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Welcome to Judaism, Demystified,
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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We are joined by Rabbi Doctor 
Mark Shapiro. 

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Robert Shapiro holds the 
Weinberg Chair in Judaic Studies

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at the University of Scranton. 
A graduate of Brandeis and 

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Harvard, he is the author of 
numerous books, articles, and 

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reviews, and is a popular 
scholar in residence at 

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synagogues around the world. 
He has written between the 

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Yeshiva World and Modern 
Orthodoxy and the Limits of 

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Orthodox Theology, both of which
were National Jewish Book Award 

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finalists. 
Other books of his include Saul 

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Lieberman and the Orthodox 
Studies in Maimonides and His 

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Interpreters and Changing the 
Immutable, How Orthodox Judaism 

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Rewrites Its History. 
In 2019 he published Igorot 

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Tamasche Ravanan, which contains
more than 30 years of 

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correspondence with some of the 
world's most outstanding Torah 

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scholars. 
He regularly publishes widely 

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read scholarly articles on this 
forum blog and is currently 

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writing a book on the thought of
Rav Cook. 

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Doctor Shapiro leads a number of
the Torah in Motion Jewish 

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history trips. 
His appearances on the Habura 

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and Torah in Motion are Must 
Watch without further ado, Rabbi

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Doctor Mark Shapiro. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcasts. 
We are honored to have Rabbi 

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Doctor Mark Shapiro on the 
podcast. 

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And before we begin, we would 
like our audience to know a 

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little bit about you. 
So if you can, please give us 

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just a brief about who you are. 
OK, thank you. 

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A pleasure, honor to be here. 
I grew up most of my life in New

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Jersey, had a typical Modern 
Orthodox education and day 

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school and high school, studied 
in Israel. 

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Then my BA is from Brandeis, My 
PhD is from Harvard. 

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I was Professor Isidor Yitzhak. 
Tversky's actually his last PhD 

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student that he sought to 
completion the doctorate. 

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Along the way I also studied 
some with Soleil Chicken. 

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This summer I got some Yuka from
her frying Greenblatt. 

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I worked as a rabbi for a few 
years, so I've done a a number 

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of different things. 
But my main job is work at the 

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University of Scranton, a 
professor in the religion 

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department, and in summers I do.
I lead Jewish history tours and 

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try to write, and I keep my 
voice out there. 

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I guess that's that's enough to 
say I think, about me. 

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Yeah. 
And you're you have excellent 

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shurim on the Habura. 
I do want to plug some of your 

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books, Changing the Immutable 
Limits of Orthodox Theology, 

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among others that were very, you
know, well versed in. 

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And, you know, we also want to 
recommend the audience listen to

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your new series on the Reform 
movement, which is what we're 

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going to be talking about 
tonight. 

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We kind of want to, you know, 
emphasize this because it's 

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fascinating. 
It really, it's really, really 

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interesting. 
And I think a lot of people just

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dismiss the reform movement off 
hand without actually studying 

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the history. 
So we want to kind of get to 

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know, you know, what it is that 
you're going to be this you are 

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discussing on your series. 
So first I want to just discuss 

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the origins of the first 
generation of the Reform 

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movement. 
What? 

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What was Gershom Solem's thesis 
on this, and what are your 

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thoughts on his thesis? 
OK, two separate things. 

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First of all, while you speak 
about reform, what Shalem is 

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speaking about is right at the 
beginning, like why did the 

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reform happen and where did it 
come from? 

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Did it just come out of the 
blue? 

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And Shalem, he saw really 
Sabakianism and everything, or 

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he tried to uncover it. 
And he makes the claim that 

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there was a connection not just 
between the early Reform but 

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also Haskell, early Haskell Law 
and Sebatianism. 

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His argument basically is that, 
well, first he tries to actually

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make some connections, actually 
physical connections between 

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people, Sebatians and early 
Haske Law. 

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But his basic argument is that 
Sebatianism, it's antinomianism.

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That is the idea that the Jewish
law is not binding, you know, 

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the whole Sebatian idea. 
We're entering into a new era 

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that that really set the stage 
for a questioning of the the 

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binding nature of halacha and 
really allowed for reform to 

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take root. 
I guess you could say in the in 

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the Jewish community, because 
ideas about the Jewish law of 

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Sebatian type of ideas had 
already filtered in. 

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I guess you could say the best 
way to put it. 

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Others have said show them, as 
far as I know did not say this, 

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that it's also due sabatinism 
had an influence in another way.

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The great disputes the end in 
Aisha's dispute that led to such

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a degeneration in in the eyes of
the people of the rabbis, 

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because they're killing each 
other, attacking each other, and

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with the lack of respect. 
And there have been a class that

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opened up the doors to the 
possibilities of new approaches,

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new rabbis. 
In terms of Sholom's point, the 

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second point, which Sholom, as 
far as I know does not make it 

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probably has some validity. 
The first point, I think 

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scholars have basically rejected
this. 

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There really doesn't seem to be 
any evidence about the 

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individual connections. 
And if I could say from my own 

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perspective, you always have to 
ask yourself, you know what If 

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So, what if there never was a 
Sebastian movement? 

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Do we really think that the 
reform movement went to develop 

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that they in? 
In modern times, all you have to

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do is look at the other Judea, 
you have to look at 

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Christianity. 
You see they had a Reform 

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movement as well. 
It's it's hard to imagine that 

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by the 18th century, when 
there's an enlightenment out 

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there in Europe, and where Jews 
are being welcomed to to a 

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limited extent to participate in
general culture, is that there's

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another when there's another 
option out there, it isn't just 

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Judaism or Christianity. 
You have this middle ground that

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you can you can be Jewish and 
Christian and meet in the middle

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ground. 
The neutral space is that Jews 

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would have remained committed to
halacha even without the even 

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without sebatianism. 
The idea that there wouldn't 

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have arisen a Reform movement. 
I I see it as incomprehensible 

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his position because certainly 
there would have arisen a Reform

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movement. 
Now why would have been because 

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Jews would have rejected Jewish 
law. 

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There's no question that with 
modernity, many Jews would have 

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felt that we don't want to be, 
you know, bound to these archaic

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laws. 
And at the same time, you would 

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have had people who have arisen 
who said, well, does that mean 

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we're going to lose these Jews 
entirely? 

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No. 
We want to offer them another 

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form of Judaism, one that you 
can still remain Jewish. 

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Because, remember, the early 
reformers were not converting. 

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They were not becoming 
apostates. 

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They wanted to remain Jewish, 
and they suffered to be for 

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remaining Jewish. 
If they would have become 

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Christian, the whole world would
have been open to them. 

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But they remained Jewish. 
So you see, they had a certain 

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amount of pride in their 
Judaism, but they didn't want 

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their Judaism to be understood 
as just through halacha. 

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You know, where did they get 
these ideas? 

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Well, well, if if you're living 
in Germany in the 18th century, 

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enlightened opinion is is 
talking about how organized 

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religion doesn't make sense. 
You know, ideas of miracles, 

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obligations, and you had the 
exact same thing going on in the

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Christian world. 
So it makes sense that those 

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Jews who wanted to leave the 
confines of the ghetto, even the

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opportunity, you didn't have a 
termed era Pirates of 

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Schumpscherhoff Arge. 
You had the choice either to be 

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part of greater German society 
and like in society we're living

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like a a ghetto sort of 
existence. 

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And the idea that you're gonna 
go to university and still 

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follow halacha that that option 
wasn't available. 

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So I think that we have to 
conclude that that Shalom's 

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argument is questionable. 
I don't even know if you can 

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make the case that sedate deism 
speed up the movement towards 

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reform. 
It appears to me, at least from 

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how I see it, that this is some 
something completely independent

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with no relationship whatsoever.
It's it's really response to 

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what's going on in an 
enlightened German society or an

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English society. 
Because there was Reform 

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movement in England also people 
forget about. 

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Yeah, you know, people also make
the make the same kind of 

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connection with Maimonideanism, 
you know, leading to 

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Enlightenment or or Kabbalah. 
I've heard many theories, but 

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I'm curious to know what you you
lightly touched on the Raviakov 

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Emdin and Ravionton Abishitz 
controversy. 

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How does he make that connection
there? 

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He's just saying that. 
I'm saying I don't. 

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I don't recall him actually 
speaking about. 

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He might say it, but many others
have made the point. 

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Maybe that's why he felt he 
didn't need to, that the 

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breakdown. 
I think Gretz makes the point 

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even now that the breakdown of 
rabbinic authority because of 

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the dispute. 
Look, everyone was in Hayram. 

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The Indian forces were putting 
them in Hayram, vice versa. 

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And if you're a layperson and 
you're looking and these, these 

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are our Gadoli and these are our
great rabbis, and they're 

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attacking one another like that,
it can only lead to a decline of

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their prestige in people's eyes.
And that the argument isn't 

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made. 
That's what led to the opening 

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for Haskell. 
Because look, if if this is who 

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our rabbis are, we're not, we're
not going to be, you know, like,

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you know, people, sophisticated 
people, people with sensitivity,

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they're going to see a problem 
with this and they're going to 

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be inclined to move in a 
different direction if offered. 

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So the the claim is made that, 
and I think there is validity to

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this, that the rabbis in the 
18th century remember that 

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Haskell of the movement away 
from traditional Judaism really 

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comes very shortly after these 
great disputes. 

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And it isn't just ending. 
I've shits. 

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This tore apart all of German 
jewelry. 

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The Pineya Shua people don't 
realize this. 

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Rishua Faulk, the great Pineya 
Shua was also on Ryako Hempden 

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side and many other Ghidoli were
entered today. 

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People assume it's just Yaakov 
Emdin, but it's not the case at 

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all. 
And whatever show you went to, 

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you sort of were involved in 
some in this dispute to a 

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certain extent. 
The big shows in the cities, I'm

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saying. 
Who were some of the figures 

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that really began the movement? 
Like who? 

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The Reform movement. 
Yes, the the the first 

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generation, how did it like I'm 
the first people. 

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When I speak about the Reform, 
I'm not speaking now about, 

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let's say, students at 
Mendelssohn who just gave up 

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traditional Judaism and either 
adopted some sort of universal 

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religion or no religion. 
Now I'm talking about people who

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actually advocated a a a new 
type of Judaism. 

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And I mean, you had the 
community of David Friedlander. 

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You had, you had, you had a 
whole, you had community in 

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Berlin and Humber, basically 
groups of Jews. 

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And they found certain rabbis 
who were willing to lead them. 

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So, for instance, there was a 
man named Eliezer Lieberman. 

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I don't know that much. 
Before I go on your readers, 

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full treatments of this can be 
found in this book by Michael 

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Meyer. 
What I tried, it's called 

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response to modernity or a 
history of the full moon in 

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Judaism. 
What I tried to do in the series

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is do some things which haven't 
really had much discussion, 

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namely the rabbinic rule. 
I'm not the, I mean, you know, 

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traditional rabbi is their 
involvement of it like he speaks

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about in Westphalia you had 
things going on. 

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You had in, in in in Berlin and 
Hamburg there was a movement of 

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laypeople first. 
It starts from the laypeople 

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that they want a different type 
of synagogue service. 

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No one is saying to get rid of 
the Sabbath, how many, how much 

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these people observe the 
Sabbath. 

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It's hard to imagine that there 
were any real Sabbath observers 

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the way we think of it. 
But they still, they wanted to 

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go to the synagogue and some of 
the things they wanted were 

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you'd be surprised before. 
They wanted sermons in the 

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vernacular and sort of like we 
get every week in our synagogues

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that that that everything was in
Yiddish. 

