1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,520 Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,200 Torah related topics with our esteemed guests. 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,560 By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,000 addressed elsewhere, we aim to shed light on important issues 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,600 and inspire a return to the fundamentals. 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:32,920 Enjoy the show. Thank you for joining the 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,280 Judaism Demystified podcast. We are so honored to have Joshua 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,440 Scarf on the show to discuss his book Architect Torah. 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,480 It's a very fascinating concept. We'd like to ask you to tell us 11 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,360 a little bit about it. Can you share your background in 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,440 architecture and what inspired you to write this unique and 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,240 challenging book exploring the intersection of architecture and 14 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,160 Torah? Sure. 15 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:58,440 Well, thank. First of all, thank you very 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,000 much for having me on your show. It's nice to be here. 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,519 The book, I should say is is arranged according to the weekly 18 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:07,760 Torah portions. It's a it's, it's, it's arranged 19 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,880 by the parsha. Let me let me I think the best 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,640 place to start in terms of explaining my background is with 21 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,320 a story about when I was a student in college. 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,200 I grew up in the suburb of Detroit, Southfield and I after 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,080 spending two years in in in Yeshiva Hartzio and I went to 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,040 University of Michigan to study architecture. 25 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,160 My goal was to become an architect and make Alia 1 26 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,480 semester. We had a a class in 27 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:39,840 architectural history and for our term paper we had to choose 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,000 any it was very open any post World War Two topic that showed 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,360 how architecture could be used for political reasons. 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,480 And so like most of my college work, I wanted to find a topic 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,280 that had to do with either Israel or Judaism. 32 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,400 And I decided that I would write about how the Old City of 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Jerusalem was redeveloped after 1967. 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,280 Now, from going on tours as a kid, I, I, I knew the Cardo and 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,000 I knew the Korva, the Korva synagogue. 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,759 And I wanted to find a third project. 37 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,320 And I was poking around to try and find something. 38 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,120 I found this amazing plan that had been commissioned by, by, by 39 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,840 by the government in the 1970s to design the Kotel Plaza. 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,720 Now, I think a lot of people don't realize that the Kotel 41 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,840 Plaza, the way it is right now, was never intended to be 42 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,640 permanent. That's sort of just where the 43 00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:30,880 bulldozers stopped clearing the residential neighborhood that 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,480 had been there before the war. And after they did that, they 45 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,840 laid down flagstones. And they sort of intended that 46 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,200 to be temporary. But, and then, and then early in 47 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,560 the 1970s, they commissioned, they invited a number of 48 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,080 internationally famous architects to come up with a 49 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,880 permanent design for, for how the quotel would look. 50 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,400 One of the people they invited, the one who ended up winning, 51 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,200 was a young Israeli architect who had just risen to 52 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,040 international fame named Moshe Safdie. 53 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,440 And at the time I was a young student, I wasn't so familiar 54 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,520 with his work, but when I read about him and I realized he has 55 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,080 a he has an office in Boston where my sister lived. 56 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,680 And he had an office in Toronto where my family was originally 57 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,040 from. And he had an office in 58 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,440 Jerusalem. I thought, well, I came up with 59 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,200 this great pipe dream where I would start work, I would try 60 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,160 and get a job with him in America and then I would, when I 61 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,240 was ready to make aliyah, I would transfer to the Jerusalem 62 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,760 offices the type of the type of plan that only somebody very 63 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,360 young and naive come up with. The next morning I walked into 64 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,320 the office of the Dean of my program and I said, I want you 65 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,600 to help me get an internship this summer with Sakti. 66 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,080 So after he laughed at me, he said, well, we have this program 67 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,120 where during spring break, instead of going to the beach or 68 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,240 whatever people do, we set we set up our students for a week 69 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:46,800 long internship in different offices. 70 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,120 And in the past we put people in Safi's office. 71 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,760 We could try and get you in there and if they like you, 72 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:52,080 maybe they'll hire you back for the summer. 73 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,200 And that's pretty much what happened. 74 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:55,680 They got me in. I worked there for a week. 75 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,400 I ended up getting hired there during the summer after the next 76 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,680 year I graduated from college, they hired me back again for 77 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,280 another summer, I think because I was their. 78 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,600 They were their shortstop on their softball team. 79 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,800 And and then at the end of the summer, I, I asked if I could, 80 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,120 if I could transfer to the Jerusalem office. 81 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,960 It wasn't the simplest process, but it ended up working out and 82 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:15,400 I made out. Yeah. 83 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,880 And I moved to, I moved to Jerusalem. 84 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,280 Now just just for reference, the, the Safti's office at the 85 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,080 time that I joined it had was just completing two major 86 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,360 projects in Israel. They were completing the Yad 87 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,720 Vashem Museum and they were completing the the new terminal. 88 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,160 What was that the new terminal in in Ben Gurion Airport? 89 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,040 So it's a major office with a lot of a great place to start a 90 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,320 career. I worked there for five years, 91 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,800 but because of the differences between architectural education 92 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,600 in the United States and in Israel, I had to like go back to 93 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,320 school and complete a degree in Israel, which I did at Batalo 94 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,640 School of Design in Jerusalem. And afterwards I was hired at a 95 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,960 firm called Pellet Kimmelman, where I still work and we do 96 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,680 mostly pub what in Israel is called public buildings. 97 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,160 So hospitals and schools, train stations. 98 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,920 I'm working on right now some Israeli consulates, some city 99 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,520 planning. So that's sort of my background 100 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,720 in architecture education and, and work wise. 101 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:26,000 In answer to the second part of the question about, about how I 102 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,400 came to, to write this book when I was in Michigan and certainly 103 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,000 when I was in Patel, I was always really interested when 104 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,760 topics that we discussed in lectures had parallel 105 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,000 discussions in the Talmud, which I, I know it doesn't sound 106 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000 intuitive, but it's amazing how, how, how these things tend to 107 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,240 come up, especially if you, if you're looking at the world in a 108 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,840 specific way. When I was in high school, I'd 109 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:51,880 begun studying Daphiomi and by that point I was looking to do 110 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,920 something that was a little bit more in depth beyond and I 111 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,240 thought it would be interesting to write about architecture in 112 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,960 rabbinic literature. So and I from the start, I 113 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,560 thought about it as as sort of like doing it parsha by parsha 114 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,400 by each weekly Torah portion. And so as a test, I went through 115 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,760 Bray sheet, which seemed to me to be a very UN architectural, 116 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,760 you know, book. And I made a list of all the 117 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,040 architectural topics that that I came across. 