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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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We are joined by Doctor Lawrence
H Schiffman. 

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Dr. Schiffman is a Professor of 
Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New

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York University and director of 
the Global Institute for 

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Advanced Research in Jewish 
Studies. 

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Doctor Schiffman is a specialist
in the Dead Sea Scrolls Judaism 

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in Late Antiquity, The History 
of Halacha and Talmud. 

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He has served as Vice Provost 
for Undergraduate Education and 

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Professor of Judaic Studies at 
Yeshiva University. 

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Dr. Schiffman was featured in 
the PBS Nova. 

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Series, documentary, Secrets of 
the Dead Sea Scrolls and several

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other documentaries. 
Dr. Schiffman's book From Text 

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to Tradition, is a journey 
through the history of the 

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emergence of rabbinic Judaism in
the Second Temple era. 

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Doctor Schiffman joins us now to
talk about the world of early 

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Judaism. 
Without further ado, Doctor 

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Lawrence Shiffman, thank you for
joining the Judaism Demystified 

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podcast. 
Professor Shiffman, it's an 

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honor and pleasure to have you 
on. 

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Thank you. 
So for our viewers who may be 

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unfamiliar, can you provide us 
with an overview of what the 

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Dead Sea Scrolls are, the 
historical context it was 

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written in, and how their 
discovery in the mid 20th 

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century transformed our 
understanding of Jewish history 

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and 2nd Temple Judaism? 
OK, of course the question 

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itself could be a 45 minute 
lecture, but we'll try to get it

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down into a a shorter answer for
this evening. 

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So what we have to understand is
that in the caves and an area 

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called Qumran, and that is not 
the ancient name, that's an Arab

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name for the area on the shore 
of the Dead Sea, beginning in 

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1947 and running through the 19,
mid 50s, approximately 900, I 

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shouldn't say manuscripts that 
we should say better. 

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The remnants of what were 900 
manuscripts from the Second 

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Temple period were found. 
Specifically, these documents 

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were copied between 225 BCE and 
around the turn of the era. 

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We sometimes say the year 0. 
There is no year zero, right? 

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But OK, the turn of the era. 
Now these documents were 

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collected in the library of some
people who had a group of 

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buildings on the shore of the 
Dead Sea. 

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And these individuals represent 
a sect of Judaism from Second 

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Temple times. 
Now most scholars think that 

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they are the Essenes who are 
described by Josephus, although 

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what that word means. 
But there are many similarities 

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between Josephus description and
what we see with the scrolls 

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themselves. 
Now these documents, as I 

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mentioned, are very fragmentary 
and after they were discovered 

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they had to be reassembled into 
a kind of partial jigsaw puzzle.

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Now, I have to say that this is 
not the case with the first 

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seven scrolls that were found by
the famous Bedouin boy who first

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wandered into what we call Cave 
One in 1947 because those 

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scrolls were closer to being 
complete. 

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And in fact, in the case of what
we call the Great Isaiah Scroll,

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it's the entire book of Ishayahu
of Isaiah from beginning to end.

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So those texts were in much 
better shape. 

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But then all those discovered 
afterwards, which are about 900,

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are in this fragmentary form. 
Now we generally believe that 

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these scrolls were gathered by 
the sectarian group, but not 

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that all of them were composed 
by them, because there were 

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three types of literature in the
collection. 

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The 1st is all books of Tanakh, 
except for Esther. 

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Now that isn't exactly true, 
because Ezra and Nachemia were 

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considered one book. 
There is no nachemia, so he 

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could say except Esther and 
nachemia. 

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But also that's Group One. 
Group 2 are texts that were 

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generally read by Jews in the 
Second Temple period. 

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They're what the rabbis in the 
Talmud called sparring kitsonian

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external books. 
That group included some works 

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we knew before, but not in the 
original Hebrew or Aramaic, and 

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some works that we did know 
partially in Hebrew are in 

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Aramaic and some other works 
that we never heard of before. 

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And that's the second group of 
texts. 

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The third group of texts are 
documents pertaining to a 

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sectarian group, the one that 
gathered the library, and they 

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are replete with the particular 
views of the group on all kinds 

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of subjects regarding Second 
Temple Judaism. 

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Now I want to say as a summary 
comment that we have to be very 

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careful in making the false 
assumption that all you learn 

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about when you start to use 
texts are some strange Jews that

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went to the Dead Sea area 
because they didn't want to live

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with their fellow Jews, whether 
in Yerushalayim or some other 

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place. 
We have to avoid that because 

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since the first part of it is 
Bible, the second part of it is 

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the material the Jews are 
reading all over, the reading 

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all over. 
There's so much we can learn 

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about Second Temple Judaism in 
general, about virtually every 

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topic, and even from the 
sectarian documents. 

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They will, for example, 
criticize others for what 

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they're doing. 
So we learn all kinds of things 

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about Second Temple Judaism from
these texts. 

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Now I should say a word about 
what the scrolls are not before 

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so to speak, concluding the 
answer to this rather wide 

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question, and that is they're 
not Christian. 

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They don't mention any Christian
figures. 

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They're pre Christian. 
They may be they are of value in

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understanding the background of 
Christianity because that's in 

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Second Temple Judaism. 
They're also not medieval, a 

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claim that was once made for the
medieval Karaites and the final 

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false claim. 
They are not the Library of 

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Jerusalem or the Jerusalem 
Temple, some kind of official 

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Jewish library. 
They are gathered by a sectarian

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group. 
Fascinating. 

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And I'm just curious to know 
what got you interested in this 

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topic and did that ever affect 
your religious beliefs or 

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observance? 
Well, to start with the question

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of what got me interested. 
It's funny, I was looking for a 

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topic. 
I was studying with a very 

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famous Bible scholar at Brandeis
University and as an 

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undergraduate I was looking for 
a topic for an honours thesis 

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and he was an expert on Tahilim 
Professor Nakhim Sonda. 

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And he suggested to me the 
possibility of comparing some of

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the poetry in the scrolls to 
Safer to heal in the book of 

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Psalms. 
And that was my first research 

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on the Dead Sea Scrolls. 
And then I somehow or another, 

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after taking a few courses in 
Graduate School, seemed to might

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find myself most interested in 
this stuff because you were 

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reading texts and analyzing 
texts that no one was working 

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on. 
But then there was one extra 

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feature. 
I realized very early that there

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was a lack of, we should say, 
background on the part of many 

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of the scholars studying this 
stuff in terms of understanding 

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the texts of early Judaism that 
we already had, the rabbinic 

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texts or the most of the 
material mission of Talbot, 

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etcetera. 
And so I because I knew that 

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material or at least knew how to
study that material, you can 

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really never know all of that 
material unless you're no the 

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building, Oh no, Ravavaggi, 
you're safe or somebody with 

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that kind of of of way of seeing
it all at once. 

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But but but knew how to study it
that I could make a very 

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particular contribution to the 
field that would be helpful. 

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And I never was sure at the 
beginning that it would become 

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such a big area of interest. 
And so then you started to have 

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market forces operating people 
constantly asking me to do 

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things like what we're doing 
right now. 

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And so I have done a lot of 
other research, I'll tell you, I

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actually just recently said to 
press a volume in which I 

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collected together over 40 
articles, scholarly articles 

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that I wrote on non Dead Sea 
skull topics. 

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And I've written books that are 
not Dead Sea skull topics, but I

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don't think too many people know
about that. 

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You get a certain reputation as 
far as I would not say it 

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affected religious observance, 
where it really effects you in a

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certain way, and especially when
you are so close to this. 

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The actual material as opposed 
to the discussion is you really 

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see the continuities of Judaism 
physically in front of you. 

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When you, for example, see the 
excavated mikva out or are you 

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looking the ritual bath or 
you're looking at fill in from 

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that period or actual 
manuscripts of Tanakh from that 

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period, you realize the 
continuity of everything that 

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we're doing. 
So I think that that's a very 

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big area in which it it affects 
you. 

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So I think that's a fair answer 
to that question. 

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Fantastic. 
OK. 

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And second, another question is,
among the diverse texts found 

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within the Dead Sea Scrolls, 
which do you find most 

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compelling or significant for 
understanding the religious and 

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social dynamics of the Jewish 
community of the Quran? 

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Yeah, this is a kind of funny 
question because there's a 

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tendency we all have to answer 
by the material that we work on 

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now. 
I published a couple of years 

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ago after working for 20 years 
on it with a former student and 

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now colleague, Professor Andrew 
Gross of Catholic University of 

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America in in Washington, DCA. 
Whole new edition of the Temple 

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Scroll. 
Now, I've been in love with the 

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Temple Scroll since the day it 
came out. 

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That's actually, let me see the 
the third book that I published 

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on this scroll. 
And so I would certainly want to

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say that this is a very 
important text, but you can't 

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fall into that trap of thinking 
whatever you work on is the most

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important. 
The truth is that every time I 

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turn to another text and begin 
to work at it in in depth, I see

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that there's tremendous amount 
of really interesting stuff in 

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virtually every one of these 
texts. 

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But as I say, in a certain sense
the Temple schools attracted me 

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the most. 
There's a reason for that, 

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because in 1967, when I was 
still a student, I had the great

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opportunity of meeting Yigal 
Yadin 'cause he came to Brandeis

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to lecture on the scroll they 
had recovered during the 67 war.

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What happened was that in in 
1960, someone came to to Yadin 

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and offered to sell him this 
scroll and gave him a few 

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fragments as a sample. 
Yadin gave the guy a $10,000 

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deposit. 
The guy disappeared, never came 

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back. 
So at any rate, the 1967 war 

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came. 
Yadin by that time realized 

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where the scroll was. 
It's possible that he was also 

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tipped off by Professor Frank 
Cross of Harvard. 

