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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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We are joined by Rabbi Haim 
Eisen. 

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Rabbi Eisen is the founder and 
Dean of Yeshiva Charashim Zion 

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Bible Studies, a web-based 
educational venture to engage 

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users worldwide in the deepening
understanding of the Hebrew 

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Bible and other religious 
classics through live, recorded 

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and written content. 
An acclaimed speaker, he's been 

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stimulating audiences throughout
Israel, North America, and 

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Europe for over 40 years. 
For nearly all his career, he's 

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been involved in adult 
education, principally as senior

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Rabbinical lecturer of the 
Orthodox Union Jerusalem Center,

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where he taught for more than 36
years. 

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For over 20 years he also taught
Talmud and Midrash, Biblical 

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commentary, and especially 
Jewish thought and philosophy at

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various ishivolt in Israel. 
In addition, he served as a 

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Torah lecturer in the IDF Rabbin
at Torah Lecture Corps for over 

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16 years and continued to 
volunteer there after his 

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retirement. 
Besides teaching, he was also 

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founding editor of the OU 
journal Jewish Thought, a 

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journal of Torah scholarship, 
and has written and edited 

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numerous essays in this field. 
He's been teaching, editing, and

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publishing Judaica for more than
4 decades. 

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In particular, he feels 
passionately that to pave the 

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way for gods to quote Yoel and 
Malachi. 

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Great and awesome day. 
There's a burning urgency now to

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enunciate the Torah's message in
the global marketplace of ideas,

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where all too often it's so 
sincerely sought and so sorely 

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missing. 
Tragically, nowadays few who 

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value the Torah's message 
appreciate the global 

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marketplace of ideas, and vice 
versa. 

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Most of all, he's committed to 
harnessing a lifetime of Torah 

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study and teaching to address 
and redress this absence by the 

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Torah's light, this is his 
mission and the raison d'etre of

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Yeshivat Sharashim Zion Bible 
studies. 

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Without further ado, Rabekheim 
Eisen, thank you for joining the

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
We are joined by Arav Kheim 

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Eisen, the host of Jewish 
Philosophy Matters on YouTube. 

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Check out that Channel. 
It's unbelievable. 

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I've actually got I was turned 
on to this channel by Rabbi 

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Joshua Maroof, my rabbi, years 
ago. 

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When I asked him, I said I want 
who, who are some rabbis you 

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recommend to bring on? 
And he said, oh, Rahim Eisen, it

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was one of the first names that 
came up. 

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So thank you for joining us 
really. 

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Thank you. 
And I just want to get into it 

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because we recently David Highe 
and myself, we were listening to

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the Free Will series and we 
wanted to do a podcast about 

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this. 
So I'll just start off with the 

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first question. 
Science has broadly in the 

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modern era made famous 
particularly by Sam Harris and 

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Robert Sapolsky reached a 
consensus that we are determined

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to act the way we do. 
This has been shown in a few 

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real life scenarios and 
experiments, such as experiment 

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performed by Checking the 
association between the verdict 

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of hungry versus satiated 
judges, where the hungry judge 

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would more often incarcerate 
than a judge who just had lunch.

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Additionally, the case of 
Phineas Gage, who was seemingly 

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robbed of choice after surviving
a large iron rod driven through 

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his head. 
However, in part four of your 

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Free will series in JPM you 
state unequivocally that free 

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will is a miracle. 
This seems to agree with the 

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scientific consensus of 
determinism. 

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Given this observation, would 
you say that faith is required 

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for free will and that science 
would be unable to prove free 

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will materially? 
The paraphrase Sapolsky, the 

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burden of proof is on those who 
advocate free will, because they

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would have to prove that 
etceteris paribus, the person 

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observed would have been able to
act differently. 

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OK. 
Obviously there are a lot of 

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components in this question and 
I think the first Verity that I 

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should affirm here is by no 
means anyone claim that free 

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will is ubiquitous. 
Certainly we don't regard it as 

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something that characterizes any
non human animals, and the very 

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realization that this is 
something that we would claim as

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unique endowment of human beings
necessarily invites the question

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upon what basis do we claim that
human beings are, in some 

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fundamental ontological sense, 
different from any other living 

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things? 
Is that something that lends 

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itself to rigorous proof? 
Candidly, I think not, and it 

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could be very well that the 
invocation of miracle here may 

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be germane, except I think we 
need to find define our terms 

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more carefully here. 
That is, While again, we would 

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certainly agree that not only is
free will something unique to 

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human beings, but something that
isn't always to be found in 

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human beings either, in what 
vein would we be able to discern

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circumstances that from our 
perspective would dictate the 

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invocation of free will by way 
of explanation? 

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I'd like to begin by invoking a 
very time worn, even cliched 

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analogy to the guy who loses his
keys on the way home on a dark 

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night and returns to the lone 
pool of light beneath the only 

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St. lamp on the street to look 
for his keys there. 

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And of course the inevitably the
question is he wise or is he 

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stupid? 
And inevitably, the answer, my 

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favorite two word answer. 
It depends if he's returned to 

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that lone street light to look 
for his keys beneath it, because

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that's the only place the keys 
could possibly be, since it's 

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the only place that's 
illuminated. 

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Obviously he's stupid. 
On the other hand, if he returns

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there because I don't know, I 
lost my keys, I may have lost 

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them where the street is 
completely dark and then I won't

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find them. 
But maybe I dropped out of the 

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street the street lamp, then 
That could be a very wise 

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course. 
Of course, with the caveat that 

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number one, I don't know if I'm 
going to find my keys there. 

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Number two, I might find a set 
of keys and it might not have 

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been nine. 
Someone else might have dropped 

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his keys at the same time. 
The reason I'm invoking this 

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here is because what I think we 
would all agree is for him to 

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presume that because only 
beneath the street lamp is the 

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street illuminative, therefore 
the rest of the street doesn't 

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exist, is, to be extremely 
charitable, a leap of faith. 

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It is no more of a leap of faith
to presume that the rest of the 

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street doesn't exist than to 
presume that the keys have to be

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wherever I choose to look for 
them. 

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And of course the analogue to 
this analogy is, well, when we 

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speak of who has the burden of 
proof. 

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I would be more inclined to 
raise the question of 

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altogether. 
To what extent are matters of 

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substance in life susceptible to
rigorous proofs one way or the 

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other? 
And with respect to the 

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development of Western science, 
which has unequivocally provided

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us with innumerable assets in 
our being able to conduct the 

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affairs of life, a major 
question is the extent to which 

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science can be seen as 
establishing a definitive 

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ontology as opposed to what 
works. 

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This, of course, is a much, much
longer discussion than one that 

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pertains to free will. 
But what I'll state for our 

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purposes at present is that 
trying to extrapolate from the 

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success of a set of experiments 
to any definitive ontological 

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statement is unequivocally no 
less of a leap of faith than any

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other. 
We have to recognize the 

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limitations of our knowledge. 
We get into our a lot of trouble

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altogether because of our almost
inescapable pretensions of 

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omissions. 
Now I I don't state that as 

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something to be condemned 
because, you know, on some plane

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their inclinations try to 
extrapolate from some limited 

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set of data to an 
all-encompassing worldview is 

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the hallmark of the human 
outlook on the world. 

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We strive to interpret reality 
rather than merely assimilate 

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data as data gatherers. 
And far be it for me to indict 

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what is of course the the 
essence of the philosophical 

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quest with which I wholly 
identify. 

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But it's important for us to 
recognize that it is a quest. 

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It's not a certainty. 
Interpretation, by definition is

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not what I observe but what I 
impose upon my observations. 

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So proofs. 
We don't have any proofs of free

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will. 
There isn't any proof of the 

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absence of free will. 
Again, I'm going to reiterate, 

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can we prove that human beings 
are ontologically distinct from 

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the rest of the animal Kingdom? 
I think not. 

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Do I believe that human beings 
are distinct from the rest of 

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the animal Kingdom? 
I think yes, but not because I 

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can prove it. 
If you ask me, on what grounds 

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do I assert it all together? 
So you know, you mentioned in a 

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different context in our 
discussion, Descartes, Coquito, 

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it goes on. 
How do we relate that statement?

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Is it some kind of syllogism 
that proves existence? 

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I think, therefore I am. 
Descartes definitely didn't 

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intend it as a syllogism 
personally. 

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My inclination, although I admit
this may not square with 

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Descartes's own understanding, 
is it is a subjective 

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conviction. 
I have a subjective experience 

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of engaging in thought that 
convinces me that I, as a 

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thinker, exist. 
Sentience imposes upon me an 

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inescapable sense of selfhood. 
When I say imposes upon me, I'm 

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really speaking exclusively in 
subjective terms. 

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I've got it. 
If someone were to come to me 

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and say, well, I'm not convinced
by that argument, I don't know 

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if I exist. 
My response, of course, would be

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if you're not convinced you 
exist, why should I be convinced

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that you exist? 
You may just be a figment of my 

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imagination, but I have this 
subjective conviction. 

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And likewise, in the same vein, 
I have a subjective conviction 

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that I am distinct from the rest
of the animal Kingdom, that I am

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endowed with something that of 
course neuroscientists described

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as a hard problem. 
Consciousness. 

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I am endowed with it. 
What is it? 

