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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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We are joined by Rabbi Dr. Natan
Slifkin. 

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Ravis Slifkin is the director of
the Biblical Museum of Natural 

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History in Beit Shemesh, Israel.
Born in Manchester, England, he 

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spent many years of study at 
yeshivot in Israel. 

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He then taught Talmud and Jewish
philosophy at Orsamayor 

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institutions, where he received 
Rabbinic ordination. 

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Ravis Slifkin also has an MA in 
Jewish Studies from the Lander 

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Institute in Jerusalem, where he
graduated summa cum laude, and 

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he is currently pursuing a PhD 
in Jewish history at Bar Ilan 

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University, writing a 
dissertation on rabbinic 

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encounters with zoology in the 
19th century. 

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The rabbi also taught 
extensively on Judaism, science 

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and zoology at Yeshivat 
Levhatora, in Ramat Pehchemesh, 

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and at numerous synagogues 
worldwide. 

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He is also on many educational 
programs at zoos and Natural 

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History museums, as well as 
serving as Scholar in residence 

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on African Safaris Avis Slifkin 
has written numerous books on 

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the topic of Judaism and the 
natural sciences, and he has 

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also written extensively for the
Dafyomi Advancement Forum, as 

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well As for many newspapers, 
websites and journals. 

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He also maintains a popular 
blog, rationalistjudaism.com. 

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Avis Slifkin lives in Ramat Beit
Shemesh with his wife and five 

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children. 
Without further ado, Rabbis 

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Slifkin. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
It's an honor and pleasure to 

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have Rabbi Dr. Nathan Slifkin on
the podcast. 

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It's a long time coming. 
We are big fans. 

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And before we begin on the 
topic, which is your book, 

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Rationalism versus Mysticism, we
want the audience who maybe 

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don't know you to know a little 
bit about you. 

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If you could tell us about 
yourself a little bit. 

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Sure. 
Firstly, it's a pleasure to be 

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on the show. 
There's basically 2 aspects to 

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my work. 
Some people know me better for 

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one, some people for the other. 
By day. 

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I am the director of the 
Biblical Museum of Natural 

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History near Bet Shemesh Museum,
all about the animal world of 

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the Torah, featuring a 
combination of live and 

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taxidermy exhibits. 
And I've also written some books

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on that topic, such as The Torah
Encyclopedia of the Animal 

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Kingdom. 
But by Night, I've also known as

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the in some circles as a 
controversial figure for my 

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writings about conflicts between
terror and science leading to 

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rationalism versus mysticism. 
And my and my blog, 

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rationalistjudaism.com. 
Fascinating. 

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And the your book, The Challenge
of Creation, your other book to 

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me which is very eye opening and
remarkable that I feel like that

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doesn't get the attention 
deserves because it's, you know,

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it's an old book by now. 
But maybe you could also tell us

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about your experience with that,
you know, coming out with a book

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on evolution, right, That how 
that affected you and how that 

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you know what that experience 
was like? 

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Right. 
So I was always fascinated by 

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the natural world, you know, 
especially the animal Kingdom. 

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So when I started the Yeshiva 
many, many years ago, so I was 

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interested in in topics that 
came up relating to that. 

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So I was interested in dinosaurs
and how we reconcile that. 

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I was interested in the 
zoological phenomenon mentioned 

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in the Gemara and things that 
don't seem to be scientifically 

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true and what to how to make 
sense of those. 

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And gradually I was fortunate 
enough to meet some of the 

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people of Arya Carmel and others
who guided me in approach and 

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other approaches which I found 
very helpful and which I wanted 

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to share with us. 
So I wrote some books on these 

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topics which as you know, were 
were considered to be very 

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slightly controversial or 
absolutely heretical by two or 

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three or three dozen or so 
leading rabbinical authorities 

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in the FOR 80 world. 
So that led to the very 

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prominent and controversial ban 
on my books in 2000 and four 

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2005, where, you know, three 
dozen of any authorities 

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attested that my books are 
heretical. 

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And actually I prefer to. 
I like to refer to the ban that 

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is controversial rather than my 
books, because the truth is, my 

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books has already been out for a
few years by that point without 

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any fuss. 
But when they were banned, now 

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that was controversial. 
That's when a lot of people got 

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very upset. 
Right. 

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And you know I have read that 
book and many other books and 

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like you say there's your your 
style has always been a style of

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sticking to the mafortium, 
sticking to you know Rishonim, 

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sticking to you know what what 
what our great leaders and 

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rabbis of the past have always, 
you know have always put out and

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to and for them to ban the book.
In my eyes after reading the 

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books there's almost not even 
that much of your opinion in any

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of them. 
It's really just and this is 

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actually we're going to it's 
kind of a segue into the book 

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itself that we want to talk 
about today. 

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The book that we're, we're going
to talk about today, rationalism

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versus mysticism, is that I 
believe that's your latest book.

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Correct. 
Yeah. 

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And that's a book that really 
emerges. 

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I mean, the research for that 
book emerges out of me trying to

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understand the ban in my books. 
You know, it's when, when the 

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ban happened, it was very hard 
to understand. 

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You know, how could it be For 
the ideas, which for myself, for

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my own rubber name, for the 
people, you know, my community, 

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The things about books were A 
true and B not even especially 

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controversial now radical. 
And yet there's always some 

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ideas were to with whole other 
group of people, you know, so 

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false and a nonsense and 
absolutely heretical. 

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You know, how can there be such 
a gulf? 

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So a lot of the work I did for 
my, for my masters and for my 

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doctorate was trying to to 
understand that. 

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And that's when I really 
understood that really, you 

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know, beneath the issues of 
Torah and science, it was a 

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difference in the whole 
underlying worldview between the

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rationalist and the mystical 
perspective. 

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And once I discovered that, I'll
be able to see so many other 

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applications of that difference.
And that's how this book 

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emerged. 
That is so fascinating. 

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Awesome. 
OK, so let's get right into it, 

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and let's start with a very 
fascinating chapter. 

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The chapter of the Sages versus 
science. 

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The Sun's Path at Night, which 
is a lengthy chapter, so we 

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don't expect you to, you know, 
go through all of it. 

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But if you can give us a 
synopsis of that. 

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Chapter, Right. 
So that was an interesting topic

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in that if there was one big 
mistake I made in the whole 

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controversy of the over my 
books, it was not realizing how 

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crucial this one topic was to it
and and kind of forcing people 

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to address it. 
Because with the with the, with 

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my position that I quoted in the
books that as great as Khazal, 

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the sages were in their 
knowledge of Torah. 

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But when it comes to science, 
they just, you know, knew 

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whatever other people knew back 
then which was sometimes 

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mistaken. 
So I kind of presented that as, 

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you know, the view of just a few
small number of authorities who 

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said that, you know, explicitly 
Rambam, Rambam, Assad of some 

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sort of fall Hirsch, you know, 
and I presented it as being a 

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legitimate minority view, 
whereas my opponent slammed it 

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as being an illegitimate 
minority view. 

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And it was either they claimed 
that these authorities never 

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said any such thing or they said
it was, you know, something so 

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aberrant that it's fallen, you 
know, beyond the the purview of 

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what's acceptable. 
And juries thought today because

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it's just one of these weird 
aberrant views. 

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But with the sun's path at 
night. 

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What I discovered is that how 
normative this view is and the 

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discussion really centres around
us. 

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Discussion in the Gemara about 
where does the sun go at night? 

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And the Gemara presents a 
dispute between the sages of 

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Israel and the non Jewish 
astronomers where the non Jewish

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astronomers say that at night 
the sun goes on around the other

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side of the world, which is 
true. 

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Whereas the Jewish astronomers 
say that at night the sun 

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circles back and goes above the 
sky, that the sky is an opaque 

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Dome and at night the sun goes 
circles up behind the sky, which

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may sound very strange to us, 
but that was absolutely 

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normative in Babylonian 
cosmology. 

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And the Kamala continues to say 
that the Huda Hanasi realizes 

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that the non Jewish astronomers 
are the ones who are correct and

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he concedes that which is also 
very significant. 