118 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:20,080 And this showed me that it was like it, it was possible that I 119 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,000 could do it. And so then I set to work doing 120 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,440 research on the various topics that I had identified. 121 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,920 And at the same time, I started indexing architectural topics, 122 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,560 going through Mishnah Tosefta, both Talmud's Midrash Halacha 123 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,800 and much of Madrash Agada and the Mishnah Torah. 124 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,400 Just I have a couple of binders that are just full with each 125 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,440 page devoted to a different topic and, you know, keeping 126 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,160 track of sources. While at the same time, whenever 127 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,400 I came, it was reading an architecture book that had 128 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,760 nothing to do with Judaism. I would also cross reference it 129 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,480 in, in, in the same binder. And then there was a process 130 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,160 where I sort of connected each topic with the specific partial 131 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,240 that I thought was appropriate for it. 132 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,600 And that's really how I built the framework for the, for the 133 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,960 book. Now it's not, I'm not, there 134 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,480 have been attempts before, 1 notable attempt by by a scholar 135 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:18,600 named Samuel Krauss who did this in Vienna 150 years ago, going 136 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,880 through and writing, cataloguing. 137 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,480 A lot of the topics of that had to do with architecture that 138 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,640 were in rabbinic literature. But it was sort of a, a very 139 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,160 different time and certainly not intended to be a partial book. 140 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,640 But that that's basically how I how I conceived the book and how 141 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,760 I set about writing it. Well, first of all, that's I 142 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,080 think what the coolest thing is that you as an individual have 143 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,560 like a lasting impression on the landscape of Israel, which is 144 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,600 pretty cool. That's a that's a big zahoot, 145 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,560 you know, like, it's amazing. Definitely one of the one of the 146 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,840 perks of being an architect here where you talk about like old 147 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,320 school Zionism where you go and build the land and most people 148 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,360 do that in their own way. But here you sort of literally 149 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,760 say that there are parts of it that you've had your hands in. 150 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,600 It's it's a great feeling. Amazing, amazing. 151 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,440 That is that's that's fascinating. 152 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:16,720 OK, so your book organizes essays into 4 categories, each 153 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,400 demonstrating how knowledge of architecture can deepen one's 154 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,840 understanding of the Torah. Can you elaborate on these 155 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,440 categories and what you hope the book will contribute and inspire 156 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,040 to the readers? Sure. 157 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,240 OK, Well, people are I guess are often surprised that there's 158 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,440 enough material, architectural material in the Torah to fill 159 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,840 A600 page book. If you ask most people and I've 160 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,200 had this conversation with people, they say well after 161 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,040 after Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel and the Tabernacle, 162 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,800 what else is there? And I think that's mostly 163 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,760 because people don't appreciate the full purview of of an 164 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,480 architect and what a vast array of topics go into architectural 165 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,120 design. And in addition, we basically 166 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,200 live our lives surrounded by architecture and men. 167 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,880 So obviously many of the stories that happened in the Torah are 168 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,800 in a built setting. And so therefore they have a 169 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,280 backdrop of architecture. And there are stories that 170 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,000 hinge, excuse the pun, on doors or windows or on the setup of a 171 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,920 kitchen or on food storage if you're talking about Yosef or on 172 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,760 jails and Thrones, access roads, building materials. 173 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,920 I mean, the list is, is almost endless in terms of in terms of 174 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,160 the stories. And so if you are looking at 175 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,640 those specific topics, it really opens it, you realize that 176 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,960 architecture really plays an important role in many parts of 177 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,440 the Torah. So to make this point, I wrote 178 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,160 in the introduction to my book that the topic, the topics can 179 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,200 be divided into 4 different categories. 180 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,240 So you have like the, the, the, the main, the basic idea of just 181 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,800 architecture described in the Torah, which is I think what, 182 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,160 like I said, most people would have in mind when you mention 183 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,800 the topic. But then there's also Jewish law 184 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,920 that involves architecture. So railings guard railings to 185 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,280 keep people safe for privacy and windows. 186 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,720 There's also more obscure topics that have to do with 187 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,640 architectural theory that you can connect to the text, like 188 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,480 building topology or ornamentation or architectural 189 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,240 preservation. These are all topics that can 190 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,080 get into it. And it's interesting because the 191 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,440 Bible is such an influential foundation of Western 192 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,160 civilization. You actually find a lot of 193 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:37,560 architectural theorists writing and quoting text verses from the 194 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:38,800 Bible as part of their arguments. 195 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,360 It's, it's, it's an, it, it comes up not, not rarely. 196 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:45,960 And that certainly always fun when that happens. 197 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,520 And then the 4th category I would say has to do with the 198 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,560 archaeological discoveries that relate to both the the 199 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,120 architecture and the verses in the Torah, what scholars might 200 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,560 call Realia, and understanding certain architectural features 201 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,480 that help you appreciate what text what what's going on in the 202 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,000 text and how they existed at the time. 203 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,920 I would say most people have no reason to consider the passages 204 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,960 in the Torah from an architectural point of view. 205 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,360 But so doing so opens up like a whole new way of thinking about 206 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,240 about the verses that you would otherwise not come across. 207 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,840 And I felt that doing so could lead both to interesting 208 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,960 insights in the Torah, and it can also have a secondary 209 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,920 benefit of teaching people a little bit about architecture 210 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,520 along the way. I, my, my feeling is that my 211 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,920 personal opinion is that our, of Odaf Hashem, our service of, of 212 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,040 God is enhanced by our involvement in the world. 213 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,360 And so any expertise that we might gain in our professional 214 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,480 life or otherwise, we can use that as a tool to help 215 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,640 understand the Torah. And this book was me putting 216 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,320 that into practice, you know, showing how the knowledge that I 217 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,440 have in architecture can be brought to bear on the Torah in 218 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,200 a fruitful way. Amazing. 219 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,800 Yeah, that's really what it is. It's a very important. 220 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,080 Point instruction for life. That's what it is. 221 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:05,640 It's to enhance everything we do. 222 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,920 So I, I, we, we love that. That's that's exactly what I 223 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:14,120 want to have you on exactly in in your chapter, Shamot 32, you 224 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,040 discuss the burning Bush. How does your architectural 225 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,480 perspective shed new light on this iconic moment in the Torah? 