1 00:00:06,580 --> 00:00:10,340 Welcome to Judaism, Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed. 2 00:00:10,780 --> 00:00:13,380 We are rejoined by Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman. 3 00:00:14,100 --> 00:00:17,340 Dr. Berman is a professor of Bible at Barilan University. 4 00:00:17,420 --> 00:00:19,860 He is known for his views on the history of Jewish belief and on 5 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:22,780 Biblical source criticism, arguing that knowledge of the 6 00:00:22,780 --> 00:00:26,420 cultural context of the ancient Near East is required in 7 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,660 understanding the Scriptures. He earned his A/B at Princeton 8 00:00:29,660 --> 00:00:34,300 University in 1987 and his PhD at Barilan University in 2002. 9 00:00:34,990 --> 00:00:38,870 He's also an Orthodox Rabbi and studied at Ushivar Tarizon for 10 00:00:38,870 --> 00:00:41,590 eight years and taught Bible at the Nishmat Midra Shah for 11 00:00:41,590 --> 00:00:44,990 several years. He's a frequent contributor to 12 00:00:44,990 --> 00:00:47,990 The Times of Israel, and his articles on Biblical theology 13 00:00:47,990 --> 00:00:51,870 and contemporary society have appeared in the pages of Mosaic 14 00:00:51,870 --> 00:00:53,950 magazine and the Wall Street Journal. 15 00:00:54,750 --> 00:00:57,990 Rabbi Dr. Berman served as a member of the International 16 00:00:57,990 --> 00:01:02,270 Advisory Board for the Museum of the Bible in Washington, DC 17 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:13,830 Without further ado, Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman, thank you for 18 00:01:13,830 --> 00:01:16,710 rejoining the Judaism Demystified podcast. 19 00:01:16,710 --> 00:01:20,390 Professor Berman, we just want to say thank you because you 20 00:01:20,390 --> 00:01:24,190 were one of the people who started out our podcast. 21 00:01:24,190 --> 00:01:27,870 You know, you took a risk with these guys who are no names, and 22 00:01:28,150 --> 00:01:30,990 you really, you know, it's one of our most talked about 23 00:01:30,990 --> 00:01:32,670 episodes. So we really want to thank you. 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,760 Well, you know, you see big hearts and then you know, 25 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,160 tremendous desire to do things with Shamshemayam. 26 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,920 It's it's very hard to say no. So it was a real pleasure and 27 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,360 I'm, I'm thrilled to be back. Thank you so much. 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,760 And so I want to get into the topic of today, which is 29 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,880 Lamentations, your new book. But mainly I want to understand 30 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,680 why you chose to write this book. 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,040 Okay. So I'll give you, I'll give you 32 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,520 two types of answers. Okay. 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,970 So this this book. It's got a very kind of, very 34 00:02:04,970 --> 00:02:07,250 part of title, the book of Lamentations. 35 00:02:07,450 --> 00:02:10,009 It's part of the of an academic series. 36 00:02:10,009 --> 00:02:13,290 In other words, publishers have series on the on the entirety of 37 00:02:13,290 --> 00:02:15,570 Tanaf and each volume is another book of Tanaf. 38 00:02:16,010 --> 00:02:20,930 So this is the AHA volume, Lamentations volume of a series 39 00:02:20,930 --> 00:02:24,130 called the New Cambridge Bible Commentary put out by Cambridge 40 00:02:24,130 --> 00:02:26,730 University Press. But it's entirely accessible to 41 00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:29,050 anybody listening to this, to this program. 42 00:02:29,430 --> 00:02:31,990 Some you know, might discuss some issues or footnotes that 43 00:02:31,990 --> 00:02:34,070 you're not, you know, accustomed to necessarily. 44 00:02:34,310 --> 00:02:36,310 But nobody would have any difficulty following the 45 00:02:36,310 --> 00:02:39,030 argumentation, the use of language, etcetera. 46 00:02:40,710 --> 00:02:43,990 So one answer is that I was approached by the series editor 47 00:02:44,350 --> 00:02:48,230 and he asked me if I would write the volume for the series on 48 00:02:48,230 --> 00:02:51,070 Ezra Nakamya. But I'm afraid I don't fully 49 00:02:51,070 --> 00:02:53,470 understand Ezra Nakamya. So with real hoods by said to 50 00:02:53,470 --> 00:02:56,500 him, how about Aiha? And he said, okay, you can write 51 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:58,020 on Ethan. So that that's one answer. 52 00:02:58,020 --> 00:02:59,540 That's not the answer you were looking for though. 53 00:02:59,540 --> 00:03:03,260 So I'll say to you, Ben, it's for for almost 30 years. 54 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:07,140 I've had a dream of writing a commentary on Ethan because I I 55 00:03:07,140 --> 00:03:09,620 remember about 30 years ago trying to just learn the safer 56 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:12,660 for myself, you know, not just one sitting on the floor on Tish 57 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:14,460 above night, but like let's go through this. 58 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:16,700 What is going on here? And it occurred to me that 59 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:20,060 there's something far richer than what we normally assume, 60 00:03:20,060 --> 00:03:21,660 which we'll get into into in a moment. 61 00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:24,240 You know, what are assumptions. When we're reading a hub about 62 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,600 what this is about and that this is like really, really cool. 63 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,000 And if I could have one day the opportunity to write up a whole 64 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,000 commentary with the whole mahalo, the whole approach to 65 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,640 what is a hub, what is it trying to do, what are its different 66 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,240 parts, how does it hold together? 67 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,640 So this is kind of a dream come true. 68 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,200 Fantastic. And we're so happy to be having 69 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,720 this conversation right now, so I want to get right into it. 70 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,490 What is Lamentations? Who is its audience and what is 71 00:03:54,490 --> 00:03:57,170 its purpose according to scholars and Hazal? 72 00:03:57,810 --> 00:04:00,170 OK, good. So let's start with what I think 73 00:04:00,170 --> 00:04:03,690 is probably the most intuitive answer to people who are 74 00:04:03,690 --> 00:04:07,010 listening to this podcast who probably, you know, are intrual 75 00:04:07,010 --> 00:04:10,090 tissue above night and sitting on the floor and and reading it 76 00:04:10,890 --> 00:04:14,010 Hazal, whenever they speak about AKA, they don't call it AKA, 77 00:04:14,490 --> 00:04:17,930 they call it T notes. That's that's the name for this, 78 00:04:17,930 --> 00:04:20,740 this, this, safer this book. In Kazaa, it's not even a 79 00:04:20,740 --> 00:04:21,740 Mcgillis. It's keynote. 80 00:04:21,940 --> 00:04:23,660 Keynote. Now what does that mean? 81 00:04:23,660 --> 00:04:25,500 Keynote. Well, when we think that it's 82 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:29,100 keynote, so then we think, oh, so it's basically of the same 83 00:04:29,100 --> 00:04:33,340 genre, the same type, same sort of writing as the rest of the 84 00:04:33,340 --> 00:04:35,820 keynote that we have on Fish Above. 85 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:39,580 That is to say, what we have here is someone or some 86 00:04:39,580 --> 00:04:45,420 community that is expressing its woe and its sorrow following 87 00:04:46,020 --> 00:04:48,500 terrible, you know, communal calamity. 88 00:04:49,490 --> 00:04:52,250 If in the rest of keynotes we get a little bit of that, let's 89 00:04:52,250 --> 00:04:55,090 say about, you know, the Middle Ages and then the Crusades. 90 00:04:55,250 --> 00:04:58,330 So these are keynotes, undifferentiated, 91 00:04:58,330 --> 00:05:01,530 undifferentiated, exactly the same as the later keynote. 92 00:05:01,810 --> 00:05:04,010 Just these are like the first five of all the keynotes that 93 00:05:04,010 --> 00:05:08,050 we're going to be reading on on Tishaba, an expression of woe 94 00:05:08,050 --> 00:05:10,450 and sorrow. A little bit of tefila, maybe a 95 00:05:10,450 --> 00:05:13,490 little bit of protest here and there, but that's basically 96 00:05:13,730 --> 00:05:16,450 that's how that's how Hazal understood it. 97 00:05:16,820 --> 00:05:20,100 And you can see even the you know the the non Jewish name for 98 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:24,340 the book Lamentations A lament oy oy oy expressing you know 99 00:05:24,340 --> 00:05:27,020 just like many of us maybe perhaps if we've undergone 100 00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:30,140 something terribly difficult sometimes we will write poetry 101 00:05:30,140 --> 00:05:33,380 to like get it out and that's that's kind of that's how that's 102 00:05:33,380 --> 00:05:37,020 I think how how most traditional Jews have have apprehended this 103 00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:41,900 and we are as it were joining in the expression of woe and and 104 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:44,920 and and and despair. Even though we weren't there. 105 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,360 But these are events that are part of our collective identity 106 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,280 and collective memory. And so we too are going to join 107 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:55,840 in the morning and the and the anguish over the loss, the 108 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:59,120 destruction of the Mick dash, the destruction of Ruchalayam by 109 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,560 sitting on the floor and us as well saying these same keynotes. 