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I couldn't tell you. 
I certainly don't subscribe to 

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attempts, however well meaning, 
of people like for example 

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Penrose, to try to understand 
consciousness as something that 

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would somehow derive from the 
quantum effects taking place in 

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microtubules and neurons. 
I don't think there's going to 

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be a physical explanation 
that'll be found. 

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So in this vein, while using the
word miracle may seem awfully 

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hackneyed, a platitude of 
cliches, I'm going to use it in 

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the more rigorous sense of 
something that I don't believe I

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will be able to rigorously 
demonstrate on any definitive 

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play. 
But it doesn't make me any less 

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convinced that it exists. 
Ultimately, if I ask myself upon

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what basis altogether do I posit
the existence of spirituality, I

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would have a hard time providing
any kind of rigorous answer, 

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even though it's definitely 
conviction. 

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And honestly, I think that's any
that's true of anyone who posits

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that spirituality is real. 
I've told generations of 

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Talmadim that if anyone, in 
response to the question Why do 

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you believe in God says anything
other than because I believe I 

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experienced him, that you know 
he's a fraud or he doesn't 

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understand the question. 
Experience is something that is 

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irreducible and irreducibly 
subjective, but that doesn't 

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mean it's in any way less real. 
I must concede on a personal 

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plane I feel more than to anyone
else beholden in my Veldenshan 

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to Rabihu, Dalevi, etcetera, 
Kuzeri. 

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I certainly feel very much 
beholden to the other luminaries

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among the Rishonim as well. 
But in in this regard, what 

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Rabihu Dalevi teaches me more 
than anything else is the 

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centrality of the subjective 
experience. 

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And that subjective experience, 
again, is the basis for my 

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conviction that consciousness is
real. 

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It is a basis for the unprovable
contention that life is 

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intrinsically meaningful. 
You know, I I always like to 

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gravitate to that question of 
meaning in life as a good way of

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characterizing the distinction 
between theism and atheism 

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without invoking the name of 
God. 

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I I prefer to avoid invoking the
name of God because, let's face 

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it, we don't really don't 
understand what we mean when we 

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talk about God anyway, do we? 
But we have some kind of 

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intuitive sense of what we mean 
when we speak of meaning in 

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life. 
Well, from the perspective of 

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the atheist, he can undoubtedly 
dedicate his life to any number 

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of lofty causes. 
But in as much as his very 

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existence is a consequence of 
pure chance, there obviously 

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cannot be any intrinsic meaning.
And again, of course, in much 

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the same vein as everything 
we've discussed until now, can 

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we prove that life is 
intrinsically meaningful? 

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I don't believe we can. 
Am I convinced that my life is 

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meaningful? 
Yes, I am. 

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Could that be a delusion? 
It could be a delusion. 

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00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,040
Everyone ultimately is going to 
have to decide for himself if he

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00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:33,160
regards that conviction, which I
believe is a veritable universal

230
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,800
one. 
That's my impression so far. 

231
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,680
If that conviction that life is 
meaningful is a consequence of 

232
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,000
delusion or a reflection of 
reality, that's not something 

233
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,200
that can be proven one way or 
the other. 

234
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,240
But does that place the burden 
of proof on one camp or the 

235
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,240
other? 
I don't see how it could 

236
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,560
possibly construe it to be that 
way. 

237
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,600
So I'm going to say the same 
thing here. 

238
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,120
That is to be more specific. 
Returning to the specific 

239
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,440
context of the question, we 
definitely recognize and, and 

240
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,200
this is of course not merely 
some kind of Judaic abstraction.

241
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,480
This is halakha. 
We recognize their circumstances

242
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,080
of each individual does not have
free will. 

243
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,520
I'm not merely talking about 
singular individuals. 

244
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:19,720
If you will like pag O according
to the Madras, as punishment for

245
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,800
what he had done beforehand, 
that he was denied free will 

246
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,040
either in all the plagues or in 
the last five plagues, And and 

247
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:34,320
speaking more universally about 
a phenomenon that is 

248
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,920
unequivocally recognized in 
halakha of a chote. 

249
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:47,360
Now, exactly where we will pin 
down the halakhic quantity chote

250
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,040
on a procedural plane is an 
excellent question. 

251
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,240
We're not going to discuss that 
right now. 

252
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,560
But someone who is deemed a 
shota in a state of derangement,

253
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,800
indeed is adjudged to not have 
free will. 

254
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:06,079
And it doesn't only mean that he
isn't held responsible for any 

255
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,560
crimes he may commit. 
You know in the lead up to 

256
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,920
Pesach, someone who is Itim 
Khalim. 

257
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:21,240
Itim Shota has belts of 
derangement of insanity and Lel 

258
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,800
Hassader. 
He is in a state of derangement 

259
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:31,040
and he eats matzo and before the
night is out he returns to a 

260
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,120
state of sanity. 
So what do we tell him? 

261
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,480
I mean assuming it's not going 
to cause any endangerment for 

262
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,320
him because obviously it's 
pikuak nephesh here, but go eat 

263
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,640
matzo again. 
He eat matzo already if he eat 

264
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,640
matzo and he wasn't obligated to
do meat slot. 

265
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:52,200
He ate matzo when he was acting 
under compulsion and not as one 

266
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,720
with free will. 
And as a result, not only is he 

267
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,480
not held accountable for crimes 
that he may have committed, he 

268
00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,240
also doesn't get any credit for 
me. 

269
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,600
It's not that he may have 
committed, so he comes to eat 

270
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,800
matzo now. 
In other words, we recognize 

271
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:11,280
that the circumstances of free 
will may indeed be for certain 

272
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:17,680
individuals, non existent, for 
others, occasional for all of 

273
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:23,240
us, perhaps also fleeting. 
But that doesn't in any way 

274
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:29,240
negate the Verity that a human 
being can be a responsible 

275
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,200
being. 
And that ultimately, I'm going 

276
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,520
to say, is the foundation of the
whole discussion of free will. 

277
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,280
It's significant to note, you 
know, when we just consider what

278
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:44,280
the ranking of free will is in 
the whole discussion of 

279
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,400
foundational beliefs. 
It is of course, very obviously 

280
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:55,120
glaringly lacking from Ramam's 
list of 13 foundational creeds, 

281
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,520
which is something I discussed 
this in the podcast, something 

282
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:06,040
that Raviosa, the Albo in 
Safari, Karim notes as an 

283
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,800
ostensible astonishment. 
Something as basic as free will 

284
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,680
isn't on Ramam's list, and 
ultimately his answer, which I 

285
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,800
think is very compelling, is the
reason it's not on the list is 

286
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,160
because it's too foundational. 
Because Rambam is giving you a 

287
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:29,200
list of foundational beliefs for
dot elokit for a divine system 

288
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,240
of belief and conduct and free 
will is foundation even for dot 

289
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,440
nimosit, even for a consensual 
system that isn't predicated 

290
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,800
upon any belief in revelation. 
So, so something that that is 

291
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:50,840
this fundamental in human 
affairs indeed is not provable. 

292
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,480
But that shouldn't really 
surprise us, because ultimately,

293
00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:01,720
how much of life is truly 
susceptible to proofs, you know?

294
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:09,840
In this regard, I always feel 
particularly drawn to a 

295
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,800
quotation. 
It's a quotation of Einstein. 

296
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:21,120
He made this statement in a 
lecture delivered before the 

297
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:25,640
Prussian Academy of Sciences in 
Berlin on the 27th of January 

298
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,760
1921. 
As far as the propositions of 

299
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:36,520
mathematics refer to reality, 
they are not certain, and as far

300
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,640
as they are certain, they do not
refer to reality. 

301
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,760
If I can share with you on an 
utterly pedestrian plane, what I

302
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:54,400
think Einstein is saying here, 
if I ask you, is 1 + 1 = 2 an 

303
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,560
absolutely true statement? 
I think we could agree, 

304
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:03,360
certainly in the conventional 
meanings of the words one plus 

305
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,080
equals and two, that that is 
definitionally true. 

306
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:14,880
OK, but now if I ask you, well, 
I gave you one apple and I'm 

307
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:20,400
giving you a second apple. 
Do you have absolutely two 

308
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,320
apples? 
Now is that absolutely true? 

309
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,960
I I think this is another 
opportunity to invoke my 

310
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,920
favorite two word answer. 
It depends. 

311
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,920
It depends on what you mean by 
apples. 

312
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,760
If by apples you just mean 
placeholders, then one apple and

313
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,040
another apple equals what's just
the same as 1X. 

314
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,560
Plus 1X uses 22X. 
You just cancel the XS and you 

315
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,240
have 1 + 1 = 2. 
But what if you really mean 

316
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,400
apples? 
If you really mean apples, then 

317
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,960
in the parlance of formal logic,
we'll say there are a whole host

318
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,280
of auxiliary hypothesis that 
need to be dragged into the 

319
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,800
discussion. 
Did I really give you an apple 

320
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,960
in the 1st place? 
What happened to the apple? 

321
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,840
Did someone eat it on the way? 
Did I give you a second apple? 

322
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,840
Or maybe it was just holding up 
a mirror to the first one? 

323
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,960
Did someone make applesauce? 
Were you dreaming this entire 

324
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,800
affair and it never actually 
happened in external reality? 

325
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:22,160
All those are germane. 
When we ask about what apple and

326
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,360
another apple. 
In other words, in the messy 

327
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:32,080
affairs of actual physical 
reality, we don't have proofs. 

