Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed.
Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and
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By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find
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Enjoy the show. Thank you for joining the
Judaism Demystified podcast. We are so honored to have Joshua
Scarf on the show to discuss his book Architect Torah.
It's a very fascinating concept. We'd like to ask you to tell us
a little bit about it. Can you share your background in
architecture and what inspired you to write this unique and
challenging book exploring the intersection of architecture and
Torah? Sure.
Well, thank. First of all, thank you very
much for having me on your show. It's nice to be here.
The book, I should say is is arranged according to the weekly
Torah portions. It's a it's, it's, it's arranged
by the parsha. Let me let me I think the best
place to start in terms of explaining my background is with
a story about when I was a student in college.
I grew up in the suburb of Detroit, Southfield and I after
spending two years in in in Yeshiva Hartzio and I went to
University of Michigan to study architecture.
My goal was to become an architect and make Alia 1
semester. We had a a class in
architectural history and for our term paper we had to choose
any it was very open any post World War Two topic that showed
how architecture could be used for political reasons.
And so like most of my college work, I wanted to find a topic
that had to do with either Israel or Judaism.
And I decided that I would write about how the Old City of
Jerusalem was redeveloped after 1967.
Now, from going on tours as a kid, I, I, I knew the Cardo and
I knew the Korva, the Korva synagogue.
And I wanted to find a third project.
And I was poking around to try and find something.
I found this amazing plan that had been commissioned by, by, by
by the government in the 1970s to design the Kotel Plaza.
Now, I think a lot of people don't realize that the Kotel
Plaza, the way it is right now, was never intended to be
permanent. That's sort of just where the
bulldozers stopped clearing the residential neighborhood that
had been there before the war. And after they did that, they
laid down flagstones. And they sort of intended that
to be temporary. But, and then, and then early in
the 1970s, they commissioned, they invited a number of
internationally famous architects to come up with a
permanent design for, for how the quotel would look.
One of the people they invited, the one who ended up winning,
was a young Israeli architect who had just risen to
international fame named Moshe Safdie.
And at the time I was a young student, I wasn't so familiar
with his work, but when I read about him and I realized he has
a he has an office in Boston where my sister lived.
And he had an office in Toronto where my family was originally
from. And he had an office in
Jerusalem. I thought, well, I came up with
this great pipe dream where I would start work, I would try
and get a job with him in America and then I would, when I
was ready to make aliyah, I would transfer to the Jerusalem
offices the type of the type of plan that only somebody very
young and naive come up with. The next morning I walked into
the office of the Dean of my program and I said, I want you
to help me get an internship this summer with Sakti.
So after he laughed at me, he said, well, we have this program
where during spring break, instead of going to the beach or
whatever people do, we set we set up our students for a week
long internship in different offices.
And in the past we put people in Safi's office.
We could try and get you in there and if they like you,
maybe they'll hire you back for the summer.
And that's pretty much what happened.
They got me in. I worked there for a week.
I ended up getting hired there during the summer after the next
year I graduated from college, they hired me back again for
another summer, I think because I was their.
They were their shortstop on their softball team.
And and then at the end of the summer, I, I asked if I could,
if I could transfer to the Jerusalem office.
It wasn't the simplest process, but it ended up working out and
I made out. Yeah.
And I moved to, I moved to Jerusalem.
Now just just for reference, the, the Safti's office at the
time that I joined it had was just completing two major
projects in Israel. They were completing the Yad
Vashem Museum and they were completing the the new terminal.
What was that the new terminal in in Ben Gurion Airport?
So it's a major office with a lot of a great place to start a
career. I worked there for five years,
but because of the differences between architectural education
in the United States and in Israel, I had to like go back to
school and complete a degree in Israel, which I did at Batalo
School of Design in Jerusalem. And afterwards I was hired at a
firm called Pellet Kimmelman, where I still work and we do
mostly pub what in Israel is called public buildings.
So hospitals and schools, train stations.
I'm working on right now some Israeli consulates, some city
planning. So that's sort of my background
in architecture education and, and work wise.
In answer to the second part of the question about, about how I
came to, to write this book when I was in Michigan and certainly
when I was in Patel, I was always really interested when
topics that we discussed in lectures had parallel
discussions in the Talmud, which I, I know it doesn't sound
intuitive, but it's amazing how, how, how these things tend to
come up, especially if you, if you're looking at the world in a
specific way. When I was in high school, I'd
begun studying Daphiomi and by that point I was looking to do
something that was a little bit more in depth beyond and I
thought it would be interesting to write about architecture in
rabbinic literature. So and I from the start, I
thought about it as as sort of like doing it parsha by parsha
by each weekly Torah portion. And so as a test, I went through
Bray sheet, which seemed to me to be a very UN architectural,
you know, book. And I made a list of all the
architectural topics that that I came across.
And this showed me that it was like it, it was possible that I
could do it. And so then I set to work doing
research on the various topics that I had identified.
