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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you Rabbi Beasley for 

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joining the Judaism Demystified 
podcast. 

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Can you share a bit about your 
background and what inspired you

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to write Joel Omadia Mika Facing
the Storm as part of the 

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esteemed Magid Studies on Tanakh
series? 

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So this is my second book in the
Maggie series. 

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And first of all, thank you very
much for having me. 

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I enjoyed listening to the 
podcast and interacting with the

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two of you. 
I'm the Tanakh coordinator at Le

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Vittoro, which means I do most 
of the Tanakh classes there and 

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plan the curriculum. 
What are the goals for what 

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every? 
What should every yeshiva 

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student know about Tanakh? 
And my own personal background 

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is both literally and 
figuratively rather unorthodox. 

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So I grew up in a small town in 
Canada, very much boondocks at 

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the time. 
Now it's just been subsumed by 

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the Greater Toronto Air 
Authority, but it used to be a 

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very small town with and 
eventually made my way to the 

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Jewish day school. 
The community of Academy of 

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Toronto went to Yeshiva 
University and I had the fortune

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or misfortune of getting put 
into a very bad Gamara share. 

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I don't know if you've ever had 
that experience. 

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And my choice was that OK, I 
can't, it's not. 

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This is not working and that's 
fairness. 

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I don't want to say who or when,
but let me go to these one of 

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the other programs and then I 
just said, OK, I can major and 

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start taking Tanaka. 
I'll take I took a Gamar's year,

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but I took seven classes of 
Tanaka weekly and that just 

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opened my eyes to a brand new, 
brand new. 

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You know, this is a this is a, 
you know, everybody's just take 

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a couple courses graduate. 
But Tanaka became a love and a 

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passion and in 93, my wife and I
made aliyah to Mivasarit to the 

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merits call and I started 
teaching in Shari Mivasarit as 

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well for a bit in the afternoons
doing Tanakh and slowly became 

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exposed to what you call the 
Gush Tanakh method. 

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At that time, he was only ever a
lead tag online, just sharing 

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his little unformatted word 
documents. 

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And you tell you, but you start 
to appreciate the beauty of 

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seeing a structure, a message 
that comes out of the structure.

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My wife had her own connection 
with Gush. 

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She had worked as a volunteer in
the late in mid 80s and she, her

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goal was not to make it out 
Israel. 

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Her goal is to move to the Gush.
So in 96, we moved to the Gush 

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and I found myself forever a 
league tag, 2 houses down the 

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street and the yeshiva across 
the street and all these 

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wonderful thinkers. 
And they've helped me develop my

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thinking and where I agree, 
where I agree, where I disagree.

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But this became really my 
passion for the past 30 years. 

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Presently I'm teaching in 
Laboratory Tanakh. 

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When it comes to the trasar, my 
kids have ordered me a hat that 

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I was supposed to wear today, 
didn't arrive yet with a nice 

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big mega hat. 
Make trasar great again. 

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That's become my motto. 
I've got this. 

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My first work actually was the 
Tor me Etzion series. 

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The this was actually I had 
spent mentioned to Rabbi Reuben 

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Ziegler, who is now the head of 
Maggie Publishing, that what we 

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need is a commentary on the 
Tanakh using all the things that

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have been written by Hart Zion, 
his teachers, his affiliates, 

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and he thought it was an 
interesting idea. 

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He went to Rabbit BIC and we 
hashed out this have to 

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introduce the world to what 
Gushtunach is in the Tormention 

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series. 
The I don't know if you 

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reviewers have it. 
I just have a copy here. 

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The famous blue binding essays 4
or five essays in every partial 

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describe, you know, approaching 
the Torah portion from a what 

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would be the Gush view, you 
know, Gush Thinker's gush 

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approach and trying to 
demonstrate how this works in 

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the meantimes. 
I was working at the time I was 

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finished my masters in Barilan 
and Tanaka and I was working 

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towards a doctorate. 
We're trying to do the full 2 

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full time jobs, which really 
didn't work out well as far as 

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the. 
But I was looking for a topic 

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and I the advice I got was go to
the library and see which books 

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have the smallest amount of 
writers on the shelf. 

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So you're not competing with 
anybody. 

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And all of a sudden you've got 
all, you know, full bookcases 

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and Isaiah and your Miao and 
your Heskel. 

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And then you get to Treasar and 
Treasar, you'll have two shelves

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full. 
Everybody loves Hoshea. 

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Hoshea is a very exciting novel,
almost social justice. 

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Let justice roll down like a 
mighty St. 

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These, you know, these are 
exciting. 

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And then you get this one shelf 
with Mika had this much and 

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Dachem had this much. 
And I said, that's where I'm 

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going to focus. 
And from there I'd be threw 

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myself into the smaller and less
study books of the Tray Sr. 

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And when Robert Ziegler gave me 
the opportunity first to write 

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about Nachim Kabaku and 
Stefania, I jumped at it and 

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worked through it. 
And it was fun when you're only 

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working with four or five books 
in. 

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I'll just give Nachim his 
example on the Bar Ilan shelf. 

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This is a university academic 
shelf. 

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There are only 5 books on Nacham
and two of which were by 

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feminist scholars who were using
their books to vent about 

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Nacham's portrayal of Ninvay as 
a woman who is a loose woman who

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is going to be humiliated. 
Chapter 3 of Nacham describes 

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that ninvea will be open like a 
prostitute skirt. 

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You know, it's a very powerful 
image and it's also very 

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degrading to to women. 
I understand that two books were

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written by Catholic scholars who
were very upset that Nafam Zinda

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Tanakh because God is supposed 
to be love and what sort of 

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loving God would allow the 
destruction of a city, etcetera,

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etcetera. 
And of course, the only literary

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read was a feminist Catholic nun
who had written this great 

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literary read. 
So I was, there's really 

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nothing, you know, combining 
both of the of the world of the 

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things that I was complaining 
about. 

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But she actually had read the 
text. 

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And this is, and it's very 
lonely because if I what are you

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working on Nahum? 
Nobody had anything to 

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contribute. 
It was very depressing. 

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And these are books that don't 
appear in the liturgy. 

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Nahum is actually a Haftorah in 
the Triennial cycle. 

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I'll let you guess, it's a book 
about vengeance. 

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So what partial would go? 
Would be great to put Nakam's 

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haftar in if you had to pick up 
a partial said I want a haftar 

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about vengeance. 
We don't use the word vengeance 

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too much in our religious world.
I. 

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Think a question is a great 
question. 

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If you had to. 
So I'll I'll put you over your 

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misery. 
Shimon and Levy going into Yeah,

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OK, fine. 
And in the original New Year 

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cycle? 
You realize how simple it was, 

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but you can't get it when 
you're. 

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Asking nobody thinks. 
Like asking a comedian to tell a

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joke on the spot, you know? 
But we don't think that. 

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But that in itself is a 
commentary how they view the 

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actions of Shimon and Levy. 
Yeah, which is very interesting.

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You know, they weren't bothered 
by the sense, oh, vengeance is 

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bad, although it describes El 
Nokem Venota God, you know, it's

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a play on the 13 meter of 
Rakamim. 

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Nacham. 
God is vengeful. 

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God holds grudges. 
God is coming after you. 

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Very different view of the God 
that we teach. 

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And Nacham doesn't make it into 
the liturgy. 

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And now the second book, the 
first book was released actually

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beginning of January. 
And I was fortunate to get the 

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copy. 
I was visiting my mother, my 

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mother, husband at time was 
sick. 

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We'd come to visit him in North 
America. 

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And we've got a copy of the 
book, Went back to London, went 

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to the British Museum. 
For those who don't know, the 

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British Museum contains Ninvae. 
In one of the rooms you can find

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the throne room of Santero 
himself. 

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So I got to read the book in the
read Nachum in the San Harris 

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throne room. 
To me, that was a very what is a

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wonderful closing of the circle.
Amazing. 

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And then COVID hit. 
So the book sort of fell off the

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shelves as with everything else.
So the new book has come out yo 

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Ovadia and Mika and it's got a 
nice reception and very 

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appreciative and hopefully it 
adds to the discussion as you, 

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Ben, I think you mentioned you 
went to Shiran Ovadia today or? 

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Yeah, Yes, exactly. 
Yeah, we just, we just started. 

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Reading, I've tried to limit it 
to 60 pages, which some people 

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say, you know, how do you write 
60 pages on a 21 verse book? 

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But we'll talk about that when 
we get to the body, of course. 

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Well, first of all, when you 
mentioned earlier that it was 

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like a kind of an idea that you 
came up with a we should put 

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this torment CEO and out into 
the world, teach the, you know, 

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the method to the world. 
I was just like, that must have 

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been, you know, first of all, 
this is the best decision 

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obviously you've all made 
because right now we see it's 

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extremely popular, all these the
Magid series is extremely 

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popular. 
You see it in all those farm 

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stores. 
It's all over the place and, and

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just, it's such an amazing 
phenomenon. 

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But I, I want to ask you 
personally, what you know, you 

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studied in college and then you 
ended up in in the goosh, but 

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was there like a moment where 
you just like you learn this and

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you're like blown away? 
Was it love at first sight or 

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was it something that like you 
struggled with at first? 

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Like what is this? 
Or was it something that like 

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was Oh my gosh, this is 
unbelievable. 

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Like what was your first 
reaction to to the method? 

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I'm going to I have a close 
friend of mine, Rabbi Michael 

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Citrone. 
He's the director Leyva Torah. 

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And several years ago he wasn't 
feeling well and I bought him a 

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book. 
I he said I need something new 

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to read on parsha and I brought 
him out Khan and Salmon's first 

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set and he said something very 
interesting. 

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He read it. 
He'd never seen this style 

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before. 
He's always used as a 

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traditional open up the Mikro 
Kadolo. 

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What does what Nahama did best? 
You know, when we talk about, 

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you know, we always have to talk
about what came before to 

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appreciate the revolutionary 
nature. 

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The traditional approach is to 
open a possible read a verse, 

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read the commentaries. 
And his response was, this is 

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such a democratic approach, 
meaning I don't need to go 

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through layers and centuries of 
interpretation to understand 

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what the verse is doing, what 
the text is doing. 

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I just have to read the text. 
Of course, that doesn't mean I 

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could he could write or I could 
write a book like Ralph Sammons 

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after you had the after one read
of the chapter, But you can 

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start to see that's an approach 
I can apply that was that's an 

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approach that's very accessible.
And when you tell students what 

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is the keyword, for example, one
of the classic literary tools 

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interesting first appear and 
this becomes one of these little

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great questions. 
As a side note, the first one to

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use the light Fort. 
The word was Bouburn 

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Rosenstweig. 
But if you ask a Raviol, But no,

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this is obviously what Khazal 
meant when they were going 

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through the text of many of the 
gusher. 

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Baim are very, very adamant what
we're doing is not anything 

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revolutionary. 
There's a stream. 

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We're just applying traditional 
Madrassic tools to the text and 

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just developing them further. 
Whereas I like to say those of 

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us who are exposed, who more 
exposed. 

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Raviol hasn't studied academic, 
literary, biblical criticism, 

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and that's not to his detriment 
at all. 

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Those of us who have studied it 
rise. 

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What about this has been this 
wasn't found elsewhere at least 

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applied elsewhere as a wait for 
arriving at the shot of attacks 

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and but it still wasn't one 
thing that I read. 

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I you know, I spent a year 
reading Rabbi Leap Tag, who 

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became for many people the first
voice of the gush methodology OK

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way back in the 90s. 
And then slowly the virtual 

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00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,880
based measures started to make 
it more accessible and listening

225
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,040
to, for several years, I sat to 
her next to Rabbi Jonas and 

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00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,160
Grossman and shul until I 
realized that it was great 

227
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,640
discussions, but I shouldn't be 
having those discussions and 

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00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,200
shul. 
So I had to move for I had to 

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00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,280
move for I put myself literally 
in the seat right in front of 

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00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,480
Rabbi Ramon because I couldn't 
keep talking in shul. 

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00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,400
I had to. 
It was a Rosh Hashanah decision.

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00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,600
I have to stop talking in shul. 
And even if we're talking about,

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00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,520
you know, different 
methodologies, you can't really 

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00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,400
do that in the middle of 
Shwonas, right? 

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00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:55,240
So it's still very tempting. 
I just want to so this go 

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00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,600
please. 
No, no, you were saying how you 

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00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,600
don't need to have like the 
gamut of traditional, like the 

238
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:06,600
traditional commentaries in 
order to, to get into this 

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00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,720
method. 
You it's, it's very text basic 

240
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,160
and you can just dive right in 
as long as you're faithful to 

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00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,600
the text. 
This, my father, he, he grew up 

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00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,240
without, he never learned to me 
because he didn't have that when

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00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,240
he was younger. 
He went to a regular Tikhon in 

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00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,280
Israel and he learned Tanakh, 
just Tanakh. 

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00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,840
You know what I mean? 
He knew Rashi a little bit, 

246
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,040
never knew exactly what to do 
with Rashi really. 

247
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,480
But it meaning he, he didn't 
because Rashi would sometimes 

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00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,080
say things that would for him. 
It wasn't, he didn't know 

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00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,280
exactly where to go with some of
that stuff, but he knew, he 

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00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,400
knows Tanakh very well. 
He learned all of Tanakh and he 

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00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,080
knew, he knows it fluently. 
And then I introduced him during

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00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,480
COVID actually, because there 
was a lot of time and, you know,

253
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,360
and I started taking walks with 
my. 

254
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:54,960
Are we starting? 
Yeah. 

255
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,280
Are we starting to get? 
Oh, I wish we were back in 

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00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:57,960
COVID. 
I was. 

257
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,040
I was. 
No, no, no, sure, you know, but 

258
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,640
but we, I, we, we used to take 
walks together. 

259
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,160
Maybe I shouldn't have said 
that, but yeah, we were taking 

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00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,920
walks together. 
I, I, I, it's, it's understood. 

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00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,400
6 feet apart. 
Masks 6 feet. 

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00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,560
Of a mask and I was I was 
basically going through term 

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00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,280
etzion. 
We're going through different 

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00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,480
things. 
There was there's different 

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00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:19,400
books right now off the top of 
my head. 

266
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,440
I don't remember I was going 
through it. 

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00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,680
My dad got varianted. 
He loved it today and I'm not 

268
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,600
exaggerating. 
He like like is on a hunt for 

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00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,920
any possible he he's finished 
everything from Riako Madonna on

270
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,280
YouTube, anything from a from a 
Ilhant Sagio bin noon, Aman 

271
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:40,920
Bazak. 
He goes through it all. 

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00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,320
And when you said that, that's 
exactly the point. 

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00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,240
Because my dad, even though he 
doesn't have all the traditional

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00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,480
knowledge, the very fact that he
knows Tanakh well, he's able to 

275
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,440
just dive into this and fully 
appreciate it because it it can,

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00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,640
he can he can jump right in. 
You get what I'm saying? 

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00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:03,560
I'm just trying to bounce off 
what you said, how you know but.

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00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,520
We realize this is perhaps one 
of the critiques of the method, 

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00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:07,680
right? 
And this is precisely the 

280
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,800
critique. 
Although I would also say. 

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00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,640
I'm worried, I'm worried we're 
creating a bunch of Amma artsim 

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00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:18,080
who don't know rambans who don't
know Spornos on one hand. 

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00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:25,560
And I would say that the once we
skip Khazal, the whole 

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00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,840
discussion of Tanakhba Gove 9. 
How do I approach the biblical 

285
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,560
characters you mentioned 
earlier? 

286
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,320
Like who is Ovadia? 
Who is Asaf in the text? 

287
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,920
In the biblical text, Asaf's not
such a bad guy. 

288
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,080
He's not great. 
He marries 2 wives for Kanani in

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00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,480
Seifer Breishi. 
That's not a good thing. 

290
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,280
He then leaves the land. 
The two things that they're the 

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00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,480
two, you know, the two-part, 
we'll give a little 10 second 

292
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,160
background. 
There are two Brits that Hashem 

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00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,440
makes with Avrah, 1 is Milad, 1 
is Britta Arets. 

294
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,800
And the two things that Asaf 
does wrong is he violates Bree 

295
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,240
Mila by Marin Kananem and he 
violates some retards by 

296
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,960
willingly leaving the land in 
chapter 36. 

297
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,200
So he's not a he's not a hero. 
He but he's not the bad guy that

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00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,880
has all make him out to be Who 
when he's coming back and he's 

299
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,880
tired, he's tired because he's 
murdering and raping and 

300
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,359
blaspheming and you know, and 
all these and you wonder where 

301
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,960
that Madras comes from. 
But on the other hand, then it 

302
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,920
becomes the humanization of the 
biblical characters becomes the 

303
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,400
challenging point for those who 
view biblical characters as a 

304
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,880
well what where's the role model
then? 

305
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,520
And is that balance that, you 
know, the democratic nature is 

306
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,760
precisely what leads to the 
challenges that the methodology 

307
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,520
faces? 
Correct. 

308
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,200
I would say, though, that most 
of the time in most of the 

309
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,280
writings, Ghazal is mentioned 
throughout the Ghosh works, 

310
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,280
commentaries are constantly, 
constantly analyzed. 

311
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,400
It's not like it's completely 
left alone. 

312
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:07,360
Yeah, it's not. 
That's not. 

313
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,160
Yeah, but, but in another way 
also. 

314
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,800
I think that through the Ghosh, 
and I would like for you to 

315
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,840
elaborate on how you understand 
this. 

316
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,320
But for me, I think that you can
also, we can also come from a 

317
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,480
from the opposite direction. 
When you jump into Ghazal 

318
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,640
without any pretext, without 
any, when you just jump into it 

319
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,120
and it becomes, let's say just 
everything is taken literally or

320
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:33,720
face value and there's no OMEC 
into understanding because all 

321
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,240
that also is a problem. 
Though that's the Rambam in the 

322
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,280
beginning of. 
Right. 

323
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,640
So it's a couple. 
Of the right, you know, the 

324
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,160
first group, the Hakata Miskina,
I'm not a next one in Ramapira 

325
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,960
Khelek. 
The rabbi quoted it yesterday 

326
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,800
and he handed us or she said 
just read it. 

327
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,440
OK, that say that they are being
the Roman Khazal by taking them 

328
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,840
literally, even their 
mashbilotam, you know, by look 

329
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,040
at how foolish we appear because
we take Khazal literally. 

330
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,840
You know, it's the it's such 
beautiful wording worth looking 

331
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,080
up. 
But he talks about the first 

332
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,960
group of people don't understand
how to approach Khazal. 

333
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,600
There are people who take Khazal
literally and say it's 

334
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:12,760
ridiculous. 
And there are people who take 

335
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,280
Khazal literally and say we 
can't question this is obviously

336
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,560
what happens and that's not what
so there, I guess. 

337
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,560
But I think the what's different
between, say, when a gush person

338
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,960
approaches Tanakh, he's not 
looking at a Mikro Gadillo 

339
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,160
first. 
Correct. 

340
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:29,880
Yes. 
And that makes a difference. 

341
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:31,720
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

342
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,840
That that's enables him to find 
patterns, structures, repeating 

343
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,640
words. 
You know, I just opened up for 

344
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,920
fun. 
I wanted to, you know, just have

345
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,840
the Mikro Gadillo, the first 
verse of Yoshua here. 

346
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,480
There's 2 lines here and 
everything else is commentary. 

347
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,640
You're not going to see what the
repeating word in Yeshua 1 is. 

348
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,160
You know the 1st chapter of 
Yeshua is. 

349
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,480
You're not going to see the 
patterns and how the text is 

350
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,840
structured if you're only 
reading one sentence at a time 

351
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,200
and interrupting it for a page. 
2 pages of commentary. 

352
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,720
On the other hand, simply solely
reading a Tanakh is going to 

353
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,080
lead to the opposite problem. 
So you have to finding which 

354
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:18,200
where do I go first is the. 
Is the that's the question, what

355
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,400
book am I using? 
And whoever controls the books 

356
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,560
I'm using. 
There's an interesting article 

357
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,480
in tradition when talking about 
the Torah Haim that was put out 

358
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,920
by Musharraf book which 
Mufarshim go on the page. 

