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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
Once again, Doctor Erica Brown, 

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thank you for joining us. 
But if you can, just tell us a 

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little bit about yourself for 
those who missed the 1st 

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episode. 
OK, well, first of all, it is 

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such a delight to talk to the 
two of you. 

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I mean, I, I really, I love what
you do. 

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And I mean, I like Judaism 
mystified because I think it's 

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just more interesting that way. 
But but I'm I'm happy to mystify

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to the extent that we can. 
I I'm a, a wife and A and a 

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mother and a Safdie and a 
grandmother. 

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And I work as the vice Provost 
at Yeshiva University of Values 

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and leadership. 
And I also direct the Rabbi Lord

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Jonathan Sacks Herenstein 
Center. 

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Rabbi Sacks was a very beloved 
teacher of mine and someone who 

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really role model was a role 
model for me and, and, and, and 

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really in thinking about 
leadership and platforms of 

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influence and reading and 
writing and, and I write a few 

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books here and now here and 
again. 

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Quite a few. 
Quite a few. 

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So first of all, Rabbi Sacks 
means the world to us. 

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I mean, we he's the reason 
probably why we started this 

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podcast to begin with. 
So, you know, there you're 

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definitely an extension of his 
and we're we're so we're so 

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honored to have you on again. 
I, I, I love hearing that it 

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really, it's, it's very warming.
I just actually took a group of 

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about 28 UC university students 
to London to really walk in the 

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footsteps of Rabbi Sacks. 
And they met Lady Elaine and 

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they met his daughter Gila and 
they met students of his and 

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people work with. 
And then we went to the Kevir, 

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which was a first for me, 'cause
he was, he died and was buried 

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during COVID. 
So that was a very, I think, I 

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think you really, you really 
understand the impact that a 

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teacher has on your life when 
the teacher is no longer there, 

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right. 
It's the whole piece of Kumar 

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about what what disappeared when
a particular scholar 

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disappeared. 
And, and maybe we'll get, we'll 

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have a chance to talk a little 
bit about the rabbinic voice 

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that he occupied that that 
really we don't have that we 

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don't have right now. 
It's definitely part of the 

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discussion. 
So let's start with the first 

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question, which is in your 
preface to your new book, The 

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Torah of Leadership, which is 
phenomenal. 

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You mentioned how leadership has
always been on the forefront of 

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your mind since your very first 
published book, Inspired Jewish 

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Leadership in 2008. 
Why has Jewish leadership always

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been at the forefront, forefront
of your thoughts? 

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And why, in your estimation, has
it become more relevant over the

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past 20 years, even more 
specifically since October 7th 

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than ever before in the Jewish 
community? 

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OK, so great question, multi 
part question. 

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Barbara Kellerman, who is an 
instructor of leadership at 

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Kennedy at Harvard's Kennedy 
School and has written some 

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excellent books about 
leadership, has an article where

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she says sort of the discipline 
of leadership is probably about 

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40 years old, right. 
So I don't know if that I don't 

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know if the first if the first 
leadership book appeared in an 

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airport bookstore 40 years ago. 
But you know, in other words, 

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these ideas of, of business 
guidance, and I think a lot of 

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it had to do with the fact that 
no matter, no matter how 

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successful a company is, so much
can be traced or an institution,

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so much is traced to the leader,
right? 

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It's like the leader sets the 
tone, the intellectual tone, the

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spiritual tone, the emotional 
tone for, for an institution 

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and, or, or, or, or for a 
movement. 

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And, and I found that we were 
talking a lot about leadership 

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outside the Jewish community and
actually in the Christian 

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market. 
There's a whole Christian market

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around leadership and thousands 
and thousands of book. 

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If you, if you put Amazon, if 
you put an Amazon Christian 

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leadership, there's going to be 
probably something like 15 to 

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20,000 books will fit in that 
category. 

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And then, and, and at the time 
when I first started teaching 

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leadership and working on 
leadership, I, I, I live in a 

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suburb of Washington, DC and I 
work with a lot of people who 

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have, you know, high-powered 
jobs and government and 

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journalists. 
And, and what I discovered is 

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that we really hadn't leaned in 
to leadership as a discipline. 

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That also combined with I've 
been for me, it's natural and 

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organic to the Torah because we 
care about succession. 

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You have something beautiful, 
you care about the Masaura, you 

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care about continuity. 
So who you going to hand that 

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off to? 
Who will nurture it and treasure

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it and grow it and improve it. 
And so that's, you know, that, 

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that I think I would say that, 
that, that the discipline was 

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important in, in, in, in 
American organizational 

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structures. 
And as it became more 

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significant, the question is, 
how do you, how does this, how 

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does this drive with, with 
Jewish organizational life? 

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And Jewish organizational life 
is a huge part of American life,

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much more so than, for example, 
in Israel and, and in many 

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places in Europe, it was we have
organizational structures that 

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deal with kindness and social 
services and education. 

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And how do you run those well, 
and how do you raise money for 

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them? 
All right. 

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Excellent points. 
So So what? 

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Why in the last 20 years do you 
feel that this problem is only 

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staggered? 
Yeah, I think, I think there's a

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few things going on. 
Number one, there are huge 

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issues in the world that we're 
that that are accelerated and I 

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you know, since since 2008, 
anti-Semitism has become a much,

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much larger concern and security
of the Jews in general 

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fundraising and and the 
influence of philanthropists on 

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on Jewish structures. 
So what we call legacy or well 

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established organizations like 
federations and other and other 

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organizations are are having 
less influence and families with

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significant wealth are having 
more influence in shaping the 

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Jewish future. 
And I think a big, I think 

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probably the, the, the big 
breakthrough in that was when a 

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number of large philanthropists 
got together and they created 

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Birthright, right? 
They weren't really interested 

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and they didn't have to be 
interested in what legacy 

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institutions cared about because
they had the money to say, 

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let's, let's create an amazing 
silver bullet. 

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And, and I think that was the 
beginning of now a very 

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different philanthropic way of 
organizing the Jewish community.

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And it, and it squeezed out a 
lot of Jewish communal 

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professionals. 
And it also put an infusion cash

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and many things that we care a 
lot about. 

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So I think that's, you know, 
that that's been significant. 

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I think we have rabbis who are 
very immersed in halacha, 

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depending on the denomination, 
or very immersed in politics. 

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And then there's just like this 
voice of courage, you know, this

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prophetic voice of courage that 
I certainly associate always 

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with Rabbi Sachs. 
Where is it when you're thinking

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I I've been going through 
something and I just don't know 

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who to turn to? 
And So what I'm I'm turning to 

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an op-ed in a newspaper, right? 
I'm, I'm turning to journalists.

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I'm turning to comedians, right?
And I was, I mean, when you 

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think about how much influence 
comedians have now, if you look 

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on the New York Times website, 
they'll put like late night 

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comedy is, is like a category, 
right? 

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So like, what did the comedian 
say last night? 

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So you've got these pundits and 
politicians and comedians, and 

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then you say, where are the 
faith leaders who are who are 

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really in some way need to 
influence the culture, need to 

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set direction, need to also be 
the moral voice of no on things.

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And I think that they're they're
largely absent right now. 

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And I think that's very, you 
know, that's very painful. 

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I also think consumerism, 
technology, these are things, 

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these are factors that have 
really shifted the way that we 

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communicate with each other, the
way that people often had 

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communal experiences, which now 
are singular experiences, right?

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I don't know about you guys. 
When I was younger, you went to 

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a concert or you got one album 
and everybody listened to it at 

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the same time and we all had the
same songs. 

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And now could you have imagined 
that all of your, you know, that

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all of your music would be here 
and it would be only your music?

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I would have the playlist, 
right? 