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And now the the standard view 
you'll hear when people usually 

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try to avoid talking about the 
Kamara, when they do talk about 

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it, they say, oh, the Kamara is 
not really speaking about where 

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the sun goes at night. 
It's really talking about, you 

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know some deeper metaphysical 
phenomena. 

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When I looked into it 
thoroughly, what I found was 

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that among the was shown him 
right among the great medieval 

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within the core authorities. 
So every single one without 

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exception understood that this 
was a discussion about 

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astronomy. 
Nobody ever, nobody said it was 

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talking about some deeper 
metaphysical thing, nobody at 

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all. 
There was one of those showed 

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him about Beinu Tam. 
He said that that the that the 

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actually the Jewish astronomers,
the Khazal were actually 

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correct. 
He believed that they actually 

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couldn't prove their case. 
But the sun really does go 

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behind the sky at night because 
he still subscribed to the 

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Babylonian cosmology. 
But everyone agreed they were 

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talking about astronomy. 
There was no, there was no 

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different dispute about that. 
And whereas in the beginning of 

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the 16th century you started to 
have a few authorities who were 

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very uncomfortable. 
And I think the reason why I got

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very uncomfortable is that 16th 
century was a time of the 

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tremendous advances in 
astronomy, right with Galileo 

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and so on. 
And here were the stages of the 

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Talmud who were still stuck in 
the the Babylonian cosmology. 

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They weren't even up to the 
Ptolemaic cosmology. 

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So they provide, they started to
present different ways of 

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learning the Gemara, right. 
They have to terms actually mean

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something different. 
And then he got to the Malal who

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completely says that Khazal were
never talking about science, 

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they were always talking about, 
you know, metaphysical issues. 

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But still because the Gamara was
so clear and there was such a 

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strong tradition in the which 
showed him as how to interpret 

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it. 
So there's still many prominent 

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acronym, many prominent Levitic 
authorities who interpreted the 

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Gamara at face value. 
Yes, the stages of the Talmud 

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were mistaken about where the 
sun goes at night. 

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So that really, you know, cuts 
down to the core of this whole 

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issue about terror and science 
that you have something where 

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they were showing were perfectly
comfortable with it. 

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Some of the accurate were 
uncomfortable, others were not. 

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And but you see it there. 
You see it clearly there. 

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And so then in the polemico from
my book. 

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So some people just wanted to 
say, well, only in that case 

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were they wrong about science, 
because they're the Gemma 

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acknowledged it but but nowhere 
else. 

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But doesn't really doesn't make 
any sense because you know, if 

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they were, if they could be 
mistaken on that, then why can't

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they be mistaken about more 
obscure things? 

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And in that case, by the way, 
they even thought that they were

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able to bring terror proofs to 
their position, right? 

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That they and elsewhere they 
brought Sukim in an attempt to 

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support their position about the
sun going behind the sky at 

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night. 
So if even in that case they 

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could still be mistaken. 
And the other had Nasi was 

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himself was perfectly 
comfortable saying so. 

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He didn't feel his religious 
worldview was being threatened 

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by that, and none of them has 
shown him felt that their 

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religion was being threatened by
that. 

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So it's certainly a legitimate 
approach to take. 

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Yeah, it's this DAS Tor approach
today that people have where 

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everything is Masaura, right? 
Everything. 

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Whatever they said is is Rocha. 
Kodesh. 

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Exactly. 
That's. 

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Another thing they say, right, 
Sod Hashemi Reyov, right. 

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That was a concept that was 
thrown. 

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I had a lot of the time the 
controversy of my book Sod 

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Hashemi Reyov that, you know, 
the the, the Khazal have a 

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supernatural insight into 
things. 

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So with all these concepts that 
come up you have to look into 

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them properly and that's what I 
did with that and and it's 

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00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,840
amazing. 
You know, how many times does 

227
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,120
Sola Shimlaimov actually appear 
in Chasse? 

228
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,760
You know what what what's your 
guess? 

229
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,800
You know people will think it 
comes up here 20 * 30 * 40 

230
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,040
times. 
It appears three times, just 

231
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,320
three times. 
And even in those three 

232
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,360
occasions, it's just presented 
as a speculation that that one 

233
00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,560
of Kazal says something and 
there's a question, well, how 

234
00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:01,560
did he know it? 
And they present some 

235
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:03,840
possibilities, maybe he was told
it, whatever. 

236
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,640
And one possibility is, you 
know, maybe possibly he had 

237
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,040
supernatural insight, but it's, 
you know, it's only three times 

238
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,680
as a speculation. 
Whereas there's many case cases 

239
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,040
in the Gamal like this where 
it's explicit that they they 

240
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,720
didn't know something or or they
found something out through 

241
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,880
empirical investigation or 
potentially mistaken 

242
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,720
investigation. 
So you know, when you start 

243
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,880
looking into all these concepts 
from the sources all the way 

244
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,200
through, you realize that this, 
this mystical approach was not 

245
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,280
the approach that was 
traditionally taken. 

246
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:41,400
Even by the Rashonim who were 
not as rational as let's say the

247
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:42,360
Rambam. 
Yeah. 

248
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,600
Even if you go with like you 
know Ramban. 

249
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,080
Ramban. 
Yes, the absolutely. 

250
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:50,200
Camp within the Rashonim A lot 
of times that I'm realizing as I

251
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,520
go through these chapters in the
book is there also. 

252
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,360
Hold on a second I. 
Think we have a siren here. 

253
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,120
Oh. 
No, I'll still on. 

254
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,000
All OK. 
Yeah, all OK. 

255
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,080
So what I've been realizing is 
even the more mystical camp 

256
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,840
within there was shown him for 
the most part, the way they go 

257
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:17,120
about things is very rational, 
even even, you know, even though

258
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,520
they have their own, you know, 
whatever, you know what I'm 

259
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:21,280
saying, whether it's. 
Yeah. 

260
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,560
So Ramban, it was, well, you 
know, pointed out that the 

261
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,800
rainbow is appears, has been 
proven to be in a scientific 

262
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,920
phenomenon. 
Therefore, how do you understand

263
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,960
what's said about the rainbow 
after the flood and also the 

264
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,520
beginning of powership Matsura 
about the process of conception?

265
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,400
He says, you know, scientists 
have proved certain things about

266
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,520
this process and therefore we 
have to reevaluate our 

267
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,120
understanding of what the Torah 
means. 

268
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,720
Exactly. 
It's truly amazing that you both

269
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,000
do see it in the Talmud. 
You see it in the Rashonim, of 

270
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,920
course, you see it in the go. 
And they were all so science was

271
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,200
always so important to them and 
a part of how they view Judaism,

272
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,880
it it it informed their views, 
regardless what their views 

273
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,320
were. 
And we've come away from that 

274
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:07,720
today. 
You know something? 

275
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,480
There was a tremendous insecure.
There's reasons why we come away

276
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,880
from that. 
There was a lot more insecurity 

277
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,720
today. 
And the fact that science does, 

278
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,000
you know, pose more of a 
challenge to using today than it

279
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,680
used to. 
And in the modern world 

280
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,240
especially, I would say even 
more than science is, you know, 

281
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,400
modern society poses A 
tremendous challenge to Judaism.

282
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,360
And therefore, you know, people 
circle the wagons. 

283
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,040
All right. 
And let's also go into Ayan 

284
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,120
Hara, a fantastic chapter. 
Yes. 

285
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,160
You know, some of my research 
into these topics was the 

286
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,120
conclusions were very surprising
even for me. 

287
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,160
In other words, it was the the 
way that the rationalist 

288
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,880
mystical breakdown occurred was 
not always as expected. 

289
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,880
And Einhua was a kind of example
of that, that people think that 

290
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,160
the that the widespread 
traditional understanding of 

291
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,520
Einhua was that it means that 
when you look at something, you 

292
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,680
cause harm to it. 
When you look at something with 

293
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,160
negative intentions, you cause 
harm to it. 

294
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,240
And that was not the mystical 
approach. 

295
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,400
That was the rationalist 
approach because of a of a 

296
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,800
historic understanding of how 
vision works. 

297
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,840
It was how does vision work? 
How do we see things. 

298
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,280
So historically there was a 
dispute. 