And at the same time, I started indexing architectural topics,
going through Mishnah Tosefta, both Talmud's Midrash Halacha
and much of Madrash Agada and the Mishnah Torah.
Just I have a couple of binders that are just full with each
page devoted to a different topic and, you know, keeping
track of sources. While at the same time, whenever
I came, it was reading an architecture book that had
nothing to do with Judaism. I would also cross reference it
in, in, in the same binder. And then there was a process
where I sort of connected each topic with the specific partial
that I thought was appropriate for it.
And that's really how I built the framework for the, for the
book. Now it's not, I'm not, there
have been attempts before, 1 notable attempt by by a scholar
named Samuel Krauss who did this in Vienna 150 years ago, going
through and writing, cataloguing.
A lot of the topics of that had to do with architecture that
were in rabbinic literature. But it was sort of a, a very
different time and certainly not intended to be a partial book.
But that that's basically how I how I conceived the book and how
I set about writing it. Well, first of all, that's I
think what the coolest thing is that you as an individual have
like a lasting impression on the landscape of Israel, which is
pretty cool. That's a that's a big zahoot,
you know, like, it's amazing. Definitely one of the one of the
perks of being an architect here where you talk about like old
school Zionism where you go and build the land and most people
do that in their own way. But here you sort of literally
say that there are parts of it that you've had your hands in.
It's it's a great feeling. Amazing, amazing.
That is that's that's fascinating.
OK, so your book organizes essays into 4 categories, each
demonstrating how knowledge of architecture can deepen one's
understanding of the Torah. Can you elaborate on these
categories and what you hope the book will contribute and inspire
to the readers? Sure.
OK, Well, people are I guess are often surprised that there's
enough material, architectural material in the Torah to fill
A600 page book. If you ask most people and I've
had this conversation with people, they say well after
after Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel and the Tabernacle,
what else is there? And I think that's mostly
because people don't appreciate the full purview of of an
architect and what a vast array of topics go into architectural
design. And in addition, we basically
live our lives surrounded by architecture and men.
So obviously many of the stories that happened in the Torah are
in a built setting. And so therefore they have a
backdrop of architecture. And there are stories that
hinge, excuse the pun, on doors or windows or on the setup of a
kitchen or on food storage if you're talking about Yosef or on
jails and Thrones, access roads, building materials.
I mean, the list is, is almost endless in terms of in terms of
the stories. And so if you are looking at
those specific topics, it really opens it, you realize that
architecture really plays an important role in many parts of
the Torah. So to make this point, I wrote
in the introduction to my book that the topic, the topics can
be divided into 4 different categories.
So you have like the, the, the, the main, the basic idea of just
architecture described in the Torah, which is I think what,
like I said, most people would have in mind when you mention
the topic. But then there's also Jewish law
that involves architecture. So railings guard railings to
keep people safe for privacy and windows.
There's also more obscure topics that have to do with
architectural theory that you can connect to the text, like
building topology or ornamentation or architectural
preservation. These are all topics that can
get into it. And it's interesting because the
Bible is such an influential foundation of Western
civilization. You actually find a lot of
architectural theorists writing and quoting text verses from the
Bible as part of their arguments.
It's, it's, it's an, it, it comes up not, not rarely.
And that certainly always fun when that happens.
And then the 4th category I would say has to do with the
archaeological discoveries that relate to both the the
architecture and the verses in the Torah, what scholars might
call Realia, and understanding certain architectural features
that help you appreciate what text what what's going on in the
text and how they existed at the time.
I would say most people have no reason to consider the passages
in the Torah from an architectural point of view.
But so doing so opens up like a whole new way of thinking about
about the verses that you would otherwise not come across.
And I felt that doing so could lead both to interesting
insights in the Torah, and it can also have a secondary
benefit of teaching people a little bit about architecture
along the way. I, my, my feeling is that my
personal opinion is that our, of Odaf Hashem, our service of, of
God is enhanced by our involvement in the world.
And so any expertise that we might gain in our professional
life or otherwise, we can use that as a tool to help
understand the Torah. And this book was me putting
that into practice, you know, showing how the knowledge that I
have in architecture can be brought to bear on the Torah in
a fruitful way. Amazing.
Yeah, that's really what it is. It's a very important.
Point instruction for life. That's what it is.
It's to enhance everything we do.
So I, I, we, we love that. That's that's exactly what I
want to have you on exactly in in your chapter, Shamot 32, you
discuss the burning Bush. How does your architectural
perspective shed new light on this iconic moment in the Torah?
OK, well, as an example of one of the subjects that might not
immediately come to mind as an architectural topic, I, I can
tell you that an important part of any building design that we
do nowadays, it is involves the safety plan of the building and
making sure, especially fire safety and making sure that in
case of a fire, there's time for the people who are in the
building to escape. If a building catches fire, we
want to make sure that the fire will be contained in one part of
the building and especially that it'll leave free the, the escape
routes, which, you know, hallways and, and staircases, so
that people will have enough time to flee.