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As opposed to here's the song 
list of our childhoods, here's 

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my playlist. 
So things which influence 

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culture became much more 
individualistic and that affects

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leadership too. 
And wait, I want to say one more

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thing. 
I'm sorry, I'm just on a roll 

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and I'm excited. 
I think we have become, because 

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of social media has enabled this
and consumerism has enabled 

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this. 
We have become consumers rather 

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than stakeholders of Jewish 
organizational life. 

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I don't like this school. 
I'm going to take my kid out. 

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I'm going to complain. 
And I'm, you know, and I have 

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other options. 
And I'm actually going to post 

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this on Facebook. 
And you have a lot of really, 

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really good people who have said
to me, I would, I would never 

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become a rabbi right now. 
I would never run a school right

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now. 
I don't want to be president of 

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a synagogue, JCC, you know, fill
in the blank. 

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I wouldn't do that because I 
care about myself, worth and my 

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dignity and my family. 
And I think, I think unless we 

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have a whole other category of 
fellowship, we're going to see 

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bad leaders. 
Bad leaders fill in the vacuum. 

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There's always space for them, 
so it's a worry for me that's. 

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A That's a huge worry. 
That's a huge worry, Benzie. 

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You want to. 
Take yeah, you mentioned you 

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mentioned the term a prophetic 
voice. 

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That is such an appropriate term
because like that, that's that 

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really like when you said that 
that's really what we're missing

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right now. 
We're we're missing, we're 

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missing the prophetic voice, 
we're missing that. 

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And it's it's and. 
And I feel like. 

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Don't even know that they can 
have that in a in a leader. 

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Yes, it's almost. 
Yes, it's become, it's, it's, 

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it's, it's something you read 
about. 

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It's something you know. 
Mythology. 

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Mythology, yeah, we don't, we 
don't, we don't encompass it 

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anymore or try to bring it out 
anymore. 

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I read things that Rabbi Norman 
Lamb, who is my teacher as an 

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undergraduate at Yoshiba at 
Yoshiba University. 

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It's true in college, I, I read 
essays that he wrote in the 60s 

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and I think to myself, that's 
exactly right. 

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That's, that's exactly what 
needs to be said. 

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And so although the, the the 
covering maybe have been 

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relevant to his period of time, 
but he had a certain he had a 

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gift for articulation and he 
could help you understand how 

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should I think about this, 
right? 

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How should I think about 
artificial intelligence? 

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Well, if a rabbi doesn't tell me
that, I'm just going to, you 

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know, read what it says in The 
Atlantic or The New Yorker or 

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wherever I get my news from, 
right? 

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I'm going to read that. 
And I'm not going to say these 

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are the issues of the day. 
And we we need rabbi. 

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So we're going to take Adam. 
You know what, I don't want to 

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limit it to rabbis. 
I'm going to say educators 

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because I think, I think, thank 
God in the past 20 years, there 

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are more women in the field who 
are, you know, who are also 

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thinking and producing and 
writing. 

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And, you know, I'm excited to 
see, I mean, to see all these 

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wonderful young men and women at
Yoshimi University who, who will

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rise to this. 
I believe they'll rise to it. 

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And that is why this podcast is 
so important that we're doing 

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with you because what we're 
trying to do is to promote your 

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book, The Torah of Leadership, 
which you address a lot of these

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things in the book. 
And we want to dive into the 

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book and hopefully encourage 
people to go out and buy it and 

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read it. 
So in your introduction, you 

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discussed leadership as the 
central theme of the Torah. 

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In your words, we need not read 
leadership into the Torah, into 

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the Torah as a forced theme or a
modern imposition on a sacred 

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text. 
We read it out of the Torah on 

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every page. 
Yet it seems we have lost touch 

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with this central aspect of the 
Torah's challenge to us. 

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Can you discuss this centrality,
centrality of leadership in the 

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text of the Torah, why we have 
lost this ability to see it in 

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the text, and conversely, the 
correct approach to the text to 

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help remedy the problem? 
Yeah, wow, what a question. 

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So first of all, in traditional 
learning, we read line by line 

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and often word by word, right? 
So in a close reading, we're 

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reading very, very slowly. 
When you're reading leadership, 

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you're reading it on a very 
grand narrative scale. 

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So for example, I might look at 
a story of Avraham Avigno of 

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Abraham, and I hyper focus on a 
detail in chapter 14 or chapter 

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12 or chapter 20. 
And what I'm not seeing perhaps 

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is, Gee, his father set out on 
this journey, didn't finish it. 

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You know, part of leadership is,
you know, seeing a vision is is,

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is moving a family, is creating 
a nation. 

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And then there's the land, 
right? 

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And he's he has to become a 
nation. 

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So the nation is the land and 
people. 

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So then you say, Oh, well, how 
is he dealing with the 

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challenges of nationhood? 
Well, when it comes to land, 

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he's building well. 
He's digging wells and he's 

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making covenants and he's 
amassing cattle and he's 

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fighting wars. 
And it was like he's doing the 

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states, the acts of statesman. 
And and yet when it comes to 

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building a family, building a 
nation, which begins with a 

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family, that's not he's 
struggling with that, right. 

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So in every in every call to 
leadership, there are things 

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that come naturally to us, the 
things that give us pleasure and

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that we're good at. 
And there are things that are 

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this persistent challenge. 
You're always going to have this

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challenge. 
And you look at the Avram 

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narrative and you say, you know,
Avram really across these, you 

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know, 12 to 25 chapters, 12 to 
25. 

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Look, what did he do to just 
fabricate like to, to fashion a 

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nation that we had to overcome 
this fertility challenge in a 

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00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,520
very profound way. 
Every solution was actually not 

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a solution. 
And even once he finds the 

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solution, he has Ishmael, then 
he has get stuck and then he has

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to banish Ishmael and then he 
almost sacrifices you stuck. 

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And we're back at 0, right? 
And and yet before he dies, he 

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makes sure that Yitzhak has a 
wife. 

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So Yitzhak is married and has a 
wife so that Gitzhak will 

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continue. 
And what who are we if not those

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who say I need to continue and 
have a successor, whether that's

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00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,840
in my own family, in religion. 
And I think, I think we've 

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stopped asking will I have 
Jewish children? 

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And we start asking, will I have
Jewish grandchildren? 

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Certainly Rabbi Sachs asks that 
often, Will we have Jewish 

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00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,520
grandchildren? 
And it was do we see a 

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continuous and and how so much 
of that is the leader. 

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00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,920
It's the king, it's the prophet,
it's the chauffeet, it's the 

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00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,600
it's the chief, right? 
It's the military leader, it's 

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00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,280
the and and and these are these 
are figures all over the Torah. 

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00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,920
And not only that, but we have 
the opposite story for every 

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00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,440
leadership paradigm of success, 
we have the corruption of power.

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00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,200
So when it comes to Kohanim, we 
have we have bad calling him, 

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00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,920
right, Ely's sons and Shmuel bad
calling him. 

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00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,080
We have a Navi Shakur, we have a
bad, we have a bad prophet. 

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00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,400
We have kings that are terrible 
kings. 

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00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,000
All right, All of the books of 
Chronicles 1 and 2 all about 

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00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,680
the, you know, bad things at 
kings do we have Shofthim are 

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00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,440
good and Shofim are bad. 
So I think the tour is very 

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00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,960
accurate about about the losses 
and wins that come with leaders.

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00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,400
But if you don't have leaders, 
we're done, right? 

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00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,840
So the project is over. 
The enterprise is over. 

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00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,320
And I think that's true. 
That's true in modern politics. 

