
Different kind of approach, 

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00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,680
different idiom. 
And by using that indirect 

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00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,240
method, not laying out his, you 
know, introduction and telling 

230
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,880
you here are the problems we're 
going to address and so forth. 

231
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,960
Using the essay form, he can, he
can make sure that people who 

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00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,400
are not really motivated or 
capable of dealing with those 

233
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,520
problems and seeing their way 
through how to deal with them 

234
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:12,160
are not in danger by trying to 
address issues that they don't 

235
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:18,119
know how to address. 
So, so that's a that that's that

236
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,839
there is an esoteric text, but 
the esoteric text is not occult,

237
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:27,359
is not hermetic. 
It's it's a it's a way of 

238
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,720
bringing along those who are 
exercised by those problems and 

239
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,520
leaving behind those who are 
bored by those problems, or 

240
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,760
aren't competent to address 
them, or don't have the courage 

241
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,840
to address them and so forth. 
That's a, that's a that's a a 

242
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,040
nuance which the old 
translations tend to miss. 

243
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,240
That is makes me feel like I 
want to start reading it like 

244
00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:02,680
right now. 
That was really good and I 

245
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,600
wanted to get into the idea or 
the problem of contradictions. 

246
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,320
How do you deal? 
How do you deal with the 

247
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,560
contradictions in the more? 
What is your in the guide? 

248
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,680
What is your approach to dealing
with contradictions in the 

249
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,400
guide? 
Good question. 

250
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,960
Followers of Leo Strauss made a 
big point out of contradictions,

251
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,920
because Strauss took Mimari's 
had little discussion there. 

252
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,680
He lists seven different kinds 
of contradictions that work 

253
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,160
might have or body literature 
might contain. 

254
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:45,320
And Strauss thought that 
contradictions were the the 

255
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,400
bread crumbs in the past that 
would lead you to seeing what 

256
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,400
the round bombs true intentions 
were, that he embedded 

257
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,720
contradictions in the text. 
So when he says he believes 

258
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,800
this, so you should understand 
that he doesn't really mean it. 

259
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,720
But the but the little 
contradictions are the hint that

260
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,720
he's he means the opposite of 
what he's saying. 

261
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,800
That is a false issue. 
There are contradictions in 

262
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,480
every text. 
I've not yet come across any 

263
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,960
serious thinker who avoids all 
contradictions, even the great 

264
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,680
philosophers, Aristotle, 
Spinoza. 

265
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,960
Nobody's more systematic than 
Spinoza, but no philosopher has 

266
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,960
solved all the problems. 
If they did, philosophy would be

267
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,120
over and finished. 
But it's not, because there are 

268
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:47,280
always ways of finding another 
angle objecting to a certainty. 

269
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,000
Here's a problem you haven't 
solved yet. 

270
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:55,440
The Rambam's most concerned with
apparent contradictions in the 

271
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,960
Torah itself. 
The fact that he admits that 

272
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,160
there might be contradictions in
his own book. 

273
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,400
Is taken and jumped on by 
Straussians because they think 

274
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,400
that, oh, that's going to take 
us to the fact that he doesn't 

275
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:11,720
really believe in what he's 
saying. 

276
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,520
That's a mistake. 
It's a serious mistake. 

277
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,920
And if you read the guide to the
guide you'll see how badly that 

278
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,520
idea was handled. 
The kind of contradictions that 

279
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,600
the Rambam is concerned with, 
for example, are pedagogical 

280
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:36,400
contradictions where a where the
Rambam needs to introduce an 

281
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,240
idea in an oversimplified sort 
of way. 

282
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,440
Later on as you read on, he 
expects you to read patiently, 

283
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,480
expects you to read the guide 
more than once. 

284
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,080
You'll see that the 
contradictions are only 

285
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,160
apparent. 
But the Torah, the Torah, the 

286
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,920
the kind of contradictions that 
Torah contains. 

287
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,760
We know that God is not a 
physical being. 

288
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,800
But the Torah always talks about
God as God, as though God were a

289
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,400
physical being. 
That's a contradiction. 

290
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,160
And in the course of the guide 
he will explain to you why the 

291
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,720
Torah talks about God as though 
he were official or physical 

292
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,360
being and how to understand what
it means. 

293
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,920
That means that you have to 
understand the poetics of the of

294
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,920
the of the Torah. 
The Torah is written in in a lot

295
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,480
of metaphors because a God is so
transcendent, we can't describe 

296
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,120
God directly. 
You can see that in the eloquent

297
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:38,920
silence of Bureishi in the book 
of Genesis. 

298
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,240
It doesn't try to tell you why 
God created the world. 

299
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,720
It just starts out by saying 
that God created the world. 

300
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:52,000
You're going to have to try and 
understand what that means and 

301
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:57,640
what what depth that idea has. 
And the rob always has rabbinic 

302
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:03,960
company. 
And the rabbis said that the act

303
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:11,320
of creation is is so profound 
that it really is is is quite 

304
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,560
beyond us to understand how that
was done. 

305
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:22,240
And so the Torah just tells you 
baldly, in the beginning, God 

306
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,200
created heaven and earth. 
That's our starting point. 

307
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,600
And and we're going to, we're 
going to work with that idea. 

308
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,800
And that idea of creation is 
very important to the Ramba. 

309
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:43,800
But he he does not think. 
He does not think that the Torah

310
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,440
does contain contradictions. 
He finds certain contradictions 

311
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,840
in the rabbinic texts and often 
he says that's because they say,

312
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,560
oh, this rabbi said this and 
that rabbi said that and they 

313
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,720
had a disagreement. 
So there are contradictions 

314
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,280
between them and they have to be
resolved. 

315
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,920
And sometimes the Rabbis will 
take it as a starting point in 

316
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:15,680
their exegesis that that they 
will say there's one where where

317
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:21,880
where they say Solomon, why do 
you contradict your father, 

318
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,000
meaning David, It's bad enough 
that you do that and now you're 

319
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,960
contradicting yourself. 
So they find they find 2 

320
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:35,440
passages that seem to disagree 
with each other and and that 

321
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,720
becomes a basis for exegesis. 
They just say what are they 

322
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,440
really getting at. 
So they treat the Rabbis treat 

323
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:45,560
apparent contradictions in the 
Torah. 

324
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,880
It's sat the same way that they 
treat the apparent 

325
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,760
contradictions between 2 great 
teachers who have to be 

326
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,640
reconciled with one another. 
It's a it's it's it's food for 

327
00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,760
thought. 
So it's not hints. 

328
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,040
It's not hints of disingenuous 
writing. 

329
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:08,120
Right. 
So what you're describing, what 

330
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:10,560
I'm trying to put together is 
you're describing the 

331
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,880
contradictions which the realm 
is coming to solve within the 

332
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,960
corpus of Judaism itself. 
Well, what about the 

333
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,600
contradictions within the text 
itself? 

334
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,600
You. 
If you read the translation, 

335
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,160
every time the one of them 
appears, I tried to spell out 

336
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,520
what he's up to and he will, he 
will answer the questions. 

337
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,920
That's where the idea of 
pedagogical contradictions, 

338
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,520
which is one of the 
possibilities he mentions in 

339
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:46,440
explaining sometimes, sometimes 
an author, I guess a little 

340
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,440
ahead of himself or starts 
assuming things that he hasn't 

341
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,080
prepared the ground for, and you
have to allow 

342
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,960
oversimplification. 
And that's the kind of thing 

343
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,960
that he admits he he may have 
done. 

344
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,400
He does not admit that he's 
admitted contradictions in the 

345
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,040
text in order to put you wise to
the fact that he didn't mean 

346
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,520
what he said. 
So the contradictions are trying

347
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,920
to lead you to delve deeper 
within the matter. 

348
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,440
Sure. 
Sure. 

349
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,480
Yeah. 
And it it would it would take 

350
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,040
some time but if you but if you 
read the guide with the 

351
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:32,800
commentary that Professor 
Lieberman and I wrote we we 

352
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,640
pointed out. 
Well, here, here, he. 

353
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,240
Here. 
He's using an assumption that he

354
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,280
rejected elsewhere. 
And I'll give you the the most 

355
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:58,680
famous example. 
Maimonides upholds the creation 

356
00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:59,840
of the world. 
He thinks. 

357
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,400
He says very explicitly that he 
believes that the world was 

358
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:10,520
created from nothing by God. 
That view was considered to be 

359
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,680
impossible by people in the 
Erbilian philosophical 

360
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,240
tradition, which is a tradition 
that he respects greatly. 

361
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,920
And those philosophers like Al 
Farabi and Abbaseta, great 

362
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,480
Muslim philosophers that we 
study, that I teach, they 

363
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,200
thought that that was incoherent
to say that the world was 

364
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,080
created. 
He doesn't think it was in 

365
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,120
incoherent. 
He doesn't think that Aristotle 

366
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:43,800
successfully disproved the 
impossibility and he 

367
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,560
successfully disproved the 
possibility of creation. 

368
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,720
But but he works in a very 
ironic manner. 

369
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,480
He wants to make peace between 
the eternalists and the 

370
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,560
creationists, and he follows the
Muslim philosopher even to file 

371
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,960
who thinks that either way you 
get to the existence of God, You

372
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,960
can be a creationist and then 
you need God, otherwise there 

373
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,960
would be no world. 
Or you could be an eternalist. 

374
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:20,240
And in that case eternal motion 
requires an eternal mover, and 

375
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,760
it's got to be non physical if 
it's going to move things 

376
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,680
eternally. 
That's the argument that he 

377
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,680
uses. 
And so you get to God either 

378
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,400
way. 
Now Ramba believes that not only

379
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,520
was the world created, but he 
believes that that's a better 

380
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,520
argument, that he doesn't think 
it can be proved, but he thinks 

381
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,280
he thinks that it gives you. 
He thinks it's more likely, 

382
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,600
partly because he doesn't 
believe that everything that 

383
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,720
can't exist does exist. 
So there's a rule for God's will

384
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,080
and God's exercise of that will 
in the creation of the world. 

385
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,080
And he thinks that retaining 
God's will gives you a better 

386
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,560
idea of God, not just making God
into a mechanism or an algorithm

387
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,280
of some kind that produced a 
world by a kind of automatism. 

388
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,200
So he's very well motivated. 
He acknowledges that he can't 

389
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,480
prove the world was created, but
he makes a big point of saying 

390
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,640
that it couldn't be proved that 
it was eternal either. 

391
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,360
And he even says, which is kind 
of fun, that Aristotle, who 

392
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:25,040
makes a strong case for the 
eternity of the world, He says 

393
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,040
he knew very well that he wasn't
able to prove it. 

394
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,200
His followers thought that he 
proved it. 

395
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,200
But if you read it, he uses 
persuasive language. 

396
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,640
Aristotle uses persuasive 
languages. 

397
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:41,080
Surely you must believe and and 
Rabab says he wouldn't need to 

398
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,760
use persuasive language if he 
had a proof. 

399
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,520
This is an acknowledgement that 
he didn't have a proof. 

400
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:54,280
So so it's it's he says he says 
with great respect for Aristotle

401
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,880
and he has great respect for 
Aristotle. 

402
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,040
He says he says that it was 
Aristotle who taught us the 

403
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,600
difference between proof and 
persuasion. 

404
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,200
That's where we learn in in 
Aristotle's logic which was the 

405
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,000
first thing Aristotle's the 
first thing about my mom studied

406
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,480
in in philosophy was early early
book that he wrote when he was 

407
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,160
just a kid in his early 20s, 
probably even earlier. 

408
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,640
Nick he studied there was 
dealing in logic as developed by

409
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,720
Al Farabi the Muslim 
philosopher. 

410
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:36,680
But his dialectical argument 
that the world was created. 

411
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:42,520
His persuasion that the world 
was created, His argument that 

412
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:52,440
things exist which don't think, 
thinks not everything that 

413
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,520
exists has to exist. 
Which is a big argument in favor

414
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,120
of a voluntary God who creates 
the world by an act of grace. 

415
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,360
He thinks he's got a better case
there, but he doesn't reject. 

416
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,880
He doesn't retract his idea that
the philosophers have a good 

417
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,800
case, meaning the Arthelians who
think the world is eternal. 

418
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,960
They have a good case. 
We have a good case. 

419
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,760
If they proved that, we would 
have to allegorize the idea of 

420
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,800
creation. 
He acknowledges that. 

421
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,200
But but his his concession that 
the Aristotelian and Theo 

422
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,720
Platonic argument works for an 
eternal world. 

423
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,080
His intention? 
Tensionism. 

424
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,480
Philosopher's polite word for 
contradiction. 

425
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,480
It's in tension with his own 
belief that the world was 

426
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,680
created. 
If he were a dogmatic sort of 

427
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,480
thinker, he would say they were 
wrong and they shouldn't be 

428
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:43,960
dragged out and taken to the 
stake. 

429
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,600
He doesn't think that. 
He thinks, he thinks that we 

430
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,320
have a better view. 
He's more tolerant than that. 

431
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,000
So we see that tension there 
between his use of the 

432
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,960
philosopher's eternalist 
argument, there's one 

433
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,960
possibility, and our own 
creationist argument there's 

434
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,000
another possibility. 
And if they prove that creation 

435
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,320
was impossible, we would have to
give it up and allegorize it the

436
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:14,600
same way we allegorize God's not
having a human form, but but 

437
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,040
that's a that. 
That's a that's a serious 

438
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,160
tension in the Rambam's own 
philosophical writing. 

439
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,200
And we can allow it. 
We can. 

440
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,120
We can see what he's trying to 
do. 

441
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,480
He does not really subscribe to 
the idea that the that the world

442
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,880
could have been eternal. 
He doesn't think they have good 

443
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,720
enough reason for that. 
But they don't have proof, and 

444
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,120
we don't have proof, so we won't
try to make a proof where we 

445
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,520
don't have one. 
That's intellectual honesty. 

446
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,240
So some people might read the 
guide and they'll see his 

447
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:03,320
allowing of of the entertaining 
of of Aristotle and Plato's or 

448
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,440
whatever his views. 
And they might think that oh, 

449
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,560
since he's not like you know, 
definitively you know X ING them

450
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,800
off. 
He might have actually maybe 

451
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,160
even believed it. 
That's where someone would. 

452
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,760
Certainly. 
Making the mistake, but this is 

453
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,600
not. 
That certainly has been done. 

454
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,360
That has been. 
Done. 

455
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,320
But people. 
Oh well, maybe he believed it 

456
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,200
because he leaves room for it. 
He leaves room for it, yeah, but

457
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,360
but people who do that don't go 
on to pay attention to the fact 

458
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:41,880
that he decisively unmanned the 
the Argentilian view. 

459
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,520
He shows that it's not a proof. 
It's not a proof, It's a it's a 

460
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,280
it's a thing that they felt they
had good reason to believe. 

461
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,760
And he's right about that. 
By the way. 