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They wanted it. 
However, in in German, they 

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wanted music, something that our
synagogues all have. 

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It's music. 
Singing of the sort we have, by 

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the way, is not a traditional 
Jewish thing either. 

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00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,280
But they're not even referring 
to that. 

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00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,680
They're referring to music like 
of a Cantor and a choir and an 

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00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:49,560
even musical instrument, The 
organ. 

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00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:51,640
The organ was considered very 
important, of course. 

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00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,800
Can you play an organ on 
Shabbos? 

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00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:59,200
We'll get into that as well. 
So they, they wanted decorum, 

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00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,080
they wanted aesthetics. 
They they think of the Stiebel, 

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00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,200
if you know what a Stiebel is, 
they wanted a different. 

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00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,520
And even if it's not a Stiebel, 
they had big synagogues in 

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00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,200
Germany. 
But you didn't have decorum you 

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00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,520
didn't have. 
We have descriptions by the way 

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of non Jews who came to the 
synagogue. 

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00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,200
And look when you when you feel 
comfortable in a synagogue, 

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00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,520
maybe you don't treat it the way
you're supposed to have it that 

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00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,400
they wanted to get rid of PU 
team. 

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00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,880
Look in Arsene I can speak for 
the Ashkenazim, my synagogue 

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00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,160
doesn't have any of the PU team.
Now what happened to them all 

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00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,840
they they got rid of them. 
So I guess we're Reform also. 

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00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,840
One of the ironies is that 
number of the reforms. 

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00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,840
Well, a number of the reforms 
are now considered basic today 

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00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,320
in a Modern Orthodox or even 
some in some parade communities.

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00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,440
They some of them wanted to 
change the pronunciation of the 

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00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:55,240
the to the Sardak pronunciation,
a variety of things like this, 

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00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,760
and there was an individual 
don't know much about him. 

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00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,160
His name was Eliezer Lieberman. 
He was not a. 

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00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,880
He was a learned person. 
How learned? 

251
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,280
It is hard to know, but he was 
learning enough to write a 

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00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,520
halachic work. 
He had a good Hebrew ability and

253
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,720
he was asked by the earlier 
formers, can this be justified 

254
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,360
halachically because they wanted
to be at least this. 

255
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,360
They wanted the synagogue to be 
halachic and that's what's 

256
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,320
unique about the first 
generation Reform. 

257
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,960
They saw themselves as a 
halachic movement. 

258
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,080
By the 2nd, 3rd generation they 
had no interest in halacha, but 

259
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,160
the first generation they wanted
to be halachic. 

260
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,120
So Eliezer Lieberman, he begins 
sending. 

261
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,440
He wrote his book as Well, or No
God's Called, which set forth 

262
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,840
his position. 
But then he got rabbis from 

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00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,080
Europe, mostly from Italy, one 
from Hungary, a couple of 

264
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,840
mishawaki from Israel, to answer
questions of his about these 

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00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,680
reforms. 
Now we don't know how many 

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00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:54,680
rabbis? 
He asked. 

267
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,640
Presumably he has lots of 
rabbis, and they turned to noun,

268
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,560
But he was able to publish a 
book called No God Sedic, which 

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00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,880
has mainstream rabbis. 
Even Aron Horan, who would later

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00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,640
be a leading Reform rabbi, 
Hassan Sofa, referred to him as 

271
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,200
Akher. 
But at this time he still was a 

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00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,320
traditional rabbi with reformist
ideas, and he published a volume

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00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,160
in which they defended so, for 
instance, an organ in a 

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00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,120
synagogue. 
They found a whole defense in 

275
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,480
this volume. 
What's wrong with an organ in a 

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00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,760
synagogue if a Nanju play plays 
it as Rimosha Kunitz, who was 

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00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,600
the Diane and Budapest? 
Today we call it Budapest wrote.

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00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,960
Every single Shabbat, the Nanju 
comes in and turns off the 

279
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,240
candles in the synagogue. 
And if it's, you know, if the 

280
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,240
candles were to go out, the 
Nanju would come in and like 

281
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,560
that. 
Well, if that's allowed, then 

282
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,920
why can't an organ be allowed 
played by a Nanju? 

283
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,000
And that will bring people to 
the synagogue so they can 

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00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,560
appreciate it. 
And after all he said and others

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00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,400
pointed out, they used to have 
weddings Friday afternoon which 

286
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,000
will continue into Shabbat and 
non Jews would play music today.

287
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,640
It's hard to imagine it, but non
Jews would play music at wedding

288
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,400
meals on Shabbat because it's a 
sudas mitzvah. 

289
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,920
It's and the non Jew is is 
playing it and he's told before 

290
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,600
Shabbat to do it, it's 
permissible. 

291
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:19,080
So that was the argument that 
was made and prayer in the 

292
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,840
vernacular. 
The people wanted to have prayer

293
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,520
in German. 
Now, what could be wrong with 

294
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,240
prayer in German? 
All all these authors wrote in 

295
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,280
this volume. 
After all, doesn't the Mishnah 

296
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:29,800
Doesn't the wrong mom tell us 
explicitly? 

297
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,640
Prayer can be in any language, 
so these were the sorts of 

298
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,560
matters they wanted to change to
update. 

299
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,600
Nothing about moving the Sabbath
to Sunday. 

300
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,120
Nothing about, you know that 
kosher food is only for an 

301
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,640
earlier time when they they 
didn't know how to keep the 

302
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,920
food, you know, at good 
temperatures. 

303
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,240
Nothing about the fact that a 
lot of these laws are only to 

304
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,240
keep us away from pagans. 
And today we live among 

305
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,080
dignified Christians, and 
therefore they're not 

306
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,160
applicable. 
No, it was a halachic movement 

307
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,720
designed to modernize Judaism. 
I can't hear you. 

308
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:09,359
Oh, so we wanted to I wanted to 
ask you how is the response of 

309
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:16,400
the of the Orthodox rabbis at 
this time towards this new kind 

310
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,520
of hula seeking seeking kula 
system of Eliezer Lieberman. 

311
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,640
So like what was like the the, 
the climate with with in the 

312
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,319
orthodox circle towards what was
going on over there? 

313
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,240
OK, well, the first thing to 
note is that we we don't want to

314
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,800
call them Orthodox yet. 
They only become Orthodox, sort 

315
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,680
of when there's a Reform. 
They're the traditionalist 

316
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,040
rabbis. 
And the the response? 

317
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:45,680
The response was furious because
the rabbis understood that much 

318
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,160
of this was about imitating the 
Christian practices. 

319
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,240
Much of what they wanted to do 
was an imitation. 

320
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,920
Why do you want an organ? 
Because the Christians have it. 

321
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,440
And look, you have to. 
The Rev Soloveitchik once said 

322
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:06,160
that maybe if Ramosha Sofia, the
Hatam Sofia, was not so strided 

323
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,480
in his opposition that we could 
have stopped the reform 

324
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,080
movement. 
After all, what did they want? 

325
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,240
The the, you know, many of the 
things they they, they didn't 

326
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,160
were not so extremely 
compromised. 

327
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,800
But then when we saw of a chick 
said, But you know what? 

328
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,960
If maybe if he wasn't so 
strident, things would have 

329
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,400
become much worse. 
The rabbis the the, the the 

330
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,760
leaders, the Gadoli astral we 
call them, understood that that 

331
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,680
for the the reform communities, 
these new communities, that they

332
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,320
would then call them Reform. 
This is only the first step and 

333
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,080
that this, this wasn't all that 
they wanted, that this was 

334
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,760
basically gonna open the 
floodgates. 

335
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,680
And their assumption was, and I 
think it's correct that the 

336
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,360
rabbis who replied rabbis in 
Italy, one in Budapest, they 

337
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:52,080
didn't understand what was going
on. 

338
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,480
They were answering this 
question just like it's a pure 

339
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,080
Halachic question without 
knowing the the context of 

340
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,040
what's going on in Germany and 
that you have communities of 

341
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,200
irreligious people. 
And this is just like the 

342
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,440
opening step before they move 
in, which they did move further 

343
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,480
along. 
And I think it's from Mordechai 

344
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:10,920
Bennett, if I remember 
correctly. 

345
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,480
He says, look at these letters, 
look at the, the, the, the, the 

346
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,720
letters. 
In Nogat Senec, you don't have 

347
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,320
any local rabbis. 
Why did Lieberman write to the 

348
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,400
people in the other countries? 
Precisely because they didn't 

349
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,280
know the situation and they 
would answer it just as a pure 

350
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,880
halacha question. 
If you were living in Germany 

351
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,440
and you saw up close what was 
going on, you would have 

352
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,880
understood that this was just 
you had to close the doors. 

353
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,440
We're not dealing. 
This isn't just a pure halacha 

354
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,720
question. 
This would open the floodgates 

355
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,600
to more and more. 
And I think we have to say that 

356
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,160
the rabbis, this rabbinic 
expression, Hakamadi Fu Navi, 

357
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,560
they're a a wise person. 
You know, there's there's more 

358
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,080
insight you could say than a 
prophet. 

359
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,840
They, Rev Moshe Sofre Remotege 
Bennett and the others 

360
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,720
understood what was going on 
here and and they put a stop to 

361
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,320
it to a large extent. 
But it is ironic that so many of

362
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,720
these reforms, if you read them 
today, we actually have them in 

363
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,600
our communities. 
But that's because we, we sort 

364
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,720
of fell into them organically 
and that is very different that 

365
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,800
Remotia Sofre understood very 
clearly. 

366
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,520
That the the Kavanaugh the 
intention is really determines 

367
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,240
many of these matters. 
In fact, he coined the phrase 

368
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,040
what's new is forbidden from the
Torah because today you can't 

369
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,960
have novelty, because it's so 
dangerous, because you have a 

370
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,040
whole group trying to tear down 
traditional Judaism. 

371
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,440
In earlier generations or in the
Svartic world, for instance, 

372
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,240
this isn't a problem because 
there isn't a Reform movement. 

373
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,120
So perhaps you could be more 
liberal. 

374
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,840
Incidentally, if you go to 
Budapest today, the Dohani 

375
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,120
synagogue, that's the big 
synagogue there of the the 

376
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:00,280
liberal Jews. 
They call them the neolok. 

377
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,880
To this day on Shabbat, they 
have an organ played by a Nanju,

378
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,480
and that's in line with the sock
of Hermosha Kunitz, the Dalian, 

379
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,520
the Dalian of Pesht. 
Wow, wow. 

380
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:21,240
Something that I'm taking from 
what you've said is that the 

381
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,480
beginning of the first 
generation reform, essentially 

382
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,120
what you explained came from 
actually from from from the 

383
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:30,920
bottom up, it was from the 
people, right. 

384
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,920
The people wanted certain 
changes and that that that 

385
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,760
sprung into well, what it became
for better or for worse, right. 

386
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,600
But what I'm taking from that 
is, is that, you know, in 

387
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,000
general we tend to think that 
change can only come from 

388
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,640
leaders. 
But in reality, what what we can

389
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,760
learn from that is that, you 
know, we as members of the 

390
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,560
community, members of the Jewish
people as people can create 

391
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,760
change. 
If we if we if we if we make, if

392
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,520
we do it the right way, it's 
possible to make change. 

393
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:07,600
We're not. 
Absolutely. 