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00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:14,000
We're we're right now in a very,
I don't know, it's such a 

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00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,240
radical transitional time 
politically in America, in, in 

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00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:18,880
Israel. 
I mean, you know, the, the 

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00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,600
protests on the streets, people 
are trying to figure out who's a

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00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,400
good leader. 
Is it a strongman view of 

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00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,400
leadership? 
Is it a more collaborative view 

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00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,160
of leadership? 
And then you say, like, turn to 

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00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,680
the Torah. 
It's it's there. 

300
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,760
Have Faqaba. 
Have Faqaba, they're going to 

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00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,280
find it. 
I feel like, I feel like we, 

302
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,800
we've been conditioned, not that
these things are necessarily 

303
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,800
wrong, but we've been, we've 
conditioned to in a sense we 

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00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,000
look at the Torah and then we, 
you know, like you said, like, 

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00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,440
you know, primarily for, you 
know, drawing out the halacha or

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00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,960
meaning. 
We're, we're, we're coming with,

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00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:06,000
with a set of a set of, we're 
conditioned in a way where we're

308
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,240
trying to take things out of the
text that are very specific 

309
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,839
towards specific religious goals
or, or whatever it is. 

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00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,200
And those are correct in itself.
Like, how am I going to be a 

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00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,520
more spiritual person today? 
So we're not looking at it with 

312
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:21,359
open eyes. 
Anymore to really let the text 

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00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,880
speak to us and to and to 
really, you know, get the, the, 

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00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,359
the, the more deeper and 
existential messages that the 

315
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,120
Torah is trying to give us. 
Well, I think it's if we can 

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00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:31,760
have the existential messages, 
Ben. 

317
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,840
See, I think the issue is the 
large visionary pictures of what

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00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,320
it means to be a nation, right, 
what it means to be a nation. 

319
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,840
So, you know, you have a small 
family, but then you, you know, 

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00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,080
you, you get to book of Schmod, 
you get to Exodus and you become

321
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,040
a not a you know, you turn from 
a small family to a very, very 

322
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,440
big nation that has a very, very
big challenge. 

323
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,000
And then you have to have law 
and then, you know, you have 

324
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,440
leaders. 
And before you know, before most

325
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,680
of this dies, he's gonna put 
Yoshua in place, right. 

326
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,520
That was and and that's what we 
expect. 

327
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,040
We expect. 
If you're really good at your 

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00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,920
job, make sure that the next 
person will be equally good, if 

329
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,480
not better. 
Jim Collins and good to great 

330
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,200
calls at level 5 leadership, 
right? 

331
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,640
It was you're really ambitious 
and driven, but you're also very

332
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,000
humble, right? 
It was you're, you're, this is 

333
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,640
I'm. 
I'm doing this for the sake of 

334
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,200
something greater than myself, 
not for myself. 

335
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,520
I think also the way we're 
trained to read the text is that

336
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,560
we're supposed to kind of 
especially from as a Shiva 

337
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,400
students, you know, this 
reverence you have for the avote

338
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,720
and for all of our leaders. 
Is that like we're not supposed 

339
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,160
to focus on the the mistakes, 
right? 

340
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,600
We're not supposed to we, we, we
see them, we're almost creating 

341
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,360
like a superhuman quality where 
the Texas talent like screaming 

342
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,320
at us not to do that, right? 
Like in terms of like, they make

343
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:46,880
mistakes. 
Yeah. 

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00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,960
So if I could just Benji like, 
just like maybe soften that a 

345
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,880
little bit. 
I think, I think that these were

346
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,280
extraordinary, extraordinary 
human beings. 

347
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,880
And the Torah also includes the 
points of maturation and 

348
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,320
challenge that they have, right?
So that they can actually feel 

349
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,120
like they can speak to me. 
It was, if Yosef is going to 

350
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:14,880
deal with some of his, maybe 
we'll call it, you know, whether

351
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,200
it's confidence issues or, or, 
or relationship within the 

352
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,520
family, he's going to have to, 
he's going to have to manage 

353
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,760
those things. 
Moshe is going to have to manage

354
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,440
his public speaking issues, 
right? 

355
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:26,840
Everyone's going to have to 
manage. 

356
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,720
And then you say, wow, look, 
look who Yosef became. 

357
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,480
Oh my gosh, look who Moshe 
became. 

358
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,960
He can't speak. 
And now Oz Yoshir Moshe. 

359
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,520
And now he's this beautiful song
and he gives his farewell 

360
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,280
address and he had Dibro. 
Everything he does is with the 

361
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,960
with the dibor, right? 
With the strength of his speech.

362
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,720
You know, Shalaka Tami, let my 
people go. 

363
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,040
And then you say, if you can 
lean into your greatest 

364
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,760
challenges, look who you can 
become. 

365
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,560
I don't think you have to be 
extraordinary to do that, 

366
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,200
really. 
Right the the the tour is is 

367
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,640
taking us on their journey of 
their process of maturation and 

368
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,160
the process of becoming the 
extraordinary people that they 

369
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,640
became. 
Instead of just putting them out

370
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,200
there, as already you know, a 
ready made product, the Torah is

371
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,360
showing you the steps taken 
towards becoming as great as 

372
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:22,240
they did, but to let us draw 
from that and improve ourselves 

373
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,480
and and get ourselves. 
We don't we're so used to this. 

374
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,160
We're so used to this Betsy like
that we we take it for granted. 

375
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,560
But every once in a while, I 
have the tremendous foot, the 

376
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,240
privilege of teaching someone in
the process of conversion. 

377
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,120
And, you know, especially 
someone who comes from, you 

378
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:40,960
know, a Catholic tradition will 
say to me, what was appealing to

379
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,600
me about the Torah was this. 
It wasn't a collection of 

380
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,520
Saints. 
Like I could see myself. 

381
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,080
I, I saw, I saw myself and my 
own journey and their journey. 

382
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,920
I mean, it's just such a 
profound thing. 

383
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,680
And we take it for granted that 
the Torah says, well, here's 

384
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,000
King David and here's King 
David's fall. 

385
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,520
How should we, how should we 
treat the fall? 

386
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,640
Here's King Solomon. 
We're not hiding. 

387
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,200
We're not hiding almost right. 
We're not hiding all the wives 

388
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,120
and all the horses and all the, 
and we're, and God is God's not 

389
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:11,320
hiding. 
And God says you will call be 

390
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,320
called to account for that. 
And it's, it's, and that itself 

391
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,680
is pretty remarkable because you
might say, we don't want to 

392
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,240
hide. 
You know, let's, let's put these

393
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,760
things, you know, in the back 
pages so no one sees them. 

394
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,880
They didn't do that. 
Very true, very true. 

395
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,640
So where, where have we gone 
wrong? 

396
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,760
How do, how do we get back to, 
you know, what we've obviously 

397
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,760
lost touch with this in, in the 
modern day? 

398
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,560
So how, how do we kind of, you 
know, bring people back to this 

399
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,280
kind of careful study of the 
Torah? 

400
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,760
I mean, I think people study the
Torah very carefully. 

401
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,200
I, I, I. 
I'm actually always overwhelmed 

402
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,440
by the kind of care again, we 
take for granted. 

403
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,240
But if I, when I peek into a 
bait me drash in the on campus 

404
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,800
and you know, you see people 
sitting like, you know, I, I, 

405
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,400
I've been on another college 
campus, you know, I've worked on

406
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,040
other college campuses, you 
know, and, and there's people 

407
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,240
sort of sitting on the quad and 
having a great time and like, 

408
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,760
and then you see students 
sitting in a bait me drash and 

409
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,200
picking apart everywhere because
every word matters. 

410
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:20,400
You know, for me part of it is 
saying step step way and and and

411
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,960
and and see. 
The see the larger. 

412
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,000
Right now. 
And it's hard to do that if you 

413
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,720
don't see books, right, if you 
see lines, but not books and 

414
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,360
books in relation to other 
books. 