359
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,440
All of a sudden if I lose the 
Cleocarne, I lose the lose your 

360
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,800
Haim. 
What have I lost, What have I 

361
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,920
gained, and what does that say 
about what I understand the 

362
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:47,320
message of Tanakh to be so? 
So I want to give our audience a

363
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,920
little inside information, how 
we met. 

364
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,240
You reached out to us. 
And before we get into your 

365
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,960
book, because that's going to be
the second part of this podcast,

366
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,320
we wanted to just tell everybody
how we met. 

367
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,320
You emailed us after listening 
to our episode with JJ Kimchi on

368
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,520
the Gush Tanakh Method. 
And while you expressed that you

369
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,800
enjoyed the discussion, you 
wanted to respond to some of his

370
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,480
positions. 
And could you first tell our 

371
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,960
audience who maybe didn't listen
to that episode or are not 

372
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,680
familiar, what exactly is the 
Gushanachh method? 

373
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,360
OK, so let's start with an 
example. 

374
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,760
OK, I'm going to start with a 
story that begins that I think 

375
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,040
most people I hope are familiar 
with, and that's the story of 

376
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:37,680
the spies going to Yeshua Bet is
the spies going to Rakov in 

377
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:44,680
Yarikov. 
So you can read that text and 

378
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,960
look for OK, where do the what? 
Why are they going here and what

379
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,960
is happening at each stage. 
And if you go line by line, 

380
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,080
commentator, commentator, you'll
get a picture of a story. 

381
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:02,280
The gush method would look and 
say, OK, what words repeat 

382
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,760
themselves? 
Not too many here. 

383
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,440
But then I say where have I seen
these verses before? 

384
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,000
OK, so on one hand it's 
democratic, but obviously if you

385
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:16,280
have a sense of the more it's 
not that you have under your 

386
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,040
belt, the easier it is to make 
these connections and parallels.

387
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:27,280
So Rahaf's speech is lifted word
for word out of Devar in this 

388
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,320
last last week's parsha and this
week's parsha where she talks 

389
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,040
with the greatness of God, 
Beshmaim Alvaris Mitakhat, you 

390
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,520
know, very flowery words for a 
13th century prostitute in 

391
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,120
Jericho. 
OK, it's A and you and that. 

392
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,880
I'll leave that as a separate 
question. 

393
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,160
And then you say, where have I 
seen this story before? 

394
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,560
I'm I'm going to. 
Have with Haftarah so. 

395
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,560
Mulberry immediately jumps and 
says this is the Haftarah for 

396
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,560
Bishalaka sending spies land of 
Israel and he does actually 

397
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,840
begins. 
This is why, you know, you can 

398
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,880
safely say this approach is done
by others. 

399
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,080
Here's what Moshe did and here's
what Yoshua did. 

400
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,440
And here are the five 
differences. 

401
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,160
Yoshua doesn't tell the entire 
people. 

402
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,880
He doesn't send hands of the 
nation. 

403
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,040
They report to him directly. 
They don't report to the entire 

404
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,520
people. 
I would add one final caveat. 

405
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,960
Moshe's spies were great spies. 
They got all the information 

406
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,240
they needed. 
Their conclusion was wrong. 

407
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,880
Wrath of spies are Keystone 
cops. 

408
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,280
They're bumbling. 
They're nearly caught. 

409
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,560
They're, you know, they're 
really. 

410
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,640
And yet they come back with the 
opposite inclusion. 

411
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,880
Oh, we're going to win this. 
We have no need to worry. 

412
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,920
You know, it's a very 
interesting little switch in the

413
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,040
story. 
So I've read that story many 

414
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,640
times. 
And a couple years ago, I came 

415
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:55,560
with another set of parallels. 
Two people who are sent to by a 

416
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,080
force that's going to destroy a 
city, take refuge in a house. 

417
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:07,160
A mob surrounds the house or 
people surround the house and 

418
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,400
close. 
Not meaning the. 

419
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,120
Yeah, I think this is a reversal
of the load story. 

420
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:21,320
OK. 
And that would be the gush 

421
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,240
method to look and say, OK, and 
then, then you'd look and say, 

422
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,680
OK, if the themes are the same, 
what wording is the same, and 

423
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,360
you find a set of verbal 
parallels along the way, I'll 

424
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,400
let you do your homework. 
We don't have to, OK, which 

425
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,520
parallels match up, including a 
little word play that happened 

426
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,960
to love though, which is the two
people go to Rahav and the two 

427
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,000
angels go to before they go to 
love, they go to Rahul Fahir. 

428
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,360
So if you hear the little play 
there, it's a fun little. 

429
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,480
And then the question of course 
you have to ask, and sometimes I

430
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,680
think this is a legitimate 
Christian is a good method. 

431
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,800
What is the point of these 
parallels and why is the Dome 

432
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,200
destroyed? 
If you look at the text in the 

433
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,040
middle of the text, why is the 
Dome destroyed? 

434
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,320
There's sinful nature towards. 
Define sinful. 

435
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,720
What is the sin that was the 
only sin we can see in? 

436
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,040
There are several sins we see, 
but what's sin is the one that's

437
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:27,360
being gone, being highlighted. 
The the way they're abusing 

438
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:31,080
Lot's daughters. 
Even before they offered, 

439
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,720
Lodenfeld makes that strange 
offer to separate, you know, 

440
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:36,560
discussion. 
But they don't take guessing. 

441
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,600
They don't take guessing. 
And that is contrast with 

442
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:47,040
Abraham, who in the previous 
chapter is taking guessing. 

443
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,400
And then, of course, if you're a
gush guy, you're looking and 

444
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,040
saying, hear the words, and 
here's the words. 

445
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,520
And right here's the parallel to
the little story. 

446
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,200
And he's playing, interpreting 
itself. 

447
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,280
Rakov gets saved and. 
She invited. 

448
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,240
Because she takes guests in she.
Invited them. 

449
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,160
And I would add as something 
perhaps a little bit dramatic, 

450
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,040
but she's a Kanani. 
But that tells us the Kanani not

451
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,880
being destroyed for any national
reasons or biological reasons. 

452
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,000
This is a there's a moral issue 
if you a Kanani who can take 

453
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,840
guests in in Madrasic terms, 
gets to marry Yoshua, as the 

454
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,280
Madrasico will say at the end of
the chapter 6. 

455
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,560
You know, this is an amazing 
this is an amazing thing. 

456
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,120
But I was to give that an 
example of how the Gush Tanaka 

457
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,240
method works. 
It's anachema for Ashutosh MO. 

458
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,240
I find words or I find a story, 
I've matched it up with other 

459
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,800
stories. 
I find lines, I match them up 

460
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,200
with other and you create this 
huge intertextual web. 

461
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,200
That's a lot of fun. 
You know, it's a lot of fun to 

462
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,800
be playful. 
You can look does this sometimes

463
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:02,120
how the strands may be very 
tenuous, you know, and this is 

464
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:04,000
part of the discussion that 
still has to be had. 

465
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,480
How what are the rules to these 
parallels? 

466
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,000
What are the rules to is this 
what the author really intended?

467
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,960
It's hard to say the author, but
you know, is this is the text 

468
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,640
telling me look back at the 
story. 

469
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,240
I think in the rough up and the 
low story it does sometimes you 

470
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,480
have others, you know, that may 
be less convincing. 

471
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,760
But we're looking at texts as a 
whole and trying to see what the

472
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,080
texts as a whole say. 
So so there. 

473
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,560
So it's assuming it's assuming a
unity to the text. 

474
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,160
Correct. 
In fact, not only is it assuming

475
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:40,240
it's displaying the unity to the
text, in a sense it's displaying

476
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,120
and it's it's it's putting it 
out there so I've. 

477
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,240
Been working with Rabbi Asher 
Manning the past month on an 

478
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,560
article for Raviol. 
Banu's 75th birthday is fresh 

479
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,360
right? 
Trying to explain his 

480
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:55,280
methodology in English and it 
discusses 2 approaches to 

481
00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,480
biblical criticism, higher 
source criticism and in gush you

482
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,760
had Robert Breuer who was famous
for his He accepted the 

483
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,040
fundamentals or different 
documents that have Kurdish bar 

484
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,680
who built the Torah has 
different documents and wants to

485
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,080
contrast different ideas of each
other. 

486
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,840
Accepting at least the basis of 
the source criticism. 

487
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,760
As he says, as opposed to four 
authors. 

488
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,520
Hashem is the author and we have
to understand why he does this. 

489
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,680
And Raviol's approach is exactly
what you said. 

490
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:32,520
When you see enough of these 
larger patterns, it creates a 

491
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,520
large, you know, it creates a 
larger picture. 

492
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,640
OK, so this piece in and of self
may not fit, but if I see it in 

493
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,760
a larger picture, there's a 
unity that's created that the 

494
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,000
question many of the questions 
Raviol would say all of them, 

495
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,080
but many of the questions for 
Sure Start to disappear. 

496
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,560
We had Rabbi David Foreman on 
while back and his whole, we had

497
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,280
a whole segment just dedicated 
to this way of responding to 

498
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,440
biblical source criticism, which
I thought was very effective. 

499
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,680
And it's, it's precisely what 
you're saying right now. 

500
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,040
There's so much, it's like 
overwhelming the evidence that 

501
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,320
it's so difficult to make the 
argument. 

502
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,480
Once you once you see it, you 
can't Unsee it. 

503
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,840
I I personally agree with you. 
I know that in talking to 

504
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:28,920
academics who hold by the source
critical theory, they won't they

505
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,760
don't deny that there's a level 
of intertextuality that is 

506
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,000
taking place throughout the text
or a structure. 

507
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,920
They just feel that the 
different wordings for large 

508
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,400
part. 
I remember James Kugel told me 

509
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,840
several years ago he was 
actually my one of my two 

510
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,400
mentors on my master's thesis in
Bar Ilan. 

511
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,080
And he said to me, honestly, 
there are really only two 

512
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,760
documents, the P document and 
everything else. 

513
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,000
OK, that the in academia the 
many of the distinctions between

514
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,400
you know the Jed and I hope 
nobody's offended by me 

515
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:11,440
explaining what they think have 
fallen away because of it. 

516
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,880
But the P document remains a 
very specific and to me as a 

517
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,240
religious Jew, that makes sense.
If anybody who's ever read any 

518
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,280
document or contract they've 
signed for a rental agreement 

519
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,640
knows that the English in a 
legal contract is not the same 

520
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:32,920
as day-to-day conversational 
English or even prose. 

521
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,600
The fact that the Torah will use
a different terminology for 

522
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:43,080
legal terms doesn't doesn't 
bother me so much as it does as 

523
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,840
others would say. 
Ah, here's my proof. 

524
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,760
But but again, this comes down 
to the question of what are my 

525
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,960
assumptions going into the text.
I acknowledge I have my biases 

526
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:52,960
and I'm not embarrassed with 
them. 

527
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,120
And those people who are 
academic have to acknowledge 

528
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,480
they're coming with an 
assumption of what the text is. 

529
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,280
If you view it as a man made 
document over hundreds of years,

530
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,280
you'll find cracks. 
And if you view it as a divine 

531
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,240
what appear to be cracks. 
If you use a divine document, 

532
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,920
you'll those will disappear. 
I want to be fair to both sides,

533
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,480
but I do see a larger over to 
overwhelm, you know, overarching

534
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,400
unity to the text that's there. 
And it's not just even about 

535
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,520
you. 
I mean, unity is, is, is the 

536
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,440
obvious points that you can 
bring out. 

537
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,000
But what's more interesting and 
where it gets more, where it 

538
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,280
gets more, it's harder but also 
more enriching is when we try to

539
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,280
is when we understand that not 
only is there unity through the 

540
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,680
text being shown here, but the 
text is speaking to each other. 

541
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,080
The texts are, the texts are in 
conversation. 

542
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,680
It's it's. 
That's the fun part. 

543
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,840
That's the fun, that's the 
enriching part. 

544
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,280
And that's, and that's the part 
where I, I feel like a lot of 

545
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,160
people, they, they, they, they 
appreciate the gush method 

546
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,720
because it shows the unity of 
the text. 

547
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,040
But I don't think people realize
how enriching actually getting 

548
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,160
into it and seeing the 
conversation that's going on 

549
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,960
here in the text and what it 
could really mean towards what 

550
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,640
what's actually being written. 
Also the difficulty of, you 

551
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,520
know, taking separate documents 
and combining them and still 

552
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,720
having a coherent message is it,
it's very difficult to, you 

553
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,040
know, grasp that for me. 
I, I, I sympathize the answer to

554
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,200
me, it's, they're not different 
documents. 

555
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,880
They're one document. 
But what you said about the 

556
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:35,200
conversation, one of the IT took
20 years before somebody taught 

557
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,080
me the first basic skill of 
understanding Toastwood on the 

558
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,200
Gemara. 
I just wanted to bring this to 

559
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,520
this. 
I'll come back to the Tanaka in 

560
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,200
a second, which is when 
Toastfoods takes a text from OK,

561
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,000
what did I just study? 
OK, the first mission in the 

562
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:58,720
10th chapter in Saffian, you 
cannot eat before, you know, the

563
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,360
seder. 
Then Tosa comes with the Gemara 

564
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,920
and Kufzai and says you can eat 
mene targuma, you can eat these 

565
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,320
different foods. 
So the question is, do I explain

566
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,480
this text in terms of this text 
or which text is primary? 

567
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,320
Which text is toast Would always
says this text is the one that's

568
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,960
correct and this text has to be 
reinterpreted. 

569
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,960
Correct to make fit to to the 
other text. 

570
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,680
Right, A or B, which but the 
implicit understanding you have 

571
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,520
to ask which text this toast 
would hold to be this is the 

572
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,080
text that I'm not going to 
change this text. 

573
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:38,080
I'm going to you talk about 
conversations in the first term 

574
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,560
at Theon 2. 
There are two articles on Noah 

575
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:47,360
getting drunk. 
OK, Rabbi Hanoch Waxen wrote a 

576
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,200
brilliant article comparing Noah
getting drunk to getting drunk 

577
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,640
of his daughters. 
And I wrote an article on Noah 

578
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:04,200
getting drunk compared to Gun 
Aiden, that every step that Noah

579
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,280
is taking is parallel to what 
Adam, Adam, Mauricio is supposed

580
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:08,639
to be doing in the Garden of 
Eden. 

581
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,280
So the question is, how is 
depending on the story I pick, 

582
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,320
is Noah just getting drunk to 
avoid it all? 

583
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,560
Just like Lote is post trauma, 
post really destruction, the 

584
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,600
destruction of Saddam, the 
destruction of his whole world 

585
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,840
and he's there's nothing left 
and he's getting drunk to avoid 

586
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,880
that. 
Or is he doing what he's doing 

587
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,719
to try to recreate, you know, 
the Garden of Eden after the 

588
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,400
world has, is he starting anew 
or is he trying to hide? 

589
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,080
So the picking the story did I 
apply to becomes very 

590
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,880
fascinating because that then it
becomes a interpretive choice. 

591
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:49,639
You know, it's not just two 
stories, but there's this whole 

592
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:55,840
web going back and forth. 
My next one of my next works is 

593
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,240
going to be is a book on the 
Tanakh web. 

594
00:34:58,240 --> 00:34:59,760
I'm just trying to create one of
these. 

595
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,400
Remember how when we were kids 
we said these choose your own 

596
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:07,080
adventure stories. 
So I'm I'd like to create a 

597
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:09,720
thing. 
OK, you're at the Ikeda. 

598
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,200
If you want to see how the Ikeda
plays out in the covenant after 

599
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,160
Matantora in chapter 24, go to 
this page. 

600
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,640
If you want to see the Ikeda has
echoes in something very 

601
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,760
different, the concubine of 
Giva, the horrible story of the 

602
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,000
pluggage of Giva in chapter 19 
inch. 

603
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,320
But there's all sorts of 
literary parallels there as 

604
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,440
well. 
Go to this page. 

605
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,680
And the story that I choose will
influence how I understand 

606
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,760
what's happening in the akada. 
So conversations are two ways 

607
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,320
and people forget that. 
And then if I read A&B, that's 

608
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:48,960
going to influence my 
understanding of a. 

609
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,800
It's a challenging, it's a 
challenging question. 

610
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,440
It's fun though. 
It's that this is part of what 

611
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,120
the fun, you know, the enjoyment
of learning is, at least in the 

612
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,400
good way, so. 
It's it's truly amazing. 

613
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,960
And regarding some of Kimchi's 
criticisms. 

614
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,400
OK, so if memory stories about 
he had several. 

615
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:19,360
He brought a very interesting 
criticism that I accept and I 

616
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,840
get stuck with a So what? 
I'll explain what the criticism 

617
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,160
is that we can't put ourselves 
into the. 

618
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,120
Time period. 
My we claim to be trying to 

619
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,960
understand shot what is the 
meaning of the text, but meaning

620
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,160
is time dependent and values 
dependent. 

621
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,840
And this, you know, we can't 
understand what it means if a 

622
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,560
king has a total control over 
subject. 

623
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,600
He says go charge and everybody 
goes in charges. 

624
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,680
Well, who's responsible for the 
damage they caused? 

625
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,920
And you know, where as we now 
nowadays hold individual 

626
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,760
soldiers responsible for, you 
know, what would be war crimes? 

627
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,800
If somebody is committed with an
atrocity, they have to be held 

628
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:05,880
responsible. 
That's not a no. 

629
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,560
I don't think anybody would 
question that. 

630
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,600
But in ancient times you 
wouldn't. 

631
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,040
I don't think that would apply 
because no, the idea of even 

632
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,360
disobeying a soul, a king would 
be a it wouldn't be done. 

633
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,880
It just is so far he brings, I 
think he brings that example and

634
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,280
what if in his article that 
writes about it and the reality 

635
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,080
is the problem with it's it's 
correct. 

636
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,120
And then So what it don't mean 
to be dismissive because this 

637
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,240
isn't that's not the critique 
that got me out of that caused 

638
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:39,520
me to lose sleep. 
There's one critique he had. 

639
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,640
There are three critiques. 
I'm going to do the first two 

640
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,160
that didn't cause me to lose any
sleep. 

641
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,720
The critique was, you know, that
we can't fully appreciate what 

642
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:51,000
it means. 
And that's true, but that's why 

643
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,600
the Maggie Mishnah says in the 
Torah, because the Torah is 

644
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,760
Nisrit, it doesn't try to answer
every question at every time, 

645
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,160
but it allows for the variations
in human interactions and 

646
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,840
because the values, the ultimate
values are eternal. 

647
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,160
So the recognize that you know 
various points as I can to fully

648
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,080
appreciate the text. 
I mean the second one was if. 

649
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,400
We're going with the premise if 
we're going with the premise 

650
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,720
that it's a divine text, if 
we're going with the premise 

651
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,080
that it's a divine text, with 
that premise, of course, of 

652
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,720
course, if not, that's a whole 
different story. 

653
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:31,520
But with the premise of a of a, 
of a divine text, meaning 

654
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,200
becomes I mean to to to square 
into what meaning is not. 

655
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,320
Yeah, OK. 
That's that's a great question 

656
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,680
and it I'll tell you where it 
comes up and especially in very 

657
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:47,520
relevant to our lives nowadays. 
What are the how does this, how 

658
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,040
do we wage war morally? 
OK. 

659
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,360
If we were to go by biblical 
what's described in the Bible, 

660
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,440
then we should be doing a lot 
more to the Palestinians. 

661
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:07,200
And that is inherently moral. 
And I think it's issues like 

662
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,600
this, you know, we're already we
see. 

663
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,120
I like the Rambam's explanation 
of Shmita. 

664
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,040
How can you nullify a biblical 
mitzvah and principle 

665
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,680
specifically, how can you 
nullify a biblical mitzvah give 

666
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,720
Khazal the right to override, 
you know a biblical mitzvah and 

667
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:32,480
the Rambam and the guide to 
perplex and you see it elsewhere

668
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:39,880
with says because the values are
eternal, how we apply these 

669
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,800
values has to be established by 
time base. 

670
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,240
I would not want to apply 
biblical, the biblical standards

671
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:50,520
of morality to Modern Warfare 
nowadays. 

672
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,520
I don't think we should. 
I don't think it's right. 

673
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,960
I think it I think it's wrong. 
The rhombam describes a process 

674
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,080
where Corbenote Corbenote was 
the appropriate approach. 