299
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,360
The, the majority position was 
that the way vision works is 

300
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,400
that things come out of our eyes
like with a flashlight, right 

301
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,360
When you go in the dark with a 
flashlight, a light comes out of

302
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,720
the flashlight. 
You know it illuminates the area

303
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,280
around you, right, You a candle,
right? 

304
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,920
The light comes out of the 
candle and makes it possible to 

305
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,320
see what's around. 
So people are just visioning 

306
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,560
kind of the same way that 
something comes out of your 

307
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,880
eyes, right? 
I guess, you know, maybe similar

308
00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,840
to how bats use sonar, right? 
So vision is the same way. 

309
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,720
And if you have negative 
thoughts, negative energy could 

310
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,359
come out of your eyes. 
That was, that was the 

311
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,839
scientific position. 
Now Rambam who disagreed with 

312
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,839
that idea of Einhra, Rambam who 
saw Einhra as being just a 

313
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:19,240
jealousy, right, that wasn't 
because he was more scientific 

314
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:20,680
than everyone else. 
It's just because he had a 

315
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,280
different understanding of the 
science that he happened to 

316
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,280
follow this minority view. 
Vision is something absorbed by 

317
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,120
the eye. 
And therefore I know I can't 

318
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,400
possibly be a, you know, a 
scientific process of things 

319
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,680
coming out of the eye. 
So you were to be jealousy. 

320
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,840
But the ones who saw it as 
vision comes out of the eye that

321
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,160
they were not. 
Not being rationalist, they just

322
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,600
had a different understanding of
the science. 

323
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:42,600
Fascinating. 
Fascinating. 

324
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,800
And when we get into today, in 
the past few, 100 years, when I 

325
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,320
say today, how did Einhora, how 
is Hein horror view today? 

326
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,160
Right. 
So it's interesting to see how 

327
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,520
it developed, you know, header 
of Yosef Cairo, who was still 

328
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,240
going with the idea that it's 
negative energy coming out of 

329
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,440
the eye. 
And he discussed about whether 

330
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,600
we're wearing glasses. 
Wearing glasses may prevent 

331
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,440
Einhora because the glass blocks
it. 

332
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,400
That was just something very 
shocking for people to hear 

333
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,000
about today. 
But that was all based on the 

334
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,240
view that Einhora is actually, 
you know, it's a physical 

335
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,240
phenomenon that can be blocked 
with glasses. 

336
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,000
You talk about whether Windows 
also can block Einhora, but see,

337
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,600
nowadays people are would be 
uncomfortable even to know to 

338
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,880
hear that this is how the great 
rabbinical authorities view the 

339
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,800
topic. 
So nowadays people all all, you 

340
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:41,200
know, go with iron Haw as being 
some kind of jealousy. 

341
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:44,920
Yeah, jealousy kind of thing, 
but in the idea that you're 

342
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,520
going to put but in a different 
way than Rambam for Rambam. 

343
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,720
Physical consequence of 
jealousy. 

344
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,480
Is that what you think? 
Yeah, so though is for Rambam. 

345
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,080
The idea of stopping Iron Hawa 
was don't flaunt things for 

346
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,560
people to be jealous of you, 
because that would be bad for 

347
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,600
social relationships. 
Yes. 

348
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,920
Right, but the I would say most 
people today would prefer to 

349
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,240
have the idea that you know if 
you if you speak positively 

350
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,160
about something of your own, you
know that could cause negative, 

351
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,720
you know, metaphysical negative 
effects to result. 

352
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,440
I think one of the things that, 
you know, has gone really 

353
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,400
haywire today is that people are
using these segulote and, you 

354
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,120
know, magical amulets and so on 
and so forth to kind of deflect 

355
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,320
or avoid it. 
And that in itself has just 

356
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,400
taken on a life of its own that 
will become like an industry in 

357
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,240
itself. 
And I think it harms, it harms, 

358
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,240
you know, Judaism. 
People, people will see, like 

359
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,920
outsiders will look at us. 
They won't see us as a wise and 

360
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,840
understanding people, but look 
us, look at us as arcane and 

361
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,080
superstitious. 
And I think that you know, it 

362
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,760
doesn't do justice to the wisdom
of of Torah. 

363
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,000
I think that like the Rambam's 
approach to things is that why 

364
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,520
we call ourselves quote UN quote
Rambamis. 

365
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,680
It's not it's not an accurate 
term but it's really he 

366
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,560
symbolizes you know how we 
should think is that we should 

367
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,800
learn wisdom from everything, 
not just from from the Torah. 

368
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,640
But. 
And it's OK to say that the 

369
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,000
rabbis got things wrong as long 
as it's not in the realm of 

370
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,080
halacha. 
Halacha is Halacha and that's 

371
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,640
where the Rabbis. 
You know they have, they have 

372
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,320
jurisdiction, but when it comes 
to just any ideas about the 

373
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,960
world, it's fair game. 
Right. 

374
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,720
I do want to stress though, in 
my book about work in general, I

375
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,720
am not out to delegitimize 
mysticism. 

376
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,000
That is not my mission for two 
reasons. 

377
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,880
Number one, I think that 
rationalism is not a perfect 

378
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,720
system and not a fully worked 
out system. 

379
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,320
Still has many unanswered 
questions. 

380
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,000
But the main reason is that 
there's a reason why mysticism 

381
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,600
is more popular than 
rationalism, which is that for 

382
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,800
many people mysticism provides 
for a much more passionate, 

383
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,040
engaging form of Judaism, and 
one that's psychologically 

384
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,760
tremendously beneficial. 
So it's really a case of 

385
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,840
different Stokes strokes for 
different folks. 

386
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,960
All right. 
Some people are more suited to 

387
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,640
the mystical approach. 
Some people are more suited to 

388
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,920
the rationalist approach, where 
I see my mission as being 

389
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:15,200
restoring and retaining and 
developing the rationalist 

390
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,120
approach for those who are more 
attuned to it, as opposed to the

391
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:21,800
Shiva circles I went through 
where people didn't even imagine

392
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,760
that such a thing ever existed. 
Right. 

393
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:30,280
I think it's also the fact that 
missed more mystical styles of 

394
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,640
of Judaism, modes of Judaism. 
There it tends to be like a 

395
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,200
cookie cutter kind of thing 
where there's an answer for 

396
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,240
everything, even if the answer 
is unsatisfactory the most. 

397
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,280
But there is, there is a feeling
that, oh, everything has an 

398
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,160
answer, whereas, you know, there
it's I I think it's a more 

399
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,240
humbling to sometimes admit that
we don't know. 

400
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,440
Just like even the greatest 
prophet, Moshe Arabenu, you 

401
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,760
know, he couldn't see God's 
face. 

402
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,720
There's limitations to human 
understanding. 

403
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,720
So I find myself often pulled 
and pushed with regard to how 

404
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,760
strongly to be to oppose 
mysticism and that certainly, 

405
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,080
you know, difficult times and 
you know, these are extremely 

406
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,520
difficult times we're in right 
now. 

407
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,560
Mystical approaches are again 
tremendously helpful for people.

408
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,040
On the other hand, they also 
allow, you know, everything has 

409
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,680
its pros and cons. 
The rationalist approach has 

410
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,840
also has its own drawbacks and 
it can lead people away from 

411
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,160
Judaism. 
But the mystical approach is a 

412
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,560
particular drawback, is that it 
very much enables people to take

413
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,000
be taken advantage of by 
unscrupulous operators. 

414
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,200
And I see a lot of that, and 
it's very depressing. 

415
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,560
Yeah, exactly. 
It's it's it's it's hard to see 

416
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:46,000
people being taken advantage of 
and to be silent about it the 

417
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,560
the happy medium. 
I think where the best way is to

418
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:56,280
is to at least try to try to 
just I I think that we that it's

419
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,880
there is value in trying to have
people just just preaching to 

420
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,440
them to be able to you know 
think think on their own. 

421
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,040
You know, not to just, you know 
not be a like a yes to 

422
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,600
everything just to to practice 
critical thinking. 

423
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,480
And if something is too good to 
be true sometimes there's a 

424
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,760
reason you know and I think 
that's an important thing that 

425
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,080
you know for the mystical camp. 
I don't try personally to get 

426
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,720
into like you know the the nitty
gritty or technicalities and you

427
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,920
know even you know OK you know 
Cabella is not Cabella. 