462
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,840
They didn't they didn't have 
logical proof of the eternity of

463
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,320
the world. 
They Aristotle actually thought 

464
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,240
he did. 
He he he he didn't. 

465
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,240
He wasn't. 
He wasn't just trying to be 

466
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,760
persuasive and ignoring logic. 
Aristotle comes from a 

467
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,160
background where the very idea 
of creation is considered to be 

468
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,280
incoherent because you're 
getting something from nothing. 

469
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,600
But of course, round Bob doesn't
think it's really coming from 

470
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,160
nothing. 
He thinks it's coming from God. 

471
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,400
Yeah, I think one of the things 
that people also like to say is 

472
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,200
that he was an Aristotelian 
through and through and and I 

473
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,200
don't see that as the case. 
I think he was very loyal to to 

474
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,080
the Torah obviously, and 
Aristotle's like the the mode of

475
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,000
which reason was used at the 
time. 

476
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,480
So therefore in some places he 
agreed with Aristotle, not the 

477
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,520
case that he did not. 
And this is one of those cases. 

478
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,800
He has the most respect for 
Aristotle of all the 

479
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,960
philosophers. 
But you'll also see as you read 

480
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,200
the commentary in the new 
translation, which is very 

481
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,640
extensive commentary, you'll see
a heavy influence of Plato as 

482
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,320
well. 
Plato and that time was thought 

483
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,199
to have believed that God didn't
really create the world from 

484
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,400
nothing. 
They thought that Plato believed

485
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,600
that God created the world by or
giving order and organization to

486
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,239
pre-existing matter. 
That's a doctrine called 

487
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,920
forbatio mundi, the formation of
the world. 

488
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,000
That's probably not what Plato 
really thought, but it was 

489
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,159
commonly thought that that's 
what Plato believed. 

490
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,000
And Maimonides is explicitly 
dismissive of that view. 

491
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,520
He says that just as bad as 
eternalism, he did respect 

492
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,280
Aristotle enormously. 
He could compare Aristotle with 

493
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,960
with with not only with Plato, 
but with Neoplatonists and and 

494
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,719
Muslim Aristotelians. 
Like you got to remember, the 

495
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,800
Aristotle and Plato were 
conflated in the Greek tradition

496
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,800
and they were they were 
considered about much more 

497
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,480
compatible than they were, let's
say in the Renaissance. 

498
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:11,600
But the he thinks that Aristotle
is the one who's worth arguing 

499
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,360
with. 
He doesn't think that Epicurus 

500
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,800
is worth arguing with because 
Epicurus doesn't really see a 

501
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,840
role for the gods in nature. 
Epicurus believes in the gods, 

502
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,760
but he doesn't believe in 
Providence, then believe in 

503
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,880
judgment. 
He doesn't believe in creation. 

504
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,640
So he says he's going to address
the Aristotelian view because he

505
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,440
thinks that's the best 
philosophical view, and in many 

506
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:41,920
respects he follows Aristotle. 
But on on the matter of 

507
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,280
creation, he thinks that 
Aristotle got it wrong. 

508
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,880
He doesn't think he can prove 
that. 

509
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,840
He doesn't think that anybody 
can prove that, but but he has 

510
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,720
good dialectical arguments to 
make his case that his view is 

511
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:05,200
more probable because it leaves 
you the open future. 

512
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,560
It leaves the the world is not 
totally determinate and 

513
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,720
determined, and it leaves you a 
God who can exercise grace and 

514
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:18,000
free will, not just working 
automatically. 

515
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,000
So theologically it's 
preferable, and 

516
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,840
naturalistically, cosmologically
it's more probable. 

517
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,480
So he thinks he's got good 
reason. 

518
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,720
Having good reason is not the 
same as having proof. 

519
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,880
He's very particular about that.
And how does he know that? 

520
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,760
He says Aristotle taught us the 
difference, right? 

521
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:42,520
He thinks he's got a good 
dialectical argument and and I 

522
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:48,120
don't, I don't think that he, I 
don't think that he's at all 

523
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,920
sort of shaming his opinion 
there or concealing anything in 

524
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,400
in trying to make that case. 
He's very open about it. 

525
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,120
And you know, the another thing 
that I think people make the 

526
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,120
mistake of saying that maybe the
detractors of Rambam, they'll 

527
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,200
say that, you know, Rahman was a
was a dat Yahid. 

528
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,840
He was like a singular kind of 
thinker. 

529
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,440
And it wasn't wasn't in line of 
tradition. 

530
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:18,880
But actually, if you like, you 
were mentioning before the 

531
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,840
contradictions in the Torah, the
Torah itself, you know, it'll 

532
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,400
say, let's say for example, 
it'll describe the form of God 

533
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,600
in a way, like his hands, his 
his finger and so on but then. 

534
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,600
In. 
Yeah, but then in other places 

535
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,880
it says that I have no form, 
right? 

536
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,800
So the Torah does, you know, 
apply this idea of apophatic 

537
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,320
negation, right? 
That's right. 

538
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,240
Apathetic. 
Negative theology is very 

539
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,200
important to the Rambam. 
And negative theology does not 

540
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,240
mean that you peel the onion and
find nothing inside. 

541
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:52,920
It means it means you're moving 
ever more in the direction of 

542
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,720
transcendence. 
And that's that's the move that 

543
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:00,640
Rambam wants to make. 
And it's it's very, very clear. 

544
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,760
He, he, he's very committed to 
the Torah. 

545
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,920
But he thinks that if you're 
going to read the Torah not in 

546
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,480
the way that a child might be 
taught, but if you're going to 

547
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,920
read it in a in a thoughtful and
sophisticated and informed way, 

548
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,960
you're going to have to 
understand that the Torah is 

549
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,720
full of poetry. 
And at the very first page of 

550
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:30,040
the guide, he explains that one 
of the reasons that he's writing

551
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,360
it to this particular disciple 
who had to move to Aleppo is 

552
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,280
yes, I saw what you could do in 
logic, and I saw what you could 

553
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,200
do with astronomy and 
mathematics and this, they're 

554
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,360
all subjects that Ramadan was 
very committed to. 

555
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,360
But when I saw your poetry, when
I saw your macabat, which is a 

556
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:55,320
genre of Arabic literature that 
is a hybrid of poetry and prose,

557
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:03,880
when I saw your macabat, I knew 
that I had to begin to work with

558
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:09,080
you on what the poetry of the 
Torah is. 

559
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,480
Because because if we're going 
to talk about God, we're not 

560
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,680
going to be able to talk about 
God in any direct and literal 

561
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,000
and explicit way. 
We're going to have to use 

562
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,840
metaphors. 
We're going to have to use 

563
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:28,080
poetic expressions that that 
bring people along but but don't

564
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,600
aren't intended to be taken 
literally. 

565
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,720
And for example, there's a 
literature that some Mystics get

566
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,720
quite crazy about called the Shi
or coma. 

567
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:44,200
I'm sure you're familiar with 
it, where they start describing 

568
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,240
God and how how big he is and 
how great he is. 

569
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:55,080
And and the descriptions start 
sounding if if your listeners 

570
00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:00,000
have come across the stories of 
Paul Bunyan, it starts sounding 

571
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,480
like Paul Bunyan's. 
Great blue ox babe. 

572
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,360
The great blue ox that where a 
bird would take years to fly 

573
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,160
from the hip of one horn to the 
tip of the other horn, they 

574
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,120
start getting excessive like 
that. 

575
00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:17,920
They think that they're 
glorifying God, and Maimonides 

576
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,760
finds that kind of approach 
disgusting, he says. 

577
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,240
He says that it's it's dreadful 
that they they thought that they

578
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,920
were We're we're getting at God.
If you want to get closer to 

579
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,080
God, then you have to understand
how utterly transcendent God is,

580
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:43,680
and you have to have a means of 
working towards the highest, 

581
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,520
most perfect reality that there 
could possibly be. 

582
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,200
And I'll tell your listeners and
one of the things that they'll 

583
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,880
see in the Guide, he introduces 
the story of Jacob's vision when

584
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,920
Jacob sees the ladder and the 
angels going up and down the 

585
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:09,080
ladder, and Rambam conflates 
that vision with Plato's Ladder 

586
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,200
of Love in the Symposium, where 
you're starting out with the 

587
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,600
physical and moving from the 
earth on up to the heavens. 

588
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,360
And he conflates it also with 
Plato's divided line, the 

589
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,560
Republic. 
Those of you who who have read 

590
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,560
Plato's Republic know that you 
start out with sensation and you

591
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:34,120
move on to sensory images, and 
you move on from that to 

592
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:39,040
mathematical ideas and finally 
to pure concepts and beyond. 

593
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,760
Pure concepts way up above the 
line. 

594
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:48,120
Just as God is above the ladder 
in in Jacob's vision, way up 

595
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,560
above what we normally would 
call reality is where God lives.

596
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,680
And that relates to you 
mentioned negative theology, 

597
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,480
Apophatic theology. 
It doesn't amount to saying that

598
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,480
God is beyond being, which is 
something that some Platonists 

599
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,840
like to say. 
He thinks that God is beyond 

600
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,680
being in any usual sense of the 
term. 

601
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,920
Why? 
Because God is a necessary 

602
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,120
being, and all the beings that 
we confront in our world are 

603
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,760
contingent. 
They might or might not exist. 

604
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,840
They don't have to exist. 
They only exist because God gave

605
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:33,600
them existence. 
But God is above that ordinary 

606
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,200
sense of being. 
So although we still call God a 

607
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,840
being is the highest necessary 
being, but a necessary being is 

608
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,160
a a totally separate category 
from the contingent beings that 

609
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,080
are the finite realities that we
constantly deal with. 

610
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,120
Yeah. 
And and last thing I wanted to 

611
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,040
say about that, you mentioned 
Shira Coma. 

612
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,360
Also Sadiagon was very much 
against it and it was a kind of 

613
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,480
a proto kabbalistic work for 
those who are listening. 

614
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,600
It was. 
And the fact that they were so 

615
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,400
strongly against it should tell 
you a lot about, you know, the 

616
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,080
Kabbalah that came after, which 
is the Zohar, and so on and the 

617
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,280
one thing. 
I can. 

618
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,520
I can add to that that Sajiga 
own as a very young man was 

619
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,920
interested in the Soviet 0 which
another protocol ballistic work 

620
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,440
because it's going to make 
reality out of letters and 

621
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:33,000
numbers and so forth. 
And he he he tried to encounter 

622
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,120
that, and he found he couldn't 
make sense of it, and so he 

623
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,320
dropped it. 
And that's a that's an important

624
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:44,360
moment of transition in Sajiga 
owns spiritual and philosophical

625
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,800
growth. 
Question for you. 

626
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,760
Do you see a correlation between
Sophia Tira and the Pythagorean 

627
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,480
Pythagorean of? 
Course, yeah. 

628
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,840
That's what I thought. 
Not, not literally Pythagorean, 

629
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,920
but Neo Pythagorean. 
Where? 

630
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,840
Yeah, and that's where that's 
where Gibatria comes from. 

631
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,160
All the letters have numerical 
values, and all the numbers have

632
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,160
spiritual anthological 
significance. 

633
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:16,520
And that's a that's a way of 
trying to bring Neoplatonism 

634
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,240
down to Earth. 
And before we move on to the 

635
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:24,480
next question, I wanted to also 
say that you mentioned how the 

636
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:30,600
Rambam is insistent that one 
must read the Torah not in a 

637
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,200
literal way, in order to get A 
to get benefits. 

638
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,160
It doesn't include the misspoke,
by the way. 

639
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,400
The misspoke you, you know, you 
read the the read. 

640
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,040
The misspoke in the rabbinic 
way. 

641
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:42,280
Yes, yes, yes. 
So actually that's what I wanted

642
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,800
to say. 
It's worth noting that he did 

643
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,760
not just apply that in terms of 
reading the Torah, he also 

644
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,480
applied it in how to read 
rabbinics in terms of Agadah. 

645
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,960
He saw the in the same way. 
If you're going to take rabbinic

646
00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:01,880
exegesis in a literal way, 
you're you're you're destroying 

647
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,920
the whole point. 
That's right. 

648
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,800
And by the way, he happens to be
a past master of doing that. 

649
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,520
So if you think of the Mishnah 
Torah as an exegesis of the 

650
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:21,600
Halaqa, then you've got to think
that Agada is the vehicle of 

651
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,960
Jewish philosophy. 
And what it does is it uses 

652
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:31,360
indirection, it uses poetic 
expressions Rabbinically they 

653
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,840
follow in the spirit of the 
Biblical poetry. 

654
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:41,480
And so if if the the Torah 
represents God as a king, so 

655
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,800
they talk about God as a king 
who has servants and and go 

656
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,640
about doing his business and so 
forth. 

657
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,960
Where Where's the 1st place 
where the Torah talks about God 

658
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,240
as a king where it says Barashi 
Bara elohim attachment to ours? 

659
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,600
Because how does how does the 
king make things happen? 

660
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:05,560
He commands let it be so right? 
Fiat looks he are so. 

661
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,560
So there's an implicit metaphor 
there that God is being 

662
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,800
represented as a king. 
Now we know that literally God 

663
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:17,800
is not a king, but it gives you 
an idea of of how one could 

664
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,160
think about God by that implicit
metaphor. 

665
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,720
And that kind of poetic language
is used throughout the Torah. 

666
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:31,040
And as you say, it's it's picked
up on by the Ramba and he uses 

667
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:36,200
it too. 
And he's he's very good at it 

668
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,720
because he does have a good 
poetic sense himself. 

669
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,320
You know, another thing, before 
we got to the next segment, I 

670
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,000
just wanted to point out that I 
started off saying this before 

671
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,920
that people who are detractors 
of the Ramba will say, well he 

672
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,320
was an original thinker and this
is not in line with tradition. 

673
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,520
But if you look at all of Hazel,
they all basically unanimously 

674
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,920
selected Unkulus as the Targum 
of the Torah, which is he was 

675
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,760
the anthropomorphizing the 
entire Torah and that that was 

676
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,040
the one they chose. 
So obviously everybody kind of 

677
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,160
saw the same thing, anti 
corporate realist, you know, so,

678
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:14,920
So he's very much in line with 
tradition. 

679
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,640
That's right. 
And and he has great respect for

680
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:27,800
Tug of Uncolus and he also puts 
alongside it Ben Rusio. 

681
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,600
That's also the effort for 
Fessing not as systematically as

682
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,880
Uncle is but but he likes that 
and he says at one point you 

683
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,320
know if you if you can't if you 
can't follow the arguments I'm 

684
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,840
laying out here just stick with 
Uncle is he'll he'll keep you on

685
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,080
the right track. 
So that's that's very much no. 

686
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,040
And the other thing, just 
complimentary to what you said 

687
00:47:52,040 --> 00:48:02,800
about how very much in the 
tradition Rambam is he, there's 

688
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,840
all this question about the 
Mishnah Torah because he doesn't

689
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,920
cite his sources. 
But every time somebody goes to 

690
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,520
try and find his sources, they 
find two things. 