328
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:43,920
It's only as far as the laws of 
mathematics are certain that 

329
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,880
they don't refer to reality. 
For the moment that we're 

330
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,240
actually referring to reality, 
they are not certain. 

331
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,520
So do we have proofs? 
No. 

332
00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:57,840
Does anyone else? 
I think not. 

333
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,800
Well said, You had a question on
this or? 

334
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,160
No, I was just. 
I was just enjoying and writing 

335
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,920
down some. 
So we'll go to the next 

336
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:16,600
question. 
So additionally to not proving 

337
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,960
free will, you say that it is 
not that we always have free 

338
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,600
will. 
In fact, much of the time we act

339
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,640
on determinism. 
Rather, you say we are given 

340
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,520
brief windows of time where we 
can act on free will. 

341
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,920
This seems intuitively true. 
In fact, you say that each of us

342
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,680
has a sort of moving frontline 
of free will, and the way we act

343
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,640
in those moments dictates our 
determined course of action in 

344
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,160
the future. 
Based on this, how can we 

345
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,400
ourselves know when we act on 
free will? 

346
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,720
Is it a Cartesian of free will 
where I think therefore I have 

347
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,760
free will? 
Or is it something else? 

348
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,480
Yeah, so. 1st, to give credit 
where credit is due. 

349
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,640
This essential thesis is one 
that, as far as I'm aware, was 

350
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,600
first articulated by Rabil Yao 
Dessler. 

351
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:10,080
It appears in Contras Habakira 
Alef in MKHDAFM Eliahu, and I 

352
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,760
personally heard it also from 
two of my mentors who were both 

353
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,280
students above Dessler. 
But I'll note with respect to 

354
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:27,040
the essential thesis, certainly 
as I'm integrating it into my 

355
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,640
understanding of free will, is 
it limits the discussion of free

356
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,720
will exclusively to those arenas
in which it is a question of 

357
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:41,920
moral choice. 
And to that extent do we have 

358
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,880
the wherewithal to know that we 
are choosing freely. 

359
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:55,600
If we are aware of our facing a 
dilemma of moral choice, then we

360
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,880
have the wherewithal to indeed 
be able to enunciate a clear 

361
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,560
understanding of two 
alternatives. 

362
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,880
We're essentially and. 
And here, if anything, I'm going

363
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:12,520
to be basing myself most 
directly upon Rambam in the 

364
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:18,120
second chapter of the guide in 
considering what the the nature 

365
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:23,000
of the sin of Adam and Chava 
was. 

366
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:30,880
The realization that the a 
priori basis of all choice lies 

367
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,520
in the distinction between truth
and falsity. 

368
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:42,680
Where on the one hand, when 
might well argue that truth 

369
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,280
versus falsity is no choice, 
Truth is real, falsity is not. 

370
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,040
You can't actually choose what 
doesn't exist. 

371
00:25:53,360 --> 00:26:05,720
But in our post free world being
endowed with, to employ Rambam's

372
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:11,360
terminology, imagination, which 
of course Rambam tells us in the

373
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:14,840
second unit of the guide in 
chapter 12, is identical with 

374
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,960
the Yeatser Hara. 
We have the wherewithal to be 

375
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,400
creative. 
That creativity is, on the one 

376
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,080
hand, what drives Adam and Khava
out of Ghana Eden, because Ghana

377
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,520
Eden is not a creative run close
parentheses on that. 

378
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:38,200
What's germane for our purposes 
is that in as much as that 

379
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,880
encumbrance, that the endowment 
that we receive as result of 

380
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:50,440
eating of the tree of knowing 
good and evil is imagination, 

381
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,960
creativity, we have the 
wherewithal to create an 

382
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,920
alternative reality. 
So while in the anti tree world 

383
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:04,480
it was truth versus falsity, in 
the post tree world it becomes 

384
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,440
good versus evil and good and 
evil are both realities. 

385
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,840
The symmetry, the asymmetry of 
truth versus falsity is 

386
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,520
sundered. 
Good and evil strike us as two 

387
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,920
alternative realities. 
There is a pseudo symmetry, and 

388
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,640
the challenge for us is on the 
one hand we have the wherewithal

389
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:37,800
to be able to see either of 
these as true if we so choose. 

390
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:44,480
But on the other hand, one of 
those supposed truths, deep down

391
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,840
we know is a lie because after 
all, something that we've 

392
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:58,600
concocted at a falsity. 
So where I am able to see 

393
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:05,640
clearly 2 alternatives that will
both be able to present 

394
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:12,920
themselves to me as truths, and 
simultaneously I have the 

395
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,840
wherewithal to be able to 
distinguish between them and say

396
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,960
this one is true, this one is a 
lie. 

397
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:26,600
That's precisely where I am 
choosing as a free agent endowed

398
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,000
with moral choice. 
And again, that's something that

399
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,160
only applies to a relatively 
limited number of experiences 

400
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,880
that any of us have over the 
course of our days, arguably 

401
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,280
even of course over the course 
of our lives. 

402
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:47,040
Because in so many domains of 
life, either I have no allure to

403
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,800
embrace falsity because it's 
patently clear to me that the 

404
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:56,080
alternative to what I perceive 
to be the truth is completely 

405
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,160
untenable. 
Or the truth is something that 

406
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:09,280
is so rarefied and lofty that I 
have no sense of being drawn to 

407
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:15,000
such a level of truth, and I'm 
living on my own routine in 

408
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,880
either of those instances. 
Though, I'm not choosing freely.

409
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,240
I'm choosing freely where I'm 
able to see both of those 

410
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,600
alternatives. 
And of course the critical word 

411
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,920
that needs to be invoked in 
Speaking of free moral choice is

412
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,000
responsibility. 
Because when I have moral 

413
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,760
choice, I have responsibility. 
Now those who will negate the 

414
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,840
existence of free will obviously
deny human responsibility 

415
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,240
altogether. 
That's self-evident. 

416
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,560
And indeed, I think that's part 
of the agenda. 

417
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,240
Can we prove that we as human 
beings are responsible? 

418
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,120
Again, I'm going to buzz it that
we cannot. 

419
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,520
But I will not only argue that 
we believe that human beings are

420
00:29:54,520 --> 00:30:01,040
responsible, but that we can 
even sense our being responsible

421
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,360
where we are when we are under 
the circumstances in which we 

422
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,360
are choosing. 
And to the extent that we make 

423
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,160
those choices as responsible 
human beings, from our 

424
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,160
perspective that's the greatest 
gift that God gave us, gives us 

425
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:22,160
to be responsible human beings. 
We are aware that that is indeed

426
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,200
what is taking place. 
We have chosen, and we bear 

427
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,360
responsibility, first and 
foremost to the effect that the 

428
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,000
choice will have on us, and 
second of all, of course, the 

429
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,240
effect it will have on the rest 
of the world. 

430
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,440
So that's actually a very 
fascinating point of view 

431
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,840
because I think that sort of 
implicit in the Jewish well 

432
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,680
Tanchung is that there is an 
idea of objective truths of some

433
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,360
sort because you know of belief 
in in Hashem. 

434
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,840
But it sounds like from the 
thesis you're putting forth that

435
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,760
actually objective truths in a 
post tree world is not, is not 

436
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,400
really accurate. 
It's more as though God imbues 

437
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,440
us with some sort of sense of 
what is true and what is false 

438
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,120
in our moral choices. 
But there's no you can't really 

439
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,280
say that there is objective 
truth in a post tree world. 

440
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,920
Well, what what I would prefer 
to say is we do believe 

441
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,200
subjectively that there exists 
an objective truth out there. 

442
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,680
Just we can't know that 
objective truth as long as we 

443
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,040
are bounded by our own 
subjectivity in here. 

444
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,840
Which is ultimately, of course, 
why lawyer Aniha Adan Bakai, why

445
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,040
mankind cannot see God while 
alive in this world. 

446
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:51,200
Because, you know, we enunciate 
as a foundation of our belief. 

447
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:58,440
What we read in Yamiyahu chapter
10, verse 10, Hashem Eloquim 

448
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:05,800
Emmet God is absolute truth. 
As Rambam notes in citing these 

449
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,640
words in the first chapter of 
the Laws of Fundamentals of 

450
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,960
Torah. 
That is, God is unconditional 

451
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,440
absolute truth. 
Everything else is conditional 

452
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,560
contingent truth. 
But we aren't able to connect 

453
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,160
with truth on that level, which 
is why as long as we are alive 

454
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,200
in this world, mankind cannot 
see. 

455
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,520
We all understand from Rambam 
third chapter of the Guide that 

456
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,120
seeing in this context means 
understanding. 

457
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,760
We cannot understand God. 
That's a Verity that 

458
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:43,120
circumscribes us in this world. 
But there's one critical caveat 

459
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,120
that we always need to bring 
into this discussion, and this 

460
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,720
is a principle that is 
enunciated by the Talmud 

461
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,080
Gomorrah in tractate Sotah, page
9. 

462
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,360
The context is one that we 
should at the very least note 

463
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,320
the expression in three pity 
words. 

464
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,840
Nicarine de Vere, Emet Words of 
truth are recognizable now. 

465
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,440
The context is downright 
unseemly. 

466
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:20,560
The the context is So how did 
Dilila know that Shimshon had 

467
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,080
indeed revealed the truth after 
he had deceived her so many 

468
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,840
times? 
And that's the answer. 