394
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,000
Leadership. 
In fact, in by the 2nd and 3rd 

395
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,520
generation Reform, the Rabbis 
were running the show when they 

396
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,960
were leading it. 
But in the early years it was 

397
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,440
the people. 
They didn't have rabbis, they 

398
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,920
started their synagogues. 
Later they call them temples, 

399
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:24,320
and they were not happy with the
main synagogue and they wanted 

400
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,080
to make changes. 
But of course, what you say is 

401
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,480
absolutely correct and change 
can come from the people. 

402
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,080
It's it's always come from the 
people, sometimes consciously 

403
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,920
but often unconsciously. 
That is, the people just develop

404
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,600
in a certain way. 
And the earlier Reform movement,

405
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,920
but it's a but the what I'm 
speaking about is a one 

406
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,840
generation thing because when 
the rabbis didn't go along with 

407
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,920
it and it became obvious that 
you couldn't create Halaqa 

408
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,720
Reform synagogues. 
If you want to use the term 

409
00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:00,960
Reform, then by the next 
generation you know Halaqa is 

410
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,800
really jettisoned as a as a 
binding principle. 

411
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,160
Leaders like Geiger and others 
whole time they have no interest

412
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,520
in Halaqa. 
They come out of strict Orthodox

413
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,400
backgrounds, but they believe 
that we're now in a new era and 

414
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,560
we don't need to go to the 
rabbis for to get their 

415
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,880
opinions. 
OK. 

416
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,160
So on that note, since we're now
segwaying into the second 

417
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,400
generation reform, when and why 
did the second generation reform

418
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,080
develop? 
You touched up on it a little 

419
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,520
bit now, but if maybe should 
expand on that a little bit, 

420
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,760
right? 
And and how did it differ from 

421
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,640
the first? 
OK, well no, God said. 

422
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,280
It appears in 1818. 
Geiger's dates are 1810 to 1874.

423
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,400
So by 1840, let's say 50, you 
have a a real strong reform 

424
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,360
movement of some significance. 
What you have is you have a 

425
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:55,280
group of individuals like mind 
individuals who have been raised

426
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,920
traditionally and some were real
time old time. 

427
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:05,520
Guy Geiger's a big time. 
He was a covers the University 

428
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:11,760
of with the University of Bond 
with with Hirsch and they 

429
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:16,280
together come to the conclusion 
that Judaism needs to be 

430
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,520
updated. 
And you have some in this group 

431
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,520
who are radical, extremely 
radical, who wanna jettison the 

432
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,880
entire oral Law. 
Basically they're very much like

433
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,680
Karates that you know they just 
the the Bible, that's all they 

434
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,240
want. 
Then there's others who are much

435
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,680
more traditional who see Reform.
They take the mantle of 

436
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,360
Pharisees, that we reformers are
like the old Pharisees, We're 

437
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:45,080
the traditionists and you can't 
ask what the Pharisees said. 

438
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,000
You have to ask what they would 
say if they were around today 

439
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,720
and that's Geiger's position 
that and you have many rabbis in

440
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,400
towns and you have to understand
you're in a small town let's say

441
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,320
in Germany and the people, they 
just listen to what the rabbi 

442
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,040
says. 
And if the rabbi comes home one 

443
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,360
day and says that, you know, now
the rabbis have decided you only

444
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,720
need to keep one day of the 
omtov, you know, well not two 

445
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,480
days anymore, what do the people
know? 

446
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,160
They'll they'll go along with 
it. 

447
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:19,240
That's why it was very dangerous
situation and it took a while 

448
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,240
before it became clear that 
there were two camps here, the 

449
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,080
Orthodox camp and the Reform 
camp, because there was a lot, 

450
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,680
as I would say, false 
advertising. 

451
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,680
You know, they have little 
rabbis in little towns that they

452
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:36,120
can advertise their positions. 
But Geiger was a well known 

453
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,920
figure and he really is the most
important. 

454
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,400
And the argument basically is 
that we are now in a different 

455
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,840
stage by the mid, let's say, 
19th century. 

456
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,440
The argument is we're at a 
different stage. 

457
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,080
We're living among civilized 
gentiles. 

458
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,480
Many of the laws in the past 
were designed to keep us 

459
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,080
separate from the non Jews. 
These are not the type of non 

460
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,040
Jews today that we no longer can
believe what other people 

461
00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,440
believe. 
That is, we can't believe in 

462
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,800
Tara Musini tradition in a 
traditional sense. 

463
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,400
So if you're if you have the 
argument that we can't believe 

464
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,080
in Torah the way it used to be 
believed in. 

465
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,840
So what's important So 
monotheism's important Ethical 

466
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,400
monotheism, the idea that the 
Jews have a mission, that we're 

467
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,440
we're a holy people because we 
spread morality that so that 

468
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,920
becomes the stress. 
And as Geiger himself as I 

469
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,520
recall said, you know we're not 
inspired by the rule of a 

470
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,320
natural getting more you know 
we're we're not jettisoning all 

471
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,760
of the Bible, but we're looking 
for what what speaks to us. 

472
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,920
Not everything speaks to us. 
So it was a recreating of 

473
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,640
Judaism in line with modern 
sensibilities. 

474
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,600
So from an Orthodox perspective,
this is terrible. 

475
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,480
This is the worst at destroying 
Torah. 

476
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,840
So you can understand why they 
attacked them so brutally and 

477
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,360
viciously and justifiably from 
Alaska perspective. 

478
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,200
But if you take the broader 
view, you can actually be what 

479
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,560
we'd say, Mohammed Sult. 
Remember, these are people who, 

480
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,000
although the Orthodox said to 
them, you're no different than 

481
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,280
the Christians, You want to get 
rid of Torah. 

482
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:06,720
You know, you're like Paul, 
who's Saul of Tarsus. 

483
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,800
You're saying that, you know, we
don't need the the law anymore, 

484
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,480
but these are people who could 
have abandoned Judaism and all. 

485
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,960
They still suffered as Jews. 
There was all sorts of 

486
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,360
disabilities on them in the 
professions and in other areas, 

487
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,240
and yet they chose not to. 
They chose to remain Jewish. 

488
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,760
So they were proud to be Jewish.
So from our perspective, I think

489
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,480
we have to look at them and say 
although of course they were 

490
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,520
wrong in their views of halacha,
but to see them as the Orthodox 

491
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:38,440
of the times saw them as simply 
wanted the easy way out and not 

492
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,120
caring about Judaism. 
Really you have to, it depends 

493
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:43,880
how you look at the glass half 
full half hepty. 

494
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,080
They suffered for their Judaism.
It's not a Judaism that we 

495
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,560
recognize, but in their mind it 
was Judaism. 

496
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,400
And and look at the end of the 
day many of these Jews died, oh 

497
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,320
Kiddush Hashem because they 
remained Jewish. 

498
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,600
Had they converted to 
Christianity in the mid 19th 

499
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,040
century, 100 years later, they 
would have been regarded as 

500
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,880
Aryan because it would have been
four or five generations. 

501
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,440
So we have to give some over. 
If Cook says that in every, even

502
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,360
in every negative thing, there's
sparks of holiness, so what's 

503
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,360
the spark of holiness in reform?
I think this is the spark of 

504
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:18,640
holiness that they still showed 
a connection. 

505
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,200
They didn't want to give up that
last spark of Judaism that they 

506
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,440
had. 
Something was keeping them in 

507
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,480
the community. 
It wasn't over the way we see 

508
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,840
it, but it was something, yeah. 
So they so they essentially 

509
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,480
wanted to kind of focus on 
Judaism as an idea versus law, 

510
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,640
right, essentially. 
Yes, the law. 

511
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,160
There's no no such thing as law 
anymore. 

512
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,360
There's only suggestions. 
I guess you could say if the 

513
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,360
practice gives you inspiration, 
then do it. 

514
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,080
So what's Shabbos? 
Shabbos to them is not the 39 

515
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,080
Mahot. 
It's not what you can't do. 

516
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,600
It's the idea of Sabbath, the 
spirit, the day of a family, 

517
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,000
time of connecting to God. 
So some people said, well then 

518
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,480
we why don't we make it on 
Sunday? 

519
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,040
Then we could do the same thing.
But that was voted down. 

520
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,000
They had three major rabbinic 
Reform conferences where they 

521
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,480
voted on these matters. 
Circumcision. 

522
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,560
Some Reform rabbi said it's 
barbaric and others said no, 

523
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,880
it's it ties us to the 3000 
years of Jewish history and it's

524
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,520
so it's not a command. 
The the, the, the, the practices

525
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,600
are never a command anymore from
God. 

526
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,960
Rather, it's our way of 
connecting to God because they 

527
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,840
believed in God. 
But if these are creations of 

528
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,520
humans to try to connect to God,
and we have to decide whether or

529
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,400
not we still find meaning in 
them. 

530
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,000
You know what's interesting to 
me? 

531
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,840
You can. 
We can make the same sort of 

532
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,320
criticism on the opposite 
direction towards Orthodoxy, in 

533
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,360
that Orthodoxy is so hyper 
obsessed with Alpha that they 

534
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,240
lose the forest from the tree, 
the trees from the meaning they 

535
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,720
lose the the soul of the matter.
Right, Because. 

536
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,600
Obviously. 
At that. 

537
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,920
Point has been made by many. 
It was made very strongly by Rif

538
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,120
Cook. 
That and by Heschel. 

539
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,480
Heschel said that Orthodox Jews 
are not in awe of God, they're 

540
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,000
in awe of the shukran earth. 
I mean that's that's a big 

541
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,000
problem when you're at, you 
could be at a Pesach seder and 

542
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,360
instead of focusing on, you 
know, this great redemption, the

543
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,200
focus is on the, the Shirin, the
Kazais, this and that. 

544
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,120
I mean when I was in yeshiva, 
I'll never forget this. 

545
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,760
So they took us. 
I think it was her Shabbos or 

546
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,640
Shabbos, I can't remember to the
the Western Wall and you can see

547
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,840
Harabayi. 
You're supposed to do Crea when 

548
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,840
you see that and for whatever 
reason today people don't do it.

549
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,560
There's discussions as to why 
they don't. 

550
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,160
That's bottom up by the way. 
The people don't do it. 

551
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,720
Then the rabbi's trying to 
justify it, but the sources say 

552
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,360
you should. 
So we went on either air shops, 

553
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,080
I forget or should before 
Shabbos or Shabbos. 

554
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,680
But I remember that we were told
we're going so we wouldn't have 

555
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,400
to do the Crea. 
And even then I was only 18. 

556
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,120
I remember thinking this is like
so wrong, so Orthodox, if you 

557
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,880
want to put it, we're supposed 
to see Harabayi and be so, you 

558
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,160
know, moved by the the the scene
of the the non Jewish house, you

559
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,560
know, the houses of worship, the
shrine up there that we're 

560
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,360
supposed to do Crea. 
But instead, we try to find a 

561
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,320
trick to go at a time when we 
don't have to do it to spare our

562
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,840
shirts. 
I mean that would be an example 

563
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,880
of seeing the far losing the the
forest for the trees instead of,

564
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,160
you know, and unfortunately, 
Orthodox Jews fall into that 

565
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,400
trap, what Heschel called halajo
centrism. 

566
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,040
That look, if Salvatrix said 
that halajo is not the ceiling, 

567
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,000
it's the floor, we have to fall 
halajo, of course, but that's 

568
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,920
not all there is. 
That's the basis. 