675
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,960
The heat. 
But the tortoise is tries to 

676
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,400
move us and wean us away from 
it. 

677
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,760
And one could argue very simply 
slavery. 

678
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,480
You know, how does how does the 
Bible have slavery? 

679
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,840
Because everybody has slavery, 
and slavery is a universal 

680
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,160
institution and only recent. 
But the Bible makes it very 

681
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,160
clear it doesn't like flavor. 
Bible makes it very clear it 

682
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,400
doesn't like bearing 2 wives. 
There's nobody marries 2 wives 

683
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,200
gets off, nothing good happens 
to them. 

684
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,760
OK 2 mother in law's cannot. 
Be a good deal. 

685
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,520
It spends a good deal of time. 
It spends a good deal of time 

686
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,400
with Rachel and Leia outlining 
that. 

687
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,000
I mean, it's not even. 
It's very, very direct about. 

688
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,320
Yeah, direct about it even. 
Though Pnina and Khanna, you can

689
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,600
go through everybody who's 
married Yeah. 

690
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,720
And this becomes the and it the 
Rambam builds this very nuanced 

691
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:56,880
and subtle idea, but it's I 
think it's the correct 

692
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,640
understanding of the text. 
I can't outlaw everything, but I

693
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,960
can set up the values. 
I don't like slavery. 

694
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:10,640
I don't like polygamy. 
I don't like, you know, the and 

695
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,120
notice already you see that in 
Khazal there was no such thing 

696
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,680
as have been Sora Mora. 
There's no such thing as Irahini

697
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,240
Dakhat, you know. 
And already there's this sense 

698
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:25,120
that we aren't we, don't we? 
Avoiding the death penalty as 

699
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,840
much as possible. 
Or correct. 

700
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,800
Yeah. 
And that's saying that I'm not. 

701
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,440
And it doesn't detract from the 
divine text. 

702
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,560
It just says how it's applied 
has to be regulated and 

703
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,080
moderated. 
And This is why we have Fazal 

704
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,400
and This is why we have these 
discussions throughout our 

705
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,720
commentators. 
And so the I think that's so it 

706
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:50,680
is a divine text without 
question, because it, and it 

707
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,160
contains divine values that are 
eternal values don't change how 

708
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,360
how they're applied on a 
day-to-day basis. 

709
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,840
For this, we have rabbinical 
guidance and you know, a 

710
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,080
tradition of thousands of years.
That would be my response to 

711
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,960
what you're saying. 
Excellent. 

712
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,920
Yep. 
And which criticism of kimchi 

713
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,760
did make you lose sleep? 
So the second criticism was the 

714
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,880
academic that was he, Kimchi 
says. 

715
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,680
You're cherry picking from the 
academics. 

716
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,240
You set some of their findings, 
but you don't accept their 

717
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:31,000
conclusions. 
And again, that's I don't think 

718
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,320
that's intellectually dishonest 
if I because the academics come 

719
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,280
up with a foundational set of 
here's what we believe to be 

720
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:45,120
true about the text or whatever 
we are doing, and then they 

721
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:46,760
interpret what they find 
accordingly. 

722
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,400
Now those findings are findings 
and what they find in 

723
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,520
archaeology I have to deal with,
but I don't necessarily say have

724
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,040
to accept their understanding. 
I don't believe the exodus 

725
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,040
happened and therefore this is 
how what archaeology teaches. 

726
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:03,080
But I can look and say, OK, I do
have this interesting discovery 

727
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,280
here at Kayaba, which shows 
that, wait a second, there's no 

728
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,520
pig bones anywhere in this area 
and the good gates are facing 

729
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,200
Jerusalem. 
There's a double gate. 

730
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,760
And could that be the Shari 
mentioned in Schwalf? 

731
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,440
And you have, I don't have to. 
I'm not bound by their 

732
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,640
intellectual, you know, their 
assumptions. 

733
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,720
That doesn't bother me. 
The one that bothered me was 

734
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:27,920
these. 
Old because they're bringing 

735
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,920
their own bias to the text. 
Right, since they're bringing my

736
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,280
own bias. 
That that's exactly what OK. 

737
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,680
Yeah, OK, The one that did 
bother me was a fascinating 1 

738
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,480
because it's, I'll tell you 
where it came from. 

739
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,960
His he says what is the purpose 
of studying texts in general? 

740
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,320
What is the purpose of studying 
texts? 

741
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,720
And the Zohar, you know, he 
brought the Zohar quoted by 

742
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:59,000
Ramosha Lifenstein and Bahisi 
Kati that the shot is the 

743
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:05,600
garment. 
But getting close to Karish 

744
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:12,560
Barkhu is the meaning of the 
text is the purpose. 

745
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,440
I don't know if you remember, 
this is a sort of this he threw 

746
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:19,720
it out. 
This is the it's not the 

747
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:21,960
purpose. 
And because the Glush Derek is 

748
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,720
so concentrated on the structure
and the shot and understanding 

749
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,800
what are the rules of the text 
are understanding itself, 

750
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,520
where's the meaning to it? 
And I don't know if he's aware 

751
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,280
of it. 
He was echoing the criticism of 

752
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,520
Rabbi Francis Nataf in Jewish 
accent several years ago when 

753
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:48,200
the Tormezion study finished. 
And they he he put a criticism 

754
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,320
into the Jewish action. 
And I remember this bothering me

755
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,080
no end. 
Of course, I'm biased. 

756
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,400
This is I view the Tormezion 
series as, you know, as my, you 

757
00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:59,640
know, as my baby. 
OK. 

758
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,640
And obviously many other people,
great people, worked on the 

759
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,480
project, did much more than I 
did to develop it. 

760
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,040
But I have a love for this 
series. 

761
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,600
And he said it teaches 
structure, it shows patterns. 

762
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:21,240
It's great, but it's a but it's 
too sophisticated and there's 

763
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,440
nobody's trying to What is the 
meaning? 

764
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,560
What is the purpose? 
Meaning what? 

765
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:30,600
May I just. 
I'm just. 

766
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,440
Trying to understand something. 
I'm just trying to understand 

767
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,600
something. 
There's enormous amount of 

768
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,040
meaning that's brought out from 
these structures all over you, 

769
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,240
we read Tormetzion. 
It's like infinite amount of 

770
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:47,440
meanings, that is, that is 
brought out from the structures.

771
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,440
What do we mean here by no 
meaning? 

772
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,240
Well, I think he would. 
He was, if I recall correctly, I

773
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:55,760
haven't listened to that podcast
in a long time, but what he was,

774
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,600
I think the point that he 
referenced was that, for 

775
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,480
example, like a Subs the the the
you know, descendants of Ace of 

776
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,240
that whole section, like what 
what is the purpose of mention, 

777
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:06,800
right? 
Was that what he mentioned? 

778
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,360
Right, I would I would say it a 
little differently. 

779
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,040
It's you. 
It's very hard to take a 

780
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,320
tournament to an essay and make 
an inspiring 2 minute void at 

781
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,880
the Shabbos table. 
OK. 

782
00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:24,880
Which is A and this comes into a
lot of the questions that we ask

783
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,400
in yeshiva. 
Am I teaching the text? 

784
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:35,360
Am I teaching or am I? 
And I don't think the dichotomy 

785
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:41,920
is true or am I teaching values 
or goals, if that makes any. 

786
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,920
There's this sense of many of 
the courses that many she would 

787
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,920
offer, I would call Yeshiva Ted 
talks where they take a verse 

788
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:56,600
and then they run and jump and 
or an idea and they developed 

789
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,120
that idea. 
If you look at the most best 

790
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,880
selling books in the Jewish 
world, OK, the Musser books, 

791
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,080
nobody opens up a Navi. 
We'll come back to Navi soon. 

792
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:09,280
Nobody opens a Navi for Musser. 
There's right. 

793
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,480
The best selling books are the 
ones that tell me what I need to

794
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,640
do right now. 
Tell me what I need to think, 

795
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,160
tell me what I need. 
You know, what are my what are 

796
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,080
the meat out I need to have? 
What are the Mashkafa? 

797
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,320
You can't get the boort with 
like a punch line right with 

798
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,520
when it's. 
Very, it's, it's very hard. 

799
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:27,960
What does it, you know, what is 
it? 

800
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,520
And that becomes. 
So as I said, it kept me off 

801
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,760
because it really did bother me 
because there is a truth to 

802
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,080
that. 
Guys don't come to my class to 

803
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,680
be inspired. 
I try to inspire. 

804
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,280
I try to be, but they don't. 
The purpose of the class is to 

805
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,600
actually learn something. 
And I don't like creating this 

806
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,760
artificial dichotomy. 
But look at the shelves of if 

807
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,560
you go into Yeshua, you look at 
the books that the kids put on 

808
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,640
the they're mock home. 
They don't have to knock since 

809
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:02,200
they will have, you know, you 
have if you get a fancy title, 

810
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:06,640
the magic touch, you know the 
you remember that book on the 

811
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,000
Ghia from so many years ago, 
right? 

812
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,040
Great book, great marketing. 
And I'm not against, I'm not 

813
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,520
against. 
You know, I'm not saying that 

814
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,720
that's wrong, but I was. 
You see how that it's marketed. 

815
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,920
I have my favorite always is 
Eric Frum. 

816
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:28,480
You know, the former student of 
Rob Dessler took and turned it 

817
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,600
into the psych great 
psychologist book, psychological

818
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,800
bestseller, the art of loving. 
And I always wanted to devastate

819
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,520
the Hafitzkaya and the art of 
not speaking gossip and, you 

820
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,240
know, destroy and defaming your 
neighbors or finding a good 

821
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:47,400
title. 
And but that's, that's 90% of 

822
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,800
our Jewish bookshelf. 
And I think there's a reason for

823
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,520
that. 
People are looking first for 

824
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,120
inspiration to stay connected, 
to stay attached. 

825
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:02,640
And to what extent does the Gush
methodology advance that? 

826
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,360
I'll tell you a lot of the 
problems of people in Gush. 

827
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,800
They live in Israel. 
They read the Tana. 

828
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,760
They look outside the window. 
Yeah, I'm inspired for people 

829
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,280
who are removed from from that 
milieu. 

830
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,360
It's not as exciting. 
You don't walk around Teaneck, 

831
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,640
NJ with A to knock in hand and 
recreate the steps of the 

832
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,320
answer. 
It's a very different and so you

833
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,520
they don't have the sense that 
this is a living document as 

834
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,320
much as it would be otherwise. 
It's not it's not a 2 minute 

835
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:40,120
void at the Shabbos table. 
So that did bother me and I 

836
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,680
thought about it some more. 
If I have, let me ask you a 

837
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,000
question. 
How would you define Tor 

838
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:55,200
Alishma? 
The great debate over the years.

839
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,760
Between Rabbahima Velajan and 
the. 

840
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,000
Tor Alishma I would say would be
the rush. 

841
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,440
The rush had the rush had Lachem
Tor. 

842
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,280
I believe that's from the Rush. 
No, I'm a legend Games, right? 

843
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,440
Then you have the Hasidic view. 
If you were to ask me just like 

844
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,160
this on one foot, I would say 
just the the most basic level 

845
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,720
Torah Lishma should mean trying 
to understand the Torah for the 

846
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:25,120
sake of what the Torah has to 
say. 

847
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:27,920
So you're siding with the Roche,
the Haim volition? 

848
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,120
In a sense. 
I think to a large. 

849
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,560
Extent the Jewish. 
World has sided with Rushner 

850
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,760
Zelman, the first libelo trebi. 
He says Torahly, schmaz, 

851
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,720
whatever gets you close to the 
Kurdish baruch. 

852
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:42,800
Yeah, OK. 
Yeah. 

853
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,680
Which is essentially Torres from
Torah for the purpose of. 

854
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,960
Yeah, yeah. 
And that's we see it in the 

855
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,640
spirituality I teach in the 
Israeli high school as well as 

856
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,200
Leva Torah. 
And who wants to say it's enough

857
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,360
when you know you've got Rebbe 
Nachman stories that are all the

858
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:04,320
rage and very quick spiritual 
fixes and, you know, highs and 

859
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:09,000
this becomes a again. 
So this is what JJ Kimke's 

860
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,720
critique, you know, all these 
thoughts came back when I heard 

861
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:17,280
this, because the gust message 
does not lend itself to easy 

862
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,160
forts. 
I will accept that and own that 

863
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,160
it's it's sides with the Roche, 
the convolution. 

864
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:26,440
We're here to try to understand 
what the Torah is saying. 

865
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,600
And it's a much more arduous and
strenuous process. 

866
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,000
And it appears you have to sit 
down and read it and appreciate 

867
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,360
the nuances. 
It doesn't lend itself to quick 

868
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,360
fixes, which I think a lot of 
the British world, modern world 

869
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,680
is trying to always find today. 
So. 

870
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:48,840
That's a that's a modern 
phenomenon, you know, the need 

871
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,040
for inspiration for when it 
comes to like these giving these

872
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,600
votes. 
But I don't think that's really 

873
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,920
a that's not really a valid 
critique on, you know, 

874
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:00,400
historically. 
Like what? 

875
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,280
Like what would be wrong? 
Why? 

876
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,760
Why would that 'cause you not to
sleep well? 

877
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:06,960
And what what exactly is 
bothersome about that? 

878
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:08,240
That's the part I don't 
understand. 

879
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,600
Because every time that I go in 
and teach students, I have a 

880
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:17,200
responsibility to them both to 
give over information and to 

881
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,920
inspire them so that 20 years 
from now they will hopefully be 

882
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,120
able to, you know, pass this on 
to their children. 

883
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,200
And that may. 
I say some. 

884
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:27,600
What? 
May I say something? 

885
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,120
Please. 
When I, I'm, I'm being totally 

886
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:36,760
upfront over here. 
When I was younger, I learned a 

887
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:42,280
lot of Hasidut, a lot too much, 
OK, a lot. 

888
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:49,000
And I got inspired a lot. 
Like it's like a, it was like a 

889
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:57,200
tidal wave of, of inspiration. 
At one point I stopped. 

890
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:09,040
There was a part of me that was 
sort of I guess inside it was 

891
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,760
like, well, well, where am I 
going to get in for inspiration 

892
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:18,080
from right now if I'm not going 
the route that I was accustomed 

893
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,280
to going and accustomed to 
seeing those results? 

894
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:29,840
It was actually paretsion 
gushetsion that actually that is

895
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,920
where I rekindled inspiration. 
But you see it's a different 

896
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,840
type of inspiration because it's
not, it's not the quick fix. 

897
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,520
You see, inspiration could be a 
little bit like drug. 

898
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,200
Sometimes it's easy. 
You take it boom, like you know,

899
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,840
you're, you know, you get the, 
the high from, from, from the 

900
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,400
inspiration, but it's not 
something that it doesn't it, 

901
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,720
it, it, it, it's not something 
that is that last. 

902
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,720
You have to constantly be going 
through inspiration to be able 

903
00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:00,680
to keep that up. 
It's like it's like almost like 

904
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,640
because it comes up and then it 
comes down and comes up and 

905
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,720
down. 
But when you take the Tanakh and

906
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,160
you start to really decipher it,
finding structure, keywords, 

907
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,880
intertextuality, understanding 
these texts, talking to each 

908
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,800
other and then understanding. 
This is why I brought up before 

909
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,000
the enrich in part is not just 
in seeing the unity of the text,

910
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,000
but seeing how the text is 
informing each other and 

911
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,760
something, something really deep
is coming out of all of this. 

912
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:30,760
It's not just, you know, it's 
not just a literary exercise. 

913
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,760
It's it's a divine document. 
It's a divine text which we are 

914
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,800
using certain tools given to us 
that we can then unlock it. 

915
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:44,680
For me, that gave tremendous 
inspiration the last, and it 

916
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,840
was, in a sense, more inspiring 
than anything I ever had before.

917
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,840
So this whole conversation, this
whole time, I'm kind of binding 

918
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,200
my lip because I get what you're
saying. 

919
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,880
I understand. 
But arriving at a mature 

920
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:03,800
inspiration is 100 times more 
powerful, effective, lasting and

921
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,160
real. 
Thank. 

922
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,200
You for the physique. 
No, but it's I'm just telling 

923
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:09,960
you from my experience. 
Hashem. 

924
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:12,600
Hashem is not found in the 
whirlwind. 

925
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,760
He's found in the still, steady 
voice. 

926
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:15,200
Right. 
So I'm I'm. 

927
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,000
So and yet we wouldn't outlaw 
NTSY chapatones for our 

928
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,640
teenagers. 
We understand that there's a 

929
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,320
role in there's a place for 
that. 

930
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,720
I'm not disagreeing. 
There's a place for tishes, 

931
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:27,320
there's a place for singing, 
there's a place we need to be 

932
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,240
able to find that balance. 
And that's why I said it. 

933
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,280
I didn't say that JJ was right 
or the critique is right, OK. 

934
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:40,040
But I do say it's something that
I wrestle with because I 

935
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:44,440
understand there's a what's the 
famous Madras, you know, the you

936
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,880
take the long path that's short 
or the short path that's long. 

937
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:51,480
And too many people take the 
short path that's long into the 

938
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,800
quick fix, the quick 
inspiration. 

939
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,640
But they're always the most 
popular speakers in yeshiva, you

940
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,280
know, like this guy. 
They're the fun ones, right? 

941
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,200
And those of us who are actually
teaching text and teaching young

942
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,960
minds how to work through text 
seriously, you know, with 

943
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,800
discipline, with repetition. 
Think this out. 

944
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:14,440
Don't be I'm not going to give 
it to you. 

945
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,760
It's harder. 
It's less popular and I embrace 

946
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:23,000
that. 
But I'm aware of the these don't

947
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,240
these I don't I don't get up in 
class and try to be Mr. 

948
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:31,560
Inspirational Mr. Ted talks 
every time I in front I'm trying

949
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:36,920
to do something different and. 
I, I actually think that I think

950
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:41,360
we're underestimating the, your,
the ability to, to turn these 

951
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,880
into warts because if you, if 
you like, I, I personally love 

952
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:48,200
Alf. 
Beta, Yeah, Alf, Beta has 

953
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,600
essentially it's 10 minutes, 
what you're thinking? 

954
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,840
It's, it's basically 10 minutes 
and the way I mean, my, my kids 

955
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,600
love it and they, I don't think 
they get it, this kind of 

956
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,800
inspiration. 
Have you ever seen LF beta 

957
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,640
before? 
I'm a subscribe member. 

958
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,160
I don't think Rebbe Foreman 
appreciates the brilliance of 

959
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:13,840
what the visual adds to our 
understanding of text, which 

960
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:15,880
I've been fighting in this year 
for few years. 

961
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,840
Please give me a bar core. 
You'll be the only one who uses.

962
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,960
I don't care. 
Please let me do this. 

963
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,080
The first time I've ever talked 
with a smart board is in the 

964
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,840
Yeshiva Dork. 
I'm in Toronto as a guest 

965
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,360
speaker for one class and I got 
to move words around and all of 

966
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,920
a sudden everybody's watching 
because you, we live in 

967
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:34,560
engaging. 
This is another. 

968
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,400
It's a separate issue that every
Jewish educator deals with. 

969
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,920
We're a reading. 
We're a reading. 

970
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,320
We're people with a book in a 
world of smartphones and we are 

971
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,720
having a very hard time 
competing nowadays. 

972
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,680
Absolutely, absolutely. 
Yeah. 

973
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:54,200
I mean, for me, I think that to 
that to me is like I'm, I'm so 

974
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,560
inspired of my children. 
I think that that's for me the 

975
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:01,640
biggest test my children are are
young, they're under 12 and this

976
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,440
is the one thing that they like,
you know, this is, and you would

977
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,200
think it's they need to hear 
these stories and meet Rashim 

978
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,360
and all that. 
But actually this is the the 

979
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,240
shot is so attractive to them 
because it's just the way they 

980
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,800
it's weaved together. 
It's done in like 1015 minute 

981
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:17,920
segments. 
There, it's incredible. 

982
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:19,640
And there's a punch line at the 
end of it. 

983
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,560
So I think that I think we have 
to give it a little bit more 

984
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,360
credit. 
Yeah, and I and, and that that's

985
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,800
when it comes to children. 
And I think when as we become 

986
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:33,200
adults, I think that really, 
like for me, it's almost, it's 

987
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,040
almost, I'm dumbfounded in a way
because like to me, and maybe 

988
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,280
it's just me, maybe I don't 
know, maybe it's just me. 