And so you figure out how, how many people are in the building,
how much time it takes to evacuate them all.
And, and then you have to make sure that the materials that
surround those areas can hold up for that long.
So we don't talk about materials as being fireproof.
We talk about them as being fire rated, which means that you,
you, the safety engineer will, for example, say this door needs
to be able to stand up for 90 minutes before the fire will be
able to eat its way through the, the, the, the leaf of the door
and spread into the stairwell. This, by the way, for people who
live in apartment buildings and see that people prop open the
big heavy doors that are in the stairwell.
Well, you're, you're negating the whole purpose of being able
to make sure that that that that is a contained unit where the
fire won't spread and people won't be, will be able to escape
through the stairwell. You want to keep it as a
separate fire area so that in the case of a fire, people will
be able to use it to escape. So we talked about fire rating
in terms of making sure that there's enough time for people
to get out of the building. When we talk about the burning
Bush, we often think of it as a miraculous fireproof Bush that
Moshe went in that was somehow on fire but not being eaten at
all. And some commentators, Sporno
and Fiskuni, and it also appears in in Exodus.
Raba treats this as a, a metaphor for Benezrel in in
Egypt, where it was sort of to encourage or to assuage Moshe
that that Benezrell was was was going to be OK and trying that
no matter what happened to them, they would be they would not be
completely consumed. But I think that an equally
valid reading of of this has Moshe looking at this Bush,
which is some desert ramble, and seeing that it's not being
burned the way that you would expect dry Bush in the desert to
sort of go up in flames almost instantaneously.
It was taking longer to combust. In other words, that it's it's
it, it took longer to burn than you would expect.
It wasn't not burning at all. It was just, it was just going
up a lot slower than it than than could be reasonably
expected. And if that's true, then the
symbolism of the burning Bush is entirely different.
It's not that bin Israel is indestructible and that
nothing's going to happen to them in Egypt, but rather
there's a limited amount of time that the Bush is going to hold
up. You need to, you know, like like
a fire escape, you need to make your escape now.
And it's this makes it more into a call of action to Moshe.
We know Moshe was a little bit hesitant about about how he
should be involved in this. And Hashem was saying, no,
there's not time. It's burning.
It's I make, I'm holding it off. It's holding off as long as we
can. But you don't have the luxury of
turning down the this mission. You have to act now or have the
risk having Benazir be consumed by the fire.
The the beauty of this also is that it works into the
conversation that shaman Moshe have.
Right, right. Yeah.
So so Moshe is being timid and being, you know, like I don't
want to do it. And like, and, and the burning
Bush is, is has it's playing into on the ground what is
actually being discussed in during Moshe's prophecy.
So that's a, it's a very interesting perspective.
It's something to think about. And that the purpose of these
next few questions that we're going to have is to bring, bring
different examples from your book so people can see what kind
of insights are able to be gleaned.
So that was a very interesting that that really popped off when
I saw that. That's a very sensitive point as
well. OK, so your chapter on Schmut
Periche focuses on brick making in Egypt.
Can you elaborate on how architecture and engineering and
engineering knowledge inform our understanding of the Israelites
labor? Well, this is a great example of
how understanding Realia in the Torah in the Torah could be
helpful to to to your general understanding of the verses.
The essay in my book I should Just as a little background, the
essays in my book are almost all 2 to 3 pages long.
Some of them get to four to five pages.
There might be a handful that are a little bit longer, a
handful of the 178 S CS, but I I mostly try and keep them short
and and clear. I wanted the essays to be
interesting to lay people who have no background in
architecture, but to make sure they include enough sources so
that scholars could use the information if they're
interested. I wanted people who are not well
versed in rabbinic literature to be able to use the book as a
resource also. So if somebody you know, not
people who are writing about architecture don't necessarily
know, know the mission of backwards and forwards.
So if somebody's studying it, I don't know any topic column
design and antiquity. They can find a chapter on the
subject and and from there get references that are in rabbinic
literature. Anyways, back to the question.
There's certainly a lot of scholarly material on brick
making in ancient Egypt, but I try not to get lost in the
weeds. Rather, I wanted to make the
point that the mud bricks that they were using require binding
material, which is to say straw, and in order to make sure that
the bricks don't develop crack. Now the way they would make you
can make bricks without straw and the process of making them
is you, you, you, you, you take the, you take the mud, you put
it into a mold and then you bake it and it, it the bricks in, in
in ancient manuals where they talk about how you make mud
bricks. The bricks aren't supposed to be
used for years after they're made so that so that they're
certainly that they're properly dry and have the right amount of
strength. And so if you make bricks,
bricks without straw, nobody. And then months or years later
somebody goes to use them and they crack, well, at that point,
go figure out which slave didn't put straw into their mud, right?