569
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,120
And then you have, if you would,
you could be with the Ramban 

570
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,040
says and the valbra, juta Tara, 
you can follow all the halajo 

571
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,360
exactly. 
And yet you're still a scoundrel

572
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,040
because you lose sight That how 
I thought there's a tell us you 

573
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,640
know it's trying to get you 
somewhere. 

574
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,360
So there's no question that the 
non orthodox the reform had a 

575
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,160
point and they there were many 
problems in the traditional 

576
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,520
world. 
Hirsch himself pointed out there

577
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,000
were many problems. 
Hirsch was a reformer with a 

578
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,680
small R and he but he adopted 
the critique he we say or he 

579
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,280
agreed with much of the critique
of the reformers. 

580
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,360
What sense does it make to say 
you're not gonna have sermons in

581
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,960
the vernacular what the Yiddish 
is? 

582
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,320
Holy language or something? 
Now Taro was given in Yiddish. 

583
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,360
The people want music. 
So you have a choir. 

584
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,920
Hirsch has a choir. 
Hirsch started wearing gowns. 

585
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,000
What's the problem? 
I mean, the other rabbi said 

586
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,320
it's absolutely forbidden, but 
the people, they wanted it. 

587
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,640
They thought it was dignified. 
And if that's gonna bring him to

588
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,760
the synagogue, Hirsch thought 
that this you're being, you're 

589
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,480
cutting off your nose to spite 
your face, that you're making 

590
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,640
stands on meaningless small 
things. 

591
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,480
You have to look for the bigger 
picture here. 

592
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,360
So what, German neo orthodoxy. 
German orthodoxy, which gets 

593
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,640
going through Hirsch, 
Hildesheimer and others, they 

594
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,720
recognize the problems that the 
Reform pointed to, but they 

595
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,640
offered a different solution. 
Obviously it's not abandoning. 

596
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,560
Hahaha, it's But it's creating a
new type of Judaism. 

597
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,080
And Geiger was very upset with 
Hirsch when Hirsch publishes 19 

598
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,760
letters because Geiger, Geiger 
thought that he was going to be 

599
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,360
dealing just with old fashioned 
Judaism, which would remain a 

600
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,040
tiny segment. 
But here Hirsch comes along and 

601
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,800
says no, you can be observant 
and you can have everything. 

602
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,720
You can go to the university and
be a government worker. 

603
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,320
Geiger's whole point was that 
traditional Judaism is a pre 

604
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,920
19th century form of Judaism. 
We if you want to be a 19th 

605
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,600
century German Jew, you can only
be a reformed Jew. 

606
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,920
And the traditionalists agreed 
with Geiger. 

607
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,400
They also agreed with Geiger 
that she writes, you can't go to

608
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,360
the university if you want to be
a traditional Jew. 

609
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,120
So what would that have left 
traditional Judaism with a small

610
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,640
little group? 
That's it. 

611
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,880
It's Hersh who comes on the 
scene and says those rabbis, the

612
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,200
traditionalists, they're wrong, 
that we can we can be part of 

613
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,080
this German society, but we 
don't have to give up to her. 

614
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,440
So it's you have to accept parts
of the critique of the 

615
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,000
reformers, because the the 
traditionalist rabbis were 

616
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,199
living in the 19th century just 
like they were living in the 

617
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:15,120
18th and 17th and 16th century. 
And that led to disaster. 

618
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,639
In the year 1800, every large 
community was dominated by the 

619
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:21,639
traditional Jews. 
In two generations, every every 

620
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:23,920
city was dominated by the Reform
Jews. 

621
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,840
This happened on the watch of 
the traditional rabbis. 

622
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:30,280
If they were football coaches, 
they all would have been fired. 

623
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,719
It happened on their watch and 
Hirsch understood this. 

624
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,560
They allowed reform to grow. 
And Hirsch said, you know why 

625
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,040
they allowed reform to grow? 
Because they didn't understand 

626
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,560
Torrendera Harris. 
Torre has to deal with every 

627
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,840
civilization and every era and 
the response of Torre's gonna be

628
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,560
different. 
These rabbis, they were in 

629
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:51,080
eighteen 19th century Berlin and
they were acting like they were 

630
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,120
in 17th century Vilma. 
You know that's you can't have a

631
00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:00,760
Judaism like that and and so 
yes, was Hirsch a reformer, of 

632
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,240
course reformer with a small 
horror. 

633
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:05,360
But he understood something that
the reformers also understood, 

634
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,120
that Judaism can't remain 
static. 

635
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:13,040
Isn't, isn't, isn't a lot of 
what you're expressing now, kind

636
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,360
of what Modern Orthodoxy is 
striving for. 

637
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,360
Exactly. 
You have. 

638
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,360
It's not just Modern Orthodoxy. 
Haridim also are doing it. 

639
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,680
Not the Harim in Israel. 
Haridim in America. 

640
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,560
They're so acculturated. 
They're so though you go to the 

641
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,360
the basketball game and there's 
a block culture hot dog stand 

642
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,360
there. 
So what? 

643
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,040
You could fight. 
You could scream, you could say 

644
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,400
this is terrible. 
My kids Super Bowl Sunday. 

645
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,280
So what do they do during the 
half? 

646
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,240
You when I was young and 
yeshiva, the rabbis would get up

647
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,000
and tell you not to watch it. 
It's terrible. 

648
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,240
Today they don't say that. 
They say during the halftime 

649
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:46,840
she'll call in. 
They have like a little sheer 

650
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,400
for 20 minutes. 
So that's what turned our 

651
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,320
harence is you recognize the 
reality. 

652
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,480
You're going to fight against 
things. 

653
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,240
You can't fight against it. 
This is the way of the world, so

654
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,680
you have to deal with it. 
And that was what Hirsch 

655
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,280
understood. 
He's not saying that in Poland 

656
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,480
they should wear a gown or that 
they should have a sermon. 

657
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:04,960
Remember sermons come from the 
reform. 

658
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,720
Also, we never had sermons. 
We had rushes. 

659
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,560
But a sermon, the way we think 
of it, like a 10 minute talk 

660
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,560
which is supposed to edify and 
give you inspiration that comes 

661
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,520
out from the that comes from the
Christians, the Protestants and 

662
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,760
then their formers adopted, the 
people wanted it. 

663
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,880
It's hard to imagine that people
wanted sermons today. 

664
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,320
They don't like sermons, but 
they demanded sermons. 

665
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,640
They never had that. 
So that's a it's a good idea so 

666
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,400
but Hersch isn't saying that you
should do this in Boland. 

667
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,000
You know that when Rosary 
Hodesimer came to Berlin, he's 

668
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,840
he observed that no, sorry. 
Now when Rousseau Cilantro came 

669
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,720
to Berlin, he saw Rousseau 
Cilantro teaching a class in in 

670
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:47,480
hahaha to young women in Berlin.
And he said if he if the rabbi 

671
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,600
in Russia ever tried to teach 
women, you know, advanced 

672
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,760
halakha like that or I shouldn't
say advanced just halakha, 

673
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,200
they'd throw them out and for 
good reason, he said. 

674
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,960
But I wish that my share in 
Omhaba will be Israel 

675
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,440
Hildesheimer, because every 
community is different. 

676
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,280
And you mentioned Modern 
Orthodoxy, Hirsch Hildesheimer. 

677
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,680
This is a form of Modern 
Orthodoxy. 

678
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,680
It's a recognition of the issues
of the problems, but giving a 

679
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,880
different solution. 
Look, girls are being educated. 

680
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,840
So what are you gonna do? 
You have to give that. 

681
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,240
You have to have a reform. 
You have to teach girls. 

682
00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:21,920
Then if they're getting 
educated, secondarily, you have 

683
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,320
to educate them Torah as well. 
So the Reform movement had a 

684
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,520
correct diagnosis, many of the 
problems. 

685
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,120
But there's a solution was was 
the incorrect approach. 

686
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,800
The one wayward. 
The solution one wayward. 

687
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,200
Because they assumed that by 
definition. 

688
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,880
Since they confused, I would say
the out the shell with the 

689
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,360
kernel. 
This there's a shell the way the

690
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,600
Jews they said you couldn't get,
you had to work, let's say as as

691
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,680
a merchant you couldn't have 
what we would call today white 

692
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,600
collar professions 'cause that 
would mean you have to go to the

693
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,280
university. 
We can't go to the university. 

694
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,960
We they said you can't make any 
changes in this synagogue. 

695
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,240
You can't have the sermons in 
the vernacular, you can't have 

696
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:02,280
sermons at all. 
You can't have music where 

697
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,320
people you know all the things. 
By the end, again it wasn't 

698
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,280
singing along but listening to a
Cantor, all these things because

699
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,320
we can't have any changes. 
And then the Reform pointed this

700
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,200
out, but then they threw out. 
Not only did they make the 

701
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,840
change, they threw out, ha ha, 
they threw out the divine nature

702
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,280
of Torah, when really all you 
had to do was modify the 

703
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,320
external. 
And that's what Hirsch's whole 

704
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:22,880
point was. 
He said you may need to 

705
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,360
distinguish between the Colonel,
the Torah, which is eternal, and

706
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,000
the outer form, which is 
different, obviously. 

707
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,120
It's different in every society.
That's what Torah Derek Harris 

708
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,400
means, Torah with whatever Derek
Eretz there is. 

709
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,640
And so Reform took the Derek 
Eretz and they created their own

710
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,360
Torah, whereas Hirsch kept the 
Torah. 

711
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,560
And since the Darrell Harris has
changed, he, you know, the outer

712
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,920
form of the change, the I guess 
if you want to speak like an 

713
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,840
Aristotelian, you have matter 
and form. 

714
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,720
The matter remains the same, the
form changes. 

715
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:58,480
But for the Reformers, not only 
the form changed, but the matter

716
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,040
was changed. 
There wasn't any bases of tar 

717
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,720
anymore. 
Very, very excellent points. 

718
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,760
There's a lot there to unpack. 
One of the things that I think 

719
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,120
is a tragedy, it's the reaction 
to the Reform movement, for 

720
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,680
example, them championing like 
you mentioned, Tanakh, just like

721
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,000
the Carites. 
It kind of led to a response by 

722
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,120
the orthodox or the 
traditionalists later to to just

723
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,880
champion Talmud study and 
halacha like you said. 

724
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,520
And I till this day I feel like 
this is really a one part that's

725
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,680
just lacking in in in the 
Orthodox. 

726
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,320
Majorly. 
Well, it's the Ashkenazic 

727
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,440
orthodox world, not the Spartak 
orthodox world. 

728
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,800
It actually wasn't a response to
the reformers. 

729
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,680
That's the response to the 
Haskola, the Muskili that begin 

730
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,200
in Germany and of course in 
Germany the Muskili and the 

731
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,760
Reformers, they intersect. 
But in Eastern Europe you don't 

732
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,320
really have reformers and the 
reformers you have are really 

733
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,840
Helochic, completely helochic. 
You don't have. 

734
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,520
They just, you try not correct 
to call them reformers. 

735
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,800
They're liberals say but because
the Muskili. 

736
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,960
They've also wanted a broad they
they had a good diagnosis also. 

737
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,640
The diagnosis was that we have 
to you know have some breath. 

738
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,040
Not everyone can function you 
know just you know either go to 

739
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,560
yeshiva or something they wanted
to and Judaism is broader. 

740
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,320
The Spartak Rd. never would have
had this problem because the 

741
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,240
Spartak Rd. recognized you have 
the great poets in in Spain you 

742
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:26,880
have the philosophers all these 
things. 