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Because Frank Cross was taken, 
you think there's no excitement 

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in this field was taken to some 
type of a dark area under a 

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bridge in Beirut. 
And this fellow named we call 

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Condo, Khalil Iskandar, who 
during the days when Kamran was 

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under Jordanian control from 48 
to 67, he served as the one who 

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bought texts from the Bedouin 
and then sold them to the 

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Palestinian Archaeological 
Museum in East Jerusalem, now 

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the Rockefeller. 
So anyhow, Cross was taken under

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some bridge somewhere in Beirut 
and hustled into a car and a guy

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under a blanket try to sell him 
a text and he said to the guy 

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into the blanket condo get out 
from under that silly blanket 

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and Condo then offered to sell 
in the manuscript in 19th. 

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This this took place 
approximately in May of 67, so 

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he may have tipped off. 
Ross may have tipped off Yadin 

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when the war started and Yadin 
arranged as a result of this for

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Israeli security agents to go to
the home of condo in Bethlehem 

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and to get the scroll. 
They eventually paid him. 

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Now Yadin came to Brandeis to 
lecture about this role. 

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I mean, this was some exciting 
story and I was asked to 

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accompany him back to Providence
in the car. 

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And we were really in luck 
because you didn't didn't know 

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how to get to his house. 
He was a visiting professor and 

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his daughter drove. 
They didn't let him drive 

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because in the army he was the 
commander of the 48 war of the 

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entire Israeli armed forces and 
he couldn't drive. 

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He kept on cracking up army 
cars, so he never drove 

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thereafter. 
And he didn't know how to get to

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his house. 
Remember, there was a time 

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before, not only before your 
phone, but before GPS, right? 

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No ways, nothing. 
Right. 

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He didn't know how to go. 
So we drove around for two hours

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and I got to meet you Go. 
Hell yeah then. 

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So this really excited me, this 
row. 

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I thought maybe I do it for my 
dissertation, but he dragged on 

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publishing it and it didn't come
out until the early 70s. 

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So I didn't do my dissertation 
on it. 

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I did my dissertation on other 
halachic texts, texts of Jewish 

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law from the Dead Sea Scrolls, 
and the minute this text was 

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available, I started working on 
it. 

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And interestingly, some of the 
things that I still write are 

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about that text, even though the
the new edition is out. 

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So it never it never. 
Somehow that text never stops 

228
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,280
interesting me. 
And one of the things that that 

229
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,720
text sort of gave birth to 
indirectly in my work is that 

230
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,560
there's another text which came 
to light only at a conference in

231
00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:20,920
1984 in Yerushalayim. 
And that text is the one we call

232
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,440
MMT, abbreviated Mitsat Masaya 
Torah. 

233
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,080
Some decisions or laws of the 
Torah because of my assay in the

234
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,960
Tombodushalmi means a halachic 
decision. 

235
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:37,840
So anyway, this text is a set is
a is a group of 22 laws in the 

236
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,440
form of a letter from the 
founders of the Dead Sea Scrolls

237
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:46,480
sect to the Jerusalem high 
priests telling them why they 

238
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,160
seceded and why they are not 
going to agree with them as to 

239
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,400
22 laws. 
And these laws are all about 

240
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,880
sacrifices and tumor, batara, 
purity and impurity. 

241
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,680
And when you examine them you 
find out that they take the view

242
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,760
that in the Mishnah is that of 
it's two kids, the Sadducees. 

243
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,360
Remember the Sadducees were the 
sect of high priests in Second 

244
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,720
Temple times and some of the 
aristocracy that competed with 

245
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,280
the Pharisees, the Prussian were
the forerunners in the Talmudic 

246
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,840
rabbis. 
So I jumped into working on this

247
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,800
text also like crazy. 
It's another one of my favorites

248
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,080
and ended up publishing quite a 
bit. 

249
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,280
But what's really interesting is
that this text agreed a lot with

250
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,440
this other one, the Temple Squaw
called the Ilana Mikdash and 

251
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,440
together we're able to put 
together tremendous amount of 

252
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,640
material pertaining to the 
halakhic Jewish law views of the

253
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,560
Sadducees. 
And that is an amazing discovery

254
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,880
for Second Temple Judaism in 
general. 

255
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,400
WAVY. 
I'm talking about some 

256
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,280
characters who assembled some 
manuscripts at the Dead Sea. 

257
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,320
So that's what I said. 
We don't want to study the 

258
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,280
characters, we want to study 
second type of Judaism and these

259
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,920
guys have been of great help in 
learning about it. 

260
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,240
What do we know about the 
Sadducees? 

261
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,640
What do we know about their 
beliefs, their ideas? 

262
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,480
Their. 
Well, you know too much because 

263
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,040
Josephus talks a little about it
and and the Gomorrah has some. 

264
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:21,120
So first of all, on the what 
Josephus tells us, he tells us, 

265
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,400
you see, we have to understand 
something. 

266
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,680
It's a problem here. 
Before we even go on, a lot of 

267
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,800
Sadducees were very Hellenized, 
but other Sadducees were really 

268
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,920
pious calling him and so it 
seems that some pious calling 

269
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:38,120
him found in the Dead Sea Scroll
sect after the Maccabean revolt.

270
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,760
Now therefore, we have to 
differentiate between them and 

271
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,080
the ones that were Hellenized. 
Josephus talks a lot about the 

272
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,720
Hellenized. 
He talks about how they believe 

273
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,200
basically the Epicurean idea 
that God isn't involved in the 

274
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,720
world once he created it. 
They he talks about the fact 

275
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,200
that they basically take 
literalist interpretations of 

276
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,240
the Torah, apparently more 
literalist. 

277
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,680
He says they don't believe in a 
world to come. 

278
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,319
Now when we take a look at the 
Dead Sea Scrolls and we compare 

279
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,920
them to some of the material in 
rabbinic literature, we start to

280
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,480
understand a little bit more 
about the pious Sadducees. 

281
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,359
We're very strict on laws of 
purity and impurity. 

282
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:23,960
Who disagreed with the practices
of the Prussian, the Pharisees 

283
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,160
about some minor what looked 
like minor elements of how to do

284
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,360
the ritual. 
But they even disagree on some 

285
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:34,520
more important questions on how 
to do the ritual and the beta 

286
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,880
Makashi the temple. 
So at any rate, we start to 

287
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,320
understand that we don't know 
that much from Josephus. 

288
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,160
We know some halachic opinions 
in rabbinic literature. 

289
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,080
Just for example, in rabbinic 
literature we know that they 

290
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,520
observed Shavuot on Sunday only 
on Sunday because they began to 

291
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,360
count the Omer mean Muqarada 
Shabbat for the day after the 

292
00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:00,720
Sabbath, which was understood by
them to mean Shabbat Shabbat. 

293
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,720
Whereas the Prussian and this is
the counting of the Omer by all 

294
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,200
Jews who count, the Omer counted
the Omer from the day after the 

295
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,160
first day of passoc which they 
understood to be the quote 

296
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,240
Shabbat meaning like a festival.
At any rate, when we go to the 

297
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,520
densey scrolls and this is at 
the temple scroll and it's in 

298
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,400
this MMT text and it's in about 
25 other texts, we have calendar

299
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,440
texts that give their calendar 
and believe it or not, how do 

300
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,920
you have Shabbat always on a 
Sunday? 

301
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,440
You have a calendar which uses 
solar months and if you have a 

302
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,960
calendar of 364 days, and I know
this is hard to follow quickly, 

303
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:48,360
and you have days of 30/30/31 
30303031 and you have four of 

304
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:55,000
them, a calendar of 300 and 6491
* 4, you end up with a situation

305
00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:00,360
in which you can have Shabbat 
have have Shabuot come out every

306
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:06,600
single year on a on a Sunday. 
But by the way, they start the 

307
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,040
calendar of the old mayor not on
the 1st Saturday night of 

308
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,760
Colomboyt Pasa. 
They started on the 1st Saturday

309
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,960
night after the last day of 
PASSOC. 

310
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,520
And it looks from looking at 
this that this sectarian 

311
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:27,000
calendar was a second Temple 
competing calendar which the 

312
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,640
Sadducees held to. 
So this is how we start to learn

313
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,280
more and more about the 
Sadducees by looking at some of 

314
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,280
the Jewish law type and 
practices of the Dead Sea Scroll

315
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,200
sect. 
But there are some people who 

316
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,320
mistakenly think that, oh, if 
that's the case, they must be 

317
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,040
the Sadducees. 
No, what emerges is there were 

318
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,280
two trends of Halaqah of Jewish 
law in Second Temple times the 

319
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,440
one of the Pharisees, the one of
the Sadducees. 

320
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,280
The Pharisees is the one that 
the Rabbi's follow. 

321
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,080
The one we follow, the Sadducees
went out of use eventually, but 

322
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,520
I can tell you it was followed 
by the Dead Sea Sectarians as 

323
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,240
well. 
It was followed by the medieval 

324
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,880
Karaites. 
And until to to this day there 

325
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,360
are car rides and they follow 
certain of these laws and it's 

326
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:18,520
followed what's followed and and
some level is by the Samaritans 

327
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,320
who are the kutim known from the
Gomorrah and who still exist 

328
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,120
until today. 
Samaritans. 

329
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:29,360
There are two major communities 
of Samaritans, one one near 

330
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,680
Hague Museum in Sham and the 
other one in Cologne. 

331
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,640
Till today in Israel, but. 
I'm just curious to know why 

332
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,200
people let's say equate. 
They kind of consider the karats

333
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,680
to be the spiritual heirs of the
Sadducees. 

334
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,520
When I I see the Sadducees as 
as, as you mentioned, they're 

335
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,840
literalists and karats seem to 
be metaphoric about certain. 

336
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,800
Yeah, You see, this is one of 
the things we learned from the 

337
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,600
Scrolls. 
Because if it's true that the 

338
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:03,120
Sadducee method is shared by the
Scrolls, when you look at the 

339
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,360
way the scrolls interpret the 
Tanakh, you see, especially the 

340
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:10,720
Torah, that it's closer to 
literal but not really literal. 