428
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,800
But I do think that it's 
important and he mentioned it 

429
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,160
and you mentioned it that you 
know, people get taken advantage

430
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,560
of and we have to, we have to 
just a little bit push people to

431
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,320
think and be standing on their 
own 2 feet. 

432
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:44,000
I think that's very. 
And there's other cases where I 

433
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,800
would say it's not even 
necessarily people being taken 

434
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,760
advantage of, but people just 
making a basic mistake. 

435
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,000
And there was one topic I came 
on to through all this, which I 

436
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,040
discussed in the last chapter, 
is, is the idea of can you do 

437
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,400
mitzvos and then nominate the 
rewards for those mitzvos to go 

438
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,320
to other people? 
Like, for example, if someone's 

439
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,480
passed away, you know, can you 
say, OK, I'm going to do a 

440
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,080
mitzvah and the reward will be 
for the the summer of that Lily 

441
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:12,720
Nishmat, right. 
For the benefit of that person 

442
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,320
who's passed away or or for 
someone who's alive. 

443
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,920
Right. 
Can you say I'm going to do a 

444
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,200
mitzvah and the reward from my 
mitzvah will go to that person? 

445
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,600
So this is something that's 
considered completely normative 

446
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,440
in Judaism today, right? 
Completely completely normative.

447
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,920
And yet, when I started looking 
into it, it was amazing. 

448
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,960
If you see that classically, and
this is a case where you know 

449
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,960
there's aspects of mysticism 
that go back very long way. 

450
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:39,400
I know it's you can't talk about
Khazal being with Khazal, 

451
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,720
rationalist or Mystic. 
Khazal is not a person. 

452
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,680
Khazal was a lot of people over 
a long period and in different 

453
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,320
places. 
And some of Khazal were more 

454
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,840
rationalistically inclined, so 
were more mystically inclined. 

455
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,760
But this, this is something 
where if you look in the Gemara,

456
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,800
you know there's no basis for 
it, right? 

457
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,880
There's no basis. 
There's an idea that anything 

458
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,600
you do is a credit to your 
parents, right? 

459
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,040
There's a Kamara discussing how 
somebody who who understands 

460
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,160
that his parents are suffering 
in the afterlife. 

461
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,360
And he goes to one of Khazal and
says what can I do? 

462
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,600
And he and he's told that he has
to, you know, say Kaddish and so

463
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,960
on. 
But the point is it's things 

464
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,040
that only he can do, right, 
because he is their descendant. 

465
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,040
So depending on how their 
descendant turns out, you know, 

466
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,440
it can be a credit to them or or
otherwise. 

467
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,440
But you never see in classical 
Judaism the idea that you can do

468
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,240
a mitzvah and then just nominate
somebody else to receive the 

469
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,400
reward for that. 
And the first time that was 

470
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,920
discussed, one of the late 
Akronim, sorry, in the earlier 

471
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,480
Akronim, he says, of course not,
He says. 

472
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,120
It's just no mechanism, right? 
Everyone that gets we believe in

473
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:43,040
award and punishment. 
People get awarded and 

474
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,840
punishment according to their 
deeds. 

475
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,040
You can't just suddenly decide 
that, you know, pay some money 

476
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,480
or whatever, and then, you know 
you're going to nominate the 

477
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,440
reward for your mitzvah to go to
someone else. 

478
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,440
Right? 
And yet this is something that's

479
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,760
become very widespread, and I 
think there's two reasons why. 

480
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,880
Number one is there's a lot of 
money to be made from it, right?

481
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,040
There isn't. 
Why did I first get suspicious 

482
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,400
of this whole topic? 
Because unfortunately, somebody 

483
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,320
passed away in my family, and I 
wasn't sitting in shiver. 

484
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,800
Somebody else in my family was 
sitting in shiver. 

485
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,920
And I looked at, they were given
this book all about, you know, 

486
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,160
what can you do to help the 
person who's who's, who's passed

487
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,880
away? 
And the first thing it said, it 

488
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,240
said the best thing you can do 
is lend Torah. 

489
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,440
And there's. 
And if you don't know how to 

490
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,440
lend Torah to a high level, you 
can pay someone else to do it. 

491
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,440
And it said the second best 
thing you can do is give sadaqa.

492
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,480
And what's the best sadaqa you 
can do, pay someone to lend 

493
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,520
Torah. 
And I started getting, you know,

494
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,920
suspicious, you know, my Spidey 
scent started tingling. 

495
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,480
And I looked at who published 
the safer. 

496
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,440
And lo and behold, it was 
published by a Colonel that 

497
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,080
specializes in taking donations 
to learn in memory of loved 

498
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,880
ones. 
And that's what's started my 

499
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,760
deep dive in this whole thing, 
where I saw that there's 

500
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,920
traditionally no basis for it. 
But what's the temptation? 

501
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,280
You know, you can make money, 
right? 

502
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,520
No one's paying you to learn 
Tara. 

503
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,920
But you can get payment and say 
that, oh, you're learning Tara 

504
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,680
to benefit some other people. 
Then all of a sudden there's 

505
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,720
money to be made. 
And I think the other reason of 

506
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,080
the person giving the money, 
they want to feel that they're 

507
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,800
doing something right. 
You lost a loved one. 

508
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,080
You want to do something for 
them. 

509
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,560
Becoming a, you know, working on
yourself to become a a shining, 

510
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,960
you know testimony and and 
credit to them is not as easy as

511
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,040
as paying as as paying. 
Writing a check. 

512
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,880
So you write a check to smish or
whatever and say yes, it's you 

513
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,160
know, the money is this. 
The rewards for that person's 

514
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,320
mitzvah will benefit that 
person. 

515
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,040
So you get to feel good about 
yourself. 

516
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,960
So it's an easy way to feel that
you're helping someone 

517
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,200
spiritually. 
And I think that's the the 

518
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,120
temptation for it, even though, 
again, I'm a stress, there is no

519
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:46,960
basis in classical Judaism for 
this. 

520
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,960
And and unfortunately, I think I
see the same thing today with 

521
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,560
the war. 
You know, there's a terrible 

522
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,920
situation going on in Israel and
and there's we have, you know, 

523
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,880
we have 500,000 people in 
uniform right now doing real 

524
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,880
Monsieur at nefesh, right? 
Real genuine, Monsieur at Nefesh

525
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,880
And there's other people working
hard at a lower level but 

526
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,720
working to help them in various 
ways. 

527
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,480
You know supplies, helping 
families and so on. 

528
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,120
In fact, right now as I speak 
you know I'm speaking in my 

529
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:17,440
office at the museum. 
So in the museum we have 80 

530
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,800
evacuees from stay up right now 
who we have someone who 

531
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,080
sponsored them getting a tour of
the museum getting a break and 

532
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,680
you know giving some a bit of a 
respite more like that what 

533
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,440
they've been going through. 
But there's other people who 

534
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,400
think OK I want to help what can
I do? 

535
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,120
So, you know, I'm going to, I'm 
going to learn terror, and 

536
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:38,880
there's a host of the soldiers 
or I'm going to pay someone else

537
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,440
to learn terror, this host of 
the soldiers. 

538
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,920
And it's very nice to be 
thinking about the soldiers, but

539
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,560
these are not things that are 
going to help, right? 

540
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:51,800
Yeah that's a tough one for 
people to yeah handle right. 

541
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,320
And we're we're we're probably 
going to address it at some 

542
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,040
point with with another guest. 
But I actually wanted to discuss

543
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,800
even mysticism and and as a 
whole, because I think these 

544
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,920
phrases that we use, it's just 
for you know the limitation of 

545
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,280
language and the fact that we 
have to just kind of summarize 

546
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,640
things with words that we say 
rationalism, which is not 

547
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:17,240
entirely it's not an accurate 
description of of a rabbinic 

548
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,560
worldview, even the Rambam, 
because the Rambam itself was a 

549
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,640
Mystic right and depends. 
How you look. 

550
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:23,840
At it depends. 
It depends. 

551
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:24,880
How you? 
Your definite. 

552
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,360
We've had episodes. 
In. 