743
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,760
But Ashkenaz's Judaism has 
always been Talmudic centric. 

744
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,280
And then when the but there 
never was a problem reading 

745
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,800
Tanakh but that wasn't something
most people did. 

746
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,520
If you're a Tom McLaughlin but 
then when the stealing started 

747
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,200
championing this then you start 
having a a trend against it. 

748
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,800
You're not even for Shoma Cougar
great great hawk authority from 

749
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,280
Glitzia says you can't even 
teach kids Tanakh. 

750
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,520
And the old joke which isn't 
just a joke you how do you know 

751
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,120
a verse from Tanakh You know it 
from the the Talmud the page 

752
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,680
it's on. 
But this trend actually goes 

753
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,240
back even to medieval times. 
The Toast Fold already talks 

754
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:03,240
about how we don't need to study
Tanakh because you know 

755
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,040
everything. 
We got everything in the Talmud,

756
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,440
and Hirsch criticizes this in 
his 19 letters. 

757
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,920
That's a mistake, but it reached
extreme proportions because the 

758
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,560
early opinions, whenever saying 
that there's a problem when it's

759
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,040
done off, they just say you 
don't need to. 

760
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,480
By the coming at the 19th 
century, if you're in a Bait Me 

761
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,280
Drash and you're sitting there 
reading, let's say Safer Yohesco

762
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,320
or Safer Danil Khasmusallab, 
they're going to assume that 

763
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,480
you're not a traditional Jew but
you're some Moscule, because 

764
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,320
that's not what we do. 
And that's a complete 

765
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,960
distortion, obviously. 
And it it's, you know, often 

766
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,240
backlashes lead to extreme 
positions and eventually you 

767
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:38,680
find your way to the middle 
ground. 

768
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,520
But it it, it hurt traditional 
Judaism a good deal. 

769
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,520
And it did not allow traditional
Judaism to respond, I think 

770
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,200
creatively to challenges in the 
20th century with the rise of 

771
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,400
the State of Israel and return 
to biblical, you know, sites 

772
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,360
that and how to relate to this. 
And fortunately in the religious

773
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,000
Zionist world, there now is a 
renewed emphasis on Tarak, 

774
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,160
Mahonertzag and much going on 
great stuff. 

775
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:08,280
But you're absolutely correct 
that the the response led to all

776
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,000
sorts. 
Well, you had that response to 

777
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:11,760
the reformers. 
I don't know if you know this, 

778
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,280
that in Hungary the response to 
the reformers was so extreme 

779
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,040
that they made all sorts of 
resolutions. 

780
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,080
So, for instance, you couldn't 
have a wedding and a synagogue 

781
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,360
in Hungary. 
This was banned because the 

782
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,200
reformers did it. 
You could not have a choir, you 

783
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,840
could not have sermons in the 
vernacular. 

784
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,600
This is, it's a common theme and
it's an understandable things 

785
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,360
that would be permissible when 
they're advocated by the other 

786
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,280
side. 
Then they became very, very 

787
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,680
problematic and it takes a while
to reach equilibrium. 

788
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,520
Fascinating. 
So we touched on the different 

789
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,280
sects that splintered off. 
Besides, you know, Orthodoxy, 

790
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,200
Modern Orthodoxy, Modern 
Orthodoxy, Conservative, Reform,

791
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,480
Reconstructionist. 
We have many subgroups that have

792
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,800
splintered off these primary 
sects. 

793
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,480
Sticking to the main branches of
Jewish sectarianism today, what 

794
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,960
would you personally suggest and
hope should be done with these 

795
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,840
issues that we have today? 
Well you know it's hard to know 

796
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,200
who's a sectarian or not because
to the people, to the right 

797
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,440
often see the people to the left
as a sectarian. 

798
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,320
And even just in the wider 
Orthodox world, you probably are

799
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,200
aware of how many leading 
Orthodox figures have pointed to

800
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,240
Yeshiva's called Vittora as open
Orthodox as sort of like a 

801
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:35,200
sectarian type of reformist 
movement. 

802
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:41,280
So my attitude is that, look, we
have to recognize reality here, 

803
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,280
that we have all these different
types of Judaism. 

804
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,760
You mentioned them, you didn't 
mention renewal. 

805
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,800
That's another one. 
Now these are all people who in 

806
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:58,160
this, in our era of, of, of 
secularism, of post religion, in

807
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,160
much of the world, you have 
people who want to be Jewish and

808
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,120
that's already a glass half 
full. 

809
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,840
And So what do you do with these
people? 

810
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,440
Do you throw them out? 
Do you reject them? 

811
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,720
You don't want them, obviously. 
There's real difficulties that 

812
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,520
the Orthodox side has with the 
others that there's even an 

813
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,960
aspect, which you didn't mention
that when you deal with the 

814
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,240
Reform movement, for instance, 
conserving movement to a lesser 

815
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,760
extent, but also significant, 
many of the members are not even

816
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,120
holically Jewish. 
So that raises its own problems 

817
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,840
because of patrilineal dissent 
or conversions that we don't 

818
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,680
recognize. 
But let's leaving that aside. 

819
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,680
I have thoughts about what to do
with that as well. 

820
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,200
But leaving that aside, at the 
end of the day we can go back to

821
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,800
something and that Siv said not 
so. 

822
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,480
I see you here to bring in. 
He said that among each other we

823
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,240
fight. 
Obviously we fight about 

824
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:49,480
matters, 'cause they're 
important to us. 

825
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,160
So if they're not, you don't 
fight about things. 

826
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,920
If they're not important to you,
if if we all got along and no 

827
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,760
one had any disputes, it would 
mean that we don't take it 

828
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,920
seriously. 
However, when it comes to the 

829
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,640
outside world, then that Siv 
said this, and he was referring 

830
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,480
to all types of Jews just like 
we have today. 

831
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,520
You joined together because you 
need to distinct or Solovacek 

832
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,440
also elaborates on this. 
This is what we call Coppe 

833
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,400
chutzu penim that we all still 
are people. 

834
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,160
They're reformers, They're 
completely irreligious. 

835
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,960
We see this right now in Israel.
You know when when we deal with 

836
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,600
the enemies, we're all one 
people. 

837
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,160
So I think and and I think we're
in an era where everyone can 

838
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,560
recognize that the era of 
polemics of criticizing the 

839
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,920
other, of trying to tear them 
down, It's past. 

840
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,600
It doesn't accomplish anything. 
What's the point of a polemic 

841
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,760
against the reformers? 
You're not going to convince 

842
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,720
anyone. 
This was all done 100 years ago.

843
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:42,720
Well, I think we need to 
recognize and that and treat 

844
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:44,440
everyone with respect. 
They have a different opinion. 

845
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,200
We think it's incorrect, but 
they think that we're incorrect 

846
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,960
and that way we can coexist and 
we want to coexist. 

847
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,640
We don't want to live like 
Satmar or living in some shtetl.

848
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,240
We want to be part of the larger
Jewish people. 

849
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:00,640
Because even before you had the 
Reform movement, we still had 

850
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,920
prayers saying, you know, Rosh 
Hashanah, he's the Ashkenazi or 

851
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,040
Yom Kippur. 
You know that we're going to 

852
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,200
pray with the sinners. 
We've always had sinners, so we 

853
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,240
had more sinners. 
Today, most of the Jewish 

854
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:13,040
community is sinners, but we're 
sinners also. 

855
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:14,680
We're just sinners in different 
ways. 

856
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,640
We're all sinners. 
Maybe we're better in certain 

857
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,960
areas, but some of these 
Reformed Jews, I don't call them

858
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,560
non religious, some of them are 
very religious, they're not 

859
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,120
Hilah. 
So they're misguided, but 

860
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,120
they're they're we're all one 
people and look in the Spartak 

861
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,760
world that you come from, you 
never had the Reform move, you 

862
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,320
never had movements 
denominations, but you always 

863
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,400
had different levels of 
religiosity and you always were 

864
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,920
able to be a a large tent. 
The Ashkenazi unfortunately, 

865
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,080
have denominations. 
It's our curse that has a lot. 

866
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,040
To do with just living in 
Christian countries, you know 

867
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,160
the the, the influence of that, 
you know countless sects of 

868
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,280
Christianity and I think that 
there you just naturally model 

869
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,000
after that, you know? 
Well, also I think they were 

870
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,560
living in eras where secular 
society was very sophisticated 

871
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,200
and the people went to 
universities. 

872
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,120
That opened up all sorts of 
possibilities. 

873
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,000
But at the end of the day, you 
ask what to do with all these 

874
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,160
different sects. 
I say don't do anything with 

875
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,600
them. 
We have we battle in the battle 

876
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,480
in the square of public ideas, 
and I think we have a good 

877
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,080
product. 
And I think unfortunately many 

878
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,640
of these groups are disappearing
and it's not a good thing. 

879
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,800
I don't think we should be happy
about it through intermarriage, 

880
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,200
through assimilation, lack of 
caring. 

881
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:33,320
But as long as we have other 
types of Jews, I think we should

882
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,040
treasure them for what we are. 
We're a people. 

883
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,880
Yeah, I agree. 
And as Safari Jews, you know, we

884
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,280
always grew up with that. 
You know you have the guy next 

885
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,120
to you who drives the Shulan 
Shabbat and the other guy next 

886
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,240
to you wears a Black Hat who's a
hassid even. 

887
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,400
And you don't really see other 
than Habad, you don't really see

888
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,840
any any groups interacting with 
the other. 

889
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,720
I think that what we, what I 
actually want to advocate for 

890
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,160
and what we're trying to do on 
the podcast as well is to, you 

891
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,000
know, humanize these other 
groups like they are part of 

892
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,480
our, like you mentioned, they're
part of our nation. 

893
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,760
And now post war, post October 
7th, Judaism, we kind of have 

894
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,480
to, you know, wake up a little 
bit and kind of change our 

895
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,480
attitude. 
It doesn't mean we have to, like

896
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,440
you said, accept their beliefs, 
but it's very rare to find, you 

897
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,480
know, a Modern Orthodox rabbi 
invited to speak in a Aridi 

898
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,160
shul. 
But you'll have a Modern 

899
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,280
Orthodox shul bring a Haridi 
rabbi to speak in. 

900
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,800
And I actually would like to see
a conversation like I don't know

901
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,280
if you know Rabbi Mark Gallop, 
you know, one of the best Jewish

902
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,240
interviewers. 
I think he's Reform even. 

903
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,280
And he, he would interview 
everyone from from Rabbi Mark 

904
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:47,080
Angel to Rabbi Sachs to Meri 
Kahana, I mean the who's who and

905
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,800
from completely different areas.
And I think that was, to me, 

906
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,640
that was very nice to see 
because, you know, not often I 

907
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,960
get to hear a conversation 
between a Reform rabbi and an 

908
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,360
Orthodox rabbi. 
They're not going to persuade us

909
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,400
in one way, one way or another. 
But having a conversation could 

910
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,000
only benefit the society as a 
whole. 

911
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,840
I I think that's. 
What you said, you said a lot of

912
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,640
important things. 
I'll just add one thing as well.

913
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,480
You didn't mention, but you talk
about Sephardic communities. 