226 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,840 OK, well, as an example of one of the subjects that might not 227 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,520 immediately come to mind as an architectural topic, I, I can 228 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,760 tell you that an important part of any building design that we 229 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,720 do nowadays, it is involves the safety plan of the building and 230 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,680 making sure, especially fire safety and making sure that in 231 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,320 case of a fire, there's time for the people who are in the 232 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,840 building to escape. If a building catches fire, we 233 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,640 want to make sure that the fire will be contained in one part of 234 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,280 the building and especially that it'll leave free the, the escape 235 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,280 routes, which, you know, hallways and, and staircases, so 236 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,320 that people will have enough time to flee. 237 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,960 And so you figure out how, how many people are in the building, 238 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,960 how much time it takes to evacuate them all. 239 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,880 And, and then you have to make sure that the materials that 240 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,560 surround those areas can hold up for that long. 241 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,320 So we don't talk about materials as being fireproof. 242 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,280 We talk about them as being fire rated, which means that you, 243 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,000 you, the safety engineer will, for example, say this door needs 244 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,240 to be able to stand up for 90 minutes before the fire will be 245 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,520 able to eat its way through the, the, the, the leaf of the door 246 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,720 and spread into the stairwell. This, by the way, for people who 247 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,320 live in apartment buildings and see that people prop open the 248 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,080 big heavy doors that are in the stairwell. 249 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,600 Well, you're, you're negating the whole purpose of being able 250 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,040 to make sure that that that that is a contained unit where the 251 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,280 fire won't spread and people won't be, will be able to escape 252 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,800 through the stairwell. You want to keep it as a 253 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,760 separate fire area so that in the case of a fire, people will 254 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:52,640 be able to use it to escape. So we talked about fire rating 255 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,440 in terms of making sure that there's enough time for people 256 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,360 to get out of the building. When we talk about the burning 257 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,440 Bush, we often think of it as a miraculous fireproof Bush that 258 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,200 Moshe went in that was somehow on fire but not being eaten at 259 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,000 all. And some commentators, Sporno 260 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:17,240 and Fiskuni, and it also appears in in Exodus. 261 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,240 Raba treats this as a, a metaphor for Benezrel in in 262 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:30,480 Egypt, where it was sort of to encourage or to assuage Moshe 263 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,200 that that Benezrell was was was going to be OK and trying that 264 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,640 no matter what happened to them, they would be they would not be 265 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,240 completely consumed. But I think that an equally 266 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,760 valid reading of of this has Moshe looking at this Bush, 267 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,120 which is some desert ramble, and seeing that it's not being 268 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:53,040 burned the way that you would expect dry Bush in the desert to 269 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,080 sort of go up in flames almost instantaneously. 270 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:00,040 It was taking longer to combust. In other words, that it's it's 271 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,520 it, it took longer to burn than you would expect. 272 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,200 It wasn't not burning at all. It was just, it was just going 273 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,680 up a lot slower than it than than could be reasonably 274 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,720 expected. And if that's true, then the 275 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,120 symbolism of the burning Bush is entirely different. 276 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,640 It's not that bin Israel is indestructible and that 277 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,680 nothing's going to happen to them in Egypt, but rather 278 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,440 there's a limited amount of time that the Bush is going to hold 279 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,480 up. You need to, you know, like like 280 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,920 a fire escape, you need to make your escape now. 281 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,280 And it's this makes it more into a call of action to Moshe. 282 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,400 We know Moshe was a little bit hesitant about about how he 283 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,040 should be involved in this. And Hashem was saying, no, 284 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,200 there's not time. It's burning. 285 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,560 It's I make, I'm holding it off. It's holding off as long as we 286 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,760 can. But you don't have the luxury of 287 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,400 turning down the this mission. You have to act now or have the 288 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,680 risk having Benazir be consumed by the fire. 289 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,960 The the beauty of this also is that it works into the 290 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,840 conversation that shaman Moshe have. 291 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,440 Right, right. Yeah. 292 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,880 So so Moshe is being timid and being, you know, like I don't 293 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,400 want to do it. And like, and, and the burning 294 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,880 Bush is, is has it's playing into on the ground what is 295 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,680 actually being discussed in during Moshe's prophecy. 296 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,040 So that's a, it's a very interesting perspective. 297 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,200 It's something to think about. And that the purpose of these 298 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,880 next few questions that we're going to have is to bring, bring 299 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,840 different examples from your book so people can see what kind 300 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,760 of insights are able to be gleaned. 301 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:28,160 So that was a very interesting that that really popped off when 302 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,640 I saw that. That's a very sensitive point as 303 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,320 well. OK, so your chapter on Schmut 304 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,160 Periche focuses on brick making in Egypt. 305 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,000 Can you elaborate on how architecture and engineering and 306 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,320 engineering knowledge inform our understanding of the Israelites 307 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,840 labor? Well, this is a great example of 308 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,840 how understanding Realia in the Torah in the Torah could be 309 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,200 helpful to to to your general understanding of the verses. 310 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,480 The essay in my book I should Just as a little background, the 311 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,079 essays in my book are almost all 2 to 3 pages long. 312 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:07,720 Some of them get to four to five pages. 313 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,760 There might be a handful that are a little bit longer, a 314 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,960 handful of the 178 S CS, but I I mostly try and keep them short 315 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,160 and and clear. I wanted the essays to be 316 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,960 interesting to lay people who have no background in 317 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,920 architecture, but to make sure they include enough sources so 318 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,440 that scholars could use the information if they're 319 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,440 interested. I wanted people who are not well 320 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,720 versed in rabbinic literature to be able to use the book as a 321 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,840 resource also. So if somebody you know, not 322 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,280 people who are writing about architecture don't necessarily 323 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,880 know, know the mission of backwards and forwards. 324 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,320 So if somebody's studying it, I don't know any topic column 325 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,440 design and antiquity. They can find a chapter on the 326 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:49,640 subject and and from there get references that are in rabbinic 327 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,560 literature. Anyways, back to the question. 328 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,440 There's certainly a lot of scholarly material on brick 329 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,400 making in ancient Egypt, but I try not to get lost in the 330 00:17:58,400 --> 00:17:59,840 weeds. Rather, I wanted to make the 331 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,280 point that the mud bricks that they were using require binding 332 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:09,360 material, which is to say straw, and in order to make sure that 333 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:11,680 the bricks don't develop crack. Now the way they would make you 334 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,360 can make bricks without straw and the process of making them 335 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,160 is you, you, you, you, you take the, you take the mud, you put 336 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:24,680 it into a mold and then you bake it and it, it the bricks in, in 337 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,520 in ancient manuals where they talk about how you make mud 338 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,440 bricks. The bricks aren't supposed to be 339 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,840 used for years after they're made so that so that they're 340 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,400 certainly that they're properly dry and have the right amount of 341 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,960 strength. And so if you make bricks, 342 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,040 bricks without straw, nobody. And then months or years later 343 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,640 somebody goes to use them and they crack, well, at that point, 344 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,320 go figure out which slave didn't put straw into their mud, right? 