553
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,960
The, the active intellect, and 
so on. 

554
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,360
But right, right, right. 
But people will consider, you 

555
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,760
know, the Rambam, as many in his
in that camp will say, well, he 

556
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,720
was a mistake. 
And I think the problem with the

557
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,680
mysticism camp is really that 
anything kind of goes like we we

558
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,520
wanna kind of, we have to be 
careful in in terms of 

559
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,160
understanding what is mysticism.
Because there is definitely true

560
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,680
a true strand of mysticism 
that's always been there, like 

561
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,600
you mentioned. 
But then there's a lot of stuff 

562
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,000
that just attached itself over 
time and kind of. 

563
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,480
Concepts, right, It's a. 
It's a catch all word for catch 

564
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,200
all of. 
Things exactly so anyway, you 

565
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,200
wanted to. 
Our listeners have always asked 

566
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,520
us to talk about demons. 
It's a it's a topic which I 

567
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,280
think people don't have a lot of
knowledge about. 

568
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,080
I mean, it's just there's not a 
lot of people want to learn 

569
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,480
about, you know, the the Jewish 
approach to demons. 

570
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,680
And you see it in Tanakh, you 
see it in the Gomorrah, you see 

571
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,560
it in the Rishon. 
So can you talk to us about 

572
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:30,480
demons? 
Yeah. 

573
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,960
So naturally, this was another 
topic that was right at my 

574
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,080
street, which I did a lot of 
research again. 

575
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,440
Again, I was very surprised a 
lot of these topics. 

576
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,920
So there's so much scholarship 
out there. 

577
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,920
There's so many spines that have
been written, so much academic 

578
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,720
research. 
And it's amazing that it's all 

579
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,640
basic topics that have never 
been researched. 

580
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,200
It's just amazing, astonishing 
to me. 

581
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,120
So it has the only way of I and 
Hara, you know, all these 

582
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,600
things. 
Nobody had ever done serious, 

583
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,080
serious research. 
And I don't mean polemical 

584
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,520
research. 
There was, you know, you have 

585
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,120
people who will find authorities
that support their idea of how 

586
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,720
this topic should be understood.
But I'm talking about research, 

587
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,360
where you see the history, you 
know, the intellectual history 

588
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,960
of a topic and how different 
sources understood it. 

589
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,680
So demons was another word that 
I just couldn't believe it had 

590
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,560
never been done. 
So I did it. 

591
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,880
And again, the things I found 
were surprising. 

592
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,160
Firstly, I asked, I think it's 
fairly well known Rambam did 

593
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,200
deny the existence of demons, 
right? 

594
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,880
Rambam did not believe in 
demons. 

595
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,520
Not everyone could come to terms
with that, right? 

596
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,880
Because again, for many people, 
if you're embedded in a certain 

597
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,640
world, view a religious 
worldview that it's often very 

598
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,160
important for a person to 
believe that every single great 

599
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,720
rabbinic figure in the past also
shared the same worldview. 

600
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,400
And that's something that you'll
see both some Mystics do and 

601
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,520
some hyper rationalists do. 
Also you've got the Mystics who 

602
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,520
will believe say that every 
great Jew in the past was always

603
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,800
a Mystic and they'll do total 
revisionism and Rambam. 

604
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,080
And then you got some hyper 
rationalists who will say you 

605
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,640
know every great Jewish rabbinic
figure in the past was a was a 

606
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,400
rationalist and they'll do 
revisionism of the non 

607
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:02,880
rationalist rabbinic 
authorities. 

608
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,720
So there were those who, you 
know, refused to acknowledge 

609
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,160
that Rambam did not believe in 
demons, but clearly he didn't. 

610
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,240
But again, like with Ayn Hare, 
those who did believe in demons,

611
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,280
which was certainly the majority
of rabbinic authorities, it 

612
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,480
wasn't necessarily because they 
weren't rationalist. 

613
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,560
It was because for most of 
history, demons were a perfectly

614
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,280
reasonable thing to believe in. 
Because there's a lot of 

615
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,120
unexplained phenomenon in the 
world. 

616
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,160
And if you don't have the 
benefit of all the centuries of 

617
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,080
scientific discovery to explain 
why various phenomenon happen, 

618
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,720
what's wrong with it makes 
perfect sense to believe in 

619
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,120
demons. 
You know, Why not? 

620
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,680
There's all kinds of weird 
forces in the world, you know, 

621
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,800
there's magnetism. 
How do you explain magnetism? 

622
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,040
You know, for ASPA rash bar, he 
goes into the discussion of 

623
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,880
magnetism and he says, you know,
there's people who are, you 

624
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,960
know, rationalists and they 
deny, you know, the supernatural

625
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,080
kind of phenomenon. 
But look at look at magnetism, 

626
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,160
he says, All right, so nowadays 
we have an understanding of 

627
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,520
magnetism as being, you know, a 
scientific, you know, a 

628
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,400
naturalistic force. 
It's hard to, you know, we can't

629
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,240
see it, we can't feel it, but we
understand it in scientific 

630
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,760
terms. 
And we see magnetism as 

631
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,080
something completely different 
from demons. 

632
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,520
But you know, but centuries ago 
that difference was not, was not

633
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,480
clear, was not apparent. 
You know, there's certain we see

634
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,480
phenomenon that that occur which
are not physical. 

635
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,280
So why is it any more 
unreasonable to believe that 

636
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,920
when, you know, strange things 
happen in the world which they 

637
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,000
do, that it's that it's demons 
causing it. 

638
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,400
So again, this is a case where 
you can't break down those who 

639
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,040
do believe in demons and those 
who don't as being Mystics 

640
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,880
versus rationalists. 
Nowadays you could perhaps like 

641
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,600
people who still believe in 
demons. 

642
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:39,640
You can. 
You could say that they are 

643
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,040
Mystics rather than 
rationalists, but you can't 

644
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,680
categorize the historic rabbinic
authorities that way. 

645
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,200
And this is a theme throughout 
the book is that and and I I 

646
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,560
try, I kind of pointed it before
that, you see that, you know, 

647
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,720
when it comes to the Rashonim, 
right? 

648
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,760
Like they were almost all 
rational, leaning in the way 

649
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,480
they went about how how they 
went about things, right. 

650
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,520
We believe that there's the way.
Differences, right? 

651
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,600
Obviously those inspired were 
much more not scientifically 

652
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,760
knowledgeable than those in 
Ashkenaz. 

653
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,760
Plus those in Ashkenaz tended to
be literalists that you know all

654
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,280
the egaritas, all the strange 
things in the Gemara. 

655
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,040
There was an approach in in 
Ashkenazi used to understand all

656
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,560
those things literally, whereas 
in a spar they were much more 

657
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,960
open to non literal 
interpretations. 

658
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,360
Yes, but scientifically they 
kind of all had a scientific 

659
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,360
like the Ramban you were kind of
more. 

660
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,360
Yeah, they tended to be more 
everyone. 

661
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,480
Always show them tended to be 
more open to things. 

662
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:39,800
That were showed through. 
To them. 

663
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,800
Yeah, like with the Ramban. 
Ramban was a complicated figure 

664
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,480
cuz he was a Mystic, but he was 
Basin's fad, so that gave him a 

665
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,360
more rationalistic bent. 
Yeah, like for, for example, the

666
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,560
science of necromancy, right. 
It was a still, he still 

667
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,520
categorized it as a science 
because to him, that's what he 

668
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,040
observed. 
He he thought he was doing 

669
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:59,720
something. 
Yeah, yeah, So. 

670
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:03,600
So it's a it's very interesting.
So, OK, great. 

671
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,960
There's two other topics. 
They're fundamental, the nature 

672
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,440
of Torah and the function of 
mitzvah. 

673
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,640
As you would think that, you 
know, oh, the nature of Torah, 

674
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,200
the function of mitzvah, that 
should be such a given, right? 

675
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,520
Basically like, you know, you 
know what we spend all our day 

676
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,720
doing. 
But as your chapters show, it's 

677
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,000
very different today than how it
was and if you can break that 

678
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,000
down. 
Yeah, and again these are things

679
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,280
that were just so shocking and 
eye opening for me. 