914
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,080
Look at the astronauts, the 
world, you know how many 

915
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,840
khairums, Khairum against this 
and that other than Espinoza and

916
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,400
maybe in Syria you had a Khairum
in Aleppo against there's a 

917
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,640
there's an period but other than
that, you know you don't have 

918
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,640
that in the sphartic world. 
The issue with the Khairum is a 

919
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:35,040
difficult one because at the end
of the day, although it would be

920
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,320
very nice for them to invite the
Modern Orthodox rabbis, they 

921
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,680
fundamentally don't accept the 
legitimacy of the Modern 

922
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,840
Orthodox approach and their 
whole lifestyle and way of 

923
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,800
thinking is that is is not like 
the Modern Orthodox I I did 

924
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,840
classes on the Satan Marebi. 
We wanna understand everyone 

925
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,960
doesn't mean we agree with them 
but they don't believe in a 

926
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,360
public setting of giving 
legitimacy to people who 

927
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,520
religious leaders who don't 
share their Hashka FA. 

928
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,600
So I don't really know how you 
break that down to the idea of a

929
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,440
debate. 
We would love to have a debate. 

930
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,000
You get people together but they
don't believe in that. 

931
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,240
It's just a different philosophy
and I don't know how you can 

932
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:18,240
change that so you're never 
gonna get. 

933
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,280
It's a common theme. 
You know every year when I was 

934
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,560
growing up the Lakewood yeshiva 
would come to my town there'd be

935
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:28,040
a breakfast for them and raise 
money for the some school in 

936
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,280
Lakewood. 
But they they would never do the

937
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,240
same in Lakewood for one of our 
schools that that's that's just 

938
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:35,600
the way it is. 
And you have to. 

939
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,320
So if you don't wanna give any 
money to one of these 

940
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,560
institutions, like what? 
Saying 'cause it's there's no 

941
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:42,320
reciprocity, OK, that's one 
approach. 

942
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,440
Or you can sort of, I guess, be 
a bigger person and say that you

943
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,880
can recognize that other 
institutions, even to the right,

944
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,240
if you still have value, even 
while acknowledging that they 

945
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:57,360
will not see the same about your
institutions, the at least not 

946
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,520
the same to raise money. 
They might think that they have 

947
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,160
value to prevent, you know, us 
from assimilating that sort of 

948
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,160
thing. 
That's just the reality. 

949
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,000
And I I guess that's the 
definition of being a liberal in

950
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,120
this sense. 
I think we should all be 

951
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,400
liberal, that we can have 
tolerance for those who are not 

952
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,400
as tolerant to us. 
That's at least the path I've 

953
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,680
chosen to lead my life, I. 
Think Modern Orthodox is 

954
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:26,040
probably the the path that 
allows for that in a way because

955
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:31,280
we we do, for example, respect 
the Haredi leadership and the 

956
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,320
bit Dean and so on. 
Sure, Shivan pony Matora mine 

957
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,320
Mython Oxy believes there's 
different paths the Haradi 

958
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:39,680
world. 
The big problem is that they 

959
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,200
forgot the net. 
And although there's different 

960
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,880
paths in the Haradi world, but 
it seems that each Haradi seems 

961
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,720
to have that this is the Das 
Torah. 

962
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:50,040
That's that's a problem. 
Look, there's much we could 

963
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,600
criticize about the Haredi 
world, but we also have to 

964
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,400
acknowledge all the positives. 
Just like there's much you can 

965
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,200
criticize about the modern 
orthox world, there's some stuff

966
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,480
in the Haredi world which is 
outstanding, absolutely 

967
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,120
outstanding, which the modern 
orthox world doesn't even get 

968
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,440
close to that. 
On the other hand, there's much 

969
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,600
that we can criticize in the 
Haredi world. 

970
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:13,760
So no, no side is perfect. 
And Haredi rabbis recognize 

971
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,120
this, and privately they will 
talk about this to you. 

972
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:18,400
They talk about it to me all the
time. 

973
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,880
It's just it's hard in a public 
setting for them to do that. 

974
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,000
And so you have to accept that 
that's just their approach. 

975
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,960
They have a different approach. 
Like we were talking about in 

976
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,960
the beginning, I was just 
thinking that people are, they 

977
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,160
call the shots, which is how it 
works. 

978
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,160
Actually. 
We did a podcast with This is 

979
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,960
reminding me of that interview 
we did with Alex Gutman and we 

980
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,000
were discussing the voodoo. 
We called it Voodoo Judaism. 

981
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,240
But a lot of stuff that just 
starts to kind of appear within 

982
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:51,880
Orthodox circles, which is like 
Schlisselhala and all these 

983
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,680
strange practices. 
But the rabbis really, they, 

984
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,480
they kind of have to like accept
these things because they just 

985
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,880
creep in and everyone starts 
doing it and then it becomes 

986
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,280
very popular and it's just hard 
to stop it. 

987
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,720
And the conclusion of that 
conversation was that it's not 

988
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:09,160
going to come from the rabbis. 
These kind of these things have 

989
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,640
to be stopped. 
Well, what you're saying, it 

990
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,400
seems to be what's going on in 
Israel now. 

991
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,320
There seems to be. 
Look, every time you have a war 

992
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,240
like big event like this, we 
don't know how society changes 

993
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:22,120
afterwards. 
And you have now thousands of 

994
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:23,760
Haradian. 
I'm told these are not like the 

995
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,240
losers, the ones hanging out in 
Ben Yehuda, the Shabab Nikim, 

996
00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:29,280
that these are real Shiva 
students who have entered the 

997
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,360
army. 
You're having lots of people in 

998
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,560
the army and Haradi society 
looking around and seeing that, 

999
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,240
you know, our mothers are going 
to sleep. 

1000
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:39,800
They're fine. 
Our life continues as normal and

1001
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,480
yet funerals are going on every 
day. 

1002
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,480
Someone I know his son-in-law 
was killed to just today and I 

1003
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,720
watched the funeral. 
This is going it could touch to 

1004
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:50,280
the core Hari society and there 
are rabbis. 

1005
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,600
There are young people Rishiwa 
Feffer and others. 

1006
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,920
If you have an interview to me 
certainly a good interview a 

1007
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,400
leading Haridi thinker there 
from the younger generation 

1008
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,240
arguing that we need to make a 
change. 

1009
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,000
So if the there if the people 
may and you know by the way this

1010
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,440
is a problem in Hari. 
There's the leadership. 

1011
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,400
Yeah, the leadership in Haridi 
society, you hear me? 

1012
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,840
Yeah, yeah. 
What was his name? 

1013
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:12,880
You said the. 
Name of that well. 

1014
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:19,160
Shua Feffer PFEFFAR. 
He's has a magazine and his they

1015
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,640
call him Haredi light. 
But I mean this is this seems to

1016
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,960
be the direction that much of 
the haredi community certainly 

1017
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,320
American style. 
Haredi as well live in Israel 

1018
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:29,080
but you know that something's a 
brew. 

1019
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,560
How do you know that? 
Because we've had all sorts of 

1020
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:36,120
extreme crazy statements by 
Haredi Russia Shiva leaders in 

1021
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,120
the last few weeks. 
How you you Shiva students 

1022
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,280
should not have anything to do 
with the army. 

1023
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,800
You shouldn't go to funerals. 
You shouldn't even visit sold 

1024
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,800
injured soldiers, you know, 
extreme crazy stuff. 

1025
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:51,160
They see that the ground is 
shifting and they're trying to 

1026
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,400
keep the ghetto walls up there 
and trying to. 

1027
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:59,160
So that's a sign that and things
are changing and what's going to

1028
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,480
happen is that the people on the
ground will change it. 

1029
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:03,240
You're never going to have a 
complete change. 

1030
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:04,800
There'll be different 
communities, but you're going to

1031
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,200
have, I think, the development 
of a different style. 

1032
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,760
Haridim, we'll call them Haridi 
who work, or Haridi Seonim, 

1033
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,080
whatever you want to call them. 
People who want to be part of 

1034
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,320
society. 
And the rabbis will emerge 

1035
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,480
because the communities will 
appoint the rabbis. 

1036
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,040
And we've seen this again and 
again. 

1037
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,560
We've seen this with the Hasidic
movement. 

1038
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,600
We've seen this with the Roja 
Zionists movement. 

1039
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,320
You think Roja Zionists had, you
know, they had to find rabbis 

1040
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:28,720
also for many of their 
communities. 

1041
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,120
We've seen it with also. 
We've seen it again and again. 

1042
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,440
And this is just the. 
Anti Zionism. 

1043
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,960
The Anti Zionism of a lot of 
those communities is also gonna.

1044
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:40,920
I mean obviously. 
The communities are not anti 

1045
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:44,760
Zionists. 
They all the people forget what 

1046
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,840
the rabbis say. 
The rabbis speak a language. 

1047
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,080
Sometimes those are the people. 
The typical Haradi in Israel 

1048
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,680
feels connected to the state of 
Israel. 

1049
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,720
It's his country, it's his. 
He can he connects to it. 

1050
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,760
And so they practically they 
already are Zionism. 

1051
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,480
What does Zionism mean? 
Zionism's ideology to create a 

1052
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,240
state. 
The state's already there, So 

1053
00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:05,240
what? 
I mean Zionism. 

1054
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:07,720
Everyone who lives there is 
connected to the state. 

1055
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:11,080
The issue isn't Zionism. 
Yes, the Haredian have problems 

1056
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,000
with symbols of the state, you 
know, things like that. 

1057
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:20,840
But practically you know they 
they live many of them as with 

1058
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,440
the with the exception of going 
to the army which is the big one

1059
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,320
they live as part they they feel
connected to the the state of 

1060
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:32,160
Israel. 
Look they know that what anti 

1061
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,920
Zionism you get someone in 
America some politician to to 

1062
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,000
Talib or something and anti 
Zionist they know it's 

1063
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:42,000
anti-Semitism they they so 
there's gonna be changes reforms

1064
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,000
with a small R remember the 
reforms of Hirsch the firms we 

1065
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,320
either talk about you have to 
sing as she reforms with a small

1066
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,680
R and reforms with a large R 
we've always had reforms of 

1067
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,800
Judaism we kind. 
We kind of have this discussion.

1068
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:53,800
We've had this debate. 
Yeah, because I also have 

1069
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,200
relatives in Israel somewhere, 
not religious, who used to be 

1070
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,600
haraidi, let's say and went off 
the darek or whatever it is and 

1071
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,520
they're like saying the 
opposite. 

1072
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,160
No, it's not. 
Nothing's changing. 

1073
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:07,920
We spoke to last few days ago, 
we spoke to Rabbi Slifkin and he

1074
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,480
was saying the the changes are 
it's it's so minute and it's so 

1075
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:12,960
small. 
He was kind of downplaying it. 

1076
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,880
I kind of believe that myself, 
but I'm hoping that he's not. 

1077
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:18,720
The positive, I'm. 
The positive, Yeah. 

1078
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,600
Yeah. 
Listen, I don't know. 

1079
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,040
I don't live there. 
I can just tell you what I'm 

1080
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,000
reading, what I'm hearing. 
They're saying that, and we 

1081
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:26,440
don't know. 
None of us knows. 

1082
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,280
Is everything gonna go back to 
normal like it was before 

1083
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,280
October 7th? 
It's hard to imagine that. 

1084
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,520
I mean, Jews are being buried 
every single day. 

1085
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,200
And the Kharadi world has to 
look at this. 

1086
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,440
They there has to be a Hezbollah
nefesh, as we say, A reckoning 

1087
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,640
of how, again, it's not just the
army. 

1088
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,200
If you live in a Kharadi 
settlement and there are in the 

1089
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,240
West Bank, you have some 
settlements you don't, you have,

1090
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,040
you don't do your own guard 
duty. 