415
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:35,280
Or you know, for that matter, so
much in Gemara or so much of 

416
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,160
Gemara is not only a discussion 
of Halacha and Agatha, it's also

417
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,400
Masa Shahaya. 
What was, what did this rabbi 

418
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,520
do? 
What did that rabbi do? 

419
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,000
Look, I'm going to, I'm going to
follow. 

420
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,000
I'm even going to lie under the 
bed, right? 

421
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,800
I was like, I need to figure out
who, who should I be in the 

422
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,120
world? 
So I think that, that it's not 

423
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,960
only a biblical strain, I think 
it's, you know, it's very, very 

424
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,320
much a rabbinic strain is what 
do we expect of the, of, of 

425
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,000
greatness? 
And how do we, and how do we 

426
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,760
cultivate greatness? 
And I, I don't think that there 

427
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,920
are, I think there are a lot of 
great, great leaders, But I do 

428
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:11,440
think that this cultural trend 
of, of beating up on people is, 

429
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,480
and, and, and it's, and it's 
really, it's impossible. 

430
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,720
It's just so hard to manage. 
You know, I have, I'm just going

431
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,640
to be honest with you. 
I have in my personal e-mail and

432
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,120
in my professional e-mail, I 
have two folders. 

433
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,440
You ready for my folders? 
I have a lot of folders, but two

434
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:32,280
folders, 1 is nice emails for a 
hard day and one is terrible 

435
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,920
mean emails. 
And you know what you say? 

436
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,320
Like, why would you save the 
mean ones? 

437
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,840
Because sometimes I have to 
sometimes I, I have to actually 

438
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,640
without, without ascribing them 
to anyone. 

439
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,360
I have to hold up a mirror to 
what people say. 

440
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,120
Like they either have to see 
like look back on this. 

441
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,840
Would you want, would you want 
to get this e-mail on? 

442
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,760
Here's this rabbi. 
This rabbi has brisked your kid,

443
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,480
bar mitzvahed your kid, had 
married your kid, right? 

444
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,800
This rabbi was here when your 
parents were sick and you and, 

445
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,960
and, and they passed away. 
And now you're upset about 

446
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,840
something and you, and you write
with this degree of fury and 

447
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,200
disrespect and you send it out 
in the middle of the night, like

448
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,280
hello. 
And you know what, what's 

449
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,080
interesting is when you bring 
this to people's attention, 

450
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,960
like, it's not me, it's that 
guy, right? 

451
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,520
And I was like, I would never do
that. 

452
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,680
I, I wanted to share with you. 
I, I gave, I've spoken about 

453
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,840
this before, but I gave an 
assignment in one of my Wexner 

454
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,080
classes to, to an adult group 
many years ago. 

455
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,360
And I said, you know, we were 
talking about leadership. 

456
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,600
I said, you know, listen for 
homework in addition to whatever

457
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,560
I get to read, I want you to 
write your rabbi. 

458
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,600
Just just write your rabbi an 
e-mail, like preferably a thank 

459
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,160
you note on like an actual piece
of paper, but OK, send an e-mail

460
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,680
so that, you know, I meet them 
two weeks later. 

461
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,040
I said, well, how did that go? 
Not everyone did the homework. 

462
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,040
I know it's a shock. 
But one of them said to me, I, I

463
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,240
need to tell you something. 
I went home and I wrote this. 

464
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,840
I wrote this e-mail and I wrote 
about the significance and the 

465
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,680
influence of this rabbi in my 
life. 

466
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,120
And I got an, I got an instant 
reply, an instant reply. 

467
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,400
And the rabbi who I sent it to, 
my rabbi said he was crying when

468
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,600
he read my e-mail. 
And he said, Erica, I am 

469
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,040
embarrassed that I didn't think 
to do this on my own. 

470
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,280
How is it that this person has 
had a foundational impact on my 

471
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,400
family for decades and it would 
not dawn on me to sit down and 

472
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,240
take 5 minutes and say that? 
And by the way, teachers, 

473
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,200
teachers are under siege. 
We don't pay them a lot. 

474
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,080
And what we pay them, what we 
could give them is the gift, the

475
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:49,360
gift of words, of loving speech.
But it's not, it's, it's fault 

476
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:51,440
finding all the time. 
And I, and I think that's, 

477
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,400
that's if that's just going to 
affect the quality of people who

478
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,160
go into the field. 
Is that just the consequence of 

479
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,600
like, you know, keyboard warrior
culture where people are just 

480
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,600
behind a screen? 
And what do you think that? 

481
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,560
Why do you think it's happening?
I think some of it's that in 

482
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,760
fact, to be really interested, I
mean, you could never get away 

483
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,840
with it to say if you want to 
reach me, you know, send me a 

484
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,200
letter or, or in person, but 
that wouldn't work. 

485
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,600
I think a lot of it has to do 
with the consumer culture, 

486
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,800
right? 
Which is, you know, we treat, we

487
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,720
treat institutions as like I buy
things, I'm paying tuition when 

488
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,800
someone says to me, I don't have
to say thank you, I pay these 

489
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,760
employees, I'm like, what? 
Right. 

490
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,640
It's like, remind me never to 
work for you. 

491
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,880
So I, I think that there, I 
think that there's a harshness 

492
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,520
and some of it, you're right is,
is, is the screen that, that 

493
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,600
prevents the Panim El Panim, you
know, that critical exposure to 

494
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,040
the face. 
And I think some of it is that 

495
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,840
we use the same. 
First of all, you shouldn't use 

496
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,240
that language and things that 
you consume when you're talking 

497
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,760
to people. 
But yeah, it's bad. 

498
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,600
It's bad. 
We could do better. 

499
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,120
Yeah, we could do better. 
Yeah, you mentioned that. 

500
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:01,480
I think the disposable culture 
that we have where I can order 

501
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,200
something on Amazon, it'll 
arrive the same day and we just 

502
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,520
have no, nothing has value 
anymore. 

503
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,560
It's just we lose patience. 
We don't have, you know, the 

504
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,840
same appreciation for things. 
So it's it's a problem. 

505
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,640
We're not, we're not sending our
kids into these positions. 

506
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,000
I'm, I'm very proud to say that 
I have a son who's the head of 

507
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,000
school. 
I'm very proud to say that when 

508
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,040
he said I want to be a teacher, 
it was like, it was like such a 

509
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,200
validation. 
It was like, this is like my one

510
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,040
of my happiest days, right? 
It was like, and you know, all 

511
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,960
my four children picked 
beautiful professions. 

512
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,800
And I think the message we gave 
them was not you need to pick 

513
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,280
professions where you make a lot
of money. 

514
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,240
We give them. 
You need to pick professions 

515
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,320
where you make a contribution to
society. 

516
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,080
And I tell my students that all 
the time, this is not about 

517
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,800
replacing your parents 
financially. 

518
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,280
When you're thinking about a 
career, what kind of 

519
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,880
contribution in any field, in 
any field, what's the 

520
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,160
contribution to society? 
How you changing things, how 

521
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,080
you, how you bring goodness into
the world? 

522
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,960
And, and you know, the sad thing
is that you see often those 

523
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,680
students, you know, 10 or 15 
years later and they sort of 

524
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,760
fast track themselves in a, in 
a, in a business capacity to do 

525
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,360
something. 
They really didn't think about 

526
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:08,280
the meaning equation early 
enough and they're really burnt 

527
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,720
out and unhappy and that's, 
that's unhealthy. 

528
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,560
That's not. 
It so I I want to refine what I 

529
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,280
said before because I mentioned 
people aren't reading. 

530
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:18,280
Obviously there are plenty of 
people who are reading the tour 

531
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,160
very carefully. 
What I mean is that by by not 

532
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,160
understanding the big picture 
like. 