680
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,280
You know, certain things that 
I've always understood from all 

681
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,680
my years in yeshiva and growing 
up as a from Jew. 

682
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,560
Certain things that I just 
thought were a total given and 

683
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,960
normative and Judaism cannot be 
any other way. 

684
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,840
And then you look at how many 
things are just not actually 

685
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,120
traditionally based and and see 
how they evolved. 

686
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,040
Let's start with with mitzvah. 
Mitzvah. 

687
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,440
What do mitzvah do? 
What's the purpose of mitzvah in

688
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,720
general? 
So Rambam says explicitly that 

689
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:06,080
all mitzvah serve one or more of
three possible functions. 

690
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,360
They they teach you ideas about 
Judaism, about Torah, they 

691
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,560
improve your character or they 
improve society. 

692
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,400
That is what all mitzvot do. 
With some, it's easier to 

693
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,720
understand how they do that. 
The the Mishpatim with others 

694
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,320
hook him. 
It's harder to understand how 

695
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:22,840
they do that. 
But that is what mitzvot do. 

696
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:26,080
Whereas according to the 
mystical approach, yes, Mizvolk 

697
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,840
do all those things, but that's 
a relatively minor aspect of 

698
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,400
what Mitzvolk do. 
The primary function of what 

699
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,880
Mitzvolk do is to manipulate 
various supernatural forces. 

700
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,200
All right. 
So in in the book I show various

701
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,520
different, you know, ways and 
that plays out, you know what is

702
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,360
Mizzouza? 
The rationalist views that 

703
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,880
Mizzouza is a reminder, a 
reminder of what's important in 

704
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,760
life, whereas the mystical view 
is that Mizzou's supernatural 

705
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,160
protection for the house washing
their hands in the morning, 

706
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,120
What's that about? 
According to the earliest we've 

707
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,880
shown who discussed it, the mix 
of washing your hands is 

708
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,200
psychological, to put yourself 
in the frame of mind of being 

709
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,960
the Cohen, starting his service 
in the base, in the base of 

710
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,680
Mikdash, and also physical 
hygiene. 

711
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,320
Whereas it goes to the mystical 
view, it's removing ayen hara, 

712
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,680
right? 
Removing supernaturally harmful 

713
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,640
forces. 
And we see that with many myths.

714
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,320
That's how it plays out that you
see different understandings of 

715
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,800
this mitzvah going back many, 
many, many centuries. 

716
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:21,520
Again, our goal is not to argue 
that one of you is right or one 

717
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,560
of you is wrong, but it's to 
show that there's different 

718
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,360
understandings of what mitzvah 
are all about. 

719
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,280
And then when it comes to Torah,
the mitzel learning Torah, there

720
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,400
you see that the biggest and 
most fundamental and difference 

721
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,520
of all with enormous 
ramifications, especially today,

722
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,200
What is the mitzvah of learning 
Torah all about? 

723
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,160
So again, according to the 
rationalist approach, and in 

724
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,360
this case, it's also the 
classical approach, learning 

725
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,760
Torah, you know, you're getting 
an understanding of Judaism and 

726
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,240
you're learning about how to 
become a better person, how to 

727
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:52,600
build a better society, right? 
You look at the Commission. 

728
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:59,560
It's all about building a just 
society comes along the mystical

729
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,720
approach and it says yes Tura 
does all that, but that's a 

730
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,720
relatively minor aspect of what 
the learning Tura is the the the

731
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:11,040
major aspect of learning Tura is
mystical, is creating positive 

732
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,480
spiritual energy in the world. 
And the one who is responsible 

733
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,200
for making that really penetrate
in in Litvish circles was Rufjan

734
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,880
Velozhin. 
Rufjan Velozhin who totally in 

735
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:29,120
his in his effort to combat 
Khashidim who were negating the 

736
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,720
importance of learning Torah. 
So he decided to play up Torah, 

737
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:35,360
the mystical side of it. 
He redefined learning Torah 

738
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,120
Ishma as being learning Torah 
for its own sake, for the 

739
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,520
positive spiritual energies that
result from it, which is not 

740
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,160
what Tara ishma historically 
meant. 

741
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,200
Historically, Tara Ishma was 
like everything. 

742
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,720
Like everything. 
That means lishma as opposed to 

743
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,240
shalolishma. 
Shaloishma is doing something 

744
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:55,240
for nefarious purposes, right? 
And Li Shma is doing something 

745
00:38:55,240 --> 00:39:00,440
for the correct purposes. 
But I'm Vlaschin he innovative 

746
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,920
the site of the entirely shma as
only Torah for its own sake. 

747
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,440
Just for the sake of learning 
Torah and all the spiritual 

748
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,920
energies that result from that. 
And then at the midst of 

749
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,360
learning Torah, which was always
a foundational importance in 

750
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,520
Judaism. 
But the reason why it was 

751
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,000
foundationally important was 
because you've got to know what 

752
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,680
to do in order to know how to do
it, in order to know what to do,

753
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,040
right? 
In other words, where the that 

754
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:29,040
has all discussed which is 
greater or learning or doing and

755
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,120
what the answer was, is that the
result of the debate was 

756
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,000
learning is greater because 
learning leads to doing. 

757
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,520
In other words, the goal is to 
do, but if you don't learn, 

758
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,800
you're not going to know or be 
motivated to do so. 

759
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,800
Learning takes precedence. 
Town The Terror Kenegar Coulomb,

760
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,400
which is a phrase I heard 
endlessly in yeshiva about how 

761
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,160
learning terror is more 
important than everything else 

762
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,440
put together. 
But what nobody realizes is that

763
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,320
that bricer of talmoteric and 
egged kulov, it's part of a 

764
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,920
larger bricer. 
And in the larger bricer, you 

765
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,560
know, after listening all these 
mitzvahs and saying talmotoric 

766
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,320
and egg and kulam, it then goes 
to a list of a various of sins 

767
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,200
and it says lashon hara can egg 
and kulop. 

768
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,760
Now no one's going to say that 
lashon hara is worse than murder

769
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,560
right now. 
Rhetorically, you know, speak 

770
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:18,880
that way, lass. 
So what does that pricer mean? 

771
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,320
It means there's certain 
foundational aspects in these 

772
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,880
mitzvahs on the various. 
And as Rambam says, clearly the 

773
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,120
foundational aspect in 
Talmoterra is that it teaches 

774
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,960
you what to do. 
But the focus is on always on 

775
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,400
the, you know, on living Torah, 
what you're going to be doing, 

776
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,360
not on the learning Ryan Veloz. 
And switch the focus back to the

777
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,360
learning. 
And then, you know, phrases like

778
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,000
Tamil, Turak and angry color 
were divorced of their original 

779
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,600
meaning. 
And you have this idea today. 

780
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,640
And how did that evolve today? 
That learning Torah has litvish 

781
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,600
circle, certainly has been 
boosted beyond whatever was in 

782
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,360
history, right? 
And this and this idea that that

783
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,040
and certainly the opposition to 
to being paid for Torah, which 

784
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,160
Rambani himself was very extreme
in that aspect. 

785
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,440
He didn't even want people to be
paid for teaching Torah. 

786
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:05,960
The normative approach of the 
history was certainly that being

787
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,760
paid for teaching Torah is fine,
but learning Torah not. 

788
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,200
But that's completely 
disappeared now, right? 

789
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,080
People now have no shame in 
being paid for learning Tower 

790
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,480
for their whole life. 
So I'm not, I'm not talking 

791
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,640
about people who are learning to
become rabbis, to become 

792
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,160
teachers, to become dionic. 
We're talking about somebody 

793
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,360
who's sitting in kind of, you 
know, plans to sit there for the

794
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,360
rest of his life and thinks it's
perfectly all right to be be 

795
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:28,160
paid. 
Why? 

796
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,400
Because he is mystically 
bringing positive energy into 

797
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,560
the world. 
He is contributing to society, 

798
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,600
contributing to the world. 
And these are, you know, these 

799
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,800
are mystical ideas. 
And do you find that there is, 

800
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,040
like now you're experiencing a, 
you know, terrible war that's 

801
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,240
going on now and I'm seeing a 
little like maybe they're just 

802
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,520
grassroots kind of things that 
are going on. 