989
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,000
But like for me, it's, I don't 
understand how anything can be 

990
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,680
more inspired than what I go 
through and stuff. 

991
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:46,480
But maybe it's just me. 
Maybe it's the problems? 

992
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,920
With me and it's and there's 
nothing wrong with me just being

993
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,440
you or myself because that every
applies to gush. 

994
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:53,000
Not everybody is going to apply 
here. 

995
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:57,320
And yes, yeah, we have Shivimpa 
name the Torah and it's big 

996
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,240
enough that it can encompass all
of us. 

997
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,640
I this gush there, I recognize I
it's that third critique that it

998
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,600
doesn't speak immediately to the
inspirational side. 

999
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:12,920
I it hits because it's something
that we all wrestle with, but we

1000
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,760
do it anyways. 
So you know, what do we have? 

1001
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,360
What are our goals in it? 
It's as we saw this was how we 

1002
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,240
feared off. 
What are the goals in education?

1003
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:21,280
What are we trying to 
accomplish? 

1004
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,960
What where does inspiration 
found that very critique? 

1005
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,480
You know, started that off and 
you have to give JJ credit. 

1006
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,240
Well, I think we're, I want to 
give him, I want to give him a 

1007
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,600
little bit, I want to be a 
little bit more fair because 

1008
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,080
it's coming back to me. 
What, what he was talking about 

1009
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:36,840
in that segment. 
I think he was mentioning the 

1010
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:38,880
fact that let's say, for 
example, the genealogy of like 

1011
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,600
the, the descendants of a sub 
right now, all that's listed and

1012
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,960
from a kind of, you know, from 
the gush kind of method. 

1013
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:52,440
Let's just look at it that way. 
It's, it's kind of like, what 

1014
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:53,880
does this do? 
What do we do with this? 

1015
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,560
Right. 
But with with Kabbalah, for 

1016
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,920
example, there's you can 
decipher a lot of meaning from 

1017
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,280
from all of that. 
You know what seems to be kind 

1018
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:04,960
of. 
OK, right. 

1019
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,440
That's that's what he was 
talking about. 

1020
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,440
Yeah, what we would do with the 
negoti method is actually 

1021
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,840
Rebecca First class on Safer 
Bray Sheet, for the record, 

1022
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,440
which is that there's a clever 
usage of the word tolidote that 

1023
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,400
appears 11 times in Safer Bray 
sheet. 

1024
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,400
And Radak and Rashi have an 
argument whether tolidote means 

1025
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:27,760
generations or the happenings. 
And Ruby Liebtag has, in one of 

1026
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,880
his first essays ever lined up, 
Here's the 11 appearances of the

1027
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,040
word Tolidote. 
Notice who gets genealogies? 

1028
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:43,000
Ishmael, Asav, Vinay, Adam. 
Notice who gets stories? 

1029
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:47,520
Todo Yakov, Todo Yitzhak. 
And he argues that the Tolidoth 

1030
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,480
there are a literary marker to 
say this is the end of Asav's 

1031
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,880
story. 
All he has are generations. 

1032
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:58,200
When it gets to the Todo Yakov, 
there's still more story to be 

1033
01:00:58,200 --> 01:00:59,960
told. 
He's still part of the covenant.

1034
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,280
He's still part of the breed, so
I do want to give at least the 

1035
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:05,840
gush, you know the sure. 
Yeah, that's what I wanted to 

1036
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:07,680
address. 
I think that was part of what he

1037
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:09,640
was saying. 
But again, I have to re listen 

1038
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:10,720
to it. 
It's been a while. 

1039
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:16,680
And is there anything else you 
want to, you know, kind of tie a

1040
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,920
bow around all this about the 
Gushtanaf method? 

1041
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:22,320
We've been talking with the 
Gushtanaf method. 

1042
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,920
I think it'll be we spoken I 
think well and intelligently 

1043
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,080
about it and I don't I don't 
think I have anything major to 

1044
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,040
add right now. 
So. 

1045
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:35,160
That was really, that was really
enjoyable and very necessary so 

1046
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:38,400
and we love JJ so. 
Yeah, JJ is the man. 

1047
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:40,480
JJ is the man. 
I'd like to get to speak to him 

1048
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:42,440
on today. 
I'm sure we'd have a one of 

1049
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,280
these people would love to sit 
down with a nice meal in a nice 

1050
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:46,760
restaurant and just talk for 
hours. 

1051
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:48,800
So yeah. 
He's he's fantastic. 

1052
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,280
We're going to get into your 
book now and for everyone, this 

1053
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,160
is this. 
Is the book OK with the name 

1054
01:01:54,160 --> 01:02:01,440
screen? 
All right, so yoel vadia Mika 

1055
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:10,040
Mika. 
So let's let's start with in 

1056
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,400
your introduction, you speak 
about prophecy. 

1057
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,880
What is prophecy? 
And I think this is a question 

1058
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:20,760
that not enough people ask. 
Sometimes you can be in yeshiva 

1059
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:24,760
for 20 years and I feel like 
have they ever asked themselves 

1060
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,080
what exactly is a Navi? 
I, I don't know. 

1061
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:32,400
So when I saw your introduction 
and how you went through a very 

1062
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,640
detailed explanation of what a 
Navi is, I found it very 

1063
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,600
refreshing, very educational. 
So I wanted to bring this out. 

1064
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:44,480
What is the etymological meaning
and functional role of a Navi? 

1065
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,720
Additionally, how do we 
understand prophecies that 

1066
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,240
appear to have gone unfulfilled?
2 great questions. 

1067
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,040
I'm going to do do them in 
order. 

1068
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,200
The first one is what is a 
Navvi? 

1069
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:01,040
So I want to start with the end.
What the Navvi is not is a 

1070
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:07,480
prophet, meaning the Navvi in 
Tanakh is not somebody who is 

1071
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:15,720
the has a crystal ball and sees 
visions in the future. 

1072
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:21,240
The only person I think who 
would fit into that category in 

1073
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:25,040
the Tanakh would be ironically 
the one person that has all 

1074
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:29,280
debated in Magilla Gimel is not 
enoughy, and that is Danielle. 

1075
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,120
Anybody who's read the visions 
of Danielle in the chapters 7 to

1076
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:38,880
12, the esoteric and the goat 
fighting the Ram and the, you 

1077
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,080
know, charging each other and 
the visions of the splits, the 

1078
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,680
north against the South and all 
these are and to be fair, the 

1079
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:51,160
second-half of Zakaria as well. 
OK, they're they would be what 

1080
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,680
we colloquially understand as a 
prophet, but the first 

1081
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,280
appearance of the word Navi is 
in Seifer Schmot where Hashem 

1082
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:07,840
tells Moshe Vayomar Hashema 
Mushe Rene Tatika I have made 

1083
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:13,200
you a Lord or in position of 
strength over Paro and Aran will

1084
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:20,160
be your Navi and Rashi 
understands immediately that 

1085
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:25,160
this just simply means speaker 
in modern Hebrew we and in early

1086
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:30,440
we talk about speech Nevim are 
you know problems or phrases 

1087
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:36,800
that come off and he understands
the route to be nun vet Aniv is 

1088
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,920
somebody who speaks. 
He's a speaker, He's a 

1089
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:47,720
spokesperson and even Ezra 
prefers an understanding of nun 

1090
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:52,160
bet Aleph, which is to reveal 
that God has a message and the 

1091
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:58,040
Navi's job is to reveal his 
message in Acadian and etcetera,

1092
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:02,640
they talk about the word that 
shorish Nabaa or Nabo is. 

1093
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker Somebody who announces. 
And I saw when when you asked me

1094
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:14,160
to I found in a just recently, 
because you asked the question 

1095
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,160
that there's also a possibility 
if you remember the famous 

1096
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,920
phrase nuttering nabobs of 
negativism. 

1097
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:24,680
The Spiro Agnew and the Nixon's 
vice president complained the 

1098
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,040
media were nuttering nabobs. 
So he's just the word nabob from

1099
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,560
the word Na'vi comes from, you 
know, this all this etymology, 

1100
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:36,360
but all that have to do is just 
simply giving a message over and

1101
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:42,400
but they are people who God 
speaks to and that is important 

1102
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:48,960
for us. 
And therefore you can have 

1103
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,880
people who work within the court
and David has a court Navi God 

1104
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:58,240
and also Natan and Shromo has 
Ido and everybody has their 

1105
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,360
Naveen that they that are 
present. 

1106
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:04,120
And then you have people who 
really are outside the court. 

1107
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:05,680
They're speaking directly to the
people. 

1108
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:08,800
I think that one of the 
distinguishing factors between 

1109
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:13,480
Naveen Rishonim and Acronim, all
the Naveen Macronim do not talk 

1110
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,520
to kings directly. 
They're talking to the people. 

1111
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,680
They're on the soapbox, whether 
it's Jeremy Al standing up in 

1112
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:24,080
the middle of the mission of the
Mekdash in Chapter 7 and Chapter

1113
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,720
26 in Jeremy Al, wherever 
they're giving their speeches, 

1114
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,080
it appears that they're trying 
to speak to the people directly 

1115
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,320
outside of the political 
framework that used that they 

1116
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,520
used to be kept in. 
But they're spokespeople. 

1117
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:39,440
And that leads to the question. 
So it almost avoids your 

1118
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,040
question, how do the propheties 
not become fulfilled? 

1119
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,320
If I'm not saying that they're 
predicting that the goal is to 

1120
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:50,200
predict, then that almost 
removes the question. 

1121
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:56,080
The Rambam in Hilko Yasudiya 
Torah Pericua Dalid has a very 

1122
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,720
has a rule though, which is it's
based on Pursuku Munirmio. 

1123
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:05,880
If a Navi gives a prophecy of 
impending doom and it doesn't 

1124
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:12,440
happen, that doesn't impinge on 
his his status as a Navi. 

1125
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:14,800
In fact, that makes them a very 
good one. 

1126
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:17,320
Guess what, you got the job 
done. 

1127
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,640
Congratulations. 
I've scared the people are A 

1128
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:24,200
cause, the people to think, 
rethink, to return, to repent. 

1129
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:31,480
A Navi who says something good 
is going to happen, that becomes

1130
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:35,160
more of a challenge if it 
doesn't happen, because that has

1131
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:39,520
to be true. 
God would never give a positive 

1132
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:46,680
prophecy without reason. 
The most insightful article on 

1133
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:51,680
this and it's. 
We'll give 2 examples in Chapter

1134
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:58,000
11 of Ishayo describes the birth
of Mashiach and it takes place 

1135
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,400
after chapter 10 in Ishayo which
describes the Assyrian invasion 

1136
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,800
of Yehuda which takes place in 
seven O 1 before the common era.

1137
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:16,160
Now Mifarshim have two options. 
This nevua is completely 

1138
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,560
separate from the chapter in 
front of it because it didn't 

1139
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,120
happen. 
The Mushiyaf didn't come in 

1140
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:27,279
seven O 1 before the common era 
or the Mufar chief can say no, 

1141
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:28,960
this is not referring to 
Mushiya. 

1142
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:34,520
This is referring to his kyao 
and it's only describing him in 

1143
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,040
terms of what the later Mushiya 
would look like. 

1144
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:46,080
The Malvin comes and he says 
every nevua is a suspended 

1145
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,200
sentence. 
If you're deserving, it happens 

1146
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:49,960
now. 
If it's not deserving, it's 

1147
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:54,359
going to happen later. 
He writes his long discussion of

1148
01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:58,920
this meaning it his Kyao should 
have been Meshiach and if for 

1149
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:04,479
those who know Gemara Sanhedrin,
the parapahelic, that's an echo 

1150
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:10,160
to the famous part has Kiskyo 
only sung Shira and he only 

1151
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,800
sung, you know, he only brought 
out the Vince brought out the 

1152
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:14,319
guitar. 
He only brought out, you know, 

1153
01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:17,479
bring out the band. 
Had he only done that properly, 

1154
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:19,800
he only said hello properly, he 
would have been Mashiach. 

1155
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,840
That and of course is also based
on the fact in chapter 12 it 

1156
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,640
describes this thing Rena Bacall
Zimrat, the singing that will 

1157
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:31,200
occur when Mashiach comes. 
So that Gumar is actually also a

1158
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:35,399
pirush commentary on that 
section in the show. 

1159
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,760
But if Mizuho should have been 
Meshia, it doesn't happen. 

1160
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,279
So the mobim says if it doesn't 
happen now, it will happen later

1161
01:09:43,279 --> 01:09:44,720
or we just have to wait for the 
next. 

1162
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:49,720
But that Nivua never positive 
Nivuot will happen. 

1163
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:55,200
It's just a question of when. 
When we're very fortunate we're 

1164
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:58,880
not in the Rebbe Akiva mode 
where we only see the foxes 

1165
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:02,440
coming out of the Beta Migdaj 
and the famous Gwarin mock out 

1166
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,640
where we only seen the and we 
have to rely on our muna. 

1167
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:09,640
Well the foxes are going to come
out then things are going to can

1168
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,120
only get better from here. 
And if Hashem this promise came 

1169
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:13,240
through, this promise came 
through. 

1170
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:18,600
We're very fortunate we live in 
a time where we see the land of 

1171
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:21,400
Israel flourish and we see so 
many good things happening. 

1172
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,120
And I know life is devolved 
here. 

1173
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:26,720
You know, I'm not unaware of it.
I have 5 boys who just last one 

1174
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,000
gets out of the army today since
I, you know. 

1175
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:32,480
So having said that, we, I'm 
well aware of what's, you know, 

1176
01:10:32,480 --> 01:10:36,880
that is challenging, but this is
so much better than it was 80 

1177
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:38,800
years ago. 
It's so things are so much 

1178
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,400
better and we see prophecies 
now. 

1179
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:44,000
The positive prophecies, the 
return, the rebuilding. 

1180
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,240
I'm very passionate about that. 
I think you'll, and I think JJ 

1181
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,600
mentioned this is part of the 
focus of Tanaka. 

1182
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,280
Now it becomes a living document
again, 'cause you've had all 

1183
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:57,400
these positive prophecies that 
have been sitting on the shelf 

1184
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:04,240
for 2000 years, and now you can 
open it up the book up again and

1185
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,440
say, got it, That, that, that 
line right there. 

1186
01:11:08,440 --> 01:11:10,440
That's right. 
You know, kids playing in 

1187
01:11:10,440 --> 01:11:11,480
Jerusalem. 
There you go. 

1188
01:11:11,480 --> 01:11:14,040
OK. 
And you just get excited again. 

1189
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,600
And you, the Tanaka, now speaks 
to us again. 

1190
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:19,280
You know, it's funny because 
it's funny that you mentioned 

1191
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,240
that example because I was 
wondering when people who are 

1192
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:25,360
like, let's say anti Zionists, 
they'll say, or the, the 

1193
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,880
religious anti Zionists will say
like, you know, the, the we're 

1194
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:31,160
waiting for the Navi. 
We're waiting for Eliano Navi to

1195
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:34,840
come and to, to give us the land
to give us, to give us the Beth 

1196
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:36,480
Hamik Dash or the Mashiach or 
whatever it is. 

1197
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,680
And I'm like, we don't need an 
another naveed to come back when

1198
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:43,280
there's a prophecy being 
fulfilled already like this. 

1199
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,280
That prophecy has a. 
Prophecy sitting on the shelf. 

1200
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:47,640
It's sitting on the shelf 
already, so now it's it finally 

1201
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:49,120
happened. 
Why are you not acknowledging 

1202
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,080
that? 
It's right there, you know. 

1203
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:54,120
I'm you have to have somebody 
else. 

1204
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:57,160
I've thought about. 
I cannot give a fair answer for 

1205
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,160
the other side. 
I do try always, but at this 

1206
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:01,960
time I it's. 
Hard. 

1207
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:03,040
It's hard. 
It's hard. 

1208
01:12:03,440 --> 01:12:04,760
It escapes me. 
I have to be into. 

1209
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,280
I cannot, honestly. 
Well, it's coming from, it's 

1210
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:09,880
coming from a place where the, 
where, where there's a lack of 

1211
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:11,840
acceptance for the world as it 
is. 

1212
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:17,320
Meaning the, the, the air of 
Meshech in, in, in their eyes is

1213
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:21,320
something that is so radically 
different from everyday life 

1214
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:26,880
that it, it almost requires a it
requires something drastic 

1215
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:31,840
because to, to, to synthesize a 
messianic world with the world 

1216
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:35,520
today doesn't compute right? 
That's that's what's going on. 

1217
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:41,560
I I think it's also in general 
how much let's not pretend that 

1218
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,280
midnight Israel is this. 
It's not wonderful bastion of, 

1219
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:49,240
you know, overflowing and it's 
very hard to reconcile the two. 

1220
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:51,080
It is. 
It's very hard to reconcile. 

1221
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:55,280
Here's prophecies coming true 
before our very eyes, and the 

1222
01:12:55,280 --> 01:13:01,080
framework, the structure which 
is happening is not the what we 

1223
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:04,440
understand the perfect form of 
government to be and how things 

1224
01:13:04,440 --> 01:13:06,720
are supposed to be happening. 
When was it really? 

1225
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:08,520
That's the even in ancient 
Israel. 

1226
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:11,480
And that's precisely the 
question of not knowing the NAFI

1227
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,200
exactly. 
Yep, Yep, you have it. 

1228
01:13:14,440 --> 01:13:17,600
Do not tell me that it. 
I'm waiting for this idealized 

1229
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:20,360
period, you know. 
Exactly. 

1230
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:24,360
I think I'd argue this is the 
best period in in the history of

1231
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,720
Israel, even greater like the 
most Tor learning, the safest, 

1232
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,080
the the most. 
I mean, obviously the not 

1233
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:37,040
necessarily in terms of peace, 
but just like the the the amount

1234
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,800
of success we've had in this 
short period of time is just 

1235
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:40,760
unbelievable. 
It's just. 

1236
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:44,800
I'm thinking I'm maybe five 
years in the time of Yoshio. 

1237
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:45,920
I'm going through trying to go 
through. 

1238
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:46,960
Tanaka. 
They're short. 

1239
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:47,760
They're short. 
There's very. 

1240
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:54,880
Few periods in Tanaka that you 
could look and say Shlomo's 

1241
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,520
reign is portrayed. 
It's fascinating. 

1242
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:00,480
It's a separate discussion, but 
Shlomo's reign portrayed for two

1243
01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:03,320
chapters is this ideal. 
Like, you know, and then in 

1244
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:06,640
chapter 1011 is all comes 
crashing down, but he's making 

1245
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,280
these entanglements and he's 
marrying women and he's getting 

1246
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,400
gold and he's got this big army 
and like, wait a second, that's 

1247
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:16,160
not we, you know, And it's that 
contrast between the ideal and 

1248
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:17,840
the reality. 
I think that you mentioned 

1249
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:21,560
Vincey is precisely the the 
Tanakhi is very nuanced when it 

1250
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:24,000
does this, it's very clever. 
It tells you, here's the story. 

1251
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:26,480
There are ideal things and we 
have to appreciate them and we 

1252
01:14:26,480 --> 01:14:28,760
also have to deal with the 
reality as they are in front of 

1253
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,880
us people. 
I'm teaching giving a podcast 

1254
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:35,400
now on show team and one of the 
challenges of safer show team is

1255
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,320
it you read show team. 
Oh, everybody's horrible, 

1256
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:41,600
everybody's rotten. 
And it was quiet for 40 years, 

1257
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,720
and it was quiet for 80 years. 
And it's quiet for 40 years, 

1258
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,680
which means that for the most 
part, most of the narrative 

1259
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:52,800
space is talking about 7-8 
years, you know, and ignoring 

1260
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:57,560
these long periods of, you know,
the Chinese have been saying 

1261
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:00,440
that you live in interesting 
times, You know, that's, but the

1262
01:15:00,440 --> 01:15:03,280
doc doesn't talk about the 40 
years of quiet. 

1263
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:05,520
I'd be happy for 40 days of 
quiet. 

1264
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,120
Give me 40 days of nothing 
happening. 