345 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:58,360 And I imagine that this would be the obvious obstinate response 346 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:02,080 from the slaves. If Pyro comes to them and says, 347 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,040 I'm not giving you straw anymore, you know, make them 348 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,200 without make, get the straw yourself, they'll say, OK, 349 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,080 you're not going to give us straw. 350 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:08,720 We'll make the bricks without straw. 351 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,000 And then, you know, and who's going to be the wiser. 352 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,240 And that's the reason, I think that Pyro insists that the 353 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,480 slaves continue to use the same what the word he uses as maconet 354 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,960 of bricks, which commentators usually interpret that as as 355 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,200 meaning the same number of bricks that they had put out. 356 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:30,360 There's beautiful midrashim in the about how they determined 357 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:32,960 how many bricks the nasal were capable of making. 358 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,320 But I think that in in the way that the word makon in modern 359 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,240 Hebrew means recipe that it it, it could very well mean that 360 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,200 power was insisting that they continue to use the same recipe, 361 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,680 the same ingredients in making the bricks. 362 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,320 Meaning like, I'm not giving you the straw, but you still have to 363 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,880 continue to use straw in making the bricks. 364 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,240 You can't just like, you know, throw up your hands and say, OK, 365 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,760 we'll just make them with mud and then they won't be very 366 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,480 useful to you. It's also interesting to note 367 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,680 that in these manuals that talk about making straw. 368 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,960 Brick making was identified as a springtime activity. 369 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,120 You couldn't make, you didn't want to make bricks in the 370 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:17,000 winter or all year round. It was specifically done in the 371 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,720 spring so that they would the conditions would be right for 372 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,000 them to dry and and get the strength that that that was 373 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,000 necessary. We, when we read the stories 374 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,760 about Benaszrel making bricks and Mitzrayim, we sort of assume 375 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,200 that this is their main activity that they were doing as slaves. 376 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,520 But the truth is, is that it was probably a seasonal task and it 377 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,400 was one of, if you think about their activities building these 378 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,880 these cities, it was probably just one of the many tasks that 379 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,560 they had to do in, in Egypt. And in the springtime they might 380 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,640 be doing baking bricks and at other times they might be 381 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,920 preparing other materials that were necessary for building 382 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,720 pitomidramsis. But it might specifically be 383 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,120 chosen as a springtime activity because the whole story of 384 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,240 Mitrim is about is, is, is focused on springtime. 385 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,160 And Rabbi Akiva and the Gemara talks about how the redemption 386 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,240 and Mitrim took 12 months. So if you, if, if this is the 387 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,640 start of the, of the redemption, then this is, it's starting in 388 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,320 spring. And by the time a year passes 389 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800 and they come back around, that's when Vinay's soil is 390 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,240 freed from each time. So understanding the insurance 391 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,400 and outs of of brick making really brings a a level, an 392 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,400 added level of understanding to what's going on in these 393 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,760 stories. Really interesting. 394 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:36,120 So regarding Shimot 10, you analyze wind patterns related to 395 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:38,600 the to the splitting of the sea. This is really interesting. 396 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:39,640 Yeah, this one is really. Interesting. 397 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,840 So how does this approach combine architectural knowledge 398 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,880 and Torah study? You're doing a great job at 399 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,520 picking topics that that, you know, illustrate my earlier 400 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,680 point about the breadth of architectural topics and how you 401 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,760 know so many different details go into good architectural 402 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:55,840 design. So wind. 403 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:02,640 OK, ten years ago, my wife and I took a trip to Athens, and it's 404 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,040 a great city to explore for somebody with my interests in 405 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,960 ancient architecture. Among the many famous ancient 406 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,480 buildings that are still standing there is this small 407 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,960 octagonal structure called the Tower of the Winds. 408 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,480 And the reason it's called that is because on each of the eight 409 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,040 sides of the building, it's decorated with a different 410 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,560 depiction of a different wind. Now, in in the ancient world, 411 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,880 they talked about winds. They gave each each of them, 412 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,200 they gave winds a name. And it one of the reasons why 413 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,120 this building is cool is because it's actually described by the 414 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,240 Roman architectural writer Vitruvius. 415 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,840 And it's which in his own in in his manual, which is the only 416 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,800 surviving architectural manual from antiquity. 417 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,280 And he talks about this building. 418 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:46,960 And you could actually still go and see it today. 419 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,000 Anyways, the ancients and the people today also have specific 420 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,640 names for various winds that are prevalent from a specific 421 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,200 direction. Homer talked about four 422 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,480 different winds and Aristotle talked about 8 different winds 423 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,040 and some mentioned up to 24 depending on east by northeast 424 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,520 and how how how finely you want to divide it. 425 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,880 And the Rabbis and the Talmud also talk about different types 426 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,120 of winds. They talk and and their 427 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,640 characteristics. They talk about the harsh, the 428 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,920 beneficial north wind or the harsh S wind and what what what 429 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,120 those each wind does to or harbinges. 430 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,360 So it's important to recognize that there is a typical wind 431 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,000 pattern. If you live in a specific place, 432 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,640 there are there are directions that the winds tend to blow from 433 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,240 and often those are are recognized. 434 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,560 I know, for example, I live in Jerusalem and the wind in my 435 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,400 neighborhood always comes from the West. 436 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,560 And you could tell this because the western windows are the ones 437 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,680 that get filthiest during the winter, So you have to wash them 438 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,880 more often. But it's very helpful in in 439 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,320 terms of architecture, because if you, you could take advantage 440 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,600 of this to, to passively cool your building. 441 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,000 If you design the the way that you let wind in or the how the 442 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,560 building is oriented, then you could get a good breeze during 443 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,000 the right times of the year to cool off your building without 444 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,400 using air. Air conditioning, which is what 445 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,760 people did for thousands of years until air conditioning was 446 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,640 invented. And then sort of they kind of 447 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,200 forgot that there was this much more economical and 448 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,800 environmentally friendly way of cooling off your buildings 449 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,760 within to a certain degree. And you could, you know, you 450 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,440 could you, you use different techniques so that you block the 451 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,280 wind during the during the cold months and you make use of the 452 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,440 wind during the hot months. Anyways, different. 