341
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,080
And I'm going to give you a kind
of Lahav deal comparison. 

342
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,160
So people say that evangelical 
Christians are fundamentalists, 

343
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,600
which means that they interpret 
the Bible literally. 

344
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,360
Do you think there's any 
fundament, any evangelical who 

345
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:26,000
thinks God has an arm? 
So what do we mean they 

346
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,920
interpret the Bible literally? 
It's an overstatement. 

347
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,280
What's made by about 
evangelicals? 

348
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,360
An overstatement made about this
about about the the the 

349
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,000
Sadducees. 
But the reason why Sadducees and

350
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,000
Karaites are considered to 
perhaps have some continuity 

351
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,880
comes from several things. 
Number one, there are some Dead 

352
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,280
Sea Squaw's texts, especially 
the one originally called 

353
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,600
Fragments of its Sanukite work, 
now known as the Damascus 

354
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,720
Document, that somehow found its
way in two manuscripts into the 

355
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,280
Cairo Ganesa. 
And the only way to explain that

356
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,320
is if somebody was reading this 
text, the car rights seem to be 

357
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,560
a logical group for it. 
The second reason is that the 

358
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,480
CAR rights themselves make the 
claim that they go back to the 

359
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,800
Sadducees and have many things 
that are parallel to either 

360
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:21,040
Sadducee halakha or Dead Sea 
Scrolls halakha. 

361
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,360
So one of the possibilities is 
that certain of these practices 

362
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,920
survived underground. 
They weren't observable, but in 

363
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,480
the end they came out of ground 
when the Karai movement began to

364
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,400
coalesce. 
And the history of the Karai 

365
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,400
movement itself is very 
complicated. 

366
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,720
But when it began to coalesce 
that it absorbs some of these 

367
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,120
traditions that had been 
underground, that you don't see 

368
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,920
in rabbinic literature, but that
existed among some groups of 

369
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,960
Jews. 
And the other possibility that's

370
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,440
been suggested is that there are
some claims of discovery of 

371
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,640
scrolls in ancient times and 
early medieval time, that maybe 

372
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,680
some documents that had been 
hidden somewhere from Ron or 

373
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,000
elsewhere may have found their 
way to some of these groups. 

374
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,480
But when you also take the fact 
that the Samaritans are in this 

375
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,960
thing too, it does look like the
Samaritans and the Sadducees. 

376
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,120
They do share a lot of things 
which are found also in the 

377
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,120
scrolls. 
A lot of ideas of specific 

378
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:28,760
Holocaust. 
Let me ask you, when you look at

379
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:37,200
the Pharisees back then, what do
you glean when in regards to 

380
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,240
tradition? 
How do you understand, based on 

381
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,440
all the research that you've 
been doing on it? 

382
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,320
What? 
How? 

383
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,040
How would you understand 
rabbinic tradition? 

384
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,160
Well, you see, The thing is like
this. 

385
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,840
What happens when you study the 
whole Second Temple period and 

386
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:58,080
in fact the history of rabbinic 
material as a historical set of 

387
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:02,720
of documents, you come to 
realize that the story is more 

388
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,040
complex than the way it's 
usually told. 

389
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,920
Let me put it that way, and one 
very good example is this. 

390
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:13,360
We've learned from the sectarian
material that in Second Temple 

391
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,400
times, when the beginnings of 
the mission are taking place, 

392
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,520
there was a competing group 
about whom we knew only some 

393
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,160
nasty remarks about them or why 
they were wrong. 

394
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,040
Now we start to understand not 
just by the Dead Sea Scroll sect

395
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,000
itself, but some of the material
in the scrolls. 

396
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,680
We start to have a much wider 
understanding of the 

397
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,640
intellectual religious ferment 
that was going on in second 

398
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,480
several times. 
And we therefore start to 

399
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,440
realize that there wasn't just 
one group and a couple of 

400
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,560
schleppers that were being 
excommunicated, but that there 

401
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,920
really was a competition in this
in this period. 

402
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,280
And then if you go back and you 
reread even many rabbinic texts,

403
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,440
you'll realize that this is we 
just, we didn't understand that,

404
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,200
but it's it's clear from the 
text that that was the case. 

405
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,560
So that's a big difference 
between, let's call it the 

406
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,480
simplistic way of seeing the 
tradition as if it's the only 

407
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,640
way and assuming that it just 
continuously goes with no 

408
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,400
competition to realizing that 
there was competition, which 

409
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,400
essentially was, you could say, 
defeated by what we consider to 

410
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,400
be the authoritative tradition. 
But the other views did exist 

411
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,080
and you start to understand much
more what was going on in the 

412
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,280
period, as I say, from an 
intellectual and religious point

413
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,240
of view. 
Now, I think it would be 

414
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,680
difficult to maintain an 
academic approach as an Orthodox

415
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,960
Jew if you didn't believe that 
the approach, that one was the 

416
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,160
right one. 
That's a very important point. 

417
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,040
And and what what things have 
you seen that supports that for 

418
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,200
you? 
You mean that that the right 

419
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,400
one? 
Yeah. 

420
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,760
OK. 
So first of all, in many of 

421
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,400
these arguments that are going 
back and forth, you can see 

422
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:14,560
sometimes that the evidence of 
the Tanakh is in favor of the 

423
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,000
rabbinic view. 
Now, this will get into some 

424
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,400
very small technicalities about 
some of these things that are 

425
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,640
being discussed, but you 
sometimes can tell that that's 

426
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,080
the case. 
Then there's another thing. 

427
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:34,160
If you step back and think about
it, why is it the why is it that

428
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,880
the point of view of the 
Prussian and the Rabbis survived

429
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,880
and the other point of view did 
not? 

430
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,280
So part of that answer is in the
inability to use the combination

431
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,360
of interpretation and the notion
of Torres Che Balpe to allow 

432
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:54,360
Judaism to deal with all the 
ongoing challenges that it faced

433
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,240
in different times and places. 
And if you take a look, for 

434
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,480
example, at the history of Kara 
ISM, you see that sometimes they

435
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,520
had no choice but to simply back
down from major positions 

436
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,880
because their system does not 
allow them to deal with these 

437
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,960
things. 
And part of the greatness of the

438
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,800
system that emerges from the 
Gomorrah and then from as it 

439
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,280
goes on through the years until 
today, is the ability to deal 

440
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,760
with these situations and to 
know how to handle a whole 

441
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,480
variety of things that come up 
that no one ever could have 

442
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,600
imagined in those days. 
So when I say it, it looks like 

443
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,520
it's correct, both from an 
interpretive point of view and 

444
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,000
also from the fact that it's a 
successful way for Judaism to 

445
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,760
develop over the ages and to 
maintain itself in ways that 

446
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,920
could not have been done with 
the other systems, as you see 

447
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,320
when you watch what that system 
did in terms of the Samaritans 

448
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:55,120
and the and the car rides. 
Interestingly the the Rambam in 

449
00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:58,840
his in his understanding of 
torch palpet to my limited 

450
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,080
understanding. 
Interestingly, he he sees the 

451
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:07,040
adaptability of Torres Valper as
central. 

452
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,880
Right. 
Its core. 

453
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:10,880
Right. 
This is stated more clearly by 

454
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,160
Ravi Yosef Albow and the safer, 
IE Karim. 

455
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,520
But that's right. 
That is right. 

456
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,760
Now there are some people who 
turn around and say, well, that 

457
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,440
proves that you, you know, you 
can just decide whatever you 

458
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,520
want. 
But no, there's this tremendous 

459
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:32,920
idea of a balance kind of 
conservative along with the 

460
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,440
ability to adapt to new 
circumstances. 

461
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,680
And and and there are certain 
like you could call the rules of

462
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,520
the game of how this proceeds in
a way that it's maintains itself

463
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,200
essentially, you know, in an 
unending way. 

464
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,440
And that is really an amazing 
fact. 

465
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,560
So to some extent the what you 
could call the the victory or 

466
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,000
the winner or whatever it is, is
because the system is right. 

467
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,560
It was a system that allows 
Judaism to continue with its 

468
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,520
basic principles and its basic 
ideas in a permanent way, while 

469
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,160
at the same time dealing with 
the new circumstances. 

470
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,320
And by the way, the interesting 
thing is, but you're not 

471
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,440
supposed to come around and say,
let's change this, let's change 

472
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,040
this that we don't do. 
So this is the interesting 

473
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,560
thing, even though we know that 
if you look at things we are 

474
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,680
doing, they're not the same as 
they used to be done. 

475
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,800
And some of these are almost 
unimportant things, but 

476
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,480
nonetheless you see things being
different than they were. 

477
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,680
There's it's almost like like 
you said, there's a, there's 

478
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,240
like a a balance that's that's 
that's coming through. 

479
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,360
That's right. 
And we maintain that balance. 

480
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,880
And we know how to maintain that
balance by appealing to our 

481
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,480
textual traditions and and 
making use of them to assure 

482
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,960
that. 
Fantastic. 

483
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,560
Thank you. 
By the way, is there in terms of

484
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,320
do we see anything in these 
texts or show that the show 

485
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,720
anything specific that shows 
like how the rabbi's did draw 

486
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,360
from existing traditions? 
No, because you see, we have to 

487
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,960
remember these people oppose our
tradition. 

488
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,600
Now this is the thing that's 
part of his, maybe almost partly

489
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,800
yours. 
I say they oppose our tradition,

490
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,280
but they agree with it all over 
the place. 

491
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,080
What do I mean? 
This is an opposing group that 

492
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,280
leaves Jerusalem, leaves the 
mainstay, where they leave these

493
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,880
people to separate because they 
believe that no one else is 

494
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,320
properly observing the total. 
They think I've had affiliates 

495
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,840
in other places, but this is 
where their main center 

496
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,560
apparently was. 
So what happens is that they 

497
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,520
give us information about things
that pertain to the continuity 

498
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,840
of the rabbis, but they're 
they're constantly criticizing 

499
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,600
the Pharisees. 
Now, while they criticize the 

500
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,960
Pharisees, they do a lot of the 
same stuff. 