1265
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,400
I think it, I think not the 
Piggy Bank on before, but I 

1266
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:18,040
think also that sometimes a 
little bit too much inspiration 

1267
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:24,280
can cause this kind of this 
idealism that you're, that 

1268
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:27,480
you're, I don't, I, I don't want
to Piggy Bank off before, but 

1269
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:31,680
but you know, there's a, there's
a, there's a cost to everything 

1270
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:34,960
in a way, you know, even even, 
you know, of course inspiration 

1271
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:39,320
is so needed, But when, when 
we're, when we're only, if we're

1272
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:42,640
only focused on inspiration with
yeshiva students, the problem 

1273
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,280
becomes, is that there becomes a
little bit of an enchanted 

1274
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:49,200
Judaism and that enchanted 
Judaism doesn't square well with

1275
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:51,960
sometimes reality. 
And that comes back to our 

1276
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,640
question of inspiration versus. 
I didn't want to do it but it 

1277
01:15:55,640 --> 01:16:02,560
just. 
OK. 

1278
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:03,840
Yeah. 
All right. 

1279
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:04,520
Yep. 
OK. 

1280
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:10,480
So we want to know if you can 
delve into the three key reasons

1281
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:14,720
that you've identified why 
modern readers struggle to 

1282
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:16,800
connect with the writings of the
prophets. 

1283
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:20,480
So let me ask a question first. 
I answer quickly. 

1284
01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:23,360
When's the last time you took a 
book of Navi out and just read 

1285
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:28,480
it plain? 
Well, I I just did it today. 

1286
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:29,480
Today. 
You did it today. 

1287
01:16:29,480 --> 01:16:31,000
You took it to Vadya. 
You went to share. 

1288
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:31,800
You took it to Vadya. 
You can. 

1289
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:33,160
Get a. 
Vadya. 

1290
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:39,840
OK, Fancy. 
Over the weekend I oh I did well

1291
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:44,000
eha eha 4 tissue mouth. 
Four tissue mouth, Yeah. 

1292
01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:49,120
So we do have, of course, these 
historic, these calendarical, 

1293
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:53,240
you know, you have to read this 
now, you know, feel the need. 

1294
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:55,800
And we get into a brief 
understanding of a, you know, 

1295
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:59,480
Doctor Siegel's book is 
fascinating and amazing on it. 

1296
01:16:59,480 --> 01:17:02,800
You didn't say I couldn't plug 
other people's books so. 

1297
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:05,360
Absolutely. 
We'd love to have our own. 

1298
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:07,240
We'd love to have we. 
Want to get all these? 

1299
01:17:07,440 --> 01:17:08,760
Great. 
People. 

1300
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:14,400
So I think most people don't 
look at the books as they said, 

1301
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:17,400
as they sort of, well, they're 
there and they respect them too 

1302
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:19,920
much. 
But I think there are three, 

1303
01:17:22,480 --> 01:17:26,960
three issues that prevent people
from even approaching the books.

1304
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:33,840
The 1st is a sense of relevance.
OK, I spoke in Toronto. 

1305
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:35,920
I was privileged to speak in 
Toronto the end of June, 

1306
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:40,960
beginning of July in several, 
but taken as it I remember 

1307
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:42,320
saying, OK, I have this book 
coming out. 

1308
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:48,000
If I gave a sheer entitled the 
Naviol 10 people would show up. 

1309
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:55,080
If I give a sheer entitled The 
Naviol on October 7th, as it 

1310
01:17:55,080 --> 01:18:00,520
turned out, I was packing the 
place because we look for 

1311
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:03,160
relevance in everything that we 
do. 

1312
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:07,920
Why is this important to us? 
And I remember a friend said to 

1313
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:12,480
me, this is what you have to 
write about yo avadhya Mika. 

1314
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:16,800
And I responded to him, and this
is only two months ago. 

1315
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:21,400
The old describes an invasion of
the land of Israel by opposing 

1316
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:25,120
forces. 
Ovadia describes betrayal of the

1317
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:27,720
Jewish people by people who are 
supposed to be their friends and

1318
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,960
allies. 
And Mika is adamant that these 

1319
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:34,760
invasions are taking place 
because of a breakdown of the 

1320
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:38,440
social cohesion among the people
living there at the time. 

1321
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:42,440
How is this not relevant? 
You're in reality right now. 

1322
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:47,840
Very much the reality. 
So we don't see them as 

1323
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:51,400
relevant. 1-2 we don't know the 
history. 

1324
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:54,680
We don't. 
Most people's Navi learning ends

1325
01:18:54,680 --> 01:19:00,200
at Yoshua Shafti, maybe Shmuel. 
Very few people know, know and 

1326
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:04,120
I'm going to underline bold, 
repeat that word, know the 

1327
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:07,360
history of Saifer Mullah team 
where all these Navi spoke. 

1328
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:12,880
And that's why in both my books,
both in Nacham Kabak Zafania and

1329
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,840
then you all about me, I tried 
to give the historical 

1330
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:17,720
background. 
I spent 50 pages on what do you 

1331
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:19,680
need to know before you even 
approach these? 

1332
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:27,240
And so pulling the Naveen out of
off the shelf without any 

1333
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:33,520
historical background is doesn't
do justice to the Navidad 

1334
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:35,040
prevents us from understanding 
it. 

1335
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:38,440
The person who would disagree 
with me was Nachama Leibowitz. 

1336
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:42,080
The Khama Lewis had a famous 
saying in talking with the Book 

1337
01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:44,600
of Yona. 
You don't need to know when Yona

1338
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:50,760
lived ninves, the New York's the
Tokyo OK as that was her phrase.

1339
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:56,480
You don't need to know the 
historical backgrounds for how 

1340
01:19:56,480 --> 01:20:03,160
the what the Naveen are doing. 
You compare and I'll say this 

1341
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:05,680
gently. 
Most people who've read 

1342
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:08,160
Nachama's works on the Nabi 
Mahfroni find that they're 

1343
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:13,600
they're not at the same level of
Rav Unterman and others. 

1344
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:16,880
So if I'm Unterman and others, 
they talk about, they're not at 

1345
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,240
the same level of her commentary
on the Torah because they she 

1346
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:22,840
doesn't do this. 
She just what does corruption 

1347
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:23,920
mean? 
We'll talk, wait to meet. 

1348
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:24,920
I'm going to ask that question 
again. 

1349
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,240
What is the word? 
So your worship, what does 

1350
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,120
worshiping idols mean? 
Don't worship idols. 

1351
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:31,440
Idols are bad. 
What does that mean? 

1352
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,440
Why did people worship by this? 
What was the background? 

1353
01:20:35,440 --> 01:20:38,160
The idol worship in Yeshiao is 
very different than the idol 

1354
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:39,480
worship of Nahl. 
And we don't have that 

1355
01:20:39,480 --> 01:20:42,240
historical thing. 
So the first is we don't feel 

1356
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:47,720
the relevant because we don't 
be, we don't have the historical

1357
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:50,800
background. 
And see, most importantly, I 

1358
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:55,280
asked you about what books of 
now that you've read, how many 

1359
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:57,080
of you, how many times you've 
taken off a good book of 

1360
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:59,040
Shakespeare or Milton off the 
shelf? 

1361
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:02,080
Only when we had to in high 
school. 

1362
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:05,400
Only when we had to, and it's 
almost inapproachable. 

1363
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:09,160
The language is it's so remote 
to us. 

1364
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:15,200
It's it's so far away. 
We don't even appreciate the, 

1365
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:17,680
you know, what they were trying 
to say anymore. 

1366
01:21:18,440 --> 01:21:19,800
And then you have to have 
teachers who have to teach you 

1367
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:21,000
the language and try to teach 
you. 

1368
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:24,760
You have to teach the language 
and then try to teach why this 

1369
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:30,800
is somehow relevant. 
I two years ago I had a harusal 

1370
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:37,040
with A1 of my students on 
Paradise Lost, which is among 

1371
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:41,800
other things, an interpretation 
of Ghanaian and how Milton 

1372
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:44,240
portrays what happens to 
Ghanaian and it was a 

1373
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,440
fascinating and as well as an 
understanding of the nature of 

1374
01:21:47,440 --> 01:21:49,000
evil. 
Where does evil come from? 

1375
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:52,040
Milton has his own Protestant 
viewpoint, but the point of 

1376
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,960
being it took forever just to 
get through the lines of the of 

1377
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:59,720
the poetry in order to get to 
and then trying to understand it

1378
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:03,360
before we could make a parish an
understanding of what was how he

1379
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:04,880
was understanding safer brace 
sheet. 

1380
01:22:05,480 --> 01:22:09,280
So when he was that removed his 
you removed historically removed

1381
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:12,360
from relevance and you removed 
from the language, not just the 

1382
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:14,760
language of the literary tools. 
It's poetry. 

1383
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:20,360
What poetic devices being used. 
Then you have a very challenging

1384
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:24,200
task, which is what I was trying
to at least trying to build the 

1385
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:28,720
bridge to make it easier for 
students to and readers to 

1386
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:34,440
understand. 
Which actually leads in to what 

1387
01:22:34,440 --> 01:22:38,040
you did in the book was you 
provided a brief history of 

1388
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:45,080
Israel and Yehuda of Israel and 
Yehuda and you, you gave a 

1389
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:47,240
pretty, I'm not sure you'll be 
able to. 

1390
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:50,200
I mean, it's, it's a lot to to 
do it on a set, but if you can 

1391
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:53,680
just give the basic outline of 
that history and how you showed 

1392
01:22:53,680 --> 01:23:00,080
how this history opens up 
understanding the the Naveen 

1393
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:05,480
better. 
So I'm going to start not from I

1394
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:08,480
start from the beginning of the 
divided monarchy when the Yehuda

1395
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:15,120
and Israel split. 
I'm going to start with year 

1396
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:18,880
841. 
OK, 841 BC. 

1397
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:21,640
There's a new king in Israel 
named Yahoo. 

1398
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,520
He's just overthrown the Akhav 
dynasty. 

1399
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:31,440
And in the South at the same 
time you have Italia coming to 

1400
01:23:31,440 --> 01:23:35,920
power and she's killing off the 
sons of Beethoven. 

1401
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:39,880
But then his her, the one 
remaining son, the one who is 

1402
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:44,240
spirited away is then reassumes 
that the throne and that's 

1403
01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:46,800
Yoash. 
And you have this 100 year 

1404
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:50,600
period of actual of stability 
between the northern and the 

1405
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:53,960
southern kingdoms. 
The Tanakh describes that the 

1406
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:57,880
northern Kingdom was being 
picked on from the side by Aram 

1407
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:03,120
and the southern Kingdom was 
slowly growing. 

1408
01:24:03,440 --> 01:24:07,280
But by the time you get to the 
year 750, these are the two most

1409
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:12,880
powerful kingdoms in the area. 
And it should have been the 

1410
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:15,600
golden age. 
In fact, Ben Gurion once that 

1411
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:19,040
wouldn't once asked if you could
be any king in Tanakh, who would

1412
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:21,880
you be? 
And his response was, I want to 

1413
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:26,360
be Uzia. 
He's king for 52 years, but he 

1414
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:28,320
builds up the Negev, he 
strengthens it. 

1415
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:35,600
There's no wars mentioned. 
He really is a 52 years of 

1416
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:37,280
stability. 
And when you have stability, you

1417
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:40,240
can grow. 
And archaeologically we see 

1418
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:45,280
signs of this. 
We see a the pots are all become

1419
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:48,760
standard sizes, which means that
they're now involved in trade 

1420
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:53,320
and we see pots before the 9th 
century before and they're all 

1421
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:56,360
handmade things that you store 
things in the house. 

1422
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,360
But also you have these large 
collections of posture, exactly 

1423
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:01,440
the same sizes, same weight, 
same measure. 

1424
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:03,640
And you can see that we're 
engaged in trade. 

1425
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:07,000
The country's getting richer. 
And here's the challenge. 

1426
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:12,280
This is when Yesh Iowan almost 
first appear there at should be 

1427
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:15,760
at the height, the pinnacle of 
what we talked about an ideal 

1428
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:19,560
with age, right? 
750 should be a great time to be

1429
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:21,720
alive, whether you're in the 
north or the South. 

1430
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:26,680
And yet you have divisions. 
OK, And yet Jews find something 

1431
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:29,400
to fight about. 
They're divided geographically. 

1432
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:33,920
They're divided religiously. 
The north is still under 

1433
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,400
syncretic. 
We worship God through golden 

1434
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:38,160
calves. 
They're not quite worshipping. 

1435
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:44,440
It's not a pure monotheism. 
You see lots and lots of these 

1436
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:47,480
small little idols throughout 
the northern part. 

1437
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:50,480
You see very few in from this 
point of time, idols in the 

1438
01:25:50,480 --> 01:25:53,240
southern, they're discovered 
through archaeology. 

1439
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,440
They're and most importantly, 
they're divided socially. 

1440
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:05,680
There's a social gap that's 
growing that is going to 

1441
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:11,160
threaten their the very nature 
of the two kings, the two 

1442
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:14,560
kingdoms. 
And you can see it actually 

1443
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:16,160
again through archaeology, which
is fascinating. 

1444
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:20,640
This is, you know, we look, we 
see houses in Samaria in the 9th

1445
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:25,960
century are all the same size 
houses in Samaria in the 8th 

1446
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:29,760
century, you have some very big 
mansions and some very small 

1447
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:34,360
hovels and that shows a social 
hierarchy. 

1448
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:38,360
Social hierarchy. 
You see this start to split. 

1449
01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:40,960
You also see it and how much 
more so for the people in the 

1450
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:46,080
country as rich land owners and 
what we would call today, 

1451
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:51,640
multinational corporations take 
over, you know, the means of 

1452
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:54,760
production and the this is what 
the prophets describe, what we 

1453
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:57,000
talk about nowadays. 
Nowadays we talk about, you 

1454
01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:00,120
know, multinational corporations
controlling so much, but the 

1455
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:01,360
prophets are describing the same
thing. 

1456
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,360
You have a few rich land owners 
who have bought up all the 

1457
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:06,240
fields. 
The Jeffersonian ideal, as it 

1458
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:09,360
were, of everybody has an 
independent piece of land, which

1459
01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:12,240
we see throughout the Torah 
emphasized, seems to have 

1460
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:15,760
disappeared. 
And then at this point in time, 

1461
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:20,400
the Assyrians show up. 
And this becomes if you deal 

1462
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:23,200
with the Assyrian threat 
correctly, you'll survive. 

1463
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:26,160
If you don't deal with the 
Etherian threat correctly, 

1464
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:30,360
you're going to disappear. 
And I date all three of the 

1465
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:33,040
Naveen to this period. 
But we'll talk about what's more

1466
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:35,760
important is what, how am I 
supposed to deal with this 

1467
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:40,720
Etherian threat? 
And unfortunately, both in the 

1468
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,080
north and the South, in the 
north, they engage in this 

1469
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:46,240
series of assassinations. 
Do we make pieces here? 

1470
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:48,160
Do we fight these series? 
We make pieces here as we fight 

1471
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:51,040
these series, Back off gets 
replaced with Akaka. 

1472
01:27:51,480 --> 01:27:53,560
But it's special. 
But it's based by, oh, yeah, I 

1473
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:54,800
didn't do that in the right 
order. 

1474
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:56,720
But you can see back and forth 
every couple years. 

1475
01:27:56,720 --> 01:28:00,080
It's a very unstable situation. 
And the Assyrians, common, 

1476
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:02,400
they're picking off the northern
Kingdom until Venture directs. 

1477
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:08,880
So in the South, the Assyrians 
really would have left the South

1478
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:10,840
alone. 
You shall talk about it in 

1479
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:14,080
Chapters 7 and 8:00 and 9:00. 
The Assyrians would have left 

1480
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:17,880
the South alone, but the 
northern Kingdom threatens the 

1481
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:20,360
southern Kingdom and says, are 
you coming to fight with us, yes

1482
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:25,880
or no? 
And the southerners do something

1483
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:27,840
that they're not supposed to do.
The king is Akaz. 

1484
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:29,680
It's described in the very Yaman
Kafka. 

1485
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:36,040
He doesn't go instead of siding 
with the north, which is what 

1486
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,480
the northerners want, or staying
neutral, which is what Yeshio is

1487
01:28:39,480 --> 01:28:41,680
begging him. 
There are two chapters of the 

1488
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:43,920
show which is saying stay 
neutral, you'll be fine. 

1489
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:46,800
The the Assyrians will pass by 
us, we can survive. 

1490
01:28:47,480 --> 01:28:50,320
He brings the Assyrians in. 
He signs. 

1491
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:53,600
He surrenders to the Assyrians, 
says Less surrenders 

1492
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:56,120
religiously, but also surrenders
religiously. 

1493
01:28:56,120 --> 01:29:00,000
He brings an Assyrian altar into
the bait to Mcdoch begins the 

1494
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:04,240
first person to do that his son 
Fiskel tries to clean up the 

1495
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:07,160
situation. 
But then Fiskel then says, well,

1496
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:09,280
if I can get rid of the Syrians 
religiously, I can get rid of 

1497
01:29:09,280 --> 01:29:13,280
them politically and he starts a
I'll fated war against the 

1498
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:16,680
Assyrians in seven O 3 that 
leads to the near destruction of

1499
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:20,720
the community in seven O 1. 
That's the history. 

1500
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:26,320
But what makes the our prophets 
special is they look and they 

1501
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:31,400
say this isn't bad politics, the
bad external politics. 

1502
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:34,120
If I'd only signed this deal, if
I'd only gone to war this way, 

1503
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:39,560
if I'd only done this are 
reflective of a deeper in a rot 

1504
01:29:39,560 --> 01:29:42,320
because of the social problems 
you've caused yourself. 

1505
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:48,800
And that's precisely the point, 
because if we're talking 

1506
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:51,360
politics, I don't know that 
anybody could have withstood the

1507
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:52,880
Assyrians. 
Assyrians are a tremendous 

1508
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:55,160
empire. 
They're possibly the world's 

1509
01:29:55,160 --> 01:29:58,720
first real empire because they 
expand from the fertile 

1510
01:29:58,720 --> 01:30:03,760
president venture in 671-6863. 
They're 1000 miles down the 

1511
01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:06,760
Nile. 
That's huge in the space of the 

1512
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:11,400
ancient world when you're moving
soldiers by foot, 10s of 

1513
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:13,640
thousands of soldiers by foot 
didn't get that far to that sort

1514
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:15,720
of control. 
Politically. 

1515
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,600
You couldn't stop. 
But the that's not what we're 

1516
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:22,600
supposed to be focused on. 
And it's that tension between 

1517
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:24,560
the king and the prophet. 
The kings are worried about the 

1518
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:27,240
politics and the prophets are 
saying you're ignoring the more 

1519
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:32,080
deeper issues, the social 
injustice, the judicial 

1520
01:30:32,080 --> 01:30:34,920
corruption, everything that the 
prophets are screaming about. 

1521
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:39,320
But what I find inspiring with 
that is because if you solve 

1522
01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:41,680
those problems, the other 
problems go away. 

1523
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:46,920
OK, that really if you do the 
small things that the Naveen 

1524
01:30:46,920 --> 01:30:50,120
masks be just be honest, pray 
sincerely. 

1525
01:30:51,480 --> 01:30:56,600
Everything else, it disappears. 
And it's not an easy message to 

1526
01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:59,040
sell because everyone, as we 
talked about earlier, everyone's

1527
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,120
that quick fix. 
So to decide with them or to 

1528
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:02,560
decide with them. 
How do I put my armies? 

1529
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:06,480
Tell me about it. 
And God is saying those armies 

1530
01:31:06,480 --> 01:31:11,520
are built on the backs of 
farmers and the tremendous cost,

1531
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,080
you know, you raise taxes to put
an army out. 

1532
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:16,480
These are these are the 
challenges that you're not 

1533
01:31:16,480 --> 01:31:19,760
dealing with. 
So all these profits have these 

1534
01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:21,720
different messages. 
They're coming at it in 

1535
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:23,240
different ways. 
By the way, is one of the thing 

1536
01:31:23,240 --> 01:31:29,640
that's fascinating. 203 profits.
Yoel and Mika at least are two 

1537
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:31,680
of the three only successful 
profits. 