469
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,360
Where's the truth are 
recognizable. 

470
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:40,800
Dila is not exactly in the the 
the pantheon of people who live 

471
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:46,040
their lives in such ethereal 
consonants with truth, was she? 

472
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,000
But that's exactly the point. 
Even she could recognize truth 

473
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,800
if she wanted to, all the more 
so all the rest of us. 

474
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,960
In other words, the the 
principle of Nicarim de Veremet 

475
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:02,520
means, if I may express it in in
terms of a faith orientation, 

476
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,880
No, God did not dump us in on 
the deep end of the pool and say

477
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,120
sink or swim, because then we 
would have sunk. 

478
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,760
God endowed us with the 
wherewithal to be able to 

479
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,320
perceive truth if we so desired,
which of course simultaneously 

480
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,840
means that we won't if we don't 
so desire, because that's part 

481
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,520
of responsibility. 
But we have the wherewithal to 

482
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,239
resonate with troops. 
And I must note it is in this 

483
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:38,880
expansive view of the 
implications of Nikarim Devre 

484
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:44,800
emit that Rabiyu Dahlevi invokes
this line in the 4th Treatise of

485
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,679
Safar Kuzare in Section 17. 
And that's precisely the 

486
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,880
resonance that he's affirming, 
that we have the wherewithal to 

487
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,920
connect with truth when we sew 
on. 

488
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,680
Fantastic. 
So in an article published to 

489
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,000
the OU titled Is Yeshiva 
Education Accomplishing What It 

490
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,480
Should You Write? 
Even advanced students are often

491
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,080
appallingly ignorant of the 
axioms of Jewish belief and are 

492
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,520
at a total loss to grapple with 
the theological, philosophical, 

493
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,520
and spiritual challenges of 
contemporary society. 

494
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,480
What are the most important 
topics with which you believe it

495
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,880
is vital for yeshiva students to
be familiar with? 

496
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,120
If I remember Greg, I think I 
wrote that article 20 years ago 

497
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,880
or so. 
It's only gotten worse since 

498
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:40,280
then, for sure. 
Unfortunately, the way I would 

499
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:48,400
express what to me is the most 
crucial lacuna and on some 

500
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,440
plane. 
Everything we've discussed today

501
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:59,920
is a subset of this problem is 
the ability to engage in 

502
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:06,520
rigorous critical thinking, and 
I'm going to place my primary 

503
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,680
emphasis here upon the word 
rigorous. 

504
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,720
That is, if we cannot define our
terms in a compelling manner 

505
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,400
that enables us to understand 
just what it is that we're 

506
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,600
discussing, then for all intents
and purposes we're not 

507
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:27,160
discussing anything. 
And all too often matters that 

508
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,040
indeed pertain to the 
foundations of our belief 

509
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,200
system. 
The foundations of what 

510
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,520
believing into our means. 
When we talk about God, what are

511
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:43,360
we talking about? 
Are left to the kind of hand 

512
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:52,120
waving sloppiness that is an 
insult to the subjects at hand, 

513
00:36:53,480 --> 00:37:03,200
and of greater concern to me, a 
put off to those sincere, often 

514
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,640
gifted, but not necessarily but 
sincere students who are craving

515
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:15,200
such a rigorous level of 
understanding and the greatest 

516
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,680
tragedy. 
Those who crave rigorous 

517
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,360
thinking will find it. 
But if they're not going to find

518
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,880
it in the vape me trash in Torah
study, they'll find it someplace

519
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:38,480
else, whether they will remain 
formally affiliated with Jewish 

520
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,680
beliefs and practices or not, 
their minds, their hearts, or 

521
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,240
someplace else. 
And those are precisely the 

522
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,040
students who should be the 
spiritual leaders of the next 

523
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:58,280
generation. 
And this discussion is one that,

524
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:07,840
put it in very clear terms, is 
veritably impossible to conduct 

525
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,000
without the invocation of the 
classics of Jewish thought. 

526
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,800
In particular, of course, that's
Rishonnais Farrad, medieval 

527
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:21,160
Spain, where for a number of 
historical reasons, that was 

528
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:27,240
very much the the parlance of 
the time of the society. 

529
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,320
It had a lot to do with the 
accessibility of Arabic 

530
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,560
translations of the classics of 
Greek philosophy that have been 

531
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,120
translated between the 8th and 
10th centuries and posed a 

532
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:44,320
challenge to theistic systems 
that existed in the Arabic 

533
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,960
speaking world that is both 
Judaism and Islam. 

534
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,680
And there was a need to 
enunciate a coherent, cogent 

535
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,440
response. 
But in that case the reality is 

536
00:38:54,440 --> 00:39:04,100
that there isn't any period with
which we bear that one, because 

537
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:07,060
it was a poor society in which 
the intellectual foment that was

538
00:39:07,060 --> 00:39:11,220
taking place outside was taking 
place inside, and the challenge 

539
00:39:11,220 --> 00:39:16,060
was principally coming from a 
system that reported to explain 

540
00:39:16,100 --> 00:39:20,500
everything through rationalism. 
Of course, then it was near 

541
00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:24,480
Arithelianism. 
Today it's science, but still a 

542
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,400
system that purports to do away 
with any need for revelation, 

543
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:37,160
any need for a theistic system. 
And and the Rishonim, these 

544
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:45,200
luminaries of medieval Spain 
established for us a set, a 

545
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:52,080
corpus that we ignore at our 
peril, and unfortunately ignore 

546
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:57,600
what we do. 
So what would you say would be 

547
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,480
like a way of kind of fixing the
system, right? 

548
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:03,560
The Yeshiva system? 
What? 

549
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,320
What is it? 
What would you change about the 

550
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:07,680
current setup? 
Let's just say. 

551
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:14,800
Well, you know, I believe it was
roughly 1/4 century ago that 

552
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:21,320
Professor Alan Bloom published 
his famous transformative The 

553
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:28,760
Closing of the American Mind. 
And in summation, his essential 

554
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:35,960
thesis was it is ignorance of 
the classics that provide the 

555
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:41,360
Christ for an intellectual 
discourse that results in that 

556
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:49,760
closing of the American mind. 
I feel pained to declare that we

557
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,840
should write a sequel, The 
Closing of the Jewish Mind. 

558
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:58,680
And it's the same reason, 
because of ignorance of the 

559
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,360
classics upon which any 
meaningful intellectual 

560
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,600
discourse pertaining to Judaism 
need to be predicated. 

561
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,440
That is, study of these classics
of the reshoning obviously is a 

562
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,760
challenge here, and I'm not in 
any way minimizing the 

563
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:15,760
challenge. 
The challenge is one of 

564
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,080
translation, and I don't mean 
linguistic translation, I mean 

565
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,320
translating concepts. 
Obviously the response to the 

566
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:31,200
challenges of Neo Sicilianism is
not going to cut it as the exact

567
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:36,280
same response transposed onto 
the challenges that we face 

568
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,560
today. 
But that enterprise of 

569
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,920
translation is eminently doable.
I can testify to that 

570
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,280
personally, because I've spent 
my life doing it, and it's only 

571
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,120
by so doing that we have the 
wherewithal to engage in a 

572
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,520
meaningful intellectual 
discourse. 

573
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,800
And we're not. 
Now, I I need to impose one 

574
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,720
additional caveat here, just So 
what I'm stating here won't be 

575
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:05,200
misunderstood. 
I I certainly had the experience

576
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:15,080
of eminent rabaim in yeshiva 
rebutting what I just said. 

577
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:17,440
I don't give them intellectual 
rigor. 

578
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:19,840
I told them about Mahoga exos 
and see those. 

579
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:24,280
That's not intellectual rigor. 
And far be it from me, Kasma 

580
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,240
Khalila, to minimize the 
intellectual rigor that is 

581
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:30,640
necessary in order to understand
a dissension between the exos 

582
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,040
Akhoshan and the Mishbat. 
But that's not what we're 

583
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,560
talking about here. 
We're talking about something 

584
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:45,240
that impinges upon the essence 
of why I am what I am, my world 

585
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,160
view, and that's not being 
addressed. 

586
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,240
Would that there could be a 
meaningful intellectual 

587
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:59,080
discourse with the same tenor of
rigor as pertains to the 

588
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:08,040
Makhlokovsson Zeos, But there 
isn't, because the mentors what 

589
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,760
who have been guiding that 
discourse, are as ignorant, are 

590
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,440
as ignorant of their students as
their students are, if not more 

591
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:19,120
so. 
Would you would you consider it 

592
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:24,920
to be like a, the cause of this 
being fear maybe that you know, 

593
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,800
kind of the there's this idea, I
don't agree with it necessarily 

594
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,780
but there's this idea that 
getting too into the quote UN 

595
00:43:32,780 --> 00:43:36,560
quote rationalism of the 
Rishonim will lead people. 

596
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,880
Like especially starting with 
the Rambam will lead people to 

597
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:46,000
enlightenment sort of, you know,
secularism and so and so forth. 

598
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,160
Whereas the response has been 
the last few, 100 years since is

599
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,960
Kabbalah is the response. 
And then you have with like the 

600
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,520
Reform and Conservative and and 
versus the Orthodox you have 

601
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,760
this, this the Orthodox moving 
away from let's say Tanakh 

602
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,000
study, our learning our history 
and going towards just Talmudic 

603
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,440
study. 
So do you find that these are 

604
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,480
based in kind of a willful 
ignorance? 