533
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,000
They're not reading expensively.
How about that? 

534
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,200
Expensively. 
There you go, there you go. 

535
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,360
That's that's why you're you and
I'm. 

536
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,600
Me When you need a word, go to 
Doctor Brown. 

537
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,840
Yeah, yeah. 
That's like she always knows the

538
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,440
word. 
You're good. 

539
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:36,880
You're too good to be. 
Yeah. 

540
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,720
So, so really, you know, we were
talking about this off camera, 

541
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,640
but like, you know, there's a, 
there's a level of I call it, 

542
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,080
let's say pots and pans Judaism.
The people are focused on like 

543
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,920
the minutiae a little bit too 
much sometimes where not to say 

544
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,400
that's not important, but 
there's, there's a much bigger 

545
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,040
picture that you lose out on 
when you do that. 

546
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,840
And, and there's also just like 
the level of like when you, we 

547
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,880
were talking about, you know, 
going to the, to the Yu book 

548
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,800
sale and you go to, you know, 
you, you see what the kind of 

549
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,920
stuff people are interested in. 
And, and honestly, it ties into,

550
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,440
in my opinion, what we were also
discussing, which is, you know, 

551
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,400
the type of leadership we see 
today. 

552
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,400
We don't really like after 
October 7th. 

553
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,680
Everything we see is kind of 
like from the rabbits either. 

554
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,520
Gogu Magog or you know, fire and
brimstone, you know, end of days

555
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,240
kind of chatter or it's going to
be like Segulot and and like 

556
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,280
kind of magical weird stuff. 
So. 

557
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:33,720
I, I I. 
Don't know who you're talking 

558
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:34,520
to, Benji. 
I don't know. 

559
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,040
We got we talking. 
To many people, honestly. 

560
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:44,600
Yeah, I, I think, look, this is 
not new, but you know, I, I, I 

561
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480
worked in my dissertation, I 
worked in the 16th century and 

562
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,160
it's very it was it was very 
common in the century after the 

563
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,120
expulsion from the Iberian 
peninsula with this, you know, 

564
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,520
havoc of the diaspora was, was 
to sort of predict the end of 

565
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,680
days when you wrote a safe air 
either in an instruction or the 

566
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,080
other conclusion. 
And I think when you go through 

567
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,520
really desperate times, you 
think, how am I going to get on 

568
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,880
the other side of this? 
Like what, what could I do? 

569
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,280
I, I, you know, I mentioned to 
you that I've been working on 

570
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,000
this book morning has broken 
faith after October 7th and 

571
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,200
looking at texts through the 
lens of October 7th and thinking

572
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,640
it's like I'm, I'm, I have 
students of adult students who 

573
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,520
are just saying this is the end 
of my world. 

574
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,280
I never thought this would 
happen. 

575
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,560
You know, I mean, we're, we're 
we're blessed now to have some 

576
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,400
release of hostages and I don't 
know about you. 

577
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,720
I could watch, I could watch one
of those videos all day long. 

578
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,360
I just press, you know, like 
rewind of families reuniting and

579
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,760
I just look, just constantly cry
and I think to myself, how do we

580
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,080
get here? 
How do we get here in the world?

581
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,280
And I think there are moments 
where there's it's so dark. 

582
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,080
It's so dark and I and I get the
people say, let me just find a 

583
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,280
simple solution. 
There's going to be a red 

584
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,120
bracelet somewhere, right? 
It's just because, because 

585
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,120
whatever complex political 
situation we're in, we're in 

586
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,240
this very dire, very dark place 
in parts of the world and, and 

587
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,400
for our people. 
And yeah, there's an engine of 

588
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,120
goodness that all of us need. 
And I don't know about you. 

589
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,400
I I wish that things were more 
simple. 

590
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,000
Totally. 
I think really for for me, I I 

591
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,840
get why that, you know where 
that comes from and I 

592
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,520
understand. 
But like in terms of leadership,

593
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,480
like the voice of Rabbi Sachs, 
for example, today is it would 

594
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,600
have been very, very necessary 
for the perfect time. 

595
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,120
Exactly the TriMet so necessary.
And like like I was recently 

596
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,280
listening to an interview he did
with Barry Weiss a few years ago

597
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,480
on anti-Semitism and like how it
mutates. 

598
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:46,880
Yeah. 
And and you know. 

599
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,080
The. 
Yeah, the the rise of populism 

600
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,440
and I'm like, this is like 
prophecy. 

601
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,040
People are not going to 
appreciate this for the next 100

602
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,640
years, unfortunately. 
But he like like a voice I got 

603
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,840
by sex. 
Where where are we were? 

604
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,360
We were saying this before. 
Like they're all the people 

605
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:04,920
we're looking up to. 
We're looking for is like 

606
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,440
comedians. 
We had Ami Kozak on recently 

607
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,040
who's like very outspoken about 
Israel. 

608
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,800
We have all, there's all these 
Instagram influencers and 

609
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,360
mothers that those are the kind 
of leaders that are stepping up,

610
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,760
but we're not really. 
Even the word influencer, right?

611
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,040
Even the word influencer, where 
someone, someone said something 

612
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,600
to me, Doctor Brown, maybe one 
day you'll be an influencer. 

613
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,680
I'm like, oh, OK. 
Like I like, I don't know, like 

614
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,440
what even they, what even they 
mean by that. 

615
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,800
But because I think, you know, 
when I think of Rob Sulvacic, I 

616
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,880
think you want to talk about 
influence someone who gave 

617
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,640
smirka to over 2000, you know, 
2000 young rabbis, someone who, 

618
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,640
who, who created like this very 
sophisticated. 

619
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,720
I think that's what you were 
talking about before Benji, 

620
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,000
about where's the sophisticated 
Torah? 

621
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,640
Where is sophisticated Torah? 
And, and, and, and, and the 

622
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,040
problem is also people don't 
read to the same extent, right? 

623
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,520
They, they're, they're getting 
their, they're consuming content

624
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,880
in very, in very small bits. 
And you know, as a writer, it's,

625
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,920
it's very discouraging. 
You think to yourself, is this 

626
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:01,640
the end of the book? 
I don't think it's the end of 

627
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,800
the book. 
I don't. 

628
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,280
But I, I, I do think it's hard 
when people say, you know, 

629
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,920
Erica, don't write, don't write 
such long books, like just short

630
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,720
books, short books, pamphlets. 
I'm going to start with 

631
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,080
pamphlets now. 
You know, I, it's funny that I'm

632
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,360
I'm before we get to the next 
question, just reminded me of 

633
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,640
something like even I have like 
family members who are like, can

634
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,640
you make your, can you dumb your
podcast down? 

635
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,560
And I don't even think it's so 
like sophisticated, but like 

636
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,240
it's not. 
But but The thing is like, first

637
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,280
of all, they want shorter. 
They want just like little. 

638
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,960
I'm like, listen, you want, you 
want to get those inspirational 

639
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,400
pockets. 
This isn't going to be, you 

640
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,160
know, like I, I understand. 
Attention span is low. 

641
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,760
All about attention span. 
It's also like, you know, like 

642
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,400
we're, we're supposed to, you 
know, like when, when you raise 

643
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,480
a child to, you're supposed to 
raise a child to, to hang the 

644
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,520
Rimonim on the Torah. 
You're not supposed to lower the

645
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,320
Torah for the child. 
So. 

646
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,480
I love that. 
Yeah, I heard Rabbi Duak mention

647
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,840
that it was beautiful. 
And really that's, that's kind 

648
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,000
of like, it's discouraging, but 
hopefully things will turn 

649
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,840
around, you know? 
Well, I, you know, there's, 

650
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,320
there the beautiful thing is 
Benji, that there is room for 

651
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,760
everybody in this tent. 
And so if you, if, if your Torah

652
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:16,159
is really, you know, is, is, you
know, reading certain sukim 

653
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,440
while you're doing a Khalbek and
you're sharing what that collar 

654
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,679
looks like on Instagram and 
you're or you're in a bait me 

655
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:25,280
drash and you're learning a 
toast vote. 