453 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,000 So, so you would know the different winds that existed in 454 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,000 in your area and give names to them. 455 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,240 So for example, there's a, there's a wind that's called the 456 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,240 Boreas wind. And interestingly, in some 457 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,880 places it's considered a northern wind, but Vitruvius 458 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,280 talks about it more as an Easter wind. 459 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,400 And that I think has to do with just the, the, the, the, the 460 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,800 specifics of where you live. In certain areas, you know, the 461 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,000 wind might come from one place and in another it might come 462 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,560 from another. So in the Torah, both in the 463 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,720 splitting of the sea and in the plague of locusts, it mentions 464 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,840 this a wind which it identifies as the Kadim wind, which most 465 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,560 comment most most commentators talk about as an eastern wind. 466 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,440 There's one scholar in Israel, Yitzhak's Maidalists, notes that 467 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,400 in Israel, the Kadim wind was coming from the east, which was 468 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:25,800 where the sun rose. So it was like the most 469 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,800 prominent direction. But Egypt, in Egypt, they use 470 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,240 the term to Orient according to their touchstone, which was the 471 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,360 Nile, which runs NS. So for them, Kadim came from the 472 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:37,000 Kadim wind was coming from the South. 473 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,160 And this makes sense in terms of in the context of the locust 474 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,040 plague where it says that they were they came with the Kadim 475 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,720 wind and and he'd squirno points out that the locusts actually 476 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,000 arrived from South of Egypt, from Sudan and not from the 477 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,920 east. Now what's interesting is that 478 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,160 the Torah doesn't specify whether the winds that split the 479 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,000 sea and the wind that brings the locust is something that's 480 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,840 normal or something that that's extraordinary. 481 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,960 And commentators take it in each direction. 482 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,640 Some say, no, this is clearly miraculous and it's showing how 483 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,040 Hashem is controlling nature. And others say no, Hashem is 484 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,880 working within nature, within the natural patterns of 485 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,920 meteorology in order to, to bring the plagues. 486 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,320 I would argue that the fact that the the the the Torah reference 487 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,920 is a a regular named wind, which I assume people knew about and 488 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,920 was was a was a a wind that people expected implies that 489 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,800 this was actually a regular force that was at work. 490 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:43,280 The, the, the yeah. So the, the title of the work 491 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,400 Kadeem is it's a known title. It's a title that it's expecting 492 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,080 you to already know what it's the it's reference. 493 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,680 And so, yeah, that that is. Right. 494 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,160 Like so in Israel we talked about like Kamsin or we, we 495 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,880 talked about different weathering patterns that 496 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,960 happened in specific times during the year where you expect 497 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,600 wind or sand or whatever to be blown in from a certain 498 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,200 direction. And, and I think you know that 499 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,560 that that's definitely what Kadeem wind was, was, was was a 500 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,320 similar type of a weather pattern that people expected. 501 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,920 Just out of curiosity, so you mentioned the locusts. 502 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,160 I'm sure they're still locusts, you know, or forming, you know, 503 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,520 during certain seasons have has this has this theory from the 504 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,560 South been kind of proven that we can actually watch the 505 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,880 patterns of locust during certain seasons and see like, 506 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:29,840 oh, makes sense. It's coming from there. 507 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,840 Is that something that? My my understanding is that it's 508 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:38,280 it's a known phenomenon. I'm not that knowledgeable about 509 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,560 it, but from what I, from what I understand from these papers 510 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,360 that I've read that yes, this, this is something that that is 511 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,680 tracked and it's a known thing that, that when the, the locusts 512 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,400 that come to mitzvah, they come to Egypt even today arrived from 513 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,200 the South, from, from the direction of Sudan. 514 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,880 Very interesting. Right, So that's the idea here 515 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:03,720 is, is that Hashem works within nature using familiar natural 516 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:09,320 phenomenon to his own, to his own manipulation and his own. 517 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,320 Right. And then, of course, you get to 518 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,160 the point where, OK, that's it's fine that that that God works 519 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,240 with the nature, but the fact that he's that it happens just 520 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,960 at the exact time that you know, for example, that Beniso get to 521 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,720 the sea. Well, that, that's pretty. 522 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,440 The timing more so than the mechanism. 523 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:26,920 Yes, exactly. Gotcha. 524 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,280 OK, we haven't. So in Shimote 20 you explore the 525 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,640 connection between idols and architecture. 526 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,640 Can you discuss how this sheds light on the prohibition against 527 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,720 graven images? Sure. 528 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,640 This is actually a topic that comes directly from a class that 529 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,240 I took in art history, which is closely connected to 530 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,480 architecture. And it also connects to an 531 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,960 interesting paper that was written by another professor of 532 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,760 mine at at University of Michigan, Yoronelia. 533 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,000 And he wrote about how Jews in antiquity lived in a very richly 534 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,080 sculpted environment surrounded by idols. 535 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,160 Meaning if you walk down a classical city, then you would 536 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,680 you would be passing carvings and all sorts of elements that 537 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,080 that could be could be seen as problematic. 538 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,200 So this most famously comes up in the in in the mission of that 539 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,040 with regard to Rabbi Gamliel in the bath House of Aphrodite, 540 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,320 which is a a famous and and very discussed topic when it comes to 541 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,800 discussing of what does around the and and the built 542 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,480 environment that the that that the the Jews lived in in in the 543 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,120 time of the Mishnah. But idols were everywhere. 544 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,120 So questions come up in the Misha, can you drink from a or 545 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,440 in the Tosethic, can you drink from a fountain that was carved 546 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,760 to look like a face? Does it look like you're 547 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,000 worshipping it by by by bending over and essentially kissing his 548 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,440 mouth? Are you are all idols forbidden? 549 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,120 Or is it just ones that are holding symbolic objects you 550 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,120 know and and that that demonstrate that they're 551 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,520 supposed to be worshipped? Can an architect design a 552 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,280 building that's intended for idol worship or that there's 553 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,160 going to be idol worship taking place in it? 554 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,960 The initial inclination with idols, I think, is to think of 555 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,200 freestanding, you know, fully 3D sculptures, statues of of, of 556 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,080 gods or people and perhaps like the statue of Aphrodite in this 557 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,040 bath house. But these were really only a a 558 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,120 small part of the sculpted environment. 559 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,320 You might find, you know, in the building, you might find a niche 560 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,560 that had a a free standing sculpture in it. 561 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,000 But more often you'd see freezes and pediments and arches and all 562 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,480 manners of other architectural features that were carved with 563 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,400 figures in relief. What relief means is that it's, 564 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,000 it's, it's attached to the wall and it's sort of coming out at 565 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,800 you. And, and that was much more 566 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,720 common that when we talk about people being surrounded by 567 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,000 idols. And, and that's really what, 568 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,320 what majority of the carvings were like. 569 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,680 So art historians classify these as high relief, which means that 570 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,440 they're, let's say 75%, they're only attached to the wall by a 571 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,120 little bit or low relief where they're a little bit coming out 572 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,600 of the wall. But basically, they're mostly 573 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,080 surrounded on on three sides by they're mostly attached to the 574 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,560 wall. And Irish law tends to be more 575 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,280 lenient with sculptures that were carved in relief, except if 576 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,360 you're talking about faces and astronomical bodies. 