605
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:20,080
I'm not going to come to offer 
explanations for the sort of 

606
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,760
ignorance I I I identify the 
phenomenon of ignorance. 

607
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:31,920
What I will also note is, is it 
possible to misread Rambam on a 

608
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:39,920
level that will fan the flames 
of such a facile understanding? 

609
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,040
Of course it is. 
And that's precisely the 

610
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:48,000
problem. 
Because where can you find 

611
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,520
ostensibly the serious study of 
Ramam today? 

612
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,440
It's in the Academy. 
It's not in the Shiva. 

613
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,080
This is a phenomenon that isn't 
new. 

614
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:08,240
Rufkuk derided it 100 years ago.
But that's precisely the 

615
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:14,920
challenge, to recognize that the
Rishonim, the giants of Jewish 

616
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,720
philosophy, weren't interested 
in abstract philosophy. 

617
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,360
They were interested in 
avodatashem, how we come to 

618
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:29,520
serve God, and the philosophy 
was the means through which to 

619
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,040
be able to come to that 
avodatashem. 

620
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:39,520
It is perhaps the greatest 
tragedy, and simultaneously the 

621
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:47,160
most pernicious negation of what
they represented that for the 

622
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:52,760
most part nowadays the study of 
those classics takes place in a 

623
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,440
sterile academic environment in 
which Abedad Hashem isn't at all

624
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,880
on the table. 
Unfortunately, academic is an 

625
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:06,600
adjective with two meanings, and
those two meanings in practice 

626
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,000
are inseparable, pertaining to 
the Academy and being completely

627
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,440
divorced from the realities of 
life. 

628
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:19,640
And it is a problem that can 
only be redressed through 

629
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,840
placing the study of these 
classics in the context of 

630
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:33,320
Avatar Tashem in precisely that 
environment that should be 

631
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,720
completely oriented, the 
cultivation of Avatar Tashem. 

632
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:43,000
Now, with respect to Kabbalah, I
I really don't regard myself as 

633
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,200
an appropriate address. 
That's something that is 

634
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,200
undoubtedly better discussed 
with others than with me. 

635
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:57,200
I will distinguish between the 
Kabbalah of the Richo name and 

636
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,800
the Kabbalah of the Akaro name. 
I think that that bifurcation is

637
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,600
an inescapable 1 But 
simultaneously, what I will 

638
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:14,800
stress is that, as far as I can 
tell from the extent to which I 

639
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:19,040
have engaged in that study, 
Kabbalah is not intended to be a

640
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,760
substitute for theology. 
It's a form of avodah. 

641
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:31,040
If you take the premises of 
Kabbalah and understand them as 

642
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:38,920
theological principles, that is 
liable to lead to heresy because

643
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,920
it's simply appropriating 
something in the wrong context 

644
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,840
and misunderstanding what it's 
coming to teach. 

645
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,080
So that arena that is oriented 
with respect to Abu Datashem? 

646
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:53,960
OK, fine. 
So there can be different 

647
00:47:53,960 --> 00:48:00,000
courses that can legitimately be
in the same field of inquiry. 

648
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:05,320
On the subject of Adatashem and 
a sheer that I gave on Shabbat 

649
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,880
yesterday, I had occasion in 
response to one of the questions

650
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:15,840
that was raised by someone in 
the audience to invoke a a slim 

651
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:20,360
volume that is not just packed 
with meaning. 

652
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:25,320
But the very agenda of this slim
volume, which much to my chagrin

653
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:33,760
I think is almost unknown, is 1 
from which we can all learn so 

654
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:38,200
very much. 
Sefar Hazikaron of the Ritva, 

655
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,560
the Ritva, one of the foremost 
disciples of the Rashba who was 

656
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,480
one of the foremost disciples of
Ram Ban, is coming squarely from

657
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:54,320
the baby drash of Ram Ban and 
thus very much from the context 

658
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,240
of Kabbalah Rishonim. 
Because after all, Ram Ban is 

659
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,760
one of the most important 
expositors of Kabbalah among the

660
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,720
Rishonim among the medieval 
sages of Spain. 

661
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:13,120
And the Ritva wrote this volume 
with one single agenda, And that

662
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:18,840
is to defend Rambam in God of 
the Perplexed. 

663
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,960
From the attacks of Rambam in 
his Carpenter in the Torah. 

664
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:27,800
And the Ritva himself writes 
that you could say that I am, 

665
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,840
I'm. 
I'm replacing the Hebrew idiom 

666
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,920
with English idiom, sticking my 
neck out over something that I 

667
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,760
don't even agree with because 
I'm coming from the Kabbalah of 

668
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,400
Ramban. 
But it's important for us to 

669
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,040
appreciate, says the Ritva, that
Rambam has a cogent alternative 

670
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,160
view of that of Kabalim, and we 
have to respect them both. 

671
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:52,720
And parenthetically, the Ritva 
regards Rambam's not basing 

672
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:57,600
himself upon Kabalah as 
resulting from either he's not 

673
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,840
having heard Kabbalah or is 
having heard it and rejected it,

674
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,440
and he regards both of those 
possibilities as cogent and 

675
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,480
acceptable. 
You don't have to be in cabal, 

676
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,240
you can be a philosopher. 
That's legitimate as long as you

677
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:13,360
subordinate is subordinated to 
Abu Dhabi. 

678
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:22,400
And and ultimately, while I am 
not in any way coming to oppose 

679
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,840
the study of Kabbalah, certainly
Kabbalah is your name. 

680
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:36,240
Unfortunately nowadays it seems 
to me that Ramban is is well 

681
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:41,040
enough incensed in that zone of 
ignorance of contemporary 

682
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,720
students that his Kabbalah as 
well, but unknown as well. 

683
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,080
But if we're engaging in Abu 
Dhabi shaman country, we need to

684
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:51,680
appreciate it. 
There are different strokes for 

685
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,200
different folks and for the 
rigorous thinkers. 

686
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,280
I don't believe Kabbalah will be
able to provide the answers in 

687
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,400
particular because again, it is 
not providing you with 

688
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,080
theological system, the 
understanding of Emunot vadeyot 

689
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:13,560
that the luminaries of medieval 
Spain provided in their works. 

690
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,080
You know, from my own personal 
experience and I'm sure you feel

691
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,400
the same way when I was you go 
from like you know 4th grade to 

692
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,200
5th grade, you know you bear 
your understanding of God and 

693
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,880
and and is is based on Tanakh 
and on a very childish level 

694
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,400
obviously. 
And then all of a sudden you're 

695
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:35,720
you're studying Mishnah and 
Gemara and there is really no 

696
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:37,520
discussion. 
It's not I wouldn't consider it 

697
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:43,400
a quote UN quote spiritual book 
or books and the you know, the 

698
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,880
feeling you get is almost like 
what are we doing? 

699
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,480
What are who are we serving, why
are we serving him? 

700
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,120
It's that that whole process of 
education, it feels like it's 

701
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,480
just missing. 
So what you're saying really 

702
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,000
resonates a lot. 
And I will say, you know, part 

703
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,960
of the reason why I started this
podcast is, you know, as a Proud

704
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:06,320
to fire D we, we wanted to get 
people interested in learning 

705
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,360
Rambam and the Rishonim. 
And actually we just started a 

706
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,040
series recently called Getting 
to Know the Rishonim. 

707
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,760
We just did one episode on the 
Ralbag with Rabbi Matt 

708
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:16,400
Schneeweiss and Rabi David 
Campbell. 

709
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,800
So for those who haven't heard 
that, please check it out. 

710
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,560
And I really, really appreciate 
what what you had to say right 

711
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,560
now 'cause there's really just 
on point. 

712
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,560
So thank you for that. 
And I can just know, with 

713
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:32,440
respect to that transference 
from 4th grade to 5th grade to 

714
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:37,240
express it, if I may, in 
contemporary terms of 

715
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:40,640
developmental psychology, Jean 
Piaget would have described that

716
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,720
in terms of the transference 
from the concrete operation 

717
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:45,160
stage to the formal operation 
stage. 

718
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,840
In other words, cultivating the 
ability to abstract, which of 

719
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:54,400
course finds its expression 
explicitly in the Mishnah, the 

720
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,920
end of the fifth chapter of Avot
bin Hamesh la Mikya Ben Esse la 

721
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,600
Mishnah. 
That is, in order to be able to 

722
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:06,360
deal with the abstract concepts 
of Mishnah, you need a level of 

723
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,680
maturation, 10 years, roughly 
the beginning of the the formal 

724
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:16,240
operation stage that goes beyond
the concrete thinking of the 

725
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:19,200
five year old, which is adequate
for understanding the graph. 

726
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:22,560
And from my perspective, that's 
precisely the issue. 

727
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:28,880
In other words, the moment that 
one reaches that capacity to 

728
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:34,560
abstract, the questions become a
completely different order of 

729
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:40,080
magnitude. 
And inevitably, the need for 

730
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,960
compelling answers becomes that 
much greater. 

731
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:54,680
Unfortunately, it pains me to 
say how many of our brethren go 

732
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,040
through life with a nursery 
school theology. 

733
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,680
That's a tragedy, and it's not 
going to cut it. 