691
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,120
One is they always has a source,
and the other is that he's 

692
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,040
usually better at interpreting 
the original biblical text and 

693
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,880
the source than the ordinary 
exegete. 

694
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:31,280
He's very, very good at exegesis
and and leaves them, leaves them

695
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,880
somewhat in the dust. 
But but my motto for the way he 

696
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:41,120
uses those texts, the rabbinic 
texts in the Mishnet Torah, is 

697
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,600
he never goes naked. 
He's always got a text. 

698
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,880
He's always got a text and 
you'll see that you'll see that 

699
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:53,280
in the in the guide as well. 
And he reads those texts very 

700
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,760
creatively, but he doesn't. 
There are there are a few places

701
00:48:58,760 --> 00:48:59,920
where he disagrees with them 
too. 

702
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:05,240
He disagrees, for example, with 
the rabbinic idea of the Issa 

703
00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:08,880
Rai Ahaba, the sufferings of 
love, because he thinks it's 

704
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,080
unbiblical and unjust. 
It makes God unjust, and 

705
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,480
therefore it must be untrue. 
And so he rejects that idea, 

706
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,680
which Sadhya had accepted. 
Sadhya had accepted it because 

707
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,520
it's the rabbinic idea. 
And it's a kind of apologetic 

708
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,960
idea because the idea is, oh, 
you know, the the person who's 

709
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,760
making linen always breaks the 
best flax. 

710
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,760
So God makes us suffer because 
we're the best. 

711
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,720
It's part of our chosen this. 
You can see what motivated the 

712
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,560
idea of the sufferings of love. 
But Rambam rejects it. 

713
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,760
And that's one of the points 
where he says rabbi or no rabbi,

714
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,160
they were wrong and he's not. 
He's not embarrassed to do that,

715
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:57,160
but usually, usually he follows 
them and he works with them very

716
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,880
creatively. 
Excellent. 

717
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,360
So this next one is going to be 
a long winded question. 

718
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,440
It is from one of our friends 
with the podcast friend Brian. 

719
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:13,320
So he submitted this and I just 
want to get a maimonidean 

720
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,800
answer. 
It's basically involving you 

721
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,520
know Unio Mystica or de vecout 
as it's known with the 

722
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,240
unknowable one. 
How is that achievable? 

723
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,360
Also to how do we clarify 
Rambam's view of the active 

724
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,600
intellect for our audience 
before we get to this question? 

725
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,320
Because I think you need to 1st 
establish that because obviously

726
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,800
Rambam and Aristotle they use 
the same language in describing 

727
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,680
the active intellect but they 
meant something else. 

728
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,120
First let me start off with his 
question. 

729
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,240
Menachem Kellner has said that 
Maimonides project was was to 

730
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:50,240
depopulate the heavens of divine
intermediaries in proto 

731
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:53,360
Kabbalist Judaism. 
However, Maimonides theological 

732
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,320
and cosmological system we're 
still dependent upon finite 

733
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,120
created intermediaries, the 
heavenly spheres or intellects 

734
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,720
that orbit around the geocentric
earth which he identified as the

735
00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:08,560
Biblical angels in the guide. 
Maimonides appeal to the 

736
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,120
mediatorial role of the 
intellects in bridging the gap 

737
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,840
between the infinite God and the
finite earth which resides under

738
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,240
the lowest sphere. 
It was through the sun, stars 

739
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:22,240
and planets which their 
associated spheres that God 

740
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:25,920
indirectly delivered Providence,
revelation and miracles to 

741
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,280
humanity, all of which are 
biblical theological categories.

742
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,160
For example, Maimonides said 
that Moses received the 

743
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,560
revelation of Torah when his 
intellectual perception ascended

744
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,160
beyond the lowest sphere up into
the higher intellects, beyond 

745
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,680
the planets, as it were. 
The question this system poses 

746
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,880
is the following. 
Now that we have Copernicus and 

747
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,760
the telescope to tell us that 
the medieval geocentric 

748
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,360
cosmology is wrong, what is a 
contemporary mimonadian to do 

749
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,280
with the mechanics of the 
theological categories? 

750
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,480
It would appear that there are 
only two options. 

751
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,840
Reject that Providence, 
revelation, and miracles occur 

752
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,920
since geocentric systems 
Maimonides posited to enable 

753
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,040
them, do not exist, or else 
retain belief in those 

754
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,000
categories by positing a 
separate theological system that

755
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,480
Maimonides had. 
Maimonides never conceived of. 

756
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,560
Of the Maimonides and scholars 
I've asked this question, I've 

757
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,080
only gotten 2 answers. 
One had Maimonides known that 

758
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,960
his cosmology was incorrect, he 
would have posited another 

759
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,200
system. 
While I agree that only defends 

760
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,360
Maimonides the man and does not 
answer the theological question,

761
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,640
the second answer is the the 
invalidation of Maimonides 

762
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,920
cosmology is the reason why we 
need quote UN quote kabbalistic 

763
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,680
metaphysical worldview as it 
provides for Providence, 

764
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,600
revelation, miracles without 
needing to resort to pre 

765
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,120
Copernican cosmology. 
Is there a better answer? 

766
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,640
Sorry for the long winded 
question but. 

767
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,280
That's a good question, and I I 
have to say by way of preface 

768
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,320
that Rahim Kellner is one of my 
oldest philosophical friends. 

769
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:07,520
He and I have been close friends
ever since the 1970s and he's 

770
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,000
recently retired. 
He's a brilliant scholar and a 

771
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,840
wonderful human being we had. 
Him on the podcast also. 

772
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,840
He's a great guy. 
We had him on the podcast also. 

773
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:23,920
Well, he's he's very well spoken
and I know that that it wasn't 

774
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,680
he directly who raised that 
question, but but it comes out 

775
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:35,680
of his concerns very, very real.
OK, let's start with the let's 

776
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:40,120
start with the geocentric system
and the angels, if you will. 

777
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:49,400
Rampum was a good astronomer. 
He was not a great astronomer, 

778
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,640
but he was up there with the 
best of them. 

779
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,520
In his day. 
He learned from them. 

780
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,840
He studied astronomy. 
He knew it well. 

781
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,760
There was a problem that the 
astronomers of his day could not

782
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:07,000
solve, and it was centered on 
the apparent retrograde motion 

783
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,080
of the planets. 
If you watch the planets very 

784
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:15,120
closely, which very few of us 
actually do, who are not 

785
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,880
professional astronomers. 
But in those days, it was 

786
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,080
something that you, a learned 
person, was expected to know 

787
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:27,800
that the planets were all, as 
the fellows said, geocentric. 

788
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,760
They were like the rest of the 
heavens, orbiting around the 

789
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,280
Earth. 
The sun was also orbiting around

790
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:39,760
the Earth, the moon too, all the
cosmos, Earth was in the center.

791
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:46,360
That's why everything's full. 
Everything was rotating around 

792
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:51,400
the Earth. 
And if that was so, why is it 

793
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:56,040
the case that sometimes some of 
the planets appear to go 

794
00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:59,560
backwards? 
This is called the apparent 

795
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,680
retrograde motion of the 
planets. 

796
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:07,960
I include the word apparent 
because it's very difficult to 

797
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,320
figure out why they would go 
backwards. 

798
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:16,520
There were two prominent 
theories as to how to explain 

799
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,240
that. 
One involved epicycles, and 

800
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,360
people can't see me. 
This is all audio, right? 

801
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,680
If I gesture, if I did gesture, 
all right. 

802
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,200
Picture, Picture Picture a 
skater. 

803
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,040
Pardon me, They can see you. 
Oh, they can. 

804
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:36,920
OK, yes. 
Picture picture a a planet 

805
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,800
orbiting around the Earth. 
And one reason why you might 

806
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,240
think it looks like it's going 
backwards is because it doesn't 

807
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:49,400
loop the loop. 
Just like a skater who's skating

808
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,640
in a circle and does a little 
circle on the circle. 

809
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,680
That kind of circle on the 
circle is called an ampicycle, 

810
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,120
which is just another way of 
saying a circle on a circle. 

811
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:04,520
And when it's doing that motion,
it appears to go backwards. 

812
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:08,880
So we can explain the apparent 
retrograde motion of the planets

813
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:16,440
by positing ampicycles circles 
on circles. 

814
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:22,240
The other prominent explanation 
was eccentrics. 

815
00:56:23,240 --> 00:56:28,520
Let's not say that all the 
planets are orbiting the Earth, 

816
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,840
and the center of the Earth is 
the center of the whole cosmic 

817
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,280
system. 
Let's say that the point at 

818
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:41,120
which they're orbiting is off 
center someplace else, and that 

819
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,000
would give you a mathematical 
model by which you could explain

820
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,520
the apparent retrograde motion 
of the planets. 

821
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:58,240
Grambaum knows those two 
systems, and he knows that 

822
00:56:58,240 --> 00:57:02,440
mathematically they work. 
He says if you take the 

823
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,960
astronomy of Ptolemy, which was 
all translated into Arabic, in 

824
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,440
fact the name that it's given to
this day, the Almagest, is the 

825
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,160
Arabic title of Ptolemy's 
astronomical system. 

826
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,760
You can save the phenomena. 
You can explain the appearances 

827
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,400
on either of those two 
assumptions, and the math works 

828
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,240
fine. 
So fine. 

829
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:33,480
He says that you can predict 
when an eclipse will take place.

830
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,040
Mark Twain to the contrary 
notwithstanding, you can predict

831
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:42,040
when an eclipse will take place,
to the minute when it will 

832
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,360
start, how long it will last, 
when it will end. 

833
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:49,360
The math works fine. 
The physics? 

834
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,960
Not so fine. 
The physics does not work very 

835
00:57:53,960 --> 00:58:01,640
well because if you put the 
center of the cosmos not at the 

836
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,360
center of the earth, you'd have 
a lot of trouble explaining why 

837
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,120
everything is rotating around 
some imaginary point. 

838
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,880
On the other hand, if you have 
epicycles, you'd have a lot of 

839
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:19,320
trouble explaining why these 
uniform motions suddenly become 

840
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,200
not so uniform. 
This was a problem that people 

841
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,880
were working on. 
Every astronomer in the Rambam's

842
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,400
day, Averois. 
Others were working on this 

843
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:33,520
problem. 
Averois wrote about it in his 

844
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:38,440
Commentary on the Aristotelian 
Metaphysics. 

845
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,080
He said when he was a young man 
he thought he could solve the 

846
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,640
problem. 
Now he's an old man and he has 

847
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,760
not solved the problem. 
He hopes that one day somebody 

848
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,560
may figure it out. 
He doesn't know how. 

849
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:58,120
The actual explanation we know 
with the benefit of modern 

850
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:02,320
astronomy, is that we don't have
a geocentric system. 

851
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:07,320
And the you don't need 
epicycles, you don't need 

852
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,280
eccentrics. 
You need to start out with the 

853
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:15,240
the sun in the center of the of 
the solar system and the 

854
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,960
revolutions are around that. 
You're going to need the theory 

855
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,720
of gravity to explain why the 
planets and the and the moon 

856
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:27,480
don't all crash to Earth or to 
or to the sun. 

857
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,680
That it took not just Copernicus
and Galileo. 

858
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,000
It took. 
It took Kepler to describe the 

859
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,440
orbits of the planets as 
ellipses, ellipses that are 

860
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,480
pretty close to circles, but 
they're not, and it took Newton 

861
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:48,720
to explain those. 
Ellipses are results of the 

862
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:53,320
centrifugal force of explained 
by the laws of motion that 

863
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,600
Newton developed and the 
gravitational force that Newton 

864
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,320
explained. 
If you don't have Newton, you 

865
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,920
don't really know why it all 
doesn't just crash to the 

866
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,760
center. 
They didn't have that system. 

867
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,280
And what the Rambam says, which 
is particularly brilliant and 

868
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:14,200
very distinctive on the Rambam's
part, he said it's not the 

869
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,680
problem of the astronomer to 
tell you what the actual shape 

870
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,120
of the cosmos is. 
What the astronomer has to do is

871
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,080
give you the mathematical model 
that would explain that would 

872
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,160
save the phenomenon. 
And he's right about that. 

873
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,720
We would prefer to have that 
kind of picture, that you could 

874
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:35,880
actually build a model that 
would look like it, but you 

875
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,360
couldn't. 
It would get you all filled up 

876
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,920
with the basic assumptions of 
Aristotelian physics. 

877
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:46,640
And he is not prepared to make 
that kind of conflict. 

878
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,360
He thinks that the purpose of 
astronomy is served by what 

879
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,600
today would be called 
instrumentalism. 

880
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,000
That is, we're not, we're not 
really telling what it's really 

881
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:58,640
like. 
We're giving a mathematical 

882
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,000
formula that would allow you to 
save the phenomenon. 

883
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,480
Brilliant. 
Move on the brown bombs part to 

884
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,680
move in that direction of 
instrumentalism. 

885
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:13,760
Pierre Duham, historian of 
cosmology, thought that Rambam 

886
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:17,680
was pretty much unique in in 
adopting that creative move. 

887
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,920
And it's a if you want to, if 
you want to under understand it 

888
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,000
a little better, look at quantum
physics today. 

889
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,320
In quantum physics today, we say
that light sort of behaves like 

890
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,040
particles and sort of behaves 
like a wave. 

891
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,200
And we don't know exactly how to
reconcile those two accounts. 

892
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,440
And you know, my physics teacher
in high school said, well, it's 

893
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,560
a wave. 
That's very nice, but it's not 

894
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:50,320
really an answer at all. 
We're we use instrumentalism 

895
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:55,880
today to say that there's no 
operational meaning for knowing 

896
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,720
the position and velocity of an 
electron at the same time. 

897
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:01,600
You can know its velocity, but 
not its position. 

898
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:03,720
You can know its position but 
not its velocity. 

899
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,160
It's all probabilistic and and 
so forth. 

900
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,800
That's a good example of 
instrumentalism in today's 

901
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,520
physics, where we don't really 
know how to reconcile these two 

902
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:17,680
different, ultimately Newtonian 
accounts of the nature of light,

903
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,000
whether it's a wave or it's a 
particle. 

904
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,280
And in some behavioral 
situations it behaves like a 

905
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:26,440
wave, in some behavioral and in 
experimental situations it 

906
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:36,240
behaves like a particle. 
Well, Rambam has an interesting 

907
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:43,560
story to tell about angels, and 
I want to go to that because we 

908
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:48,600
know, as the questioner rightly 
implies, that the geocentric 

909
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:58,080
system is not correct. 
We know that the heavenly bodies

910
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:06,600
are not inhabited by disembodied
incorporeal intellects which run

911
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:11,760
them and which govern the earth 
through through their their 

912
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:15,520
influence. 
The influences word, influenced 

913
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,160
by the way everyone would like 
to know is actually an 

914
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:23,200
astrological term. 
It means a non physical impact 

915
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,080
and we should come back to that 
idea. 