110 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,880 And this is the traditional way of looking at things together 111 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,920 with the rest of clay Israel across all of all of the 112 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,400 generations. That's the that's the classical 113 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,470 way of looking at. Now what? 114 00:06:15,310 --> 00:06:19,430 That is how Hazar looked at it. Probably also many early 115 00:06:19,430 --> 00:06:21,310 figures. Again, if we have the name 116 00:06:21,310 --> 00:06:23,470 Lamentations, we didn't give that name to it. 117 00:06:23,630 --> 00:06:25,990 That's, you know, that's what maybe the church Bob is also 118 00:06:26,030 --> 00:06:28,110 called. They also understood it in that 119 00:06:28,110 --> 00:06:31,110 way. But modern scholars, and this 120 00:06:31,110 --> 00:06:34,710 has nothing to do with thera or sources or the origin. 121 00:06:34,710 --> 00:06:36,550 Is it divine or not? Just they're just reading a 122 00:06:36,550 --> 00:06:39,950 story and they're saying, you know, it doesn't all look 123 00:06:39,950 --> 00:06:45,600 entirely like lament. In fact, what we find is that 124 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,400 Akha has like seems to have many different, many different 125 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,360 opinions and voices and they don't all seem to really hold 126 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,600 together. Let me let me give an example of 127 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,840 what I mean. We have a puzzle in in perric, 128 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:07,760 in in in perric Olive, where the the the Mcgillo will support for 129 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,320 that. For the meantime, the Mcgillo 130 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,720 says in Perric Olive, in Pucet Youth Head. 131 00:07:13,430 --> 00:07:19,270 Sadiq who Hashem Efihu Mariti Hashem is righteous because I 132 00:07:19,270 --> 00:07:24,430 have rebelled against his word. That sounds pretty, pretty 133 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:27,150 piatistic. Sounds like you know someone 134 00:07:27,150 --> 00:07:31,230 whoever's saying this has recognized person. 135 00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:34,470 If it's you know, Bacion, the collective representation of 136 00:07:34,470 --> 00:07:36,990 Amistra, maybe it's the community as a whole. 137 00:07:37,470 --> 00:07:41,430 That sounds pretty pious. And then you come to to parrot 138 00:07:41,430 --> 00:07:43,860 bet. And we have a voice that says to 139 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:48,420 Hashem about the children of Bassion, basically the residents 140 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:52,140 of Urusa lion who perished A ragtab, the Yo Ma peja. 141 00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:54,700 You killed them in the day of your anger. 142 00:07:54,940 --> 00:07:57,620 Tavata Locha Malta. You slaughtered them. 143 00:07:57,620 --> 00:07:59,660 You had no pity. Oh, wait a minute. 144 00:07:59,660 --> 00:08:03,620 Didn't we just say And Paracalif said Hiku Hashem if he whom I 145 00:08:03,620 --> 00:08:07,180 read to God is righteous. For I have, I have rebelled 146 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:09,140 against his words. So which is it? 147 00:08:09,140 --> 00:08:11,780 What's going on here? It seems a little schizophrenic. 148 00:08:12,610 --> 00:08:15,970 And the truth is, is that you have many different seemingly 149 00:08:15,970 --> 00:08:17,890 voices and opinions. There are other things that are 150 00:08:17,890 --> 00:08:20,370 that are problematic. Here you have like in Parric 151 00:08:20,370 --> 00:08:24,530 Gimmel, which is the longest parrot in a cub, at least by by 152 00:08:24,530 --> 00:08:27,530 verse numbers. It's the 66 verses there. 153 00:08:27,890 --> 00:08:30,490 And you have this guy. It starts off on me how get 154 00:08:30,490 --> 00:08:33,210 there. I am the man who? 155 00:08:33,210 --> 00:08:34,890 Who are you? What what man is this? 156 00:08:35,130 --> 00:08:37,370 In fact, if you were to read through all of Parrot Gimel, you 157 00:08:37,370 --> 00:08:38,929 would be hard. But. 158 00:08:39,429 --> 00:08:43,030 To identify Parakeem was having anything to do with the hormone 159 00:08:43,030 --> 00:08:44,630 per se. There's almost no mention of 160 00:08:44,630 --> 00:08:47,030 anything you can say. Yes, you can see right here he's 161 00:08:47,030 --> 00:08:49,790 talking about the hormone he wanted to soak in, but most of 162 00:08:49,790 --> 00:08:53,190 it seems to be some just guy talking about personal troubles 163 00:08:53,190 --> 00:08:55,350 that he's had. So what is all this doing here? 164 00:08:55,430 --> 00:08:59,110 And So what what what what many scholars have said? 165 00:08:59,110 --> 00:09:01,470 It's also extremely difficult to see. 166 00:09:01,790 --> 00:09:04,550 Does the Mcgiller have a beginning, a middle? 167 00:09:04,910 --> 00:09:08,260 An end. You know, there's maybe a puzzle 168 00:09:08,260 --> 00:09:13,460 or two of Nekhama at the end of Parikh Dalid when when, when we 169 00:09:13,460 --> 00:09:17,780 read Tama Bonaire Basion your your, your your iniquity or 170 00:09:17,780 --> 00:09:20,580 maybe your punishment has ended. But that's that's Emperic Dalid 171 00:09:20,580 --> 00:09:22,460 not not what we were expected. You know. 172 00:09:22,620 --> 00:09:33,700 Usually if there's going to be even one verse of the Hama, no 173 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:35,980 one should be at the end. And Parikh Gha. 174 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:40,650 What is AFA then? Aha, by almost all modern 175 00:09:40,650 --> 00:09:43,250 scholars, I'm saying in the last 30 years that have tried to make 176 00:09:43,250 --> 00:09:47,170 sense of this book has said, look, the The destruction of you 177 00:09:47,170 --> 00:09:49,850 shall I or the inhabitants of you shall I? 178 00:09:49,850 --> 00:09:54,810 Was clearly a cataclysmic event and many different people came 179 00:09:54,810 --> 00:09:59,450 to many different conclusions. Just like we might say, you 180 00:09:59,450 --> 00:10:00,690 know, we know after the show off. 181 00:10:00,690 --> 00:10:04,250 I'm not even talking about the people that left, you know? 182 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,560 From kite or or, you know, dropped all belief without, you 183 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:10,880 know, obviously rendering any judgment on such people. 184 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,520 But even if you were to speak to 10 Jews who after the Shah 185 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,520 remains, you know Shoma Chavez and Shoma Casnus and you ask 186 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,920 them, So what do you do with all this? 187 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,520 How do you process it theologically? 188 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,440 You're likely to get 10 different answers. 189 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,760 And So what scholars say is what we have here in Eka is just one 190 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,220 cacophony. Of many different viewpoints and 191 00:10:35,220 --> 00:10:39,500 many, many voices that are speaking, each one with their 192 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:44,060 own thoughts about what has happened and where is God and 193 00:10:44,060 --> 00:10:48,020 and and and and what how we supposed to understand what has 194 00:10:48,020 --> 00:10:51,300 just happened to us. That is the prevailing view 195 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:56,060 today, certainly in scholarship. And I think that was all totally 196 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,620 off base. I think it's why I think the 197 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:00,580 primary reason why I think that it's off base. 198 00:11:01,390 --> 00:11:04,390 I don't think that any safer works that way where the author 199 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:06,470 doesn't have an opinion his of himself. 200 00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:12,030 But also you can see it is clear that Ekha is an extremely well 201 00:11:12,190 --> 00:11:15,470 structured work. All of us have probably noticed 202 00:11:15,710 --> 00:11:20,270 that the first two products first, the first the first floor 203 00:11:20,270 --> 00:11:24,990 parking actually are approstics. That means the first possible 204 00:11:24,990 --> 00:11:28,270 begins with Alice, right? Ekhai Ashava Dad. 205 00:11:28,790 --> 00:11:31,230 The second puzzle begins with the beds right the whole teeth 206 00:11:31,230 --> 00:11:32,790 care. The third puzzle begins with the 207 00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:37,270 gummo dial to you who the only and there's 2022 so can can I 208 00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:39,870 get to you know the whole all of space that's paragal if and 209 00:11:39,870 --> 00:11:42,870 parrot that's that way and Paragmmo is a triple and paragal 210 00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:45,350 is that way as well. Well that certainly suggests 211 00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:48,150 that the author seems to see order and I'll say something 212 00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:50,830 even more even deeper than that. I don't think I mentioned this 213 00:11:50,830 --> 00:11:54,430 in the introduction and that is that that that the first two 214 00:11:54,430 --> 00:11:58,790 profing of the base. Makes an enormously beautiful 215 00:11:58,790 --> 00:12:02,030 and precise chiastic structure. What do I mean by that? 216 00:12:02,350 --> 00:12:07,110 By that I mean that we have in Paragala, just as an example, we 217 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:11,150 have a word in the first puzzle, and that word is repeated in the 218 00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:16,950 last puzzle, so the word Rabba like ishfaya if Ishrava that. 219 00:12:16,950 --> 00:12:20,630 How does she sit alone? IR Rabbati on the populist city, 220 00:12:20,630 --> 00:12:24,750 Rabbati on and in the last puzzle puzzle, have bet, she 221 00:12:24,750 --> 00:12:26,900 says. Rub both unfold tie. 222 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:30,460 Many are my travails really be divine and my heart is woe. 223 00:12:30,820 --> 00:12:33,860 So you have there the same word in the first pussook and the 224 00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:36,140 last pusook. And if you check carefully you 225 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:39,460 will see you have a word in the second pussook which you find in 226 00:12:39,460 --> 00:12:42,060 the second to last pusook, and you have a word in the third 227 00:12:42,060 --> 00:12:45,020 pusook which you find in the 3rd to last pusook all the way 228 00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:45,980 through. And that's true. 229 00:12:45,980 --> 00:12:48,460 And parking out at the bed, I don't think you have another 230 00:12:48,460 --> 00:12:51,500 parrot in all of Tana, which is a perfect acrostic 231 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:55,530 alapekimovalid and. Holy chiastic in that way. 232 00:12:55,970 --> 00:12:59,890 This is super structured. So to say that the form just 233 00:12:59,890 --> 00:13:02,010 kind of like, you know the cutesy stuff on the side, oh, 234 00:13:02,050 --> 00:13:05,170 that was all very perfectly structured but then say but the 235 00:13:05,170 --> 00:13:07,690 content, it's just a mumble jumble which is really what 236 00:13:07,690 --> 00:13:11,290 scholars say. No, don't buy it guys work 237 00:13:11,290 --> 00:13:12,530 harder. Got to work harder. 