656
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,400
You know, we have a place for 
all of you in Judaism. 

657
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,880
For a long time, it was only 
about scholarship. 

658
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,760
You know, I, I run some programs
for for women, women authors. 

659
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,159
And someone said to me, like, 
when are you going to do that 

660
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,400
for men? 
And I go, you've had the program

661
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,679
for 2000 years, like that's time
to share. 

662
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,560
And, and, and we actually can do
that because there are so many 

663
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,400
spaces that people can have an 
experience of Judaism. 

664
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,040
I always think about like a 
ladder, right? 

665
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,080
Like Yaakov's ladder. 
So you come in at this place and

666
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,640
maybe you'll go up two rungs and
and you know, like, and you're, 

667
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,080
but so many more people feel 
engaged in Judaism. 

668
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,120
It's such a beautiful thing. 
So there's a lot of ways to look

669
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,640
at it. 
You could say dumbing down, or 

670
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,960
you could say we've actually 
expanded the ladder and people 

671
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,200
can come in who maybe Kamara 
wasn't their thing, you know, 

672
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,720
but something else is their 
thing. 

673
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:17,920
And they, and they found, they 
found company and they found 

674
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,720
wisdom and they found a life 
that's generative and spiritual.

675
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,040
And I think that's, you know, 
that's important. 

676
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,920
I think one of the most 
encouraging things is the fact 

677
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,800
that technology like will allow 
the next generations, our 

678
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,240
grandchildren to like watch 
Rabbi Sachs, for example, or any

679
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,160
like you can't do that with 
Rabbi Akiva. 

680
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,400
You can't do that with. 
You can consume now in a 

681
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,480
different way. 
So I. 

682
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,400
Think, but you can you can 
access Rabbi Akiva in a 

683
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,680
different way too. 
Exactly. 

684
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,560
Yeah. 
So that's, you know, that's and 

685
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,800
also, look, you know, we're 
talking, you know, we've 

686
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,760
mentioned Norman Lamb and Rabbi 
Rabbi Sachs and Rabbi Salavechik

687
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,120
or Rabbi Akiva. 
You know, we're, we're in the 

688
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,720
business, since I'm in the 
business of growing the next 

689
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,840
generation of the, you know, 
like that to me, you know, books

690
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,000
are one thing and they're and 
they're really important just 

691
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:09,160
from for my own creative energy.
But but you know, our job is to 

692
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,200
say, how do we grow the next? 
You know, everyone is unique, 

693
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,920
but how are we going to grow the
next, the next great, the next 

694
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,880
people with the in the prophetic
voice. 

695
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,560
That's the job. 
That's the job. 

696
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,360
And if you say you know, if you 
have children, you say, you 

697
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,560
know. 
How do I cultivate the prophetic

698
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,160
voice in a child? 
Well said. 

699
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,480
A great, that's a great point 
for your point. 

700
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,320
I have a four year old and then.
I have. 

701
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,640
What's your 4 year old's name? 
Emmanuel, Emmanuel. 

702
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,080
Emmanuel. 
Emmanuel is a beautiful name. 

703
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:49,600
Lots of expectations, yeah. 
Yeah, it's pressure. 

704
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,440
It's pressure because because I,
I, I, I want him to access 

705
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,640
Judaism in a, in an expensive 
way as you, as you stated. 

706
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,880
And you don't know exactly how 
to navigate that because there's

707
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,760
so many, you know? 
But you know, we have beautiful 

708
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,920
stories and helping them say, 
well, what would you do if 

709
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,920
you're in that position or you 
take a moral dilemma and you 

710
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,280
say, you know, how would you 
think about this? 

711
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:17,520
Well, how would you think about 
it? 

712
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,920
Here's how I think about it. 
It was part of it is the 

713
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,960
critical thinking piece. 
And that's the, you know, once 

714
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,120
you can develop critical 
thinking, you can, you know, you

715
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,720
can help shape lots of different
arenas. 

716
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,320
Thank you that. 
Was great. 

717
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,560
So in your chapter on Parshad 
Kitisa, you delve into the 

718
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,560
repeated phrase I'm Kishe Arif, 
a stiff necked people and 

719
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,280
explore the very real problem of
stubbornness that inhabits us 

720
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,360
all. 
What insights can we take from 

721
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,080
this analysis regarding 
leadership and its challenges? 

722
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,400
Yeah, so I've been thinking 
about this a lot because since 

723
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,680
we last spoke, actually in 
December, I had, I had neck 

724
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,920
surgery. 
So it was very hard to move my 

725
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,200
neck and I, I felt like, oh, now
I am part of the Amkhshya Orif 

726
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,080
because they, they went in the 
neck, right. 

727
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,840
So I have a scar on my neck and,
and so I've been thinking about 

728
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,480
neck motility and mobility and 
as a metaphor, right, as first 

729
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,520
of all, just the, the, you know,
the physical pain of it. 

730
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,160
But then, but then also like, 
what's the metaphor of, of being

731
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,720
able to turn the neck? 
And actually, it's so amazing 

732
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:23,400
when you can turn your neck, 
right? 

733
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,640
It's like, I didn't appreciate 
it. 

734
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,920
But when your neck is like when 
you're stuck and you sort of you

735
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,760
and you feel, you know, pain in 
the stretch and you say to 

736
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,480
yourself, if, if, what if I 
could not move my neck, I, my 

737
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,520
view of the world would be so 
narrow and I wouldn't be able to

738
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,120
say, Oh, here's someone to the 
right of me, Here's someone to 

739
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,120
the left of me, right, Or maybe 
here's someone behind me. 

740
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,360
And, and I don't mean to reduce 
it to such a simplistic, you 

741
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,040
know, choreography, but I think 
there's something about moral 

742
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,720
rigidity and spiritual rigidity 
that has to do with this lack of

743
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:03,440
mobility. 
I, I, I won't see, I'll give you

744
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,400
an example. 
And it's such a small, small 

745
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,520
thing. 
And it says to me so much, I 

746
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,440
feel that a lot of leaders that 
I know who are really 

747
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,160
exceptional, they're always 
turning their necks. 

748
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,200
So I'll give you an example. 
I walk in the office and someone

749
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,440
is at the front door. 
They're a few feet ahead of me. 

750
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,320
They don't even look to see if 
there's someone behind them. 

751
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,040
So they just go through the 
door. 

752
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,680
They don't open the door. 
And then you'll see, you'll see 

753
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,680
like like a Menchie student and 
they look and they see that 

754
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,000
you're waiting and they open the
door. 

755
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,600
Like they don't ignore you. 
They don't make you invisible. 

756
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,040
And when you think about 
community building, you have to 

757
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,160
get granular. 
And the Maharal talks about 

758
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,360
this, you know this, this 
circle, the power of the Mahal, 

759
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,800
the power of the circle. 
The circle is very powerful 

760
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,200
because when you dance in a 
circle, the shape stays the same

761
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,720
and you can see everybody even 
as it expands. 

762
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,920
But you know, when you go to a 
wedding, a Jewish wedding and 

763
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,880
everyone is dancing like crazy 
and there's certain people, 

764
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,080
they're on the edge and they're 
always bringing other people 

765
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,200
into the circle, right? 
Oh, you should come in. 

766
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,840
Oh, the ants is that you should 
come in. 

767
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,560
And there's some people the 
dancing is schvitzing in the 

768
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,960
center and they they don't care 
what anyone else is doing that, 

769
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,120
you know, I get my foot stepped 
on 100 times, right? 