916
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,760
What does the Rambam say about 
angels? 

917
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:37,600
He tends, on the one hand, to 
follow the ancient Pagan 

918
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:42,760
astronomers and cosmologists and
philosophers who thought that 

919
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,840
the Pagan gods were really 
located in the in the spheres 

920
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,640
and in the stars and in the 
planets. 

921
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,800
And we know that because that's 
why they have their names. 

922
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:57,000
They have Mars and Jupiter and 
Venus all have the names of 

923
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:08,560
Pagan gods, don't they? 
But the the real idea, the the 

924
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:14,880
the the commonplace idea about 
those Pagan gods was that when 

925
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,680
those Greek words got translated
into Arabic, the translators 

926
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,600
politely changed the reference 
to gods to angels. 

927
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:24,320
So they're angels. 
They're not really gods, but 

928
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:29,000
they're subordinate to God. 
Called that time by Him, He 

929
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:32,880
emotionally Mccarriffed Hebel. 
As we say in the Iladon, right? 

930
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:37,840
God imparted the power to them 
to be His overseers on the earth

931
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,360
below, right? 
We sing that in the Iladon. 

932
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:41,720
I can sing it for you if you 
like. 

933
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:52,360
The and the idea of Iladon is to
get people to not be afraid of 

934
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,040
the heavenly bodies. 
They do not think that they're 

935
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,560
awesome and arbitrary 
destructive forces. 

936
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:00,480
That has to do with the 
depopulation of the heavens. 

937
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:05,440
Indeed, the disenchantment of 
the universe and naturalism here

938
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:10,080
goes in hand, hand in hand with 
monotheism. 

939
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:16,720
Because they are subordinate, 
they have delegated powers. 

940
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:20,480
Coach Natan Bahem Leo 
emotionally, the care of Tebel 

941
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:26,280
that God gave them the powers 
they have to be his overseers on

942
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:30,600
the earth below, Well, that's 
all very good and the Rambam is 

943
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,800
sympathetic to that approach. 
However, when the Rambam gets 

944
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:39,200
down down to talking about what 
an Angel really is, he has a 

945
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,440
couple of very interesting 
things to say. 

946
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:44,600
And picking up on what the 
Rabbi's say about it, the 

947
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:48,880
rabbinic literature, they say, 
well there are two kinds of 

948
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,160
angels. 
There are angels that are 

949
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:55,040
permanent, and there are angels 
that do their job, or as they 

950
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,160
put it, sing their song and go 
their way. 

951
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:03,120
They only last for one moment. 
Those two kinds of angels 

952
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:09,480
represent platonic forms. 
Those are the permanent ones and

953
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,720
natural forces. 
Those are the temporary ones. 

954
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:19,320
God governs the world through 
the latonic forms which impart 

955
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:22,040
the ideas, which are the 
patterns according to which 

956
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:28,880
natural objects operate And 
natural forces like what it says

957
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:33,040
in the Torah about God said to 
wing, to blow away the locusts 

958
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,840
or or to bring the quails or 
whatever, right? 

959
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:43,760
Because God, with in and through
nature and the natural forces 

960
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:48,600
are the means by which God 
governs nature. 

961
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:58,520
He has an interesting example of
that in order to show his reader

962
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:08,720
that natural forces are often 
called angels, because the 

963
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,240
question arises with regard to 
Judah. 

964
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:20,520
Judah was supposed to provide 
offspring for his for for for 

965
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:22,520
that that he had failed to 
provide. 

966
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:27,880
You know that that his son had 
failed to provide and she gets 

967
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,160
offspring. 
Tamar gets offspring from him by

968
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,120
pretending to be a prostitute 
and seducing him on the way. 

969
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,960
This other question naturally 
arises that since the Rabbi's 

970
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:47,480
think that all these patriarchs 
are so saintly, why did he stop 

971
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,200
and visit a prostitute? 
She's there, sitting there in 

972
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,960
disguise by the roadside. 
And the rabbi's answer the 

973
01:07:55,960 --> 01:08:02,480
question, The Angel appointed 
over lust made him do it. 

974
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,920
The Angel appointed over lust. 
And the Ron mom uses that 

975
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:11,320
passage to show you that natural
forces can be called angels, 

976
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:19,600
that angels can refer to natural
forces, in this case a, a, A, A,

977
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:24,399
a lustful impulse which led 
Judah to to sleep with her. 

978
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:34,720
That suggests to you something 
about his project in his 

979
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:43,279
interest in naturalizing angels.
Similarly, he says something 

980
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:50,279
rather biting about contemporary
rabbis, many of whom he did not 

981
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:54,359
respect greatly. 
And he says some of those people

982
01:08:54,359 --> 01:09:00,279
who call themselves the Sages of
Israel, if you ask them what 

983
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:05,439
forms the fetus in the womb, 
they will say, oh, an Angel 

984
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:09,319
enters the womb and forms the 
fetus there. 

985
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:18,240
And yet, he says, these people 
believe that an Angel is a fiery

986
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:22,960
force, one third the size of the
entire cosmos. 

987
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,520
Did that really answer the 
wound? 

988
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,760
Is that fire burning inside this
woman? 

989
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,279
They're not thinking things 
through. 

990
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:35,240
The Angel, he said, is the 
natural way in which the fetus 

991
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:37,840
develops. 
These are the forces. 

992
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,640
These are the patterns that God 
has ordained by which life is 

993
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,479
made possible. 
If you told them that they think

994
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:49,399
you were crazed, they would 
dismiss that idea as a radical. 

995
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:52,080
And yet they're the ones who 
think that an Angel is a fiery 

996
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:55,200
Force One third the sides of the
natural world. 

997
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,960
What is he saying? 
That the laws of nature are the 

998
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:03,040
angels by which God governs 
nature, Their forces, their 

999
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:07,600
Platonic forms, They're the 
pattern and nature of things. 

1000
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:14,040
Well, this is, you mentioned 
Kabbalah. 

1001
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:18,120
This is the type of idea that 
Kabbalists tend to vulgarize, 

1002
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:23,080
but but the Neoplatonic idea 
that forms and forces are what's

1003
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:28,440
really meant by angels is where 
the Round Bomb takes that idea. 

1004
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,880
So if you set aside the 
geocentric world, you still got 

1005
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:37,800
God governing and governing by 
way of natural forms and 

1006
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:41,960
intellectual patterns. 
That's going to lead me to say 

1007
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:48,040
something about the contemporary
relevance of the Round bombs 

1008
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:52,560
thinking, and I'm going to press
his idea and I'm going to carry 

1009
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,000
it a little further than he does
in his explicit writing. 

1010
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:05,040
One of the patterns that Ron 
Baum is very interested in is 

1011
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,160
that there are four different 
kinds of causes. 

1012
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:12,080
He gets this from Aristotle, not
just mechanical causes with one 

1013
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:18,880
thing bumping into another. 
There are also teleological 

1014
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,040
causes which involve the purpose
or the good of things. 

1015
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:39,600
They're also the the, the, the 
benefit, the the the. 

1016
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:55,240
Sorry, every every kind of 
'cause that Aristotle describes,

1017
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:03,240
above all the teleological The 
purpose or end of things is part

1018
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,800
of the causation, the idea, the 
pattern. 

1019
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:13,680
The idea is a formal cause. 
The teleological cause is the 

1020
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:18,680
final cause. 
The material givenness of a 

1021
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:23,360
thing is the material 'cause 
that we know. 

1022
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:28,040
If you believe in creation, that
God created the matter, we know 

1023
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:30,080
that God put the matter into 
motion. 

1024
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:35,560
But we also know that that 
motion has a direction to it, as

1025
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:37,720
a good has an end that it 
serves. 

1026
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:42,880
It's not just the kind of 
mechanical 'cause that today's 

1027
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:46,440
scientists then to put the 
emphasis on. 

1028
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,360
That's the one they can 
understand and that's the one 

1029
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:53,000
that they can manage. 
That's where we have control. 

1030
01:12:53,560 --> 01:13:00,760
Today's physics is basically 
about causes that we can control

1031
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:06,880
or judge or measure. 
And Ron Baum thinks there are 

1032
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:10,560
other kinds of causes. 
He gets this from Aristotle, 

1033
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,440
which are not the ones that we 
can manage and control. 

1034
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:22,640
There's a scientist, there's a 
philosopher today named Jake 

1035
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:28,520
Wong Kim who has argued against 
the possibility of free will and

1036
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,080
has argued against the 
possibility of any kind of 

1037
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:37,320
divide involvement in nature. 
And basically what he says is 

1038
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:40,240
that when you're out of 
mechanical causes, or causes 

1039
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:44,480
that can be measured and 
calculated and tracked by 

1040
01:13:44,480 --> 01:13:47,160
physics, you're out of causes 
altogether. 

1041
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:51,840
There'd be no source of such 
causation. 

1042
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:59,800
That's a that's a RE statement 
of the idea that all causes are 

1043
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,080
mechanical causes. 
And we know nowadays that not 

1044
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,680
all causes in physics are 
mechanical causes. 

1045
01:14:06,440 --> 01:14:11,840
There's energy as well as 
physical particles. 

1046
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:18,640
There's radiation, there's 
electromagnetic energy. 

1047
01:14:20,440 --> 01:14:25,640
Physics can encompass all those 
things, but when it does so, it 

1048
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,760
hasn't told you the whole story 
about causation. 

1049
01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:37,920
You can see that in the case of 
evolution, if you think about 

1050
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:44,200
evolution, which is often raised
as an anti religious line of 

1051
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:52,680
argument, evolution involves not
just the change of one species 

1052
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:56,720
into another. 
Evolution involves not just 

1053
01:14:57,080 --> 01:15:01,360
natural selection but through 
natural selection. 

1054
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:03,920
It involves the idea of 
adaptation. 

1055
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:09,480
Adaptation in ancient physics 
and ancient biology was thought 

1056
01:15:09,480 --> 01:15:15,000
to be just a matter of, you 
know, the elephant can use its 

1057
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:19,520
nose to pick up straw or leaves,
something to eat. 

1058
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:25,120
Adaptation was thought to be 
just a fact, something that's 

1059
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:30,640
there. 
Dogs hunt in packs, Cats sing 

1060
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:36,160
who attract friends. 
When you have the idea of 

1061
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:41,240
purpose, that means that there's
something more to adaptation 

1062
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:50,000
than just change of species. 
Now, I wouldn't tell you why 

1063
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:54,560
there are no species. 
Because one type is better 

1064
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:57,360
adapted to its environment than 
another type. 

1065
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:01,960
And that idea of better, that 
idea of better fit, that idea of

1066
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:07,040
adaptation is a process that's 
ongoing and can be explained, is

1067
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:09,920
a very important idea in modern 
science. 

1068
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:15,800
And it can't be explained by 
physics, it can't be explained 

1069
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:19,200
by radiation, it can't be 
explained by mechanics. 

1070
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:29,160
It can only be explained by the 
pursuit of life, the pursuit of 

1071
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:38,920
survival and life for a lineage 
which will stay around only if 

1072
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:45,640
it has a little bit better 
capability of surviving than its

1073
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:49,560
predecessors. 
If the Red Queen says to Alison,

1074
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:55,200
we're looking glass, you've got 
to run pretty fast just to stand

1075
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,320
still. 
And if you want to get anywhere,

1076
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:02,440
you've got to run not just as 
fast as you can, but even 

1077
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:06,480
faster. 
Evolution does that. 

1078
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:09,200
Evolution is pursuit of the 
good. 

1079
01:17:09,480 --> 01:17:13,120
And I'll tell you something that
you're our listeners will be 

1080
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:17,000
very interested in. 
When evolution became a 

1081
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:24,000
prominent theory in the early 
20th century, at the time when 

1082
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:28,640
genetics was just coming into 
play, many geneticists were 

1083
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:33,400
opposed to the idea of evolution
because it was teleological. 

1084
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:37,760
It was looking at trying to 
explain the fit of animals to 

1085
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:41,440
their environment and the 
improving fit, the improving 

1086
01:17:41,440 --> 01:17:46,640
fitness of those plants and 
animals to their echo niches and

1087
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:48,600
to their systems. 
And they thought, that's 

1088
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:52,200
unscientific. 
Darwin has introduced the idea 

1089
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,800
of teleology, which we thought 
we were going to get rid of. 

1090
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,280
We were not going to talk about 
the good of things. 

1091
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:03,600
But without teleology, 
adaptation makes no sense. 

1092
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:09,200
The idea has to be that organs 
and organ systems and behaviors 

1093
01:18:09,480 --> 01:18:14,400
have a purpose, and that those 
purposes can be obtained more 

1094
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:16,560
successfully or less 
successfully. 

1095
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:20,960
There's value built into the 
very idea of biology. 

1096
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:27,520
JBS Halding, who was a prominent
evolutionary biologist, pointed 

1097
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:37,400
out that evolution to a 
biologist is like a mistress to 

1098
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:45,040
a man who's married. 
He can't live without her, but 

1099
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:47,320
he doesn't want to be seen in 
public with her. 

1100
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:53,520
And so biologists tend to avoid 
talking about teleology, even 

1101
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:58,280
though they can't do without it,
because they have to rely on it 

1102
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:03,520
to explain evolution. 
Now, in modern evolutionary 

1103
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:12,440
theory, we have a synthesis of 
genetics with teleology, and 

1104
01:19:12,440 --> 01:19:17,440
we've accepted the idea, which 
is at the heart of Darwinian 

1105
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:23,360
evolution, that organs and organ
systems have purposes. 

1106
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,760
This is something that's well 
known to Maimonides, who after 

1107
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:33,040
all, gets his medical practice 
out of the tradition of Galen. 

1108
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:37,120
Galen, who lived in the 2nd 
century, was the physician of 

1109
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:39,560
Marcus Aurelius, the 
philosophical emperor. 

1110
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:45,400
And Galen knew that organs have 
purposes, that they serve 

1111
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:49,120
functions, and Rob knows that 
that's the case. 

1112
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:52,560
You can't be a doctor if you 
don't know that, because if 

1113
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:56,320
you're somebody has a heart 
problem or a lung problem or a 

1114
01:19:56,320 --> 01:20:00,600
brain problem, that means that 
this organ is not doing what 

1115
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:02,960
it's supposed to do. 
You have to find a way to get it

1116
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:06,720
to do what it's supposed to do. 
All these things have purposes. 

1117
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:18,120
So when Jae Gong Kim says that 
only physical causes are 

1118
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:26,200
acceptable, and he's insisting 
that there are no other kind of 

1119
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:30,040
causes. 
He's intentionally ruling out 

1120
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:33,600
any kind of 'cause that would be
oriented towards value. 