238 00:13:13,570 --> 00:13:16,370 That's. I actually wonder, like when 239 00:13:16,370 --> 00:13:19,930 scholars are looking at that. I mean when you see a, I mean 240 00:13:19,930 --> 00:13:22,170 did they just not see a chiastic structure? 241 00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:24,910 Or do they just kind of see it but ignore it? 242 00:13:25,150 --> 00:13:26,910 How does that work? Because it's like, yeah, they. 243 00:13:26,910 --> 00:13:28,670 Ignore it. I think they think it's not 244 00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:32,350 true. The classic structure, Yeah. 245 00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:36,030 I don't know why, Blows me away. Yeah. 246 00:13:36,670 --> 00:13:45,510 OK, so, so, all right, so you are pointing towards you are you 247 00:13:45,510 --> 00:13:49,670 are agreeing with the fact that there's a multiplicity of 248 00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:51,150 voices. Who want to? 249 00:13:51,230 --> 00:13:54,690 Connect with that. But the drawback of just leaving 250 00:13:54,690 --> 00:13:58,170 it as that is that they're not seeing the structure that is, 251 00:13:58,410 --> 00:13:59,970 you know, inherent with. Right. 252 00:14:00,050 --> 00:14:02,330 And and and there's no one coherent voice. 253 00:14:02,330 --> 00:14:04,610 I'll tell you, I think a lot of a lot of scholars are drawn to 254 00:14:04,610 --> 00:14:07,570 this because of the postmodern moment that we live in. 255 00:14:08,050 --> 00:14:10,650 There was, yeah, there's no one truth, you know, there's lots of 256 00:14:10,650 --> 00:14:14,050 opinions and. Probably the author of A, by 257 00:14:14,050 --> 00:14:16,450 what they're saying was a postmodernist, but I don't think 258 00:14:16,450 --> 00:14:18,850 postmodernism existed back then, so I don't. 259 00:14:19,130 --> 00:14:20,930 Think I think you mentioned this in the introduction. 260 00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:23,050 You mentioned the Postmodern. That's right. 261 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:28,410 OK, so if we were to come to start to understand how to read 262 00:14:28,410 --> 00:14:31,650 this text properly, what is the proper departure point for 263 00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:33,490 understanding The Systematic Guy? 264 00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:38,330 So, so for me, the thing that we all need to to take note of, 265 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:40,370 it's not hard. You start to go through it. 266 00:14:40,370 --> 00:14:44,270 You notice it right away. Is that we clearly have 267 00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:48,230 different characters and voices within echo. 268 00:14:48,910 --> 00:14:50,790 What do I mean? Probably your Echo just like 269 00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:53,270 mine. It doesn't look like a script of 270 00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:55,710 of Shakespeare doesn't tell you who's speaking. 271 00:14:55,950 --> 00:15:01,190 But you can tell we have one character who who whenever that 272 00:15:01,190 --> 00:15:06,510 person speaks, is speaking about Usha line of Usha line in the 273 00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:11,110 third person as we have in the opening possible of the Magilla. 274 00:15:11,530 --> 00:15:17,410 Hey ha Yash Babaddad. Oh, or how does she sit alone? 275 00:15:18,130 --> 00:15:21,930 Here is someone Speaking of bassion of the the collective 276 00:15:21,930 --> 00:15:23,810 figure of the remnants of Yuri Sholain. 277 00:15:23,810 --> 00:15:25,730 He is speaking about Yuri Sholain. 278 00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:30,610 OK, and then we have many other sukim which are which are 279 00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:34,090 speaking about Yuri Sholain, but not in the third person, but in 280 00:15:34,090 --> 00:15:40,370 the first person. So for example in Perigalis plus 281 00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:44,190 of Ted Zion. I'll ale Annie Bochia that these 282 00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:49,870 I am I am crying a knee a knee your my water or tears are 283 00:15:49,870 --> 00:15:53,310 streaking down my my my my cheeks. 284 00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:56,950 And so we have here clearly many soaking that are in the third 285 00:15:56,950 --> 00:15:59,790 person that seems to be a narrator and I'll speak more 286 00:15:59,790 --> 00:16:02,590 about that narrator's function in a minute And then the first 287 00:16:02,590 --> 00:16:05,710 person he's speaking about your Shalayam and then we have 288 00:16:05,710 --> 00:16:08,550 thought you were he's we have your Shalayam herself speaking 289 00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:10,710 the figure that an amyghila is called. 290 00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:13,410 Bat Sion and they are in dialogue. 291 00:16:13,970 --> 00:16:16,450 The way I know that they're in dialogue is because we actually 292 00:16:16,450 --> 00:16:21,170 have many soaking where someone turns to another one in second 293 00:16:21,170 --> 00:16:24,050 person. So for example in Parrot Bet, 294 00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:29,450 maybe the most well known Paso to us because of Shlomo Karba 295 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:34,690 she think of my Rebec no ha Nehashem you have someone 296 00:16:34,690 --> 00:16:38,370 turning to Bat Sion and telling her to pour out her heart. 297 00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:44,660 Or when this narrator says to her also impaired, that kigado 298 00:16:44,660 --> 00:16:49,460 kayyam, she read your your your travails are as are as great as 299 00:16:49,460 --> 00:16:54,140 the ocean, me, your Pala. Who could possibly heal you. 300 00:16:54,140 --> 00:16:59,380 OK, So what The thing that would the the basic starting point is 301 00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:03,940 that we need to understand AIHA is a running discussion between 302 00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:08,540 two figures, a narrator and Batsy on herself. 303 00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:12,260 So now the question is, what more can we say about these two 304 00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:13,180 figures? Okay. 305 00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:17,460 So I want to say the following. Let me back up a little bit to 306 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:20,300 things that happened before the Mcgillum, I E during the period 307 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:23,300 of your Meow, And then that'll help us understand, to 308 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,140 understand who are these two characters here in the Mcgillum. 309 00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:29,900 So I'm sure all of us, whether you ever took a course in say, 310 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:31,940 for your meow or you've just read them, you know, in the 311 00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:34,980 hospital, then Shabbat, we all are familiar with the notion 312 00:17:34,980 --> 00:17:37,020 that your meow was not a popular guy. 313 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,400 In the period in the run up to the foreman that he would, you 314 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,680 know, try to relay his take on things as he received it from a 315 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,680 Finnish bar. Who, and for the most part the 316 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,040 populous of you shall lying, scorned him and didn't accept 317 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,120 the thing that he said, OK. And they were certain that 318 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:57,760 things would be otherwise. They believed in what we call 319 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,000 Zion theology. What does that mean? 320 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,480 Ashem loves us. Ashem loves the people of Seaum. 321 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,640 He loves that they submit. Those should see him. 322 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,260 He loves the city of Seaum. He loves the divinity king in 323 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:10,820 seal. This is what it means to be a 324 00:18:10,820 --> 00:18:12,580 firm Jew. To be a firm Jew means to 325 00:18:12,580 --> 00:18:14,980 believe those things. The love that we've the 326 00:18:14,980 --> 00:18:18,420 revolution has for all of us and anyone that questions the love 327 00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:21,580 that the revolution has for us is a heritage and therefore your 328 00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:25,620 meow is a heritage. The most shocking thing to my 329 00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:29,820 mind, not only in Ciprio Meow. The most shocking thing in the 330 00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:35,540 entire 10 for me personally is what I would call the chapter 331 00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:38,470 that never took place. That is, that after the whole 332 00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:43,070 bun, when everything that Year Meow said came true, we would 333 00:18:43,070 --> 00:18:45,470 have expected that the people would then come to your meow and 334 00:18:45,470 --> 00:18:49,950 say, oh year meow, you were right and we were wrong. 