734
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,040
That is, if I may invoke 
Gruffkok again in this regard, 

735
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:12,320
Rav Cooke regarded the hallmark 
of the contemporary era as one 

736
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:18,320
in which facile platitudes of 
faith are inadequate even for 

737
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,320
Bingo NI even for people at a 
mediocre level of aptitude. 

738
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:28,320
And he regarded that as a 
blessing because it forces us to

739
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,760
enunciate our beliefs on a more 
compelling plane. 

740
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:38,040
And if I may just add here a 
personal comment from and and 

741
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:41,920
another arena of my own life, I 
can personally testify the 

742
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:47,680
extent to which the global 
marketplace of ideas there is 

743
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:55,600
such a profound hunger and 
thirst for what Toro Judaism has

744
00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:02,280
to say. 
Not only among Jews, and all too

745
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:09,200
often that summons those 
unanswered because we are 

746
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,760
denunciating what the Torah has 
to say, what a tragedy. 

747
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:21,000
And we we just a week ago read 
Parashat Vaikka and there is a 

748
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:25,360
Midrash at the end of Parashat 
Vaikkaraba. 

749
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,480
Without going into all the 
nuances of the Midrash, I'll 

750
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:33,800
just cut to the quick The bottom
line of this passage in the 

751
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:42,520
Midrash is if you don't make 
known my divinity to the nations

752
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,520
of the world, I will exact 
retribution from you. 

753
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:54,800
If we're not doing our job, and 
I suspect in the saddest of 

754
00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:01,360
terms we are not, then that's a 
summons and an indictment. 

755
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,640
And I actually think you brought
up Rough Cook. 

756
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,720
There's a I'm paraphrasing, but 
I believe he says atheism 

757
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:13,480
cleanses the the, the dross of 
petty religion where I feel like

758
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:19,880
in a way the modern age today is
forcing us to re examine how we,

759
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,480
you know, approach Judaism. 
Because it it has become very, 

760
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,560
you know, superficial in many 
ways. 

761
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,560
And you know, people just have 
this kind of simple faith 

762
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,000
attitude and we're not gonna dig
any deeper. 

763
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,440
So I feel like these these 
challenges in a way, are are 

764
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,920
God's way of telling us, you 
know, we need to start 

765
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,720
reassessing things. 
You know, inevitably what comes 

766
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:48,360
to mind in this regard is, and I
think it's definitely pertains 

767
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,760
very directly to the subject of 
this discussion. 

768
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:58,440
And when one considers the world
of the shtetl that has been so 

769
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:02,760
idealized in the various 
fictional historical accounts 

770
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,560
that purport to tell us what the
shtetl was like. 

771
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:12,920
And it it should, after all, be 
self-evident to us that if the 

772
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:17,640
shtetl was indeed the sort of 
idyllic world that it is 

773
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:22,960
purported to have been, then 
people's faith would not have 

774
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:27,160
collapsed like a House of Cards 
the moment they left the shtetl.

775
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:36,280
And what seems to me perhaps the
most apartment analogy to life 

776
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,960
in the shtetl, if I may invoke 
an analogy from very far afield,

777
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:48,240
is the tragedy of burning down 
the rainforests. 

778
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:57,120
That is, when sections of the 
rainforest and the Amazon are 

779
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,840
destroyed. 
The real tragedy isn't the 

780
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,520
destruction itself, it's that 
the rainforest cannot 

781
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,840
regenerate. 
It can't regenerate because 

782
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,880
since there's almost constant 
rain, the nutrients are 

783
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,840
constantly being flushed out of 
the soil and as a result, the 

784
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,000
environment that's actually very
nutrient poor. 

785
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:23,840
What preserves the rainforest is
a whole web of interconnected 

786
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:29,480
interdependencies that keeps 
everything going as long as 

787
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,840
there's no disturbance to. 
The moment there's disturbance, 

788
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,320
everything collapses, and and 
again everything collapses to an

789
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,360
extent that it's almost 
impossible to regenerate. 

790
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:46,480
Likewise, the shtetl. 
The shtetl lasted for centuries.

791
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,400
There could have been instances 
in which it was on the brink of 

792
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:57,520
collapse, even in its 
undisturbed state, but it still 

793
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,840
kept on going. 
It kept on going, if I may 

794
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,720
invoke a very popular refrain 
from field around the roof 

795
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:09,200
because of tradition. 
But you know, tradition can only

796
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:15,400
take you so far, especially when
the level of scholarship is to 

797
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,680
invoke another line from Fiddler
on the Roof at three. 

798
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:19,760
I started Hebrew school at 10. 
I learned to trade. 

799
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,960
Yiddish Guide is exactly as much
as a child is able to absorb 

800
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:25,720
from age 3 to age 10. 
Period. 

801
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,560
So tradition works as long as 
tradition works, but if there 

802
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:37,280
isn't going to be a deep, 
satisfactory scholastic 

803
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,040
understanding, it's not going to
last. 

804
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:42,360
And that's exactly where we are 
today. 

805
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:48,520
There are still strata in our 
community that I think are 

806
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:55,440
hoping for tradition to keep 
things going, and it is as such 

807
00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,680
that when all is set and done, 
the paradigm of the yeshiva has 

808
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,120
really not changed very much in 
the last 200 years. 

809
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:10,160
But we're hemorrhaging. 
It's the the deep, dark secret 

810
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,240
that everyone knows but no one 
likes to talk about. 

811
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,600
We're hemorrhaging because we 
have a problem that we're not 

812
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:21,280
addressing. 
I pray that we should finally 

813
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,360
realise that we need to address 
it. 

814
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,240
That's also part of human 
responsibility. 

815
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:29,920
Agarach was giving us a job to 
do. 

816
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,400
Beautifully said. 
Very nice. 

817
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:35,680
Can I just add a few? 
Yeah, sure. 

818
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:40,080
Just like sort of to add on to 
the points that were made and I 

819
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:44,400
I very much feel with Benji that
and like you said like you know 

820
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,560
we sort of stuck with this very 
primitive theology like very 

821
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:55,440
immature theology in some sense.
I I remember like once this 

822
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,720
really stuck with me. 
I was learning philosophy in in 

823
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,800
like the in like the shul with 
the with the sort of Carusa and 

824
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,920
sort of connecting it to the 
parsha and there was a rough 

825
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,640
there who said like you know 
it's us or to learn philosophy 

826
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,960
unless you've learned Tanakh. 
And I sort of found that so 

827
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,920
oxymoronic because like this is 
a Rob who doesn't teach Tanakh 

828
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,840
like in high school like you 
know it's just Talmud. 

829
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,280
So like the problem is really 
there is sort of in in the 

830
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,240
culture I grew up in there was 
sort of a a disdain for a 

831
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,920
philosophy in general. 
And if the mentality is that you

832
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,840
need Tanakh to learn philosophy,
but sort of blocking out Tanakh 

833
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,880
in order to block out philosophy
too is a very, it was very 

834
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:41,560
something that stuck with me, 
that's that's for sure. 

835
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:48,880
Yeah, unfortunately it it it 
provides A medically sealed box 

836
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:54,320
from which there's no escape. 
I I can recall a number of years

837
01:01:54,320 --> 01:02:03,160
ago I was being interviewed on a
a live radio program and I 

838
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:08,720
invoked the Rishonim. 
And one of the callers called in

839
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,760
and said you're not allowed to 
read the Rishonim except for the

840
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:17,600
prism of the the current Torah 
luminaries. 

841
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,200
And it struck me as a way of 
guaranteeing that there will 

842
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:27,000
never be any escape from this 
mindlessness. 

843
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:34,520
But I I pray that there needs to
be a shift and the shift will 

844
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:38,720
come. 
I just can't committedly pray 

845
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:45,720
that it should happen in a 
manner that doesn't simply lead 

846
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:54,120
to a horrific falling away on a 
level that, unfortunately, the 

847
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:58,520
current paradigm of the sheep 
education is liable to engender.

848
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,080
Totally. 
That was very well put. 

849
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,680
And and like, like you said, 
there's a thirst for the sort of

850
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,840
Judaism, the sort of Jewish 
answers in the modern era that 

851
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,880
we have in order to share but 
sort of is not being spread 

852
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,280
enough. 
I think with the like with the 

853
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,000
New Atheist movement, I was very
drawn to all these debates with 

854
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,560
the New Atheists and their 
opponents. 

855
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:29,880
But it sort of struck me that 
the New Atheists, as much as 

856
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:33,520
they sort of tried to dig into 
the Judaism I believe like or 

857
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,480
the religion that I believed in,
it never stuck with me because 

858
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,680
the Jewish answer to these 
problems is vastly different 

859
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,560
than the than other religions 
answers in some sense. 

860
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:48,240
And it's like there is a very 
powerful, like Jewish 

861
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:52,240
theological background which is 
so important to spread nowadays.

862
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,120
And it's like just to add on to 
what you said there, what I. 

863
01:03:55,880 --> 01:04:02,000
What I can just add further to 
what you just noted is it's of 

864
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,160
course very difficult to 
characterize what that 

865
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,920
difference is, but if I I need 
to invoke one word to 

866
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,520
characterize it, it is a 
realism. 

867
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,280
Judaism was never 
transcendentalist. 

868
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,080
It was always focused on living 
in this world. 