1538
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:36,640
It's not one's got to give 
that's we don't get many 

1539
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:41,400
successful profits in Tanakhs. 
OK, They generally in your first

1540
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:44,680
book I wrote, you know, the port
Stefania being a prophet is not 

1541
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:48,240
a job for a nice Jewish boy. 
It's not a good you wouldn't 

1542
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:52,040
want your kid to be one, but 
they're successful. 

1543
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:54,800
And that's one of the questions 
that I try to ask in each one of

1544
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:57,480
the discussions of each of the 
Naveen. 

1545
01:31:57,480 --> 01:32:01,560
Excellent. 
So. 

1546
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:04,080
That's your history and that's 
what you have to know to, to 

1547
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:07,640
just come back to what you said,
just to summarize, you have to 

1548
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:09,360
know this history when you read 
these books. 

1549
01:32:09,480 --> 01:32:13,480
And because we don't have that 
background, I tried to do it in 

1550
01:32:13,480 --> 01:32:15,360
10 minutes. 
I apologize if I went too long. 

1551
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:21,640
I'm, you know, the first 
section, it takes like 60 pages 

1552
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:24,440
just to we have to have the 
history and what's all the 

1553
01:32:24,440 --> 01:32:27,320
forces that are at play to 
understand what the Naveen are 

1554
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,160
up against. 
And we're hoping that the 

1555
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:31,840
viewers will pick up the book 
and read it for themselves, God 

1556
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:36,320
willing. 
So the prophet UOL, we're going 

1557
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:38,840
to get into this story. 
Why? 

1558
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:42,920
Why do you feel that this is 
particularly difficult to 

1559
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:45,280
interpret? 
And what are the various 

1560
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:47,880
opinions about when and where he
prophesied? 

1561
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:51,640
And what perspective does your 
book offer on the issue? 

1562
01:32:56,480 --> 01:32:59,560
If I said just go through the 
opinions quickly, Rashi says 

1563
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:03,160
that he is the son of Shmuel 
Hanavi and he's quoting a 

1564
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:09,920
Midrashian, the mid Baraba. 
And Reddock says he takes place 

1565
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:18,240
in the 8th century in the time 
of of Yehuram and or Yehoshifat.

1566
01:33:18,280 --> 01:33:20,800
And you have 15 different 
opinions. 

1567
01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:24,920
And I keep getting reminded of 
what something was saying. 

1568
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,600
My teacher of Viaco Maidan Shuja
likes to repeat. 

1569
01:33:28,440 --> 01:33:32,600
I know of 15 reasons why root is
read on Shavuot. 

1570
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:35,720
I only know one reason why we 
read Estran Purt. 

1571
01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:41,160
But the idea being when you get 
this multiplicity of opinions, 

1572
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:44,840
it's really a we don't know. 
Yeah. 

1573
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:48,600
Yeah. 
And then in chapter 1 he 

1574
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:51,080
describes an invasion of 
locusts. 

1575
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:53,760
And in chapter 2 he describes an
invasion by an army. 

1576
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,200
And again the Mafarshim are 
divided. 

1577
01:33:57,200 --> 01:34:04,160
He's describing 2 invasions, an 
invasion by an army, which is 

1578
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:09,680
the approach of the Barbonell 
for example. 

1579
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:13,000
And the locusts are a metaphor 
for the for the invading army. 

1580
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:17,120
Or like modern scholars think 
the description of the army 

1581
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:18,840
invading is only a metaphor for 
the locust. 

1582
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:20,360
So we don't know what the 
problem is. 

1583
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:25,120
What makes you all fascinating 
is he spends half of his book 

1584
01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:28,640
describing the problem. 
He calls the people to Chuva. 

1585
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:37,160
When that happens, the invader 
disappears, the land is restored

1586
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:42,120
and then he sends spends 2 
chapters discussing, I'm just 

1587
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:45,400
doing this on one foot, the 
spiritual revival among the 

1588
01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:48,560
people and ultimately the 
judgement day of all the 

1589
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:51,160
nations. 
The Yom Hashem that he 

1590
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:55,120
describes, OK, the day of the 
Lord is a prophetic phrase to 

1591
01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:56,960
describe this final judgement 
day. 

1592
01:34:58,240 --> 01:35:03,280
And the book ends very happily 
and it's we don't get books that

1593
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:05,320
end too. 
We don't get happy, but endings.

1594
01:35:05,320 --> 01:35:07,920
It's not too often. 
It's a wonderful thing. 

1595
01:35:08,720 --> 01:35:12,000
And I just want to suggest 2 
lessons from you all that are 

1596
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:16,040
the first is that he doesn't 
mention sin. 

1597
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:21,640
He's one of the few of him who 
doesn't say you're doing wrong. 

1598
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:25,440
You're not praying sincerely 
Ishaya al khafted your social 

1599
01:35:25,440 --> 01:35:30,800
justice issues, ammos olivesef 
Rammos your problems with your 

1600
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:35,120
how you serve Hashem, your 
dishonor, your just your lack of

1601
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:37,600
loyalty, fidelity. 
Hoshea, there's no sin 

1602
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:40,480
mentioned. 
You're, I think, is trying to 

1603
01:35:40,480 --> 01:35:44,880
articulate a theology that this 
says I don't automatically have 

1604
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:50,760
to look to beat myself, to 
flagellate myself in order to 

1605
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:56,400
approach the show. 
We don't always have to beat 

1606
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:58,600
ourselves over the head every 
time something goes wrong. 

1607
01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:05,040
And it's a comment of the of the
Ron Ban who says Yol's different

1608
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:09,520
than the locusts in Egypt 
because Yol's locusts, locusts 

1609
01:36:09,720 --> 01:36:12,960
happen. 
Locusts are a part of the world 

1610
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:15,760
we live in. 
And just because you keep the 

1611
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:18,040
torn and developing this, just 
because you keep the 

1612
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:22,520
tournaments, so it doesn't mean 
it automatically life will be. 

1613
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:27,120
Dandy. 
Ideal, like and perfect and, you

1614
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:30,320
know, circuses and candy canes. 
It doesn't. 

1615
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:33,960
It's not the world we live in. 
And Yol's described, and I 

1616
01:36:34,400 --> 01:36:38,040
developed this idea that what 
Yol's trying to do is he's, you 

1617
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:41,480
don't have to be in this. 
How do I deal with the world 

1618
01:36:41,480 --> 01:36:43,680
that I live in? 
We talked with this tension that

1619
01:36:43,680 --> 01:36:46,840
exists between we have this 
ideal world and this real world.

1620
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:48,240
You also not be in the real 
world. 

1621
01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:49,920
There are locusts. 
Locusts will come into this 

1622
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:51,320
world. 
If you live in the ancient Near 

1623
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:53,040
East, this is a tremendous 
threat. 

1624
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:56,240
Until recently, we didn't 
understand what locusts were and

1625
01:36:56,240 --> 01:36:58,720
how they appeared. 
They were grasshoppers. 

1626
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:02,040
But if under the right level of 
humidity, the right temperature,

1627
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:03,920
they turn into these massive 
swarms. 

1628
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:07,200
Nowadays we have satellite 
tracking and we can deal with 

1629
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:10,560
them very early on in their, in 
the formation of the horde. 

1630
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:14,320
And Barack Hashem, we live in a 
world that has these 

1631
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:16,560
technological advances. 
I'm not. 

1632
01:37:18,120 --> 01:37:20,960
But the first thing is that 
Yul's, and what makes Yul unique

1633
01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:24,440
is he's successful, I think 
because he doesn't focus on 

1634
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:26,880
you're doing this wrong and 
you're doing this wrong, you're 

1635
01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:29,040
doing this wrong. 
He says we have a problem. 

1636
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:32,800
Here's how we pray, here's how 
we get together, and here's how 

1637
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:36,120
we approach Hashem. 
And we are humble and we know 

1638
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:37,400
that we lie in nachem. 
God. 

1639
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:40,680
Maybe God will forgive us, maybe
God won't. 

1640
01:37:40,680 --> 01:37:43,440
We don't come there. 
We know that there's a 

1641
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:45,880
possibility this prayer will not
work. 

1642
01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:48,400
And it's precisely that humility
that allows them to be 

1643
01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:51,200
successful. 
I also think there's one other 

1644
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:56,040
thing here, which is why then 
mention the Yomashem at the end 

1645
01:37:56,040 --> 01:37:58,880
of the story? 
Because the old views the 

1646
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:01,320
invasion as the Yomashem at the 
beginning and it becomes 

1647
01:38:01,320 --> 01:38:06,080
Yomashem. 
And but what Yoel's doing is we 

1648
01:38:06,080 --> 01:38:10,320
get we all have problems, right?
But those problems are easier to

1649
01:38:10,320 --> 01:38:12,120
deal with when we see them in 
the larger picture. 

1650
01:38:12,960 --> 01:38:17,480
What Yoel does, it says this 
small invasion can be the 

1651
01:38:17,480 --> 01:38:22,080
opportunity to a much if you 
view it as part of the larger 

1652
01:38:22,080 --> 01:38:26,400
picture of redemption of Gula, 
then this small invasion that 

1653
01:38:26,400 --> 01:38:28,280
we're facing, which for the 
people who live at the time was 

1654
01:38:28,280 --> 01:38:30,920
very large. 
If you're threatened of lack of 

1655
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:33,320
food, you know, and that 
substance that's you're not 

1656
01:38:33,320 --> 01:38:37,960
concerned about anything else. 
But by writing the book the way 

1657
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:43,600
it does, Y'all expands our 
vision and says this is a small 

1658
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:47,120
little bump, but it's leads 
toward a greater future and that

1659
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:49,120
helps people deal with the 
problem they have now. 

1660
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:51,480
It's a very uplifting and happy 
book. 

1661
01:38:51,480 --> 01:38:55,080
I enjoy y'all. 
I enjoy reading Y'all very much.

1662
01:38:56,960 --> 01:39:00,360
And it's for that reason I think
he's thrown in as when we talk 

1663
01:39:00,360 --> 01:39:02,840
about the Haftarot for the Yemen
rhyme, we always throw in a 

1664
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:05,840
couple verses from you all 
because you all is the model for

1665
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:09,200
how to do it right. 
That's you all. 

1666
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:13,360
After this podcast, I'm gonna 
one of the things I'm taking 

1667
01:39:13,360 --> 01:39:15,320
upon myself is getting more into
Haftarot, OK? 

1668
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:20,840
OK. 
All right. 

1669
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:27,160
OK, Ovadia. 
As an introduction, could you 

1670
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:32,200
discuss the prophet Ovadia? 
Why did he express such intense 

1671
01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:35,000
anger towards Edom? 
And what are the different 

1672
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:37,360
scholarly views regarding the 
date of the book, its 

1673
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:40,000
authorship, and its intended 
audience? 

1674
01:39:42,160 --> 01:39:45,480
Ovadia is an attack on Edom that
there's no question about. 

1675
01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:51,080
It actually is one of the few 
books where or Naveen where he 

1676
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:54,360
here's the punishment comes 
first and let me tell you what 

1677
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:57,560
he did wrong afterwards. 
It's almost like he can't wait 

1678
01:39:57,640 --> 01:40:01,960
to go against Eddom. 
Ben, you mentioned you were the 

1679
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:05,440
sheer when we were talking 
earlier before the podcast that 

1680
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:11,080
once we say Eddom, this creates 
in the Jewish ear echoes of 

1681
01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:15,320
Asaph, right? 
We go back to the long history 

1682
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:18,480
of the relationship between 
Asaph and Yaakov, and that 

1683
01:40:18,480 --> 01:40:22,040
obviously colors our 
relationships with the country 

1684
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:28,400
of Eddom. 
We have Edom attacking us many 

1685
01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:33,040
times in the Mulakhim Dereyamim.
We also have actually in. 

1686
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:39,680
However, in Mulakhim Aleph in 
Udala, it describes how Yoav 

1687
01:40:40,040 --> 01:40:42,760
goes and almost wipes out the 
country of Edom and rabbinic 

1688
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:48,040
thought is furious with him. 
OK, it's this is not acceptable.

1689
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:55,680
Similarly in in Devere Yamim 
Cafe, the king at the time of 

1690
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:59,920
Machika takes 10,000 men of Edom
and throws them off a Cliff to 

1691
01:40:59,920 --> 01:41:04,560
which the Midrash says This is 
why Binesharal get a galloped 

1692
01:41:05,480 --> 01:41:08,240
straight out. 
Why did Binesharal get galloped?

1693
01:41:08,240 --> 01:41:13,320
Because of the cruelty, sort of.
But this all reflects this cycle

1694
01:41:13,320 --> 01:41:15,560
of violence that exists between 
Binesharan at home. 

1695
01:41:16,080 --> 01:41:19,120
And it's not surprisingly that 
when we talk about Adam, Adam is

1696
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:22,480
attacked more times by Edbund 
and Naveem than anyone else. 

1697
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:27,640
Yuhasco has a whole list. 
Yuhas has a whole list of Nivot 

1698
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:31,560
Hamim, the prophecies against 
nations and scholarly terms, the

1699
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:35,120
oracles against nations. 
And everybody gets their fair 

1700
01:41:35,120 --> 01:41:39,440
share of comeuptance near meow. 
But they didn't give dedicated 

1701
01:41:39,440 --> 01:41:41,920
and that let me give another 
chapter to Edo. 

1702
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:44,720
OK, you guys gives another 
chapter against Edo and you 

1703
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:46,200
shall gives another chapter 
against Edo. 

1704
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:50,600
What if these there's small 
little Kingdom on the South, but

1705
01:41:50,640 --> 01:41:53,000
rabbinic thought blew them up. 
And then once you say Adam is 

1706
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:56,520
Christianity and the Roman 
Empire, then well, there's no 

1707
01:41:56,520 --> 01:42:01,480
stopping how bad Adam can be. 
So there's two approaches, I 

1708
01:42:01,480 --> 01:42:03,800
think, to understanding our 
dislike of Edo. 

1709
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:10,320
The one approach which I adopt 
in the book is that Adam becomes

1710
01:42:10,320 --> 01:42:19,040
the symbol of betrayal because 
we don't have to get along with 

1711
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:22,080
everybody, but we always hope 
that we get along with our 

1712
01:42:22,080 --> 01:42:26,080
family. 
And we've already saw that in 

1713
01:42:26,080 --> 01:42:27,880
the Partia that we've read 
recently. 

1714
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:30,920
We turned to the king of Adam. 
We're brothers, remember? 

1715
01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:33,160
We used you should be helpful 
towards us. 

1716
01:42:34,360 --> 01:42:40,680
And Edelman's behavior towards 
us doesn't just violate bond of 

1717
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:45,640
shared humanity, it violates the
bond of brotherhood, of family 

1718
01:42:45,640 --> 01:42:46,760
ties. 
It should not. 

1719
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:50,720
Those should never be sundered. 
And so Alvadia is like, how can 

1720
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:53,320
you do this to your own brother?
How can you do this to your own 

1721
01:42:53,320 --> 01:42:57,520
brother? 
And the crimes are actually, for

1722
01:42:57,520 --> 01:43:01,440
the most part, you stood by, you
didn't come to our help. 

1723
01:43:01,480 --> 01:43:04,880
You didn't you laughed while 
Jerusalem was being invaded. 

1724
01:43:05,600 --> 01:43:08,960
As a side point, most modern 
scholars assume that this is 

1725
01:43:08,960 --> 01:43:12,320
referring to the destruction of 
the Beita Migdash in 586 by 

1726
01:43:12,320 --> 01:43:18,400
Bevelle and in fact to Helium 
Kuflam and Zion. 

1727
01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:21,000
The song the part of team that 
we don't sing. 

1728
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,360
If you remember we you know when
we get to camp and we sing all 

1729
01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:29,080
in our out Bevelle OK, the 
moving soon we leave out the 

1730
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:32,360
last 2-3. 
You know, Sahor Hashem livne 

1731
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:35,360
don't but your Shalom remember I
don't tell you when you said 

1732
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:38,040
there aru aru Adisaba, tear it 
down, tear it down. 

1733
01:43:38,040 --> 01:43:46,080
So most scholars think this is 
Ovadia lives at the time of the 

1734
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:49,440
destruction of the Qurbat. 
Most scholars both Mufarshim 

1735
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:52,840
Rashi will play some earlier 
Rashi places as the student of 

1736
01:43:52,840 --> 01:43:56,000
Akhav, this rabbinic tradition. 
I have a guy named Ovadia here. 

1737
01:43:56,000 --> 01:44:00,400
I have a guy named Ovadia here 
as Akhav's Prime Minister, his 

1738
01:44:00,400 --> 01:44:02,560
assistant. 
However you wish to define 

1739
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:05,480
Ovadiaus, this must be the same 
guise rabbinic tradition. 

1740
01:44:06,360 --> 01:44:09,000
Again, when you have these 15 
opinions, I go back to what we 

1741
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:10,920
said about yo when you have a 
lot of opinions. 

1742
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:14,320
The other problem is, of course,
how many times is Rushlam 

1743
01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:17,160
invaded in Tanakh? 
We always remember the last 

1744
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:20,160
time, which is the destruction, 
but they were invaded I think 

1745
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:25,320
7-8 times in the Mulakhim alone.
So, and in fact the very Yamin, 

1746
01:44:27,120 --> 01:44:33,200
I try to figure out where Ovadia
lives based on the clues given 

1747
01:44:33,200 --> 01:44:36,240
in the text. 
I place them again in the center

1748
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:39,960
in the year 733, when the 
Northern Kingdom Saxons, the 

1749
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:45,880
Rishalaim Deverehyami Mukhafet, 
describes how the Edomites would

1750
01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:49,920
stand outside and slowly just 
pick off the travellers and from

1751
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,800
the side, which is very much 
similar to what's described in 

1752
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:56,560
Ovadia. 
But if Bahia's first point is, 

1753
01:44:56,640 --> 01:45:00,000
this is a betrayal of brotherly 
ties, and that's so much more 

1754
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:01,600
painful. 
That's why we have this. 

1755
01:45:04,120 --> 01:45:05,600
Recently I've begun to rethink 
my thinking. 

1756
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:10,600
It's not in the book, but. 
And that is whenever Edom is 

1757
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:14,720
mentioned in Tana, it appears 
several times in then the vua. 

1758
01:45:15,720 --> 01:45:18,400
It's always Edom 1st and the 
rest of the world second. 

1759
01:45:19,680 --> 01:45:23,800
It's I just saw this in Ishail 
Lamadalid. 

1760
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:31,360
OK, Hashem says he's upset with 
the nations of the world, and I 

1761
01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:34,000
want you to fill in the blank 
here of Tabishma Kirby. 

1762
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:38,560
I've lifted up my sword into 
heaven, but Shamayim ine al was 

1763
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:43,600
the opposite of heaven. 
Shamaya, man, earth, earth 

1764
01:45:44,000 --> 01:45:48,120
should be, should be Eris or 
even Adama. 

1765
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:52,840
But therefore, I'm going to 
bring my sword down on Edom. 

1766
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:56,240
Oh, interesting. 
Well, it plays on Adama though. 

1767
01:45:56,760 --> 01:45:58,520
Adama. 
That's exactly what Septuagint 

1768
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:01,200
does. 
It's ezun takes out ADOM and it 

1769
01:46:01,200 --> 01:46:04,360
puts in Adama because it assumes
that that must be what the text 

1770
01:46:04,360 --> 01:46:05,800
was. 
OK. 

1771
01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:09,960
But he does this, he shall does 
this several times and and 

1772
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:13,080
Ovadia does it as well. 
He says all of a sudden in verse

1773
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:16,880
15, I'm now going to destroy all
the nations of the world who 

1774
01:46:16,880 --> 01:46:18,720
stood against you like we were 
talking about Adam. 

1775
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:22,080
When did the Adam become the 
nations of the world? 

1776
01:46:23,480 --> 01:46:27,600
So Edom and the nation's world 
to stand against this become 

1777
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:31,160
synonymous in prophetic 
literature, which implies that 

1778
01:46:31,160 --> 01:46:37,440
there seems to be a larger 
picture and what it says if this

1779
01:46:37,440 --> 01:46:41,040
if my first read, if the 
combined the two reads is God is

1780
01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:44,640
not going to take judgement. 
He's not going to render 

1781
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:49,120
judgement only on the Irans and 
the Hezbollahs and the Hamas, 

1782
01:46:50,320 --> 01:46:53,440
but also all those people who 
stood by neutral and didn't 

1783
01:46:53,440 --> 01:46:56,440
help. 
OK that ultimately the day there

1784
01:46:56,440 --> 01:46:58,840
was that this because if that's 
what Adam did. 