335 00:18:50,270 --> 00:18:53,870 And I shall know the God know Gazano di Barnodolfi or 336 00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:55,470 something like that, you know easily. 337 00:18:56,030 --> 00:18:58,510 And it never happens. It never happens. 338 00:18:58,630 --> 00:19:00,790 Worse, they come to him and they scorn him. 339 00:19:02,450 --> 00:19:05,370 And then we have the the Cadalia is put into is put into place 340 00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:08,770 and loyalists to the king who can't fathom the notion of 341 00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:11,730 someone not from our who's based of it, come along and kill him. 342 00:19:12,530 --> 00:19:18,170 But differently even after the hormone nothing has changed for 343 00:19:18,170 --> 00:19:20,930 Bacio, nothing has changed for the people of Jewish are lying. 344 00:19:21,050 --> 00:19:24,770 They are still ensconced in their opinion that a punished 345 00:19:24,770 --> 00:19:27,730 bar who loves them and he loves Rich a lion and he loves the 346 00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:30,290 base of Mccosh. Let me if that sounds but that's 347 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:32,090 crazy. How can you possibly say that, 348 00:19:32,090 --> 00:19:32,650 Berman? How? 349 00:19:32,650 --> 00:19:35,210 What do you mean? Didn't they have eyes? 350 00:19:35,370 --> 00:19:37,770 Couldn't they see that they were going to take in place? 351 00:19:38,450 --> 00:19:40,050 And here this is, Friends, Where? 352 00:19:40,050 --> 00:19:40,650 Where? What? 353 00:19:40,650 --> 00:19:43,930 What we see in the world around us today is so illustrative 354 00:19:44,770 --> 00:19:46,170 because think of the following, Friends. 355 00:19:46,170 --> 00:19:48,170 Think of the following, the following phenomenon. 356 00:19:48,170 --> 00:19:50,690 Because they're all related. They're all expressions of the 357 00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:55,290 same thing. Holocaust denial Denial about 358 00:19:55,290 --> 00:19:57,830 climate change. So I don't know on the day like 359 00:19:57,830 --> 00:19:59,870 today, it's so hot here. I don't know how anybody could 360 00:19:59,870 --> 00:20:01,990 deny climate change. From what I understand, it's 361 00:20:02,110 --> 00:20:04,630 almost no different. Almost no no matter where you're 362 00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:06,630 hearing this podcast from on the face of the earth. 363 00:20:07,030 --> 00:20:09,230 But there are plenty of people who will deny climate change has 364 00:20:09,230 --> 00:20:11,670 nothing to do with carbon emissions, etcetera, etcetera. 365 00:20:12,990 --> 00:20:17,750 Anti vaxxers, people who claim that that the election in 2020 366 00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:19,590 U.S. presidential elections were stolen. 367 00:20:20,430 --> 00:20:24,630 What all these have in common is that people who have these 368 00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:26,950 beliefs. Varnished health in is they 369 00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:29,910 saying it is nothing will ever budget them from what they from 370 00:20:29,910 --> 00:20:32,430 what they are believing. It isn't as though if you bring 371 00:20:32,430 --> 00:20:35,710 yet you know, let me bring another proof from science. 372 00:20:35,710 --> 00:20:40,200 You know about that vaccinations against the against Kovat are 373 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,640 not dangerous. Or let me let me just, you know, 374 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,360 dig up some more remains from Soviet wars they're trying to do 375 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:46,560 now. You know the kind the the 376 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,480 extermination camp. I I heard an archaeologist there 377 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,520 recently who's working there. He says here these these these 378 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,440 things that we have found with people's names and stuff. 379 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,200 This is what we'll demonstrate so that nobody will ever be able 380 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,320 to say it didn't happen. Sorry. 381 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:02,840 People will continue to say that it didn't happen. 382 00:21:03,450 --> 00:21:05,210 What is this? What all these things? 383 00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:08,930 That all, They're all described by social psychologists as 384 00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:12,370 expressions of what they call belief persistence. 385 00:21:12,530 --> 00:21:16,490 This is when you have a community of people that latches 386 00:21:16,490 --> 00:21:20,090 on to a certain sense of reality, certain depiction of 387 00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:25,290 reality that is totally cut off from any empirical truth, that 388 00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:27,850 no amounts of proof will move them from where they are. 389 00:21:28,290 --> 00:21:34,030 Because we're people who deny the Holocaust to have to admit 390 00:21:34,030 --> 00:21:36,750 that there was such a thing, or any of the other examples that I 391 00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:40,870 gave, apparently it would undermine something deeply core 392 00:21:40,990 --> 00:21:44,470 to their collective identity. And so there's no seeing the 393 00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:46,830 truth, no hearing the truth, no speaking the truth. 394 00:21:47,910 --> 00:21:51,830 This is the problem of Batsy. Own Batsy. 395 00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:56,580 Own the collective remnants of You Shall I after The Horbun has 396 00:21:56,580 --> 00:22:00,340 not changed one iota because it's too easy for her to remain 397 00:22:00,340 --> 00:22:01,980 where she is Either was a horrbun. 398 00:22:02,180 --> 00:22:05,700 Her emotion had a bad day. He was out for lunch on that 399 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:06,980 day. The babbling was stronger. 400 00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:10,220 But he loves us. He absolutely loves us and they 401 00:22:10,220 --> 00:22:12,020 want to hold on to that. It's comforting. 402 00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:14,260 Not only that, it makes life easy for them. 403 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:16,740 Nothing has to change. It's the country for who has to 404 00:22:16,780 --> 00:22:19,220 keep up his end of the deal. They don't have to change, 405 00:22:19,540 --> 00:22:20,940 right? Right. 406 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:25,380 This is where ECHA begins. Hear me out. 407 00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:29,260 Can't countenance that. And so in a car we have two 408 00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:32,300 figures. There is the narrator, because 409 00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,660 he's never named. That's why I'm using that term. 410 00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:38,140 K there is the narrator and we'll discuss, you know, you're 411 00:22:38,140 --> 00:22:39,500 meow. We can discuss that in a second. 412 00:22:39,860 --> 00:22:42,380 But I'm just working with what is within the text itself. 413 00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:47,780 K There is a narrator, and this is somebody who apparently has 414 00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:50,620 exactly the hush koffa that you're meow did. 415 00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,020 This is someone who can be critical. 416 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,320 Lava Misra, but also supportive of a Misra. 417 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,880 And the role of the narrator in dialogue with Batsyone is, I 418 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,400 would say, almost like a counselor involved in therapy 419 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,960 with a client. The narrator sees his job as 420 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,440 taking Batsyone and awakening her from her La La Land, her 421 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,150 view of the Ribona Shalola as Santa Claus, as the smiling 422 00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:25,710 grandfather in the sky who just loves us and loves Sea Young and 423 00:23:25,710 --> 00:23:28,590 loves the base of MC Dush and loves Malco space dubbing. 424 00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:32,750 The problem is going to be as often as the case in a therapy 425 00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:36,350 setting when people have big delusions that they're using to 426 00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:39,550 help shield them from the painful things in reality is 427 00:23:39,550 --> 00:23:42,470 that when they are welcome to the reality, it is shattering. 428 00:23:42,790 --> 00:23:45,590 It is painful. And this is what it ultimately 429 00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:48,150 what happens about Sea Young once she realizes, Oh my gosh, 430 00:23:48,830 --> 00:23:51,150 there are Boneshallum is really angry with me. 431 00:23:51,550 --> 00:23:54,990 He doesn't love, he doesn't love Malcolm Beta and he doesn't love 432 00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:57,910 you, Shalain. Well, that's he did all this, 433 00:23:58,310 --> 00:24:00,910 all this suffering, all these starving children are from him. 434 00:24:02,270 --> 00:24:04,670 So it's totally shattering. And the narrator has to help her 435 00:24:04,670 --> 00:24:07,390 pick up the pieces. What I see happening in AHA is a 436 00:24:07,390 --> 00:24:11,070 series of dialogues around those themes, getting her to realize 437 00:24:11,070 --> 00:24:13,590 the truth and then helping her pick up the pieces. 438 00:24:14,190 --> 00:24:18,990 That's the opening Gabbit. So who who do you feel is the 439 00:24:19,070 --> 00:24:23,510 narrator of the text? OK so so there's there's two 440 00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:25,910 questions. There's who is the author of 441 00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:27,190 Aikha? And who is the narrator? 