1121
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:38,280
He's giving you no causes that 
would be productive of beauty or

1122
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:42,320
truth or goodness or even 
biological advantage, which is a

1123
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:46,760
kind of goodness. 
Ron Mom is very sensitive to 

1124
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:50,040
that. 
So when he thinks about an 

1125
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:54,640
Angel, that's a metaphorical way
of political way of describing 

1126
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,040
what happens inside a woman's 
womb. 

1127
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:02,200
When he says that an Angel forms
the fetus in there, that has a 

1128
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:06,040
naturalistic explanation. 
But the naturalistic explanation

1129
01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:10,280
is rooted in the fact that this 
fetus is going to turn into a 

1130
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:12,480
human being. 
It has a goal, It has a 

1131
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:16,840
direction, It has an end to 
which it is striving. 

1132
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:20,320
Just as your heart has a 
function, and your brain has a 

1133
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:25,040
function, and your eyes and my 
tongue as I speak as a function 

1134
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:29,120
miss the good of these things. 
That's where the angels come in 

1135
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:34,600
properly. 
Not as guiding the spheres, not 

1136
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:38,520
as steering the planets. 
But where the Angels come in 

1137
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:49,080
properly is in projecting those 
possibilities of improvement. 

1138
01:21:52,120 --> 01:22:03,640
The With that kind of thinking 
in mind, Rambam can say the 

1139
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:08,600
Torah doesn't need to show 
anything about the reality of 

1140
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,840
angels. 
It takes them for granted 

1141
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:16,920
because what it's really 
referring to poetically by these

1142
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:21,360
forces that prophets might 
envision in their imagination as

1143
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:29,760
voices or forms of human beings,
what those really are, are the 

1144
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:36,000
emanation of divine influence, 
influence in the quite proper 

1145
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:40,760
sense. 
Now here's what I want to say 

1146
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:45,800
about that idea. 
It's a neoplatonic idea. 

1147
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:52,240
Rabam has applied it to his own 
sphere, whether it's astronomy 

1148
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:59,720
or biology or medicine, and one 
thing that we can learn from 

1149
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:06,160
Maimonides and that he learned 
from the Neoplatonic 

1150
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:11,720
philosophers like Alfa, Rabi and
Avicenna and Plotinus and 

1151
01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:16,600
Porphyry. 
One of the things he learned 

1152
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:24,240
from them is that what is 
communicated by God doesn't come

1153
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:30,440
by way of poetically represented
servants and messengers, and 

1154
01:23:30,480 --> 01:23:33,840
malak is a messenger. 
Of course, that's a poetic way 

1155
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:39,280
of talking about angels, but 
what's really referred to in 

1156
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:46,000
that regard is the conveying of 
information, the conveying of an

1157
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,760
idea, the conveying of a 
pattern, and a pattern which is 

1158
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:54,600
oriented towards the good, the 
true, the beautiful. 

1159
01:23:56,880 --> 01:24:07,480
That is a different kind of 
causation than the mechanical 

1160
01:24:07,480 --> 01:24:12,160
kind or even the radiation kind.
Radiation might be a metaphor 

1161
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:17,200
for it, as we say that the light
of the sun is a symbolic 

1162
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:22,880
representation of emanation. 
Emanation is the key Neoplatonic

1163
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:27,160
term, and when you read the 
guide you'll see that he uses 

1164
01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:31,240
the idea of emanation that he 
takes from Neoplatonism and 

1165
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:34,640
applies it to all of the 
philosophical problems that the 

1166
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:36,960
guy deals with. 
How did God create? 

1167
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:40,760
How does God govern? 
How does God inspire prophets? 

1168
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:46,440
Always by way of conveying 
information, he makes that the 

1169
01:24:46,440 --> 01:24:49,920
model of charity. 
Most of our viewers will know 

1170
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:55,000
that the most the highest form 
of charity the Rob Bomb talks 

1171
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:57,160
about is to make someone else 
self-sufficient. 

1172
01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:02,360
He doesn't confine that to the 
giving of a gift or support. 

1173
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:08,120
He thinks of that in terms of 
God making us self-sufficient by

1174
01:25:08,440 --> 01:25:12,840
delegating to us the power to 
act and the wisdom to choose 

1175
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:16,640
rightly. 
If we are so inspired, He 

1176
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:21,960
delegates that power to us. 
God imparts ideas to the mind of

1177
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:26,720
prophets, which they then have 
to convey further to people who 

1178
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:29,560
aren't capable of receiving 
those ideas for themselves. 

1179
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:33,480
They pass those ideas along in 
the form of images and poetry 

1180
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:36,640
that people can relate to more 
directly because they take 

1181
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:39,960
concrete symbolic 
representations of what is an 

1182
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:43,920
abstract idea. 
Think about what Neoplatness 

1183
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:48,640
say, Plutonis, who is the 
founder of the Eoplatonism, 

1184
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:57,280
lived in the 3rd century, says 
When I teach somebody, I'm 

1185
01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:02,120
imparting an idea, but I don't 
lose the idea when I imparted 

1186
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:04,880
it. 
It's not like it's not like 

1187
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:08,120
cooking your soup where the heat
goes from here and goes to 

1188
01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:12,720
there. 
You have the idea, and I still 

1189
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:18,400
have the idea. 
Inspiration is a form of 

1190
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:22,160
emanation. 
God is not diminished or 

1191
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:27,920
lessened by imparting the 
energies, which are intellectual

1192
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:36,200
energies, which are teleological
goals that that God gives by way

1193
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:43,640
of governing nature. 
One final thing on that, because

1194
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:47,480
the person who raised the 
question said, well, are we 

1195
01:26:47,480 --> 01:26:49,680
going to do away with all those 
intermediaries? 

1196
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:53,280
I'm afraid we'll have to. 
We don't have the geocentric 

1197
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:56,400
universe, we don't have the 
planets being governed by 

1198
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:00,040
incorporeal intellects and so 
forth. 

1199
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:06,040
Maimonides adopts that system 
and follows it, and it's useful 

1200
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:09,400
to him. 
But remember that Rambam's 

1201
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:14,080
theology is ultimately monistic.
There's one God. 

1202
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:18,120
He's absolutely simple. 
He doesn't really work through 

1203
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:21,720
emissaries and missions and 
servants. 

1204
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:25,240
That's a poetic way, a Levitic 
poetic way of expressing it. 

1205
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:33,840
God does it more directly. 
By the time your viewers see 

1206
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:37,480
this podcast, we'll be 
celebrating Pesach. 

1207
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:42,480
And what happens if Pesach we 
read in the Haggadah is that is 

1208
01:27:42,480 --> 01:27:47,040
that God did this exodus. 
Yes, I see you smiling. 

1209
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:51,000
You're thinking yes, that's more
before though He did it himself,

1210
01:27:51,320 --> 01:27:54,840
not by way of a seraph, not by 
way of any of these angels and 

1211
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:57,120
intermediate forces. 
God did it himself. 

1212
01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:00,040
And that fits very nicely with 
the rob bombs. 

1213
01:28:00,480 --> 01:28:03,680
Monism about God. 
God is absolutely simple. 

1214
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:06,360
God did not embody any 
complexity. 

1215
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:13,280
God is the source of all that 
goodness and all that guidance. 

1216
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:16,720
That's really the difference 
between the ROM bums you and the

1217
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:20,000
kabbalistic of you. 
He's the Kabbalists. 

1218
01:28:20,080 --> 01:28:23,920
The Kabbalists are a watered 
down poor man's version of 

1219
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:26,880
Neoplatonism, but they're 
relying very much on those 

1220
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:28,840
intermediaries. 
So the intermediaries, 

1221
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:32,960
intermediaries have this Bureau.
They agree with the Ram mom that

1222
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:36,320
God is the aim Soph and and and 
absolute and infinite. 

1223
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:40,000
But then they've got to have a 
way of relating that to the 

1224
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:41,640
world. 
So they introduce all these to 

1225
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:43,960
be wrote. 
That's. 

1226
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:49,160
The definition we're going to 
use emanation in in, yeah and 

1227
01:28:49,160 --> 01:28:50,920
exactly. 
But in the Kabbalistic view, 

1228
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:55,880
emanation occurs in the Godhead 
already it's like a it it it 

1229
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:58,280
it's there's a division there. 
Whereas in Maimonides. 

1230
01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:01,240
Yeah, it all gets swallowed up 
inside God. 

1231
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:03,760
My friend David Novak has made 
that point. 

1232
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:12,200
And yeah, it it it's a it's a 
serious issue within Kabbalah. 

1233
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:19,040
But but you see it isn't really 
a third entity between God and 

1234
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:22,800
nature. 
It's God directly governing, 

1235
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:27,240
directly inspiring, directly 
bringing about causation. 

1236
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:32,520
If there's if there's anything 
in between, where was in 

1237
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:36,040
between. 
When we get the inspiration we 

1238
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:39,040
understand it and that brings us
back to the anti active 

1239
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:40,720
intellect. 
So I'll say a word about that 

1240
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:41,840
because that's where you 
started. 

1241
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:49,600
Aerosol deals with the Acts 
active intellect in two 

1242
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:54,840
different texts. 
One of them that most people who

1243
01:29:54,840 --> 01:30:00,600
read Aristotle know is De Anima,
book three, chapter 5, where he 

1244
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:06,360
talks about the active intellect
and compares it to a source of 

1245
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:09,720
light. 
The active intellect makes 

1246
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:15,280
things intelligible in much the 
way, analogously, to the way 

1247
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:19,520
light makes things visible. 
It was potentially visible, but 

1248
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:21,520
we couldn't see it unless there 
was light on it. 

1249
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:28,600
But in the other text where he 
deals with it is a more 

1250
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:32,960
characteristically less familiar
Aristotelian text. 

1251
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:37,720
It's in the Eugenian ethics. 
Everybody reads the Nickelback 

1252
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:43,280
ethics, but the text in the 
Eugenian ethics is is where 

1253
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:49,640
Aristotle says there's a 
question of how a thought 

1254
01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:56,880
process gets started. 
We we can't sort of deliberate 

1255
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:59,400
that we're going to deliberate. 
We can't sort of reflect that 

1256
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:03,600
we're going to start reflecting 
what are we going to do for 

1257
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:07,320
ourselves, up by the bootstraps.
That's not really possible. 

1258
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:12,720
There's only one way that this 
could be done. 

1259
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:16,080
It's done by God. 
He says that. 

1260
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:17,080
He leaned in. 
Ethics. 

1261
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:20,480
It's very nice. 
And you can see the Rambam is 

1262
01:31:20,480 --> 01:31:28,160
thinking along those lines too. 
What's the what's the force of 

1263
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:32,880
that idea? 
In the Middle Ages it was hotly 

1264
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,640
debated whether the acts, 
whether the active intellect was

1265
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:40,520
a separate thing, was it God or 
something that came from God. 

1266
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:45,360
Those those Neoplatonic 
philosophers that Rambam 

1267
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:49,800
followed, Al Farabi and 
Avicenna, I thought the Active 

1268
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:53,720
Intellect was the incorporeal 
intellect of the lowest of the 

1269
01:31:53,720 --> 01:32:01,720
spheres, and it was it was the 
source of inspiration for 

1270
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:03,160
profits and so forth. 
That's the. 

1271
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:07,040
Ishim right in the yes in the 
Torah? 

1272
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:12,800
Yeah, Hi ishim are high angels. 
But think about it for a minute.

1273
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:19,360
And hotly debated in the Middle 
Ages, whether it was a facet of 

1274
01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:23,280
the mind trying to understand 
what Aristotle said. 

1275
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:29,240
Was it a facet of the mind, the 
mind made active and thus 

1276
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:33,920
actually intelligizing or 
thinking or understanding or 

1277
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:37,160
deliberating? 
Or was it some external thing 

1278
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:41,800
that sort of injected this, this
knowledge and this inspiration, 

1279
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:46,760
this thought into your head? 
And you know what was so 

1280
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,000
misguided about that medieval 
debate? 

1281
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,240
And of course the medievals had 
to go at each other over whether

1282
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:56,560
it was hypostatic, external, or 
whether it was internal or just 

1283
01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:59,880
a facet of the mind. 
And if you go back to Aristotle,

1284
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:05,400
who originated the concept, the 
answer is both. 

1285
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:09,800
It's obviously both. 
The point about the active 

1286
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:13,920
intellect is it's the divine 
impinging on your mind and 

1287
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:17,040
giving you that thought and 
making it possible for you to be

1288
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:21,040
the thinker of that thought. 
You become the active intellect.

1289
01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:23,920
It's not just something 
external, but it's not something

1290
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:27,840
you did by your own bootstraps 
either, because your mind is 

1291
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:33,200
God's gift. 
That's in the Shmone Ezra, 

1292
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:35,960
right? 
Funny, a lot of dot dots, right?

1293
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:40,200
God patiencely imparts our 
understanding to us. 

1294
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:44,440
That fits with what I said about
Faceoff, doesn't it? 

1295
01:33:44,800 --> 01:33:49,760
Here's this this absolute, 
infinite, completely 

1296
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:57,040
undifferentiated God, which 
relates to us by way of our 

1297
01:33:57,040 --> 01:34:03,200
intellect. 
That's why it says that we are 

1298
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:06,920
created in the image and 
likeness of God and Ramba. 

1299
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:10,040
I'm glossing that line right at 
the beginning. 

1300
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:13,960
The first chapter of the guide 
says that the reference of the 

1301
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:17,440
image and likeness, you got to 
understand that's poetry, right?

1302
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:22,080
God doesn't have a face. 
God doesn't have an image, the 

1303
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:26,720
image, the reference of the of 
the of the phrase. 

1304
01:34:27,200 --> 01:34:32,000
But Sal moon in God's image and 
likeness, the reference is to 

1305
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:34,200
the same human circle for human 
reason. 

1306
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:36,120
Sorry, I can't hear you said 
something. 

1307
01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:43,800
OK, OK. 
So, So and the answer is it, is 

1308
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:47,800
it internal or external? 
Is it coming to us from God or 

1309
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:50,880
is it something that involves 
our own human freedom and 

1310
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,560
creativity? 
The answer to that disjunction 

1311
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:58,200
is yes, it's both, of course. 
Of course, that's how God 

1312
01:34:58,200 --> 01:35:00,320
relates to us. 
That's how God gives us the 

1313
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:04,280
understanding and the the 
ability to act, the ability to 

1314
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:09,040
operate intellectually. 
So it's exactly parallel to what

1315
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:14,480
I said about Payson, not by way 
of a Sarah, right? 

1316
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:19,720
It's it's by way of nature. 
It's by way of the laws of 

1317
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:22,520
nature. 
It's by what God gives us from 

1318
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:31,760
His own supernal transcendent 
perfection, which is beyond 

1319
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:33,800
anything that we would 
understand by understanding. 

1320
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:36,880
I I've been taking notes as 
you've been saying all this. 