501
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,720
Because one of the things that 
we forget very often in Judaism 

502
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,840
is that there's certain basic 
fundamentals that are going to 

503
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,160
say fundamental no matter what. 
So you get, you know, just I'll 

504
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,080
give you a funny example. 
So they, they criticize the 

505
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,960
Prussian all the time. 
The first law of Shabbat they 

506
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,960
have is that Shabbat starts when
the sun is distant from the 

507
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,400
horizon by its own diameter. 
And that's about 45 minutes 

508
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,840
before Shabbat. 
Now, how do they know that law? 

509
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,440
Because they quote the prasuk, 
right? 

510
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,040
Shamor at Yoma Shabbat. 
Look at show now, keep the 

511
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,840
Sabbath to sanctify it. 
If you look up that prasuk and 

512
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,680
see how it's treated by Khazal, 
you'll see, guess what, all the 

513
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,880
people who think that we're 
obligated in a Torah to add time

514
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,400
at the beginning of Shabbat, 
that will give us a little extra

515
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,160
of what we call to Sepa Shabbat 
addition to Shabbat. 

516
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,800
They quote the same thing. 
Now, I that's an example of the 

517
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,240
exact same Shabbat law, but if 
you'll keep going in Shabbat 

518
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,880
laws, you'll find Shabbat laws 
where this group is stricter and

519
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,040
you'll see that in in the number
of places. 

520
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,520
To put it in. 
A funny example, you're not 

521
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,080
allowed to make a salad on 
Shabbat, and I'm not talking 

522
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,520
about chopping little pieces 
like the discussion of Israeli 

523
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,520
salad, you know, like it's all 
got to be done before, not just 

524
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,480
that you have to cook before. 
Everything has to be prepared 

525
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,040
before, so in some cases they're
stricter and yet at the same 

526
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,320
time some things are basically 
the same. 

527
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:35,920
Interesting. 
OK. 

528
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,760
And you go to the next question.
You also find that I've heard 

529
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,120
some people theorize that, like 
when when the Sadisan movement 

530
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,440
kind of collapsed, you see 
remnants of their or sympathetic

531
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,560
Rabbas, let's say in the in the 
rabbinic tradition. 

532
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:50,920
Oh, that's Rabbi Elias a 
Shammati. 

533
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,280
That they rabbi. 
There's one Rabbi that is 

534
00:32:54,280 --> 00:33:00,000
identified in the Gomorrah as 
having been right, not a 

535
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,400
Sadducee but a Shamaite. 
Right Now the better question is

536
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,160
where the Shamaites come in 
this. 

537
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,240
So I would like to suggest that 
if you take a look at the whole 

538
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:16,320
history here, what you can see 
is that there is a set of, you 

539
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,760
could almost call it a process 
of elimination because if you go

540
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,600
back into the Second Temple 
period and we're really talking 

541
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,440
about the period post the 
Maccabean revolt, which was 168 

542
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,160
to 164 BCE and we're really 
talking about the period after 

543
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,080
152 because in 152, that's when 
Yonatan, the Hasmonean, 

544
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:43,480
establishes the Hasmonean 
basically rule because people 

545
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,920
don't realize this. 
But after the Maccabean revolt, 

546
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,080
Yehuda and his followers were 
kicked out of the Bait of 

547
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,840
Macdosh, kicked out of 
Jerusalem. 

548
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:56,200
He was killed in battle in 160. 
So it's only in 152 when Yonatan

549
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,440
is able to take control that the
period of the Kashmora, even 

550
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,760
Nasmonian empire begins. 
Now once you hit that period, 

551
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,120
that's where Josephus says there
are three sects and he mentions 

552
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,480
the Pharisees, the Sadducees and
the Essenes. 

553
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,400
Again, a lot of people think the
Essenes are the Dead Sea sect. 

554
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:17,800
Now basically at that point 
there are two general trends in 

555
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,280
Jewish law and practice. 
The one that we later call 

556
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:26,679
Pharisaic and we call Saducin. 
Now what happens is that when 

557
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,960
you get to the destruction of 
the temple, the Saducin loses 

558
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,920
its power base, the temple, and 
basically stops functioning. 

559
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:40,840
But the question is among the 
Prussian there then takes place 

560
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,560
in inner debate. 
Beit Hillel, Mechamma now now 

561
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,280
Bait Shammai, takes the position
of the stricter ones. 

562
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,440
That is to say that even though 
there was a fundamental 

563
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,120
difference, because the 
Sadducees don't really accept 

564
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,480
the idea of Torre Shabbat or a 
law, and that doesn't exist with

565
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,200
the Shammaites, they do accept 
it. 

566
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,680
Nonetheless, the Shammaites end 
up arguing for stricter view 

567
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,640
than the one of the of the Bait 
Hill that wins out. 

568
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:14,120
Well, the Shammaites basically 
die out and the view of Bate 

569
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,840
Hillel goes forward as the 
normative, more lenient view. 

570
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,800
So it happens twice that the 
system knocks out the stricter 

571
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,360
people 'cause it's still given 
many cases was stricter those 

572
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,720
who are faithful to halakha, not
the Hellenized ones who weren't.

573
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,640
It knocks that out and then 
still again has to knock out 

574
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,040
what you could call not really a
survival of the Sadducees. 

575
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,480
What a group that ends up taking
what we would we would call the 

576
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:47,360
the strict review and when that 
gets knocked out 'cause we 

577
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,840
follow Beit Chamoy in very few 
things, the view of the Beit 

578
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,440
Hill Ale becomes the normative 
view that underlies the 

579
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,200
missioner, even when the other 
view is continuing to be sighted

580
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,600
and even when of course there 
always are stricter views 

581
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,760
rendered than the ones that get 
accepted. 

582
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,520
But that's another matter 
because of the inner debate, 

583
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:10,880
which is just a debate of people
who are running with the Hillel 

584
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,000
view and and the Shama view is 
mostly finished off. 

585
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:19,720
So that process takes place in 
the inner history of of Judaism 

586
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,440
in this period. 
Brilliant. 

587
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,440
So I want to actually discuss 
the variance in the text between

588
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,840
the Dead Sea Scrolls and the 
Masoretic tradition. 

589
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,920
What does this tell us, let's 
say, about the development of 

590
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,160
the Biblical Canon. 
So we have to go back, take a 

591
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,680
step before the answering your 
direct question to explain that 

592
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,920
there were approximately 250 
biblical manuscripts in the Dead

593
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,480
Sea Scrolls. 
As we mentioned before, there's 

594
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,760
some pieces of everything in the
Bible, X in the in the Tanakh, 

595
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,680
except for Esther and except for
nachemia. 

596
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,560
Now when we look, and this is 
especially the case with the 

597
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,920
Torah, when we look at these 
manuscripts, we see that the 

598
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,400
manuscripts come in different 
types. 

599
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,600
And there is one type which 
occupies quite a number of 

600
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,720
manuscripts, probably something 
like 30%, which are very, very 

601
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:23,440
much almost exactly like ours. 
There is a, for example, a 

602
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,760
manuscript of Vallecra which is 
written in the old script which 

603
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,160
is almost letter for letter R 
Vallecra, a few of us and your 

604
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,040
spelling issues and stuff like 
that. 

605
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,880
It's basically the same text. 
There is what we call Isaiah B 

606
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,240
from the original 7 found by the
Bedouin boy with his famous goat

607
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,200
in cave one of Qumran. 
Now, not Isaiah A, which is in 

608
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,920
the middle of the shrine of the 
book of the Israel Museum. 

609
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:52,400
They call us safer. 
But Isaiah B Isaiah B is a proto

610
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,480
Masoretic text almost same as 
ours. 

611
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:56,760
So many, many ones are like 
that. 

612
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,000
Then there are a couple of other
types of texts. 

613
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,200
There were a small number of 
texts that look, they have 

614
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,760
variations that look like 
variations of the Greek Bible. 

615
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,200
They prove that the variations 
of the Greek Bible come from a 

616
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,800
using a biblical text that was a
little different from ours, or 

617
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,200
that some of those variations 
come from that we call those 

618
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,680
Septuagintal texts because the 
Septuagint is the name of the 

619
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Greek Bible, derived from the 
idea that 70 scholars wrote the 

620
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,760
translation. 
Now then we have a few texts 

621
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,480
that we call Proto Samaritan 
because like the later Samaritan

622
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,720
Torah, they have what we call 
harmonistic variants. 

623
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,680
That's where when you're let's 
say relating something in smote,

624
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,480
but they're sukim about it in 
Devarim, you schlep those two 

625
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,040
come in and copy them in here 
and then the second time you 

626
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,880
schlep the smoked sukim into 
into Devarim and it's we call 

627
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:04,520
those harmonistic texts. 
Now, so far I accounted for the 

628
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:10,040
30% Fertile Pharisaic, and maybe
between the two things I just 

629
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,000
mentioned, another thirty, 
another 30%. 

630
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,920
But there's 40% of something 
else. 40% are texts. 

631
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:22,440
About 40% are texts that we call
them mixed texts. 

632
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,000
I mean, they don't follow 
anyone, particularly their loose

633
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,720
texts when compared to the the 
the Masoretic text. 

634
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,840
Now the question comes, how do 
these texts relate one to 

635
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,640
another? 
So now I'm going to tell you 

636
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,040
what I think about this. 
I'm not claiming everyone thinks

637
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,840
this. 
If you examine the majority of 

638
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,400
these, what we call the mixed 
text, or you examine the proto 

639
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,760
Samaritan type text, what you 
find out in all these texts is 

640
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,320
that they're ultimately based on
a text that's very much like the

641
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,520
Masoretic Text. 
So it seems that at some point, 

642
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,880
as the text was being handed 
down, two things were happening.