442 00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:31,990 OK, so there. So obviously Kazal said this was 443 00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:34,710 both I guess really certainly the author was your meow. 444 00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:38,550 And maybe also the narrator, the guy who is saying Ekha yash 445 00:24:38,550 --> 00:24:43,230 bhava dad, you know how is how is or whoa the city sits alone 446 00:24:43,390 --> 00:24:46,380 that that was your meow. So modern scholars say the 447 00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:49,420 following. They say look look Aiha doesn't 448 00:24:49,420 --> 00:24:51,500 say one way or the other who its author was. 449 00:24:51,620 --> 00:24:55,740 It also does not identify the narrator person. 450 00:24:56,780 --> 00:25:02,460 And some say look you know you have so many opinions in Aiha 451 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:04,500 that don't sound like you're meow. 452 00:25:04,540 --> 00:25:07,660 That's one of the ones that I said before can we imagine, 453 00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:12,900 Aiha, can we excuse me, can we imagine hear Meow saying to the 454 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:17,140 Ribona Shalom Tarakhta theomapeka, you killed my 455 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:20,940 children on the day of your wrath, Tavaka Lochamalta. 456 00:25:20,940 --> 00:25:22,860 You slaughtered them. You had no mercy. 457 00:25:23,140 --> 00:25:24,460 That doesn't sound like you're meow. 458 00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:28,140 So a lot of scholars say, listen we have too many psukim in this 459 00:25:28,140 --> 00:25:30,780 in this text that just don't sound like you're meow. 460 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:34,300 And so they are a little bit reluctant to say that it was 461 00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:37,340 here Meow. They also say look when we read 462 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:41,340 the the book of Here Meow what we see is that by the end of the 463 00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:44,980 book here meow is in Egypt. He goes down to me trying with 464 00:25:44,980 --> 00:25:48,020 everybody else never says that he came back doesn't say doesn't 465 00:25:48,020 --> 00:25:50,100 say that he died there. But you don't get the end of 466 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:53,860 your meow's life. To which I say the following Yes 467 00:25:53,860 --> 00:25:59,620 it is true we have many tooking in EJA that don't sound like 468 00:25:59,620 --> 00:26:01,860 your meow that we know from his safer. 469 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:05,460 But when you see when you break apart the Mcgiller the way I 470 00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:10,380 said look who is speaking about your show in the third person 471 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,880 and look who is speaking about Ushalayan as her own self. 472 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,520 Then what you will notice is that all of the that don't sound 473 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,720 like you're meow are batsy on that's Ushalain speaking and 474 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,000 that all the that are the narrative, this kind of mentor, 475 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,320 this kind of pastoral you know communal rabbi who's trying to 476 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,720 you know work with someone in the community is having a 477 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,600 difficult time. You know, get her to wake up and 478 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,920 realize things, help her through her difficult crises. 479 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,000 All of those so can fit beautifully with your meal. 480 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,640 So I say the following. Because I told this is your 481 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,720 meal, I have no reason necessarily to deny that. 482 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,440 OK, But I will say that even if it was not your meal that wrote 483 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,720 this, it is clear that the author of Acub wants Batsyone to 484 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,800 see the narrator as someone who just happens to have exactly the 485 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,520 ashkafa of your meal. And I would say also the 486 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,600 gravitas and the authority that he had as well. 487 00:27:07,310 --> 00:27:09,670 So if it isn't your meow, then it's a made-up figure that's 488 00:27:09,670 --> 00:27:11,590 pretty close to your meow. That's what I would say. 489 00:27:12,750 --> 00:27:15,150 Almost like speaking for your meow. 490 00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:18,950 Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what you, meow, might 491 00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:21,950 have said. To a certain extent, yeah. 492 00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:23,070 Yeah. Yeah. 493 00:27:24,510 --> 00:27:29,230 All right. And towards the latter half of 494 00:27:29,230 --> 00:27:32,750 your introduction, when you start to piece together the 495 00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:35,870 whole picture, you speak about collective trauma theory. 496 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,640 Can you discuss collective trauma theory and how you apply 497 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,000 that into okay, Okay, okay Here, let me, let me, let me, let me. 498 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,600 Because that all sounds very academic. 499 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,200 Let me, let me, let me give a very pathless shocking example, 500 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,600 okay, of what I'm talking about here. 501 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,000 If I were to say to you and ask you a question, it's going to 502 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,520 sound absurd. Okay, A really absurd question. 503 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,200 Jews that came over from Europe after the war, let's say to the 504 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,800 US, who had endured the war in Europe. 505 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,240 When did those people become survivors? 506 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,040 And you say, what a silly question. 507 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:20,800 What does that mean? Even? 508 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,240 I don't know. I mean what answer could one 509 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,040 possibly give to such an absurd question? 510 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,480 Well, maybe when? They're recognized as such. 511 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,200 I mean, when they're recognized as such. 512 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,120 If you're not recognized as a survivor and you're. 513 00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:35,390 Then you're essentially your your survivor. 514 00:28:35,390 --> 00:28:37,870 Maybe within yourself, but not within the people. 515 00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:39,710 Okay, okay. That's one. 516 00:28:39,710 --> 00:28:43,230 That's one answer. Consider this thing, you know, 517 00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:44,630 you might have thought, I don't know, maybe they became 518 00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:48,030 survivors the day they weren't. Maybe they became survivors 519 00:28:48,030 --> 00:28:50,710 whenever their particular area of Europe was liberated. 520 00:28:51,030 --> 00:28:54,750 Maybe they became survivors when they arrived, you know, at on 521 00:28:54,750 --> 00:28:56,830 safe shores. Who cares? 522 00:28:56,870 --> 00:28:58,070 I mean, they're survivors, right? 523 00:28:58,070 --> 00:28:59,870 That's, that's the main thing. These people are survivors. 524 00:29:00,390 --> 00:29:05,200 And I will tell you, they became survivors in 1979. 525 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,640 They say, well, what's that mean? 526 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,080 So here's what I mean. People that came over after the 527 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,680 war, the people in the US had many different types of names 528 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,680 for them. Sometimes they were called 529 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,920 immigrants. Sometimes they were called 530 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,280 refugees. Sometimes they were called 531 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,000 displaced persons. In Yiddish, they were called 532 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,600 greening, you know, like greenhorns, like greenies, like 533 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,560 newbies, kind of. In our, in our modern parlance, 534 00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:36,660 they were never called survivors, never in the 40s and 535 00:29:36,660 --> 00:29:39,780 50s, never. And that's shocking to us 536 00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:42,140 because if I were to ask you, what do you call someone who 537 00:29:42,140 --> 00:29:44,780 endured the war, you said that that's a survivor. 538 00:29:45,020 --> 00:29:47,620 That's the only rush on that we use today, that they are 539 00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:50,140 survivors. So what do I mean that it 540 00:29:50,140 --> 00:29:52,860 changed in 1979. So here's, here's what changed. 541 00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:56,220 OK. In 1976, those of us of a 542 00:29:56,220 --> 00:30:01,690 certain age will recall 77. There was a blockbuster TV 543 00:30:01,690 --> 00:30:04,370 series back in the day when there was this thing called TV, 544 00:30:04,450 --> 00:30:06,570 you know, that we all watched because it was nothing else. 545 00:30:06,570 --> 00:30:08,610 So everybody watched TV called Roots. 