And I imagine that this would be the obvious obstinate response
from the slaves. If Pyro comes to them and says,
I'm not giving you straw anymore, you know, make them
without make, get the straw yourself, they'll say, OK,
you're not going to give us straw.
We'll make the bricks without straw.
And then, you know, and who's going to be the wiser.
And that's the reason, I think that Pyro insists that the
slaves continue to use the same what the word he uses as maconet
of bricks, which commentators usually interpret that as as
meaning the same number of bricks that they had put out.
There's beautiful midrashim in the about how they determined
how many bricks the nasal were capable of making.
But I think that in in the way that the word makon in modern
Hebrew means recipe that it it, it could very well mean that
power was insisting that they continue to use the same recipe,
the same ingredients in making the bricks.
Meaning like, I'm not giving you the straw, but you still have to
continue to use straw in making the bricks.
You can't just like, you know, throw up your hands and say, OK,
we'll just make them with mud and then they won't be very
useful to you. It's also interesting to note
that in these manuals that talk about making straw.
Brick making was identified as a springtime activity.
You couldn't make, you didn't want to make bricks in the
winter or all year round. It was specifically done in the
spring so that they would the conditions would be right for
them to dry and and get the strength that that that was
necessary. We, when we read the stories
about Benaszrel making bricks and Mitzrayim, we sort of assume
that this is their main activity that they were doing as slaves.
But the truth is, is that it was probably a seasonal task and it
was one of, if you think about their activities building these
these cities, it was probably just one of the many tasks that
they had to do in, in Egypt. And in the springtime they might
be doing baking bricks and at other times they might be
preparing other materials that were necessary for building
pitomidramsis. But it might specifically be
chosen as a springtime activity because the whole story of
Mitrim is about is, is, is focused on springtime.
And Rabbi Akiva and the Gemara talks about how the redemption
and Mitrim took 12 months. So if you, if, if this is the
start of the, of the redemption, then this is, it's starting in
spring. And by the time a year passes
and they come back around, that's when Vinay's soil is
freed from each time. So understanding the insurance
and outs of of brick making really brings a a level, an
added level of understanding to what's going on in these
stories. Really interesting.
So regarding Shimot 10, you analyze wind patterns related to
the to the splitting of the sea. This is really interesting.
Yeah, this one is really. Interesting.
So how does this approach combine architectural knowledge
and Torah study? You're doing a great job at
picking topics that that, you know, illustrate my earlier
point about the breadth of architectural topics and how you
know so many different details go into good architectural
design. So wind.
OK, ten years ago, my wife and I took a trip to Athens, and it's
a great city to explore for somebody with my interests in
ancient architecture. Among the many famous ancient
buildings that are still standing there is this small
octagonal structure called the Tower of the Winds.
And the reason it's called that is because on each of the eight
sides of the building, it's decorated with a different
depiction of a different wind. Now, in in the ancient world,
they talked about winds. They gave each each of them,
they gave winds a name. And it one of the reasons why
this building is cool is because it's actually described by the
Roman architectural writer Vitruvius.
And it's which in his own in in his manual, which is the only
surviving architectural manual from antiquity.
And he talks about this building.
And you could actually still go and see it today.
Anyways, the ancients and the people today also have specific
names for various winds that are prevalent from a specific
direction. Homer talked about four
different winds and Aristotle talked about 8 different winds
and some mentioned up to 24 depending on east by northeast
and how how how finely you want to divide it.
And the Rabbis and the Talmud also talk about different types
of winds. They talk and and their
characteristics. They talk about the harsh, the
beneficial north wind or the harsh S wind and what what what
those each wind does to or harbinges.
So it's important to recognize that there is a typical wind
pattern. If you live in a specific place,
there are there are directions that the winds tend to blow from
and often those are are recognized.
I know, for example, I live in Jerusalem and the wind in my
neighborhood always comes from the West.
And you could tell this because the western windows are the ones
that get filthiest during the winter, So you have to wash them
more often. But it's very helpful in in
terms of architecture, because if you, you could take advantage
of this to, to passively cool your building.
If you design the the way that you let wind in or the how the
building is oriented, then you could get a good breeze during
the right times of the year to cool off your building without
using air. Air conditioning, which is what
people did for thousands of years until air conditioning was
invented. And then sort of they kind of
forgot that there was this much more economical and
environmentally friendly way of cooling off your buildings
within to a certain degree. And you could, you know, you
could you, you use different techniques so that you block the
wind during the during the cold months and you make use of the
wind during the hot months. Anyways, different.
So, so you would know the different winds that existed in
in your area and give names to them.
So for example, there's a, there's a wind that's called the
Boreas wind. And interestingly, in some
places it's considered a northern wind, but Vitruvius
talks about it more as an Easter wind.