643
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:08,360
One was that the Proto Masoretic
Text. 

644
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,080
We call it proto because there's
no vowels and there's no. 

645
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,760
Trump there's no Tommy and 
Mccraw, no cancellation marks. 

646
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,720
So that's what we call it Proto 
Masoretic. 

647
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,440
In the Proto Masoretic Text when
it was being passed down, it was

648
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,920
going through a standardization 
process and at the same time 

649
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,600
there were other texts floating 
around and it seems that there 

650
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:38,440
was tendency of some scribes or 
or passers down of the text to 

651
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,000
expand texts ought to in some 
cases write texts. 

652
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,920
And this is another matter in a 
different dialect of Hebrew 

653
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,040
because Isaiah A is in a 
different dialect of Hebrew and 

654
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:55,440
these coexisted with the 
authoritative type text and in 

655
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,520
some extent they're based on it 
and represent adaptations of it.

656
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,360
Now when we go from Quran where 
this situation obtains, to 

657
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:10,680
Masada and the Barkova caves 
where we have texts of the 

658
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,160
Bible, less manuscripts what we 
have texted the Bible. 

659
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,040
Guess what, They're all proto 
Masoretic. 

660
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,160
So what is apparent is that 
between the period in which the 

661
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,240
Dead Sea Scrolls materials were 
gathered, admittedly by a group 

662
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:29,160
of sectarian Jews, where they at
least were tolerating the 

663
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,120
variety of versions besides what
we would consider to be the 

664
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,400
authoritative Masoretic text. 
Besides that, right, they had 

665
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,560
these other ones. 
But the minute we get to the 

666
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,720
period a little later, Masada 
remember Qumran is destroyed in 

667
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:49,240
the year 68 CE, but the texts 
are gathered earlier, Masada is 

668
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:53,280
destroyed in 73 CE, both of 
course destroyed by the Romans. 

669
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:58,560
Now when we get to the Marcopa 
caves 1:32 to 5:00 again beside 

670
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,840
of the Marcopa Caves only proto 
Masoretic Text. 

671
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,840
And this indeed is the period in
which it seems that the leaders 

672
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,320
of the time of him, teachers of 
the Mishnah, perhaps on in 

673
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,640
cooperation with Ko on him in 
the Beta Mikdash managed to 

674
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,760
standardize that the Proto 
Masoretic is the authoritative 

675
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,520
correct text. 
Now one other point I want to 

676
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,000
make. 
I mentioned the Beta Mikdash 

677
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,960
because there are some texts of 
the Gomorrah that hinted the 

678
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,640
fact that they were official 
correctors of Bible texts in the

679
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,720
Beta Mikdash, Maggie Sparim as 
they call, and that they made 

680
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:39,240
sure that the Bible text 
gradually got standardized to 

681
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:41,400
the authoritative proto 
Masoretic. 

682
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,760
Once we hit the period of Mark 
Hockbart 132 to 5. 

683
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,960
Now we're still before the 
editing, the missioner. 

684
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,440
There's only one kind of text, 
and it is the authoritative one,

685
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,240
and that is what seems to have 
happened now. 

686
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,960
The argument I'm making, though,
is that the Proto Masoretic is 

687
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,560
the earliest form of the text. 
And let me explain that argument

688
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,600
for a second. 
If you take a look at the Hebrew

689
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,840
of the Masoretic Text, and even 
if you do, what's do it, forget 

690
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,520
a Qumran manuscript, you could 
open up your regular Tanakh and 

691
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,000
do it. 
And you compare that to ancient 

692
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,560
inscriptions that we have from 
the First Temple period, you 

693
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,720
will find out that the First 
Temple Hebrew in the Tanakh is 

694
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:32,640
the First Temple Hebrew of the 
inscriptions with just a bit 

695
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,080
more standardization of of 
spelling. 

696
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:41,880
And when we look at the highly 
expansive use of above and Yud 

697
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,320
in some of these other types of 
Bible manuscripts where excess, 

698
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,560
excess vowel letters, we can see
that what's happened is that 

699
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,640
those are expanded texts and 
that the Proto Masoretic 

700
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,240
represents the earlier form of 
First Temple Hebrew. 

701
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,800
Of course there are some books 
written in Second Temple Hebrew 

702
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,920
and they tend to be moving away 
from the the nature of the of 

703
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,240
the way in which the the style 
is when compared to 1st Temple 

704
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:09,000
style. 
But they they were also Proto 

705
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,680
Masoretic well. 
What about like texts, for 

706
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,360
example, in the Chemia, there's,
you know, kind of a switching 

707
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,680
off between Hebrew and Aramaic, 
yes. 

708
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,880
So what do they make? 
What do you make of that? 

709
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,040
Well, that's because they're 
almost everything in Aramaic in 

710
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,240
the biblical books. 
Ezra nephemia. 

711
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,120
It's documents. 
They copy documents. 

712
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,680
And Aramaic was the language on 
which all those documents were 

713
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,240
written. 
So that's what's mostly going on

714
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:37,680
there. 
Of course, Aramaic replaces 

715
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,000
Hebrew as the main language of 
the Jews in the Persian period. 

716
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:47,960
That is to say after the 
conquest of Babylonia by Cyrus 

717
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,080
the Great, 540 BCE, right? 
It used to be, if you talked 

718
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,960
about this in Great Neck, 
everybody knew it from high 

719
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,600
school. 
But now everybody went to high 

720
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,800
school in Great Neck. 
They don't know it anymore, but 

721
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,440
it used to be again, about the 
audience and the people all knew

722
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,200
the history of Iran from ancient
times on. 

723
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,920
But OK now. 
So at any rate, right? 

724
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,360
Once that happens, Aramaic 
becomes the standard 

725
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,120
international language and the 
language of most of the Jews 

726
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,320
have become the spoken language.
And then when the Maccabean 

727
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,960
revolt claim, we have a big 
revival of Hebrew. 

728
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,040
And that revival of Hebrew is 
unfortunately pushed away. 

729
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,360
By the time you get to the time 
of the mission, already 

730
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,240
everyone's talking Aramaic. 
You know that the the students 

731
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,720
of Rabihuddah Nasi who edited 
the missioner there was a a a 

732
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:39,960
woman who was a housekeeper in 
his home who came from the South

733
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,920
of the country, from the area of
Judea as opposed to the Galilee.

734
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,040
And the students of Rabihuddah 
Nasi asked her what certain 

735
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,440
Hebrew words meant. 
Because they didn't know as much

736
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,040
Hebrew. 
Shinu because she came from the 

737
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,680
South, because Aramaic and the 
Galilee game D language. 

738
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,720
So there's an up and down 
between Hebrew and Aramaic over 

739
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,280
a number of periods of time. 
I'm curious about the, you know,

740
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,040
it seems to me that the 
Samaritan texts kind of like 

741
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,480
fill in the blanks. 
That's what people consider it 

742
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,400
to be later. 
Some people. 

743
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,160
But the fact that they 
maintained the paleo Hebrew 

744
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:15,040
script versus. 
Yeah. 

745
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,480
Well, there's some paleo Hebrew 
used what the Gowara calls 

746
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,320
Kitabi 3IN in the Dead Sea 
Scrolls 2. 

747
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,600
There are, I don't know, maybe 
1520. 

748
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,280
There's a beautiful manuscript 
of smoke that's again almost 

749
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,960
complete in paleo Hebrew, but 
the Samaritans maintained it 

750
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,440
because the Samaritans try to 
maintain First Temple tradition.

751
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,160
Now we the the Gomorrah tells 
us, and it seems to be true, 

752
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:44,960
that the the script we call 
today, Kitavashuri, is really 

753
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,480
Aramaic, Aramaic script. 
And it was acquired by the Jews 

754
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,280
during the Persian period and 
especially by those who lived in

755
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,640
Mesopotamia, that is today's 
Iraq. 

756
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,720
And they brought it back to 
Erich Israel with them with the 

757
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:04,200
period of the return. 
And that was the end of the old 

758
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,040
Hebrew script that no longer got
used. 

759
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,120
And one of the reasons for this 
is that the old Hebrew script is

760
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,720
made to chisel into stone. 
If you just picture, you know if

761
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,200
anybody saw the movie The 10 
Commandments, which is actually 

762
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,480
rather funny if you see it now, 
yeah, it's humorous to watch it,

763
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,280
but at any rate, right? 
If you see the 10 Commandments, 

764
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,240
you see Joshua chiseling in 
stone. 

765
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:33,520
That's what he apparently did in
Egypt before he became Moses's 

766
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,600
assistant. 
So anyhow, you see the the the 

767
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,520
image there of chiseling in 
stone, and the Hebrew letters of

768
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,080
the Old Hebrew are made for 
that. 

769
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,320
The Aramaic language is made to 
be written with a brush or a pen

770
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,760
on whatever writing material 
you're using and not on stone, 

771
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,760
on skin or papyrus. 
And that's why it it beat out 

772
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:56,920
the old Hebrew, you know, very, 
very quickly. 

773
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,760
Really enlightening stuff, and 
one thing that I feel like 

774
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,040
people are probably very 
interested in is the next 

775
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:07,600
question. 
Ben. 

776
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,440
See You wanna get into #6? 
Sure, the scrolls contain 

777
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,800
apocalyptic and messianic texts 
that seem to reflect the beliefs

778
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,600
and expectations of the Qumran 
community. 

779
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,600
How do these beliefs compare 
with other Jewish and early 

780
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,960
Christian Messianic expectations
of the time? 

781
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,200
OK, So what we have to do to 
understand this question is to 

782
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:33,680
realize that there are two 
systems of messianism in the 

783
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,840
Qumran sectarian materials. 
And then there's another one 

784
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,280
more in the some of the non 
sectarian texts. 