1091
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,080
I had a person on one of my 
tours in the summer was 

1092
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,840
complaining that Pesach night, 
his son couldn't be at Seder 

1093
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:01,720
because he was at one of these 
Scar 80 places. 

1094
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,200
He was guarding them. 
Why can't they guard themselves,

1095
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:08,760
this idea that they can't carry 
a gun, you know, that that that 

1096
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,920
they're not well, well, where 
did they get this thing from? 

1097
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,960
I think they're going to have to
step up, especially with their, 

1098
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,040
you know, population. 
And I don't know if it 

1099
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,200
necessarily means in the army 
for men, most of them, but 

1100
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,200
national service, there has to 
be something there. 

1101
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,640
There has to be some involvement
more. 

1102
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,240
And I think most of them are 
going to recognize this or many 

1103
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,000
of them are, look, we could be 
wrong. 

1104
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,720
It could go back to the way it 
was before. 

1105
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:37,280
But what I think is very, very 
interesting and maybe I'm wrong 

1106
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,680
about this, but this is just the
general feeling I have. 

1107
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,400
I feel like this the times we're
in right now like a figure, like

1108
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:48,200
Rabbi Sacks is sorely missing. 
But I feel like there's no like 

1109
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,920
voice coming from the rabbi is 
that that is just like 

1110
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:52,560
inspiring. 
I'm not talking about just 

1111
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:54,440
shirim. 
Like all you hear is like the 

1112
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,240
gogu, my gogu shirim and then or
you hear the, you know, you hear

1113
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,240
the the the ultra caridi 
approach or you hear you know 

1114
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,200
things talking rabbits talking 
about politics but inspirational

1115
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:10,800
kind of messages and also kind 
of paving the way for a post 

1116
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,520
October 7th Judaism. 
I don't hear those 

1117
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:15,280
conversations. 
I feel like there's a big lack 

1118
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,320
and actually I'm noticing that 
the people are actually the ones

1119
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:20,920
like for example today and. 
That's. 

1120
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:21,880
What counts? 
Yeah. 

1121
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:23,680
And I'm listening. 
You know, I'm, I find myself 

1122
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,360
listening to a lot of, you know,
people who are, let's say, for 

1123
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,320
example, comedians, Jewish can 
be like AMI Kozak. 

1124
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,560
I find myself listening to him 
more than I do to certain 

1125
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,880
rabbis. 
Or I listen to, you know, some 

1126
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,560
influencer and the people are 
speaking up and like it's almost

1127
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,280
it's interesting because in the 
world that we're living in 

1128
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,960
today, the people are becoming 
the brands in a way and they 

1129
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:49,160
have a lot of influence and and 
it's no longer just the rabbi 

1130
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,440
who has a voice. 
It's very interesting what's 

1131
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,800
happening. 
Yeah, I but there are some and 

1132
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:54,880
some will emerge. 
I don't know. 

1133
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,800
If you listen over to Mayor 
Soloveitchik, who certainly 

1134
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,000
presents a very he's a public 
intellect, maybe the leading, 

1135
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:05,960
certainly the leading rabbi, 
public intellectual, and one of 

1136
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:07,560
the leading Jewish public 
intellectuals. 

1137
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,840
But we have, we have many 
columnists and other speakers. 

1138
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,400
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a 
wider range, obviously. 

1139
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:14,640
I don't want to say. 
All of them. 

1140
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,680
Obviously we have we have our 
own personal rabbit, Rabbit 

1141
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,040
Maroof. 
He's phenomenal. 

1142
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,920
You know he's just he's really 
he's so understanding of he's so

1143
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:24,440
sensitive to the times that 
we're in. 

1144
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,000
And also Rabbi Yonatan Halevy is
somebody who who we really have.

1145
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,280
Yeah. 
They're saying, look, you're 

1146
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,840
comparing Rabbi Sachs. 
This is a once in a you know 

1147
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,120
well maybe in a century type of 
figure. 

1148
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,120
You've had a lot of chief rabbis
in England. 

1149
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,000
No one was like him. 
He was the he was the rabbi. 

1150
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,240
Not just to the Jews in England,
to the non Jews. 

1151
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:47,080
I mean he was a a moral 
spokesman someone who could we 

1152
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,040
we miss his voice right now. 
Oh, do we miss his voice to 

1153
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:54,080
speak to the world about the the
morality of what's happening and

1154
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:59,040
the immorality of of the 
progressive outlook. 

1155
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,800
We really miss his voice on the 
world stage. 

1156
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,560
And I think we're gonna do, 
we're the ref generation. 

1157
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:06,160
We're gonna, we're gonna 
appreciate. 

1158
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,640
I think people will appreciate 
Rabbi Sacks in the century from 

1159
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:10,320
now. 
I think he's just one of he's 

1160
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,880
gonna be one of he's just so 
underrated right now. 

1161
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:15,920
But. 
Well, he people will read him. 

1162
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,000
People will read him. 
In a century from now, most so 

1163
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,320
that's most rabbis will not be 
read but he's one. 

1164
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,160
He had an enormous impact and 
look, I knew him personally, so 

1165
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,280
but yeah, these are great. 
Figures. 

1166
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,000
What was that? 
What was that experience like? 

1167
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,920
I always love to hear a good 
Rabbi Sack story. 

1168
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:35,800
Well, I'll tell you a good Rabbi
Sack story. 

1169
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:42,280
I told it in in my class as 
well, though that, so I came to 

1170
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,720
England to speak actually at 
his, you know, a show right near

1171
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,320
where he was living. 
So he asked me to come see him. 

1172
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:51,600
We had corresponded before that,
but that was the first time I 

1173
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:57,120
met him and he would talk a lot.
He didn't listen so much. 

1174
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:01,760
He talked, but so he said to me 
he like first. 

1175
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,120
He began by saying I he he 
reviewed my book on Rabbi 

1176
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:06,760
Weinberg and he he read all my 
stuff. 

1177
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,000
He liked it very much. 
He even read my blog post, the 

1178
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,400
swearing blog, which really gets
into the weeds. 

1179
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:16,960
He said to me, but now it's time
for me to, he said he said to 

1180
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:18,160
me. 
I didn't ask him, but he told 

1181
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:19,480
me. 
He says I want you to start 

1182
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:20,720
writing for the Wall Street 
Journal. 

1183
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:22,560
I want you to start writing for 
the New York Times. 

1184
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,440
I want you to bring your vision 
to the wider world. 

1185
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,680
In other words, he was telling 
me that I should be like him. 

1186
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,280
So on the one hand, it's a big 
compliment. 

1187
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,160
He thinks that I have something 
to say to the world, that I 

1188
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,880
should start writing like 
basically like Mayor Salvation, 

1189
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,840
who's writing for the Wall 
Street Journal every few months.

1190
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,480
The truth. 
But I said to her by sax, the 

1191
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,200
truth is that that's not my 
interest. 

1192
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,880
I'd rather write A blog post 
about some obscure rabbi from 

1193
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,720
200 years ago that maybe 1000 
people find interesting than 

1194
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:52,280
write a piece. 
My daughter actually has had a 

1195
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,880
few pieces in the World Street 
Journal, so she gets 100,000. 

1196
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,920
You know, readers, not me, but 
what can you do? 

1197
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,120
That's not my interest. 
But he stressed the point. 

1198
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:05,240
He thought that there's a need 
for Jewish spokesman on the 

1199
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:08,560
wider in the wider world for the
the world at large. 

1200
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,120
And he thought that I had the 
talent, the ability, whatever I 

1201
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,520
might have the talent, I might 
not, but I certainly don't have 

1202
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,840
the desire. 
So I had to disappoint Rabbi 

1203
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,880
Sachs and I submitted one 
article after that maybe because

1204
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:22,880
he inspired me and the 
Washington Journal turn it down.

1205
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,960
So I said enough with that. 
I'm going back to the things I 

1206
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:27,720
do best. 
And. 

1207
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,040
But that I thought was 
interesting because you saw and 

1208
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,280
I'm sure by Sack said the same 
thing to many that was 

1209
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:36,560
significantly younger than 
probably 15 years ago. 

1210
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,400
I'm sure he said the same thing 
to a number of younger people, 

1211
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,640
that it's important for us to 
carry on, you know, 'cause he 

1212
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,080
believed, like Hirsch did, that 
Judaism is not just for the 

1213
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,720
Jews, that we have something to 
say to the world. 

1214
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:52,240
We're a universal religion. 
We have universal values and an 

1215
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:56,920
outlook and he didn't want to be
the only person out there. 

1216
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:02,880
So that's that was my that's my 
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks story that 

1217
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,280
I like to repeat. 
The things that he was saying 

1218
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:08,520
also just a few years ago about 
the mutating virus of 

1219
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,480
anti-Semitism, it's so relevant 
today. 

1220
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:13,840
It's just like he's it's almost 
prophetic, this stuff he was 

1221
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:14,880
saying. 
He has a great. 

1222
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:19,440
Yes, he saw. 
He saw before many others the 

1223
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:23,280
the, the, the dangers of 
multiculturalism and the. 

1224
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,320
The. 
Populism the the division into 

1225
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:30,320
the that the you know the Jew as
the oppressor and that the the 

1226
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:35,560
so-called liberation means 
liberation from the Jew as well.

1227
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,320
The twisting of the right 
becomes wrong. 

1228
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,760
He saw that before it became 
obvious to everyone else. 

1229
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:46,240
Amazing. 
Before we go, and this has been 

1230
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:52,440
an amazing conversation we 
wanted to get, if you can tell 

1231
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:55,760
us a little bit about your 
interactions with Hakam Fawr. 

1232
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,880
He's also someone who's 
important to us in the podcast. 

1233
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:03,280
We we have a lot of affinity for
for Hakam Fawr and we and you 

1234
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,640
mentioned to us before we came 
on that you had a certain 

1235
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,960
relationship with him. 
We just wanted to know if you 

1236
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,120
can say a few words on that. 
Sure. 

1237
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:16,000
My my relationship was almost 
exclusively via e-mail. 

1238
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,560
I I wrote a piece a little 
booklet on Shaul Lieberman Seul 

1239
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,600
Lieberman the Orthodox, and at 
the end of it I dealt with the 

1240
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,040
controversy with Rabbi Faur in 
his community, which was very 

1241
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:28,480
similar to what I wrote about 
Lieberman. 

1242
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:33,080
Namely he was teaching at the 
JTS and Juicy Oju seminary and 

1243
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,880
some of the more right wing 
rabbis thought that that would 

1244
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,960
have that possled him that made 
him Pasul to teach in the Syrian

1245
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:42,200
community. 
So that was a bit of a a 

1246
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,640
controversy in the Syrian world 
and I touched on it and later I 

1247
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:49,800
published more documents on this
matter and throughout that I 

1248
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:53,480
then I was in communication with
Rabbi Fatwur just discussing 

1249
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,440
these matters and then he 
invited me to come visit him. 

1250
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:00,400
He would spend the summers down 
at the Jersey Shore, Oakhurst, 

1251
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,960
Elberon, one of those towns. 
So we spent the entire morning 

1252
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,880
together, and that's where I 
could say I I got it from the 

1253
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:10,280
horse's mouth, as it were, about
his life, his time in Lakewood, 

1254
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:13,320
his outlook, his experiences. 
He was such a special, 

1255
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,000
interesting person. 
I don't share a number of his 

1256
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,640
views. 
I actually think that some of 

1257
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:23,440
his judgments of the Ashkenazics
ages are a little bit askewed. 