1785
01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:02,920
This is what and this God is not
God knows who the the enemies 

1786
01:47:02,920 --> 01:47:05,920
are. 
But to paraphrase you know 

1787
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:09,760
another poet the deepest depths 
of power reserve for those who 

1788
01:47:09,760 --> 01:47:13,240
maintain neutrality. 
That's Dante's line, right? 

1789
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:16,480
For those who are remained 
neutrality in a time of crisis, 

1790
01:47:16,480 --> 01:47:19,360
when you when you when taught, 
when you're asked to choose 

1791
01:47:19,360 --> 01:47:23,080
between what is really good and 
evil, you cannot sit on the 

1792
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:25,520
side. 
That's not an option. 

1793
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:28,240
And that was, I think that's 
what Adam represents. 

1794
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:32,680
It's a thought, but I'll let you
read the book and come to, you 

1795
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:34,880
know, read that wrote about you.
I may have read the book 

1796
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:38,160
incorrectly, but I'm always open
for discussion. 

1797
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:42,000
And it's a very short, it's the 
shortest book in Tanakh. 

1798
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:44,520
So for all of you. 
There's no excuses. 

1799
01:47:44,520 --> 01:47:48,000
There's no excuse. 
At least I'm parsha Bashallah by

1800
01:47:48,080 --> 01:47:51,000
Islaf because it's the haftarah 
for by islaf as well. 

1801
01:47:51,480 --> 01:47:54,680
When we conclude with that list 
of kings of Edom, we then go 

1802
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:57,840
straight into the Haftarah of 
Edom. 

1803
01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:03,160
Very good. 
So the last part we want to get 

1804
01:48:03,160 --> 01:48:07,240
into is the prophet Mika. 
Oh, my favorite. 

1805
01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:09,960
What setting apart? 
I'm not allowed to say that, but

1806
01:48:09,960 --> 01:48:14,120
if you ask me what my favorite 
was, Mika is always my favorite 

1807
01:48:14,120 --> 01:48:18,720
of the the vehement now so. 
So first of all, I want to know 

1808
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:21,080
why, but also what set him 
apart? 

1809
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:23,000
What set him apart from the 
other prophets? 

1810
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:27,280
And how does his style and 
structure enhance our 

1811
01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:32,560
understanding of the book? 
Mika's 7 short chapters again, 

1812
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:40,120
these are all he lives at the 
time when I date most of the 

1813
01:48:41,080 --> 01:48:42,800
when the northern Kingdom is 
still alive. 

1814
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:49,440
It's on its last legs and the 
challenge becomes how do I you 

1815
01:48:49,440 --> 01:48:54,360
know what lessons can we learn? 
What should we be learning from 

1816
01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:58,040
this? 
He's mentioned as being part of 

1817
01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:01,960
the of kings mentions the 
northern king did also mentions 

1818
01:49:02,200 --> 01:49:07,640
Yotam Akhazen and Kiskyo, which 
is just one king short of 

1819
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:11,600
Yashao, which means he's a 
little bit after you shall and 

1820
01:49:11,600 --> 01:49:20,640
what he does is fascinating. 
He looks at is the 1st chapter 

1821
01:49:20,640 --> 01:49:24,880
is a discussion of the invasion 
of the South, like the Redock 

1822
01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:26,160
and the mall. 
We might argue this from the 

1823
01:49:26,160 --> 01:49:29,760
northern Kingdom and modern 
scholars try to date it to seven

1824
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:32,160
O 1, but they have to do a 
little bit of violence to the 

1825
01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:34,880
text because I think Samaria is 
still alive. 

1826
01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:37,920
The 733 the northern Kingdom 
invades the southern Kingdom. 

1827
01:49:37,920 --> 01:49:40,920
This is the worst. 
You know that civil war, do we 

1828
01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:43,360
fight the Assyrians just to know
they invade. 

1829
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:49,160
And he describes the suffering 
that is caused of people, of 

1830
01:49:49,160 --> 01:49:50,400
themselves. 
And then the question is what 

1831
01:49:50,400 --> 01:49:51,880
lessons should I be learning 
from this? 

1832
01:49:53,080 --> 01:49:55,600
And he has two chapters 
dedicated to corruption, which I

1833
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:59,680
find fascinating. 
In the 2nd chapter he describes 

1834
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:05,680
the corruption of the rich 
people who can are greedy. 

1835
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:11,080
They lie on their beds, they 
take people, they buy, buy up 

1836
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:14,320
fields they caught, they turn 
people into slaves. 

1837
01:50:16,440 --> 01:50:19,680
And it's so passionate, you 
know, he describes his 

1838
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:23,120
suffering. 
Mika's from Morisha and 

1839
01:50:23,120 --> 01:50:28,800
Yeshayahu is from Yushalayim. 
Morisha is a small farming 

1840
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:32,520
community and Yeshayahu is from 
the palace. 

1841
01:50:32,520 --> 01:50:35,880
He's, you know, Rabinic thought 
he's actually a cousin to the 

1842
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:37,360
kings. 
He's from the rabbinic. 

1843
01:50:37,840 --> 01:50:43,280
He's from the rabbinic, he's 
from the he's from David's 

1844
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:45,400
family. 
Just one brother off, you know, 

1845
01:50:45,400 --> 01:50:48,040
he had his brother been older, 
he would have been his had his 

1846
01:50:48,040 --> 01:50:49,920
father been older, he would have
been king and not a prophet. 

1847
01:50:51,480 --> 01:50:57,240
And Mika describes in such 
beautiful poetry and also so 

1848
01:50:57,240 --> 01:51:00,280
much so many brilliant illusions
to say for Yoshua and other 

1849
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:03,680
places what the effect of the 
greed of the people are. 

1850
01:51:03,680 --> 01:51:05,680
And then he comes back in 
Chapter 3 and talks about 

1851
01:51:05,680 --> 01:51:10,480
corruption again. 
And I always like to ask, why do

1852
01:51:10,480 --> 01:51:13,280
I need 2 chapters on this? 
Did you have a? 

1853
01:51:15,320 --> 01:51:18,720
And the difference is the 
corruption of in people's 

1854
01:51:18,720 --> 01:51:21,040
hearts, people who have money, 
people, people are greedy. 

1855
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:25,200
We all want more. 
That's human nature. 

1856
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:30,360
But what gets Mikhail going is 
the corruption of an established

1857
01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:34,320
institutionalized corruption. 
And I love asking students, what

1858
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:36,440
does institutionalized 
corruption mean? 

1859
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:41,000
And I say one line and 
understand I teach 18 year old 

1860
01:51:41,440 --> 01:51:48,400
young men a society that says 
you have to go to university to 

1861
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:52,760
make a living and in order to 
make a living, you have to put 

1862
01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:59,680
yourself $200,000 in debt. 
What sort of society is that? 

1863
01:52:01,440 --> 01:52:07,160
That's not A and that's an 
example of societal corruption, 

1864
01:52:08,360 --> 01:52:12,480
OK, where the whole framework is
rotten. 

1865
01:52:12,920 --> 01:52:15,600
Something is very wrong with it.
And it's not the individuals 

1866
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:18,800
anymore, but it's the people, 
the people who make decisions 

1867
01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:22,640
and how they run this society. 
And Mika says perhaps some of 

1868
01:52:22,640 --> 01:52:27,120
the most famous lines in the at 
the end of this thing, Sion 

1869
01:52:27,120 --> 01:52:31,200
sadeh TE haresh you shy me into 
yet Zion will be plowed up like 

1870
01:52:31,200 --> 01:52:33,760
a field. 
Your shy will be just come as 

1871
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:36,880
heaps. 
And it's such a powerful phrase 

1872
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:39,400
that Yermi, I was going to quote
it 100 years later in his own 

1873
01:52:39,400 --> 01:52:41,440
defense. 
How can you accuse me of 

1874
01:52:41,440 --> 01:52:44,200
blasphemy? 
Yush Mika said Jerusalem would 

1875
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:48,480
be destroyed too. 
And then what Mika does is 

1876
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:51,440
brilliant. 
He takes Chapter 4, and Chapter 

1877
01:52:51,440 --> 01:52:55,640
4 begins with logic. 
For before Kimi tiante ti Torah 

1878
01:52:55,640 --> 01:52:58,280
devar hashemi Ushlaim. 
Where have we heard that before?

1879
01:52:59,440 --> 01:53:01,640
Every time we take out the 
Torah, obviously, but that's 

1880
01:53:01,640 --> 01:53:05,160
Yeshayao. 
He takes the same verses as 

1881
01:53:05,160 --> 01:53:08,520
Yeshayahu does, but Yeshayahu 
puts it at the beginning of his 

1882
01:53:09,240 --> 01:53:13,080
nevula in chapter 2 when he's 
talking about Benezrail at their

1883
01:53:13,080 --> 01:53:19,760
best, which is AI want. 
We have the opportunity, says 

1884
01:53:19,760 --> 01:53:22,080
Yeshayahu. 
We can make Jerusalem the center

1885
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:24,920
of the world, the religious, 
moral, spiritual, capital world.

1886
01:53:25,120 --> 01:53:27,520
We have this opportunity. 
Let's not waste it because we're

1887
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:31,120
in such great shape right now 
and what Mika's done. 

1888
01:53:31,120 --> 01:53:35,040
He's taken these same verses and
placed them after his prophecy 

1889
01:53:35,040 --> 01:53:39,000
in chapter 3, and he says the 
only way we're going to get to 

1890
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:40,920
this is if we destroy what we 
have. 

1891
01:53:41,800 --> 01:53:44,200
I'm not saying that he's 
advocating the destruction 

1892
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:46,320
bases. 
The system is so corrupt and we 

1893
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:50,560
need to tear everything down in 
order to rebuild, which is such 

1894
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:53,320
a powerful. 
He's taking the same words, but 

1895
01:53:53,320 --> 01:53:55,720
they convey such different 
meaning in their context. 

1896
01:53:57,360 --> 01:54:00,880
It's really fascinating. 
There's a chapters four or five 

1897
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:03,880
have a debate between him and 
the people, the nobles. 

1898
01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:05,800
Do we fight a Syria to go out to
war? 

1899
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:09,840
The end of chapter 5 we read 
impartial Balak that a shamel is

1900
01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:11,640
clear. 
Declare war against the enemies.

1901
01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:14,480
What are the enemies? 
The militarization of the north 

1902
01:54:14,480 --> 01:54:16,280
of the southern Kingdom. 
I'll destroy your Chariots, I'll

1903
01:54:16,280 --> 01:54:19,400
destroy your fortresses and I'll
destroy your strongholds. 

1904
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:24,360
And then I, Hashemel, go, go 
after your enemies, which is 

1905
01:54:24,360 --> 01:54:27,640
that he doesn't want, we're not 
supposed to be focusing on 

1906
01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:29,480
building up the military, 
supposed to be focusing on 

1907
01:54:29,480 --> 01:54:32,720
social justice. 
And he concludes with two 

1908
01:54:32,720 --> 01:54:34,680
chapters. 
The first one chapter, as 

1909
01:54:34,760 --> 01:54:38,800
everybody knows, even the donos 
for Mika, where This is why we 

1910
01:54:38,800 --> 01:54:41,360
read Mikan Balak. 
The people turn to Hashem and 

1911
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:42,480
say, well, what do you want from
us? 

1912
01:54:42,480 --> 01:54:44,960
More SAC corbinote. 
We'll give more common out. 

1913
01:54:44,960 --> 01:54:48,160
We'll gladly give more 
carbinote, which is exactly what

1914
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:50,360
Bilam said. 
If we just keep actually asking,

1915
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:56,280
giving the paying God off of 
more carbon out, we will you 

1916
01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:59,880
know God will answer our prayers
and they have become bilam and 

1917
01:54:59,880 --> 01:55:02,160
bikhed in fact mentions I 
brought you out of Egypt and you

1918
01:55:02,200 --> 01:55:05,040
didn't remember what bilam did 
and you keep asking the same 

1919
01:55:05,040 --> 01:55:06,680
questions and you make a 
response. 

1920
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:12,040
What does God ask of man? 
Motto asot mishpat avarghesi 

1921
01:55:12,040 --> 01:55:16,720
vasnehlakid be just love 
kindness and walk humbly. 

1922
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:20,560
I'm not asking for big checks, 
I'm asking for you be zaya 

1923
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:23,240
Mensch, you know, please be good
people. 

1924
01:55:23,240 --> 01:55:28,360
That's all of God ever asks and 
there's so and it's so powerful 

1925
01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:31,000
and then the Chapter 7, if you 
get a chance to read Chapter 7 

1926
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:33,120
to be a cup, please read it 
before Rosh Hashanah. 

1927
01:55:33,120 --> 01:55:36,240
I'll tell you why in a second. 
It's such a personal I'm 

1928
01:55:36,240 --> 01:55:37,800
walking. 
He describes he's walking 

1929
01:55:37,800 --> 01:55:42,000
through the destruction the of 
what's left behind that he's 

1930
01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:44,520
feels like he's in the field 
where all the grapes are off 

1931
01:55:44,520 --> 01:55:48,600
except for these single grapes 
hanging on the he's so lonely. 

1932
01:55:48,600 --> 01:55:50,560
There's nobody there who 
understands what he's been 

1933
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:53,880
trying to do. 
But he didn't finishes again, I 

1934
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:57,080
love books of happy endings. 
I'm I'm a sucker for the old 

1935
01:55:57,080 --> 01:56:01,560
Hollywood, you know, model 
Hashem will come and tear down 

1936
01:56:02,360 --> 01:56:07,000
our enemies. 
And you'll understand why we say

1937
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:12,560
this before on Rosh Hashanah, MI
al kamocha nosaira bonovera al 

1938
01:56:12,560 --> 01:56:14,360
Peshawar. 
So who is like God? 

1939
01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:17,640
Who's going to forgive, 
including protect and you 

1940
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:19,280
forgive the remnant of those who
remain. 

1941
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:21,880
He doesn't the whole stay anger 
for his for his mercy is what we

1942
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:24,840
say on Tashley right? 
But yeah, sure we are coming. 

1943
01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:28,920
Of course of Antenni will cover 
our compassion, but he will 

1944
01:56:29,280 --> 01:56:31,000
throw into the depths of the 
sea. 

1945
01:56:32,080 --> 01:56:35,200
Now who's been thrown into the 
depths of the sea before again 

1946
01:56:35,240 --> 01:56:38,920
was play Gush Tanakh, who's been
thrown into the Egyptians? 

1947
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:42,480
And so immediately what a good 
person should do is take a look.

1948
01:56:42,480 --> 01:56:46,680
Here's Chapter 7 in Mika and 
here's this Shirat Ayam. 

1949
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:50,040
And you see, Mika has taken 
verse after verse after verse 

1950
01:56:50,040 --> 01:56:53,920
and shirat ayam and put it here.
But he does it for a purpose 

1951
01:56:54,600 --> 01:56:58,680
when we in Shirat Ayam in the 
Exodus and Schmut who gets run 

1952
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:05,360
into the to the into the sea. 
The Chariots of. 

1953
01:57:05,480 --> 01:57:08,920
Our enemies, the Egyptians, so 
who's going to get thrown into 

1954
01:57:08,920 --> 01:57:13,920
the sea here? 
But Ishwak, Muslim, Kokhatotam, 

1955
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:16,880
it's our own sins. 
They get thrown into the sea. 

1956
01:57:17,800 --> 01:57:20,760
And if you appreciate that, what
he's done with that, again, that

1957
01:57:20,760 --> 01:57:25,480
conversation, which is such a 
beautiful Pogo, the American 

1958
01:57:25,480 --> 01:57:29,120
calm cartoon. 
We have seen the enemy and he is

1959
01:57:29,120 --> 01:57:32,160
us. 
You know, this is what the 

1960
01:57:32,200 --> 01:57:34,480
message of every Navi is. 
We're the ones who do this to 

1961
01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:36,520
ourselves. 
We have to work on and 

1962
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:39,600
strengthen our efforts to build 
social cohesion and social 

1963
01:57:39,600 --> 01:57:42,160
justice and not tear ourselves 
apart. 

1964
01:57:42,160 --> 01:57:45,840
And then when that happens, 
nobody can attack us and nobody 

1965
01:57:45,840 --> 01:57:47,880
can hurt us. 
And we have to learn, get that 

1966
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:50,040
lesson through. 
I think that lesson still 

1967
01:57:50,040 --> 01:57:54,360
remains as relevant today as it 
did, you know, 2700 years ago. 

1968
01:57:55,720 --> 01:57:58,640
That's Mika. 
I have a love for Mika, passion 

1969
01:57:58,640 --> 01:58:01,400
for Mika. 
They're all wonderful though, 

1970
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:04,280
and I strongly encourage people.
So when I asked, you know, 

1971
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:07,000
when's the last time you took a 
took a book at a Navi out, you 

1972
01:58:07,000 --> 01:58:09,320
know that everybody should be 
able to give your answers. 

1973
01:58:10,440 --> 01:58:11,400
So. 
Amazing. 

1974
01:58:12,160 --> 01:58:15,800
This was this was unbelievable 
already one of my favorite 

1975
01:58:15,800 --> 01:58:18,320
episodes that we've done so far.
So with you. 

1976
01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:23,200
And we want to allow our 
audience to know, you know, know

1977
01:58:23,200 --> 01:58:26,200
where they can find you and also
if there's anything you want to 

1978
01:58:26,200 --> 01:58:32,320
plug besides the book. 
Just we've got a lot of work to 

1979
01:58:32,320 --> 01:58:35,520
do as a people. 
I don't obviously you've you've 

1980
01:58:35,520 --> 01:58:37,480
talked about the Maggie's series
more than I have. 

1981
01:58:37,480 --> 01:58:39,920
There's so many great works of 
scholarship just coming out. 

1982
01:58:40,440 --> 01:58:42,800
I'm on Mazak's translation work 
on. 

1983
01:58:42,880 --> 01:58:44,480
Schmalm. 
Now I'm waiting for this for 

1984
01:58:44,520 --> 01:58:46,600
Part 2 to come out. 
Waiting for Part 2. 

1985
01:58:46,680 --> 01:58:49,600
I went through all of it and 
during COVID but the online 

1986
01:58:49,600 --> 01:58:52,760
version because I could do the 
Hebrew, my Hebrew is good but it

1987
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:55,160
just would take a lot longer so 
I wanted to be able. 

1988
01:58:55,160 --> 01:58:59,720
To I appreciate that. 
I appreciate that I do soon yes 

1989
01:58:59,760 --> 01:59:02,160
HLL books on Amazon ho share 
coming out everything is 

1990
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:07,760
worthwhile and anybody who wants
to reach me my my working 

1991
01:59:07,760 --> 01:59:11,680
address as it were is why 
Beasley at levitora.org. 

1992
01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:16,560
Anybody who has any questions. 
One of the heartening or 

1993
01:59:16,560 --> 01:59:19,040
heartbreaking things that you 
can decide is that I've received

1994
01:59:19,040 --> 01:59:23,720
so many interesting the muggy 
influences not only been within 

1995
01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:27,080
the Jewish world, but I've 
received letters from professors

1996
01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:31,200
and a Christian. 
There's a Baptist college that 

1997
01:59:31,200 --> 01:59:34,040
wanted to use Nacham wrote corn.
Can we use Nacham Publica 

1998
01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:37,840
Stefania for our textbook, you 
know, for teaching and I'm like 

1999
01:59:38,320 --> 01:59:40,480
on one hand he meet Siante tes 
Torah. 

2000
01:59:41,280 --> 01:59:45,000
You know, that's wonderful. 
You know, this is Zehariah that 

2001
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:47,920
describes how every Jew will be 
grabbed by people non Jews 

2002
01:59:48,120 --> 01:59:51,840
teaches Torah, teaches Torah. 
But first, you know, I want to 

2003
01:59:51,840 --> 01:59:54,640
hear that these books are being,
you know, textbooks. 