803
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,280
But I'm starting to see slightly
that the Faradi world is kind of

804
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,480
shifting their view. 
But you. 

805
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,280
Know very, very little. 
People talk about, you know, 

806
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,400
3000 Koreans signed on to join 
the army. 

807
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,720
At the end it was 700. 
And I've got friends who are 

808
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:07,080
part of that and they they'll be
the first to say that they're 

809
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,520
not really part of the Khalidi 
world. 

810
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,520
You know, these are the people 
who are, you know, already past 

811
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,480
you, Shiva, already doing other 
things with their life. 

812
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,320
There has not been much of A 
change. 

813
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,760
What what I do see interesting 
though is again, this is, this 

814
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,000
is going to say a very, very 
painful topic. 

815
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,680
Painful topic for people in my 
community where, you know, in my

816
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,760
shul alone there's 80 young men 
and women who are in the army, 

817
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,800
80 just from my shul and you 
know, the amount of funerals, 

818
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,320
it's just, it's just appalling 
and horrific. 

819
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,400
And you have this whole entire 
community which is saying, no, 

820
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,920
we're exempt from that. 
That's not going to be us. 

821
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,840
So, you know, I understand, you 
know, the opposition to go into 

822
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,480
the army is that going to the 
army is a tremendous threat to 

823
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,360
their lifestyle. 
They don't feel a tremendous 

824
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,880
sense of civic responsibility 
because they're not a Zionist. 

825
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,760
But at the same time, I think 
now there's a certain 

826
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,320
understanding of guilt. 
So how do you get around that 

827
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,800
guilt? 
Nobody wants to feel that 

828
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,080
they're doing something wrong. 
So I think the mysticism has 

829
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,640
played in now and that's why you
see a lot more of this idea of 

830
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,480
Torah protecting and yes, 
willing and Torah and that's 

831
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,880
going to protect the nation 
which again is something with 

832
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,320
no. 
You look at the historical basis

833
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,800
for it and it's so it's so not 
there. 

834
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,160
You know it's historically you 
will find some sources in 

835
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,160
Kazelle about terror protecting,
but never that that is a 

836
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,240
substitute for actual action. 
You know it says that terror 

837
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,840
protects from illness too. 
You don't see how many towns 

838
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,200
saying we don't need hospitals, 
we don't need Kupat Khol in. 

839
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,640
It was never a replacement for 
the actual doing what you have 

840
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,160
to do. 
And why is it now becoming so 

841
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,720
popular? 
Because people feel guilty, I 

842
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:41,880
would say. 
I think that's the reason to 

843
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,000
rationalize to others outside of
their community. 

844
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,240
They want to rationalize to 
themselves, how is it that we're

845
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:48,600
not involved in this effort? 
So they'll come up with this 

846
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,640
mystical idea that, yes, 
learning Torah is what's really 

847
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,320
providing the protection. 
I want to just go back to 

848
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,080
something you said when we 
discussed the nature of Torah 

849
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:04,160
and the function of mitzvot. 
You were mentioning how the 

850
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:10,640
mystical approach when it when 
it wants to explain the purpose 

851
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,840
of Torah, purpose of mitzvah, it
agrees with the rational 

852
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,560
understanding, but that the 
rational understanding is a 

853
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,360
minor. 
Those are the words, right? 

854
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,560
The a minor point, but the 
larger point, right, is the 

855
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:31,760
metaphysical contribution or or 
OK, that to me, I remember 

856
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,920
about, I don't know, maybe 8 to 
10 years ago, this point was 

857
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,960
actually the hardest point for 
me to adjust with from my own 

858
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,240
personal journey. 
Why? 

859
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:49,600
Because when you are used to 
thinking that you're learning 

860
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,520
Torah or you're performing 
mitzvahs is making cosmic 

861
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,760
changes and you're used to 
understanding that like you know

862
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,080
there are things you know great 
things happening beyond what you

863
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,680
can even imagine and you know 
the whole world. 

864
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:13,000
It's very difficult to go from 
that to my mitzvah now is good 

865
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:18,320
for society and it's giving me a
good opinion and and I'm I'm 

866
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,880
just. 
Absolutely, absolutely. 

867
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,480
You expressed it very well. 
That is a seductive appeal of 

868
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,080
mysticism, and it's tremendously
empowering. 

869
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,800
And that's why it's ultimately, 
I recognize that rationalism is 

870
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,720
not for everyone, and mysticism 
is. 

871
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:33,600
It's much more, much more 
powerful and much more 

872
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,640
motivating for people. 
Because you're you're you're 

873
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,120
believing that everything you do
is invested with this tremendous

874
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,040
cosmic significance. 
It's literally appealing. 

875
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,200
Like it literally took me like a
year or two till I was able to 

876
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,240
to embrace it right in the way 
it's properly should be 

877
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:50,840
embraced. 
It's not an easy idea to come 

878
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:52,520
down, that's. 
Why haskachapatis, right? 

879
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,640
That's why you look at the show 
name and their views of 

880
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,280
haskachapatis. 
It was very, very limited. 

881
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,040
So why did it change to now that
everyone thinks that the 

882
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,240
slightest thing that happens is 
Ashkakabatis? 

883
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,200
Because it's much easier to live
life that way, right? 

884
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,800
I missed the bus not because I 
was late or because, you know 

885
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,080
there's a problem with the bus 
schedule, but because you know, 

886
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,680
Hashem wanted me to miss the bus
for grand cosmic reasons. 

887
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,200
Yes, yes, yes and. 
Then I think one of the issues 

888
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,760
with that also is that it takes 
away personal responsibility. 

889
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,600
Yes. 
Things like Einhara and all 

890
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,240
these things are the the the 
problem with it is that you no 

891
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,360
longer look inward and you start
thinking that everything that's 

892
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,160
going on, all the problems in 
the world are due to external 

893
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,360
factors. 
And everything that's going 

894
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,400
right in the world is due to my.
It's such an ego trip. 

895
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,000
Yeah, you know, Yeah. 
It is. 

896
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,400
There is aspects of that for 
sure and yet at the same time 

897
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,800
when people are suffering and 
going through hardship. 

898
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,480
This. 
Isn't a boat, which helps them 

899
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,480
so. 
So I wrestle with this. 

900
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,320
So to how much do we want to 
point out that it's not 

901
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,400
necessarily authentic Judaism? 
I don't know. 

902
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,440
It's very, very, very hard. 
It's interesting because the 

903
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,720
ROM, the Rambam also mentions 
that if someone wants to use an 

904
00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:05,120
app, he's against amulets. 
But if someone's domining and 

905
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,800
they request an amulet, you just
let him have like this is his 

906
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,160
like final final day and let him
have it. 

907
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,040
You'll comfort him going into 
the, you know, after life. 

908
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,440
But we were we just had a 
recently an episode on the let 

909
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,920
the letters between Shadal 
Shadal and Ravana Mosaic and 

910
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,520
something interesting that came 
up was that when Shadow's mother

911
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:29,520
was was very yeah, she was dying
his he was only 13 years old or 

912
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:30,040
so, right. 
Yeah. 

913
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,880
His his his father told him to 
say these magical his father's 

914
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,360
into mysticism say this magical 
formula and he was like, I don't

915
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,000
believe in this. 
I'm not going to say it. 

916
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,440
I think it's nonsensical. 
And as he matured and as he grew

917
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,840
up, he said I probably should 
have done it, you know, just to 

918
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,760
satisfy him. 
But right, right. 

919
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,720
It's just an interesting you. 
Know the the this this yeah like

920
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:57,800
it's we're to the wrestling with
what should we do with these 

921
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,920
things it's. 
It's like it's very. 

922
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:01,200
Challenging. 
It's very challenging. 

923
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,240
There's no clear right or wrong.
Answers about it. 