577 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,960 So I suggest that this reflects how each type of sculpture was 578 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,800 used. Freestanding idols might be more 579 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,800 of a focal point and therefore were more problematic. 580 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,520 Whereas sculptures in relief that were part of the of the the 581 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,680 side of a building were used more to decorate and to tell 582 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,920 stories and rather than to serve as objects of worship. 583 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,680 And the rabbis, in any case, had to navigate how they could go 584 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,480 about living in a world that, you know, on could be seen as 585 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,040 very problematic walking through this this environment that had 586 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,120 so many carvings. And at the same time, this was 587 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,200 the world that they lived in. And they, you know, were able to 588 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,000 to to go about their business without it, without seeing it as 589 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,040 too problematic. Very interesting. 590 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:19,960 Yes, so, so the distinguishing between the different types of 591 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,920 the distinguishing within different types of sculptures or 592 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,880 or those distinguishments allowed for certain leniencies, 593 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,960 which would make sense being that these things were all 594 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:37,160 around and you had to be able to give a realistic, a realistic 595 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,240 way. Forward for. 596 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,120 The people in in the inhabited towns. 597 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,080 Yeah. I mean, I think that's true. 598 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,480 I also think it's fair to ask to what extent were these objects 599 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,480 really intended to be used as, as objects of worship that, you 600 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,200 know, if, if I can't, I can't necessarily answer that question 601 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,680 because I don't, I didn't live in that time. 602 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,400 But for the people who are living in, you know, 3rd century 603 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,520 Sipori, were 4th century Sipori, Were they? 604 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,200 Were they really looking around at, like, they're carved 605 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,400 environments and thinking of it as as idols? 606 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,400 Or were they thinking it more like, say, if you were to go to 607 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,360 like, a baseball stadium and see statues of, like, you know, 608 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,760 Willie Mays outside? Gotcha. 609 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:26,760 OK, so in Devarim Perikvov you explore the inheritance of 610 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,120 Canaanite cities. How does an understanding of 611 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,080 ancient urban planning enrich our appreciation of this 612 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:39,400 narrative? OK, we, we architects would like 613 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,200 to believe that our designs can influence the way that people 614 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,800 live their lives in our building. 615 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,680 Meaning if a building is designed well, it could 616 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,440 reinforce your way of living. It could make it could it could 617 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,600 it could alter how, how, how, how you live your daily life and 618 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,800 be very influential. There, they'll say that. 619 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,400 By the way. Isn't that three things that has 620 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:12,000 all say Dirana ah? Yep, Yep. 621 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:20,080 I mean, so there was a movement in, in in the 80s and early 90s 622 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,360 where they talked a lot in America, where they talked a lot 623 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,880 about the way that suburbs in, in America are designed. 624 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,440 And how if you, if you go to, if you drive through your typical 625 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,080 American suburb, you'll think and you look at the houses, 626 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,440 you'll say, ah, a car lives here because front and center is the 627 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,760 garage. You drive into your garage. 628 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,159 And in this in this movement, they said we need to get away 629 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:48,159 from designing buildings that are car centric and try and come 630 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:50,880 up with communities, design communities where it gives 631 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,800 people the opportunity to to make connections with their 632 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,440 neighbors, to sit on their porches, to be friendly with 633 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,040 each other and not just get in your car, drive to work, get in 634 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,720 your car, drive back, drive to the store where where they're 635 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,280 there are not these these person opportunities for personal 636 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,480 connection. Building Building a courtyard. 637 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,360 Like a circular courtyard for people. 638 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,720 For example, it's called new Urbanism anyway, so that's just 639 00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:14,960 like one small example of how you might say that the the way 640 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,920 that your your house or your city is designed might affect 641 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,000 your your, your quality of life and really just even the way 642 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,480 that you behave and even you're medot. 643 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,360 There are a number of times in the Torah where beneath the El 644 00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:34,440 are warned that they're going to be going into Canaan, they're 645 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,480 going to be taking over cities that were built that they didn't 646 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:45,040 build houses and cisterns that are pre-existing and and warning 647 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,880 them. So why is there a threat? 648 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,680 What is problematic about it? Some commentators talk about 649 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:56,000 hubris and obtaining wealth without any effort. 650 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,640 Lafdale, the past football coach of Michigan, Jim Harbaugh, had a 651 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,320 great quote that he said to his counterpart in Ohio State, Ryan 652 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,520 Day. He said some people are are are 653 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,840 are standing on third base and they think that they had a 654 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,840 triple, but they didn't. Meaning like he had inherited 655 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,160 the program from his predecessor. 656 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,200 So similarly, Vinay's, you know, Vinay's what we're going to be 657 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,080 acquiring all of this, all of all, of all of these houses. 658 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,360 And perhaps that was the problem, that they were going to 659 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,800 think that it was from something that they had done when really 660 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,680 it was it was just being gifted to them in a sense. 661 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,320 But I think that in in an additional danger here is that 662 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,840 they were taking over towns that were built as part of a foreign 663 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,600 Pagan culture. And living in this built 664 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,800 environment can have a corrupting influence. 665 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,000 The Gemara in Shkaling, for example, talks about, it tells a 666 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,960 story about there was a time where there's a conflict in a 667 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,800 certain synagogue and a Torah was torn. 668 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,200 And somebody says that the reason why there's this conflict 669 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,880 is because this, this used to be a, a House of a Pagan temple, 670 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,280 used to be a beta Voda Azara, meaning that like the, the, the, 671 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,000 the, the fact that you've taken over this area somehow corrupts 672 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,760 the people who are, who are, who are there. 673 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,720 We have examples of using architecture to influence a 674 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,880 culture. So for example, the Romans did 675 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,880 this with their colonies. I think the Greeks did this with 676 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,560 their colonies as well with Alexandria and, and and building 677 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,280 cities that showed off their culture to the to the natives 678 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,160 and and got them to adopt a Roman way of life. 679 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,360 So Tacitus talks about subverting the Britons into 680 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,320 adopting Roman culture and he writes, here's a quote. 