546 00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:12,290 Roots was about, you know, the history of a black family from 547 00:30:12,290 --> 00:30:17,050 slavery through through liberation and and and on for 548 00:30:17,050 --> 00:30:20,370 the next century. It kind of traced ethnicity and 549 00:30:20,370 --> 00:30:22,650 made ethnicity cool for the first time. 550 00:30:23,130 --> 00:30:26,380 And then, once that was done already for blacks and black 551 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:29,380 history as slaves, we'll assume the Jews got on the boat and 552 00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:30,860 said, Oh well, we have a history too. 553 00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:33,220 Here we're going to make this blockbuster series called 554 00:30:33,220 --> 00:30:36,300 Holocaust, which appeared in the late 70s in the United States, 555 00:30:36,340 --> 00:30:38,500 Okay. As a movie, it looks like a 4-5. 556 00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:42,100 You know, the whole country watched Holocaust for like 4 or 557 00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:45,540 five consecutive nights. Now suddenly whoa. 558 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:49,180 This whole story of bearing witness and telling about the 559 00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:53,540 events that happened took on an entirely new, new, new color. 560 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,280 When Jews first came over after the war, nobody wanted to hear 561 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,120 their stories. It was like, OK, folks, you're 562 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,560 here. All right, get with the program. 563 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,760 Become American and fast. There was no Yo Mashalan. 564 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,560 There was no Holocaust remembrance. 565 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,560 There were no Holocaust chairs in any universities. 566 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,200 It was just not talked about, not even within the Jewish 567 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,560 community. Well, by the late 70s, this was 568 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,390 like really important. And this is where, you know, 569 00:31:22,590 --> 00:31:25,590 today the term survivor, when there's so few of them left, you 570 00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:28,350 know, is charged almost like these people have like, like an 571 00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:31,790 aura of to them just by virtue of what they went through, you 572 00:31:31,790 --> 00:31:33,190 know, we have such, like reverence for them. 573 00:31:34,030 --> 00:31:36,070 That's all something that changed over time. 574 00:31:36,990 --> 00:31:40,310 This is what I mean about trauma theory, that that, you know, the 575 00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:42,470 facts themselves are what people endured. 576 00:31:43,230 --> 00:31:46,710 All of them gets shaped and is processed in different ways. 577 00:31:47,390 --> 00:31:50,600 Early on when the people came over, when the Jewish community 578 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,960 in the United States wasn't as strong as it was today, it was 579 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,600 like, okay, just let's not talk about that and just kind of get 580 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,080 get Americans quickly as you can. 581 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,960 You are an immigrant. You're a displaced person. 582 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,480 You're a refugee. You know, there's nothing 583 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,440 special about you. And we're not gonna celebrate 584 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,400 you. We're not gonna put you on a 585 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,880 special pedestal. But by the late 70s, all of that 586 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:07,480 is now. Whoa. 587 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:08,640 No. You know, trauma is something 588 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,760 that the community holds onto, and it makes a story of heroism 589 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,560 about it. I mean just the word survivor, 590 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,760 you know, the words to like survivor, you know like Lahavia, 591 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,640 Olafa, they have dollars. You know the the the TV series 592 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,640 Survivor, you know gritty and determination. 593 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,360 You know those are all the the things that are Latin into this 594 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,240 term. When we say a Holocaust survivor 595 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,040 it was their spirit. They, they, they they had grit 596 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,960 determination. They had, they had the Masoro, 597 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,560 the faith on all those things. Those are not all given. 598 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,080 That was all constructs that we that we added to them from the 599 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,100 late 70s. So what we see from this little 600 00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:48,700 lesson here about just the very language that we all use today 601 00:32:49,060 --> 00:32:54,420 is that that communal catastrophe gets shaped and 602 00:32:54,420 --> 00:32:57,220 molded in different ways at different times. 603 00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:01,100 Elie Wiesel was the one who basically brought to the fore 604 00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:04,900 the notion of bearing witness. This is important to tell these 605 00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:07,540 stories. Well, his his initial book night 606 00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:10,980 1960. Before 1960, nobody talked about 607 00:33:10,980 --> 00:33:11,940 the Holocaust. Really. 608 00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:16,730 Nobody right now. Now we come back to you know 609 00:33:16,730 --> 00:33:19,530 maybe the first shalas, it were the hormone, right. 610 00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:23,850 Hormone by resham. And the question is after after 611 00:33:23,850 --> 00:33:26,810 the after the hormone, what do we make of what happened? 612 00:33:27,610 --> 00:33:29,570 What's the narrative that we tell ourselves. 613 00:33:30,850 --> 00:33:34,410 So one narrative might be just like the first time that Foxy 614 00:33:34,410 --> 00:33:38,090 own speaks, you know this collective personality of you. 615 00:33:38,090 --> 00:33:40,090 Shall I? The first time she speaks, The 616 00:33:40,090 --> 00:33:44,720 first time we hear her, actually shows just how off her 617 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,720 interpretation of events really was, she says to Asham. 618 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,120 Something so simple, something so piatistic, something that 619 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,600 would be so easily part of our to hill. 620 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,840 And if, you know, if Rahmano is fun, something bad happened to 621 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,880 the Jewish people today, she says. 622 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,520 Where a Hashem. It's on ye oh behold the Kurdish 623 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,199 bar. Who my, my, my suffering. 624 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:09,040 He. He. 625 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:09,960 He. Oh, yeah. 626 00:34:10,630 --> 00:34:12,870 Because the the enemy has triumphed. 627 00:34:13,830 --> 00:34:17,230 That is her take on the hormone. You don't have to look at me. 628 00:34:17,230 --> 00:34:19,230 You have not noticed me. You've been out to lunch. 629 00:34:19,830 --> 00:34:21,590 They've been away. I want you to notice me. 630 00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:24,909 And look what's happened here. Hey, deal again. 631 00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:27,550 The enemy is triumph. That's the hormone. 632 00:34:27,630 --> 00:34:29,870 The Babylonians were strong. That's how she sees it. 633 00:34:30,670 --> 00:34:34,030 That is totally off. Yes, the Babylonians were 634 00:34:34,030 --> 00:34:36,750 strong, but she doesn't see this is off from Shemain. 635 00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:39,670 She doesn't see that. It's her own actions that let a 636 00:34:39,670 --> 00:34:44,670 punish sparkle to do this. OK, So what I see Ayha as as a 637 00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:47,190 remolding of what what the hormone was all about. 638 00:34:47,389 --> 00:34:50,830 It is literally staged. It is a play. 639 00:34:51,230 --> 00:34:55,830 It is a play with two characters, this narrator and 640 00:34:55,830 --> 00:34:59,270 Bacion. And what the author of Ayha is 641 00:34:59,270 --> 00:35:03,670 doing is putting on a production for the purpose, for the benefit 642 00:35:04,190 --> 00:35:06,920 of the the the Tosha. They were, shall I, the 643 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,880 inhabitants of New Shaline after the Horbun under occupation, 644 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,280 reeling from destruction as to how they're supposed to view or 645 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,080 how they're supposed to make the move from being ensconced in 646 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,760 their previous La La land of Zion theology stuck in belief 647 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,480 persistence. I have my beliefs, and they're 648 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,840 always going to be true. To shatter those and then to 649 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,780 show models of how your meow the pastoral mentor. 650 00:35:35,780 --> 00:35:40,260 The narrator brings Batsyone through several discussions to 651 00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:44,180 see things the right way And in my mind what we have here, the 652 00:35:44,180 --> 00:35:46,020 reason there are several discussions, there's several 653 00:35:46,020 --> 00:35:50,820 property is because Batsyone is really not one single character. 