785
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,440
Now the one that's in some of 
the non sectarian texts we can 

786
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,760
deal with very quickly. 
I call it non messianic 

787
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,320
messianism. 
It talks about a period of 

788
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,640
redemption, it talks about a 
period of perfection, of the 

789
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,480
world of peace etcetera. 
But there is no Messiah figure. 

790
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:07,040
That's a a an approach which did
not get accepted in in in 

791
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,760
Judaism or Christianity, 
although to some extent it's 

792
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,720
maintained in modern times by 
some liberal Protestants and 

793
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:19,360
some reformed Jews. 
But if there's no continuity it 

794
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,760
it died in antiquity. 
It came back for obvious reasons

795
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,360
because it's easy to believe in 
as a kind of an ideal but it it 

796
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,760
gets away from divine 
involvement. 

797
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,840
But the points of view that the 
Qumran sectarians hold and then 

798
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:39,000
other non sectarian documents 
hold fall in in in Basically 

799
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,520
there were there were two types 
you have shared by Qumran and 

800
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,920
everybody else under the sun 
including Christianity. 

801
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,120
And every group of Jews that 
existed with the possible 

802
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,840
exception of those Sadducees 
that were highly Hellenized is 

803
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,920
the regular old Davidic Messiah.
That's the common one. 

804
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,760
It's held in numerous Qumran 
script, the text where there's 

805
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,120
one Messiah and it's the son of 
David. 

806
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:12,320
It is the basis of the Christian
attempt to tie Jesus to the 

807
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:17,040
Davidic house in providing a a 
genealogy for him. 

808
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,560
And it is the view that ended up
in rabbinic Judaism as the main 

809
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,600
point of view of Jewish 
messianism. 

810
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,440
Now the other point of view is 
that there are two Bashiq him, 

811
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,040
one Mashiach, 1 Messiah of 
Aharon of Aaron, a priestly 

812
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,000
Messiah, and one a Messiah of 
Israel. 

813
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,000
According to this scheme, the 
most important thing is the 

814
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,880
temple, whereas according to the
David alone scheme, the most 

815
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,360
important thing is the Kingdom. 
So if the most important thing 

816
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:54,640
is the temple, there's a 
messianic Kohen who is the main 

817
00:50:54,640 --> 00:51:01,200
mashiach and that main mashiach 
has along with him a kind of you

818
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,600
could call him Messianic 
Executive director. 

819
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:10,280
The first handles all of the non
ritual religious parts of 

820
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,400
running the society that would 
be the Messiah of Israel. 

821
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:20,440
Now this point of view may be on
the coins of Barkov because the 

822
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:25,640
barkova coins many of them have 
on one side Shimon Barkov Barkov

823
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:29,000
by Nassi Israel even though his 
real name was Barkov. 

824
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,520
Sibos we now know but Chilbakova
the son of the star the Prince 

825
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,200
of Israel. 
And then I'll see you. 

826
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,720
In your case scale book of 
Ezekiel was the king. 

827
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,960
And on the other side you flip 
over El Azar ha Kohan, the name 

828
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,840
of a high priest. 
So that is a similar to two 

829
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,720
Messiah concept now. 
L Azar. 

830
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,800
Important Christianity. 
To them, what? 

831
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,640
You're saying that he was 
expected to be a messianic 

832
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,280
figure? 
I'm not saying he was accepted 

833
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,040
by anybody. 
What I'm saying is whoever put 

834
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,200
him on the coin may have 
considered that Jewish 

835
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,840
messianism requires 2 figures. 
So that they're going along the 

836
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,040
lines, they're going along the 
lines of this specific 

837
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,960
understanding of Messiah. 
Yeah, the two Messiah 2 Messiah 

838
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:14,960
idea. 
By the way, if you look at the 

839
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:20,880
introduction in the Ashkenazic 
Sidor, I don't remember whether 

840
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:24,400
as far as I'm also say this, the
introduction to burkana mazon 

841
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,400
and abrit milah, there's a whole
poem because no della shimkha, 

842
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,640
it's OK. 
And I it looks like you don't 

843
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:36,360
say it OK. 
And if you look at that, it has 

844
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:43,720
a Machiach Ben David and a Cohen
who is a who who, who, who is 

845
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,320
messianic in character. 
The Cohen will come back to the 

846
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,520
end of days as opposed to the 
Cohen who just had Cohen. 

847
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,520
It's a it's an eschatological 
idea of the Cohen. 

848
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,160
So this idea of a Cohen is an 
eschatological figure. 

849
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,320
It has a little bit of a place 
here or there in Judy. 

850
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,680
And now we have to get the 
Christianity. 

851
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,200
So I mentioned before, 
Christianity is basically based 

852
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,960
on the idea that Jesus would be 
from the House of David and 

853
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,800
therefore would be entitled to 
be a Messiah. 

854
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,560
Of course, every Jewish kid 
hears, wait a minute, how could 

855
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,520
this be? 
If Joseph right, was not his 

856
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,160
farther, then how can you trace 
through Joseph? 

857
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,320
I don't have an answer to that. 
OK, that's what they did. 

858
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,440
They traced through Joseph, 
who's not supposed to be his 

859
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:35,160
natural biological father. 
They traced through him the 

860
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,160
claim that Yeshu Jesus is in 
reality a Davidic descendant to 

861
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,480
legitimate him. 
Now when we go further with 

862
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:48,880
this, if you actually read all 
of the Christian texts, you'll 

863
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,560
find that the priestly Messiah 
idea comes in there also, 

864
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,520
because in the Epistle to 
Hebrews, Jesus is both the 

865
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,920
priest and the sacrifice, and 
there's a whole description 

866
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:03,400
there of temple practice 
according to that view. 

867
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,480
So what turns out in 
Christianity is that there are 

868
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:12,880
sort of echoes of the two 
Messiah concept also in the way 

869
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,800
in which he's pictured. 
Now I have to take you back to 

870
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,640
another manner pertaining to 
Messianism. 

871
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,760
There are two trends in Judaism 
regarding the messianic era. 

872
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,720
There is one which we call 
utopian and the other 

873
00:54:29,720 --> 00:54:34,160
catastrophic. 
Now, the Utopian Messianism is 

874
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:38,560
the one that became almost 
normative in the aftermath of 

875
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,880
the period of Kabbalah and Spot,
because that's the one that 

876
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:47,240
takes the concept of ticon, of 
improvement and turns it into 

877
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:51,560
the basic basis of how to 
achieve, how to achieve 

878
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,360
redemption. 
Now that concept existed in 

879
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,520
antiquity too. 
It means the following. 

880
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:01,040
It's utopian because we build a 
perfect society, and the further

881
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,840
and further we get in that 
process, eventually Mashiach 

882
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,000
comes to lead us in completing 
it. 

883
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:11,200
That's the utopian idea, the 
catastrophic idea, we could also

884
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,080
call it, by the way, the 
naturalistic idea. 

885
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:18,520
The catastrophic idea is that 
the world gets so bad that God 

886
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,760
asked, there's an explosion and 
everything is going to be 

887
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:26,080
destroyed. 
So God sends a figure to redeem 

888
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:27,880
us. 
But in the process there's a 

889
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,960
mass of war, and in that massive
war, the evil doers eventually 

890
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,720
get destroyed. 
That's the norm in the Dead Sea 

891
00:55:34,720 --> 00:55:37,600
Scrolls. 
That's why you have the scroll 

892
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,080
of the War of the Sons of Light 
against the Sons of Darkness. 

893
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,560
And that scroll has been 
mentioned several times by 

894
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,000
Netanyahu in some of his 
speeches. 

895
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:52,360
And that particular type of 
approach, the the catastrophe 

896
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,520
leading to the ultimate 
redemption is the basically the 

897
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,720
main one of the sectarians of 
Quran. 

898
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,960
Even though it's the main one of
the sectarians of Quran, it's 

899
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,840
very obvious that some of the 
other texts that they preserve 

900
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,640
that are from what I call Group 
2, texts that are just general 

901
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:17,000
Jewish texts, preserve the other
idea that there will be a better

902
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,880
and better time and eventually 
redemption will come because we 

903
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,480
will deserve it in a certain 
way. 

904
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,080
This is the argument of the 
Rabbis, whether the redemption 

905
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,280
will come to a world that is 
completely innocent and 

906
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,880
guiltless or one that is 
completely guilty. 

907
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,800
Because if you're completely 
guilty, you better have a quick 

908
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,880
redemption before the whole 
world explodes. 

909
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,640
And if you're completely 
righteous, you get a redemption 

910
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,760
because you deserve it. 
So those two concepts exist in 

911
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,000
the scrolls, but the sectarians 
themselves adhere to the 

912
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,320
catastrophic one. 
Now by the way, this is 

913
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,040
compromised in the Rambam 
because the Rambam assumes that 

914
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,080
there would still be a war at 
the end of days because of the 

915
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:02,280
need to obliterate a minority of
bad people in order to have the 

916
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:07,480
naturalistic type of event or 
messianic era that he expects. 

917
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:13,920
So I I have a question about the
Sons of Darkness versus the Sons

918
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:14,840
of Light. 
Who? 

919
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,360
Who did they believe? 
Do we know who they believed 

920
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,400
were? 
Oh yeah, just read the text. 

921
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:21,960
They tell you it's everybody but
us. 

922
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,800
This is the problem with the 
Dead Sea Scrolls. 

923
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,160
As an example for contemporary 
Judaism. 

924
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,600
There are some things they 
believe that are opposite. 

925
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,840
One thing they believe is 
absolute predestination. 

926
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,240
Absolute predestination. 
God makes every decision for 

927
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,480
you. 
Now that is not a normal Jewish 

928
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,440
belief. 
Normal Jewish belief is that God

929
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,200
for knows what we will do. 
I call us a fool. 

930
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:46,480
We are. 
We're shooting it to Nah. 