1321
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:38,880
That's why you see my head going
down sometimes, because I'm 

1322
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:41,720
trying to write notes and put 
this together for myself. 

1323
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:44,920
I hope I was more coherent that 
I didn't feel I was it. 

1324
01:35:45,480 --> 01:35:47,000
Was brilliant. 
And it's something that I I'm 

1325
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:48,520
going to have to listen to a few
times. 

1326
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:52,000
I wrote some notes to just to 
kind of outline certain things 

1327
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:54,680
you said, and I wanted to ask 
you if I've been understanding 

1328
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:56,880
it correctly. 
But even before I do that, even 

1329
01:35:56,880 --> 01:36:01,160
before I do that. 
So when it comes to prophecy, 

1330
01:36:03,320 --> 01:36:07,960
you would still posit that 
prophecy does not need any 

1331
01:36:07,960 --> 01:36:13,520
intermediary processes in order 
to get from God to to the 

1332
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:16,000
prophet. 
Actually the Rob Bob thinks it 

1333
01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:18,600
needs a lot of intermediary 
process processes. 

1334
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:22,960
That's why I'm asking. 
OK, let's, let's, let's let's. 

1335
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:25,080
Because in the other everything 
you've said until. 

1336
01:36:25,080 --> 01:36:27,360
Now it's not. 
Magic, right? 

1337
01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:31,040
No, I'm saying everything you've
said till now has been can be 

1338
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:34,320
understood without needing the 
intermediate processes. 

1339
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:36,600
That's why I brought in prophecy
right now. 

1340
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:39,920
Because prophecy as you just 
mentioned the Rahman really 

1341
01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:41,840
relies on it. 
So how do we understand this? 

1342
01:36:42,080 --> 01:36:43,120
And the only. 
Lie. 

1343
01:36:43,160 --> 01:36:45,280
He was a lie prophecy. 
We don't have Judaism. 

1344
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:47,760
Yeah, yeah. 
No the intermediary to get to 

1345
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:48,920
that right? 
No, I understand. 

1346
01:36:49,040 --> 01:36:58,200
I understand the Prophet. 
The Prophet is first of all got 

1347
01:36:58,200 --> 01:37:01,720
to be very well educated. 
He doesn't believe that God is 

1348
01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:07,080
going to give prophetic 
inspiration to a frog, right? 

1349
01:37:07,480 --> 01:37:11,480
And the prophet also has to be 
morally pure. 

1350
01:37:12,480 --> 01:37:19,160
And he indirectly implies that 
Muhammad can't be a real prophet

1351
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:24,680
because he wasn't pure enough in
his physical appetites. 

1352
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:30,880
He doesn't name the prophet 
there, but that's what he's 

1353
01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:37,280
implying. 
And he's got to have the right 

1354
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:40,800
kind of mind in order to have 
the right kind of mind. 

1355
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:44,480
He has to have the right kind of
brain because we're physically 

1356
01:37:44,480 --> 01:37:48,480
embodied beings. 
And here he follows a lady. 

1357
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:53,120
People conventionally like to 
contrast Rambam with Halebi. 

1358
01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:56,920
Oh, Halebi is the man of faith, 
and Halebi believes in language 

1359
01:37:56,920 --> 01:37:59,840
and land and so forth. 
And Rambam is totally 

1360
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:03,800
intellectual. 
Rambam is very intellectual, but

1361
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:07,160
he does believe that you can't 
be a prophet if you're 

1362
01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:10,760
depressed. 
He says that it can't be a 

1363
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:12,640
prophet. 
I mean, he thinks the reason 

1364
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:17,160
prophecy ceased was not because 
God stopped inspiring people, 

1365
01:38:17,400 --> 01:38:21,920
but because when you lose your 
confidence, you lose the land, 

1366
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:30,320
you lose the ability to do that 
kind of poetic rhetoric, that 

1367
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:34,320
poetic expression that would 
give people access. 

1368
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:39,560
A prophet has to be, according 
to the ROM bomb, A prophet has 

1369
01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:44,000
to be an intellectual, A 
philosopher, someone who is 

1370
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:49,560
capable of thinking these higher
thoughts and receiving that 

1371
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:52,800
inspiration, Yes, from the 
active intellect. 

1372
01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:56,560
But bear in mind what I said 
about the active intellect is 

1373
01:38:56,560 --> 01:38:59,480
still applies. 
The act of intellect is, is your

1374
01:38:59,480 --> 01:39:04,320
intellect made active by the by 
by the contact with God? 

1375
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:10,840
And if you don't have the right 
poetic gift, if you don't have 

1376
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:13,920
the right kind of brain, if you 
don't have the right kind of 

1377
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:16,800
language, if you don't have the 
right kind of emotional 

1378
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:20,280
self-confidence, you won't be 
able to be a prophet. 

1379
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:28,920
And Maimonides compares that to 
a kind of miracle that that that

1380
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:31,800
God can his can buy his own free
will. 

1381
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:36,520
You might have all the 
prerequisites, but you still 

1382
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:39,680
can't do it because because 
either your brain is right, or 

1383
01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:42,080
your mood is right, or your your
morals is right. 

1384
01:39:42,080 --> 01:39:47,320
One thing or another. 
A prophet for the Rambam is a 

1385
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:53,320
philosopher who has that extra 
gift of imagination and language

1386
01:39:53,480 --> 01:39:56,480
and the right kind of brain 
matter, size and shape. 

1387
01:39:56,480 --> 01:40:04,600
He goes into all that, and if 
you've got all the intellectual 

1388
01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:08,920
prerequisites, you still might 
not have the poetic gift. 

1389
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:13,080
God might withhold prophecy from
you, and he gives examples of 

1390
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:17,520
people in the guide he names. 
Figures who tried, they were, 

1391
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:20,160
they were disciples of prophets 
and they couldn't get there. 

1392
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:26,320
You know, if you want a 
comparison to to make it very 

1393
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:29,960
accessible, think about think 
about somebody who wants to be a

1394
01:40:29,960 --> 01:40:33,320
concert violinist. 
And he does all the theory and 

1395
01:40:33,320 --> 01:40:36,960
he learns all the music and he 
makes all the movements, but he 

1396
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:41,720
doesn't have that extra gift. 
And he's not, You know, he might

1397
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:45,000
be able to play in an orchestra,
but he's not going to have the 

1398
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:48,600
feeling that that would make him
a concert soloist. 

1399
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,080
That's the kind of thing that 
the Ramba has in mind with the 

1400
01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:54,160
Prophet. 
He's got to have the right 

1401
01:40:55,040 --> 01:40:57,640
imagination. 
He's got to have that poetic 

1402
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:01,360
gift. 
You can go to school and and and

1403
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:05,000
learn how to write, but if you 
don't have a poetic gift, you 

1404
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:08,440
never be a writer. 
That's that's what he has in 

1405
01:41:08,440 --> 01:41:15,640
mind now. 
Now there is, you could 

1406
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:20,400
metaphorically speak of that as 
being imparted by this Angel 

1407
01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:22,720
like thing which is called the 
active intellect. 

1408
01:41:23,240 --> 01:41:26,360
But the intellect, the active 
intellect is just another way of

1409
01:41:26,360 --> 01:41:28,040
saying that you've got the 
inspiration. 

1410
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:32,880
So the mediation, the the, the, 
the, the ontology of it. 

1411
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:36,160
There's not another thing there 
that that is there's mediating 

1412
01:41:36,200 --> 01:41:38,840
between you and God. 
So if he's a lot, if he was 

1413
01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:43,240
alive today, he would have no 
issue saying that there's no, 

1414
01:41:43,240 --> 01:41:46,600
you know, we don't need these 
stages in between the the the 

1415
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:51,120
inspiration could still. 
Be ultimately since ultimately 

1416
01:41:51,360 --> 01:41:56,800
the root of the of of Maimonides
the the Maimonides direction is 

1417
01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:59,320
always going to be towards God's
transcendence. 

1418
01:41:59,840 --> 01:42:06,640
If we have an ability to create 
a a middleman processes that 

1419
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:11,120
doesn't impinge on his 
transcendence, OK, great. 

1420
01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:15,640
But if we don't have that, as 
proven by the geocentric model, 

1421
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:19,360
you know, not working, the 
Rahman will just fall right back

1422
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:22,160
on to where it really all 
starts, which is which is in the

1423
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:24,000
monotheistic conception of God's
transcendence. 

1424
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:26,600
It's going to be direct. 
It's going to be direct. 

1425
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:29,520
Yeah. 
Yeah, that's right. 

1426
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:34,680
All all of that other stuff. 
And that's, you know, he could 

1427
01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:38,400
talk about the Angel appointed 
over lust, but he hasn't really 

1428
01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:41,040
literally believed that there's 
an Angel appointed over lust. 

1429
01:42:41,400 --> 01:42:45,440
You know, the point is the point
is that that that that Judah was

1430
01:42:45,440 --> 01:42:50,640
subject to that as anybody might
have been and and this is what 

1431
01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:55,840
he did. 
And and it was, you could say it

1432
01:42:55,840 --> 01:43:00,080
was nature intervening. 
And so nature gets personified. 

1433
01:43:00,480 --> 01:43:03,480
So you're not doing much better 
than saying an Angel appointed 

1434
01:43:03,480 --> 01:43:10,360
over lust, right? 
It's he likes to. 

1435
01:43:11,080 --> 01:43:15,000
The person who said he wants to 
depopulate the heavens is right 

1436
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:20,040
and that is a basically 
monotheistic move. 

1437
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:25,120
The disenchantment which makes 
physics possible is a 

1438
01:43:25,120 --> 01:43:32,760
monotheistic move and and the we
don't have arbitrary spirits 

1439
01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:36,400
going around doing this and 
that. 

1440
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:44,600
It's it's basically between you 
and God and and the rest. 

1441
01:43:44,840 --> 01:43:48,240
The rest is poetry and it's 
useful poetry because it can 

1442
01:43:48,240 --> 01:43:53,040
enable people to connect and and
and and try and envision these 

1443
01:43:53,040 --> 01:43:55,600
things. 
But you know what? 

1444
01:43:55,600 --> 01:44:02,800
What's symbolized by Jacob's 
Ladder is what's matters, which 

1445
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:09,600
is that there's a, that there's 
a a connection from the latter, 

1446
01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:14,520
which stands on the earth, to 
God, who is at the highest 

1447
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:18,120
degree. 
Degree means steps. 

1448
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:23,160
The steps, What are the steps? 
They're the steps that a human 

1449
01:44:23,160 --> 01:44:28,040
being must go through to 
accommodate, into to to, to 

1450
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:33,280
arise to that, to that level. 
Just like just like in Plato's 

1451
01:44:33,640 --> 01:44:37,920
Symposium with the ladder of 
love, you, you, these are these 

1452
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:42,440
are steps that we have to 
achieve as far as what prophecy 

1453
01:44:42,440 --> 01:44:45,560
would be today. 
He thinks that prophecy could be

1454
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:51,760
restored if we regain our land 
because then we would have the 

1455
01:44:51,760 --> 01:44:54,720
confidence. 
I would add a little bit to 

1456
01:44:54,720 --> 01:44:57,960
that. 
We haven't gained out land, but 

1457
01:44:58,160 --> 01:45:02,520
not uncontested exactly as we 
know today and the horrible 

1458
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:09,480
things that are going on. 
And we haven't necessarily got 

1459
01:45:09,480 --> 01:45:13,640
the moral purity people who 
think they're morally pure 

1460
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:17,720
because they they drive an 
electric car instead of an 

1461
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:21,960
internal combustion engine car. 
I'm not quite as morally pure as

1462
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:27,120
what the round bomb had in mind.
He he he was talking about. 

1463
01:45:27,480 --> 01:45:30,960
He was talking about somebody 
who doesn't talk himself into 

1464
01:45:31,440 --> 01:45:35,160
thinking that he's that that he 
has obtained some kind of moral 

1465
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:38,960
perfection by by being 
politically correct. 

1466
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:45,200
We've got a ways to go, but he 
does not think that it was some 

1467
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:48,720
kind of supernatural thing, like
once we had prophecy and once we

1468
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:53,080
no longer do. 
I would add one thing, however, 

1469
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:58,960
and this This is not something 
that Rambam says, I would add 

1470
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:08,720
that we, in order for somebody 
to be a prophet, there have to 

1471
01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:10,560
be people who's ready to listen 
to it. 

1472
01:46:12,680 --> 01:46:16,360
We don't have that. 
Somebody's standing on the 

1473
01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:19,200
corner and saying, oh, you're 
all doomed or something like 

1474
01:46:19,200 --> 01:46:20,600
that. 
People walk by. 

1475
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:23,800
They, they smile, they laugh, 
they make faces, they make 

1476
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:28,680
gestures. 
That idiom is no longer 

1477
01:46:29,160 --> 01:46:36,280
successful as a way of reaching 
people, and whether there is an 

1478
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:42,800
idiom that could reach people in
in a really important and 

1479
01:46:42,800 --> 01:46:45,760
impressive way, that remains to 
be seen. 

1480
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:50,880
So it's not just a matter of, 
you know, we don't have the 

1481
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:55,520
confidence to speak like 
prophets, we don't have the 

1482
01:46:56,240 --> 01:46:58,920
confidence to listen to 
prophets. 

1483
01:47:00,440 --> 01:47:02,480
So if you're talking about 
somebody trying to do that 

1484
01:47:02,480 --> 01:47:10,000
today, that's a serious issue. 
This was incredible. 

1485
01:47:10,400 --> 01:47:15,000
I want with your permission to 
kind of just give you an outline

1486
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,840
in some of my notes and just if 
you can just let me know if I'm 

1487
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:22,640
on the right track with. 
But I think that I've started to

1488
01:47:24,800 --> 01:47:27,080
you know, get this, but let's 
let's just go through it. 

1489
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:33,160
Your basic idea is, is that 
these intermediate intermediate 

1490
01:47:33,160 --> 01:47:38,480
processes are not necessary to 
achieve the result that 

1491
01:47:38,480 --> 01:47:40,000
Maimonides would want to 
achieve. 

1492
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:46,240
So now with angels, right. 
You made a very, very important 

1493
01:47:46,240 --> 01:47:50,000
point that and I and it's it's 
interesting because a lot of 

1494
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:52,160
times I remember that when 
people, you know, when you say 

1495
01:47:52,160 --> 01:47:56,720
like angels are forces of 
nature, it sounds like it's a 

1496
01:47:56,760 --> 01:48:00,760
almost like a like a cheap way 
of getting around the idea of 

1497
01:48:00,760 --> 01:48:04,720
angels. 
What you said was subtle in that

1498
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:07,520
you're saying that no it's not 
just angels are forces of 

1499
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:09,360
nature. 
It's just a a word used or 

1500
01:48:09,360 --> 01:48:11,880
whatever. 
You're saying that when we use 

1501
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:16,360
angels to portray forces of 
nature, we're trying to elevate 

1502
01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:19,280
nature. 
We're elevating nature more from

1503
01:48:19,280 --> 01:48:22,200
just being natural into 
something that is filled with 

1504
01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:24,760
meaning. 
I think you're right. 