And that I think has to do with just the, the, the, the, the
specifics of where you live. In certain areas, you know, the
wind might come from one place and in another it might come
from another. So in the Torah, both in the
splitting of the sea and in the plague of locusts, it mentions
this a wind which it identifies as the Kadim wind, which most
comment most most commentators talk about as an eastern wind.
There's one scholar in Israel, Yitzhak's Maidalists, notes that
in Israel, the Kadim wind was coming from the east, which was
where the sun rose. So it was like the most
prominent direction. But Egypt, in Egypt, they use
the term to Orient according to their touchstone, which was the
Nile, which runs NS. So for them, Kadim came from the
Kadim wind was coming from the South.
And this makes sense in terms of in the context of the locust
plague where it says that they were they came with the Kadim
wind and and he'd squirno points out that the locusts actually
arrived from South of Egypt, from Sudan and not from the
east. Now what's interesting is that
the Torah doesn't specify whether the winds that split the
sea and the wind that brings the locust is something that's
normal or something that that's extraordinary.
And commentators take it in each direction.
Some say, no, this is clearly miraculous and it's showing how
Hashem is controlling nature. And others say no, Hashem is
working within nature, within the natural patterns of
meteorology in order to, to bring the plagues.
I would argue that the fact that the the the the Torah reference
is a a regular named wind, which I assume people knew about and
was was a was a a wind that people expected implies that
this was actually a regular force that was at work.
The, the, the yeah. So the, the title of the work
Kadeem is it's a known title. It's a title that it's expecting
you to already know what it's the it's reference.
And so, yeah, that that is. Right.
Like so in Israel we talked about like Kamsin or we, we
talked about different weathering patterns that
happened in specific times during the year where you expect
wind or sand or whatever to be blown in from a certain
direction. And, and I think you know that
that that's definitely what Kadeem wind was, was, was was a
similar type of a weather pattern that people expected.
Just out of curiosity, so you mentioned the locusts.
I'm sure they're still locusts, you know, or forming, you know,
during certain seasons have has this has this theory from the
South been kind of proven that we can actually watch the
patterns of locust during certain seasons and see like,
oh, makes sense. It's coming from there.
Is that something that? My my understanding is that it's
it's a known phenomenon. I'm not that knowledgeable about
it, but from what I, from what I understand from these papers
that I've read that yes, this, this is something that that is
tracked and it's a known thing that, that when the, the locusts
that come to mitzvah, they come to Egypt even today arrived from
the South, from, from the direction of Sudan.
Very interesting. Right, So that's the idea here
is, is that Hashem works within nature using familiar natural
phenomenon to his own, to his own manipulation and his own.
Right. And then, of course, you get to
the point where, OK, that's it's fine that that that God works
with the nature, but the fact that he's that it happens just
at the exact time that you know, for example, that Beniso get to
the sea. Well, that, that's pretty.
The timing more so than the mechanism.
Yes, exactly. Gotcha.
OK, we haven't. So in Shimote 20 you explore the
connection between idols and architecture.
Can you discuss how this sheds light on the prohibition against
graven images? Sure.
This is actually a topic that comes directly from a class that
I took in art history, which is closely connected to
architecture. And it also connects to an
interesting paper that was written by another professor of
mine at at University of Michigan, Yoronelia.
And he wrote about how Jews in antiquity lived in a very richly
sculpted environment surrounded by idols.
Meaning if you walk down a classical city, then you would
you would be passing carvings and all sorts of elements that
that could be could be seen as problematic.
So this most famously comes up in the in in the mission of that
with regard to Rabbi Gamliel in the bath House of Aphrodite,
which is a a famous and and very discussed topic when it comes to
discussing of what does around the and and the built
environment that the that that the the Jews lived in in in the
time of the Mishnah. But idols were everywhere.
So questions come up in the Misha, can you drink from a or
in the Tosethic, can you drink from a fountain that was carved
to look like a face? Does it look like you're
worshipping it by by by bending over and essentially kissing his
mouth? Are you are all idols forbidden?
Or is it just ones that are holding symbolic objects you
know and and that that demonstrate that they're
supposed to be worshipped? Can an architect design a
building that's intended for idol worship or that there's
going to be idol worship taking place in it?
The initial inclination with idols, I think, is to think of
freestanding, you know, fully 3D sculptures, statues of of, of
gods or people and perhaps like the statue of Aphrodite in this
bath house. But these were really only a a
small part of the sculpted environment.
You might find, you know, in the building, you might find a niche
that had a a free standing sculpture in it.
But more often you'd see freezes and pediments and arches and all
manners of other architectural features that were carved with
figures in relief. What relief means is that it's,
it's, it's attached to the wall and it's sort of coming out at
you. And, and that was much more
common that when we talk about people being surrounded by
idols. And, and that's really what,
what majority of the carvings were like.