931
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,360
But we have choice. 
We make free choice. 

932
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:53,800
Now the other thing though that 
they believe that is not a sort 

933
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,360
of like in character of Judaism 
is to believe that everybody but

934
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,520
them is an evil doer and to be 
destroyed. 

935
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:07,960
So if you look at the text, it 
describes wars with all the 

936
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,440
nations around until they are 
finally victorious against all 

937
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:15,080
of them. 
And then it includes the fact 

938
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,240
that all Jews who don't join 
them will be destroyed. 

939
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,600
And then at the end, they're 
going to March up to 

940
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,600
Yerushalayim and run the Temple 
according to their views. 

941
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:29,240
So this gets to sort of what you
might call the dark side of the 

942
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:35,080
Sons of Light because there are 
parts of their approach in as a 

943
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:40,600
result of their extreme 
sectarianism which are not ones 

944
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:46,000
that Judaism wants to you know 
put into practice in any way, in

945
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,280
any way at all. 
So I mean the, the, the no 

946
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,120
matter what Messianic point of 
view you take in Judaism, the 

947
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:57,920
idea is that the the non Jews 
who are good people are all 

948
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,760
going to still be around in the 
end of the day. 

949
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:06,760
So they can come up to the 
temple as it's right, the nice 

950
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:07,920
people stay with us. 
Right. 

951
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:09,880
So here the idea, everybody. 
What else is no good? 

952
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,800
That's what you see there. 
That's the meeting. 

953
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,160
Yeah, it's a negative type of 
messiness, and you might say 

954
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,320
it's. 
Almost an angry messiness. 

955
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:22,640
Yeah, yeah. 
But you see, what's interesting 

956
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,440
is if you go through that very 
same text, I just have to tell 

957
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,640
you it doesn't happen what they 
say. 

958
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,440
This is very funny. 
They make it out in the text 

959
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,440
that all the Night Nations are 
going to be destroyed. 

960
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,840
Whoever wrote this text compiled
it from some other documents. 

961
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,120
And one of the things that he 
put into this, this scroll of 

962
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,560
the War of the Sons against the 
Sons of Darkness are apparently 

963
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:48,720
pre-existing beautiful poems. 
And he has the most beautiful 

964
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,440
poem about all the nations 
coming up to worship God in the 

965
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,240
end of days. 
What do you mean? 

966
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:55,960
You just told me they're 
supposed to be killed because 

967
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,960
they're all no good, and he got 
him coming up to worship God. 

968
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:02,320
What's going on? 
So apparently they either they 

969
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,280
weren't happy with that idea 
themselves, or they compromise. 

970
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,520
I don't know. 
But you see, the poems have the 

971
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,080
other type of vision. 
The more you talk about it, the 

972
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:14,680
more I understand what you mean 
by the development part of 

973
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,800
Judaism, how things things 
develop, you know and it's it's 

974
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:24,360
extremely necessary because as 
you see so many strange ideas 

975
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,680
and things and that just just 
creep in and. 

976
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,040
Well, in fact as if that if you 
look at the in the Talmud in 

977
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:36,400
Sanhedrin, you see that sometime
in the second or third century 

978
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,600
you start to get there, the 
discussion of the Messianic era 

979
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,920
and you see that a lot of these 
kind of apocalyptic ideas start 

980
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,440
to be mentioned by Kazal that 
weren't mentioned earlier. 

981
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,280
And we don't know why they 
mentioned at that time, but many

982
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:54,360
of them seem to be aspects of 
the heritage of Second Temple 

983
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,640
times. 
A famous example that we can't 

984
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,440
solve is the Mashiach Ben Yosef.
It looks like something that 

985
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,200
must be a Second Temple idea, 
but we don't have any text 

986
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,600
wrenching Mashiach Ben Yosef, 
the idea that there's a 

987
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,520
predecessor Mashiach who gets 
killed in battle. 

988
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,400
And then again, we also know 
that the very same ideas in the 

989
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,160
end of the Byzantine period 
before the Muslim conquest. 

990
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,960
So we're talking now really 
about the five hundreds and 

991
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,880
early 6 hundreds. 
Quite a number of texts were 

992
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,400
composed, some of which continue
to be composed after the Muslim 

993
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,720
conquest, which talk about 
catastrophic war, and which 

994
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,920
assume a Great War in which 
somebody is going to defeat the 

995
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:37,960
Romans. 
Now the Romans were the main 

996
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,400
enemy that the war scroll 
thought it would have to fight, 

997
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:46,360
because apparently the scroll 
was written sometime either 

998
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,840
around or before the Romans came
to Erich Israel. 

999
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,320
In 63 BCE they conquered it. 
We can't mix that up with the 

1000
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,560
destruction struction is in CE 
right? 

1001
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:01,400
70 CE the temple was destroyed. 
63 BCE the Romans first 

1002
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:06,240
conquered Erich Israel. 
So at any rate, the seems the 

1003
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,880
Dead Sea sectarians in the war 
scroll expected the Romans to be

1004
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:15,200
the main protagonists, the 
enemy, and they have a term for 

1005
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:19,640
them. 
Kitim, because the Kitty own is 

1006
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:25,680
on, is an island on Crete. 
So the part of Crete a city and 

1007
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,360
Crete. 
I'm sorry, City and Crete. 

1008
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,720
And they assumed that the Romans
would be coming from the Aegean 

1009
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,840
somehow. 
But at any rate, what is really 

1010
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:40,600
interesting to see is that the 
very same ideas of major battles

1011
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:45,600
involving Roman armies, Roman 
now being Byzantium against 

1012
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:50,440
somebody in this case being the 
Arabs, was understood to perhaps

1013
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:52,920
be a harbinger of the end of 
Days. 

1014
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:57,880
And so texts that look like the 
War scroll were being written in

1015
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:03,680
that era in the five hundreds 
and early 6 hundreds of CE. 

1016
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:10,440
Eye opening stuff and I actually
wanted to mention that and you 

1017
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,440
you've discussed this on on 
other podcasts that I heard you 

1018
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:16,520
on is that besides obviously 
what we learned about messianism

1019
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:20,000
at the time and and even 
Christianity, one thing that 

1020
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,280
that people don't know or at 
least Jewish people don't know 

1021
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:28,560
usually is that you know by 
studying certain Christian texts

1022
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:33,200
we discover a lot of practices 
of of Jews at the time like for 

1023
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,680
example the first time a maftier
is is mentioned. 

1024
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:37,440
Is it right? 
Is correct me if I'm wrong, 

1025
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,440
Jesus? 
Mafti Yeah is mentioned in. 

1026
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,920
It doesn't mean it's the first 
maftier, it is the first mention

1027
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,960
or another example they always 
give, which is a funny example 

1028
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,360
is you ask the question who is 
the first Jew that we know was 

1029
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:51,880
named. 
That is Britt Mila. 

1030
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,440
It doesn't mean he's the first 
one to be named as Brit Mila but

1031
01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:00,920
it's done on the Baptist and and
the reality is that to to the 

1032
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,720
New Testament in general is a 
very important source for 

1033
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:06,840
certain things about the history
of Judaism. 

1034
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,000
And just as give one example 
beyond the kind of things we're 

1035
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,960
talking about right now, when 
you get to the book of Acts and 

1036
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:20,880
they describe the apostles going
all over the area of Turkey and 

1037
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:25,320
Greece and eventually reaching 
Rome and some of the aisles, 

1038
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,160
This is some of the earliest 
evidence we have for the Jewish 

1039
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,360
communities because they always 
go to the synagogues and it's 

1040
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,440
the earliest information we have
of synagogues in those places. 

1041
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,920
And then there's a lot, a lot, a
lot of other things are not 

1042
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:42,000
understood about the manner in 
which these texts provide 

1043
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,600
information about Jewish 
history. 

1044
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,880
And as I say, some, some 
religious practices, but some 

1045
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:53,840
other things as well. 
So before we go, I just want to 

1046
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,600
know, what do you think? 
Do you think that these texts 

1047
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,200
today are relevant to the modern
reader? 

1048
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:01,480
The modern? 
I'll tell you, there's some very

1049
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:02,920
interesting ways in which 
they're relevant. 

1050
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:07,800
First of all, I mean, you can 
compare ideas like messianic 

1051
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,040
ideas with, well, what are we 
should we believe today as Jews?

1052
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,440
But remember, one important 
thing, The Dead Sea Scrolls 

1053
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,040
don't have religious authority 
for us. 

1054
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,640
They're historical texts. 
They don't have religious 

1055
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,880
authority for anyone because 
they're not part of the Direct 

1056
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,320
Line of tradition of Jewish 
texts. 

1057
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,480
Now, this is not the only type 
of text that has this problem, 

1058
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,640
but it's stronger than, you 
know, the the Captain Sofaire, 

1059
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:40,280
excuse me, the Khazan. 
The Khazanish did not want 

1060
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:44,640
people to use track dates of the
Meiri that weren't known in 

1061
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,840
earlier times on the grounds 
that they're not a direct part 

1062
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,320
of the tradition. 
But it's fairly obvious that the

1063
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:55,000
Meiri fits right into the 
tradition of the rabbis of the 

1064
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,000
Middle Ages. 
It's obvious that these texts do

1065
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:02,720
not fit into the straight 
misorah of the Prussian and the 

1066
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:06,440
rabbis of the Talmud. 
So that being the case, these 

1067
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:08,880
are really, for us historical 
texts. 

1068
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,920
So the relevance is a we can 
learn a tremendous amount about 

1069
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,080
our complex history. 
And some of the things that we 

1070
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:19,160
learned about our complex 
history will be relevant today 

1071
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,880
because we need to consider some
of the same same issues 

1072
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:24,040
sometimes. 
And I don't mean, you know, 

1073
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,000
we're not going to reconsider 
our calendar. 