869
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,960
For Rabih Udalibi, any 
spirituality that is 

870
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,720
otherworldly spirituality is 
always suspect of being 

871
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:27,080
counterfeit spirituality. 
For both Rabih Udalibi and 

872
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:31,240
Rambam, it is axiomatic that the
Torah will never demand of you 

873
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:36,000
to believe in something that 
contravenes your sense of logic.

874
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:43,720
Because doing so, whether it is 
impossible for logic to be 

875
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:47,280
contravened, contravened, or 
not, doing so will necessarily 

876
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:53,880
be unreal to you. 
And the Torah doesn't want you 

877
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:59,160
to believe in something that 
will be perpetually at 

878
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:00,920
loggerheads with your sense of 
what's real. 

879
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:08,160
So that realism in itself 
engenders that experiential 

880
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:12,640
conviction. 
I know because I experience, and

881
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:17,280
experience is real to me. 
And there's something that is 

882
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:22,360
very healthy. 
I mean cathartic in being able 

883
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:26,360
to have that sense of a healthy 
experience. 

884
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,400
But you need to engender that. 
You need to sensitize a person 

885
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:34,280
to it, and above all else, you 
need to prepare the vessels in 

886
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:38,040
order to be able to connect with
it, and we aren't doing that. 

887
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,360
If anything, I suspect that 
nowadays there's much more of a 

888
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:48,560
tendency toward a sort of 
transcendentalism that 

889
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,800
eviscerates this very power of 
Torah. 

890
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:57,640
Wow, beautifully said. 
It's very beautiful. 

891
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,000
So do you have time for one more
question? 

892
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:05,200
Please by all means. 
OK, so considering Maimonides 

893
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,320
emphasis on God's absolute unity
and transcendence, how might the

894
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,080
interconnectedness and 
interdeterminacy found in 

895
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,000
quantum mechanics such as the 
observer effect reflect or 

896
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,000
challenge traditional Jewish 
understanding of divine 

897
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,160
Providence and God's interaction
with the world? 

898
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,720
In the context of Maimonides 
philosophical framework where 

899
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:28,040
the laws of nature are seen as 
expressions of God's will, how 

900
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,320
might we understand the 
interdeterminacy and non 

901
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,960
locality of quantum mechanics? 
Is it possible that these 

902
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,360
quantum phenomena reveal a more 
intimate involvement of the 

903
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,320
divine and the fabric of reality
beyond the fixed laws 

904
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:42,720
traditionally attributed to 
God's creation? 

905
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,320
I I have to admit that I'm going
to take a rather circumspect 

906
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:54,400
approach to this, in that while 
I myself by training I'm a 

907
01:06:54,400 --> 01:07:01,760
scientist and I feel a a very 
robust resonance with study of 

908
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,240
science, it it still is 
important for us to bear in mind

909
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:09,720
apropos what we noted earlier, 
the limitations of what science 

910
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:15,640
can or cannot state. 
I I feel compelled to admit that

911
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:24,000
I rather circumspect all this 
all together with the attempt to

912
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:28,600
wed theological assertions to 
any particular scientific 

913
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,080
system. 
That is, I I do want to get back

914
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:36,840
to quantum mechanics. 
But before I do, I feel very 

915
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:44,520
much beholden to, first of all, 
David Hume in An Inquiry 

916
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:49,240
Concerning Human Understanding, 
the Skeptical, Skeptical Doubts 

917
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:54,480
Concerning the Operations of 
Understanding both Part one and 

918
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:59,720
Part 2, and his skeptical 
solution of these doubts that 

919
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,800
immediately follow thereafter 
Part One and Part 2 in 

920
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:09,600
appreciating the extent to which
altogether that which we 

921
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:16,800
experience on some plane is the 
experience itself, and the 

922
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:25,000
attempt to impose upon it some 
causal understanding, is always 

923
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:29,800
going to be presumptive but 
never definitive. 

924
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:34,439
Essentially, the problem of 
induction that we already noted 

925
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:39,680
at the outset with respect to a 
limited corpus of data and and 

926
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:44,439
even more so than Hume Thomas 
Cohn's The Structure of 

927
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:51,359
Scientific Revolutions, which I 
realize is a work that has been 

928
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:56,720
appropriated far beyond what 
Kuhn had in mind. 

929
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,560
He wasn't saying that science is
merely some kind of free for all

930
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,200
that doesn't get anywhere, but 
simultaneously the realization 

931
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:10,040
that science progresses through 
a series of paradigms and none 

932
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:15,200
can be taken to be definitive or
final as long as there's any 

933
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:18,720
empirical data at all. 
That doesn't jive with the 

934
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,560
currently accepted all accepted 
paradigm. 

935
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,520
And that's pretty much always 
the case in any science that 

936
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,040
continues to be a subject of 
research. 

937
01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:35,240
So for me to invoke science in 
the sense of a particular system

938
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:40,080
in understanding the theology of
Rambam is something that I will 

939
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:44,520
eschew, and ultimately I'm going
to argue that Rambam would 

940
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:48,000
eschew it as well. 
That is when we consider what 

941
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:51,680
Rambam is doing in the Laws of 
Fundamentals of Torah chapters 3

942
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:55,960
and four, where Ramam is 
explicitly invoking Aristotelian

943
01:09:55,960 --> 01:10:03,760
physics and doing so in order to
provide the the tangible 

944
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:08,040
expression of the imperative 
that he enunciates in chapter 2,

945
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,760
Halakhatu, How do you get the 
love of God and reverence of 

946
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:15,560
God? 
By contemplating nature, I 

947
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:20,640
humbly submit that not only 
would I not think to fulfill 

948
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:25,480
that imperative by studying our 
civilian physics, but that if 

949
01:10:25,480 --> 01:10:27,960
Rahman were alive today, he 
would completely agree that we 

950
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:29,840
shouldn't be studying our 
civilian physics. 

951
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,160
I often wonder what Rahman would
have to say about people who 

952
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:41,640
obsess on his medical statements
after medicine has had the 

953
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:45,400
opportunity to develop another 
800 years since he made those 

954
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,480
statements. 
We actually just did recently 

955
01:10:48,480 --> 01:10:51,560
did a podcast with Doctor Len 
Goodman on this exact topic. 

956
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,040
Like, what would Rambam say 
today? 

957
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:55,400
I could send you that separate. 
I think it's you. 

958
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:56,640
You'd really enjoy it. 
But and. 

959
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,320
There are certain things that 
Rambam stated that are that were

960
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:04,720
really prescient and have 
relevance conceivably 4 

961
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:06,560
generations to come. 
But there's an awful lot that's 

962
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:10,560
based upon gielenic medicine and
the presumptions of Aristotle 

963
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:16,280
that are completely obsolete. 
And Rambam didn't study the 

964
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:19,680
science of some other time. 
He studied the science of his 

965
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:21,880
time. 
Granted, the science of his time

966
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:29,240
was on many levels merely a 
carryover of the science that 

967
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:33,640
had developed over a Millennium 
earlier, but but that wasn't 

968
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:38,200
because Rambam was bent upon 
some kind of reactionary 

969
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:39,800
science. 
I suppose that was the way 

970
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,040
science developed in those days.
We've graduated beyond that. 

971
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:48,560
So in fine, you know, with 
respect to the imperative of 

972
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:51,760
studying science, to me more 
than anything else, the 

973
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,520
imperative that we learned from 
Rambam is that God orders the 

974
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:58,360
universe. 
And it is specifically by 

975
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:03,360
studying that order that we're 
able to cohere, as it were, with

976
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,680
God and what He has revealed to 
us. 

977
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,160
It is of course in this vein 
that we appreciate very deeply 

978
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,280
why for Rambam, this is an idea 
that he enunciates in his 

979
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:17,920
introduction to Rambam the 
Shmona Prakim and further in his

980
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:21,720
commentary on the 5th chapter, 
Revolt and the greatest length 

981
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:30,240
in the Guide Unit 2, chapter 29,
where Rambam emphasizes that 

982
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:36,120
from his perspective, both that 
which we describe as the miracle

983
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:40,920
and that which we describe as 
nature are reflections of the 

984
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:46,120
same system that God creates. 
Now understanding what Ramam is 

985
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,640
standing there is not a trivial 
enterprise, and I don't know to 

986
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:51,560
what extent we really have the 
time to go into. 

987
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:58,480
At greater length there's a a a 
very impassioned, would almost 

988
01:12:58,480 --> 01:13:04,720
say diatribe against what Ramam 
states there in Ababanelle's 

989
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:09,800
commentary on a vote Chapter 5, 
on the that which was created in

990
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,000
the twilight zone of Creation 
and Nakalat, a vote where he's 

991
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:14,920
against Ramam, he's also against
Robbie Udalevi. 

992
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,280
And I think there's a 
fundamental lacuna in 

993
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:21,520
Ababanelle's understanding of 
what Robbie Udalevi and Ramam 

994
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:23,840
are both stating. 
But for our purposes at present,

995
01:13:24,440 --> 01:13:32,040
the enterprise that both of them
enunciate with respect to that 

996
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:37,960
which we describe as the miracle
on some plane embedded in a 

997
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:43,080
divinely ordained system is so 
compelling. 

998
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:47,760
Because certainly in the case of
Rambam, but to some degree also 

999
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:53,200
for Abu da Levi, it is an 
imperative for us to strive to 

1000
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,080
come to God through exercise of 
our intellect. 