654 00:35:50,820 --> 00:35:55,020 Batsyone is always the the I would say the survivors of the 655 00:35:55,020 --> 00:35:56,980 hormone. But we know from our own that 656 00:35:57,060 --> 00:36:00,900 our own experience, the survivors of the Shalan, even 657 00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:05,030 those that continued to to adhere to the Masora and 658 00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:08,630 different views about things. And so each parrot takes a 659 00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:12,990 different religious typology and shows how you meow works with 660 00:36:12,990 --> 00:36:14,750 her. OK. 661 00:36:14,750 --> 00:36:19,070 So that would lead into to the to the last question regarding 662 00:36:19,070 --> 00:36:24,350 can you go through the structure of the of the Five Pro Kim, how 663 00:36:24,350 --> 00:36:27,830 they kind of flow into each other or how it how it bounces 664 00:36:27,830 --> 00:36:33,510 off each other and based on what you said so so Lamentations is 665 00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:36,460 really. Contextualized to to be the the 666 00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:40,060 generation after the the destruction 6th century you were 667 00:36:40,060 --> 00:36:43,820 going to talk and and so just to kind of sum up what you said to 668 00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:47,540 make sure I understood it. Batzion is really a 669 00:36:47,540 --> 00:36:51,580 conglamorative voices that was expressed at that time and the 670 00:36:51,580 --> 00:36:57,860 narrator is going to contend deal with each of those voices 671 00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:03,140 and try to educate those those voices. 672 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,280 Yeah. So let me And yeah, instead of 673 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,320 maybe going through all 5 prepping which will be a little 674 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:09,440 bit difficult in the time we have. 675 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,880 But let me let me just show how this works within a single 676 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:12,760 parrot. OK. 677 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,440 So in Peric bit. In Peric bit what we have is 678 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,840 that the first half of the parrot only the narrator speaks. 679 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,760 And what he does is he shows no less than 27 ways in which a 680 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,120 punish girl, who bull Bam Bash destroyed, obliterated 681 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,720 everything having to do with crucial line. 682 00:37:34,100 --> 00:37:38,980 And he does it repeatedly by using the Lechonot Hiba the kind 683 00:37:38,980 --> 00:37:42,820 of the the terms of endearment with which she was lying thought 684 00:37:42,820 --> 00:37:44,940 about herself. Let me explain what I mean. 685 00:37:45,220 --> 00:37:49,380 For example, in Pasuk Alif of Parrot Bent, what did the Shem 686 00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:51,580 do? He shlik me. 687 00:37:51,580 --> 00:37:55,660 Shamaim Eretz he threw down from the heavens to the earth. 688 00:37:56,140 --> 00:38:00,140 He's the Erik Israel, the glory of Israel, right? 689 00:38:00,220 --> 00:38:02,180 That's in her own eyes, the glory of Israel. 690 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,440 For the low Zahar Hadoma glove, the Oma Po. 691 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,640 And he didn't remember his footstool. i.e., the base of 692 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,960 Miktosh. That's how Batsyone viewed the 693 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,640 base of Miktosh. This is the Kurdish borough 694 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,480 whose footstool he's not going to destroy it. 695 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:20,960 And so Yumi I was expressing himself in the ways in which 696 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,440 Batsyone had thought of a sham, the thought of your Shaline and 697 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:33,020 the thought of the Mikkan. The Bob Lim was stronger that 698 00:38:33,020 --> 00:38:34,660 day. Everything that happened, 699 00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:37,540 Ashchem was there and doing it. And it's not the Bobbi. 700 00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:39,260 He doesn't mention the Bob Lim anywhere. 701 00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:41,860 In fact, he says that Ashchem is the Oyev. 702 00:38:42,220 --> 00:38:47,340 He says Dara Kashto K Oyev. He he pulled his bow like, like 703 00:38:47,340 --> 00:38:49,780 a like like an enemy, like the Oyev. 704 00:38:51,860 --> 00:38:54,940 Oyev, Bilal Israel like an enemy he swallowed up Israel. 705 00:38:55,580 --> 00:38:58,740 All of this is to say the batch, the I'm grabbing you by the 706 00:38:58,740 --> 00:39:01,740 hotel. I want you to understand, God 707 00:39:01,940 --> 00:39:05,020 did this, and he did this to you, and he did this in spite of 708 00:39:05,060 --> 00:39:06,900 all the ways in which you think that he'd loved you. 709 00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:10,820 Well, Bassian hears that. I mean, imagine. 710 00:39:10,980 --> 00:39:12,740 I mean, imagine how shattering that is. 711 00:39:13,340 --> 00:39:17,540 I'll say here that that I, I, I, I, I recall in order to 712 00:39:17,540 --> 00:39:21,060 understand how Bastille might feel about this, I was once tell 713 00:39:21,060 --> 00:39:23,020 you a story. I was once at an academic 714 00:39:23,020 --> 00:39:26,540 conference. I was at a dinner and there were 715 00:39:26,540 --> 00:39:29,860 two Bible scholars engaged in the conversation. 716 00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:33,510 One says to the other, you know, let me tell you something. 717 00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:37,670 I don't believe in God. And the other Bible scholar 718 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:40,750 says, you know what? Me either. 719 00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:44,070 And the first one says, tell you something else. 720 00:39:45,150 --> 00:39:48,310 If I did believe in God, I would be very angry at him. 721 00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:50,790 And the second guy says, yeah, me too. 722 00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:55,030 And from this I learned something that I later 723 00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:57,870 discovered that that psychologists of religion have 724 00:39:57,870 --> 00:40:03,510 known the study once done of patients lo aleno in a hospital 725 00:40:03,510 --> 00:40:07,230 ward for chronic pain. And they were discovered, they 726 00:40:07,230 --> 00:40:11,030 were trying to assess the religious attitudes of patients 727 00:40:11,350 --> 00:40:13,870 suffering from chronic pain all the time. 728 00:40:13,870 --> 00:40:15,750 Pain, pain pain pain pain. Lo aleno. 729 00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:19,110 And what they discovered was something shocking that the 730 00:40:19,110 --> 00:40:23,150 patients who were the most angry at God were the patients who 731 00:40:23,150 --> 00:40:25,110 most often said they didn't believe in God. 732 00:40:26,190 --> 00:40:30,430 You say to me. Berman That's illogical. 733 00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:34,950 And I will say to you that that logic ends where pain begins, 734 00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:37,830 OK? Meaning that sometimes when 735 00:40:37,830 --> 00:40:41,590 people are really angry at God, there's only two choices, to 736 00:40:41,630 --> 00:40:44,790 either be angry at God or to dis God altogether. 737 00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:47,030 I'm out of here. I'm finished with that. 738 00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:50,030 OK, you hear me. All know that when he shatters 739 00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:53,830 Botsyon's delusion about God, she's going to be very He 740 00:40:53,870 --> 00:40:57,630 brought all this on me. And so he never, never in 741 00:40:57,630 --> 00:41:00,390 anywhere in that parrot In parrot that he doesn't say a bad 742 00:41:00,390 --> 00:41:02,550 word about Ruchelon. He didn't say, yeah well, you 743 00:41:02,550 --> 00:41:04,430 know, it's your fault. No, he never says that. 744 00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:07,030 Never says that. He sits down on the floor next 745 00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:11,110 to her and cries with her because because she needs that. 746 00:41:11,110 --> 00:41:13,390 She needs the support. She needs to see that he's not 747 00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:15,950 critical of her. She needs to see that that he is 748 00:41:15,950 --> 00:41:19,110 with him and he really cries genuinely And Yao is part of 749 00:41:19,110 --> 00:41:21,750 army strone. And then he says there, you know 750 00:41:21,750 --> 00:41:24,270 what I want you to approach to a punish problem. 751 00:41:24,270 --> 00:41:26,900 This is that famous possible she can come mine. 752 00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:30,260 Rebeck no company a sham. Why don't you unload your heart 753 00:41:30,260 --> 00:41:32,300 to a sham? It's not clear exactly what he 754 00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:34,300 means by that. Does he mean that that she 755 00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:39,100 should Dobbin ask professor, Or perhaps protest? 756 00:41:39,540 --> 00:41:42,220 And where she takes it to is totally a place of protest 757 00:41:42,940 --> 00:41:45,020 Anger. She expresses her anger. 758 00:41:45,020 --> 00:41:48,380 That's something that we read before when she ends that parent 759 00:41:48,380 --> 00:41:52,140 by seeing her rock W Matefa. You killed my children. 760 00:41:52,140 --> 00:41:54,720 On the day of your anger, Avahta Locha, Malta. 761 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:57,320 You massacred them. You had no pity. 762 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,520 That's the end of the para. And it's remarkable. 763 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,880 Like, wait a minute, wait, this is the end of the para being 764 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,240 angry. God, there's no Cuba. 765 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,840 There's no censure of her for being angry. 