1505
01:48:25,360 --> 01:48:27,640
That's, that's beautifully put, 
Betsy. 

1506
01:48:28,080 --> 01:48:34,720
Because if you think about it, 
when I, when I was speaking more

1507
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:39,600
roughly than I should have about
different kinds of causes, what 

1508
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:45,040
I wanted to get at was that 
beyond radiation, beyond 

1509
01:48:45,040 --> 01:48:50,360
physical mechanism, there's 
there's causes that are 

1510
01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:53,960
elevating. 
It's presupposed in evolutionary

1511
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:57,200
biology, but they're kind of 
embarrassed and shy about it, 

1512
01:48:57,360 --> 01:49:05,800
like JBS Alden said. 
But these are causes that 

1513
01:49:05,800 --> 01:49:14,280
involve, yes, elevating the mind
to a higher plane, as as someone

1514
01:49:14,280 --> 01:49:18,840
might have in poetic inspiration
or or artistic inspiration. 

1515
01:49:19,240 --> 01:49:22,920
And artistic inspiration that 
would really create beauty and 

1516
01:49:22,920 --> 01:49:32,160
not just the novelty. 
And and it would involve the 

1517
01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:35,320
functioning of our organs and 
our bodies, the functioning of 

1518
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:39,960
our mind, the evolution of 
species so that they can become 

1519
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:43,320
more adaptive because they're in
a challenging environment that 

1520
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:45,840
if they don't adapt, they're 
going to die out. 

1521
01:49:48,160 --> 01:49:53,000
That kind of causation is the 
kind that physics doesn't deal 

1522
01:49:53,000 --> 01:49:56,200
with. 
Biology and medicine have to 

1523
01:49:56,200 --> 01:50:00,000
deal with it. 
Psychology has tended to stay 

1524
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:04,600
away from it, but but Mammar 
Dean psychology is very aware of

1525
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:06,280
it. 
So. 

1526
01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:13,320
So you can think of the growth 
of the mind rising to a higher 

1527
01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:16,600
plane. 
Yes, I think, I think you're 

1528
01:50:16,600 --> 01:50:22,400
absolutely right. 
And when it comes to the active 

1529
01:50:22,400 --> 01:50:24,000
intellect? 
Yes. 

1530
01:50:24,240 --> 01:50:27,520
Which is in a sense even bigger 
because it plays into so many 

1531
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:34,960
more fundamental aspects. 
So I understood you correctly. 

1532
01:50:35,360 --> 01:50:38,680
What you're trying to say is, is
that even when you when you go 

1533
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:42,080
look into Aristotle and even 
when you start to pick apart the

1534
01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:46,880
active intellect, at the end of 
the day it's not that your mind 

1535
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:49,000
is going into an active 
intellect. 

1536
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:51,080
We're talking always about our 
own mind. 

1537
01:50:51,440 --> 01:50:55,440
It's talking about the animation
and inspiration that our mind 

1538
01:50:56,120 --> 01:51:01,720
can can can all of a sudden have
a spark with and so it would be 

1539
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:05,880
nice with the concept of active 
intellect it it gives it. 

1540
01:51:06,160 --> 01:51:12,280
You know if we can if the Rambam
who who at that time was for him

1541
01:51:12,280 --> 01:51:15,520
to not believe so, right? 
If the Rambam wants to use 

1542
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:19,520
active intellect as the 
intermediary in in terms of what

1543
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:24,040
inspires our mind, great. 
But if the active intellect 

1544
01:51:24,040 --> 01:51:26,080
doesn't work because we're 
throwing out the geocentric 

1545
01:51:26,080 --> 01:51:31,280
model, that does not mean that 
the same effect can't be caused 

1546
01:51:31,280 --> 01:51:33,520
by God outright. 
That's right. 

1547
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:39,600
You take a word like there's 
some words that have been 

1548
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:47,040
cheapened by overuse. 
Sublime is 1 Sublime meant 

1549
01:51:47,040 --> 01:51:50,560
originally, you know, in the 
18th century. 

1550
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:58,640
It meant a sign or a sight 
experience that was overwhelming

1551
01:51:58,640 --> 01:52:01,800
because you felt like you were 
in touch with something divine. 

1552
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:07,120
And then it became, you know, 
popular pablum of tourists. 

1553
01:52:07,120 --> 01:52:09,880
You know, Niagara Falls is 
sublime. 

1554
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:13,240
And the people who lost the use 
of that word and they just would

1555
01:52:13,240 --> 01:52:18,800
stand there and say, you know, 
well the same sort of thing 

1556
01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:27,160
happened with inspiration. 
Inspiration means that you're 

1557
01:52:27,160 --> 01:52:33,680
getting an idea or trope of 
poetic expression of musical 

1558
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:38,520
inspiration. 
You're saying that that came 

1559
01:52:38,520 --> 01:52:42,000
from God. 
We don't think it has to come 

1560
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:46,760
from a muse. 
We think if it's real and we 

1561
01:52:46,760 --> 01:52:49,600
appreciate God, it's coming from
God. 

1562
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:53,960
That doesn't mean that it's 
coming to everybody the same. 

1563
01:52:54,560 --> 01:52:57,400
It's coming to me. 
I'm going to try and communicate

1564
01:52:57,400 --> 01:52:59,880
it. 
I'm going to try and explain it.

1565
01:53:00,160 --> 01:53:04,960
I'm going to try and share it. 
And if I'm a poet, I'll I'll use

1566
01:53:04,960 --> 01:53:08,760
imagery to try and share it, to 
make it more accessible to 

1567
01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:11,960
people who haven't shared the 
same experience. 

1568
01:53:13,240 --> 01:53:17,200
There's a there's a term of 
right at the beginning of the 

1569
01:53:17,200 --> 01:53:25,640
guide, even before chapter one. 
He talks about lightning 

1570
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:29,440
flashing, and it's an image 
that's used by Avicetta and 

1571
01:53:29,440 --> 01:53:36,560
other Neoplatonic philosophers. 
And sometimes, he says, the 

1572
01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:41,120
light flashes so frequently that
it seems to be continuous. 

1573
01:53:43,040 --> 01:53:45,320
Why? 
Why is it not continuous? 

1574
01:53:45,480 --> 01:53:47,080
Well, because we're human 
beings. 

1575
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:50,920
We live in a temporal world. 
We we don't live in that 

1576
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:56,480
timeless world that we think of 
as a divine world, but it looks 

1577
01:53:56,480 --> 01:53:59,800
continuous to us because it's so
repeated and so steady. 

1578
01:54:02,000 --> 01:54:07,080
And some people, he says, don't 
see that light at all, but maybe

1579
01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:10,280
they see it reflected by some 
shiny object. 

1580
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:17,240
That shiny object, as I 
explained in the commentary, 

1581
01:54:17,440 --> 01:54:19,080
that shiny object is the 
prophet. 

1582
01:54:19,680 --> 01:54:23,440
He gets it directly and he finds
a way of sharing it with others 

1583
01:54:23,440 --> 01:54:26,400
who don't get it directly. 
So they get it indirectly. 

1584
01:54:27,040 --> 01:54:29,720
And that's, that's what prophecy
does. 

1585
01:54:29,720 --> 01:54:33,600
That's what revelatory books do 
for us. 

1586
01:54:35,160 --> 01:54:40,160
They put us in touch with, with 
a, with a source of inspiration.

1587
01:54:40,480 --> 01:54:45,880
In the case of Moshe Rabbanu, 
that inspiration gives you a 

1588
01:54:45,880 --> 01:54:49,880
system of law and a way of life.
In the case of some other 

1589
01:54:49,880 --> 01:54:55,160
prophet, it gives you a vision. 
It gives you a momentary 

1590
01:54:55,200 --> 01:55:02,200
epiphany which he tries to share
in in poetic language mediated 

1591
01:55:02,200 --> 01:55:05,520
by imagination. 
In the case of Moses, it's it's 

1592
01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:13,480
only only his intellect. 
The pellucid lens of of the 

1593
01:55:13,560 --> 01:55:17,000
human mind is the only thing 
between him and God. 

1594
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:23,280
But but in the case of in the 
case of another prophet, it it 

1595
01:55:23,280 --> 01:55:30,320
comes colored. 
It comes by way of the the 

1596
01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:35,760
colored lenses of prophetic 
imagination which which give him

1597
01:55:36,000 --> 01:55:41,680
the poetic tropes that he needs 
to express, to try and convey to

1598
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:47,160
others what he has understood by
way of his imagination. 

1599
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:50,440
And you know and. 
Then when you say this, it it 

1600
01:55:50,440 --> 01:55:54,200
actually makes to me what I just
just kind of popped into my mind

1601
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:58,920
is it's highly unlikely to me to
think that the Rambam would 

1602
01:55:58,920 --> 01:56:04,000
hedge his bet on his entire 
understanding of Judaism by a 

1603
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:08,240
necessary understanding of 
certain intermediate concepts. 

1604
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:14,400
It's very, very difficult 
because A, the Rambam's always 

1605
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:18,600
stress transcendence and 
monotheism in everything. 

1606
01:56:19,720 --> 01:56:23,280
It makes sense to me that if 
he's going to create some 

1607
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:28,320
geocentric model or or however 
even as Benji noted, it has to 

1608
01:56:28,320 --> 01:56:31,360
be post creation. 
A, so that's not even going to 

1609
01:56:31,360 --> 01:56:35,720
ever impinge on God's unity. 
But B, it also doesn't make it 

1610
01:56:35,720 --> 01:56:39,200
necessary, doesn't make it 
necessary that that is 

1611
01:56:39,200 --> 01:56:42,080
necessary. 
Because ultimately when we have 

1612
01:56:42,080 --> 01:56:46,360
this model of transcendence, we 
we don't. 

1613
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:49,680
We're not forced to have to 
explain these things in terms of

1614
01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:54,840
how it gets from point A God to 
B, because we're not. 

1615
01:56:54,840 --> 01:56:57,920
We're not working with. 
He's got, he's got a couple, 

1616
01:56:58,280 --> 01:57:00,040
yeah, yeah. 
He's got a couple of things 

1617
01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:03,400
going on there. 
On the one hand, he wants to 

1618
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:08,200
operate in terms of science as 
known in his day and a science 

1619
01:57:08,200 --> 01:57:10,920
in his day. 
He knows it doesn't quite work, 

1620
01:57:10,920 --> 01:57:14,040
but he's going to work with it 
the best he can, so he's not 

1621
01:57:14,040 --> 01:57:19,200
going to be off by himself. 
Just as he respects the the 

1622
01:57:19,200 --> 01:57:23,280
halachic and the midrashic 
tradition and use it as best he 

1623
01:57:23,280 --> 01:57:27,640
can, he's also going to respect 
the scientific tradition and 

1624
01:57:27,840 --> 01:57:29,600
that's the size that comes to 
him. 

1625
01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:31,960
He's aware of scientific 
progress. 

1626
01:57:32,160 --> 01:57:35,640
I don't think he was aware of 
how radical the process would 

1627
01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:41,120
have to be before you know, the 
habits. 

1628
01:57:41,160 --> 01:57:44,520
The habits would have to be 
turned inside out in order to 

1629
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:48,320
explain a simple fact like the 
retrograde motion of the 

1630
01:57:48,320 --> 01:57:52,640
planets. 
But he he, he wants to use that 

1631
01:57:52,640 --> 01:57:55,840
kind of science. 
He wants to he wants to show you

1632
01:57:56,160 --> 01:58:01,240
that modern science is 
compatible with Tora. 

1633
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:07,800
And he he says a couple times 
that science is makes progress. 

1634
01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:11,640
He does not believe that, you 
know, the decline of the 

1635
01:58:11,640 --> 01:58:14,920
generations. 
He thinks that he thinks that 

1636
01:58:14,920 --> 01:58:18,440
there's progress in Halafa. 
He thinks that there's progress 

1637
01:58:18,760 --> 01:58:24,320
in science as well. 
And like even rushed, he's 

1638
01:58:24,320 --> 01:58:28,080
waiting on there. 
He's he's waiting to see how it 

1639
01:58:28,080 --> 01:58:30,200
all turned out. 
And he didn't live long enough. 

1640
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:33,880
The the centuries that it would 
take just turned out better. 

1641
01:58:34,080 --> 01:58:41,480
And we have to, in similar 
humility, recognize that the 

1642
01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:45,240
science that we have is itself a
work in progress. 

1643
01:58:46,240 --> 01:58:52,000
It's it's it's not bad. 
It's not inferior to religion 

1644
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:54,120
and it goes hand in hand with 
religion. 

1645
01:58:56,240 --> 01:58:58,920
He one one thing he says about 
science. 

1646
01:59:01,440 --> 01:59:06,320
He says this with regard to the 
the mythical music of the 

1647
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:08,760
spheres. 
It was thought by Neo 

1648
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:16,520
Pythagoreans that this that the 
the spheres move so harmoniously

1649
01:59:17,440 --> 01:59:23,840
that they must make music. 
And Ptolemy was entranced by 

1650
01:59:23,840 --> 01:59:26,840
that idea because he liked the 
Pythagorean angle on it, the 

1651
01:59:26,840 --> 01:59:33,160
mathematics of it, because music
is very mathematical and the 

1652
01:59:33,160 --> 01:59:38,480
Rambam picks it up from 
Aristotle that if the if the 

1653
01:59:38,480 --> 01:59:42,480
smears made music we would have 
heard it and we don't hear it. 

1654
01:59:42,480 --> 01:59:44,800
So he doesn't think that it's 
true. 

1655
01:59:45,320 --> 01:59:51,200
And then he says at the end of 
that chapter that we we have to 

1656
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:56,200
follow and he picks this up from
from Khazal, from the from the 

1657
01:59:56,400 --> 02:00:00,280
rabbinic sages. 
He says we have to follow the 

1658
02:00:00,280 --> 02:00:05,480
sages of the nations in in all 
these scientific questions. 

1659
02:00:06,800 --> 02:00:09,800
That's a very, very telling 
remark. 

1660
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:14,720
What it tells us in terms of the
point that you're making is he's

1661
02:00:14,720 --> 02:00:16,840
using the best science that he 
knows. 

1662
02:00:17,760 --> 02:00:20,760
He knows that that science is 
not going to be forever. 

1663
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:23,400
They will be progress. 
They will be new, further things

1664
02:00:23,400 --> 02:00:28,520
learned. 
And our commitment is to this 

1665
02:00:28,520 --> 02:00:33,960
best science that it knows. 
So for example, when it says in 

1666
02:00:33,960 --> 02:00:41,640
the Torah that Joshua is 
fighting a battle and it seems 

1667
02:00:41,640 --> 02:00:47,560
to say that the sun stood still 
and the Catholic Church got into

1668
02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:52,880
great exercise about that and 
then people had to believe that 

1669
02:00:52,880 --> 02:00:57,160
that God made the sun stand 
still in order for the battle to

1670
02:00:57,640 --> 02:01:03,040
be finished completely. 
Probably Rambam says no. 