1074
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:30,880
What I mean to say by that is 
that we can take lessons from 

1075
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,480
these texts about what happens 
when certain extreme positions 

1076
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,080
are allowed to overcome other 
positions. 

1077
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:40,040
We can see in these texts. 
There are some texts that are 

1078
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:44,720
very beautiful ideas, poetry. 
That's inspiring and things like

1079
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,720
this that we can gain by 
studying these texts, but they 

1080
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:51,560
don't have a place in the 
authoritative authority system. 

1081
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,840
Now, there's one other really 
interesting fact about these 

1082
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,120
texts. 
And actually I gave for the 

1083
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:02,320
second time a lecture about this
only yesterday. 

1084
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,840
Yeah. 
And it wasn't yesterday. 

1085
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:06,400
It was day before. 
Sorry. 

1086
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:11,440
And it was the the role that 
they've played in Jewish 

1087
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:14,360
Christian relations. 
And this is because these 

1088
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:18,120
scrolls have reminded many 
Christians about the extent to 

1089
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,160
which Christianity is rooted in 
early Judaism. 

1090
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,920
And that notion has been a help 
in the history of Jewish 

1091
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:31,040
Christian relations and the 
improvement that started after 

1092
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,200
the Holocaust, partly because of
the Holocaust. 

1093
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:37,480
But the scrolls are quoted every
once in a while in works that 

1094
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:42,280
are arguing or Christians to 
give up anti-Semitism and to 

1095
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:46,200
take more positive views of Jews
and Jews, of Jews and Judaism. 

1096
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:51,480
And this has happened. 
There is some particular places 

1097
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:54,840
that's quite prominent, for 
example in a work that the 

1098
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,960
Catholic Church issued regarding
Jewish interpretation of the 

1099
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:01,000
Bible and how it should be 
respected, and the Dead Sea 

1100
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:02,680
Scrolls are mentioned explicitly
there. 

1101
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,720
So what's happened is that the 
Scrolls have had certain 

1102
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:09,480
positive effects on the 
Christian move away from 

1103
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:13,120
anti-Semitism among those who 
have made that move, and that's 

1104
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:15,920
it been a a very positive thing.
Do they? 

1105
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:20,640
Do they feel the same way about,
let's say the Book of Enoch and 

1106
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,080
Books in the Apocrypha? 
Is that Is that something of? 

1107
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:26,880
Well, this is very Now you're 
opening up a big question. 

1108
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:31,680
Here's why, Because those books 
are actually First of all, there

1109
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:37,840
is Enoch in the scrolls. 
OK, second of all 12 books that 

1110
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,760
are the Apocrypha are in the 
Catholic Bible. 

1111
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:44,520
This is a humorous fact. 
Every Catholic has the books of 

1112
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:47,680
Maccabees telling the Franca 
story in their Bible. 

1113
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,279
So imagine if we had the 
Christmas story in our Bible, 

1114
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:55,439
right they have in the Bible. 
Now the question when we talk 

1115
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:59,399
about these changes in 
Christianity, moving away from 

1116
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:01,720
positions that were 
anti-Semitic, which has 

1117
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:04,600
certainly been done officially 
by the Catholic Church, it's 

1118
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:09,920
certainly obviously been done 
unofficially in the evangelical 

1119
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:11,920
groups that love Israel and love
Jews. 

1120
01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:15,960
And it's been done in certain 
ways even by the liberal 

1121
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:18,720
Protestants that are not our 
greatest fans. 

1122
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,640
But of course, the Catholic 
Church did it officially in the 

1123
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:25,200
60s. 
Now the point I want to make is 

1124
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:30,399
that this was part of a trend 
that starts already much 

1125
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:35,479
earlier, to see the history of 
Judaism and therefore the 

1126
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,800
background of Christianity as 
available in documents like 

1127
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,680
Apocrypha and some of these 
other documents. 

1128
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,399
Then that was starting before 
the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

1129
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:51,120
Then came the Holocaust, which 
is a very big reason to do this,

1130
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:56,120
because many Christians realize 
that the the Holocaust did have 

1131
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,360
a background in Christian 
anti-Semitism, even if it wasn't

1132
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:04,400
the direct cause 'cause. 
And then the scrolls came and 

1133
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:09,400
waved the gigantic flag about 
the significance of placing 

1134
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:14,200
Christianity's origins in the 
context of inner Jewish debate 

1135
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:17,760
and Jewish discussion. 
And then one of the big 

1136
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,520
conclusions of that was that 
classical Christian 

1137
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:27,120
anti-Semitism was not a very 
good idea and it began to be 

1138
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:30,480
rejected by church after church 
in official documents. 

1139
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,800
And the scrolls have a role 
there. 

1140
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,760
I don't want to overestimate 
that role, but they have a role 

1141
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:42,040
in making that happen. 
Although sadly the Holocaust is 

1142
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:46,120
probably the the biggest factor 
here and and certainly for the 

1143
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:50,920
Vatican in in wanting to make 
sure that they could not harbor 

1144
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,760
concepts that could lead to 
violence of that and destruction

1145
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,920
of that nature and and and you 
know physical annihilation of 

1146
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,440
Jews. 
So they they move squarely away 

1147
01:11:00,440 --> 01:11:02,760
from it. 
But the scrolls are there in 

1148
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,160
that story in AI don't know what
we want to say, what we ought to

1149
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:08,960
call it. 
Not the leading role but a role.

1150
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:13,800
But the whole rediscovery of 
Second Temple Judaism starts at 

1151
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,520
a renaissance run through the 
Reformation for the non Jews, 

1152
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,000
Jews, thoughts in the red and 
Renaissance for them. 

1153
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:22,680
It starts in the Reformation and
it, the scrolls and what's going

1154
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:27,600
on today and archaeology and all
this have completely, you know, 

1155
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:33,360
brought this to the surface. 
So is that why the I forget 

1156
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:36,760
which Pope it was in the 
previous century tried to kind 

1157
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:40,080
of backtrack and say that we 
made a mistake when when it came

1158
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:42,640
to scapegoating the Jews and 
Judas as the? 

1159
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,680
Yeah, well this is from the 60s 
when this started. 

1160
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:48,840
Pope John Paul the 23rd followed
by he passed away in the middle 

1161
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:53,320
and the job was finished by Pope
Paul the the, the 6th. 

1162
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:59,480
And these physicians you know 
have been taken very formally by

1163
01:11:59,480 --> 01:12:03,040
the Catholic Church and other 
churches followed in many ways, 

1164
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:06,120
either formally or informally. 
Now, I mean, we still have 

1165
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:09,680
problems with certain groups. 
Much of those problems are about

1166
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,240
Israel and and those problems 
remain. 

1167
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:16,640
But the classical anti-Semitism 
has for the most part been 

1168
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:21,200
removed. 
Yeah, I mean, I think to me the 

1169
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:25,160
biggest, maybe I'm wrong, but I 
feel like the biggest source of 

1170
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:29,000
anti-Semitism is the Deocide, 
right? 

1171
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,200
The. 
Yeah, but no one believes that 

1172
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:33,360
anymore, right? 
That's the point, because the 

1173
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,080
New Testament actually doesn't 
say it. 

1174
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:37,560
The crazy part? 
The New Testament says that the 

1175
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:40,160
Romans killed them. 
Exactly, exactly. 

1176
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:41,960
That's a strange the whole thing
was strange. 

1177
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:45,240
Amazing. 
Well, we really wanna thank you.

1178
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:47,200
This was so. 
OK, an. 

1179
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:50,480
Eye opening and thank you for 
making the time. 

1180
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:52,480
It was, really. 
OK. 

1181
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,440
So we'll say good night and 
thank you gentlemen. 

1182
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:58,200
Thank you Let. 
Me know when it's posted 

1183
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:00,320
etcetera of. 
Course, of course. 

1184
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:01,720
OK. 
Thank you very much. 

1185
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:02,360
Good night. 
Very much. 

1186
01:13:02,440 --> 01:13:03,880
I appreciate your time. 
Thank you. 

1187
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:04,760
Sure. 
OK. 

1188
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:06,200
Good night. 
Good night. 

1189
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:13,960
Hey guys, thanks so much for 
tuning into the Judaism 

1190
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,960
Demystified podcast. 
We really appreciate all your 

1191
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,840
support and your feedback. 
If you wanna help us grow the 

1192
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:24,480
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1193
01:13:24,480 --> 01:13:26,480
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1194
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:30,800
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1195
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:33,800
Contribute any small amount 
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1196
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,280
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Our Patreon is 

1197
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:43,800
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1198
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:47,360
Thank you again and we hope to 
keep putting out great shows for

1199
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:58,320
you guys. 
Before we go, we want to thank 

1200
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:02,800
our Patreon supporters by name. 
Those are the supporters that 

1201
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:06,040
are helping make this show 
happen because frankly Benty and

1202
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:09,480
I are full time workers who 
don't really have so much time 

1203
01:14:09,480 --> 01:14:12,720
on our hands because we have 
families, we have kids and it's 

1204
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:16,640
just a passion project that got 
way bigger than we expected. 

1205
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:20,600
So we're dedicating more time to
this and obviously our 

1206
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,120
production value up until this 
point hasn't been great 

1207
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:27,560
considering that we film this in
Benzie's basement using a green 

1208
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,360
screen and a crappy little 
microphone and not such great 

1209
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,280
equipment to be honest, I'm sure
you all realize that. 

1210
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:39,840
So we are hoping to up our 
quality and get better equipment

1211
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,840
and part of that process is 
going to be due to you guys, the

1212
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:47,720
listeners and supporters. 
If you go to our Patreon page, 

1213
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:52,760
patreon.com/judaism, you will 
see all the different tiers of 

1214
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:54,760
ways you can help us out. 
So first of all, we want to 

1215
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:59,200
thank our super patron Jordan 
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1216
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:03,920
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1217
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1218
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1219
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:16,240
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Thank you all for supporting the

1220
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:19,000
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