766 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,480 And I think the answer is, is that you're meow, the author of 767 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,160 ASA. They know very well just what I 768 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,280 said before. You know about those two guys at 769 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,800 the conference. There are people in this world 770 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,000 who've had a very hard time, and the place that leaves them vis A 771 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,400 vis God is one of two options. I will be angry at him or I will 772 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,920 be finished with him. Given those two choices, your 773 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,480 meow wants Fat CEO to be angry with God. 774 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,800 Better to be angry with God. That's just God altogether. 775 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,880 And so your meow gives a hasher to say there are times when 776 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,320 you're allowed to be angry at God, and it's good. 777 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,600 It's good when we're able to yell at each other. 778 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,720 That's much better. I much prefer when my children 779 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:51,880 yell at me than when they tune me out. 780 00:42:52,370 --> 00:42:54,610 Oh, that's the worst. Two me out is the worst, OK? 781 00:42:54,810 --> 00:42:57,970 Because when they yell at me, then they're still engaged and 782 00:42:57,970 --> 00:42:59,370 they're able to express themselves. 783 00:42:59,450 --> 00:43:01,090 They're able to process their own feelings. 784 00:43:01,090 --> 00:43:06,330 OK, that's what you meow wants for batsy young to express her 785 00:43:06,330 --> 00:43:08,530 anger. That's why it's the end of 786 00:43:08,530 --> 00:43:10,090 parapet, not the end of the Mcgillo. 787 00:43:11,130 --> 00:43:13,610 Perry Gimmel is then me and gave. 788 00:43:13,610 --> 00:43:16,690 There is you meow saying OKI hear your pain Batsy young. 789 00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:19,850 Now let me tell you something. I've also had a hard time to 790 00:43:19,850 --> 00:43:21,660 push borrow. Let me tell you about my 791 00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:23,020 personal problems with the French world. 792 00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:25,180 Then he tells his own story from several year meow. 793 00:43:25,180 --> 00:43:28,220 You know I was scorned and thrown into a pit and and you 794 00:43:28,220 --> 00:43:30,380 know people wanted to kill me and I didn't understand why I 795 00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:32,620 was doing this to me because all I was doing was what he wanted 796 00:43:32,620 --> 00:43:34,180 me to do. So like what the hell is this 797 00:43:34,180 --> 00:43:38,820 you know and and so he shows how he was also angry at God and how 798 00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:42,100 he turned it around. OK, this is how the flow begins 799 00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:43,700 to work here. Amazing. 800 00:43:44,380 --> 00:43:48,780 That's really amazing. One of one of the aspirations of 801 00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:52,510 our podcast was to. Introduce our viewers to the 802 00:43:52,510 --> 00:43:58,070 nuance and beauty of Tanaq, something that is neglected 803 00:43:58,550 --> 00:44:03,830 unfortunately in some of the religious circles today and we 804 00:44:03,830 --> 00:44:07,550 really appreciate you coming in and and providing us this 805 00:44:08,070 --> 00:44:10,470 unbelievable introduction to Lamentations. 806 00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:13,830 I'm going to be honest. Echo was one of those books of 807 00:44:13,830 --> 00:44:17,150 Tanaq that it was very difficult for me to open up. 808 00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:21,320 And and and sure, sure. It's one of those that you kind 809 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,560 of would go through it and then kind of just put it aside. 810 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,680 And now I really want to go through it properly. 811 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,000 I want to use your book as a guide. 812 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,920 And you know, and it's really incredible. 813 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:32,960 Thank you. Right. 814 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,160 Let me just say, I know the things I've been saying, you 815 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,040 know, yes, God can hate on this room and they can be angry. 816 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,920 A lot of people that's like, what do you mean? 817 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,960 I mean I thought a shame always wants us and there's always a 818 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,960 breeds. And you know it's especially 819 00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:51,020 when people on Tisha Bob learn Ekharaba okay the medrich to 820 00:44:51,020 --> 00:44:55,780 Ekha Ekharaba is totally a different world than Ekha itself 821 00:44:56,220 --> 00:44:58,820 And Ekharaba a country bar who brings the Corbin and he's 822 00:44:58,820 --> 00:45:02,180 crying and crying and my children and oh you're yoy and 823 00:45:02,180 --> 00:45:04,660 oh you're yoy. But Ekharaba is written much 824 00:45:04,660 --> 00:45:07,260 later. You know Ekha is written in the 825 00:45:07,260 --> 00:45:09,660 heat of the moment. This is right after the Corbin. 826 00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:11,180 I'm so needs to learn the lesson. 827 00:45:11,420 --> 00:45:14,980 Ekharaba, written by Hazal centuries later, are like can't 828 00:45:14,980 --> 00:45:17,100 be that a Kurdish bar who's angry with us forever? 829 00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:20,820 And so a Kurdish bar who becomes a much more sympathetic figure 830 00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:23,340 in a Carrabba than we have in A itself. 831 00:45:23,940 --> 00:45:25,820 Interesting. So, So what you're really 832 00:45:25,820 --> 00:45:31,900 expressing is that hazal there is there is a certain amount of 833 00:45:33,060 --> 00:45:36,460 I guess I don't know if the word would be context, that meaning 834 00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:40,220 the hazal have their own context, but that's right. 835 00:45:41,060 --> 00:45:44,230 And and. When it's written, has its own 836 00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:46,230 context. So you correct absolutely 837 00:45:46,750 --> 00:45:49,750 symmetry between the two. There's going to be everyone's 838 00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:55,430 own context all over into the commentary, which is fair and 839 00:45:56,350 --> 00:45:58,350 Yep, amazing. Amazing. 840 00:45:58,550 --> 00:46:00,310 Okay, very good. So yeah. 841 00:46:00,310 --> 00:46:04,670 So again, it's commentary is called The Book of Lamentations. 842 00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:09,910 Sorry, no Flowery title put out in the it's a series called The 843 00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:14,590 New Cambridge Viable Commentary, and it's available online. 844 00:46:14,590 --> 00:46:18,310 In paperback, it's affordable. In hardcover it's not, but 845 00:46:18,310 --> 00:46:22,830 that's why it's in paperback. You can look it up, and if it's 846 00:46:22,830 --> 00:46:26,270 too late for this year's reading, then maybe next year, 847 00:46:26,270 --> 00:46:30,030 even though should have Google already for those that might 848 00:46:30,030 --> 00:46:31,670 still be interested in learning, hey how they can. 849 00:46:32,970 --> 00:46:35,090 Planning. Are you planning on writing for 850 00:46:35,090 --> 00:46:37,690 any other book of Tanaka for the Cambridge, Cambridge series? 851 00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:40,170 Not at the present moment. I have other points. 852 00:46:40,570 --> 00:46:42,770 I have other things I'm working on right now, but that's another 853 00:46:42,810 --> 00:46:45,330 That'll be fun of the pot, yes? I got all your books are 854 00:46:45,330 --> 00:46:48,610 extremely insightful and just keep writing. 855 00:46:48,610 --> 00:46:51,450 Keep doing what you're doing. We, you know, we you have, you 856 00:46:51,450 --> 00:46:52,930 have readers that really appreciate it. 857 00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:55,530 OK. Do this again with you. 858 00:46:55,810 --> 00:46:57,170 Yep. God willing, God willing. 859 00:46:57,170 --> 00:46:59,570 It's a sham, OK? And so the audience, you know, I 860 00:46:59,570 --> 00:47:03,060 know that stimulating and and controversial ideas are raised 861 00:47:03,060 --> 00:47:05,620 here. And I say I salute to all of you 862 00:47:05,620 --> 00:47:08,140 for for thinking a little bit out-of-the-box and wanted to get 863 00:47:08,380 --> 00:47:12,700 clear, clear and true answers. So yeah, I should talk to all of 864 00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:15,260 you. And we should be sorry that this 865 00:47:15,260 --> 00:47:16,660 should be the last, the last Tisha. 866 00:47:16,660 --> 00:47:18,260 Love that. That we sit in mourning. 867 00:47:18,980 --> 00:47:19,660 Amen. Amen. 868 00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:21,420 Thank you so much. Thank you all by Berman. 869 00:47:22,340 --> 00:47:23,580 Very good. Meaningful. 870 00:47:23,580 --> 00:47:25,820 Fast. OK. 871 00:47:25,820 --> 00:47:26,700 Thank. You. 872 00:47:30,990 --> 00:47:33,270 Hey guys, thanks so much for tuning into the Judas and 873 00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:36,230 Demystified podcast. We really appreciate all your 874 00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:40,110 support and your feedback. If you want to help us grow the 875 00:47:40,110 --> 00:47:43,070 podcast, keep spreading the word, Share it with your 876 00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:45,710 friends, family, or whoever you think would be interested. 877 00:47:46,510 --> 00:47:50,070 We also opened a Patreon so you can become a patron. 878 00:47:50,270 --> 00:47:53,110 Contribute any small amount you'd like, which would really 879 00:47:53,110 --> 00:47:56,550 help us grow the show our Patreon is. 880 00:47:57,140 --> 00:48:03,060 Www.patreon.com Judaism Pretty easy to remember. 881 00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:06,620 Thank you again and we hope to keep putting out great shows for 882 00:48:06,620 --> 00:48:07,220 you guys.