2004
01:59:54,640 --> 01:59:57,480
And we've put Navi back in the 
curriculum, which is always been

2005
01:59:57,480 --> 02:00:01,000
my pet peeve and what I try to 
what I've dedicated my life to 

2006
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:03,280
doing, making Tresar great 
again. 

2007
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:10,520
So. 
Tanakh has to be the Tanakh to, 

2008
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:14,800
to really think as a Jew, the 
heart of a Jew, the heart of 

2009
02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:16,440
being Jewish, it's really all in
Tanakh. 

2010
02:00:17,320 --> 02:00:24,840
That's that's where we that, 
that, that's if it's not that 

2011
02:00:24,840 --> 02:00:28,640
the it's not that Tamara Musser,
all that, that's all beautiful 

2012
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:32,240
and necessary and important and 
not in any way taking away. 

2013
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:36,480
But at the end of the day, 
Tanakh is our heartbeat, that 

2014
02:00:36,480 --> 02:00:39,680
is. 
I think, I think you're correct.

2015
02:00:39,680 --> 02:00:45,000
One of the things I noticed this
year, I had a bit of a crash 

2016
02:00:45,000 --> 02:00:47,080
after Purim. 
I was six months of this. 

2017
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:51,600
What's been going on, you know, 
not just, you know, my kids, the

2018
02:00:51,600 --> 02:00:55,040
Army and the students, the army.
And I went to a Hasidic rabbi 

2019
02:00:55,040 --> 02:00:58,560
for consultation, a very close 
friend, and said, you know why 

2020
02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:01,880
you're feeling the pain so much 
because you're a Tanak person. 

2021
02:01:02,760 --> 02:01:04,960
And he said exactly. 
He said the Tanakh is the heart.

2022
02:01:06,440 --> 02:01:10,440
And this isn't saying it's the 
heart does not invalidate the 

2023
02:01:10,440 --> 02:01:12,720
importance of the brain. 
The kidneys deliver every other.

2024
02:01:14,120 --> 02:01:17,600
The whole Jewish body has to 
have everything, you know, But 

2025
02:01:17,600 --> 02:01:20,960
we have to go back to the heart 
of what you know, what the 

2026
02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:25,840
ethics and the morals of, of 
what we believe and what we do 

2027
02:01:26,240 --> 02:01:27,400
and what we're trying to 
accomplish. 

2028
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:32,400
We can't get it through. 
They're not. 

2029
02:01:32,400 --> 02:01:34,920
The other books are important. 
They're not a substitute for 

2030
02:01:34,920 --> 02:01:36,760
going back to the original 
source. 

2031
02:01:36,760 --> 02:01:39,360
Worse. 
Ben, do you have anything else 

2032
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:41,560
said? 
Well, I just want to ask you 

2033
02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:45,080
because this is a topic that's 
come up before, but before we we

2034
02:01:45,080 --> 02:01:52,640
go, how how do we kind of, you 
know, push people to bring the 

2035
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:54,160
focus back? 
This enough because especially 

2036
02:01:54,160 --> 02:01:57,280
in America, here we like in the 
Shiva's there there's not really

2037
02:01:57,280 --> 02:01:58,240
a bad. 
Situation. 

2038
02:01:58,240 --> 02:02:00,680
It's it's. 
It's almost ignored. 

2039
02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:04,120
Girls learn it, but that's about
it. 

2040
02:02:04,160 --> 02:02:05,400
It's. 
So hard. 

2041
02:02:05,600 --> 02:02:08,760
You know, I joke when I talk 
about safe environments. 

2042
02:02:09,440 --> 02:02:12,240
There are two reasons why people
don't ask what does Rashi say on

2043
02:02:12,240 --> 02:02:14,240
SHMA? 
OK. 

2044
02:02:14,240 --> 02:02:17,800
And I joke to my students, you 
don't know what Rashi says on 

2045
02:02:17,800 --> 02:02:22,400
SHMA for two reasons. 
One, it's a summer part show and

2046
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:27,840
two, it's the third partial. 
And two, you've started learning

2047
02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:31,520
Gamar already. 
And once you started learning 

2048
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:37,440
Gamar, who has time for, you 
know, these basic, you know, for

2049
02:02:37,440 --> 02:02:40,240
Davar, you get the all these 
books of the short strip. 

2050
02:02:40,240 --> 02:02:43,600
We have so little time and so 
little energy and there's a 

2051
02:02:43,600 --> 02:02:45,280
reality. 
It takes a lot more effort to 

2052
02:02:45,280 --> 02:02:47,680
learn how to learn Gamar 
properly than it might then. 

2053
02:02:47,800 --> 02:02:52,160
Even I talked about the 
difficulty of understanding Navi

2054
02:02:52,160 --> 02:02:54,800
to teach young people to give 
them the fluency in Dumar. 

2055
02:02:54,800 --> 02:03:00,560
Also, love is as any parent will
know, knows love is infinite, 

2056
02:03:00,880 --> 02:03:03,800
but energy is finite. 
You know, you love all your kids

2057
02:03:03,800 --> 02:03:06,840
equally and but your energy 
levels you have to learn to 

2058
02:03:06,840 --> 02:03:11,080
manage and you know, and the 
energy that we have to invest in

2059
02:03:11,080 --> 02:03:14,200
if we want to raise literate 
generation. 

2060
02:03:15,080 --> 02:03:19,840
I wish we had them for all day. 
We don't, and so we have to pick

2061
02:03:19,840 --> 02:03:22,120
and choose, but we do. 
We having said that, there's 

2062
02:03:22,120 --> 02:03:27,600
still no excuse for the lack of 
Tanaf that is present. 

2063
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:29,800
We don't yet have, we haven't 
yet figured it out. 

2064
02:03:30,520 --> 02:03:33,800
I think we're starting to, you 
know, first let's get teachers. 

2065
02:03:34,800 --> 02:03:37,160
As more and more people read 
Maggi, they're able to teach, 

2066
02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:40,080
you know, they're able to teach.
Then they can go into the class.

2067
02:03:40,080 --> 02:03:43,400
And even if we don't get through
all Tracer and but at least they

2068
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:45,680
should start to know and they 
should start to be aware and 

2069
02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:48,800
then people will be inspired to 
open it up on their own and 

2070
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:51,160
write books and argue with me. 
And I'm more than willing to 

2071
02:03:52,080 --> 02:03:54,040
that's those are the people I'd 
like the most, you know? 

2072
02:03:54,320 --> 02:03:57,480
You also had you mentioned that 
when you're in college you start

2073
02:03:57,480 --> 02:04:00,240
out learning Gamara, but then 
you really were more you wanted 

2074
02:04:00,240 --> 02:04:03,760
something else I feel like. 
It was not learning again. 

2075
02:04:03,800 --> 02:04:06,200
Had I gone to a good Gamara 
Shira, I don't know if this 

2076
02:04:06,480 --> 02:04:07,920
would have. 
It's a strange. 

2077
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:11,320
The fact that the option was 
there to switch or to focus on 

2078
02:04:11,320 --> 02:04:14,160
something else, I think that 
should be available to. 

2079
02:04:14,240 --> 02:04:16,080
And it's difficult because 
obviously you have to have the 

2080
02:04:16,080 --> 02:04:19,720
teachers for it and everything. 
But yeah, I think that kids 

2081
02:04:19,720 --> 02:04:22,880
should have the the choice also 
to if they, if they feel more 

2082
02:04:23,160 --> 02:04:26,200
inclined to, to study it. 
I think it should be made of. 

2083
02:04:26,320 --> 02:04:27,600
I just feel like it's not made 
of. 

2084
02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:30,400
I think you, what you just did 
was put in Gamarnavotezara, you 

2085
02:04:30,400 --> 02:04:36,360
Tet in a dumb low, mid. 
And even at a high school level,

2086
02:04:36,520 --> 02:04:39,320
we have to balance the need to 
create a sense of literacy, 

2087
02:04:39,320 --> 02:04:41,240
whether it's learning Gomara, 
whether it's learning Tanakh, 

2088
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:44,080
whether it's learning Jewish 
history, Jewish law and all 

2089
02:04:44,080 --> 02:04:45,960
these things we have to talk 
about Ashkafa. 

2090
02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:49,600
We haven't talked about well, 
you know, how many hours can we 

2091
02:04:49,600 --> 02:04:51,280
spend? 
But we do have to give them 

2092
02:04:51,320 --> 02:04:55,240
start giving them choices. 
The most effective summer 

2093
02:04:55,240 --> 02:04:58,640
learning program I ever went was
part of was IVA. 

2094
02:04:58,880 --> 02:05:01,840
These really basketball 
associated just in the 90s under

2095
02:05:01,840 --> 02:05:04,600
Bobby Kaplan and privileged to 
work with his son, Rev Mortify 

2096
02:05:04,600 --> 02:05:08,240
Kaplan now and it was coming to 
a base Meddersh. 

2097
02:05:09,320 --> 02:05:13,080
Give an hour, pick something off
the shelf or learn with us. 

2098
02:05:13,120 --> 02:05:15,480
You have to choose, but you 
can't be passive. 

2099
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:20,080
Creating that safe, that space 
for people to learn on their 

2100
02:05:20,080 --> 02:05:23,640
own, to study on their own, is 
what we have to be directing our

2101
02:05:23,640 --> 02:05:26,480
energies towards. 
Because when you leave the 

2102
02:05:26,480 --> 02:05:29,680
structure, that's what you're 
going to do when you leave. 

2103
02:05:30,800 --> 02:05:32,560
A lot of guys leave yeshiva. 
They don't have the framework, 

2104
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:35,040
they have the structure to tell 
them to do, and they don't know 

2105
02:05:35,040 --> 02:05:36,640
what to do. 
They don't know how to take a 

2106
02:05:36,640 --> 02:05:38,240
book off the shelf and do it on 
their own. 

2107
02:05:40,000 --> 02:05:44,720
You, you just said passive. 
So I, I've been thinking about 

2108
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:48,920
this and I think that part of 
the problem is, is that the, the

2109
02:05:48,920 --> 02:05:53,720
way Tanak is taught is passive. 
What I mean by that is 

2110
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:58,960
ironically, I, it shouldn't be 
this way, but ironically, this 

2111
02:06:01,360 --> 02:06:06,960
tendency to read Tanakh and then
it's almost like the second they

2112
02:06:06,960 --> 02:06:10,640
read one verse and I'm guilty of
it my whole life. 

2113
02:06:10,640 --> 02:06:14,560
And I'm, I'm not like I'm not 
excluding myself, but the second

2114
02:06:14,560 --> 02:06:18,880
we read 1 pursuit immediately to
the commentaries, immediately to

2115
02:06:18,880 --> 02:06:21,920
you know, you know, what does 
Ramban say? 

2116
02:06:21,920 --> 02:06:23,840
What is? 
Let's be honest, even the comma 

2117
02:06:23,840 --> 02:06:27,800
did that approach was accepted 
by the Israeli high schools. 

2118
02:06:28,600 --> 02:06:30,960
And the comma, this was Nahama's
approach and she hated it 

2119
02:06:30,960 --> 02:06:34,240
because it was just memorized 
commentators as opposed to 

2120
02:06:34,760 --> 02:06:39,200
asking questions, right? 
We need to be able, We need to 

2121
02:06:39,200 --> 02:06:43,240
teach. 
Teaching active learning doesn't

2122
02:06:43,240 --> 02:06:44,840
matter what you're doing, it's 
got to be active. 

2123
02:06:45,400 --> 02:06:47,520
It's also the attitude gone into
Tanakh. 

2124
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:51,040
Tanakh is in a sense so revered.
It is. 

2125
02:06:51,040 --> 02:06:55,920
So it's almost like, God forbid,
Khalila that I would ever have 

2126
02:06:55,920 --> 02:07:00,920
anything to say, 'cause it's 
Torah like meaning meaning like 

2127
02:07:00,920 --> 02:07:04,080
there's a reverence that's kind 
of working against people over 

2128
02:07:04,080 --> 02:07:07,840
here in that in that, in that 
reverence is is kind of 

2129
02:07:07,840 --> 02:07:13,080
paralyzing them because they're 
almost afraid to study it. 

2130
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:16,240
It becomes more like just tell 
me what I'm supposed to get out 

2131
02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:19,640
of here because because of the 
pedestal and that's. 

2132
02:07:19,640 --> 02:07:21,680
Interesting. 
You you get what I'm trying to 

2133
02:07:21,680 --> 02:07:22,840
say. 
I did get what you're trying to 

2134
02:07:22,840 --> 02:07:26,280
say and that's of course goes 
back to that conversation that 

2135
02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:29,880
Karam Kimchi did. 
He was talking about the Tarah 

2136
02:07:29,960 --> 02:07:32,400
Bhagavan. 
I don't want to I place it up 

2137
02:07:32,400 --> 02:07:36,080
here and it's no longer 
accessible for anybody to but 

2138
02:07:36,200 --> 02:07:40,640
and the gush Dera is to exactly 
open this up, you know, 

2139
02:07:42,280 --> 02:07:43,720
democratize. 
I'm going to go back to our 

2140
02:07:43,720 --> 02:07:46,640
Citroen's phrase, democratize 
the study of Tanakh. 

2141
02:07:46,640 --> 02:07:49,440
You can do this is something you
can't open on your own and it's.

2142
02:07:49,640 --> 02:07:52,240
And I think that we need, that 
also needs to be emphasized. 

2143
02:07:52,240 --> 02:07:55,320
That's not in any way, God 
forbid, a lack of reverence. 

2144
02:07:55,760 --> 02:08:00,560
It's the opposite. 
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's 

2145
02:08:00,560 --> 02:08:04,520
showing a love and A and A and a
reverence of the text that 

2146
02:08:04,520 --> 02:08:09,160
you're willing to engage in it 
with everything, with every 

2147
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:15,000
mental ability that you can. 
I think that this this idea, 

2148
02:08:15,000 --> 02:08:19,320
this the reverence that sort of 
and I think partly it's also the

2149
02:08:19,320 --> 02:08:25,560
way it's the way the the rabunim
are are communicating this type 

2150
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:29,240
of reverence, which kind of 
gives a little bit of a of a 

2151
02:08:29,240 --> 02:08:32,280
fear for people to really, 
really, really engage in it. 

2152
02:08:32,560 --> 02:08:34,640
And it becomes very commentary 
based. 

2153
02:08:34,920 --> 02:08:38,680
Very, you know, just, you know, 
take an idea, take an and and 

2154
02:08:38,720 --> 02:08:42,520
and chaval, because because I 
think that you gain a deeper 

2155
02:08:42,520 --> 02:08:45,760
reverence, a deeper love. 
I. 

2156
02:08:45,760 --> 02:08:50,920
Find it ironic that we encourage
Fiddush and innovation in every 

2157
02:08:50,920 --> 02:08:56,320
other aspect of our studies. 
Do you have a Hiddish? 

2158
02:08:56,320 --> 02:08:57,600
What do you know? 
What do you learn? 

2159
02:08:57,600 --> 02:09:00,600
What do you have a Hiddish but 
we aren't allowed to do? 

2160
02:09:01,520 --> 02:09:06,040
Although Rashi told the Rashbam 
that if he could do it over, he 

2161
02:09:06,040 --> 02:09:08,280
would, he would. 
He would write it up. 

2162
02:09:08,280 --> 02:09:12,720
He shot, I mean the of the 
Hiddushbam shot that come every 

2163
02:09:12,720 --> 02:09:15,880
single day in the streets. 
I don't have the exact quote, 

2164
02:09:15,880 --> 02:09:17,040
but I think you know what I'm 
talking about. 

2165
02:09:17,440 --> 02:09:23,320
Yes, it's in the Rashbam and 
Zion and I remember teaching 

2166
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:28,120
Rush Baum in a day school in 
Minnesota when we were in Srihu 

2167
02:09:28,160 --> 02:09:32,680
many years ago and the Rav was 
serious, serious. 

2168
02:09:32,680 --> 02:09:36,600
Ralph, I mean Rav motion to the 
elite is a serious man. 

2169
02:09:36,600 --> 02:09:39,000
He came up to me and said I 
appreciate what you're doing. 

2170
02:09:39,000 --> 02:09:42,360
The kids are enjoying, but we 
aren't post sick like the Rush 

2171
02:09:42,360 --> 02:09:46,600
Baum. 
And it's interesting because it 

2172
02:09:47,360 --> 02:09:50,160
at the time I didn't understand 
the statement because how can 

2173
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:52,320
you be post like either A 
happened or B happened? 

2174
02:09:52,320 --> 02:09:53,720
You can't give a suck on what 
happened. 

2175
02:09:53,720 --> 02:09:55,920
Historically, you can't vote, 
you know. 

2176
02:09:56,520 --> 02:10:02,800
But on a deeper level, many 
approach, many streams of 

2177
02:10:02,840 --> 02:10:07,200
Orthodoxy have been slowly 
removing the Barbonells and the 

2178
02:10:07,440 --> 02:10:09,720
rush bombs. 
And we talked about who's on 

2179
02:10:09,720 --> 02:10:14,640
your micro Ocodilla's page. 
There's only an apostate who put

2180
02:10:14,640 --> 02:10:16,760
even Ezra in. 
And for that we are. 

2181
02:10:17,640 --> 02:10:19,720
Totally grateful. 
Totally grateful. 

2182
02:10:19,760 --> 02:10:22,520
You know, whatever complacent we
have against Yaakov Bin there, 

2183
02:10:22,760 --> 02:10:24,440
at least he kept it even as 
they're alive. 

2184
02:10:25,040 --> 02:10:30,920
And you know, so we have a very 
broad and wide range of, you 

2185
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:35,400
know, thought available to us in
the field is I cannot fathom or 

2186
02:10:35,400 --> 02:10:39,440
understand why somebody would 
wish to remove any of it. 

2187
02:10:39,440 --> 02:10:41,840
But I do understand how it 
becomes threatening, as you 

2188
02:10:41,880 --> 02:10:45,320
mentioned, you know. 
And we hope that I know that 

2189
02:10:45,320 --> 02:10:48,320
you're involved in a lot of 
works, and I know that you're 

2190
02:10:48,320 --> 02:10:52,560
going to bring out a lot more 
for everyone to you're going to 

2191
02:10:52,600 --> 02:10:54,480
be a lot more material for 
everyone to read, a lot more 

2192
02:10:54,480 --> 02:10:58,240
books, a lot more publications. 
We wish you best of luck on all 

2193
02:10:58,240 --> 02:10:59,360
of those. 
Thank you very much. 

2194
02:10:59,560 --> 02:11:02,280
Yeah, and and thank you. 
Very much for having me. 

2195
02:11:02,280 --> 02:11:05,400
It's just a conversation. 
It was only because JJ kept me 

2196
02:11:05,400 --> 02:11:06,960
up a day. 
I said I had to write you guys. 

2197
02:11:06,960 --> 02:11:08,200
I was just friendly. 
Yeah. 

2198
02:11:08,360 --> 02:11:10,480
Really shook me up. 
And this is great. 

2199
02:11:10,760 --> 02:11:15,080
Anytime you can spend an hour, 
two hours talking to Raz, 

2200
02:11:15,080 --> 02:11:16,480
talking to. 
Nah, it's Barack. 

2201
02:11:17,600 --> 02:11:19,080
Hashem. 
Thank you very much, Ben. 

2202
02:11:19,080 --> 02:11:20,120
And Ben, hopefully. 
This gets you. 

2203
02:11:20,200 --> 02:11:22,080
Hopefully this gets you on his 
podcast too. 

2204
02:11:22,520 --> 02:11:23,880
Yeah, it's his own podcast, by 
the way. 

2205
02:11:23,920 --> 02:11:26,440
That would be great. 
Yeah, great. 

2206
02:11:26,440 --> 02:11:31,720
And we hope that you constantly 
inspire your students as you 

2207
02:11:31,720 --> 02:11:35,960
desire to do and bring that that
that happy medium. 

2208
02:11:36,280 --> 02:11:40,480
Longs the the the long but short
path is what we always try to 

2209
02:11:40,480 --> 02:11:42,560
strive for long. 
Short path Shavuoto. 

2210
02:11:43,360 --> 02:11:44,360
Thank you very much. 
Thank. 

2211
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:46,480
You thank you. 
Thank. 

2212
02:11:46,480 --> 02:11:48,840
You very much OK. 
All the best, OK?