1001
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:02,400
When we encounter the enigmatic 
miracle, the best we can do is 

1002
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:06,240
stare at it, a gape with our 
jaws having dropped and our 

1003
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,440
intellects being quiescent. 
Rahman isn't interested in our 

1004
01:14:09,440 --> 01:14:12,320
intellects being quiescent. 
He's interested in our 

1005
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:17,600
harnessing our intellects as a 
means through which to come to 

1006
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:23,880
the source of everything that 
takes place in the system in 

1007
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:27,880
God. 
And to that extent, even 

1008
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:32,320
regarding the miracle as somehow
embedded in nature on a level 

1009
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:38,000
that we don't understand, is 
completely germane from his 

1010
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:42,120
perspective. 
Again, in keeping that intellect

1011
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:46,200
constantly active, I always like
to use a a mathematical analogy 

1012
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:56,120
here that if the graph has a a 
sharp corner to it, then the 

1013
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,280
function is behaving in a 
discontinuous manner. 

1014
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:01,760
There's no way of defining the 
derivative. 

1015
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:04,880
You don't know what's taking 
place. 

1016
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:09,120
And in some plane, again in 
terms of your bringing to bear 

1017
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:13,160
your analytical capabilities, 
you're forced to be quiescent. 

1018
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:15,640
Roman doesn't want you to be 
quiescent, he wants to be using 

1019
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:19,040
your mind constantly. 
You know from we just Roman 

1020
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:22,320
first introduced the centrality 
of the mind in the guide first 

1021
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:28,200
chapter, where it tells you that
the essence of God imprinted on 

1022
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,720
upon man is the intellect. 
That's Selim and Dmut. 

1023
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:32,760
Where does he enunciate that 
point? 

1024
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,560
The last time in the guide? 
The last chapter where he gives 

1025
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:38,120
you the four levels of 
completeness and tells you the 

1026
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:40,360
4th and highest level of 
completeness is intellectual 

1027
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:44,000
completeness through which a 
human being is a human being. 

1028
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:48,120
That's precisely the summons. 
So the study of science is 

1029
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:50,360
critical. 
It's critical in order to be 

1030
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:54,960
able to see God as author of 
system, but so far as the 

1031
01:15:55,000 --> 01:16:03,800
specific nuances, Rambam, I 
submit, is somewhat skeptical 

1032
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:08,840
with respect to that. 
There are a number of places in 

1033
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:11,080
the guide where I could invoke 
evidence for that. 

1034
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:16,200
Rabiu Dalevi is decidedly so in 
describing nature. 

1035
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:19,280
The study of nature, in the 
first treatises of Guzare in 

1036
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:24,760
section 77 as Shoaash Emunaba, 
Shoaash Hamevi, The root of 

1037
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:26,800
faith and the root of 
rebelliousness. 

1038
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:29,320
Because you can think in any way
you want. 

1039
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:36,400
So what I am going to invoke 
from science is as a believer, 

1040
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:45,240
something that will enhance my 
connection with God, as the 

1041
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:50,400
author of all that is. 
But I'm not going to attempt to 

1042
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:53,960
establish a theological system 
through being wedded to a 

1043
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:58,720
particular paradigm of physics 
or any other branch of the 

1044
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,840
sciences. 
Now, with respect to quantum 

1045
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:05,320
mechanics, what I do feel 
compelled to emphasize again 

1046
01:17:05,480 --> 01:17:12,400
hedging, that there are 
certainly enough problems in the

1047
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:16,000
current paradigm of quantum 
mechanics to expect that it will

1048
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:20,440
be at some point superseded by 
another paradigm that will 

1049
01:17:20,440 --> 01:17:22,080
supplant the currently accepted 
one. 

1050
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:29,240
But it does give us a sense of 
the extent to which indeed, in 

1051
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:34,400
this world, in our perception of
reality, there is that 

1052
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:38,920
irreducible subjectivity, that 
is the centrality of the 

1053
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:46,760
observer in quantum mechanics. 
As even to the extent that the 

1054
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,600
parameters of physical reality 
may be undefined, not merely 

1055
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,600
unknown, in the absence of an 
act of observation. 

1056
01:17:55,360 --> 01:18:00,200
If you ask me, does that have 
philosophical implications in my

1057
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:04,920
world view? 
My response is of course not 

1058
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:08,000
because I regarded that as 
necessarily a final word, and 

1059
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,880
also not because I am going to 
become some kind of inveterate 

1060
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:13,880
ellipsis. 
Who doesn't believe that there 

1061
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,080
is any well defined reality out 
there? 

1062
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:21,120
But again, because as we already
noted, we do believe that there 

1063
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:24,480
is an objective reality out 
there, but we also are 

1064
01:18:24,480 --> 01:18:28,120
circumspect in appreciating our 
own limitations in the extent to

1065
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:31,560
which we can know it on any plan
beyond our own subjectivity in 

1066
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:34,280
here. 
And to that extent, again, 

1067
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:37,120
that's something that I can 
certainly borrow, at the very 

1068
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:39,560
least at the level of analogy 
from quantum mechanics without 

1069
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:41,200
being wedded to the particular 
paradigm. 

1070
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,920
But it's not going to affect my 
conviction that on the one hand,

1071
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:50,520
God is indeed the author of the 
system that I observe in the 

1072
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:55,200
world, and as author, he's also 
sovereign over that system, and 

1073
01:18:55,200 --> 01:19:03,480
simultaneously that through the 
order of that system I am able 

1074
01:19:03,480 --> 01:19:10,080
to trace my way to the orderer. 
Not a proof, but a direction. 

1075
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:13,720
Wow. 
That was that was amazing. 

1076
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:17,560
Thank you. 
Wow really was an honor to have 

1077
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:21,680
you on and my brain is just got 
a great workout so I I 

1078
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:26,040
appreciate that and I if you 
have anything to plug quickly 

1079
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,040
please go ahead and definitely 
your channel we we. 

1080
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:32,120
Mentioned At this point I'm just
going. 

1081
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:37,160
Well, I, I, I, I invite everyone
to our YouTube channel, Jewish 

1082
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:40,040
Philosophy Matters. 
It's still very much of A work 

1083
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:43,160
in progress. 
There's sadly not a whole lot of

1084
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:47,440
content on it yet, but it is a 
platform that we do hope to be 

1085
01:19:47,440 --> 01:19:53,440
cultivating further and and 
certainly to connect through 

1086
01:19:53,440 --> 01:19:55,120
that. 
So we have some kind of a sense 

1087
01:19:55,120 --> 01:20:00,320
of where things should continue 
to develop because I think we 

1088
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:06,240
have the same agenda. 
We need to enhance the extent to

1089
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:13,320
which our Rabat Hashem is 
something that can indeed be not

1090
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:17,840
only rigorous. 
But compelling the generations 

1091
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:21,480
that lie ahead and us. 
Absolutely. 

1092
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:24,320
Thank you so much. 
Thank you so much. 

1093
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:27,520
This was amazing and hope we 
hope to do this again. 

1094
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,320
Hey guys, thanks so much for 
tuning into the Judas and 

1095
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:39,320
Demystified podcast. 
We really appreciate all your 

1096
01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:43,160
support and your feedback. 
If you want to help us grow the 

1097
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:45,200
podcast, keep spreading the 
word. 

1098
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:48,200
Share with your friends, family,
or whoever you think would be 

1099
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:51,960
interested. 
We also opened a Patreon so you 

1100
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:54,600
can become a patron. 
Contribute any small amount 

1101
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,280
you'd like, which would really 
help us grow the show. 

1102
01:20:58,440 --> 01:21:04,640
Our Patreon is 
www.patreon.com/judaism. 

1103
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:08,440
Pretty easy to remember. 
Thank you again and we hope to 

1104
01:21:08,440 --> 01:21:10,240
keep putting out great shows for
you guys. 

1105
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,920
Before we go, we want to thank 
our Patreon supporters by name. 

1106
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:26,280
Those are the supporters that 
are helping make this show 

1107
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:30,560
happen because frankly Benty and
I are full time workers who 

1108
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:32,800
don't really have so much time 
on our hands because we have 

1109
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:37,400
families, we have kids and it's 
just a passion project that got 

1110
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:41,760
way bigger than we expected. 
So we're dedicating more time to

1111
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:44,520
this and obviously our 
production value up until this 

1112
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:48,160
point hasn't been great 
considering that we film this in

1113
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:51,400
Benzie's basement using a green 
screen and a crappy little 

1114
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:55,840
microphone and not such great 
equipment to be honest, I'm sure

1115
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:59,520
you all realize that. 
So we are hoping to up our 

1116
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:04,840
quality and get better equipment
and part of that process is 

1117
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going to be due to you guys, the
listeners and supporters. 

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If you go to our Patreon page, 
patreon.com/judaism, you will 

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see all the different tiers of 
ways you can help us out. 

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So first of all, we want to 
thank our super patron Jordan 

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Carmeli, our platinum patron 
Craig Gordon, our Gold patrons 

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David Haye, Abram, Khayev, Laser
Cohen, Travis Kruger, Vasily 

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Volkov, Silver patrons, Ellen 
Fleischer, Daniel Maximov, Rabbi

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Penny Rosenthal, and Jeffrey 
Wasserman. 

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Thank you all for supporting the
show and we hope you guys enjoy.