681 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,240 He says little by little, the Britons were seduced into 682 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:47,920 alluring vices, the lounge, the bath, the well appointed dinner 683 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,520 table and the simple natives gave the name of culture to this 684 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,720 fact of their slavery, meaning they were, they didn't even 685 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,640 realize it, but they were because the the Romans were 686 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,680 building cities in a certain way, it could not help but 687 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,480 influence the the the the existing culture. 688 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,960 And I think this was a danger for the Israelites when they 689 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,040 were entering Canaan. And it could equally be a danger 690 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,320 to Jews in the diaspora. If you think about the way that 691 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,640 synagogues evolved in some, in some, in some, in some cultures, 692 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,280 in some parts of the diaspora, thinking about these verses from 693 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,040 these perspective, I think opens up this this different 694 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,280 interpretation of, of of what could be the problem and why? 695 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,200 Why Beneath Shell needed to be warned that it wasn't going to 696 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,760 be so simple just coming in and taking over this built 697 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,880 environment, this existing fabric of of cities that that 698 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,080 might not be as benign as they thought. 699 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,160 This is such a fascinating topic. 700 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,720 Just I never even considered this, but it makes so much sense 701 00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:59,200 that the way you know, the, the city is built can influence how 702 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,440 people behave. It's, it's a, it's mind blowing, 703 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,840 actually. I'm still digesting it. 704 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,920 Very, very interesting. I, this is like one of the 705 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,720 chapters, I think that will get people excited to read the book, 706 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:12,600 hopefully. So thank you for that. 707 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:18,000 And for our last question, in your section in Devarim 33, you 708 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,760 discussed the interplay between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. 709 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,640 You also wrote What About These Cities earlier in the book. 710 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,480 Can you discuss the architectural and spiritual 711 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:32,400 insights these essays provide? I think one of the first DeVry 712 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,120 tour I ever gave as a kid that I ever wrote on my own years and 713 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,720 years ago was about the relationship between Yisahar and 714 00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:43,720 Zvulun, the well known interpretation of Rashi about 715 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:49,480 them splitting their learning and work and and the arrangement 716 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,440 that they have. But when you look at the the my 717 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,840 fortune, you see that that the Rashi's interpretation is is 718 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,960 really an outlier. Most other commentators don't 719 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,480 take it in that direction. The Sifri explains it entirely 720 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,640 differently, saying that this really highlights this that that 721 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,280 that Isahar and Zulun highlights the role of commerce in bringing 722 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,480 other nations closer to Hashem. If you. 723 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,880 Want to be influential in the world, and I think that that's 724 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,240 part of our job as Jews, to try and influence the world for the 725 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:28,640 better. Then you need to interface with 726 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,800 the world in some way. You need to connect with other 727 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,680 nations. And so it was important in the 728 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:41,040 time of the of the Torah and to have ports for trade, to bring 729 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,960 people into the land of Israel. And the Sifri explains that 730 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,240 people would come to the ports for business reasons and then 731 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,160 while they were there, they would explore the monotheistic 732 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,320 culture of been a Israel and they would travel to Jerusalem 733 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,280 to tour the city. And this would have a very 734 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,760 beneficial influence on them. And some of them would come to 735 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,720 convert and others of them would be exposed to monotheism. 736 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,520 And this was this it says he, they explained, the Sifri 737 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,640 explains is is is is what the dynamic of Issachar and Zwouen 738 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,640 is about, is about having people coming, bringing people, 739 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,600 inviting people into your culture and then having them 740 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,560 come see what's going on in in your not just in your business 741 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,400 world, but in your spiritual world. 742 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,200 And I think this explanation makes a lot of sense. 743 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,400 It also fits very well with modern Israel because you have 744 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,440 people who come for the high tech, for the culture in Tel 745 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,560 Aviv and other people who are coming for spiritual reasons, 746 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,000 who are drawn. And no matter the reason why, 747 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,680 why people are coming to, to Israel, if they come and they 748 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:49,200 visit Jerusalem and, and, and, and other spiritual areas of, 749 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,240 of, of the country, they are exposed to this, this level of 750 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,720 holiness, which is very important. 751 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,320 And it it, but it's not, it's it on its own. 752 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:58,680 It wouldn't be enough to bring people in. 753 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,920 You need to have the, the two things ideally, although they 754 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,400 are sometimes in conflict. And we have sections of the 755 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,440 Gabbar which talk about not, not Tel Aviv, but Kesari on how 756 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,960 those two cities, Kesari and Yushalayim were always in, in 757 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,040 conflict. But ideally they work hand in 758 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,080 hand. And both are important for our 759 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:21,680 for for our influence, our mission to influence the the 760 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:27,720 world At the same time, there's a very interesting way that the 761 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:30,640 Rabbi's of the Talmud refer to the verses that are describing 762 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,760 the blessings of Zvulun to be nourished by the abundance of 763 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,200 the Seas and the hidden treasures of the sand. 764 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,560 So the Talmud talks about glass production and how glass made in 765 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,720 this part of the world was highly desirable, which is 100% 766 00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:46,920 true. In in fact, ancient scholars 767 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,760 even suggest that glass was invented in like in Israel near 768 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,960 Akal, and that that's where the the idea of using sands to make 769 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,280 glass was discovered, was discovered. 770 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:06,040 It happens that the the sand that exists on the on on the 771 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,440 coast of Israel was specifically prized for glass making because 772 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,720 of its purity, because the amount of because of its 773 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:16,280 chemical content that it made exceptionally pure and and clear 774 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,760 glass. And in fact, the archaeologists 775 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,720 have found glass factories, ships that are sunk off the 776 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:28,240 coast of Israel that have, you know, large amounts of glass in 777 00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:30,760 them as part of part of the trading. 778 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:37,280 And so, so in the, in the, in the Gemara, where, when when 779 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,280 discussing these verses, the rabbi's say, well, what was the 780 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,480 treasure that was hidden in the, in the sand that it talks about 781 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,920 in the verse? And they say, well, obviously 782 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,680 this is the glass industry that existed in at the time. 783 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,400 And my sister-in-law used to work at the at the Metropolitan 784 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,600 Museum of Art in the Department of Conservation one time. 785 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,560 But she came to visit us. One of her colleagues sent her 786 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,840 to one of these rivers to gather sands was they could bring it 787 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,480 back and test it to see to see what they what, what the big 788 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,960 what the big, you know, excitement was about. 