So art historians classify these as high relief, which means that
they're, let's say 75%, they're only attached to the wall by a
little bit or low relief where they're a little bit coming out
of the wall. But basically, they're mostly
surrounded on on three sides by they're mostly attached to the
wall. And Irish law tends to be more
lenient with sculptures that were carved in relief, except if
you're talking about faces and astronomical bodies.
So I suggest that this reflects how each type of sculpture was
used. Freestanding idols might be more
of a focal point and therefore were more problematic.
Whereas sculptures in relief that were part of the of the the
side of a building were used more to decorate and to tell
stories and rather than to serve as objects of worship.
And the rabbis, in any case, had to navigate how they could go
about living in a world that, you know, on could be seen as
very problematic walking through this this environment that had
so many carvings. And at the same time, this was
the world that they lived in. And they, you know, were able to
to to go about their business without it, without seeing it as
too problematic. Very interesting.
Yes, so, so the distinguishing between the different types of
the distinguishing within different types of sculptures or
or those distinguishments allowed for certain leniencies,
which would make sense being that these things were all
around and you had to be able to give a realistic, a realistic
way. Forward for.
The people in in the inhabited towns.
Yeah. I mean, I think that's true.
I also think it's fair to ask to what extent were these objects
really intended to be used as, as objects of worship that, you
know, if, if I can't, I can't necessarily answer that question
because I don't, I didn't live in that time.
But for the people who are living in, you know, 3rd century
Sipori, were 4th century Sipori, Were they?
Were they really looking around at, like, they're carved
environments and thinking of it as as idols?
Or were they thinking it more like, say, if you were to go to
like, a baseball stadium and see statues of, like, you know,
Willie Mays outside? Gotcha.
OK, so in Devarim Perikvov you explore the inheritance of
Canaanite cities. How does an understanding of
ancient urban planning enrich our appreciation of this
narrative? OK, we, we architects would like
to believe that our designs can influence the way that people
live their lives in our building.
Meaning if a building is designed well, it could
reinforce your way of living. It could make it could it could
it could alter how, how, how, how you live your daily life and
be very influential. There, they'll say that.
By the way. Isn't that three things that has
all say Dirana ah? Yep, Yep.
I mean, so there was a movement in, in in the 80s and early 90s
where they talked a lot in America, where they talked a lot
about the way that suburbs in, in America are designed.
And how if you, if you go to, if you drive through your typical
American suburb, you'll think and you look at the houses,
you'll say, ah, a car lives here because front and center is the
garage. You drive into your garage.
And in this in this movement, they said we need to get away
from designing buildings that are car centric and try and come
up with communities, design communities where it gives
people the opportunity to to make connections with their
neighbors, to sit on their porches, to be friendly with
each other and not just get in your car, drive to work, get in
your car, drive back, drive to the store where where they're
there are not these these person opportunities for personal
connection. Building Building a courtyard.
Like a circular courtyard for people.
For example, it's called new Urbanism anyway, so that's just
like one small example of how you might say that the the way
that your your house or your city is designed might affect
your your, your quality of life and really just even the way
that you behave and even you're medot.
There are a number of times in the Torah where beneath the El
are warned that they're going to be going into Canaan, they're
going to be taking over cities that were built that they didn't
build houses and cisterns that are pre-existing and and warning
them. So why is there a threat?
What is problematic about it? Some commentators talk about
hubris and obtaining wealth without any effort.
Lafdale, the past football coach of Michigan, Jim Harbaugh, had a
great quote that he said to his counterpart in Ohio State, Ryan
Day. He said some people are are are
are standing on third base and they think that they had a
triple, but they didn't. Meaning like he had inherited
the program from his predecessor.
So similarly, Vinay's, you know, Vinay's what we're going to be
acquiring all of this, all of all, of all of these houses.
And perhaps that was the problem, that they were going to
think that it was from something that they had done when really
it was it was just being gifted to them in a sense.
But I think that in in an additional danger here is that
they were taking over towns that were built as part of a foreign
Pagan culture. And living in this built
environment can have a corrupting influence.
The Gemara in Shkaling, for example, talks about, it tells a
story about there was a time where there's a conflict in a
certain synagogue and a Torah was torn.
And somebody says that the reason why there's this conflict
is because this, this used to be a, a House of a Pagan temple,
used to be a beta Voda Azara, meaning that like the, the, the,
the, the fact that you've taken over this area somehow corrupts
the people who are, who are, who are there.
We have examples of using architecture to influence a
culture. So for example, the Romans did
this with their colonies. I think the Greeks did this with
their colonies as well with Alexandria and, and and building
cities that showed off their culture to the to the natives
and and got them to adopt a Roman way of life.
So Tacitus talks about subverting the Britons into
adopting Roman culture and he writes, here's a quote.
He says little by little, the Britons were seduced into
alluring vices, the lounge, the bath, the well appointed dinner
table and the simple natives gave the name of culture to this
fact of their slavery, meaning they were, they didn't even
realize it, but they were because the the Romans were
building cities in a certain way, it could not help but
influence the the the the existing culture.