1671
02:01:03,240 --> 02:01:06,640
What it says. 
If you read the the Hebrew, it 

1672
02:01:06,640 --> 02:01:09,560
says that it seemed the longest 
day of the year. 

1673
02:01:10,160 --> 02:01:17,760
It seemed like like a full day. 
He means subjectively the way it

1674
02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:23,120
felt when they were fighting. 
It seemed like the sun was not 

1675
02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:25,160
setting. 
It was subjective. 

1676
02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:32,360
God didn't make the the the 
whole cosmos sees its motions 

1677
02:01:32,560 --> 02:01:35,400
just to allow the battle to be 
completed properly. 

1678
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:41,360
We follow the teachings of the 
sages of the nations 

1679
02:01:43,600 --> 02:01:45,400
astronomers. 
They don't have to be Jewish, 

1680
02:01:45,920 --> 02:01:50,360
right. 
So that's that's his vision, and

1681
02:01:50,360 --> 02:01:53,240
and it directly addresses the 
point that you were raising 

1682
02:01:53,480 --> 02:02:00,360
about. 
If Rambam were alive today, he 

1683
02:02:00,360 --> 02:02:02,920
would rely on the best science 
that we have. 

1684
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:08,240
But that best science has to be 
sharply distinguished from 

1685
02:02:08,240 --> 02:02:11,960
scientism. 
The idea that mechanical causes 

1686
02:02:11,960 --> 02:02:14,600
are the only causes is a false 
idea. 

1687
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:18,680
The idea that the causes that 
are known to physics, because 

1688
02:02:18,680 --> 02:02:22,120
they're the ones that we could 
control, is a bad idea. 

1689
02:02:22,920 --> 02:02:26,960
We know about theological causes
from biology. 

1690
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:30,320
We know about beauty. 
We know that beauty and truth 

1691
02:02:30,400 --> 02:02:33,280
are real. 
And if you want to picture the 

1692
02:02:33,280 --> 02:02:37,320
active intellect as the source 
of that kind of causation, 

1693
02:02:37,680 --> 02:02:41,280
that's a poetic way of 
expressing the fact that God is 

1694
02:02:41,280 --> 02:02:45,480
ultimately the source of that 
kind of causation that God gives

1695
02:02:45,480 --> 02:02:53,320
us beauty and truth and value. 
Right. 

1696
02:02:54,560 --> 02:02:57,760
This was, this was incredible. 
First of all the question I I 

1697
02:02:57,760 --> 02:03:01,040
almost felt bad asking because 
it was so long, but your answer 

1698
02:03:01,040 --> 02:03:04,400
was so thorough that I feel like
you know we're going to have to 

1699
02:03:04,400 --> 02:03:06,760
go back and listen to it over 
and over again because there was

1700
02:03:06,760 --> 02:03:09,840
a lot there and it you were 
really building it up and and 

1701
02:03:09,840 --> 02:03:13,680
building on you know each point 
and really like creating a 

1702
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:16,800
tapestry. 
So I think that, you know, for 

1703
02:03:16,800 --> 02:03:19,440
us, we're listening to this over
again. 

1704
02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:21,800
We should really appreciate what
you just did because. 

1705
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:24,680
It's it's very, very obvious 
that you care about the 

1706
02:03:24,680 --> 02:03:26,280
question. 
Very, very. 

1707
02:03:26,280 --> 02:03:28,760
Much I I do. 
I have thought about this 

1708
02:03:28,760 --> 02:03:31,840
question both in connection with
Rambam and in connection with my

1709
02:03:31,840 --> 02:03:36,800
own philosophical work. 
I have a a new book that's in 

1710
02:03:36,800 --> 02:03:39,240
the oven right now. 
It's it's going to be published 

1711
02:03:39,240 --> 02:03:44,880
by Cambridge University Press on
God and Truth, and obviously I'm

1712
02:03:44,880 --> 02:03:49,560
inspired by the Rambam, but I'm 
also carrying these ideas 

1713
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:53,920
further in terms of what we know
about cosmology and evolution. 

1714
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:55,520
I'll give you a little kicker on
this. 

1715
02:03:56,760 --> 02:04:01,440
The big problem in Maimonides 
Time was that they thought that 

1716
02:04:02,160 --> 02:04:05,760
creation was illogical and 
possible and so forth, and he 

1717
02:04:05,760 --> 02:04:07,440
showed that it wasn't 
impossible. 

1718
02:04:08,560 --> 02:04:12,920
But he would have given his eye 
teeth to know what we know about

1719
02:04:12,920 --> 02:04:16,920
the redshift because the 
redshift tells us. 

1720
02:04:17,160 --> 02:04:20,560
When I was when I was a kid in 
college, even in Graduate 

1721
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:25,040
School, there were two main 
theses about cosmology, Fred 

1722
02:04:25,040 --> 02:04:32,320
Hoyle's steady state theory and 
the alpha and Beta and Gamma 

1723
02:04:32,600 --> 02:04:38,320
theory about The Big Bang. 
And now we have sufficient 

1724
02:04:38,320 --> 02:04:42,560
evidence to say that steady 
state physics is no longer the 

1725
02:04:42,560 --> 02:04:45,120
right story, that there really 
was a Big Bang. 

1726
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:50,000
If Mam Bam had known that there 
was good evidence to say that 

1727
02:04:50,000 --> 02:04:56,120
the universe began, that proof, 
it's good evidence, but there's 

1728
02:04:56,120 --> 02:04:58,320
good evidence that the universe 
began. 

1729
02:04:59,040 --> 02:05:04,040
He did not think that we could 
have any evidence that he didn't

1730
02:05:04,040 --> 02:05:08,920
realize the astronomy, because 
we know about the redshift would

1731
02:05:08,920 --> 02:05:12,880
tell us that there actually was 
an initial singularity which 

1732
02:05:12,880 --> 02:05:17,080
could be interpreted as the 
moment of creation, you know, 15

1733
02:05:17,080 --> 02:05:20,360
billion years ago that's he 
would have, he would have given 

1734
02:05:20,360 --> 02:05:25,600
anything to know that it's it's 
very rich, it's very powerful. 

1735
02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:28,920
By the way, even Fred Hoyle 
couldn't do without continuous 

1736
02:05:28,920 --> 02:05:32,800
creation because matter had to 
be continuously created in order

1737
02:05:32,800 --> 02:05:36,480
to keep the universe stay state.
But we but we now know that the 

1738
02:05:36,480 --> 02:05:39,200
whole theory was was a good 
theory but was not a correct 

1739
02:05:39,200 --> 02:05:41,240
theory. 
And what seems to be the correct

1740
02:05:41,240 --> 02:05:43,680
theory is that the universe did 
begin. 

1741
02:05:45,480 --> 02:05:48,480
Rambam would have been thrilled 
and delighted to know that. 

1742
02:05:48,480 --> 02:05:52,040
And when you think about the 
fact that people use evolution 

1743
02:05:52,280 --> 02:05:59,120
against theism, when evolution 
gives you a teleological concept

1744
02:05:59,120 --> 02:06:04,280
which supports theism, that 
shows you the kind of rhetorical

1745
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:10,360
bind we're in and the physics 
which does support creation. 

1746
02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:14,120
Oh, that's kind of neglected in 
those discussions. 

1747
02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:18,960
Thank you so much. 
And before we go, we want to 

1748
02:06:18,960 --> 02:06:23,240
want you to plug your your book,
your translation, one more time.

1749
02:06:23,560 --> 02:06:26,600
Let us know how we can get it 
and so on. 

1750
02:06:26,600 --> 02:06:30,160
And also you know, I one thing I
wanted to say that for all our 

1751
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:34,000
Safari listeners you'll find 
you'll be very happy to see some

1752
02:06:34,000 --> 02:06:37,760
great citations in there from 
Bahama, Jose Faour and you'll 

1753
02:06:37,760 --> 02:06:41,280
see Malcolm Calendar and so on. 
So there there are some really 

1754
02:06:41,280 --> 02:06:45,760
good resources that you that you
were influenced by, which is 

1755
02:06:45,760 --> 02:06:48,960
really amazing to see. 
Ben, Ben. 

1756
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:52,960
One of the reasons why a new 
translation was needed. 

1757
02:06:53,080 --> 02:06:57,120
Add a new commentary quite 
beyond the question of Leo 

1758
02:06:57,120 --> 02:07:01,360
Strauss and his 1935 thinking 
about it. 

1759
02:07:02,720 --> 02:07:05,440
There's been a vast amount of 
literature about the brown bomb,

1760
02:07:06,640 --> 02:07:11,120
and we try to reflect that. 
Bill Lieberman and I tried to 

1761
02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:14,880
reflect that in the commentary, 
and it's again reflected in the 

1762
02:07:14,880 --> 02:07:16,440
guide to the Guide. 
They're both published by 

1763
02:07:16,440 --> 02:07:21,720
Stanford University Press. 
They'll be out in May, and I 

1764
02:07:21,720 --> 02:07:26,880
look forward to hearing from 
people who get a hold of the 

1765
02:07:26,880 --> 02:07:32,360
book and and read it. 
They will learn from the Round 

1766
02:07:32,360 --> 02:07:35,680
Bomb, as I did working on that 
book for decades. 

1767
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:40,880
Every day I worked on the guide.
I learned something new every 

1768
02:07:40,880 --> 02:07:45,160
day over a period of decades. 
It's that rich. 

1769
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:48,360
You can learn from it every 
single day. 

1770
02:07:50,760 --> 02:07:53,720
Unbelievable. 
We're so excited for that. 

1771
02:07:53,720 --> 02:07:56,360
And also we're going to 
obviously promote the hell out 

1772
02:07:56,360 --> 02:07:58,880
of that book when it comes out. 
So we're very excited. 

1773
02:07:59,040 --> 02:08:02,240
We are excited for the book and 
we're excited for you. 

1774
02:08:02,320 --> 02:08:06,000
And we are. 
We hope that this is not our 

1775
02:08:06,000 --> 02:08:09,840
final podcast together. 
There is more to unearth, 

1776
02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:12,880
there's more to talk about. 
Like you said with Maimonides, 

1777
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:16,120
there's there's always, always, 
always a conversation to be had 

1778
02:08:16,600 --> 02:08:21,600
and we wish you good health and 
we wish you to enjoy the 

1779
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:24,760
achievements of of decades of 
work that you put into this 

1780
02:08:24,760 --> 02:08:26,640
book. 
And thank you so much for giving

1781
02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:31,320
us the time to elaborate on the 
book and on that major question 

1782
02:08:31,320 --> 02:08:34,400
that we brought up. 
We couldn't have been more 

1783
02:08:34,400 --> 02:08:36,800
pleased and more appreciative. 
Thank you so much. 

1784
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:39,520
Thank. 
You thank you both very much and

1785
02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:44,240
it's been a real pleasure and 
I'm I'm looking forward to 

1786
02:08:44,640 --> 02:08:46,400
seeing the podcast when it's 
posted. 

1787
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:48,720
Let me know and I'll tell my 
friends. 

1788
02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:51,720
And we will be in touch all. 
Right. 

1789
02:08:51,840 --> 02:08:53,360
Take care you're. 
Welcome. 

1790
02:08:53,800 --> 02:09:00,240
Thank you. 
Hey guys, thanks so much for 

1791
02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:02,560
tuning into the Judas and 
Demystified podcast. 

1792
02:09:02,560 --> 02:09:05,600
We really appreciate all your 
support and your feedback. 

1793
02:09:06,320 --> 02:09:09,720
If you want to help us grow the 
podcast, keep spreading the 

1794
02:09:09,720 --> 02:09:12,160
word. 
Share with your friends, family,

1795
02:09:12,160 --> 02:09:13,720
or whoever you think would be 
interested. 

1796
02:09:14,480 --> 02:09:18,040
We also opened a Patreon so you 
can become a patron. 

1797
02:09:18,240 --> 02:09:21,040
Contribute any small amount 
you'd like, which would really 

1798
02:09:21,040 --> 02:09:24,520
help us grow the show. 
Our Patreon is 

1799
02:09:24,880 --> 02:09:31,040
www.patreon.com/judaism. 
Pretty easy to remember. 

1800
02:09:31,440 --> 02:09:34,600
Thank you again and we hope to 
keep putting out great shows for

1801
02:09:34,600 --> 02:09:45,560
you guys. 
Before we go, we want to thank 

1802
02:09:45,560 --> 02:09:50,040
our Patreon supporters by name. 
Those are the supporters that 

1803
02:09:50,040 --> 02:09:53,280
are helping make this show 
happen because frankly Benty and

1804
02:09:53,280 --> 02:09:56,720
I are full time workers who 
don't really have so much time 

1805
02:09:56,720 --> 02:09:59,960
on our hands because we have 
families, we have kids and it's 

1806
02:09:59,960 --> 02:10:03,880
just a passion project that got 
way bigger than we expected. 

1807
02:10:04,400 --> 02:10:07,840
So we're dedicating more time to
this and obviously our 

1808
02:10:07,840 --> 02:10:10,360
production value up until this 
point hasn't been great 

1809
02:10:10,800 --> 02:10:14,760
considering that we film this in
Benzie's basement using a green 

1810
02:10:14,760 --> 02:10:18,600
screen and a crappy little 
microphone and not such great 

1811
02:10:19,160 --> 02:10:21,520
equipment to be honest, I'm sure
you all realize that. 

1812
02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:26,360
So we are hoping to up our 
quality and to get better 

1813
02:10:26,360 --> 02:10:30,480
equipment and part of that 
process is going to be due to 

1814
02:10:30,480 --> 02:10:32,320
you guys, the listeners and 
supporters. 

1815
02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:38,680
If you go to our Patreon page, 
patreon.com/judaism, you will 

1816
02:10:38,680 --> 02:10:40,960
see all the different tiers of 
ways you can help us out. 

1817
02:10:40,960 --> 02:10:44,320
So first of all, we want to 
thank our super patron Jordan 

1818
02:10:44,320 --> 02:10:48,920
Carmeli, our platinum patron 
Craig Gordon, our Gold patrons 

1819
02:10:49,440 --> 02:10:53,200
David Haye, Abram, Khayev, Laser
Cohen, Travis Kruger, Vasily 

1820
02:10:53,200 --> 02:10:59,520
Volkov, Silver patrons, Ellen 
Fleischer, Daniel Maximov, Rabbi

1821
02:10:59,520 --> 02:11:01,760
Penny Rosenthal, and Jeffrey 
Wasserman. 

1822
02:11:02,200 --> 02:11:06,240
Thank you all for supporting the
show and we hope you guys enjoy.