770
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,800
It's not not comfortable with IL
two, Let me just say. 

771
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,000
And then you think to yourself, 
this is really a metaphor for 

772
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,320
for community building and for 
leadership is. 

773
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,240
Can you look from place to place
and not and not just ahead of 

774
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:30,440
you? 
Because the the people who can 

775
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,880
do that, they bring other people
in. 

776
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,800
They understand what belonging 
means. 

777
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:41,120
And it's as small as do when I 
walk into shul, do I walk in and

778
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,880
look at the person to the left 
and the right and the front and 

779
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,880
behind me. 
And I'm just a cognizant that 

780
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,160
I'm praying in a space with 
other people who may have other 

781
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,040
needs. 
And there's some people I called

782
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,520
the Orthodox there. 
They walk in, they look at you. 

783
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,040
If they don't know you, they 
immediately turn. 

784
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,640
They don't smile, they 
immediately, you just 

785
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,480
immediately turn it. 
And once you start seeing this, 

786
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,920
you cannot Unsee this. 
I'm sorry, I just ruined, I just

787
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,960
ruined things for you. 
But you can't Unsee this. 

788
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,200
And then you start to say what 
would happen if every time you 

789
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,640
looked at someone you didn't 
know, your automatic response 

790
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,600
was to smile. 
And that's a small thing, but 

791
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,760
it's also an active leadership 
is if I can, if I can generate 

792
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,480
some sense of belonging between 
me and you. 

793
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:34,200
I, I've said this before on a, 
on a podcast that there's a, 

794
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,280
there's a, a deli called 
Zingerman's and they do customer

795
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,520
service there in a deli in Ann 
Arbor. 

796
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,960
I, I've never been to Ann Arbor.
I, I don't eat trade food, but 

797
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,400
they have this customer service 
thing that someone put me on to.

798
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,520
It was a little book. 
They have a rule, They have a 

799
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,720
rule. 
And their rule is that if you're

800
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:53,720
employed there and you see 
someone with a customer within 

801
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:57,400
10 feet, you have to look up and
within 4 feet you have to smile.

802
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,640
the IT was they're giving 
Shurim, right? 

803
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,960
Shurim for here is when someone 
is in your orbit. 

804
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,880
And I actually that that scares 
me about orthodoxy right now is 

805
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,680
the lack of friendliness. 
It's the lack even to our own. 

806
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,240
It's really painful. 
And if you're going to change 

807
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:19,520
something culturally, you want 
to be a real influencer, 

808
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:27,400
influence people like that. 
And the inability to to adapt to

809
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,800
the others around you in a 
simple way of even like you said

810
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,280
with the greetings and just the 
noticing the other person. 

811
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,920
It's also a segue into also 
being able to notice and accept 

812
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,560
other people's ideas. 
Yeah, correct. 

813
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,440
And as it's the metaphor for 
other, you know, for other 

814
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,800
things, I got called out. 
I'm just going to be honest with

815
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,520
you. 
I and I confess, I got called 

816
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,240
out. 
So I, I, I saw someone at a 

817
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:52,520
kiddush. 
I'm not a big kiddush person. 

818
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,560
And I saw someone and I wanted 
to talk to her and she was 

819
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,160
talking to someone else. 
But you know what? 

820
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,520
I walked in and I said, oh, I'm 
meaning to talk to you. 

821
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,680
And she wrote to me and she 
said, you know, I was standing 

822
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,680
next to her and you paid me no 
attention. 

823
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,720
I can't even tell you the the 
shame that I felt. 

824
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,600
I immediately wrote to her and I
apologized and I, I went out of 

825
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,160
my way and I just said, gosh, 
like this is happening 

826
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:15,920
everywhere, right? 
We just don't pay attention. 

827
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,880
And then if I can't take you and
how do I take in your ideas? 

828
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,680
How do I say, oh, like, I don't,
I only have to listen to the 

829
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,800
news that, that affirms my view 
of the world. 

830
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,640
I didn't grow up that way. 
I, I, I, I don't imagine you 

831
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,080
grew up that way, right? 
News outlets, It's like, it's 

832
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,920
like this constant affirming of 
your beliefs as opposed to, you 

833
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,920
know, the challenging of belief,
which is what makes us smarter 

834
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,240
and more thoughtful. 
You know, one of the things I'm 

835
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,400
I'm very proud of, you know, are
the shul that we go to that Ben 

836
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:50,160
C and I go to like the rabbis 
and and the families are so 

837
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,040
cognizant of the staff that 
works there. 

838
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,680
That's on it. 
Wait, what shul is it because we

839
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,080
got to give a shout out we got? 
To Shari Rachman even great. 

840
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,440
And I just, it's, it's like 
really, it's just really 

841
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,080
beautiful. 
Like to see like first of all, 

842
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,120
the guy who like, you know, runs
the staff, he's like, he treated

843
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,640
like family. 
His daughter runs around the 

844
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,040
shul and you know, he like he 
feels like everyone he's but 

845
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,880
it's not just, it's not fake. 
It's like everybody treats him 

846
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,440
well and he treats everyone else
well and he's like loves his 

847
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,280
joke. 
And I'm like, this is actually 

848
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,240
one of the proudest moment like 
feelings that I have from our 

849
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:27,360
community that like that they 
actually are paying attention to

850
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,720
this stuff and they're not, you 
know, they're not just ignoring.

851
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:31,440
It you, you're a Spartic, right?
Yes. 

852
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,280
Yes, it's a Persian shul. 
There you go. 

853
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,840
Well, it's not always the case. 
I don't know if it's always the.

854
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,960
Case I grew up in Deal and I 
could say I'm not Spartic, I'm 

855
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:45,240
not Syrian, but I can say that 
the respect for rabbis just 

856
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:50,400
exponentially different in my in
my humble estimation, Modi has a

857
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,120
whole, you know, like lots of 
skits about this. 

858
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:53,760
But yeah, well, it's not just 
that. 

859
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,720
Even even elders, you know, like
elders community. 

860
00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:01,360
My when I grew up in deal, if if
an elder walked in, you always, 

861
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,680
like you always greeted that 
person or stood up in front of 

862
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,800
that person. 
It was, it was. 

863
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,160
It's a very different, it's a 
very different mentality. 

864
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,560
There's, there's one elder in 
our community who Mr. Besalian, 

865
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,680
actually he's, he's just like, 
he's not, he's not a rabbi, but 

866
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,520
everyone calls him rabbi and 
everyone stands up for him and 

867
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,000
the rabbi stand up for him. 
He's just like, because he's 

868
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,040
just a wise person who's who 
knows about our history and it's

869
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,240
just been through so much. 
And like, you know, I, I love 

870
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:28,040
seeing that and I love seeing 
but, but one of the things I 

871
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,320
think you mentioned is this like
this lack of pain. 

872
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:32,920
And I'm not saying we do it 
across the world. 

873
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,200
If if visitors sometimes come 
in, I've heard people say, Hey, 

874
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,400
you know, like nobody get paid 
attention to us. 

875
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,320
But but overall, I just think 
that like the Medot factor is 

876
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,560
something that I don't know what
it is like more. 

877
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,000
If we ask our children, when 
you're with other people, do 

878
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,080
they feel heard and do they feel
seen? 

879
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,560
Do they feel heard? 
You know, if we said you come 

880
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,920
home from shul and the first 
question was not what it's so 

881
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,480
and so, where not, who is so and
so with was did you feel heard 

882
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,360
and did you feel seen? 
Did you hear and did you see 

883
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,200
others? 
I think that's, you know, that's

884
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,760
a, that's a deep engagement, 
especially in times of 

885
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,280
technology. 
It's a deep engagement. 

886
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,400
I'm I'm regularly aware of 
people. 