And I think this was a danger for the Israelites when they
were entering Canaan. And it could equally be a danger
to Jews in the diaspora. If you think about the way that
synagogues evolved in some, in some, in some, in some cultures,
in some parts of the diaspora, thinking about these verses from
these perspective, I think opens up this this different
interpretation of, of of what could be the problem and why?
Why Beneath Shell needed to be warned that it wasn't going to
be so simple just coming in and taking over this built
environment, this existing fabric of of cities that that
might not be as benign as they thought.
This is such a fascinating topic.
Just I never even considered this, but it makes so much sense
that the way you know, the, the city is built can influence how
people behave. It's, it's a, it's mind blowing,
actually. I'm still digesting it.
Very, very interesting. I, this is like one of the
chapters, I think that will get people excited to read the book,
hopefully. So thank you for that.
And for our last question, in your section in Devarim 33, you
discussed the interplay between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
You also wrote What About These Cities earlier in the book.
Can you discuss the architectural and spiritual
insights these essays provide? I think one of the first DeVry
tour I ever gave as a kid that I ever wrote on my own years and
years ago was about the relationship between Yisahar and
Zvulun, the well known interpretation of Rashi about
them splitting their learning and work and and the arrangement
that they have. But when you look at the the my
fortune, you see that that the Rashi's interpretation is is
really an outlier. Most other commentators don't
take it in that direction. The Sifri explains it entirely
differently, saying that this really highlights this that that
that Isahar and Zulun highlights the role of commerce in bringing
other nations closer to Hashem. If you.
Want to be influential in the world, and I think that that's
part of our job as Jews, to try and influence the world for the
better. Then you need to interface with
the world in some way. You need to connect with other
nations. And so it was important in the
time of the of the Torah and to have ports for trade, to bring
people into the land of Israel. And the Sifri explains that
people would come to the ports for business reasons and then
while they were there, they would explore the monotheistic
culture of been a Israel and they would travel to Jerusalem
to tour the city. And this would have a very
beneficial influence on them. And some of them would come to
convert and others of them would be exposed to monotheism.
And this was this it says he, they explained, the Sifri
explains is is is is what the dynamic of Issachar and Zwouen
is about, is about having people coming, bringing people,
inviting people into your culture and then having them
come see what's going on in in your not just in your business
world, but in your spiritual world.
And I think this explanation makes a lot of sense.
It also fits very well with modern Israel because you have
people who come for the high tech, for the culture in Tel
Aviv and other people who are coming for spiritual reasons,
who are drawn. And no matter the reason why,
why people are coming to, to Israel, if they come and they
visit Jerusalem and, and, and, and other spiritual areas of,
of, of the country, they are exposed to this, this level of
holiness, which is very important.
And it it, but it's not, it's it on its own.
It wouldn't be enough to bring people in.
You need to have the, the two things ideally, although they
are sometimes in conflict. And we have sections of the
Gabbar which talk about not, not Tel Aviv, but Kesari on how
those two cities, Kesari and Yushalayim were always in, in
conflict. But ideally they work hand in
hand. And both are important for our
for for our influence, our mission to influence the the
world At the same time, there's a very interesting way that the
Rabbi's of the Talmud refer to the verses that are describing
the blessings of Zvulun to be nourished by the abundance of
the Seas and the hidden treasures of the sand.
So the Talmud talks about glass production and how glass made in
this part of the world was highly desirable, which is 100%
true. In in fact, ancient scholars
even suggest that glass was invented in like in Israel near
Akal, and that that's where the the idea of using sands to make
glass was discovered, was discovered.
It happens that the the sand that exists on the on on the
coast of Israel was specifically prized for glass making because
of its purity, because the amount of because of its
chemical content that it made exceptionally pure and and clear
glass. And in fact, the archaeologists
have found glass factories, ships that are sunk off the
coast of Israel that have, you know, large amounts of glass in
them as part of part of the trading.
And so, so in the, in the, in the Gemara, where, when when
discussing these verses, the rabbi's say, well, what was the
treasure that was hidden in the, in the sand that it talks about
in the verse? And they say, well, obviously
this is the glass industry that existed in at the time.
And my sister-in-law used to work at the at the Metropolitan
Museum of Art in the Department of Conservation one time.
But she came to visit us. One of her colleagues sent her
to one of these rivers to gather sands was they could bring it
back and test it to see to see what they what, what the big
what the big, you know, excitement was about.
But it's not at all surprising to find the commentary in let's
helmet reflects the world that they lived in and the existing
industries. And I I would add that, you
know, sand today is still very important, a very important
ingredient. There have been books written on
the on the on. We think of it as kind of like a
nothing material, but really it's, it's, it's it's highly
prized and, and there actually is a limit to the there are lots
of different types of sand that you use for all different that
are used for different, for different for different
industries. And in fact, it's actually the
the world might be running out of sand.