924
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:06,400
There's no clear right or wrong 
answers, and everything has its 

925
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,200
benefits and its drawbacks. 
Look, apparently with 

926
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,880
Schlemmer's Aman Orbach, you 
know, he was endorsed people 

927
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,200
going to to what's it called 
Tuamuka to them for a shooter, 

928
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,760
even though he knew that it was 
baseless, the unit of Venezuela 

929
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,000
isn't even there and there but 
he felt it's you know, people 

930
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,840
psychologically helped by it so 
endorse so we can go along with 

931
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,280
it. 
So yeah, maybe yes, maybe some 

932
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,440
people are taken advantage of or
or you know, they think that 

933
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,120
that replaces that. 
That's why, you know, people 

934
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,160
are, you know, people, singles, 
people looking to get married or

935
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:39,680
often tortured with the idea 
that they have to do this 

936
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,120
skiller. 
They're in the right segulas. 

937
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,560
Maybe that's why they're not 
married and then the right 

938
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:43,840
segulas. 
And I'm not sure if it's 

939
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,280
necessarily so psychologically 
helpful to wait to play along 

940
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:47,920
with that. 
I don't know. 

941
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,320
These are very tough calls to 
make. 

942
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:55,280
Yeah, they're tough calls to 
make and we appreciate so much 

943
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,960
that you came on and tackled 
these topics with us. 

944
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,480
We really also wanted to 
recommend people your website 

945
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,840
rationalistjudaism.com 'cause 
you get into a lot of these and 

946
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,040
the book Rationalism versus 
Mysticism, which we have over 

947
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,040
here. 
I think the 

948
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,680
rationalistjudaism.com you 
tackle a lot of like, like for 

949
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,840
example, just things like 
Swisselhala, right? 

950
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,400
And the kind of things that 
we're kind of discussing this 

951
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,360
right now where we have to also 
set limitations and boundaries 

952
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,040
because certain things just, you
know, they they take on a life 

953
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,000
of its own. 
And we have to figure out as as 

954
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,840
a community where we draw the 
line, where you know what is 

955
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,600
what is now, what is Judaism and
what is now something else. 

956
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,720
So I think your website actually
for me is has been a great 

957
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:46,520
resource because you you bring 
to light a lot of issues that 

958
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,240
are like today's issue, you 
know, the current event. 

959
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:50,840
Thank. 
You thank you. 

960
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,120
I also want to mention that 
people do want to buy the book. 

961
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,080
The best way for them to do so 
is from the museum website. 

962
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,640
Get the museum website. 
You can just you do a search 

963
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,200
online for the Biblical Museum 
of Natural History. 

964
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,160
The website is Biblical Natural 
history.org and in the store 

965
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,600
there, that's where you can buy 
my books and it's free shipping 

966
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,960
in the US. 
And and can you also tell people

967
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,240
briefly like what it is about 
your museum that they can 

968
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:18,120
actually enjoy and see that 
right. 

969
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:19,880
How is your? 
Museum doesn't get into any 

970
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,880
controversial topics. 
We have a very strict policy at 

971
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,200
the museum, in fact, of not 
getting into any controversial 

972
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,200
topics because we want the 
museum to be, you know, amenable

973
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:29,800
to all sectors of the 
population. 

974
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,520
And we do. 
We get everyone to get dati, 

975
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,680
secular, Khaidi, Hasidic, 
everybody. 

976
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,720
And it's learning about the 
animal world of the Torah, the 

977
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,720
the identity of the animals of 
the Torah, the symbolism, what 

978
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:43,240
they represent, the role they 
play in historic in Judaism and 

979
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,800
Jewish identity. 
We have holes dedicated to 

980
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,080
halacha, the Hall of Cashless, 
Hall of Chauffeurs, and we have 

981
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,440
a lot of whole dedicated to 
appreciating the wonders of 

982
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,240
creation. 
And the experience itself is 

983
00:50:55,240 --> 00:50:58,560
guided, very interactive. 
Like I said a lot, a lot of live

984
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,000
exotic animals too that you get 
to meet to handle. 

985
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,720
So it's educational and also a 
lot of fun. 

986
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,080
And your book, you had a book on
like mythical creatures? 

987
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,120
Sacred monsters, yeah. 
Museum websites. 

988
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,400
The Sacred Monsters is about 
mythical creatures in the in the

989
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,360
Gemara and Midwest and how to 
understand them. 

990
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,680
Unicorns, Dragons, Phoenix's 
mermaids, spontaneous 

991
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,560
generation, right. 
Salamanders coming from fire to 

992
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,920
all the Harry Potter creatures. 
Now these are all things that 

993
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,400
have been part of mythology for 
a long time and a lot of them 

994
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,560
appear in in various Jewish 
sources. 

995
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,760
So that book goes through 
different approaches on how to 

996
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:36,920
understand them. 
And last word on the book of the

997
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,040
topic today, rationalism versus 
mysticism. 

998
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,480
I just wanted the viewers to 
know this book is different than

999
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,240
any other rational versus 
mystical book for the very 

1000
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:49,720
reason that this is not talking 
from an ideological perspective.

1001
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:54,960
He's not coming at a ideological
rationalism versus mysticism. 

1002
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,920
But what Rabbi Slipkin has done 
here is essentially just in a 

1003
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,840
it's a development of these 
topics and ideas from the 

1004
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:06,920
Gomorrah to the Rishonim to the 
Hironim. 

1005
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:12,000
And so the reader himself is 
able to see the development of 

1006
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:17,200
these ideas across 1000 years, 
if not more, and to be able to 

1007
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,680
see how these ideas have 
developed in Judaism. 

1008
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,560
And the ideas speak for 
themselves from within the 

1009
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,200
sources. 
And I think that that's an 

1010
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,080
incredible achievement because I
have never seen a book like this

1011
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,400
before. 
So I highly recommend it. 

1012
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,840
And we thank you, Rabbi Slifkin,
for your contributions. 

1013
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:34,320
Thank you. 
Thank you very much. 

1014
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:35,600
It's a pleasure being on the 
show. 

1015
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,280
Thank you Shavotov and be safe. 
Bye. 

1016
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:40,000
Bye. 
Thank you. 

1017
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,320
Thank you very much. 
Bye, bye. 

1018
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,720
Hey guys, thanks so much for 
tuning into the Judaism 

1019
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:51,720
Demystified podcast. 
We really appreciate all your 

1020
00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:55,560
support and your feedback. 
If you want to help us grow the 

1021
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:57,600
podcast, keep spreading the 
word. 

1022
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,560
Share with your friends, family,
or whoever you think would be 

1023
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,320
interested. 
We also opened a Patreon so you 

1024
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,000
can become a patron. 
Contribute any small amount 

1025
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,680
you'd like, which would really 
help us grow the show. 

1026
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:17,040
Our Patreon is 
www.patreon.com/judaism. 

1027
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,840
Pretty easy to remember. 
Thank you again and we hope to 

1028
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,600
keep putting out great shows for
you guys. 

1029
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,320
Before we go, we want to thank 
our Patreon supporters by name. 

1030
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,680
Those are the supporters that 
are helping make this show 

1031
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,960
happen because frankly Benty and
I are full time workers who 

1032
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,200
don't really have so much time 
on our hands because we have 

1033
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,800
families, we have kids and it's 
just a passion project that got 

1034
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,160
way bigger than we expected. 
So we're dedicating more time to

1035
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,920
this and obviously our 
production value up until this 

1036
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,560
point hasn't been great 
considering that we film this in

1037
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,760
Benzie's basement using a green 
screen and a crappy little 

1038
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,200
microphone and not such great 
equipment to be honest, I'm sure

1039
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,920
you all realize that. 
So we are hoping to up our 

1040
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,200
quality and to get better 
equipment and part of that 

1041
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,120
process is going to be due to 
you guys, the listeners and 

1042
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,480
supporters. 
If you go to our Patreon page, 

1043
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:27,520
patreon.com/judaism, you will 
see all the different tiers of 

1044
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,520
ways you can help us out. 
So first of all, we want to 

1045
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,960
thank our super patron Jordan 
Carmeli, our platinum patron 

1046
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,680
Craig Gordon, our Gold patrons 
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1047
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:44,160
Cohen, Travis Kruger, Vasily 
Volkov, Silver patrons, Ellen 

1048
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,600
Fleischer, Daniel Maximov, Rabbi
Penny Rosenthal, and Jeffrey 

1049
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,960
Wasserman. 
Thank you all for supporting the

1050
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,720
show and we hope you guys enjoy.