1258
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:28,240
But he was such a unique 
individual, and I learned so 

1259
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:33,200
much from him, his writings and 
what can I say, a great loss. 

1260
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,080
So these are giants, these 
people, and we don't appreciate 

1261
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,440
them sometimes when they're 
here. 

1262
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,880
And we miss them, though, when 
we see what we miss when they're

1263
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,200
not here. 
And I think I have more stuff. 

1264
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,600
I think I have, yes. 
I have another document I 

1265
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:52,680
haven't yet published relating 
to the fatwa controversy, Rabbi 

1266
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,560
Hakamatu Babadi. 
He was a businessman, but he was

1267
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,440
a huge tomahawk home, One of the
leading rabbinic figures in the 

1268
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:02,960
Syrian community. 
He was one of the big backers of

1269
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,120
Fatwar. 
Zach Fatwar took him to meet 

1270
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,880
Sean Lieberman, who was, I guess
Fatwar's other rebbe. 

1271
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:11,520
If you want to call him that. 
And one thing I confirm with 

1272
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,840
Fatwar, you might be interested.
He was such a close student to 

1273
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:16,720
Reviron Cutler. 
He was. 

1274
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,160
He went to Nightwood and he 
writes about it. 

1275
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:23,920
Actually he and Navarro and even
came and when I thought were 

1276
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:25,480
open to yeshiva, he was a young 
man. 

1277
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:27,840
He was in his late 20s, He 
opened to yeshiva in Flatbush. 

1278
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:30,800
Navarro and Cutler came in the 
late 50s, came and spoke there. 

1279
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,600
But when Navarro died, they 
asked Fatour to be one of the 

1280
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:37,760
people to carry the coffin. 
They heard that from someone and

1281
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:40,800
I didn't know if it was true. 
And I asked Fatour and he said 

1282
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:42,520
yes, he was one of the people 
that carried it. 

1283
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:49,640
So that just shows you how how 
respected he was then in the in 

1284
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,800
the literature world. 
However later on look he went to

1285
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:54,600
the seminary to make a living 
make up on us. 

1286
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,640
So like the seminary has always 
been filled with Orthodox 

1287
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:01,120
individuals and there were 
people for either. 

1288
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:02,960
I don't want to get into the 
politics. 

1289
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,800
So whether it was for you, look,
he Fowler would have Shirim and 

1290
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:08,640
the place would be smiled 
everyone would come here. 

1291
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,600
So from his side this is all 
about jealousy. 

1292
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:15,960
You know here is or he's the 
most popular teacher and the 

1293
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:19,479
other rabbis are not as popular.
So that on the other side and 

1294
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:23,479
the other rabbis and the the 
side of the other rabbis was 

1295
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:27,640
that despite his brilliance he 
was teaching at a non orthodox 

1296
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,200
institution and therefore we 
can't have that in our 

1297
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:31,760
communities. 
Even if he's personally 

1298
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,120
observant, we can't have someone
like that teaching for us. 

1299
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:40,760
So it became a bit of a a ball 
gun and for him and he suffered 

1300
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:42,319
on account of this, definitely, 
yeah. 

1301
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,560
And it was unfortunate. 
And I have letters, private 

1302
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:48,920
letters back and forth between 
him and his opponents which 

1303
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:51,520
shows the bad blood. 
And it's it's really unfortunate

1304
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:55,880
and what can you do though? 
Yeah, it's very unfortunate. 

1305
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:00,279
And, you know, sometimes you 
could just look at somebody 

1306
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:03,080
who's like a pose like that for 
really a silly reason. 

1307
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,760
You realize that maybe it's a 
badge of honor you know that 

1308
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:12,640
that they kind of excommunicate 
him because he he he was a very 

1309
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:16,200
important person and his 
writings are unbelievable and 

1310
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:20,760
they're so there's it's just so 
it saddens me that you know 

1311
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:26,359
people don't have knowledge 
about his books and you know we 

1312
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:28,800
especially at you know we're not
we weren't connected to him 

1313
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,840
directly but we have indirect 
connections to him through 

1314
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,439
people in our community, Robby 
Tone and his family. 

1315
01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:40,160
And I really, really hope that 
you know with your help, with 

1316
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,439
your articles and everything 
that you write that he will you 

1317
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:45,479
know get his his due. 
Yep. 

1318
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:48,160
But I do have to say that, and I
didn't. 

1319
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,200
I had too much coverage, so I 
didn't say it to him. 

1320
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:52,760
I do think that there's certain 
problems and things. 

1321
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:54,360
He writes for example his whole 
notion. 

1322
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:57,800
I mean he by very interesting. 
He rejects the whole idea that 

1323
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:02,840
Averoism philosophy led to the 
conversions in Spain, which I I 

1324
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:04,600
I think that's a difficult 
position. 

1325
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,720
But what I would have said to 
him, but I I had too much cavode

1326
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:10,880
is I think he speaks 
disrespectfully. 

1327
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:12,840
He has an article about certain 
Ashkenazi rabbi. 

1328
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:14,440
So for instance he has an 
article there called 

1329
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:18,360
Antimaanidium demons and here 
he's speaking about these. 

1330
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:21,840
I speak about Ashkenazi speaking
about the Rambon and he speaks 

1331
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:23,920
Rush. 
Rush is an Ashkenazi. 

1332
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:28,560
Look we can't he's a great man 
and sometimes people who are 

1333
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:33,840
great people they they they call
the Rita Dorita when they get 

1334
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:37,440
involved in things They at the 
end of the day though he's not 

1335
01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:39,680
living in medieval times you 
can't speak about the rush or 

1336
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,880
Russia didn't feel this way and 
you can't speak about Nahmanalis

1337
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,480
this way. 
So I feel that he went overboard

1338
01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:50,400
sometimes in his, and I think 
it's, I think it's unfortunate 

1339
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,200
because it casts a poll over 
some of his writings and some 

1340
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:56,240
people who would benefit and 
would learn a lot because they 

1341
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:59,440
might see some of these things, 
they might not look. 

1342
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:01,160
At. 
It, yeah. 

1343
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:03,280
And that's. 
Look, everyone I've I've written

1344
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:05,160
things that I regret. 
I shouldn't have phrased it a 

1345
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:09,680
certain way So it's it's a it's 
a big problem though because if 

1346
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:13,320
these people should recognize 
that there's so much there and 

1347
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,800
look if everyone you read every 
writer there's going to be 

1348
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:18,240
things that this so they. 
Yes there are things in thought 

1349
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,960
were I would have told him if I 
was his editor put it there a 

1350
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:27,760
little differently but and I do 
think he his you know his view 

1351
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:31,160
of the Ashkenazi. 
We're not all you know I think 

1352
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:34,920
all the good is not found among 
the sardine let's put it that 

1353
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:40,520
way But look I I was great 
admirer if I were 100% but you 

1354
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,600
know he wasn't a rebbe and he 
didn't he didn't want Hasidim. 

1355
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,680
That's he I told him that 
certain things I disagreed with 

1356
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:50,520
him when I met him that time he 
didn't want you just to follow 

1357
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,760
him that's that's a rebbe. 
He, he wanted you to look at his

1358
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,440
writings and if you disagreed 
with him, you know, dispute him 

1359
01:11:57,440 --> 01:11:59,360
in print and he would respond 
back and. 

1360
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:04,880
But where do you find someone 
who's an expert in the Talmud, 

1361
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:08,520
in the Rambam, in all the shells
and shovels of the Sardi rabbis,

1362
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:11,920
from Salonika, from Syria, from 
Iraq, and also can write about 

1363
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:16,160
Derrida and Levinas and modern 
philosophy? 

1364
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:20,240
I mean the breath of and and I 
mean the breath is unbelievable.

1365
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:23,480
That's all I can say. 
Very, very well said. 

1366
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:27,280
This has been incredible. 
I I hope that we can have you on

1367
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:30,240
again. 
There's so many things that I'm 

1368
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:32,880
thinking as now that we've 
gotten to know you more, I have 

1369
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,360
a lot of thoughts of things that
we could do in the future. 

1370
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,120
We'll see. 
But we want to really thank you,

1371
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:41,520
great conversation. 
Thank you for your contribution 

1372
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:43,960
coming to our humble podcast. 
We really appreciate it. 

1373
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:46,360
OK. 
Well, I thank you for having me.

1374
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:47,600
You know, I didn't, I didn't 
realize. 

1375
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:51,640
I sort of, I sort of started 
waxing on and on with my views, 

1376
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:53,720
but you were sitting there 
listening. 

1377
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:55,880
So I will. 
So if it's of maybe if it's of 

1378
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:59,040
interest not just to you too to 
other people, then I'm happy to 

1379
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,920
do it. 
But Sofia Niestaiti, you see in 

1380
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,440
the Ashkenazic world, in my 
humble opinion, that's all that 

1381
01:13:04,440 --> 01:13:06,040
I said at least the second-half 
of the talk. 

1382
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,080
Thank you for having me and 
thank you. 

1383
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:10,800
Thank you. 
Bye. 

1384
01:13:11,440 --> 01:13:19,080
Bye, bye. 
Hey guys, thanks so much for 

1385
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:21,400
tuning into the Judaism 
Demystified podcast. 

1386
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,400
We really appreciate all your 
support and your feedback. 

1387
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:28,520
If you want to help us grow the 
podcast, keep spreading the 

1388
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,000
word. 
Share with your friends, family,

1389
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:32,520
or whoever you think would be 
interested. 

1390
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:36,840
We also opened a Patreon so you 
can become a patron. 

1391
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,880
Contribute any small amount 
you'd like, which would really 

1392
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:46,600
help us grow the show. 
Our Patreon is www.patreon.com 

1393
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,880
Judaism. 
Pretty easy to remember. 

1394
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,400
Thank you again and we hope to 
keep putting out great shows for

1395
01:13:53,400 --> 01:14:04,400
you guys. 
Before we go, we want to thank 

1396
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:08,880
our Patreon supporters by name. 
Those are the supporters that 

1397
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,920
are helping make this show 
happen because frankly, Bency 

1398
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:15,560
and I are full time workers who 
don't really have so much time 

1399
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:18,760
on our hands because we have 
families, we have kids, and it's

1400
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:22,680
just a passion project that got 
way bigger than we expected. 

1401
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:25,760
So we're dedicating more time to
this. 

1402
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:28,600
And obviously our production 
value up until this point hasn't

1403
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:32,800
been great considering that we 
filmed this in Benzy's basement 

1404
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:36,760
using a green screen and a 
crappy little microphone and not

1405
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:40,080
such great equipment to be 
honest, I'm sure you all realize

1406
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:43,240
that. 
So we are hoping to up our 

1407
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:48,520
quality and get better equipment
and part of that process is 

1408
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,160
going to be due to you guys, the
listeners and supporters. 

1409
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:57,480
If you go to our Patreon page, 
patreon.com/judaism, you will 

1410
01:14:57,480 --> 01:14:59,800
see all the different tiers of 
ways you can help us out. 

1411
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:03,120
So first of all, we want to 
thank our Super Patron Jordan 

1412
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:07,720
Carmeli, our Platinum Patron 
Craig Gordon, our Gold patrons 

1413
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:12,040
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Cohen, Travis Krueger, Vasily 

1414
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:18,320
Volkov, Silver patrons Ellen 
Fleischer, Daniel Maximov, Rabbi

1415
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,560
Penny Rosenthal, and Jeffrey 
Wasserman. 

1416
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:25,080
Thank you all for supporting the
show and we hope you guys enjoy.