887
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,120
I'm speaking to them and they're
typing or they're shopping or 

888
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,840
whatever. 
And it's like part of me is 

889
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,640
like, should I just say, I know 
that you're typing, so I'm going

890
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,840
to hang up and when you're 
ready, I'll call you back. 

891
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,200
Should I do it? 
What do you think, fancy? 

892
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,120
Should I do it? 
That's a good. 

893
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,720
Idea all right to go soon, 
gentlemen. 

894
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:34,120
It's great talking to you. 
Any last questions? 

895
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,280
Yes. 
Can I ask you there was. 

896
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,920
OK. 
So you know what if we have one 

897
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,880
more question, I'm going to can 
I'm going to go with with with 

898
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,080
Parsha Tildot, if that's OK. 
Tildot. 

899
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,520
OK, Fantastic. 
Is that all right? 

900
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:49,640
Great. 
Parsha. 

901
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,760
Yeah. 
There's a lot of psychology 

902
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,040
there and a lot of luck going on
there. 

903
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,480
So, the chapter of Parsha Tildot
titled The Lies in Leadership 

904
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:03,240
explores the psychological role 
of lies and their treatment in 

905
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,480
the story of Rivkan Yaakov. 
How do lies intersect with 

906
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,880
leadership, and what can we 
learn from this narrative? 

907
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,200
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a 
great question. 

908
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,680
It's such a, it's such a 
profound question because we, 

909
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,040
you know, Medevar Shekhar 
Tirhak, you know, on the one 

910
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,920
hand, we say, you know, stay far
away from, stay far away from 

911
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,200
deception. 
And on the other hand, sometimes

912
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,160
you, you can't be entirely 
honest about something that's 

913
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,040
going on in leadership. 
And I'll give you a great 

914
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,080
example. 
You have to fire someone, right?

915
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,200
And you, you, you don't want 
your kila to know what's exactly

916
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,760
going on because it's not their 
business, their legal issues. 

917
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,200
There's also kavod issues, 
right? 

918
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,560
You want to treat someone with 
dignity, you know, so, so there.

919
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,040
And, and you know, I'm not going
into the halachic components of 

920
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:53,800
whether you can tell a white lie
or not. 

921
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,720
I think it's very important not 
to lie ever, not to lie to your 

922
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,480
children, not to you know, that 
they, they see you as, as, as a 

923
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,320
person of honesty. 
And yet there are larger, there 

924
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,040
are larger, I don't know how to 
say conceits by which people 

925
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,160
have to lead. 
I, I, I, I call it that. 

926
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,360
The tolerable ones are well 
called benign manipulation, 

927
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,320
right? 
And that's, that's a huge 

928
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,520
parenting thing for me, right? 
It's benign manipulation, right?

929
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:21,800
You're trying, you, you have to 
manipulate a situation, but 

930
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,160
you're doing it with every 
benign motive, right? 

931
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,800
So for example, if I say, you 
know, listen, Ben, Ben, you have

932
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,840
to go to, you have to go to 
sleep now, right? 

933
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,760
Do you want to go to sleep now 
or do you want to go 5 minutes 

934
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,840
from now, right? 
So that's benign manipulation. 

935
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,640
I need you to do X. 
So I'm going to give you the 

936
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,320
feeling that you have autonomy. 
You don't really have all the 

937
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:42,360
time. 
You want to take a bath now you 

938
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,000
want to take a bath, you know, 
right. 

939
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:49,160
And, and I think, I think 
sometimes in larger leadership 

940
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:57,080
issues, searches for talent 
replacements, you know, when, 

941
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,240
when things fall. 
But I always say, you know, I 

942
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:02,200
love doing searches 'cause 
they're super, super interesting

943
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,000
on the leadership front knows 
because you have all these 

944
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,400
different stakeholders who all 
think they know exactly what you

945
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,640
need. 
And there's a lot of anxiety. 

946
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,120
Well, because the institution is
going to reflect the leader. 

947
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,080
And we're like this. 
So we're like that. 

948
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,360
And, and I always say you have 
to do 2 things. 

949
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,000
You have to, when you're, when 
you're doing a search, you have 

950
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,720
to identify talent, you know, 
candidates and you have to hold 

951
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:30,480
the center of the institution. 
Finding candidates is actually 

952
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,240
easier than making sure that you
look, hold the institution. 

953
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:37,320
And sometimes in order to do 
that, you have to, it's not 

954
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,840
lying, but you can't tell 
everybody everything. 

955
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,960
You can't, you know, you just 
can't. 

956
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,840
People want to know, they want 
transparency, they want gossip. 

957
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:46,880
You can't. 
It's not, it's not OK. 

958
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,960
And the times where I've run 
something and I just, and I had 

959
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,480
to say I have to take executive 
privilege. 

960
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,600
I can't share with you a piece 
of information because it's it 

961
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,920
would gravely harm someone. 
So you just have to trust me 

962
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,160
that this is not a candidate we 
can move forward with, right? 

963
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:07,880
And that's, you know, I'm not 
lying, but I'm withholding. 

964
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,120
So I think there's all these, 
you know, sort of edges, right? 

965
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:15,360
So, you know, benign 
manipulation, withholding that, 

966
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,960
that we do to protect someone's 
dignity in a leadership 

967
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,280
situation. 
And by the way, this is 

968
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,680
particularly, you know, 
mentioned about, about being 

969
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,640
older. 
What happens when you have 

970
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,200
someone, you know, rabbi in a 
community who's getting older 

971
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,360
and, and he's no longer leading,
but you have to protect his 

972
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,240
dignity and you can't, you know,
how do you, how do you do that 

973
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,120
thoughtfully? 
It's, it's, you know, it's, it's

974
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,400
hard, it's hard. 
But if you're if if you assume 

975
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,720
goodwill and you use goodwill, I
think people, people trust your 

976
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:47,120
judgement. 
I hope, I hope. 

977
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,600
Yeah. 
And and those stories are filled

978
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,040
with deception and also the 
payback. 

979
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,400
You know, if you you're the 
deceiver, you get deceived. 

980
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,320
It it becomes the currency with 
which you with which you work. 

981
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,440
And we we paid a really big 
price and safer. 

982
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,720
Appreciate for outright 
dishonesty. 

983
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:10,320
Very important points and I love
how you connected that to 

984
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,800
something that we don't even 
think about that that's really 

985
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,000
amazing. 
So we wanted to thank you. 

986
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,200
I know we went a little overtime
and sorry. 

987
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,360
About that. 
I'm always happy to go overtime 

988
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,440
to tell you it's a lot of fun. 
Thank you so much and we, we 

989
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,880
hope that our listeners can find
where can they find you and your

990
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,920
and get your book. 
All the books are available on 

991
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,880
Amazon or Corin. 
You know, Corin is my wonderful 

992
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:42,440
publisher and I have a website, 
ericabrown.com, Erica with AC 

993
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,960
And I mean, I don't, I don't 
sell the books, but the but you 

994
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,320
know, the they're, they're up 
there and and thank you for 

995
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,720
making books important. 
I really want to thank both of 

996
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:55,560
you for making books and ideas 
important and, you know, like 

997
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,720
committing to raising the 
intellectual and spiritual level

998
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,520
of our people. 
It's really a beautiful thing. 

999
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,240
Thank you for making leadership 
back on the map in In the Jewish

1000
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:06,600
World. 
This is not the first book that 

1001
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,880
you've written on leadership. 
You've had multiple books on 

1002
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,360
leadership and it's it's 
extremely important. 

1003
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,200
Keep doing what you're doing and
we hope to speak to you soon. 

1004
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:17,520
OK. 
Thanks friends. 

1005
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,120
Have a good night. 
Bye. 

1006
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:19,680
Thank you.