But today, if we were, if we were, if we were saying this
midrish today, instead of talking about the how sand
implies the glass industry, we might take it a different way
and say that nowadays, with where the Jews on the coast of
Israel are all tech engaged in high tech, sand is used as one
of the main ingredients for making silicon.
So we might say, well, what is the what is the, the, the hidden
treasure of the sand that that that is exists in the Zulu
nowadays. It's the silicon, it's the high
tech industry, which would be a cute spin on it for for modern
times. Yeah, very, very.
That's super interesting. And also, I think people can
really appreciate the fact that Israel is like a port nation
that is in the ancient world connecting.
It's the connecting line between two of the biggest empires in
the world that often gets overlooked.
You know, you have Bavel and then you have Egypt.
So like, you're almost forced to travel through Israel and get
influenced. So either be influenced, get
influenced. Yeah.
Ideally be influenced. Unfortunately, often, you know,
fight a war and 'cause all sorts of havoc.
Course, of course. Well, this is this is Sakhar's.
Thankfully, thankfully, nowadays we're in, we're in a position
where, where, where Israel is strong enough that they, that
people have come to Israel for, for technological and for
commerce and for spiritual reasons and not just to, to, to
try and trample. Yeah.
I, I think that the Sakhar's Voluna inside is really, really
fascinating and just, you know, I'm, I'm going to look more into
that and see how everything fits in because it really makes a lot
of sense. We wanted to thank you for
coming on. This was really an interesting
podcast. Really just your book is amazing
and do. You have any future projects
coming up? Well, do you mean book projects
or do you mean architectural projects?
Well, I'm probably asking about books, but feel free to share
any project so. You know, I, in terms of
writing, I, I do enjoy writing scholarly articles for journals
and I've, after spending 18 years working on this book, you
know, articles seem a little bit more manageable, but there are a
few, there are a few long term projects that I have in mind.
And I, I, I wrote a Hebrew English Dictionary,
architectural dictionary, which I, which I give to people when
they one nephesh, but nephesh sometimes connects architects
who are making Alia and they give them my numbers so that I
could, you know, talk to them about the field.
And I think one of the most beneficial things that I could
help them out with is just the lexicon of, of cause 'cause
there's no pun in the world that teaches you how to talk the
language of an architect in Hebrew.
You know, it just, it doesn't exist.
So it's, it's, it's useful. But another project is maybe
there are a number of ancient source books for Latin and Greek
works that talk about architecture.
And I think I've already done a lot of the work in terms of
gathering the sources. So I've thought about maybe
taking all, all of these, you know, my notes from these
binders and arranging the raw sources in a format that would
give access to the scholars who might not be familiar with
rabbinic literature. And, and, and do that.
I'm also, you know, working on some stuff, some some other
stuff about, about the Beita Mikdash.
And like I said, some some articles that I have coming out
soon in in different in different journals.
I was saying keep 18 years. You said you worked on this
book. Well, it's a question.
So I have my, my roommate from college tells me that I was
already talking about this book when we were in college.
That would be, that would be more than 18 years, But I, I
definitely started working on it.
I was working on it. But when I, when I moved to
Israel, which was, which was in 2004, so, you know, and, and the
book came out in 2000, I think in 23, right?
So it, it was a long term project, but one of the things I
think is that if you, I always viewed it as a long term
project, I took my time doing it, took my time researching it.
It was a lot of, you know, covered a lot of material went,
went, went systematically. And when we read, when the book
is read, you could tell that it's done very meticulously and
with a lot of care. It meaning you.
I'm just backing up what you're saying and that you can, I can
see as I'm reading this that you know, you're not just, you know,
it's, it's very, very, very well thought out.
Thank you so much. Yeah.
Oh, and I want we have to also share the.
Yes, that's the the cover and we're gonna we're.
Out. It's a big book. 600 pages.
And I should mention that it's published by or in publications.
Or in publications. And we're going to we're going
to add a link to the book in the description of the podcast.
Everyone could could get it. Absolutely.
And as a podcast, there's nothing personally, there's
nothing more important than taking your passions and
figuring out a way to grow from it and to serve a sham with it.
And you have basically spent your whole life doing that.
And that is something very admirable.
And I think that it is worthwhile for people to get the
book. It's easy to read in the step
from the standpoint that it's not long winded.
It has a concise and to the point.
The chapters flow very nicely. You could take 1015 minutes on a
Friday night read through the 222 essays per parsha and and
you come across things that are just valuable and interesting
and insightful. And I really hope and suggest
that people buy the book and we really appreciate you coming on.
Thank you so much for having me. This has been really lovely and
I'm I'm thrilled to hear that you enjoyed the book.
Really did it really did. Hope everyone buys it.
Thank you so much. Thank you too.