789 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,400 But it's not at all surprising to find the commentary in let's 790 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,400 helmet reflects the world that they lived in and the existing 791 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,760 industries. And I I would add that, you 792 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,760 know, sand today is still very important, a very important 793 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,440 ingredient. There have been books written on 794 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,240 the on the on. We think of it as kind of like a 795 00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:29,200 nothing material, but really it's, it's, it's it's highly 796 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,720 prized and, and there actually is a limit to the there are lots 797 00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:34,800 of different types of sand that you use for all different that 798 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,840 are used for different, for different for different 799 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,400 industries. And in fact, it's actually the 800 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:42,840 the world might be running out of sand. 801 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,400 But today, if we were, if we were, if we were saying this 802 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,920 midrish today, instead of talking about the how sand 803 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,880 implies the glass industry, we might take it a different way 804 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,880 and say that nowadays, with where the Jews on the coast of 805 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,080 Israel are all tech engaged in high tech, sand is used as one 806 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,600 of the main ingredients for making silicon. 807 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,800 So we might say, well, what is the what is the, the, the hidden 808 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,800 treasure of the sand that that that is exists in the Zulu 809 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,000 nowadays. It's the silicon, it's the high 810 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,680 tech industry, which would be a cute spin on it for for modern 811 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,920 times. Yeah, very, very. 812 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:24,120 That's super interesting. And also, I think people can 813 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,360 really appreciate the fact that Israel is like a port nation 814 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,440 that is in the ancient world connecting. 815 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,440 It's the connecting line between two of the biggest empires in 816 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,560 the world that often gets overlooked. 817 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,920 You know, you have Bavel and then you have Egypt. 818 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,360 So like, you're almost forced to travel through Israel and get 819 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,920 influenced. So either be influenced, get 820 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:47,640 influenced. Yeah. 821 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,560 Ideally be influenced. Unfortunately, often, you know, 822 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,440 fight a war and 'cause all sorts of havoc. 823 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,200 Course, of course. Well, this is this is Sakhar's. 824 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,000 Thankfully, thankfully, nowadays we're in, we're in a position 825 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,440 where, where, where Israel is strong enough that they, that 826 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,000 people have come to Israel for, for technological and for 827 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,480 commerce and for spiritual reasons and not just to, to, to 828 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,280 try and trample. Yeah. 829 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,560 I, I think that the Sakhar's Voluna inside is really, really 830 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,760 fascinating and just, you know, I'm, I'm going to look more into 831 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,320 that and see how everything fits in because it really makes a lot 832 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,280 of sense. We wanted to thank you for 833 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,320 coming on. This was really an interesting 834 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,960 podcast. Really just your book is amazing 835 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,800 and do. You have any future projects 836 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,680 coming up? Well, do you mean book projects 837 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,240 or do you mean architectural projects? 838 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,600 Well, I'm probably asking about books, but feel free to share 839 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:53,640 any project so. You know, I, in terms of 840 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:58,120 writing, I, I do enjoy writing scholarly articles for journals 841 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,360 and I've, after spending 18 years working on this book, you 842 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,960 know, articles seem a little bit more manageable, but there are a 843 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,440 few, there are a few long term projects that I have in mind. 844 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,080 And I, I, I wrote a Hebrew English Dictionary, 845 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,320 architectural dictionary, which I, which I give to people when 846 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,680 they one nephesh, but nephesh sometimes connects architects 847 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,800 who are making Alia and they give them my numbers so that I 848 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,440 could, you know, talk to them about the field. 849 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,960 And I think one of the most beneficial things that I could 850 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,600 help them out with is just the lexicon of, of cause 'cause 851 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,640 there's no pun in the world that teaches you how to talk the 852 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,320 language of an architect in Hebrew. 853 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,520 You know, it just, it doesn't exist. 854 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,280 So it's, it's, it's useful. But another project is maybe 855 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,440 there are a number of ancient source books for Latin and Greek 856 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:45,880 works that talk about architecture. 857 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,000 And I think I've already done a lot of the work in terms of 858 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,240 gathering the sources. So I've thought about maybe 859 00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:52,440 taking all, all of these, you know, my notes from these 860 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,440 binders and arranging the raw sources in a format that would 861 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,480 give access to the scholars who might not be familiar with 862 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,040 rabbinic literature. And, and, and do that. 863 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,480 I'm also, you know, working on some stuff, some some other 864 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,560 stuff about, about the Beita Mikdash. 865 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,480 And like I said, some some articles that I have coming out 866 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,440 soon in in different in different journals. 867 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,600 I was saying keep 18 years. You said you worked on this 868 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,160 book. Well, it's a question. 869 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,240 So I have my, my roommate from college tells me that I was 870 00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:25,840 already talking about this book when we were in college. 871 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,120 That would be, that would be more than 18 years, But I, I 872 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,640 definitely started working on it. 873 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,040 I was working on it. But when I, when I moved to 874 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:38,840 Israel, which was, which was in 2004, so, you know, and, and the 875 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:40,880 book came out in 2000, I think in 23, right? 876 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:46,040 So it, it was a long term project, but one of the things I 877 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,600 think is that if you, I always viewed it as a long term 878 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,400 project, I took my time doing it, took my time researching it. 879 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,680 It was a lot of, you know, covered a lot of material went, 880 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,920 went, went systematically. And when we read, when the book 881 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,480 is read, you could tell that it's done very meticulously and 882 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,920 with a lot of care. It meaning you. 883 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,120 I'm just backing up what you're saying and that you can, I can 884 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,480 see as I'm reading this that you know, you're not just, you know, 885 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,000 it's, it's very, very, very well thought out. 886 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:12,720 Thank you so much. Yeah. 887 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,120 Oh, and I want we have to also share the. 888 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,680 Yes, that's the the cover and we're gonna we're. 889 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,520 Out. It's a big book. 600 pages. 890 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,000 And I should mention that it's published by or in publications. 891 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,920 Or in publications. And we're going to we're going 892 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,080 to add a link to the book in the description of the podcast. 893 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,160 Everyone could could get it. Absolutely. 894 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,400 And as a podcast, there's nothing personally, there's 895 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,360 nothing more important than taking your passions and 896 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,960 figuring out a way to grow from it and to serve a sham with it. 897 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,680 And you have basically spent your whole life doing that. 898 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,880 And that is something very admirable. 899 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,280 And I think that it is worthwhile for people to get the 900 00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,920 book. It's easy to read in the step 901 00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:01,600 from the standpoint that it's not long winded. 902 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,560 It has a concise and to the point. 903 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,600 The chapters flow very nicely. You could take 1015 minutes on a 904 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:15,880 Friday night read through the 222 essays per parsha and and 905 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,480 you come across things that are just valuable and interesting 906 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,680 and insightful. And I really hope and suggest 907 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,960 that people buy the book and we really appreciate you coming on. 908 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,840 Thank you so much for having me. This has been really lovely and 909 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,960 I'm I'm thrilled to hear that you enjoyed the book. 910 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,440 Really did it really did. Hope everyone buys it. 911 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,520 Thank you so much. Thank you too.